July 31, 2023 • 25 mins
This is a re-release of Season 01 Episode 14: The Aquarium Queen (Emily Madge, Asia Head of Conservation, Sea Life). Chapters 00:00 - Intro 02:20 - Part 1 18:28 - Part 2 Subscribe to the PREMIUM version, see the visuals, and/or follow the full transcript for this episode at: https://mosaicofchina.com/season-03-rerelease-emily-madge Join the community: Instagram https://instagram.com/oscology LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/company/mosaicofchina Facebook https://facebook.com/mosaicofchina WeChat https://mosaicofchina.com/wechat
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
[Intro]OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China, a podcast
about people who are making their mark inChina. I’m your host, Oscar Fuchs.
I received some great feedback after the lastepisode, which was the re-release of my original
conversation with the Swedish Clown BjörnDahlman. So today is another one. Whereas
(00:24):
last time I was inspired by Björn being backin Shanghai for the first time in four years,
this time I’m inspired by myself being backin my home country of the UK for the first
time in four years. I’ve been quite nervousabout this trip for a while. I’ve lived
away from the UK for almost half my life,but in all that time I’ve always been able
(00:49):
to casually pop back for a visit at leastonce a year. But after such a long time away,
it’s very hard to feel casual about it.So as you listen to this, I will hopefully
be busy reconnecting with family, and mendingsome of the ties that have become a little
too frayed in recent years.
(01:10):
So for today’s episode I wanted to chooseone of the past guests from the UK. And who
better than Emily Madge, the Sea Life conservationspecialist from Season 01. This episode was
released back in 2019 (01:25):
the time before COVID; the time before Emily had moved from Shanghai
to Thailand; the time before she then movedfrom Thailand to Denmark; and before she had
her baby daughter Ivy. This won’t be a bigsurprise to anyone who listened to my last
(01:45):
recoded update with Emily at the end of theinterview with Frank ABEL from Season 03 Episode
17, when she was heavily pregnant. Check outthe website or social media to see some recent
photos of Emily with Ivy in Copenhagen, includingone with Ivy being introduced to some penguins
(02:07):
at a sea-life centre (of course). Emily’soriginal episode was one of the most popular
from Season 01, so I’m sure you will enjoyit whether or not you missed it the first
time round.
[Part 1]OF: Thank you so much for coming, Emily.
EM (02:25):
Thank you for having me. OF
the Head of Asia for Conservation, Welfareand Education at Sea Life.
Indeed I am. OF
we were at an event which was being held byour artist friend, Tom. Isn't that right?
Which makes us sound very cultured, yes. OF
(02:46):
And when you told me what you did, I thought“Oh you know what, I have to have you on
this podcast.” And we'll find out why ina moment. But before we do, the first thing
I ask everyone is, what is the object thatyou've bought which in some way typifies your
life here in China?EM: So I've brought with me a diving mask.
OF (03:04):
Oh, very good. EM
for an aquarium called Sea Life. And I lookafter the Asian aquariums we have, as part
of the Conservation, Welfare and Engagement.So I'm based here in Shanghai, and I brought
the object because not only does it representmy career - I’m a marine biologist, I studied
(03:29):
it at Aberystwyth University, but it alsorepresents my love for the ocean, my hobbies,
and how I got into my job.OF: Great. Well, there’s a lot of details
you've already put in there. Maybe the firstdetail I should jump in on is ‘Aberystwyth’.
For people who don't know where that is, whereare you from?
EM (03:47):
So I'm from Cardiff in Wales, and Aberystwyth is a university more north in Wales.
OF (03:54):
Great. So all together, how long have you been in this field?
EM (03:58):
11 years. OF
first talked is specifically what you're doinghere in China. There's been something which
is very special here. So why don't you explainwhat has been I guess the bane of your life,
really, for the last few months.EM: So we acquired Shanghai Aquarium a few
(04:20):
years ago, and we acquired it with two belugawhales that they were keeping. And as part
of Sea Life policy, we do not keep marinemammals or cetaceans in captivity. So part
of the acquisition was a plan to re-home andretire these whales, so they can live out
the rest of their lives in a better place.And so a huge amount of work has gone into
(04:44):
finding a retirement home for them, whichhas now been confirmed as a semi-wild sanctuary
in Iceland. So the past ooh I'd say a year,I've been working closely with colleagues
to work our way to move these whales fromShanghai over to Iceland. There's been a lot
(05:04):
of work involved.OF: Right. When I first thought about this
situation, I thought about when you're inChina, you come up against a lot of red tape,
and sometimes it can be very Kafka-esque.You don't quite know how things are decided,
it can be almost arbitrary. Where do you startwith transporting a whale?
Good question. So there's been lots of details we've had to cover. We have to prepare
(05:27):
the whales for transport themselves. So we'vehad to do a lot of desensitisation training;
we’ve had to train them new behaviours;we've had to increase their body fat, so they've
got enough blubber to keep them warm in thecold Icelandic waters. We have engaged a transport
company called Cargolux, who will be flyingthe whales over.
OF (05:49):
Well, that was one of my questions. EM
And we've built bespoke transport boxes forthem. So they'll be put in a transport stretcher
and then that transport stretcher will sitin a box filled with water. And then we'll
have vets and trainers on the flight, takingcare of the animals the whole time.
