November 13, 2025 • 43 mins
In this heartfelt episode, Jacqueline is joined by her husband, Josh, to talk openly about something that’s become a major part of their family’s life lately: ABA therapy. After their oldest son was diagnosed with level 1 autism and ADHD at age six, they spent months sitting with the news, learning, questioning, and honestly…trying to figure out what actually felt right for their family.
Fast forward to today, and he’s been in in-home ABA therapy for four months — about 11 hours a week — and it's been eye-opening in ways they never expected.
In this episode, they share:
✨ How they first learned about ABA and why they waited nearly a year to start
✨ What modern ABA really is (and what it’s NOT)
✨ What those early sessions looked like and why they felt so uncomfortable
✨ The real-life skills their son is learning — from self-regulation to navigating fear
✨ How ABA has helped them as parents, not just him
✨ Why some parents have negative experiences, and how to spot supportive, child-led ABA
✨ How they’ve grown in advocating for their son at home and at school
✨ What they wish they’d known earlier in this journey
Jacqueline and Josh also share real moments: the meltdowns, the breakthroughs, the fear episodes, the “aha” lessons, and even how their son now proudly says, “I used my tools today.” Hearing him learn to advocate for himself — at seven years old — has been one of the biggest gifts.
If you’re a parent exploring autism evaluations, therapy options, or if you’re just curious what ABA looks like day-to-day for a high-functioning child, we hope this conversation gives you clarity, comfort, and the reminder that you’re not alone.
✨ Resources✨
• Learn more about ABA (Autism Speaks):
https://www.autismspeaks.org/applied-behavior-analysis
• Find a BCBA (Behavior Analyst Certification Board):
https://www.bacb.com/services/o.php?page=100155
• The Whole-Brain Child (book):
https://drdansiegel.com/book/the-whole-brain-child/
Have questions or want to share your experience?
Email Jacqueline at hello@motherhoodintended.com
or send her a message on Instagram. She'd love to hear your story and keep this conversation going.
Thanks for listening — and if this episode helped you, please share it with another parent who might be wondering if ABA therapy is right for their family. 💛
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_02 (00:20):
We're gonna be talking about things like
identity, infertility, IDF,surrogacy, mom life support.
I'm gonna get real about what ittakes to be a mom and put
together with the fact thatthings don't always go as
planned.
So here we go.
SPEAKER_03 (00:35):
Hey friends, welcome back to Motherhood Intended.
As you know, I'm your host,Jaclyn, and today I've got my
husband, Josh, joining me againon the show.
SPEAKER_00 (00:43):
Hey guys, great to be back on my wife's podcast.
SPEAKER_03 (00:46):
We are having quite the couple weeks here.
Um sorry if I sound nasally,sorry if this episode sounds a
little different.
We are quite literally playingworkspace roulette in our house
right now.
If you've listened to thepodcast for a while now, you'll
know that the office, which islike the recording space, uh
ebbs and flows with being puttogether and becoming a closet.
Right now we're in the closetphase, which usually happens
(01:08):
right before the holidaysbecause we don't know where to
put things.
We're changing out seasons ofclothes.
One's at school, one's homesick,and one kid is napping.
So we are downstairs at our newdesk space that is in our living
room.
As you can hear, I'm a littlenasally getting over a cold.
But yeah, this last week or twohas been a doozy mess.
Yeah, it started with Huntergetting sick.
(01:29):
Um, he was down for the countfor like five, six days.
Now Noah's sick.
In the meantime, I've had reallyjust a head cold.
Just enough to like be annoying,but you know, still be able to
do what I need to do.
SPEAKER_00 (01:40):
The best thing we've done thus far is keeping Lorelai
from getting sick.
SPEAKER_03 (01:43):
Yeah, that really has been a win, and you haven't
gotten sick either.
SPEAKER_00 (01:46):
No.
SPEAKER_03 (01:46):
So that is good.
But other than that, I don'tknow.
What's new, Josh?
What's what's going on in ourlife right now?
SPEAKER_00 (01:53):
I would say the biggest thing going on in our
lives right now is the topic ofthe day.
What we're gonna discuss.
SPEAKER_03 (01:59):
Topic of the day, yes.
So when I was trying to decidewhat I I had to do a little
switching around of our podcastschedule, and I was trying to
decide what was top of mind forme and what I wanted to talk
about.
I had a few different ideas, butthe topic of ABA therapy came
up.
And it's a top of mind, likeJosh said, because our oldest
son is in ABA therapy and it'sin-home therapy, and it's about
(02:21):
11 hours a week.
So that has become a big part ofour lives.
And how long has he been doingit now?
Just trying to think.
SPEAKER_00 (02:29):
I had to guess at least three months, maybe four.
It probably has been maybe four,yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (02:34):
Yeah, because it started before school, right?
SPEAKER_00 (02:37):
Yes, it did.
It started in August.
So yeah, four months.
SPEAKER_03 (02:39):
Yeah, we're on the fourth month, which is wild.
11 hours a week.
It's a lot of time for him, it'sa lot of time for us.
It's become even more so nowthat you know the last few
months was school.
We wanted to talk about thattoday, just for anybody who
might be interested in what ABAtherapy is, or for anybody else
who has a child on the autismspectrum and might be interested
(03:00):
in ABA as a resource.
So yeah, today we just wanted tohave an honest conversation
about this therapy.
We've recently started with ourson, and there's a lot of mixed
opinions out there about it,especially what I've noticed in
the autism parent community inFacebook groups and stuff.
I don't totally get why.
I know what people are sayingabout it, but from our
(03:20):
perspective, we just have had atotally different experience.
As we all know, as parents, it'shard to make sense of what's
best for your child when you'rereading so many conflicting
things online.
So we're just gonna share ourexperience, what ABA really
looks like day to day, what'sbeen helpful for our family, and
then just kind of how we'venavigated the misconceptions
around it.
So, for those who don't knowwhat ABA is, it's applied
(03:43):
behavior analysis, which isreally just understanding why
behaviors happen and teachinghelpful skills through positive
reinforcement.
Modern ABA is more play-based,it's flexible, and it's focused
on communication andindependence, not like robotic
training.
For kids on the spectrum, as youknow, it is a spectrum.
(04:03):
Our son is level one, highfunctioning.
So he has like specific areasthat he needs help with.
And then the spectrum, it's it'sbig.
There could be kids who arenon-verbal and who have a lot
more needs and things that theywill need to work on.
For us, so first we'll just kindof share how we even got here.
So our son, it was about twoyears ago now, almost years ago,
(04:25):
because he'll be eight in March.
So when he was six, we had himevaluated based on the
recommendation of hisoccupational therapist that he
had been working with since hewas like five years old.
So it'd been a year in differenttherapies, and the therapist
suggested that he was definitelystruggling with ADHD.
She didn't think autism, butafter reading things and just
(04:46):
knowing my own son's history andum risks, and again, there's a
lot of debate about the originof autism, hereditary
circumstances, a combination ofthe both.
Um, I just remember the firsttime I heard that word was when
he was born at 24 weeks.
They were at risk for a lot ofdifferent developmental things.
So we had him evaluated, and itwas then at age six that we
(05:08):
found out that he was on theautism spectrum, high
functioning, also a very highIQ, and also ADHD.
And so it was that psychologistthat recommended ABA therapy as
I don't want to say treatment,it's not something you treat, as
something to support him as hemoves through school and life.
But to be completely honest, Ithink when we first got that
(05:30):
initial evaluation done, didn'tit didn't really sink in.
SPEAKER_00 (05:33):
Yeah, we sat on it for about six months.
SPEAKER_03 (05:36):
Yeah, and then there is another podcast episode where
we share the diagnosis and trulyfor like six months, we're just
like, I mean, this changesnothing.
I think if anything, we werevery defensive, not like in
denial defensive, well, maybe alittle.
Or just like we didn't wantanything to change.
We didn't want him to belabeled.
SPEAKER_00 (05:54):
Yeah, I think that was the biggest thing was label.
SPEAKER_03 (05:56):
Yeah, but it was at that time that AVA was the first
time I heard it that it wassuggested.
We kind of put that aside anddigested it for about six
months, and then going intofirst grade, we made his
teachers aware.
We wrote up an about me page,gave it to the support staff,
talked to the school just tomake sure he had what he might
need and make sure that's ontheir radar so they could
support him and still basicallya year, a little over a year
(06:18):
later, we had to have itre-evaluated because insurance
is super fun.
And we couldn't get that kind oftherapy covered by insurance
unless he had an up-to-dateevaluation.
Backstory, it's like over athousand dollars for this
evaluation, at least in oursituation with insurance and
stuff.
Um, so that was fun.
Also, it's a very long day.
I mean, it's five hours ofexercises and me answering
(06:41):
questionnaires and an interviewand just like all sorts of
things.
But I will say the second timehe was evaluated as a
seven-year-old went waydifferently than him as a
six-year-old, which actually wasvery eye-opening to just how he
naturally will grow and matureon his own.
Because when he was six, theycouldn't even do all the tests
because he like shut down and hewas too stressed about anything
(07:03):
that was timed.
But just him being in school, Ithink, for almost two years,
kind of lessened that stress forhim.
SPEAKER_00 (07:10):
Yeah, because I think he was a little more used
to sitting there and having todo something since he was
sitting in class for like, youknow, that six, seven hours a
day.
SPEAKER_03 (07:16):
And I think he was just maybe even a little more
confident in himself in certainareas because initially he
really struggled with needing tobe perfect at all times.
SPEAKER_00 (07:24):
Yeah, that's definitely out the window now,
especially when you see himwrite his name.
SPEAKER_03 (07:27):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So anyway, at age seven, we tookhim back, got evaluated.
Same conclusion, level one, highfunctioning, autism, and ADHD.
And this is when this therapywas presented again.
And so this time we really tookit seriously because he did have
some struggles in the beginningof kindergarten and had some
(07:49):
struggles that kind of went overour heads in first grade, like
that we weren't aware of untilit like he told us like randomly
on a Tuesday, you know, likewhere he was like crying in
class or this or that.
And we we just didn't feel likehe was getting the right
support.
So to make sure that he was, wewe started ABA, we revisited, we
met with the school, all thethings.
So yeah, that's kind of how welanded on ABA therapy.
(08:09):
But I will have to say, like, Ididn't really know anything
about it, other than it was aphrase that came up on like
every parent autism group I wasin.
It was like ABA therapy, ABAtherapy, who has a good
therapist?
Did you know anything about it?
SPEAKER_00 (08:22):
No, I've never heard of it in my life.
SPEAKER_03 (08:24):
Yeah.
I mean, and when I told youabout it, and we knew it'd be an
in-home therapy, and I know forme at first I was like, oh,
that's so nice.
Like that's easier because it'sat home.
But I was in shock when it wasmentioned how many hours a week.
SPEAKER_00 (08:37):
Yeah, that's what took me back.
And yeah, even when they said itwas in-home, I thought it would
be I don't know, an hour once ortwice a week, or not 11 hours,
you know, Monday, Wednesday,Thursday, Saturday.
SPEAKER_03 (08:51):
Yeah, it's become a really big part of our life
together with this therapy goingon.
Now this journey does lookdifferent for everybody because
it was told to us, you know,with our son, he retains
information really well and he'spretty good at applying things
when he can.
Like anyone, things takepractice and it's learning
skills, and skills just don'tyou don't just learn a skill and
(09:13):
then you have it the next day.
It takes practice and habit andswitching the way your mind
thinks a little bit.
But because he is so highfunctioning and very smart, you
know, it's not going to be atherapy he's in forever,
essentially.
