January 28, 2025 • 41 mins
Bonus Episode From the Vault: The #1 Most Downloaded Episode of 2024!
While we’re on a break until Feb 4, we’re bringing back one of your all-time favorite episodes from 2024!
In this episode, holistic veterinarian Dr. Jeff Grognet emphasizes the critical importance of understanding pet vaccinations, including core and non-core vaccines, potential risks of over-vaccination, and tailored vaccination schedules based on pet age and lifestyle. This episode empowers pet owners to have informed discussions with veterinarians and advocate effectively for their pets' health and well-being.
Highlights:
- The significance of core vs. non-core vaccines
- Assessing the risks related to vaccinations, including allergies and adverse reactions
- Evaluating age and lifestyle factors in determining vaccine needs
- Understanding rabies vaccination protocols and legal requirements
- Exploring alternatives to traditional vaccination practices
- Guidance on how to communicate effectively with veterinarians
- Stressing the importance of informed consent and pet owners’ rights
Learn more about Dr. Jeff, his work, and his courses at www.newearthvet.com.
Love the show? Please share it with another pet parent who wants less chaos and more clarity. Please leave a 5-star review to help others find real-life, judgment-free advice.
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©Ⓟ 2025 by Amy Castro.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
As we take a short break between seasons of muddy
paws and hairballs, we'rebringing back one of the most
essential episodes for every petparent pet vaccination
essentials.
Vaccines are a crucial part ofensuring our pets live long and
healthy lives, but I've learnedthrough my own experiences that
understanding them fully can bea little more complicated than I
once thought.
Like many pet parents, I alwaysused to follow a pretty
(00:32):
standard vaccination schedule,but as I've learned more, and
especially having conducted thisinterview with Dr Jeff Grognett
, I've had to reconsider andeducate myself more on the
latest guidelines and the uniqueneeds of each of my pets.
In this episode, we dive intothe core things that every pet
parents need to know, whetherit's determining what vaccines
(00:55):
your pet really needs orunderstanding the risks of not
vaccinating.
I wanted to bring this episodeback because it's so crucial to
make informed decisions that arein the best interest of our
pets.
Whether you're new to petownership or you've been in the
game for years, this episode hasinformation you can use to make
the best interest of our pets.
Whether you're new to petownership or you've been in the
game for years, this episode hasinformation you can use to make
the best choices for your pets.
Stay tuned for expert insightsand personal tips that'll help
you navigate the world of petvaccinations.
(01:16):
Today, we're gonna be talkingabout vaccinations for your pets
, and my guest, who was actuallya guest very early on in the
show, dr Jeff Grognett, is apracticing veterinarian and an
award-winning author With over40 years in practice.
He's been actively teaching for35 years and has taught over
42,000 students wanting tocreate veterinary assisting
(01:37):
careers.
He has developed courses on petfirst aid behavior and training
, as well as holistic therapy.
First aid behavior and training, as well as holistic therapy.
Dr Jeff has a passion to teachowners how they can better care
for their pets.
From a holistic standpoint, hefocuses on nutrition, minimizing
vaccines and reducing toxinexposure.
So, dr Jeff, thank you andwelcome back to the show.
Speaker 3 (02:00):
Thank you very much, amy.
It's great to be here, great toget the message out.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
Yeah, definitely, and obviously I get your emails and
so I've seen all theinformation and the classes that
you've been having aboutvaccines and I thought this is
going to be a perfect topic fora perfect expert to help us kind
of get some things straight,because I think pet parents are
very confused and kind of don'tknow who to believe when it
comes to what our pets need fromthe standpoint of vaccinations.
(02:28):
So one of the things that hascome up is the idea and I had
never heard the term beforeexcept for in the past couple of
years is core vaccines versusnon-core vaccines?
What does that mean?
Speaker 3 (02:41):
That sort of moniker for the vaccines came out when
they developed vaccineguidelines, and so core vaccines
are the ones that areconsidered the life-threatening
quote common diseases that, inthis case, cats and dogs can
suffer from.
And so the core vaccines theguidelines suggest that they
(03:02):
should be done in all cats anddogs.
The non-core vaccines,differently, are ones that are
you can call them optional, andwhat they say with those is that
it depends on the risk and theexposure and what the pet is
going to be exposed to, as inwhat they may come down with, is
(03:23):
going to be exposed to, as inwhat they may come down with.
The definition of core andnon-core is strictly a
conventional mechanism and thatis just how they break down the
vaccines.
And there's also some confusionon what should be labeled as a
(03:48):
core and a non-core vaccine.
And, for example, a little whileago in California, they put
leptospirosis as a core vaccinein some areas because they were
seeing more cases.
So because of that, all of asudden lepto became a core
vaccine, according to thoseveterinarians in that area.
This is not something that isregulated, it's something that
veterinarians will sort of comeup with.
I'll call it by themselves, andwhat it does is.
(04:12):
It creates the idea of callingit CORE, creates an urgency that
you should get that vaccinedone.
It doesn't change the facts ofthe problems with vaccines how
often you really should do themthat type of thing but it does.
It is used as a moniker forsaying, oh, these are the
important ones and we've got todo them on this regular schedule
(04:33):
, conventionally.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
Okay, got it and so you know, for years and years it
was.
You know, every year you go toyour vet and every year you get
this barrage of vaccines and itseems like nobody ever really
questioned it.
But I think this issue iscoming up because we actually
have been finding that we areover vaccinating our pets and
that there are risks associatedwith that.
(04:56):
What kind of risks do our petsface when we over vaccinate?
Speaker 3 (05:02):
Yeah, well, I wouldn't even call it over
vaccinate, I'll just call itvaccinating, because as soon as
you say over vaccinate, thenit's kind of well.
What do you mean by that?
No, it's just.
Vaccinations can cause problems, and the one that's recognized
universally, of course, isallergic reactions.
(05:23):
You give an injection of avaccine and they can have a
life-threatening reaction.
I always think of it as in the,you know, the 10-year-old kid
who gets a peanut and they havean allergy, and then they end up
going to hospital.
They can have thoselife-threatening reactions.
The most common allergicreactions are the ones where the
face swells up and so themuzzle gets really thick, the
(05:47):
eyelids swell, the ears getthickened, and in those cases
it's like oh okay, we've got anallergic reaction going on here,
and then another one they canhave 12 hours later, 24 hours
later, is hives, so they canhave little bumps all over their
body which are very itchy, andso that's the allergic reaction.
(06:08):
That is the thing that isrecognized by all veterinarians
as in oh, that is a directvaccine reaction.
The other ones that occur areones that occur delayed, and the
one that came to the forefrontback in the 1990s was the one
(06:28):
that's called a felinefibrosarcoma.
It's a tumor that occurs at thesite of an injection in cats.
Now that used to be called avaccine-associated feline
fibrosarcoma, but what theyfound is that it's to any
injection you could have aninjection of antibiotics,
steroids, uh, program flea stuffand even microchips they can
(06:53):
stimulate, uh, growth of a tumorin cats say, okay, so that's
not a direct vaccine effect, butit's an effect of the injection
of the vaccine.
So so that's that cancer incats.
That was the thing that changedour whole thinking of gee,
vaccines are safe and effectiveversus oh no, vaccines are
(07:15):
causing a little bit of aproblem here.
Okay, so that actually that wasthe thing that changed the tide
in vaccines for real.
The other things that we see wecan see hemolytic anemia in dogs
.
That's where they startdestroying their own red blood
cells because their immunesystem's kind of messed up.
We can also see boneinflammation.
(07:37):
It's called hypertrophicosteodystrophy.
It's where they get bonechanges on their I call it the
fingers, and again, that's indogs as well.
But the other two things andthis is what's really pushed by
holistic practitioners is thatthere's two diseases that are
rampant and they're reallycausing problems and certainly
(07:58):
most holistic vets would say,yep, vaccines have a role in
this, and the two are allergies,which have so many dogs
suffering from and generatinghuge bills because of
medications that are used forthat too, and the other one is
cancer.
We're seeing so much cancer now.
Compared to when I graduated,the difference is night and day,
(08:20):
and that's just in my time as aveterinarian, and so because of
that, yeah, I think we have tosort of rethink our whole
strategy on vaccination.
Speaker 2 (08:32):
Yeah, and so how do we in general and then maybe get
into the specifics forindividual pets, but how does
one find that balance betweenprotecting my pets from the
obvious dangers and then notover vaccinating and figuring
out what's the right scheduleand for us to follow?
Speaker 3 (08:51):
Yeah, that's.
That's about a two day webinarthat I could do for you.
Amy, I'm quite sure this is OK.
For the first thing is here's asimple one it's based on the
risk of the disease.
Ok, and so let's take two.
The first thing is here's asimple one.
It's based on the risk of thedisease.
