January 13, 2026 • 39 mins
Fun fact: saving money *and* the environment is (or...can be) bipartisan!
Liz talks with Andrew Schuyler from Granite Outdoor Alliance about the outdoor economy (we see you, walkers), what New Hampshire companies are doing to make a difference (teamwork), and how even YOU (and Liz) can go sustainable.
Live event alert! Friday, February 20 at 8:00 p.m. at 3S Artspace in Portsmouth - NH Has Issues (aka Liz) will be on stage, chit chatting live!
Become a monthly supporter of the show --> this helps Liz record, edit, and publish episodes!
Be like Andrew! Have an idea for an upcoming episode? Email Liz: newhampshirehasissues@gmail.com -- bonus points if you connect to a previous episode...
This episode pairs well with Clean Energy (is not scary) with Sam Evans-Brown
Links:
- Granite Outdoor Alliance
- Office of Outdoor Recreation (and the Workforce Toolkit)
- Andrew mentions a few local companies and sustainability-minded organizations on this episode, including:
- Deloitte C-Suite Sustainability Report
- Protect Our Winters Clean Energy Column
- The Lorax
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New Hampshire Has Issues is generously sponsored by Seacoast Soils, an organic compost and topsoil provider for New Hampshire, Maine, and Northeast Massachusetts. Visit their website at www.seacoastsoil.com!
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Episode Transcript
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Liz Canada (00:00):
Our older kiddo is fourteen.
So he's gonna be learning todrive soon.
Ugh, which is terrifying.
I think we might want to gethim like a used electric car,
because he's just gonna bedriving around town.
Seems like a thing to do.
Sam Evans Brown says I can doit.
I tell my mom this plan.
She's like, no, you're gonnahave to get something new in
your garage.
I was like, no, I don't.
Sam said I don't have to dothat.
(00:21):
You're listening to NewHampshire Has Issues, and I'm
your host, Liz Canada.
In the spirit of this episodebeing about sustainability and
the environment and gettingoutdoors, I'm gonna encourage
(00:43):
all of us to get outdoors andhead to Portsmouth on Friday,
February 20th for a live event,which New Hampshire has issues,
which is me, we'll be a part of.
Uh we're doing a localpodcasters night hosted by
Granite Goodness.
It is at 3S Artspace inPortsmouth Friday, February
20th.
Tickets are available.
I will have the link in theshow notes, and I hope to see
you there.
If you would like to supportthe show on an ongoing basis,
(01:06):
become a Patreon supporter atpatreon.com slash nh has issues.
If you have an idea for anepisode, just like Andrew did
when he emailed me about thisvery episode, you can send me an
email at newhampshirehasissuesat gmail.com.
Thanks for listening.
I love musicals, and your lastname is Skylar, which makes me
want to sing the lyrics fromHamilton.
(01:28):
I'm assuming you get that alot, that your name is like the
Hamilton characters and realpeople.
Andrew Schuyler (01:34):
Yes.
Uh the Phillips Schuyler familyfrom I believe uh upstate New
York, no relation, but my kidsget it more from school.
Liz Canada (01:42):
Oh yeah, I bet.
Andrew Schuyler (01:43):
No relation, but I do get it a lot.
But I got Schuler, Schillerbutchered all over as a kid.
Liz Canada (01:50):
Well, uh, I would get, you know, my last name is
Canada, which seems so easy forsomeone to pronounce, but
inevitably people think thatit's it looks too simple.
So they're like, Kanada,canyada, Kennedy?
And I'm like, you're so faraway from where you should be.
There's an office.
As simple.
Andrew Schuyler (02:08):
Yeah.
There's a move, there's anepisode in the office when uh
Michael says we're going to aninternational trip to Canada.
Liz Canada (02:14):
Canada.
Well, I am your host, LizCanada.
And joining me today is AndrewSchuyler, who is the
sustainability strategist forthe Granite Outdoor Alliance.
Andrew, welcome to the show.
Andrew Schuyler (02:28):
Hey, Liz.
It's great to be with you.
Liz Canada (02:29):
I'm so glad you're here.
I'm so glad you reached out.
You're you're one of the peoplewho's reached out to me to say,
hey, I've got an idea for ashow.
And here you are, which isamazing.
Andrew Schuyler (02:38):
It's magic.
I was listening to the SamEvans Brown uh episode from uh
Clean Energy New Hampshire, andhe uh he inspired me.
Yeah, for sure.
Liz Canada (02:46):
He celebrity inspires so many people.
Amazing.
I'm so so glad that you'rehere.
Um, I like to do a tagline atthe top of the show, Andrew.
I don't know if you've thoughtabout one.
I think what I'm gonna go withis Welcome to New Hampshire Has
Issues, the podcast that daresto ask, how many issues can
possibly be sustainable in NewHampshire?
How's that?
Andrew Schuyler (03:07):
I like that.
Uh I like that a lot.
Yeah, I have thought about it,and now it changes perhaps a
bit, but I'll I'll go with umWelcome to New Hampshire Has
Issues, the podcast that daresto ask, why are all the cool
kids practicing sustainability?
Liz Canada (03:24):
Ooh, the cool kids.
Maybe the listener of the showis a cool kid, or maybe that
person wants to be a cool kid.
Andrew Schuyler (03:31):
Or they work for a cool company.
Yeah.
Liz Canada (03:33):
Ooh, or a cool company.
That's right.
So let's jump right into it.
So I mentioned you're thesustainability strategist for
the Granite Outdoor Alliance.
Andrew, our entire state feelslike the outdoors.
Like we're just a giantbackyard, it feels like.
So what is the Granite OutdoorAlliance?
Andrew Schuyler (03:50):
Aaron Powell The Granite Outdoor Alliance was
formed in 2020 during thepandemic, but it's it's a
membership-based organizationthat is a collection of
businesses and nonprofits andeducational or higher
educational organizations thatsupport the outdoor economy.
And so when you think aboutthe, yeah, as you said about New
(04:10):
Hampshire, one of its gemscertainly is the outdoors.
And that attracts people andhopefully it retains them to
come and not only visit, butperhaps to to come and and and
move and live here.
You know, GOA is really tryingto unite the brands and people
who recognize what the outdoorrecreational impact can be on
(04:32):
the economy and the environment.
And then we also, because thereis there's so many facets to
sustainability, you know, wewant to um tie those together.
Liz Canada (04:41):
How did how did you get into this work?
How does one get into thesustainability lifestyle?
Were you like a you're anoutdoorsy guy and you're like,
you know what?
I like this outdoor stuff.
I think we should keep it.
Like, how did how did you getinto it?
Andrew Schuyler (04:56):
Uh you know, I'd probably have to uh say my
mom, I grew up in Wisconsin anduh my mom always hung our
laundry outside.
And I love I love jeans thatare like wrinkly like that.
My wife can't stand it.
Um and I get it.
I do.
No, I think that would thatinformed me though.
I love the outdoors, I'm askier, I'm a hiker, I'm a biker,
(05:17):
um, you know, just just out init whenever I can.
So that certainly has a prettybig role in it.
But I would say having kids,you know, I I have a 12-year-old
daughter and a 15-year-old son,and we're not doing a very good
job, which is code for we'redoing a pretty terrible job,
yeah, of being stewards of theenvironment and and how we can
(05:40):
actually make things better.
You know, there's there'salways been this interesting
tension between, you know, theeconomy and the environment.
And that the old thought was,well, you can't have both.
You know, you're s if you'regonna protect the environment.
Liz Canada (05:55):
Choose one.
Andrew Schuyler (05:57):
Right.
And it's just it's a falsechoice.
Yeah.
And, you know, and I mean,really, sustainability is is all
about innovation.
It's all about finding new waysto do things.
Liz Canada (06:07):
So you said the the S-word, which, you know, getting
into my simple question, whatis sustainability?
Sam Evans Brown came on theshow and I was like, what's
clean energy?
So I need you to start with thebasics with me.
So, like, what issustainability exactly?
Andrew Schuyler (06:25):
Yeah, there's a couple of ways to think about
it.
Um, we can go clinical, sort ofthe UN definition, you know,
meeting our current needs whilepreserving resources for future
generations.
And so that's you know, that'sone way to think about it.
Another way would be the threePs that people talk about, and
that's profit, planet, andpeople.
(06:47):
And so for profit, you need tobe economically viable.
If your business ororganization is going to exist,
uh, you need to be sustainablyviable.
And then planet, you need toprotect uh the resources for the
future for future use.
And then for people, you know,you want to keep people safe and
(07:07):
consumers and employees andtheir well-being really should
be at the at the top of that ofthat list.
You know, you had CongressmanPappas on an earlier uh episode,
and he was talking aboutlegislation that he was working
on to help veterans who havebeen exposed to toxic
substances.
You know, anything from burnpits, Agent Orange, you know,
(07:28):
from Vietnam and other hazards.
And so, you know, in thatinstance, you know, the
congressman and and hiscolleagues, it sounded like
actually they were beingbibartisan about this.
And, you know, we're working onways to address those health
and safety problems and doingthe right thing by the people
that you know serve our country.
And then a third way to thinkabout this perhaps, and it sort
(07:50):
of harkens back, it was the yearI was born, night in the 1900s.
Liz Canada (07:55):
Throw back D.
Andrew Schuyler (07:56):
This book I'm sure some listeners have heard
of.
It was 1972, and it was TheLorax by Dr.
Seuss.
