July 7, 2024 • 45 mins
In this episode of the Neuroscience Meets Social and Emotional Learning podcast, host Andrea Samadi revisits a profound interview with Dr. Wallace J. Nichols, the author of the best-selling book "Blue Mind." Dr. Nichols delves into the fascinating connection between our brains and water, inspired by his extensive research and personal experiences.
Andrea reflects on Dr. Nichols' groundbreaking work, which explores how being near, in, on, or underwater can enhance our happiness, health, and overall well-being. This episode covers the origins of the Blue Mind theory, its scientific backing, and practical ways to apply it in daily life to combat stress, anxiety, and burnout.
As we honor Dr. Nichols' legacy, Andrea encourages listeners to practice Blue Mind, understand their personal connection to water, and extend this healing practice to others. Tune in to discover how the magical and mysterious connection to water can transform our lives.
On today's episode #338 we will revisit a previous interview #297[i] from last summer to remember the author of the best-selling book, Blue Mind, Dr. Wallace J. Nichols, who made such an impact on the world with his Blue Mind Movement, and is no longer with us today. While this is a difficult episode to write, I know it’s an important one as I could use the tips I know we are going to cover myself at the moment. I’m also sure there are others in the world who could benefit from revisiting the surprising science that shows how being near, in, on, or under water can make you happier, healthier more connected and better at what you do. I could have left this episode until a later date, even closed to World Blue Mind Day coming up July 23rd (later this month) as I stared at a blank document and the words just wouldn’t come out. Then when I finally did start writing, last month, the document was erased, so it just must not have been the right words. Or maybe this episode was meant to be written near the ocean as I’m sitting next to the Gulf of Mexico, while writing this. Or maybe even written from the point of view, of being under the water, looking around, and up, to “see” what can be felt deeply with this mysterious brain/mind connection.
Before sitting down to write this episode, I noticed sea turtles swimming around in the ocean, up close to us, and everyone mentioned how rare this was. I just kept thinking of Dr. Nichols telling me (in our interview this time last year) that he studied sea turtles for 30 years, and remembered him mentioning that he was hoping someone else more qualified (like Dr. Oliver Sachs) would write the book he wanted to write, connecting the deep mysterious ocean with the intricacies of our brain.
While revisiting our interview, I wondered:
- What else could we learn from Dr. Nichols that we might have missed the first time? You know when you read a good book twice you always see something new. This is because you’ve changed since the first time, and you bring new experiences with you. I wonder what doors this second look would open for all of us?
How can I improve my own Blue Mind Practice? Dr. Nichols mentioned that even if we are doing ok, practicing Blue Mind could still help us, but for those people who are in Red Mind (feeling anxious) this practice could save your life. It’s another tool to add to our tool kit to prevent us from reaching Grey Mind (or Burn out).
How can revisiting this episode help others close to me (starting with my own family) helping them to practice Blue Mind in our daily lives? Also not being afraid of the hardest science in the room (our emotions) and keep talking openly about our feelings, and to not be afraid to reach out to others if we feel Red Mind or anxious thoughts.
How can we highlight Dr. Nichols’ work so that we ALL can do what he suggests we do, by finding “our water, pay attention to how it feels and the
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Now it's time to update my grandfather's words by explaining them and by doing
so, changing our understanding of our place on the planet, who we are,
and what goes on inside and between us.
It's about reconnecting our sense of self and our soul with our waterways and oceans.
(00:21):
It's about finding our creativity, clarity, and confidence in our deep blue
minds. That's from Celine Cousteau, who opens up Wallace J.
Nichols' Blue Mind book with a fascinating look into the depths of the ocean,
reminding us of the words that meant the most of her grandfather,
(00:41):
the great Jacques Cousteau. He said.
Music.
Yeah, so there's two enormous realms that are still largely unexplored.
(01:07):
The human brain consciousness and how it all works.
The human nervous system, not just the brain, by the way. And the interactions
between our nervous systems.
Still very mysterious. We're learning a lot very quickly.
And then the ocean, largely unexplored, largely unvisited, especially the deeper parts.
(01:29):
And i thought wow
the the most complex thing in the universe our nervous
system meets the single most
important feature of life on earth the water that could be interesting if we
put those two things together and and initially i thought that that had probably
(01:49):
been done and all i needed to do was go check the book out of the library and
i would enjoy reading it on a beach somewhere or by by a pool.
And I couldn't find that book, you know, your brain on water.
There were books about your brain on happiness and your brain on stress and
your brain on creativity and neuroplasticity,
your brain on music, some great books, but there was very little and no book
(02:14):
about your brain on this ubiquitous substance called water.
And so I really wanted to read it, this book that didn't exist.
So, I tried to convince some people that they should write it.
And I was very unsuccessful at that.
And came down to this guy, one of my intellectual heroes, Dr.
(02:37):
Oliver Sacks, who had written many books about the brain and the mind and behavior,
the late great neurologist, Dr. Oliver Sacks, water lover, music lover,
lover of life, amazing writer, big-minded thinker.
And I thought, wow, he should write this book about the brain on water.
And I would love to read it after he writes it. And I pitched the idea to him
(03:00):
and he said, it's a fine idea. You do it.
Welcome back to season 12 of the Neuroscience Meets Social and Emotional Learning podcast,
where we connect the science-based evidence behind social and emotional learning
and and emotional intelligence training for improved well-being, achievement,
(03:24):
productivity, and results using what I saw as the missing link since we weren't
taught this when we were growing up in school, the application of practical neuroscience.
I'm Andrea Samadi, an author and an educator with a passion for learning and
launched this podcast six years ago with the goal of bringing all the leading
(03:48):
experts together in one place to help us to apply this evidence-based research to our daily lives.
On today's episode number 338, we'll revisit a previous interview,
number 297, from last summer to remember the author of the best-selling book, Blue Mind, Dr.
(04:15):
Wallace J. Nichols, who made such an impact on the world with his Blue Mind
movement, and he's sadly no longer here with us today.
While this is a difficult episode to write, I know it's an important one as
I personally could use the tips that I know we're going to cover myself at the moment.
(04:35):
And I'm also sure that there are others in the world who could benefit from
revisiting the surprising science that shows how being near,
in, on, or underwater can make you happier, healthier,
more connected, and better at what you do.
I could have left this episode until a later date, even closer to World Blue
(04:59):
Mind Day coming up July 23rd, later this month, as I stared at a blank document
and the words just wouldn't come out.
Then when I finally did start writing this last month, the document was erased,
so it just might not have been the right words.
Or maybe this episode was meant to be written near the ocean as I wrote it sitting
(05:22):
next to the Gulf of Mexico.
Or maybe even written from the point of view of being in the water or under
the water and looking up to see what can be felt deeply with this mysterious
brain-mind connection that Dr. Nichols discovered.
Before sitting down to write this episode, I noticed that sea turtles were swimming
(05:47):
around in the ocean, and they were coming up close to us, and everyone was mentioning how rare this was.
And I just kept thinking of Dr. Nichols telling me in our interview,
this time last year, that he studied sea turtles for 30 years.
And I remember him mentioning that he was hoping someone else more qualified, like Dr.
(06:09):
Oliver Sacks, would write this important book that he wanted to write,
Connecting the Deep Mysterious Ocean with the Integracies of Our Brain.
While revisiting our interview, I wondered, what else could we learn from Dr.
Nichols that we might have missed the first time? You know when you read a good
(06:30):
book twice, you always see something new.
This is because you've changed since the first time, and you bring new experiences with you.
And I wonder what doors this second look would open up for all of us.
Then I thought, how could I improve my own blue mind practice?
Dr. Nichols mentioned that even if we're doing okay, practicing blue mind could still help us.
(06:55):
But for those people who are in red mind, they're feeling anxious,
this practice could save your life.
It's another tool to add to our toolkit.
To prevent us from reaching gray mind or burnout.
Then I thought, how can revisiting this episode help others close to me,
starting with my own family,
(07:17):
helping them to practice blue mind in our daily lives, and also not being afraid
of the hardest science in the room, our emotions,
and keep talking openly about our feelings, and to not be afraid to reach out
to others if we feel red mind or anxious thought.
Then I thought, how can we highlight Dr.
