April 27, 2025 • 52 mins
What if the no-kill movement isn’t saving animals but failing them?
It promised to end unnecessary euthanasia and revolutionize sheltering. But behind the glowing stats and feel-good slogans lies a much messier reality, one most people don’t want to talk about.
In this episode, I sit down with animal welfare expert Daniel Ettinger to expose the unintended consequences of chasing a 90 percent live release rate. From shelters closing their doors to avoid euthanasia to animals being warehoused for years, the system is cracking and those of us on the ground are feeling the weight.
As a longtime rescuer, I’ve seen firsthand how “no-kill” often means no space, no support, and no plan. Daniel introduces a better framework: SMART (Saving More Animals Responsibly Together), a humane, community-based approach rooted in transparency, responsible care, and real solutions.
🎧 By the time you finish listening, you’ll discover:
- Why the 90 percent benchmark is doing more harm than good
- How “saving” animals can sometimes mean compromising their quality of life
- What the SMART approach offers that no-kill doesn't, and how you can help
If you’ve ever felt uneasy about what’s happening behind the scenes in animal rescue, this episode will make you feel seen and give you hope for a more honest path forward.
Love the show? Please share it with another pet parent who wants less chaos and more clarity. Please leave a 5-star review to help others find real-life, judgment-free advice.
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Contact: Amy@muddypawsandhairballs.com
©Ⓟ 2025 by Amy Castro.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Amy Castro (00:01):
You've seen the memes, you've heard the slogans,
but what if I told you theno-kill movement isn't working
like we thought it would and infact, it's quietly hurting the
animals we claim to protect?
In this episode, we're pullingback the curtain on what's
really happening in shelters andrescues and why it's time for a
better way forward.
Stay tuned, way forward, staytuned.
(00:31):
Hey there, and welcome to MuddyPaws and Hairballs, the podcast
that skips the sugarcoating anddives straight into the messy,
meaningful and sometimesmaddening world of pet parenting
and rescue.
I'm your host, amy Castro, andtoday we're going there.
The no-kill movement startedwith good intentions Save more
lives, stop unnecessaryeuthanasia and push for change.
And that sounded great Untilshelters started closing their
(00:53):
doors to animals, not becausethey didn't care, but because
they were trying to meet thepublic's demand for a 90%
no-kill live release rate.
That number may look great onpaper, but what about the
fallout?
It's leaving finders stuck,animals dumped and some shelters
warehousing animals for yearswith no real plan for their
(01:14):
future.
My guest today is DanielEttinger, an animal welfare
professional, former animalcontrol officer and host of the
Keep it Humane podcast.
Together, we're digging intowhat's broken in the no-kill
model, why saving them all isn'talways the most humane choice
or the safest for the public andhow we can start shifting
(01:34):
towards a more honest, balancedand truly humane approach to
animal welfare.
So if you're ready to rethinkwhat rescue should look like
without the PR spin, then thisepisode is for you.
Daniel, welcome to the show.
Daniel Ettinger (01:48):
Thanks for having me.
Amy Castro (01:50):
I appreciate you coming on here.
Like I was saying before we gotstarted, this is a topic that
I've wanted to address and I'vekind of dropped some little
hints along the way, but I feellike, you know, getting it out
there in more detail would bebeneficial, and I'm seeing
people more and more in rescueand, you know, just seeing that
smart infographic.
That basically that's how Ifound you is because I saw that
infographic and I'm like, oh mygosh, that's exactly what we
(02:13):
need.
People are getting a little bitmore brave about putting it out
there and basically talkingabout no kill and where it's
working, where it's not, andmaybe there might be a better
option.
So just to kind of kick thingsoff, because you're the expert,
I think everybody's heard ofno-kill, but what does that mean
?
I mean, what is it in anutshell?
Daniel Ettinger (02:32):
I think that's part of the problem.
To be honest, amy, I really do,and I've had this discussion
with many people, not evenpeople that are in the industry,
not shelter workers, not rescueworkers.
(02:53):
One of the trips that I've beenon recently took me to good old
San Antonio, texas, I thinkthat's how you're supposed to
say it, san.
Antonio, Texas I think that'show you're supposed to say it
San Antonio.
And while I was there, I wasteaching a group of social
workers for the military and thefirst question that I was asked
(03:16):
in that training was are thereany shelters that are not
no-kill left in the UnitedStates?
Wow, shelters that are notno-kill left in the United
States Wow.
That's.
The problem is, we don't knowwhat it means.
In her mind, she thinks thatevery animal gets to either live
(03:36):
out the rest of its life in ashelter or sanctuary and that we
adopt out pretty much any andevery animal we can.
And I wish that was the case,amy.
I really do.
It's not Right.
So the definition is I justdon't know.
Amy Castro (03:50):
Yeah, and we hear that a lot around here when I
was volunteering at AnimalControl you know it was are you
no kill?
And it's like, okay, I kind ofthink of it as a show game.
It's like it depends on whatyou consider kill, no kill.
You know, is euthanasia part ofthe equation?
I mean, it just becomes thisvery complex thing.
But it's not as black and whiteas everybody lives, or they
(04:14):
don't.
Daniel Ettinger (04:16):
There is a need for euthanasia, and if anybody
says there's not, they aredelusional, I'll just throw it
out there.
And if anybody says there's not, they are delusional, I'll just
throw it out there.
I'm just going to be bluntabout that.
There is a need, there's abehavioral need and there's a
medical need.
Now, was there a time, is therestill a time, where euthanasia
(04:37):
happens for time and space?
It hasn't happened in my worldin the last 16 years that I've
been in this profession, but itdoesn't mean it doesn't happen.
It hasn't happened in my world,and so I think the intention
behind it was good.
Amy, I think that you know, butit depends on who you ask and
(04:58):
what you ask.
Organizations and I'm nottalking just one, I'm talking
big and small that may have usedthat terminology to help fund
their mission or their goals,because it's just a genius
marketing term.
Amy Castro (05:14):
Yeah.
So you know, I think theintention behind it is good.
I think the intent to say weshouldn't be euthanizing for
space, we shouldn't beeuthanizing if it's avoidable,
healthy, adoptable animal, and Ibelieve that.
But I think the other thingthat people need to consider is
(05:37):
that there are a lot of factorsthat feed into the whole animal
sheltering, animal rescue,animal welfare world that need
to be in place just so in orderto create that reality.
Like I had a lady the other daythat posted when I had said
something no kills not working.
Her comment was it's working inmy neighborhood.
(05:58):
I said what do you mean?
Well, you know, we've reallyhelped a lot of feral cats by
doing trapped neuter return andit's like okay, so trapped
neuter return is working in yourneighborhood, great, so it's
like you know, and she's right.
I mean that's a piece of thepuzzle.
Like ideally you'd have allthese pieces in play and then
(06:19):
you wouldn't be in as dire asituation for euthanizing
healthy, adoptable animals.
But the reality is especiallyhere in Texas I don't know what
it's like in California is thatthose other pieces aren't in
play.
Trap neuter return is in many,even though the state has made
it legal.
There are municipalities thatsay you can't release an animal
(06:40):
because that's putting an animalat large and that's illegal.
There are communities thatdon't want that in their
community because they don'twant cats, you know, climbing on
their cars.
And so if that one piecedoesn't work, what are the other
pieces that aren't working?
You know, what are you seeing?
That are the pieces that aremissing to make that work.
Daniel Ettinger (06:57):
I think, first and foremost, the terminology
creates this divide in ourcommunity.
And in that creates this dividein our community and that's
taking away from other avenueswhere we can truly create a kind
of a harmonious, working, justanimal welfare world where we're
all trying to chip in to helppeople, help animals.
(07:18):
We say that on our podcast allthe time help people, help
animals.
And people ask well, what doesthat mean?
And it's we don't do enough tofocus on what the community
actually needs.
We try to meet this arbitrarynumber and that's that 90% live
release rate.
That is a very arbitrary numberand data will support that.
(07:43):
I think the community needsaccess to care.
So low-cost bayoneter, low-costvaccinations, low-cost services
.
So if I have a dog that needs ahip replacement, or I'm not
just giving it to the shelter,or a dog with pyometra, I'm not
just giving it to the shelter.
Or a puppy with parvo, right,I'm not euthanizing it or giving
it to the shelter because Ican't care for it.
(08:03):
So we need to find thosemechanisms.
And then that second piece, thatsecond tier to that, is we need
to find appropriate rules forhousing.
So if you rent, if you're arenter, you may know how
difficult it is to have pets asa renter and that I don't know
what percentage that wouldchange Like if you polled people
that currently can't have a petbecause of their apartment.
(08:25):
How much would that go up?
And what I mean by that is, ifI want a pet, I'm going to have
a pet Like, regardless.
I'm going to either make it anemotional support animal or I'm
just going to live with it in myapartment.
And they better not say nothingbecause if they do, I'll just
keep my pet and they'll have toevict me, right.
So there's that.
I don't know if that's going togive us like a 10% increase in
(08:46):
adoptions from the shelter or a50% increase, and I don't know
if there's a mechanism to trulytrack that, but we have to find
ways to soften that so we canhave just around, all around for
all animals, all pets, justbetter resources in general.
Amy Castro (09:26):
All animals, all pets.
I have a dog that I need togive up, or I found a dog I need
to do this, or whatever itmight be.
It's like why?
What is the situation?
First, and oftentimes it doescome down to lack of resources
for medical treatment, which weprovide in many instances, or
the housing situation.
That's a whole nother.
I mean, we could do a wholeepisode on that in and of itself
(09:47):
.
But the challenge is and yousee, people you know you made
the comment about, you know,having the alternative is
turning it into a shelter Aroundhere, the way that the shelter
so this is the ripple effectthat I was trying to explain,
apparently not very eloquentlyon Facebook the other day is
that you know, all of theseshelters in our area, the
(10:07):
municipal ones and thenon-municipal ones, even if they
don't want to call themselvesno-kill because they don't want
to be held to that standard,they're all trying to live to
that standard.
You know they're very proud ofputting out their live release
rates and I think those numbers,like you mentioned, I mean,
what is a live release rate?
What is 90%?
What's included in that?
What's not included in that isa whole shell game in my book.
(10:29):
But what they do is theybasically close doors.
So, whereas a municipal shelter, who I would think their role
is to keeping the community safeand you know safety would
include not allowing dogsrunning down the highway because
it can cause a wreck, ifnothing else, sure that they are
flat out saying no, we can'tcome get it because we're full.
(10:51):
But they've got that 90% liverelease rate.
Daniel Ettinger (10:56):
And why are we judging the success of any
individual, or shelter or rescue, on their live release rate?
It should be much more thanthat.
Amy Castro (11:06):
Yeah, but that's what people have stuck in their
head.
I mean people will literallycall us as a rescue and say, are
you no kill?
Or they'll say well, I don'twant to adopt from a blah blah
because I'll refer them Like youshould go to this shelter, oh,
I don't want to adopt from thembecause they're not no kill.
Daniel Ettinger (11:21):
But when you want to help them more kill.
Amy Castro (11:23):
That's exactly who you should be adopting from is
the highest kill shelter you canfind.
The mindset is just people arejust delusional.
They don't have a clue what'sreally going on.
Daniel Ettinger (11:36):
What blows my mind right is you can get a
plaque that says I don't evenknow what the plaque says it
comes from and it says, like in2024, you are a no-kill shelter
or whatever.
I think that's what it is.
That's all they're looking at.
They're not looking at.
How many community events didyou do?
(11:57):
Did you do spay and neuterservices?
Did you offer low-costvaccinations throughout the year
?
Are you giving away microchipsfor free?
Are you working in schoolsdoing humane education so we can
tell the youth what's important, Like?
Are all we looking at to getthat plaque is a number?
Do you just have to hit 90%?
Amy Castro (12:14):
Yeah, wow, yeah, yeah.
