October 18, 2019 • 25 mins
Learn about the NINDS mission and our relationship with NIH as a whole from NINDS Director Dr. Walter Koroshetz and Deputy Director Dr. Nina Schor.
Building Up the Nerve is a podcast from the National Institute of Neurological Disorders and Stroke for neuroscience trainees that takes you through the life cycle of a grant from idea to award at NINDS with the people who make it happen. We know that applying for NIH funding can be daunting, but we’re here to help—it’s our job!
Related Resources:
https://www.ninds.nih.gov/About-NINDS/Who-We-Are/Directors-Corner
https://www.ninds.nih.gov/Funding/Training-Career-Development
Follow @NINDSdirector and @Schor_N
This episode has been edited since its original publication.
Transcript: http://ninds.buzzsprout.com/558574/1878416-episode-1-get-to-know-ninds
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Lauren (00:02):
Welcome to the National Institute of Neurological Disorders
and Stroke’s Building Up the Nerve,a podcast for neuroscience trainees
that takes you through the life cycleof a grant from idea to award at NINDS
with the people who make it happen.
We know that applying for NIHfunding can be daunting, but
we’re here to help—it’s our job!
Marguerite Matthews (00:22):
Hello.
I'm Marguerite Matthews, a healthprogram specialist at NINDS.
Lauren (00:25):
and I'm Lauren Ullrich, a scientific program manager at NINDS.
And we're the hosts ofBuilding Up the Nerve.
On this episode we're going to start withNINDS itself, who we are, and what we do.
So before we start, I want to state thedisclaimer that everything that we talk
about may only be relevant for NINDS.
So if you're applying to a different NIHInstitute or Center, it's always best
(00:48):
to check with them about their policies.
So I thought to start maybe, Marguerite,you could talk about what was your biggest
surprise when you came to work for NINDS?
Marguerite (00:56):
My biggest surprise is that NINDS is not all of NIH.
Um, no two ICs are alike.
I had the opportunity to work inthe Office of the Director when
I first started at NIH and NINDSis not like a lot of typical ICs.
But it's just interesting tolearn a lot of the intricacies.
(01:16):
There's so many things that are quiteunique and I think really help make
NINDS such a great place to work, butalso the research, you can tell how
vibrant it is by the way we operate.
What about you Lauren?
Lauren Ullr (01:29):
That was my biggest surprise, too, even as a trainee
who had applied for fellowships,realizing just how different each
of the different institutes were.
And so now I often use the metaphorof sort of a federated model where
we have the federal governmentthat's NIH OD that has some policies
that we all have to abide by.
But then we also have like the stategovernments, which are the ICs, that set
(01:53):
their own policies on certain things.
And that has been probably the thingthat I try to communicate the most.
So, hopefully we can demystify alittle bit what we do here and what
our mission is in this episode.
Marguerite Matt (02:10):
Yes, so joining us today to talk about NINDS and what
makes us awesome is Dr. Walter Koroshetz,the Director of NINDS and Dr. Nina
Schor, the Deputy Director of NINDS.
Welcome.
Can you tell us a littlebit about yourselves?
Walter Koroshetz (02:26):
So I'm Walter, I'm the director and I do what
everyone else tells me to do.
[laughter] Somewhat facetiously.
But yeah, no, my job is to listen topeople outside of NIH, scientists,
patients, disease organizationsand people inside of NIH, the
great staff that we have here.
And then we jointly make decisions,but I have to sign off on those.
(02:49):
So I do a lot of email.
I came in 2007 as the deputy director.
So I had Nina's old job and I alwaystell Nina, that's the fun job [laughter]
Before I started here, I was a Professorof Neurology at the Mass General Hospital
in Boston, where I was for 26 years, andI did a combination of research, practice,
(03:12):
and also ran the training program.
So I had a very varied career in my life.
I had a passion, which was bicycleriding, [laughter] but I had an
accident and that might be overand so I'm looking for a new one.
Anybody has any suggestions?
Let me know.
Lauren Ullrich (03:29):
Alright so, they should tweet at you?
Marguerite Matthews (03:29):
Right.
Nina Schor (03:30):
Something sedentary.
Walter Koroshetz (03:31):
Something sedentary is right.
Nina (03:34):
So I'm the Deputy Director here and one of the things that
made me take the position of DeputyDirector is that it is a position
with a very nebulous job description.
And I am a mixture of pinch hitterwhen Walter isn't around or isn't
(03:56):
able to do five things at once and theperson who kind of looks around and
says,"what's missing from the portfolioand what could I provide that maybe
nobody has thought of doing beforethat might make the Institute better?"
I also, along with Walter, am someone,an extra person to listen and to field
(04:19):
questions and to deal with concerns.
Often I think both of us will hearfantastic ideas, from either outside
or inside people, that are ideas thatare easily implemented by us, but that
we just didn't happen to think of.
And so, that's a real joy of the job toreally be able to tap into the talent
(04:41):
all around you and say, how do we use itto make us better than we were before?
So, I know I always talk like I know whatI'm talking about in this job, but I've
only been here about a year and a half.
So probably if you ask me five yearsfrom now, I'll have a different
answer for what this job is.