Okay, and so let's take two.
You've got an indoor cat.
(09:12):
Feline leukemia is only passedon from one infected cat to
another when they have a fight.
An indoor cat does not need thevaccine for feline leukemia.
That's real simple.
When you have a dog and you'reworried about Lyme disease, well
, you've now got a four-poundYorkie that lives in your
(09:35):
apartment with you and you goout with it under your arm, put
it down on a little bit of grassoutside your apartment building
, pee some poops, pick the dogup, go back in.
Lyme disease is not a threat.
That dog is not going to pickup a tick and get Lyme disease
in his world, right?
So you have to look at the riskfrom that standpoint.
(09:55):
The other side is and this iswhat a lot of people don't even
talk about is that, as you haveanimals that age and what I'm
talking about is puppy andkittenhood versus three years
old, say, distemper in dogs andalso parvo are puppyhood
(10:15):
diseases.
If you give parvo to an olderdog, they will usually survive
it.
They do quite well.
They will usually survive it.
They do quite well.
In the same way, cats withpanleukopenia, which is stupidly
called distemper, but it's alsoparvovirus, which everything is
really complicated on that one.
But the point is, felinepanleukopenia is a kittenhood
(10:38):
disease.
If you give that to an adultcat, yeah, they might get a bit
of vomiting, might get a bit ofdiarrhea, but it's well known
that if you have a pregnant cat,a queen that's pregnant, and
they pick up panleukopeniaduring pregnancy, they will end
up with birth defects in thekittens, they end up with this
really wild nervous problemcalled cerebellar hypoplasia,
(11:05):
and so the point is they survivethe infection just fine, right.
So the so the big thing is that, as as they start to age, their
immunity to the diseases get somuch better, and so even with
the core vaccines, it's like, oh, if you have a 10 year old dog
or cat, they don't need the corevaccines anymore.
(11:27):
They're not going to die fromit.
They're not kittens, they'renot puppies, right?
So there's a huge differencethere.
But the other side is and thisis the thing that's really come
to light is the effectiveness ofthe vaccines, and a great
example would be dogscoronavirus vaccine, and
(11:48):
coronavirus supposedly causes alittle bit of vomiting, diarrhea
, that type of thing when theydid the studies on the vaccine
that's available, what theyfound is that they couldn't
actually create disease with thecoronavirus virus in the
control group.
So, so, therefore, the vaccinedidn't prevent anything from
happening, wow, okay.
(12:09):
And so the case is that thestudies kind of show that, well,
what's it protecting againstNothing?
It's not needed, okay.
And then when we get into theleptospirosis vaccines, there's
a lot of concern on that, oneand two things.
One is that quite often itdoesn't produce immunity to the
(12:32):
leptospirosis strain that thedogs are exposed to.
But the other side is lepto andalso Lyme in dogs are your most
reactive vaccines causingproblems?
In cats, it's the felineleukemia one that causes a lot
(12:52):
of the problems.
So, as you can see, we have tostart.
We have to look at eachindividual vaccine.
It's not fair to label everyvaccine as causing huge problems
, right, there's specific onesthat do cause some real issues.
Some of them don't.
Speaker 2 (13:03):
Yeah.
So when a pet owner becausegenerally I think people don't
do a good job of askingquestions when they go to the
vet they go to the vet andthere's kind of two sides of it,
right.
There's the person that the vetsays fluffy is due for X, y, z,
and you get it all done.
And then you get the people onthe other end and oftentimes
it's economic reasons that theysay, well, I can't do all that
(13:27):
or I don't want to do any of itbecause my cat doesn't go
outside.
So you had mentioned the ideaof your living situation being a
major factor in deciding whatvaccines you need, and then age
of the pet.
Obviously that's going to playin.
Are there other factors that Ishould consider?
Obviously that's going to playin.
Are there other?
Speaker 3 (13:45):
factors that I should consider.
Yeah, this is where you have tolook at each of the diseases.
Generally, most dogs can getaway and this is dog land right
now most dogs.
You can get away with notgiving any of the non-core
vaccines because of lack ofefficacy and also concerns with
(14:05):
reactions to it.
The problems with a lot of thevaccines is they don't work that
well, and the best example isLyme disease.
Over 95% of dogs, when they'regiven Lyme disease, they will
just brush it off.
You won't even know that theyhad an infection.
An infection, okay, they theymay, might have a day where
(14:28):
there's a little bit off, butotherwise, no, they don't have a
problem there.
They end up, uh, just justgetting rid of it and like say,
most times you wouldn't evenknow it's Lyme disease.
There's a very small subset andthis is what's really
advertised in the veterinaryworld that they can suffer from.
Something called Lyme nephritisis a kidney infection due to,
(14:49):
or should say, kidneyinflammation due to, lyme
disease.
We also see the same thinghappening.
If you vaccinate a dog, you canget Lyme nephritis, that from
that.
So it doesn't have to be thepure.
You know the bug itself.
So you have to look at allthose aspects, as in gee.
Is it really worth it?
Should we be doing that?
In Catland there is a vaccineavailable and I just want to
(15:14):
throw this one out right now ForFIP.
It's feline infectiousperitonitis, which is a
coronavirus, and the vaccine hasbeen proven to not work Okay.
And if you look up the AmericanAssociation of Feline
Practitioners VaccinationGuidelines, it will say in there
vaccination for FIP is notrecommended.
(15:36):
That's the stuff that we shouldbe following and that is in the
vaccine guidelines which arecreated by the veterinarians
that know what's going on there.
But but the real, real bigthing about this uh, very simply
, amy, is we have to look at howlong vaccines last and the.
(15:58):
The pioneering work was doneback in the 1970s by a Dr Ron
Schultz, and what he did.
He was a veterinarian, ofcourse, and he had this concept
of why don't we vaccinate dogsonce, and I'm talking Cora
vaccines here, so distemper,parvo.
(16:18):
You vaccinate them once andthen you check them a month
later to find out did theyrespond to the vaccine?
You do it tighter and if youfind that they have produced an
immune response, that immuneresponse means that the immune
system is activated.
We have memory cells in therewhich persist for the lifetime
(16:39):
of the dog, we do not need to doanother vaccination period.
The same concept applies in catswith panleukopenia, not so much
with the respiratory viruses,because that's kind of like you
and me with the flu virus, right, and that is.
It's changing all the time.
So it's very difficult to have100% immunity to the feline
(17:03):
respiratory infections such asrhino and caliche, but that's
the fate of that one.
You're never going to have 100%on it because you can't
vaccinate for every strainthat's out there in the world.
And the other thing is cat anddog vaccines never change.
Is cat and dog vaccines neverchange?
(17:26):
They don't update the strainsin the vaccines from year to
year like they do with the humanflu vaccine or the COVID
vaccine or anything like that.
Okay, so they're staticvaccines.
They were implemented, createddecades ago, okay, but the main
thing is we've got them lastinglonger.
(17:46):
We don't need to vaccinateevery year or every three years.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
Well, and that actually brings up a question
that I hadn't thought aboutbefore is the whole idea of what
is the deal with these.
One year, like rabies is onethat is required in our
communities here in Texas, eventhough there are very few cases
of rabies that are out there inour communities here in Texas,
even though there are very fewcases of rabies that are out
there.
But obviously when you get intosituations where it's a disease
that can transfer to humans, Iguess that makes it a much
(18:11):
bigger deal.
But it used to be.
You got a rabies vaccine everyyear and then it's like well, if
you got it one year and thenyou get the booster the year
next, now you can go three years.
But is it the same vaccine?
Is it a different vaccine?
Speaker 3 (18:31):
It is the same vaccine, completely Okay.
The reason for the one thegetting it done as a puppy or
kitten and then doing it a yearlater and then moving to a three
year schedule is because thatis how the vaccine was tested
Okay, so the vaccinemanufacturer tested it that way.
Vaccine was tested Okay, so thevaccine manufacturer tested it
that way.
And and what they said is that,okay, based on a three year, a
three year interval we have, wehave good protection, so
(18:53):
therefore we can say it shouldbe done every three years.
It provides what they call 85%protection.
It's not a hundred percent,okay, and that's the thing.
Very few vaccines produce 100%,but in the case of rabies, 85
is the minimum for the threeyear duration.
The kicker is this you're notgoing to find a vaccine
(19:16):
manufacturer who's going to doan expensive study with the goal
to reducing their sales.
It just doesn't make sense forthem.
Speaker 2 (19:23):
Yeah, okay.
Speaker 3 (19:25):
The one thing I do want to comment on, though in
cats there has been a vaccinethat was produced which was
quote purer than the originalvaccines, and so because of that
it didn't have a lot of thegunk in there and it
specifically didn't have anadjuvant.
Adjuvant is additive vaccinesto bump up the immune response.
