February 5, 2021 • 51 mins
The National Institute of Neurological Disorders and Stroke’s Building Up the Nerve is a podcast for neuroscience trainees that takes you through the components of a grant application with successful awardees. We know that applying for NIH funding can be daunting, but we’re here to help—it’s our job!
In this episode, our grantee guests explain how they crafted their NIH biosketches. We discuss the crucial sections of the biosketch, including how to describe why you are well-suited for your role in the project in the Personal Statement and how to determine what is significant enough to include in the Contributions to Science.
Featuring Tavita Garrett, Graduate Student at Oregon Health & Science University, Joy Franco, Graduate Student at Stanford University, Clark Rosensweig, PhD, Postdoctoral Fellow at Northwestern University, and Victoria Abraira, PhD, Assistant Professor at Rutgers University.
Resources
Chocolate chip cookie recipe: https://www.marthastewart.com/354939/cakey-chocolate-chip-cookies
Transcript available at http://ninds.buzzsprout.com/. This episode has been edited since its original publication.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Lauren (00:02):
Welcome to the National Institute of Neurological Disorders and
Stroke's Building Up the Nerve, a podcastfor neuroscience trainees that takes
you through the components of a grantapplication with successful awardees.
We know that applying for NIH fundingcan be daunting, but we are here to help.
It's our job.
Hi, I'm Lauren Ullrich, aprogram director at NINDS.
Marguerite M (00:25):
And I'm Marguerite Matthews, a scientific program manager
at NINDS, and we're your hosts today.
Lauren Ullrich (00:31):
This episode is about the biographical sketch.
We will focus especially on thepersonal statement and contributions
to science section of the biosketch.
Marguerite Ma (00:41):
And of course our disclaimer still applies everything we
talk about may only be relevant for NINDS.
So if you're applying to a different NIHInstitute or center, it's always best
to check with them about their policies.
Lauren Ull (01:02):
Our guests today are Tavita Garrett, Joy Franco, Dr. Clark
Rosensweig and Dr. Victoria Abraira.
Tavita Ga (01:13):
Um, my name is Tavita Garrett, and I am a PhD candidate, uh,
in the neuroscience graduate program atOregon health and science university.
And so what I study, uh, isa type of retinal ganglion
cell called an intrinsicallyphotosensitive retinal ganglion cell.
And so like rods and cones, they expressan ops and protein specifically melanopsin
(01:35):
uh, so they kind of have this built insensitivity to light, and we know that
these cells are involved in mediating,non-image-forming visual functions.
So, circadian rhythms, pupil reflexes,thermoregulation, and since, uh, you
know, these intrinsically photosensitive,retinal ganglion cells mediate many
(01:56):
different functions, and their axonsproject to many different brain
regions, you might think that thereare specialized subtypes responsible
for the functions that I described.
So I use a combination of mouse,brain slice, electrophysiology,
transgenic mice, confocal imaging,uh, and some other techniques to
dissect out and define these subtypes.
(02:18):
As far as NH awards that I havereceived, I have received an R01
supplement and I have applied foran F31 NRSA, which was recommended
for funding, but I declined it.
Hobbies and passions outside ofwork--I definitely like to go
skiiing, uh, play soccer, listeningto podcasts, coincidentally.
(02:41):
And right now I'm kind of just tryingto fill my house with plants that
I've grown from foods that I eat.
So I'm trying to grow a bunch of likemango and avocado plants right now.
It's a lot of fun.
Marguerite M (02:51):
Is this your first time, uh, being a green thumb or is this
something you did before the pandemic?
Tavita Garrett (02:56):
This Is absolutely my first.
I would not have considered myself someonewho could keep a bunch of plants alive.
Joy (03:05):
Hi, my name is Joy Franco.
I'm a PhD student in the mechanicalengineering department at Stanford.
I study the sense of touch in worms.
Uh, I look at mechanosensory neuronsand I look at how mechanosignaling is
propagated to the neuron itself, andthen how the neuron functions as a
mechanosensor in the neural circuit.
(03:25):
And then what other roles mechanosignalingmay be playing in, maintaining the neuron
and maintaining the health of the neuron.
So I am a D-SPAN scholar.
I received the D-SPAN fellowship, uh, inmy, I believe sixth year of my graduate
studies and I am on the F99 portionstill and will be applying for the K00
(03:48):
in the coming year outside of science.
I am a competitive cyclistand I also am a dog mama.
So, when I'm not in lab or analyzingdata, I am definitely either on
my bicycle or playing with my dog.
Clark Rosensweig (04:04):
Uh, hi, I'm Dr. Clark Rosensweig.
I am a post-doc obviously atNorthwestern university, um,
in the neurobiology department.
So in the past, I've applied forboth an F31 and an F32 and I got
both of those awards, um, which hasbeen hugely beneficial to my career.
Uh, so thank you NINDS.
(04:25):
And, uh, I'm a sleep researcher.
So, I think sleep is really one ofthe enduring mysteries in biology.
Uh, we don't know why we sleep.
What makes us tired?
What makes sleep such a crucial conservedbehavior despite its obvious drawbacks.
And, uh, we think that sleep is regulatedby both the circadian clock, which
controls timing and the sleep homeostat,which is basically just a way of saying
(04:48):
that the longer you're awake, the greateryour drive to go to sleep will be.
Um, and I think understanding themolecular underpinnings of this
latter process will give us an openingto investigate all of the other
questions that we have about sleep.
So to get at this question, uh, Iuse Drosophila as a model organism,
I have various genetic drivers that Ican use to manipulate their sleep and
(05:10):
wake behavior and their sleep drive.
Uh, and I'm coupling that with whole brainand targeted FACSseq of various neurons,
uh, to do RNA sequencing and try andidentify the molecules that are really
tracking with changes in sleep drive.
And, uh, just in terms of, uh, hobbiesand passions I have outside of work, um,
(05:32):
actually spent several years after collegedoing comedy writing and stand up comedy.
And I still like to occasionallydo a little bit of that.
And then I'm also areally big music lover.
So I spend a lot of time eitherplaying music or listening to music.
Victori (05:48):
Hi, my name is Victoria Abraira, and I am an Assistant Professor
at Rutgers university, and I just startedmy lab a little bit over two years ago.
We study actually the sense of touch.
So Joy, we have a lot in common.
So we study the sense of touch frommolecules all the way to circuits, um,
(06:09):
in a dish all the way to the mouse.
And we are very interested inunderstanding how touch helps
us to move, feel pain and, uh,even socialize with one another.
I've been fortunate enough tobe supported, uh, throughout
my career by the NIH.
So I had an F31 an F32, K, and,uh, and now a recently-funded R01.
(06:35):
So I went through the whole,um, through the whole gamut.
My passions are also cycling.
I'm a huge Peloton fan.
And so, yeah, I cycle a lot andmy other passion is baking with
my three and a half year old.
And we're slowly making our way throughMartha Stewart's book on cookies,
Lauren Ullrich (07:00):
any stand out cookies so far?
Victoria Abr (07:02):
So I always, every weekend, I always let my daughter pick
a cookie and there's like probablyover 300 recipes in some, some weeks
is like, these are really tough.
And so I try my best.
I've burned a lot of batches, but thestandout is definitely her cake, like
chocolate chip cookie that my daughterjust adores; it's like, it's like
(07:26):
a cake in a cookie, ii's delicious.
Lauren Ullr (07:29):
I'll definitely put it in the show notes so that our
listeners can bake along with you.
Marguerite Matthews (07:41):
Can each of you tell us how you approached your
personal statement for the particularaward that you are applying for?
Victoria Abraira (07:47):
I can start.
So I'll describe sort of my, how Iapproached the personal statement
from the K award perspective.
So the K award is a mentoring award forother young faculty or, or post-docs
transitioning to independence.
So the personal statement, and Iguess in my view, I really wanted
(08:09):
to paint a picture of the veryclear plan for this transition.
I wanted my personal statementto reflect the growth, right?
So the arc of my graduate andpostdoctoral training and how in my new
environment, I was going to leveragethis training with a current environment
(08:29):
to yield a product that was basicallygreater than the sum of its parts.
Right.
I really thought about it fromthe perspective of, of the
people reading it and saying,how should we fund this person?
Does this person have a goodtraining that within her current
environment, she will be successful.
And again, like I said, greaterthan the sum of its parts,
Clark Rosenswei (08:51):
yeah, Victoria, actually, it's interesting to me that
you had that, that sort of feeling thatyou wanted to approach different personal
statements from different directions,because I had that experience as well.
So when I felt like I was writingfor my F31, there was a very
specific, you know, set of thingsthat I wanted to tackle there.
But then when I started to write for theF32, it felt like the personal statement
(09:14):
needed to be something different.
That was really more about the arcof my career and loss about, you
know, some of the issues that Ihad encountered up until the F31.
Um, so I think having the foresightto, to think about, you know, what
does this particular applicationneed, um, is really critical.
Victoria Abraira (09:34):
Yeah.
What are they, you know,what is the announcement?
What are the key criteria?
And then how do I paint that picture?
Because it is a personal statement, right?
So it's about you as a person, andthese are things that can not be
addressed in any other application.
And so I think that you have to paint thatpicture really well for the reviewers.
Tavita Garrett (09:55):
Yeah.
Clark, I really like what you justsaid about the F31 personal statement,
uh, kind of explaining, you know, howyou got to graduate school and what
your plans were specifically for, youknow, your last years in grad school.
And that is pretty much high, approachedit side, just kind of thought, you know,
this is an opportunity to explain all ofthe choices that got me to this point.
(10:20):
Um, since I did kind of havea bit of a windy path, I did
two post-bac opportunities.
Um, you know, that might be strangeto someone so I can explain, you
know, this is why I did this.
Uh, this is what I learnedfrom these two experiences.
Um, so what I kind of did is to startoff by stating my long-term goals, my
research interests, how that affected,you know, my choice of graduate school.
(10:42):
Uh, and then, you know, all of thosekinds of past decisions that led me
up to this point, the lab that I wasin and really what I wanted to do to
kind of like put the bow, I guess,on, uh, the rest of my PhD research.
Joy Franc (10:56):
So, you know, similar to what others have said, I really
liked the way that it was phrasedin terms of looking specifically at
the award and what was the call for.
And, um, for me, it was demonstrating thatI was a really good fit for this award.
So my goal with my personalstatement was to really make that
(11:17):
information easily available towhoever was reviewing my biosketch.
I also had a very non-traditionalwinding path to my current place in my
PhD. So I felt like there was a ton ofinformation that I wanted to put into
the personal statement to say, Hey,like, yes, please, please pick me.
(11:37):
You have no idea how amazing this would befor me, but I also needed to organize that
information in a way that would be easilydigested by whoever was reviewing it.
