September 17, 2024 • 25 mins
Like a prophet emerging from the haze of the Arizona desert, our guest Holly Zoba leads hospitality brands to the promised land. She has decades of experience in hotel sales and marketing, and has founded, co-founded, or been essential to companies that are dedicated to educating generations of hotel professionals.
Her classes are THE gold standard of hospitality sales training, and we talk about how digital marketing is changing to meet new audiences, getting on board the AI train, new trends in customer loyalty, and the importance of carpool etiquette on snow days.
https://hotelbschool.com/
https://www.scoutsimply.com/
https://www.influencer-sales.com/
https://hsmaiacademy.org/team/holly-zoba-chdm/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
Hi everybody, it's no Show.
I'm Matt Brown, joined asalways by Jeff Foreman.
Like a prophet emerging fromthe haze of the Arizona desert,
our guest, holly Zoba, leadshospitality brands to the
promised land.
She has decades of experiencein hotel sales and marketing and
has founded, co-founded or beenessential to companies that are
(00:29):
dedicated to educating hotelprofessionals.
Her classes are the goldstandard of hospitality sales
training and she deeplyunderstands the power of
storytelling and relationships,not just in selling but in life.
Holly's also become an experton hospitality's ever-changing,
sometimes mystifying,relationship with technology.
(00:49):
She's a full-stack webdeveloper, a prolific speaker,
tell-it-like-it-is consultant,even more tell-it-like-it-is
political junkie, supermanaficionado, washington DC
refugee and, most importantly,dog lover.
Holly Zoba, show us the light,show us the way.
Welcome to no Show.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
Way to set expectations there.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
This is nothing to you.
Come on, we're small potatoescompared to all the people that
you speak to, and you speak allaround the world.
We're catching you just afteryou've led a train session in
Puerto Rico.
Let's start with something bigand broad.
Holly, everybody asks you abouttrends.
It's the occupational hazard ofprofits.
(01:34):
What's something hotels need tounderstand about the ways
digital marketing is changingtheir interactions with new
generations of customers?
What are the next five to 10years going to look like for
people in hotel marketing?
Speaker 2 (01:52):
Big data is everything.
That's what is changingeverything.
Big data and massive computerpower, and so you hear it as AI
everywhere.
But it's not so much AI asmassive data and being able to
really personalize experiences,and so marketing should be
getting a lot smarter and a lotmore personalized, based on your
(02:16):
intent when you're searching.
There's so many ways now topick up on what people are
searching versus what theyactually are intending to do.
The data points around big datamake it more possible to kind
of extrapolate, so you don'thave to go with the obvious.
I mean, it's an exciting time,I think, to be in the hotel
(02:38):
business.
You ought to be able to.
You know the whole key tomarketing and sales is reaching
out to the right person, theright buyer, at the right time,
in the right way, the way theywant to be spoken to, the way
they want to be reached, and bigdata, ai, personalization is
making that a lot more effective, I think.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
Do you ever yearn for the days of the hotel rack
cards?
Speaker 2 (03:01):
Sure.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
Life was simpler maybe in the print era of rack
and rate cards, right.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
Well, I talk about that in the history of digital.
In the olden days we wouldprint 10,000 to 20,000 brochures
and they would be our brochureuntil they ran out, and so the
pictures might be 10 years old,but who cared?
Because nobody had a camera ora phone.
I mean that they would show upand compare what was on our
website because we didn't have awebsite with what it looked
(03:32):
like now.
So it was a simpler time andit's funny.
I was just talking about theolden days.
Also in hotel sales.
In the olden days, one personmade decisions about enormous
purchases for hotels.
As an example, I was theregional or a corporate person
(03:53):
in the DC market and a woman bythe name of Ann Taneen really
controlled about 30,000 roomnights into the DC market single
handedly room nights into theDC market single-handedly.
And so it was great if you goton Antonine's good side, because
literally it was like turningon a faucet and she was very
good at her job.
She wasn't going to send peopleto bad hotels, but if you could
(04:15):
establish the relationship,establish some credibility with
her, you really could.
We took over a new hotel in DC,we renovated it and I picked up
the phone and said Ann, this isour hotel.
Now I think we got about, youknow, 5,000 room nights.
That first year it was justturning on a faucet, and that's
not the case anymore.
Now it's really weird.
(04:36):
There are multiple peopleinvolved in even $25,000
purchase decisions, and so andas sellers and marketers, we
don't get to talk to the entirebuying committee, we still only
talk to one person, and then wehave to rely on that one person
to go back and sell us toeverybody else, which is why
(05:01):
it's so critical that marketingand sales be able to work
together today.
So really, I wish I was aprophet that could tell you
where to invest, why it's socritical that marketing and
sales be able to work togethertoday.
So really, I wish I was aprophet that could tell you
where to invest, because you'dthink, after looking at this so
closely, I would be able to tellyou okay, this is what I'm
seeing, but all I can say isbetter personalization, better
data.
That's the future.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
Well, one area in which a lot of people are
investing is AI.
At worst, ai is cast as theboogeyman for certain jobs maybe
all jobs and at best it's metwith a general sense of
tentative.
What's the first thing you tellhotel people about how AI will
make their lives and jobs better?
Speaker 2 (05:41):
So this I am passionate about AI.
I love it.
Of course, I'm aware of thetrouble it can be, but my theory
is and the same thing happenedto me when I was trying to teach
people how to do social mediaEverybody was like you know, I'm
pretty sure it's just a fad,it's going to go away.