(19:47):
So the key with that is thatthe adjuvants were originally
were blamed for creating thehigher instance of the tumor,
the fibrosarcoma we were talkingabout.
Mm, hmm.
And so this this vaccine wasmanufactured, but because it
didn't have an adjuvant tostimulate immunity and it was
brought on sort of quickly, itwas only good for one year, so
(20:13):
that specific rabies vaccine hadto be done every year in cats.
This wasn't dogs, it wasstrictly cats.
But what we now know is thatthe incidence of tumor is no
different with thenon-adjuvanted one-year vaccine
and the three-year adjuvantedvaccine, and what we're doing is
(20:33):
we're giving three times asmany vaccine, which is just
boosts up the number of thetumors that can actually occur.
So very good reasons to avoidthe one-year vaccine and stick
with the three-year one if youhave to do it.
Uh, and unfortunately, as you,as you mentioned, amy, in texas,
but in pretty every us state,there is a requirement for
(20:57):
rabies vaccination.
There is something that in andthe number the number that I've
got from this and I don't knowhow accurate it is is 18 states
supposedly have exemptions forrabies vaccine that you can
actually apply for, so to speak,and but that has to be done by
a veterinarian and what they dois they apply for an exemption
(21:20):
based on the health of theanimal had, past reactions to
the vaccine or something likethat.
And certainly when you'redealing with a cat that's got
kidney failure.
You've got a dog that'sdiabetic or had cancer, like a
mast cell tumor, you know thingslike that.
It's kind of like gee.
Do we want to give them anyvaccines and mess up their
(21:40):
immune system here?
Speaker 2 (21:41):
Yeah, really.
Speaker 3 (21:42):
And if the answer is no, that's what we're trying to
avoid.
We're trying to prevent thatfrom happening.
Like you say, the rabiesincidence is really low, but
unfortunately, because it's ahuman disease, then you get
public health involved, andthey're the ones that stimulated
the rabies vaccination laws forthe dogs and cats Right right
(22:05):
so very hard to get around that.
Okay, and so because of that,unfortunately we do see some
areas where the rabies vaccineis really pushed, and this is
(22:33):
one sort of thing.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
I get, I guess, confused and concerned about.
Is that, when did?
Speaker 3 (22:34):
veterinarians become the police in the rabies
vaccines for animals.
Good point as in why are theythe ones that are pushing this
point when it's the you know,it's the law that should be
saying it, and then it should beour option to say, hey, I'm
going to, I'm not going to do it, I'm going to disregard the law
.
But the veterinarians quiteoften get in there saying that
we have to do it and it comesdown to their liability.
(22:58):
I think it's a little bitmisguided.
I don't think we do that.
It's the same thing with ourmedical doctors, where they do
the same thing to us.
Good question.
Speaker 2 (23:12):
Well, I think you know, as far as the rabies goes,
I mean, when it would ever comeup is really when you're trying
to do something like going to aboarding facility, going to a
training class, whatever itmight be, where there would be
required proof of rabies.
Because your average person whogoes to the vet once a year
gets done what needs to get done, has their pet in their home
and takes their pet everywherewith them and doesn't partake of
(23:35):
those facilities.
Nobody's ever going to questionwhether their dog has a rabies
vaccine, unless it bitessomebody.
Then that's a whole other ballof wax, but it's just not
something that's going to comeup.
Speaker 3 (23:46):
No, no, if you're just walking down the street,
you don't have the people askingyou can I see your rabies
vaccine before I pet your dog?
You know exactly.
But anyway, yeah, the thingabout that is that if you're
pushed into doing any vaccinesand this is just a case of if
(24:07):
you have to get vaccines donethere's also what we call remedy
, called Thuja, and it's spelledT-H-U-J-A, and that one is a
(24:31):
general remedy that's used forvaccinosis to prevent the side
effects of vaccines long term.
And then, if you're dealingwith rabies, the most common one
that's used is called Lyssin.
If you're dealing with rabies,the most common one that's used
is called Lyssin L-Y-S-S-I-N,because the rabies is a
Lysivirus.
That's where the name comesfrom.
Okay, okay.
(24:52):
And so I mean those arehomeopathic remedies that are
used a lot for incense, like adetox, and so definitely, if
you're getting that done, that'ssomething to consider as well.
Speaker 2 (25:04):
Okay, okay, so kind of along that same line for
somebody that might be concernedabout disease but at the same
time maybe more concerned aboutvaccines are there alternatives
to vaccines, to protecting ourpets from some of these common
diseases?
Speaker 3 (25:21):
Okay, well, there's two ways to go.
One is to reduce the vaccinesto a lower number as possible,
and the other one is to not usevaccines and use a different
method.
In terms of the differentmethod, that's where we're
talking about using homeopathicno-sodes, and no-sodes are
(25:42):
homeopathic preparations madefrom the disease itself.
It contains the virus, and thenthey're prepared in the
homeopathic method of dilutionand succession, as they call it,
and that is what's given to theanimal and this is the key it
doesn't produce an immuneresponse.
Okay.
Okay, so you can't measureantibodies after you give them a
(26:04):
homeopathic preparation.
What you're giving them thehomeopathic thing for is that
they're at risk of picking upthe disease, and what it does is
it helps the dog or cat getthrough that without having any
symptoms of the disease at thetime.
Okay.
And if you want to get intono-sodes, there's companies that
sell them both for dogs andcats, and you just look up
(26:28):
homeopathic no soads for caninedistemper, or you look for
feline leukemia or somethinglike that, and what you can do
is you can purchase them.
What I found is that each oneof them has different directions
on how to use them.
What I found is that each oneof them has different directions
on how to use them.
Okay, and so what you'll findis some say, give it twice a
(26:48):
week or something like that,during the susceptible period,
and then you give it once amonth or something like that.
They're all over the map onthat, and so where you purchase
it from, they'll be able to tellyou how you should use it.
Okay, but that's one method.
The other way, and this is theone that I used at the hospital
(27:10):
is and just here's a very simpleprogram for you and I'll tell
you what it is and then I'lltell you how it works.
What I was doing, for example,in dogs, is that I would see
them as a puppy dogs is that Iwould see them as a puppy at 16
weeks.
I'd see them before then.
But the first vaccine, and theonly vaccine I gave was at 16
weeks of age.
(27:30):
The reason we wait for that ismaternal antibodies have come
down, and so what happens is, asthey go down, there's no
interference from the maternalantibodies they got from their
mother's colostrum.
Therefore, they'll respond tothe vaccine at 16 weeks and 97%
of puppies respond then.
Okay, so we know that.
(27:51):
So what you do is you give thevaccine and this is a core
vaccine and then a month lateryou do a titer, and a titer is a
measure of the antibody in thebloodstream to that specific
disease.
And so, for example, we gave aparvovirus vaccine.
A month later we do aparvoviral antibody test, the
(28:16):
titer, and if we find that it'sgone up, the immune systems now
responded.
And that way we also know we'vegot a clone of white blood
cells called B lymphocytes,which are producing antibodies
to that virus, and they willpersist for life.
And this is something thatevery veterinarian knows and
learned in vet school.
(28:38):
As in yeah, immune system meanswe've got it for life.
Just like me having a poliovaccine when I was a little guy,
I don't get re-vaccinated whenI'm 40 years old or whatever.
It doesn't run out right.
So the key is, it does persistfor, as far as we know, a
lifetime for the memory cells.
(28:58):
So if the titer's proven thatyou got a response.
There's two big things here.
It means that oh, we've gotmemory there, we don't need to
revaccinate, and the other sideis we also don't need to do
another titer.
Speaker 2 (29:12):
Oh, okay, there's no point, because I was wondering
if that was going to besomething you have to keep doing
.
Speaker 3 (29:16):
No, well, some veterinarians do that, and what
they're doing is they're lookingat the antibody level in the
blood.
Well, it's natural for theantibody level to go down, but
even though that antibody levelmay be close to zero and it
probably never gets to zero,it's just the test can't detect
(29:38):
it.
But once it gets low enough,then they're saying, oh, there's
no immunity there.
No, if you give that dog avaccine, you're going to find
that the immunity goes up in aheartbeat, like in a couple of
days, Like boom, you've got it.
But the other side is, if thatdog picks up the disease, as in
picks up parvovirus, you know,when the level's gone down the
(30:05):
immune system is going to kickright into high gear and produce
what's called an anamnesticresponse.
That's a big word, but what itmeans is that the immune
system's already in charged andall you got to do is stimulate
that little bit with a diseaseor vaccine and the number goes
right up and it's protective andthey won't get sick.
So that's the key.
We can do one vaccine, onetiter, and then we're done.
(30:28):
Call one and done.
We don't have to do it.
Keep going.
Same applies to cats with thecore vaccine as well.
