November 14, 2025 • 30 mins
In this episode of the Nonprofit Hub Radio Podcast, host Meghan Speer sits down with Matthew Courtney, principal consultant at Courtney Consulting, to explore how nonprofits can use program evaluation to strengthen funding applications, prove impact, and improve programs. Drawing from his own experience as a former nonprofit founder, Matthew shares hard-earned lessons about the importance of collecting and analyzing data—beyond just counting participants—to tell a compelling story of real change. He offers practical tips for starting from scratch, making data collection automatic, and creating a culture of continuous improvement that funders trust. Whether you’re a small or startup nonprofit or a seasoned leader rethinking your evaluation strategy, this conversation will help you see data not as a burden, but as a powerful tool for sustainability and growth.
Get free nonprofit professional development resources, connections to cause work peers, and more at https://nonprofithub.org
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SPEAKER_01 (00:00):
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SPEAKER_02 (00:18):
Welcome back to the Nonprofit Hub Radio Podcast.
I'm your host, Megan Speer,joined today by Matthew
Courtney, who's the principalconsultant at Courtney
Consulting, also a Nonprofit Hubcoaching member.
So we're excited to have himhere today.
Matthew, welcome in.
SPEAKER_00 (00:33):
Hey Megan, thanks for having me today.
SPEAKER_02 (00:34):
Yeah, my pleasure.
So we're gonna dig into a topic.
I feel like I've been on a runof these lately, of like things
we've I've never talked about onthe podcast.
So I'm excited to dig into thatidea, especially around what for
some of our program folks,around uh some of those
evaluations.
So before we do that, uh take amoment and introduce yourself,
tell us who you are and and kindof about the journey, the little
(00:57):
bit that got you to thisconversation today.
SPEAKER_00 (01:00):
Yeah, well, um, it's great to be here with you today.
I'm Matthew Courtney, and um mywork specializes in nonprofit
strategic planning and programevaluation.
I started actually started mycareer out as a music teacher,
and um, that sort of publicservice piece I think has sort
of always been in there.
And when I was 25, my schoolclosed.
(01:23):
And instead of trying to findanother music teaching job, I
decided to jump into the deepend and become a nonprofit
founder.
Um, I started a nonprofit calledthe Bluegrass Center for Teacher
Quality, and we were focused onteacher professional development
and thinking about how we canempower teachers to empower each
other.
Um at 25?
At 25, wow, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (01:45):
Okay, good for you.
SPEAKER_00 (01:47):
The best advice.
SPEAKER_02 (01:48):
I'm just thinking about myself at 25.
There's no way that I would havebeen ready for such a thing.
SPEAKER_00 (01:53):
You know, it was truly a wild adventure.
Um the best schooling um that Icould ever have asked for.
And I really think that itlaunched me years ahead of where
I would have been had I kind ofgone a traditional, you know,
climb the ladder route.
Cause I was literally right inthe deep end, having to learn to
do all of the things, as I'msure many of your listeners also
(02:16):
find themselves to be at anyage, because uh the deep end is
the deep end, it always is.
Yeah, so I did that for fouryears until unfortunately we
lost all of our funding kind ofall at once, and we had to close
our doors.
Um, that was really painful, butalso very formative because I I
learned that I had made somemistakes as the leader around
(02:41):
strategic planning and programevaluation, and I didn't have
what I needed to show fundersthat my work could be sustained
and should be sustained.
And so when uh you know, youcan't pay the bills with
promises, and so when promisedmoney didn't come, um, we were
kind of up a creek.
SPEAKER_02 (02:59):
Yeah.
Oof, that is, I mean, that's ahard road at any point.
Yeah.
But that early on in yourcareer, man, I'm sure that has
definitely shaped the work thatyou have been doing.
And even I would say, probablythe compassion that you have for
people as you're doing thatwork.
SPEAKER_00 (03:16):
Yeah, for sure.
Cause it's a lot of pressure.
It's a lot of stress.
And I had staff and volunteersand a board who were looking at
me.
And, you know, we had to go inand say we had a very difficult
board meeting, and we had tosay, you know, this money's just
not coming.
The funder has changedpriorities.
We really counted on one funder,or were counting on one funder
(03:37):
that changed priorities.
And you know, like I said,promises don't pay the bills,
checks due.
So pro tip don't get exciteduntil that check is in your
hand.
SPEAKER_02 (03:47):
Yes, absolutely.
Okay, so I think that this is Ithink it's a very timely
conversation because I knowthere are so many folks who uh
this year especially have hadgrants that they have always had
that are no longer there andthey're having to kind of
reprove themselves really asthey apply for new ones.
(04:07):
And you can't do you cannotprove yourself unless you can
prove that the work you're doingis actually working.
For sure.
Right.
And so I think so often we getstuck in this idea that oh, I
work I'm working for a nonprofitand it's really nice and we're
doing good work, and so that'sall that should matter.
SPEAKER_00 (04:26):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (04:26):
But the unfortunate reality, and in an ideal world,
I could see where that would betrue.
The unfortunate reality thoughis that we have to be able to
prove that what we're doing ismaking an impact or that the
thing we're setting out tochange is actually changing, or
whatever the case may be.