SPEAKER_00 (09:25):
And the nice thing is is no, they set the schedule
for six months, and it'll changeon how well he takes what he's
learning and applies it.
Like for if he doesn't take theinformation and apply it, they
could ramp up the hours more.
But I think we're on pace to, inmy opinion, probably have those
hours shortened a little bit.
Because he is really good attaking what he learns and
applies it.
(09:46):
He does it a lot, which isreally nice.
SPEAKER_03 (09:48):
Yeah, and if not like shortening hours, just like
being done with the therapysooner.
SPEAKER_01 (09:53):
Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (09:53):
So at the beginning of therapy, how did you feel
with like the first say likethree weeks?
Because I you were kind of inand out depending on your work
travel.
SPEAKER_00 (10:03):
Yeah, I hated it.
And that was no secret.
For me personally, it took a lotof like I found myself pacing
around my own house because Ifelt weird to be in my own house
because you know, first coupleweeks to me they were a stranger
and I would listen to what theywould talk about and I had to
see what they were doing.
I remember like the first coupleof times they were here, you
know, I saw them playing videogames, and that really broke me
(10:24):
the wrong way.
But also I didn't know the whybehind the what, but I remember
like being so angry, and youknow, they're here in our house,
and all they're doing is playingvideo games with my son.
Like, I can do that.
But you know, after that, welearned why that 20-minute pause
or 15-minute pause to play avideo game was important.
And now, fast forward fourmonths, it's I don't want to say
that like our therapists arepart of our family because
(10:46):
they're not, but you know, we'vegotten to know them, they've
gotten to know us, and so nowit's so when they show up, I'm
like, Come right in, doors open,you know, kick off your shoes.
And so there is a routine, andit's like anything else you do.
Once the routine has started andyou're used to it, it just kind
of goes.
SPEAKER_03 (11:02):
I felt the same way.
I mean, not as outwardly.
I was putzing around too, but Iwas just like keeping busy
because it's like I didn't know,am I participating all the time?
Do I let them be?
Like I didn't want to hover andbe overbearing, but I also
didn't want to like just goupstairs or something.
SPEAKER_00 (11:16):
Well, that's the other thing, too.
I mean, this therapy isn't onlyfor him.
Right.
You know, it's for us too.
And I think that's what I didn'tfully understand at first, too.
Because in my mind, I don't needto be here while he's doing
this, but you know, for us too,we're able to step into role
play with him, which is reallynice because not only is it
helping him, but it's helping uslearn why his brain thinks
(11:39):
certain ways, why when he getsstressed out, you know, he'll go
into shutdown mode or go intopanic mode or cry mode.
And you know, and it sucks whenhe does have those things
because especially when he'scrying, because all I want to do
is console him, but they'rethere to help him work to a
figure out what is making himget so emotional that he's
(12:00):
crying, but also to snap him outof it, you know, to where well,
not so much to snap him out ofit, but to give him the tools to
learn how to work through it.
You know, if he's at school andsomething like that happens.
SPEAKER_03 (12:12):
Yeah, I mean, I think that was the biggest thing
is like at first we didn'tunderstand what was going on
because we were just like, whatare they doing?
And that like I mentioned, ABAis a play-based and it's focused
on social skills andcommunication and independence,
not being like, we're not gonnado this.
Like, we're not gonna jump upand down on the couch right now
because you can't sit still.
(12:33):
We are not going to have thesefeelings because you should be
able to walk upstairs in yourown house by yourself.
Like it's not a matter of rightor wrong, it's helping him build
the skills that he'll need inlife.
I mean, this is such adetrimental time, in my opinion,
because he's young.
It's such an important time forhim to learn these skills so he
can apply them and be anindependent, functioning adult.
SPEAKER_00 (12:54):
Confident.
SPEAKER_03 (12:56):
Confident, yes.
And I think one of the mainreasons that drove us to this
therapy too is we did kind ofknow going into it that our hope
was that it would help us helphim.
We knew it wasn't going to behands-off.
It just wasn't very clear in thebeginning how do we fit into
these actual sessions.
But that's I also think why ABAtherapy sometimes gets bad rap,
or at least from talking to ourtherapist, one of our therapists
(13:17):
kind of just shared a little bitabout that and how, and I didn't
fully understand that otherpeople had negative connotations
about ABA.
I just, it was recommended.
I guess I found what I needed tohear, and we've had a good
experience once we've gotten agroup of things.
But I think a lot of people havelike an ick towards it just
because they think it's gonnachange who your child is, and
(13:38):
it's like it's for the benefitof your child.
I mean, I've seen my childstressed and scared and anxious,
and I don't want him to feelthat way.
Like, that's not changing hispersonality, that's giving him
skills to cope with things thatare difficult for him.
And I know that you and I kindof got to a point from that age
six year to age seven year, inbetween those evaluations and
moving forward of like, okay, wehave the information of this
(13:59):
diagnosis.
We don't love labels, but we arestarting to recognize that he
needs additional help in certainareas.
And it was getting to the pointwhere it was overwhelming for
us, right?
We and it was also nocoincidence, we also have a
third child now.
And so we can't always, we don'talways know what to do.
And it was a very high stresssituation.
And I know we were both startingto feel like I don't want to be
(14:20):
getting mad at him for somethingthat he a can't control or B, it
like we don't understand.
SPEAKER_01 (14:26):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (14:26):
Because a lot of times from the eye, it's like,
okay, he can't put a sock on andhe's having a full-blown
meltdown on the ground and won'tgo to school.
It's it used to look like oh mygosh, hunter, focus, put your
sock on, like, let's do this.
We gotta go to school.
When in reality, he's havinglike a big reaction to a sensory
feeling, or or it has nothing todo with the sock, and he's just
feeling overwhelmed with a timecrunch, or it could be all sorts
(14:49):
of things.
And now we are able to see this.
Well, it doesn't actually happenas much because he's already in
these few months have learnedtools to kind of cope himself
when he's in these certainsituations.
SPEAKER_00 (15:01):
And it's also provided us with tools to help
him navigate when he is insidehis own head and then he can't
get out of whatever scenariohe's concocted.
And that's one thing for mepersonally, where you know, my
patience level used to be, youknow, I go zero to ninety
because that's all I knew.
Yeah, you know, and now, youknow, just sitting in and
(15:21):
listening or listening from afaris provided me with the tools
and things that I can do to helphim self-regulate.
Hell to even help myselfself-regulate.
SPEAKER_03 (15:30):
I'm not even kidding.
This is so true.
Listening to some of thesessions, I was like, oh, that's
a pretty good idea when I'mfeeling a little anxiety.
SPEAKER_00 (15:38):
You know, like one example uh she gave him that he
applied yesterday was if he isfeeling anxious, go run his
hands under cold water or youknow, go splash cold uh water on
his face.
SPEAKER_03 (15:49):
And I was like, Yeah, I could probably do that
too.
Yeah, that was a pretty coollesson that they did because he
was having a hard time.
And this is the thing, when youwere working with therapists 11
hours a week, they really get toknow him.
It was interesting because forthe first month of therapy, you
know, because he's highfunctioning and is very like
good at playing whatever role heneeds to play, I'll say, like in
that moment.
(16:09):
Again, if he's at school, he cando his best.
He knows to be in his seat anddo what he's supposed to do as
it's happening.
And that's what he did withtherapists.
But as he got more comfortablewith them, you know, he's being
himself.
If he's tired, if he's notfeeling the lesson, he's gonna
act down, he's gonna say things.
And he also got more comfortablewith just how he was reacting to
things.
And so just by like default,they naturally were seeing some
(16:32):
of the things that we've dealtwith at home, where he's like
shut down and had these almostlike panic attacks and things
like that.
That lesson specifically wasreally interesting because it
was the first time that he'd hadlike a big episode where he is
really just like retreating.
I don't even know how to likesay it any other way, like runs
to the other room, he hit hishead from like diving on the
couch, and then he backedhimself into a corner and like
(16:54):
he was having such strongemotions that he didn't know how
to bring them down and he washeavy breathing and all this
stuff.
And I mean, even the therapistwas trying different things
because it's her first time likeseeing him be like this.
And it it's always feels shittyas a parent because you're like
looking at your kid and you'relike, I don't know how to help
him, like I don't know what thebest thing is right now.
(17:14):
And they're looking at you like,has this happened before?
Like, do you know what to do?
And I'm like, it has happenedbefore, and I don't know what to
do.
This is why we're here.
SPEAKER_00 (17:21):
Exactly.
Yeah, I was just about to saythat.
Like, I know I have no idea whatto do.
That's you know, not to say it'syour job, like help me help him,
you know.
SPEAKER_03 (17:28):
Yeah, well, and I think this is the other thing
that kind of guided us towardsthis AVA therapy is because this
has happened at least to mepreviously before therapy in
school, where like he'd havesomething going on, or even at a
practice or something, and thecoach or a teacher would look at
me and been like, What do younormally do in this situation?
Or what can I do to help him?
And I'm like, uh uh, I don'tknow.
(17:48):
I don't, I wish I knew.
I know him, but I don't know.
And it's kind of ever-changingtoo as he matures and grows up.
Like a four-year-old tantrumfrom toddler or a four-year-old
fear is not the same as aseven-year-old fear for him.
And so we're always learning.
But that being said, it's nicebecause now every therapy
session is structured.
So they've got like a board.
(18:08):
And I already knew this, andwe've done this in our own house
with different kinds of visuals,whether it's a schedule for the
day or like what tasks need tohappen morning and night.
I mean, we started that whenthey were like in preschool, and
it's really helpful.
So that's what they do.
They have like a schedule and hegets to pick the order that they
do it, but he has these 10 boxesthat he needs to check off.
And some of these boxes, likeone, for example, is stopping a
(18:30):
preferred activity.
So he gets 20 minutes of videogames or something, and then he
gets his check on there if hestops his preferred activity
when he's supposed to.
So we work a lot with timers aswell because transitions is a
really hard thing.
Very hard.
And that was becoming verydifficult with starting
elementary school because wehave to be places at certain
(18:50):
times and startingextracurriculars, which was hard
because most of the time, allthe time, Hunter would be fine
once he's there.
He's loves to try new things,he's really good at just putting
himself in a new situation.
But getting there and beingthere and having what you need,
wearing what you need, being ontime, I mean it was just like a
whole thing.
So the way they run theirtherapy sessions is checking off
(19:11):
these boxes, and it changesevery time.
But every session is a newlesson.
And at the beginning, they gaveus this big social skills book
to go through.
And I went through and basicallypulled out like 20 different
lessons that I thought lookedlike something that would
benefit Hunter and for wherehe's at.
And I think where we're at nowis we have like one lesson left
before we start to revisitimportant lessons, or even the
(19:35):
therapists will be adding somethat they think will be
beneficial or build on skillshe's already learned.
But yeah, that being said, Imean, I'm curious.
I know what I've noticed, butwhat changes have you noticed in
him since starting therapy?
Like even little things.
SPEAKER_00 (19:49):
Yeah, even the example that I so last night I
took the boys to thepediatrician.
We had to get our flu shots, andyou know, I went first, it's no
big deal.
Daddy can take it.
And Hunter went, but he was verynervous at first.
And it's so funny the terms thathe uses because he was breathing
in and out, he was taking deepbreaths, put his hands under the
cold water, he washed his hands.
SPEAKER_01 (20:11):
Without being prompted, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (20:13):
Just just him doing it, got his shot and was like,
that wasn't so bad.
And I was like, Yeah, I toldyou.
