From the Vault: Responsible Rabbit Care Explained: with Marcy Berman, Save-a-Bunny Rescue

Bonus Episode From the Vault: The #4 Most Downloaded Episode of 2024!
While we’re on a break until Feb 4, we’re bringing back one of our listeners' all-time favorite episodes of 2024 from the vault!

Understanding responsible rabbit care is essential for anyone considering adding a bunny to their family. Join Amy as she interviews Marcy Berman, founder of Save a Bunny Rabbit Rescue, to discuss the complexities of rabbit care, the importance of spaying and neutering, and the misconceptions surrounding bunny ownership.

You'll Learn About:

• Marcy’s journey from discovering an abandoned rabbit to founding Save a Bunny Rescue.
• Common misconceptions about rabbits' needs and proper care.
• The challenges faced by rabbits in shelters and rescue environments.
• Why spaying and neutering rabbits is vital for health and population control.
• The emotional and physical benefits of having rabbits as pets.
• How fostering can help you better understand rabbit and small animal care.
• Ways to support rabbit welfare and advocacy in your community.

To Learn More About Save a Bunny Rescue:

• Visit: https://saveabunny.org/
• Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/SaveABunny

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:10):
Hey everyone and welcome back to Muddy Paws and
Hairballs.
We're taking a little breakright now, but don't you worry,
I haven't left you hanging.
Between now and February 4th,we're pulling out some of the
top episodes of 2024 from thevault so you can enjoy them
again, or maybe even catch themfor the first time.
Today, I'm thrilled to bringyou the fourth most popular
episode of the year ResponsibleRabbit Care Explained featuring

(00:34):
Marcy Berman, the incrediblepresident and founder of Save a
Bunny Rabbit Rescue inCalifornia.
If you've ever thought aboutadopting a rabbit or you already
have one hopping around yourhome, this episode is packed
with tips and insights thatcould make a world of difference
in your bunny's life.
Marci shares essential adviceon rabbit behavior, nutrition
and how to provide the bestpossible environment and care,

(00:57):
because, as we know, rabbitsaren't just cute.
They're actually complex littlecreatures that deserve very
thoughtful care and attention.
So sit back and relax and enjoythis fantastic episode.
And don't forget we're droppingnew episodes starting February
4th.
Until then, keep your earsperked for more gems from the
vault.
Now let's hop right in.

(01:31):
My guest today is Marcy Berman.
Marcy is the founder andexecutive director of Save a
Bunny Rabbit Rescue, which isbased in the San Francisco Bay
Area.
In 1999, while walking her dog,marcy found a domestic rabbit
that had been set free,otherwise known as abandoned.
25 years later, and 5,000rabbits saved, marcy has become
an international expert oncompanion rabbit rescue and
rehabilitation, with a specialfocus on trauma, abuse and

(01:53):
neglect.
Marcy says that companionrabbits are very much
misunderstood, they'reunderrepresented and they're
unprotected.
They are truly the underdog.
So, marcy, welcome to the show.
Thank you, thanks for having me.
Well, I appreciate you beinghere and I know in your
introduction I said that yourforay into bunny rescuing began

(02:16):
with a walking the dog scenario,and tell us a little more about
that.
You just happened upon a bunnyon the sidewalk taking a walk as
well, or how did that go?

Speaker 2 (02:26):
Well, I never thought I was a bunny person.
I still don't even reallyconsider myself a bunny person,
but I was walking my dog and Isaw a white and brown rabbit
running around in the street andthe only thing I knew about the
bunny at that time was that thebunny was not a wild rabbit,
because wild rabbits are notcolored white because then

(02:49):
they're target practice forpredators.
So I knew that she was.
I found out she was a, she wassomebody's pet, and it took me
about an hour and a half tocatch her.
I didn't know anything.
The only experiences I had hadwith rabbits were not good ones
growing up, and so I had beendoing some wildlife rehab with

(03:12):
wild care and I took my dog homeand I grabbed my wildlife heavy
wildlife gloves and dog foodbecause that's all I had I
didn't even know what they ateand a blanket and a flashlight,
and I went down and it took meabout an hour and a half.
I had to crawl under a car toget there.
And so I got her and then Idrove around to a guest safeway

(03:34):
and bought all the supplies Ithought I needed and of course
they were garbage, becausethat's usually the stuff they
sell at the stores.
But the next day I went backand looked around to see who
might've lost a rabbit and I I,this woman said, oh yeah, she,
she's ours, but we don't wanther, you can have her.
And I had offered her 20 bucks.

(03:57):
I'm like I'll give you 20 bucksfor the bunny.
She's like you can just haveher, we don't want her.
Wow, and so that started thewhole lifetime achievement award
for bunny rescue, I guess.
And so she was an amazingteacher and I guess it was meant

(04:17):
, and so much more sentient andopinionated and loving and just
everything about her opened myeyes to how unique rabbits were.

(04:41):
I had no clue.
I thought they were these cutebut not very bright animals that
lived in a hutch in thebackyard and that was about it,
and they were dumb and I hate tosay that, but that was really
where I started.
And so she was just an amazing,amazing being.
And she wasn't with us that long.

(05:02):
She was only with me for aboutsix months because the pet
sitter that I had hired, despiteleaving really specific
instructions, did not follow myinstructions, and there's
certain health issues withrabbits that you have to be very
careful about.
They're much more work than acat or a dog, and most people
don't think that, and so therabbit passed away from a

(05:25):
digestive problem.
So that was a big lesson Ilearned, and then I make sure
that everybody understands isthat rabbits really require some
extra care.
So that's how it all started.
And now it's been over 5,000rabbits later.
That's wild, and I mean rabbitrescues, not like breeding in my

(05:47):
house of 5,000 rabbits, ofcourse, because everybody here
gets spayed and neutered.
But that's how it started.

Speaker 1 (05:54):
That's great, that's great.
So you know, it's not to saythat we don't see.
I mean, I do rescue as well,mostly cats and dogs, and I've
got the occasional pony ordonkey that's here.
But why is it?
Do you think that people thinkthat it's just okay to let your
bunny go, like they'redisposable or something?

Speaker 2 (06:13):
I think there's a whole number of layers to that.
I think it starts in thatsociety itself, including the
animal community, doesn't viewrabbits as being as deserving or
worthy as cats and dogs, sothey do view them as disposable.
That's how society does, that'show a lot of the shelters,

(06:34):
especially the no-kill shelters,view rabbits is.
They're sort of disposable, andso I think people also
misunderstand Rupert's getting alittle fussy.

