November 24, 2025 • 12 mins
Alex and Amy are joined by NASCIO's program director for enterprise architecture and governace Eric Sweden to discuss the 2025 State CIO Survey sections on data management and cloud services. We also talk Thanksgiving food!
Read the State CIO Survey here: https://www.nascio.org/resource-center/the-2024-state-cio-survey/
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_02 (00:05):
Hi, and welcome to Nasio Voices, where we talk all
things state IT.
I'm Amy Glasscock in Lexington,Kentucky.
SPEAKER_00 (00:11):
And I'm Alex Whitaker in Washington, D.C.
Today we are continuing ourconversation about the findings
from the 2025 State CO Survey.
And here to chat with us aboutboth data management and cloud
services is our program directorfor enterprise architecture and
governance, Eric Sweden.
SPEAKER_02 (00:26):
Eric, welcome back to the podcast and thanks for
taking the time to chat with ustoday.
SPEAKER_01 (00:29):
Always glad to be on the podcast with you two.
Thank you so much for having meback.
SPEAKER_02 (00:33):
You're welcome.
We're happy to have you too.
All right, so we have beentalking about the 2025 State CIO
survey the last couple of weeks.
We talked about generative AIfirst, and then we talked about
IT accessibility and state andlocal collaboration with Kalia
on the last podcast.
So if you're just now findingthis out and you want to hear
those, go back and listen.
And then, you know, this surveyis great because we had 51 state
(00:56):
and territorial CIOs respondthis year, and that means that
the data is pretty strong.
I mean, we usually have prettygood response, but this year is
no exception, maybe even alittle bit higher than usual.
So let's talk about datamanagement first.
Kind of what are your overallthoughts on data management in
the survey?
SPEAKER_01 (01:13):
Well, as we stated in the survey, Amy, data
management has been on the stateCIO top 10 uh strategy
priorities every year since2016.
And now with this massive uptakeof various epochs of AI, data
management is absolutely acornerstone for us.
(01:33):
So AI depends on data, and sodata, data quality, data
management is becoming a highpriority.
Uh, you know, we've addresseddata management in our state CIO
annual surveys ten times.
In comparison, we've addressedcloud, cloud services 12 times,
security 10 times, CIO businessmodels 10 times.
(01:55):
So data management has beenhighly represented in these
annual surveys.
So some trends we've seen, dataisn't just an asset anymore.
We've talked about it as astrategic asset, but it's
becoming more of the enginebehind service transformation.
Gen AI and the various epochs ofAI didn't start the data
(02:17):
conversation, but it hasabsolutely accelerated it.
So the challenge isn't defininggovernance anymore, it's
sustaining it year over year.
We see that in our survey.
States are great at dashboards.
Now we're looking at can theycreate a great capability for
surfacing insights?
So uh we're seeing early datamaturity, but not in every
(02:40):
state.
SPEAKER_00 (02:41):
So the survey shows that data management has risen
to number four on the CO top 10list for 2025, which is pretty
huge.
What's driving that change?
SPEAKER_01 (02:50):
Well, Alex, I think what we're seeing is data
management may be moving from astrategic concept to more of an
operational imperative,particularly with AI.
Uh data management is at numberfour on the top ten for 2025.
It has not been that high since2016, but it has been on the top
(03:11):
10 strategy list every yearstarting in 2016.
So the rise is most likelyheavily driven by generative AI.
States recognize that they can'tresponsibly or effectively
implement AI without strong datagovernance, data quality, data
sharing must be in place.
(03:32):
So the 2025 survey introduces anew uh level of maturity called
very mature on the maturityquestion this year.
Uh only 4% of the states fall inthat bracket, but I think it
signals that we're at thebeginning of a real enterprise
adoption.
20% report their data governanceis mature compared to 27% back
(03:56):
in 2023 when we asked that samequestion.
Maybe there's more criticalevaluation, Alex.
The challenge most states reportisn't lack of vision, it's
sustaining funding andimplementation capacity once
that initial strategy waswritten.