(07:40):
Nichols' work so we can all do what he suggests we do by finding our water,
pay attention to how it feels,
and then take someone else with you to experience the deep mysteries felt with
this blue mind that's backed by science.
Knowing our interview was an important one,
(08:00):
I watched the YouTube version for the third time this week, writing more notes
on top of previous notes to see if I could dig deeper into the meaning of the
words of wisdom covered in our first interview.
So let's go back and revisit this important interview with marine biologist and author Dr.
(08:21):
Wallace J. Nichols to see if we can take our own practice of blue mind to the next level.
Now, we opened up our interview when I recalled standing next to the bluest
water I've seen in Turks and Caicos last summer of 2023, just prior to our interview.
(08:43):
I remember our bags were packed and we were just leaving our hotel room to return
when I was introduced to Dr.
Nichols via email after experiencing some of the most magical memories that
our family has ever felt near the water. Dr.
Nichols recalls those turquoise waters, saying he knew them well,
(09:05):
and we would return home as a family, not knowing we would all need Dr.
Nichols' Blue Mind Theory later this summer ourselves.
It's easy to see these things looking backwards, but the dots had not connected
forward yet, just like Steve Jobs' famous Stanford commencement speech. Beach.
I knew this was an important interview for myself as well as for others.
(09:31):
We open up this interview with my introduction about Dr.
Nichols and how the forward to his book, Blue Mind, was written by Celine Cousteau,
one of the daughters of the great Jacques Cousteau, who wrestles with explaining
the awe and wonder of our oceans and waterways.
She said, should we leave it or dive in and explain it?
(09:54):
Jacques Cousteau would dive in, so she decides to do the same and says it's
about reconnecting our sense of self and soul with our waterways and oceans.
It's about finding creativity, clarity, and confidence in our deep blue minds.
Next, I asked Dr. Nichols to share some of the meaning behind Celine Cousteau's
(10:17):
words in the foreword, and he shared that she's connected her background in
psychology to these deep words.
But in Selene's Forward, she kind of wrestles with the idea of explaining the
magic, explaining the awe and the wonder, and whether we really should.
Should we just leave it in the realm of poetry and magic, or should we dive
(10:42):
in as scientists and explore it? And I, of course, am on the side of diving in and exploring.
And so she, in her beautifully written foreword, comes to the conclusion that
her grandfather would dive into blue mind science.
So therefore, let's do it.
And I thought it really was a great opening to that exploration and what has
(11:10):
kind of flowed since she wrote that. Then I asked Dr.
Nichols about how he made the brain-water connection, and I loved his answer.
He was hoping that someone else would publish Blue Mind.
He searched all over the place for this book, Your Brain on Water,
and pitched this book idea to Dr.
(11:30):
Oliver Sacks. And he was told over and over again, this is your book to write.
And I understood why he kept looking for this book. From my point of view,
I'm a former teacher from Toronto trying to make sense of how our brain impacts
our future results, specifically as it relates to learning.
(11:51):
I remember writing the idea for this podcast down and connecting neuroscience
to social-emotional learning, and then I almost hid this idea from others in the beginning.
I'm not a neuroscientist or anything-ist, but there was a time when I was told, just like Dr.
Nichols, you need to make the neuroscience education connection.
(12:13):
And I was handed a ton of books to read, and I remember thinking,
this is too hard for me, but did it anyway.
I was determined to learn more about our brain and learning and paid people
smarter than me to explain the concepts that I couldn't grasp.
Slowly but surely, I began to understand how our brain learned something new,
(12:35):
which is why I was so impressed when Dr.
Nichols wrote the book anyway, connecting the nervous system that we're still
making deeper discoveries with to the largely unexplored bodies of water like the ocean.
He connected top neuroscientists to those who understood the mysteries within the depths of the ocean.
(12:58):
He says himself that it took him some time explaining to me that he's a marine
biologist who studied sea turtles for 30 years, and I understood what he was saying.
He noted, I'm not a neuropsychologist. I just came in the side door.
He did the work needed to put his theory together because he knew he had to
(13:20):
do this, And what he created continues to gain momentum over the years.
He started a movement, the Blue Mind Movement, with a book that he knew he had to write.
And it proved that we can all make the brain-water connection to become happier,
healthier, more connected, and better at what we do.
(13:43):
I had a lot to learn, talked to a lot of people, attended a lot of conferences,
listened to a lot of courses and podcasts, etc.
Read a lot of books to kind of put this theory together.
I was amazed at the research held in the pages of this book.
I had to ask how he did it, and his answer just blew me away. way, Dr.
(14:05):
Nichols talked about how they held these Blue Mind Summits where they connected
leading experts in neuroscience,
like neuroscientist Howard Fields, to those who use these principles in their
lives around water, like pioneering top wave surfer Jeff Clark,
or those who use this magical connection to water to overcome addiction.
(14:27):
And they were asked one question that they would answer from their specific
point of view, like making the connection with dopamine in our brain and surfing
something that had never been done before.
And this is where true learning begins, almost like connecting peanut butter
to chocolate to create the Reese's Peanut Butter Cup.
(14:49):
Even though Dr. Nichols mentions that no one would fund this idea,
he knew it had to be done, and he did it.
He mentions Dr. Dan Siegel often in Blue Mind, and he was looking for anyone
who knew the science to help make this brain-on-water connection.
And sometimes I forget what questions I ask on interviews.
(15:11):
The questions just come out of me. And if you know me, I'm like this in real life.
I remember someone close to me saying that meeting me for the first time was like a job interview.
I'm so curious, and I'll just ask so many questions that you'll leave the conversation
wondering, why so many questions?
Now, I forgot that I'd mentioned my fascination with surfing at the north shore of Hawaii to Dr.
(15:35):
Nichols until I rewatched our interview, but I just never really understood it.
I would stand there, and it was very obvious. What's wrong with me?
I'm staring staring at the water and not really getting it.
Hollywood does Blue Mind really well, with all the movies bringing water to
life, and television has mastered this topic.
(15:57):
Until this weekend, I had no idea that the American animated TV series Spongebob
was created by a marine scientist educator and animator,
and it was the highest-rating Nickelodeon series and the most profitable,
generating over $13 billion in merchandising revenue.
So why did Hollywood film and television producers see something that didn't
(16:23):
reach those who protect our oceans?
This is what motivated Dr. Nichols to keep talking to those who could help him
to make this brain-on-water connection.
Since writing Blue Mind, Dr. Nichols mentioned that there were hundreds more
organizations organizations dedicated to saving our oceans, but more work needs to be done here.
(16:43):
And I do feel a personal responsibility to continue to spread Dr.
Nichols' work and his Blue Mind Theory and keep it in the forefront of our minds.
And by question two of our interview, I was already asking Dr.
Nichols, why am I mesmerized by the ocean?
And sharing how I felt this connection to the Billabong pipe master section
(17:06):
of the North Shore in Hawaii, and he looked at me with deep understanding.
And it was here that I knew he understood what I was feeling as I was starting
to understand his blue mine theory.
I just couldn't put it into words. There's something magical about being around
water, and I've felt it for years.
(17:28):
I asked Dr. Wallace, why are so many people fascinated with the ocean and the secrets that it holds.
And he reassured me this was common, and he hears this all the time.
I thought that if I felt this way, how many others listening also feel this fascination.
And when he said that many people feel this way and were not alone,
(17:51):
I felt my emotions coming through.
Finally, someone telling me what I feel around water is common.
I felt understood at a whole new level. He said maybe everyone feels this connection,
and it might not only be the ocean.
It could be a puddle or even frozen water.
Now Dr. Nichols is catching my attention, and I can't look away.
(18:13):
As he listed all the sources of Blue Mind, my awareness is expanding.
I had no idea there were so many ways to connect to water, and his words and
calm voice were transporting me to what he calls virtual water.
And that's very common. I hear that a lot.
(18:35):
One of the most common comments I hear from people is, I felt this way my whole
life, but I didn't know what it was.
And many times people feel like it's just them who are mesmerized.
And it turns out we're not alone.
It may be everyone that has some version of a blue mind feeling.
(19:00):
And it's not always the ocean. It's all water. And it could be a puddle that you're stomping in.
It could be rain falling from the sky. It could be frozen water.
We call that ice and snow.
It could be fog and clouds and mist.
