October 1, 2024 • 32 mins
Are "sensory inclusive" cities possible? Why do we take the basic UX of airports, hotels, and public spaces for granted? What's the report card on hotel and travel company marketing to LGBTQ+ audiences? What's the problem with carbon offsets? And why aren't more airports like PDX? Matt and Jeff solve mysteries and speak truths with JD Shadel, a London-based strategist, editor, and freelance journalist working at the intersection of tech and lifestyle, and you can read their recent work at:
https://www.cntraveler.com/contributor/jd-shadel
https://www.jdshadel.com/
https://www.washingtonpost.com/people/jd-shadel/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
Hi everybody, Welcome to no Show.
I'm Matt Brown, joined asalways by Jeff Borman.
Our guest today.
Jd Shadel writes the Future ofTravel column for Condé Nast
Traveler and is editor-at-largeat Good On you, the leading
platform rating brands oncritical social and
environmental issues.
Jd's written for the WashingtonPost, for them, for the BBC.
(00:31):
They have a master's degreewith distinction in
international relations from theUniversity of Exeter and is a
former human rights commissionerfor the city of Portland.
Jd's work has been featured asan example in the
Merriam-Webster Dictionary.
You know you've made it whenyou've done that.
They're a fantastic moderatorand MC, a fashion icon, an
(00:54):
inspired social critic, currentLondon resident, and JD is,
hands down, the best personnamed JD you will ever meet from
Appalachia.
Jd, welcome to no Show.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
Wow, I'm extremely honored by that introduction.
As I like to sometimes say, Iam the queen of lifestyle, so
I'm being sarcastic I feel likethat went way above and beyond.
Thank you so much.
I'm so excited to chat with youboth and I've been listening to
your past archive of podcastsand I have to say you are
(01:28):
excellent hosts and I'm excitedto see what questions we get
into.
I said at the start, when youfirst invited me on the show,
that you could ask me anything,so let's see where we go.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
One of the things I find most challenging for travel
writers is balancing thenarrative of being objective and
also subjective.
Right, gonzo journalism, hunterS Thompson, anthony Bourdain,
all the way over, to juststraight up travel guides, rick
Steves style.
Right, they've all got theirplace.
The middle, however, gets kindof tough, really tough.
(01:58):
What's an op-ed and what's anobjective?
Look at a place is somethingthat I think seasoned travelers
really think about when theyread good writers.
How do you navigate throughthat?
Speaker 2 (02:10):
It's a really interesting question because,
firstly, ethics in traveljournalism, I think, are quite
murky.
I don't think a lot of peoplehave a lot of fluency in terms
of how travel journalism isproduced.
There's, you know, a wholenetwork of PR that's happening
behind the scenes.
Who gets featured often relatesto the budget that they have to
(02:31):
, you know, get the word outabout how great they are.
And travel journalism itself isa hard to monetize profession,
to be honest, and so a lot ofpeople that are committed to
that quite full time are alsodoing a blend of different
things.
And in that context I think itcan be quite easy to, you know,
(02:52):
just go on the press trips, justwrite about what you're paid to
see and experience, and I'vealways felt a little icky about
that kind of approach.
That's not any slight to anyonethat does that.
I think there's actually areally good argument for why
travel writers unfortunatelyneed to take press trips, you
(03:14):
know, as just a way of likebudget for the experience and
for the coverage which mediaoutlets are rarely providing.
So first just say there's a lotof icky feeling things
happening in travel journalism.
That said, there've been somereally positive things that have
emerged in years.
One is the focus on avoidingparachute journalism, which has
(03:39):
been sort of the norm.
I think that's led to a lot ofexotifying people in places when
you know predominantly whitemen are traveling around the
world and writing about theirexperiences, their impression of
a place.
I think there's been a move todiversify the voices telling
these stories, a focus more onlocal storytelling.
(03:59):
One of the projects that I ammost proud of in my career was I
was the Portland Oregon travelwriter for the Washington Post
for a number of years while Iwas based in Portland and I got
to work with the digital team onthat.
That project, which was so coolbecause really they uh work.
They did like 50 city guides tocities all over the world and
(04:19):
there was no parachutejournalism.
It was working with locals onthe ground, have locals tell the
story.
Of course that creates its ownsort of dynamic of you know the
locals are gonna hopefully lovewhere they're at.
But yeah, I think it's.
It's really an interestingdynamic where travel journalism
is itself a challenging ethicalprofession and I think that
(04:40):
creates, you know, some blurredlines in terms of, like you said
, like what is opinion, what issubjective, who's paying for
that experience?
And I think that's reallyinteresting.
I just wish a little bit moreliteracy in audiences could help
people read a bit morecritically as well.
Speaker 3 (05:00):
Yeah, you know, my background is almost all on the
hotel side, and when travelagencies come on a paid expense
trip to a group of hotels tolearn about the hotel and then
guide their travelers, it's verytransparent, right.
I mean, they are there, theyare paid to be there, they are
there to influence.
You know, the originalinfluencers in travel are travel
agents, right, but it's verytransparent that that is the
(05:22):
role and that's why they're paidon these all in all included
trips.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
You can't do it unless you're comped
economically.
Not really A newspaper, even amidsize or large newspaper,
can't say OK, go out and do apiece on the Fontainebleau in
Las Vegas and we're going to payfor all your travel, we're
going to pay for the room, we'regoing to pay for all your meals
.
It kind of reminds me of likecelebrity access, like, okay,
we're going to give you thiscomp stuff Only if we know that
you're going to give us a review.
(05:48):
That's pretty good, you'renever going to travel all the
way out there and then trash theplace.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
I think that's a really valid point, which is
just like the, the budget fortravel journalism doesn't really
exist on the media side anymore.
There are a few outlets that doprovide that budget, but
they're far and few between, anda lot of the content that you
see is necessarily funded by thesubject of the reporting, which
you know is is great, forexposure doesn't lend itself to
(06:19):
much critical assessment of adestination's merits, and I
think that's where I used towork in guidebook writing as
well, and I was a travel editorand that was one thing I
observed, which is it's like youknow, you'd see, destinations
that had the budget to host alot of travel writers would get
a lot more of the coverage and alot more of the glowing
(06:40):
coverage, and I think that'swhere it's just a bit
challenging.
The whole economics of traveljournalism are kind of fucked up
.
Speaker 3 (06:48):
How does a true professional as you are and
Conde Nast sets the goldstandard how do you compete then
, today, with influencers whoare just putting out 200
characters at a time andbasically entering right into
your space, but, in my opinion,far more on the take?
How do you compete with that?
Speaker 2 (07:10):
I don't necessarily view influencers as a competitor
of travel journalism.
I think they serve slightlydifferent purposes so I wouldn't
necessarily say Condé NastTraveler, for example, which is
one publication I contribute to,is in competition with
influencers.