So I don't think we're going toinvest in it.
And if you recall, many hotelswere not allowed to access
(06:03):
social media on property.
It was forbidden.
And now, today it's a differentstory and it's the same with AI
.
I was so frustrated.
A year ago I went to amarketing conference for hotels
and I talked to everybody, allthe hotel management companies.
I said what are you guys doingwith AI?
And several of them said to mewe are not allowing its use in
(06:26):
our hotels.
And I said here we go again.
Now I will say fast forward.
Six months ago and, thanks to acouple of reasons, everyone
seems to be at least trying tofigure it out.
My theory is it's not goingaway.
It really can be impactful toyour life.
Learn it, train your people onit so they don't do bad things.
(06:47):
It's very possible for them tosave hundreds of hours.
Write better.
Hoteliers are not the bestwriters, and AI can help.
It shouldn't replace you, butit can certainly help with
writing.
It can help with research.
It can help with coaching.
There's so much that it canhelp with, but it can also be a
(07:09):
nightmare if you put informationinto it that you don't want to
get out there.
So my, what I tell hotels isfigure out some use cases, and I
can help you do that.
Figure out where it's going tosave you some time, save you
some money, make you better andthen teach your employees how to
use it wisely.
So I'm a huge fan.
Speaker 3 (07:31):
Huge.
You reminded me of aconversation I had with a
general manager in 1999 aboutputting computer terminals next
to the concierge station, and hewas just absolutely forbade the
idea.
It's a terrible idea, jeff.
All they will do is playsolitaire all day instead of
paying attention to our guests.
That's right.
Speaker 1 (07:52):
Hotel advertising, like the big brands themselves,
to me can feel so monolithic andI feel like even as brands have
pushed into digital these last25 years, it can still feel like
the overall strategies are verymuch of the print and TV ad era
.
How important do you think adsare to sales efforts these days?
(08:17):
Should hotels across the boardrethink engagement across all
platforms?
Speaker 2 (08:25):
They should and mostly they have, I think I mean
certainly not all, but I workwith a couple of the digital
agencies for the brands and theycan't be as nimble as
standalone agencies for a coupleof reasons.
But what they do have is data.
(08:47):
I mean, think about, you know,let's use Marriott as an example
.
Think about the behaviors thatthey are able to look at on the
part of their guests, what theirguests search for, what the
guests do when they come totheir properties, where they end
up staying over and over theservice score, like.
Think of this massive amount ofdata that these digital
(09:09):
agencies get to look at at thesebig brands now.
And that should be what'sdriving their advertising.
And some embrace it and do itbetter than others and some are
still a little bit behind.
That's sort of just to beexpected, but they can't be
nimble because there's so manyof them.
(09:31):
I mean, you know, that certainlypresents the challenge.
The other big challenge, ofcourse, that we have are our
legacy systems.
It's the main of our existence.
I mean, when you think aboutApple or Amazon or Airbnb, they
built their systems right.
They built their technologyfrom scratch to do exactly what
(09:54):
they wanted it to do?
We are dealing with a frontdesk system that is separate
from our marketing system,that's separate from our sales
system.
You have a hotel website andyour booking engine is done by a
different company.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
Do you think that hotel companies should start
viewing themselves more liketech companies, and the argument
behind that being, now, thatyou're not owning and operating?
You know, marriott doesn't ownand operate 8,000 hotels.
Right, it is a brand company.
And if you are a brand company,why not refocus and repurpose
(10:35):
your mission a little bit to say, oh yeah, we are essentially a
technology company who is in thehospitality space?
Speaker 2 (10:45):
So I'm curious what you think the differences would
be if they thought of themselvesas a tech company.
Speaker 3 (10:50):
About a month ago, someone quoted me for saying
that if we don't start sellinglike Amazon, we'll be selling on
Amazon, and what I meant bythat and I think to your
question to us is theintuitiveness of what I'm trying
to buy.
Amazon knows what I don't evenknow I want, right, amazon is
presenting me with things thatinspire me to buy more, that
(11:16):
give me the way to buy somethingmore customized, and when I
look at hotels and I think thisis where Matt's question was
going you can only have so manybathroom photos right and
looking at you know, I'm tryingto choose a wonderful getaway
for Heather and I, and the wayI'm being directed to make that
(11:37):
choice, or the information I'mgiven to make that choice, isn't
very different than 25 yearsago.
What would Amazon do, is myquestion, and I guess, matt,
inherently that's yours.
Should the brand start sellingthat way, because it's clearly
more effective and those who doit first are going to reap the
rewards?
Speaker 2 (11:56):
It would be a very expensive venture for the reason
that I stated earlier becauseof our legacy systems.
Now we have started, you know,some systems now are integrating
better with other systems.
So we're not, you know, livingin that walled garden anymore as
much anymore, but we still areto some extent so that kind of
gets in our way anymore.
(12:18):
But we still are to some extentso that kind of gets in our way
.
But there are hotel companiesthat have made some pretty big
advancements.
I'll tell you, atlantis hasinvested in a bot that's pretty
remarkable on their website.
It's a pretty remarkableexperience.
I don't think you wouldnecessarily believe you were
talking to a bot and it isinspiring you to learn more and
(12:40):
do more and expand.
I really think they did afantastic job with it.
So I kind of feel like we'reedging.
But the big, you know, thebrands, are always going to have
to lag a little bit behindbecause they may not be in the
hotel business.