It could be a giant Pacific Ocean. It could be a little creek or a little fountain
on your desk. or a fountain downtown or a shower or a bath, a swimming pool.
(19:25):
The list is long of all the sources of Blue Mind, but it does it and it does
it. There's a continuum.
So you've got the vast Pacific Ocean with the waves.
Then you've got the smaller, more sublime
versions that might just be a beautiful poem
by Pablo Neruda about the ocean that just touches on that feeling and it transports
(19:51):
you through what I call virtual water in the form of a poem or a piece of art
and artwork or a photograph or a song.
So I think we all need to understand our own blue minds.
That's like step one, that 8 billion people understand what we're talking about here.
(20:12):
That they understand that there's science to back it up it's
a feeling it's a set of emotions it's an emotional response
to water but there's science
to explain it and so you understand your
blue mind and then you have access
to it and then you practice you should mindfully practice blue mind throughout
(20:33):
your life so when you're super stressed and i yeah pause before i said that
because I am often these days and I think everybody else is for a variety of reasons.
Go to the water. There are lots of techniques that help with anxiety and stress and burnout.
One of them is just go to the water.
(20:56):
Listen to the water, get in the water, float on it, a shower,
let that water bang on the back of your neck, go for a swim,
just sit by the edge of it and look at it, read your book by the water.
And make that a regular part of your emotional toolkit.
And I think if we do that, if we make it common knowledge, which is my goal,
(21:20):
is to make Blue Mind common knowledge and common practice,
I think we transform well-being and wellness, but we also transform our ability
to protect and restore the waters themselves.
Both of those things, I think, are outcomes. comes. So I get pretty motivated
and excited, even through the ups and downs of life, to keep going with sharing
(21:45):
this and having conversations like that.
Now that we know what Blue Mind is, it's a feeling and it's a fascination that
we might all feel around water,
how do we now apply it and make use of it in our lives to become happier,
healthier, more connected, and better at what we do.
Dr. Nichols directs us to step one of this process, where he says that we first
(22:10):
of all must understand our own blue mind.
I know that I'm more creative around water. I know my kids have always loved
swimming in the ocean or swimming pools.
What about you? How do you feel around water?
Have you ever stood mesmerized looking at water or ice, or fog,
and wondered what was capturing your attention.
(22:31):
I hope that you feel some sort of reassurance that this is something Dr.
Nichols would hear all the time.
So now what's next? What do we do with this blue mind?
Step two, mindfully practice blue mind in your life.
When you are in what Dr. Nichols calls red mind, when you're anxious or super
(22:53):
stressed, he says go to the water, get in the water, float on the water,
sit by the water, read your book by the water.
Practice this evidence-based method that can help transform you to a better
place and make this a part of your emotional toolkit. kit.
Dr. Nichols had a goal to make this common knowledge to transform well-being
(23:18):
and wellness while also transforming our ability to protect these waters.
And then it happened, and I'm no longer afraid to feel these deep emotions.
It happens all the time when I'm connecting with others at the heart level,
whether it's during interviews or in real life, and I know Dr.
Nichols could see it, let alone feel it. My eyes started to tear up,
(23:43):
and I had to ask, why do some of us feel so emotional around water?
I knew he understood what I was trying to ask him, and I loved his answer.
He said when we're in the water, we're vulnerable.
Our armor fades away. We access connection, curiosity, compassion to each other,
(24:04):
to ourselves, and to the water. He reminded me that it's a place for reflection,
deep reflection, deep thought.
And I love when I feel comfortable enough to be my whole self with someone else.
It's an incredible place to be.
No need to pretend or hide or be someone I'm not.
Just exist and be 100% myself.
(24:26):
This is how I feel around water. And this inspires my writing,
deeper thoughts, and my desire to connect and keep learning.
Well, when we're in the water, we're vulnerable.
And the water puts us in a place where the chatter that kind of protects us,
(24:50):
the barriers that kind of protect us from life, the armor that we put on, starts fading away.
And we access creativity, we access compassion and curiosity and connection
to each other and to the water itself and to ourselves.
And it's a
(25:12):
place for reflection deep reflection and deep
thought and always has been throughout all throughout all human history throughout
all traditions throughout all sacred texts you will find blue mind i've looked
everywhere i look i find it it's this is not a new idea It's actually one of the oldest ideas,
(25:35):
in fact, that water soothes our soul.
That's the 23rd Psalm in the Old Testament written by King James 3,000 years ago.
Having a bad day, get down to the water, it will soothe your soul. That's my paraphrase.
Not a new idea, a deeply ancient concept.
Dr. Nichols reminds us that water soothes the soul.
(25:59):
And this is written in the Bible over 3,000 years ago.
Having a bad day, he says, get down to the water. It will soothe your soul.
This is a deeply ancient concept, and Dr.
Nichols explains the scientific connection to why this happens in his book.
His research goes deep into the water-brain connection.
(26:22):
We make some of our best memories on the water, near the water,
with the people we care about. This is true.
In your mind, think about the photos you take.
How many photos do you have of those you love that have water associated with
them? And it doesn't need to be the deep blue ocean.
It could be frozen water, ice, or even fog.
(26:45):
We have our deepest thoughts around water. And I know this to be true for me.
It doesn't have to be the bluest oceans.
Sometimes on rare, cooler days while hiking in the mountains,
we can see fog here in Arizona, and it always stops me in my tracks.
I never thought of this as Blue Mind until reflecting on Dr. Nichols' words.
(27:07):
We have our nostalgia around water. We learn a lot.
We reflect a lot. Our world is simplified around water.
Our brain shifts to a different place, a place that Dr.
Nichols refers to as blue mind.
And all of this opens up our emotions, sad things, happy things.
(27:27):
We grieve at the water. Many of us cry in the shower. But don't forget that water soothes the soul.
And then I wondered what Dr. Nichols discovered when he measured his brain in
the water, and his response showed me how far technology has come.
They went from their prototype cap with wires to now where he said we can measure
(27:49):
our brain waves without wires while surfing, kayaking, floating, or swimming.
And I'd love to try this and measure my brain on water.
He says if you want to go do your own research, go to Google Scholar and type
in blue mind, blue health, or blue space into the search bar so you can learn
(28:09):
more about blue mind theory.
And then Dr. Nichols explains what happens to our brain while swimming versus
floating when we're still.
He shares Dr. Feinstein's research, who would say that our brains go into delta
waves much deeper than theta when we're floating.
And then he says standing by a lake will give us this meditative state,
(28:32):
but most people who've not done this before might not stay there for two hours
or more, or they might think that meditation is boring.
So to overcome this, Dr. Nichols suggests you can put a fishing pole in their
hand, and they might stick around the lake just a bit longer than usual.
So then I had to ask, how do we use Blue Mind to become more self-aware?
(28:56):
And Dr. Nichols explains that when we're in crisis of any kind,
in red mind, when we feel anxious or urgency, our thinking narrows and we might
feel panic, which could be useful at times.
It can help us, but it also, when it's triggered all the time,
can lead us to gray mind and will eventually burn us out.
(29:18):
So we must learn to rest, relax, breathe to gain perspective,
learn to pause to see things from a new angle.
Take a more compassionate approach.
And he says you might appreciate the opponent better or learn to understand yourself better.
This helps with problem solving and thinking.
(29:38):
Yeah. And so you could say standing by water, standing by a lake will help you meditate and relax.
Well, most people are going to say, okay, I'll go stand by the lake for a few
minutes, but I'm not going to stand by the lake for two hours and meditate.
I get bored and people have a hard time with that.
So you put a fishing pole in their hand.
(29:59):
And now you're standing by the lake with a fishing pole in your hand staring at the water.
Maybe there's a bobber at the end if you're fishing with worms or bait.
Maybe you're using a lure or you're a fly fisher person.
And then it's not meditation, and it's not quote-unquote boring,
(30:19):
and people have an on-ramp to say, okay,
like your previous interviewee said, fishing is my meditation. Yes, it is.
Let's not call it anything else. That's what it is.
And it also may be a source of social interaction, and it may be a physical
(30:42):
activity. It may also be a way to get protein into your life.
And then when you can't get to the water, think about water with your own imagination.
We don't need to go to that turquoise water on the other side of the world.