(07:31):
I'd say we are a part of a veryfascinating and broadening
ecosystem of inspiration andinformation about travel, about
the world, and there's somereally positive, cool stuff
happening on social where Ithink social has had a lot of
negative impacts on travel,certainly in discourses around
(07:53):
destinations and over tourism.
The flip side is that it's also, you know, opened up an
audience for folks who might notnormally get featured in the
traditional gatekeeping barriersof travel journalism, and so
I'd say it's a mixed bag, butthey're not really in
competition.
They're often serving verydifferent audiences, very
different needs and hostingdifferent and interesting kinds
(08:17):
of conversations.
So there is, of course, likethe icky influencer, you know,
pay to play kind of thing, whichnobody really loves.
But I think what I'm reallytalking about is most
influencers would prefer to callthemselves content creators and
I think within the world ofcontent creation that there's a
really a lot of interestingstuff happening, a lot of really
(08:39):
interesting voices, a lot oftalented people that are, you
know, showing us the world indifferent ways than travel
journalism might traditionallydo.
Speaker 1 (08:48):
Let's dig into some of your recent articles, which
are fascinating.
We all take, I think, the userexperience of airports, hotels
and public spaces for grantedand we skip over how the UX for
those experiences is tested fora very narrow slice of the
(09:09):
sensory, gender, age, identity,high of the population, and it's
given rise to a term calledsensory inclusive city.
Philadelphia just announceditself as one.
Can you talk a little bit about?
You just wrote an article onthis.
Can you talk a little bit aboutwhat a sensory inclusive city
is and what it aims to be?
Speaker 2 (09:32):
So sensory inclusive city is a really interesting
term because in reality it'skind of a myth.
It aims to solve some very realchallenges.
Sensory processing challengesare experienced by a wide swath
of the traveling public.
A lot of people have invisibledisabilities, a lot of people
(09:59):
have different sensory needsthat mean just the experience of
travel can be quite stressfuland, as you pointed out, we
don't really think about thedesign of public spaces like
airports or hospitalitydestinations like resorts,
museums, hotels, through a veryinclusive lens.
So I think the last decade orso we've seen a rise of
certifications that often focuson training but also the
(10:24):
facilities.
There's a growing awareness ofdesign, sensory inclusive design
as well, and just inclusivedesign across the board.
Some of that is regulated bydifferent you know the ADA in
America, for example, but a lotof other sensory needs are not
(10:49):
really thought of or centered inconversation.
So it's a really importanttopic.
But I say it's a myth becausethe reality is you can't create
a sensory inclusive city and youcan't create.
You know, training doesn'tnecessarily address a lot of
sensory needs and, as some ofthe people I spoke to in the
article acknowledged, it's avery good goal.
It might be more appropriate touse terminology like a
(11:09):
sensory-informed city, focusingon training, focusing on
providing resources to folks whotravel with different needs and
abilities, and that's reallywhat we get into.
That was a piece I published inthe Future of Travel column and
that's exactly the kinds of bigquestions we like to ask.
Look at something likePhiladelphia's certification.
(11:30):
What that means, what thatactually you know, is that a
certification other citiesshould be looking to, and it's a
really positive development.
It's just it's a bit confusingsometimes for travelers,
including those with sensoryprocessing needs, to think about
, like you know, what thatactually has an effect on their
travel?
Speaker 1 (11:49):
Are there just a bunch of different entities out
there saying, oh yeah, we'llcertify you this way and we'll
certify you that way, and nowyou can have a thing up on the
front door of your place thatsays that you are a good person.
Speaker 2 (12:01):
Certainly, the quality of certifying bodies
varies greatly.
The focus of the article Ireported was an organization, a
nonprofit organization calledCulture City, who I actually
have visited many destinationsthat have received their sensory
(12:21):
inclusive certification andhave to say that I think they're
doing really amazing work forpeople with sensory needs.
As someone who can fit underthat umbrella, that very broad
umbrella that they apply, I'veused some of the amenities that
they've they've offeredtravelers at different
destinations and it can saythey're doing really good work.
They have a really rigoroustraining scheme, and I think
(12:46):
where their work really shinesis stadiums, event venues really
like those places where, forexample, if you're at a game or
a concert and you areexperiencing overstimulation
once upon a time, you might haveto leave the stadium and you
(13:08):
might not get let back in due toticketing rules, and so the way
Culture City has worked tocreate, you know, multi-sensory
rooms in stadiums and a lot ofNFL stadiums, I think is a
really empowering, powerfulstory.
Stadiums, I think is a reallyempowering, powerful story.
(13:29):
Questions, though, start toarise.
With a lot of othercertification schemes, even
Culture City, I think you knowthere's not a lot of information
on their website about whatthat certification means what it
accomplishes, its efficacy, andthat can make it hard for
travelers to necessarilyunderstand and navigate all of
the different certificationsthat are targeting often very
specific groups of travelers.
(13:51):
Some try to take more of abroader umbrella approach and
sensory needs are just one ofmany areas of the of the
traveling world that hascertifications.
So it's a really interestingconversation world that has
certifications.
So it's a really interestingconversation and I'd say it's a
lot of good intentions and theefficacy just really depends on
what goes into thosecertifications.
And I have to say the piece youknow has some criticism of the
(14:14):
sensory inclusive cityterminology.
But overall I was veryimpressed with my experiences
with culture city and thinkthey're good people.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
Speaking of certifications, let's pivot to
greenwashing, one of ourfavorite subjects on the show,
and we definitely want to hearyour thoughts on sustainable
travel and the feel good natureof carbon offsets.
Now, carbon offsets has beensomething that we've sort of
lived with for a couple ofdecades now, but I still don't
(14:45):
feel like most Americans knowexactly what you're talking
about when you're talking aboutcarbon offsets.
If you had to define carbonoffsets, how would you do so?
Speaker 2 (14:55):
So I interviewed a critic of carbon offsets for a
piece I did in the WashingtonPost, I think, last year, which
really looked at the wholescammy nature of voluntary
carbon offsets that passengersmight experience.
The world of carbon offsets, ofcourse, is quite complex and
(15:17):
nuanced.
There are sometimes, you know,different regulations that speak
to how those schemes work, butI'm primarily talking about the
offsets that someone could buy,say when they're booking a
flight to offset a certainamount of carbon, and the critic
that I interviewed for thatstory described it as like
paying someone else to go to thegym for you, which I think is a
(15:38):
really great way ofunderstanding the lunacy of the
carbon offset market, becausethe reality is like.
The reality is like there's noway to simply offset the
exploding emissions that arecoming from aviation.
That doesn't mean that offsetsare always evil.
(15:59):
I just think they don't solvethe climate crisis.
If we're evaluating through thelens of do these solve the
climate crisis?
Do these mitigate the travelindustry's impacts on the
environment, then the answer isno.