Speaker 1 (06:46):
Yeah, for those of you who are lucky enough to be
watching this on YouTube, youcan see that Marcy is holding a
bunny.
That is so darn cute that hedoesn't even look real.
To me he looks like a stuffedanimal and it just makes me
wonder, like I can't imaginejust setting him out to be
predator bait, because that'sbasically what you're doing, I
mean, unless somebody luckilycomes along like you did and

(07:09):
catches them or goes through allthat trouble.

Speaker 2 (07:12):
I think a lot of people misunderstand that
companion rabbits, thesedomestic rabbits, are non-native
.
They are not related tojackrabbits and cottontails,
they can't even interbreed, andso people think that you take a
rabbit and you set them free andthey're just going to go and be

(07:33):
fine, and they'll usuallystarve to death or get picked
off by a predator.
So they are not the same as ourwild rabbits.
They are descendants ofEuropean rabbits who were
brought over hundreds of yearsago.
So that's, I think, a bigmisperception.

Speaker 1 (07:52):
Yeah, I hope everybody who's ever thought
about doing that with theirbunny now listens to that and
hears that.
I could understand how somebodymight think, oh well, I see
bunnies outside, so why can't mybunny go outside?
I mean, I would never do it,ignorant or not.
It's just not the right thingto do.
But I could kind of see wheretheir logic might come from.
As far as I mean, obviouslyyou've got a bunny rescue,

(08:14):
you've rescued 5,000 bunnies.
I mean, how big of a bunnyrescue, bunny abandonment issue
is it?
What would you say as far asbunnies that are in rescues and
shelters across the US right now?

Speaker 2 (08:27):
Well, it's hard to track because I know what I see
and I know what my colleaguessee in the shelters.
But one of the issues is thatrabbits fall in this gray area
where farm animal people don'ttrack them and dog and cat
agencies don't track them.
So at many shelters theeuthanasia statistics and the

(08:50):
intake statistics are dog, cat,other, which is also kind of
revealing about what our societyviews as worthwhile companion
animals or worthwhile animals tobegin with.
So rabbits get classified inwith the snakes and the pigeons
and the guinea pigs and the miceand everyone else and they're

(09:13):
also equally worthy of beingtracked.
But I've had to push to get alot of the shelters to track
rabbits and I give kudos to SanFrancisco Animal Care and
Control, Rohnert Park, some ofthe marine humane sites.
They track their rabbits, butat most shelters they don't.
And at a lot of shelters theydon't even charge an adoption

(09:35):
fee for a rabbit, which isridiculous.
And they don't spay and neuter,which, when you think about any
animal that really ought to getspayed or neutered before they
get adopted, it should be arabbit.
And so there's been legislationto make sure that animals in
California are fixed before theygo out to adoption, but they

(09:56):
excluded rabbits.
And so a lot of times some ofthe shelters that take in
rabbits, they're so eager to getthem out of their system that
they just either adopt them outfor free or they really don't
screen.
And so you know this is such abig topic that I could go on
forever about this, and part ofit is I place a lot of

(10:21):
responsibility on the no killmovement movement for some of
this, because no-kill soundsgreat, except that it really
does mean no killing anadoptable animal, and adoptable
is very vague, and so for placesthat are privately run that

(10:45):
find rabbits to be problematic,they're harder to place.
You can't make any money off ofrabbit licensing and rabbit
training, even though they canbe trained.
The shelters can make money offof things like that and they
don't with rabbits, and so nokill only includes usually

(11:08):
adoptable cats and dogs.
So rabbits get left behind.
They get left behind everywhere.
They get left behind by the farmanimal movements that left them
out of Prop 2 years ago aboutcaging.
They said, oh, we'll come backfor them, and then nobody did.
And they get left out oflegislation about fur.

(11:29):
Even with AB44 in California,rabbits were used as a
bargaining chip by some of thebigger agencies to say, look, if
you pass this legislation toprotect against fur animals,
we'll back off on rabbits,because there's a big rabbit
meat and rabbit fur lobby inCalifornia and so we ended up

(11:51):
being one of the only groupsthat stood up for rabbits, and
it's really frustrating.
So it's hard to get a lot ofchange for them if the people
that we would hope would standbehind rabbits are not there.
Some are but there's a big pushfor dog and cat food made out of
rabbit meat because it's amarketing.

(12:13):
You know, lean protein.
It's a lot of BS, honestly,because we've done a lot of
research on hot and cold dietsand we've approached places like
Pet Food Express to ask themnot to sell it or to sell it
only a special order, and theybasically said they make more
money selling it than they wouldif we ask people not to shop

(12:35):
there.
So it's a big problem whererabbits, just nobody wants to
deal with it and they're kind ofwhere cats used to be, maybe 50
years ago, where cats were thismisunderstood.
Let them live outside, figureout their own lives, and so
rabbits are way behind in thatand I think people are afraid of

(12:57):
them sometimes because a lot ofpeople grew up with these
rabbits that were outside, thatwere not fixed, that were
probably really cranky, and sothey.
I didn't have good experiences,so they don't really understand
how much rabbit medicine andrabbit behavior is moving into a

(13:17):
much more modern time.
By the way, before I go anyfurther, I want to say that what
I'm doing with Rupert holdinghim here, is with his permission
.
He is a prey animal, I am apredator, and so I'm doing what
I usually don't do.
I usually don't sit and hold arabbit in front of people
because I don't want them toexpect that they are going to be

(13:40):
able to do that with a preyanimal and it's a matter of
trust and he's being trained tobe an ambassador bunny see.
If he likes that kind of work,then he doesn't have to do it.
But I don't want people toexpect to be able to walk around
and hold a rabbit, because it'sa gift that they give us and it
shouldn't be an expectation.

Speaker 1 (14:02):
Well, you've made several good points and I want
to hit on that for just a second, because I've run into that
issue and I think a lot of itgoes back to just understanding
not only the behavior of thespecies, of whatever the animal
is, and not've run into thiswith little dogs before, where

(14:26):
agencies won't adopt out alittle dog because maybe they
get a little nippy withstrangers if a stranger tries to
pick them up and it's like,well, if you think about it from
the dog's perspective or fromthe bunny's perspective, they're
kind of helpless and so theyjust get ripped off the ground
by whomever and flung hither andyon, and it's like you wouldn't
do that to a German shepherd.