But what was really cool on theway home, he was like, Dad, and
he's like, Did you see how wellI self-regulated myself?
And first off, did he use that?
Yeah, that's yeah.
I'm like, seriously, I'm like,seven years old, self-regulate.
SPEAKER_03 (20:29):
And I was like, Yes, we are still learning to
regulate our emotions.
SPEAKER_00 (20:33):
Right.
And you know, and I think that'sone of the best times to give
him praise because he is takingwhat he's learned and uh and
applying it in a you know, in atough situation.
You know, what kid wants to geta shot, right?
Right.
It that just blew my mind, youknow.
SPEAKER_03 (20:47):
I know the first thing he said when he came home
from that, I was like, How'd itgo?
And he said, Well, you'll be soproud.
I used my tools.
SPEAKER_01 (20:53):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (20:54):
And I was like, You used your tools?
Like, because we always talkabout he's got all these tools
that he can apply.
I don't know if it's helpful ornot yet, but one of the things I
say to try and remind himsometimes is like, just use one
of your tools.
Because he does have days wherehe just says, I can't.
I can't, I can't, I can't.
One of our biggest struggleslately has been his fear, and
it's a fear that wasn't alwaysthere, but literally like it's a
(21:16):
fear of being alone in ourhouse, meaning like being in a
room alone.
He won't go upstairs if nobody'sup there with him.
He sometimes won't even go intothe bathroom alone to brush his
teeth if no one's in there withhim.
And as you can imagine, familyof five, getting three people
out the door with their ownschedules, we can't like follow
him around the house to getthings done.
SPEAKER_00 (21:36):
It's a little crippling.
But on the flip side of thatcoin, he can walk out our front
door and go to our neighbor'shouse.
So no problem.
He can when we did our littlestaycation, he can get out of
the pool and go walk a hundredyards away from us, no problem.
But in our home, he can't go tothe next room.
SPEAKER_03 (21:53):
But I don't know about you, but honestly, when
he's done that, that just forhas reminded me that his brain
is wired differently becauseI've had to look it up and it's
actually called elopement inautism.
And it's when people on thespectrum will wander or will
walk off, whether that's toavoid like a sensory overload or
anxiety, fear, or just like aninterest, which is funny because
(22:16):
when I look back, there's somany things in hindsight now.
The more we learn, I look backand like, you know, two-year-old
Hunter.
I remember the first time whenhe was like old enough to, or
maybe he was three, two orthree, old enough to walk in the
airport, but still young.
And I was like, there's no way Ineed to put him in a stroller.
He would be off and he would sayhi to every stranger and he
would be gone.
Like, and I just always thought,like, you know, you know him.
(22:37):
He's just, he's so friendly andhe's so confident.
And then the same thing too withlike little boys.
I'm like, little boys are alwaysrunning off.
I can't even control them.
Like, no, like there was thatthere was never a fear in there.
His brain is just wireddifferently.
And so it's interesting becausewe're learning, because without
learning all of this and justhow his brain's wired and how it
works, you know, we're like,what in the world?
(22:58):
Are we not providing a safe homefor him?
Like, why is he more comfortableout and about without us than he
is like in a room alone in ahouse where we're all in?
And the only lesson we've reallyseen a big reaction from is the
week they focused on fear.
And he learned about a trueemergency versus a false
emergency because we had acouple times where he like
(23:20):
didn't know where we were in thehouse.
Or I told him to his face, like,okay, you're in here playing on
your tablet.
I'm going to be right on thedriveway cleaning out the car.
And he says, Okay.
Like, we connected, he said it,and then two minutes later, he's
running around the house in apanic trying to find me, and
he's scared.
That example, I was outside andhe came running outside, not
(23:42):
after first waking up his sisterwho was narrowing because he
went into the room looking forme.
But there's been two times nowwhere he is scared that he
doesn't know where we are, justtruly based off of
miscommunication or notlistening.
Uh, I'm not sure, just didn'tregister.
And then he goes into panic modeand he has walked out of the
house one time, literally wentto our neighbor's house not
(24:04):
knowing where we were, askingfor help.
And the second time I kind ofcaught him in the middle of it,
and it was just him and I,because he was homesick from
school this couple weeks ago,and I was putting Lorelai down
for a nap.
And I said, All right, Hunter,he didn't want to be downstairs
by himself.
So I said, Why don't you do yourtablet in your room?
I'll be in in a few minutesafter I put Lorelai down.
Well, where he got a littleconfused, I guess, is because I
(24:27):
did have to run back downstairsto grab her blanket, and I came
back up, and for whateverreason, that flipped a switch of
like everything I said didn'tmatter.
And then I heard the door open.
I'm like in her room and all ofa sudden I hear movement.
I hear him walk down the stairsand then I hear the door.
And then a minute later it likeclicked me, and I was like, oh
my gosh, she's probably lookingfor me.
(24:47):
Yeah.
And sure enough, I open the doorand he's walking down the
driveway.
And you had been calling me.
Again, I'm like trying to putLoreline out for now.
You're calling me because you'reseeing the ring camera go off
and you're out of town.
You're like, what is Hunterdoing?
He's just like walking up.
SPEAKER_00 (25:01):
Yeah, I literally, I literally walk, see him go out
the front door, like walk on thepatio area and then walk down
the driveway.
I'm like, what the hell is hedoing?
SPEAKER_03 (25:10):
See, and that's what I didn't I didn't see the first
part.
I just saw him walking down thedriveway, and I was like, oh my
gosh, he's going to theneighbor's house again because
he doesn't know he forgot whereI was.
I'm literally in the room acrossthe hall.
The door was just closed.
But what he had told me later,and which must make sense after
seeing the ring camera, is thathe did go outside and he sat on
the front porch in the rockingchair and he tried to take deep
(25:31):
breaths and calm himself down.
And he kept thinking, Do I needto go to the neighbor's house?
Or like, is this okay?
Like, I don't want mom to worryabout where I'm at.
Like, he had a whole secondthought process that he's never
done before.
Ultimately, obviously, he didstart walking down the driveway
because that's when I cameoutside and I was like, Hunter,
where are you going?
And I had a talk with him aboutit, and he truly had no
(25:54):
recollection of like wow.
He said he looked all over thehouse.
And the thing is, I asked myfriend, Chat GPT, when I was
trying to figure out how to havethis conversation with him
afterwards and just trying tounderstand it better.
I was like, why does he feelsafer walking out the front door
by himself than staying in thehome?
Even if you can't find me, likeyou're in your home, it's your
(26:14):
safe space, or it should be.
And really, it's just a matterof how your brain works.
It's kind of like a fight orflight, and he already is
anxious inside when he's alone.
And so for him, being outsidejust feels better to him and
because he's not knocked in anenclosed area.
Yeah, I mean, but on the flipside, this is why we have all
these therapies too, is to alsokeep him safe, which I'm now
(26:36):
remembering was another bigdriving force of us wanting him
to have assistance in certainthings, especially social
skills, because as he getsolder, we don't want him talking
to strangers.
And no, just he needs to knowthat different relationships
with people are differentbecause we have witnessed him
treat a grandparent the same ashe treats a male man.
(26:57):
Yeah, that's been helpful too.
But that was a big learningmoment and change that I've
noticed in him is that he ispausing and thinking, hold on,
am I safe?
And so every session theyrevisit these lessons too, and
they're different lessons.
And so the therapist had askedme, is there a certain specific
lesson you want to revisit thisweek?
Maybe something that has come upin the last week or so.
So I told her about that exactscenario.
(27:18):
And they revisited a fixedmindset versus a growth mindset,
a true emergency versus a falseemergency.
And he was able to open up tothe therapist too and us about
kind of his thought process.
And so I learned more about whathappened.
And what we did is we talkedabout a safe space in the house.
So, like if he's upstairsbecause he said he feels safe in
(27:39):
his bed, but he didn't see me.
And so we've come up with a safeplace where he can put a blanket
around him in the family room ifhe is feeling anxious.
And if that's not working, atthe very least, he can go on our
back deck, but not to just walkout the front door and be off
and go finding a neighbor oranyone.
Anyone.
(27:59):
So it's a lot, and I thinksomething with someone on the
spectrum who is very highfunctioning, a lot of people
don't understand a lot of thethings that go on.
Like I'll say at home, becauseat school, um play dates, in
sports, it's not as often thesethings arise, at least at this
(28:20):
age level.
I'm sure as he ages and peersage, you know, there will be
things that will come up moreand more.
But yeah, it's a lot.
But it is really cool learningthat he's he's learning calming
techniques and he's learning howto stay focused and how to get
things done and just using histools, meaning like make a list,
(28:41):
take deep breaths.
I'm trying to think of some ofthe other things that oh, taking
breaks, like doing a calmingactivity and then going back to
an energetic activity.
SPEAKER_00 (28:49):
Compromise.
SPEAKER_03 (28:50):
Oh, another big one is learning to advocate for
himself.
And this one I've been reallyproud of him for because I
forget where we were.
He had to do something.
I don't know if it was a dentistappointment or something.
And he said, Okay, can you justgive me a second?
I just need to take like a fewdeep breaths.
I just need to calm down for asecond.
SPEAKER_00 (29:10):
That's what he did last night before he got his
shot.
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (29:12):
And so just learning to be open about that.
And even at school, I think itwas like the first few weeks of
school, his teacher noticed thathe was having a little bit of a
hard time following the morningroutine, you know, making sure
his backpack is hung up, likekind of the same thing we deal
with at home, but the schoolversion of it, those first like
15 minutes of the day.
So she talked with him and shemade this like visual on his
desk.
(29:32):
And I think there's one or twoother kids in the classroom who
have something similar.
And he says, Yeah, no, thatshould be fine.
Like, I'm okay with that.
You can make that for me and putit on my desk.
So she does.
And I guess she used just likesome emojis to match the steps
or something.
And he told her nicely, but hesaid, Um, yeah, I just don't
(29:53):
think that's gonna work for me.
And she's like, Oh no, like, whynot, Hunter?
I thought we talked about this.
And he was like, I just I don'tlike the pictures on it.
Like, I'm not in kindergarten.
You know, so he was advocatingfor self saying that like that
embarrasses me.
I don't want that on my desk.
I'm okay with some help, but Idon't want it to be this big
production.
SPEAKER_01 (30:14):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (30:14):
Um, so I'm just like really proud of him and seeing
him grow in that because that'sa big skill to learn at very
proud of it.
At seven, I mean, everyoneshould know to advocate for
themselves.
What are some lessons thatsurprised you that you were
like, oh yeah, it seems sosimple, but you're right.
Like he could benefit from this.
Does there any that stick out toyou?
SPEAKER_00 (30:35):
Um, well, I mean, just the the compromised one
because he gets, you know, andhas fixed a mindset or
Minecraft, like he's obsessed.
That's all he's gonna do.
Right now he is.
SPEAKER_03 (30:45):
He always has in like his current obsession, but
yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (30:48):
Yeah, and that's all he wants to do.
And like you know, Dad, he'slike, all I thought about today
was Minecraft at school, and I'mlike, ugh.
Thought about something else,and then when he gets home, you
know, the boy's gonna playNintendo, which is fine.
But if Noah doesn't say a word,Hunter will play Minecraft until
the sun comes up, and so youknow, they'd be talking about
compromise, and we know you'reexcited to do this, but there's
(31:09):
other people, not just you.
And I think that was an ahamoment for him to be able to say
share and compromise with myyounger brother that wants to do
something else.
So that was that was a nicelesson.