And that's the sad thing andyou know, even the owner
surrenders I mean, that was thefirst to go around here is that
we can keep our numbers down bynot taking owner surrenders, and
so I always find it funny.
But people say, well, I'll beforced to take it to the shelter
.
And I want to laugh and say,yeah, good luck with that,
because there's not a shelter inthe area that's going to take
(12:37):
it.
Or people will be again veryproud that such and such an
organization is no kill.
And it's like, well, it's easyto be no kill if you put all
kinds of parameters on what youtake through your doors.
Like I only take, you know,pink poodles that are between
the ages of two and four years.
You know what I mean.
It's like, yeah, then it's easybecause those are the highly
(13:00):
desirable ones.
It's the other ones that don'thave any choice about what they
take in that end up with thoseanimals that sit and sit and sit
.
So there's just so much thatfeeds into that that the
public's not aware of, and theyjust kind of go along and drink
the Kool-Aid 100%, that's theterm we hear a lot.
Daniel Ettinger (13:17):
They're drinking the Kool-Aid.
Amy Castro (13:19):
Yeah.
So what are you seeing as faras the impact?
I know for me what we're seeinghere and just in my little
small world.
We're seeing finders, just asan example, basically being
stuck with animals and, like Ifound a husky on the side.
No, this is a good one.
A guy said my son saw a huskyrunning in the street and he
(13:41):
picked it up and he brought ithome and I can't find anybody to
take it.
Can you take it?
It's like no, I can't take it.
Well, what am I supposed to dowith it?
And what I really want to sayis I guess you just better let
it go, because if you can't keepit and you can't care for it
and you can't find anybody totake it, what are you supposed
to do?
And then people get mad.
You never should have picked itup in the first place.
(14:02):
I mean, I don't know what totell people, but people are
getting stuck and they don'trealize the ripple effect of the
shelter is full.
The shelters, you know, they'retrying to maintain that number.
They're full.
Then they basically say well,we're full, call the rescues.
Now I'm telling you I'm fullbecause I'm taking all the
overflow that they didn't take.
And then people are being stuckin it.
(14:24):
You know, it just creates thisripple effect of more animals
just being left on the street orpeople finding animals and
being stuck with animals thatthey can't care for, and that's
just one impact.
What else?
What else is the kind of thedownside of this attempt at
playing this shell game?
Daniel Ettinger (14:43):
I take my time to answer these questions
because I think I'll be honest,amy, I don't know if there is
truly Like it's.
It's all hypotheticals in someaspects because the data is not
out there as far as like what'sreally happening.
There's data out there thatwill support whatever goal or
(15:04):
mission you're trying toaccomplish, but what I can say
from an anecdotal perspectivewould be that it's creating an
environment where, like you said, people don't want to go to a
shelter that's open in missionbecause they feel like they
don't adhere to the no-killpolicies, and then what happens
(15:35):
is those animals are less likelyto get adopted because people
are angry or upset with thatshelter.
You have that aspect and, again, I don't know how accurate that
is.
That's just an anecdotalresponse to what I've heard or
seen.
You have people that are turnedaway from releasing animals or,
excuse me like whether it'sowner surrender or strays, that
you know.
There's some stories if youjust Google what happens, and
there's some really negativethings that happen because of
(15:58):
that, where animals are treatedreally, really, really poorly,
which may include death becausethat person is frustrated and
takes it out on the animal.
Obviously we don't condoneanything like that, because they
feel helpless, they feel likewe've tried and then you're
turning us away.
So the next best thing to do isX, which is not the next best
(16:19):
thing to do, but it's anemotional response to an
emotional situation and it's notrational.
And I think, having thosebarriers in place, it's almost
like we have to be tribal inthis situation, and not that we
intend to be, but that's what itis.
It's like you either subscribeto the one tribe which is no
(16:41):
kill, or you're against it, andI don't think that's the way
that it should be.
And again, going back to yourinitial question, I don't know
if that was the way that it wasintended.
I think egos get involved and Ithink people run with certain
things because their name'sbehind that and they want to see
.
You know, see it just continueto grow.
Amy Castro (17:00):
There's a lot of other challenges that I have
with the impact of no kill fromorganizations and we've done it
too.
We've had the dog or the catthat's been in our program for X
amount of time and we're soproud of the fact that after 275
days, you know, I think thedifference for me is that our
275 days, the animals living ina home, not living in a cage
(17:21):
somewhere, for you know, fiveyears of its life or whatever
the case may be, and whetherthat's the best thing and what
that, but I will say that thewhole.
I mean I've got a pit bull inmy.
She's not in my living roomright now because I'm showing my
house, so all of my pets areout in my dog kennel building
that I built.
But you know, I've had her inour program for two years
(17:43):
because she's blind and she hasother issues that make her not
like the perfectly adoptable petfor just anybody.
And it's like I often questionmyself and say is that the right
thing or should?
Because she's basically tied upa spot in my rescue for the
last two years and how manyanimals who didn't have issues
(18:05):
could I have taken in and turnedover and gotten adopted out in
them.
So there's, you know, there's alot of other factors that I
think we could dive into as faras challenges, because we're
trying to be no kill and do theright thing kill and do the
(18:25):
right thing, but you know whatelse happens to.
Daniel Ettinger (18:27):
I didn't mean no, no, one of the things we
didn't get into is you getpeople that call themselves
rescues, right, and they do thatbecause they there's a lot of
factors, but they do that forwhatever purpose it is, and then
they go to these municipalshelters or shelters that don't
use the label no kill andthey'll take animals and then
they'll warehouse them and thenthey become a problem in the
community because now we havethis excessive hoarding
(18:49):
situation.
Uh, we covered a really insanecase out of colorado about, uh,
louanne strickland, who in somesenses was the queen of no kill
um, in colorado, was a big, bigsupporter of that by the time of
her death, when she was inupper eighties or nineties.
(19:10):
She lived a long time.
She was in possession of over400 dogs and just deplorable
living conditions, and so, like,where's that balance right?
Like where's we don't want dogsliving in horrid situations,
but then, for whatever reason,for whatever reason, we play
(19:32):
this emotional game of well, Idon't want to have to put this
animal down because of our ownpersonal belief in death.
Amy Castro (19:39):
And.
Daniel Ettinger (19:40):
I don't know if we want to take the podcast
there, but I think that has astrong piece to it as well.
Amy Castro (19:45):
Oh, yeah, 100%.
I think there are things thatare worse than death and being
in a hoarding situation for yourentire life or a huge chunk of
your life.
I think we spend too much timeapplying our human standards of
life and death and our fear ofdeath and applying that to an
animal who has no fear of deathand is just going to be here and
(20:09):
not here, and so maybe that'sbetter in some instances.
But yeah, I mean that's.
Another factor is thewarehousing and the hoarding of
animals, and that's not thepoint of a rescue.
To me, a rescue is supposed tobe a pipeline.
Now, if you're a sanctuary fora certain type of animal, that's
fine, but even then there's alimit to how much space that you
have, and then you draw thelimit and then you know when the
(20:29):
animal dies of natural causesor whatever, then maybe you have
a spot for something else, butyou don't just keep stacking
them to the ceilings, and Ithink that's what's happened, so
that people and I think it'snot even just the fear of death
I think it's a huge piece of ego.
One of the examples that I can'tremember if I mentioned this
because I did a very shortpodcast episode last week about
(20:52):
why I'm personally getting outof the hands on of rescue and I
think I did did share this story, but I'll just share it with
you.
It's like the person that findsan animal that can't use its
back legs and can't urinate onits own, so it needs its bladder
expressed multiple times a dayand they're all in.
They're going to do that fouror five times a day for the rest
of that animal's life and it'slike, no, not on my watch,
(21:13):
You're not, because that's not alife for that animal.
You may be feeling like a heroand I think there's a certain
amount of you know, hero complex, savior complex and even martyr
complex.
Like, look at what I'vesacrificed for this poor animal.
You know like I could put itout on social media and say how
awesome I am because I expressedthis animal's bladder five
(21:34):
times a day for the last fiveyears and it's like, yeah,
that's just like I have a realbig problem with that with that.
So talk to us about SMART,because it's just a better way
of looking at this whole messthat we've created in a much
more balanced and appropriateway, for the best of the animals
, I think.
Daniel Ettinger (21:54):
I knew that there needed to be something to
I hate to say it counter no-kill.
That was the whole idea, and sowhat I wanted was hey, are you
a no-kill shelter?
No, we're actually a smartshelter, and here's why I worked
with Dr G, Dr Michelle Gonzalez, who has her own podcast called
(22:15):
the Animal Welfare Junction.
She's awesome.
She's been a super bigsupporter of smart, and so she
and I were, you know, justtexting back and forth and it
just landed saving more animalsresponsibly together, and it's
just perfect, it fits.
That's.
That's what we're trying.
All of us are trying to dowithout ego, like we're just
(22:36):
trying to get in there and seehow we can help people, help
animals, like that is our goal,that should be our goal and
that's that was the birth, thatwas like how it really started,
and so it's really to kind ofcome along and embrace that
there is a need for somethingdifferent.
The biggest thing that I see,with no kill this is just a
(22:57):
personal opinion Like nothing, Isay is other than my own
personal opinion is that we allsearch for an identity, whether
that's individually orcollectively or in a
professional setting, whetherit's the shelter we work for,
whether it's our own lives, etc.
And no kill was a great way tocreate an identity.
I'm a no kill shelter I'm partof this big group, we are no
(23:19):
kill was a great way to createan identity.
I'm a no kill shelter.
I'm part of this big group, weare no kill.
And I think that really helpedsupport that movement.
And as I sit here and realizethat the only other true
identity out there was sociallyconscious sheltering, try saying
that three times fast in asentence.
Amy Castro (23:34):
Yeah, really.
Daniel Ettinger (23:36):
It was a great concept and I know some of the
people that were involved in thebackground of that and I think
that it was rightfully.
It was great timing, just bad,poor name management.
Truthfully, and I mean thatwith all due respect, as we now
have this ability to like, focusand move forward, smart creates
(23:59):
an identity for all of us as wework together.
And the fun fact, the littleside note the thing that I like
the best about smart and itwasn't intentional when it was
created was our industry and howwe used to operate.
We were dealing with dumbanimals, and when I say that
that was the terminology used inthe 1800s to describe dogs and
(24:23):
cats, they were dumb, right,even horses dumb.
The Denver Dumb Friends Leaguehas been a very popular shelter
for many, many, many, actually acentury, and they finally
changed the name to HumaneColorado, which is great Good
for them.
But to to bring it full circle,we've taken it from dumb to now
(24:46):
smart and the goal is to reallyprovide that identity, provide
an opportunity for us to shareresources, network together as a
group, but then come up withother ways that we can work in
our community to help people,help animals.
Yeah.
Amy Castro (25:04):
So are there some basic tenets of the solution
that SMART is proposing.
Daniel Ettinger (25:10):
First and foremost, it's just creating
that environment of a communityright.
It's also creating anopportunity to work with your
public health officials and OneHealth model.
I don't know if you can hear mydog, but he's saying hello in
the background.
Amy Castro (25:27):
It's a pet podcast.
It's okay, that's how we do it.
Daniel Ettinger (25:30):
He sees a skateboard, I'm sure, and in
that aspect it's really justtrying to use practical
applications on how we can helpas a community.
So, again, I can't stressenough the access to care piece.
I can't stress enough that 90%doesn't mean anything.
It's a made-up number withtruly arbitrary and controlled
(25:56):
data to make it what it is.
Arbitrary and controlled datato make it what it is.
It's that transparency piece tomake sure that we're
communicating with everyone, notjust our staff but the
community.
And then responsible treatment.
So what does responsibletreatment look like?
It's that aspect of trulymaking sure no animal is
(26:16):
suffering due to behavioralissues or medical issues, and so
it may sound a lot like whatno-kill is, but it removes some
barriers that are in place.