But I spent the rest of my career, muchlike Walter did before he came to NIH, in
(05:05):
academia; 20 years of it at the Universityof Pittsburgh and almost 12 years of
it at the University of Rochester.
And, also like Walter, I sortof came up through the ranks
in those academic institutions.
In Pittsburgh, I ran the Child NeurologyDivision, I ran a training program when
(05:28):
I moved to Rochester, it was really tobecome the chair of the Department of
Pediatrics and, in that capacity, gotvery involved in research and teaching
and clinical work and kept my own labgoing really up until I arrived here.
And then I guess you want to knowabout hobbies or passions, and that--in
(05:51):
a way that's an easy one for me.
I am nowhere near as athletic asWalter is and that will never happen.
So, um, so I love music and I love tocreate music and to play music and get
involved with musical groups mostly as akeyboardist, but I play a number of other
(06:12):
instruments and uh, and I write poetry.
I love--and to me I thinkof those as the same thing.
I write poetry sometimes.
It almost doesn't meananything in particular.
It's just the words sound likea piece of music would sound.
Marguerite Matthews (06:27):
What's your favorite genre of music to play?
Nin (06:29):
You know, it's interesting.
I have two answers to that.
One is what is often pejorativelycalled"easy listening." Because I mean,
in my current involvement in careerand so forth, if it feels like work,
then it's not serving the purpose.
Marguerite Matthews (06:44):
Right.
Nina Schor (06:45):
I mean, music has to be relaxation.
So I very rarely pick up music.
I just play by ear.
I'll hear something onthe radio or whatever.
And then the other thing is I was veryinvolved in Pittsburgh in a klezmer band
and played with them for about four years.
And I still love klezmer music.
(07:06):
It, just something about it.
Lauren Ullrich (07:13):
So I thought maybe we could start--if
one of you wanted to briefly explain,what is the mission of NINDS?
Walter Koroshetz (07:24):
Well, the mission is pretty simple.
We're trying to advance the understandingof how the brain and nervous system
works and then to translate thatknowledge into treatments for people
with neurological diseases and stroke.
So it's a very, kind of, twopart but connected mission.
Marguerite Matthews (07:41):
What do you see as the role of training
in advancing the NINDS mission?
Nina Sch (07:47):
Yeah, I think the most concrete role of training is to create
and perpetuate the optimum workforceto carry out the mission of NINDS.
I mean, the mission of NINDSdoesn't just take place within the
proverbial four walls of NINDS, ittakes place all over the country and
in some measure all over the world.
(08:09):
And it behooves us, I think, if we aregoing to have the expectation that people
will partner with us to create innovativeways of understanding and treating
disease, that we also do our part tobring those people along and to see to
it that people who represent differentgroups that may have different perceptions
(08:33):
or realities of illness and differentchallenges in dealing with those illnesses
are represented in the workforce.
Walter Koroshetz (08:42):
Yeah, I would just add that the great thing about
neuroscience now is that there are newtools that are coming on the scene to
allow people to do things that peoplein past generations couldn't do.
And a lot of the people inmy generation are too old to
learn how to use those tools.
So a lot of the possibilities forpotential breakthroughs are really with the younger folks coming in,
(09:02):
early career stage investigators,postdocs, graduate students, they're
the ones who are generally workingon these, with these new technologies
that are really quite powerful now.
Ni (09:16):
The other thing that I think we should say about that is that all of
these new technologies have the potentialto draw in a diverse workforce from the
standpoint of skillset and training.
So, you know, in the past we thoughtof neuroscientists as just biologists
of a particular ilk, but these newtechnologies require us to have
(09:39):
computer scientists and engineers andphysicists to come and join with us and
try to figure the nervous system out.
Lauren Ullri (09:48):
So, as I mentioned earlier, applicants often see NIH
as a monolith, but the different ICsoften have surprisingly different
policies and practices from each other.
So I was wondering if you could talka little bit about NINDS' relationship
with NIH as a whole and how do we workwith the other institutes and centers as
(10:09):
well as the Office of the NIH Director?
Walter Koroshetz (10:12):
Well, NIH is very complicated.
You're absolutely right about that.
There are 27 institutes andcenters and they all get their own
individual budget from Congress.
And so each is responsible for thebest stewardship of those funds.
And depending on the area of science,they move in different directions.
And so, the variety is actuallya strength in many cases.
(10:35):
But there are certain thingswhere, to get things done, the
institutes have to come together.
And we're very lucky in neurosciencethat we have what's called the
Blueprint for Neuroscience, whichis all the neuroscience institutes,
13 of them, sit around the tableand make decisions to fund things
that are going to raise all boats.
So we have very good rapport with allthe other neuroscience institutes, which
(10:58):
has served us very well, particularlynow, we have programs that are
multi-institute and center such as theBRAIN Initiative, which has many of
the neuroscience institutes involved.
And also, the new HEAL Initiative, Helpingto End Addiction Long-term, which is also
multiple different institutes workingon both the pain side of this to develop
(11:19):
better ways of managing pain, whichour institute leads, and more ways of
preventing addiction and overdose deaths.
And that's what the NationalInstitute of Drug Abuse leads.