You know, they may be in thebranding business, but they work
for the owners and the ownerswould have to agree to invest
(13:06):
and the owners have to invest innew televisions and new
carpeting and renovations, andso to get them to also to invest
the sort of money is going tobe a challenge unless and this
is what I think is happeningcomputing power is becoming less
expensive, and so it may beless of an issue in five years.
Speaker 3 (13:27):
And I'm pretty biased by this with the owner.
Investment is that these arelegacy platforms that the hotel
companies choose and own.
Right, if Amazon were to cometo an owner and say, you know,
just put your inventory on ourplatform instead, they wouldn't
ask for an owner to do that techwork.
Right, just give us the productand we take care of the rest.
(13:50):
We're going to charge you forit, we're going to fleece you
for a bunch, but you could makethe case that any brand is doing
that already anyway.
So when I look at the platformcapabilities of and again, you
always pick on Marriott andHilton and Hyatt, just because
they roll off the tongue, right,but the one who figures out
first how to sell rooms whereyou don't choose first?
(14:12):
Do you want the king or thequeen when you don't first
choose which floor you want tobe on?
And these are all separateproducts.
But instead you say I'm goingto choose the hotel and you
follow a different path.
It's not bound by old legacyhierarchy.
The hotel company that doesthat first is going to wipe up
the rest.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
You know what's interesting, though?
We were on Amazon, Amazon triedto have, you know, the hotel
arm of it, and it didn't work.
Why not?
People don't want to consumehotels the same way.
It doesn't seem like it, butit's a complicated business.
I said you know, I'm sure thatyou two have encountered people
who want to buy a hotel.
Their whole life they wanted tobuy a hotel.
(14:51):
They made a lot of money in adifferent industry and they
think, oh, hotels are going tobe easy.
So they buy this hotel.
And what nightmare owners theyturn out to be.
Because they're so unrealistic.
It's not simple.
It should be simple, but it'snot.
We are open 24 hours.
Let's talk about technologyinside of the hotel, that GM
that you had with the conciergeand the computer not wanting
(15:14):
that.
We deal with guests that don'twant that.
We deal with guests that whenthey walk up to the front desk,
they want human interaction, andthen we deal with guests who
want nothing to do.
So we have to live in bothworlds.
Amazon doesn't.
Amazon has you.
Try to talk to a human atAmazon.
It's virtually impossible andthat is frustrating to some
(15:36):
people.
So we're not that bad.
Speaker 1 (15:39):
No, no, we're not saying that, of course, you know
from.
Just from a customer serviceperspective too, you have to
maintain hotels have to maintaina consistent customer service
experience for as long as thestay is at minimum and you have
to maintain that before youcheck in and after you check out
.
But let's say I'm staying at aplace for three days, for 72
(16:00):
hours.
This hotel has to maintain thatconsistency in a way that
online you dip into Amazon for10 minutes, 15 minutes, two
minutes you're out In a retailexperience, you're in the shop.
For 20 minutes you're gone.
Restaurants hour two hours,three hours max.
Hotels don't have that luxuryand that takes a ton of work.
(16:22):
And I wanted to ask what ismaybe part and parcel of that,
what is unique about marketinghotels versus other parts of the
travel industry or maybe otherindustries in general?
What's the what's somethingthat's sort of a must do, that's
really unique to thehospitality industry?
Speaker 2 (16:42):
Well, a lot of other parts.
I'm looking for airlinereservations right now.
And how do you pick yourairline?
It's your, the one that youhave any sort of loyalty to.
I mean points.
You know any sort of privileges, what's the word?
I'm looking for Status, and youknow you're going to go with
the airline where you havestatus.
And why is that?
Because you get to you knowboard earlier.
(17:05):
There's certain perks thatyou're going to get Hotels.
I have always thought ourloyalty programs were a little
bit odd, because it really hasnothing to do with loyalty.
It's same with the airlines.
It's all about what perks areyou going to give me?
And a while ago I was dabblingin customer loyalty.
I was working for a trainingcompany and there was a new
(17:28):
company out there by the name ofInfluitive.
Have you heard of them,influitive?
Speaker 1 (17:34):
No, but it sounds like the perfect tech startup
name.
It's like a cross betweeninventive and influenza.
So great, I love it.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
I love it.
Of course I wanted to try itout and it was fascinating
because it really.
It took your most loyalcustomers and you made them part
of your loyalty club.
But you ask them to do thingsfor you.
For example, if we had a newtraining class, I would do a
little video about it and Iwould ask my customers to post
(18:05):
it on their social media.
In exchange, they would getpoints that they could trade in
for gift cards or something likethat.
And here's the thing Nobodyever cashed them in very rarely.
Our loyal customers loved usand that's why they promoted us.
That's why they talked about us.
It seems to me that in thehospitality industry, that
(18:28):
should be part of our loyaltyprogram.
These guests should love us.
Instead, we've kind of createdmonsters.
Talk to any front desk clerkand they will tell you how much
trouble they have with the mostloyal customers because they're
so entitled.
It causes people to leave ourindustry.
Speaker 3 (18:48):
What giant pains in the ass.
These people are bringing alltheir money all the time.
Speaker 2 (18:53):
Right, they have the money.
We want the money.
We should embrace them.
We do not like them.
The front line does not likethem.
There's a problem there, likewe're doing something wrong, you
know.
I think that's a fundamentalchange.
We ought to try and figure outhow to make so in your HSMAI
certified hotel digital market.
Speaker 3 (19:13):
You spend a chapter, maybe even a little bit more, on
the three media types owned,paid and earned.