(06:12):
Wow. OK. Well, let's dissect that a little bit. How much of that, that you just described,
would have been the case anywhere in the world?And how much have you had to deal with specifically
for China?EM: So it has been done, they move marine
mammals around the world. Obviously, there'sa lot of beluga whales and killer whales here.
So they move them from Russia. There's quitea few people in the industry. But it's very
(06:38):
unique for us to be moving whales out of China.And it's taken a lot of good relationships
and a lot of time and energy to secure thatagreement, that we can move them. And it's
been a very, very interesting project, becausewe're going out of China back into Europe.
The details around it, I could bore you fordays.
(07:00):
What can you think of maybe one thing that has gone particularly smoothly, and then
maybe one thing that's been the most difficult.EM: So I think that generally the project's
gone very smoothly. The whales are in greathealth, we've got a great team of people working
with them. Logistically, we've built theseboxes from scratch, one of my colleagues designed
(07:23):
them just based on some information he hadfrom other marine mammal transports. We've
engaged consultants and vets, everyone's beenvery engaged in the process. And so it's been
a very smooth process, in that sense. Therehave been so many challenges along the way.
Fine details. Ice on the plane was an issue.OF: Ice on the plane?
EM (07:46):
Yeah, through customs. We've had various hurdles, small details that you wouldn't imagine
would be a problem, have then been a problem.So it's required a lot of patience. But we
finally got there.OF: And tell me more about this structure
that you built. Do you have a photo that maybeyou can share with me afterwards?
Yeah, of course. OF
(08:07):
So it's a bespoke structure that's reinforced, obviously, to handle the weight of lifting
the whales. The whales are, we think aboutone tonne in weight. So the poles have had
to be bespoke-made, as well as the stretcherto fit the whale. And then we've had to actually
train the whales to swim into the stretcheras a desensitisation process so that they
(08:30):
don’t freak out when we actually put thestretcher in the water. So we designed those
way back when, and we've been working withthe whales with them ever since.
OF (08:39):
Now let me interject here with… If now and again, I can just say the words “fish
fact” at you, would you be able to say afish fact about anything that the average
listener wouldn't have known?EM: I can indeed.
OK. Well, let me just jump in then, FISH FACT!
EM (08:55):
OK, fish fact. So everyone knows Nemo. So all clown fish are actually born as males,
but they live in a hierarchy. So the femalefish is at the top - there’s only one female
- and when she dies, another male will transitioninto a female.
OF (09:14):
Wow. So hang on, there’s only one female giving birth to the whole shoal?
EM (09:18):
Only one female laying eggs, yeah. OF
something quite dirty right now. That wouldbe a very different Nemo movie.
It's not that dirty. She lays eggs, and then the male comes in and fertilises them
separate, so…OF: Exactly. Exactly. Sorry, OK. Well I will
(09:40):
definitely jump in with another question later.But going back to the whale, then. So you've
acclimatised the whale to swimming into thisharness, I guess is what it is, a sling.
Yes. OF
to being on a plane? Because that's somethingwhich you probably can't predict.
Yep. So there's no way of doing that. The only thing we can do is ensure that we've
got everything in their environment perfect.So that when they when they're actually in
(10:04):
transit, they're as comfortable as possible.And so that goes with water temperature, we
have a filtration system that's on the flightcirculating the water, we have vets with them
the whole time, trainers with them who they'refamiliar with to keep them reassured throughout
the journey. There's so much going into it.As you say, we can't predict what they'll
do on the flight. But we know we can keepthem as calm as possible.
OF (10:28):
I've been on some flights where actually I wouldn't mind having somebody there to give
me a massage.EM: I know. I think this is first class treatment.
Absolutely. OK, so this has been pretty much the key part of your experience in China,
I would assume.EM: Yes, this has definitely been a huge focus
for me since I've been here.OF: Apart from dealing with a whale, how has
your experience in China been different toyour other experiences over the last 11 years?
EM (10:52):
Gosh, very different. It's been my first shot in a regional role. So looking after
more than one aquarium, but being based inChina, has been eye opening, and a new way
of working for me.OF: Hang on, FISH FACT!
Oh, fish fact. OK, when you turn a shark upside down, it goes into a state of trance,
(11:18):
it’s called ‘tonic immobility’. Andit’ll just lie there completely still until
you turn it back over.OF: That's exactly like me with gin and tonic
immobility. And have you seen this, or isit just something you've heard of?
Yeah, absolutely. They use it quite a lot in other aquariums so we can do medical
checks and stuff. So you turn the shark over,you can do a full examination without having
(11:39):
to sedate or use any medication.OF: Wow, that’s handy, right?
