February 6, 2023 • 17 mins
I don't often talk about my career before podcasting. But in today's special bonus episode, I had the excuse to do just that with Francis Kremer from the China Flexpat podcast. In our chat, recorded back in April 2022, we discuss some of the aspects of podcasting that intersect with my old life as a headhunter and career coach. I hope that some of it is useful, particularly if you're interested in switching careers, or building a personal brand. A big thanks to Francis for giving me permission to share this on the feed for Mosaic of China. The original full episode can be found at: https://podcasts.apple.com//podcast/87-self-marketing-and-improving-long-term-job-chances/id1514659021?i=1000556861365
Chapters 00:00 - Trailer & Intro 02:40 - Main Subscribe to the PREMIUM version, see the visuals, and/or follow the full transcript for this episode at: https://mosaicofchina.com/season-03-bonus-china-flexpat Join the community: Instagram https://instagram.com/oscology LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/company/mosaicofchina Facebook https://facebook.com/mosaicofchina WeChat https://mosaicofchina.com/wechat
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
[Trailer]OF: If you're not into networking, don't worry:
I'm not into networking, and I was a headhunter.
[Intro]OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China, a podcast
about people who are making their mark inChina.
I’m your host, Oscar Fuchs.
So today I'm including another bonus episodein the feed for Mosaic of China, this time
(00:24):
it's an edited version of an interview thatI did on another podcast called China Flexpat,
hosted by Francis Kremer.
This is a podcast for young internationalprofessionals who see themselves as 'flexible
expats', hence the term 'flexpat'.
I don't personally think of myself as an 'expat',since I'm not too keen on the connotations
(00:46):
of that particular word.
I don't actually see myself as all that flexiblethese days either, I'm probably much more
'stuck in my ways' than I used to be.
And yes before any of you say it first, I'malso neither young nor professional.
But Francis specifically asked me to comeon his show - all the way back in April of
(01:07):
last year - to talk about my experiences incareer reinvention and personal brand building,
with a particular focus on my previous lifeas a headhunter and career coach.
So I was very happy to oblige, and I hopeyou enjoy our chat, even though it's quite
difficult to a regular episode of Mosaic ofChina.
(01:30):
So why aren't I releasing a regular episodeof Mosaic of China?
Well, I've just come back from taking sometime off in January over the lunar new year
period here in China.
And I reached out to the person who is upnext in Episode 16 to let them know that I'm
coming back online.
At which point she reminded me that she hadplanned on taking some time off herself in
(01:54):
February.
The regular episodes of the show are all verycollaborative, so I can't actually put them
together without pinging messages back andforth with the guest.
And that's not very easy to do when the guestis doing three weeks of silent meditation
in Thailand!
I kid you not.
(02:14):
So Mosaic of China is going on it's own courseof silent meditation over the next few weeks,
and we’ll be back again probably in earlyMarch.
In the meantime, I daresay you might alsobe taking some time to reevaluate your priorities
at the start of the year.
If any of them involve some kind of careerreinvention, I hope this interview with Francis
(02:35):
gives you some inspiration on your way.
[Main]FK: Welcome to the China Flexpat podcast.
OF (02:46):
My name is Oscar Fuchs.
For the purposes of this podcast, I woulddescribe myself as an ex-entrepreneur.
I was the co-founder of a headhunting company,which specialised in the niche of Human Resources
Directors.
And this is what eventually brought me toChina, since we had been increasingly busy
in the market and it made sense to locateone of the co-founders here.
(03:09):
But in fact, I was the ultimate ‘flexpat’because by that stage in the growth of the
company, I had a global role which could havebeen located anywhere.
So it was almost an accident that I endedup being in China, here in Shanghai.
And yet, I've now been here for seven years.
Prior to that I had been three years in HongKong, six years in Singapore, and three years
(03:30):
in Japan.