SPEAKER_00 (04:12):
Yeah, no, we have certainly seen challenges in
sustaining funding across theboard, so I get that.
But you know, despite progress,66% of states say they're still
in the beginning stages of datagovernance maturity.
Why is it so hard to move upthat curve?
SPEAKER_01 (04:26):
The biggest challenge isn't getting started,
Alex.
Most states have stood up datastrategies or governance
frameworks.
The hard part is implementationacross agencies, particularly in
highly federated uh situations.
Many states report maturity atthe enterprise planning level,
(04:46):
but uneven execution uh agencyby agency.
That's why the 2025 surveycommentary reflects phrases like
hit or miss or between beginningand mature, because it's
variable.
Also, budget cycles oftensupport planning, but not
long-term sustainment, which canstall momentum.
(05:06):
So it's not a lack of intention,it's a gap in organizational
capacity and consistent fundingto drive change over time.
SPEAKER_02 (05:15):
So the survey does repeat a question from 2023, and
I think it's always interestingto repeat questions and see how
things change over the years.
So it asks uh where states areusing data analytics, and there
were clear increases for fraudanalytics and enhanced
dashboards, clearly two areaswith major growth.
So, what do you think that tellsus about where value is being
(05:37):
created in states?
SPEAKER_01 (05:38):
Amy, dashboards are now used by 94% of states, up
from 80% in 2023.
And fraud prevention jumped to74% from 63% in 2023.
Those numbers tell us thatstates are putting data to work
where there's a clear return.
That is operationalaccountability, risk reduction,
(06:01):
and service improvement.
Fraud is an area where analyticsproduces measurable impact
quickly, so it's no surpriseit's become a high priority.
We're also seeing growth incombining data from multiple
sources.
That's enabling the surfacing ofcorrelations across multiple
lines of business.
Now that's over 60% from 57% in2023, which is foundational for
(06:27):
a whole of citizen service modelmany states are aiming toward.
SPEAKER_02 (06:31):
Okay, that was a good overview of the data side
of things, but you also wroteabout cloud services in the
survey.
So let's move over to cloudservices.
And this is a topic that we'vecovered in a total of 12 annual
surveys, including this one.
Cloud services is number eighton the top 10 for 2025.
It was the number two rankingback in 2013, 2015, 16, 2018,
(06:54):
and 2019.
So cloud is still important andthe conversation has shifted a
bit.
So in the 2025 survey, everyrespondent reports a hybrid
multi-cloud environment.
How different is that from whatyou saw in 2021 and 2023?
SPEAKER_01 (07:10):
Amy, it's a big shift in mindset.
In 2021, we were still debatingcloud first versus cloud smart.
About half the states had acloud smart strategy, and under
20% were still in the cloudfirst posture.
So by 2023, the language hadmoved to hybrid as the default
(07:30):
model, but not everyone hadfully embraced the implications.
Now in 2025, every state in thesurvey describes their
environment as hybrid andmulti-cloud.
You see the terms likedistributed hybrid and cloud
marketplace showing up.
That tells us cloud isn't aone-time migration project
anymore.
(07:51):
It's a continuous exercise inbrokering the right mix of
services across a pretty complexportfolio.
These hybrid portfolios areindeed complex.
We wanted to understand themotivation behind these
expanding portfolios.
Something unique to cloudservices are the invoicing
(08:11):
requirements.
This has prompted whole effortsin managing complex terms and
conditions that can be quitedifferent from one cloud
provider to another,particularly related to
something called reservedinstances.
Reserved instances or committeduse discounts or reservations,
those terms are different withdifferent cloud providers.
(08:33):
Essentially, it's reservedcapacity.
SPEAKER_00 (08:36):
Okay.
We asked state CIOs whatcategories of services or
functions they have migrated tothe cloud.
The top migration categorieshaven't changed much over the
years, but what does the surveytell us about where states are
in their cloud journey now?