Speaker 2 (30:35):
Okay, so you know, and I kind of skipped over a
question that I was going to askyou, but I want to get back to
the idea of kind of traditionalversus.
I mean, that sounds like what aholistic veterinarian would
take, that approach versus atraditional.
And I know there's, you knowthere's a scale of people in
between.
It's not just one extreme orthe other, but from the one end,
(30:56):
where it's traditional and thisis just what we do, we give
vaccines every single time untilthe dog dies or cat dies versus
the one and done approach, howis a pet parent to know what's
the right thing to do?
Or how do you?
Do I just go out and look for aveterinarian that has this
approach over here, or do I tryto convince my veterinarian to
take that approach?
Or, you know, because it kindof, you know, we're not the vets
(31:19):
.
We're, you know, we're relyingon their advice when we go there
.
Speaker 3 (31:22):
That's right, yeah, and here's a few ideas for you.
I mean, I'm giving this ideaand if I had a conventional vet
right in front of me here,they'd be shaking their heads
going, no, that's not what I canbelieve.
This is the point.
It's not what I can believe in.
And so when people are lookingat alternative vaccinations,
(31:45):
they have to decide what do theybelieve, what are they
comfortable with?
And this was really broughthome with that.
You know that virus thing thatcame out in people called COVID
that one.
Yes, we got a completedissection of the population in
terms of what people believedabout the disease and the
vaccines.
Speaker 2 (32:05):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (32:06):
Okay.
So, we had people that werelining up to get vaccines
because they really wanted it,and we had the other group that
was saying, oh no, those thingsare dangerous.
But the point is you as in you,me and everyone else are
comfortable in going down thepath that you believe is the
(32:26):
right one to go into.
And whichever one you go into,you can probably get backing for
it.
You can do research and say,hey, this guy agrees with my
thinking.
Not that you're going in tochange your thinking, you just
get someone to back you up.
And so the thing about it isthis I was born and raised a
conventional veterinarian.
When I graduated in 83, we werevaccinating every year, um.
(32:51):
And then when things startedchanging and we realized that
the vaccines are causing someissues here and it was feline
fibrosarcoma was the biggie, uh.
The allergies, that that wasanother one, uh.
But then it's like gee, we gotall these other little niggly
diseases.
Some of them are huge, and andvaccines just aren't as safe as
(33:13):
we really believe.
Other veterinarians will tellyou, and the research papers
only look at what happens in thefirst three days after a
vaccination.
They don't look at what happensafter three months.
So for that reasoning.
Sometimes it's very difficultto get the information that you
really want, and this is the key.
(33:33):
In practice, I would haveanimals that had a cancer Mast
cell tumor is probably about thebest one in terms of dogs and
they've had mast cell tumor.
They took off the left hind leglast year and they're going.
Gee, I wonder if I should getvaccines, and my recommendation
was no, I think we should avoidthem.
Thankfully we do not have arabies vaccine requirement where
(33:56):
I live, but anyway I wouldrecommend no.
But so many times I had animalsthat had had cancer and they
were vaccinated, as I call it,at elsewhere a vet hospital, and
a month after that vaccinationthey've got a lump that just
appeared.
Now.
Was it going to appear anyway?
(34:16):
I don't know, but it justseemed to happen a lot more
often than I really wanted it to.
Uh, the one that really shows upis when you have dogs or cats
with allergies.
If you vaccinate them, theirallergies will get worse.
You're mucking with the immunesystem, you're stimulating, and
so and and most, evenconventional vets will go that
(34:37):
route.
They'll try to avoid doingvaccinations during that dog or
cat's allergy season.
Okay, and I just want to hitone thing on the in terms of
allergies and such sure.
When, when we have a dog or catthat has a reaction to a vaccine
, the approach that's quiteoften used at that point is that
(34:58):
, oh, on the next vaccine, whatwe're going to do is we're going
to give an injection ofBenadryl about, say, half an
hour before, and then we'll givethe vaccine and then, hopefully
, that will prevent any reaction.
Well, if you had a reactionbefore, it could become
life-threatening later.
And are you going to take thechance on a shot of
antihistamine that's going toprevent the death of your pet?
(35:20):
The vaccine isn't thatimportant.
You can avoid giving it becausewe know it lasts longer.
We don't have to do it everyyear or every three years, and
so, therefore, trying to givesomething so we can get the
vaccine in, we have to look atwhat's important here.
That's the key.
Okay, but veterinarians are,unfortunately, I'm seeing a
(35:41):
trend backwards.
Speaker 2 (35:44):
So I live in a small town it's somewhere in the world
and there's one veterinarian intown versus in Houston.
I could probably seek out aveterinarian that had my beliefs
and, you know, work that way.
What would you suggest, as faras a pet parent, having those
conversations?
I mean, first of all, you haveto have the guts to stand up and
say I have concerns about this,but what else can we do to have
(36:05):
that conversation with our vets?
Speaker 3 (36:07):
Well, a big part of it is that it depends on the
veterinarian as to how receptivethey are to any conversation
about this and the way I wouldapproach that as a client.
When you say, oh, the vaccinesare due, and then the first
thing you should be thinkingabout saying if you're
comfortable saying this is that,gee, doc, I've got some
(36:30):
concerns about the vaccine.
Can we talk about that first?
And you're going to get one oftwo reactions.
You're going to get a reactionthat says, oh, yeah, let's go
over that.
What are your concerns?
But some veterinarians are justgoing to say, well, they're due
and I don't have time to talkabout this with you, okay.
And some of them will justbrush that off and say, no,
(36:53):
they're just due, and that'swhat hospital policy put it in
those words, right?
And if that's the case, thenthis is the key here you, as a
cat or dog owner, are in chargeof the health of your pet.
You should be able to haveinput there, and if the
(37:14):
veterinary can't respect that,then hey, you've got to find one
that you can talk to.
Speaker 2 (37:19):
Yeah, so you do have the right to speak up and say I
decline, I do not want to havethat vaccine.
Speaker 3 (37:25):
Exactly yeah.
Speaker 2 (37:26):
People just need to be better advocates for their
pets.
But it's awkward, you knowthere's an authority figure
that's telling you that they'rethe ones that went to the school
for an extra four years or more, and it's kind of hard to stand
up to that for some people.
Speaker 3 (37:39):
Yeah, and they're wearing a white coat and you
call them Dr Somebody, ratherthan my case.
I was known.
As for people who got formal atmy hospital, I was Dr Jeff.
Most of the time it was Jeff,which is great.
I love that.
But some of them don't have abarrier and they don't want to
do that.
(37:59):
So you have to take the healthinto your own hands.
And this is the biggest part.
When a medical procedure is doneat a veterinary hospital, you
as a client has to have informedconsent.
So if you're okay inchemotherapy on your dog or your
cat, you're supposed to begiven all the pluses, the
(38:20):
minuses and then you can make aninformed decision and give them
consent to go ahead with thetreatment.
How often when you go in forvaccinations are you given
informed consent?
How often when you go in forvaccinations are you given
informed consent?
Do they actually go over theguidelines and tell you about
the risks of the vaccination?
It's a medical procedure.
It's just the same as any otherprocedure.
(38:42):
Good point, but at the sametime that also lacks in human
land.
As I said, if you go in andhave a vaccine, they're not
going to sit down with you for10 minutes and go over all the
stuff.
So if you're thinking abouthaving a vaccine, then find out
what vaccine brand the hospitalis using.
Look up the drug, insert thething that lists all the things
(39:03):
about the medication and it hasall the side effects on there,
all the possible things that cango wrong.
Speaker 2 (39:15):
So start there.
Yeah, good point, yeah.
Speaker 3 (39:21):
Okay, anything else that we didn't cover that Well,
the main thing with all this isthat you are the advocate for
your dog or cat's health.
You're the one that gets todecide what's going on.
And the thing about thevaccines is that there are side
effects, there are things thatcan go wrong, and the getting on
the treadmill of giving themevery year, every three years or
something like that.
When you look at the scientificdata, it doesn't back up giving
(39:44):
them that often at all.
So the evidence points that wecan go much longer, and I think
that's really what we have tostart looking at in terms of hey
guys, why are we doing whatwe're doing?
It's due to tradition.
Speaker 2 (39:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (39:59):
That's it.
Yeah, that's really it.
Speaker 2 (40:01):
Well, jeff, thank you so much for being here with us
today and for sharing thisinformation.
I think, like I said, I thinkpeople are very confused,
they're anxious, they're worriedabout it.
And, like I said, I thinkpeople are very confused,
they're anxious, they're worriedabout it, and I think what
you've shared today has reallyhelped people to A better
understand things and bettercreate a plan for how they're
going to move forward with theirpets.
Speaker 3 (40:19):
Wonderful.
Glad to be helpful there, Amy.