Amy Castro (26:27):
And you know it's interesting because I do see
bits of like.
There are several organizationsin our area who are very, very
focused on that and they'regetting utilized Like a
spay-neuter clinic, and theyneutered 100 dogs this weekend.
They're fully focused on thatpiece of it, because that's a
piece of the puzzle.
And then the other aspect Ithink too, is the behavioral
element.
I think part of the issue hasbeen, and one of the reasons why
(26:50):
at least around here, some ofthe no-kill has gotten a little
bit of a tarnished reputationfrom a standpoint of a belief,
is the animals that probablyshould not be adopted out to the
public.
That are being adopted out tothe public and we saved it but
to do what you know, to maim achild or to kill somebody or be
(27:11):
chained in a backyard becauseit's not a safe animal to be
around, and that's a wholenother piece of it too, I think.
Daniel Ettinger (27:17):
It is safe animal to be around, and that's
a whole nother piece of it too.
I think it is.
And if you go back to anepisode we did with Paulette
Dean, who runs the DanvilleAnimal Shelter in Virginia, she
was attacked due to her liverelease rate and again you
mentioned, every community isdifferent.
(27:38):
It was a great episode.
This is her experience, notmine.
But she talks about the threatsthat were made.
Not only were people makingthreats, social media-wise
people were in person, followingstaff members home and having
conversations how dare you workthere?
To the point where people quitworking at that shelter because
(28:00):
they were in fear.
Our goal is not to take anapproach where we're going to
bully people.
Our goal is going to take theapproach of how can we create
that sense of community?
So if I can't help you, maybeAmy can help you, and if Amy
can't help you, maybe DrG canhelp you.
And if Dr G can't help you,so-and-so may be willing to help
you.
And if Amy can't help you,maybe Dr G can help you.
And if Dr G can't help you,so-and-so may be willing to help
(28:20):
you.
Versus you're going to do whatI say because we are the
conglomerate in this industryand if you don't do it, here's
what's going to happen.
And that's exactly what theydid and thankfully she stood her
ground and has continued tomove forward with her shelter
and what she knows how to do.
We shouldn't have that in ourindustry.
(28:42):
There was a case out of Denverwhere a dog bit a child in the
face.
I want to say the dog was aspaniel of some sort, maybe like
a Springer or English, somesort of dog like that.
It wasn't the first bite onrecord and it was their own
child and they didn't want thedog in the house with the kid
(29:04):
anymore.
Totally get that.
Yeah, when they surrendered thedog to the shelter, they
surrendered it specifically foreuthanasia.
Somehow a rescue got involvedand said no, no, no, no, no, no.
That dog shouldn't be put tosleep.
You should request that dogback.
And Denver stood their groundfor a while saying it was
(29:25):
surrendered for euthanasia.
We have an obligation forpublic safety.
We're not going to release thisdog.
They literally picketed infront of the shelter.
I don't know for how long, butthere was a group picketing in
front of the shelter.
I don't know for how long, butthere was a group picketing in
front of the shelter, justthrowing mud on them for wanting
to euthanize a dog that bit akid in the face, and it wasn't
(29:45):
the first bite that it's had.
What are we talking about,people?
There's probably a dog in thatshelter at that time that has
been there for over 150, 200days and you're worried about a
dog that bit a kid in the face.
But this dog that may look uglyand isn't the most adoptable
candidate, because the way itlooks, just because the way it
looks, not its behavior, justbecause the way it looks why
(30:06):
aren't you advocating for thatdog?
But you're going to advocatefor a dog that bit a child in
the face.
Point to that story was therescue finally was able to get
the dog out after all thisonslaught, and one of the quotes
from that rescue and you beingin that world, I'd love your
take on this was we really beatthem down.
Amy Castro (30:27):
Yeah, I believe it what are we doing?
What are we doing?
I know, yeah, I think well,part of the issue is that and
the challenge that I see withwith rescues, is that element of
cooperation is just not there.
Everybody's got their littlephilosophy.
(30:48):
Half the time it's not evenadequately fleshed out or well
thought out, and then they drawpeople like themselves that
drink the Kool-Aid and then theystart getting the pitchforks
and the flaming torches and offthey go.
They're so focused on that onething, that one save that one
animal, that they're not seeingthe bigger picture of things.
And I mean it doesn't surpriseme at all, to be perfectly
(31:10):
honest.
I mean everybody's quick tocriticize and everybody's quick
to try to be a hero, but notnecessarily to acknowledge that
tough decisions do need to bemade and that it's just a very,
very narrow minded way oflooking at the big picture.
Daniel Ettinger (31:26):
To actually say like we really beat them down
to give in to what we wanted.
Basically tells me everything Ineed to know about you in your
organization, like you're notreally here for the animals,
you're here for you.
Amy Castro (31:37):
Well, that's why it goes back to that ego and savior
thing, and it's like saving forwhat?
Like you said, there's probablymore than one other dog.
There's probably seven otherdogs sitting in that shelter
that were more deserving oftheir time and effort to rescue
and find a home for than the onethat bit a kid and bit other
people.
But that's the one that theyjump on that bandwagon for 100%.
(32:00):
So what do you say to peoplewho give pushback on taking this
smart approach?
Or are you getting pushback atall?
Daniel Ettinger (32:09):
It's been somewhat overwhelming and
unexpected the amount of inquiryand just interest and wanting
to be heard.
Again.
It comes back to providing thatsafe space and identity for us
as a group to really say likeyeah, we're part of this smart
shelter group, like let's helppeople, help animals, come on,
(32:30):
um, I got a message from someonein the deep South.
Can I say that I've alwayswanted to say the deep South
South?
Can I say that I've alwayswanted to say the deep South?
Sure, and, and at first Ithought they were like
supporting, like the.
The email was like I'm confused, like are they supporting this?
They were like giving me thebackground on Nathan Winograd
and how he came up with the 90%live release rate.
(32:52):
And I'm like, here we go and wehad a conversation yesterday
and we talked for probably anhour and just I hope she's
listening.
If not, maybe I'll send it toher because it was just a
wonderful conversation about twopeople with different views.
She's not going to give up theno kill conversation and
terminology.
That is her identity.
(33:13):
But she also is supportive ofwhat smart is and so I think it
felt good to find somebody forher.
I think it felt good forsomeone like to find someone
like me or smart, where we'reproviding that place for them to
like.
Focus on what's the trueproblem?
The true problem is access tocare.
Like we're not spaying andneutering our pets, we're not
(33:33):
providing a way for them to getthe help that they need.
What do we think is going tohappen?
We're going to have high intake, high populations in our
shelters and we're not going tobe able to we're never going to
be able to adopt our way out ofit, that is just a facetious.
That's not the right word I'mlooking for.
What's the word?
Amy Castro (33:50):
A delusional.
Delusion yeah.
Daniel Ettinger (33:53):
Yeah, we're not going to adopt our way out of
it.
We're going to work our way outof it by providing those
resources in our communities.
And then, one day, long beyondprobably, either of our
existence or consciousness onthis planet, we'll be
importing—we shouldn't do it now, but we already do—importing
animals from other countries,because we won't have any here
to adopt.
Amy Castro (34:16):
Yeah, and I've had that conversation with people
before too, and I think this issomething that's important for
you know, because this podcastis specifically targeted to pet
parents.
If I'm just an average personout in the community, I am
thinking about getting a pet, orI just like animals and I care
about animals, what should I bedoing about it?
(34:38):
I even put a post on Facebookthe other day because it
aggravates me when I get taggedby some rando along with 5,000
other rescues to save this.
You know, red alert, sos, dogat bark or whatever the case may
be, and it's like somebody.
And then all the commentssomebody go save him, somebody
do this, it's terrible thatthey're going to do that.
(34:58):
And it's like what are youdoing?
Daniel Ettinger (35:01):
I would say this, unless you have a specific
need maybe you're a farmer andyou need that border collie with
that bloodline that knows howto.
Can I swear on your podcast?
I won't do it, yeah, and I'mprobably not going to get it at
the shelter because I don't knowwhat that dog is.
Amy Castro (35:17):
You might, you might get lucky.
Daniel Ettinger (35:18):
You might, you might.
But unless it's a specific job,it's a seeing.
I mean again, some of thesedogs you can get at shelters
like a true ADA dog, a CNI dog,you can take them from shelters
and work with them, like there'snot saying that you can't
(35:40):
Police dogs.
That one's a little more tricky, right.
So, unless we're talking aboutthat big three right there that
I mentioned, don't go buy a petfrom a pet store.
What is wrong with you?
People Like, seriously, ifyou're listening and you like
dogs and cats, don't buysomething.
What are you doing?
If you're going to spend fivegrand on a dog, donate that
$4,750 to the shelter that yougo and adopt a $250 dog from and
(36:00):
you get the same love, nomatter what.
Amy Castro (36:03):
Yep.
Daniel Ettinger (36:06):
I'm speaking your love language, Amy, aren't
I?
Amy Castro (36:08):
Yeah, yeah, yeah and yeah, I've never been against.
You know, breeding.
I think there are animals thatneed to be bred for certain
purposes, but yeah, your averageperson does not need to go out
and get a purebred dog just tohave it or just to have it, and
then don't get even started onthe doodles and things like that
.
Daniel Ettinger (36:27):
A purebred, $7,000 golden doodle, whatever
man, when I take my dog to thedog beach I swear there's like
4% of dogs that come from theshelter.
It's all purebreds.
I'm like okay, whatever.
Amy Castro (36:40):
So that's one piece of it.
What else can we be doing onthe community level?
Daniel Ettinger (36:47):
Know that no kill doesn't exist.
That is a false terminology.
If I could sue whoever createdthat for false advertisement, I
would, because ultimately itdoes not exist.
That terminology is a deceitfuland misleading term, so don't
get sucked into that.
I would more likely worry aboutwhat are the conditions like
(37:12):
inside the shelter.
Do they do enrichment for thedogs?
Are they offering any type ofservices in the community?
When you adopt your dog, are yougetting that free veterinarian
exam from one of your localveterinarians that has partnered
with the shelter?
Those things are reallyimportant.
Donate, donate to your sheltersreally important, right, donate
, donate to your shelters,donate old towels or if you, you
know, maybe they need certainthings for enrichment, like they
(37:39):
need to set a brand new bunchof Kongs that they're going to
fill and freeze so the dogs havesomething to do when everyone
leaves for the night, or youknow little things like that.
I think that's really important.
Ask, ask what you can do inyour shelter.
Maybe you can become avolunteer or you can be a foster
.
One of the coolest things Ithink in the foster world is the
fospists.
Can I say that word, thefospists?
Amy Castro (37:59):
Yeah.
Daniel Ettinger (38:00):
It's a hospice.
Foster a foster hospice whereyou take an elderly dog and it
gets to live the next six monthsto maybe a year in your care
instead of just inside theshelter.
Little things like that.
You make space for another dogthat's going to come in and
hopefully gets adopted.
Find ways to promote adoptionevents.
One of the best forms ofadvertisements to this day is
(38:25):
word of mouth, whether it's onyour social media platform or
you're having a turkey sandwichwith Jan at the mini mart.
I don't know.
It sounds like a thing thaty'all would do in Texas.
Oh no, it'd be Bucky's.
Y'all would be at Bucky'sfilling up your tanks.
Amy Castro (38:42):
I'm always hanging out at Bucky's eating turkey
sandwiches.
It might be someplace else butI don't know about that.
But yeah.
I get it.
Yeah, so we're having asandwich with Jan somewhere at
the Gordon Street Tavern inAlvin and you're talking about
(39:02):
hey, do you ever go help thatshelter that needs it?
Down there, Right of the puzzle, the spay and neuter clinics,
the access to health care, thefostering, the volunteering all
of those feed into the solution.
So you can blah, blah, blah,blah, blah and run your mouth on
social media saying whyeverybody else should be doing
something.