Very handy. Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't want to try it with a great white, but people have
OF (11:46):
Wow. OK, well thank you for that. Going back then, to what we were still talking about
with China, in terms of the people you workwith here then, how have they managed you
coming in?EM: They've been so welcoming, it's been very
different for me being in a remote supportrole to all these other aquariums. So not
having a real team was a big shock for me.But the guys in the China office have been
(12:09):
fabulous. I think there's any one other foreignerin the office, and they do they take care
of us. And they've been wonderful. So…OF: You said in general, it's not a big deal
to have mammals and whales in aquariums inChina. What has been your experience of, to
what extent your situation here in Shanghaiis similar to elsewhere in China, or in what
(12:29):
way it's unique?EM: No, very unique. I think there's a huge
aquarium industry in China, and there areso many opening every year. And marine mammals
are part of that, the Chinese do love bigmarine mammals, and having that selfie moment,
and seeing the shows. So what we're doingis quite the opposite, it’s very unique
(12:51):
in that sense. We’ve had a lot of guestsin, and we were talking about what we're doing,
and we've had good feedback from the gueststhat have come into the aquarium, when we've
told them about the project. But it's justa new initiative for China, and hopefully,
it will influence and educate some of theChinese guests - who do like aquariums, and
(13:14):
who do visit marine mammal parks - to justperhaps start thinking differently about marine
mammals in captivity.OF: Right. So your point is that it's more
an education in ecology and sustainability.And it's not about the entertainment side,
as much as the education side.EM: Of course, yeah.
OK, FISH FACT! EM
(13:37):
eats, it expels its stomach out of its mouth,digests the food externally, and then sucks
it up. And sucks its stomach back in, to takeit in.
Wow. EM
Yeah, I’m amazed. So is it like a like flypaper, where it sticks to the stomach,
(13:58):
And then you can just bring it in?EM: No, it surrounds the food, and then all
the digestive enzymes digest it.OF: Outside the body…
EM (14:05):
Outside the body, and then it sucks it up when it's all more liquidised.
OF (14:09):
Right. And do you know how often they feed?
EM (14:12):
Not that often. Once a day? OF
bunch of energy to…EM: Yeah, and they don't really move around
a lot. You know, they don't need that muchfood.
OF (14:22):
Right. Thank you. These are good, these facts. Well, we talked about what you're doing
now. So wow on earth did you get to this point?EM: So I started my career in Weymouth, working
for the same department.OF: Where is Weymouth, for those who don't
know the UK?EM: Sorry, it’s in the south of England,
a lovely little town in the south of Englandthat I'm very fond of. And I started my career
(14:47):
there, working for this department. And Ijust had the opportunity, really, to travel
and support the sites. It's been, I guess,a lot of spontaneous decisions, and sacrifices,
but also wonderful options, that have ledme to now living in China. I certainly don't
take the easy route. I'm up for taking randomchallenges on, whether they be in China or
(15:12):
wherever. But it leads to a unique and funlife. And I've met some incredible people
along the way.OF: And what was your very first job in this
field? Do you remember that?EM: So I started as a jellyfish aquarist.
Oh. EM
(15:34):
to the other Sea Life aquariums in the UKand Europe. Quite random, as a first job.
Right. EM
for seahorses. So we breed jellyfish and seahorsesfor display in other Sea Life centres. So
we weren't taking them from the wild, we werecaptive breeding them.
And I guess there must be quite a few people who’d studied marine biology, but
(15:55):
probably it's quite rare to land the job,even though it was just jellyfish. Like, you
say it was random, but I bet it was prettylucky at that point.
EM (16:01):
Very lucky. OF
I think when I chose to do marine biology, everyone was saying to me, there's no money
in animals or dead people.OF: Oh, what?
This was the advice I was given, yes. OF
I know. But apparently, there's no money in it. As a pathologist.
OF (16:19):
Oh EM
I was just so interested in it, that I wentahead and did the degree. And it was so lucky.
I was so lucky to get the opportunity thatI was given.
Well then, obviously somebody who was your senior back then told you that piece
of advice. If there was a youngster here inthe room, saying “I want to do this”,
(16:41):
what advice would you give them then, admittingthat it was lucky?
EM (16:44):
Oh, absolutely follow your heart and your passion. I think you have to want to get up
for work, you have to have a bit of passionand a bit of drive for it. And it's not always
easy, and it’s long hours, but if you care,then you'll do it. And so 100% go with your
gut. For anyone who wants to get into themarine biology industry, I strongly recommend
(17:05):
doing a lot of work experience, it all fallsdown to work experience now.
OF (17:09):
It's funny you said that about just following your heart, because I can obviously your passionate
about this is palpable, even in this smallroom. And it reminds me that you actually
haven't had a very easy time, especially inthe last year, with health issues.
EM (17:22):
So last year was certainly the most challenging year of my life so far. You know, it was nothing
major, but it was an accumulation of differentstresses: settling into China, settling into
the new job. It just all happened in one year.Very, very challenging, but very grateful
(17:43):
to be where I am now. And it just makes youa stronger person, right? If you go through
things like that, and you come out the otherend with a smile. It was all worth it.
OF (17:54):
Absolutely. Well, look, thanks so much for that. It's been a pleasure speaking to
you about this. Before we go into the nextsection, I have to obviously say FISH FACT!
EM (18:01):
Oh, OK. Fish fact, fish fact. Male angler fish glue themselves to the female vagina
to mate.OF: What?
OF (18:12):
OK, thank you for that. I really didn't know we're going to be going down this route
with these fish facts. I’m starting to reconsiderthis idea.
EM (18:19):
Sorry, I'll keep it clean from now on. OF
the next section.EM: OK.
[Part 2]OF: So here we go. What is your favourite
China-related fact?EM: Oh, that one in every five people in the
world as Chinese.OF: Is it one in five? Wow. And presumably
(18:42):
they’re not all in China, this is the wholediaspora included?
Yes. OF
in Chinese?EM: This is really obvious. But my favourite
one is 没有 [méiyǒu].OF: 没有 [Méiyǒu].