And then the other program, which we'realso very collaborative with is the
Alzheimer's disease and related dementiasprogram to try to make a dent in the
growing dementia burden of illness withNational Institute of Aging, National
(11:43):
Heart, Lung and Blood Institute.
And, uh, so a lots of things that go onat the grand stage are multi-institute,
but at NINDS, we feel that, you know,it's our job to build a cadre of
investigators that are going to be veryfocused on supporting our mission as well.
And, uh, we've, I think beenvery successful at doing that.
(12:04):
And I'll say it right out front, Ithink we're the best institute at NIH.
Margueri (12:09):
I would have to agree!
Walter (12:10):
Dr. Schor, do you agree?
Nina Scho (12:10):
I would, you know, I, I must say in my years in academia,
27 of those years, I was NIH-funded.
But not always from the same institute.
And so I had funds from, uh, threeinstitutes including NINDS, and it
(12:31):
impresses me even more now that I'mhere, that at NINDS, the program
officers, the people who actuallymanage the funded grants, take a much
different level of interest in not justthe science of the projects, but in
the people out in the field that areactually carrying those projects out.
(12:54):
And so it is not unusual for one ofour program officers to look at a
specific aims page and mentor a newinvestigator through, not the nitty
gritty details of the science, but how doyou tell the story, how do you put this
project on paper so somebody gets it?
(13:15):
And the stewardship that they showand the advocacy that they show from
the standpoint of making sure thatthe best science actually gets funded
and gets out there is very differentfrom what I saw at other institutes.
So I would agree with you.
Lauren Ullrich (13:33):
And you'll meet some of those people, uh,
throughout the rest of this podcast.
Marguerite Matth (13:37):
Yes, um, and I think to your point, Nina, one of the
things that makes NINDS such a greatplace is how we're organized here.
So, can one of you sort of describeto our listeners how NINDS is
organized and how training sortof fits into that organization?
Walter K (13:54):
So again, there's many different pieces to NINDS as well as NIH.
So let's stick with, firstof all, the training.
We have a training office and they workto bring folks who are in college, even,
graduate school, residency programs,fellowship programs, to the point where
(14:15):
they can take part in this major effort tounderstand the nervous system and develop
treatments for neurological disorders.
So we're very proud of the work we dothere, we're always trying to do better.
Then we, we go and think about,well, after your training then,
where would you go into NINDS andwe have three divisions of science.
(14:36):
One is called the Division ofNeuroscience, which has our basic
science programs and it has ourbasic mechanisms of disease programs.
And that's where most of our budget is,probably 65 to 70% of our budget comes
out of that division of neuroscience whereyou'll meet some of the program directors
in the podcast who are responsiblefor particular areas of science.
(14:58):
So, if you have a grant thatfits in our mission, there'll be
somebody who is really on yourgrant, and that's a program officer.
And then we have the Division of ClinicalResearch, which is very adept at running
clinical trials, clinical trial networks.
And then we have a Division ofTranslational Research which is very
(15:19):
adept at developing programs thatwould bring a potential treatment
through all the steps needed to getFDA approval to go into patients and
hopefully then pass off into industry.
We have those three divisionshere in the science at NINDS.
And then just to round it out we have aDivision of Extramural Activities that
basically oversees all of the thingsthat cut across those three science
(15:43):
divisions and we have an IntramuralScience Division which has a very
robust research going on in the Bethesdacampus, both clinical and basic research.
And then we have the Office ofthe Director, which has a lot
of the groups that communicateNINDS's mission to scientists, to
the public, to the legislature.
(16:03):
And also we have the businesspeople who are watching the dollars.
So that's overall all the nooksand crannies here at NINDS.
Lauren U (16:12):
So one of the goals of this podcast is to really shine a light on
the way that we do things here at NINDS.
Is there anything in particular thatapplicants need to know about the way
that we work that might be differentfrom other institutes or centers?
Nina S (16:27):
So, you know, this would probably fall under the subheading
of a shameless plug, [laughter] butI think you did say that we need to
highlight what it is that we do uniquely.
So we have just initiated a few monthsago, a strategic planning process that is
in some ways similar, but not exactly thesame, to what most academic institutions
(16:54):
do, but very, very different from whatother institutes have done at NIH.
And so the way we've done this is tohave a sort of an overarching leadership
committee and to have that steeringcommittee oversee the function and
membership of four types of task forcesand those task forces are roughly related
(17:21):
to the science of NINDS, and there aretwo of those, one for intramural science
and one for extramural science, which arevery, very different from one another.
But then the other three task forcesare combined intramural and extramural.
Really to say, are there things that wecan do to facilitate training the optimum
(17:46):
workforce in exactly the right way onthe out--most of the people we train are
people that are going to go back out intothe non-NIH campus workforce, but also
are there lessons that we can learn fromwhat we do in that to make the training we
do on campus better than it currently is.
(18:06):
There's a group that'sdedicated to communication.
How do we communicate not only amongourselves in between intramural and
extramural, but how do we communicate withthe scientific community outside of NIH?
And how do we communicate with lay peoplewho are going to be the beneficiaries
(18:27):
of the things that are created in thescientific community and really should
inform us what would be the best thingsfrom their standpoint for us to work on.