SPEAKER_01 (08:49):
Well, the top four categories have been remarkably
consistent, Alex, from 2023 to2025.
Email, calendar, collaborationplatforms, service management,
and project and portfoliomanagement.
These are essentially done inmost states.
The interesting movement islower in the list.
(09:10):
Let's look at those middlecategories like HR and payroll,
ERP, identity, security, citizenrelationship management, and
disaster recovery.
In 2023, those were heavily inthe ongoing and planned buckets.
That's still true in 2025, butyou see a higher completion
rate.
So we're squarely in the phasewhere states are taking on the
(09:32):
big, complex, high-riskworkloads, not just the
low-hanging fruit.
Security is way up from 9% doneto 21%.
Data management from 9% to 21%.
So we know those things aregetting more attention.
By far, most states are movingtoward employing cloud services,
(09:53):
and it's a continuing effort.
You'll see a lot of very heavynumbers in the ongoing as well
as done.
SPEAKER_00 (10:00):
Yeah, awesome.
Um so mainframe as a serviceshows up as its own data point
for the first time in the 2025survey.
What do you think that tells usabout where states are headed
with modernization?
SPEAKER_01 (10:11):
In earlier surveys, we saw mainframe listed among
services in progress or plannedfor cloud migration, but without
a lot of detail.
In 2025, 42% of the statesreport implementing mainframe as
a service.
17 say they are soon or will becompletely off the mainframe.
(10:32):
So states are making decisionsabout what their core
transactional platforms need tolook like in a hybrid cloud
environment.
SPEAKER_02 (10:39):
Well, Eric, I know that was a lot to summarize in a
short amount of time, andthere's even more to see.
If folks want to take a look atthis survey, we'll definitely
put a link in the show notes.
But first, as you know, we can'tlet you go without a quick
session of the lightning round.
This one is a true, this or thatlightning round fast session all
about Thanksgiving.
(11:00):
And we're gonna have fivequestions because it's fast.
Are you ready?
SPEAKER_01 (11:03):
I think I'm ready.
Go ahead.
SPEAKER_02 (11:04):
Okay.
Thanksgiving themed.
Turkey or ham?
SPEAKER_00 (11:08):
Turkey.
Alright.
Mashed potatoes or stuffing, andyou have to pick one forever.
SPEAKER_01 (11:13):
I do?
Okay, well.
SPEAKER_00 (11:16):
Amy wrote a tough one.
SPEAKER_01 (11:18):
Stu uh stuffing then.
SPEAKER_00 (11:20):
Okay.
Yeah, these are not these arethese are dangerous questions,
Amy.
You're really picking a fightwith some of these.
SPEAKER_02 (11:25):
Yeah, speaking of fight, favorite Thanksgiving
dish you'd fight someone for?
SPEAKER_01 (11:29):
Oh, I don't know.
Maybe uh maybe uh fried onionsover beans.
SPEAKER_02 (11:35):
Ooh, okay.
SPEAKER_00 (11:37):
Cranberry sauce, canned or homemade?
SPEAKER_02 (11:39):
Oh, homemade.
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_00 (11:42):
Nice.
SPEAKER_02 (11:42):
And then uh for dessert, pumpkin pie or pecan
pie?
SPEAKER_00 (11:46):
Pumpkin pie all emo.
SPEAKER_02 (11:48):
Mm-hmm.
All right.
SPEAKER_00 (11:50):
All right, those are good.
All right, Eric.
That is our time for today.
I know we are going to have youback in a few weeks to talk to
us about the state CO top 10list for 2026.
And we can't wait to see what itlooks like.
SPEAKER_01 (12:01):
And I join you in that same sentiment.
I'm very interested to see whathappens this year.
Thank you, Alex.
Thank you, Andrew.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_02 (12:07):
Thanks, Eric.
Thanks again for listening toNasio Voices.
Nasio Voices is a production ofthe National Association of
State Chief InformationOfficers, or NASIO.
Learn more at NASIO.org.