Do some offset programs have amore meaningful impact on
(16:22):
forestry preservation, greenenergy projects, which are where
a lot of the money from offsetsgoes?
It's paid into, typically, someof these different kinds of
programs.
Some of them are known to bescans.
Some of them do provide moneyto different projects.
That might be worthwhile and Ithink that that can be great.
(16:42):
But again it's like if we'retalking about the baseline goal
of solving the climate crisis ormitigating the emissions
involved in a certain activity,then critics would have you look
very closely at the claimsbeing made on the basis of
offsets.
Speaker 3 (17:00):
It feels a lot to me like when the Pope would sell
indulgences for sins.
Speaker 2 (17:05):
It feels a lot to me like when the Pope would sell
indulgences for sins.
Speaker 1 (17:16):
Yeah, and there have been many academics, many
scientists who have made thatsame conclusion that it's yeah,
it's, like you know, paying offyour sins.
Jeff and I were talkingrecently let's stay stay on
topic here with withcertifications and approvals.
With certifications andapprovals, what's the report
card on hotel and travel companymarketing to LGBTQ plus
audiences?
Is it on the right path ormixed reviews?
I know Jeff and I have talked alot about this and that is
(17:41):
equally as evolving and asthorny these days.
Speaker 3 (17:46):
Part of the conversation Matt and I tend to
have when we're not recording,quite frankly, is at what point
are travelers just travelers andpeople just people?
And for businesses of any kind,meddling in identity politics
is dangerous territory.
Mind meddling in identitypolitics is dangerous territory.
(18:07):
And for travel companies,perhaps even more complicated,
because it's our roles to createa sense of welcome and comfort
for all right.
So, hotels on the West Coast,you want to include amenities
that Chinese travelers want.
Tea in addition to coffee is aneasy example.
Right At the same time, the joyof travel is experiencing new
things and especially new people, and experiencing and
(18:28):
celebrating differences.
So when travel companies targeta demographic like LGBTQ+, it
can feel a little disingenuine.
Speaker 1 (18:38):
It boils down to what's pandering and what's
legit.
Speaker 2 (18:42):
What's pinkwashing and what's not?
That's a term often used inLGBTQ plus activism circles to
describe a corporation or even acountry that wants to market
itself as queer inclusive, as adistraction, maybe, from
something else, or even as amarketing ploy to capitalize on
(19:08):
the perceived budget that queertravelers, queer trans travelers
may have an interest in goingto that place.
This is a really interestingconversation.
It's something I think a lotabout as a queer person, as
someone who travels, as someonewho writes and reports on queer
travel, as someone who travels,as someone who writes and
(19:30):
reports on queer travel, I thinkthe report card on travel is
really a mixed bag for a fewreasons.
Firstly, it did feel like therewere some positive changes
happening for a few years andnow it feels like things are
rolling back in a few key ways.
I would say like if you askqueer, queer and trans travelers
generally, it's exactly that.
It's like we just want toreceive good hospitality, we
(19:51):
just want to be welcomed, likeit's not a complicated thing,
like you know, if you're a kind,good person, it's not like
anyone is asking for anyparticular special treatment.
It's just that for a lot ofhistory, queer and trans
travelers have to think quite,you know deeply about our
personal safety, about howwelcomed we will feel at a
(20:13):
destination, and that can reallyruin a trip, and it's not just
holidays and vacations.
I think we also have toremember that for a lot of
people, travel is a necessity,something that they have to do,
not something necessarily thatthey choose to, whether it's
their job or you know, evenimmigration can lead to the need
(20:33):
for travel, and so there arehuman rights issues embedded in
the travel industry here, andyou know it can even be in small
things.
Like I mean, I have just in thelast decade been traveling with
a partner on the West.
Like I mean, I have just in thelast like decade been traveling
with a partner on the Westcoast and, uh, you know, checked
into a rural Oregon hotel forthe staff to passive,
(20:54):
aggressively give us a room withtwo beds when the reservation
was for a single bed and therewas clearly other rooms
available at that hotel.
And so those are the kinds ofthings that, you know, even
those small types of passive,aggressive things you can
experience when you're travelingcan really dampen the mood a
(21:18):
lot.
And so I'd say thecertifications that aim to train
staff to better, just, like youknow, not tolerate intolerance
and to really just treat, youknow, queer and trans travelers
with respect and dignity thatany other traveler would receive
.
Those are good things.
(21:39):
It was good to see more of thathappening.
I think that led to somepositive changes in the industry
.
But now, as a lot of this hasgotten a lot more politicized,
where queer and trans peoplehave become scapegoats for
far-right authoritarianpoliticians, that has trickled
into the way the travel industryis talking about inclusion and
(22:01):
you know where a few years agoit might have felt like things
were starting to move in theright direction.
Now it feels like there's abacksliding and it's not in the
hotel space but definitely thedestination marketing space.
What happened with VisitFlorida in the last couple of
months, you know?
Taking down any content whichwelcomes queer travelers, lgbtq
plus travelers to Florida, andthat's pretty startling because
(22:26):
Visit Florida had a prettypositive reputation, I think,
among a lot of LGBTQ plustravelers as well as content
creators, travel journalists.
So you just see this kind ofrollback, regressive attitude.
I don't know if it's so muchjust like identity politics or
the culture wars the so-calledculture wars that have made
queer and trans people thescapegoats, or if it's like a
(22:49):
lingering.
You know homophobia,transphobia, it's probably all
of the above but it has createdan environment where now I think
you know again, we are, as acommunity, thinking a lot about
our safety and about, like,where we're going to be welcome,
because it's not fun to take aholiday or to go on a business
trip and then just feel likeyou're constantly on where you
know you're not really welcomed,and so I think that that would
(23:12):
be my answer to that question.
It's a mixed bag.
It does feel like there's someregression, but thankfully we do
have many allies, and I wouldjust say fly more queer flags
please.
If you're a travel business,put the.
Speaker 1 (23:28):
Let's talk a little bit about another article you
did recently on the renovationof part of the Portland Airport,
the PDX revamp.
It was very refreshing to seethat airport go all in on making
the space a real part of thecity, which I think has been a
(23:49):
challenge for airports right, atleast it has been kind of in
our lifetimes.
Modern terminal constructionhas sort of moved on from the
quaint marine terminal you knowkind of small terminals that
you'd see in cities to this kindof big box, anodyne, very
(24:10):
liminal space that took root inthe 80s and 90s and you know
terminals in the 2000s, whilenice have a decidedly
corporatized shake-shack kind offeel and all this has.
There are a lot of reasons forall of this.
You know planes got bigger,security needs got bigger.
The space had to be treateddifferently than, I think, the
(24:34):
more boutique spaces of, say,the 30s, 40s, 50s.
Pdx, though, in its newincarnation, subverts that.