Because of the amount of times it's been said to me during the beluga project.
OF (18:59):
Right. EM
of that word. So I wouldn't say it was myfavourite, but it's the most relevant.
Absolutely. And just to any non-Chinese speakers, what does it mean?
EM (19:12):
No. OF
China?EM: I'm a big fan of 三亚 [Sānyà]. Just
because it's beachy, and it's more my kindof thing than a city.
OF (19:24):
It's the closest thing to Weymouth in China.
EM (19:26):
Yes, it is. OF
yet.EM: Really?
OF (19:30):
Yes. EM
OK. I think it's because whenever I go south, I tend to go to Hong Kong. And I would
get a little bit in trouble if I go all theway down, and don’t go there. But maybe
next time, I'll just do it on the sly.EM: Yeah, you should pop over, it’s worth
it.OF: Oh, very nice.
EM (19:43):
Oh, I have another China fact. OF
A fun one OF
Apparently stamp collecting is the most popular hobby in China.
OF (19:53):
Is that right, though? EM
OK. Even now? EM
OK, I'm gonna have to corroborate that, I'll see if that's right or not.
EM (20:03):
OK. OF
the thing you missed the most, and what wouldbe the thing you missed the least?
The thing I've missed the most? Definitely the people. I've met such wonderful people
here. The thing that I wouldn't miss is - I'vegot to say it - it’s the spitting.
OF (20:21):
Oh. EM
to it.OF: It's funny, actually. Because nowadays,
especially in Shanghai, I find that they didn'treally do it as much as perhaps in other areas.
EM (20:31):
Maybe we move in different circles. OF
I had my family in town, and we were travelling.And it's the one thing my father - who is
very patient and open-minded and easygoing- it’s the one thing he will lose his **** over.
Yeah. OF
what, it's overblown. People don't reallydo it as much as you think”. And then, of
(20:54):
course, this taxi driver literally, everyother traffic light he would open the window
and hock a loogie.EM: Yeah, it's not good. And my favourite
is when I'm on my scooter, and the guy infront decides to hock one out. That’s lovely,
when it sprays on me.OF: OK.
So I won't miss that OF
For sure. OF
(21:17):
are, you get a lot more earthy people.EM: Earthy people. Yes, it's in, I think,
the second biggest park in Shanghai. That'swhere our aquarium is based. So there's a
lot of the older generation bringing grandchildrenthere.
OF (21:30):
Right. EM
they're doing Tai Chi and everyone's out,you know, playing sports and stuff, but…
How funny. Now, is there anything that still mystifies you about life in China?
EM (21:43):
Oh, um, everything. Everything mystifies me. I think every day there's something that
fascinates me. I still can't get my head aroundany of it, but it's fabulous.
OF (21:58):
Where's your favourite place to go eat drink or hang out?
EM (22:03):
Oh, um, where's my favourite place? I tend to be lazy with it, really. Kind of Funkadeli
area, just because it's five minutes walkfrom home, there's always people there. I
love hotpot. So any good hotpot restaurant.OF: Even the spicy one?
The spicy one is the best. Yeah, I love that. So, yeah, I float around. I wouldn't
(22:27):
say I have one place in particular.OF: Right.
And I also travel quite a lot for work. So I wouldn't say I'm here that often to be
a regular anywhere.OF: Right. And what is the best or the worst
purchase you made in China?EM: So I'm addicted to Taobao.
OF (22:42):
You're not the first person sat in that chair who’s said that.
EM (22:46):
But the best purchase is definitely my scooter.
OF (22:48):
Oh, right. EM
I've never seen you on that scooter. EM
No. EM
you want.OF: Oh, yes please.
EM (22:57):
Worst purchase? Probably some fake red wine I bought from a shop once. Clearly in
the wrong bottle.OF: Really?
It was awful. OF
does happen, because I heard that as a kindof apocryphal tale.
It definitely happens. Oh right. OF
(23:17):
In fact, turn on your phone and send it tome.
OK. OF
going on in that sticker?EM: Um, so it's a woman with attitude, strutting
down the street. And she grabs a businessmanand starts dry-humping him, and his face.
OF (23:39):
Oh my word! EM
how to describe it. How would you describeit?
That's how it looks. I'm actually… I'm a little bit embarrassed, am I going red?
EM (23:49):
That’s why it's my favourite. You have to post it.
OF (23:52):
OK, I'm posting it. I definitely… I'm doing it under duress. This is objectifying.
I am completely scandalised by this one.EM: OK, I’m sorry to put you in that position.
No, it's very funny. Good. What's your go-to song to sing at KTV?
EM (24:06):
Um, so I'm not much of a singer at KTV. I'm usually the one sat down watching, drinking
the wine. But I would go ‘Hey, Jude’.OF: Oh.
If I had to. OF
Yeah, it gets everyone going. Everyone joins in with the “Laa, laa”s.
OF (24:23):
Really? EM
Yeah. EM
one.OF: Yeah. When you don't remember how annoyed
you are at the 10th “Laa, laa, laa…”EM: Yeah. And everyone's too drunk to remember
me singing.OF: That's actually a very good point, because
then everyone sings on top of you, and youcan just slide away and go back to the wine
in the corner.EM: Exactly.