(14:51):
What makes you think that that'sokay to do it to a little dog
or to a bunny?
Like you said, it's somethingthat comes with getting to know
the animal, building that trust,making the animal feel safe and
within their limits.
When he's decided it's done,you put him down.
You don't force him to endure.
And I don't really understandwhy people feel like they need
to impose so much of theirbehavior on small animals.
And then I also wanted to justjump back to before we get too
far ahead is the whole, becausenow I want to call my shelters

(15:14):
and see as far as the way thatthe numbers get counted.
You're right, it's it's dogseuthanized, cats euthanized, and
then I know wildlife gotcounted.
But yeah, where does if a bunnyhad to be, or a bird or
whatever it might be, did iteven get counted?
And that's something that youknow, people should know, and I
have a lot of issues personallywith the whole no kill thing.

(15:36):
The concept is awesome, but theway that it's being implemented
has a lot of problems andthat's a whole episode for
another, another show, andthat's a whole episode for
another show.
But you're so right and I thinkpeople need to hear that again
that no kill doesn't mean thingsdon't get euthanized.
No kill basically meanswhatever they want to define it.

(15:57):
As for a lot of organizations,like at one point one of the
groups that I was working withdidn't count wildlife as things
that they euthanized and it'slike, well, why shouldn't that
count?
It's sort of a shell game.
It's like they can make it whatthey want to make it based on
what they include.
Don't include what parametersthey put in.
Well, whether it's healthy, whodefines that?

(16:18):
Whether it's behaviorallyappropriate, who defines that?
Do they even know what they'redoing?
So I have a lot of issues withno-kill.
And then I also wanted to make apoint too about what you said
is about, about spay and neuter.
And not only is it so important, I think, from the standpoint
of bunnies having lots of bunnybabies, but most people don't
know how to sex a bunny.
They don't even have a clue andit's not an easy thing to.

(16:40):
It's not as obvious as a dog,let's say, let's just put it
that way.
And so you know, person getsbunny home, has no idea whether
it's spayed or neutered, orknows for a fact it's not.
Somebody told him it was a girl.
So they get another girl and loand behold, it's not another
girl.
And now they've got bunnies.
You know, I bet you, thathappens a lot.

Speaker 2 (16:57):
Well, people ask me about Easter time.
And is Easter terrible?
And Easter, you know, has thepotential to really bring in
people, to educate them.
But what happens is and itamazes me that it happens every
single year You'd think it wouldnot happen, but you would think
it would not happen all thetime.
But people go and they get thetwo girls that the pet store or

(17:19):
the breeder is so sure that theyare two girls and they're hard
to sex.
Rabbits are hard to sex whenthey're under about seven to
eight weeks.
Now, most of the time it'sillegal to sell an animal or
adopt an animal out who isunweaned.
However, rabbits get placed waytoo young because people want

(17:41):
little, which is also a wholeother thing.
You really don't want little,you want big, you want a big
mellow bunny.
So they want to get thesebunnies sold or placed while
they're little.
And they're really not weaneduntil they're about seven to
eight weeks old, and a lot oftimes you'll see them being

(18:01):
offered up at three to fourweeks old, which is terrible
it's terrible, but again,they're not protected, and so
when you get animals that young,they never especially rabbits
they don't get enough of theproper nutrition and they don't
get the healthy bacteria thatthey need from the mother's milk

(18:22):
, and so they grow up withproblems.
They grow up with digestiveproblems, and they're just not
as healthy as they should be.
So what happens is is, atEaster, people go out and they
get two baby bunnies for theirkids or their girlfriend or
whatever.
And then rabbits becometeenagers at about three months

(18:45):
old and it's very easy to sex amale rabbit once their testicles
descend, because you'llprobably end up cutting this out
, but they are very well endowed.
Okay, you cannot miss what'sgoing on down there if you know
what you're looking for.
And so as soon as the testiclesdescended, around three months,
the males are fertile, and sothey're also fertile for a month

(19:08):
after you neuter them.
So what happens is is thatpeople go out.
They might neuter their male,maybe not, but the males start I
mean the males and femalesstart to become dominant and
humpy and things like that,because they're teenagers, and
so the girls usually can getfixed around four to five months
old.
But you get teenage rabbits whoare really acting up or

(19:30):
breeding right around Christmastime.
So the Easter bunnies end updumped at the shelters at
Christmas and there's a lot ofunwanted litters.
There's a lot of teenagerabbits that were these very
sweet baby bunnies that haveturned into little teenage
monsters who are hormonal andthey're acting like a rabbit

(19:55):
should be at a teenager and theymust get fixed Now.
another thing with rabbitsgetting altered is that a lot of
vets won't see rabbits becauserabbits need special anesthesia.
So the Bay Area we have a lotof really good doctors but say
you're in the middle of nowhere.
There are not vets that knowhow to do this and rabbits are

(20:18):
fragile under anesthesia.
And so they don't want to spayand neuter the rabbits because
they think the rabbit's going todie.
So they end up not fixing therabbits and sending them out
intact.
We've had rabbits come in fromshelters that have been there
left with another male.
They give birth from being in ashelter, intact with each other

(20:39):
and that's just creating moreof the same problem.
But if you get your free rabbiton Craigslist and then you want
to go get her fixed at aprivate vet, it's going to cost
you between $600 to $1,000 toget your bunny fixed because of

(21:00):
the anesthesia.
There are no grants, there's nofreebies, there's nothing out
there for rabbits.
So we get them fixed throughour veterinarians and it's not
quite as expensive as that and alot of the better shelters spay
and neuter.
But someone who gets their freerabbit off of Craigslist is not
going to go spend that amountof money.
And then if you don't fix yourrabbit, they especially the

(21:26):
females, they have an 80% chanceof getting cancer by the time
they're three.
So we see a lot of rabbits whoend up in the shelters, who are
five or six years old, that weredumped by people and when we
get them in to get spayed theyhave masses, they have uterine
masses or mammary masses orsomething, and then we get them

(21:47):
out and then they have a 50-50chance.
But it's really sad and all ofthis is preventable if you go to
a rescue to get your rabbit andyou get a little bit educated
before you go out and get a pet.
I try to remind people thatrabbits are very similar to
horses.
So horses require a lot ofmoney, expert care and they're