And so I I talk to so many uhorganizations and nonprofits who
(04:48):
don't even know how to measurewhat they're doing.
They're just doing it becauseit's what they've always done.
So let's start at the verybeginning of this process.
If somebody is is in that boat,maybe we're applying for new
funding, funding has been takenaway, we're rethinking, and we
have to start being able toprove what we've done.
(05:11):
What's kind of the first step?
Because that feels like anoverwhelming process if you've
never had to do it.
SPEAKER_00 (05:18):
It can be a very overwhelming process.
And in this environment, it ismore important now than ever
that we are taking an evaluationmindset every day.
SPEAKER_02 (05:29):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (05:29):
Because what a lot of folks who I'm working with
right now, what they're dealingwith is they're having to go
back and they're having to finddata, they're having to remember
how they did things and provethat works today.
Um, because there's just lessmoney available, right?
So the burden of proof ishigher.
So a year ago, two years ago,you could bring five
(05:53):
testimonials from participantsand maybe some counts of how
many people, you know, wentthrough your food bank or your
museum door, whatever it is,right?
Um, and that was sufficient.
But now you really have to showthat your food bank is doing
more good than the other foodbank, or your museum is serving
the community in a better waythan the other museum because
(06:16):
we're all applying for the samemoney and you've got to
differentiate.
So I think the number one thingI would say right now to
directors, to program managersand consultants is to
immediately start thinking aboutwhat data are we collecting?
What data could we becollecting?
(06:37):
And how can we systematize thatso that it's almost automatic?
So, thinking about, for example,I'll use the museum example.
I sat on the board of theLexington Children's Museum in
Lexington, Kentucky for um sevenyears.
Um that's one of my near anddear organizations.
So for them, you know, theymight be thinking about what
(06:58):
questions are we asking when wesell that admissions ticket,
right?
So, you know, in the past, maybewe collected your address, maybe
your zip code, so we could show,oh, well, we're pulling from all
over the state or from otherstates, you know, that those are
important, uh, important piecesof information.
But maybe now we're alsocollecting demographic
(07:18):
information.
Maybe now we're taking those zipcodes and comparing them to
census data zip codes and we canpull some uh poverty information
in.
So thinking about like at thatpoint of sale, can I ask a
different question?
Um, or on my website form, ifyou buy the buy your ticket
there, can I ask some different,maybe optional questions that
give me a little more nuance anddetail so that when that museum
(07:40):
says we had 5,000 people, we cansay we had 5,000 people from six
states, from 20 counties, fromthese um home income bands,
these background educationbands, etc.
That is gonna show a funder likethese people know what's up, and
we're gonna trust them with ourmoney more than this group that
(08:01):
just said we sold 5,000 tickets.
SPEAKER_02 (08:03):
That's so good.
That's so good.
Okay, so I think one of thethings that may that has to be a
part of this is you'recollecting that data is is one,
what do we do with it once wehave it?
And two, that there is anongoing debate, obviously, about
data protection.
SPEAKER_00 (08:22):
Yeah.
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (08:23):
So when you're when you're taking all that in,
certainly we have to have apolicy in place and we can have
a whole different discussion ona policy in place of how we deal
with data.
But I think sometimes nonprofitsdon't realize how much data
they're already sitting on.
SPEAKER_00 (08:37):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (08:38):
Because we don't know what to do with it once we
have it or how to how to thinkabout it in such a way as more
than just sells on aspreadsheet.
SPEAKER_00 (08:47):
For sure.
SPEAKER_02 (08:48):
Right.
So if that's the case,especially I'm thinking about
there's a nonprofit here inPittsburgh that I volunteer with
that does uh programming forunder-resourced communities on
Pittsburgh's north side fortheir students, for students in
first through 12th grade.
And so we have this wealth ofinformation on them and their
families and where they live andall of the things.
(09:09):
I don't, I'm curious about thenhow we use all of the
information we have to drivedecisions.
Right?
If we know these are the 17 zipcodes that our students come
from, what do we do with that?
Where how do we how do we startusing data as an evaluator in
our models there?
SPEAKER_00 (09:26):
Yeah, there's a couple of things you can do
here.
Um, so the first thing I do witha lot of clients, we just sort
of do a data audit and we say,what exactly are we collecting?
Because, like you said, a lot ofus don't know, and we find
ourselves sitting on thesemountains of data.
Yeah, things that we might notconsider to be data, you know,
testimonials are data, and weshould be collecting those and
storing those.
(09:46):
Um, the little cards that peopledrop in as they walk out of your
facility, right?
That is data.
So we do need to kind of takestock of what's there.
And then I think a really greatexercise is to do an exploratory
analysis.
And formally we call thatexploratory data analysis.
There's like books about thatand courses you could take.
But really, what it means iswe're just kind of playing in
(10:08):
it, like a splash pad at thepark.
We're just looking to see likewhat's in this data, what trends
are jumping out at us.
And then once we identify those,we can really home in on those
and create actionable evaluativequestions that we can then
study, we can refine our datacollection around these
questions and really start todifferentiate ourselves.
(10:31):
And I think that's a great wayto do it in this environment
because so many of us are doingkind of the same thing, right?