Owned being your hotel website,right?
Your pay, yeah, I feel likethis should just rattle right
off.
Right Paid, of course, is whatyou're buying, and then the
earned is mostly the social andwhat people are writing and
sharing about you.
(19:34):
If I got that totally wrong,we'll delete it.
You jump in for me.
That's good, uh, but myquestion is how have those
respective roles and prioritychanged over the last decade and
where are they going in thefuture decade?
Speaker 2 (19:48):
they still exist.
I think the lines just become alittle bit more blurred, and
then the components that make upeach of those have also changed
.
Right, the key to owned it isyour website, but how many
people actually own theirwebsite?
The brands own it.
You don't even own theinformation.
So you know if you have avanity site, you own that
(20:08):
website, but you get control.
So on your even on your brandedwebsite, you get some control
about the information that yourelease.
That's not really changed, norwill it.
If you own it, you're stillgoing to get to control it.
Maybe what's changed is from anearned standpoint.
Earned has always been the mostcredible, and so it's reviews,
(20:30):
it's what people share, it's youknow you can't buy it.
You've got to earn it, and soit's the most credible.
And on the flip side, of course, you have the absolute least
control.
People are becoming so cynical.
There's so much misinformationout there that I fear earned is
becoming less credible.
You know they just assume it'snot credible, and that makes for
(20:51):
an intro.
You know, influencers, there'snot credible and that makes for
an intro.
You know, influencers, there'sa lot of rules around
influencers.
You know people are a littlebit suspicious and then paid.
Paid has changed a lot.
I mean paid has changed a lot.
You know we used to do displayads, spray and pray, basically.
You know you put an ad up andyou hope that people would find
(21:11):
it.
Now we do programmatic.
We don't touch it.
Humans don't touch it.
Machines are making decisionsabout where your ad's going to
appear based on intent.
You know again people sort ofwhere their eyes are going.
It's just, it's insane.
I think paid probably haschanged more than any of them.
(21:32):
And the future with AI andpersonalization, I mean you know
we make a joke.
Google knows what you did nextsummer, because they do, and so
they're able to really market toyou.
I mean, do you ever notice theads that show up for you?
You think, are you reading mymind?
And to some extent they are.
I know people talk about youknow when I talk about it they
(21:53):
must be listening, because Ijust talked about it and now the
ad showed up.
No, they're tracking yourintent and this has been going
on for a while.
Do you remember Target?
I think got in a huge amount oftrouble because they noticed
some data points being similarwhen women were buying vitamins
and lotion, they were probablypregnant, and so they started
(22:16):
sending them ads to their homesabout, you know, the new baby,
and that was a lot of trouble.
Well, now we're there.
Times a thousand.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
It's time for the mystery question.
What is something, maybe fromyour personal history even, that
you tell salespeople to never,ever do, under any circumstances
.
Don't say this, don't send thiskind of email?
Do you have sort of a cardinallaw about a no-no?
Speaker 2 (22:47):
Probably a thousand, I mean, I don't just have one
Like there's.
You know, I've made everymistake possible because I've
been doing this for so long.
For example, remember when Iwas talking about how decision
makers, there used to be justone, you know, and they
controlled.
So the decision maker forBoeing in Washington DC, I'm not
going to say her name.
I became friends with her andone time she called me and asked
(23:11):
me for a ride to work.
She lived not very far from meand it was the dead of winter
and something was wrong with hercar and I said oh sure, I'll
pick you up, you know.
And she said I'll come outsidebecause it's hard to get into my
driveway with the snow, blah,blah.
I said, great, I forgot.
I completely forgot.
I left the woman responsiblefor millions of dollars of hotel
rooms standing outside in and Ididn't think about it until
(23:35):
about 10 o'clock in the morningand I was like, oh my God, I
can't believe it.
So don't do that.
But I know that's not reallyyour question.
So one of the things that I doteach this is so funny and
you've probably gotten theseemails.
It's annoying.
By the way, email hasn'tchanged, it's still number one.
You know we get bazillions ofthem, but it's just like the old
(23:57):
days with junk mail you openthe ones that appeal to what
you're looking for because youhave a need for it at that
moment.
Anyways, the emails that saygosh, I've sent you several
emails and you haven't responded.
And I'm just wondering if Idiscourage people from writing
that, because who wants to beshamed, like, first of all, if I
(24:18):
meant to call you and I didn't,you're shaming me.
Second of all, if I didn't meanto call you or I didn't mean to
reach back out to you, it'sobvious because I didn't, so
leave me alone.
So I'm not a fan of that.
It's obvious because I didn't,so leave me alone, so I'm not a
fan of that.
One thing that I was going tosay that hasn't changed in all
of these years is people stillwant authenticity.
(24:40):
Right, you can make mistakes,and they're OK with it, as long
as you appear sincere andgenuine when you write emails,
when you write ads, when youwrite social posts.
It's one reason AI is not goingto take over everything,
because it's a little bit tooperfect.
It's.
People recognize that they wantsome authenticity.
(25:01):
That hasn't changed no matterwhat else has evolved.
Authenticity, sincerity, youknow.
Being genuine, beingtrustworthy still outranks
everything else.
So I tell people don't sellyour soul.
Speaker 3 (25:17):
I appreciate that, because we intentionally keep
this podcast imperfect.
Speaker 1 (25:23):
It's better.
Yes, we excel at it Really,Jeff.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
The art of it.
Speaker 1 (25:28):
Yeah, it's an art.