(22:09):
not easy, and so rabbits andhorses are actually more similar
in a lot of ways than rabbits,cats and dogs, because both
rabbits and horses are prey,they have similar digestive
systems.
Whereas horses might get colic,rabbits will get bloat.
Rabbits' teeth grow throughouttheir whole life.
So there's a lot of urban mythsthat you have to cut the

(22:33):
rabbit's teeth and you don't.
You absolutely do not want todo that.
Some of the rabbits that arefancy breeds end up with bad
teeth because they're made tolook a certain way.
They smush the face in, theyflop the ears.
You know floppy ear rabbits arenot natural, they're man-made.
A prey animal is made withfloppy ears, where they can't

(22:53):
see and they can't hear.
But rabbits are not a basicstarter pet at all and they're
not great for kids either, and Ireally wish that this is.
One of my biggest wishes isthat other groups that work with
other animals would step up andhelp, because it's really
asking too much of a couple ofsmall rabbit rescue groups to

(23:16):
educate the whole world aboutrabbit care.
Yeah, and they're just.
There's not the resources,there aren't grants, there
aren't.
You know, there's no Maddie'sFund, there's nothing other than
individual donors.
It's just very hard to get theword out about them.

Speaker 1 (23:35):
Well and I know I mean that's one of the reasons
we're doing this podcast is notjust this episode per se, but
the whole podcast itself is allabout education to get pets good
homes and keep pets in goodhomes.
And I think it's so importantthat people hear what you said,
because I think so many peopledo think that bunnies are a
starter pet and they're not.

(23:56):
If you're doing it right and Ithink that's the key, the
expense and the care is allabout giving the proper care for
the animal.
We just did an episode on thefive welfare needs of animals,
just in general, and the factthat people really need to
educate themselves.
I mean there's plenty ofinformation you can find if
you're looking for it properinformation about bunnies and

(24:19):
what's the appropriate habitat,what's the appropriate diet, why
it's so important to spay andneuter them, et cetera, et
cetera.
And people just need to educatethemselves and not do this
spontaneous.
And I'll be the first one toadmit I did it when my and it
wasn't really for my daughter,it was really more for me as an
animal person but I was comingout of a Kmart because I was

(24:40):
getting my daughter's babypictures.
This is 30 years ago, okay, andgetting her baby pictures or it
probably was an Easter pictureor something done, because she
was born in March and there wasa guy with a pickup truck and he
had a crate full of bunnies.

Speaker 2 (24:54):
And when I say full of bunnies, I'm talking about
don't, don't, don't tell me yeah, cause I already know yeah.

Speaker 1 (25:01):
So I felt so bad for the bunnies, especially one that
was on the very bottom of thestack, that I just basically
bought him right there on thespot, had not planned, and I'm
an experienced animal careperson and I'd worked for a vet
for eight years, so I knew someof the basics but I certainly
didn't know all of what neededto be involved and I also didn't

(25:21):
realize how long bunnies livethat bunny.
I think the bunny well, let'sput it this way long bunnies
live that bunny.
I think the bunny well, let'sput it this way it lived long
enough that I want to say it wasover 10 years that it lived.
I mean, it was a long, a longcommitment and a lot of things
that you have to do to maketheir life worthwhile, for them
to live, and living in a hutchor you know, or in a fish tank

(25:44):
in somebody's bedroom is not alife for a bunny rabbit.

Speaker 2 (25:48):
No, it's terrible.
And then also there's a lot ofreally bad information out there
about bunnies.
And if you really want to learnabout rabbit care and I would
bet you to some extent that thisis, and I'm just putting it out
there, it's probably similarwith other rescue groups is, if
you really want to know the mostaccurate information, the most

(26:11):
modern, the most cost effectiveis to look at a rescue group, a
good rescue group's website, nota breeder website, because
breeders, their whole philosophyis different.
Theirs is about what the rabbitlooks like and how to keep the
coat shiny and what the showquality is and all that kind of

(26:33):
stuff.
And a lot of it is veryold-fashioned.
4-h is really old-fashioned.
It's an agricultural group.
They have meat pan rabbits,they have meat rabbits.
So these agricultural groupsand these breeders put out bad
information.
Plus, there's bad informationout on the.
You know the internet anywayfor stuff.

(26:54):
It's almost like if you were togo on the internet and you said
, how do I parent my child?
You would get a milliondifferent things and some of
them are good and some of themaren't, but the way the-.

Speaker 1 (27:04):
Yeah, you'd really want to know the source and the
legitimacy of the source.

Speaker 2 (27:09):
Right and rescues are trying to deal with medical
issues, behavioral issues forthe least expensive way they can
and the longest lasting.
I have several volunteerswho've had rabbits that live to
be over 16.
I have a 15-year-old rabbitwho's here and they can live a

(27:31):
really long time, and so youwant to be prepared for that
financially, space-wise,emotionally.
You need to know you're gettinginto a major commitment.
And so when we have peoplecoming looking to adopt a rabbit
for a child, we want to makesure that the parent is really

(27:51):
into this, and so if they're not, then foster homes are a great
option because that helps usfree up space to rescue other
rabbits and then people have agood experience.
We also will select the foster,so we will put in bunnies that
are harder to place or shy orthey need something.
So it's a win-win that theyfoster and then they're not in

(28:13):
it for 10 to 15 years and that'sfine.
But it is a problem when peopleget their kid a bunny and their
kid is 16 or whatever, and thebunny gets dumped at an older
age at a shelter.
They grieve.
People don't understand howemotionally complex rabbits are.

(28:35):
They're very, very sensitiveand emotionally intuitive.
So it's hard on them when theyget dumped and they do grieve
and they can grieve to deathwhen they lose their friend or
they're dumped at a sheltersomewhere and feel abandoned.
Oh, you know I was going tomention something.
One of the things that I try todo when I'm talking about

(28:57):
rabbits you'll probably noticethis is that I always say he or
she, even if I don't know thesexes, even if I don't know the
sexes, I won't use the word itonly because I want to avoid
somebody looking at a rabbit asa it.

Speaker 1 (29:13):
We've talked about some of the challenges,
obviously, in caring for bunnies, and that they do require a
significant amount of care andunderstanding and education.
What makes all that worth it?
Why do you feel like bunniesare such great companions?

Speaker 2 (29:28):
Well, I think they're great companions for the right
home, they're not greatcompanions for everyone.

Speaker 1 (29:35):
That's a good point is that they're not for
everybody, but let's say for theperson that's done their
homework and knowing how toprovide for their needs.
What are the benefits and whatare the challenges of having a
bunny as a pet?