Liz Canada (08:04):
Yes, we love the Lorax.
Lorax.
Andrew Schuyler (08:06):
Yes, there have been movies of it, and um and
but the book, you know, isobviously the original.
You know, this is aninteresting way again to look at
sustainability because thebook, you know, talks about the
truffle of trees being choppeddown.
And that really amplifies w theway our current culture
continues to be, even from backin 53 years ago.
And what that was, that cultureor continues to be is a take,
(08:31):
make, waste society or ethic.
And so, you know, they took thetruffla trees down, they made
things, thneeds in this case,out of them, and then they
wasted them.
And then I was done, right?
And so then all of a suddenthey picked up and had to go
because they didn't, you know,they didn't try to replant them
or try to, you know,accommodate.
And so what we want to do insustainability is, you know, go
(08:56):
from this take-make waste ethicto a borrow use return.
And so if you're a say you're acell phone manufacturer and you
need copper as one of thefeedstocks or elements that you
need, so you borrow the copper,and hopefully you're doing it in
a sustainable way where you'renot having children in some
(09:17):
country, you know, in ahazardous scenario.
Um, but so you borrow thatcopper, you use it, you make a
cell phone out of it, and thenwhen it's done, you return it.
And that is some sort of aeither recycle it, uh, you you
repurpose it.
And that then gets into thiswhole idea of circularity.
Liz Canada (09:36):
I feel like I was raised in this concept of like
recycling.
You just put it in therecycling bin, off it goes, into
the magical recycling area.
I grew up in New Jersey, and atthe time at least, it was we
had to separate out all of ourrecycling into the different
categories of cardboard boxes,cans, bottles, so forth.
But what it sounds like you'retalking about is like
(09:58):
organizations prioritizing this.
What does that look like in NewHampshire?
Like what are organizations,what are folks doing in New
Hampshire?
Andrew Schuyler (10:05):
You know, just one example, a quick one off the
top of my head.
Uh Tuckerman Brewing Company inConway, they have, I believe
it's once or twice a week.
It's a j it's a giantwheelbarrow.
And it is the spent grains, theleftover mash from their
production.
And so up until a few yearsago, they were paying someone to
(10:27):
come and haul away that stuffwhere it was presumably going to
a landfill and rotting and thenand then also then emitting a
bunch of methane.
Well, a couple of years ago,they developed a relationship
with farmers up the road, nottoo far from where I am, a place
called Nautaville Farm, whereNautoville Farm comes a couple
(10:48):
times a week, picks up thismash, drives it back to their
farm, and feeds their cows withit.
And so you've got multiple winshere, right?
From the brewery, they're nothaving to pay the cost
associated with a hauler comingin, paying the disposal fee.
And then the farm gets freefeed stuff or free food for its
(11:08):
front.
You know, it's not a whole lotof uh protein, but it's a it's a
fiber, you know, and there'sthere's definitely some value to
it.
And you get happy cows.
Um, you know, eating cows.
Eating leftover beer, you know.
And so another example, youknow, this is an interesting one
because it uh it's a companycalled Minus 33.
So Minus 33 is a merino uh woolclothing company based in
(11:31):
Ashland.
And uh in this example, we'lltouch on a couple of different
sort of parts of those, I guessthose three Ps that we discussed
planet, profit, and people.
And several years ago, theythey work with a lot of um
search and rescue, SAR, searchand rescue is what they're
they're called, volunteers.
And they were hearing frompeople sort of anecdotally that
these volunteers were going outon rescues, and it could be up
(11:56):
to some crazy place abovetreeline, not Washington area,
and someone got themselves intotrouble.
A lot of times they wereunderprepared, and these
rescuers would show up and theyhave their, they're always
prepared, and they would haveextra hats and extra this, that,
and the other.
And so they just, withoutthinking about it, put their
nice, you know, $40 Patagoniahat on some person who needs to
(12:16):
be rescued, never to be seenagain.
And again, you know, thesethese people are volunteers and
they're literally giving away a,you know, this stuff isn't
cheap.
And so Minus 33 came up withthe idea to use irregulars or
returns that may have beenimperfect.
Yeah.
Socks are great because socksnot only help your feet, but
they work for your hand.
(12:37):
They can work as a you know ina triage situation.
And so they're donating hatsand gloves and socks to these
search and rescue teams that aregoing out in the in Maine, New
Hampshire, Vermont, andColorado, and they're giving
them to them.
And so these teams are able togo up fully prepared.
And then when you look at theother benefit, you know, you've
got a waste reduction from minus33.
(12:59):
You know, they're they're notthrowing away as many items that
they might not have been ableto sell on the market, but
they're plenty good if you'restuck in a bad situation.
Liz Canada (13:09):
So how do organizations like do they just
think these up?
They're like, oh wait, we couldbe doing this.
Do they get help from yourorganization?
Like that example that you gaveof the brewery before, how how
do that, how do they arrive atthat?
How does uh an organizationfigure out what would have been
waste and how to use it inanother way?
Because I'm thinking of like,maybe organizations don't know
(13:31):
what they don't know.
We've just been doing it thesame way over and over.
So how do organizations changetheir practice like that?
Andrew Schuyler (13:38):
Yeah, it's a great question.
And and change is such a hardthing.
I know you've said in pastepisodes that you just hate
change.
Liz Canada (13:44):
I want everything to be exactly the same, I want
nothing to be different.
Yeah.
So it's scary to think aboutchanging something.
Andrew Schuyler (13:52):
Yeah, I have a master's degree in
sustainability, and what theyjust constantly tried to drive
into us was you know, you are achange agent.
You need to be a change, youknow, because it's hard.
And change comes in differentforms, right?
You can have incrementalchange, sort of small steps,
sort of the low-hanging fruit,or you can have more
transformational change, whichyou know will have much more of
(14:14):
an impact.
But more back to your question,you know, so Granted Outdoor
does a lot of work bringing thislarge community of people who
are impacted by the outdooreconomy together.
And so it could be a networkingevent that we put together
where you get two peopletogether who didn't know that,
oh, wait, you know, wow, I coulduse your waste product for a
(14:37):
feedstock, for example.
You know, and we and wecertainly like to facilitate um
that type of conversation andcollaboration.
Liz Canada (14:44):
Sustainability mixer.
Andrew Schuyler (14:46):
Could be that.
Yeah.
We haven't actually gone downthat road, but now I'm glad you
thought of that.
But again, that that reallyprovides an opportunity for
businesses and and nonprofits.
You know, we have a lot oforganizations that do work with
nonprofits, you know, that thatsort of recognize, you know,
having a relationship with alocal nonprofit is advantageous,
(15:10):
not only for them, but youknow, more importantly for the
community.
And so, um, I mean, in yourneck of the woods, I'm working
on something right now forgranted outdoor on uh travel and
nature uh in Exeter.
Yeah.
And it's a, you know, a retailclothing and equipment shop.
And they're doing a just agreat uh amount of work on
(15:30):
working with the local communityon helping people or sponsoring
hikes and educating peopleabout safety.
And so while that may not falla little bit out of the quote
unquote environmental side ofsustainability, it's still
helping our communities.
And that is very sustainable,you know, because we want these
(15:51):
communities to be thriving.
We want the downtowns to behealthy.
Another word that I was umingrained or was ingrained in me
in uh my master's program wascollaboration.
Um and and also very hard.
Liz Canada (16:04):
Change is hard and collaborating is very hard.
Andrew Schuyler (16:07):
It is, and and identifying a broad amount of
stakeholders and then and thencollaborating with them.
And so the the short-termmindset, you know, you have you
have you know, you have earningsreports, you have quarterly uh
requirements, you know, from theSEC and otherwise and other
places, that forces a company tothink short term.
(16:27):
And so they're they're laperhaps less willing to invest
in something more expensive, apiece of infrastructure that
could ultimately save themmoney, ultimately reduce their
risk exposure.
It could ultimately providethem with more of a market base
because people might actuallywant to support that type of an
(16:48):
organization.
But because they're thinking inthat short term, yeah, maybe
we'll get to it next month ornext quarter.
You know, in that area ofcollaboration, you have a really
a great deal of uh open sourceopportunities.
Patagonia back several decadesago was the first company to
look at organic cotton, but theyrealized that they alone
(17:12):
couldn't create the economies ofscale for organic cotton to
become mainstream and to be usedin a in a much more widespread
manner.
And so what they did is theythey shared with some of their
competitors how they were gonnago about it.
They essentially did a lot ofthe homework for them and said,
hey, give it a try.
They were willing topotentially sacrifice sales
(17:34):
because they knew if anothercompany was going to jump on and
say, oh, we've got the littletag that says we're organic
cotton, but they were willing todo it because they saw a better
or a larger benefit.
And they also knew that theywere gonna, they already sort of
had some cachet as their ownorgan or their own company.
So there are, you know, again,there are a lot of ways to sort
(17:55):
of think a little bit morecreatively.
If you really want to be makingmore of an impact, you alone
can't do much necessarily, buttogether with other
organizations, you can.
I I would really encourageorganizations to sort of think
about that.
And we we like to help peopledo that or companies do that
(18:18):
because there is no reason toreinvent the wheel.
And it can be expensive.
Liz Canada (18:23):
And it can be expensive.
I feel like that's sometimesthe theme of this show is that
all of these issues, trying tosolve them can at times cost
some money, right?
Like it it does cost money.
So what have you seen from thestate of New Hampshire overall?