If you're a food bank, you'recompeting with every other food
bank in the country and you'reall kind of doing the same
thing, right?
Your food bank might have adifferent schedule, it might
have a different, you know,volume or or poverty threshold
(10:53):
or what have you, right?
But we're all providing food tohungry people.
So how do you differentiateyourself?
If the only goal you'remeasuring is how we're providing
food to hungry people, so iseverybody else.
But if you're digging deep andyou can find a little nuance, a
little pattern that maybe youdidn't know was there, then you
can explore that outcome.
That gives you something uniqueand competitive in this funding
(11:16):
environment and and in reallythis sort of marketing
environment too, right?
Where you have to just proveevery day that your organization
matters.
SPEAKER_02 (11:25):
That's so good.
So let's use the let's use thatfood bank example for a moment,
right?
So if you are, if that's yourpiece, we want to get as many,
we want to get food into as manyhomes as possible.
Great goal, by the way.
Well done, Anya.
Absolutely.
Good job.
Um what data are we looking atoutside of because we know how
(11:47):
many cars come through the line,right?
To pick up boxes.
We know how many boxes we putinto cars.
Um, d I'm curious then yourthoughts on how that data proves
programmatic effectiveness,right?
So when we're when we'reevaluating all of that data to
be able to say this we'resuccessful because, or this is
the impact we're having becausewhat points are we looking for
(12:11):
in the data to tell that storythat says, yep, we accomplished
the mission versus we fell shortof the mark?
SPEAKER_00 (12:16):
Yeah.
So so many, oh gosh, so manythings here.
So let me think.
One cool way, one cool thing youcould do that might
differentiate you is could youcollect data about the
nutritional profiles of yourboxes?
How are your boxes different,presumably better than boxes
that your competitors mighthave?
(12:38):
Thinking about are your boxesnutritionally complete?
Are your boxes nutritionallycomplete for a toddler versus an
adolescent?
That is a differentiator that wecould pull.
And that's data that youprobably have because you're
collecting, presumably, you'reinventorying food before it goes
into boxes, presumably you'reinventorying what's in those
(12:59):
boxes.
So you should have a pretty goodhandle on what's on what's going
on there.
If you don't, that's where youneed to start, right?
We need to understand we have20,000 cans of corn, we're
putting two cans in each box.
You may, you know, we got tostart there and and track that
inventory.
But if you're tracking thatinventory, that could be a
pretty easy thing for you tograsp.
(13:20):
Also, considering your impact onthe community as a whole.
So are there other data sourcesthat you can pull in to help
tell your story?
We call this a correlativeanalysis, right?
Where there it's not directlycausal.
I can't say for sure thatbecause I'm here, this thing
happened, but we are here andsince we got here, there are
(13:42):
fewer hungry bellies in the ER,for example.
SPEAKER_02 (13:45):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (13:46):
Um, or there are maybe fewer, maybe the homeless
shelter has fewer childrenshowing up because we're able to
fulfill this gap and we can kindof make some rough connections.
Those rough connections, they'rerough, and you're definitely
gonna have people who push backon those, but it's again a way
to really think about within thecontext of our community what
(14:09):
larger impact are we having?
SPEAKER_02 (14:11):
Yeah.
So it's interesting.
I just recorded a podcast withsomeone else earlier this week
who was talking about theimportance of tearing down silos
within organizations.
Um, and this man, I think,highlights that so well because
the folks who have access tothat data or the folks who are
hearing those testimonials arelikely the folks who are boots
(14:34):
on the ground putting boxes intocars, right?
To keep on the food bankanalysis.
SPEAKER_00 (14:39):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (14:39):
But if that story that they get told while they're
putting boxes into the car nevermakes it back to the marketing
and fundraising team to helptell that story, or never makes
it to the grant writer who'sresponsible for going to get
more funds to keep this programgoing, this is just a oh man,
(15:00):
this is such a good use case forwhy communication internally is
so important.
SPEAKER_00 (15:05):
Yes.
And program evaluation is notany one person's job.
It's not the director's job,it's not the program director's
job, it's not the fundraiser'sjob.
You should really have a teamthat is doing program evaluation
work together.
And when I work with nonprofits,I won't work with just the
director or just the programdirector.
Like I pull a team together forthat exact reason because we all
(15:27):
have different lenses andviewpoints.
I would also go a step furtherand say your program evaluation
team should have a board memberon it.
I think we forget about thoseother skills that our board
members have.
And when we recruit boardmembers, you know, a lot of
times we're thinking about likewe need somebody who's money
savvy, or maybe we need someonewho's more got, you know, got
some legal background, acommunications background to
(15:48):
kind of fill out, fill ourroster, right?
But thinking too about are therepeople in our community who
could serve in a volunteercapacity who could provide that
extra statistical knowledge,that extra program evaluation.
Maybe you've got a universityand you can recruit somebody
from that space.
Bring that board member intoyour program evaluation
conversations and let them bringtheir passion to the table.
(16:12):
Because I always find that boardmember passion is a little
hotter.
It doesn't get as cynical, maybethat staff passion.
I mean, that staff passion isalways there, right?
You have to have that passion todo nonprofit work, but it can
get a little cynical, right?
As you're in day in and day out.