It's an art and a science and,just to recap, I like these
because it's like stay authentic, don't sleep on email and don't
pick up clients in the middleof winter.
I think that's a solid three.
The prophet has spoken everyone.
Holly Zoba, thank you for beinga guest on no Show.
Speaker 2 (25:47):
Thanks for having me.
Hi everybody, it's no Show.
I'm Matt Brown, joined asalways by Jeff Foreman.
Like a prophet emerging fromthe haze of the Arizona desert,
our guest, holly Zoba, leadshospitality brands to the
promised land.
She has decades of experiencein hotel sales and marketing and
has founded, co-founded or beenessential to companies that are
(00:29):
dedicated to educating hotelprofessionals.
Her classes are the goldstandard of hospitality sales
training and she deeplyunderstands the power of
storytelling and relationships,not just in selling but in life.
Holly's also become an experton hospitality's ever-changing,
sometimes mystifying,relationship with technology.
(00:49):
She's a full-stack webdeveloper, a prolific speaker,
tell-it-like-it-is consultant,even more tell-it-like-it-is
political junkie, supermanaficionado, washington DC
refugee and, most importantly,dog lover.
Holly Zoba, show us the light,show us the way.
Welcome to no Show.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
Way to set expectations there.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
This is nothing to you.
Come on, we're small potatoescompared to all the people that
you speak to, and you speak allaround the world.
We're catching you just afteryou've led a train session in
Puerto Rico.
Let's start with something bigand broad.
Holly, everybody asks you abouttrends.
It's the occupational hazard ofprofits.
(01:34):
What's something hotels need tounderstand about the ways
digital marketing is changingtheir interactions with new
generations of customers?
What are the next five to 10years going to look like for
people in hotel marketing?
Speaker 2 (01:52):
Big data is everything.
That's what is changingeverything.
Big data and massive computerpower, and so you hear it as AI
everywhere.
But it's not so much AI asmassive data and being able to
really personalize experiences,and so marketing should be
getting a lot smarter and a lotmore personalized, based on your
(02:16):
intent when you're searching.
There's so many ways now topick up on what people are
searching versus what theyactually are intending to do.
The data points around big datamake it more possible to kind
of extrapolate, so you don'thave to go with the obvious.
I mean, it's an exciting time,I think, to be in the hotel
(02:38):
business.
You ought to be able to.
You know the whole key tomarketing and sales is reaching
out to the right person, theright buyer, at the right time,
in the right way, the way theywant to be spoken to, the way
they want to be reached, and bigdata, ai, personalization is
making that a lot more effective, I think.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
Do you ever yearn for the days of the hotel rack
cards?
Speaker 2 (03:01):
Sure.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
Life was simpler maybe in the print era of rack
and rate cards, right.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
Well, I talk about that in the history of digital.
In the olden days we wouldprint 10,000 to 20,000 brochures
and they would be our brochureuntil they ran out, and so the
pictures might be 10 years old,but who cared?
Because nobody had a camera ora phone.
I mean that they would show upand compare what was on our
website because we didn't have awebsite with what it looked
(03:32):
like now.
So it was a simpler time andit's funny.
I was just talking about theolden days.
Also in hotel sales.
In the olden days, one personmade decisions about enormous
purchases for hotels.
As an example, I was theregional or a corporate person
(03:53):
in the DC market and a woman bythe name of Ann Taneen really
controlled about 30,000 roomnights into the DC market single
handedly room nights into theDC market single-handedly.
And so it was great if you goton Antonine's good side, because
literally it was like turningon a faucet and she was very
good at her job.
She wasn't going to send peopleto bad hotels, but if you could
(04:15):
establish the relationship,establish some credibility with
her, you really could.
We took over a new hotel in DC,we renovated it and I picked up
the phone and said Ann, this isour hotel.
Now I think we got about, youknow, 5,000 room nights.
That first year it was justturning on a faucet, and that's
not the case anymore.
Now it's really weird.
(04:36):
There are multiple peopleinvolved in even $25,000
purchase decisions, and so andas sellers and marketers, we
don't get to talk to the entirebuying committee, we still only
talk to one person, and then wehave to rely on that one person
to go back and sell us toeverybody else, which is why
(05:01):
it's so critical that marketingand sales be able to work
together today.
So really, I wish I was aprophet that could tell you
where to invest, why it's socritical that marketing and
sales be able to work togethertoday.
So really, I wish I was aprophet that could tell you
where to invest, because you'dthink, after looking at this so
closely, I would be able to tellyou okay, this is what I'm
seeing, but all I can say isbetter personalization, better
data.
That's the future.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
Well, one area in which a lot of people are
investing is AI.
At worst, ai is cast as theboogeyman for certain jobs maybe
all jobs and at best it's metwith a general sense of
tentative.
What's the first thing you tellhotel people about how AI will
make their lives and jobs better?
Speaker 2 (05:41):
So this I am passionate about AI.
I love it.
Of course, I'm aware of thetrouble it can be, but my theory
is and the same thing happenedto me when I was trying to teach
people how to do social mediaEverybody was like you know, I'm
pretty sure it's just a fad,it's going to go away.
So I don't think we're going toinvest in it.
And if you recall, many hotelswere not allowed to access
(06:03):
social media on property.
It was forbidden.
And now, today it's a differentstory and it's the same with AI
.
I was so frustrated.
A year ago I went to amarketing conference for hotels
and I talked to everybody, allthe hotel management companies.