SPEAKER_00 (12:18):
And we'll be back with more great state IT content
soon.
Until then, have a greatThanksgiving.
SPEAKER_02 (12:23):
Talk with you soon.
Hi, and welcome to Nasio Voices, where we talk all
things state IT.
I'm Amy Glasscock in Lexington,Kentucky.
SPEAKER_00 (00:11):
And I'm Alex Whitaker in Washington, D.C.
Today we are continuing ourconversation about the findings
from the 2025 State CO Survey.
And here to chat with us aboutboth data management and cloud
services is our program directorfor enterprise architecture and
governance, Eric Sweden.
SPEAKER_02 (00:26):
Eric, welcome back to the podcast and thanks for
taking the time to chat with ustoday.
SPEAKER_01 (00:29):
Always glad to be on the podcast with you two.
Thank you so much for having meback.
SPEAKER_02 (00:33):
You're welcome.
We're happy to have you too.
All right, so we have beentalking about the 2025 State CIO
survey the last couple of weeks.
We talked about generative AIfirst, and then we talked about
IT accessibility and state andlocal collaboration with Kalia
on the last podcast.
So if you're just now findingthis out and you want to hear
those, go back and listen.
And then, you know, this surveyis great because we had 51 state
(00:56):
and territorial CIOs respondthis year, and that means that
the data is pretty strong.
I mean, we usually have prettygood response, but this year is
no exception, maybe even alittle bit higher than usual.
So let's talk about datamanagement first.
Kind of what are your overallthoughts on data management in
the survey?
SPEAKER_01 (01:13):
Well, as we stated in the survey, Amy, data
management has been on the stateCIO top 10 uh strategy
priorities every year since2016.
And now with this massive uptakeof various epochs of AI, data
management is absolutely acornerstone for us.
(01:33):
So AI depends on data, and sodata, data quality, data
management is becoming a highpriority.
Uh, you know, we've addresseddata management in our state CIO
annual surveys ten times.
In comparison, we've addressedcloud, cloud services 12 times,
security 10 times, CIO businessmodels 10 times.
(01:55):
So data management has beenhighly represented in these
annual surveys.
So some trends we've seen, dataisn't just an asset anymore.
We've talked about it as astrategic asset, but it's
becoming more of the enginebehind service transformation.
Gen AI and the various epochs ofAI didn't start the data
(02:17):
conversation, but it hasabsolutely accelerated it.
So the challenge isn't defininggovernance anymore, it's
sustaining it year over year.
We see that in our survey.
States are great at dashboards.
Now we're looking at can theycreate a great capability for
surfacing insights?
So uh we're seeing early datamaturity, but not in every
(02:40):
state.
SPEAKER_00 (02:41):
So the survey shows that data management has risen
to number four on the CO top 10list for 2025, which is pretty
huge.
What's driving that change?
SPEAKER_01 (02:50):
Well, Alex, I think what we're seeing is data
management may be moving from astrategic concept to more of an
operational imperative,particularly with AI.
Uh data management is at numberfour on the top ten for 2025.
It has not been that high since2016, but it has been on the top
(03:11):
10 strategy list every yearstarting in 2016.
So the rise is most likelyheavily driven by generative AI.
States recognize that they can'tresponsibly or effectively
implement AI without strong datagovernance, data quality, data
sharing must be in place.
(03:32):
So the 2025 survey introduces anew uh level of maturity called
very mature on the maturityquestion this year.
Uh only 4% of the states fall inthat bracket, but I think it
signals that we're at thebeginning of a real enterprise
adoption.
20% report their data governanceis mature compared to 27% back
(03:56):
in 2023 when we asked that samequestion.
Maybe there's more criticalevaluation, Alex.
The challenge most states reportisn't lack of vision, it's
sustaining funding andimplementation capacity once
that initial strategy waswritten.
SPEAKER_00 (04:12):
Yeah, no, we have certainly seen challenges in
sustaining funding across theboard, so I get that.