What did you think when youfirst got the tour of the new
space?
Speaker 2 (24:47):
Yeah, let me start with a full disclosure, as I did
in the Condé Nast Traveler Newsfeature about the PDX opening,
which is that I'm a big fan ofPDX and that's a weird thing to
say about airports.
Certainly, as you said,airports have become quite
sterile, quite shoppingmall-esque, and are not places
that people really want to spendtime.
(25:09):
I, unfortunately, have quite alot of anxiety when I travel,
even though I am a travel writerand travel quite frequently.
I show up to airports veryearly so I spend a lot of time
in airports when I am travelingand PDX is one of those airports
that I actually really enjoygoing to and that's led me over
(25:29):
the years to do some work withthe airport as well.
I wrote a zine about the openingof the airport previously,
wrote a comic, wrote acrowdsourced poem that the
executive director of theairport read at a demolition
party when Concourse A was torndown.
So I have a lot of history withPDX and I'll say I really was
(25:50):
kind of shocked when I firsttook the tour before the airport
opened.
It opened August and I wasthere in February, got a tour of
the in-progress constructionsite and you know I'd seen all
the renderings.
It's a really cool projectbecause it aims to use locally
sourced timber, which is a moresustainable construction
(26:12):
material than some of thealternatives, and it has the
first mass timber roof of amajor American airport, which is
pretty cool.
And so the photos, therenderings, looked cool.
The photos from the constructionsite look cool, but when you're
actually in this space it is areally stunning design.
(26:33):
It really embodies the characterand the spirit of the Pacific
Northwest.
I mean, there's real treesliving in the airport, which is
really cool.
On top of that, the airport hasa unique administration which
manages a lot of its own leasing.
A lot of airports outsourceleasing, and so that means you
(26:53):
get the shopping mall effect,whereas in the new main terminal
, 100% of those brands arePacific Northwest born brands,
which is a really cool thing tosay about an airport, so as, as
more of those shops open overthe next year, you know, you'll
be seeing more kind of favorite,beloved brands opening at PDX,
(27:14):
and so it really does feel likea microcosm of the region.
It's like when you're in thespace that you are being
welcomed to the PacificNorthwest or reminded why you
don't want to leave, and that'scool when you compare that to
other airport projects.
I mean, there are a few iconicinternational ones of course,
but PDX really does stand outnationally and that's why I am
(27:36):
really excited to yeah, to seeit open.
Speaker 3 (27:39):
It does.
I was there recently and twothings really stood out to me.
I also tend to arrive atairports very early and when we
were arriving I said there's agreat place we can go get a beer
.
We've never heard of.
I was excited to get to theairport for that part of the
experience.
The other thing was it's theonly airport outside of
(28:02):
Nashville that has a livemusician in the terminal right
Sunday morning.
The guy's out there playingguitar.
It was awesome.
Speaker 2 (28:12):
I'm all in on the future of Portland and a micro
cinema, a nonprofit micro cinema, and a micro cinema, a
nonprofit micro cinema.
Hollywood theater huge fan, oneof the best theaters in the
world If you're a film buff hasan ongoing festival of shorts
spinning at the airport.
There are 96 taps of Oregonbeers on at Loyal Legion, the
(28:36):
mezzanine bar.
There's just a lot of coolthings about PDX.
It's the localist airport I'vebeen to.
That's a term that they'reusing to describe it and I feel
like that's very accurate.
Speaker 3 (28:47):
Totally agree.
A few places got more publiclybeat up during the pandemic than
Portland.
Right, it was the whipping postfor public policy gone wrong,
for drug policy, policing, right, some for good reason.
But it was also reallypolitically convenient for some
voices not to let that go.
All said, I've spent a goodamount of time there in Portland
(29:08):
since 21, and I'm in love withthe city and its surroundings.
It has just a wonderfullyrebellious spirit and it keeps
getting its act together andcleaning itself up and the
downtown's better.
Everything is going the rightdirection.
I'm all in on Portland.
My question to you is when willtravel coverage shift to the
version of Portland that I see?
Speaker 2 (29:29):
That's a question I keep asking myself.
As we mentioned earlier, I wasthe travel writer for the
Washington Post for a number ofyears.
I think some of those articlesare still online.
They're very outdated, sothey're not going to really help
you that much if you'retraveling there today.
But I've always seen a side ofPortland that I don't think the
(29:52):
media really captures.
I think it's often thePortlandia cliche or it's the
Trumpian doomsday.
You know dystopia, and the factis it's like you know, I live
through Portland, through all ofthe downturn.
It was the media darling in theearly 2010s and then it became
(30:13):
the punching bag for Americanurban decline, or the doom loop,
as people would say, and justthat narrative never felt true
if you're actually there.
So I don't have an answer foryou.
I would love to write.
If you're a travel editorlistening to this and you want
some accurate, fun coverage ofPortland, I would be happy to do
(30:34):
more of that.
It's again.
I live in London now, but Ifrequently go back to Portland.
It's my second home and I I'min love with the city as well.
So I don't know.
It's a very weird city.
I mean, there's some things Idon't like about it.
There's some weird stuff goingon there, but it's weird in both
the.
You know the Wallsian sense oflike it can be kind of weird,
(30:57):
and it's also weird in the keepPortland.
Weird like fun sense.
It has range and so, yeah,let's change the narrative on
that.
Don't have an answer for you.
Love Portland, let's keep itweird in the right way.
Speaker 1 (31:09):
It's time for the mystery question.
This is an easy one and it's atwo-parter JD.
If you were visiting Portlandand you were visiting London,
it's sort of like a live aidthing.
Let's say you're doing them oneday after each other.
What are the two bars youshould absolutely visit in
(31:30):
either city?
Speaker 2 (31:36):
absolutely visit in either city.
You should have a look at myGoogle Maps for bars because
I've got so many flaggedeverywhere and this is a hard
question to answer, but I willgive you two.
So for London I live in EastLondon and whenever anyone
visits I absolutely makereservations.
At a bar with shapes for a name, which I think is one of the
best bars in the world, it's socool, it's so interesting, it's
so weird, it's very pretentious,but like also people that are
(31:59):
really nice and it's open till 4am.
So you get the cool cocktailbar vibes open till 4 am.
It has kind of a, you know,primary color theme and if
you're into sort of like youknow I don't know like pre-mixed
cocktails that are actuallyreally great to have a little
primary color paint splotches onthe Negroni bottle, go check it
(32:21):
out.
Must recommend.
And then in Portland that's veryhard because most of my life in
Portland was spent in dive bars, so I have many dive bars, but
I am a huge fan of Bar Diane inNorthwest Portland, which is a
little wine bar just right off21st Ave my old haunts and they
(32:45):
just really great.
You know, pretty affordablewine, pours, DJs on the weekends
, really chill vibes must checkout.