If you're not doing any ofthose, if you're not involved in
(39:22):
any of that, if you're notadvocating or promoting or
sharing those posts about that,then shut up.
Don't complain when animals arebeing euthanized or when I say,
no, that I'm not taking your petinto the shelter.
It's gonna take a lot of peopleto be part of the solution, for
it to ever actually solveanything, Because it's like you
said we're not gonna adopt ourway out of it.
It's lots of pieces to thepuzzle and it's all the things
(39:45):
that get done before an animalsets foot into a shelter or a
rescue, whatever the case may be.
I know I do have rescue peoplethat are listening and a lot of
them are still living under thatumbrella of no-kill and just
kind of focusing on all thethings that we said were the
downside of no-kill.
They need to be doingdifferently or changing.
Daniel Ettinger (40:08):
There will be a fact sheet coming out really
soon, and one of the things thathas been asked quite often over
the last few weeks was is smartalso an option for rescues?
And I think I'm going torebrand the Facebook page to say
smart shelters slash rescues,because it is You're still doing
(40:29):
the same stuff that we're doing.
It's just, uh, you know, thesmart animal shelter is just a
opportunity, because you don'treally hear like, is it a no
kill rescue?
Most people already assume thatrescues don't you know?
That's just not what they do.
Amy Castro (40:45):
I will say, though, that there are a lot of people
and maybe it's just here inTexas that when they're working
their way down a list, they lookup whatever they look up animal
shelter and when you're loadingyourself on on Google, like it
asks you to categorize yourselfand they're not even thinking
about what they're calling.
So I have been asked many timesare you no-kill?
And I'm like what the hell?
(41:05):
What do you think I'm doingrescue for?
What the hell?
What do you think I'm doingrescue for?
But the reality is.
Daniel Ettinger (41:18):
I'm not really no-kill, because if you're
turning in something that's gotthis, this or this, I'm going to
euthanize it.
Amy Castro (41:22):
There's a practicality to it all, right,
yeah.
So let's just kind of lump theshelters and the rescues
together.
Daniel Ettinger (41:31):
From the standpoint of the philosophies
and actions, like what needs tochange?
The standpoint of thephilosophies and actions, like
what needs to change Correct.
I think that what needs tochange is we need to stop making
it personal, remove the ego andjust find ways to help people,
help animals, be creative, beinclusive, understand that
decisions are sometimes madethat may not include you, and
that's okay.
We can have other conversations.
But if we can be transparent inmost aspects, I think the
(41:54):
community will embrace that,even if it's not something that
they agree with, give them anopportunity to be heard.
Let's have a conversation andfrom there we come up with, you
know, with different ways tojust operate and learn how we
can work together in totality,like this animal sheltering and
rescuing.
Do you know how old it is inthe United States?
(42:15):
Do you want to take a guess?
Amy Castro (42:19):
I don't know, I'm trying to remember.
I saw that documentary on theguy that was the first, the guy
that started the Humane Societyor something.
Was it the 1800s?
Daniel Ettinger (42:30):
Henry Berg.
Henry Berg is the founder ofthe ASPCA.
He started animal welfare inthis country in 1864.
And the first animal shelter isstill active today under the
same name, known as the Woman'sAnimal Center.
That's correct, the Woman'sAnimal Center.
It was started by none otherthan Caroline Earl White.
(42:51):
Caroline Earl White wanted tobe part of the Pennsylvania
Society for Prevention ofCruelty to Animals, but you know
what they told her back in the1800s?
Amy Castro (43:01):
You're a girl, you can't, that's correct.
Daniel Ettinger (43:04):
You know what she said.
She said F you and you're awoman.
I'm going to take 30 women.
She took 30 women and theystarted their own damn
organization and it is theoldest animal shelter in this
country, first ever operatingand still in existence to this
day, just outside ofPhiladelphia, pennsylvania, and
that is in 18, shoot, I don'tknow 1864.
Amy Castro (43:29):
We can Google it.
74.
Daniel Ettinger (43:32):
It's a long-ass time ago, but it's not that my
point, though.
It's not that long ago.
Amy Castro (43:36):
We're still figuring all this stuff out, yeah.
Daniel Ettinger (43:39):
We're still figuring it out.
We've gone from and I hate tosay this, it's very barbaric,
but back in the 1800s they wouldtake dogs after 24 hours of not
being claimed, put them in ironcages and dunk them in the East
River, like that was horrible,like that is killing.
And now you know we've come along way.
(43:59):
We've come a long way andthere's a long way to go and I
think we'll get there.
Amy Castro (44:03):
There is a long way to go.
Daniel Ettinger (44:04):
We just have to work together.
We have to have that community.
Amy Castro (44:07):
Yeah, and together we have to have that community.
Yeah, and I think thattransparency piece is a big
piece of it.
I mean one of the things in therescue.
If you don't want to know, Iwon't go out of my way to tell
you, but if you ask me aquestion, I'm going to tell you
the truth and I don't reallycare if you don't like it and I
don't care if you go out and youput a bad review or a comment
on social media, because I cansleep at night with the
decisions that I've made.
(44:27):
And I think that's one of thethings that I kind of struggle
with.
That, from the standpoint of theshelters, at least as of the
ones that I have worked with asof recently and the one that I
worked at for basically for 10years is that I could see why
they didn't want to betransparent about it, because
what they were doing was wrongin many instances.
But when you get to the pointwhere you are finding that
(44:48):
balance between public safety,like you said you know,
balancing out euthanasia fromthe standpoint of behavioral or
medical and doing the rightthing there for the animal and
for society, and doingeverything, you can getting up
off your ass and doingeverything that you can to get
animals adopted out the doorthat you take in.
(45:09):
If you're doing all of thatright and your quote-unquote
numbers suck, then too bad, andI would say stand by that, put
it out there and anybody thatwants to complain.
You can justify what you'redoing and if you've got a better
solution, let's communicateabout a better solution.
But if you don't have an answerfor me, then I'm going to do
(45:31):
what I think is the right thingfor this animal and for the
humans involved and that's theway it's going to be.
But I don't know that for a lotof shelters that they're there
yet I think some are I can thinkof a couple at least in our
area that I interact withpersonally that I think they
should be completely proud ofwhat they do, because you know
they're doing what they can doin the situation that they find
(45:52):
themselves in.
Daniel Ettinger (45:57):
But then there's others that I think
could be doing a lot better.
Absolutely, absolutely, yeah,and we're here to support that.
Like that's our goal is toreally help.
Again, like I'll say it as longas I can say it help people,
help animals.
Amy Castro (46:08):
I'll say it as long as I can say it help people,
help animals, yeah, so forsomebody that's listening to
this, how can they learn moreabout SMART and how can they get
involved?
Like I know, it's gearedspecifically towards the
sheltering community for themost part, but, you know, is
there somewhere where peoplecould donate or get involved or
share information, like what doyou want people to do to help
(46:29):
grow this movement?
Daniel Ettinger (46:31):
Well, I think we're still in the infancy
stages.
So you're looking at this andyou're like, you know this is
good, but it would be better ifwe did this.
Shoot me an email.
It's danielkeepithumanecom.
You can go to keepithumanecomtoo.
Forward slash smart and it'llhave some information there.
And I'm really looking forpeople that have the bandwidth
to do more.
(46:51):
Like I can only do so much, butthat is not the ethos of smart.
The ethos of smart is truly acommunity, and so it takes that
community effort.
And so if people have thedesire to want to help more,
create like if there's anonprofit Spain neuter fund that
we can donate to and they wantto work with SMART, like let's
(47:14):
why reinvent the wheel, likelet's just see if they're
willing to work with us.
But I'll, you know, I need, Ineed help with that type of
stuff.
I'm hoping to do a town hallhere in the next few months to
just have a discussion withlike-minded individuals and kind
of.
Again, I don't want to makedecisions in a vacuum, I want
this to be our thing, and so,however, I can help at least get
(47:35):
us to that point.
That's what I want to do.
And then people that want tojoin in and do more.
I'm here for that.
Amy Castro (47:42):
Okay, so tell us about the podcast.
Daniel Ettinger (47:47):
Yeah, so the podcast.
Like you, I was listening toyour episode about your name
change.
Amy Castro (47:53):
Oh, evolution.
Daniel Ettinger (47:57):
We've had three name changes in our existence
of a podcast.
So we started in 2019 as theHumane Roundup.
I had this idea to change thename to the Animal Control
Report in 2021, I think.
And then this year, the startof this year, we landed on Keep
(48:17):
it Humane as the title becausewe were just doing so much more
than just animal control at thatpoint and Keep it Humane kind
of started organically back withthe Humane Roundup.
I used to just say keeping ithumane and that kind of turned
into a tagline.
And so here we are, theevolution of it, almost six
years now, and we talk abouteverything in our industry.
(48:38):
So if you're like a pet ownerand you're listening and you're
like huh, I wonder what animalcontrol does?
There's episodes for that, likehow to get into animal control.
Or, if you like true crime, wehave episodes that are true
crime centric when it comes toanimal crimes.
We have experts on that, haveauthors or work for large
organizations all differentthings but it's related to the
(49:02):
industry, with the hope ofgetting people to understand our
profession more, so they don'tsee us as the dog pound and the
dog catcher.
That was the whole point.
And one thing I want to mentiontoo, is if you're listening and
you've had interactions with ashelter or animal control and
you want to come on to ourpodcast and discuss that, we are
(49:22):
also a forum for that as well.
Amy Castro (49:25):
That's good.
I think it's very niche,however you like to say that.
But that's the beauty of apodcast, I think, is that if
somebody is a lay person andthey're not in the industry,
they can certainly go throughand pull out things.
That would be something thatthey could use, something that
would help educate them withoutnecessarily feeling like they
have to listen to every singleepisode.
It's the same with ours.
(49:45):
I love that people will go andpick around for certain things
that they need.
Daniel Ettinger (49:49):
We're here for it.
Amy Castro (49:50):
Yeah, so is there anything else that we didn't
talk about that you wanted totalk about?
Daniel Ettinger (49:55):
No, I mean, I think at the end of the day, we
just have to continue to workwith each other Like this is
Henry Berg, who started theASPCA back in 18, I want to say
it was 1864.
Amy Castro (50:06):
Now, I feel like.
Daniel Ettinger (50:06):
I'm getting my dates messed up and I'm going to
be embarrassed because I loveHenry Berg.
He didn't do it by himself.
He had a prominent lawyer inNew York City, elbridge Gary,
that helped him get some ofthose things passed.
He worked with judges andpolice officers.
And then you had GeorgeThorndike Angel, who was up in
Massachusetts at the timeworking with Henry Berg from a
(50:28):
distance, and then you hadCaroline Earl White in
Philadelphia.
Like they were all kind ofdoing the same thing, but they
were.
They embraced it Like therewasn't hate like there is today,
and that just blows me away.
I don't know if that's just ourculture as a country.
We're just like we hate.
So it's easier to hate thanrelate.
Make that a shirt.
Amy Castro (50:46):
There you go.
Daniel Ettinger (50:50):
Maybe I'll flip it, though, and say it's better
to relate than hate.
Amy Castro (50:53):
You better copyright that fast, I just did.
Daniel Ettinger (50:55):
We just put it on a podcast.
Publish this thing.
Amy Castro (51:01):
There you go.
It's public, that's rightPublish.
Daniel Ettinger (51:02):
You don't even need to put it on a sticky note
and put it in an envelope andmail it to yourself.
Amy Castro (51:05):
Nah, it's here, it's on Spotify.
I think that's a lesson to belearned for rescue groups too.
It's so siloed, and so usagainst them, and it's like if
we would just pool our resourcesand our energy.
My God, you know what we'daccomplish.
Daniel Ettinger (51:17):
Absolutely no-transcript.
Amy Castro (51:30):
Something going there.
Daniel Ettinger (51:32):
My pleasure, thank you.