And so having that sort ofoptimistic board member passion
(16:33):
at the table can really reframea program evaluation
conversation.
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SPEAKER_02 (17:28):
So I'm curious, in your certainly professional
opinion, right, because when Isay when I say things like
program evaluation, right, oryour program evaluation team,
yeah, is that something that yousee as like we should be
evaluating every month, everyquarter, every year, we're doing
(17:50):
an in-depth analysis.
What's kind of the the scheduleor the recommendation for really
deep diving into the evaluationprocess for your actual
programs?
SPEAKER_00 (18:01):
So that's a tricky one because it really depends on
the cycle of your work.
And I would also say the cycleof your funding.
So let's say that you are umprimarily grant funded.
Then you're probably doing aprogram evaluation halfway
through that grant and a deepdive at the end of that grant.
(18:22):
Okay.
Because you want to prove thatthat grant worked so that maybe
they'll give you another one,right?
Or so that you can launch off ofthat grant to another foundation
and say, you know, Annie KC, letus do this.
We're gonna come to you.
Will you let us do this?
So I think that's a cycle tothink about there.
If you're more philanthropicallyfunded, like you're one of those
like small donor organizationsthat's pulling, you know,$20
(18:45):
bills in all day, every day, andthat's your meat.
Then I think you're reallyfocused on um the cycle of your
work and how that looks.
So for example, I hate to stayon the food bank, but now I've
got food bank on the brain.
You know, the food banks, foodbanks are a little cyclical.
They have big spikes in Novemberand December, right?
(19:07):
Because there's specialfood-oriented events that happen
in those months.
And they tend to have kind ofdrop downs in the middle of the
summer, um, especially in ruralareas.
I live in Kentucky, so we've gota lot of rural areas.
Our food banks do less in thesummer because people are
growing food in those ruralareas in the summer, right?
So there's sort of some wavesand some cycles.
Yeah.
(19:27):
And so I think then you kind ofhave to ride that wave and
decide kind of where is theright point in your wave that
when does it make sense to youand your workflow to do that?
Um, and then I would also sayprogrammatic.
Anytime that you have a specialprogram, maybe you're launching
a new program, you've made achange to a program, and so
you're rolling it out, you know,in a new, you know, uh it used
(19:50):
to be online and now you'redoing it in person or something
like that, yeah, that needs tobe really carefully monitored
because then you can get intocontinuous improvement cycles
where we're just tweaking andchanging and monitoring all the
time.
And I'll tell you, our funderslove to see that because that
really shows that you're takingthe quality of delivery outcome
seriously.
(20:10):
If every three or four monthsyou're saying, okay, I wanna,
we've been sitting in a circle,but now we're gonna sit at
tables and we're gonna see ifthat increases the community
discussion, whatever it is,right?
They want to see that you'remaking those adjustments.
That shows that you're reallytaking it seriously and you're
not just locked into sort ofthat founder's mindset of this
is the way it's supposed tolook, and we're not gonna
(20:32):
deviate from this.
SPEAKER_02 (20:34):
When it's so easy to get stuck in that.
SPEAKER_00 (20:36):
Oh, then they've done that.
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (20:39):
Yeah.
So, okay, so on that note then,because you have sat in the
seat.
Yeah, you have sat in thatexecutive director's seat and
know the pressure and struggle.
Yeah.
If someone is listening todaygoing, you know, that's a really
interesting idea.
We've never evaluated nothing.
Right.
Or that's just not, it's notmaybe been a part of their
(21:01):
culture or you know, whatever.
Um I'm curious what advice or orwhere you would tell someone to
start from like from the jump.
And obviously, I mean, afantastic answer is hire a
consultant and like Matthew andbring them in and help them help
you figure this out.
But if you've never even like,I'm thinking about I there's an
(21:24):
organization I was working withwho had never done they run
classes like continuing edclasses for low-income
neighborhoods to get to getfolks job ready.
And they didn't do they weren'tdoing any sort of evaluation at
the end of class of like whatwas helpful or going back and
checking in with those folks tosay, hey, how where's your job
(21:44):
search?
Did this class help you?
All of that takes time and prepthough, right?
For sure.
So if somebody is maybe in thatoverwhelmed founder executive
director seat, going, Yeah, Iknow this is something we need
to do, where do we even start?
SPEAKER_00 (22:01):
Yeah.
So if you're starting from zero,and I work with a lot of startup
nonprofits that are in this samespace, you're starting from
zero.
The best thing I think you cando is pick one outcome, one
program that you're running, andstart to systematically collect
the data related to thatprogram.
(22:22):
So, for example, for yourclasses, that data is going to
be registrations.
We might look at ourregistration form.
Is it robust enough?
Are we collecting maybe someoptional demographic questions
and some things like that?
By the way, I always saydemographic, demographic
questions need to be optionalbecause that can really turn
people off.
So just throw that one outthere.
(22:42):
But you know, are you askingthose optional questions in your
registration form?
Are you keeping hold of thoseregistration forms?
I mean, do you even know wherethey go once somebody gets met
and the class is over?
Who's in charge of those?
Also, program evaluation at theend.
What did you think about thisclass?
Follow-up interviews down theroad.
That's a great place for aconsultant to come in, by the
(23:04):
way.