So those would be my answers,but every time someone asks me
that I find a recommendationclose.
So now I'm just going to makesure that Bar Diane is in fact
open and it looks like it isGreat.
Speaker 1 (33:09):
Excellent.
Thank you for doing this and wereally appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (33:12):
We hope to have you back.
Thank you so much for having meand for the really interesting
questions.
Hi everybody, Welcome to no Show.
I'm Matt Brown, joined asalways by Jeff Borman.
Our guest today.
Jd Shadel writes the Future ofTravel column for Condé Nast
Traveler and is editor-at-largeat Good On you, the leading
platform rating brands oncritical social and
environmental issues.
Jd's written for the WashingtonPost, for them, for the BBC.
(00:31):
They have a master's degreewith distinction in
international relations from theUniversity of Exeter and is a
former human rights commissionerfor the city of Portland.
Jd's work has been featured asan example in the
Merriam-Webster Dictionary.
You know you've made it whenyou've done that.
They're a fantastic moderatorand MC, a fashion icon, an
(00:54):
inspired social critic, currentLondon resident, and JD is,
hands down, the best personnamed JD you will ever meet from
Appalachia.
Jd, welcome to no Show.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
Wow, I'm extremely honored by that introduction.
As I like to sometimes say, Iam the queen of lifestyle, so
I'm being sarcastic I feel likethat went way above and beyond.
Thank you so much.
I'm so excited to chat with youboth and I've been listening to
your past archive of podcastsand I have to say you are
(01:28):
excellent hosts and I'm excitedto see what questions we get
into.
I said at the start, when youfirst invited me on the show,
that you could ask me anything,so let's see where we go.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
One of the things I find most challenging for travel
writers is balancing thenarrative of being objective and
also subjective.
Right, gonzo journalism, hunterS Thompson, anthony Bourdain,
all the way over, to juststraight up travel guides, rick
Steves style.
Right, they've all got theirplace.
The middle, however, gets kindof tough, really tough.
(01:58):
What's an op-ed and what's anobjective?
Look at a place is somethingthat I think seasoned travelers
really think about when theyread good writers.
How do you navigate throughthat?
Speaker 2 (02:10):
It's a really interesting question because,
firstly, ethics in traveljournalism, I think, are quite
murky.
I don't think a lot of peoplehave a lot of fluency in terms
of how travel journalism isproduced.
There's, you know, a wholenetwork of PR that's happening
behind the scenes.
Who gets featured often relatesto the budget that they have to
(02:31):
, you know, get the word outabout how great they are.
And travel journalism itself isa hard to monetize profession,
to be honest, and so a lot ofpeople that are committed to
that quite full time are alsodoing a blend of different
things.
And in that context I think itcan be quite easy to, you know,
(02:52):
just go on the press trips, justwrite about what you're paid to
see and experience, and I'vealways felt a little icky about
that kind of approach.
That's not any slight to anyonethat does that.
I think there's actually areally good argument for why
travel writers unfortunatelyneed to take press trips, you
(03:14):
know, as just a way of likebudget for the experience and
for the coverage which mediaoutlets are rarely providing.
So first just say there's a lotof icky feeling things
happening in travel journalism.
That said, there've been somereally positive things that have
emerged in years.
One is the focus on avoidingparachute journalism, which has
(03:39):
been sort of the norm.
I think that's led to a lot ofexotifying people in places when
you know predominantly whitemen are traveling around the
world and writing about theirexperiences, their impression of
a place.
I think there's been a move todiversify the voices telling
these stories, a focus more onlocal storytelling.
(03:59):
One of the projects that I ammost proud of in my career was I
was the Portland Oregon travelwriter for the Washington Post
for a number of years while Iwas based in Portland and I got
to work with the digital team onthat.
That project, which was so coolbecause really they uh work.
They did like 50 city guides tocities all over the world and
(04:19):
there was no parachutejournalism.
It was working with locals onthe ground, have locals tell the
story.
Of course that creates its ownsort of dynamic of you know the
locals are gonna hopefully lovewhere they're at.
But yeah, I think it's.
It's really an interestingdynamic where travel journalism
is itself a challenging ethicalprofession and I think that
(04:40):
creates, you know, some blurredlines in terms of, like you said
, like what is opinion, what issubjective, who's paying for
that experience?
And I think that's reallyinteresting.
I just wish a little bit moreliteracy in audiences could help
people read a bit morecritically as well.
Speaker 3 (05:00):
Yeah, you know, my background is almost all on the
hotel side, and when travelagencies come on a paid expense
trip to a group of hotels tolearn about the hotel and then
guide their travelers, it's verytransparent, right.
I mean, they are there, theyare paid to be there, they are
there to influence.
You know, the originalinfluencers in travel are travel
agents, right, but it's verytransparent that that is the
(05:22):
role and that's why they're paidon these all in all included
trips.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
You can't do it unless you're comped
economically.
Not really A newspaper, even amidsize or large newspaper,
can't say OK, go out and do apiece on the Fontainebleau in
Las Vegas and we're going to payfor all your travel, we're
going to pay for the room, we'regoing to pay for all your meals
.
It kind of reminds me of likecelebrity access, like, okay,
we're going to give you thiscomp stuff Only if we know that
you're going to give us a review.
(05:48):
That's pretty good, you'renever going to travel all the
way out there and then trash theplace.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
I think that's a really valid point, which is
just like the, the budget fortravel journalism doesn't really
exist on the media side anymore.
There are a few outlets that doprovide that budget, but
they're far and few between, anda lot of the content that you
see is necessarily funded by thesubject of the reporting, which
you know is is great, forexposure doesn't lend itself to
(06:19):
much critical assessment of adestination's merits, and I
think that's where I used towork in guidebook writing as
well, and I was a travel editorand that was one thing I
observed, which is it's like youknow, you'd see, destinations
that had the budget to host alot of travel writers would get
a lot more of the coverage and alot more of the glowing
(06:40):
coverage, and I think that'swhere it's just a bit
challenging.
The whole economics of traveljournalism are kind of fucked up
.
Speaker 3 (06:48):
How does a true professional as you are and
Conde Nast sets the goldstandard how do you compete then
, today, with influencers whoare just putting out 200
characters at a time andbasically entering right into
your space, but, in my opinion,far more on the take?
How do you compete with that?
Speaker 2 (07:10):
I don't necessarily view influencers as a competitor
of travel journalism.
I think they serve slightlydifferent purposes so I wouldn't
necessarily say Condé NastTraveler, for example, which is
one publication I contribute to,is in competition with
influencers.
(07:31):
I'd say we are a part of a veryfascinating and broadening
ecosystem of inspiration andinformation about travel, about
the world, and there's somereally positive, cool stuff
happening on social where Ithink social has had a lot of
negative impacts on travel,certainly in discourses around
(07:53):
destinations and over tourism.