Um, so we actually chose, um, so Isay we, because my mentors helped me
with my personal statement of course.
And so I actually chose to break itup into sections because I wanted to
(11:59):
touch on each really critical partthat I felt like was important to
seeing the whole picture of who I am.
So including scientific careergoals, um, you know, background
and goals, but then also talkingabout, um, you know, adversity that
I had faced along the PhD path.
Um, and then also sort of explaining,you know, if someone were to look at when
(12:24):
I graduated high school and then lookat when I started my PhD program, there
are a lot of questions that come up.
Um, and I faced those questions before.
So I knew that I needed to addressthat and explain why was it that
it took me so long, um, after highschool to get to my PhD program.
Lauren Ullrich (12:42):
Great.
So this is a great segue.
We're going to talk about each ofthose sort of sections in sequence.
So to start, um, how did you frameyour scientific interests and
goals in relation to the specificaward that you were applying to?
Victoria Abra (13:00):
So, you know, you have to really look at the, the purpose
of the funding announcement, right?
So for my K01, it's a mentored award.
And so that means is for youngfaculty, uh, to establish their career.
So there has to be, you have to reallyarticulate your training, but then
you also have to articulate how thecurrent mentors in your environment
(13:21):
will help you to establish yourselfas an independent investigator.
So I'll give you the exampleof the work that I did up until
the point that I got hired.
So I worked a lot on, you know, touchand the circuits of the spinal cord,
which is the brain part of the brainthat processes touch information.
(13:42):
And throughout my training,really, I had developed tools and
the mouse and techniques to studysort of circuit level questions.
And I wanted to apply them to anew question for which I didn't
have a lot of experience, which isrecovery from spinal cord injury.
And so I looked around within myenvironment, which was perfect for that.
And I really drew upon the expertiseof the people around me and really
(14:06):
articulated the questions that wereunanswered in the field, um, and for
which I could bring in a new perspectiveinto answering those questions.
And so I really want it to, um, toframe my scientific interest and goals
in relations to that training andanswering those exciting questions in
(14:29):
the field for which I was going into.
And I think a lot of what peopledon't realize about sometimes some
of these K award mechanisms orthese training mechanisms is that
the science is one part, but thetraining is so essential, right?
So you have to have like a really goodplan and you have to have how each
mentor is going to contribute to thatplan and to how you're going to leverage
(14:54):
those scientific interests to answerthis cool question in, in the field.
And in preparation for this, Idid look back at my K application
and I almost cringed, you know,cause I wrote this almost like, you
know, maybe a couple of years ago.
And I was like, Oh my God, the scienceis so bad, you know, because, well,
of course, like it's a new field.
And so I didn't know how to conceptualizethings, but I have put together really
(15:18):
good research, like a plan, right.
With mentors and how they're going to help me.
And so it was obvious that like one of thereviewers comments were like, obviously
like this is a new field for her.
Cause she doesn't know how to writeabout it, but she knows like how
to implement the current plan.
Right.
So, um, you have to keep that in mindthat the science, like the research
portion of it, it's not going to be great.
(15:39):
Right.
Cause you're in trainingand that's sort of a given.
And so that's why like this b io sketch is really important, right.
Because it's an importantpart of who you are.
And so you have to really painta really great picture for,
for the reviewers in that way.
Tavita Garrett (15:55):
Yeah.
I definitely want to emphasize thetraining aspect that Victoria mentioned.
Like I think that's even more importantfor an F31 award than so yeah.
Framing my scientific interests.
I just kind of tried to, uh,express the, you know, research
(16:15):
techniques that I enjoyed andwhat I thought my strengths were.
And then also talk about, you know,maybe even the limitations of those
techniques and then how I could usethe environment around me to get
training in other techniques that wouldcompliment what I was already strong in.
And so when you do that, you kind of haveto analyze like, okay, what am I good at?
(16:40):
What new technique could I learncould kind of fill in this gap
that is, you know, the techniquethat I currently use can answer.
And I think for a reader that showsa lot of like foresight and that
you've kind of thought through things.
And I think that's something that,uh, the reviewers are looking for.
Clark Rosensweig (16:56):
Okay, yeah.
If I can jump to, I feel liketo be to in Victoria are like
absolutely on point here.
It's the same stuff thatI was thinking about.
Just sort of feeling like, uh, Iwanted to, first of all, craft an
overall like overarching narrative ofwho I was as a person throughout the
application, but I think a great wayof thinking about that is where are
(17:17):
you on your scientific journey so far?
And do you have a vision for whereyou're heading in the future?
And I think the biosketch can be a greatplace to kind of bridge those things
because you're really talking about whatyour progression has been, but now you're
thinking about what training do I needright now to get me to where I want to be.
(17:37):
And am I starting to see, you know, aniche that I can fill, um, that having
these two diverse sets of trainingmight actually bring together and make
me, you know, the one person in theworld or one of the only people in the
world who has that set of experiencesthat they can tackle, you know, a new
(17:58):
set of questions or tackle even anold set of questions from a new lens.
Joy Franco (18:03):
Yeah.
I think that's a really great wayof framing it, especially because if
you're applying for a training awards,I think being able to demonstrate
why this award would help you and,and how it will help you progress in
your career, I think is one of themain goals or at least, you know,
that was sort of my takeaway from it.
(18:24):
The only thing I'll add to thatis that because I was applying
for an award from NINDS right.
And even though I do neuroscience,I'm a PhD student in the
mechanical engineering program.
And so when I presented this goal,this long range vision for where I see
myself as an independent researcher,um, I felt like I needed to explain
(18:46):
a little bit more about my scientificbackground to demonstrate that this
wasn't just a completely crazy offshoot, that this was actually something
that had been a part of my training.
You know, even since I was an undergrad,I had been, um, in a neurophysiology lab.
And so, uh, I devoted a little bit of,uh, that part of my personal statement
(19:08):
to just talking about work that I didas an undergrad and what motivated me
to get into research in the first place.
Um, and then how, um, how thisparticular award would help
to fill a gap in my training.
Um, and take me to thatnext level in my career.
Lauren Ul (19:25):
Yeah, Joy, I actually have a follow up question about that.
So, um, I know sometimes whenscientists are coming from fields
outside of neuroscience, likeengineering, or even psychology or
education, for example, there are justdifferent conventions in the field.
Like let's say the use of conferenceproceedings or book publishing.
(19:46):
And so did you have to think about thator explain what the field conventions
were and how'd you approach that?
Joy Franco (19:53):
Yeah, it's, it's definitely challenging.
Um, because when someone from engineeringlooks at my CV and they see a shortage
of publications, um, it, it definitelyis something I have to explain on
the engineering side because for themconference papers count as publications.
Right.
Um, so it's pretty common for anengineering PhD student to defend
(20:15):
with like at least a dozen papers.
Uh, yeah, the numbers are verystartling when you see them.
And so it can be very easy to sort offeel inadequate in that perspective.
Um, so in, in this particular case, Iactually, I did have to talk about why
I don't have publications, but it's, um,it was actually from a different place.
(20:39):
It, um, so it was from, you know, havingexperienced this trauma as a graduate
and having this setback in my graduatestudies, but it wasn't necessarily because
of a field switch or anything like that.
So I think that there was a littlebit of a reverse situation here where,
because I'm explaining myself to, um,neuroscientists, their expectation is not
(21:03):
that I'm going to have 12 papers on my CV.
Um, but the, the oppositesituation, I might've had to
explain myself a little bit.
Victoria Abrai (21:13):
Yeah, it's true.
In neuroscience, 12 papersare just not possible.
I'm hoping to have 12 papersby the end of my career.
Marguerite (21:25):
Well, do any of the rest of you, um, have any say gaps or
lack in productivity that you felt youneeded to explain in your application?
Um, and specifically in thebiosketch maybe there was a gap
between college and grad school orswitching labs, anything like that?
Joy Franco (21:43):
Yeah, I mean, I'll, I'll follow up on that.
I know I touched on it a little bit, butI actually had to explain two gaps, you
know, so the first was just that it tookme so long to finish my bachelor's degree.
I graduated high school in 2002 and Ididn't finish my bachelor's until 2014.
So, um, the time between graduatinghigh school and when I really
(22:06):
went back to community collegewith a very focused effort, right?
Like I went back to community collegein 2010, knowing that I wanted to go
get a PhD. So it was, I was really init and prepared for this long journey.
Um, so I did need to explain alittle bit about what I was doing
before that point in my life.
What was I doing in the time in between,um, especially so that it didn't seem so
(22:31):
random that like, Oh yeah, I just wokeup one day and all of a sudden wanted
to get a PhD. Um, and then the other gapthat I had to explain, which is a little
bit harder, um, is that I'm seriouslyinjured when I was hit by a car in the
start of my second year of grad school,it's a really challenging experience.
And it took a couple of years to getback on track with my PhD studies and to
(22:54):
really get back to like high productivity.
Um, and then it's also something that Icontinue to struggle with, uh, every day
in my life as a, as a graduate student.
So I definitely had to presentthat information because when you
see that I have no publicationsfor my graduate studies yet,
it's definitely very alarming.
(23:14):
And, and it was something thatpeople commented on, um, in
the feedback that they gave me.
Marguerite Matthews (23:20):
Wow.
Thank you for sharing that joy.
I know that's gotta be really tough,but I I'm sure that will resonate with
other folks who have also, um, hadsome challenging life experiences.
And it's really great that you continueto press on, and clearly you must have
a great support system of people who arefighting for you, um, to continue to be
(23:40):
able to pursue your research interests.
Um, and obviously you, you wereawarded this F99, so it doesn't have
to be a barrier to your advancement.
So thank you.
Jo (23:50):
You're going to make me cry.
Thank you.
Marguerite Matthews (23:53):
I'm sorry!
Jo (23:53):
I'm already tearing up here.
No, I really appreciate it.
I am very lucky to have such amazingmentors in my life and, and, and
it's definitely, you know, thesupport that they give me that has
helped me keep pushing on every day.
Victoria (24:08):
It's really wonderful that the NIH now--when I was a graduate
student, they didn't have the F99 R00, butwhat a great opportunity to, um, to foster
a diverse dynamics, that of scientists,that's a great, a great mechanism.
It really is.
And these are not easy to get.
(24:29):
So you, you must be really good.
Joy Franco (24:33):
It's, you know, it's interesting just to like, add on
that really quick, because, um, wewere reading the reviews, you know,
because you don't know that you get theaward, um, before you get the reviews.
And so I was like, reallypanicked about not getting it.
And my advisor was like, well, youknow, that you can read the reviews,
like, have you read the reviews yet?
I was like, no, I didn't know thatit was so, so she and I sat in her
(24:56):
office and she opened up the documentand actually read them out loud to me.