Amy Castro (51:34):
If today's episode challenged the way you think
about rescue and sheltering,good, it's time we all stop
chasing numbers and start askingbetter questions.
Learn more about the SMARTapproach at keepithumanecom
forward slash smart.
And don't forget to check withyour local shelter, not just for
a new pet, but to ask howthey're really operating.
(51:56):
If we want better outcomes foranimals, it starts with
transparency, community andmaybe a little less ego.
See you next time.
Thanks for listening to MuddyPaws and Hairballs.
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your pets a big hug from us.
You've seen the memes, you've heard the slogans,
but what if I told you theno-kill movement isn't working
like we thought it would and infact, it's quietly hurting the
animals we claim to protect?
In this episode, we're pullingback the curtain on what's
really happening in shelters andrescues and why it's time for a
better way forward.
Stay tuned, way forward, staytuned.
(00:31):
Hey there, and welcome to MuddyPaws and Hairballs, the podcast
that skips the sugarcoating anddives straight into the messy,
meaningful and sometimesmaddening world of pet parenting
and rescue.
I'm your host, amy Castro, andtoday we're going there.
The no-kill movement startedwith good intentions Save more
lives, stop unnecessaryeuthanasia and push for change.
And that sounded great Untilshelters started closing their
(00:53):
doors to animals, not becausethey didn't care, but because
they were trying to meet thepublic's demand for a 90%
no-kill live release rate.
That number may look great onpaper, but what about the
fallout?
It's leaving finders stuck,animals dumped and some shelters
warehousing animals for yearswith no real plan for their
(01:14):
future.
My guest today is DanielEttinger, an animal welfare
professional, former animalcontrol officer and host of the
Keep it Humane podcast.
Together, we're digging intowhat's broken in the no-kill
model, why saving them all isn'talways the most humane choice
or the safest for the public andhow we can start shifting
(01:34):
towards a more honest, balancedand truly humane approach to
animal welfare.
So if you're ready to rethinkwhat rescue should look like
without the PR spin, then thisepisode is for you.
Daniel, welcome to the show.
Daniel Ettinger (01:48):
Thanks for having me.
Amy Castro (01:50):
I appreciate you coming on here.
Like I was saying before we gotstarted, this is a topic that
I've wanted to address and I'vekind of dropped some little
hints along the way, but I feellike, you know, getting it out
there in more detail would bebeneficial, and I'm seeing
people more and more in rescueand, you know, just seeing that
smart infographic.
That basically that's how Ifound you is because I saw that
infographic and I'm like, oh mygosh, that's exactly what we
(02:13):
need.
People are getting a little bitmore brave about putting it out
there and basically talkingabout no kill and where it's
working, where it's not, andmaybe there might be a better
option.
So just to kind of kick thingsoff, because you're the expert,
I think everybody's heard ofno-kill, but what does that mean
?
I mean, what is it in anutshell?
Daniel Ettinger (02:32):
I think that's part of the problem.
To be honest, amy, I really do,and I've had this discussion
with many people, not evenpeople that are in the industry,
not shelter workers, not rescueworkers.
(02:53):
One of the trips that I've beenon recently took me to good old
San Antonio, texas, I thinkthat's how you're supposed to
say it, san.
Antonio, Texas I think that'show you're supposed to say it
San Antonio.
And while I was there, I wasteaching a group of social
workers for the military and thefirst question that I was asked
(03:16):
in that training was are thereany shelters that are not
no-kill left in the UnitedStates?
Wow, shelters that are notno-kill left in the United
States Wow.
That's.
The problem is, we don't knowwhat it means.
In her mind, she thinks thatevery animal gets to either live
(03:36):
out the rest of its life in ashelter or sanctuary and that we
adopt out pretty much any andevery animal we can.
And I wish that was the case,amy.
I really do.
It's not Right.
So the definition is I justdon't know.
Amy Castro (03:50):
Yeah, and we hear that a lot around here when I
was volunteering at AnimalControl you know it was are you
no kill?
And it's like, okay, I kind ofthink of it as a show game.
It's like it depends on whatyou consider kill, no kill.
You know, is euthanasia part ofthe equation?
I mean, it just becomes thisvery complex thing.
But it's not as black and whiteas everybody lives, or they
(04:14):
don't.
Daniel Ettinger (04:16):
There is a need for euthanasia, and if anybody
says there's not, they aredelusional, I'll just throw it
out there.
And if anybody says there's not, they are delusional, I'll just
throw it out there.
I'm just going to be bluntabout that.
There is a need, there's abehavioral need and there's a
medical need.
Now, was there a time, is therestill a time, where euthanasia
(04:37):
happens for time and space?
It hasn't happened in my worldin the last 16 years that I've
been in this profession, but itdoesn't mean it doesn't happen.
It hasn't happened in my world,and so I think the intention
behind it was good.
Amy, I think that you know, butit depends on who you ask and
(04:58):
what you ask.
Organizations and I'm nottalking just one, I'm talking
big and small that may have usedthat terminology to help fund
their mission or their goals,because it's just a genius
marketing term.
Amy Castro (05:14):
Yeah.
So you know, I think theintention behind it is good.
I think the intent to say weshouldn't be euthanizing for
space, we shouldn't beeuthanizing if it's avoidable,
healthy, adoptable animal, and Ibelieve that.
But I think the other thingthat people need to consider is
(05:37):
that there are a lot of factorsthat feed into the whole animal
sheltering, animal rescue,animal welfare world that need
to be in place just so in orderto create that reality.
Like I had a lady the other daythat posted when I had said
something no kills not working.
Her comment was it's working inmy neighborhood.
(05:58):
I said what do you mean?
Well, you know, we've reallyhelped a lot of feral cats by
doing trapped neuter return andit's like okay, so trapped
neuter return is working in yourneighborhood, great, so it's
like you know, and she's right.
I mean that's a piece of thepuzzle.
Like ideally you'd have allthese pieces in play and then
(06:19):
you wouldn't be in as dire asituation for euthanizing
healthy, adoptable animals.
But the reality is especiallyhere in Texas I don't know what
it's like in California is thatthose other pieces aren't in
play.
Trap neuter return is in many,even though the state has made
it legal.
There are municipalities thatsay you can't release an animal
(06:40):
because that's putting an animalat large and that's illegal.
There are communities thatdon't want that in their
community because they don'twant cats, you know, climbing on
their cars.
And so if that one piecedoesn't work, what are the other
pieces that aren't working?
You know, what are you seeing?
That are the pieces that aremissing to make that work.
Daniel Ettinger (06:57):
I think, first and foremost, the terminology
creates this divide in ourcommunity.
And in that creates this dividein our community and that's
taking away from other avenueswhere we can truly create a kind
of a harmonious, working, justanimal welfare world where we're
all trying to chip in to helppeople, help animals.
(07:18):
We say that on our podcast allthe time help people, help
animals.
And people ask well, what doesthat mean?
And it's we don't do enough tofocus on what the community
actually needs.
We try to meet this arbitrarynumber and that's that 90% live
release rate.
That is a very arbitrary numberand data will support that.
(07:43):
I think the community needsaccess to care.
So low-cost bayoneter, low-costvaccinations, low-cost services
.
So if I have a dog that needs ahip replacement, or I'm not
just giving it to the shelter,or a dog with pyometra, I'm not
just giving it to the shelter.
Or a puppy with parvo, right,I'm not euthanizing it or giving
it to the shelter because Ican't care for it.
(08:03):
So we need to find thosemechanisms.
And then that second piece, thatsecond tier to that, is we need
to find appropriate rules forhousing.
So if you rent, if you're arenter, you may know how
difficult it is to have pets asa renter and that I don't know
what percentage that wouldchange Like if you polled people
that currently can't have a petbecause of their apartment.
(08:25):
How much would that go up?
And what I mean by that is, ifI want a pet, I'm going to have
a pet Like, regardless.
I'm going to either make it anemotional support animal or I'm
just going to live with it in myapartment.
And they better not say nothingbecause if they do, I'll just
keep my pet and they'll have toevict me, right.
So there's that.
I don't know if that's going togive us like a 10% increase in
(08:46):
adoptions from the shelter or a50% increase, and I don't know
if there's a mechanism to trulytrack that, but we have to find
ways to soften that so we canhave just around, all around for
all animals, all pets, justbetter resources in general.
Amy Castro (09:26):
All animals, all pets.
I have a dog that I need togive up, or I found a dog I need
to do this, or whatever itmight be.
It's like why?
What is the situation?
First, and oftentimes it doescome down to lack of resources
for medical treatment, which weprovide in many instances, or
the housing situation.
That's a whole nother.
I mean, we could do a wholeepisode on that in and of itself
(09:47):
.
But the challenge is and yousee, people you know you made
the comment about, you know,having the alternative is
turning it into a shelter Aroundhere, the way that the shelter
so this is the ripple effectthat I was trying to explain,
apparently not very eloquentlyon Facebook the other day is
that you know, all of theseshelters in our area, the
(10:07):
municipal ones and thenon-municipal ones, even if they
don't want to call themselvesno-kill because they don't want
to be held to that standard,they're all trying to live to
that standard.
You know they're very proud ofputting out their live release
rates and I think those numbers,like you mentioned, I mean,
what is a live release rate?
What is 90%?
What's included in that?
What's not included in that isa whole shell game in my book.
(10:29):
But what they do is theybasically close doors.
So, whereas a municipal shelter, who I would think their role
is to keeping the community safeand you know safety would
include not allowing dogsrunning down the highway because
it can cause a wreck, ifnothing else, sure that they are
flat out saying no, we can'tcome get it because we're full.
(10:51):
But they've got that 90% liverelease rate.
Daniel Ettinger (10:56):
And why are we judging the success of any
individual, or shelter or rescue, on their live release rate?
It should be much more thanthat.
Amy Castro (11:06):
Yeah, but that's what people have stuck in their
head.
I mean people will literallycall us as a rescue and say, are
you no kill?
Or they'll say well, I don'twant to adopt from a blah blah
because I'll refer them Like youshould go to this shelter, oh,
I don't want to adopt from thembecause they're not no kill.
Daniel Ettinger (11:21):
But when you want to help them more kill.
Amy Castro (11:23):
That's exactly who you should be adopting from is
the highest kill shelter you canfind.
The mindset is just people arejust delusional.
They don't have a clue what'sreally going on.
Daniel Ettinger (11:36):
What blows my mind right is you can get a
plaque that says I don't evenknow what the plaque says it
comes from and it says, like in2024, you are a no-kill shelter
or whatever.
I think that's what it is.
That's all they're looking at.
They're not looking at.
How many community events didyou do?
(11:57):
Did you do spay and neuterservices?
Did you offer low-costvaccinations throughout the year
?
Are you giving away microchipsfor free?
Are you working in schoolsdoing humane education so we can
tell the youth what's important, Like?
Are all we looking at to getthat plaque is a number?
Do you just have to hit 90%?
Amy Castro (12:14):
Yeah, wow, yeah, yeah.
And that's the sad thing andyou know, even the owner
surrenders I mean, that was thefirst to go around here is that
we can keep our numbers down bynot taking owner surrenders, and
so I always find it funny.
But people say, well, I'll beforced to take it to the shelter
.
And I want to laugh and say,yeah, good luck with that,
because there's not a shelter inthe area that's going to take
(12:37):
it.
Or people will be again veryproud that such and such an
organization is no kill.
And it's like, well, it's easyto be no kill if you put all
kinds of parameters on what youtake through your doors.
Like I only take, you know,pink poodles that are between
the ages of two and four years.
You know what I mean.
It's like, yeah, then it's easybecause those are the highly
(13:00):
desirable ones.
It's the other ones that don'thave any choice about what they
take in that end up with thoseanimals that sit and sit and sit
.
So there's just so much thatfeeds into that that the
public's not aware of, and theyjust kind of go along and drink
the Kool-Aid 100%, that's theterm we hear a lot.