Blue Scription, he calls it, is doing blue mind wherever you are.
(31:04):
And I explained to Dr. Nichols in our interview that when we left the deep blue
ocean and returned home, I had completely forgotten about all the types of water
that we have available to us in Arizona,
where we say we're landlocked. And then Dr.
Nichols opened my mind up and uncovered a way that we can all find water.
(31:26):
He says, begin with wild waters. Start with wild waters, a river, lakes, or oceans.
Then go to domestic water, like a swimming pool, or a tub, or a spa or a shower.
Put a candle in a bathroom, he suggests.
Then find urban water, fountains to sit or walk by, or virtual water,
(31:48):
which is poetry, songs, recordings, or water apps.
Then he says make your own recordings or videos of water to replay later,
reminding us that we all have an abundance of water, even those like me who
thought were landlocked in Arizona. persona. So.
Kayaking, there are all kinds of activities, skipping stones,
(32:11):
bird watching, beach combing.
All these activities have at least a mildly meditative aspect that we need.
And so for people who struggle with meditation, you know, sort of the sit quietly
and cross your legs and close your eyes, blue mind is an on-ramp.
(32:32):
And it doesn't mean you can't also meditate, but the water meditates us, does some of the work.
And I think that's a good thing. And when I asked Dr.
Nichols about our emotions or why so many people prefer to leave them out of
the conversation, he reminds me that our emotions are the hardest science in the room.
(32:55):
The science of emotion is rigorous and complex. flex.
He's now fully aware that science backs up our emotional side,
and he knows when this side is ignored, it's usually from people who are just
not aware of the vast amounts of science behind our emotions.
His answer made me feel more comfortable with the fact I know I can feel deeply
(33:17):
and not be afraid of this.
I'll just keep learning to understand this difficult science,
and I'm grateful I've had this once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to sit down and speak with with Dr.
Nichols, who opened up my awareness to a whole new level.
I think the water always helps, you know? Just think about it in your own life.
(33:40):
Like, if I'm feeling a little edgy in it, just take a bath.
It doesn't solve all your problems, but it pauses them and it gives you perspective,
which may help you solve your problems.
Or take a walk by the water. Go spend some time in nature.
And I'm very ecumenical about water, all of its forms. Most plants are up to 90% water.
(34:05):
So that counts. Go outside. Be with the water-based life in nature.
Be with the lakes and the rivers and the creeks. and let
your let your mind move into that
that better place for for problem solving and for for thinking self-awareness
is a big part of it notice you know how that works while it's happening that's
(34:31):
always good because then you are likely to do it again if it works well for you.
So that's that's kind of how that that fits together
but the red mind and the gray mind and
the blue mind those are those are useful it's a
cartoon terminology over simplification i'll
admit a very complex neurochemistry and
(34:54):
psychology but people have a hard time talking about their emotional well-being
so if we can color code it and i can say hey i've been feeling too much red
mind i'm slipping into gray mind i need to get some blue mind you know what i'm talking about out,
but I'm not using the scary language that I don't want in my permanent file at,
(35:18):
work about depression and anxiety and burnout and any of that.
I can approach it in maybe a lighter way, but in a useful way.
I think that's a good thing. When I asked Dr. Nichols about what had impacted
him the most over the years with his study, it was all about helping others.
(35:39):
I know his work in blue mind theory can save someone's life.
If you're struggling with a red mind yourself, it will help you to find peace.
And once you've gone from red mind to blue mind and you're in a good place,
reach your hand out to help others get through their day.
Dr. Nichols reminds us that we all know someone who's sitting on their couch,
(36:01):
not sure what the point is, and urges us to go find them and take them to the
water of some sort, wherever it is.
Take them fishing, he says, but he says go find your water.
Practice blue mind ourselves and then take someone else with you,
reminding us that water gives us peace of mind And at the end of this interview,
(36:25):
I felt a deep connection to Dr.
Nichols, so much so that when I stopped recording, I couldn't stop the tears.
I felt his heart and years of work with his blue mind theory and was moved to such a deep level.
He understood what I was feeling, and I didn't need to explain why I was crying.
(36:46):
I'm sure this wasn't the first time that he felt that someone really connected with his work.
Looking back now, I'm just so grateful that I let him see the true authentic
me, not one that's guarded or afraid.
I had no armor on, and I was vulnerable just like floating in the water.
And Dr. Nichols' blue mind theory message came through loud and clear.
(37:11):
To review and conclude our review of episode 297 with Dr.
Nichols last summer, I remind us to revisit Blue Mind Theory,
not just this month, but every month, making a part of our emotional toolkit.
Every July 23rd is World Blue Mind Day, and I'm committed to sharing Dr.
(37:33):
Nichols' work with new reflections each year.
And I ask you, the listener, how do you connect to Dr. Nichols' Blue Mind Theory?
When you feel red mind, what strategies do you have to move you back to peace and calm of blue mind?
Have you tried using the water for this? And I encourage everyone to read Blue
(37:53):
Mind and keep looking at the science.
Keep practicing Blue Mind Theory.
Step one, understand your blue mind. What is your connection to being near or in the water?
And step two, keep practicing Blue Mind and then finally grab someone else's
hand and take them with you to the water, wherever that might be.
(38:18):
Dr. Wallace suggests fishing. I love swimming. What's your favorite way to practice Blue Mind Theory?
And for those of you who feel a deep connection to Dr.
Nichols' work like me, I want to let you know that there is a verified GoFundMe page, the Dr.
Wallace J. Nichols Memorial Fund, that was established to continue the work
(38:41):
of one of the world's most important environmentalists and changemakers.
And I'll put a link to that in the show notes.
And I'll close out this episode with a reminder from Dr.
Nichols book to keep learning and perfecting whatever blue mind is to you with
his final thoughts in our interview.
(39:05):
So I just wonder what's impacted you the most with the water's healing effects
that you've seen in your studies?
Well, there's been an explosion of groups, organizations, projects who are putting
Blue Mind into practice. It's so amazing.
I mean, the ones I wrote about 10 years ago
(39:27):
now that for every one there's a hundred more
literally all over the world and
that is awesome truly awesome what
what impacts me daily the most is seeing that this this practice this idea helps
(39:50):
the people who need it the most helps them the most so when people are,
are hanging on at the end, whether it's post-max stress, anxiety, burnout,
families that are dealing with autism,
end of life care, all of that, all of the heavy stuff that humans are handling right now.
(40:20):
Music.
Benefit the most. If you're feeling great, you're like, this is a cool podcast.
I'm feeling fine. I'm sure maybe I've never felt better.
It'll help you too. It'll move your needle.
But what's so compelling to me is the people who are, who just need it the most.
(40:47):
I mean, I'll leave it kind of wide open there, but, and in my life when I've
needed it the most, recently and in a recent past and going through things.
I feel that, I feel, you know, it can save your life, literally.
It certainly can make your life better. But I hear from people who have found,
(41:14):
you know, just tremendous healing to get through, get through the day in some cases.
Um some of the veterans that we work with uh have told stories that are just break your heart open.
Um so that's that's the thing that sort of that's the fire in my belly is when i i know that,
(41:38):
i know that there are people sitting on their
couch in their basement not sure what the
point is you know go
go get them like give them
a call maybe stop by grab their hand
say hey we're gonna go fishing i got it i got a second fishing pole or i got
(41:59):
a second surfboard i got a tandem kayak or let's just go stomp in some puddles
in the rain let's go play with water let's go throw water balloons at each other
i don't know just whatever it is let's go let's go get wet somewhere where,
you know, you know who they are, you know, you know, their name,
(42:19):
you know, their address.
So, yeah, that's, that's, that's about as that brings it like down to the nitty
gritty personal local and talk about it and share, share what works, you know.
Put your story on social media and say, Hey, this blue mine thing worked for me might work for you.
(42:43):
You don't need a tropical far-flung vacation
yeah that was
powerful just to kind of bring this
into a close we've got world blue mind day is coming up this weekend that kind
of blew me away when i said you know what would be the final thought i can see
here you've written this beautiful book i think everyone's got to read it and
(43:07):
figure out how they're going to apply it and And like you said,
extend your handout and introduce Blue Mind to others.
But what else can we do with World Blue Mind Day? What's going on with that?