SPEAKER_03 (31:19):
Yeah, and I think like that one is just one of
those things too that like againseems obvious, but the more we
learn about him, because fromour perspective as parents, I
just feel like if I was seeingthem play Minecraft, I'm like,
uh, well, Noah's just happy tobe playing with him, so he'll
just, you know, play whateverand they seem to be having fun.
But again, he's learning life'ssocial skills.
So when he's at a friend'shouse, when he's trying to form
(31:42):
relationships and make friends,you know, you can't just be all
about you and all aboutyourself.
And role play comes up in everynew lesson, that's how they do
it.
And it took him a good likemonth to get on board with role
play.
And honestly, even justrecently, he's participating
fully himself.
Cause then we kind of transitionto like one of us and the
therapist acting something out,and then he has to identify,
(32:02):
say, who's compromising, who'snot, like things like that.
And now he is acting things outand participating, and it's just
really good practice becausehe's gonna run on totals in
these situations with his peersand other people and his world.
One of the lessons that reallysurprised me, which made so much
sense, but like I didn't thinkabout too much because there was
a bigger fish to drive, was hiswhole lesson on sarcasm.
(32:26):
Because a lot of times people onthe spectrum don't pick up on
things like that.
They don't pick up on socialcues or tone of voice or body
language.
So he's been learning a lotabout that, about postures and
gestures.
And every session they do thisthing where they're looking at a
picture, like a scene, and theyhave to identify kind of what
might be going on in the scenebased off of body language and
(32:47):
facial expressions and thingslike that.
But we've always kind of knownthat we've always said, even
since he was little, oh my gosh,Hunter, you're so literal.
Like he's so literal.
He takes everything literally.
Well, it's because he genuinelyis just like not picking up
picking up on that, and not justsarcasm, but like phrases too.
SPEAKER_00 (33:03):
Or even like tones, right?
You know, we talked to him in astern voice, I mean that there's
no he doesn't, I don't want toraise a normal kid, but you
know, a kid who's not on thecircle was typical kid.
Yeah, typical normal.
Yeah, they pick up on like, oh,that is a test, or yeah, right.
SPEAKER_03 (33:20):
Well, the other thing too, I always worried
about is just like interactionswith kids at school.
You know, they might be like,wow, that's really cool.
And really they're beingsarcastic and they don't mean
it.
And I think that was my thinkingtoo, is like just as he gets
older.
I mean, luckily, you know,kindergarten first grade, second
grade seems to be going okay,but like overall, everyone's
(33:40):
they're young, they're eitherit's going over his head at this
point, or um, I mean, he doeshave a lot of friends.
He's just so nice, so kind.
I mean, even this teacher saidhe's a joy to be have in class,
and everyone, he's alwaystalking with everybody.
But yeah, there's just a lotthat you don't think about, a
lot to learn, and it's a lot forhim.
But and I think that's probablywhy some people kind of might
(34:02):
view this as I don't know, whatdid I hear somebody or what did
I read somebody say on aFacebook group?
Just well, that's cruel.
Like ABA therapy is cool andit's so demanding and all this
stuff.
And maybe that is some oneperson's perception if maybe
their child isn't as highfunctioning.
SPEAKER_00 (34:15):
Or maybe truly just got a shitty therapist.
SPEAKER_03 (34:17):
And maybe that too.
We've had a really greatexperience with our team, but
also from what our therapistshave shared, there are so many
parents who kind of just handtheir kids over and are like,
Can you fix them?
And we never came into it likethat.
We were like, we need the toolsto handle this better because we
don't want yelling in our house.
We don't want him to feel anykind of way other than confident
and supported, and it's taking atoll on the whole family.
(34:40):
And that's the other nice thingis that it is a family therapy
because they'll bring in Noah.
Noah will get to play games withthem too.
He's always listening.
He just busted out likesomething about compromise and
how they could compromise theother day.
And it's just really helpful.
But yeah, the controversy aroundit, like if you search ABA
therapy online, you will findparents saying that it's
life-changing and then otherssaying that it's harmful.
(35:02):
But I do want to emphasize thatlike ABA today, from what I
read, is not like the oldcompliance-based model.
We're always involved in thesessions, like we said, and
we're always making sure it'schild-led, kind, and effective.
Our therapist celebratesprogress and like never punishes
behavior and adjusts constantlyto meet his needs.
(35:23):
The week that he worked on thefear lesson, which was a really
hard one, they spread it outover three or four sessions, and
then they did not revisit itbecause truly that week was the
only time that he had tears likeevery day in the session.
And it wasn't because he wasafraid, it was because he was
being pushed to do somethingthat's really, really hard.
(35:45):
Yes.
And so they pivoted, theyswitched the schedule, they
said, we're gonna table this,we're not gonna do this again.
They cut it short and we'regonna build on his other skills
to give him the confidence andwork our way back to it.
And I think we're getting therenow to revisit.
But I just really appreciatethat they are always like
positive behavior, supportinghim, building him up and
adjusting when needed.
(36:05):
We kind of touched on this, butwould you say that we've learned
to better advocate for himbecause of this therapy?
SPEAKER_00 (36:11):
100%.
SPEAKER_03 (36:12):
I've noticed it in you.
I hope you've noticed it in me,but like even my mom said, I
haven't even told you this yet.
But the other day we were, I washot in Halloween.
We were with family, and my momhad gotten all the grandkids
like matching pajamas to put on,and we were trying to surprise
my dad, and you were helpingthem downstairs.
And my mom said to me later,like, I'm so proud of Josh.
He was telling Hunter to takedeep breaths, and he was just
(36:34):
being kind and patient and likejust supporting him.
SPEAKER_00 (36:38):
Thanks, mom.
SPEAKER_03 (36:39):
Shout out to them.
I mean, that didn't surprise mebecause I've noticed a change in
you.
We are both trying to apply whatwe learned, and it's definitely
given me a different lens tolook through.
You know, I'm not quick toanger, I'm not quick to get
frustrated.
It doesn't make it any easierbecause it is hard, but at least
we now have a better outlook andwe have our own tool also have
(37:01):
our own tool.
SPEAKER_01 (37:01):
Correct.
SPEAKER_03 (37:02):
Yeah, for sure.
That being said, what do youthink has helped us the most as
parents, not just him?
I mean, because we do have ourown tools, like you mentioned.
He has learned so much.
What do you think has helped usthe most so far?
SPEAKER_00 (37:15):
I mean, personally, I mean, it's just watching him
interact with the therapist andthen just listening because
again, there's lots of things Ididn't understand.
And, you know, maybe I have myown fixed mindset when the
beginning of ABA therapy.
But I think what's helped mepersonally is just to again take
my time with them, you know, notbe so quickly upset over some
task and take the time and if heneeds a minute, be there for him
(37:39):
and not put my feelings beforehis because you know what, as a
parent, it's not about usanymore, right?
It's just being there for themand then give them every tool
and feel support and feel love,everything he needs to do to be
a successful human.
SPEAKER_03 (37:52):
I completely agree, and I think it's definitely
helped me be more patient.
And I think for both of us, I'venoticed we we don't say this
anymore, like, why would you dothat?
Or why is this hard for you?
We'd never say why.
We'd be like, How did that makeyou feel?
Like we're we're more so comingat it feelings-based as to like
logistically, becauselogistically it doesn't make
sense to us, and it's not fair,he can't explain it like he is
(38:15):
who he is, and he's learning whohe is too.
And I guess it should bementioned because we didn't like
at the beginning of thisepisode, we talked about how he
was first diagnosed at age six.
We didn't say anything to himuntil seven, seven, like right
before second grade.
I think it was.
It was recently he had a brokenarm and we were talking about
something, and I don't know howit came up.
(38:36):
I forget how the conversationstarted, but basically I was
like, Yeah, have you heard theword autism before?
He goes, Yeah, no, I've heardit.
He's like, I don't know what itmeans.
Because at one point thetherapist asked me, does he know
that he's on the spectrum?
Does he know these words?
Should I say them out loud orshould I not?
Do you need help having thisconversation?
And for the longest time, wejust weren't sure what to do.
And I think it was just our ownfears about, like we mentioned,
(38:58):
like I didn't want to label himor make him feel less than.
But what we forgot is that he'shunter and he like didn't take
it that way at all.
Not only was it not that big ofa deal when I told him, but
honestly, this was his reaction.
First, he goes, Well, are youautistic?
And I said, Well, no, to myknowledge.
I said, Mommy and daddy didn'treally know about this when we
(39:20):
were younger, so no.
And he goes, Is Noah?
And I was like, Not that weknow.
And he goes, Well, I hope he'snot, because I want to be
special.
SPEAKER_01 (39:27):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (39:28):
And then, of course, we did talk about ADHD too.
And I was like, and daddy hasADHD, you have an uncle with
ADHD.
It's just how your brain works.
And we've read other books thatdidn't necessarily say it, but
like, my brain is faster than mybody, or my brain is my
superpower, or everyone'sbrain's wired differently.
Like, we have talked aboutneurodivergence in general.
We just never said, like, yourbrain is neurodivergent, but
(39:51):
he's very smart, he loves it.
I don't think he's at a point orhas the need to be like, because
I kind of thought this was myother fear at first was that he
would be like everyone.
Yeah, that he'd be like, hi, I'mHunter, I'm on the autalon
channel.
SPEAKER_00 (40:04):
Yeah, I don't think it doesn't faze him whatsoever.
SPEAKER_03 (40:06):
He does not like label himself.
It's if anything, it was justlike a cool tidbit he learned,
like, oh, my brain works likethat.
That's cool.
Yeah.
Which also brings up because youknow, he's never really dove in
and asked, like, why am I intherapy?
And Noah's not.
Or why am I doing this?
Like, he really just does it.
And part of it might be too, islike, again, our little 24
(40:29):
weaker has always been in somesort of therapy.
Always.
Like, it's not that out of theit's not like it came out of
nowhere.
He's always been in somethingfor something.
So that could be why too.
All this to say, if you're aparent considering ABA or
honestly any therapy really, ourbiggest advice, I would say to
you is just trust your gut.
(40:50):
Don't get sucked into all thedifferent things you read
online, do your own research,find what's best for you, find a
therapist who values your input,respects your child's comfort,
and focuses on progress, notperfection.
What would you say to anotherdad or parent starting this
journey?
Like at the very beginning,starting it.
SPEAKER_00 (41:09):
I would say don't be afraid of what you don't know.
And also, I mean, everythingthat you're doing, you're doing
it for your child or children togive them their best life
experience.
And especially starting it soyoung, he is gonna have an
opportunity to feel better inhis own skin.
And the earlier you start it,you know, the more that it's
(41:30):
gonna take an effect and it'sgonna stick and it's gonna be
applied.
SPEAKER_03 (41:33):
That's really great advice.
Yeah.
And know that when you're goinginto an AVA therapy, it's okay
to be nervous about it.
Finding the right therapist isgoing to make a world of a
difference.
So don't settle if it doesn'tfeel like it's working for you.
But really just go into it withthe mindset that this is for
your family.
You're doing this together.
(41:53):
It's not something you're doingjust to your child or for your
child.
It's for your child and for you.
It's for everyone to learn fromeach other.
I like to think of it as likewe're getting to know each other
better and we're just helpingour household run more
peacefully and making sureeveryone's at peace because it
was getting really hard to watchnot just our son, but even
(42:14):
ourselves struggle with everydaytasks.
And it's all just because of alack of knowledge.
The more we learn about how allof our brains work, and the more
we learn about how to help himand things he might struggle
with, it's helping us too withskills that we might not even
taught as children.
So just keep that in mind.