Daniel Ettinger (13:17):
They're drinking the Kool-Aid.
Amy Castro (13:19):
Yeah.
So what are you seeing as faras the impact?
I know for me what we're seeinghere and just in my little
small world.
We're seeing finders, just asan example, basically being
stuck with animals and, like Ifound a husky on the side.
No, this is a good one.
A guy said my son saw a huskyrunning in the street and he
(13:41):
picked it up and he brought ithome and I can't find anybody to
take it.
Can you take it?
It's like no, I can't take it.
Well, what am I supposed to dowith it?
And what I really want to sayis I guess you just better let
it go, because if you can't keepit and you can't care for it
and you can't find anybody totake it, what are you supposed
to do?
And then people get mad.
You never should have picked itup in the first place.
(14:02):
I mean, I don't know what totell people, but people are
getting stuck and they don'trealize the ripple effect of the
shelter is full.
The shelters, you know, they'retrying to maintain that number.
They're full.
Then they basically say well,we're full, call the rescues.
Now I'm telling you I'm fullbecause I'm taking all the
overflow that they didn't take.
And then people are being stuckin it.
(14:24):
You know, it just creates thisripple effect of more animals
just being left on the street orpeople finding animals and
being stuck with animals thatthey can't care for, and that's
just one impact.
What else?
What else is the kind of thedownside of this attempt at
playing this shell game?
Daniel Ettinger (14:43):
I take my time to answer these questions
because I think I'll be honest,amy, I don't know if there is
truly Like it's.
It's all hypotheticals in someaspects because the data is not
out there as far as like what'sreally happening.
There's data out there thatwill support whatever goal or
(15:04):
mission you're trying toaccomplish, but what I can say
from an anecdotal perspectivewould be that it's creating an
environment where, like you said, people don't want to go to a
shelter that's open in missionbecause they feel like they
don't adhere to the no-killpolicies, and then what happens
(15:35):
is those animals are less likelyto get adopted because people
are angry or upset with thatshelter.
You have that aspect and, again, I don't know how accurate that
is.
That's just an anecdotalresponse to what I've heard or
seen.
You have people that are turnedaway from releasing animals or,
excuse me like whether it'sowner surrender or strays, that
you know.
There's some stories if youjust Google what happens, and
there's some really negativethings that happen because of
(15:58):
that, where animals are treatedreally, really, really poorly,
which may include death becausethat person is frustrated and
takes it out on the animal.
Obviously we don't condoneanything like that, because they
feel helpless, they feel likewe've tried and then you're
turning us away.
So the next best thing to do isX, which is not the next best
(16:19):
thing to do, but it's anemotional response to an
emotional situation and it's notrational.
And I think, having thosebarriers in place, it's almost
like we have to be tribal inthis situation, and not that we
intend to be, but that's what itis.
It's like you either subscribeto the one tribe which is no
(16:41):
kill, or you're against it, andI don't think that's the way
that it should be.
And again, going back to yourinitial question, I don't know
if that was the way that it wasintended.
I think egos get involved and Ithink people run with certain
things because their name'sbehind that and they want to see
.
You know, see it just continueto grow.
Amy Castro (17:00):
There's a lot of other challenges that I have
with the impact of no kill fromorganizations and we've done it
too.
We've had the dog or the catthat's been in our program for X
amount of time and we're soproud of the fact that after 275
days, you know, I think thedifference for me is that our
275 days, the animals living ina home, not living in a cage
(17:21):
somewhere, for you know, fiveyears of its life or whatever
the case may be, and whetherthat's the best thing and what
that, but I will say that thewhole.
I mean I've got a pit bull inmy.
She's not in my living roomright now because I'm showing my
house, so all of my pets areout in my dog kennel building
that I built.
But you know, I've had her inour program for two years
(17:43):
because she's blind and she hasother issues that make her not
like the perfectly adoptable petfor just anybody.
And it's like I often questionmyself and say is that the right
thing or should?
Because she's basically tied upa spot in my rescue for the
last two years and how manyanimals who didn't have issues
(18:05):
could I have taken in and turnedover and gotten adopted out in
them.
So there's, you know, there's alot of other factors that I
think we could dive into as faras challenges, because we're
trying to be no kill and do theright thing kill and do the
(18:25):
right thing, but you know whatelse happens to.
Daniel Ettinger (18:27):
I didn't mean no, no, one of the things we
didn't get into is you getpeople that call themselves
rescues, right, and they do thatbecause they there's a lot of
factors, but they do that forwhatever purpose it is, and then
they go to these municipalshelters or shelters that don't
use the label no kill andthey'll take animals and then
they'll warehouse them and thenthey become a problem in the
community because now we havethis excessive hoarding
(18:49):
situation.
Uh, we covered a really insanecase out of colorado about, uh,
louanne strickland, who in somesenses was the queen of no kill
um, in colorado, was a big, bigsupporter of that by the time of
her death, when she was inupper eighties or nineties.
(19:10):
She lived a long time.
She was in possession of over400 dogs and just deplorable
living conditions, and so, like,where's that balance right?
Like where's we don't want dogsliving in horrid situations,
but then, for whatever reason,for whatever reason, we play
(19:32):
this emotional game of well, Idon't want to have to put this
animal down because of our ownpersonal belief in death.
Amy Castro (19:39):
And.
Daniel Ettinger (19:40):
I don't know if we want to take the podcast
there, but I think that has astrong piece to it as well.
Amy Castro (19:45):
Oh, yeah, 100%.
I think there are things thatare worse than death and being
in a hoarding situation for yourentire life or a huge chunk of
your life.
I think we spend too much timeapplying our human standards of
life and death and our fear ofdeath and applying that to an
animal who has no fear of deathand is just going to be here and
(20:09):
not here, and so maybe that'sbetter in some instances.
But yeah, I mean that's.
Another factor is thewarehousing and the hoarding of
animals, and that's not thepoint of a rescue.
To me, a rescue is supposed tobe a pipeline.
Now, if you're a sanctuary fora certain type of animal, that's
fine, but even then there's alimit to how much space that you
have, and then you draw thelimit and then you know when the
(20:29):
animal dies of natural causesor whatever, then maybe you have
a spot for something else, butyou don't just keep stacking
them to the ceilings, and Ithink that's what's happened, so
that people and I think it'snot even just the fear of death
I think it's a huge piece of ego.
One of the examples that I can'tremember if I mentioned this
because I did a very shortpodcast episode last week about
(20:52):
why I'm personally getting outof the hands on of rescue and I
think I did did share this story, but I'll just share it with
you.
It's like the person that findsan animal that can't use its
back legs and can't urinate onits own, so it needs its bladder
expressed multiple times a dayand they're all in.
They're going to do that fouror five times a day for the rest
of that animal's life and it'slike, no, not on my watch,
(21:13):
You're not, because that's not alife for that animal.
You may be feeling like a heroand I think there's a certain
amount of you know, hero complex, savior complex and even martyr
complex.
Like, look at what I'vesacrificed for this poor animal.
You know like I could put itout on social media and say how
awesome I am because I expressedthis animal's bladder five
(21:34):
times a day for the last fiveyears and it's like, yeah,
that's just like I have a realbig problem with that with that.
So talk to us about SMART,because it's just a better way
of looking at this whole messthat we've created in a much
more balanced and appropriateway, for the best of the animals
, I think.
Daniel Ettinger (21:54):
I knew that there needed to be something to
I hate to say it counter no-kill.
That was the whole idea, and sowhat I wanted was hey, are you
a no-kill shelter?
No, we're actually a smartshelter, and here's why I worked
with Dr G, Dr Michelle Gonzalez, who has her own podcast called
(22:15):
the Animal Welfare Junction.
She's awesome.
She's been a super bigsupporter of smart, and so she
and I were, you know, justtexting back and forth and it
just landed saving more animalsresponsibly together, and it's
just perfect, it fits.
That's.
That's what we're trying.
All of us are trying to dowithout ego, like we're just
(22:36):
trying to get in there and seehow we can help people, help
animals, like that is our goal,that should be our goal and
that's that was the birth, thatwas like how it really started,
and so it's really to kind ofcome along and embrace that
there is a need for somethingdifferent.
The biggest thing that I see,with no kill this is just a
(22:57):
personal opinion Like nothing, Isay is other than my own
personal opinion is that we allsearch for an identity, whether
that's individually orcollectively or in a
professional setting, whetherit's the shelter we work for,
whether it's our own lives, etc.
And no kill was a great way tocreate an identity.
I'm a no kill shelter I'm partof this big group, we are no
(23:19):
kill was a great way to createan identity.
I'm a no kill shelter.
I'm part of this big group, weare no kill.
And I think that really helpedsupport that movement.
And as I sit here and realizethat the only other true
identity out there was sociallyconscious sheltering, try saying
that three times fast in asentence.
Amy Castro (23:34):
Yeah, really.
Daniel Ettinger (23:36):
It was a great concept and I know some of the
people that were involved in thebackground of that and I think
that it was rightfully.
It was great timing, just bad,poor name management.
Truthfully, and I mean thatwith all due respect, as we now
have this ability to like, focusand move forward, smart creates
(23:59):
an identity for all of us as wework together.
And the fun fact, the littleside note the thing that I like
the best about smart and itwasn't intentional when it was
created was our industry and howwe used to operate.
We were dealing with dumbanimals, and when I say that
that was the terminology used inthe 1800s to describe dogs and
(24:23):
cats, they were dumb, right,even horses dumb.
The Denver Dumb Friends Leaguehas been a very popular shelter
for many, many, many, actually acentury, and they finally
changed the name to HumaneColorado, which is great Good
for them.
But to to bring it full circle,we've taken it from dumb to now
(24:46):
smart and the goal is to reallyprovide that identity, provide
an opportunity for us to shareresources, network together as a
group, but then come up withother ways that we can work in
our community to help people,help animals.
Yeah.
Amy Castro (25:04):
So are there some basic tenets of the solution
that SMART is proposing.
Daniel Ettinger (25:10):
First and foremost, it's just creating
that environment of a communityright.
It's also creating anopportunity to work with your
public health officials and OneHealth model.
I don't know if you can hear mydog, but he's saying hello in
the background.
Amy Castro (25:27):
It's a pet podcast.
It's okay, that's how we do it.
Daniel Ettinger (25:30):
He sees a skateboard, I'm sure, and in
that aspect it's really justtrying to use practical
applications on how we can helpas a community.
So, again, I can't stressenough the access to care piece.
I can't stress enough that 90%doesn't mean anything.
It's a made-up number withtruly arbitrary and controlled
(25:56):
data to make it what it is.
Arbitrary and controlled datato make it what it is.
It's that transparency piece tomake sure that we're
communicating with everyone, notjust our staff but the
community.
And then responsible treatment.
So what does responsibletreatment look like?
It's that aspect of trulymaking sure no animal is
(26:16):
suffering due to behavioralissues or medical issues, and so
it may sound a lot like whatno-kill is, but it removes some
barriers that are in place.
Amy Castro (26:27):
And you know it's interesting because I do see
bits of like.
There are several organizationsin our area who are very, very
focused on that and they'regetting utilized Like a
spay-neuter clinic, and theyneutered 100 dogs this weekend.
They're fully focused on thatpiece of it, because that's a
piece of the puzzle.
And then the other aspect Ithink too, is the behavioral
element.
I think part of the issue hasbeen, and one of the reasons why
(26:50):
at least around here, some ofthe no-kill has gotten a little
bit of a tarnished reputationfrom a standpoint of a belief,
is the animals that probablyshould not be adopted out to the
public.
That are being adopted out tothe public and we saved it but
to do what you know, to maim achild or to kill somebody or be
(27:11):
chained in a backyard becauseit's not a safe animal to be
around, and that's a wholenother piece of it too, I think.
Daniel Ettinger (27:17):
It is safe animal to be around, and that's
a whole nother piece of it too.