The flip side is that it's also, you know, opened up an
audience for folks who might notnormally get featured in the
traditional gatekeeping barriersof travel journalism, and so
I'd say it's a mixed bag, butthey're not really in
competition.
They're often serving verydifferent audiences, very
different needs and hostingdifferent and interesting kinds
(08:17):
of conversations.
So there is, of course, likethe icky influencer, you know,
pay to play kind of thing, whichnobody really loves.
But I think what I'm reallytalking about is most
influencers would prefer to callthemselves content creators and
I think within the world ofcontent creation that there's a
really a lot of interestingstuff happening, a lot of really
(08:39):
interesting voices, a lot oftalented people that are, you
know, showing us the world indifferent ways than travel
journalism might traditionallydo.
Speaker 1 (08:48):
Let's dig into some of your recent articles, which
are fascinating.
We all take, I think, the userexperience of airports, hotels
and public spaces for grantedand we skip over how the UX for
those experiences is tested fora very narrow slice of the
(09:09):
sensory, gender, age, identity,high of the population, and it's
given rise to a term calledsensory inclusive city.
Philadelphia just announceditself as one.
Can you talk a little bit about?
You just wrote an article onthis.
Can you talk a little bit aboutwhat a sensory inclusive city
is and what it aims to be?
Speaker 2 (09:32):
So sensory inclusive city is a really interesting
term because in reality it'skind of a myth.
It aims to solve some very realchallenges.
Sensory processing challengesare experienced by a wide swath
of the traveling public.
A lot of people have invisibledisabilities, a lot of people
(09:59):
have different sensory needsthat mean just the experience of
travel can be quite stressfuland, as you pointed out, we
don't really think about thedesign of public spaces like
airports or hospitalitydestinations like resorts,
museums, hotels, through a veryinclusive lens.
So I think the last decade orso we've seen a rise of
certifications that often focuson training but also the
(10:24):
facilities.
There's a growing awareness ofdesign, sensory inclusive design
as well, and just inclusivedesign across the board.
Some of that is regulated bydifferent you know the ADA in
America, for example, but a lotof other sensory needs are not
(10:49):
really thought of or centered inconversation.
So it's a really importanttopic.
But I say it's a myth becausethe reality is you can't create
a sensory inclusive city and youcan't create.
You know, training doesn'tnecessarily address a lot of
sensory needs and, as some ofthe people I spoke to in the
article acknowledged, it's avery good goal.
It might be more appropriate touse terminology like a
(11:09):
sensory-informed city, focusingon training, focusing on
providing resources to folks whotravel with different needs and
abilities, and that's reallywhat we get into.
That was a piece I published inthe Future of Travel column and
that's exactly the kinds of bigquestions we like to ask.
Look at something likePhiladelphia's certification.
(11:30):
What that means, what thatactually you know, is that a
certification other citiesshould be looking to, and it's a
really positive development.
It's just it's a bit confusingsometimes for travelers,
including those with sensoryprocessing needs, to think about
, like you know, what thatactually has an effect on their
travel?
Speaker 1 (11:49):
Are there just a bunch of different entities out
there saying, oh yeah, we'llcertify you this way and we'll
certify you that way, and nowyou can have a thing up on the
front door of your place thatsays that you are a good person.
Speaker 2 (12:01):
Certainly, the quality of certifying bodies
varies greatly.
The focus of the article Ireported was an organization, a
nonprofit organization calledCulture City, who I actually
have visited many destinationsthat have received their sensory
(12:21):
inclusive certification andhave to say that I think they're
doing really amazing work forpeople with sensory needs.
As someone who can fit underthat umbrella, that very broad
umbrella that they apply, I'veused some of the amenities that
they've they've offeredtravelers at different
destinations and it can saythey're doing really good work.
They have a really rigoroustraining scheme, and I think
(12:46):
where their work really shinesis stadiums, event venues really
like those places where, forexample, if you're at a game or
a concert and you areexperiencing overstimulation
once upon a time, you might haveto leave the stadium and you
(13:08):
might not get let back in due toticketing rules, and so the way
Culture City has worked tocreate, you know, multi-sensory
rooms in stadiums and a lot ofNFL stadiums, I think is a
really empowering, powerfulstory.
Stadiums, I think is a reallyempowering, powerful story.
(13:29):
Questions, though, start toarise.
With a lot of othercertification schemes, even
Culture City, I think you knowthere's not a lot of information
on their website about whatthat certification means what it
accomplishes, its efficacy, andthat can make it hard for
travelers to necessarilyunderstand and navigate all of
the different certificationsthat are targeting often very
specific groups of travelers.
(13:51):
Some try to take more of abroader umbrella approach and
sensory needs are just one ofmany areas of the of the
traveling world that hascertifications.
So it's a really interestingconversation world that has
certifications.
So it's a really interestingconversation and I'd say it's a
lot of good intentions and theefficacy just really depends on
what goes into thosecertifications.
And I have to say the piece youknow has some criticism of the
(14:14):
sensory inclusive cityterminology.
But overall I was veryimpressed with my experiences
with culture city and thinkthey're good people.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
Speaking of certifications, let's pivot to
greenwashing, one of ourfavorite subjects on the show,
and we definitely want to hearyour thoughts on sustainable
travel and the feel good natureof carbon offsets.
Now, carbon offsets has beensomething that we've sort of
lived with for a couple ofdecades now, but I still don't
(14:45):
feel like most Americans knowexactly what you're talking
about when you're talking aboutcarbon offsets.
If you had to define carbonoffsets, how would you do so?
Speaker 2 (14:55):
So I interviewed a critic of carbon offsets for a
piece I did in the WashingtonPost, I think, last year, which
really looked at the wholescammy nature of voluntary
carbon offsets that passengersmight experience.
The world of carbon offsets, ofcourse, is quite complex and
(15:17):
nuanced.
There are sometimes, you know,different regulations that speak
to how those schemes work, butI'm primarily talking about the
offsets that someone could buy,say when they're booking a
flight to offset a certainamount of carbon, and the critic
that I interviewed for thatstory described it as like
paying someone else to go to thegym for you, which I think is a
(15:38):
really great way ofunderstanding the lunacy of the
carbon offset market, becausethe reality is like.
The reality is like there's noway to simply offset the
exploding emissions that arecoming from aviation.
That doesn't mean that offsetsare always evil.
(15:59):
I just think they don't solvethe climate crisis.
If we're evaluating through thelens of do these solve the
climate crisis?
Do these mitigate the travelindustry's impacts on the
environment, then the answer isno.
Do some offset programs have amore meaningful impact on
(16:22):
forestry preservation, greenenergy projects, which are where
a lot of the money from offsetsgoes?
It's paid into, typically, someof these different kinds of
programs.
Some of them are known to bescans.
Some of them do provide moneyto different projects.