Follow-up interviews, they takea lot of time.
And sometimes people will tellme things that they won't tell
you because they're afraidthey're hurting hurt your
feelings, but they don't care tohurt my feelings because I'm not
there, right?
So um, anyway, thinking aboutthat.
So think about how can wesystematically collect it, how
can we make it automatic, right?
If data collection is an extrathing you have to do, you're not
(23:24):
gonna do it.
And then periodically pull thatdata and see what's going on,
enter into a cycle of continuousimprovement where then you're
responding to that data.
So if they don't like thetemperature in the room of your
class, then we're gonna changethe temperature in the room and
see if that makes theevaluations get better, whatever
it is.
We're gonna tweak those.
Document, document, documentalong the way.
(23:45):
Because if you can't prove toyour funder that you're doing
that, and you just say, well,you know, they they didn't
really like the temperature inOctober, so in November we
turned the thermostat up.
Well, okay, but you don't haveany proof that you did that.
I have to take your word for it.
So document all of those things.
Also, that documentation helpspeople like me when we come in
to help you, because I have aplace to start, and it saves you
(24:09):
time and money because you don'thave to like I don't have to
look at you and go, you reallygot to do this for three more
months, and then call me.
Here's what I want you to do.
I can pick up where you left offfor that more kind of
academically rigorous programevaluation that you could
potentially even send to anacademic journal for publication
to show that your stuff isworking.
SPEAKER_02 (24:28):
That's so good.
I'm curious when you go intowork with folks, is there one
consistent theme of like, uh, ifeveryone would just do this
thing, like is there one thatyou we could say is like maybe a
warning sign for or is there oneshe's like, man, I'm so tired of
(24:51):
fixing this one error foreverybody?
SPEAKER_00 (24:54):
I'm gonna give you two.
SPEAKER_02 (24:56):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (24:56):
The first one is registration forms.
I know I've mentioned thatseveral times, but that's
because it's always front ofmind registration form has to be
more than first name, last name,email address.
So registration forms is a hugemissed opportunity.
Then um on the back end, countsof participants.
(25:17):
And what and I did this too.
When I was a nonprofit founder,we served over a thousand
teachers a year.
And I would go around and Iwould tell everybody and
everybody we served over athousand teachers a year.
And that sounds great, but guesswhat?
So did every other educationnonprofit in my state at that
time, right?
Because there's 60,000 teachersin my state, and they're all
going in somewhere for theirlearning.
And so when when I look at yourwebsite, if all your website is,
(25:41):
is we had 20,000 kids, we did50,000 meals, whatever it is,
those are very impressive,important numbers, and you
should obviously have that.
But if that's the extent of yourprogram evaluation, you look the
same as everybody else.
You are not competitive, andother people are gonna get that
money that you want.
SPEAKER_02 (26:00):
Yeah.
Oh, that's so good.
And because realistically, youknow, we all have a vision and a
mission that we're trying toaccomplish.
SPEAKER_00 (26:09):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (26:12):
Numbers only tell part of the story.
Absolutely.
Right.
The number is good, but ifyou're not telling me a story of
what what how that changed athousand different teachers'
lives or how it made educationbetter, then we've missed the
boat.
SPEAKER_00 (26:27):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (26:28):
I I need the impact as part of it.
SPEAKER_00 (26:31):
Exactly.
And you know, evaluation we callthat mixed methods, where we've
got some numbers and somestories, and those are the best
because you never know what kindof brain your founder, your
funder is gonna have.
And so if you're you might havea funder who is very moved by
emotional stories and picturesof little children on
playgrounds and things likethat.
(26:52):
You might have a funder who islike, I have this much money to
give, and I want to give it tothe people who are gonna give it
to the most people, and I wantnumbers.
So you have to have both inevery report and every
evaluation.
SPEAKER_02 (27:05):
That's so important.
Matthew, this has been afantastic conversation.
And I think really full of a lotof good takeaways.
If people are curious to likelearn more about you and the
work that you do or connect withyou, what's the best way to go
about doing that?
SPEAKER_00 (27:18):
Yeah, the best way to find me is at
nonprofiteval.com.
Um, there you'll find all mycontact information, all my
socials, as well as thedifferent kinds of evaluation
processes that I can assist youwith.
So nonprofiteval.com.
You can also find me on socialmedia.
Um, just search for me.
I'm basically on all of them.
SPEAKER_02 (27:37):
And just out of sheer curiosity, what type of
evaluations are those?
SPEAKER_00 (27:42):
So um really I specialize in startup and
smaller nonprofits focusing onreally academically rigorous
program evaluations.
So my goal is to help youevaluate your nonprofit the way
that big, giant nonprofits arepaying$150,000 to massive
research consultants to do.
(28:02):
Um, I don't have all thatoverhead.
So I can do it at a reasonableprice that really helps those
small and startup nonprofitsprove that their stuff is
working.
So it's really all about thatacademic rigor.
That's what I bring to the tablethat you might not have the
skills to do on your own.
SPEAKER_02 (28:16):
That's so good and such a needed, such a needed
service.
So I'm sure you're sure a lot offolks will be checking that out.
Yeah.