Oh very good. EM
And finally, what other China-related media or sources of information do you rely
(24:46):
on?EM: Probably SmartShanghai. SmartShanghai
and WeChat are my two. And Taobao.OF: Yep.
EM (24:54):
These are my three China apps that I go to.
OF (24:57):
Excellent. Well, thank you so much. EM
[Intro]OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China, a podcast
about people who are making their mark inChina. I’m your host, Oscar Fuchs.
I received some great feedback after the lastepisode, which was the re-release of my original
conversation with the Swedish Clown BjörnDahlman. So today is another one. Whereas
(00:24):
last time I was inspired by Björn being backin Shanghai for the first time in four years,
this time I’m inspired by myself being backin my home country of the UK for the first
time in four years. I’ve been quite nervousabout this trip for a while. I’ve lived
away from the UK for almost half my life,but in all that time I’ve always been able
(00:49):
to casually pop back for a visit at leastonce a year. But after such a long time away,
it’s very hard to feel casual about it.So as you listen to this, I will hopefully
be busy reconnecting with family, and mendingsome of the ties that have become a little
too frayed in recent years.
(01:10):
So for today’s episode I wanted to chooseone of the past guests from the UK. And who
better than Emily Madge, the Sea Life conservationspecialist from Season 01. This episode was
released back in 2019 (01:25):
the time before COVID; the time before Emily had moved from Shanghai
to Thailand; the time before she then movedfrom Thailand to Denmark; and before she had
her baby daughter Ivy. This won’t be a bigsurprise to anyone who listened to my last
(01:45):
recoded update with Emily at the end of theinterview with Frank ABEL from Season 03 Episode
17, when she was heavily pregnant. Check outthe website or social media to see some recent
photos of Emily with Ivy in Copenhagen, includingone with Ivy being introduced to some penguins
(02:07):
at a sea-life centre (of course). Emily’soriginal episode was one of the most popular
from Season 01, so I’m sure you will enjoyit whether or not you missed it the first
time round.
[Part 1]OF: Thank you so much for coming, Emily.
EM (02:25):
Thank you for having me. OF
the Head of Asia for Conservation, Welfareand Education at Sea Life.
Indeed I am. OF
we were at an event which was being held byour artist friend, Tom. Isn't that right?
Which makes us sound very cultured, yes. OF
(02:46):
And when you told me what you did, I thought“Oh you know what, I have to have you on
this podcast.” And we'll find out why ina moment. But before we do, the first thing
I ask everyone is, what is the object thatyou've bought which in some way typifies your
life here in China?EM: So I've brought with me a diving mask.
OF (03:04):
Oh, very good. EM
for an aquarium called Sea Life. And I lookafter the Asian aquariums we have, as part
of the Conservation, Welfare and Engagement.So I'm based here in Shanghai, and I brought
the object because not only does it representmy career - I’m a marine biologist, I studied
(03:29):
it at Aberystwyth University, but it alsorepresents my love for the ocean, my hobbies,
and how I got into my job.OF: Great. Well, there’s a lot of details
you've already put in there. Maybe the firstdetail I should jump in on is ‘Aberystwyth’.
For people who don't know where that is, whereare you from?
EM (03:47):
So I'm from Cardiff in Wales, and Aberystwyth is a university more north in Wales.
OF (03:54):
Great. So all together, how long have you been in this field?
EM (03:58):
11 years. OF
first talked is specifically what you're doinghere in China. There's been something which
is very special here. So why don't you explainwhat has been I guess the bane of your life,
really, for the last few months.EM: So we acquired Shanghai Aquarium a few
(04:20):
years ago, and we acquired it with two belugawhales that they were keeping. And as part
of Sea Life policy, we do not keep marinemammals or cetaceans in captivity. So part
of the acquisition was a plan to re-home andretire these whales, so they can live out
the rest of their lives in a better place.And so a huge amount of work has gone into
(04:44):
finding a retirement home for them, whichhas now been confirmed as a semi-wild sanctuary
in Iceland. So the past ooh I'd say a year,I've been working closely with colleagues
to work our way to move these whales fromShanghai over to Iceland. There's been a lot
(05:04):
of work involved.OF: Right. When I first thought about this
situation, I thought about when you're inChina, you come up against a lot of red tape,
and sometimes it can be very Kafka-esque.You don't quite know how things are decided,
it can be almost arbitrary. Where do you startwith transporting a whale?
Good question. So there's been lots of details we've had to cover. We have to prepare
(05:27):
the whales for transport themselves. So we'vehad to do a lot of desensitisation training;
we’ve had to train them new behaviours;we've had to increase their body fat, so they've
got enough blubber to keep them warm in thecold Icelandic waters. We have engaged a transport
company called Cargolux, who will be flyingthe whales over.
OF (05:49):
Well, that was one of my questions. EM
And we've built bespoke transport boxes forthem. So they'll be put in a transport stretcher
and then that transport stretcher will sitin a box filled with water. And then we'll
have vets and trainers on the flight, takingcare of the animals the whole time.
(06:12):
Wow. OK. Well, let's dissect that a little bit. How much of that, that you just described,
would have been the case anywhere in the world?And how much have you had to deal with specifically
for China?EM: So it has been done, they move marine
mammals around the world. Obviously, there'sa lot of beluga whales and killer whales here.