So you have like theseindividuals or these individual
organizations.
What initiatives have you seenfrom the state to move in the
(18:48):
direction of sustainabilitypractices?
Andrew Schuyler (18:51):
Yeah, that's a really good question.
And the short answer is notenough.
Um, there has been some moves.
Liz Canada (18:57):
I'm surprised.
Andrew Schuyler (19:00):
But I will give you an example.
Back in June, Granite OutdoorAlliance uh put together a New
Hampshire outdoor industry dayin Manchester.
And the governor came and theum economic development team
from the governor's office came.
Yep, and uh the governor made aproclamation that it was, you
know, outdoor industry day.
(19:22):
And and so the state has donesome things.
And and just getting a littlebit more nuanced on it, back in
2019, the state was, I think itwas the 16th state out of the 50
um to establish what is calledthe Office of Outdoor
Recreation.
And it's a it's staffed by oneperson.
(19:43):
So shout out to Janelle Lawton,who who had Janelle.
She's great.
You should, I would recommendyou have her on your show.
Um, she's really she's she'sterrific.
And so what what she what sheand her team, and and um, and
it's a small office, like I say,but have been incredibly.
Effective at working on issuesthat affect this sort of larger
(20:05):
outdoor economy.
And those issues, you know,everything from housing, which
is clearly an issue that we thestate really needs to get better
at.
And that's true in most states,really.
But also finding ways forpeople to be more responsible.
So Janelle's office has aworkforce, workforce toolkit.
(20:28):
It's online, open source again,and it's something that
companies can look at and thatwill help them, you know, use
from the beginning of the showhere.
You know, when you said, youknow, we're surrounded by this
lovely nature, and it's so true.
But use that.
How how can you tap into thatto attract talent?
And they also, the the theOffice of Outdoor Recreation
(20:48):
just came out, I think lastmonth, with a a new tool called
Rec Ready.
And that is for cities or townsacross the state.
It's a bunch of templates and abunch of different ways for a
resident, you know, a communitymember.
It could be if you're on aselect board, uh if you're a
city counselor.
And what it does is it helpsyou navigate and it's again a
(21:13):
template for anything from ifyou wanted to extend a trail
system, if you wanted to, youknow, utilize, uh, I go to Davis
Park in Conway uh often.
And, you know, and and I usethat example because if you
wanted to sort of showcase that,you know, clean that up,
become, you know, it it helpsyou get over some of the
bureaucracy and the hoops andhurdles that a lot of times can
(21:36):
be enough for someone who mightbe casually interested in doing
something.
And then they just they sort ofget into it and it's it's just
there's a bunch of no's and abunch of roadblocks that come
up.
And so they just they stop.
And so what this rec ready toolwill do is help, again,
communities further develop andidentify resources that are
right there, right in front ofthem sometimes, hiding in plain
(21:58):
sight.
But if you have these assets,and I don't want I don't want to
use the word develop them perse, you know, you don't have to
put a hot dog stand there, butyou know, you might find ways to
make it a more viable uh andattractive place for people to
come use.
And then if you put, you know,I'm a big believer in that if
you have more eyes on something,it's probably gonna be safer,
as opposed to places that wedon't look at, and then that's
(22:20):
where sort of some bad thingscan happen.
The rub I've heard on NewHampshire is that it's sort of
the donut hole, right?
You know, if you look at sayelectric vehicle um policies,
that there are really a numberof states around us that are are
aggressive on this.
And and New Hampshire reallyhasn't been.
And you know, our friends atSki New Hampshire, they're
(22:40):
they're really pushing this hardbecause you know they recognize
that people are coming fromCanada.
Well, they used to come fromCanada.
Um, but but that's anotherissue.
Um but they're coming.
Right.
If you're coming from New Yorkor or Massachusetts and you have
an EV and you show up at a skiarea, you're gonna want to,
(23:02):
you're gonna have to charge.
Right.
And so making that more uhaccessible is critical to
attracting more people into yourstate.
And and again, we don't need tospend a whole you know
economics lesson here.
But when you get people here,that's a good thing, right?
Because then they're going tothe coffee shop, they're going
to the restaurant, they're goingto a hotel or a BB.
(23:24):
And then the state is obviouslyrecognizing value on all of
those things because they'retaxing them.
But yeah, I mean, this otherstates are doing more.
But I do think that, you know,Governor Ayott recognizes this.
Um, she was at a ski NewHampshire event last week with
Congresswoman Goodlander, andyou know, they both were saying,
look, we are sympatheticalhere.
(23:44):
Um, we want to work together,we will work together on helping
this critical part of oureconomy.
I mean, that that economy, andI failed to mention before, but
the outdoor economy in NewHampshire is right around $4
billion a year.
You know, $4 billion with a Bthat's a lot of people.
Liz Canada (24:03):
That's so much money.
That is so much money.
Andrew Schuyler (24:05):
And it's, you know, 32,000 jobs.
So, you know, it's real.
And so for our leaders to sortof say, okay, we get it, because
that gets attention, trying tosort of work again, back to that
collaboration word, to worktogether, there really shouldn't
be sort of little fiefdoms herebecause we have such great
assets and people want to comehere.
Liz Canada (24:27):
You mentioned Governor Ayott and Congresswoman
Goodlander being in the sameplace at the same time.
And I think some people assumethat a lot of the issues that I
cover on this podcast or ingeneral are very partisan.
But based on those twoindividuals, just that you just
said, it makes me think thatthere are some bipartisan uh
(24:48):
supports.
What have you seen though?
Do you think that this hasbecome a partisan issue?
Do you feel that you havestrong support on both sides?
Has it changed over time in NewHampshire?
What have you what have younoticed?
Andrew Schuyler (25:02):
Yeah, it's unfortunate that it's become
sort of a hot button.
And um the current occupant inthe White House the environment.
Liz Canada (25:09):
Do we need it?
Andrew Schuyler (25:10):
I don't know.
Well, I mean, but it's it's abit ironic.
President Nixon established theEPA.
George Herbert Walker Bush wasa very strong environmentalist.
Yeah.
Um, you know, we had to be agood one.
Liz Canada (25:22):
Shout out to Richard Nixon and George H.W.
Bush.
Andrew Schuyler (25:26):
Here we are.
Not often I find myself quotingand looking to that leadership,
but but it was there.
And it was not a controversialissue.
And, you know, what when you'rein your conversation with Sam
Evans Brown, I thought this wasvery interesting because you
know he was he made the pointthat the fossil fuel industry is
really nervous about therenewable energy industry, and
(25:48):
they should be, because the thepace at which renewable
technologies are increasing isastronomical.
I mean, fun fast fact.
In 2015, the cost of anelectric vehicle battery, just
the battery, was $40,000.
That was 10 years ago.
Today, that cost is $4,000.
(26:09):
I mean, you've got solar costs.
Right.
It's in the same time frame.
In the last decade, solar costshave dropped 90%.
Wind has dropped 50%.
And so if you're part of alegacy dinosaur industry that
is, you know, coal, natural gas,oil, and there's always going
to be a place for those.
So those um uh guys, andthey're mostly guys, should rest
(26:32):
easy.
Um, they may not be used asmuch in terms of transportation,
for example, but there will bea market for petroleum
specifically.
But the reality is there issuch an astronomical growth in
the innovation for renewablespolicy is absolutely critical.
And when you have, frankly, apresident who lies and says that
(26:55):
wind turbines cause cancer, youknow, they kill birds.
They do kill some birds,there's no doubt about it.
Do you do you want to know thenumber one killer of birds,
hands down?
Liz Canada (27:05):
I do because I hate birds, but that's a personal
issue.
But I've heard this about you.
Tell me, tell me what's thenumber one killer of birds.
Andrew Schuyler (27:13):
Cats.
Liz Canada (27:13):
Outdoor cats.
We should ban them too.
I'm allergic.
Andrew Schuyler (27:16):
Yeah, well, there you go.
And and and buildings, youknow, but but again, when when
you set up a policy that, Imean, you know, the the
president very recently, now acourt struck it down, but we had
wind massive infrastructure,billion-dollar projects of wind
offshore wind, where the c thepresident just shut it down.
And it was largely laughed outof court because it it they it
(27:39):
wasn't even a compelling legalargument, but just because
certain people in theestablishment don't like a
particular technology, and Ithink I'll quote Sam here.
It used to be sort of the wayto get around it was, you know,
I'm an all of the above energykind of person.
Well, what it's kind of comeback to is drill baby drill.
And I'm an all of the above aslong as it's not renewable.
(28:02):
And the the the one of thegreat ironies was during the the
Inflation Reduction Act, youhad many, many more hundreds of
millions of dollars of projectsfor renewable projects or going
to red districts.
And so you'd have people likeMarjorie Taylor Green.
She voted against the bill, butthen she would show up at the
(28:23):
ribbon cutting in her districtfor a new solar facility or a
geothermal facility.
And you kind of can't have itboth ways.
Uh, it was over 20 conservativeRepublicans wrote to Speaker
Johnson during this process overthe course of this calendar
year saying, please protect ourprojects in our districts.
(28:44):
Because, yeah, we get it that,you know, it's not popular with
the president, you know, solarprojects or wind projects, but
they're jobs for ourconstituents.
Yeah.
And we want those jobs.
So help us, you know, helpthem.
We have numerous examples ofvery conservative organizations,
companies, that are divingheadfirst into sustainability
(29:08):
because they recognize thevalue, the financial value that
comes from it.