But you know, despite progress,66% of states say they're still
in the beginning stages of datagovernance maturity.
Why is it so hard to move upthat curve?
SPEAKER_01 (04:26):
The biggest challenge isn't getting started,
Alex.
Most states have stood up datastrategies or governance
frameworks.
The hard part is implementationacross agencies, particularly in
highly federated uh situations.
Many states report maturity atthe enterprise planning level,
(04:46):
but uneven execution uh agencyby agency.
That's why the 2025 surveycommentary reflects phrases like
hit or miss or between beginningand mature, because it's
variable.
Also, budget cycles oftensupport planning, but not
long-term sustainment, which canstall momentum.
(05:06):
So it's not a lack of intention,it's a gap in organizational
capacity and consistent fundingto drive change over time.
SPEAKER_02 (05:15):
So the survey does repeat a question from 2023, and
I think it's always interestingto repeat questions and see how
things change over the years.
So it asks uh where states areusing data analytics, and there
were clear increases for fraudanalytics and enhanced
dashboards, clearly two areaswith major growth.
So, what do you think that tellsus about where value is being
(05:37):
created in states?
SPEAKER_01 (05:38):
Amy, dashboards are now used by 94% of states, up
from 80% in 2023.
And fraud prevention jumped to74% from 63% in 2023.
Those numbers tell us thatstates are putting data to work
where there's a clear return.
That is operationalaccountability, risk reduction,
(06:01):
and service improvement.
Fraud is an area where analyticsproduces measurable impact
quickly, so it's no surpriseit's become a high priority.
We're also seeing growth incombining data from multiple
sources.
That's enabling the surfacing ofcorrelations across multiple
lines of business.
Now that's over 60% from 57% in2023, which is foundational for
(06:27):
a whole of citizen service modelmany states are aiming toward.
SPEAKER_02 (06:31):
Okay, that was a good overview of the data side
of things, but you also wroteabout cloud services in the
survey.
So let's move over to cloudservices.
And this is a topic that we'vecovered in a total of 12 annual
surveys, including this one.
Cloud services is number eighton the top 10 for 2025.
It was the number two rankingback in 2013, 2015, 16, 2018,
(06:54):
and 2019.
So cloud is still important andthe conversation has shifted a
bit.
So in the 2025 survey, everyrespondent reports a hybrid
multi-cloud environment.
How different is that from whatyou saw in 2021 and 2023?
SPEAKER_01 (07:10):
Amy, it's a big shift in mindset.
In 2021, we were still debatingcloud first versus cloud smart.
About half the states had acloud smart strategy, and under
20% were still in the cloudfirst posture.
So by 2023, the language hadmoved to hybrid as the default
(07:30):
model, but not everyone hadfully embraced the implications.
Now in 2025, every state in thesurvey describes their
environment as hybrid andmulti-cloud.
You see the terms likedistributed hybrid and cloud
marketplace showing up.
That tells us cloud isn't aone-time migration project
anymore.
(07:51):
It's a continuous exercise inbrokering the right mix of
services across a pretty complexportfolio.
These hybrid portfolios areindeed complex.
We wanted to understand themotivation behind these
expanding portfolios.
Something unique to cloudservices are the invoicing
(08:11):
requirements.
This has prompted whole effortsin managing complex terms and
conditions that can be quitedifferent from one cloud
provider to another,particularly related to
something called reservedinstances.
Reserved instances or committeduse discounts or reservations,
those terms are different withdifferent cloud providers.
(08:33):
Essentially, it's reservedcapacity.
SPEAKER_00 (08:36):
Okay.
We asked state CIOs whatcategories of services or
functions they have migrated tothe cloud.
The top migration categorieshaven't changed much over the
years, but what does the surveytell us about where states are
in their cloud journey now?
SPEAKER_01 (08:49):
Well, the top four categories have been remarkably
consistent, Alex, from 2023 to2025.
Email, calendar, collaborationplatforms, service management,
and project and portfoliomanagement.