And I started tearing up because,um, they were so positive and it
was interesting hearing people inthe room talking about how well
she doesn't have any publications.
And then there's actual notes about otherpeople who were in the same room and said,
yeah, but that's the point of this award?
(25:19):
The point of this is the awardis to give her this opportunity.
So I thought that that was one of the besttakeaways from that entire experience.
Lauren Ullrich (25:29):
Yeah.
I mean, I think the success of the DSPANprogram really comes down to the fellows
that we've awarded and have really, um,gone out of their way to make it a really
phenomenal and supportive communities.
So, I mean, thank you Joy for beingone of our scholars and being so
invested in the success of the program.
Marguerite Matthews (25:48):
Absolutely.
And I also think it speaks to thisidea of excellence, that excellence
has to be a certain way, um, andexcellence comes in many different forms.
And just because you didn't go straightfrom undergrad to grad to, you know, being
the super bad-ass and publishing 12 papersin your graduate career, um, that that
is not necessarily what excellence is.
(26:09):
Um, if you get there, itsprobably a lot of luck.
Um, honestly it's not a markon how productive you are or
can be, um, in other measures.
And I think perseverance is really keyand the type of work that we do failure
is so common to scientific research.
That is something I think a lotof times we take for granted.
So I'm glad to hear that even throughall of these challenges that we still
(26:33):
are seeing some really brilliant folksand honestly be able to use you as the
poster children for these awards, becausewe brag about you all all the time.
And that's not a small thing forall the things that you've overcome.
Clark Rosen (26:49):
I think just to add to that Marguerite, um, joy touched
on this, Tavita touched on this.
I would also say thi (26:54):
my path to grad school was very nonlinear.
So if there are people out there listeningthat, you know, that are looking at
these awards and thinking this isn'tfor me, I, you know, I, I didn't go
straight through, I didn't know exactlywhat I wanted to be when I was born.
That's not what these awards are about.
These awards are there to award you forwhoever you are and whatever your path
(27:18):
was to the place where you're at now.
Marguerite Matthews (27:21):
Well said.
Lauren Ullri (27:22):
Clark, do you want to, um, expand a little bit on
how you address your, uh, windypath in your personal statement?
Clark Rosensw (27:29):
Yeah, absolutely.
Um, so, you know, I don't think Ifaced anywhere near the challenges
that Joy did, but, um, you know, mybiggest challenge was I felt pretty
unfocused in my undergraduate career,uh, and that was certainly reflected
in my grades and in my overall desireto continue in science by the time I
got to the end of my undergraduate.
(27:51):
So really when I graduated fromcollege, I thought I was never
going to do science again.
I moved out to LA to, to write comedyand, and take on creative pursuits.
Um, and it was really only becauseI, I needed money to live, uh, that
I, uh, sort of found my way into alab as a technician, um, at UCLA.
(28:13):
Um, and I had great mentorship and areally great experience in that lab.
And that's what reallybrought me back to science.
So, you know, it took me a long time toget to a point where I felt like, okay,
I want to, you know, I want to go backand continue my education in a real way.
And, uh, and pursue a PhDprogram for a long time.
(28:36):
Science felt like the job that Idid to make the stuff that I loved
work and that eventually it became,you know, the thing that I loved.
So I think, you know, addressingthat kind of stuff in your
biosketch is really important.
It felt more important to me inthe F31 than it did in the F32.
I felt like I was crafting a differentnarrative for the F32, but at least
(28:58):
in the F31, it felt really importantto me to say, yes, I know that the,
that my grades were not so great.
Um, yes, I know that it took mea really long time to get to grad
school, but here's why that was good.
Now I'm focused.
Now I know what I want to do now.
I know the direction that I'mheaded and I think people, people
(29:21):
can see that and people also enjoya redemption story a little bit.
So I think that that can be a verypowerful thing in your biosketch.
Marguerite Matthe (29:29):
Kind of along those lines, I'm curious how you
all decided to, um, talk aboutyour significant contributions.
That could be kind of scary, right?
If you haven't published a paperyet, if you are still working on, um,
sort of the bread and butter of yourresearch project, um, how did you
decide, say, what to include or if,you know, were you intimidated that you
(29:49):
didn't have a big paper to put there?
You know, how did youapproach that section?
Tavita G (29:54):
I got some really good advice when I was starting to write
my biosketch and submitting my F31.
And someone kind of told me what thecontributions, the science section is
supposed to look like when you're a PI.
And it's really supposed to be likesections of your favorite or most
(30:15):
important contributions that have changedthe field, or, you know, prompted new
fields or developed new techniques.
And so I immediately realized, okay,that is not something that I can
do as a graduate student, you know,it's just, it's just not possible.
(30:35):
So then it made it very easy just tosay, okay, I'm going to go through
each of my research experiences anddescribe what I did, the question I
was trying to answer and what I got outof that experience, um, how it could
contribute to a paper in the future.
(30:55):
And so just like on a very kind of, uh,I don't want to say like smaller level,
but I guess it's a good way to put it.
Like, how did your project influence,uh, research in the lab and kind of
slowly try to bring that big pictureas your career goes on, but definitely
(31:17):
in an F 31 application, you don'thave to think that you need to really
emphasize that, you know, what you didis completely turning the field around.
Victoria Abra (31:29):
Yeah, absolutely.
I would add to that, that you don'thave to have publications I've
seen even some biosketches thathave like poster presentations or
anything like that, that you can add.
And so, uh, I approached my significantcontributions to science the same way,
but with a K award, you have the arc ofgraduate school and post-doc, so there
(31:50):
you do have the publications to startto craft, you know, uh, this sections.
And basically what I did is I stood back,uh, I looked at my whole body of work,
like all, you know, first, middle authorpublications, whatever I had and put it
into like three or four sections of howI felt that my training or these three
(32:13):
parts of my training through the sort ofthe three major sets of papers that I had.
Um, you know, what, what was thescientific contribution, what this
body of work said and how was goingto leverage this knowledge or training
for this new scientific question thatI was trying to answer through this
K award mechanism and actually madea clear distinction for keywords.
(32:33):
It's very helpful to, to givethe, what you consider to be
your transition to independence.
So each paragraph has sort of highlightedwhat I had done, and then I sort of
said, and this is where I'm going.
And I sort of underlined it, youknow, and obviously I didn't have any
publications, cause this is all like,sort of, this is what I plan to do
no publications associated with it.
(32:55):
But, um, it did have a clear distinctionof how that paragraph, that knowledge
or training was going to be leveragedfor this particular question, how
that contributed to the overallgoal of this keyword mentored grant.
Um, one last thing that depending on themechanism, but this could be something
of helpful to your listeners with,um, with K awards, I was moving into a
(33:18):
new field of study and I was proposingnew techniques for this new field and
actually had a section--when I lookedback at my body of work, I realized
how collaborative I was in the, uh, inthe way that I approached my science.
And there were lots of things thatthroughout my career had developed little
things and quickly shared it with otherlabs that led to other publications.
(33:41):
And so I actually had, you know, mycontributions to science that one
of them was like collaborations.
Like I actually, that was my contribution.
And I said, how, you know, as a broadthinker, I often look how to leverage
my tools and techniques to other fields.
And, uh, and this could be an addedbonus for this kind of the questions
(34:01):
that I was trying to answer.
And so I listed how throughout mycareer, I had leveraged that and
contributed to other findings in notmy immediate field, but other fields.
And that was something that maybe, youknow, for K word mechanisms, depending
on your question that could, that couldwork because obviously they're looking
to train the next set of scientists whowe hope are going to be collaborative and
(34:25):
again, larger than the sum of their parts.
Right?
Lauren Ullrich (34:29):
Yeah.
I like that a lot.
I don't know if I'vereally seen that before.
Victoria Abrair (34:33):
And in my case, when I, when I took a step back, I
really did realize like, wow, there'sa lot of these little projects that
they were just collaborations, right?
I'm a middle author here and there,but I contributed this key thing like
he region or key concept or something.
And so then I said, I decided tohighlight as the contribution to science.
Joy Fra (34:51):
I think one thing I'll, I'll just emphasize about that.
And this is more just general resumeCV advice that I had gotten from other
people wiser than myself along the waywas to, um, whatever you're listing in
terms of your job experience or researchexperience, to always focus on what
(35:12):
your contributions were and to reallyhighlight the I in the statement, you
know, because the scientists were so usedto saying we did this and our group found
this, um, certain scientists are using.
Yeah, that's true.
Um, that sometimes we forget that,like, it's okay to say specifically
what I did and especially becauseI'm in my thesis writing mode right
(35:35):
now, um, I'm trying to pay extracareful attention to this, but yeah.
So just the, the general idea ofreally specifically stating what, you
know, even if the project had thisoverarching goal, what was the part
that you contributed to, and, andusing that I term to highlight it.
Victoria Abraira (35:54):
Yeah.
Which is actually sometimesreally difficult not to, you
know, to talk about gender, butsometimes you'd talk about gender.
Um, like women tend to have a hardertime saying I, yeah, we tend to always
frame things as we, and the biosketcheswhere like, people that have read my
bio, he'll be like, yeah, you gottatake out those weeds and put eyes in.
So, um, that's the time whenyou have to, we have to do that.
(36:18):
Right.
It's so true.
It's been hard.
Clark Rosenswe (36:21):
I think, just to add to that, it's one of the pieces
of advice that I got specificallyfrom someone who asked me to write
my own letter of recommendationfor myself, that they could, you
know, edit, uh, was, don't be shy.
Brag about yourself here, which is,it's certainly hard for me to do.
And I think it's hard for a lot ofpeople to do, but it's something you
(36:41):
also have to do when you're writingany sort of fellowship or grant.
You do have to celebrate anythingthat you've done that you feel like
has been even remotely worthwhile.
Otherwise no one will know thegreat things that you have done.
Definitely.
And if you are concerned about braggingtoo much, just write it and have someone
(37:03):
look over it and they will give youan honest perspective on, you know, if
this is coming across as too intense,or you could brag a little more, So.
Lauren Ullrich (37:11):
Yeah, that actually is the perfect transition.
Um, because we've been askingthis actually about pretty
much every aspect of the grant.
Did you get feedback on the biosketchin particular before you submitted
your grant and how did you reviseit in response to that feedback?
Tavita (37:28):
I definitely, uh, send, you know, pretty much everything that
I write to my mentor, um, so that theycan have a look at it, give me some
feedback and, uh, it's always helpful.
Joy Franco (37:40):
Yeah.
I always take my mentors feedback.
You know, I'm very lucky to be ina lab with someone who has been a
reviewer in the NIH process a lot.