Since selling my stake in that headhuntingcompany, I now focus my time on content creation,
in particular in producing and hosting a podcastcalled Mosaic of China, which is a project
that showcases interesting people from allkinds of different worlds - be it business,
or arts, or sports, or science, or academia,you name it - anyone who can offer an interesting
(03:52):
lens through which to observe and understandlife in China.
FK (03:55):
You were a headhunter, and a professional in this industry on how to change jobs and
transition jobs.
How did you get into headhunting yourself?
OF (04:03):
I had been working ten years before that in a variety of jobs, but mainly in the field
of research.
So firstly, it was market research for Japanesecompanies, policy research for the Japanese
government, and then later I was a conferenceproducer, where I was creating programmes
for commercial conferences.
I didn't produce the event itself, I producedthe content of the event.
(04:27):
So I would research a topic, I'd figure outthe feasibility of doing a conference on that
topic, I'd write the programme, and then Iwould invite the calibre of guests that would
attract companies to sponsor the programmeand then ultimately to attend as a delegate.
And that's what first took me to Singapore,where I was producing events for the Asia
Pacific region.
And it was in Singapore where I became a headhunter.
(04:48):
When you are changing careers, it is a loteasier to transition into something which
has some kind of overlap with your existingskills or interests.
So for me, I had a natural curiosity; I hadthe research skills to find speakers; I had
the interpersonal skills to convince themto be presenters at these conferences; and
then I had the organisational skills to handlethe running of these events.
(05:10):
So it wasn't a massive leap to go into headhunting,which requires a similar basket of skills.
Instead of researching topics, head huntingis more about researching people, their skills,
their motivations, you know.
Matching them not to a conference programme,but to a company who was looking to hire new
employees.
Later on when I was a headhunter, I wouldmeet people now and again who wanted to make
(05:32):
similar career shifts, but often without thinkingabout this overlap.
So for example, there could be an HR managerin a tech company in India who wanted to be
an HR director at a fashion brand in Singapore,for example.
And maybe that person in India could havebeen exceptionally good, and could have done
that job.
What I would say to that kind of person is,if you want to be a fashion HR person in Singapore,
(05:55):
then why don't you break it up into two separatemoves?
So either you could move into a fashion brandas an HR manager in India first, and then
try to engineer the geographical move afterthat.
Or you could try to focus on getting a rolein tech HR in Singapore first, and then engineer
a cross-industrial move after that.
(06:16):
It's a simple piece of advice.
But often people are a little bit too impatient.
They get focused on that big move - the Ato Z - rather than a couple of incremental
moves, that could be a more reasonable wayto reach the same objective.
And it sounds a little tedious and unadventurous,in a way.
But that's how I can say, I moved from teachingin Japan, to researching in London, to conferences
(06:42):
in Singapore, to headhunting in Hong Kong,and now to podcasting in Shanghai.
So it doesn't sound so boring and tediouswhen you say it like that.
But all of those were small increments thatin some way added up to something.
FK (06:55):
I was always dreaming of working in China.
But then I had to learn to take care of theengineering, not only the sales.
OF (07:01):
Yes.
FK (07:02):
And then I had to find a way to be working for a Chinese company.
I can totally relate to what you're saying,because it's not just one goal.
But within five years, you can actually reacha lot.
Guys like me - flexpats - how can they getinto the view of a headhunter?
OF (07:17):
My general advice would be try and do things without needing a headhunter.
This is the freedom I have to talk about thisbecause I'm no longer a headhunter.
The thing about headhunters is that therecan be some downsides, and that's because
of the way the markets generally are thesedays.
Headhunters can be a little bit inflexible.
A company will reach out to a headhunter oftenas a last resort.
(07:41):
It's because they've exhausted all the otheroptions.
So for example, they might ask their employeesfor referrals, or they might have an internal
recruiter who could go through sites likeLinkedIn.
It's only after all else fails do they go“Right, we can't find someone, let's use
a headhunter.”
So already, they have an expectation thatthe headhunter will have to be more exact
(08:05):
in terms of who they can put forward.