And of course, as always, Ipreach this on the podcast
(42:37):
always, but you're not alone inthis.
Every child's path is unique andthere's no one size fits all
approach.
So what matters most is thatyour child feels loved and
supported.
Thanks, listeners, for tuningin.
I encourage you to send me amessage or share your own
experience.
If you've done ABA or if youhave a child on the spectrum and
(42:58):
have any questions or can shareyour insights, I would love to
pass them along onto thispodcast so other people can kind
of get some more insight intothis therapy.
The spectrum is very big andeveryone's experience is
different.
So please feel free to send mean email at hello at
motherhoodintended.com or sendme a message on Instagram.
I would love to hear from you.
(43:19):
And if you found thisconversation helpful, share it
with another parent who might bewondering if ABA is right for
their family.
Thanks again for listening.
I'm going to put some links inthe show notes to resources that
might point you in the rightdirection if you're considering
this as an option for yourfamily.
Josh, thanks for joining me onthe podcast again.
SPEAKER_00 (43:38):
Thanks, Dave.
SPEAKER_03 (43:39):
I always love chatting with you.
We're gonna be talking about things like
identity, infertility, IDF,surrogacy, mom life support.
I'm gonna get real about what ittakes to be a mom and put
together with the fact thatthings don't always go as
planned.
So here we go.
SPEAKER_03 (00:35):
Hey friends, welcome back to Motherhood Intended.
As you know, I'm your host,Jaclyn, and today I've got my
husband, Josh, joining me againon the show.
SPEAKER_00 (00:43):
Hey guys, great to be back on my wife's podcast.
SPEAKER_03 (00:46):
We are having quite the couple weeks here.
Um sorry if I sound nasally,sorry if this episode sounds a
little different.
We are quite literally playingworkspace roulette in our house
right now.
If you've listened to thepodcast for a while now, you'll
know that the office, which islike the recording space, uh
ebbs and flows with being puttogether and becoming a closet.
Right now we're in the closetphase, which usually happens
(01:08):
right before the holidaysbecause we don't know where to
put things.
We're changing out seasons ofclothes.
One's at school, one's homesick,and one kid is napping.
So we are downstairs at our newdesk space that is in our living
room.
As you can hear, I'm a littlenasally getting over a cold.
But yeah, this last week or twohas been a doozy mess.
Yeah, it started with Huntergetting sick.
(01:29):
Um, he was down for the countfor like five, six days.
Now Noah's sick.
In the meantime, I've had reallyjust a head cold.
Just enough to like be annoying,but you know, still be able to
do what I need to do.
SPEAKER_00 (01:40):
The best thing we've done thus far is keeping Lorelai
from getting sick.
SPEAKER_03 (01:43):
Yeah, that really has been a win, and you haven't
gotten sick either.
SPEAKER_00 (01:46):
No.
SPEAKER_03 (01:46):
So that is good.
But other than that, I don'tknow.
What's new, Josh?
What's what's going on in ourlife right now?
SPEAKER_00 (01:53):
I would say the biggest thing going on in our
lives right now is the topic ofthe day.
What we're gonna discuss.
SPEAKER_03 (01:59):
Topic of the day, yes.
So when I was trying to decidewhat I I had to do a little
switching around of our podcastschedule, and I was trying to
decide what was top of mind forme and what I wanted to talk
about.
I had a few different ideas, butthe topic of ABA therapy came
up.
And it's a top of mind, likeJosh said, because our oldest
son is in ABA therapy and it'sin-home therapy, and it's about
(02:21):
11 hours a week.
So that has become a big part ofour lives.
And how long has he been doingit now?
Just trying to think.
SPEAKER_00 (02:29):
I had to guess at least three months, maybe four.
It probably has been maybe four,yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (02:34):
Yeah, because it started before school, right?
SPEAKER_00 (02:37):
Yes, it did.
It started in August.
So yeah, four months.
SPEAKER_03 (02:39):
Yeah, we're on the fourth month, which is wild.
11 hours a week.
It's a lot of time for him, it'sa lot of time for us.
It's become even more so nowthat you know the last few
months was school.
We wanted to talk about thattoday, just for anybody who
might be interested in what ABAtherapy is, or for anybody else
who has a child on the autismspectrum and might be interested
(03:00):
in ABA as a resource.
So yeah, today we just wanted tohave an honest conversation
about this therapy.
We've recently started with ourson, and there's a lot of mixed
opinions out there about it,especially what I've noticed in
the autism parent community inFacebook groups and stuff.
I don't totally get why.
I know what people are sayingabout it, but from our
(03:20):
perspective, we just have had atotally different experience.
As we all know, as parents, it'shard to make sense of what's
best for your child when you'rereading so many conflicting
things online.
So we're just gonna share ourexperience, what ABA really
looks like day to day, what'sbeen helpful for our family, and
then just kind of how we'venavigated the misconceptions
around it.
So, for those who don't knowwhat ABA is, it's applied
(03:43):
behavior analysis, which isreally just understanding why
behaviors happen and teachinghelpful skills through positive
reinforcement.
Modern ABA is more play-based,it's flexible, and it's focused
on communication andindependence, not like robotic
training.
For kids on the spectrum, as youknow, it is a spectrum.
(04:03):
Our son is level one, highfunctioning.
So he has like specific areasthat he needs help with.
And then the spectrum, it's it'sbig.
There could be kids who arenon-verbal and who have a lot
more needs and things that theywill need to work on.
For us, so first we'll just kindof share how we even got here.
So our son, it was about twoyears ago now, almost years ago,
(04:25):
because he'll be eight in March.
So when he was six, we had himevaluated based on the
recommendation of hisoccupational therapist that he
had been working with since hewas like five years old.
So it'd been a year in differenttherapies, and the therapist
suggested that he was definitelystruggling with ADHD.
She didn't think autism, butafter reading things and just
(04:46):
knowing my own son's history andum risks, and again, there's a
lot of debate about the originof autism, hereditary
circumstances, a combination ofthe both.
Um, I just remember the firsttime I heard that word was when
he was born at 24 weeks.
They were at risk for a lot ofdifferent developmental things.
So we had him evaluated, and itwas then at age six that we
(05:08):
found out that he was on theautism spectrum, high
functioning, also a very highIQ, and also ADHD.
And so it was that psychologistthat recommended ABA therapy as
I don't want to say treatment,it's not something you treat, as
something to support him as hemoves through school and life.
But to be completely honest, Ithink when we first got that
(05:30):
initial evaluation done, didn'tit didn't really sink in.
SPEAKER_00 (05:33):
Yeah, we sat on it for about six months.
SPEAKER_03 (05:36):
Yeah, and then there is another podcast episode where
we share the diagnosis and trulyfor like six months, we're just
like, I mean, this changesnothing.
I think if anything, we werevery defensive, not like in
denial defensive, well, maybe alittle.
Or just like we didn't wantanything to change.
We didn't want him to belabeled.
SPEAKER_00 (05:54):
Yeah, I think that was the biggest thing was label.
SPEAKER_03 (05:56):
Yeah, but it was at that time that AVA was the first
time I heard it that it wassuggested.
We kind of put that aside anddigested it for about six
months, and then going intofirst grade, we made his
teachers aware.
We wrote up an about me page,gave it to the support staff,
talked to the school just tomake sure he had what he might
need and make sure that's ontheir radar so they could
support him and still basicallya year, a little over a year
(06:18):
later, we had to have itre-evaluated because insurance
is super fun.
And we couldn't get that kind oftherapy covered by insurance
unless he had an up-to-dateevaluation.
Backstory, it's like over athousand dollars for this
evaluation, at least in oursituation with insurance and
stuff.
Um, so that was fun.
Also, it's a very long day.
I mean, it's five hours ofexercises and me answering
(06:41):
questionnaires and an interviewand just like all sorts of
things.
But I will say the second timehe was evaluated as a
seven-year-old went waydifferently than him as a
six-year-old, which actually wasvery eye-opening to just how he
naturally will grow and matureon his own.
Because when he was six, theycouldn't even do all the tests
because he like shut down and hewas too stressed about anything
(07:03):
that was timed.
But just him being in school, Ithink, for almost two years,
kind of lessened that stress forhim.
SPEAKER_00 (07:10):
Yeah, because I think he was a little more used
to sitting there and having todo something since he was
sitting in class for like, youknow, that six, seven hours a
day.
SPEAKER_03 (07:16):
And I think he was just maybe even a little more
confident in himself in certainareas because initially he
really struggled with needing tobe perfect at all times.
SPEAKER_00 (07:24):
Yeah, that's definitely out the window now,
especially when you see himwrite his name.
SPEAKER_03 (07:27):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So anyway, at age seven, we tookhim back, got evaluated.
Same conclusion, level one, highfunctioning, autism, and ADHD.
And this is when this therapywas presented again.
And so this time we really tookit seriously because he did have
some struggles in the beginningof kindergarten and had some
(07:49):
struggles that kind of went overour heads in first grade, like
that we weren't aware of untilit like he told us like randomly
on a Tuesday, you know, likewhere he was like crying in
class or this or that.
And we we just didn't feel likehe was getting the right
support.
So to make sure that he was, wewe started ABA, we revisited, we
met with the school, all thethings.
So yeah, that's kind of how welanded on ABA therapy.
(08:09):
But I will have to say, like, Ididn't really know anything
about it, other than it was aphrase that came up on like
every parent autism group I wasin.
It was like ABA therapy, ABAtherapy, who has a good
therapist?
Did you know anything about it?
SPEAKER_00 (08:22):
No, I've never heard of it in my life.
SPEAKER_03 (08:24):
Yeah.
I mean, and when I told youabout it, and we knew it'd be an
in-home therapy, and I know forme at first I was like, oh,
that's so nice.
Like that's easier because it'sat home.
But I was in shock when it wasmentioned how many hours a week.
SPEAKER_00 (08:37):
Yeah, that's what took me back.
And yeah, even when they said itwas in-home, I thought it would
be I don't know, an hour once ortwice a week, or not 11 hours,
you know, Monday, Wednesday,Thursday, Saturday.
SPEAKER_03 (08:51):
Yeah, it's become a really big part of our life
together with this therapy goingon.
Now this journey does lookdifferent for everybody because
it was told to us, you know,with our son, he retains
information really well and he'spretty good at applying things
when he can.
Like anyone, things takepractice and it's learning
skills, and skills just don'tyou don't just learn a skill and
(09:13):
then you have it the next day.
It takes practice and habit andswitching the way your mind
thinks a little bit.
But because he is so highfunctioning and very smart, you
know, it's not going to be atherapy he's in forever,
essentially.
SPEAKER_00 (09:25):
And the nice thing is is no, they set the schedule
for six months, and it'll changeon how well he takes what he's
learning and applies it.
Like for if he doesn't take theinformation and apply it, they
could ramp up the hours more.
But I think we're on pace to, inmy opinion, probably have those
hours shortened a little bit.
Because he is really good attaking what he learns and
applies it.
(09:46):
He does it a lot, which isreally nice.
SPEAKER_03 (09:48):
Yeah, and if not like shortening hours, just like
being done with the therapysooner.
SPEAKER_01 (09:53):
Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (09:53):
So at the beginning of therapy, how did you feel
with like the first say likethree weeks?
Because I you were kind of inand out depending on your work
travel.
SPEAKER_00 (10:03):
Yeah, I hated it.
And that was no secret.
For me personally, it took a lotof like I found myself pacing
around my own house because Ifelt weird to be in my own house
because you know, first coupleweeks to me they were a stranger
and I would listen to what theywould talk about and I had to
see what they were doing.