As we move to close, yeah,there's a question that I've
been asking everybody thisseason, with you know, with the
understanding that it has beenquite a year for a lot of folks
in the nonprofit sector.
What a season.
Uh so if you could give onepiece of wisdom or encouragement
(28:39):
or advice, counsel to thosenonprofit leaders, especially in
those kind of startup to smallbootstrapping their way through
right now, what would that be?
SPEAKER_00 (28:49):
You know, I'm gonna go back to my 20s and I'm gonna
say you're gonna be okay, andyour work is gonna be okay.
A lot of nonprofits are askingthemselves if they can keep the
doors open, and a lot of leadersare having to make hard staffing
decisions and reductions, andthat is hard.
(29:12):
But I want to let you know, hereI am, you know, 15 years down
the road from my grand adventureas a founder, and looking back,
going, you know, that was goodwork.
I'm proud of it.
I am okay.
And the work that I startedthere, even though we aren't
doing it, other people are.
(29:33):
And the projects that we had todrop, we very intentionally gave
them to other people who wethought were gonna outlive us.
And so that work is stillhappening.
I'm just not the one doing it.
And so I think take you're gonnabe okay, your work is gonna be
okay.
Take a little of that sort ofexistential pressure off of
(29:54):
yourself, yeah.
Um, and know that your missionis important, other people think
it's important.
Important.
It's going to be okay in theend.
SPEAKER_02 (30:03):
That's such a good reminder.
Because it's so easy to justlike to think that the entire
weight of the world is on ourshoulders.
And if we don't do it, no onewill.
And then these communities won'tget.
So it's gonna I it is gonna beokay.
I like that one.
SPEAKER_00 (30:16):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (30:17):
So good.
Well, Matthew, thank you.
This has been a fantasticconversation, I'm sure.
Very helpful for a lot of folks.
So thank you so much for sharingyour wisdom with us today.
SPEAKER_00 (30:26):
Yeah, thanks, Megan.
I'm happy to be here anytime.
SPEAKER_02 (30:29):
So again, this has been another episode of the
Nonprofit Hub Radio Podcast withmy guest Matthew Courtney, who's
the principal consultant atCourtney Consulting.
My name's Megan Spear.
This has been another episode ofthe Nonprofit Hub Radio Podcast,
and we'll see you next time.
Marketing Support Network is proud to serve the
nonprofit community by offeringfull service contact center
fulfillment, digital marketing,and fundraising services.
Your vision is our mission, andwe can't wait to partner with
you.
Visit marketingsupportnetwork.com for more
information.
SPEAKER_02 (00:18):
Welcome back to the Nonprofit Hub Radio Podcast.
I'm your host, Megan Speer,joined today by Matthew
Courtney, who's the principalconsultant at Courtney
Consulting, also a Nonprofit Hubcoaching member.
So we're excited to have himhere today.
Matthew, welcome in.
SPEAKER_00 (00:33):
Hey Megan, thanks for having me today.
SPEAKER_02 (00:34):
Yeah, my pleasure.
So we're gonna dig into a topic.
I feel like I've been on a runof these lately, of like things
we've I've never talked about onthe podcast.
So I'm excited to dig into thatidea, especially around what for
some of our program folks,around uh some of those
evaluations.
So before we do that, uh take amoment and introduce yourself,
tell us who you are and and kindof about the journey, the little
(00:57):
bit that got you to thisconversation today.
SPEAKER_00 (01:00):
Yeah, well, um, it's great to be here with you today.
I'm Matthew Courtney, and um mywork specializes in nonprofit
strategic planning and programevaluation.
I started actually started mycareer out as a music teacher,
and um, that sort of publicservice piece I think has sort
of always been in there.
And when I was 25, my schoolclosed.
(01:23):
And instead of trying to findanother music teaching job, I
decided to jump into the deepend and become a nonprofit
founder.
Um, I started a nonprofit calledthe Bluegrass Center for Teacher
Quality, and we were focused onteacher professional development
and thinking about how we canempower teachers to empower each
other.
Um at 25?
At 25, wow, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (01:45):
Okay, good for you.
SPEAKER_00 (01:47):
The best advice.
SPEAKER_02 (01:48):
I'm just thinking about myself at 25.
There's no way that I would havebeen ready for such a thing.
SPEAKER_00 (01:53):
You know, it was truly a wild adventure.
Um the best schooling um that Icould ever have asked for.
And I really think that itlaunched me years ahead of where
I would have been had I kind ofgone a traditional, you know,
climb the ladder route.
Cause I was literally right inthe deep end, having to learn to
do all of the things, as I'msure many of your listeners also
(02:16):
find themselves to be at anyage, because uh the deep end is
the deep end, it always is.
Yeah, so I did that for fouryears until unfortunately we
lost all of our funding kind ofall at once, and we had to close
our doors.
Um, that was really painful, butalso very formative because I I
learned that I had made somemistakes as the leader around
(02:41):
strategic planning and programevaluation, and I didn't have
what I needed to show fundersthat my work could be sustained
and should be sustained.
And so when uh you know, youcan't pay the bills with
promises, and so when promisedmoney didn't come, um, we were
kind of up a creek.
SPEAKER_02 (02:59):
Yeah.