Speaker 2 (40:22):
All right.
Thank you to everybody forlistening to another episode and
we will see you next week.
Thanks for listening to MuddyPaws and Hairballs.
Be sure to visit our website atmuddypawsandhairballscom for
more resources and be sure tofollow this podcast on your
favorite podcast app so you'llnever miss a show.
And hey, if you like this show,text someone right now and say
(40:42):
I've got a podcastrecommendation.
You need to check the show outand tell them to listen and let
you know what they think.
Don't forget to tune in nextweek and every week for a brand
new episode.
And if you don't do anythingelse this week, give your pets a
big hug from us.
As we take a short break between seasons of muddy
paws and hairballs, we'rebringing back one of the most
essential episodes for every petparent pet vaccination
essentials.
Vaccines are a crucial part ofensuring our pets live long and
healthy lives, but I've learnedthrough my own experiences that
understanding them fully can bea little more complicated than I
once thought.
Like many pet parents, I alwaysused to follow a pretty
(00:32):
standard vaccination schedule,but as I've learned more, and
especially having conducted thisinterview with Dr Jeff Grognett
, I've had to reconsider andeducate myself more on the
latest guidelines and the uniqueneeds of each of my pets.
In this episode, we dive intothe core things that every pet
parents need to know, whetherit's determining what vaccines
(00:55):
your pet really needs orunderstanding the risks of not
vaccinating.
I wanted to bring this episodeback because it's so crucial to
make informed decisions that arein the best interest of our
pets.
Whether you're new to petownership or you've been in the
game for years, this episode hasinformation you can use to make
the best interest of our pets.
Whether you're new to petownership or you've been in the
game for years, this episode hasinformation you can use to make
the best choices for your pets.
Stay tuned for expert insightsand personal tips that'll help
you navigate the world of petvaccinations.
(01:16):
Today, we're gonna be talkingabout vaccinations for your pets
, and my guest, who was actuallya guest very early on in the
show, dr Jeff Grognett, is apracticing veterinarian and an
award-winning author With over40 years in practice.
He's been actively teaching for35 years and has taught over
42,000 students wanting tocreate veterinary assisting
(01:37):
careers.
He has developed courses on petfirst aid behavior and training
, as well as holistic therapy.
First aid behavior and training, as well as holistic therapy.
Dr Jeff has a passion to teachowners how they can better care
for their pets.
From a holistic standpoint, hefocuses on nutrition, minimizing
vaccines and reducing toxinexposure.
So, dr Jeff, thank you andwelcome back to the show.
Speaker 3 (02:00):
Thank you very much, amy.
It's great to be here, great toget the message out.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
Yeah, definitely, and obviously I get your emails and
so I've seen all theinformation and the classes that
you've been having aboutvaccines and I thought this is
going to be a perfect topic fora perfect expert to help us kind
of get some things straight,because I think pet parents are
very confused and kind of don'tknow who to believe when it
comes to what our pets need fromthe standpoint of vaccinations.
(02:28):
So one of the things that hascome up is the idea and I had
never heard the term beforeexcept for in the past couple of
years is core vaccines versusnon-core vaccines?
What does that mean?
Speaker 3 (02:41):
That sort of moniker for the vaccines came out when
they developed vaccineguidelines, and so core vaccines
are the ones that areconsidered the life-threatening
quote common diseases that, inthis case, cats and dogs can
suffer from.
And so the core vaccines theguidelines suggest that they
(03:02):
should be done in all cats anddogs.
The non-core vaccines,differently, are ones that are
you can call them optional, andwhat they say with those is that
it depends on the risk and theexposure and what the pet is
going to be exposed to, as inwhat they may come down with, is
(03:23):
going to be exposed to, as inwhat they may come down with.
The definition of core andnon-core is strictly a
conventional mechanism and thatis just how they break down the
vaccines.
And there's also some confusionon what should be labeled as a
(03:48):
core and a non-core vaccine.
And, for example, a little whileago in California, they put
leptospirosis as a core vaccinein some areas because they were
seeing more cases.
So because of that, all of asudden lepto became a core
vaccine, according to thoseveterinarians in that area.
This is not something that isregulated, it's something that
veterinarians will sort of comeup with.
I'll call it by themselves, andwhat it does is.
(04:12):
It creates the idea of callingit CORE, creates an urgency that
you should get that vaccinedone.
It doesn't change the facts ofthe problems with vaccines how
often you really should do themthat type of thing but it does.
It is used as a moniker forsaying, oh, these are the
important ones and we've got todo them on this regular schedule
(04:33):
, conventionally.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
Okay, got it and so you know, for years and years it
was.
You know, every year you go toyour vet and every year you get
this barrage of vaccines and itseems like nobody ever really
questioned it.
But I think this issue iscoming up because we actually
have been finding that we areover vaccinating our pets and
that there are risks associatedwith that.
(04:56):
What kind of risks do our petsface when we over vaccinate?
Speaker 3 (05:02):
Yeah, well, I wouldn't even call it over
vaccinate, I'll just call itvaccinating, because as soon as
you say over vaccinate, thenit's kind of well.
What do you mean by that?
No, it's just.
Vaccinations can cause problems, and the one that's recognized
universally, of course, isallergic reactions.
(05:23):
You give an injection of avaccine and they can have a
life-threatening reaction.
I always think of it as in the,you know, the 10-year-old kid
who gets a peanut and they havean allergy, and then they end up
going to hospital.
They can have thoselife-threatening reactions.
The most common allergicreactions are the ones where the
face swells up and so themuzzle gets really thick, the
(05:47):
eyelids swell, the ears getthickened, and in those cases
it's like oh okay, we've got anallergic reaction going on here,
and then another one they canhave 12 hours later, 24 hours
later, is hives, so they canhave little bumps all over their
body which are very itchy, andso that's the allergic reaction.
(06:08):
That is the thing that isrecognized by all veterinarians
as in oh, that is a directvaccine reaction.
The other ones that occur areones that occur delayed, and the
one that came to the forefrontback in the 1990s was the one
(06:28):
that's called a felinefibrosarcoma.
It's a tumor that occurs at thesite of an injection in cats.
Now that used to be called avaccine-associated feline
fibrosarcoma, but what theyfound is that it's to any
injection you could have aninjection of antibiotics,
steroids, uh, program flea stuffand even microchips they can
(06:53):
stimulate, uh, growth of a tumorin cats say, okay, so that's
not a direct vaccine effect, butit's an effect of the injection
of the vaccine.
So so that's that cancer incats.
That was the thing that changedour whole thinking of gee,
vaccines are safe and effectiveversus oh no, vaccines are
(07:15):
causing a little bit of aproblem here.
Okay, so that actually that wasthe thing that changed the tide
in vaccines for real.
The other things that we see wecan see hemolytic anemia in dogs
.
That's where they startdestroying their own red blood
cells because their immunesystem's kind of messed up.
We can also see boneinflammation.
(07:37):
It's called hypertrophicosteodystrophy.
It's where they get bonechanges on their I call it the
fingers, and again, that's indogs as well.
But the other two things andthis is what's really pushed by
holistic practitioners is thatthere's two diseases that are
rampant and they're reallycausing problems and certainly
(07:58):
most holistic vets would say,yep, vaccines have a role in
this, and the two are allergies,which have so many dogs
suffering from and generatinghuge bills because of
medications that are used forthat too, and the other one is
cancer.
We're seeing so much cancer now.
Compared to when I graduated,the difference is night and day,
(08:20):
and that's just in my time as aveterinarian, and so because of
that, yeah, I think we have tosort of rethink our whole
strategy on vaccination.
Speaker 2 (08:32):
Yeah, and so how do we in general and then maybe get
into the specifics forindividual pets, but how does
one find that balance betweenprotecting my pets from the
obvious dangers and then notover vaccinating and figuring
out what's the right scheduleand for us to follow?
Speaker 3 (08:51):
Yeah, that's.
That's about a two day webinarthat I could do for you.
Amy, I'm quite sure this is OK.
For the first thing is here's asimple one it's based on the
risk of the disease.
Ok, and so let's take two.
The first thing is here's asimple one.
It's based on the risk of thedisease.
Okay, and so let's take two.
You've got an indoor cat.
(09:12):
Feline leukemia is only passedon from one infected cat to
another when they have a fight.
An indoor cat does not need thevaccine for feline leukemia.
That's real simple.
When you have a dog and you'reworried about Lyme disease, well
, you've now got a four-poundYorkie that lives in your
(09:35):
apartment with you and you goout with it under your arm, put
it down on a little bit of grassoutside your apartment building
, pee some poops, pick the dogup, go back in.
Lyme disease is not a threat.
That dog is not going to pickup a tick and get Lyme disease
in his world, right?
So you have to look at the riskfrom that standpoint.