Speaker 2 (29:47):
Well, there's a lot of benefits and challenges.
The benefits are that they'reincredibly smart, much more than
you would think and actuallythe closest media representation
for a rabbit is actually BugsBunny.
That is really pretty accurate.
They are naughty.

(30:07):
That's why you have to have asense of humor, because they
just can't help themselves.
They're really curious.
Once they put their mind on aproject, they are fixated on
that project, which means say,they want to get in a room of
your house that you don't wantthem in.
They will watch you and waituntil you go away and then they

(30:28):
will find a way in.
They are just very persistent.
They're funny.
What I love about them is thatand I kind of relate to this is
that they are a mix betweenbeing very vulnerable,
misunderstood and alsoincredibly brave and little.
You know I relate to that.
But they will stand up forthemselves.

(30:48):
You'll see a little two orthree pound rabbit.
This little guy, malcolm, isabout a little over three and a
half pounds.
But a rabbit will stand upagainst the dog.
I mean you don't want to putthem in a bad situation,
obviously, because they'll lose,but I have lived with rabbits
and dogs and cats all togetherand the rabbit is almost always
the boss.
You know you have to be carefulintroducing predators and prey

(31:11):
animals, but rabbits, they'rejust funny.
They can be clicker trained.
They, when they're spayed andneutered, they use a litter box
just like a cat, so they'reclean.
They're herbivores, so theirpoop doesn't smell.
You can throw it in the gardenand helps your roses, their food
doesn't smell.
You can throw it in the gardenand it helps your roses.
Their food doesn't smell.
You know they eat mostly hayand some rabbit pellets and

(31:36):
fresh greens like cilantro andparsley and dandelion greens,
and so they're a nice cleananimal to have around.
So your house doesn't smelllike cat food, cat poop.
You know it's not the bestsmell out there.

Speaker 1 (31:55):
No, it is not.

Speaker 2 (31:56):
No, and they're very loving.
They're very, very loving.
But, again, you have to winthem over to some extent because
they're prey.
You have to build trust withthem.
This this takes a lot of trustfor this guy to let me sit here
and hold him like this while I'mbusy doing other things, and so
I think it's important forpeople who want to live with the

(32:17):
rabbits understand that youhave to work around a rabbit's
needs and interact with them ontheir level.
When I go to a shelter torescue or I go on some rescue to
triage, I always lower myenergy a lot and I basically
energy flash and say here I am,you can read me, I'm not going

(32:41):
to harm you, you're in control.
You let me know when you'reready to come forward and they
do control.
You let me know when you'reready to come forward and they
do.
And that's how I can see whenthey are moving out of a trauma
cycle as well, because theythey're very, very good
communicators.
You just have to understandtheir language, but they're
really clear.

Speaker 1 (33:00):
Let me time you out for one second, because the
bunny I think the bunny'srubbing on your microphone, so
I'm getting a lot of he wantsshh, shh.

Speaker 2 (33:07):
That's probably me.
That's probably me.
And I was sitting there tryingto move the cord because if I
was a rabbit person and I waslooking at this, I'd be thinking
that cord is going to go injust a second.
So that's also one of thechallenges with bunnies is you
do need to bunny proof, becausethey're curious.
They can't tell what's safe andwhat's not safe.

(33:28):
So if you have plants in yourhouse that are toxic, they don't
know and they will get poisoned, they will chew your wires, and
so you have to really move thewires out of the way.
You can't just cover them.
You have to bunny proof and youhave to work around the rabbit.
So say, for example, the bunnydecides that they really want to
dig at the carpet in one cornerof your room, you're basically

(33:50):
going to have to work around therabbit and put a brick there,
because other than that, therabbit is now forever fixated on
that corner.
And that's fine.
You know, that's fine.

Speaker 1 (34:00):
Because digging is a natural behavior for them and
they need an outlet for thatDigging and chewing and they can
be destructive.

Speaker 2 (34:08):
So they don't have to have your whole house, but they
at least have to have a room torun around and play.
No outdoor time.
There's two fatal diseases thatare relatively new that even
when we all grew up with bunniesoutside it's no longer safe.
There's a RHDV, which wasmanmade to kill the wild rabbit

(34:30):
population overseas, and it isalmost 100% fatal and so it is
found in the United States.
There's been outbreaks of it inother countries and it's a
horrible, horrible way for themto go.
There is a vaccine, but again,if you're getting your free
rabbit off of Craigslist or apet store or a breeder, they're

(34:52):
not going to vaccinate and it'sa yearly vaccination.
And then there's myxomatosis,which is carried by mosquitoes
and, for example, there's aplace called Tilden Park out
here in Berkeley and they had apetting zoo with rabbits out
there and they died because theygot my petting zoo with rabbits
out there and they died becausethey got myxomatosis.
So that's another challenge forsome people is rabbits cannot

(35:14):
go outside.

Speaker 1 (35:16):
Yeah, I was going to ask you about that because I
thought, you know, not everybodywants to necessarily turn over
a room.
Because that's what I've donewith my rescue birds.
They've taken over my office.
They've got a giant it'sactually a catio for cats that I
have for the birds so because Icouldn't find a birdcage big
enough for the times where Ineed them to not be pecking at

(35:37):
my earrings or whatever the casemay be.
But for the most part they havefree run of that room.
But even that, I still feelsort of bad about keeping them
inside.
I guess you have to.
Even that, I still feel sort ofbad about keeping them inside.
You have to.
I guess you have to balancethat out.

Speaker 2 (35:53):
Keeping the bunnies indoors versus the risk of
disease is just not worth it,right?
And also, if you're, if you'readopting a rabbit, they should
become an integral part of thefamily, so they shouldn't be
stored away in a garage or in acage.
Most of the time, there's nopoint in adopting a rabbit.

Speaker 1 (36:09):
Yeah, it's like, why have a pet if you're going to do
that?

Speaker 2 (36:12):
So having them out while you're watching TV and
they'll jump up on the sofa withyou.
I watch movies occasionallywith bunnies.
They have to be considered asintegral, a member of the family
, as a beloved cat or dog.
They're not a caged animal andyou know we were talking earlier

(36:32):
about starter pets and I justam a firm believer that no
animal is a starter pet.

Speaker 1 (36:38):
I agree.