I remember like the first coupleof times they were here, you
know, I saw them playing videogames, and that really broke me
(10:24):
the wrong way.
But also I didn't know the whybehind the what, but I remember
like being so angry, and youknow, they're here in our house,
and all they're doing is playingvideo games with my son.
Like, I can do that.
But you know, after that, welearned why that 20-minute pause
or 15-minute pause to play avideo game was important.
And now, fast forward fourmonths, it's I don't want to say
that like our therapists arepart of our family because
(10:46):
they're not, but you know, we'vegotten to know them, they've
gotten to know us, and so nowit's so when they show up, I'm
like, Come right in, doors open,you know, kick off your shoes.
And so there is a routine, andit's like anything else you do.
Once the routine has started andyou're used to it, it just kind
of goes.
SPEAKER_03 (11:02):
I felt the same way.
I mean, not as outwardly.
I was putzing around too, but Iwas just like keeping busy
because it's like I didn't know,am I participating all the time?
Do I let them be?
Like I didn't want to hover andbe overbearing, but I also
didn't want to like just goupstairs or something.
SPEAKER_00 (11:16):
Well, that's the other thing, too.
I mean, this therapy isn't onlyfor him.
Right.
You know, it's for us too.
And I think that's what I didn'tfully understand at first, too.
Because in my mind, I don't needto be here while he's doing
this, but you know, for us too,we're able to step into role
play with him, which is reallynice because not only is it
helping him, but it's helping uslearn why his brain thinks
(11:39):
certain ways, why when he getsstressed out, you know, he'll go
into shutdown mode or go intopanic mode or cry mode.
And you know, and it sucks whenhe does have those things
because especially when he'scrying, because all I want to do
is console him, but they'rethere to help him work to a
figure out what is making himget so emotional that he's
(12:00):
crying, but also to snap him outof it, you know, to where well,
not so much to snap him out ofit, but to give him the tools to
learn how to work through it.
You know, if he's at school andsomething like that happens.
SPEAKER_03 (12:12):
Yeah, I mean, I think that was the biggest thing
is like at first we didn'tunderstand what was going on
because we were just like, whatare they doing?
And that like I mentioned, ABAis a play-based and it's focused
on social skills andcommunication and independence,
not being like, we're not gonnado this.
Like, we're not gonna jump upand down on the couch right now
because you can't sit still.
(12:33):
We are not going to have thesefeelings because you should be
able to walk upstairs in yourown house by yourself.
Like it's not a matter of rightor wrong, it's helping him build
the skills that he'll need inlife.
I mean, this is such adetrimental time, in my opinion,
because he's young.
It's such an important time forhim to learn these skills so he
can apply them and be anindependent, functioning adult.
SPEAKER_00 (12:54):
Confident.
SPEAKER_03 (12:56):
Confident, yes.
And I think one of the mainreasons that drove us to this
therapy too is we did kind ofknow going into it that our hope
was that it would help us helphim.
We knew it wasn't going to behands-off.
It just wasn't very clear in thebeginning how do we fit into
these actual sessions.
But that's I also think why ABAtherapy sometimes gets bad rap,
or at least from talking to ourtherapist, one of our therapists
(13:17):
kind of just shared a little bitabout that and how, and I didn't
fully understand that otherpeople had negative connotations
about ABA.
I just, it was recommended.
I guess I found what I needed tohear, and we've had a good
experience once we've gotten agroup of things.
But I think a lot of people havelike an ick towards it just
because they think it's gonnachange who your child is, and
(13:38):
it's like it's for the benefitof your child.
I mean, I've seen my childstressed and scared and anxious,
and I don't want him to feelthat way.
Like, that's not changing hispersonality, that's giving him
skills to cope with things thatare difficult for him.
And I know that you and I kindof got to a point from that age
six year to age seven year, inbetween those evaluations and
moving forward of like, okay, wehave the information of this
(13:59):
diagnosis.
We don't love labels, but we arestarting to recognize that he
needs additional help in certainareas.
And it was getting to the pointwhere it was overwhelming for
us, right?
We and it was also nocoincidence, we also have a
third child now.
And so we can't always, we don'talways know what to do.
And it was a very high stresssituation.
And I know we were both startingto feel like I don't want to be
(14:20):
getting mad at him for somethingthat he a can't control or B, it
like we don't understand.
SPEAKER_01 (14:26):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (14:26):
Because a lot of times from the eye, it's like,
okay, he can't put a sock on andhe's having a full-blown
meltdown on the ground and won'tgo to school.
It's it used to look like oh mygosh, hunter, focus, put your
sock on, like, let's do this.
We gotta go to school.
When in reality, he's havinglike a big reaction to a sensory
feeling, or or it has nothing todo with the sock, and he's just
feeling overwhelmed with a timecrunch, or it could be all sorts
(14:49):
of things.
And now we are able to see this.
Well, it doesn't actually happenas much because he's already in
these few months have learnedtools to kind of cope himself
when he's in these certainsituations.
SPEAKER_00 (15:01):
And it's also provided us with tools to help
him navigate when he is insidehis own head and then he can't
get out of whatever scenariohe's concocted.
And that's one thing for mepersonally, where you know, my
patience level used to be, youknow, I go zero to ninety
because that's all I knew.
Yeah, you know, and now, youknow, just sitting in and
(15:21):
listening or listening from afaris provided me with the tools
and things that I can do to helphim self-regulate.
Hell to even help myselfself-regulate.
SPEAKER_03 (15:30):
I'm not even kidding.
This is so true.
Listening to some of thesessions, I was like, oh, that's
a pretty good idea when I'mfeeling a little anxiety.
SPEAKER_00 (15:38):
You know, like one example uh she gave him that he
applied yesterday was if he isfeeling anxious, go run his
hands under cold water or youknow, go splash cold uh water on
his face.
SPEAKER_03 (15:49):
And I was like, Yeah, I could probably do that
too.
Yeah, that was a pretty coollesson that they did because he
was having a hard time.
And this is the thing, when youwere working with therapists 11
hours a week, they really get toknow him.
It was interesting because forthe first month of therapy, you
know, because he's highfunctioning and is very like
good at playing whatever role heneeds to play, I'll say, like in
that moment.
(16:09):
Again, if he's at school, he cando his best.
He knows to be in his seat anddo what he's supposed to do as
it's happening.
And that's what he did withtherapists.
But as he got more comfortablewith them, you know, he's being
himself.
If he's tired, if he's notfeeling the lesson, he's gonna
act down, he's gonna say things.
And he also got more comfortablewith just how he was reacting to
things.
And so just by like default,they naturally were seeing some
(16:32):
of the things that we've dealtwith at home, where he's like
shut down and had these almostlike panic attacks and things
like that.
That lesson specifically wasreally interesting because it
was the first time that he'd hadlike a big episode where he is
really just like retreating.
I don't even know how to likesay it any other way, like runs
to the other room, he hit hishead from like diving on the
couch, and then he backedhimself into a corner and like
(16:54):
he was having such strongemotions that he didn't know how
to bring them down and he washeavy breathing and all this
stuff.
And I mean, even the therapistwas trying different things
because it's her first time likeseeing him be like this.
And it it's always feels shittyas a parent because you're like
looking at your kid and you'relike, I don't know how to help
him, like I don't know what thebest thing is right now.
(17:14):
And they're looking at you like,has this happened before?
Like, do you know what to do?
And I'm like, it has happenedbefore, and I don't know what to
do.
This is why we're here.
SPEAKER_00 (17:21):
Exactly.
Yeah, I was just about to saythat.
Like, I know I have no idea whatto do.
That's you know, not to say it'syour job, like help me help him,
you know.
SPEAKER_03 (17:28):
Yeah, well, and I think this is the other thing
that kind of guided us towardsthis AVA therapy is because this
has happened at least to mepreviously before therapy in
school, where like he'd havesomething going on, or even at a
practice or something, and thecoach or a teacher would look at
me and been like, What do younormally do in this situation?
Or what can I do to help him?
And I'm like, uh uh, I don'tknow.
(17:48):
I don't, I wish I knew.
I know him, but I don't know.
And it's kind of ever-changingtoo as he matures and grows up.
Like a four-year-old tantrumfrom toddler or a four-year-old
fear is not the same as aseven-year-old fear for him.
And so we're always learning.
But that being said, it's nicebecause now every therapy
session is structured.
So they've got like a board.
(18:08):
And I already knew this, andwe've done this in our own house
with different kinds of visuals,whether it's a schedule for the
day or like what tasks need tohappen morning and night.
I mean, we started that whenthey were like in preschool, and
it's really helpful.
So that's what they do.
They have like a schedule and hegets to pick the order that they
do it, but he has these 10 boxesthat he needs to check off.
And some of these boxes, likeone, for example, is stopping a
(18:30):
preferred activity.
So he gets 20 minutes of videogames or something, and then he
gets his check on there if hestops his preferred activity
when he's supposed to.
So we work a lot with timers aswell because transitions is a
really hard thing.
Very hard.
And that was becoming verydifficult with starting
elementary school because wehave to be places at certain
(18:50):
times and startingextracurriculars, which was hard
because most of the time, allthe time, Hunter would be fine
once he's there.
He's loves to try new things,he's really good at just putting
himself in a new situation.
But getting there and beingthere and having what you need,
wearing what you need, being ontime, I mean it was just like a
whole thing.
So the way they run theirtherapy sessions is checking off
(19:11):
these boxes, and it changesevery time.
But every session is a newlesson.
And at the beginning, they gaveus this big social skills book
to go through.
And I went through and basicallypulled out like 20 different
lessons that I thought lookedlike something that would
benefit Hunter and for wherehe's at.
And I think where we're at nowis we have like one lesson left
before we start to revisitimportant lessons, or even the
(19:35):
therapists will be adding somethat they think will be
beneficial or build on skillshe's already learned.
But yeah, that being said, Imean, I'm curious.
I know what I've noticed, butwhat changes have you noticed in
him since starting therapy?
Like even little things.
SPEAKER_00 (19:49):
Yeah, even the example that I so last night I
took the boys to thepediatrician.
We had to get our flu shots, andyou know, I went first, it's no
big deal.
Daddy can take it.
And Hunter went, but he was verynervous at first.
And it's so funny the terms thathe uses because he was breathing
in and out, he was taking deepbreaths, put his hands under the
cold water, he washed his hands.
SPEAKER_01 (20:11):
Without being prompted, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (20:13):
Just just him doing it, got his shot and was like,
that wasn't so bad.
And I was like, Yeah, I toldyou.
But what was really cool on theway home, he was like, Dad, and
he's like, Did you see how wellI self-regulated myself?
And first off, did he use that?
Yeah, that's yeah.
I'm like, seriously, I'm like,seven years old, self-regulate.
SPEAKER_03 (20:29):
And I was like, Yes, we are still learning to
regulate our emotions.
SPEAKER_00 (20:33):
Right.
And you know, and I think that'sone of the best times to give
him praise because he is takingwhat he's learned and uh and
applying it in a you know, in atough situation.
You know, what kid wants to geta shot, right?
Right.
It that just blew my mind, youknow.
SPEAKER_03 (20:47):
I know the first thing he said when he came home
from that, I was like, How'd itgo?
And he said, Well, you'll be soproud.
I used my tools.
SPEAKER_01 (20:53):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (20:54):
And I was like, You used your tools?
Like, because we always talkabout he's got all these tools
that he can apply.
I don't know if it's helpful ornot yet, but one of the things I
say to try and remind himsometimes is like, just use one
of your tools.
Because he does have days wherehe just says, I can't.