And I think that that really helpswhen you're a trainee because, you
know, she kind of knows the normthat people are looking for, um,
or what they're used to seeing.
Right.
(38:00):
And, um, it can be really helpful to havesomeone, even if they're not your say PhD
advisor, but just have someone who hasexperience with that set of standards that
can then look at your, your biosketch andsay, you know, is this completely crazy?
Did you totally deviatefrom what the norm is?
(38:22):
And so I always take theadvice that she gives me.
Um, and usually, you know, it's, it'sabout wording, or I always have like
some grammatical errors in there.
I think more generally, one of the piecesof advice that I had kind of struggled
with was especially with regards to thestruggles that I had persisted through
was during a different application.
(38:44):
And I had prepared a personalstatement and I gave it to a mentor.
Their feedback was actually like,uh, I think this doesn't, this
doesn't really make me feel good.
Like it was kind of a weird thing, right.
Because it's very sad.
Like if you know all of the detailsand if I really lay everything out
there, it can be really depressing.
And I don't want to make a value judgmentabout that or get into an analysis of
(39:09):
what reviewers should or shouldn't feel.
But I will say that when you'rewriting about these struggles that
you've been through, it can be reallychallenging to find a happy medium.
And so based on that feedback,I chose to take a very direct
and, um, simple approach.
So I tried to just phrase thingsas simply as possible without
(39:33):
really getting into the details.
Partly also because I learned thatlike, you know, it's my choice,
how much detail I share, and Idon't have to go into great detail.
I can just simply stay like, youknow, this is what I'm dealing
with and leave it at that.
Clark Rosensweig (39:49):
Yeah.
I think it's really hard toacknowledge any sort of problematic
or difficult thing from your past.
Um, especially in front of a groupof strangers, which is kind of who
you're sending this application to.
So you do have to spend some timethinking about, is this something that
I want to include is this criticalfor my application to be seen in the
(40:12):
light that I want it to be seen in?
And, you know, if not,you can leave it out.
If it, if you do feel like it's important,then you do have to spend some time
thinking about how do I address it in sucha way that the ultimate effect is going to
be positive for any reviewer of the grant.
And that's hard to do
Victoria (40:32):
one way in which I've sort of tackled this is, you know, how
people often, when they're writing grants,they say, Oh, can I read your grant?
I took a different approach.
And I said, can I readyour summary statement?
So instead of like, you know,reading grants, because the science
almost is irrelevant, right?
For a lot of these training mechanisms,um, I read a lot of summary statements
(40:55):
and I tried to read in between thelines to see what were the things
that they really cared about.
And I tried to then, you know, have myapplication speak to those directly.
So sometimes reading summary statements,even without reading an application is
so informative in trying to understandwhat that is going after and how the
(41:16):
study section is going to interpretthat mechanism and its purpose.
Laure (41:21):
That's such a good point.
Um, and I'll give a little plug for oneof our resources available on the website.
So for several of our, we have thesetip sheets and I actually developed
them not by reading applications,but by reading summary statements.
So I read through hundreds of summarystatements and found like what are sort
of the common things that reviewersare always finding to be mistakes.
(41:44):
And so when you're reading thosetips sheets, that didn't just
come out of my head that came, youknow, from the mouths of reviewers.
And so I, a hundred percentagree with you, Victoria.
It's very enlightening.
Victoria Abraira (41:53):
Where do I find that website?
Where do I find the link to that?
Joy Franco (41:57):
Yeah
Marguerite Matthews (41:58):
this should also be in the show notes.
Lauren Ullrich (42:01):
It's on our training website.
So, every mechanism has a series ofresources on the side, on our website.
And one of those resources in additionto like our webinars and all that kind of
stuff, one of them is like a tips sheet.
So we have the K22, the K01,the F99, uh, I think those are
the three that I've done so far.
Um, is there anything else thatyou'd like to mention about other
(42:24):
sections of the biosketch, thingsyou might've been confused about
or, or tips and tricks that you had?
Joy Fran (42:31):
Yeah, so, you know, as a trainee, someone who's still in
their PhD program, um, you need toput this additional information, what
your Scholastic performances, and itcan be a little bit confusing because
there are usually guides about whichgrades you should include, which
ones you shouldn't or which classes.
(42:51):
And actually, because engineeringhas such a huge course requirements,
I couldn't physically fit allof my coursework into one page.
Um, so at some point I hadto leave certain things out.
And so, um, I didn't really have agood metric on what to leave out, but
I try to just focus on the classesthat seem to be most relevant to
(43:14):
what I was applying for and relevantto my experience with research.
Lauren Ullrich (43:18):
Yeah.
I think that's probably the bestapproach, you know, there's the
application guide that has the specificinstructions, but then the FOA also
sometimes has different instructions.
So like for the DSPAN award in particular,I know that, you know, we ask for graduate
grades, but not undergraduate grades.
We just ask for a list ofundergraduate classes because you're
(43:39):
senior enough in grad school bythat point that your undergraduate
grades are not super relevant.
Um, but yeah, if you ever have anyquestions like that, you can always
reach out to the program officer that isthe contact person on the FOA and they
should be able to steer you straight.
Marguerite Matthews (44:04):
All right.
Thank you all for sharingyour wisdom today.
Can I ask each of you for one last pieceof parting advice for future applicants?
Clark Ro (44:13):
I feel like my biggest piece of advice that I remember when I
was writing my F 31, just thinking thatit was nearly impossible to combine
all of the different instructionsets for, uh, how to write these
applications in such a way that I wouldget every component that I needed.
So by all means reach out toanyone, you know, who has written
(44:38):
one of these get examples.
Um, if even if the only thing youget out of them is, Oh, I'm missing
this part that I, uh, that I wouldneed if I would like to get funded.
Tavi (44:50):
I think my piece of advice would be to, uh, make a checklist because
there are a lot of tiny components andstuff that requires a couple sentences
and you don't want to miss anything.
So then I also think thathelps you plan writing.
You're correct.
Joy Franco (45:09):
I definitely had a spreadsheet when I was writing for the
DSPAN award and I had like multiplecolumns for requirements and status.
And, you know, especially like if youhave a draft, because there are so
many sections to the total applicationthat like, you'll be, you know, one
section may be reviewed by your PI andyou're waiting for it to come back.
(45:30):
Uh, so I absolutely hadto have that checklist.
Um, I think my parting advice to anybody,especially trainees though, um, and people
early stage when they're writing, um,the biosketch and the personal statement
and the contributions, you know, becauseclearly you're probably looking at other
people's biosketches to get examples.
(45:52):
And in the process of looking at thoseexamples, it can be all too easy to
start comparing yourself to other people.
And, uh, if we have anything in common,it would probably be that when I start
comparing my CV to others, I feel Istart feeling really inadequate and I
start panicking a little bit like, Ohmy gosh, I'm never going to make it
(46:14):
because, you know, I don't have enoughpublications or I don't have the pedigree
that these other applicants do it, myexperience, I have to just thoughtfully
do everything possible to quiet that voiceand to quiet that inner critic and put
her on a shelf somewhere because she'sreally a hindrance to writing, right?
(46:35):
Like that's where writer'sblock can really come from.
You're sitting, looking at thispage, how do you get started?
And you just feel inadequate and youfeel like you don't have anything
worthwhile to contribute, but that'sall coming from that inner critic.
Who's, you know, trying tocompare you to other people.
So put her in a box, put her onthe shelf and, um, you know, just
(46:57):
start writing as if you're goingto be the next Nobel Laureate.
Um, and, and really to just keep thatfaith alive that, that you can do.
Victoria Abraira (47:07):
Yeah.
I can't agree with more than with whateveryone said in my parting advice is that
as, as you make these checklists and asyou're getting, um, you know, ready to
rate and make sure that in particular,when it comes to your biosketch make sure
that you keep bird's eye view of whatevery piece of the application is saying.
(47:29):
Right.
So you want to make sure that everything'sin sync and hence why they're getting
organized in the beginning is key becausethat's, when you start to say, like,
what is the flavor of this application,what message I'm trying to convey, and
the biosketch can speak to that andthen fill in some of the gaps as well.
So getting organized is agreat part of that process.
Marguerite Matthews (47:49):
Great.
Um, Lauren, do you have anyadvice for our listeners?
Lauren (47:54):
Gosh, um, actually I of want to piggyback off of what Joy said.
Um, I think, you know, getting out ofyour own ways really important, um,
we know that imposter syndrome runsrampant in science and that a lot, a
lot of people struggle with that andsomething that I did, um, a couple
of years ago now, actually, was likevery consciously stopping critical
(48:18):
self-talk and, um, trying to breakthat pattern of like either being
disappointed in myself or beating myselfup about things and things like that.
And, um, it took a long time tobreak that habit and it's something
I'm still working on, but it'sdefinitely made my life a lot easier.
(48:39):
Um, it's something I would highlyrecommend to everyone because the world
is hard enough, especially in 2020,um, with the pandemic, uh, you don't
need to make it harder on yourself.
So what about you, Marguerite?
Marguerite M (48:53):
Okay, well, Lauren stole my idea of piggybacking off of Joy.
So let me come up with an original idea.
No, I, I'm also actually kind ofgoing back to something Joy, um,
elaborated on is, um, don't allowany setbacks you might've had or
literal failures define who you are.
(49:13):
Um, you, if you have good ideas and youbelieve in the work that you're doing,
go for it and don't feel the need toexplain it in an apologetic way, but
as an opportunity to say why thingsmay not look as someone might think
they should look for posterity sake.
I think you can be authentic to who youare without having to apologize that,
(49:37):
you know, maybe you failed every singlebiology class in undergrad, but when
you got to, you know, your master'sprogram, you were kicking butt because,
you know, you connected with the materialdifferently or, um, because of some
potential health challenges, or maybeyou decided to start a family, um,
being able to publish papers was notsomething that came particularly easy.
(49:58):
Um, or you had to take sometime away from the bench.
So those things are all, okay, don't letthat stop you from, um, still showing
all of the other things that you bring tothe table in ways that you have overcome.
Um, and I think that can reallybe highlighted and showcased,
uh, in your biosketch.
Lauren Ullrich (50:13):
Yeah.
And I'll, I'll just even say like, thosethings can make you a better scientist.
Marguerite Matthews (50:18):
Absolutely.
Lauren (50:19):
So instead of presenting them as like, I'm a good scientist,
despite all these experiences, youcan frame it, you know, even in a
more positive way of like, here'swhat I learned from these things.
Here's, here's how I'm a betterscientist because of my unique
perspective that I bring and myunique experiences that I've had.
So, um, don't think it always has to be anegative, even failure can be a positive.
(50:48):
So that's all we have time fortoday on building up the nerve.