And then there's a final committee,a task force that's dedicated to
a workforce and workplace culture.
How can we create the optimal environmentin which for people to work in NIH
(18:52):
and are there lessons that we mightlearn from that, that we could pass
on to our colleagues at academicinstitutions around the country.
So through this whole process, very muchlike other institutes at NIH, we will
be asking and creating opportunitiesfor public input to our deliberations.
(19:13):
We can't do this by ourselves andwe're required by law not to do this by
ourselves, to actually get the publicengaged and to have them weigh in on this.
But I think many of the other instituteswill have an outside panel come in and
do the whole process of recommendingto them what they ought to be doing.
(19:37):
And we felt very strongly that because weare on the inside, that the process and
the questions that we ask the public oughtto come first from us, but that then we
ought to be listeners just as Walter andI are right here on the campus to things
that come in from the public and we oughtto allow that to guide our discussion.
(20:00):
Linked to the NINDS website is arequest for input from the public.
We've, we've already gotten40 or 50 responses, but it's
open until November 1st.
If you go to NINDS.nih.gov, you will see alink that pops up to the RFI that you can
(20:21):
actually put in on any or on all of thefour areas to actually help us do this and
help guide the discussions that we have.
But this won't be the only opportunitywe're going to bring the public in
many times over during this process.
Walter Korosh (20:39):
You know, from my point of view, the big danger at NIH
is kind of resting on your laurelsbecause, since you control the money,
a lot of people are not gonna criticizeyou and you may be doing a terrible job
for 10 years before you figure it out.
So the key after the leadership at NINDSis always trying to do things better.
How do we do things better?
(21:00):
And that podcast is a great exampleof how do we reach out to people and
trainees and get them interested inNINDS research and, and enable them
to kind of see how they could, youknow, negotiate their way through.
But there is, there's a long listof things that we could do better
and we have to just keep moving.
And luckily we have a great staffthat's willing to put out the extra
(21:20):
effort and time and creativity tohelp us tackle these challenges.
Marguerite Mat (21:25):
So even with all the differences between ICs, both how
they operate and how they interact withthe extramural community, we manage to
bring it all together and work togetherboth in terms of multi-IC initiatives
such as HEAL, but also working alltogether to advance the NIH mission.
So how does that happen?
(21:46):
How do you have these very differententities coming together for common goals?
Walter (21:51):
Well, I think, you know, depending on what the question is, a lot
of the expertise is spread across NIH.
And the HEAL Initiative isa great example of that.
So we're the lead institute for painresearch, but if you're talking about back
pain, musculoskeletal pain, then there'sthe National Institute for Arthritis
and Musculoskeletal and Skin Disorders.
(22:11):
And so to run a major program tryingto understand how better treat
back pain, which is actually theleading cause of disability in the
US right now, that Institute iscritical to moving that forward.
S,o it's basically, we have programdirectors at our institute, as
we talked about, and they workwith the program directors at
NIAMS on a big project like this.
And I think it's a win-win for everyone.
(22:32):
[Music playing]
Marguerite Mat (22:41):
Well, we want to thank you for joining us for this podcast.
I think it speaks a lot to NINDSas a whole to have its leadership
take a priority in training.
Can each of you provide one lastpiece of advice for our listeners?
So, I would say the thing thatstood me in the best stead in a career
in science is finding that middle groundbetween having breadth to your interests
(23:06):
and your knowledge base and your skillsetand focusing in on a particular scientific
problem or medical problem or issue.
I think everything in science isinteresting and so there's the
danger of spreading yourself sothin and so broadly that you don't
become an expert in anything.
And there's also the danger ofbecoming an expert in something so
(23:30):
deeply that you don't know anythingtwo inches to the left or right.
And I think finding that middleground is challenging, but the
most important thing for forginga successful career in science.
Walter Kor (23:45):
That's what I think.
Very good advice for sure.
And I think the other thing I'd say isthat the data we have and actually was
just recently published, that, it's reallypersistence that matters most in science.
You find your passion in science and thenyou keep working to get somebody to fund
it, but persistence definitely pays off.
In this world we live in, the scienceworld, rejection is an everyday event.
(24:08):
You do an experiment, it doesn't work.
You try it again, it doesn't work.
And then you know, youkeep trying and you get it.
And trying to get a grant, samething, may not work the first time.
Keep trying.
You're going to get it.
So I would go back to my, oneof my favorite movies, "Galaxy
Quest" where the...
Marguerite Matthews (24:27):
[laughter]
Walter Koroshetz (24:27):
...where the message is,"Never
give up, never surrender."
Marguer (24:28):
"Never surrender." Yes.
And we are here to help.
So please continue to listen to thepodcast and reach out to us because
we do want you to succeed and youdon't have to persist by yourself.
Lauren Ullrich (24:42):
Exactly.
And hopefully listening to thispodcast is the first step in empowering
yourself to learn how the process works.
Well.
That's all that we have time fortoday on Building Up the Nerve.
So I want to say a huge thank youagain to our guests this week for
sharing their expertise and alsothank you to Program Director Bob
(25:04):
Riddle for our theme song and music.