I can't, I can't, I can't.
One of our biggest struggleslately has been his fear, and
it's a fear that wasn't alwaysthere, but literally like it's a
(21:16):
fear of being alone in ourhouse, meaning like being in a
room alone.
He won't go upstairs if nobody'sup there with him.
He sometimes won't even go intothe bathroom alone to brush his
teeth if no one's in there withhim.
And as you can imagine, familyof five, getting three people
out the door with their ownschedules, we can't like follow
him around the house to getthings done.
SPEAKER_00 (21:36):
It's a little crippling.
But on the flip side of thatcoin, he can walk out our front
door and go to our neighbor'shouse.
So no problem.
He can when we did our littlestaycation, he can get out of
the pool and go walk a hundredyards away from us, no problem.
But in our home, he can't go tothe next room.
SPEAKER_03 (21:53):
But I don't know about you, but honestly, when
he's done that, that just forhas reminded me that his brain
is wired differently becauseI've had to look it up and it's
actually called elopement inautism.
And it's when people on thespectrum will wander or will
walk off, whether that's toavoid like a sensory overload or
anxiety, fear, or just like aninterest, which is funny because
(22:16):
when I look back, there's somany things in hindsight now.
The more we learn, I look backand like, you know, two-year-old
Hunter.
I remember the first time whenhe was like old enough to, or
maybe he was three, two orthree, old enough to walk in the
airport, but still young.
And I was like, there's no way Ineed to put him in a stroller.
He would be off and he would sayhi to every stranger and he
would be gone.
Like, and I just always thought,like, you know, you know him.
(22:37):
He's just, he's so friendly andhe's so confident.
And then the same thing too withlike little boys.
I'm like, little boys are alwaysrunning off.
I can't even control them.
Like, no, like there was thatthere was never a fear in there.
His brain is just wireddifferently.
And so it's interesting becausewe're learning, because without
learning all of this and justhow his brain's wired and how it
works, you know, we're like,what in the world?
(22:58):
Are we not providing a safe homefor him?
Like, why is he more comfortableout and about without us than he
is like in a room alone in ahouse where we're all in?
And the only lesson we've reallyseen a big reaction from is the
week they focused on fear.
And he learned about a trueemergency versus a false
emergency because we had acouple times where he like
(23:20):
didn't know where we were in thehouse.
Or I told him to his face, like,okay, you're in here playing on
your tablet.
I'm going to be right on thedriveway cleaning out the car.
And he says, Okay.
Like, we connected, he said it,and then two minutes later, he's
running around the house in apanic trying to find me, and
he's scared.
That example, I was outside andhe came running outside, not
(23:42):
after first waking up his sisterwho was narrowing because he
went into the room looking forme.
But there's been two times nowwhere he is scared that he
doesn't know where we are, justtruly based off of
miscommunication or notlistening.
Uh, I'm not sure, just didn'tregister.
And then he goes into panic modeand he has walked out of the
house one time, literally wentto our neighbor's house not
(24:04):
knowing where we were, askingfor help.
And the second time I kind ofcaught him in the middle of it,
and it was just him and I,because he was homesick from
school this couple weeks ago,and I was putting Lorelai down
for a nap.
And I said, All right, Hunter,he didn't want to be downstairs
by himself.
So I said, Why don't you do yourtablet in your room?
I'll be in in a few minutesafter I put Lorelai down.
Well, where he got a littleconfused, I guess, is because I
(24:27):
did have to run back downstairsto grab her blanket, and I came
back up, and for whateverreason, that flipped a switch of
like everything I said didn'tmatter.
And then I heard the door open.
I'm like in her room and all ofa sudden I hear movement.
I hear him walk down the stairsand then I hear the door.
And then a minute later it likeclicked me, and I was like, oh
my gosh, she's probably lookingfor me.
(24:47):
Yeah.
And sure enough, I open the doorand he's walking down the
driveway.
And you had been calling me.
Again, I'm like trying to putLoreline out for now.
You're calling me because you'reseeing the ring camera go off
and you're out of town.
You're like, what is Hunterdoing?
He's just like walking up.
SPEAKER_00 (25:01):
Yeah, I literally, I literally walk, see him go out
the front door, like walk on thepatio area and then walk down
the driveway.
I'm like, what the hell is hedoing?
SPEAKER_03 (25:10):
See, and that's what I didn't I didn't see the first
part.
I just saw him walking down thedriveway, and I was like, oh my
gosh, he's going to theneighbor's house again because
he doesn't know he forgot whereI was.
I'm literally in the room acrossthe hall.
The door was just closed.
But what he had told me later,and which must make sense after
seeing the ring camera, is thathe did go outside and he sat on
the front porch in the rockingchair and he tried to take deep
(25:31):
breaths and calm himself down.
And he kept thinking, Do I needto go to the neighbor's house?
Or like, is this okay?
Like, I don't want mom to worryabout where I'm at.
Like, he had a whole secondthought process that he's never
done before.
Ultimately, obviously, he didstart walking down the driveway
because that's when I cameoutside and I was like, Hunter,
where are you going?
And I had a talk with him aboutit, and he truly had no
(25:54):
recollection of like wow.
He said he looked all over thehouse.
And the thing is, I asked myfriend, Chat GPT, when I was
trying to figure out how to havethis conversation with him
afterwards and just trying tounderstand it better.
I was like, why does he feelsafer walking out the front door
by himself than staying in thehome?
Even if you can't find me, likeyou're in your home, it's your
(26:14):
safe space, or it should be.
And really, it's just a matterof how your brain works.
It's kind of like a fight orflight, and he already is
anxious inside when he's alone.
And so for him, being outsidejust feels better to him and
because he's not knocked in anenclosed area.
Yeah, I mean, but on the flipside, this is why we have all
these therapies too, is to alsokeep him safe, which I'm now
(26:36):
remembering was another bigdriving force of us wanting him
to have assistance in certainthings, especially social
skills, because as he getsolder, we don't want him talking
to strangers.
And no, just he needs to knowthat different relationships
with people are differentbecause we have witnessed him
treat a grandparent the same ashe treats a male man.
(26:57):
Yeah, that's been helpful too.
But that was a big learningmoment and change that I've
noticed in him is that he ispausing and thinking, hold on,
am I safe?
And so every session theyrevisit these lessons too, and
they're different lessons.
And so the therapist had askedme, is there a certain specific
lesson you want to revisit thisweek?
Maybe something that has come upin the last week or so.
So I told her about that exactscenario.
(27:18):
And they revisited a fixedmindset versus a growth mindset,
a true emergency versus a falseemergency.
And he was able to open up tothe therapist too and us about
kind of his thought process.
And so I learned more about whathappened.
And what we did is we talkedabout a safe space in the house.
So, like if he's upstairsbecause he said he feels safe in
(27:39):
his bed, but he didn't see me.
And so we've come up with a safeplace where he can put a blanket
around him in the family room ifhe is feeling anxious.
And if that's not working, atthe very least, he can go on our
back deck, but not to just walkout the front door and be off
and go finding a neighbor oranyone.
Anyone.
(27:59):
So it's a lot, and I thinksomething with someone on the
spectrum who is very highfunctioning, a lot of people
don't understand a lot of thethings that go on.
Like I'll say at home, becauseat school, um play dates, in
sports, it's not as often thesethings arise, at least at this
(28:20):
age level.
I'm sure as he ages and peersage, you know, there will be
things that will come up moreand more.
But yeah, it's a lot.
But it is really cool learningthat he's he's learning calming
techniques and he's learning howto stay focused and how to get
things done and just using histools, meaning like make a list,
(28:41):
take deep breaths.
I'm trying to think of some ofthe other things that oh, taking
breaks, like doing a calmingactivity and then going back to
an energetic activity.
SPEAKER_00 (28:49):
Compromise.
SPEAKER_03 (28:50):
Oh, another big one is learning to advocate for
himself.
And this one I've been reallyproud of him for because I
forget where we were.
He had to do something.
I don't know if it was a dentistappointment or something.
And he said, Okay, can you justgive me a second?
I just need to take like a fewdeep breaths.
I just need to calm down for asecond.
SPEAKER_00 (29:10):
That's what he did last night before he got his
shot.
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (29:12):
And so just learning to be open about that.
And even at school, I think itwas like the first few weeks of
school, his teacher noticed thathe was having a little bit of a
hard time following the morningroutine, you know, making sure
his backpack is hung up, likekind of the same thing we deal
with at home, but the schoolversion of it, those first like
15 minutes of the day.
So she talked with him and shemade this like visual on his
desk.
(29:32):
And I think there's one or twoother kids in the classroom who
have something similar.
And he says, Yeah, no, thatshould be fine.
Like, I'm okay with that.
You can make that for me and putit on my desk.
So she does.
And I guess she used just likesome emojis to match the steps
or something.
And he told her nicely, but hesaid, Um, yeah, I just don't
(29:53):
think that's gonna work for me.
And she's like, Oh no, like, whynot, Hunter?
I thought we talked about this.
And he was like, I just I don'tlike the pictures on it.
Like, I'm not in kindergarten.
You know, so he was advocatingfor self saying that like that
embarrasses me.
I don't want that on my desk.
I'm okay with some help, but Idon't want it to be this big
production.
SPEAKER_01 (30:14):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (30:14):
Um, so I'm just like really proud of him and seeing
him grow in that because that'sa big skill to learn at very
proud of it.
At seven, I mean, everyoneshould know to advocate for
themselves.
What are some lessons thatsurprised you that you were
like, oh yeah, it seems sosimple, but you're right.
Like he could benefit from this.
Does there any that stick out toyou?
SPEAKER_00 (30:35):
Um, well, I mean, just the the compromised one
because he gets, you know, andhas fixed a mindset or
Minecraft, like he's obsessed.
That's all he's gonna do.
Right now he is.
SPEAKER_03 (30:45):
He always has in like his current obsession, but
yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (30:48):
Yeah, and that's all he wants to do.
And like you know, Dad, he'slike, all I thought about today
was Minecraft at school, and I'mlike, ugh.
Thought about something else,and then when he gets home, you
know, the boy's gonna playNintendo, which is fine.
But if Noah doesn't say a word,Hunter will play Minecraft until
the sun comes up, and so youknow, they'd be talking about
compromise, and we know you'reexcited to do this, but there's
(31:09):
other people, not just you.
And I think that was an ahamoment for him to be able to say
share and compromise with myyounger brother that wants to do
something else.
So that was that was a nicelesson.
SPEAKER_03 (31:19):
Yeah, and I think like that one is just one of
those things too that like againseems obvious, but the more we
learn about him, because fromour perspective as parents, I
just feel like if I was seeingthem play Minecraft, I'm like,
uh, well, Noah's just happy tobe playing with him, so he'll
just, you know, play whateverand they seem to be having fun.
But again, he's learning life'ssocial skills.
So when he's at a friend'shouse, when he's trying to form
(31:42):
relationships and make friends,you know, you can't just be all
about you and all aboutyourself.
And role play comes up in everynew lesson, that's how they do
it.
And it took him a good likemonth to get on board with role
play.
And honestly, even justrecently, he's participating
fully himself.
Cause then we kind of transitionto like one of us and the
therapist acting something out,and then he has to identify,
(32:02):
say, who's compromising, who'snot, like things like that.
And now he is acting things outand participating, and it's just
really good practice becausehe's gonna run on totals in
these situations with his peersand other people and his world.
One of the lessons that reallysurprised me, which made so much
sense, but like I didn't thinkabout too much because there was
a bigger fish to drive, was hiswhole lesson on sarcasm.