So a huge thank you to our guests thisweek for sharing their expertise and thank
you to NINDS program director, Dr. BobRiddle, composed our theme song and music.
We'll see you next time when wetackle the candidate or applicant's
background and goals section.
Marguerite Matthew (51:09):
You can find past episodes of this podcast and more
grant application resources on theweb at NINDS.NIH.gov . Email us your
questions at NINDSnerve pod@nih.gov.
Make sure you subscribe to thepodcast on Apple podcasts or your
favorite podcast app of choiceso you don't miss an episode.
(51:30):
We'll see you next time.
Welcome to the National Institute of Neurological Disorders and
Stroke's Building Up the Nerve, a podcastfor neuroscience trainees that takes
you through the components of a grantapplication with successful awardees.
We know that applying for NIH fundingcan be daunting, but we are here to help.
It's our job.
Hi, I'm Lauren Ullrich, aprogram director at NINDS.
Marguerite M (00:25):
And I'm Marguerite Matthews, a scientific program manager
at NINDS, and we're your hosts today.
Lauren Ullrich (00:31):
This episode is about the biographical sketch.
We will focus especially on thepersonal statement and contributions
to science section of the biosketch.
Marguerite Ma (00:41):
And of course our disclaimer still applies everything we
talk about may only be relevant for NINDS.
So if you're applying to a different NIHInstitute or center, it's always best
to check with them about their policies.
Lauren Ull (01:02):
Our guests today are Tavita Garrett, Joy Franco, Dr. Clark
Rosensweig and Dr. Victoria Abraira.
Tavita Ga (01:13):
Um, my name is Tavita Garrett, and I am a PhD candidate, uh,
in the neuroscience graduate program atOregon health and science university.
And so what I study, uh, isa type of retinal ganglion
cell called an intrinsicallyphotosensitive retinal ganglion cell.
And so like rods and cones, they expressan ops and protein specifically melanopsin
(01:35):
uh, so they kind of have this built insensitivity to light, and we know that
these cells are involved in mediating,non-image-forming visual functions.
So, circadian rhythms, pupil reflexes,thermoregulation, and since, uh, you
know, these intrinsically photosensitive,retinal ganglion cells mediate many
(01:56):
different functions, and their axonsproject to many different brain
regions, you might think that thereare specialized subtypes responsible
for the functions that I described.
So I use a combination of mouse,brain slice, electrophysiology,
transgenic mice, confocal imaging,uh, and some other techniques to
dissect out and define these subtypes.
(02:18):
As far as NH awards that I havereceived, I have received an R01
supplement and I have applied foran F31 NRSA, which was recommended
for funding, but I declined it.
Hobbies and passions outside ofwork--I definitely like to go
skiiing, uh, play soccer, listeningto podcasts, coincidentally.
(02:41):
And right now I'm kind of just tryingto fill my house with plants that
I've grown from foods that I eat.
So I'm trying to grow a bunch of likemango and avocado plants right now.
It's a lot of fun.
Marguerite M (02:51):
Is this your first time, uh, being a green thumb or is this
something you did before the pandemic?
Tavita Garrett (02:56):
This Is absolutely my first.
I would not have considered myself someonewho could keep a bunch of plants alive.
Joy (03:05):
Hi, my name is Joy Franco.
I'm a PhD student in the mechanicalengineering department at Stanford.
I study the sense of touch in worms.
Uh, I look at mechanosensory neuronsand I look at how mechanosignaling is
propagated to the neuron itself, andthen how the neuron functions as a
mechanosensor in the neural circuit.
(03:25):
And then what other roles mechanosignalingmay be playing in, maintaining the neuron
and maintaining the health of the neuron.
So I am a D-SPAN scholar.
I received the D-SPAN fellowship, uh, inmy, I believe sixth year of my graduate
studies and I am on the F99 portionstill and will be applying for the K00
(03:48):
in the coming year outside of science.
I am a competitive cyclistand I also am a dog mama.
So, when I'm not in lab or analyzingdata, I am definitely either on
my bicycle or playing with my dog.
Clark Rosensweig (04:04):
Uh, hi, I'm Dr. Clark Rosensweig.
I am a post-doc obviously atNorthwestern university, um,
in the neurobiology department.
So in the past, I've applied forboth an F31 and an F32 and I got
both of those awards, um, which hasbeen hugely beneficial to my career.
Uh, so thank you NINDS.
(04:25):
And, uh, I'm a sleep researcher.
So, I think sleep is really one ofthe enduring mysteries in biology.
Uh, we don't know why we sleep.
What makes us tired?
What makes sleep such a crucial conservedbehavior despite its obvious drawbacks.
And, uh, we think that sleep is regulatedby both the circadian clock, which
controls timing and the sleep homeostat,which is basically just a way of saying
(04:48):
that the longer you're awake, the greateryour drive to go to sleep will be.
Um, and I think understanding themolecular underpinnings of this
latter process will give us an openingto investigate all of the other
questions that we have about sleep.
So to get at this question, uh, Iuse Drosophila as a model organism,
I have various genetic drivers that Ican use to manipulate their sleep and
(05:10):
wake behavior and their sleep drive.
Uh, and I'm coupling that with whole brainand targeted FACSseq of various neurons,
uh, to do RNA sequencing and try andidentify the molecules that are really
tracking with changes in sleep drive.
And, uh, just in terms of, uh, hobbiesand passions I have outside of work, um,
(05:32):
actually spent several years after collegedoing comedy writing and stand up comedy.
And I still like to occasionallydo a little bit of that.
And then I'm also areally big music lover.
So I spend a lot of time eitherplaying music or listening to music.
Victori (05:48):
Hi, my name is Victoria Abraira, and I am an Assistant Professor
at Rutgers university, and I just startedmy lab a little bit over two years ago.
We study actually the sense of touch.
So Joy, we have a lot in common.
So we study the sense of touch frommolecules all the way to circuits, um,
(06:09):
in a dish all the way to the mouse.
And we are very interested inunderstanding how touch helps
us to move, feel pain and, uh,even socialize with one another.
I've been fortunate enough tobe supported, uh, throughout
my career by the NIH.
So I had an F31 an F32, K, and,uh, and now a recently-funded R01.
(06:35):
So I went through the whole,um, through the whole gamut.
My passions are also cycling.
I'm a huge Peloton fan.
And so, yeah, I cycle a lot andmy other passion is baking with
my three and a half year old.
And we're slowly making our way throughMartha Stewart's book on cookies,
Lauren Ullrich (07:00):
any stand out cookies so far?
Victoria Abr (07:02):
So I always, every weekend, I always let my daughter pick
a cookie and there's like probablyover 300 recipes in some, some weeks
is like, these are really tough.
And so I try my best.
I've burned a lot of batches, but thestandout is definitely her cake, like
chocolate chip cookie that my daughterjust adores; it's like, it's like
(07:26):
a cake in a cookie, ii's delicious.
Lauren Ullr (07:29):
I'll definitely put it in the show notes so that our
listeners can bake along with you.
Marguerite Matthews (07:41):
Can each of you tell us how you approached your
personal statement for the particularaward that you are applying for?
Victoria Abraira (07:47):
I can start.
So I'll describe sort of my, how Iapproached the personal statement
from the K award perspective.
So the K award is a mentoring award forother young faculty or, or post-docs
transitioning to independence.
So the personal statement, and Iguess in my view, I really wanted
(08:09):
to paint a picture of the veryclear plan for this transition.
I wanted my personal statementto reflect the growth, right?
So the arc of my graduate andpostdoctoral training and how in my new
environment, I was going to leveragethis training with a current environment
(08:29):
to yield a product that was basicallygreater than the sum of its parts.
Right.
I really thought about it fromthe perspective of, of the
people reading it and saying,how should we fund this person?
Does this person have a goodtraining that within her current
environment, she will be successful.
And again, like I said, greaterthan the sum of its parts,
Clark Rosenswei (08:51):
yeah, Victoria, actually, it's interesting to me that
you had that, that sort of feeling thatyou wanted to approach different personal
statements from different directions,because I had that experience as well.
So when I felt like I was writingfor my F31, there was a very
specific, you know, set of thingsthat I wanted to tackle there.
But then when I started to write for theF32, it felt like the personal statement
(09:14):
needed to be something different.
That was really more about the arcof my career and loss about, you
know, some of the issues that Ihad encountered up until the F31.
Um, so I think having the foresightto, to think about, you know, what
does this particular applicationneed, um, is really critical.
Victoria Abraira (09:34):
Yeah.
What are they, you know,what is the announcement?
What are the key criteria?
And then how do I paint that picture?
Because it is a personal statement, right?
So it's about you as a person, andthese are things that can not be
addressed in any other application.
And so I think that you have to paint thatpicture really well for the reviewers.
Tavita Garrett (09:55):
Yeah.
Clark, I really like what you justsaid about the F31 personal statement,
uh, kind of explaining, you know, howyou got to graduate school and what
your plans were specifically for, youknow, your last years in grad school.
And that is pretty much high, approachedit side, just kind of thought, you know,
this is an opportunity to explain all ofthe choices that got me to this point.
(10:20):
Um, since I did kind of havea bit of a windy path, I did
two post-bac opportunities.
Um, you know, that might be strangeto someone so I can explain, you
know, this is why I did this.
Uh, this is what I learnedfrom these two experiences.
Um, so what I kind of did is to startoff by stating my long-term goals, my
research interests, how that affected,you know, my choice of graduate school.
(10:42):
Uh, and then, you know, all of thosekinds of past decisions that led me
up to this point, the lab that I wasin and really what I wanted to do to
kind of like put the bow, I guess,on, uh, the rest of my PhD research.
Joy Franc (10:56):
So, you know, similar to what others have said, I really
liked the way that it was phrasedin terms of looking specifically at
the award and what was the call for.
And, um, for me, it was demonstrating thatI was a really good fit for this award.
So my goal with my personalstatement was to really make that
(11:17):
information easily available towhoever was reviewing my biosketch.
I also had a very non-traditionalwinding path to my current place in my
PhD. So I felt like there was a ton ofinformation that I wanted to put into
the personal statement to say, Hey,like, yes, please, please pick me.
(11:37):
You have no idea how amazing this would befor me, but I also needed to organize that
information in a way that would be easilydigested by whoever was reviewing it.
Um, so we actually chose, um, so Isay we, because my mentors helped me
with my personal statement of course.
And so I actually chose to break itup into sections because I wanted to
(11:59):
touch on each really critical partthat I felt like was important to
seeing the whole picture of who I am.
So including scientific careergoals, um, you know, background
and goals, but then also talkingabout, um, you know, adversity that
I had faced along the PhD path.
Um, and then also sort of explaining,you know, if someone were to look at when
(12:24):
I graduated high school and then lookat when I started my PhD program, there
are a lot of questions that come up.