I said what are you guys doingwith AI?
And several of them said to mewe are not allowing its use in
(06:26):
our hotels.
And I said here we go again.
Now I will say fast forward.
Six months ago and, thanks to acouple of reasons, everyone
seems to be at least trying tofigure it out.
My theory is it's not goingaway.
It really can be impactful toyour life.
Learn it, train your people onit so they don't do bad things.
(06:47):
It's very possible for them tosave hundreds of hours.
Write better.
Hoteliers are not the bestwriters, and AI can help.
It shouldn't replace you, butit can certainly help with
writing.
It can help with research.
It can help with coaching.
There's so much that it canhelp with, but it can also be a
(07:09):
nightmare if you put informationinto it that you don't want to
get out there.
So my, what I tell hotels isfigure out some use cases, and I
can help you do that.
Figure out where it's going tosave you some time, save you
some money, make you better andthen teach your employees how to
use it wisely.
So I'm a huge fan.
Speaker 3 (07:31):
Huge.
You reminded me of aconversation I had with a
general manager in 1999 aboutputting computer terminals next
to the concierge station, and hewas just absolutely forbade the
idea.
It's a terrible idea, jeff.
All they will do is playsolitaire all day instead of
paying attention to our guests.
That's right.
Speaker 1 (07:52):
Hotel advertising, like the big brands themselves,
to me can feel so monolithic andI feel like even as brands have
pushed into digital these last25 years, it can still feel like
the overall strategies are verymuch of the print and TV ad era
.
How important do you think adsare to sales efforts these days?
(08:17):
Should hotels across the boardrethink engagement across all
platforms?
Speaker 2 (08:25):
They should and mostly they have, I think I mean
certainly not all, but I workwith a couple of the digital
agencies for the brands and theycan't be as nimble as
standalone agencies for a coupleof reasons.
But what they do have is data.
(08:47):
I mean, think about, you know,let's use Marriott as an example
.
Think about the behaviors thatthey are able to look at on the
part of their guests, what theirguests search for, what the
guests do when they come totheir properties, where they end
up staying over and over theservice score, like.
Think of this massive amount ofdata that these digital
(09:09):
agencies get to look at at thesebig brands now.
And that should be what'sdriving their advertising.
And some embrace it and do itbetter than others and some are
still a little bit behind.
That's sort of just to beexpected, but they can't be
nimble because there's so manyof them.
(09:31):
I mean, you know, that certainlypresents the challenge.
The other big challenge, ofcourse, that we have are our
legacy systems.
It's the main of our existence.
I mean, when you think aboutApple or Amazon or Airbnb, they
built their systems right.
They built their technologyfrom scratch to do exactly what
(09:54):
they wanted it to do?
We are dealing with a frontdesk system that is separate
from our marketing system,that's separate from our sales
system.
You have a hotel website andyour booking engine is done by a
different company.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
Do you think that hotel companies should start
viewing themselves more liketech companies, and the argument
behind that being, now, thatyou're not owning and operating?
You know, marriott doesn't ownand operate 8,000 hotels.
Right, it is a brand company.
And if you are a brand company,why not refocus and repurpose
(10:35):
your mission a little bit to say, oh yeah, we are essentially a
technology company who is in thehospitality space?
Speaker 2 (10:45):
So I'm curious what you think the differences would
be if they thought of themselvesas a tech company.
Speaker 3 (10:50):
About a month ago, someone quoted me for saying
that if we don't start sellinglike Amazon, we'll be selling on
Amazon, and what I meant bythat and I think to your
question to us is theintuitiveness of what I'm trying
to buy.
Amazon knows what I don't evenknow I want, right, amazon is
presenting me with things thatinspire me to buy more, that
(11:16):
give me the way to buy somethingmore customized, and when I
look at hotels and I think thisis where Matt's question was
going you can only have so manybathroom photos right and
looking at you know, I'm tryingto choose a wonderful getaway
for Heather and I, and the wayI'm being directed to make that
(11:37):
choice, or the information I'mgiven to make that choice, isn't
very different than 25 yearsago.
What would Amazon do, is myquestion, and I guess, matt,
inherently that's yours.
Should the brand start sellingthat way, because it's clearly
more effective and those who doit first are going to reap the
rewards?
Speaker 2 (11:56):
It would be a very expensive venture for the reason
that I stated earlier becauseof our legacy systems.
Now we have started, you know,some systems now are integrating
better with other systems.
So we're not, you know, livingin that walled garden anymore as
much anymore, but we still areto some extent so that kind of
gets in our way anymore.
(12:18):
But we still are to some extentso that kind of gets in our way
.
But there are hotel companiesthat have made some pretty big
advancements.
I'll tell you, atlantis hasinvested in a bot that's pretty
remarkable on their website.
It's a pretty remarkableexperience.
I don't think you wouldnecessarily believe you were
talking to a bot and it isinspiring you to learn more and
(12:40):
do more and expand.
I really think they did afantastic job with it.
So I kind of feel like we'reedging.
But the big, you know, thebrands, are always going to have
to lag a little bit behindbecause they may not be in the
hotel business.
You know, they may be in thebranding business, but they work
for the owners and the ownerswould have to agree to invest
(13:06):
and the owners have to invest innew televisions and new
carpeting and renovations, andso to get them to also to invest
the sort of money is going tobe a challenge unless and this
is what I think is happeningcomputing power is becoming less
expensive, and so it may beless of an issue in five years.
Speaker 3 (13:27):
And I'm pretty biased by this with the owner.