So we'll see you next time when we takeyou through the grant process and the
major players that keep the train moving.
You can find all episodes of thispodcast and many more grant application
resources on the web at NINDS.nih.gov.
Marguerite Mat (25:18):
You can email us questions at NINDSNervePod@nih.gov.
Make sure you subscribe to the podcaston Apple podcasts or your favorite
podcast app so you don't miss an episode.
We'll see you next time.
Welcome to the National Institute of Neurological Disorders
and Stroke’s Building Up the Nerve,a podcast for neuroscience trainees
that takes you through the life cycleof a grant from idea to award at NINDS
with the people who make it happen.
We know that applying for NIHfunding can be daunting, but
we’re here to help—it’s our job!
Marguerite Matthews (00:22):
Hello.
I'm Marguerite Matthews, a healthprogram specialist at NINDS.
Lauren (00:25):
and I'm Lauren Ullrich, a scientific program manager at NINDS.
And we're the hosts ofBuilding Up the Nerve.
On this episode we're going to start withNINDS itself, who we are, and what we do.
So before we start, I want to state thedisclaimer that everything that we talk
about may only be relevant for NINDS.
So if you're applying to a different NIHInstitute or Center, it's always best
(00:48):
to check with them about their policies.
So I thought to start maybe, Marguerite,you could talk about what was your biggest
surprise when you came to work for NINDS?
Marguerite (00:56):
My biggest surprise is that NINDS is not all of NIH.
Um, no two ICs are alike.
I had the opportunity to work inthe Office of the Director when
I first started at NIH and NINDSis not like a lot of typical ICs.
But it's just interesting tolearn a lot of the intricacies.
(01:16):
There's so many things that are quiteunique and I think really help make
NINDS such a great place to work, butalso the research, you can tell how
vibrant it is by the way we operate.
What about you Lauren?
Lauren Ullr (01:29):
That was my biggest surprise, too, even as a trainee
who had applied for fellowships,realizing just how different each
of the different institutes were.
And so now I often use the metaphorof sort of a federated model where
we have the federal governmentthat's NIH OD that has some policies
that we all have to abide by.
But then we also have like the stategovernments, which are the ICs, that set
(01:53):
their own policies on certain things.
And that has been probably the thingthat I try to communicate the most.
So, hopefully we can demystify alittle bit what we do here and what
our mission is in this episode.
Marguerite Matt (02:10):
Yes, so joining us today to talk about NINDS and what
makes us awesome is Dr. Walter Koroshetz,the Director of NINDS and Dr. Nina
Schor, the Deputy Director of NINDS.
Welcome.
Can you tell us a littlebit about yourselves?
Walter Koroshetz (02:26):
So I'm Walter, I'm the director and I do what
everyone else tells me to do.
[laughter] Somewhat facetiously.
But yeah, no, my job is to listen topeople outside of NIH, scientists,
patients, disease organizationsand people inside of NIH, the
great staff that we have here.
And then we jointly make decisions,but I have to sign off on those.
(02:49):
So I do a lot of email.
I came in 2007 as the deputy director.
So I had Nina's old job and I alwaystell Nina, that's the fun job [laughter]
Before I started here, I was a Professorof Neurology at the Mass General Hospital
in Boston, where I was for 26 years, andI did a combination of research, practice,
(03:12):
and also ran the training program.
So I had a very varied career in my life.
I had a passion, which was bicycleriding, [laughter] but I had an
accident and that might be overand so I'm looking for a new one.
Anybody has any suggestions?
Let me know.
Lauren Ullrich (03:29):
Alright so, they should tweet at you?
Marguerite Matthews (03:29):
Right.
Nina Schor (03:30):
Something sedentary.
Walter Koroshetz (03:31):
Something sedentary is right.
Nina (03:34):
So I'm the Deputy Director here and one of the things that
made me take the position of DeputyDirector is that it is a position
with a very nebulous job description.
And I am a mixture of pinch hitterwhen Walter isn't around or isn't
(03:56):
able to do five things at once and theperson who kind of looks around and
says,"what's missing from the portfolioand what could I provide that maybe
nobody has thought of doing beforethat might make the Institute better?"
I also, along with Walter, am someone,an extra person to listen and to field
(04:19):
questions and to deal with concerns.
Often I think both of us will hearfantastic ideas, from either outside
or inside people, that are ideas thatare easily implemented by us, but that
we just didn't happen to think of.
And so, that's a real joy of the job toreally be able to tap into the talent
(04:41):
all around you and say, how do we use itto make us better than we were before?
So, I know I always talk like I know whatI'm talking about in this job, but I've
only been here about a year and a half.
So probably if you ask me five yearsfrom now, I'll have a different
answer for what this job is.
But I spent the rest of my career, muchlike Walter did before he came to NIH, in
(05:05):
academia; 20 years of it at the Universityof Pittsburgh and almost 12 years of
it at the University of Rochester.
And, also like Walter, I sortof came up through the ranks
in those academic institutions.
In Pittsburgh, I ran the Child NeurologyDivision, I ran a training program when
(05:28):
I moved to Rochester, it was really tobecome the chair of the Department of
Pediatrics and, in that capacity, gotvery involved in research and teaching
and clinical work and kept my own labgoing really up until I arrived here.