Um, and I faced those questions before.
So I knew that I needed to addressthat and explain why was it that
it took me so long, um, after highschool to get to my PhD program.
Lauren Ullrich (12:42):
Great.
So this is a great segue.
We're going to talk about each ofthose sort of sections in sequence.
So to start, um, how did you frameyour scientific interests and
goals in relation to the specificaward that you were applying to?
Victoria Abra (13:00):
So, you know, you have to really look at the, the purpose
of the funding announcement, right?
So for my K01, it's a mentored award.
And so that means is for youngfaculty, uh, to establish their career.
So there has to be, you have to reallyarticulate your training, but then
you also have to articulate how thecurrent mentors in your environment
(13:21):
will help you to establish yourselfas an independent investigator.
So I'll give you the exampleof the work that I did up until
the point that I got hired.
So I worked a lot on, you know, touchand the circuits of the spinal cord,
which is the brain part of the brainthat processes touch information.
(13:42):
And throughout my training,really, I had developed tools and
the mouse and techniques to studysort of circuit level questions.
And I wanted to apply them to anew question for which I didn't
have a lot of experience, which isrecovery from spinal cord injury.
And so I looked around within myenvironment, which was perfect for that.
And I really drew upon the expertiseof the people around me and really
(14:06):
articulated the questions that wereunanswered in the field, um, and for
which I could bring in a new perspectiveinto answering those questions.
And so I really want it to, um, toframe my scientific interest and goals
in relations to that training andanswering those exciting questions in
(14:29):
the field for which I was going into.
And I think a lot of what peopledon't realize about sometimes some
of these K award mechanisms orthese training mechanisms is that
the science is one part, but thetraining is so essential, right?
So you have to have like a really goodplan and you have to have how each
mentor is going to contribute to thatplan and to how you're going to leverage
(14:54):
those scientific interests to answerthis cool question in, in the field.
And in preparation for this, Idid look back at my K application
and I almost cringed, you know,cause I wrote this almost like, you
know, maybe a couple of years ago.
And I was like, Oh my God, the scienceis so bad, you know, because, well,
of course, like it's a new field.
And so I didn't know how to conceptualizethings, but I have put together really
(15:18):
good research, like a plan, right.
With mentors and how they're going to help me.
And so it was obvious that like one of thereviewers comments were like, obviously
like this is a new field for her.
Cause she doesn't know how to writeabout it, but she knows like how
to implement the current plan.
Right.
So, um, you have to keep that in mindthat the science, like the research
portion of it, it's not going to be great.
(15:39):
Right.
Cause you're in trainingand that's sort of a given.
And so that's why like this b io sketch is really important, right.
Because it's an importantpart of who you are.
And so you have to really painta really great picture for,
for the reviewers in that way.
Tavita Garrett (15:55):
Yeah.
I definitely want to emphasize thetraining aspect that Victoria mentioned.
Like I think that's even more importantfor an F31 award than so yeah.
Framing my scientific interests.
I just kind of tried to, uh,express the, you know, research
(16:15):
techniques that I enjoyed andwhat I thought my strengths were.
And then also talk about, you know,maybe even the limitations of those
techniques and then how I could usethe environment around me to get
training in other techniques that wouldcompliment what I was already strong in.
And so when you do that, you kind of haveto analyze like, okay, what am I good at?
(16:40):
What new technique could I learncould kind of fill in this gap
that is, you know, the techniquethat I currently use can answer.
And I think for a reader that showsa lot of like foresight and that
you've kind of thought through things.
And I think that's something that,uh, the reviewers are looking for.
Clark Rosensweig (16:56):
Okay, yeah.
If I can jump to, I feel liketo be to in Victoria are like
absolutely on point here.
It's the same stuff thatI was thinking about.
Just sort of feeling like, uh, Iwanted to, first of all, craft an
overall like overarching narrative ofwho I was as a person throughout the
application, but I think a great wayof thinking about that is where are
(17:17):
you on your scientific journey so far?
And do you have a vision for whereyou're heading in the future?
And I think the biosketch can be a greatplace to kind of bridge those things
because you're really talking about whatyour progression has been, but now you're
thinking about what training do I needright now to get me to where I want to be.
(17:37):
And am I starting to see, you know, aniche that I can fill, um, that having
these two diverse sets of trainingmight actually bring together and make
me, you know, the one person in theworld or one of the only people in the
world who has that set of experiencesthat they can tackle, you know, a new
(17:58):
set of questions or tackle even anold set of questions from a new lens.
Joy Franco (18:03):
Yeah.
I think that's a really great wayof framing it, especially because if
you're applying for a training awards,I think being able to demonstrate
why this award would help you and,and how it will help you progress in
your career, I think is one of themain goals or at least, you know,
that was sort of my takeaway from it.
(18:24):
The only thing I'll add to thatis that because I was applying
for an award from NINDS right.
And even though I do neuroscience,I'm a PhD student in the
mechanical engineering program.
And so when I presented this goal,this long range vision for where I see
myself as an independent researcher,um, I felt like I needed to explain
(18:46):
a little bit more about my scientificbackground to demonstrate that this
wasn't just a completely crazy offshoot, that this was actually something
that had been a part of my training.
You know, even since I was an undergrad,I had been, um, in a neurophysiology lab.
And so, uh, I devoted a little bit of,uh, that part of my personal statement
(19:08):
to just talking about work that I didas an undergrad and what motivated me
to get into research in the first place.
Um, and then how, um, how thisparticular award would help
to fill a gap in my training.
Um, and take me to thatnext level in my career.
Lauren Ul (19:25):
Yeah, Joy, I actually have a follow up question about that.
So, um, I know sometimes whenscientists are coming from fields
outside of neuroscience, likeengineering, or even psychology or
education, for example, there are justdifferent conventions in the field.
Like let's say the use of conferenceproceedings or book publishing.
(19:46):
And so did you have to think about thator explain what the field conventions
were and how'd you approach that?
Joy Franco (19:53):
Yeah, it's, it's definitely challenging.
Um, because when someone from engineeringlooks at my CV and they see a shortage
of publications, um, it, it definitelyis something I have to explain on
the engineering side because for themconference papers count as publications.
Right.
Um, so it's pretty common for anengineering PhD student to defend
(20:15):
with like at least a dozen papers.
Uh, yeah, the numbers are verystartling when you see them.
And so it can be very easy to sort offeel inadequate in that perspective.
Um, so in, in this particular case, Iactually, I did have to talk about why
I don't have publications, but it's, um,it was actually from a different place.
(20:39):
It, um, so it was from, you know, havingexperienced this trauma as a graduate
and having this setback in my graduatestudies, but it wasn't necessarily because
of a field switch or anything like that.
So I think that there was a littlebit of a reverse situation here where,
because I'm explaining myself to, um,neuroscientists, their expectation is not
(21:03):
that I'm going to have 12 papers on my CV.
Um, but the, the oppositesituation, I might've had to
explain myself a little bit.
Victoria Abrai (21:13):
Yeah, it's true.
In neuroscience, 12 papersare just not possible.
I'm hoping to have 12 papersby the end of my career.
Marguerite (21:25):
Well, do any of the rest of you, um, have any say gaps or
lack in productivity that you felt youneeded to explain in your application?
Um, and specifically in thebiosketch maybe there was a gap
between college and grad school orswitching labs, anything like that?
Joy Franco (21:43):
Yeah, I mean, I'll, I'll follow up on that.
I know I touched on it a little bit, butI actually had to explain two gaps, you
know, so the first was just that it tookme so long to finish my bachelor's degree.
I graduated high school in 2002 and Ididn't finish my bachelor's until 2014.
So, um, the time between graduatinghigh school and when I really
(22:06):
went back to community collegewith a very focused effort, right?
Like I went back to community collegein 2010, knowing that I wanted to go
get a PhD. So it was, I was really init and prepared for this long journey.
Um, so I did need to explain alittle bit about what I was doing
before that point in my life.
What was I doing in the time in between,um, especially so that it didn't seem so
(22:31):
random that like, Oh yeah, I just wokeup one day and all of a sudden wanted
to get a PhD. Um, and then the other gapthat I had to explain, which is a little
bit harder, um, is that I'm seriouslyinjured when I was hit by a car in the
start of my second year of grad school,it's a really challenging experience.
And it took a couple of years to getback on track with my PhD studies and to
(22:54):
really get back to like high productivity.
Um, and then it's also something that Icontinue to struggle with, uh, every day
in my life as a, as a graduate student.
So I definitely had to presentthat information because when you
see that I have no publicationsfor my graduate studies yet,
it's definitely very alarming.
(23:14):
And, and it was something thatpeople commented on, um, in
the feedback that they gave me.
Marguerite Matthews (23:20):
Wow.
Thank you for sharing that joy.
I know that's gotta be really tough,but I I'm sure that will resonate with
other folks who have also, um, hadsome challenging life experiences.
And it's really great that you continueto press on, and clearly you must have
a great support system of people who arefighting for you, um, to continue to be
(23:40):
able to pursue your research interests.
Um, and obviously you, you wereawarded this F99, so it doesn't have
to be a barrier to your advancement.
So thank you.
Jo (23:50):
You're going to make me cry.
Thank you.
Marguerite Matthews (23:53):
I'm sorry!
Jo (23:53):
I'm already tearing up here.
No, I really appreciate it.
I am very lucky to have such amazingmentors in my life and, and, and
it's definitely, you know, thesupport that they give me that has
helped me keep pushing on every day.
Victoria (24:08):
It's really wonderful that the NIH now--when I was a graduate
student, they didn't have the F99 R00, butwhat a great opportunity to, um, to foster
a diverse dynamics, that of scientists,that's a great, a great mechanism.
It really is.
And these are not easy to get.
(24:29):
So you, you must be really good.
Joy Franco (24:33):
It's, you know, it's interesting just to like, add on
that really quick, because, um, wewere reading the reviews, you know,
because you don't know that you get theaward, um, before you get the reviews.
And so I was like, reallypanicked about not getting it.
And my advisor was like, well, youknow, that you can read the reviews,
like, have you read the reviews yet?
I was like, no, I didn't know thatit was so, so she and I sat in her
(24:56):
office and she opened up the documentand actually read them out loud to me.
And I started tearing up because,um, they were so positive and it
was interesting hearing people inthe room talking about how well
she doesn't have any publications.
And then there's actual notes about otherpeople who were in the same room and said,
yeah, but that's the point of this award?
(25:19):
The point of this is the awardis to give her this opportunity.
So I thought that that was one of the besttakeaways from that entire experience.
Lauren Ullrich (25:29):
Yeah.