Investment is that these arelegacy platforms that the hotel
companies choose and own.
Right, if Amazon were to cometo an owner and say, you know,
just put your inventory on ourplatform instead, they wouldn't
ask for an owner to do that techwork.
Right, just give us the productand we take care of the rest.
(13:50):
We're going to charge you forit, we're going to fleece you
for a bunch, but you could makethe case that any brand is doing
that already anyway.
So when I look at the platformcapabilities of and again, you
always pick on Marriott andHilton and Hyatt, just because
they roll off the tongue, right,but the one who figures out
first how to sell rooms whereyou don't choose first?
(14:12):
Do you want the king or thequeen when you don't first
choose which floor you want tobe on?
And these are all separateproducts.
But instead you say I'm goingto choose the hotel and you
follow a different path.
It's not bound by old legacyhierarchy.
The hotel company that doesthat first is going to wipe up
the rest.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
You know what's interesting, though?
We were on Amazon, Amazon triedto have, you know, the hotel
arm of it, and it didn't work.
Why not?
People don't want to consumehotels the same way.
It doesn't seem like it, butit's a complicated business.
I said you know, I'm sure thatyou two have encountered people
who want to buy a hotel.
Their whole life they wanted tobuy a hotel.
(14:51):
They made a lot of money in adifferent industry and they
think, oh, hotels are going tobe easy.
So they buy this hotel.
And what nightmare owners theyturn out to be.
Because they're so unrealistic.
It's not simple.
It should be simple, but it'snot.
We are open 24 hours.
Let's talk about technologyinside of the hotel, that GM
that you had with the conciergeand the computer not wanting
(15:14):
that.
We deal with guests that don'twant that.
We deal with guests that whenthey walk up to the front desk,
they want human interaction, andthen we deal with guests who
want nothing to do.
So we have to live in bothworlds.
Amazon doesn't.
Amazon has you.
Try to talk to a human atAmazon.
It's virtually impossible andthat is frustrating to some
(15:36):
people.
So we're not that bad.
Speaker 1 (15:39):
No, no, we're not saying that, of course, you know
from.
Just from a customer serviceperspective too, you have to
maintain hotels have to maintaina consistent customer service
experience for as long as thestay is at minimum and you have
to maintain that before youcheck in and after you check out
.
But let's say I'm staying at aplace for three days, for 72
(16:00):
hours.
This hotel has to maintain thatconsistency in a way that
online you dip into Amazon for10 minutes, 15 minutes, two
minutes you're out In a retailexperience, you're in the shop.
For 20 minutes you're gone.
Restaurants hour two hours,three hours max.
Hotels don't have that luxuryand that takes a ton of work.
(16:22):
And I wanted to ask what ismaybe part and parcel of that,
what is unique about marketinghotels versus other parts of the
travel industry or maybe otherindustries in general?
What's the what's somethingthat's sort of a must do, that's
really unique to thehospitality industry?
Speaker 2 (16:42):
Well, a lot of other parts.
I'm looking for airlinereservations right now.
And how do you pick yourairline?
It's your, the one that youhave any sort of loyalty to.
I mean points.
You know any sort of privileges, what's the word?
I'm looking for Status, and youknow you're going to go with
the airline where you havestatus.
And why is that?
Because you get to you knowboard earlier.
(17:05):
There's certain perks thatyou're going to get Hotels.
I have always thought ourloyalty programs were a little
bit odd, because it really hasnothing to do with loyalty.
It's same with the airlines.
It's all about what perks areyou going to give me?
And a while ago I was dabblingin customer loyalty.
I was working for a trainingcompany and there was a new
(17:28):
company out there by the name ofInfluitive.
Have you heard of them,influitive?
Speaker 1 (17:34):
No, but it sounds like the perfect tech startup
name.
It's like a cross betweeninventive and influenza.
So great, I love it.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
I love it.
Of course I wanted to try itout and it was fascinating
because it really.
It took your most loyalcustomers and you made them part
of your loyalty club.
But you ask them to do thingsfor you.
For example, if we had a newtraining class, I would do a
little video about it and Iwould ask my customers to post
(18:05):
it on their social media.
In exchange, they would getpoints that they could trade in
for gift cards or something likethat.
And here's the thing Nobodyever cashed them in very rarely.
Our loyal customers loved usand that's why they promoted us.
That's why they talked about us.
It seems to me that in thehospitality industry, that
(18:28):
should be part of our loyaltyprogram.
These guests should love us.
Instead, we've kind of createdmonsters.
Talk to any front desk clerkand they will tell you how much
trouble they have with the mostloyal customers because they're
so entitled.
It causes people to leave ourindustry.
Speaker 3 (18:48):
What giant pains in the ass.
These people are bringing alltheir money all the time.
Speaker 2 (18:53):
Right, they have the money.
We want the money.
We should embrace them.
We do not like them.
The front line does not likethem.
There's a problem there, likewe're doing something wrong, you
know.
I think that's a fundamentalchange.
We ought to try and figure outhow to make so in your HSMAI
certified hotel digital market.
Speaker 3 (19:13):
You spend a chapter, maybe even a little bit more, on
the three media types owned,paid and earned.
Owned being your hotel website,right?
Your pay, yeah, I feel likethis should just rattle right
off.
Right Paid, of course, is whatyou're buying, and then the
earned is mostly the social andwhat people are writing and
sharing about you.
(19:34):
If I got that totally wrong,we'll delete it.
You jump in for me.