And then I guess you want to knowabout hobbies or passions, and that--in
(05:51):
a way that's an easy one for me.
I am nowhere near as athletic asWalter is and that will never happen.
So, um, so I love music and I love tocreate music and to play music and get
involved with musical groups mostly as akeyboardist, but I play a number of other
(06:12):
instruments and uh, and I write poetry.
I love--and to me I thinkof those as the same thing.
I write poetry sometimes.
It almost doesn't meananything in particular.
It's just the words sound likea piece of music would sound.
Marguerite Matthews (06:27):
What's your favorite genre of music to play?
Nin (06:29):
You know, it's interesting.
I have two answers to that.
One is what is often pejorativelycalled"easy listening." Because I mean,
in my current involvement in careerand so forth, if it feels like work,
then it's not serving the purpose.
Marguerite Matthews (06:44):
Right.
Nina Schor (06:45):
I mean, music has to be relaxation.
So I very rarely pick up music.
I just play by ear.
I'll hear something onthe radio or whatever.
And then the other thing is I was veryinvolved in Pittsburgh in a klezmer band
and played with them for about four years.
And I still love klezmer music.
(07:06):
It, just something about it.
Lauren Ullrich (07:13):
So I thought maybe we could start--if
one of you wanted to briefly explain,what is the mission of NINDS?
Walter Koroshetz (07:24):
Well, the mission is pretty simple.
We're trying to advance the understandingof how the brain and nervous system
works and then to translate thatknowledge into treatments for people
with neurological diseases and stroke.
So it's a very, kind of, twopart but connected mission.
Marguerite Matthews (07:41):
What do you see as the role of training
in advancing the NINDS mission?
Nina Sch (07:47):
Yeah, I think the most concrete role of training is to create
and perpetuate the optimum workforceto carry out the mission of NINDS.
I mean, the mission of NINDSdoesn't just take place within the
proverbial four walls of NINDS, ittakes place all over the country and
in some measure all over the world.
(08:09):
And it behooves us, I think, if we aregoing to have the expectation that people
will partner with us to create innovativeways of understanding and treating
disease, that we also do our part tobring those people along and to see to
it that people who represent differentgroups that may have different perceptions
(08:33):
or realities of illness and differentchallenges in dealing with those illnesses
are represented in the workforce.
Walter Koroshetz (08:42):
Yeah, I would just add that the great thing about
neuroscience now is that there are newtools that are coming on the scene to
allow people to do things that peoplein past generations couldn't do.
And a lot of the people inmy generation are too old to
learn how to use those tools.
So a lot of the possibilities forpotential breakthroughs are really with the younger folks coming in,
(09:02):
early career stage investigators,postdocs, graduate students, they're
the ones who are generally workingon these, with these new technologies
that are really quite powerful now.
Ni (09:16):
The other thing that I think we should say about that is that all of
these new technologies have the potentialto draw in a diverse workforce from the
standpoint of skillset and training.
So, you know, in the past we thoughtof neuroscientists as just biologists
of a particular ilk, but these newtechnologies require us to have
(09:39):
computer scientists and engineers andphysicists to come and join with us and
try to figure the nervous system out.
Lauren Ullri (09:48):
So, as I mentioned earlier, applicants often see NIH
as a monolith, but the different ICsoften have surprisingly different
policies and practices from each other.
So I was wondering if you could talka little bit about NINDS' relationship
with NIH as a whole and how do we workwith the other institutes and centers as
(10:09):
well as the Office of the NIH Director?
Walter Koroshetz (10:12):
Well, NIH is very complicated.
You're absolutely right about that.
There are 27 institutes andcenters and they all get their own
individual budget from Congress.
And so each is responsible for thebest stewardship of those funds.
And depending on the area of science,they move in different directions.
And so, the variety is actuallya strength in many cases.
(10:35):
But there are certain thingswhere, to get things done, the
institutes have to come together.
And we're very lucky in neurosciencethat we have what's called the
Blueprint for Neuroscience, whichis all the neuroscience institutes,
13 of them, sit around the tableand make decisions to fund things
that are going to raise all boats.
So we have very good rapport with allthe other neuroscience institutes, which
(10:58):
has served us very well, particularlynow, we have programs that are
multi-institute and center such as theBRAIN Initiative, which has many of
the neuroscience institutes involved.
And also, the new HEAL Initiative, Helpingto End Addiction Long-term, which is also
multiple different institutes workingon both the pain side of this to develop
(11:19):
better ways of managing pain, whichour institute leads, and more ways of
preventing addiction and overdose deaths.
And that's what the NationalInstitute of Drug Abuse leads.
And then the other program, which we'realso very collaborative with is the
Alzheimer's disease and related dementiasprogram to try to make a dent in the
growing dementia burden of illness withNational Institute of Aging, National
(11:43):
Heart, Lung and Blood Institute.
And, uh, so a lots of things that go onat the grand stage are multi-institute,
but at NINDS, we feel that, you know,it's our job to build a cadre of
investigators that are going to be veryfocused on supporting our mission as well.