So they move them from Russia. There's quitea few people in the industry. But it's very
(06:38):
unique for us to be moving whales out of China.And it's taken a lot of good relationships
and a lot of time and energy to secure thatagreement, that we can move them. And it's
been a very, very interesting project, becausewe're going out of China back into Europe.
The details around it, I could bore you fordays.
(07:00):
What can you think of maybe one thing that has gone particularly smoothly, and then
maybe one thing that's been the most difficult.EM: So I think that generally the project's
gone very smoothly. The whales are in greathealth, we've got a great team of people working
with them. Logistically, we've built theseboxes from scratch, one of my colleagues designed
(07:23):
them just based on some information he hadfrom other marine mammal transports. We've
engaged consultants and vets, everyone's beenvery engaged in the process. And so it's been
a very smooth process, in that sense. Therehave been so many challenges along the way.
Fine details. Ice on the plane was an issue.OF: Ice on the plane?
EM (07:46):
Yeah, through customs. We've had various hurdles, small details that you wouldn't imagine
would be a problem, have then been a problem.So it's required a lot of patience. But we
finally got there.OF: And tell me more about this structure
that you built. Do you have a photo that maybeyou can share with me afterwards?
Yeah, of course. OF
(08:07):
So it's a bespoke structure that's reinforced, obviously, to handle the weight of lifting
the whales. The whales are, we think aboutone tonne in weight. So the poles have had
to be bespoke-made, as well as the stretcherto fit the whale. And then we've had to actually
train the whales to swim into the stretcheras a desensitisation process so that they
(08:30):
don’t freak out when we actually put thestretcher in the water. So we designed those
way back when, and we've been working withthe whales with them ever since.
OF (08:39):
Now let me interject here with… If now and again, I can just say the words “fish
fact” at you, would you be able to say afish fact about anything that the average
listener wouldn't have known?EM: I can indeed.
OK. Well, let me just jump in then, FISH FACT!
EM (08:55):
OK, fish fact. So everyone knows Nemo. So all clown fish are actually born as males,
but they live in a hierarchy. So the femalefish is at the top - there’s only one female
- and when she dies, another male will transitioninto a female.
OF (09:14):
Wow. So hang on, there’s only one female giving birth to the whole shoal?
EM (09:18):
Only one female laying eggs, yeah. OF
something quite dirty right now. That wouldbe a very different Nemo movie.
It's not that dirty. She lays eggs, and then the male comes in and fertilises them
separate, so…OF: Exactly. Exactly. Sorry, OK. Well I will
(09:40):
definitely jump in with another question later.But going back to the whale, then. So you've
acclimatised the whale to swimming into thisharness, I guess is what it is, a sling.
Yes. OF
to being on a plane? Because that's somethingwhich you probably can't predict.
Yep. So there's no way of doing that. The only thing we can do is ensure that we've
got everything in their environment perfect.So that when they when they're actually in
(10:04):
transit, they're as comfortable as possible.And so that goes with water temperature, we
have a filtration system that's on the flightcirculating the water, we have vets with them
the whole time, trainers with them who they'refamiliar with to keep them reassured throughout
the journey. There's so much going into it.As you say, we can't predict what they'll
do on the flight. But we know we can keepthem as calm as possible.
OF (10:28):
I've been on some flights where actually I wouldn't mind having somebody there to give
me a massage.EM: I know. I think this is first class treatment.
Absolutely. OK, so this has been pretty much the key part of your experience in China,
I would assume.EM: Yes, this has definitely been a huge focus
for me since I've been here.OF: Apart from dealing with a whale, how has
your experience in China been different toyour other experiences over the last 11 years?
EM (10:52):
Gosh, very different. It's been my first shot in a regional role. So looking after
more than one aquarium, but being based inChina, has been eye opening, and a new way
of working for me.OF: Hang on, FISH FACT!
Oh, fish fact. OK, when you turn a shark upside down, it goes into a state of trance,
(11:18):
it’s called ‘tonic immobility’. Andit’ll just lie there completely still until
you turn it back over.OF: That's exactly like me with gin and tonic
immobility. And have you seen this, or isit just something you've heard of?
Yeah, absolutely. They use it quite a lot in other aquariums so we can do medical
checks and stuff. So you turn the shark over,you can do a full examination without having
(11:39):
to sedate or use any medication.OF: Wow, that’s handy, right?
Very handy. Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't want to try it with a great white, but people have
OF (11:46):
Wow. OK, well thank you for that. Going back then, to what we were still talking about
with China, in terms of the people you workwith here then, how have they managed you
coming in?EM: They've been so welcoming, it's been very
different for me being in a remote supportrole to all these other aquariums. So not
having a real team was a big shock for me.But the guys in the China office have been
(12:09):
fabulous. I think there's any one other foreignerin the office, and they do they take care
of us. And they've been wonderful. So…OF: You said in general, it's not a big deal
to have mammals and whales in aquariums inChina. What has been your experience of, to
what extent your situation here in Shanghaiis similar to elsewhere in China, or in what
(12:29):
way it's unique?EM: No, very unique. I think there's a huge
aquarium industry in China, and there areso many opening every year. And marine mammals
are part of that, the Chinese do love bigmarine mammals, and having that selfie moment,
and seeing the shows. So what we're doingis quite the opposite, it’s very unique
(12:51):
in that sense. We’ve had a lot of guestsin, and we were talking about what we're doing,
and we've had good feedback from the gueststhat have come into the aquarium, when we've
told them about the project. But it's justa new initiative for China, and hopefully,
it will influence and educate some of theChinese guests - who do like aquariums, and
(13:14):
who do visit marine mammal parks - to justperhaps start thinking differently about marine
mammals in captivity.OF: Right. So your point is that it's more
an education in ecology and sustainability.And it's not about the entertainment side,
as much as the education side.EM: Of course, yeah.