I mean, I'll just I'll give youa couple quick examples, and
these are come from you knowblue chip consulting firms, not
exactly, you know, bastions ofliberal philosophy, but you
know, Bain and Company andMorgan Stanley and Deloitte and
KPNG, and they theseorganizations have come out with
(29:32):
numerous, um, which will I cangive you and put in the chat or
links to it.
But you know, Morgan Stanley,for example, and this is all
this year.
So this isn't, you know, 10years ago.
Morgan Stanley, you know, had auh a survey of of leading
companies, and 88% said thatthey adopt sustainability
actions because it createsvalue.
Period.
That's why they do it.
It creates value.
(29:53):
Bain saw that 90% of companiesbelieve that over the next three
years, sustainability actionsare going to positively impact
their company.
And then Deloitte saw 83% ofbusinesses planning to increase
their investments insustainability-related
strategies, again, because ofthe financial benefit.
And so, you know, we there's abunch of different reasons
(30:15):
companies will do this.
Some, for sure, will do it forthe sort of the altruism and
they they want to do the rightthing, and that's great.
That's terrific.
But others, you know, reallyare recognizing that when you go
down this road and you embedsustainability, you know, it
attracts talent and you retaintalent, you expand your market
share, you drive innovation, youcan help your reputation for
(30:38):
sure.
Uh, and then you also rediskyour reduce your risk exposure.
You know, if you're dumping abunch of chemicals in a former
life, I I worked in the statesenate in Massachusetts, and
General Electric dumped a bunchof PCBs into the Housatonic
River out in the Berkshire's.
And well, at the time in the50s, that was to them, it seemed
like a good idea.
You know, it was pretty cheap.
(30:59):
Well, then it caught up withthem, right?
And they had to sign a billionsof dollar consent decree to
clean it all up.
So that short-sighted thinkingmaybe wasn't such a good idea.
Liz Canada (31:11):
These companies that say that they're pursuing
sustainability or they're tryingthose things for value, it's
pretty open-ended, probably,right?
Like what types of initiativesthey're taking.
I think I know what it is.
But what is greenwashing?
Andrew Schuyler (31:26):
Greenwashing is when a company, typically, will
overstate its environmentalcredentials or attributes.
So it'll say it'll sometimesthose are flat out lies.
There are laws against it.
It it is a essentially tryingto get credit for not doing it.
(31:46):
You can also do greenwashing,sort of, it's a little bit hokey
where you you say all natural.
Oh you you put literally usingthe a green label, but you're
not doing anything differently.
You're just trying to sell theenvironmental benefit that
you're hoping your customer willsay, oh, if I'm picking these
(32:07):
two different kinds of eggs, butthese these are the same price,
but they seem nicer, I'll buythem.
And so it's effectively truthin advertising and labeling, but
there's and it's been aninteresting phenomenon in the
last year or so where there's anew term called green hushing,
where companies they'repretending they're not doing it.
(32:28):
Exactly.
And they're they're afraid ofthe political fallout.
Liz Canada (32:35):
Oh no.
Oh no.
Oh my God.
How is this our society?
I'm stepping on your answer.
I'm sorry, but this ishorrifying.
Andrew Schuyler (32:44):
Yeah, they they don't they sort of see, you
know, I was talking earlierabout the benefits of
sustainability, and one of themis reputation.
Some companies will say, look,we don't want to put our toe
into that pool because we justdon't want to ruffle anybody's
feathers.
And we're we're just gonna sortof play it straight and narrow,
and we aren't gonna say thatwe're using dirty water in our
(33:08):
processes, but we're not gonnasay that we're helping to make
water clean because we, youknow, support an organization.
It's yeah, no, it's a it's ait's a new one.
It's definitely a a 2025.
Liz Canada (33:18):
That's so wild.
Green hushing.
Oh my goodness.
I can't wrap my head around it.
Is there a threshold that youhave to meet to like truly be
like a sustainable organizationor someone who's like doing the
right thing?
What's my benchmark, Andrew?
What do I need to do so thatyou can say, Liz, you are being
sustainable?
Like, what are the things thatI, as an individual, really
(33:41):
should be doing in my day-to-daylife?
You can judge me.
I'm ready.
Andrew Schuyler (33:44):
A couple of things.
I uh I'm a big proponent of umwell, A of voting.
So that's important.
Liz Canada (33:51):
I'm a fan too.
I think we should be allowed todo it.
Andrew Schuyler (33:53):
I think it's I think it's important in a
democracy that we should bevoting.
But I also but to sort of takethat a step further, the dollar
is a vote.
And if people start to think ofthat a little bit more, you're
sub you're supporting thecompanies and the products that
you buy by the the the dollarsthat you spend.
No company is is perfect.
But you can do things that willmake your company better.
(34:19):
Uh I mean, I look at uh Burgeonoutdoor, they're up in Lincoln,
and then they have a facilityin uh Gorham.
And they're using Deadstock,which is basically remnants, and
they make products out of youknow things that nobody else
seems to want.
They buy them, they're inthey're they're not going to be
replicated, right?
So you're you know, youPatagonia is great or North Face
is great, but you're not goingto see them again because it's
(34:42):
dead stock.
And so they're they'resupporting larger organizations,
you know, the responsible woolstandard, the global organic uh
textile standard.
So again, you know, I wouldsay, you know, voting is is
critical.
I'd say be curious.
Ask if you're a customer, findout what the company does to be
more sustainable.
And again, that could beanything from how do they treat
(35:04):
their workers, um, how do theyinteract in their community.
And then similarly, as anemployee, you know, ask your
employer, hey, if you seesomething, and and you know,
most employers are wanting tocreate efficiencies.
They want to drive down thecost.
And if you see something thatis, hey, no one are no one else
has noticed this, but if we dothis to that widget or something
(35:27):
and we, you know, tune it upjust a bit, it could save us X
amount of money.
It also you'd have theenvironmental attributes that
you would save.
And then I would also say, youknow, as a parent, which you
know, you are and I am, I dothink that the the personal
choices that we make,particularly when your kids are
a little bit older, um, as oursboth are, uh and are really
starting to think about money,we can model that behavior.
(35:49):
And I think that that issomething that is just
ingrained, can be ingrained inpeople.
And, you know, hopefully thatcan be a a way for people to
change.
And then finally, I would say,you know, get involved.
Uh, you know, I mean, I don'twant to be too self-serving, but
join Granite Outdoor Alliance,join Clean Energy New Hampshire,
join AMC, join LCV, and and butget involved.
(36:10):
You know, yeah, the check isgreat, write a $35 check or
whatever it is.
But the all these groups havemeaningful opportunities to
engage.
Some are on the policy side,some are, you know, with food
issues, but get out in yourcommunity and and be active
because it's just so important.
It's and it's also just healthyfor the human psyche.
Liz Canada (36:31):
This is the this is the topic that I'm like, wow,
I'm really bad at this in reallife, which is true.
No, don't sell yourself.
No, but it but it's true.
No, it it is true.
And it's, you know, I talkedabout it with Sam too, of like a
little bit of fear of gettingit wrong or not knowing where to
start.
And I like this concept of likeorganizations working together
on solving some of these andlike figuring out how to be more
(36:54):
efficient because we're all inour little silos.
Like I only know this muchinformation.
And so if I'm aroundlike-minded people and
organizations that are alsotrying to solve this larger
issue, maybe we can figure itout together.
I mean, does everybody in thisalliance get along, Andrew?
Let me ask you that.
Are you all friends?
Andrew Schuyler (37:14):
Mostly, yes.
I no, I do.
Liz Canada (37:16):
And it's interesting because is it because you all
go hiking and like it's likelike it's a good activity?
And so you're like, oh, this isnice.
I like it up here.
Andrew Schuyler (37:25):
Right.
Yeah.
But I would say that theoutdoor economy, there's an
organization called Protect OurWinters that I do some work
with.
They call it the outdoor state.
And the outdoor state ismassive and it really hits all
political stripes.
You've got hunters, you've gotpeople who like to go hunt
birds, and you have birders,people who like to go look and
(37:46):
listen to birds, and you haveall kinds of people who are, you
know, your weekend warriors, toyour, you know, if you're a
walker, yeah, literally, if youthat's what you do, is you walk,
you're part of the outdoorstate.
I mean, the numbers show thatit's a half of the uh American
population participates in someway or another in the out an
(38:08):
outdoor recreation.
And those people need a lot ofthings.
And so the way we look at it iswow, that's impressive.
Let's go try to cater to thoseneeds, but let's do it
responsibly.
And that money, again, can helpgovernments too.
I mean, a very recent studyjust came out that said, now
this is on national parkland andit's across the US.
(38:29):
But we, you know, last Ichecked that White Mountain
National Forest is or federalland, $351 million a day are
spent in the US from people whoare accessing federal land.
Liz Canada (38:40):
Wow.
Andrew Schuyler (38:40):
And so you so you think about that's, you
know, again, that's everythingfrom someone going to a coffee
shop to renting a car to goingto a brewery.
But most local governments andstates are recognizing some tax
benefit from that as well.
And so, you know, let's let'ssort of appreciate this, we
would argue, get a handle on it,and then make it more
sustainable.
Because by its very nature, ifwe're not smart about it, well,
(39:02):
people aren't going to want togo, you know, to the Housatonic
River if it's full of PCBs.
Liz Canada (39:06):
Yeah, no.