And, uh, we've, I think beenvery successful at doing that.
(12:04):
And I'll say it right out front, Ithink we're the best institute at NIH.
Margueri (12:09):
I would have to agree!
Walter (12:10):
Dr. Schor, do you agree?
Nina Scho (12:10):
I would, you know, I, I must say in my years in academia,
27 of those years, I was NIH-funded.
But not always from the same institute.
And so I had funds from, uh, threeinstitutes including NINDS, and it
(12:31):
impresses me even more now that I'mhere, that at NINDS, the program
officers, the people who actuallymanage the funded grants, take a much
different level of interest in not justthe science of the projects, but in
the people out in the field that areactually carrying those projects out.
(12:54):
And so it is not unusual for one ofour program officers to look at a
specific aims page and mentor a newinvestigator through, not the nitty
gritty details of the science, but how doyou tell the story, how do you put this
project on paper so somebody gets it?
(13:15):
And the stewardship that they showand the advocacy that they show from
the standpoint of making sure thatthe best science actually gets funded
and gets out there is very differentfrom what I saw at other institutes.
So I would agree with you.
Lauren Ullrich (13:33):
And you'll meet some of those people, uh,
throughout the rest of this podcast.
Marguerite Matth (13:37):
Yes, um, and I think to your point, Nina, one of the
things that makes NINDS such a greatplace is how we're organized here.
So, can one of you sort of describeto our listeners how NINDS is
organized and how training sortof fits into that organization?
Walter K (13:54):
So again, there's many different pieces to NINDS as well as NIH.
So let's stick with, firstof all, the training.
We have a training office and they workto bring folks who are in college, even,
graduate school, residency programs,fellowship programs, to the point where
(14:15):
they can take part in this major effort tounderstand the nervous system and develop
treatments for neurological disorders.
So we're very proud of the work we dothere, we're always trying to do better.
Then we, we go and think about,well, after your training then,
where would you go into NINDS andwe have three divisions of science.
(14:36):
One is called the Division ofNeuroscience, which has our basic
science programs and it has ourbasic mechanisms of disease programs.
And that's where most of our budget is,probably 65 to 70% of our budget comes
out of that division of neuroscience whereyou'll meet some of the program directors
in the podcast who are responsiblefor particular areas of science.
(14:58):
So, if you have a grant thatfits in our mission, there'll be
somebody who is really on yourgrant, and that's a program officer.
And then we have the Division of ClinicalResearch, which is very adept at running
clinical trials, clinical trial networks.
And then we have a Division ofTranslational Research which is very
(15:19):
adept at developing programs thatwould bring a potential treatment
through all the steps needed to getFDA approval to go into patients and
hopefully then pass off into industry.
We have those three divisionshere in the science at NINDS.
And then just to round it out we have aDivision of Extramural Activities that
basically oversees all of the thingsthat cut across those three science
(15:43):
divisions and we have an IntramuralScience Division which has a very
robust research going on in the Bethesdacampus, both clinical and basic research.
And then we have the Office ofthe Director, which has a lot
of the groups that communicateNINDS's mission to scientists, to
the public, to the legislature.
(16:03):
And also we have the businesspeople who are watching the dollars.
So that's overall all the nooksand crannies here at NINDS.
Lauren U (16:12):
So one of the goals of this podcast is to really shine a light on
the way that we do things here at NINDS.
Is there anything in particular thatapplicants need to know about the way
that we work that might be differentfrom other institutes or centers?
Nina S (16:27):
So, you know, this would probably fall under the subheading
of a shameless plug, [laughter] butI think you did say that we need to
highlight what it is that we do uniquely.
So we have just initiated a few monthsago, a strategic planning process that is
in some ways similar, but not exactly thesame, to what most academic institutions
(16:54):
do, but very, very different from whatother institutes have done at NIH.
And so the way we've done this is tohave a sort of an overarching leadership
committee and to have that steeringcommittee oversee the function and
membership of four types of task forcesand those task forces are roughly related
(17:21):
to the science of NINDS, and there aretwo of those, one for intramural science
and one for extramural science, which arevery, very different from one another.
But then the other three task forcesare combined intramural and extramural.
Really to say, are there things that wecan do to facilitate training the optimum
(17:46):
workforce in exactly the right way onthe out--most of the people we train are
people that are going to go back out intothe non-NIH campus workforce, but also
are there lessons that we can learn fromwhat we do in that to make the training we
do on campus better than it currently is.
(18:06):
There's a group that'sdedicated to communication.
How do we communicate not only amongourselves in between intramural and
extramural, but how do we communicate withthe scientific community outside of NIH?
And how do we communicate with lay peoplewho are going to be the beneficiaries
(18:27):
of the things that are created in thescientific community and really should
inform us what would be the best thingsfrom their standpoint for us to work on.
And then there's a final committee,a task force that's dedicated to
a workforce and workplace culture.
How can we create the optimal environmentin which for people to work in NIH
(18:52):
and are there lessons that we mightlearn from that, that we could pass
on to our colleagues at academicinstitutions around the country.
So through this whole process, very muchlike other institutes at NIH, we will
be asking and creating opportunitiesfor public input to our deliberations.