(09:55):
The other side is and this iswhat a lot of people don't even
talk about is that, as you haveanimals that age and what I'm
talking about is puppy andkittenhood versus three years
old, say, distemper in dogs andalso parvo are puppyhood
(10:15):
diseases.
If you give parvo to an olderdog, they will usually survive
it.
They do quite well.
They will usually survive it.
They do quite well.
In the same way, cats withpanleukopenia, which is stupidly
called distemper, but it's alsoparvovirus, which everything is
really complicated on that one.
But the point is, felinepanleukopenia is a kittenhood
(10:38):
disease.
If you give that to an adultcat, yeah, they might get a bit
of vomiting, might get a bit ofdiarrhea, but it's well known
that if you have a pregnant cat,a queen that's pregnant, and
they pick up panleukopeniaduring pregnancy, they will end
up with birth defects in thekittens, they end up with this
really wild nervous problemcalled cerebellar hypoplasia,
(11:05):
and so the point is they survivethe infection just fine, right.
So the so the big thing is that, as as they start to age, their
immunity to the diseases get somuch better, and so even with
the core vaccines, it's like, oh, if you have a 10 year old dog
or cat, they don't need the corevaccines anymore.
(11:27):
They're not going to die fromit.
They're not kittens, they'renot puppies, right?
So there's a huge differencethere.
But the other side is and thisis the thing that's really come
to light is the effectiveness ofthe vaccines, and a great
example would be dogscoronavirus vaccine, and
(11:48):
coronavirus supposedly causes alittle bit of vomiting, diarrhea
, that type of thing when theydid the studies on the vaccine
that's available, what theyfound is that they couldn't
actually create disease with thecoronavirus virus in the
control group.
So, so, therefore, the vaccinedidn't prevent anything from
happening, wow, okay.
(12:09):
And so the case is that thestudies kind of show that, well,
what's it protecting againstNothing?
It's not needed, okay.
And then when we get into theleptospirosis vaccines, there's
a lot of concern on that, oneand two things.
One is that quite often itdoesn't produce immunity to the
(12:32):
leptospirosis strain that thedogs are exposed to.
But the other side is lepto andalso Lyme in dogs are your most
reactive vaccines causingproblems?
In cats, it's the felineleukemia one that causes a lot
(12:52):
of the problems.
So, as you can see, we have tostart.
We have to look at eachindividual vaccine.
It's not fair to label everyvaccine as causing huge problems
, right, there's specific onesthat do cause some real issues.
Some of them don't.
Speaker 2 (13:03):
Yeah.
So when a pet owner becausegenerally I think people don't
do a good job of askingquestions when they go to the
vet they go to the vet andthere's kind of two sides of it,
right.
There's the person that the vetsays fluffy is due for X, y, z,
and you get it all done.
And then you get the people onthe other end and oftentimes
it's economic reasons that theysay, well, I can't do all that
(13:27):
or I don't want to do any of itbecause my cat doesn't go
outside.
So you had mentioned the ideaof your living situation being a
major factor in deciding whatvaccines you need, and then age
of the pet.
Obviously that's going to playin.
Are there other factors that Ishould consider?
Obviously that's going to playin.
Are there other?
Speaker 3 (13:45):
factors that I should consider.
Yeah, this is where you have tolook at each of the diseases.
Generally, most dogs can getaway and this is dog land right
now most dogs.
You can get away with notgiving any of the non-core
vaccines because of lack ofefficacy and also concerns with
(14:05):
reactions to it.
The problems with a lot of thevaccines is they don't work that
well, and the best example isLyme disease.
Over 95% of dogs, when they'regiven Lyme disease, they will
just brush it off.
You won't even know that theyhad an infection.
An infection, okay, they theymay, might have a day where
(14:28):
there's a little bit off, butotherwise, no, they don't have a
problem there.
They end up, uh, just justgetting rid of it and like say,
most times you wouldn't evenknow it's Lyme disease.
There's a very small subset andthis is what's really
advertised in the veterinaryworld that they can suffer from.
Something called Lyme nephritisis a kidney infection due to,
(14:49):
or should say, kidneyinflammation due to, lyme
disease.
We also see the same thinghappening.
If you vaccinate a dog, you canget Lyme nephritis, that from
that.
So it doesn't have to be thepure.
You know the bug itself.
So you have to look at allthose aspects, as in gee.
Is it really worth it?
Should we be doing that?
In Catland there is a vaccineavailable and I just want to
(15:14):
throw this one out right now ForFIP.
It's feline infectiousperitonitis, which is a
coronavirus, and the vaccine hasbeen proven to not work Okay.
And if you look up the AmericanAssociation of Feline
Practitioners VaccinationGuidelines, it will say in there
vaccination for FIP is notrecommended.
(15:36):
That's the stuff that we shouldbe following and that is in the
vaccine guidelines which arecreated by the veterinarians
that know what's going on there.
But but the real, real bigthing about this uh, very simply
, amy, is we have to look at howlong vaccines last and the.
(15:58):
The pioneering work was doneback in the 1970s by a Dr Ron
Schultz, and what he did.
He was a veterinarian, ofcourse, and he had this concept
of why don't we vaccinate dogsonce, and I'm talking Cora
vaccines here, so distemper,parvo.
(16:18):
You vaccinate them once andthen you check them a month
later to find out did theyrespond to the vaccine?
You do it tighter and if youfind that they have produced an
immune response, that immuneresponse means that the immune
system is activated.
We have memory cells in therewhich persist for the lifetime
(16:39):
of the dog, we do not need to doanother vaccination period.
The same concept applies in catswith panleukopenia, not so much
with the respiratory viruses,because that's kind of like you
and me with the flu virus, right, and that is.
It's changing all the time.
So it's very difficult to have100% immunity to the feline
(17:03):
respiratory infections such asrhino and caliche, but that's
the fate of that one.
You're never going to have 100%on it because you can't
vaccinate for every strainthat's out there in the world.
And the other thing is cat anddog vaccines never change.
Is cat and dog vaccines neverchange?
(17:26):
They don't update the strainsin the vaccines from year to
year like they do with the humanflu vaccine or the COVID
vaccine or anything like that.
Okay, so they're staticvaccines.
They were implemented, createddecades ago, okay, but the main
thing is we've got them lastinglonger.
(17:46):
We don't need to vaccinateevery year or every three years.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
Well, and that actually brings up a question
that I hadn't thought aboutbefore is the whole idea of what
is the deal with these.
One year, like rabies is onethat is required in our
communities here in Texas, eventhough there are very few cases
of rabies that are out there inour communities here in Texas,
even though there are very fewcases of rabies that are out
there.
But obviously when you get intosituations where it's a disease
that can transfer to humans, Iguess that makes it a much
(18:11):
bigger deal.
But it used to be.
You got a rabies vaccine everyyear and then it's like well, if
you got it one year and thenyou get the booster the year
next, now you can go three years.
But is it the same vaccine?
Is it a different vaccine?
Speaker 3 (18:31):
It is the same vaccine, completely Okay.
The reason for the one thegetting it done as a puppy or
kitten and then doing it a yearlater and then moving to a three
year schedule is because thatis how the vaccine was tested
Okay, so the vaccinemanufacturer tested it that way.
Vaccine was tested Okay, so thevaccine manufacturer tested it
that way.
And and what they said is that,okay, based on a three year, a
three year interval we have, wehave good protection, so
(18:53):
therefore we can say it shouldbe done every three years.
It provides what they call 85%protection.
It's not a hundred percent,okay, and that's the thing.
Very few vaccines produce 100%,but in the case of rabies, 85
is the minimum for the threeyear duration.
The kicker is this you're notgoing to find a vaccine
(19:16):
manufacturer who's going to doan expensive study with the goal
to reducing their sales.
It just doesn't make sense forthem.
Speaker 2 (19:23):
Yeah, okay.
Speaker 3 (19:25):
The one thing I do want to comment on, though in
cats there has been a vaccinethat was produced which was
quote purer than the originalvaccines, and so because of that
it didn't have a lot of thegunk in there and it
specifically didn't have anadjuvant.
Adjuvant is additive vaccinesto bump up the immune response.
(19:47):
So the key with that is thatthe adjuvants were originally
were blamed for creating thehigher instance of the tumor,
the fibrosarcoma we were talkingabout.
Mm, hmm.
And so this this vaccine wasmanufactured, but because it
didn't have an adjuvant tostimulate immunity and it was
brought on sort of quickly, itwas only good for one year, so
(20:13):
that specific rabies vaccine hadto be done every year in cats.
This wasn't dogs, it wasstrictly cats.
But what we now know is thatthe incidence of tumor is no
different with thenon-adjuvanted one-year vaccine
and the three-year adjuvantedvaccine, and what we're doing is
(20:33):
we're giving three times asmany vaccine, which is just
boosts up the number of thetumors that can actually occur.