I mean, I think the success of the DSPANprogram really comes down to the fellows
that we've awarded and have really, um,gone out of their way to make it a really
phenomenal and supportive communities.
So, I mean, thank you Joy for beingone of our scholars and being so
invested in the success of the program.
Marguerite Matthews (25:48):
Absolutely.
And I also think it speaks to thisidea of excellence, that excellence
has to be a certain way, um, andexcellence comes in many different forms.
And just because you didn't go straightfrom undergrad to grad to, you know, being
the super bad-ass and publishing 12 papersin your graduate career, um, that that
is not necessarily what excellence is.
(26:09):
Um, if you get there, itsprobably a lot of luck.
Um, honestly it's not a markon how productive you are or
can be, um, in other measures.
And I think perseverance is really keyand the type of work that we do failure
is so common to scientific research.
That is something I think a lotof times we take for granted.
So I'm glad to hear that even throughall of these challenges that we still
(26:33):
are seeing some really brilliant folksand honestly be able to use you as the
poster children for these awards, becausewe brag about you all all the time.
And that's not a small thing forall the things that you've overcome.
Clark Rosen (26:49):
I think just to add to that Marguerite, um, joy touched
on this, Tavita touched on this.
I would also say thi (26:54):
my path to grad school was very nonlinear.
So if there are people out there listeningthat, you know, that are looking at
these awards and thinking this isn'tfor me, I, you know, I, I didn't go
straight through, I didn't know exactlywhat I wanted to be when I was born.
That's not what these awards are about.
These awards are there to award you forwhoever you are and whatever your path
(27:18):
was to the place where you're at now.
Marguerite Matthews (27:21):
Well said.
Lauren Ullri (27:22):
Clark, do you want to, um, expand a little bit on
how you address your, uh, windypath in your personal statement?
Clark Rosensw (27:29):
Yeah, absolutely.
Um, so, you know, I don't think Ifaced anywhere near the challenges
that Joy did, but, um, you know, mybiggest challenge was I felt pretty
unfocused in my undergraduate career,uh, and that was certainly reflected
in my grades and in my overall desireto continue in science by the time I
got to the end of my undergraduate.
(27:51):
So really when I graduated fromcollege, I thought I was never
going to do science again.
I moved out to LA to, to write comedyand, and take on creative pursuits.
Um, and it was really only becauseI, I needed money to live, uh, that
I, uh, sort of found my way into alab as a technician, um, at UCLA.
(28:13):
Um, and I had great mentorship and areally great experience in that lab.
And that's what reallybrought me back to science.
So, you know, it took me a long time toget to a point where I felt like, okay,
I want to, you know, I want to go backand continue my education in a real way.
And, uh, and pursue a PhDprogram for a long time.
(28:36):
Science felt like the job that Idid to make the stuff that I loved
work and that eventually it became,you know, the thing that I loved.
So I think, you know, addressingthat kind of stuff in your
biosketch is really important.
It felt more important to me inthe F31 than it did in the F32.
I felt like I was crafting a differentnarrative for the F32, but at least
(28:58):
in the F31, it felt really importantto me to say, yes, I know that the,
that my grades were not so great.
Um, yes, I know that it took mea really long time to get to grad
school, but here's why that was good.
Now I'm focused.
Now I know what I want to do now.
I know the direction that I'mheaded and I think people, people
(29:21):
can see that and people also enjoya redemption story a little bit.
So I think that that can be a verypowerful thing in your biosketch.
Marguerite Matthe (29:29):
Kind of along those lines, I'm curious how you
all decided to, um, talk aboutyour significant contributions.
That could be kind of scary, right?
If you haven't published a paperyet, if you are still working on, um,
sort of the bread and butter of yourresearch project, um, how did you
decide, say, what to include or if,you know, were you intimidated that you
(29:49):
didn't have a big paper to put there?
You know, how did youapproach that section?
Tavita G (29:54):
I got some really good advice when I was starting to write
my biosketch and submitting my F31.
And someone kind of told me what thecontributions, the science section is
supposed to look like when you're a PI.
And it's really supposed to be likesections of your favorite or most
(30:15):
important contributions that have changedthe field, or, you know, prompted new
fields or developed new techniques.
And so I immediately realized, okay,that is not something that I can
do as a graduate student, you know,it's just, it's just not possible.
(30:35):
So then it made it very easy just tosay, okay, I'm going to go through
each of my research experiences anddescribe what I did, the question I
was trying to answer and what I got outof that experience, um, how it could
contribute to a paper in the future.
(30:55):
And so just like on a very kind of, uh,I don't want to say like smaller level,
but I guess it's a good way to put it.
Like, how did your project influence,uh, research in the lab and kind of
slowly try to bring that big pictureas your career goes on, but definitely
(31:17):
in an F 31 application, you don'thave to think that you need to really
emphasize that, you know, what you didis completely turning the field around.
Victoria Abra (31:29):
Yeah, absolutely.
I would add to that, that you don'thave to have publications I've
seen even some biosketches thathave like poster presentations or
anything like that, that you can add.
And so, uh, I approached my significantcontributions to science the same way,
but with a K award, you have the arc ofgraduate school and post-doc, so there
(31:50):
you do have the publications to startto craft, you know, uh, this sections.
And basically what I did is I stood back,uh, I looked at my whole body of work,
like all, you know, first, middle authorpublications, whatever I had and put it
into like three or four sections of howI felt that my training or these three
(32:13):
parts of my training through the sort ofthe three major sets of papers that I had.
Um, you know, what, what was thescientific contribution, what this
body of work said and how was goingto leverage this knowledge or training
for this new scientific question thatI was trying to answer through this
K award mechanism and actually madea clear distinction for keywords.
(32:33):
It's very helpful to, to givethe, what you consider to be
your transition to independence.
So each paragraph has sort of highlightedwhat I had done, and then I sort of
said, and this is where I'm going.
And I sort of underlined it, youknow, and obviously I didn't have any
publications, cause this is all like,sort of, this is what I plan to do
no publications associated with it.
(32:55):
But, um, it did have a clear distinctionof how that paragraph, that knowledge
or training was going to be leveragedfor this particular question, how
that contributed to the overallgoal of this keyword mentored grant.
Um, one last thing that depending on themechanism, but this could be something
of helpful to your listeners with,um, with K awards, I was moving into a
(33:18):
new field of study and I was proposingnew techniques for this new field and
actually had a section--when I lookedback at my body of work, I realized
how collaborative I was in the, uh, inthe way that I approached my science.
And there were lots of things thatthroughout my career had developed little
things and quickly shared it with otherlabs that led to other publications.
(33:41):
And so I actually had, you know, mycontributions to science that one
of them was like collaborations.
Like I actually, that was my contribution.
And I said, how, you know, as a broadthinker, I often look how to leverage
my tools and techniques to other fields.
And, uh, and this could be an addedbonus for this kind of the questions
(34:01):
that I was trying to answer.
And so I listed how throughout mycareer, I had leveraged that and
contributed to other findings in notmy immediate field, but other fields.
And that was something that maybe, youknow, for K word mechanisms, depending
on your question that could, that couldwork because obviously they're looking
to train the next set of scientists whowe hope are going to be collaborative and
(34:25):
again, larger than the sum of their parts.
Right?
Lauren Ullrich (34:29):
Yeah.
I like that a lot.
I don't know if I'vereally seen that before.
Victoria Abrair (34:33):
And in my case, when I, when I took a step back, I
really did realize like, wow, there'sa lot of these little projects that
they were just collaborations, right?
I'm a middle author here and there,but I contributed this key thing like
he region or key concept or something.
And so then I said, I decided tohighlight as the contribution to science.
Joy Fra (34:51):
I think one thing I'll, I'll just emphasize about that.
And this is more just general resumeCV advice that I had gotten from other
people wiser than myself along the waywas to, um, whatever you're listing in
terms of your job experience or researchexperience, to always focus on what
(35:12):
your contributions were and to reallyhighlight the I in the statement, you
know, because the scientists were so usedto saying we did this and our group found
this, um, certain scientists are using.
Yeah, that's true.
Um, that sometimes we forget that,like, it's okay to say specifically
what I did and especially becauseI'm in my thesis writing mode right
(35:35):
now, um, I'm trying to pay extracareful attention to this, but yeah.
So just the, the general idea ofreally specifically stating what, you
know, even if the project had thisoverarching goal, what was the part
that you contributed to, and, andusing that I term to highlight it.
Victoria Abraira (35:54):
Yeah.
Which is actually sometimesreally difficult not to, you
know, to talk about gender, butsometimes you'd talk about gender.
Um, like women tend to have a hardertime saying I, yeah, we tend to always
frame things as we, and the biosketcheswhere like, people that have read my
bio, he'll be like, yeah, you gottatake out those weeds and put eyes in.
So, um, that's the time whenyou have to, we have to do that.
(36:18):
Right.
It's so true.
It's been hard.
Clark Rosenswe (36:21):
I think, just to add to that, it's one of the pieces
of advice that I got specificallyfrom someone who asked me to write
my own letter of recommendationfor myself, that they could, you
know, edit, uh, was, don't be shy.
Brag about yourself here, which is,it's certainly hard for me to do.
And I think it's hard for a lot ofpeople to do, but it's something you
(36:41):
also have to do when you're writingany sort of fellowship or grant.
You do have to celebrate anythingthat you've done that you feel like
has been even remotely worthwhile.
Otherwise no one will know thegreat things that you have done.
Definitely.
And if you are concerned about braggingtoo much, just write it and have someone
(37:03):
look over it and they will give youan honest perspective on, you know, if
this is coming across as too intense,or you could brag a little more, So.
Lauren Ullrich (37:11):
Yeah, that actually is the perfect transition.
Um, because we've been askingthis actually about pretty
much every aspect of the grant.
Did you get feedback on the biosketchin particular before you submitted
your grant and how did you reviseit in response to that feedback?
Tavita (37:28):
I definitely, uh, send, you know, pretty much everything that
I write to my mentor, um, so that theycan have a look at it, give me some
feedback and, uh, it's always helpful.
Joy Franco (37:40):
Yeah.
I always take my mentors feedback.
You know, I'm very lucky to be ina lab with someone who has been a
reviewer in the NIH process a lot.
And I think that that really helpswhen you're a trainee because, you
know, she kind of knows the normthat people are looking for, um,
or what they're used to seeing.
Right.
(38:00):
And, um, it can be really helpful to havesomeone, even if they're not your say PhD
advisor, but just have someone who hasexperience with that set of standards that
can then look at your, your biosketch andsay, you know, is this completely crazy?
Did you totally deviatefrom what the norm is?
(38:22):
And so I always take theadvice that she gives me.
Um, and usually, you know, it's, it'sabout wording, or I always have like
some grammatical errors in there.