That might be worthwhile and Ithink that that can be great.
(16:42):
But again it's like if we'retalking about the baseline goal
of solving the climate crisis ormitigating the emissions
involved in a certain activity,then critics would have you look
very closely at the claimsbeing made on the basis of
offsets.
Speaker 3 (17:00):
It feels a lot to me like when the Pope would sell
indulgences for sins.
Speaker 2 (17:05):
It feels a lot to me like when the Pope would sell
indulgences for sins.
Speaker 1 (17:16):
Yeah, and there have been many academics, many
scientists who have made thatsame conclusion that it's yeah,
it's, like you know, paying offyour sins.
Jeff and I were talkingrecently let's stay stay on
topic here with withcertifications and approvals.
With certifications andapprovals, what's the report
card on hotel and travel companymarketing to LGBTQ plus
audiences?
Is it on the right path ormixed reviews?
I know Jeff and I have talked alot about this and that is
(17:41):
equally as evolving and asthorny these days.
Speaker 3 (17:46):
Part of the conversation Matt and I tend to
have when we're not recording,quite frankly, is at what point
are travelers just travelers andpeople just people?
And for businesses of any kind,meddling in identity politics
is dangerous territory.
Mind meddling in identitypolitics is dangerous territory.
(18:07):
And for travel companies,perhaps even more complicated,
because it's our roles to createa sense of welcome and comfort
for all right.
So, hotels on the West Coast,you want to include amenities
that Chinese travelers want.
Tea in addition to coffee is aneasy example.
Right At the same time, the joyof travel is experiencing new
things and especially new people, and experiencing and
(18:28):
celebrating differences.
So when travel companies targeta demographic like LGBTQ+, it
can feel a little disingenuine.
Speaker 1 (18:38):
It boils down to what's pandering and what's
legit.
Speaker 2 (18:42):
What's pinkwashing and what's not?
That's a term often used inLGBTQ plus activism circles to
describe a corporation or even acountry that wants to market
itself as queer inclusive, as adistraction, maybe, from
something else, or even as amarketing ploy to capitalize on
(19:08):
the perceived budget that queertravelers, queer trans travelers
may have an interest in goingto that place.
This is a really interestingconversation.
It's something I think a lotabout as a queer person, as
someone who travels, as someonewho writes and reports on queer
travel, as someone who travels,as someone who writes and
(19:30):
reports on queer travel, I thinkthe report card on travel is
really a mixed bag for a fewreasons.
Firstly, it did feel like therewere some positive changes
happening for a few years andnow it feels like things are
rolling back in a few key ways.
I would say like if you askqueer, queer and trans travelers
generally, it's exactly that.
It's like we just want toreceive good hospitality, we
(19:51):
just want to be welcomed, likeit's not a complicated thing,
like you know, if you're a kind,good person, it's not like
anyone is asking for anyparticular special treatment.
It's just that for a lot ofhistory, queer and trans
travelers have to think quite,you know deeply about our
personal safety, about howwelcomed we will feel at a
(20:13):
destination, and that can reallyruin a trip, and it's not just
holidays and vacations.
I think we also have toremember that for a lot of
people, travel is a necessity,something that they have to do,
not something necessarily thatthey choose to, whether it's
their job or you know, evenimmigration can lead to the need
(20:33):
for travel, and so there arehuman rights issues embedded in
the travel industry here, andyou know it can even be in small
things.
Like I mean, I have just in thelast decade been traveling with
a partner on the West.
Like I mean, I have just in thelast like decade been traveling
with a partner on the Westcoast and, uh, you know, checked
into a rural Oregon hotel forthe staff to passive,
(20:54):
aggressively give us a room withtwo beds when the reservation
was for a single bed and therewas clearly other rooms
available at that hotel.
And so those are the kinds ofthings that, you know, even
those small types of passive,aggressive things you can
experience when you're travelingcan really dampen the mood a
(21:18):
lot.
And so I'd say thecertifications that aim to train
staff to better, just, like youknow, not tolerate intolerance
and to really just treat, youknow, queer and trans travelers
with respect and dignity thatany other traveler would receive
.
Those are good things.
(21:39):
It was good to see more of thathappening.
I think that led to somepositive changes in the industry
.
But now, as a lot of this hasgotten a lot more politicized,
where queer and trans peoplehave become scapegoats for
far-right authoritarianpoliticians, that has trickled
into the way the travel industryis talking about inclusion and
(22:01):
you know where a few years agoit might have felt like things
were starting to move in theright direction.
Now it feels like there's abacksliding and it's not in the
hotel space but definitely thedestination marketing space.
What happened with VisitFlorida in the last couple of
months, you know?
Taking down any content whichwelcomes queer travelers, lgbtq
plus travelers to Florida, andthat's pretty startling because
(22:26):
Visit Florida had a prettypositive reputation, I think,
among a lot of LGBTQ plustravelers as well as content
creators, travel journalists.
So you just see this kind ofrollback, regressive attitude.
I don't know if it's so muchjust like identity politics or
the culture wars the so-calledculture wars that have made
queer and trans people thescapegoats, or if it's like a
(22:49):
lingering.
You know homophobia,transphobia, it's probably all
of the above but it has createdan environment where now I think
you know again, we are, as acommunity, thinking a lot about
our safety and about, like,where we're going to be welcome,
because it's not fun to take aholiday or to go on a business
trip and then just feel likeyou're constantly on where you
know you're not really welcomed,and so I think that that would
(23:12):
be my answer to that question.
It's a mixed bag.
It does feel like there's someregression, but thankfully we do
have many allies, and I wouldjust say fly more queer flags
please.
If you're a travel business,put the.
Speaker 1 (23:28):
Let's talk a little bit about another article you
did recently on the renovationof part of the Portland Airport,
the PDX revamp.
It was very refreshing to seethat airport go all in on making
the space a real part of thecity, which I think has been a
(23:49):
challenge for airports right, atleast it has been kind of in
our lifetimes.
Modern terminal constructionhas sort of moved on from the
quaint marine terminal you knowkind of small terminals that
you'd see in cities to this kindof big box, anodyne, very
(24:10):
liminal space that took root inthe 80s and 90s and you know
terminals in the 2000s, whilenice have a decidedly
corporatized shake-shack kind offeel and all this has.
There are a lot of reasons forall of this.
You know planes got bigger,security needs got bigger.
The space had to be treateddifferently than, I think, the
(24:34):
more boutique spaces of, say,the 30s, 40s, 50s.
Pdx, though, in its newincarnation, subverts that.
What did you think when youfirst got the tour of the new
space?
Speaker 2 (24:47):
Yeah, let me start with a full disclosure, as I did
in the Condé Nast Traveler Newsfeature about the PDX opening,
which is that I'm a big fan ofPDX and that's a weird thing to
say about airports.