They sure am not.
Not fun.
This is great.
Thank you for all of yourknowledge and information and
controversial stance, but Iwould like there to be a planet
for my kids to grow up andparticipate on, as well as their
children, should they choose tohave those stuff.
Andrew Schuyler (39:24):
Right.
Yeah.
Liz Canada (39:25):
My personal opinion.
Let's have a planet.
Our older kiddo, when he was insixth grade, now.
And we had been talking aboutlike middle school, there's all
these hormones, and everyonecould go from zero to a million
in like a second, and suddenlyyou're yelling and you don't
(39:48):
even know why.
It's like, why did they put usall in one building together?
And I said, to protect the restof us.
That's why they put you there.
To help all of us.
Our older kiddo is fourteen.
So he's gonna be learning todrive soon.
Ugh, which is terrifying.
I think we might want to gethim like a used electric car,
because he's just gonna bedriving around town.
Seems like a thing to do.
Sam Evans Brown says I can doit.
I tell my mom this plan.
She's like, no, you're gonnahave to get something new in
your garage.
I was like, no, I don't.
Sam said I don't have to dothat.
(00:21):
You're listening to NewHampshire Has Issues, and I'm
your host, Liz Canada.
In the spirit of this episodebeing about sustainability and
the environment and gettingoutdoors, I'm gonna encourage
(00:43):
all of us to get outdoors andhead to Portsmouth on Friday,
February 20th for a live event,which New Hampshire has issues,
which is me, we'll be a part of.
Uh we're doing a localpodcasters night hosted by
Granite Goodness.
It is at 3S Artspace inPortsmouth Friday, February
20th.
Tickets are available.
I will have the link in theshow notes, and I hope to see
you there.
If you would like to supportthe show on an ongoing basis,
(01:06):
become a Patreon supporter atpatreon.com slash nh has issues.
If you have an idea for anepisode, just like Andrew did
when he emailed me about thisvery episode, you can send me an
email at newhampshirehasissuesat gmail.com.
Thanks for listening.
I love musicals, and your lastname is Skylar, which makes me
want to sing the lyrics fromHamilton.
(01:28):
I'm assuming you get that alot, that your name is like the
Hamilton characters and realpeople.
Andrew Schuyler (01:34):
Yes.
Uh the Phillips Schuyler familyfrom I believe uh upstate New
York, no relation, but my kidsget it more from school.
Liz Canada (01:42):
Oh yeah, I bet.
Andrew Schuyler (01:43):
No relation, but I do get it a lot.
But I got Schuler, Schillerbutchered all over as a kid.
Liz Canada (01:50):
Well, uh, I would get, you know, my last name is
Canada, which seems so easy forsomeone to pronounce, but
inevitably people think thatit's it looks too simple.
So they're like, Kanada,canyada, Kennedy?
And I'm like, you're so faraway from where you should be.
There's an office.
As simple.
Andrew Schuyler (02:08):
Yeah.
There's a move, there's anepisode in the office when uh
Michael says we're going to aninternational trip to Canada.
Liz Canada (02:14):
Canada.
Well, I am your host, LizCanada.
And joining me today is AndrewSchuyler, who is the
sustainability strategist forthe Granite Outdoor Alliance.
Andrew, welcome to the show.
Andrew Schuyler (02:28):
Hey, Liz.
It's great to be with you.
Liz Canada (02:29):
I'm so glad you're here.
I'm so glad you reached out.
You're you're one of the peoplewho's reached out to me to say,
hey, I've got an idea for ashow.
And here you are, which isamazing.
Andrew Schuyler (02:38):
It's magic.
I was listening to the SamEvans Brown uh episode from uh
Clean Energy New Hampshire, andhe uh he inspired me.
Yeah, for sure.
Liz Canada (02:46):
He celebrity inspires so many people.
Amazing.
I'm so so glad that you'rehere.
Um, I like to do a tagline atthe top of the show, Andrew.
I don't know if you've thoughtabout one.
I think what I'm gonna go withis Welcome to New Hampshire Has
Issues, the podcast that daresto ask, how many issues can
possibly be sustainable in NewHampshire?
How's that?
Andrew Schuyler (03:07):
I like that.
Uh I like that a lot.
Yeah, I have thought about it,and now it changes perhaps a
bit, but I'll I'll go with umWelcome to New Hampshire Has
Issues, the podcast that daresto ask, why are all the cool
kids practicing sustainability?
Liz Canada (03:24):
Ooh, the cool kids.
Maybe the listener of the showis a cool kid, or maybe that
person wants to be a cool kid.
Andrew Schuyler (03:31):
Or they work for a cool company.
Yeah.
Liz Canada (03:33):
Ooh, or a cool company.
That's right.
So let's jump right into it.
So I mentioned you're thesustainability strategist for
the Granite Outdoor Alliance.
Andrew, our entire state feelslike the outdoors.
Like we're just a giantbackyard, it feels like.
So what is the Granite OutdoorAlliance?
Andrew Schuyler (03:50):
Aaron Powell The Granite Outdoor Alliance was
formed in 2020 during thepandemic, but it's it's a
membership-based organizationthat is a collection of
businesses and nonprofits andeducational or higher
educational organizations thatsupport the outdoor economy.
And so when you think aboutthe, yeah, as you said about New
(04:10):
Hampshire, one of its gemscertainly is the outdoors.
And that attracts people andhopefully it retains them to
come and not only visit, butperhaps to to come and and and
move and live here.
You know, GOA is really tryingto unite the brands and people
who recognize what the outdoorrecreational impact can be on
(04:32):
the economy and the environment.
And then we also, because thereis there's so many facets to
sustainability, you know, wewant to um tie those together.
Liz Canada (04:41):
How did how did you get into this work?
How does one get into thesustainability lifestyle?
Were you like a you're anoutdoorsy guy and you're like,
you know what?
I like this outdoor stuff.
I think we should keep it.
Like, how did how did you getinto it?
Andrew Schuyler (04:56):
Uh you know, I'd probably have to uh say my
mom, I grew up in Wisconsin anduh my mom always hung our
laundry outside.
And I love I love jeans thatare like wrinkly like that.
My wife can't stand it.
Um and I get it.
I do.
No, I think that would thatinformed me though.
I love the outdoors, I'm askier, I'm a hiker, I'm a biker,
(05:17):
um, you know, just just out init whenever I can.
So that certainly has a prettybig role in it.
But I would say having kids,you know, I I have a 12-year-old
daughter and a 15-year-old son,and we're not doing a very good
job, which is code for we'redoing a pretty terrible job,
yeah, of being stewards of theenvironment and and how we can
(05:40):
actually make things better.
You know, there's there'salways been this interesting
tension between, you know, theeconomy and the environment.
And that the old thought was,well, you can't have both.
You know, you're s if you'regonna protect the environment.
Liz Canada (05:55):
Choose one.
Andrew Schuyler (05:57):
Right.
And it's just it's a falsechoice.
Yeah.
And, you know, and I mean,really, sustainability is is all
about innovation.
It's all about finding new waysto do things.
Liz Canada (06:07):
So you said the the S-word, which, you know, getting
into my simple question, whatis sustainability?
Sam Evans Brown came on theshow and I was like, what's
clean energy?
So I need you to start with thebasics with me.
So, like, what issustainability exactly?
Andrew Schuyler (06:25):
Yeah, there's a couple of ways to think about
it.
Um, we can go clinical, sort ofthe UN definition, you know,
meeting our current needs whilepreserving resources for future
generations.
And so that's you know, that'sone way to think about it.
Another way would be the threePs that people talk about, and
that's profit, planet, andpeople.
(06:47):
And so for profit, you need tobe economically viable.
If your business ororganization is going to exist,
uh, you need to be sustainablyviable.
And then planet, you need toprotect uh the resources for the
future for future use.
And then for people, you know,you want to keep people safe and
(07:07):
consumers and employees andtheir well-being really should
be at the at the top of that ofthat list.
You know, you had CongressmanPappas on an earlier uh episode,
and he was talking aboutlegislation that he was working
on to help veterans who havebeen exposed to toxic
substances.
You know, anything from burnpits, Agent Orange, you know,
(07:28):
from Vietnam and other hazards.
And so, you know, in thatinstance, you know, the
congressman and and hiscolleagues, it sounded like
actually they were beingbibartisan about this.
And, you know, we're working onways to address those health
and safety problems and doingthe right thing by the people
that you know serve our country.
And then a third way to thinkabout this perhaps, and it sort
(07:50):
of harkens back, it was the yearI was born, night in the 1900s.
Liz Canada (07:55):
Throw back D.
Andrew Schuyler (07:56):
This book I'm sure some listeners have heard
of.
It was 1972, and it was TheLorax by Dr.
Seuss.
Liz Canada (08:04):
Yes, we love the Lorax.
Lorax.
Andrew Schuyler (08:06):
Yes, there have been movies of it, and um and
but the book, you know, isobviously the original.
You know, this is aninteresting way again to look at
sustainability because thebook, you know, talks about the
truffle of trees being choppeddown.
And that really amplifies w theway our current culture
continues to be, even from backin 53 years ago.
And what that was, that cultureor continues to be is a take,
(08:31):
make, waste society or ethic.
And so, you know, they took thetruffla trees down, they made
things, thneeds in this case,out of them, and then they
wasted them.
And then I was done, right?
And so then all of a suddenthey picked up and had to go
because they didn't, you know,they didn't try to replant them
or try to, you know,accommodate.