If you try, as a headhunter, to put someonewho is not the 10-out-of-10 candidate, then
often they will push back on you and say “Look,I'm paying you to find the exact right person.
Why are you giving me someone who I couldhave found myself on LinkedIn?
That is quite complicated.
And it gets harder if it is a senior rolein, let's say, an international company where
(08:27):
there is an international matrix of decisionmakers.
It can be a complex group of five or six stakeholders,all who need to agree.
So that limits even more the idea of someonewho is a little bit ‘out of the box' getting
a chance for that role.
And sometimes being a non-Chinese in China,for example, can mean that you are ‘out
of the box’.
FK (08:48):
Well, if headhunting is not the only option, then what else can you do to build a career
and to build long-lasting relationships?
OF (08:56):
Headhunters can be great, you need to be on-side with headhunters.
But use your network to develop your long-termchances of being found for roles by the employers
themselves.
It is a social skill.
Just like any other social skill, they areskills which you need to develop.
So first of all, if you're not into networking,don't worry: I'm not into networking, and
(09:19):
I was a headhunter.
So it is a skill that you can develop, you'vegot to push through the resistance and learn
the skill in a comfortable and authentic way.
You should keep an eye out on who the rightpeople are - you know, the friends of friends
- and work out which of these people you oughtto have a relationship with.
And then invite them to be LinkedIn.
(09:39):
Now, I would always personalise your LinkedIninvitations, never just send a link without
a message.
I personally never accept invitations withoutone.
And then when you are writing to them, maybeyou've seen a news article, or maybe you…
Just something personalised, when you writeit, so that they know it's not a group message
that you send to everyone.
(09:59):
And then build a relationship.
Don't do anything too quickly, just say “It'sgreat to be in touch, I hope that our paths
can reconnect in the future at some point.”
Maybe they'll reply, maybe they won't, itdoesn't matter.
And start thinking about posting your articleson LinkedIn.
Posting just small posts.
It could be a comment; it could be re-sharingan article that somebody else has written,
and just adding your own personal commentary;it could be writing a short piece yourself,
(10:24):
whenever the idea comes to you.
Just start to build a body of work.
And that's how you can start to build thisonline persona, and start to find your own
voice.
And don't do it inauthentically.
So if you have nothing to say, then don'tsay it.
And don't do it too much either, otherwiseyou'll give the impression that this is all
that you do.
Start with one sentence about you, and figureout “What one sentence can define who I
(10:49):
am?”
And then whenever you create some piece ofcontent, just make sure that it largely fits
into that persona.
And then that will create some kind of consistencywith the stuff that you post.
And as you grow, that definition of yourselfwill change.
You know, you don't need to stick to it anylonger than it defines you.
(11:09):
You know, that would be like a snake not beingable to shed its skin when it grows.
It's not supposed to suffocate you, it's supposedto inspire you to just create content.
Slowly, you will start to build some kindof brand.
When you do need a job, maybe what you'vedone over the past six months is, now and
(11:30):
again you have sent specific people linksto your posts, and said “Hi, as I was writing
this, I thought of you.”
Or just something which gives you an excuseto be in touch with them on a personal basis
now and again.
You know, these are just human beings.
These are not faceless corporate robots.
So wherever possible, you try to touch onthem, which then hopefully engages with them
(11:52):
on a personal level, defines who you are.
And because you're doing it when you're notasking for anything in return - you’re just
doing it in a way which is developing a relationship- then if you do meet them in real life, you
already may have developed this digital identitywith them beforehand.
Then you can say “Oh, you know what, I amstarting to look at options outside my company,
(12:12):
and you came to mind.
Why don't we have a quick coffee?”
FK (12:15):
In this whole world - LinkedIn especially, but not only LinkedIn, not only digital, but
also offline events, and so on - how can weflexpats really build a kind of a brand which
would then lead into differentiating ourselvesfrom Chinese professionals?
OF (12:32):
I would probably focus on soft skills.
They are the skills that help you to be persuasiveand consultative.