Yeah, it's really pretty open-ended. Use the hashtag Blue Mind if you do social media.
Most important isn't the digital part. It is the actually going,
(43:30):
like if these ideas make sense, go try it out.
Go do something you weren't going to do otherwise. wise go
go find your water whatever it is and just
pay attention to how it
feels and reflect on what we've been talking about here and
every every july 23rd 723
(43:51):
is world blue mind day and really
it is meant to you know practice blue mind and take someone with you and then
share your story and what in whatever form that is might be a conversation at
dinner you might feel compelled to write a poem or share a photograph or make some artwork.
(44:13):
Or just have some conversations about it. And there's no big organization behind it.
The goal is not to build an organization or a brand. The goal is common knowledge.
So take it and run with it and put your creativity into it. It's your idea, it's your blue mind.
(44:35):
And you can do it every day. You don't have to just wait around for a world
blue mind day but it just was a fun thing to add to the mix of activity.
Well, Dr. Nichols, I've thoroughly enjoyed speaking with you today.
I want to thank you so much for sharing your book and this movement, Blue Mind.
And I really don't think you left a stone unturned with your research.
(44:58):
As I went through, I was just mesmerized.
So Blue Mind is a resource I'm going to add now as I reflect on episodes on
meditation. I'll talk about Blue Mind and the practices that you've brought to light.
So I just want to wish you the best of luck for where your vision of Blue Mind
takes you. And thank you so much for giving back today.
(45:18):
Oh, my pleasure. Thank you for taking the time and your care with your questions
and your thoughts and your reflections. I really appreciate that.
It was a very important interview today. Thank you so much.
Now it's time to update my grandfather's words by explaining them and by doing
so, changing our understanding of our place on the planet, who we are,
and what goes on inside and between us.
It's about reconnecting our sense of self and our soul with our waterways and oceans.
(00:21):
It's about finding our creativity, clarity, and confidence in our deep blue
minds. That's from Celine Cousteau, who opens up Wallace J.
Nichols' Blue Mind book with a fascinating look into the depths of the ocean,
reminding us of the words that meant the most of her grandfather,
(00:41):
the great Jacques Cousteau. He said.
Music.
Yeah, so there's two enormous realms that are still largely unexplored.
(01:07):
The human brain consciousness and how it all works.
The human nervous system, not just the brain, by the way. And the interactions
between our nervous systems.
Still very mysterious. We're learning a lot very quickly.
And then the ocean, largely unexplored, largely unvisited, especially the deeper parts.
(01:29):
And i thought wow
the the most complex thing in the universe our nervous
system meets the single most
important feature of life on earth the water that could be interesting if we
put those two things together and and initially i thought that that had probably
(01:49):
been done and all i needed to do was go check the book out of the library and
i would enjoy reading it on a beach somewhere or by by a pool.
And I couldn't find that book, you know, your brain on water.
There were books about your brain on happiness and your brain on stress and
your brain on creativity and neuroplasticity,
your brain on music, some great books, but there was very little and no book
(02:14):
about your brain on this ubiquitous substance called water.
And so I really wanted to read it, this book that didn't exist.
So, I tried to convince some people that they should write it.
And I was very unsuccessful at that.
And came down to this guy, one of my intellectual heroes, Dr.
(02:37):
Oliver Sacks, who had written many books about the brain and the mind and behavior,
the late great neurologist, Dr. Oliver Sacks, water lover, music lover,
lover of life, amazing writer, big-minded thinker.
And I thought, wow, he should write this book about the brain on water.
And I would love to read it after he writes it. And I pitched the idea to him
(03:00):
and he said, it's a fine idea. You do it.
Welcome back to season 12 of the Neuroscience Meets Social and Emotional Learning podcast,
where we connect the science-based evidence behind social and emotional learning
and and emotional intelligence training for improved well-being, achievement,
(03:24):
productivity, and results using what I saw as the missing link since we weren't
taught this when we were growing up in school, the application of practical neuroscience.
I'm Andrea Samadi, an author and an educator with a passion for learning and
launched this podcast six years ago with the goal of bringing all the leading
(03:48):
experts together in one place to help us to apply this evidence-based research to our daily lives.
On today's episode number 338, we'll revisit a previous interview,
number 297, from last summer to remember the author of the best-selling book, Blue Mind, Dr.
(04:15):
Wallace J. Nichols, who made such an impact on the world with his Blue Mind
movement, and he's sadly no longer here with us today.
While this is a difficult episode to write, I know it's an important one as
I personally could use the tips that I know we're going to cover myself at the moment.
(04:35):
And I'm also sure that there are others in the world who could benefit from
revisiting the surprising science that shows how being near,
in, on, or underwater can make you happier, healthier,
more connected, and better at what you do.
I could have left this episode until a later date, even closer to World Blue
(04:59):
Mind Day coming up July 23rd, later this month, as I stared at a blank document
and the words just wouldn't come out.
Then when I finally did start writing this last month, the document was erased,
so it just might not have been the right words.
Or maybe this episode was meant to be written near the ocean as I wrote it sitting
(05:22):
next to the Gulf of Mexico.
Or maybe even written from the point of view of being in the water or under
the water and looking up to see what can be felt deeply with this mysterious
brain-mind connection that Dr. Nichols discovered.
Before sitting down to write this episode, I noticed that sea turtles were swimming
(05:47):
around in the ocean, and they were coming up close to us, and everyone was mentioning how rare this was.
And I just kept thinking of Dr. Nichols telling me in our interview,
this time last year, that he studied sea turtles for 30 years.
And I remember him mentioning that he was hoping someone else more qualified, like Dr.
(06:09):
Oliver Sacks, would write this important book that he wanted to write,
Connecting the Deep Mysterious Ocean with the Integracies of Our Brain.
While revisiting our interview, I wondered, what else could we learn from Dr.
Nichols that we might have missed the first time? You know when you read a good
(06:30):
book twice, you always see something new.
This is because you've changed since the first time, and you bring new experiences with you.
And I wonder what doors this second look would open up for all of us.
Then I thought, how could I improve my own blue mind practice?
Dr. Nichols mentioned that even if we're doing okay, practicing blue mind could still help us.
(06:55):
But for those people who are in red mind, they're feeling anxious,
this practice could save your life.
It's another tool to add to our toolkit.
To prevent us from reaching gray mind or burnout.
Then I thought, how can revisiting this episode help others close to me,
starting with my own family,
(07:17):
helping them to practice blue mind in our daily lives, and also not being afraid
of the hardest science in the room, our emotions,
and keep talking openly about our feelings, and to not be afraid to reach out
to others if we feel red mind or anxious thought.
Then I thought, how can we highlight Dr.
(07:40):
Nichols' work so we can all do what he suggests we do by finding our water,
pay attention to how it feels,
and then take someone else with you to experience the deep mysteries felt with
this blue mind that's backed by science.
Knowing our interview was an important one,
(08:00):
I watched the YouTube version for the third time this week, writing more notes
on top of previous notes to see if I could dig deeper into the meaning of the
words of wisdom covered in our first interview.
So let's go back and revisit this important interview with marine biologist and author Dr.
(08:21):
Wallace J. Nichols to see if we can take our own practice of blue mind to the next level.
Now, we opened up our interview when I recalled standing next to the bluest
water I've seen in Turks and Caicos last summer of 2023, just prior to our interview.
(08:43):
I remember our bags were packed and we were just leaving our hotel room to return
when I was introduced to Dr.
Nichols via email after experiencing some of the most magical memories that
our family has ever felt near the water. Dr.
Nichols recalls those turquoise waters, saying he knew them well,
(09:05):
and we would return home as a family, not knowing we would all need Dr.
Nichols' Blue Mind Theory later this summer ourselves.
It's easy to see these things looking backwards, but the dots had not connected
forward yet, just like Steve Jobs' famous Stanford commencement speech. Beach.
I knew this was an important interview for myself as well as for others.
(09:31):
We open up this interview with my introduction about Dr.
Nichols and how the forward to his book, Blue Mind, was written by Celine Cousteau,
one of the daughters of the great Jacques Cousteau, who wrestles with explaining
the awe and wonder of our oceans and waterways.
She said, should we leave it or dive in and explain it?
(09:54):
Jacques Cousteau would dive in, so she decides to do the same and says it's
about reconnecting our sense of self and soul with our waterways and oceans.