(19:13):
We can't do this by ourselves andwe're required by law not to do this by
ourselves, to actually get the publicengaged and to have them weigh in on this.
But I think many of the other instituteswill have an outside panel come in and
do the whole process of recommendingto them what they ought to be doing.
(19:37):
And we felt very strongly that because weare on the inside, that the process and
the questions that we ask the public oughtto come first from us, but that then we
ought to be listeners just as Walter andI are right here on the campus to things
that come in from the public and we oughtto allow that to guide our discussion.
(20:00):
Linked to the NINDS website is arequest for input from the public.
We've, we've already gotten40 or 50 responses, but it's
open until November 1st.
If you go to NINDS.nih.gov, you will see alink that pops up to the RFI that you can
(20:21):
actually put in on any or on all of thefour areas to actually help us do this and
help guide the discussions that we have.
But this won't be the only opportunitywe're going to bring the public in
many times over during this process.
Walter Korosh (20:39):
You know, from my point of view, the big danger at NIH
is kind of resting on your laurelsbecause, since you control the money,
a lot of people are not gonna criticizeyou and you may be doing a terrible job
for 10 years before you figure it out.
So the key after the leadership at NINDSis always trying to do things better.
How do we do things better?
(21:00):
And that podcast is a great exampleof how do we reach out to people and
trainees and get them interested inNINDS research and, and enable them
to kind of see how they could, youknow, negotiate their way through.
But there is, there's a long listof things that we could do better
and we have to just keep moving.
And luckily we have a great staffthat's willing to put out the extra
(21:20):
effort and time and creativity tohelp us tackle these challenges.
Marguerite Mat (21:25):
So even with all the differences between ICs, both how
they operate and how they interact withthe extramural community, we manage to
bring it all together and work togetherboth in terms of multi-IC initiatives
such as HEAL, but also working alltogether to advance the NIH mission.
So how does that happen?
(21:46):
How do you have these very differententities coming together for common goals?
Walter (21:51):
Well, I think, you know, depending on what the question is, a lot
of the expertise is spread across NIH.
And the HEAL Initiative isa great example of that.
So we're the lead institute for painresearch, but if you're talking about back
pain, musculoskeletal pain, then there'sthe National Institute for Arthritis
and Musculoskeletal and Skin Disorders.
(22:11):
And so to run a major program tryingto understand how better treat
back pain, which is actually theleading cause of disability in the
US right now, that Institute iscritical to moving that forward.
S,o it's basically, we have programdirectors at our institute, as
we talked about, and they workwith the program directors at
NIAMS on a big project like this.
And I think it's a win-win for everyone.
(22:32):
[Music playing]
Marguerite Mat (22:41):
Well, we want to thank you for joining us for this podcast.
I think it speaks a lot to NINDSas a whole to have its leadership
take a priority in training.
Can each of you provide one lastpiece of advice for our listeners?
So, I would say the thing thatstood me in the best stead in a career
in science is finding that middle groundbetween having breadth to your interests
(23:06):
and your knowledge base and your skillsetand focusing in on a particular scientific
problem or medical problem or issue.
I think everything in science isinteresting and so there's the
danger of spreading yourself sothin and so broadly that you don't
become an expert in anything.
And there's also the danger ofbecoming an expert in something so
(23:30):
deeply that you don't know anythingtwo inches to the left or right.
And I think finding that middleground is challenging, but the
most important thing for forginga successful career in science.
Walter Kor (23:45):
That's what I think.
Very good advice for sure.
And I think the other thing I'd say isthat the data we have and actually was
just recently published, that, it's reallypersistence that matters most in science.
You find your passion in science and thenyou keep working to get somebody to fund
it, but persistence definitely pays off.
In this world we live in, the scienceworld, rejection is an everyday event.
(24:08):
You do an experiment, it doesn't work.
You try it again, it doesn't work.
And then you know, youkeep trying and you get it.
And trying to get a grant, samething, may not work the first time.
Keep trying.
You're going to get it.
So I would go back to my, oneof my favorite movies, "Galaxy
Quest" where the...
Marguerite Matthews (24:27):
[laughter]
Walter Koroshetz (24:27):
...where the message is,"Never
give up, never surrender."
Marguer (24:28):
"Never surrender." Yes.
And we are here to help.
So please continue to listen to thepodcast and reach out to us because
we do want you to succeed and youdon't have to persist by yourself.
Lauren Ullrich (24:42):
Exactly.
And hopefully listening to thispodcast is the first step in empowering
yourself to learn how the process works.
Well.
That's all that we have time fortoday on Building Up the Nerve.
So I want to say a huge thank youagain to our guests this week for
sharing their expertise and alsothank you to Program Director Bob
(25:04):
Riddle for our theme song and music.
So we'll see you next time when we takeyou through the grant process and the
major players that keep the train moving.
You can find all episodes of thispodcast and many more grant application
resources on the web at NINDS.nih.gov.
Marguerite Mat (25:18):
You can email us questions at NINDSNervePod@nih.gov.
Make sure you subscribe to the podcaston Apple podcasts or your favorite
podcast app so you don't miss an episode.
We'll see you next time.
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