Certainly, as you said,airports have become quite
sterile, quite shoppingmall-esque, and are not places
that people really want to spendtime.
(25:09):
I, unfortunately, have quite alot of anxiety when I travel,
even though I am a travel writerand travel quite frequently.
I show up to airports veryearly so I spend a lot of time
in airports when I am travelingand PDX is one of those airports
that I actually really enjoygoing to and that's led me over
(25:29):
the years to do some work withthe airport as well.
I wrote a zine about the openingof the airport previously,
wrote a comic, wrote acrowdsourced poem that the
executive director of theairport read at a demolition
party when Concourse A was torndown.
So I have a lot of history withPDX and I'll say I really was
(25:50):
kind of shocked when I firsttook the tour before the airport
opened.
It opened August and I wasthere in February, got a tour of
the in-progress constructionsite and you know I'd seen all
the renderings.
It's a really cool projectbecause it aims to use locally
sourced timber, which is a moresustainable construction
(26:12):
material than some of thealternatives, and it has the
first mass timber roof of amajor American airport, which is
pretty cool.
And so the photos, therenderings, looked cool.
The photos from the constructionsite look cool, but when you're
actually in this space it is areally stunning design.
(26:33):
It really embodies the characterand the spirit of the Pacific
Northwest.
I mean, there's real treesliving in the airport, which is
really cool.
On top of that, the airport hasa unique administration which
manages a lot of its own leasing.
A lot of airports outsourceleasing, and so that means you
(26:53):
get the shopping mall effect,whereas in the new main terminal
, 100% of those brands arePacific Northwest born brands,
which is a really cool thing tosay about an airport, so as, as
more of those shops open overthe next year, you know, you'll
be seeing more kind of favorite,beloved brands opening at PDX,
(27:14):
and so it really does feel likea microcosm of the region.
It's like when you're in thespace that you are being
welcomed to the PacificNorthwest or reminded why you
don't want to leave, and that'scool when you compare that to
other airport projects.
I mean, there are a few iconicinternational ones of course,
but PDX really does stand outnationally and that's why I am
(27:36):
really excited to yeah, to seeit open.
Speaker 3 (27:39):
It does.
I was there recently and twothings really stood out to me.
I also tend to arrive atairports very early and when we
were arriving I said there's agreat place we can go get a beer
.
We've never heard of.
I was excited to get to theairport for that part of the
experience.
The other thing was it's theonly airport outside of
(28:02):
Nashville that has a livemusician in the terminal right
Sunday morning.
The guy's out there playingguitar.
It was awesome.
Speaker 2 (28:12):
I'm all in on the future of Portland and a micro
cinema, a nonprofit micro cinema, and a micro cinema, a
nonprofit micro cinema.
Hollywood theater huge fan, oneof the best theaters in the
world If you're a film buff hasan ongoing festival of shorts
spinning at the airport.
There are 96 taps of Oregonbeers on at Loyal Legion, the
(28:36):
mezzanine bar.
There's just a lot of coolthings about PDX.
It's the localist airport I'vebeen to.
That's a term that they'reusing to describe it and I feel
like that's very accurate.
Speaker 3 (28:47):
Totally agree.
A few places got more publiclybeat up during the pandemic than
Portland.
Right, it was the whipping postfor public policy gone wrong,
for drug policy, policing, right, some for good reason.
But it was also reallypolitically convenient for some
voices not to let that go.
All said, I've spent a goodamount of time there in Portland
(29:08):
since 21, and I'm in love withthe city and its surroundings.
It has just a wonderfullyrebellious spirit and it keeps
getting its act together andcleaning itself up and the
downtown's better.
Everything is going the rightdirection.
I'm all in on Portland.
My question to you is when willtravel coverage shift to the
version of Portland that I see?
Speaker 2 (29:29):
That's a question I keep asking myself.
As we mentioned earlier, I wasthe travel writer for the
Washington Post for a number ofyears.
I think some of those articlesare still online.
They're very outdated, sothey're not going to really help
you that much if you'retraveling there today.
But I've always seen a side ofPortland that I don't think the
(29:52):
media really captures.
I think it's often thePortlandia cliche or it's the
Trumpian doomsday.
You know dystopia, and the factis it's like you know, I live
through Portland, through all ofthe downturn.
It was the media darling in theearly 2010s and then it became
(30:13):
the punching bag for Americanurban decline, or the doom loop,
as people would say, and justthat narrative never felt true
if you're actually there.
So I don't have an answer foryou.
I would love to write.
If you're a travel editorlistening to this and you want
some accurate, fun coverage ofPortland, I would be happy to do
(30:34):
more of that.
It's again.
I live in London now, but Ifrequently go back to Portland.
It's my second home and I I'min love with the city as well.
So I don't know.
It's a very weird city.
I mean, there's some things Idon't like about it.
There's some weird stuff goingon there, but it's weird in both
the.
You know the Wallsian sense oflike it can be kind of weird,
(30:57):
and it's also weird in the keepPortland.
Weird like fun sense.
It has range and so, yeah,let's change the narrative on
that.
Don't have an answer for you.
Love Portland, let's keep itweird in the right way.
Speaker 1 (31:09):
It's time for the mystery question.
This is an easy one and it's atwo-parter JD.
If you were visiting Portlandand you were visiting London,
it's sort of like a live aidthing.
Let's say you're doing them oneday after each other.
What are the two bars youshould absolutely visit in
(31:30):
either city?
Speaker 2 (31:36):
absolutely visit in either city.
You should have a look at myGoogle Maps for bars because
I've got so many flaggedeverywhere and this is a hard
question to answer, but I willgive you two.
So for London I live in EastLondon and whenever anyone
visits I absolutely makereservations.
At a bar with shapes for a name, which I think is one of the
best bars in the world, it's socool, it's so interesting, it's
so weird, it's very pretentious,but like also people that are
(31:59):
really nice and it's open till 4am.
So you get the cool cocktailbar vibes open till 4 am.
It has kind of a, you know,primary color theme and if
you're into sort of like youknow I don't know like pre-mixed
cocktails that are actuallyreally great to have a little
primary color paint splotches onthe Negroni bottle, go check it
(32:21):
out.
Must recommend.
And then in Portland that's veryhard because most of my life in
Portland was spent in dive bars, so I have many dive bars, but
I am a huge fan of Bar Diane inNorthwest Portland, which is a
little wine bar just right off21st Ave my old haunts and they
(32:45):
just really great.
You know, pretty affordablewine, pours, DJs on the weekends
, really chill vibes must checkout.
So those would be my answers,but every time someone asks me
that I find a recommendationclose.
So now I'm just going to makesure that Bar Diane is in fact
open and it looks like it isGreat.
Speaker 1 (33:09):
Excellent.
Thank you for doing this and wereally appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (33:12):
We hope to have you back.
Thank you so much for having meand for the really interesting
questions.
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