(32:26):
Because a lot of times people onthe spectrum don't pick up on
things like that.
They don't pick up on socialcues or tone of voice or body
language.
So he's been learning a lotabout that, about postures and
gestures.
And every session they do thisthing where they're looking at a
picture, like a scene, and theyhave to identify kind of what
might be going on in the scenebased off of body language and
(32:47):
facial expressions and thingslike that.
But we've always kind of knownthat we've always said, even
since he was little, oh my gosh,Hunter, you're so literal.
Like he's so literal.
He takes everything literally.
Well, it's because he genuinelyis just like not picking up
picking up on that, and not justsarcasm, but like phrases too.
SPEAKER_00 (33:03):
Or even like tones, right?
You know, we talked to him in astern voice, I mean that there's
no he doesn't, I don't want toraise a normal kid, but you
know, a kid who's not on thecircle was typical kid.
Yeah, typical normal.
Yeah, they pick up on like, oh,that is a test, or yeah, right.
SPEAKER_03 (33:20):
Well, the other thing too, I always worried
about is just like interactionswith kids at school.
You know, they might be like,wow, that's really cool.
And really they're beingsarcastic and they don't mean
it.
And I think that was my thinkingtoo, is like just as he gets
older.
I mean, luckily, you know,kindergarten first grade, second
grade seems to be going okay,but like overall, everyone's
(33:40):
they're young, they're eitherit's going over his head at this
point, or um, I mean, he doeshave a lot of friends.
He's just so nice, so kind.
I mean, even this teacher saidhe's a joy to be have in class,
and everyone, he's alwaystalking with everybody.
But yeah, there's just a lotthat you don't think about, a
lot to learn, and it's a lot forhim.
But and I think that's probablywhy some people kind of might
(34:02):
view this as I don't know, whatdid I hear somebody or what did
I read somebody say on aFacebook group?
Just well, that's cruel.
Like ABA therapy is cool andit's so demanding and all this
stuff.
And maybe that is some oneperson's perception if maybe
their child isn't as highfunctioning.
SPEAKER_00 (34:15):
Or maybe truly just got a shitty therapist.
SPEAKER_03 (34:17):
And maybe that too.
We've had a really greatexperience with our team, but
also from what our therapistshave shared, there are so many
parents who kind of just handtheir kids over and are like,
Can you fix them?
And we never came into it likethat.
We were like, we need the toolsto handle this better because we
don't want yelling in our house.
We don't want him to feel anykind of way other than confident
and supported, and it's taking atoll on the whole family.
(34:40):
And that's the other nice thingis that it is a family therapy
because they'll bring in Noah.
Noah will get to play games withthem too.
He's always listening.
He just busted out likesomething about compromise and
how they could compromise theother day.
And it's just really helpful.
But yeah, the controversy aroundit, like if you search ABA
therapy online, you will findparents saying that it's
life-changing and then otherssaying that it's harmful.
(35:02):
But I do want to emphasize thatlike ABA today, from what I
read, is not like the oldcompliance-based model.
We're always involved in thesessions, like we said, and
we're always making sure it'schild-led, kind, and effective.
Our therapist celebratesprogress and like never punishes
behavior and adjusts constantlyto meet his needs.
(35:23):
The week that he worked on thefear lesson, which was a really
hard one, they spread it outover three or four sessions, and
then they did not revisit itbecause truly that week was the
only time that he had tears likeevery day in the session.
And it wasn't because he wasafraid, it was because he was
being pushed to do somethingthat's really, really hard.
(35:45):
Yes.
And so they pivoted, theyswitched the schedule, they
said, we're gonna table this,we're not gonna do this again.
They cut it short and we'regonna build on his other skills
to give him the confidence andwork our way back to it.
And I think we're getting therenow to revisit.
But I just really appreciatethat they are always like
positive behavior, supportinghim, building him up and
adjusting when needed.
(36:05):
We kind of touched on this, butwould you say that we've learned
to better advocate for himbecause of this therapy?
SPEAKER_00 (36:11):
100%.
SPEAKER_03 (36:12):
I've noticed it in you.
I hope you've noticed it in me,but like even my mom said, I
haven't even told you this yet.
But the other day we were, I washot in Halloween.
We were with family, and my momhad gotten all the grandkids
like matching pajamas to put on,and we were trying to surprise
my dad, and you were helpingthem downstairs.
And my mom said to me later,like, I'm so proud of Josh.
He was telling Hunter to takedeep breaths, and he was just
(36:34):
being kind and patient and likejust supporting him.
SPEAKER_00 (36:38):
Thanks, mom.
SPEAKER_03 (36:39):
Shout out to them.
I mean, that didn't surprise mebecause I've noticed a change in
you.
We are both trying to apply whatwe learned, and it's definitely
given me a different lens tolook through.
You know, I'm not quick toanger, I'm not quick to get
frustrated.
It doesn't make it any easierbecause it is hard, but at least
we now have a better outlook andwe have our own tool also have
(37:01):
our own tool.
SPEAKER_01 (37:01):
Correct.
SPEAKER_03 (37:02):
Yeah, for sure.
That being said, what do youthink has helped us the most as
parents, not just him?
I mean, because we do have ourown tools, like you mentioned.
He has learned so much.
What do you think has helped usthe most so far?
SPEAKER_00 (37:15):
I mean, personally, I mean, it's just watching him
interact with the therapist andthen just listening because
again, there's lots of things Ididn't understand.
And, you know, maybe I have myown fixed mindset when the
beginning of ABA therapy.
But I think what's helped mepersonally is just to again take
my time with them, you know, notbe so quickly upset over some
task and take the time and if heneeds a minute, be there for him
(37:39):
and not put my feelings beforehis because you know what, as a
parent, it's not about usanymore, right?
It's just being there for themand then give them every tool
and feel support and feel love,everything he needs to do to be
a successful human.
SPEAKER_03 (37:52):
I completely agree, and I think it's definitely
helped me be more patient.
And I think for both of us, I'venoticed we we don't say this
anymore, like, why would you dothat?
Or why is this hard for you?
We'd never say why.
We'd be like, How did that makeyou feel?
Like we're we're more so comingat it feelings-based as to like
logistically, becauselogistically it doesn't make
sense to us, and it's not fair,he can't explain it like he is
(38:15):
who he is, and he's learning whohe is too.
And I guess it should bementioned because we didn't like
at the beginning of thisepisode, we talked about how he
was first diagnosed at age six.
We didn't say anything to himuntil seven, seven, like right
before second grade.
I think it was.
It was recently he had a brokenarm and we were talking about
something, and I don't know howit came up.
(38:36):
I forget how the conversationstarted, but basically I was
like, Yeah, have you heard theword autism before?
He goes, Yeah, no, I've heardit.
He's like, I don't know what itmeans.
Because at one point thetherapist asked me, does he know
that he's on the spectrum?
Does he know these words?
Should I say them out loud orshould I not?
Do you need help having thisconversation?
And for the longest time, wejust weren't sure what to do.
And I think it was just our ownfears about, like we mentioned,
(38:58):
like I didn't want to label himor make him feel less than.
But what we forgot is that he'shunter and he like didn't take
it that way at all.
Not only was it not that big ofa deal when I told him, but
honestly, this was his reaction.
First, he goes, Well, are youautistic?
And I said, Well, no, to myknowledge.
I said, Mommy and daddy didn'treally know about this when we
(39:20):
were younger, so no.
And he goes, Is Noah?
And I was like, Not that weknow.
And he goes, Well, I hope he'snot, because I want to be
special.
SPEAKER_01 (39:27):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (39:28):
And then, of course, we did talk about ADHD too.
And I was like, and daddy hasADHD, you have an uncle with
ADHD.
It's just how your brain works.
And we've read other books thatdidn't necessarily say it, but
like, my brain is faster than mybody, or my brain is my
superpower, or everyone'sbrain's wired differently.
Like, we have talked aboutneurodivergence in general.
We just never said, like, yourbrain is neurodivergent, but
(39:51):
he's very smart, he loves it.
I don't think he's at a point orhas the need to be like, because
I kind of thought this was myother fear at first was that he
would be like everyone.
Yeah, that he'd be like, hi, I'mHunter, I'm on the autalon
channel.
SPEAKER_00 (40:04):
Yeah, I don't think it doesn't faze him whatsoever.
SPEAKER_03 (40:06):
He does not like label himself.
It's if anything, it was justlike a cool tidbit he learned,
like, oh, my brain works likethat.
That's cool.
Yeah.
Which also brings up because youknow, he's never really dove in
and asked, like, why am I intherapy?
And Noah's not.
Or why am I doing this?
Like, he really just does it.
And part of it might be too, islike, again, our little 24
(40:29):
weaker has always been in somesort of therapy.
Always.
Like, it's not that out of theit's not like it came out of
nowhere.
He's always been in somethingfor something.
So that could be why too.
All this to say, if you're aparent considering ABA or
honestly any therapy really, ourbiggest advice, I would say to
you is just trust your gut.
(40:50):
Don't get sucked into all thedifferent things you read
online, do your own research,find what's best for you, find a
therapist who values your input,respects your child's comfort,
and focuses on progress, notperfection.
What would you say to anotherdad or parent starting this
journey?
Like at the very beginning,starting it.
SPEAKER_00 (41:09):
I would say don't be afraid of what you don't know.
And also, I mean, everythingthat you're doing, you're doing
it for your child or children togive them their best life
experience.
And especially starting it soyoung, he is gonna have an
opportunity to feel better inhis own skin.
And the earlier you start it,you know, the more that it's
(41:30):
gonna take an effect and it'sgonna stick and it's gonna be
applied.
SPEAKER_03 (41:33):
That's really great advice.
Yeah.
And know that when you're goinginto an AVA therapy, it's okay
to be nervous about it.
Finding the right therapist isgoing to make a world of a
difference.
So don't settle if it doesn'tfeel like it's working for you.
But really just go into it withthe mindset that this is for
your family.
You're doing this together.
(41:53):
It's not something you're doingjust to your child or for your
child.
It's for your child and for you.
It's for everyone to learn fromeach other.
I like to think of it as likewe're getting to know each other
better and we're just helpingour household run more
peacefully and making sureeveryone's at peace because it
was getting really hard to watchnot just our son, but even
(42:14):
ourselves struggle with everydaytasks.
And it's all just because of alack of knowledge.
The more we learn about how allof our brains work, and the more
we learn about how to help himand things he might struggle
with, it's helping us too withskills that we might not even
taught as children.
So just keep that in mind.
And of course, as always, Ipreach this on the podcast
(42:37):
always, but you're not alone inthis.
Every child's path is unique andthere's no one size fits all
approach.
So what matters most is thatyour child feels loved and
supported.
Thanks, listeners, for tuningin.
I encourage you to send me amessage or share your own
experience.
If you've done ABA or if youhave a child on the spectrum and
(42:58):
have any questions or can shareyour insights, I would love to
pass them along onto thispodcast so other people can kind
of get some more insight intothis therapy.
The spectrum is very big andeveryone's experience is
different.
So please feel free to send mean email at hello at
motherhoodintended.com or sendme a message on Instagram.
I would love to hear from you.
(43:19):
And if you found thisconversation helpful, share it
with another parent who might bewondering if ABA is right for
their family.
Thanks again for listening.
I'm going to put some links inthe show notes to resources that
might point you in the rightdirection if you're considering
this as an option for yourfamily.
Josh, thanks for joining me onthe podcast again.
SPEAKER_00 (43:38):
Thanks, Dave.
SPEAKER_03 (43:39):
I always love chatting with you.
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