And so what we want to do insustainability is, you know, go
(08:56):
from this take-make waste ethicto a borrow use return.
And so if you're a say you're acell phone manufacturer and you
need copper as one of thefeedstocks or elements that you
need, so you borrow the copper,and hopefully you're doing it in
a sustainable way where you'renot having children in some
(09:17):
country, you know, in ahazardous scenario.
Um, but so you borrow thatcopper, you use it, you make a
cell phone out of it, and thenwhen it's done, you return it.
And that is some sort of aeither recycle it, uh, you you
repurpose it.
And that then gets into thiswhole idea of circularity.
Liz Canada (09:36):
I feel like I was raised in this concept of like
recycling.
You just put it in therecycling bin, off it goes, into
the magical recycling area.
I grew up in New Jersey, and atthe time at least, it was we
had to separate out all of ourrecycling into the different
categories of cardboard boxes,cans, bottles, so forth.
But what it sounds like you'retalking about is like
(09:58):
organizations prioritizing this.
What does that look like in NewHampshire?
Like what are organizations,what are folks doing in New
Hampshire?
Andrew Schuyler (10:05):
You know, just one example, a quick one off the
top of my head.
Uh Tuckerman Brewing Company inConway, they have, I believe
it's once or twice a week.
It's a j it's a giantwheelbarrow.
And it is the spent grains, theleftover mash from their
production.
And so up until a few yearsago, they were paying someone to
(10:27):
come and haul away that stuffwhere it was presumably going to
a landfill and rotting and thenand then also then emitting a
bunch of methane.
Well, a couple of years ago,they developed a relationship
with farmers up the road, nottoo far from where I am, a place
called Nautaville Farm, whereNautoville Farm comes a couple
(10:48):
times a week, picks up thismash, drives it back to their
farm, and feeds their cows withit.
And so you've got multiple winshere, right?
From the brewery, they're nothaving to pay the cost
associated with a hauler comingin, paying the disposal fee.
And then the farm gets freefeed stuff or free food for its
(11:08):
front.
You know, it's not a whole lotof uh protein, but it's a it's a
fiber, you know, and there'sthere's definitely some value to
it.
And you get happy cows.
Um, you know, eating cows.
Eating leftover beer, you know.
And so another example, youknow, this is an interesting one
because it uh it's a companycalled Minus 33.
So Minus 33 is a merino uh woolclothing company based in
(11:31):
Ashland.
And uh in this example, we'lltouch on a couple of different
sort of parts of those, I guessthose three Ps that we discussed
planet, profit, and people.
And several years ago, theythey work with a lot of um
search and rescue, SAR, searchand rescue is what they're
they're called, volunteers.
And they were hearing frompeople sort of anecdotally that
these volunteers were going outon rescues, and it could be up
(11:56):
to some crazy place abovetreeline, not Washington area,
and someone got themselves intotrouble.
A lot of times they wereunderprepared, and these
rescuers would show up and theyhave their, they're always
prepared, and they would haveextra hats and extra this, that,
and the other.
And so they just, withoutthinking about it, put their
nice, you know, $40 Patagoniahat on some person who needs to
(12:16):
be rescued, never to be seenagain.
And again, you know, thesethese people are volunteers and
they're literally giving away a,you know, this stuff isn't
cheap.
And so Minus 33 came up withthe idea to use irregulars or
returns that may have beenimperfect.
Yeah.
Socks are great because socksnot only help your feet, but
they work for your hand.
(12:37):
They can work as a you know ina triage situation.
And so they're donating hatsand gloves and socks to these
search and rescue teams that aregoing out in the in Maine, New
Hampshire, Vermont, andColorado, and they're giving
them to them.
And so these teams are able togo up fully prepared.
And then when you look at theother benefit, you know, you've
got a waste reduction from minus33.
(12:59):
You know, they're they're notthrowing away as many items that
they might not have been ableto sell on the market, but
they're plenty good if you'restuck in a bad situation.
Liz Canada (13:09):
So how do organizations like do they just
think these up?
They're like, oh wait, we couldbe doing this.
Do they get help from yourorganization?
Like that example that you gaveof the brewery before, how how
do that, how do they arrive atthat?
How does uh an organizationfigure out what would have been
waste and how to use it inanother way?
Because I'm thinking of like,maybe organizations don't know
(13:31):
what they don't know.
We've just been doing it thesame way over and over.
So how do organizations changetheir practice like that?
Andrew Schuyler (13:38):
Yeah, it's a great question.
And and change is such a hardthing.
I know you've said in pastepisodes that you just hate
change.
Liz Canada (13:44):
I want everything to be exactly the same, I want
nothing to be different.
Yeah.
So it's scary to think aboutchanging something.
Andrew Schuyler (13:52):
Yeah, I have a master's degree in
sustainability, and what theyjust constantly tried to drive
into us was you know, you are achange agent.
You need to be a change, youknow, because it's hard.
And change comes in differentforms, right?
You can have incrementalchange, sort of small steps,
sort of the low-hanging fruit,or you can have more
transformational change, whichyou know will have much more of
(14:14):
an impact.
But more back to your question,you know, so Granted Outdoor
does a lot of work bringing thislarge community of people who
are impacted by the outdooreconomy together.
And so it could be a networkingevent that we put together
where you get two peopletogether who didn't know that,
oh, wait, you know, wow, I coulduse your waste product for a
(14:37):
feedstock, for example.
You know, and we and wecertainly like to facilitate um
that type of conversation andcollaboration.
Liz Canada (14:44):
Sustainability mixer.
Andrew Schuyler (14:46):
Could be that.
Yeah.
We haven't actually gone downthat road, but now I'm glad you
thought of that.
But again, that that reallyprovides an opportunity for
businesses and and nonprofits.
You know, we have a lot oforganizations that do work with
nonprofits, you know, that thatsort of recognize, you know,
having a relationship with alocal nonprofit is advantageous,
(15:10):
not only for them, but youknow, more importantly for the
community.
And so, um, I mean, in yourneck of the woods, I'm working
on something right now forgranted outdoor on uh travel and
nature uh in Exeter.
Yeah.
And it's a, you know, a retailclothing and equipment shop.
And they're doing a just agreat uh amount of work on
(15:30):
working with the local communityon helping people or sponsoring
hikes and educating peopleabout safety.
And so while that may not falla little bit out of the quote
unquote environmental side ofsustainability, it's still
helping our communities.
And that is very sustainable,you know, because we want these
(15:51):
communities to be thriving.
We want the downtowns to behealthy.
Another word that I was umingrained or was ingrained in me
in uh my master's program wascollaboration.
Um and and also very hard.
Liz Canada (16:04):
Change is hard and collaborating is very hard.
Andrew Schuyler (16:07):
It is, and and identifying a broad amount of
stakeholders and then and thencollaborating with them.
And so the the short-termmindset, you know, you have you
have you know, you have earningsreports, you have quarterly uh
requirements, you know, from theSEC and otherwise and other
places, that forces a company tothink short term.
(16:27):
And so they're they're laperhaps less willing to invest
in something more expensive, apiece of infrastructure that
could ultimately save themmoney, ultimately reduce their
risk exposure.
It could ultimately providethem with more of a market base
because people might actuallywant to support that type of an
(16:48):
organization.
But because they're thinking inthat short term, yeah, maybe
we'll get to it next month ornext quarter.
You know, in that area ofcollaboration, you have a really
a great deal of uh open sourceopportunities.
Patagonia back several decadesago was the first company to
look at organic cotton, but theyrealized that they alone
(17:12):
couldn't create the economies ofscale for organic cotton to
become mainstream and to be usedin a in a much more widespread
manner.
And so what they did is theythey shared with some of their
competitors how they were gonnago about it.
They essentially did a lot ofthe homework for them and said,
hey, give it a try.
They were willing topotentially sacrifice sales
(17:34):
because they knew if anothercompany was going to jump on and
say, oh, we've got the littletag that says we're organic
cotton, but they were willing todo it because they saw a better
or a larger benefit.
And they also knew that theywere gonna, they already sort of
had some cachet as their ownorgan or their own company.
So there are, you know, again,there are a lot of ways to sort
(17:55):
of think a little bit morecreatively.
If you really want to be makingmore of an impact, you alone
can't do much necessarily, buttogether with other
organizations, you can.
I I would really encourageorganizations to sort of think
about that.
And we we like to help peopledo that or companies do that
(18:18):
because there is no reason toreinvent the wheel.
And it can be expensive.
Liz Canada (18:23):
And it can be expensive.
I feel like that's sometimesthe theme of this show is that
all of these issues, trying tosolve them can at times cost
some money, right?
Like it it does cost money.
So what have you seen from thestate of New Hampshire overall?
So you have like theseindividuals or these individual
organizations.
What initiatives have you seenfrom the state to move in the
(18:48):
direction of sustainabilitypractices?
Andrew Schuyler (18:51):
Yeah, that's a really good question.
And the short answer is notenough.
Um, there has been some moves.
Liz Canada (18:57):
I'm surprised.
Andrew Schuyler (19:00):
But I will give you an example.
Back in June, Granite OutdoorAlliance uh put together a New
Hampshire outdoor industry dayin Manchester.
And the governor came and theum economic development team
from the governor's office came.
Yep, and uh the governor made aproclamation that it was, you
know, outdoor industry day.
(19:22):
And and so the state has donesome things.