Speaker 2 (36:40):
You know I mean, I know that's easy for me to say,
but sometimes when people can'tmake a 10 or 15 year commitment
to a rabbit and they're a goodhome, then rats make a great
they are great pets yep, but youknow you have to be really in
it for the long haul right bunnyand they're expensive to do it
right.

(37:00):
Their vet care can be expensive.
There is one company that doesinsurance Nationwide does
insurance but you need to beprepared Like we had a bunny
that just came out of surgeryfor liver lobe torsion, so the
liver lobe twists and for us itwas a $2,500 surgery.
For the general public it'sprobably $5,000, $6,000.

Speaker 1 (37:22):
You could say twice as much yeah.

Speaker 2 (37:24):
Twice as much.
We don't always get that muchof a discount, but that one we
did, and you don't want to be ina position of having to make
your decisions based on finances.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (37:36):
We did a whole episode on pet insurance before
the holidays.

Speaker 2 (37:42):
Yeah, for your rabbit every month.
Put some money in there so thatwhen it does happen because it
will happen at some point thatthey may need to go to the
emergency room or something likethat then you're prepared.

Speaker 1 (37:55):
Right, yeah, and I think that's good advice for all
pets.
I think it is so important thatpeople look at I feel like I'm
preaching the preach that Ialways preach.
But it's like the right fit petfor you, not just I want.
When I saw, well, this bunny isobviously adorable as well, but
the other, the floofy bunny youstart thinking, oh, I really
want one of those.
And it's like, no, I reallydon't.

(38:16):
You know, it's like it's not forme, the way that my life is now
, and I think people need tothink about that.
They need to think about whattheir life is like, what their
environment is like, what theirbudget is like, how long of a
commitment they're willing tomake.
And if more people did that, wewouldn't have so many bunnies
and other critters in sheltersand rescues because they give

(38:37):
them up.
And that kind of ties to mynext question I wanted to ask I
think you've given us some hintsas to some of the reasons why
people might give up bunnies,but is that the destruction, the
mischievousness?
What are some of the commonreasons that you hear from
people?

Speaker 2 (38:55):
It's rarely the destructiveness, unless you got
a bunny from a pet store orsomeplace that didn't tell you.
But we don't even do same-dayadoptions, so we are very
careful about who we adopt to.
I think that they end up a lotof times in the shelters for a

(39:17):
variety of reasons Kids gettingthe bunny for kids, and then the
kids expect a rabbit to be likea stuffed animal and while
Malcolm is letting me hold him,he's just really a good boy.
I'm picking a rabbit that Iknow likes this because I know

(39:38):
him already.
But, if somebody goes and gets abunny as a little baby and the
baby doesn't know any better andlets you hold him or her, and
then all of a sudden, sudden isa teenager, the rabbit is now
considered mean by people.
So their little baby has becomea teenage rabbit and they get

(39:58):
dumped at the shelters.
And people, as I mentionedearlier, don't want to pay to
get the rabbit fixed.
I think that they don'tunderstand rabbit behavior and
they'll often think that arabbit is boring because the
rabbit won't play with them.
And rabbits play in ways thatprey animals play.
They are not going to.

(40:18):
I mean, you can train them toretreat.
They are smart.
You can clicker, train them todo all sorts of things, but
rabbits play by running anddigging and dancing and weaving
and bobbing and that's how theyplay.
So if you're expecting a rabbitto just sit there quietly by
your side.
They can do that if they feellike it, but it's really up to

(40:39):
them.
I think people don't realizehow much work is involved.
Also, one thing and it really,I have to be honest, it really
pisses me off is people writeall the time that they're moving
and they can't take theirrabbit.
It's like well, why don't youmove somewhere else?
Unless it's a crisis, we dohelp domestic violence

(41:02):
situations.
We'll temporarily hold onto arabbit for somebody free until
they can get themselves settled,but find a place that accepts
pets.
They're your family.

Speaker 1 (41:11):
They're your family member.
We hear that every day withdogs and cats, and sometimes you
just you know, and there areapartment complexes that don't
allow, or landlords, if you'rerenting a house or whatever that
don't allow pets.
How hard did you look is alwaysmy.
I don't ask this because it'smoot.
At that point they haven't doneit and they were already moving
in.
I'm moving and I can't take itwith me.
Whatever, you just don't wantto.
You don't want to deal with thehassle.

Speaker 2 (41:34):
You're nice, you don't say anything I do.
My inner New Yorker comes outoccasionally because I feel like
people and I know it's judgy.
But let's all be honest aboutwhy you're not taking your
animal, Because I think peoplesometimes feel like well, I left
them with a rescue, so I'm notculpable anymore for anything.

Speaker 1 (41:57):
Right.

Speaker 2 (41:57):
You know, it's this rescue's responsibility to care
for my animal, who's now feelingabandoned.
Like Malcolm was a family pet.
I don't know what happened tohim, but he got dumped in a
shelter, and so if you work hardenough, you can find a place
that takes animals.
You just might not have it beexactly your first pick, but

(42:21):
what's more important to you, ifyou really love your animal as
a family member, then you know Iknow people who've gone to
great lengths to move overseas.
I moved cross country withanimals, including an iguana, in
the car, you know, and you cando it if you really want to.

Speaker 1 (42:42):
Yeah, yeah, and I think that's basically what
they're saying is that theydon't want to and they don't
want to, they don't want toadmit that, and I think they
don't have that level ofcommitment to the pet, whether
it's you know.

Speaker 2 (42:54):
They don't, and so we also have a clause in our
contract that if you don't wantyour rabbit for any reason, the
rabbit must come back here.
You may not have this rabbit onyour own.
Now I'm not saying we're alwayssuper happy about that, because
we expect people.
We really try to screen peopleand most of the time it's great.

(43:16):
But sometimes we getdisappointed.
But the rabbit must come backhere because we want to make
sure that the rabbit has a safehome for the rest of his or her
life and not passed aroundperson to person.
And then occasionally we getthat somebody's I know you'll

(43:38):
laugh at this somebody'sboyfriend doesn't like the
rabbit anymore and so the rabbitgets dumped and you know all I
can say is boy, you're seeing,you're seeing this partner at
his or her best, and if they'reasking you to get rid of your

(43:59):
pet, we're talking some controlissues here.
So you know you're not askingfor my romantic advice, but
there's a problem, a problemthere.
So that's a lot of the reasons,the expense.
We have a lot.
We specialize in trauma, abuse,neglect, also medical rescues.
People do end up not being ableto afford the care that they

(44:23):
need to do, especially for afancy breed rabbit like a dwarf
or a lop, where they'regenetically engineered and that
causes health problems.
It's like a pug that ends uphaving a lot of health problems.
And so you can be looking atthousands and thousands of
dollars.
Those are the main reasons.
You know that I think peoplegive up on their rabbits.