Saying “No” to someone senior is especiallyhard in places like China, where there are
strict hierarchical norms when addressingsomeone senior.
And by the way, it's even harder in Japanand Korea.
(12:54):
Knowing how to do that is differentiatingwhen it comes to a market like China.
You have to know how to use that power.
You can't be always the outlier, you haveto use that power sparingly.
FK (13:05):
The way that I'm working with my Chinese team is actually to tell them that they can
do this.
They can tell me what they like, and whatthey don't like.
And they can tell me how they would like tosolve a task.
And then I will tell them if that's okay forme, or what I would do instead.
And what I really want to know is their decision,in this case.
(13:26):
It takes a long time to train this mindset,to get people to think about what they want
themselves, and not just to do what the bossis saying.
I really enjoy this.
And I think it's a great opportunity to testyour leadership ability in China, where you
have this big cultural difference betweenthese two worlds, right?
(13:46):
The very direct - say, “You're wrong, andI'm telling why” - and the very indirect,
say “Well if you say so that must be right.”
I have to make a judgement.
If I don't make a judgement, then there isno value that I provide.
But if I make a judgement, I will make peopleunhappy.
OF (13:59):
You touched upon the next point that I was going to make, which is actually the cultural
adaptability piece.
You came to China a long time ago, then youwent back to your home country, and then you
came back to China, correct?
FK (14:10):
Exactly, exactly.
OF (14:11):
Right.
FK (14:12):
There were 12 years in between.
OF (14:13):
This is the same as me.
So I was first a teacher in Japan, and thenI did some work in my home country - that
was the UK - probably, I think, four/five/sixyears, something like that.
And then I came back, and I've been in Asiasince then.
When I went back to the UK and started workingin the UK, that was where I learned about
(14:34):
how things are done in my home culture.
I made plenty of mistakes.
It's how you then react to your mistakes,it’s just learning the ways that you do
business; the ways that you have responsibility…
FK (14:47):
Yes.
OF (14:48):
It's these fundamental cultural corporate skills.
There are those who come to China - it couldbe anywhere in the world, but let's say China
- and then from school they have a job, andnever work elsewhere.
If you're making these mistakes, and you'realready in another market, they are corrected
in different ways.
(15:08):
Or - you know what - sometimes these mistakescan go unnoticed entirely.
Because maybe as a foreigner or a ‘flexpat’sometimes you already have a job that's slightly
to one side of the rest of the company, andyou're slightly the anomaly, and it's quite
easy to go unnoticed.
The people who had never really had professionalexperience in their home countries, you know,
there's something a little bit off in theway that they do business, simply because
(15:31):
they do not have that cultural baseline bywhich to measure how far off their equilibrium
they were at any one point.
FK (15:38):
I think for me it's quite interesting that when I was going back to Germany, and
starting my career, I was kind of brutallystarting in sales.
So I was doing cold-calling for a senior guywho was ten years older than I am now.
And so he was telling me “Do the dirty work”.
So I would do it, and then he complains thatI'm not quick enough.
“Come on, do it yourself man!”
But then when I came to China, I had thisexperience of doing dirty work for a long
(16:00):
time.
And this is how I think we can differentiate.
Oscar, I really enjoy listening to your podcastMosaic of China.
And what I really like are the lots of differentstories about lifestyle in China, not only
careers and business.
So can you share a little bit more about whatyou do and what your mission is?
OF (16:19):
So yeah, what I try and do with Mosaic of China is a bit similar to what you do.
You're focusing just on business, but forme I broadened it to any kind of person.
Living through their story, and at the sametime, you learn a little bit about China.
And some people, their stories are very China-specific;and others just happen peripherally in China.
But with every single story, it offers a newlens on how to understand life in China, sometimes
(16:43):
by injecting serious topics, other times bybeing a little bit more cheeky and lighthearted,
but hopefully in a way that can educate andentertain.
FK (16:51):
Oscar, thank you so much for being with us today.