I think more generally, one of the piecesof advice that I had kind of struggled
with was especially with regards to thestruggles that I had persisted through
was during a different application.
(38:44):
And I had prepared a personalstatement and I gave it to a mentor.
Their feedback was actually like,uh, I think this doesn't, this
doesn't really make me feel good.
Like it was kind of a weird thing, right.
Because it's very sad.
Like if you know all of the detailsand if I really lay everything out
there, it can be really depressing.
And I don't want to make a value judgmentabout that or get into an analysis of
(39:09):
what reviewers should or shouldn't feel.
But I will say that when you'rewriting about these struggles that
you've been through, it can be reallychallenging to find a happy medium.
And so based on that feedback,I chose to take a very direct
and, um, simple approach.
So I tried to just phrase thingsas simply as possible without
(39:33):
really getting into the details.
Partly also because I learned thatlike, you know, it's my choice,
how much detail I share, and Idon't have to go into great detail.
I can just simply stay like, youknow, this is what I'm dealing
with and leave it at that.
Clark Rosensweig (39:49):
Yeah.
I think it's really hard toacknowledge any sort of problematic
or difficult thing from your past.
Um, especially in front of a groupof strangers, which is kind of who
you're sending this application to.
So you do have to spend some timethinking about, is this something that
I want to include is this criticalfor my application to be seen in the
(40:12):
light that I want it to be seen in?
And, you know, if not,you can leave it out.
If it, if you do feel like it's important,then you do have to spend some time
thinking about how do I address it in sucha way that the ultimate effect is going to
be positive for any reviewer of the grant.
And that's hard to do
Victoria (40:32):
one way in which I've sort of tackled this is, you know, how
people often, when they're writing grants,they say, Oh, can I read your grant?
I took a different approach.
And I said, can I readyour summary statement?
So instead of like, you know,reading grants, because the science
almost is irrelevant, right?
For a lot of these training mechanisms,um, I read a lot of summary statements
(40:55):
and I tried to read in between thelines to see what were the things
that they really cared about.
And I tried to then, you know, have myapplication speak to those directly.
So sometimes reading summary statements,even without reading an application is
so informative in trying to understandwhat that is going after and how the
(41:16):
study section is going to interpretthat mechanism and its purpose.
Laure (41:21):
That's such a good point.
Um, and I'll give a little plug for oneof our resources available on the website.
So for several of our, we have thesetip sheets and I actually developed
them not by reading applications,but by reading summary statements.
So I read through hundreds of summarystatements and found like what are sort
of the common things that reviewersare always finding to be mistakes.
(41:44):
And so when you're reading thosetips sheets, that didn't just
come out of my head that came, youknow, from the mouths of reviewers.
And so I, a hundred percentagree with you, Victoria.
It's very enlightening.
Victoria Abraira (41:53):
Where do I find that website?
Where do I find the link to that?
Joy Franco (41:57):
Yeah
Marguerite Matthews (41:58):
this should also be in the show notes.
Lauren Ullrich (42:01):
It's on our training website.
So, every mechanism has a series ofresources on the side, on our website.
And one of those resources in additionto like our webinars and all that kind of
stuff, one of them is like a tips sheet.
So we have the K22, the K01,the F99, uh, I think those are
the three that I've done so far.
Um, is there anything else thatyou'd like to mention about other
(42:24):
sections of the biosketch, thingsyou might've been confused about
or, or tips and tricks that you had?
Joy Fran (42:31):
Yeah, so, you know, as a trainee, someone who's still in
their PhD program, um, you need toput this additional information, what
your Scholastic performances, and itcan be a little bit confusing because
there are usually guides about whichgrades you should include, which
ones you shouldn't or which classes.
(42:51):
And actually, because engineeringhas such a huge course requirements,
I couldn't physically fit allof my coursework into one page.
Um, so at some point I hadto leave certain things out.
And so, um, I didn't really have agood metric on what to leave out, but
I try to just focus on the classesthat seem to be most relevant to
(43:14):
what I was applying for and relevantto my experience with research.
Lauren Ullrich (43:18):
Yeah.
I think that's probably the bestapproach, you know, there's the
application guide that has the specificinstructions, but then the FOA also
sometimes has different instructions.
So like for the DSPAN award in particular,I know that, you know, we ask for graduate
grades, but not undergraduate grades.
We just ask for a list ofundergraduate classes because you're
(43:39):
senior enough in grad school bythat point that your undergraduate
grades are not super relevant.
Um, but yeah, if you ever have anyquestions like that, you can always
reach out to the program officer that isthe contact person on the FOA and they
should be able to steer you straight.
Marguerite Matthews (44:04):
All right.
Thank you all for sharingyour wisdom today.
Can I ask each of you for one last pieceof parting advice for future applicants?
Clark Ro (44:13):
I feel like my biggest piece of advice that I remember when I
was writing my F 31, just thinking thatit was nearly impossible to combine
all of the different instructionsets for, uh, how to write these
applications in such a way that I wouldget every component that I needed.
So by all means reach out toanyone, you know, who has written
(44:38):
one of these get examples.
Um, if even if the only thing youget out of them is, Oh, I'm missing
this part that I, uh, that I wouldneed if I would like to get funded.
Tavi (44:50):
I think my piece of advice would be to, uh, make a checklist because
there are a lot of tiny components andstuff that requires a couple sentences
and you don't want to miss anything.
So then I also think thathelps you plan writing.
You're correct.
Joy Franco (45:09):
I definitely had a spreadsheet when I was writing for the
DSPAN award and I had like multiplecolumns for requirements and status.
And, you know, especially like if youhave a draft, because there are so
many sections to the total applicationthat like, you'll be, you know, one
section may be reviewed by your PI andyou're waiting for it to come back.
(45:30):
Uh, so I absolutely hadto have that checklist.
Um, I think my parting advice to anybody,especially trainees though, um, and people
early stage when they're writing, um,the biosketch and the personal statement
and the contributions, you know, becauseclearly you're probably looking at other
people's biosketches to get examples.
(45:52):
And in the process of looking at thoseexamples, it can be all too easy to
start comparing yourself to other people.
And, uh, if we have anything in common,it would probably be that when I start
comparing my CV to others, I feel Istart feeling really inadequate and I
start panicking a little bit like, Ohmy gosh, I'm never going to make it
(46:14):
because, you know, I don't have enoughpublications or I don't have the pedigree
that these other applicants do it, myexperience, I have to just thoughtfully
do everything possible to quiet that voiceand to quiet that inner critic and put
her on a shelf somewhere because she'sreally a hindrance to writing, right?
(46:35):
Like that's where writer'sblock can really come from.
You're sitting, looking at thispage, how do you get started?
And you just feel inadequate and youfeel like you don't have anything
worthwhile to contribute, but that'sall coming from that inner critic.
Who's, you know, trying tocompare you to other people.
So put her in a box, put her onthe shelf and, um, you know, just
(46:57):
start writing as if you're goingto be the next Nobel Laureate.
Um, and, and really to just keep thatfaith alive that, that you can do.
Victoria Abraira (47:07):
Yeah.
I can't agree with more than with whateveryone said in my parting advice is that
as, as you make these checklists and asyou're getting, um, you know, ready to
rate and make sure that in particular,when it comes to your biosketch make sure
that you keep bird's eye view of whatevery piece of the application is saying.
(47:29):
Right.
So you want to make sure that everything'sin sync and hence why they're getting
organized in the beginning is key becausethat's, when you start to say, like,
what is the flavor of this application,what message I'm trying to convey, and
the biosketch can speak to that andthen fill in some of the gaps as well.
So getting organized is agreat part of that process.
Marguerite Matthews (47:49):
Great.
Um, Lauren, do you have anyadvice for our listeners?
Lauren (47:54):
Gosh, um, actually I of want to piggyback off of what Joy said.
Um, I think, you know, getting out ofyour own ways really important, um,
we know that imposter syndrome runsrampant in science and that a lot, a
lot of people struggle with that andsomething that I did, um, a couple
of years ago now, actually, was likevery consciously stopping critical
(48:18):
self-talk and, um, trying to breakthat pattern of like either being
disappointed in myself or beating myselfup about things and things like that.
And, um, it took a long time tobreak that habit and it's something
I'm still working on, but it'sdefinitely made my life a lot easier.
(48:39):
Um, it's something I would highlyrecommend to everyone because the world
is hard enough, especially in 2020,um, with the pandemic, uh, you don't
need to make it harder on yourself.
So what about you, Marguerite?
Marguerite M (48:53):
Okay, well, Lauren stole my idea of piggybacking off of Joy.
So let me come up with an original idea.
No, I, I'm also actually kind ofgoing back to something Joy, um,
elaborated on is, um, don't allowany setbacks you might've had or
literal failures define who you are.
(49:13):
Um, you, if you have good ideas and youbelieve in the work that you're doing,
go for it and don't feel the need toexplain it in an apologetic way, but
as an opportunity to say why thingsmay not look as someone might think
they should look for posterity sake.
I think you can be authentic to who youare without having to apologize that,
(49:37):
you know, maybe you failed every singlebiology class in undergrad, but when
you got to, you know, your master'sprogram, you were kicking butt because,
you know, you connected with the materialdifferently or, um, because of some
potential health challenges, or maybeyou decided to start a family, um,
being able to publish papers was notsomething that came particularly easy.
(49:58):
Um, or you had to take sometime away from the bench.
So those things are all, okay, don't letthat stop you from, um, still showing
all of the other things that you bring tothe table in ways that you have overcome.
Um, and I think that can reallybe highlighted and showcased,
uh, in your biosketch.
Lauren Ullrich (50:13):
Yeah.
And I'll, I'll just even say like, thosethings can make you a better scientist.
Marguerite Matthews (50:18):
Absolutely.
Lauren (50:19):
So instead of presenting them as like, I'm a good scientist,
despite all these experiences, youcan frame it, you know, even in a
more positive way of like, here'swhat I learned from these things.
Here's, here's how I'm a betterscientist because of my unique
perspective that I bring and myunique experiences that I've had.
So, um, don't think it always has to be anegative, even failure can be a positive.
(50:48):
So that's all we have time fortoday on building up the nerve.
So a huge thank you to our guests thisweek for sharing their expertise and thank
you to NINDS program director, Dr. BobRiddle, composed our theme song and music.
We'll see you next time when wetackle the candidate or applicant's
background and goals section.
Marguerite Matthew (51:09):
You can find past episodes of this podcast and more
grant application resources on theweb at NINDS.NIH.gov . Email us your
questions at NINDSnerve pod@nih.gov.
Make sure you subscribe to thepodcast on Apple podcasts or your
favorite podcast app of choiceso you don't miss an episode.
(51:30):
We'll see you next time.
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