So very good reasons to avoidthe one-year vaccine and stick
with the three-year one if youhave to do it.
Uh, and unfortunately, as you,as you mentioned, amy, in texas,
but in pretty every us state,there is a requirement for
(20:57):
rabies vaccination.
There is something that in andthe number the number that I've
got from this and I don't knowhow accurate it is is 18 states
supposedly have exemptions forrabies vaccine that you can
actually apply for, so to speak,and but that has to be done by
a veterinarian and what they dois they apply for an exemption
(21:20):
based on the health of theanimal had, past reactions to
the vaccine or something likethat.
And certainly when you'redealing with a cat that's got
kidney failure.
You've got a dog that'sdiabetic or had cancer, like a
mast cell tumor, you know thingslike that.
It's kind of like gee.
Do we want to give them anyvaccines and mess up their
(21:40):
immune system here?
Speaker 2 (21:41):
Yeah, really.
Speaker 3 (21:42):
And if the answer is no, that's what we're trying to
avoid.
We're trying to prevent thatfrom happening.
Like you say, the rabiesincidence is really low, but
unfortunately, because it's ahuman disease, then you get
public health involved, andthey're the ones that stimulated
the rabies vaccination laws forthe dogs and cats Right right
(22:05):
so very hard to get around that.
Okay, and so because of that,unfortunately we do see some
areas where the rabies vaccineis really pushed, and this is
(22:33):
one sort of thing.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
I get, I guess, confused and concerned about.
Is that, when did?
Speaker 3 (22:34):
veterinarians become the police in the rabies
vaccines for animals.
Good point as in why are theythe ones that are pushing this
point when it's the you know,it's the law that should be
saying it, and then it should beour option to say, hey, I'm
going to, I'm not going to do it, I'm going to disregard the law
.
But the veterinarians quiteoften get in there saying that
we have to do it and it comesdown to their liability.
(22:58):
I think it's a little bitmisguided.
I don't think we do that.
It's the same thing with ourmedical doctors, where they do
the same thing to us.
Good question.
Speaker 2 (23:12):
Well, I think you know, as far as the rabies goes,
I mean, when it would ever comeup is really when you're trying
to do something like going to aboarding facility, going to a
training class, whatever itmight be, where there would be
required proof of rabies.
Because your average person whogoes to the vet once a year
gets done what needs to get done, has their pet in their home
and takes their pet everywherewith them and doesn't partake of
(23:35):
those facilities.
Nobody's ever going to questionwhether their dog has a rabies
vaccine, unless it bitessomebody.
Then that's a whole other ballof wax, but it's just not
something that's going to comeup.
Speaker 3 (23:46):
No, no, if you're just walking down the street,
you don't have the people askingyou can I see your rabies
vaccine before I pet your dog?
You know exactly.
But anyway, yeah, the thingabout that is that if you're
pushed into doing any vaccinesand this is just a case of if
(24:07):
you have to get vaccines donethere's also what we call remedy
, called Thuja, and it's spelledT-H-U-J-A, and that one is a
(24:31):
general remedy that's used forvaccinosis to prevent the side
effects of vaccines long term.
And then, if you're dealingwith rabies, the most common one
that's used is called Lyssin.
If you're dealing with rabies,the most common one that's used
is called Lyssin L-Y-S-S-I-N,because the rabies is a
Lysivirus.
That's where the name comesfrom.
Okay, okay.
(24:52):
And so I mean those arehomeopathic remedies that are
used a lot for incense, like adetox, and so definitely, if
you're getting that done, that'ssomething to consider as well.
Speaker 2 (25:04):
Okay, okay, so kind of along that same line for
somebody that might be concernedabout disease but at the same
time maybe more concerned aboutvaccines are there alternatives
to vaccines, to protecting ourpets from some of these common
diseases?
Speaker 3 (25:21):
Okay, well, there's two ways to go.
One is to reduce the vaccinesto a lower number as possible,
and the other one is to not usevaccines and use a different
method.
In terms of the differentmethod, that's where we're
talking about using homeopathicno-sodes, and no-sodes are
(25:42):
homeopathic preparations madefrom the disease itself.
It contains the virus, and thenthey're prepared in the
homeopathic method of dilutionand succession, as they call it,
and that is what's given to theanimal and this is the key it
doesn't produce an immuneresponse.
Okay.
Okay, so you can't measureantibodies after you give them a
(26:04):
homeopathic preparation.
What you're giving them thehomeopathic thing for is that
they're at risk of picking upthe disease, and what it does is
it helps the dog or cat getthrough that without having any
symptoms of the disease at thetime.
Okay.
And if you want to get intono-sodes, there's companies that
sell them both for dogs andcats, and you just look up
(26:28):
homeopathic no soads for caninedistemper, or you look for
feline leukemia or somethinglike that, and what you can do
is you can purchase them.
What I found is that each oneof them has different directions
on how to use them.
What I found is that each oneof them has different directions
on how to use them.
Okay, and so what you'll findis some say, give it twice a
(26:48):
week or something like that,during the susceptible period,
and then you give it once amonth or something like that.
They're all over the map onthat, and so where you purchase
it from, they'll be able to tellyou how you should use it.
Okay, but that's one method.
The other way, and this is theone that I used at the hospital
(27:10):
is and just here's a very simpleprogram for you and I'll tell
you what it is and then I'lltell you how it works.
What I was doing, for example,in dogs, is that I would see
them as a puppy dogs is that Iwould see them as a puppy at 16
weeks.
I'd see them before then.
But the first vaccine, and theonly vaccine I gave was at 16
weeks of age.
(27:30):
The reason we wait for that ismaternal antibodies have come
down, and so what happens is, asthey go down, there's no
interference from the maternalantibodies they got from their
mother's colostrum.
Therefore, they'll respond tothe vaccine at 16 weeks and 97%
of puppies respond then.
Okay, so we know that.
(27:51):
So what you do is you give thevaccine and this is a core
vaccine and then a month lateryou do a titer, and a titer is a
measure of the antibody in thebloodstream to that specific
disease.
And so, for example, we gave aparvovirus vaccine.
A month later we do aparvoviral antibody test, the
(28:16):
titer, and if we find that it'sgone up, the immune systems now
responded.
And that way we also know we'vegot a clone of white blood
cells called B lymphocytes,which are producing antibodies
to that virus, and they willpersist for life.
And this is something thatevery veterinarian knows and
learned in vet school.
(28:38):
As in yeah, immune system meanswe've got it for life.
Just like me having a poliovaccine when I was a little guy,
I don't get re-vaccinated whenI'm 40 years old or whatever.
It doesn't run out right.
So the key is, it does persistfor, as far as we know, a
lifetime for the memory cells.
(28:58):
So if the titer's proven thatyou got a response.
There's two big things here.
It means that oh, we've gotmemory there, we don't need to
revaccinate, and the other sideis we also don't need to do
another titer.
Speaker 2 (29:12):
Oh, okay, there's no point, because I was wondering
if that was going to besomething you have to keep doing
.
Speaker 3 (29:16):
No, well, some veterinarians do that, and what
they're doing is they're lookingat the antibody level in the
blood.
Well, it's natural for theantibody level to go down, but
even though that antibody levelmay be close to zero and it
probably never gets to zero,it's just the test can't detect
(29:38):
it.
But once it gets low enough,then they're saying, oh, there's
no immunity there.
No, if you give that dog avaccine, you're going to find
that the immunity goes up in aheartbeat, like in a couple of
days, Like boom, you've got it.
But the other side is, if thatdog picks up the disease, as in
picks up parvovirus, you know,when the level's gone down the
(30:05):
immune system is going to kickright into high gear and produce
what's called an anamnesticresponse.
That's a big word, but what itmeans is that the immune
system's already in charged andall you got to do is stimulate
that little bit with a diseaseor vaccine and the number goes
right up and it's protective andthey won't get sick.
So that's the key.
We can do one vaccine, onetiter, and then we're done.
(30:28):
Call one and done.
We don't have to do it.
Keep going.
Same applies to cats with thecore vaccine as well.
Speaker 2 (30:35):
Okay, so you know, and I kind of skipped over a
question that I was going to askyou, but I want to get back to
the idea of kind of traditionalversus.
I mean, that sounds like what aholistic veterinarian would
take, that approach versus atraditional.
And I know there's, you knowthere's a scale of people in
between.
It's not just one extreme orthe other, but from the one end,
(30:56):
where it's traditional and thisis just what we do, we give
vaccines every single time untilthe dog dies or cat dies versus
the one and done approach, howis a pet parent to know what's
the right thing to do?
Or how do you?
Do I just go out and look for aveterinarian that has this
approach over here, or do I tryto convince my veterinarian to
take that approach?