We learned a lot about transitioning fromone career stage to the next; working with
headhunters, but also doing it yourself, buildingyour own digital persona in order to get found
by potential employers, or make friends whocan help you later in your career.
I also like what you shared about your podcastMosaic of China, and I hope that our audience
(17:16):
will tune in and have a look themselves, andconnect with you on LinkedIn.
So with this, thank you so much for beinghere on the show.
谢谢 [Xièxiè] and 再见 [zàijiàn]!
OF (17:24):
谢谢 [Xièxiè], 再见 [zàijiàn]!
[Trailer]OF: If you're not into networking, don't worry:
I'm not into networking, and I was a headhunter.
[Intro]OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China, a podcast
about people who are making their mark inChina.
I’m your host, Oscar Fuchs.
So today I'm including another bonus episodein the feed for Mosaic of China, this time
(00:24):
it's an edited version of an interview thatI did on another podcast called China Flexpat,
hosted by Francis Kremer.
This is a podcast for young internationalprofessionals who see themselves as 'flexible
expats', hence the term 'flexpat'.
I don't personally think of myself as an 'expat',since I'm not too keen on the connotations
(00:46):
of that particular word.
I don't actually see myself as all that flexiblethese days either, I'm probably much more
'stuck in my ways' than I used to be.
And yes before any of you say it first, I'malso neither young nor professional.
But Francis specifically asked me to comeon his show - all the way back in April of
(01:07):
last year - to talk about my experiences incareer reinvention and personal brand building,
with a particular focus on my previous lifeas a headhunter and career coach.
So I was very happy to oblige, and I hopeyou enjoy our chat, even though it's quite
difficult to a regular episode of Mosaic ofChina.
(01:30):
So why aren't I releasing a regular episodeof Mosaic of China?
Well, I've just come back from taking sometime off in January over the lunar new year
period here in China.
And I reached out to the person who is upnext in Episode 16 to let them know that I'm
coming back online.
At which point she reminded me that she hadplanned on taking some time off herself in
(01:54):
February.
The regular episodes of the show are all verycollaborative, so I can't actually put them
together without pinging messages back andforth with the guest.
And that's not very easy to do when the guestis doing three weeks of silent meditation
in Thailand!
I kid you not.
(02:14):
So Mosaic of China is going on it's own courseof silent meditation over the next few weeks,
and we’ll be back again probably in earlyMarch.
In the meantime, I daresay you might alsobe taking some time to reevaluate your priorities
at the start of the year.
If any of them involve some kind of careerreinvention, I hope this interview with Francis
(02:35):
gives you some inspiration on your way.
[Main]FK: Welcome to the China Flexpat podcast.
OF (02:46):
My name is Oscar Fuchs.
For the purposes of this podcast, I woulddescribe myself as an ex-entrepreneur.
I was the co-founder of a headhunting company,which specialised in the niche of Human Resources
Directors.
And this is what eventually brought me toChina, since we had been increasingly busy
in the market and it made sense to locateone of the co-founders here.
(03:09):
But in fact, I was the ultimate ‘flexpat’because by that stage in the growth of the
company, I had a global role which could havebeen located anywhere.
So it was almost an accident that I endedup being in China, here in Shanghai.
And yet, I've now been here for seven years.
Prior to that I had been three years in HongKong, six years in Singapore, and three years
(03:30):
in Japan.
Since selling my stake in that headhuntingcompany, I now focus my time on content creation,
in particular in producing and hosting a podcastcalled Mosaic of China, which is a project
that showcases interesting people from allkinds of different worlds - be it business,
or arts, or sports, or science, or academia,you name it - anyone who can offer an interesting
(03:52):
lens through which to observe and understandlife in China.
FK (03:55):
You were a headhunter, and a professional in this industry on how to change jobs and
transition jobs.
How did you get into headhunting yourself?
OF (04:03):
I had been working ten years before that in a variety of jobs, but mainly in the field
of research.