It's about finding creativity, clarity, and confidence in our deep blue minds.
Next, I asked Dr. Nichols to share some of the meaning behind Celine Cousteau's
(10:17):
words in the foreword, and he shared that she's connected her background in
psychology to these deep words.
But in Selene's Forward, she kind of wrestles with the idea of explaining the
magic, explaining the awe and the wonder, and whether we really should.
Should we just leave it in the realm of poetry and magic, or should we dive
(10:42):
in as scientists and explore it? And I, of course, am on the side of diving in and exploring.
And so she, in her beautifully written foreword, comes to the conclusion that
her grandfather would dive into blue mind science.
So therefore, let's do it.
And I thought it really was a great opening to that exploration and what has
(11:10):
kind of flowed since she wrote that. Then I asked Dr.
Nichols about how he made the brain-water connection, and I loved his answer.
He was hoping that someone else would publish Blue Mind.
He searched all over the place for this book, Your Brain on Water,
and pitched this book idea to Dr.
(11:30):
Oliver Sacks. And he was told over and over again, this is your book to write.
And I understood why he kept looking for this book. From my point of view,
I'm a former teacher from Toronto trying to make sense of how our brain impacts
our future results, specifically as it relates to learning.
(11:51):
I remember writing the idea for this podcast down and connecting neuroscience
to social-emotional learning, and then I almost hid this idea from others in the beginning.
I'm not a neuroscientist or anything-ist, but there was a time when I was told, just like Dr.
Nichols, you need to make the neuroscience education connection.
(12:13):
And I was handed a ton of books to read, and I remember thinking,
this is too hard for me, but did it anyway.
I was determined to learn more about our brain and learning and paid people
smarter than me to explain the concepts that I couldn't grasp.
Slowly but surely, I began to understand how our brain learned something new,
(12:35):
which is why I was so impressed when Dr.
Nichols wrote the book anyway, connecting the nervous system that we're still
making deeper discoveries with to the largely unexplored bodies of water like the ocean.
He connected top neuroscientists to those who understood the mysteries within the depths of the ocean.
(12:58):
He says himself that it took him some time explaining to me that he's a marine
biologist who studied sea turtles for 30 years, and I understood what he was saying.
He noted, I'm not a neuropsychologist. I just came in the side door.
He did the work needed to put his theory together because he knew he had to
(13:20):
do this, And what he created continues to gain momentum over the years.
He started a movement, the Blue Mind Movement, with a book that he knew he had to write.
And it proved that we can all make the brain-water connection to become happier,
healthier, more connected, and better at what we do.
(13:43):
I had a lot to learn, talked to a lot of people, attended a lot of conferences,
listened to a lot of courses and podcasts, etc.
Read a lot of books to kind of put this theory together.
I was amazed at the research held in the pages of this book.
I had to ask how he did it, and his answer just blew me away. way, Dr.
(14:05):
Nichols talked about how they held these Blue Mind Summits where they connected
leading experts in neuroscience,
like neuroscientist Howard Fields, to those who use these principles in their
lives around water, like pioneering top wave surfer Jeff Clark,
or those who use this magical connection to water to overcome addiction.
(14:27):
And they were asked one question that they would answer from their specific
point of view, like making the connection with dopamine in our brain and surfing
something that had never been done before.
And this is where true learning begins, almost like connecting peanut butter
to chocolate to create the Reese's Peanut Butter Cup.
(14:49):
Even though Dr. Nichols mentions that no one would fund this idea,
he knew it had to be done, and he did it.
He mentions Dr. Dan Siegel often in Blue Mind, and he was looking for anyone
who knew the science to help make this brain-on-water connection.
And sometimes I forget what questions I ask on interviews.
(15:11):
The questions just come out of me. And if you know me, I'm like this in real life.
I remember someone close to me saying that meeting me for the first time was like a job interview.
I'm so curious, and I'll just ask so many questions that you'll leave the conversation
wondering, why so many questions?
Now, I forgot that I'd mentioned my fascination with surfing at the north shore of Hawaii to Dr.
(15:35):
Nichols until I rewatched our interview, but I just never really understood it.
I would stand there, and it was very obvious. What's wrong with me?
I'm staring staring at the water and not really getting it.
Hollywood does Blue Mind really well, with all the movies bringing water to
life, and television has mastered this topic.
(15:57):
Until this weekend, I had no idea that the American animated TV series Spongebob
was created by a marine scientist educator and animator,
and it was the highest-rating Nickelodeon series and the most profitable,
generating over $13 billion in merchandising revenue.
So why did Hollywood film and television producers see something that didn't
(16:23):
reach those who protect our oceans?
This is what motivated Dr. Nichols to keep talking to those who could help him
to make this brain-on-water connection.
Since writing Blue Mind, Dr. Nichols mentioned that there were hundreds more
organizations organizations dedicated to saving our oceans, but more work needs to be done here.
(16:43):
And I do feel a personal responsibility to continue to spread Dr.
Nichols' work and his Blue Mind Theory and keep it in the forefront of our minds.
And by question two of our interview, I was already asking Dr.
Nichols, why am I mesmerized by the ocean?
And sharing how I felt this connection to the Billabong pipe master section
(17:06):
of the North Shore in Hawaii, and he looked at me with deep understanding.
And it was here that I knew he understood what I was feeling as I was starting
to understand his blue mine theory.
I just couldn't put it into words. There's something magical about being around
water, and I've felt it for years.
(17:28):
I asked Dr. Wallace, why are so many people fascinated with the ocean and the secrets that it holds.
And he reassured me this was common, and he hears this all the time.
I thought that if I felt this way, how many others listening also feel this fascination.
And when he said that many people feel this way and were not alone,
(17:51):
I felt my emotions coming through.
Finally, someone telling me what I feel around water is common.
I felt understood at a whole new level. He said maybe everyone feels this connection,
and it might not only be the ocean.
It could be a puddle or even frozen water.
Now Dr. Nichols is catching my attention, and I can't look away.
(18:13):
As he listed all the sources of Blue Mind, my awareness is expanding.
I had no idea there were so many ways to connect to water, and his words and
calm voice were transporting me to what he calls virtual water.
And that's very common. I hear that a lot.
(18:35):
One of the most common comments I hear from people is, I felt this way my whole
life, but I didn't know what it was.
And many times people feel like it's just them who are mesmerized.
And it turns out we're not alone.
It may be everyone that has some version of a blue mind feeling.
(19:00):
And it's not always the ocean. It's all water. And it could be a puddle that you're stomping in.
It could be rain falling from the sky. It could be frozen water.
We call that ice and snow.
It could be fog and clouds and mist.
It could be a giant Pacific Ocean. It could be a little creek or a little fountain
on your desk. or a fountain downtown or a shower or a bath, a swimming pool.
(19:25):
The list is long of all the sources of Blue Mind, but it does it and it does
it. There's a continuum.
So you've got the vast Pacific Ocean with the waves.
Then you've got the smaller, more sublime
versions that might just be a beautiful poem
by Pablo Neruda about the ocean that just touches on that feeling and it transports
(19:51):
you through what I call virtual water in the form of a poem or a piece of art
and artwork or a photograph or a song.
So I think we all need to understand our own blue minds.
That's like step one, that 8 billion people understand what we're talking about here.
(20:12):
That they understand that there's science to back it up it's
a feeling it's a set of emotions it's an emotional response
to water but there's science
to explain it and so you understand your
blue mind and then you have access
to it and then you practice you should mindfully practice blue mind throughout
(20:33):
your life so when you're super stressed and i yeah pause before i said that
because I am often these days and I think everybody else is for a variety of reasons.
Go to the water. There are lots of techniques that help with anxiety and stress and burnout.
One of them is just go to the water.
(20:56):
Listen to the water, get in the water, float on it, a shower,
let that water bang on the back of your neck, go for a swim,
just sit by the edge of it and look at it, read your book by the water.
And make that a regular part of your emotional toolkit.
And I think if we do that, if we make it common knowledge, which is my goal,
(21:20):
is to make Blue Mind common knowledge and common practice,
I think we transform well-being and wellness, but we also transform our ability
to protect and restore the waters themselves.