Oof, that is, I mean, that's ahard road at any point.
Yeah.
But that early on in yourcareer, man, I'm sure that has
definitely shaped the work thatyou have been doing.
And even I would say, probablythe compassion that you have for
people as you're doing thatwork.
SPEAKER_00 (03:16):
Yeah, for sure.
Cause it's a lot of pressure.
It's a lot of stress.
And I had staff and volunteersand a board who were looking at
me.
And, you know, we had to go inand say we had a very difficult
board meeting, and we had tosay, you know, this money's just
not coming.
The funder has changedpriorities.
We really counted on one funder,or were counting on one funder
(03:37):
that changed priorities.
And you know, like I said,promises don't pay the bills,
checks due.
So pro tip don't get exciteduntil that check is in your
hand.
SPEAKER_02 (03:47):
Yes, absolutely.
Okay, so I think that this is Ithink it's a very timely
conversation because I knowthere are so many folks who uh
this year especially have hadgrants that they have always had
that are no longer there andthey're having to kind of
reprove themselves really asthey apply for new ones.
(04:07):
And you can't do you cannotprove yourself unless you can
prove that the work you're doingis actually working.
For sure.
Right.
And so I think so often we getstuck in this idea that oh, I
work I'm working for a nonprofitand it's really nice and we're
doing good work, and so that'sall that should matter.
SPEAKER_00 (04:26):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (04:26):
But the unfortunate reality, and in an ideal world,
I could see where that would betrue.
The unfortunate reality thoughis that we have to be able to
prove that what we're doing ismaking an impact or that the
thing we're setting out tochange is actually changing, or
whatever the case may be.
And so I I talk to so many uhorganizations and nonprofits who
(04:48):
don't even know how to measurewhat they're doing.
They're just doing it becauseit's what they've always done.
So let's start at the verybeginning of this process.
If somebody is is in that boat,maybe we're applying for new
funding, funding has been takenaway, we're rethinking, and we
have to start being able toprove what we've done.
(05:11):
What's kind of the first step?
Because that feels like anoverwhelming process if you've
never had to do it.
SPEAKER_00 (05:18):
It can be a very overwhelming process.
And in this environment, it ismore important now than ever
that we are taking an evaluationmindset every day.
SPEAKER_02 (05:29):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (05:29):
Because what a lot of folks who I'm working with
right now, what they're dealingwith is they're having to go
back and they're having to finddata, they're having to remember
how they did things and provethat works today.
Um, because there's just lessmoney available, right?
So the burden of proof ishigher.
So a year ago, two years ago,you could bring five
(05:53):
testimonials from participantsand maybe some counts of how
many people, you know, wentthrough your food bank or your
museum door, whatever it is,right?
Um, and that was sufficient.
But now you really have to showthat your food bank is doing
more good than the other foodbank, or your museum is serving
the community in a better waythan the other museum because
(06:16):
we're all applying for the samemoney and you've got to
differentiate.
So I think the number one thingI would say right now to
directors, to program managersand consultants is to
immediately start thinking aboutwhat data are we collecting?
What data could we becollecting?
(06:37):
And how can we systematize thatso that it's almost automatic?
So, thinking about, for example,I'll use the museum example.
I sat on the board of theLexington Children's Museum in
Lexington, Kentucky for um sevenyears.
Um that's one of my near anddear organizations.
So for them, you know, theymight be thinking about what
(06:58):
questions are we asking when wesell that admissions ticket,
right?
So, you know, in the past, maybewe collected your address, maybe
your zip code, so we could show,oh, well, we're pulling from all
over the state or from otherstates, you know, that those are
important, uh, important piecesof information.
But maybe now we're alsocollecting demographic
(07:18):
information.
Maybe now we're taking those zipcodes and comparing them to
census data zip codes and we canpull some uh poverty information
in.
So thinking about like at thatpoint of sale, can I ask a
different question?
Um, or on my website form, ifyou buy the buy your ticket
there, can I ask some different,maybe optional questions that
give me a little more nuance anddetail so that when that museum
(07:40):
says we had 5,000 people, we cansay we had 5,000 people from six
states, from 20 counties, fromthese um home income bands,
these background educationbands, etc.
That is gonna show a funder likethese people know what's up, and
we're gonna trust them with ourmoney more than this group that
(08:01):
just said we sold 5,000 tickets.
SPEAKER_02 (08:03):
That's so good.
That's so good.
Okay, so I think one of thethings that may that has to be a
part of this is you'recollecting that data is is one,
what do we do with it once wehave it?
And two, that there is anongoing debate, obviously, about
data protection.
SPEAKER_00 (08:22):
Yeah.
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (08:23):
So when you're when you're taking all that in,
certainly we have to have apolicy in place and we can have
a whole different discussion ona policy in place of how we deal
with data.
But I think sometimes nonprofitsdon't realize how much data
they're already sitting on.
SPEAKER_00 (08:37):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (08:38):
Because we don't know what to do with it once we
have it or how to how to thinkabout it in such a way as more
than just sells on aspreadsheet.
SPEAKER_00 (08:47):
For sure.
SPEAKER_02 (08:48):
Right.