So firstly, it was market research for Japanesecompanies, policy research for the Japanese
government, and then later I was a conferenceproducer, where I was creating programmes
for commercial conferences.
I didn't produce the event itself, I producedthe content of the event.
(04:27):
So I would research a topic, I'd figure outthe feasibility of doing a conference on that
topic, I'd write the programme, and then Iwould invite the calibre of guests that would
attract companies to sponsor the programmeand then ultimately to attend as a delegate.
And that's what first took me to Singapore,where I was producing events for the Asia
Pacific region.
And it was in Singapore where I became a headhunter.
(04:48):
When you are changing careers, it is a loteasier to transition into something which
has some kind of overlap with your existingskills or interests.
So for me, I had a natural curiosity; I hadthe research skills to find speakers; I had
the interpersonal skills to convince themto be presenters at these conferences; and
then I had the organisational skills to handlethe running of these events.
(05:10):
So it wasn't a massive leap to go into headhunting,which requires a similar basket of skills.
Instead of researching topics, head huntingis more about researching people, their skills,
their motivations, you know.
Matching them not to a conference programme,but to a company who was looking to hire new
employees.
Later on when I was a headhunter, I wouldmeet people now and again who wanted to make
(05:32):
similar career shifts, but often without thinkingabout this overlap.
So for example, there could be an HR managerin a tech company in India who wanted to be
an HR director at a fashion brand in Singapore,for example.
And maybe that person in India could havebeen exceptionally good, and could have done
that job.
What I would say to that kind of person is,if you want to be a fashion HR person in Singapore,
(05:55):
then why don't you break it up into two separatemoves?
So either you could move into a fashion brandas an HR manager in India first, and then
try to engineer the geographical move afterthat.
Or you could try to focus on getting a rolein tech HR in Singapore first, and then engineer
a cross-industrial move after that.
(06:16):
It's a simple piece of advice.
But often people are a little bit too impatient.
They get focused on that big move - the Ato Z - rather than a couple of incremental
moves, that could be a more reasonable wayto reach the same objective.
And it sounds a little tedious and unadventurous,in a way.
But that's how I can say, I moved from teachingin Japan, to researching in London, to conferences
(06:42):
in Singapore, to headhunting in Hong Kong,and now to podcasting in Shanghai.
So it doesn't sound so boring and tediouswhen you say it like that.
But all of those were small increments thatin some way added up to something.
FK (06:55):
I was always dreaming of working in China.
But then I had to learn to take care of theengineering, not only the sales.
OF (07:01):
Yes.
FK (07:02):
And then I had to find a way to be working for a Chinese company.
I can totally relate to what you're saying,because it's not just one goal.
But within five years, you can actually reacha lot.
Guys like me - flexpats - how can they getinto the view of a headhunter?
OF (07:17):
My general advice would be try and do things without needing a headhunter.
This is the freedom I have to talk about thisbecause I'm no longer a headhunter.
The thing about headhunters is that therecan be some downsides, and that's because
of the way the markets generally are thesedays.
Headhunters can be a little bit inflexible.
A company will reach out to a headhunter oftenas a last resort.
(07:41):
It's because they've exhausted all the otheroptions.
So for example, they might ask their employeesfor referrals, or they might have an internal
recruiter who could go through sites likeLinkedIn.
It's only after all else fails do they go“Right, we can't find someone, let's use
a headhunter.”
So already, they have an expectation thatthe headhunter will have to be more exact
(08:05):
in terms of who they can put forward.
If you try, as a headhunter, to put someonewho is not the 10-out-of-10 candidate, then
often they will push back on you and say “Look,I'm paying you to find the exact right person.
Why are you giving me someone who I couldhave found myself on LinkedIn?
That is quite complicated.
And it gets harder if it is a senior rolein, let's say, an international company where
(08:27):
there is an international matrix of decisionmakers.
It can be a complex group of five or six stakeholders,all who need to agree.
So that limits even more the idea of someonewho is a little bit ‘out of the box' getting
a chance for that role.