Speaker 1 (44:49):
Yeah, If somebody heard all of this and they're
still thinking I do want a bunny, but maybe I don't want to make
that lifetime commitmentbecause I want to be sure first.
Can they foster a bunny?
Is that a good way to get?
Okay, it's really reallyhelpful.

Speaker 2 (45:04):
I'll give you an example, and sorry about the
phone.
I had an Instacart driver.
She and I struck up aconversation because there was a
rabbit sign out there and sheended up coming over this
weekend with her partner andthey're going to probably end up
fostering a rabbit because thisis a first-time rabbit
experience for them.

(45:25):
And so there's certain rabbitsthat are good for fosters and
there's certain rabbits that aregoing to be a better fit for
first timers than other rabbits,animals out the door.

(45:47):
But really wants the experienceto be good for the human and
the rabbit is that we supply allthat.
We give people all the supplies, we have a little training
packet, we have people send usphotos of where the rabbit would
be living and we work withpeople to make sure it's the
right fit and then they have theright the first right to adopt

(46:09):
that rabbit.
And a lot of times some of ourharder to place rabbits end up
getting adopted because they arefosters that the people have
fallen in love with.

Speaker 1 (46:18):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (46:19):
So, for example, it's really unfortunate, but but the
ruby eyed white rabbits, thebig ruby eyed white rabbits, and
we do get a lot of them fromthe shelters.
We also work with legallyreleased not released, but for
lack of a better word, legallyreleased lab rabbits that we

(46:39):
will work with groups that canget them to us, and then these
rabbits have never been out of atiny cage.
It's really, I mean, that's awhole other thing.
But people discriminate againstthe ruby-eyed bunnies because
they're like, oh, it's red eyesand that's creepy, and they're
actually beautiful.
They're lavender and ruby andpink and blue, and so sometimes,

(47:04):
when people are being weirdedout by ruby eyes, we sort of
strongly encourage them tofoster a ruby-eyed bunny and to
get over that, especially ifthey have kids, because it's a
really important, it's animportant lesson to not be
shallow about the animal, thatyou pick and not based, that you

(47:26):
pick and not based.
You know your choice on looksand I would say that probably
75% of the time, these peoplewho really didn't like ruby-eyed
bunnies and have fostered them,they adopt the one they
fostered and they fall in lovewith these bunnies because

(47:46):
they're like the goldenretrievers of bunnies so
fostering is a really, reallygood way to learn if you if you
like living with rabbits or not.
And then another thing that Ithink is important is, if you
have kids who are driving thedecision, have your kids
volunteer at a rescue.
That will encourage them towork Like.

(48:08):
This is not a petting zoo,you're going to scrape.
You like baby bunnies.
Baby bunnies have a lot ofdiarrhea.
So here you go.
Here you go.
Here's a scraper, and let's seehow much you really like baby
bunnies, because I think it'simportant for people to know how
much work is involved and getout of the romance.

Speaker 1 (48:28):
Yeah, this episode that we did recently on the five
welfare needs of animals.
I interviewed Dr Emma Milne,who's a veterinarian and very
mucha proponent for animalwelfare, and she wrote a series
of books called the PetDetectives, and I have not I
have not checked them out yetbecause I don't have kids, but
they're basically geared towardskids but one of the things that

(48:51):
she recommends in these books,which I thought was a the
evening at minimum, every singleday rain, sleet, you know, snow

(49:13):
, hail, whatever for 30 days andif they do that, then we'll
have a conversation about youknow whether you get a dog, and
she said that she did the samething when her kids wanted
gerbils.
You know it's like obviouslyit's a little bit harder to
recreate the gerbil care, butyou know you do X amount of
chores per day and you do thesecertain activities and I think

(49:33):
if you can find a rescue thatyour kids can volunteer because
we run into that a lot in ourrescue with adults and kids is
that that's what they think.
They think it's going to bejust playing with kittens,
playing with puppies, and it'sreally.
I don't need you to do that.
It's great, you can do that,but what I really need you to do
is scoop the 15 litter boxes inthe cat room and, uh, you know,

(49:56):
clean up the cat puke andeverything else, and it's like
it's not quite as glamorous asuh, as just playing and cuddling
kittens.
So I think that's a that's agreat suggestion is volunteering
.

Speaker 2 (50:09):
And I also think that the parents need to come and
volunteer because you know, atleast out here in Marin, every
child here is a genius.
You know, according to theparents, Everybody out here is
just an extraordinary child,their child, their six-year-old
is smarter than every othersix-year-old everywhere, and so

(50:33):
you need to be here with yourchild also, because it's
actually too much responsibilityto leave on a child to monitor.
That is to say, your child isgoing to be traumatized if they
miss something that could havethat.

(50:55):
They're just too young yeah,they're just too young to be
able to pick up on things likethat, because rabbits will hide
their illnesses.
So by the time you see a rabbitillness, you're already buying
time for yourself to keep on.
You know you got to get inthere and start to move and so
if you have a, you know, if youhave a child, who's the only

(51:18):
caregiver?
Because your parents want youto learn, want them to learn the
lesson of responsibility.
It's not fair.

Speaker 1 (51:25):
Yeah, you definitely have to be that second set of
eyes, for sure.

Speaker 2 (51:28):
You have to be.

Speaker 1 (51:29):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (51:30):
You know, unlike a cat or a dog that can vomit, a
rabbit can't throw up, so theyeat something it's in them and
you may lose them.
Same thing with combing a rabbitlike Rupert, who is the bunny
in here.
Before I was petting him I'mlike he has knots on him that I
have to go get off of him and weshaved him down some.

(51:54):
He came to us because he's anangora and the human who had him
rescued him from someone else,but they were unable to care for
him and so we had to took ustwo days to shave him down.
The mats were so close to hisfur and long hair bunnies.
They're just a lot of work andthen if you don't groom them,
they will swallow their own furand they don't throw up the fur

(52:16):
ball it blocks their intestinesand it kills them.
So there's just much more workthan people think.