And and just getting a littlebit more nuanced on it, back in
2019, the state was, I think itwas the 16th state out of the 50
um to establish what is calledthe Office of Outdoor
Recreation.
And it's a it's staffed by oneperson.
(19:43):
So shout out to Janelle Lawton,who who had Janelle.
She's great.
You should, I would recommendyou have her on your show.
Um, she's really she's she'sterrific.
And so what what she what sheand her team, and and um, and
it's a small office, like I say,but have been incredibly.
Effective at working on issuesthat affect this sort of larger
(20:05):
outdoor economy.
And those issues, you know,everything from housing, which
is clearly an issue that we thestate really needs to get better
at.
And that's true in most states,really.
But also finding ways forpeople to be more responsible.
So Janelle's office has aworkforce, workforce toolkit.
(20:28):
It's online, open source again,and it's something that
companies can look at and thatwill help them, you know, use
from the beginning of the showhere.
You know, when you said, youknow, we're surrounded by this
lovely nature, and it's so true.
But use that.
How how can you tap into thatto attract talent?
And they also, the the theOffice of Outdoor Recreation
(20:48):
just came out, I think lastmonth, with a a new tool called
Rec Ready.
And that is for cities or townsacross the state.
It's a bunch of templates and abunch of different ways for a
resident, you know, a communitymember.
It could be if you're on aselect board, uh if you're a
city counselor.
And what it does is it helpsyou navigate and it's again a
(21:13):
template for anything from ifyou wanted to extend a trail
system, if you wanted to, youknow, utilize, uh, I go to Davis
Park in Conway uh often.
And, you know, and and I usethat example because if you
wanted to sort of showcase that,you know, clean that up,
become, you know, it it helpsyou get over some of the
bureaucracy and the hoops andhurdles that a lot of times can
(21:36):
be enough for someone who mightbe casually interested in doing
something.
And then they just they sort ofget into it and it's it's just
there's a bunch of no's and abunch of roadblocks that come
up.
And so they just they stop.
And so what this rec ready toolwill do is help, again,
communities further develop andidentify resources that are
right there, right in front ofthem sometimes, hiding in plain
(21:58):
sight.
But if you have these assets,and I don't want I don't want to
use the word develop them perse, you know, you don't have to
put a hot dog stand there, butyou know, you might find ways to
make it a more viable uh andattractive place for people to
come use.
And then if you put, you know,I'm a big believer in that if
you have more eyes on something,it's probably gonna be safer,
as opposed to places that wedon't look at, and then that's
(22:20):
where sort of some bad thingscan happen.
The rub I've heard on NewHampshire is that it's sort of
the donut hole, right?
You know, if you look at sayelectric vehicle um policies,
that there are really a numberof states around us that are are
aggressive on this.
And and New Hampshire reallyhasn't been.
And you know, our friends atSki New Hampshire, they're
(22:40):
they're really pushing this hardbecause you know they recognize
that people are coming fromCanada.
Well, they used to come fromCanada.
Um, but but that's anotherissue.
Um but they're coming.
Right.
If you're coming from New Yorkor or Massachusetts and you have
an EV and you show up at a skiarea, you're gonna want to,
(23:02):
you're gonna have to charge.
Right.
And so making that more uhaccessible is critical to
attracting more people into yourstate.
And and again, we don't need tospend a whole you know
economics lesson here.
But when you get people here,that's a good thing, right?
Because then they're going tothe coffee shop, they're going
to the restaurant, they're goingto a hotel or a BB.
(23:24):
And then the state is obviouslyrecognizing value on all of
those things because they'retaxing them.
But yeah, I mean, this otherstates are doing more.
But I do think that, you know,Governor Ayott recognizes this.
Um, she was at a ski NewHampshire event last week with
Congresswoman Goodlander, andyou know, they both were saying,
look, we are sympatheticalhere.
(23:44):
Um, we want to work together,we will work together on helping
this critical part of oureconomy.
I mean, that that economy, andI failed to mention before, but
the outdoor economy in NewHampshire is right around $4
billion a year.
You know, $4 billion with a Bthat's a lot of people.
Liz Canada (24:03):
That's so much money.
That is so much money.
Andrew Schuyler (24:05):
And it's, you know, 32,000 jobs.
So, you know, it's real.
And so for our leaders to sortof say, okay, we get it, because
that gets attention, trying tosort of work again, back to that
collaboration word, to worktogether, there really shouldn't
be sort of little fiefdoms herebecause we have such great
assets and people want to comehere.
Liz Canada (24:27):
You mentioned Governor Ayott and Congresswoman
Goodlander being in the sameplace at the same time.
And I think some people assumethat a lot of the issues that I
cover on this podcast or ingeneral are very partisan.
But based on those twoindividuals, just that you just
said, it makes me think thatthere are some bipartisan uh
(24:48):
supports.
What have you seen though?
Do you think that this hasbecome a partisan issue?
Do you feel that you havestrong support on both sides?
Has it changed over time in NewHampshire?
What have you what have younoticed?
Andrew Schuyler (25:02):
Yeah, it's unfortunate that it's become
sort of a hot button.
And um the current occupant inthe White House the environment.
Liz Canada (25:09):
Do we need it?
Andrew Schuyler (25:10):
I don't know.
Well, I mean, but it's it's abit ironic.
President Nixon established theEPA.
George Herbert Walker Bush wasa very strong environmentalist.
Yeah.
Um, you know, we had to be agood one.
Liz Canada (25:22):
Shout out to Richard Nixon and George H.W.
Bush.
Andrew Schuyler (25:26):
Here we are.
Not often I find myself quotingand looking to that leadership,
but but it was there.
And it was not a controversialissue.
And, you know, what when you'rein your conversation with Sam
Evans Brown, I thought this wasvery interesting because you
know he was he made the pointthat the fossil fuel industry is
really nervous about therenewable energy industry, and
(25:48):
they should be, because the thepace at which renewable
technologies are increasing isastronomical.
I mean, fun fast fact.
In 2015, the cost of anelectric vehicle battery, just
the battery, was $40,000.
That was 10 years ago.
Today, that cost is $4,000.
(26:09):
I mean, you've got solar costs.
Right.
It's in the same time frame.
In the last decade, solar costshave dropped 90%.
Wind has dropped 50%.
And so if you're part of alegacy dinosaur industry that
is, you know, coal, natural gas,oil, and there's always going
to be a place for those.
So those um uh guys, andthey're mostly guys, should rest
(26:32):
easy.
Um, they may not be used asmuch in terms of transportation,
for example, but there will bea market for petroleum
specifically.
But the reality is there issuch an astronomical growth in
the innovation for renewablespolicy is absolutely critical.
And when you have, frankly, apresident who lies and says that
(26:55):
wind turbines cause cancer, youknow, they kill birds.
They do kill some birds,there's no doubt about it.
Do you do you want to know thenumber one killer of birds,
hands down?
Liz Canada (27:05):
I do because I hate birds, but that's a personal
issue.
But I've heard this about you.
Tell me, tell me what's thenumber one killer of birds.
Andrew Schuyler (27:13):
Cats.
Liz Canada (27:13):
Outdoor cats.
We should ban them too.
I'm allergic.
Andrew Schuyler (27:16):
Yeah, well, there you go.
And and and buildings, youknow, but but again, when when
you set up a policy that, Imean, you know, the the
president very recently, now acourt struck it down, but we had
wind massive infrastructure,billion-dollar projects of wind
offshore wind, where the c thepresident just shut it down.
And it was largely laughed outof court because it it they it
(27:39):
wasn't even a compelling legalargument, but just because
certain people in theestablishment don't like a
particular technology, and Ithink I'll quote Sam here.
It used to be sort of the wayto get around it was, you know,
I'm an all of the above energykind of person.
Well, what it's kind of comeback to is drill baby drill.
And I'm an all of the above aslong as it's not renewable.
(28:02):
And the the the one of thegreat ironies was during the the
Inflation Reduction Act, youhad many, many more hundreds of
millions of dollars of projectsfor renewable projects or going
to red districts.
And so you'd have people likeMarjorie Taylor Green.
She voted against the bill, butthen she would show up at the
(28:23):
ribbon cutting in her districtfor a new solar facility or a
geothermal facility.
And you kind of can't have itboth ways.
Uh, it was over 20 conservativeRepublicans wrote to Speaker
Johnson during this process overthe course of this calendar
year saying, please protect ourprojects in our districts.
(28:44):
Because, yeah, we get it that,you know, it's not popular with
the president, you know, solarprojects or wind projects, but
they're jobs for ourconstituents.
Yeah.
And we want those jobs.
So help us, you know, helpthem.
We have numerous examples ofvery conservative organizations,
companies, that are divingheadfirst into sustainability
(29:08):
because they recognize thevalue, the financial value that
comes from it.
I mean, I'll just I'll give youa couple quick examples, and
these are come from you knowblue chip consulting firms, not
exactly, you know, bastions ofliberal philosophy, but you
know, Bain and Company andMorgan Stanley and Deloitte and
KPNG, and they theseorganizations have come out with
(29:32):
numerous, um, which will I cangive you and put in the chat or
links to it.
But you know, Morgan Stanley,for example, and this is all
this year.
So this isn't, you know, 10years ago.
Morgan Stanley, you know, had auh a survey of of leading
companies, and 88% said thatthey adopt sustainability
actions because it createsvalue.
Period.
That's why they do it.
It creates value.