I think it is.
And if you go back to anepisode we did with Paulette
Dean, who runs the DanvilleAnimal Shelter in Virginia, she
was attacked due to her liverelease rate and again you
mentioned, every community isdifferent.
(27:38):
It was a great episode.
This is her experience, notmine.
But she talks about the threatsthat were made.
Not only were people makingthreats, social media-wise
people were in person, followingstaff members home and having
conversations how dare you workthere?
To the point where people quitworking at that shelter because
(28:00):
they were in fear.
Our goal is not to take anapproach where we're going to
bully people.
Our goal is going to take theapproach of how can we create
that sense of community?
So if I can't help you, maybeAmy can help you, and if Amy
can't help you, maybe DrG canhelp you.
And if Dr G can't help you,so-and-so may be willing to help
you.
And if Amy can't help you,maybe Dr G can help you.
And if Dr G can't help you,so-and-so may be willing to help
(28:20):
you.
Versus you're going to do whatI say because we are the
conglomerate in this industryand if you don't do it, here's
what's going to happen.
And that's exactly what theydid and thankfully she stood her
ground and has continued tomove forward with her shelter
and what she knows how to do.
We shouldn't have that in ourindustry.
(28:42):
There was a case out of Denverwhere a dog bit a child in the
face.
I want to say the dog was aspaniel of some sort, maybe like
a Springer or English, somesort of dog like that.
It wasn't the first bite onrecord and it was their own
child and they didn't want thedog in the house with the kid
(29:04):
anymore.
Totally get that.
Yeah, when they surrendered thedog to the shelter, they
surrendered it specifically foreuthanasia.
Somehow a rescue got involvedand said no, no, no, no, no, no.
That dog shouldn't be put tosleep.
You should request that dogback.
And Denver stood their groundfor a while saying it was
(29:25):
surrendered for euthanasia.
We have an obligation forpublic safety.
We're not going to release thisdog.
They literally picketed infront of the shelter.
I don't know for how long, butthere was a group picketing in
front of the shelter.
I don't know for how long, butthere was a group picketing in
front of the shelter, justthrowing mud on them for wanting
to euthanize a dog that bit akid in the face, and it wasn't
(29:45):
the first bite that it's had.
What are we talking about,people?
There's probably a dog in thatshelter at that time that has
been there for over 150, 200days and you're worried about a
dog that bit a kid in the face.
But this dog that may look uglyand isn't the most adoptable
candidate, because the way itlooks, just because the way it
looks, not its behavior, justbecause the way it looks why
(30:06):
aren't you advocating for thatdog?
But you're going to advocatefor a dog that bit a child in
the face.
Point to that story was therescue finally was able to get
the dog out after all thisonslaught, and one of the quotes
from that rescue and you beingin that world, I'd love your
take on this was we really beatthem down.
Amy Castro (30:27):
Yeah, I believe it what are we doing?
What are we doing?
I know, yeah, I think well,part of the issue is that and
the challenge that I see withwith rescues, is that element of
cooperation is just not there.
Everybody's got their littlephilosophy.
(30:48):
Half the time it's not evenadequately fleshed out or well
thought out, and then they drawpeople like themselves that
drink the Kool-Aid and then theystart getting the pitchforks
and the flaming torches and offthey go.
They're so focused on that onething, that one save that one
animal, that they're not seeingthe bigger picture of things.
And I mean it doesn't surpriseme at all, to be perfectly
(31:10):
honest.
I mean everybody's quick tocriticize and everybody's quick
to try to be a hero, but notnecessarily to acknowledge that
tough decisions do need to bemade and that it's just a very,
very narrow minded way oflooking at the big picture.
Daniel Ettinger (31:26):
To actually say like we really beat them down
to give in to what we wanted.
Basically tells me everything Ineed to know about you in your
organization, like you're notreally here for the animals,
you're here for you.
Amy Castro (31:37):
Well, that's why it goes back to that ego and savior
thing, and it's like saving forwhat?
Like you said, there's probablymore than one other dog.
There's probably seven otherdogs sitting in that shelter
that were more deserving oftheir time and effort to rescue
and find a home for than the onethat bit a kid and bit other
people.
But that's the one that theyjump on that bandwagon for 100%.
(32:00):
So what do you say to peoplewho give pushback on taking this
smart approach?
Or are you getting pushback atall?
Daniel Ettinger (32:09):
It's been somewhat overwhelming and
unexpected the amount of inquiryand just interest and wanting
to be heard.
Again.
It comes back to providing thatsafe space and identity for us
as a group to really say likeyeah, we're part of this smart
shelter group, like let's helppeople, help animals, come on,
(32:30):
um, I got a message from someonein the deep South.
Can I say that I've alwayswanted to say the deep South
South?
Can I say that I've alwayswanted to say the deep South?
Sure, and, and at first Ithought they were like
supporting, like the.
The email was like I'm confused, like are they supporting this?
They were like giving me thebackground on Nathan Winograd
and how he came up with the 90%live release rate.
(32:52):
And I'm like, here we go and wehad a conversation yesterday
and we talked for probably anhour and just I hope she's
listening.
If not, maybe I'll send it toher because it was just a
wonderful conversation about twopeople with different views.
She's not going to give up theno kill conversation and
terminology.
That is her identity.
(33:13):
But she also is supportive ofwhat smart is and so I think it
felt good to find somebody forher.
I think it felt good forsomeone like to find someone
like me or smart, where we'reproviding that place for them to
like.
Focus on what's the trueproblem?
The true problem is access tocare.
Like we're not spaying andneutering our pets, we're not
(33:33):
providing a way for them to getthe help that they need.
What do we think is going tohappen?
We're going to have high intake, high populations in our
shelters and we're not going tobe able to we're never going to
be able to adopt our way out ofit, that is just a facetious.
That's not the right word I'mlooking for.
What's the word?
Amy Castro (33:50):
A delusional.
Delusion yeah.
Daniel Ettinger (33:53):
Yeah, we're not going to adopt our way out of
it.
We're going to work our way outof it by providing those
resources in our communities.
And then, one day, long beyondprobably, either of our
existence or consciousness onthis planet, we'll be
importing—we shouldn't do it now, but we already do—importing
animals from other countries,because we won't have any here
to adopt.
Amy Castro (34:16):
Yeah, and I've had that conversation with people
before too, and I think this issomething that's important for
you know, because this podcastis specifically targeted to pet
parents.
If I'm just an average personout in the community, I am
thinking about getting a pet, orI just like animals and I care
about animals, what should I bedoing about it?
(34:38):
I even put a post on Facebookthe other day because it
aggravates me when I get taggedby some rando along with 5,000
other rescues to save this.
You know, red alert, sos, dogat bark or whatever the case may
be, and it's like somebody.
And then all the commentssomebody go save him, somebody
do this, it's terrible thatthey're going to do that.
(34:58):
And it's like what are youdoing?
Daniel Ettinger (35:01):
I would say this, unless you have a specific
need maybe you're a farmer andyou need that border collie with
that bloodline that knows howto.
Can I swear on your podcast?
I won't do it, yeah, and I'mprobably not going to get it at
the shelter because I don't knowwhat that dog is.
Amy Castro (35:17):
You might, you might get lucky.
Daniel Ettinger (35:18):
You might, you might.
But unless it's a specific job,it's a seeing.
I mean again, some of thesedogs you can get at shelters
like a true ADA dog, a CNI dog,you can take them from shelters
and work with them, like there'snot saying that you can't
(35:40):
Police dogs.
That one's a little more tricky, right.
So, unless we're talking aboutthat big three right there that
I mentioned, don't go buy a petfrom a pet store.
What is wrong with you?
People Like, seriously, ifyou're listening and you like
dogs and cats, don't buysomething.
What are you doing?
If you're going to spend fivegrand on a dog, donate that
$4,750 to the shelter that yougo and adopt a $250 dog from and
(36:00):
you get the same love, nomatter what.
Amy Castro (36:03):
Yep.
Daniel Ettinger (36:06):
I'm speaking your love language, Amy, aren't
I?
Amy Castro (36:08):
Yeah, yeah, yeah and yeah, I've never been against.
You know, breeding.
I think there are animals thatneed to be bred for certain
purposes, but yeah, your averageperson does not need to go out
and get a purebred dog just tohave it or just to have it, and
then don't get even started onthe doodles and things like that
.
Daniel Ettinger (36:27):
A purebred, $7,000 golden doodle, whatever
man, when I take my dog to thedog beach I swear there's like
4% of dogs that come from theshelter.
It's all purebreds.
I'm like okay, whatever.
Amy Castro (36:40):
So that's one piece of it.
What else can we be doing onthe community level?
Daniel Ettinger (36:47):
Know that no kill doesn't exist.
That is a false terminology.
If I could sue whoever createdthat for false advertisement, I
would, because ultimately itdoes not exist.
That terminology is a deceitfuland misleading term, so don't
get sucked into that.
I would more likely worry aboutwhat are the conditions like
(37:12):
inside the shelter.
Do they do enrichment for thedogs?
Are they offering any type ofservices in the community?
When you adopt your dog, are yougetting that free veterinarian
exam from one of your localveterinarians that has partnered
with the shelter?
Those things are reallyimportant.
Donate, donate to your sheltersreally important, right, donate
, donate to your shelters,donate old towels or if you, you
know, maybe they need certainthings for enrichment, like they
(37:39):
need to set a brand new bunchof Kongs that they're going to
fill and freeze so the dogs havesomething to do when everyone
leaves for the night, or youknow little things like that.
I think that's really important.
Ask, ask what you can do inyour shelter.
Maybe you can become avolunteer or you can be a foster
.
One of the coolest things Ithink in the foster world is the
fospists.
Can I say that word, thefospists?
Amy Castro (37:59):
Yeah.
Daniel Ettinger (38:00):
It's a hospice.
Foster a foster hospice whereyou take an elderly dog and it
gets to live the next six monthsto maybe a year in your care
instead of just inside theshelter.
Little things like that.
You make space for another dogthat's going to come in and
hopefully gets adopted.
Find ways to promote adoptionevents.
One of the best forms ofadvertisements to this day is
(38:25):
word of mouth, whether it's onyour social media platform or
you're having a turkey sandwichwith Jan at the mini mart.
I don't know.
It sounds like a thing thaty'all would do in Texas.
Oh no, it'd be Bucky's.
Y'all would be at Bucky'sfilling up your tanks.
Amy Castro (38:42):
I'm always hanging out at Bucky's eating turkey
sandwiches.
It might be someplace else butI don't know about that.
But yeah.
I get it.
Yeah, so we're having asandwich with Jan somewhere at
the Gordon Street Tavern inAlvin and you're talking about
(39:02):
hey, do you ever go help thatshelter that needs it?
Down there, Right of the puzzle, the spay and neuter clinics,
the access to health care, thefostering, the volunteering all
of those feed into the solution.
So you can blah, blah, blah,blah, blah and run your mouth on
social media saying whyeverybody else should be doing
something.
If you're not doing any ofthose, if you're not involved in
(39:22):
any of that, if you're notadvocating or promoting or
sharing those posts about that,then shut up.
Don't complain when animals arebeing euthanized or when I say,
no, that I'm not taking your petinto the shelter.
It's gonna take a lot of peopleto be part of the solution, for
it to ever actually solveanything, Because it's like you
said we're not gonna adopt ourway out of it.
It's lots of pieces to thepuzzle and it's all the things
(39:45):
that get done before an animalsets foot into a shelter or a
rescue, whatever the case may be.
I know I do have rescue peoplethat are listening and a lot of
them are still living under thatumbrella of no-kill and just
kind of focusing on all thethings that we said were the
downside of no-kill.
They need to be doingdifferently or changing.
Daniel Ettinger (40:08):
There will be a fact sheet coming out really
soon, and one of the things thathas been asked quite often over
the last few weeks was is smartalso an option for rescues?