Both of those things, I think, are outcomes. comes. So I get pretty motivated
and excited, even through the ups and downs of life, to keep going with sharing
(21:45):
this and having conversations like that.
Now that we know what Blue Mind is, it's a feeling and it's a fascination that
we might all feel around water,
how do we now apply it and make use of it in our lives to become happier,
healthier, more connected, and better at what we do.
Dr. Nichols directs us to step one of this process, where he says that we first
(22:10):
of all must understand our own blue mind.
I know that I'm more creative around water. I know my kids have always loved
swimming in the ocean or swimming pools.
What about you? How do you feel around water?
Have you ever stood mesmerized looking at water or ice, or fog,
and wondered what was capturing your attention.
(22:31):
I hope that you feel some sort of reassurance that this is something Dr.
Nichols would hear all the time.
So now what's next? What do we do with this blue mind?
Step two, mindfully practice blue mind in your life.
When you are in what Dr. Nichols calls red mind, when you're anxious or super
(22:53):
stressed, he says go to the water, get in the water, float on the water,
sit by the water, read your book by the water.
Practice this evidence-based method that can help transform you to a better
place and make this a part of your emotional toolkit. kit.
Dr. Nichols had a goal to make this common knowledge to transform well-being
(23:18):
and wellness while also transforming our ability to protect these waters.
And then it happened, and I'm no longer afraid to feel these deep emotions.
It happens all the time when I'm connecting with others at the heart level,
whether it's during interviews or in real life, and I know Dr.
Nichols could see it, let alone feel it. My eyes started to tear up,
(23:43):
and I had to ask, why do some of us feel so emotional around water?
I knew he understood what I was trying to ask him, and I loved his answer.
He said when we're in the water, we're vulnerable.
Our armor fades away. We access connection, curiosity, compassion to each other,
(24:04):
to ourselves, and to the water. He reminded me that it's a place for reflection,
deep reflection, deep thought.
And I love when I feel comfortable enough to be my whole self with someone else.
It's an incredible place to be.
No need to pretend or hide or be someone I'm not.
Just exist and be 100% myself.
(24:26):
This is how I feel around water. And this inspires my writing,
deeper thoughts, and my desire to connect and keep learning.
Well, when we're in the water, we're vulnerable.
And the water puts us in a place where the chatter that kind of protects us,
(24:50):
the barriers that kind of protect us from life, the armor that we put on, starts fading away.
And we access creativity, we access compassion and curiosity and connection
to each other and to the water itself and to ourselves.
And it's a
(25:12):
place for reflection deep reflection and deep
thought and always has been throughout all throughout all human history throughout
all traditions throughout all sacred texts you will find blue mind i've looked
everywhere i look i find it it's this is not a new idea It's actually one of the oldest ideas,
(25:35):
in fact, that water soothes our soul.
That's the 23rd Psalm in the Old Testament written by King James 3,000 years ago.
Having a bad day, get down to the water, it will soothe your soul. That's my paraphrase.
Not a new idea, a deeply ancient concept.
Dr. Nichols reminds us that water soothes the soul.
(25:59):
And this is written in the Bible over 3,000 years ago.
Having a bad day, he says, get down to the water. It will soothe your soul.
This is a deeply ancient concept, and Dr.
Nichols explains the scientific connection to why this happens in his book.
His research goes deep into the water-brain connection.
(26:22):
We make some of our best memories on the water, near the water,
with the people we care about. This is true.
In your mind, think about the photos you take.
How many photos do you have of those you love that have water associated with
them? And it doesn't need to be the deep blue ocean.
It could be frozen water, ice, or even fog.
(26:45):
We have our deepest thoughts around water. And I know this to be true for me.
It doesn't have to be the bluest oceans.
Sometimes on rare, cooler days while hiking in the mountains,
we can see fog here in Arizona, and it always stops me in my tracks.
I never thought of this as Blue Mind until reflecting on Dr. Nichols' words.
(27:07):
We have our nostalgia around water. We learn a lot.
We reflect a lot. Our world is simplified around water.
Our brain shifts to a different place, a place that Dr.
Nichols refers to as blue mind.
And all of this opens up our emotions, sad things, happy things.
(27:27):
We grieve at the water. Many of us cry in the shower. But don't forget that water soothes the soul.
And then I wondered what Dr. Nichols discovered when he measured his brain in
the water, and his response showed me how far technology has come.
They went from their prototype cap with wires to now where he said we can measure
(27:49):
our brain waves without wires while surfing, kayaking, floating, or swimming.
And I'd love to try this and measure my brain on water.
He says if you want to go do your own research, go to Google Scholar and type
in blue mind, blue health, or blue space into the search bar so you can learn
(28:09):
more about blue mind theory.
And then Dr. Nichols explains what happens to our brain while swimming versus
floating when we're still.
He shares Dr. Feinstein's research, who would say that our brains go into delta
waves much deeper than theta when we're floating.
And then he says standing by a lake will give us this meditative state,
(28:32):
but most people who've not done this before might not stay there for two hours
or more, or they might think that meditation is boring.
So to overcome this, Dr. Nichols suggests you can put a fishing pole in their
hand, and they might stick around the lake just a bit longer than usual.
So then I had to ask, how do we use Blue Mind to become more self-aware?
(28:56):
And Dr. Nichols explains that when we're in crisis of any kind,
in red mind, when we feel anxious or urgency, our thinking narrows and we might
feel panic, which could be useful at times.
It can help us, but it also, when it's triggered all the time,
can lead us to gray mind and will eventually burn us out.
(29:18):
So we must learn to rest, relax, breathe to gain perspective,
learn to pause to see things from a new angle.
Take a more compassionate approach.
And he says you might appreciate the opponent better or learn to understand yourself better.
This helps with problem solving and thinking.
(29:38):
Yeah. And so you could say standing by water, standing by a lake will help you meditate and relax.
Well, most people are going to say, okay, I'll go stand by the lake for a few
minutes, but I'm not going to stand by the lake for two hours and meditate.
I get bored and people have a hard time with that.
So you put a fishing pole in their hand.
(29:59):
And now you're standing by the lake with a fishing pole in your hand staring at the water.
Maybe there's a bobber at the end if you're fishing with worms or bait.
Maybe you're using a lure or you're a fly fisher person.
And then it's not meditation, and it's not quote-unquote boring,
(30:19):
and people have an on-ramp to say, okay,
like your previous interviewee said, fishing is my meditation. Yes, it is.
Let's not call it anything else. That's what it is.
And it also may be a source of social interaction, and it may be a physical
(30:42):
activity. It may also be a way to get protein into your life.
And then when you can't get to the water, think about water with your own imagination.
We don't need to go to that turquoise water on the other side of the world.
Blue Scription, he calls it, is doing blue mind wherever you are.
(31:04):
And I explained to Dr. Nichols in our interview that when we left the deep blue
ocean and returned home, I had completely forgotten about all the types of water
that we have available to us in Arizona,
where we say we're landlocked. And then Dr.
Nichols opened my mind up and uncovered a way that we can all find water.
(31:26):
He says, begin with wild waters. Start with wild waters, a river, lakes, or oceans.
Then go to domestic water, like a swimming pool, or a tub, or a spa or a shower.
Put a candle in a bathroom, he suggests.
Then find urban water, fountains to sit or walk by, or virtual water,
(31:48):
which is poetry, songs, recordings, or water apps.
Then he says make your own recordings or videos of water to replay later,
reminding us that we all have an abundance of water, even those like me who
thought were landlocked in Arizona. persona. So.
Kayaking, there are all kinds of activities, skipping stones,
(32:11):
bird watching, beach combing.
All these activities have at least a mildly meditative aspect that we need.
And so for people who struggle with meditation, you know, sort of the sit quietly
and cross your legs and close your eyes, blue mind is an on-ramp.
(32:32):
And it doesn't mean you can't also meditate, but the water meditates us, does some of the work.
And I think that's a good thing. And when I asked Dr.
Nichols about our emotions or why so many people prefer to leave them out of
the conversation, he reminds me that our emotions are the hardest science in the room.
(32:55):
The science of emotion is rigorous and complex. flex.
He's now fully aware that science backs up our emotional side,
and he knows when this side is ignored, it's usually from people who are just
not aware of the vast amounts of science behind our emotions.