These are essentially done inmost states.
The interesting movement islower in the list.
(09:10):
Let's look at those middlecategories like HR and payroll,
ERP, identity, security, citizenrelationship management, and
disaster recovery.
In 2023, those were heavily inthe ongoing and planned buckets.
That's still true in 2025, butyou see a higher completion
rate.
So we're squarely in the phasewhere states are taking on the
(09:32):
big, complex, high-riskworkloads, not just the
low-hanging fruit.
Security is way up from 9% doneto 21%.
Data management from 9% to 21%.
So we know those things aregetting more attention.
By far, most states are movingtoward employing cloud services,
(09:53):
and it's a continuing effort.
You'll see a lot of very heavynumbers in the ongoing as well
as done.
SPEAKER_00 (10:00):
Yeah, awesome.
Um so mainframe as a serviceshows up as its own data point
for the first time in the 2025survey.
What do you think that tells usabout where states are headed
with modernization?
SPEAKER_01 (10:11):
In earlier surveys, we saw mainframe listed among
services in progress or plannedfor cloud migration, but without
a lot of detail.
In 2025, 42% of the statesreport implementing mainframe as
a service.
17 say they are soon or will becompletely off the mainframe.
(10:32):
So states are making decisionsabout what their core
transactional platforms need tolook like in a hybrid cloud
environment.
SPEAKER_02 (10:39):
Well, Eric, I know that was a lot to summarize in a
short amount of time, andthere's even more to see.
If folks want to take a look atthis survey, we'll definitely
put a link in the show notes.
But first, as you know, we can'tlet you go without a quick
session of the lightning round.
This one is a true, this or thatlightning round fast session all
about Thanksgiving.
(11:00):
And we're gonna have fivequestions because it's fast.
Are you ready?
SPEAKER_01 (11:03):
I think I'm ready.
Go ahead.
SPEAKER_02 (11:04):
Okay.
Thanksgiving themed.
Turkey or ham?
SPEAKER_00 (11:08):
Turkey.
Alright.
Mashed potatoes or stuffing, andyou have to pick one forever.
SPEAKER_01 (11:13):
I do?
Okay, well.
SPEAKER_00 (11:16):
Amy wrote a tough one.
SPEAKER_01 (11:18):
Stu uh stuffing then.
SPEAKER_00 (11:20):
Okay.
Yeah, these are not these arethese are dangerous questions,
Amy.
You're really picking a fightwith some of these.
SPEAKER_02 (11:25):
Yeah, speaking of fight, favorite Thanksgiving
dish you'd fight someone for?
SPEAKER_01 (11:29):
Oh, I don't know.
Maybe uh maybe uh fried onionsover beans.
SPEAKER_02 (11:35):
Ooh, okay.
SPEAKER_00 (11:37):
Cranberry sauce, canned or homemade?
SPEAKER_02 (11:39):
Oh, homemade.
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_00 (11:42):
Nice.
SPEAKER_02 (11:42):
And then uh for dessert, pumpkin pie or pecan
pie?
SPEAKER_00 (11:46):
Pumpkin pie all emo.
SPEAKER_02 (11:48):
Mm-hmm.
All right.
SPEAKER_00 (11:50):
All right, those are good.
All right, Eric.
That is our time for today.
I know we are going to have youback in a few weeks to talk to
us about the state CO top 10list for 2026.
And we can't wait to see what itlooks like.
SPEAKER_01 (12:01):
And I join you in that same sentiment.
I'm very interested to see whathappens this year.
Thank you, Alex.
Thank you, Andrew.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_02 (12:07):
Thanks, Eric.
Thanks again for listening toNasio Voices.
Nasio Voices is a production ofthe National Association of
State Chief InformationOfficers, or NASIO.
Learn more at NASIO.org.
SPEAKER_00 (12:18):
And we'll be back with more great state IT content
soon.
Until then, have a greatThanksgiving.
SPEAKER_02 (12:23):
Talk with you soon.
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