That's good, uh, but myquestion is how have those
respective roles and prioritychanged over the last decade and
where are they going in thefuture decade?
Speaker 2 (19:48):
they still exist.
I think the lines just become alittle bit more blurred, and
then the components that make upeach of those have also changed
.
Right, the key to owned it isyour website, but how many
people actually own theirwebsite?
The brands own it.
You don't even own theinformation.
So you know if you have avanity site, you own that
(20:08):
website, but you get control.
So on your even on your brandedwebsite, you get some control
about the information that yourelease.
That's not really changed, norwill it.
If you own it, you're stillgoing to get to control it.
Maybe what's changed is from anearned standpoint.
Earned has always been the mostcredible, and so it's reviews,
(20:30):
it's what people share, it's youknow you can't buy it.
You've got to earn it, and soit's the most credible.
And on the flip side, of course, you have the absolute least
control.
People are becoming so cynical.
There's so much misinformationout there that I fear earned is
becoming less credible.
You know they just assume it'snot credible, and that makes for
(20:51):
an intro.
You know, influencers, there'snot credible and that makes for
an intro.
You know, influencers, there'sa lot of rules around
influencers.
You know people are a littlebit suspicious and then paid.
Paid has changed a lot.
I mean paid has changed a lot.
You know we used to do displayads, spray and pray, basically.
You know you put an ad up andyou hope that people would find
(21:11):
it.
Now we do programmatic.
We don't touch it.
Humans don't touch it.
Machines are making decisionsabout where your ad's going to
appear based on intent.
You know again people sort ofwhere their eyes are going.
It's just, it's insane.
I think paid probably haschanged more than any of them.
(21:32):
And the future with AI andpersonalization, I mean you know
we make a joke.
Google knows what you did nextsummer, because they do, and so
they're able to really market toyou.
I mean, do you ever notice theads that show up for you?
You think, are you reading mymind?
And to some extent they are.
I know people talk about youknow when I talk about it they
(21:53):
must be listening, because Ijust talked about it and now the
ad showed up.
No, they're tracking yourintent and this has been going
on for a while.
Do you remember Target?
I think got in a huge amount oftrouble because they noticed
some data points being similarwhen women were buying vitamins
and lotion, they were probablypregnant, and so they started
(22:16):
sending them ads to their homesabout, you know, the new baby,
and that was a lot of trouble.
Well, now we're there.
Times a thousand.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
It's time for the mystery question.
What is something, maybe fromyour personal history even, that
you tell salespeople to never,ever do, under any circumstances
.
Don't say this, don't send thiskind of email?
Do you have sort of a cardinallaw about a no-no?
Speaker 2 (22:47):
Probably a thousand, I mean, I don't just have one
Like there's.
You know, I've made everymistake possible because I've
been doing this for so long.
For example, remember when Iwas talking about how decision
makers, there used to be justone, you know, and they
controlled.
So the decision maker forBoeing in Washington DC, I'm not
going to say her name.
I became friends with her andone time she called me and asked
(23:11):
me for a ride to work.
She lived not very far from meand it was the dead of winter
and something was wrong with hercar and I said oh sure, I'll
pick you up, you know.
And she said I'll come outsidebecause it's hard to get into my
driveway with the snow, blah,blah.
I said, great, I forgot.
I completely forgot.
I left the woman responsiblefor millions of dollars of hotel
rooms standing outside in and Ididn't think about it until
(23:35):
about 10 o'clock in the morningand I was like, oh my God, I
can't believe it.
So don't do that.
But I know that's not reallyyour question.
So one of the things that I doteach this is so funny and
you've probably gotten theseemails.
It's annoying.
By the way, email hasn'tchanged, it's still number one.
You know we get bazillions ofthem, but it's just like the old
(23:57):
days with junk mail you openthe ones that appeal to what
you're looking for because youhave a need for it at that
moment.
Anyways, the emails that saygosh, I've sent you several
emails and you haven't responded.
And I'm just wondering if Idiscourage people from writing
that, because who wants to beshamed, like, first of all, if I
(24:18):
meant to call you and I didn't,you're shaming me.
Second of all, if I didn't meanto call you or I didn't mean to
reach back out to you, it'sobvious because I didn't, so
leave me alone.
So I'm not a fan of that.
It's obvious because I didn't,so leave me alone, so I'm not a
fan of that.
One thing that I was going tosay that hasn't changed in all
of these years is people stillwant authenticity.
(24:40):
Right, you can make mistakes,and they're OK with it, as long
as you appear sincere andgenuine when you write emails,
when you write ads, when youwrite social posts.
It's one reason AI is not goingto take over everything,
because it's a little bit tooperfect.
It's.
People recognize that they wantsome authenticity.
(25:01):
That hasn't changed no matterwhat else has evolved.
Authenticity, sincerity, youknow.
Being genuine, beingtrustworthy still outranks
everything else.
So I tell people don't sellyour soul.
Speaker 3 (25:17):
I appreciate that, because we intentionally keep
this podcast imperfect.
Speaker 1 (25:23):
It's better.
Yes, we excel at it Really,Jeff.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
The art of it.
Speaker 1 (25:28):
Yeah, it's an art.
It's an art and a science and,just to recap, I like these
because it's like stay authentic, don't sleep on email and don't
pick up clients in the middleof winter.
I think that's a solid three.
The prophet has spoken everyone.
Holly Zoba, thank you for beinga guest on no Show.
Speaker 2 (25:47):
Thanks for having me.
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