(29:53):
Bain saw that 90% of companiesbelieve that over the next three
years, sustainability actionsare going to positively impact
their company.
And then Deloitte saw 83% ofbusinesses planning to increase
their investments insustainability-related
strategies, again, because ofthe financial benefit.
And so, you know, we there's abunch of different reasons
(30:15):
companies will do this.
Some, for sure, will do it forthe sort of the altruism and
they they want to do the rightthing, and that's great.
That's terrific.
But others, you know, reallyare recognizing that when you go
down this road and you embedsustainability, you know, it
attracts talent and you retaintalent, you expand your market
share, you drive innovation, youcan help your reputation for
(30:38):
sure.
Uh, and then you also rediskyour reduce your risk exposure.
You know, if you're dumping abunch of chemicals in a former
life, I I worked in the statesenate in Massachusetts, and
General Electric dumped a bunchof PCBs into the Housatonic
River out in the Berkshire's.
And well, at the time in the50s, that was to them, it seemed
like a good idea.
You know, it was pretty cheap.
(30:59):
Well, then it caught up withthem, right?
And they had to sign a billionsof dollar consent decree to
clean it all up.
So that short-sighted thinkingmaybe wasn't such a good idea.
Liz Canada (31:11):
These companies that say that they're pursuing
sustainability or they're tryingthose things for value, it's
pretty open-ended, probably,right?
Like what types of initiativesthey're taking.
I think I know what it is.
But what is greenwashing?
Andrew Schuyler (31:26):
Greenwashing is when a company, typically, will
overstate its environmentalcredentials or attributes.
So it'll say it'll sometimesthose are flat out lies.
There are laws against it.
It it is a essentially tryingto get credit for not doing it.
(31:46):
You can also do greenwashing,sort of, it's a little bit hokey
where you you say all natural.
Oh you you put literally usingthe a green label, but you're
not doing anything differently.
You're just trying to sell theenvironmental benefit that
you're hoping your customer willsay, oh, if I'm picking these
(32:07):
two different kinds of eggs, butthese these are the same price,
but they seem nicer, I'll buythem.
And so it's effectively truthin advertising and labeling, but
there's and it's been aninteresting phenomenon in the
last year or so where there's anew term called green hushing,
where companies they'repretending they're not doing it.
(32:28):
Exactly.
And they're they're afraid ofthe political fallout.
Liz Canada (32:35):
Oh no.
Oh no.
Oh my God.
How is this our society?
I'm stepping on your answer.
I'm sorry, but this ishorrifying.
Andrew Schuyler (32:44):
Yeah, they they don't they sort of see, you
know, I was talking earlierabout the benefits of
sustainability, and one of themis reputation.
Some companies will say, look,we don't want to put our toe
into that pool because we justdon't want to ruffle anybody's
feathers.
And we're we're just gonna sortof play it straight and narrow,
and we aren't gonna say thatwe're using dirty water in our
(33:08):
processes, but we're not gonnasay that we're helping to make
water clean because we, youknow, support an organization.
It's yeah, no, it's a it's ait's a new one.
It's definitely a a 2025.
Liz Canada (33:18):
That's so wild.
Green hushing.
Oh my goodness.
I can't wrap my head around it.
Is there a threshold that youhave to meet to like truly be
like a sustainable organizationor someone who's like doing the
right thing?
What's my benchmark, Andrew?
What do I need to do so thatyou can say, Liz, you are being
sustainable?
Like, what are the things thatI, as an individual, really
(33:41):
should be doing in my day-to-daylife?
You can judge me.
I'm ready.
Andrew Schuyler (33:44):
A couple of things.
I uh I'm a big proponent of umwell, A of voting.
So that's important.
Liz Canada (33:51):
I'm a fan too.
I think we should be allowed todo it.
Andrew Schuyler (33:53):
I think it's I think it's important in a
democracy that we should bevoting.
But I also but to sort of takethat a step further, the dollar
is a vote.
And if people start to think ofthat a little bit more, you're
sub you're supporting thecompanies and the products that
you buy by the the the dollarsthat you spend.
No company is is perfect.
But you can do things that willmake your company better.
(34:19):
Uh I mean, I look at uh Burgeonoutdoor, they're up in Lincoln,
and then they have a facilityin uh Gorham.
And they're using Deadstock,which is basically remnants, and
they make products out of youknow things that nobody else
seems to want.
They buy them, they're inthey're they're not going to be
replicated, right?
So you're you know, youPatagonia is great or North Face
is great, but you're not goingto see them again because it's
(34:42):
dead stock.
And so they're they'resupporting larger organizations,
you know, the responsible woolstandard, the global organic uh
textile standard.
So again, you know, I wouldsay, you know, voting is is
critical.
I'd say be curious.
Ask if you're a customer, findout what the company does to be
more sustainable.
And again, that could beanything from how do they treat
(35:04):
their workers, um, how do theyinteract in their community.
And then similarly, as anemployee, you know, ask your
employer, hey, if you seesomething, and and you know,
most employers are wanting tocreate efficiencies.
They want to drive down thecost.
And if you see something thatis, hey, no one are no one else
has noticed this, but if we dothis to that widget or something
(35:27):
and we, you know, tune it upjust a bit, it could save us X
amount of money.
It also you'd have theenvironmental attributes that
you would save.
And then I would also say, youknow, as a parent, which you
know, you are and I am, I dothink that the the personal
choices that we make,particularly when your kids are
a little bit older, um, as oursboth are, uh and are really
starting to think about money,we can model that behavior.
(35:49):
And I think that that issomething that is just
ingrained, can be ingrained inpeople.
And, you know, hopefully thatcan be a a way for people to
change.
And then finally, I would say,you know, get involved.
Uh, you know, I mean, I don'twant to be too self-serving, but
join Granite Outdoor Alliance,join Clean Energy New Hampshire,
join AMC, join LCV, and and butget involved.
(36:10):
You know, yeah, the check isgreat, write a $35 check or
whatever it is.
But the all these groups havemeaningful opportunities to
engage.
Some are on the policy side,some are, you know, with food
issues, but get out in yourcommunity and and be active
because it's just so important.
It's and it's also just healthyfor the human psyche.
Liz Canada (36:31):
This is the this is the topic that I'm like, wow,
I'm really bad at this in reallife, which is true.
No, don't sell yourself.
No, but it but it's true.
No, it it is true.
And it's, you know, I talkedabout it with Sam too, of like a
little bit of fear of gettingit wrong or not knowing where to
start.
And I like this concept of likeorganizations working together
on solving some of these andlike figuring out how to be more
(36:54):
efficient because we're all inour little silos.
Like I only know this muchinformation.
And so if I'm aroundlike-minded people and
organizations that are alsotrying to solve this larger
issue, maybe we can figure itout together.
I mean, does everybody in thisalliance get along, Andrew?
Let me ask you that.
Are you all friends?
Andrew Schuyler (37:14):
Mostly, yes.
I no, I do.
Liz Canada (37:16):
And it's interesting because is it because you all
go hiking and like it's likelike it's a good activity?
And so you're like, oh, this isnice.
I like it up here.
Andrew Schuyler (37:25):
Right.
Yeah.
But I would say that theoutdoor economy, there's an
organization called Protect OurWinters that I do some work
with.
They call it the outdoor state.
And the outdoor state ismassive and it really hits all
political stripes.
You've got hunters, you've gotpeople who like to go hunt
birds, and you have birders,people who like to go look and
(37:46):
listen to birds, and you haveall kinds of people who are, you
know, your weekend warriors, toyour, you know, if you're a
walker, yeah, literally, if youthat's what you do, is you walk,
you're part of the outdoorstate.
I mean, the numbers show thatit's a half of the uh American
population participates in someway or another in the out an
(38:08):
outdoor recreation.
And those people need a lot ofthings.
And so the way we look at it iswow, that's impressive.
Let's go try to cater to thoseneeds, but let's do it
responsibly.
And that money, again, can helpgovernments too.
I mean, a very recent studyjust came out that said, now
this is on national parkland andit's across the US.
(38:29):
But we, you know, last Ichecked that White Mountain
National Forest is or federalland, $351 million a day are
spent in the US from people whoare accessing federal land.
Liz Canada (38:40):
Wow.
Andrew Schuyler (38:40):
And so you so you think about that's, you
know, again, that's everythingfrom someone going to a coffee
shop to renting a car to goingto a brewery.
But most local governments andstates are recognizing some tax
benefit from that as well.
And so, you know, let's let'ssort of appreciate this, we
would argue, get a handle on it,and then make it more
sustainable.
Because by its very nature, ifwe're not smart about it, well,
(39:02):
people aren't going to want togo, you know, to the Housatonic
River if it's full of PCBs.
Liz Canada (39:06):
Yeah, no.
They sure am not.
Not fun.
This is great.
Thank you for all of yourknowledge and information and
controversial stance, but Iwould like there to be a planet
for my kids to grow up andparticipate on, as well as their
children, should they choose tohave those stuff.
Andrew Schuyler (39:24):
Right.
Yeah.
Liz Canada (39:25):
My personal opinion.
Let's have a planet.
Our older kiddo, when he was insixth grade, now.
And we had been talking aboutlike middle school, there's all
these hormones, and everyonecould go from zero to a million
in like a second, and suddenlyyou're yelling and you don't
(39:48):
even know why.
It's like, why did they put usall in one building together?
And I said, to protect the restof us.
That's why they put you there.
To help all of us.
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