And I think I'm going torebrand the Facebook page to say
smart shelters slash rescues,because it is You're still doing
(40:29):
the same stuff that we're doing.
It's just, uh, you know, thesmart animal shelter is just a
opportunity, because you don'treally hear like, is it a no
kill rescue?
Most people already assume thatrescues don't you know?
That's just not what they do.
Amy Castro (40:45):
I will say, though, that there are a lot of people
and maybe it's just here inTexas that when they're working
their way down a list, they lookup whatever they look up animal
shelter and when you're loadingyourself on on Google, like it
asks you to categorize yourselfand they're not even thinking
about what they're calling.
So I have been asked many timesare you no-kill?
And I'm like what the hell?
(41:05):
What do you think I'm doingrescue for?
What the hell?
What do you think I'm doingrescue for?
But the reality is.
Daniel Ettinger (41:18):
I'm not really no-kill, because if you're
turning in something that's gotthis, this or this, I'm going to
euthanize it.
Amy Castro (41:22):
There's a practicality to it all, right,
yeah.
So let's just kind of lump theshelters and the rescues
together.
Daniel Ettinger (41:31):
From the standpoint of the philosophies
and actions, like what needs tochange?
The standpoint of thephilosophies and actions, like
what needs to change Correct.
I think that what needs tochange is we need to stop making
it personal, remove the ego andjust find ways to help people,
help animals, be creative, beinclusive, understand that
decisions are sometimes madethat may not include you, and
that's okay.
We can have other conversations.
But if we can be transparent inmost aspects, I think the
(41:54):
community will embrace that,even if it's not something that
they agree with, give them anopportunity to be heard.
Let's have a conversation andfrom there we come up with, you
know, with different ways tojust operate and learn how we
can work together in totality,like this animal sheltering and
rescuing.
Do you know how old it is inthe United States?
(42:15):
Do you want to take a guess?
Amy Castro (42:19):
I don't know, I'm trying to remember.
I saw that documentary on theguy that was the first, the guy
that started the Humane Societyor something.
Was it the 1800s?
Daniel Ettinger (42:30):
Henry Berg.
Henry Berg is the founder ofthe ASPCA.
He started animal welfare inthis country in 1864.
And the first animal shelter isstill active today under the
same name, known as the Woman'sAnimal Center.
That's correct, the Woman'sAnimal Center.
It was started by none otherthan Caroline Earl White.
(42:51):
Caroline Earl White wanted tobe part of the Pennsylvania
Society for Prevention ofCruelty to Animals, but you know
what they told her back in the1800s?
Amy Castro (43:01):
You're a girl, you can't, that's correct.
Daniel Ettinger (43:04):
You know what she said.
She said F you and you're awoman.
I'm going to take 30 women.
She took 30 women and theystarted their own damn
organization and it is theoldest animal shelter in this
country, first ever operatingand still in existence to this
day, just outside ofPhiladelphia, pennsylvania, and
that is in 18, shoot, I don'tknow 1864.
Amy Castro (43:29):
We can Google it.
74.
Daniel Ettinger (43:32):
It's a long-ass time ago, but it's not that my
point, though.
It's not that long ago.
Amy Castro (43:36):
We're still figuring all this stuff out, yeah.
Daniel Ettinger (43:39):
We're still figuring it out.
We've gone from and I hate tosay this, it's very barbaric,
but back in the 1800s they wouldtake dogs after 24 hours of not
being claimed, put them in ironcages and dunk them in the East
River, like that was horrible,like that is killing.
And now you know we've come along way.
(43:59):
We've come a long way andthere's a long way to go and I
think we'll get there.
Amy Castro (44:03):
There is a long way to go.
Daniel Ettinger (44:04):
We just have to work together.
We have to have that community.
Amy Castro (44:07):
Yeah, and together we have to have that community.
Yeah, and I think thattransparency piece is a big
piece of it.
I mean one of the things in therescue.
If you don't want to know, Iwon't go out of my way to tell
you, but if you ask me aquestion, I'm going to tell you
the truth and I don't reallycare if you don't like it and I
don't care if you go out and youput a bad review or a comment
on social media, because I cansleep at night with the
decisions that I've made.
(44:27):
And I think that's one of thethings that I kind of struggle
with.
That, from the standpoint of theshelters, at least as of the
ones that I have worked with asof recently and the one that I
worked at for basically for 10years is that I could see why
they didn't want to betransparent about it, because
what they were doing was wrongin many instances.
But when you get to the pointwhere you are finding that
(44:48):
balance between public safety,like you said you know,
balancing out euthanasia fromthe standpoint of behavioral or
medical and doing the rightthing there for the animal and
for society, and doingeverything, you can getting up
off your ass and doingeverything that you can to get
animals adopted out the doorthat you take in.
(45:09):
If you're doing all of thatright and your quote-unquote
numbers suck, then too bad, andI would say stand by that, put
it out there and anybody thatwants to complain.
You can justify what you'redoing and if you've got a better
solution, let's communicateabout a better solution.
But if you don't have an answerfor me, then I'm going to do
(45:31):
what I think is the right thingfor this animal and for the
humans involved and that's theway it's going to be.
But I don't know that for a lotof shelters that they're there
yet I think some are I can thinkof a couple at least in our
area that I interact withpersonally that I think they
should be completely proud ofwhat they do, because you know
they're doing what they can doin the situation that they find
(45:52):
themselves in.
Daniel Ettinger (45:57):
But then there's others that I think
could be doing a lot better.
Absolutely, absolutely, yeah,and we're here to support that.
Like that's our goal is toreally help.
Again, like I'll say it as longas I can say it help people,
help animals.
Amy Castro (46:08):
I'll say it as long as I can say it help people,
help animals, yeah, so forsomebody that's listening to
this, how can they learn moreabout SMART and how can they get
involved?
Like I know, it's gearedspecifically towards the
sheltering community for themost part, but, you know, is
there somewhere where peoplecould donate or get involved or
share information, like what doyou want people to do to help
(46:29):
grow this movement?
Daniel Ettinger (46:31):
Well, I think we're still in the infancy
stages.
So you're looking at this andyou're like, you know this is
good, but it would be better ifwe did this.
Shoot me an email.
It's danielkeepithumanecom.
You can go to keepithumanecomtoo.
Forward slash smart and it'llhave some information there.
And I'm really looking forpeople that have the bandwidth
to do more.
(46:51):
Like I can only do so much, butthat is not the ethos of smart.
The ethos of smart is truly acommunity, and so it takes that
community effort.
And so if people have thedesire to want to help more,
create like if there's anonprofit Spain neuter fund that
we can donate to and they wantto work with SMART, like let's
(47:14):
why reinvent the wheel, likelet's just see if they're
willing to work with us.
But I'll, you know, I need, Ineed help with that type of
stuff.
I'm hoping to do a town hallhere in the next few months to
just have a discussion withlike-minded individuals and kind
of.
Again, I don't want to makedecisions in a vacuum, I want
this to be our thing, and so,however, I can help at least get
(47:35):
us to that point.
That's what I want to do.
And then people that want tojoin in and do more.
I'm here for that.
Amy Castro (47:42):
Okay, so tell us about the podcast.
Daniel Ettinger (47:47):
Yeah, so the podcast.
Like you, I was listening toyour episode about your name
change.
Amy Castro (47:53):
Oh, evolution.
Daniel Ettinger (47:57):
We've had three name changes in our existence
of a podcast.
So we started in 2019 as theHumane Roundup.
I had this idea to change thename to the Animal Control
Report in 2021, I think.
And then this year, the startof this year, we landed on Keep
(48:17):
it Humane as the title becausewe were just doing so much more
than just animal control at thatpoint and Keep it Humane kind
of started organically back withthe Humane Roundup.
I used to just say keeping ithumane and that kind of turned
into a tagline.
And so here we are, theevolution of it, almost six
years now, and we talk abouteverything in our industry.
(48:38):
So if you're like a pet ownerand you're listening and you're
like huh, I wonder what animalcontrol does?
There's episodes for that, likehow to get into animal control.
Or, if you like true crime, wehave episodes that are true
crime centric when it comes toanimal crimes.
We have experts on that, haveauthors or work for large
organizations all differentthings but it's related to the
(49:02):
industry, with the hope ofgetting people to understand our
profession more, so they don'tsee us as the dog pound and the
dog catcher.
That was the whole point.
And one thing I want to mentiontoo, is if you're listening and
you've had interactions with ashelter or animal control and
you want to come on to ourpodcast and discuss that, we are
(49:22):
also a forum for that as well.
Amy Castro (49:25):
That's good.
I think it's very niche,however you like to say that.
But that's the beauty of apodcast, I think, is that if
somebody is a lay person andthey're not in the industry,
they can certainly go throughand pull out things.
That would be something thatthey could use, something that
would help educate them withoutnecessarily feeling like they
have to listen to every singleepisode.
It's the same with ours.
(49:45):
I love that people will go andpick around for certain things
that they need.
Daniel Ettinger (49:49):
We're here for it.
Amy Castro (49:50):
Yeah, so is there anything else that we didn't
talk about that you wanted totalk about?
Daniel Ettinger (49:55):
No, I mean, I think at the end of the day, we
just have to continue to workwith each other Like this is
Henry Berg, who started theASPCA back in 18, I want to say
it was 1864.
Amy Castro (50:06):
Now, I feel like.
Daniel Ettinger (50:06):
I'm getting my dates messed up and I'm going to
be embarrassed because I loveHenry Berg.
He didn't do it by himself.
He had a prominent lawyer inNew York City, elbridge Gary,
that helped him get some ofthose things passed.
He worked with judges andpolice officers.
And then you had GeorgeThorndike Angel, who was up in
Massachusetts at the timeworking with Henry Berg from a
(50:28):
distance, and then you hadCaroline Earl White in
Philadelphia.
Like they were all kind ofdoing the same thing, but they
were.
They embraced it Like therewasn't hate like there is today,
and that just blows me away.
I don't know if that's just ourculture as a country.
We're just like we hate.
So it's easier to hate thanrelate.
Make that a shirt.
Amy Castro (50:46):
There you go.
Daniel Ettinger (50:50):
Maybe I'll flip it, though, and say it's better
to relate than hate.
Amy Castro (50:53):
You better copyright that fast, I just did.
Daniel Ettinger (50:55):
We just put it on a podcast.
Publish this thing.
Amy Castro (51:01):
There you go.
It's public, that's rightPublish.
Daniel Ettinger (51:02):
You don't even need to put it on a sticky note
and put it in an envelope andmail it to yourself.
Amy Castro (51:05):
Nah, it's here, it's on Spotify.
I think that's a lesson to belearned for rescue groups too.
It's so siloed, and so usagainst them, and it's like if
we would just pool our resourcesand our energy.
My God, you know what we'daccomplish.
Daniel Ettinger (51:17):
Absolutely no-transcript.
Amy Castro (51:30):
Something going there.
Daniel Ettinger (51:32):
My pleasure, thank you.
Amy Castro (51:34):
If today's episode challenged the way you think
about rescue and sheltering,good, it's time we all stop
chasing numbers and start askingbetter questions.
Learn more about the SMARTapproach at keepithumanecom
forward slash smart.
And don't forget to check withyour local shelter, not just for
a new pet, but to ask howthey're really operating.
(51:56):
If we want better outcomes foranimals, it starts with
transparency, community andmaybe a little less ego.
See you next time.
Thanks for listening to MuddyPaws and Hairballs.
Be sure to visit our website atmuddypawsandhairballscom for
more resources and be sure tofollow this podcast on your
favorite podcast app so you'llnever miss a show.
(52:17):
And hey, if you like this showtext someone right now and say
I've got a podcastrecommendation.
You need to check the show outand tell them to listen and let
you know what they think.
Don't forget to tune in nextweek and every week for a brand
new episode and if you don't doanything else this week, give
your pets a big hug from us.
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If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.