OK, FISH FACT! EM
(13:37):
eats, it expels its stomach out of its mouth,digests the food externally, and then sucks
it up. And sucks its stomach back in, to takeit in.
Wow. EM
Yeah, I’m amazed. So is it like a like flypaper, where it sticks to the stomach,
(13:58):
And then you can just bring it in?EM: No, it surrounds the food, and then all
the digestive enzymes digest it.OF: Outside the body…
EM (14:05):
Outside the body, and then it sucks it up when it's all more liquidised.
OF (14:09):
Right. And do you know how often they feed?
EM (14:12):
Not that often. Once a day? OF
bunch of energy to…EM: Yeah, and they don't really move around
a lot. You know, they don't need that muchfood.
OF (14:22):
Right. Thank you. These are good, these facts. Well, we talked about what you're doing
now. So wow on earth did you get to this point?EM: So I started my career in Weymouth, working
for the same department.OF: Where is Weymouth, for those who don't
know the UK?EM: Sorry, it’s in the south of England,
a lovely little town in the south of Englandthat I'm very fond of. And I started my career
(14:47):
there, working for this department. And Ijust had the opportunity, really, to travel
and support the sites. It's been, I guess,a lot of spontaneous decisions, and sacrifices,
but also wonderful options, that have ledme to now living in China. I certainly don't
take the easy route. I'm up for taking randomchallenges on, whether they be in China or
(15:12):
wherever. But it leads to a unique and funlife. And I've met some incredible people
along the way.OF: And what was your very first job in this
field? Do you remember that?EM: So I started as a jellyfish aquarist.
Oh. EM
(15:34):
to the other Sea Life aquariums in the UKand Europe. Quite random, as a first job.
Right. EM
for seahorses. So we breed jellyfish and seahorsesfor display in other Sea Life centres. So
we weren't taking them from the wild, we werecaptive breeding them.
And I guess there must be quite a few people who’d studied marine biology, but
(15:55):
probably it's quite rare to land the job,even though it was just jellyfish. Like, you
say it was random, but I bet it was prettylucky at that point.
EM (16:01):
Very lucky. OF
I think when I chose to do marine biology, everyone was saying to me, there's no money
in animals or dead people.OF: Oh, what?
This was the advice I was given, yes. OF
I know. But apparently, there's no money in it. As a pathologist.
OF (16:19):
Oh EM
I was just so interested in it, that I wentahead and did the degree. And it was so lucky.
I was so lucky to get the opportunity thatI was given.
Well then, obviously somebody who was your senior back then told you that piece
of advice. If there was a youngster here inthe room, saying “I want to do this”,
(16:41):
what advice would you give them then, admittingthat it was lucky?
EM (16:44):
Oh, absolutely follow your heart and your passion. I think you have to want to get up
for work, you have to have a bit of passionand a bit of drive for it. And it's not always
easy, and it’s long hours, but if you care,then you'll do it. And so 100% go with your
gut. For anyone who wants to get into themarine biology industry, I strongly recommend
(17:05):
doing a lot of work experience, it all fallsdown to work experience now.
OF (17:09):
It's funny you said that about just following your heart, because I can obviously your passionate
about this is palpable, even in this smallroom. And it reminds me that you actually
haven't had a very easy time, especially inthe last year, with health issues.
EM (17:22):
So last year was certainly the most challenging year of my life so far. You know, it was nothing
major, but it was an accumulation of differentstresses: settling into China, settling into
the new job. It just all happened in one year.Very, very challenging, but very grateful
(17:43):
to be where I am now. And it just makes youa stronger person, right? If you go through
things like that, and you come out the otherend with a smile. It was all worth it.
OF (17:54):
Absolutely. Well, look, thanks so much for that. It's been a pleasure speaking to
you about this. Before we go into the nextsection, I have to obviously say FISH FACT!
EM (18:01):
Oh, OK. Fish fact, fish fact. Male angler fish glue themselves to the female vagina
to mate.OF: What?
OF (18:12):
OK, thank you for that. I really didn't know we're going to be going down this route
with these fish facts. I’m starting to reconsiderthis idea.
EM (18:19):
Sorry, I'll keep it clean from now on. OF
the next section.EM: OK.
[Part 2]OF: So here we go. What is your favourite
China-related fact?EM: Oh, that one in every five people in the
world as Chinese.OF: Is it one in five? Wow. And presumably
(18:42):
they’re not all in China, this is the wholediaspora included?
Yes. OF
in Chinese?EM: This is really obvious. But my favourite
one is 没有 [méiyǒu].OF: 没有 [Méiyǒu].
Because of the amount of times it's been said to me during the beluga project.
OF (18:59):
Right. EM
of that word. So I wouldn't say it was myfavourite, but it's the most relevant.
Absolutely. And just to any non-Chinese speakers, what does it mean?