And sometimes being a non-Chinese in China,for example, can mean that you are ‘out
of the box’.
FK (08:48):
Well, if headhunting is not the only option, then what else can you do to build a career
and to build long-lasting relationships?
OF (08:56):
Headhunters can be great, you need to be on-side with headhunters.
But use your network to develop your long-termchances of being found for roles by the employers
themselves.
It is a social skill.
Just like any other social skill, they areskills which you need to develop.
So first of all, if you're not into networking,don't worry: I'm not into networking, and
(09:19):
I was a headhunter.
So it is a skill that you can develop, you'vegot to push through the resistance and learn
the skill in a comfortable and authentic way.
You should keep an eye out on who the rightpeople are - you know, the friends of friends
- and work out which of these people you oughtto have a relationship with.
And then invite them to be LinkedIn.
(09:39):
Now, I would always personalise your LinkedIninvitations, never just send a link without
a message.
I personally never accept invitations withoutone.
And then when you are writing to them, maybeyou've seen a news article, or maybe you…
Just something personalised, when you writeit, so that they know it's not a group message
that you send to everyone.
(09:59):
And then build a relationship.
Don't do anything too quickly, just say “It'sgreat to be in touch, I hope that our paths
can reconnect in the future at some point.”
Maybe they'll reply, maybe they won't, itdoesn't matter.
And start thinking about posting your articleson LinkedIn.
Posting just small posts.
It could be a comment; it could be re-sharingan article that somebody else has written,
and just adding your own personal commentary;it could be writing a short piece yourself,
(10:24):
whenever the idea comes to you.
Just start to build a body of work.
And that's how you can start to build thisonline persona, and start to find your own
voice.
And don't do it inauthentically.
So if you have nothing to say, then don'tsay it.
And don't do it too much either, otherwiseyou'll give the impression that this is all
that you do.
Start with one sentence about you, and figureout “What one sentence can define who I
(10:49):
am?”
And then whenever you create some piece ofcontent, just make sure that it largely fits
into that persona.
And then that will create some kind of consistencywith the stuff that you post.
And as you grow, that definition of yourselfwill change.
You know, you don't need to stick to it anylonger than it defines you.
(11:09):
You know, that would be like a snake not beingable to shed its skin when it grows.
It's not supposed to suffocate you, it's supposedto inspire you to just create content.
Slowly, you will start to build some kindof brand.
When you do need a job, maybe what you'vedone over the past six months is, now and
(11:30):
again you have sent specific people linksto your posts, and said “Hi, as I was writing
this, I thought of you.”
Or just something which gives you an excuseto be in touch with them on a personal basis
now and again.
You know, these are just human beings.
These are not faceless corporate robots.
So wherever possible, you try to touch onthem, which then hopefully engages with them
(11:52):
on a personal level, defines who you are.
And because you're doing it when you're notasking for anything in return - you’re just
doing it in a way which is developing a relationship- then if you do meet them in real life, you
already may have developed this digital identitywith them beforehand.
Then you can say “Oh, you know what, I amstarting to look at options outside my company,
(12:12):
and you came to mind.
Why don't we have a quick coffee?”
FK (12:15):
In this whole world - LinkedIn especially, but not only LinkedIn, not only digital, but
also offline events, and so on - how can weflexpats really build a kind of a brand which
would then lead into differentiating ourselvesfrom Chinese professionals?
OF (12:32):
I would probably focus on soft skills.
They are the skills that help you to be persuasiveand consultative.
Saying “No” to someone senior is especiallyhard in places like China, where there are
strict hierarchical norms when addressingsomeone senior.
And by the way, it's even harder in Japanand Korea.
(12:54):
Knowing how to do that is differentiatingwhen it comes to a market like China.
You have to know how to use that power.
You can't be always the outlier, you haveto use that power sparingly.
FK (13:05):
The way that I'm working with my Chinese team is actually to tell them that they can
do this.
They can tell me what they like, and whatthey don't like.
And they can tell me how they would like tosolve a task.