Or, you know, because it kindof, you know, we're not the vets
(31:19):
.
We're, you know, we're relyingon their advice when we go there
.
Speaker 3 (31:22):
That's right, yeah, and here's a few ideas for you.
I mean, I'm giving this ideaand if I had a conventional vet
right in front of me here,they'd be shaking their heads
going, no, that's not what I canbelieve.
This is the point.
It's not what I can believe in.
And so when people are lookingat alternative vaccinations,
(31:45):
they have to decide what do theybelieve, what are they
comfortable with?
And this was really broughthome with that.
You know that virus thing thatcame out in people called COVID
that one.
Yes, we got a completedissection of the population in
terms of what people believedabout the disease and the
vaccines.
Speaker 2 (32:05):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (32:06):
Okay.
So, we had people that werelining up to get vaccines
because they really wanted it,and we had the other group that
was saying, oh no, those thingsare dangerous.
But the point is you as in you,me and everyone else are
comfortable in going down thepath that you believe is the
(32:26):
right one to go into.
And whichever one you go into,you can probably get backing for
it.
You can do research and say,hey, this guy agrees with my
thinking.
Not that you're going in tochange your thinking, you just
get someone to back you up.
And so the thing about it isthis I was born and raised a
conventional veterinarian.
When I graduated in 83, we werevaccinating every year, um.
(32:51):
And then when things startedchanging and we realized that
the vaccines are causing someissues here and it was feline
fibrosarcoma was the biggie, uh.
The allergies, that that wasanother one, uh.
But then it's like gee, we gotall these other little niggly
diseases.
Some of them are huge, and andvaccines just aren't as safe as
(33:13):
we really believe.
Other veterinarians will tellyou, and the research papers
only look at what happens in thefirst three days after a
vaccination.
They don't look at what happensafter three months.
So for that reasoning.
Sometimes it's very difficultto get the information that you
really want, and this is the key.
(33:33):
In practice, I would haveanimals that had a cancer Mast
cell tumor is probably about thebest one in terms of dogs and
they've had mast cell tumor.
They took off the left hind leglast year and they're going.
Gee, I wonder if I should getvaccines, and my recommendation
was no, I think we should avoidthem.
Thankfully we do not have arabies vaccine requirement where
(33:56):
I live, but anyway I wouldrecommend no.
But so many times I had animalsthat had had cancer and they
were vaccinated, as I call it,at elsewhere a vet hospital, and
a month after that vaccinationthey've got a lump that just
appeared.
Now.
Was it going to appear anyway?
(34:16):
I don't know, but it justseemed to happen a lot more
often than I really wanted it to.
Uh, the one that really shows upis when you have dogs or cats
with allergies.
If you vaccinate them, theirallergies will get worse.
You're mucking with the immunesystem, you're stimulating, and
so and and most, evenconventional vets will go that
(34:37):
route.
They'll try to avoid doingvaccinations during that dog or
cat's allergy season.
Okay, and I just want to hitone thing on the in terms of
allergies and such sure.
When, when we have a dog or catthat has a reaction to a vaccine
, the approach that's quiteoften used at that point is that
(34:58):
, oh, on the next vaccine, whatwe're going to do is we're going
to give an injection ofBenadryl about, say, half an
hour before, and then we'll givethe vaccine and then, hopefully
, that will prevent any reaction.
Well, if you had a reactionbefore, it could become
life-threatening later.
And are you going to take thechance on a shot of
antihistamine that's going toprevent the death of your pet?
(35:20):
The vaccine isn't thatimportant.
You can avoid giving it becausewe know it lasts longer.
We don't have to do it everyyear or every three years, and
so, therefore, trying to givesomething so we can get the
vaccine in, we have to look atwhat's important here.
That's the key.
Okay, but veterinarians are,unfortunately, I'm seeing a
(35:41):
trend backwards.
Speaker 2 (35:44):
So I live in a small town it's somewhere in the world
and there's one veterinarian intown versus in Houston.
I could probably seek out aveterinarian that had my beliefs
and, you know, work that way.
What would you suggest, as faras a pet parent, having those
conversations?
I mean, first of all, you haveto have the guts to stand up and
say I have concerns about this,but what else can we do to have
(36:05):
that conversation with our vets?
Speaker 3 (36:07):
Well, a big part of it is that it depends on the
veterinarian as to how receptivethey are to any conversation
about this and the way I wouldapproach that as a client.
When you say, oh, the vaccinesare due, and then the first
thing you should be thinkingabout saying if you're
comfortable saying this is that,gee, doc, I've got some
(36:30):
concerns about the vaccine.
Can we talk about that first?
And you're going to get one oftwo reactions.
You're going to get a reactionthat says, oh, yeah, let's go
over that.
What are your concerns?
But some veterinarians are justgoing to say, well, they're due
and I don't have time to talkabout this with you, okay.
And some of them will justbrush that off and say, no,
(36:53):
they're just due, and that'swhat hospital policy put it in
those words, right?
And if that's the case, thenthis is the key here you, as a
cat or dog owner, are in chargeof the health of your pet.
You should be able to haveinput there, and if the
(37:14):
veterinary can't respect that,then hey, you've got to find one
that you can talk to.
Speaker 2 (37:19):
Yeah, so you do have the right to speak up and say I
decline, I do not want to havethat vaccine.
Speaker 3 (37:25):
Exactly yeah.
Speaker 2 (37:26):
People just need to be better advocates for their
pets.
But it's awkward, you knowthere's an authority figure
that's telling you that they'rethe ones that went to the school
for an extra four years or more, and it's kind of hard to stand
up to that for some people.
Speaker 3 (37:39):
Yeah, and they're wearing a white coat and you
call them Dr Somebody, ratherthan my case.
I was known.
As for people who got formal atmy hospital, I was Dr Jeff.
Most of the time it was Jeff,which is great.
I love that.
But some of them don't have abarrier and they don't want to
do that.
(37:59):
So you have to take the healthinto your own hands.
And this is the biggest part.
When a medical procedure is doneat a veterinary hospital, you
as a client has to have informedconsent.
So if you're okay inchemotherapy on your dog or your
cat, you're supposed to begiven all the pluses, the
(38:20):
minuses and then you can make aninformed decision and give them
consent to go ahead with thetreatment.
How often when you go in forvaccinations are you given
informed consent?
How often when you go in forvaccinations are you given
informed consent?
Do they actually go over theguidelines and tell you about
the risks of the vaccination?
It's a medical procedure.
It's just the same as any otherprocedure.
(38:42):
Good point, but at the sametime that also lacks in human
land.
As I said, if you go in andhave a vaccine, they're not
going to sit down with you for10 minutes and go over all the
stuff.
So if you're thinking abouthaving a vaccine, then find out
what vaccine brand the hospitalis using.
Look up the drug, insert thething that lists all the things
(39:03):
about the medication and it hasall the side effects on there,
all the possible things that cango wrong.
Speaker 2 (39:15):
So start there.
Yeah, good point, yeah.
Speaker 3 (39:21):
Okay, anything else that we didn't cover that Well,
the main thing with all this isthat you are the advocate for
your dog or cat's health.
You're the one that gets todecide what's going on.
And the thing about thevaccines is that there are side
effects, there are things thatcan go wrong, and the getting on
the treadmill of giving themevery year, every three years or
something like that.
When you look at the scientificdata, it doesn't back up giving
(39:44):
them that often at all.
So the evidence points that wecan go much longer, and I think
that's really what we have tostart looking at in terms of hey
guys, why are we doing whatwe're doing?
It's due to tradition.
Speaker 2 (39:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (39:59):
That's it.
Yeah, that's really it.
Speaker 2 (40:01):
Well, jeff, thank you so much for being here with us
today and for sharing thisinformation.
I think, like I said, I thinkpeople are very confused,
they're anxious, they're worriedabout it.
And, like I said, I thinkpeople are very confused,
they're anxious, they're worriedabout it, and I think what
you've shared today has reallyhelped people to A better
understand things and bettercreate a plan for how they're
going to move forward with theirpets.
Speaker 3 (40:19):
Wonderful.
Glad to be helpful there, Amy.
Speaker 2 (40:22):
All right.
Thank you to everybody forlistening to another episode and
we will see you next week.
Thanks for listening to MuddyPaws and Hairballs.
Be sure to visit our website atmuddypawsandhairballscom for
more resources and be sure tofollow this podcast on your
favorite podcast app so you'llnever miss a show.
And hey, if you like this show,text someone right now and say
(40:42):
I've got a podcastrecommendation.
You need to check the show outand tell them to listen and let
you know what they think.
Don't forget to tune in nextweek and every week for a brand
new episode.
And if you don't do anythingelse this week, give your pets a
big hug from us.
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