His answer made me feel more comfortable with the fact I know I can feel deeply
(33:17):
and not be afraid of this.
I'll just keep learning to understand this difficult science,
and I'm grateful I've had this once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to sit down and speak with with Dr.
Nichols, who opened up my awareness to a whole new level.
I think the water always helps, you know? Just think about it in your own life.
(33:40):
Like, if I'm feeling a little edgy in it, just take a bath.
It doesn't solve all your problems, but it pauses them and it gives you perspective,
which may help you solve your problems.
Or take a walk by the water. Go spend some time in nature.
And I'm very ecumenical about water, all of its forms. Most plants are up to 90% water.
(34:05):
So that counts. Go outside. Be with the water-based life in nature.
Be with the lakes and the rivers and the creeks. and let
your let your mind move into that
that better place for for problem solving and for for thinking self-awareness
is a big part of it notice you know how that works while it's happening that's
(34:31):
always good because then you are likely to do it again if it works well for you.
So that's that's kind of how that that fits together
but the red mind and the gray mind and
the blue mind those are those are useful it's a
cartoon terminology over simplification i'll
admit a very complex neurochemistry and
(34:54):
psychology but people have a hard time talking about their emotional well-being
so if we can color code it and i can say hey i've been feeling too much red
mind i'm slipping into gray mind i need to get some blue mind you know what i'm talking about out,
but I'm not using the scary language that I don't want in my permanent file at,
(35:18):
work about depression and anxiety and burnout and any of that.
I can approach it in maybe a lighter way, but in a useful way.
I think that's a good thing. When I asked Dr. Nichols about what had impacted
him the most over the years with his study, it was all about helping others.
(35:39):
I know his work in blue mind theory can save someone's life.
If you're struggling with a red mind yourself, it will help you to find peace.
And once you've gone from red mind to blue mind and you're in a good place,
reach your hand out to help others get through their day.
Dr. Nichols reminds us that we all know someone who's sitting on their couch,
(36:01):
not sure what the point is, and urges us to go find them and take them to the
water of some sort, wherever it is.
Take them fishing, he says, but he says go find your water.
Practice blue mind ourselves and then take someone else with you,
reminding us that water gives us peace of mind And at the end of this interview,
(36:25):
I felt a deep connection to Dr.
Nichols, so much so that when I stopped recording, I couldn't stop the tears.
I felt his heart and years of work with his blue mind theory and was moved to such a deep level.
He understood what I was feeling, and I didn't need to explain why I was crying.
(36:46):
I'm sure this wasn't the first time that he felt that someone really connected with his work.
Looking back now, I'm just so grateful that I let him see the true authentic
me, not one that's guarded or afraid.
I had no armor on, and I was vulnerable just like floating in the water.
And Dr. Nichols' blue mind theory message came through loud and clear.
(37:11):
To review and conclude our review of episode 297 with Dr.
Nichols last summer, I remind us to revisit Blue Mind Theory,
not just this month, but every month, making a part of our emotional toolkit.
Every July 23rd is World Blue Mind Day, and I'm committed to sharing Dr.
(37:33):
Nichols' work with new reflections each year.
And I ask you, the listener, how do you connect to Dr. Nichols' Blue Mind Theory?
When you feel red mind, what strategies do you have to move you back to peace and calm of blue mind?
Have you tried using the water for this? And I encourage everyone to read Blue
(37:53):
Mind and keep looking at the science.
Keep practicing Blue Mind Theory.
Step one, understand your blue mind. What is your connection to being near or in the water?
And step two, keep practicing Blue Mind and then finally grab someone else's
hand and take them with you to the water, wherever that might be.
(38:18):
Dr. Wallace suggests fishing. I love swimming. What's your favorite way to practice Blue Mind Theory?
And for those of you who feel a deep connection to Dr.
Nichols' work like me, I want to let you know that there is a verified GoFundMe page, the Dr.
Wallace J. Nichols Memorial Fund, that was established to continue the work
(38:41):
of one of the world's most important environmentalists and changemakers.
And I'll put a link to that in the show notes.
And I'll close out this episode with a reminder from Dr.
Nichols book to keep learning and perfecting whatever blue mind is to you with
his final thoughts in our interview.
(39:05):
So I just wonder what's impacted you the most with the water's healing effects
that you've seen in your studies?
Well, there's been an explosion of groups, organizations, projects who are putting
Blue Mind into practice. It's so amazing.
I mean, the ones I wrote about 10 years ago
(39:27):
now that for every one there's a hundred more
literally all over the world and
that is awesome truly awesome what
what impacts me daily the most is seeing that this this practice this idea helps
(39:50):
the people who need it the most helps them the most so when people are,
are hanging on at the end, whether it's post-max stress, anxiety, burnout,
families that are dealing with autism,
end of life care, all of that, all of the heavy stuff that humans are handling right now.
(40:20):
Music.
Benefit the most. If you're feeling great, you're like, this is a cool podcast.
I'm feeling fine. I'm sure maybe I've never felt better.
It'll help you too. It'll move your needle.
But what's so compelling to me is the people who are, who just need it the most.
(40:47):
I mean, I'll leave it kind of wide open there, but, and in my life when I've
needed it the most, recently and in a recent past and going through things.
I feel that, I feel, you know, it can save your life, literally.
It certainly can make your life better. But I hear from people who have found,
(41:14):
you know, just tremendous healing to get through, get through the day in some cases.
Um some of the veterans that we work with uh have told stories that are just break your heart open.
Um so that's that's the thing that sort of that's the fire in my belly is when i i know that,
(41:38):
i know that there are people sitting on their
couch in their basement not sure what the
point is you know go
go get them like give them
a call maybe stop by grab their hand
say hey we're gonna go fishing i got it i got a second fishing pole or i got
(41:59):
a second surfboard i got a tandem kayak or let's just go stomp in some puddles
in the rain let's go play with water let's go throw water balloons at each other
i don't know just whatever it is let's go let's go get wet somewhere where,
you know, you know who they are, you know, you know, their name,
(42:19):
you know, their address.
So, yeah, that's, that's, that's about as that brings it like down to the nitty
gritty personal local and talk about it and share, share what works, you know.
Put your story on social media and say, Hey, this blue mine thing worked for me might work for you.
(42:43):
You don't need a tropical far-flung vacation
yeah that was
powerful just to kind of bring this
into a close we've got world blue mind day is coming up this weekend that kind
of blew me away when i said you know what would be the final thought i can see
here you've written this beautiful book i think everyone's got to read it and
(43:07):
figure out how they're going to apply it and And like you said,
extend your handout and introduce Blue Mind to others.
But what else can we do with World Blue Mind Day? What's going on with that?
Yeah, it's really pretty open-ended. Use the hashtag Blue Mind if you do social media.
Most important isn't the digital part. It is the actually going,
(43:30):
like if these ideas make sense, go try it out.
Go do something you weren't going to do otherwise. wise go
go find your water whatever it is and just
pay attention to how it
feels and reflect on what we've been talking about here and
every every july 23rd 723
(43:51):
is world blue mind day and really
it is meant to you know practice blue mind and take someone with you and then
share your story and what in whatever form that is might be a conversation at
dinner you might feel compelled to write a poem or share a photograph or make some artwork.
(44:13):
Or just have some conversations about it. And there's no big organization behind it.
The goal is not to build an organization or a brand. The goal is common knowledge.
So take it and run with it and put your creativity into it. It's your idea, it's your blue mind.
(44:35):
And you can do it every day. You don't have to just wait around for a world
blue mind day but it just was a fun thing to add to the mix of activity.
Well, Dr. Nichols, I've thoroughly enjoyed speaking with you today.
I want to thank you so much for sharing your book and this movement, Blue Mind.
And I really don't think you left a stone unturned with your research.
(44:58):
As I went through, I was just mesmerized.
So Blue Mind is a resource I'm going to add now as I reflect on episodes on
meditation. I'll talk about Blue Mind and the practices that you've brought to light.
So I just want to wish you the best of luck for where your vision of Blue Mind
takes you. And thank you so much for giving back today.
(45:18):
Oh, my pleasure. Thank you for taking the time and your care with your questions
and your thoughts and your reflections. I really appreciate that.
It was a very important interview today. Thank you so much.
Popular Podcasts
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.