And then I will tell them if that's okay forme, or what I would do instead.
And what I really want to know is their decision,in this case.
(13:26):
It takes a long time to train this mindset,to get people to think about what they want
themselves, and not just to do what the bossis saying.
I really enjoy this.
And I think it's a great opportunity to testyour leadership ability in China, where you
have this big cultural difference betweenthese two worlds, right?
(13:46):
The very direct - say, “You're wrong, andI'm telling why” - and the very indirect,
say “Well if you say so that must be right.”
I have to make a judgement.
If I don't make a judgement, then there isno value that I provide.
But if I make a judgement, I will make peopleunhappy.
OF (13:59):
You touched upon the next point that I was going to make, which is actually the cultural
adaptability piece.
You came to China a long time ago, then youwent back to your home country, and then you
came back to China, correct?
FK (14:10):
Exactly, exactly.
OF (14:11):
Right.
FK (14:12):
There were 12 years in between.
OF (14:13):
This is the same as me.
So I was first a teacher in Japan, and thenI did some work in my home country - that
was the UK - probably, I think, four/five/sixyears, something like that.
And then I came back, and I've been in Asiasince then.
When I went back to the UK and started workingin the UK, that was where I learned about
(14:34):
how things are done in my home culture.
I made plenty of mistakes.
It's how you then react to your mistakes,it’s just learning the ways that you do
business; the ways that you have responsibility…
FK (14:47):
Yes.
OF (14:48):
It's these fundamental cultural corporate skills.
There are those who come to China - it couldbe anywhere in the world, but let's say China
- and then from school they have a job, andnever work elsewhere.
If you're making these mistakes, and you'realready in another market, they are corrected
in different ways.
(15:08):
Or - you know what - sometimes these mistakescan go unnoticed entirely.
Because maybe as a foreigner or a ‘flexpat’sometimes you already have a job that's slightly
to one side of the rest of the company, andyou're slightly the anomaly, and it's quite
easy to go unnoticed.
The people who had never really had professionalexperience in their home countries, you know,
there's something a little bit off in theway that they do business, simply because
(15:31):
they do not have that cultural baseline bywhich to measure how far off their equilibrium
they were at any one point.
FK (15:38):
I think for me it's quite interesting that when I was going back to Germany, and
starting my career, I was kind of brutallystarting in sales.
So I was doing cold-calling for a senior guywho was ten years older than I am now.
And so he was telling me “Do the dirty work”.
So I would do it, and then he complains thatI'm not quick enough.
“Come on, do it yourself man!”
But then when I came to China, I had thisexperience of doing dirty work for a long
(16:00):
time.
And this is how I think we can differentiate.
Oscar, I really enjoy listening to your podcastMosaic of China.
And what I really like are the lots of differentstories about lifestyle in China, not only
careers and business.
So can you share a little bit more about whatyou do and what your mission is?
OF (16:19):
So yeah, what I try and do with Mosaic of China is a bit similar to what you do.
You're focusing just on business, but forme I broadened it to any kind of person.
Living through their story, and at the sametime, you learn a little bit about China.
And some people, their stories are very China-specific;and others just happen peripherally in China.
But with every single story, it offers a newlens on how to understand life in China, sometimes
(16:43):
by injecting serious topics, other times bybeing a little bit more cheeky and lighthearted,
but hopefully in a way that can educate andentertain.
FK (16:51):
Oscar, thank you so much for being with us today.
We learned a lot about transitioning fromone career stage to the next; working with
headhunters, but also doing it yourself, buildingyour own digital persona in order to get found
by potential employers, or make friends whocan help you later in your career.
I also like what you shared about your podcastMosaic of China, and I hope that our audience
(17:16):
will tune in and have a look themselves, andconnect with you on LinkedIn.
So with this, thank you so much for beinghere on the show.
谢谢 [Xièxiè] and 再见 [zàijiàn]!
OF (17:24):
谢谢 [Xièxiè], 再见 [zàijiàn]!
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