Speaker 1 (52:24):
And so if you're thinking about it and it's
something you think you want todo, make sure you get in touch
with a bunny rescue.
That well, and not only becauseof your extensive knowledge
about the proper care forbunnies, but, you know, rather
than going to a pet shop andjust getting a bunny that might
have come in from who knowswhere and nobody really knows

(52:46):
anything about it, you know, youknow about these bunnies and
you can I would assume you canhelp match the person to the
bunny based on their experienceor based on their energy level.
I know, I know we try to do thatwith our animals too, because
some, you know you could be agreat dog owner or a great cat
owner, but if you're like hyperand high energy, there's certain

(53:07):
animals that are not going todo well with that, and so you
know it's not it's, it'ssomething beyond just the basic
food, water, shelter, that typeof care, right, right, exactly.
If I've kind of listened tothis episode and thought, you
know, I maybe thought a bunnywas a good idea, but now I'm not
so sure.
And obviously I can investigatefostering.

(53:28):
So sure, and obviously I caninvestigate fostering, but I do
care about bunnies.
What else?

Speaker 2 (53:38):
what can people non-bunny owners do to help?

Speaker 1 (53:39):
the bunny welfare world.

Speaker 2 (53:40):
Well obviously they can donate so that, like ours
that are that are trying to savethese animals, have the
finances to do it.
That's really important.
They can speak up in their owncommunities and they can go to a
place that they need to knowthat the animals, the rabbits
that are on restaurant menus.

(54:00):
When you hear rabbit meat, youare not talking about a wild
rabbit, you are talking about afarm-raised domestic bunny.
And in the Bay Area here wehave a big rabbit meat farm
that's part of Marin Organicsand we won a big fight against

(54:22):
Whole Foods years ago to stop arabbit meat program and we lost
in my own county because theboard of supervisors is like
this with this rabbit meat farmand they're part of the organics
, now that's.
It's hard for the rabbit rescuepeople to be the only ones

(54:43):
saying, hey, these are companionanimals, these are mammals.
You know they're classified aspoultry to make it easy to
slaughter them.
So I know I'm taking a.
I know you asked for somethingeasy, but one of the main things
is trying to get people to getrabbits into the same category
of companion animal as cat ordog.
They are deserving and worthyof that, which means you see

(55:14):
rabbit meat on a restaurant menu.
You know, if I see it on thereI'm not going to get in a big
fight with the restaurant.
That doesn't help.
But I am going to say something.
Like you know, I noticed youhave rabbit on the menu.
I live with a companion rabbit.
I don't say I'm a rabbit rescuegroup because then immediately
everybody discounts what youhave to say.
But I'll say I live with arabbit as a companion animal and
this is upsetting to me, so I'mgoing to, I choose not to eat

(55:39):
here, and I wish you wouldn't dothat.
And if enough people do thosesorts of things, it makes a
difference because people needto hear from their customers.
Same thing when you go into astore, a pet store, pet supply
store, and you see all kinds ofdog treats, and there's a
difference between an animalthat might genuinely have an

(56:01):
allergy and that's a very smallnumber of animals and then
having rabbit meat treatseverywhere in the store.
That's horrible.
That's horrible.
And it's not that rabbit offerssome special nutrition, it's
just a new marketing thing, andso that's another way to help,

(56:25):
volunteering.
Of course, I also reallyrecommend that people support
their municipal shelters, thecounty shelters.
The quote unquote kill shelters.
I hate that terminology and Ididn't know about it until I had
found my rabbit, you know, backin 1999.
And I wanted to get her acompanion and I went to the San

(56:45):
Francisco SPCA because I didn'twant to go to animal control
because they killed animals.
Cisco SPCA because I didn't wantto go to animal control because
they killed animals.
Right, SPCA was like we don'thelp rabbits, you have to go
over here.
And you know, here's the fancySPCA building with all kinds of
resources and they choose to nothelp rabbits.
And so I went over to animalcare and control and ended up

(57:09):
volunteering with them andfostering through them, and when
we started working with them in1999 or 2000, they had about a
95% euthanasia rate for rabbits.
Nobody was helping and by 2003,we've worked with them and I
give them credit for this theyhave not euthanized a rabbit

(57:30):
there because of behavior orspace, because our group will
take them all Now that's a hugeresponsibility on us.
We have to pay for everything,and it's a lot of animals, but
the only time an animal a rabbithas gotten euthanized there is
when they are genuinely dying orsuffering, and so supporting

(57:53):
the local shelters.
People who have dogs and catsunderstand that the food choices
that you're making for youranimals impact other animals.
Do you really need to buyrabbit meat treats?
Do you really need to?
I mean, if you want to, that'syour choice, but you are

(58:16):
contributing to animal cruelty.
So you know there's ways tohelp without adopting a rabbit,
and I'm sure that some dog andcat people might not like
hearing me you know hearing mesay that but it would be great
to have their help with it.

Speaker 1 (58:35):
Yeah, but I think what you're presenting is a
completely logical point is thatif your animal doesn't need
that because you know for, likeI said, if it's not their
primary food and they don't havean allergy, then they don't
need to be eating that, and soby buying it, you're
perpetuating the problem, and Ithink we covered a lot of ground
and hopefully given people alot of food for thought.

Speaker 2 (58:57):
So I appreciate this a lot.

Speaker 1 (59:00):
No, yeah, I appreciate you being here and
you know, for those who arelistening, please go back and
re-listen to this episode andshare with people that you know.
You know anybody that might beconsidering getting a bunny as a
pet, because I know I'velearned a lot today and there's
just a lot more to it than youmight think, and so doing your

(59:20):
homework to make sure it's aright fit for you is not only
important for you, but it'sreally important for the bunnies
as well, and you know that theyhave the best possible life.
So, yeah, marci, thank you somuch for being here with us
today.

Speaker 2 (59:33):
Thank you.

Speaker 1 (59:34):
And we'll definitely put a link to your website
because I think there's probablya lot of people that will want
to check out your website.
Donate I know I'm in Houston soobviously I can't get involved
and volunteer out there, but Ican certainly spread the word
with my friends in California toseek you out whether they're
looking to volunteer or lookingto add a bunny to their family.
So we'll definitely put thatlink up there in our show notes.

(59:56):
Thanks for listening to MuddyPaws and Hairballs.
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(01:00:17):
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Don't forget to tune in nextweek and every week for a brand
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And if you don't do anythingelse this week, give your pets a
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