EM (19:12):
No. OF
China?EM: I'm a big fan of 三亚 [Sānyà]. Just
because it's beachy, and it's more my kindof thing than a city.
OF (19:24):
It's the closest thing to Weymouth in China.
EM (19:26):
Yes, it is. OF
yet.EM: Really?
OF (19:30):
Yes. EM
OK. I think it's because whenever I go south, I tend to go to Hong Kong. And I would
get a little bit in trouble if I go all theway down, and don’t go there. But maybe
next time, I'll just do it on the sly.EM: Yeah, you should pop over, it’s worth
it.OF: Oh, very nice.
EM (19:43):
Oh, I have another China fact. OF
A fun one OF
Apparently stamp collecting is the most popular hobby in China.
OF (19:53):
Is that right, though? EM
OK. Even now? EM
OK, I'm gonna have to corroborate that, I'll see if that's right or not.
EM (20:03):
OK. OF
the thing you missed the most, and what wouldbe the thing you missed the least?
The thing I've missed the most? Definitely the people. I've met such wonderful people
here. The thing that I wouldn't miss is - I'vegot to say it - it’s the spitting.
OF (20:21):
Oh. EM
to it.OF: It's funny, actually. Because nowadays,
especially in Shanghai, I find that they didn'treally do it as much as perhaps in other areas.
EM (20:31):
Maybe we move in different circles. OF
I had my family in town, and we were travelling.And it's the one thing my father - who is
very patient and open-minded and easygoing- it’s the one thing he will lose his **** over.
Yeah. OF
what, it's overblown. People don't reallydo it as much as you think”. And then, of
(20:54):
course, this taxi driver literally, everyother traffic light he would open the window
and hock a loogie.EM: Yeah, it's not good. And my favourite
is when I'm on my scooter, and the guy infront decides to hock one out. That’s lovely,
when it sprays on me.OF: OK.
So I won't miss that OF
For sure. OF
(21:17):
are, you get a lot more earthy people.EM: Earthy people. Yes, it's in, I think,
the second biggest park in Shanghai. That'swhere our aquarium is based. So there's a
lot of the older generation bringing grandchildrenthere.
OF (21:30):
Right. EM
they're doing Tai Chi and everyone's out,you know, playing sports and stuff, but…
How funny. Now, is there anything that still mystifies you about life in China?
EM (21:43):
Oh, um, everything. Everything mystifies me. I think every day there's something that
fascinates me. I still can't get my head aroundany of it, but it's fabulous.
OF (21:58):
Where's your favourite place to go eat drink or hang out?
EM (22:03):
Oh, um, where's my favourite place? I tend to be lazy with it, really. Kind of Funkadeli
area, just because it's five minutes walkfrom home, there's always people there. I
love hotpot. So any good hotpot restaurant.OF: Even the spicy one?
The spicy one is the best. Yeah, I love that. So, yeah, I float around. I wouldn't
(22:27):
say I have one place in particular.OF: Right.
And I also travel quite a lot for work. So I wouldn't say I'm here that often to be
a regular anywhere.OF: Right. And what is the best or the worst
purchase you made in China?EM: So I'm addicted to Taobao.
OF (22:42):
You're not the first person sat in that chair who’s said that.
EM (22:46):
But the best purchase is definitely my scooter.
OF (22:48):
Oh, right. EM
I've never seen you on that scooter. EM
No. EM
you want.OF: Oh, yes please.
EM (22:57):
Worst purchase? Probably some fake red wine I bought from a shop once. Clearly in
the wrong bottle.OF: Really?
It was awful. OF
does happen, because I heard that as a kindof apocryphal tale.
It definitely happens. Oh right. OF
(23:17):
In fact, turn on your phone and send it tome.
OK. OF
going on in that sticker?EM: Um, so it's a woman with attitude, strutting
down the street. And she grabs a businessmanand starts dry-humping him, and his face.
OF (23:39):
Oh my word! EM
how to describe it. How would you describeit?
That's how it looks. I'm actually… I'm a little bit embarrassed, am I going red?
EM (23:49):
That’s why it's my favourite. You have to post it.
OF (23:52):
OK, I'm posting it. I definitely… I'm doing it under duress. This is objectifying.
I am completely scandalised by this one.EM: OK, I’m sorry to put you in that position.
No, it's very funny. Good. What's your go-to song to sing at KTV?
EM (24:06):
Um, so I'm not much of a singer at KTV. I'm usually the one sat down watching, drinking
the wine. But I would go ‘Hey, Jude’.OF: Oh.
If I had to. OF
Yeah, it gets everyone going. Everyone joins in with the “Laa, laa”s.
OF (24:23):
Really? EM
Yeah. EM
one.OF: Yeah. When you don't remember how annoyed
you are at the 10th “Laa, laa, laa…”EM: Yeah. And everyone's too drunk to remember
me singing.OF: That's actually a very good point, because
then everyone sings on top of you, and youcan just slide away and go back to the wine
in the corner.EM: Exactly.
Oh very good. EM
And finally, what other China-related media or sources of information do you rely
(24:46):
on?EM: Probably SmartShanghai. SmartShanghai
and WeChat are my two. And Taobao.OF: Yep.
EM (24:54):
These are my three China apps that I go to.
OF (24:57):
Excellent. Well, thank you so much. EM
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