So if that's the case,especially I'm thinking about
there's a nonprofit here inPittsburgh that I volunteer with
that does uh programming forunder-resourced communities on
Pittsburgh's north side fortheir students, for students in
first through 12th grade.
And so we have this wealth ofinformation on them and their
families and where they live andall of the things.
(09:09):
I don't, I'm curious about thenhow we use all of the
information we have to drivedecisions.
Right?
If we know these are the 17 zipcodes that our students come
from, what do we do with that?
Where how do we how do we startusing data as an evaluator in
our models there?
SPEAKER_00 (09:26):
Yeah, there's a couple of things you can do
here.
Um, so the first thing I do witha lot of clients, we just sort
of do a data audit and we say,what exactly are we collecting?
Because, like you said, a lot ofus don't know, and we find
ourselves sitting on thesemountains of data.
Yeah, things that we might notconsider to be data, you know,
testimonials are data, and weshould be collecting those and
storing those.
(09:46):
Um, the little cards that peopledrop in as they walk out of your
facility, right?
That is data.
So we do need to kind of takestock of what's there.
And then I think a really greatexercise is to do an exploratory
analysis.
And formally we call thatexploratory data analysis.
There's like books about thatand courses you could take.
But really, what it means iswe're just kind of playing in
(10:08):
it, like a splash pad at thepark.
We're just looking to see likewhat's in this data, what trends
are jumping out at us.
And then once we identify those,we can really home in on those
and create actionable evaluativequestions that we can then
study, we can refine our datacollection around these
questions and really start todifferentiate ourselves.
(10:31):
And I think that's a great wayto do it in this environment
because so many of us are doingkind of the same thing, right?
If you're a food bank, you'recompeting with every other food
bank in the country and you'reall kind of doing the same
thing, right?
Your food bank might have adifferent schedule, it might
have a different, you know,volume or or poverty threshold
(10:53):
or what have you, right?
But we're all providing food tohungry people.
So how do you differentiateyourself?
If the only goal you'remeasuring is how we're providing
food to hungry people, so iseverybody else.
But if you're digging deep andyou can find a little nuance, a
little pattern that maybe youdidn't know was there, then you
can explore that outcome.
That gives you something uniqueand competitive in this funding
(11:16):
environment and and in reallythis sort of marketing
environment too, right?
Where you have to just proveevery day that your organization
matters.
SPEAKER_02 (11:25):
That's so good.
So let's use the let's use thatfood bank example for a moment,
right?
So if you are, if that's yourpiece, we want to get as many,
we want to get food into as manyhomes as possible.
Great goal, by the way.
Well done, Anya.
Absolutely.
Good job.
Um what data are we looking atoutside of because we know how
(11:47):
many cars come through the line,right?
To pick up boxes.
We know how many boxes we putinto cars.
Um, d I'm curious then yourthoughts on how that data proves
programmatic effectiveness,right?
So when we're when we'reevaluating all of that data to
be able to say this we'resuccessful because, or this is
the impact we're having becausewhat points are we looking for
(12:11):
in the data to tell that storythat says, yep, we accomplished
the mission versus we fell shortof the mark?
SPEAKER_00 (12:16):
Yeah.
So so many, oh gosh, so manythings here.
So let me think.
One cool way, one cool thing youcould do that might
differentiate you is could youcollect data about the
nutritional profiles of yourboxes?
How are your boxes different,presumably better than boxes
that your competitors mighthave?
(12:38):
Thinking about are your boxesnutritionally complete?
Are your boxes nutritionallycomplete for a toddler versus an
adolescent?
That is a differentiator that wecould pull.
And that's data that youprobably have because you're
collecting, presumably, you'reinventorying food before it goes
into boxes, presumably you'reinventorying what's in those
(12:59):
boxes.
So you should have a pretty goodhandle on what's on what's going
on there.
If you don't, that's where youneed to start, right?
We need to understand we have20,000 cans of corn, we're
putting two cans in each box.
You may, you know, we got tostart there and and track that
inventory.
But if you're tracking thatinventory, that could be a
pretty easy thing for you tograsp.
(13:20):
Also, considering your impact onthe community as a whole.
So are there other data sourcesthat you can pull in to help
tell your story?
We call this a correlativeanalysis, right?
Where there it's not directlycausal.
I can't say for sure thatbecause I'm here, this thing
happened, but we are here andsince we got here, there are
(13:42):
fewer hungry bellies in the ER,for example.
SPEAKER_02 (13:45):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (13:46):
Um, or there are maybe fewer, maybe the homeless
shelter has fewer childrenshowing up because we're able to
fulfill this gap and we can kindof make some rough connections.
Those rough connections, they'rerough, and you're definitely
gonna have people who push backon those, but it's again a way
to really think about within thecontext of our community what
(14:09):
larger impact are we having?
SPEAKER_02 (14:11):
Yeah.
So it's interesting.
I just recorded a podcast withsomeone else earlier this week
who was talking about theimportance of tearing down silos
within organizations.
Um, and this man, I think,highlights that so well because
the folks who have access tothat data or the folks who are
hearing those testimonials arelikely the folks who are boots
(14:34):
on the ground putting boxes intocars, right?
To keep on the food bankanalysis.
SPEAKER_00 (14:39):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (14:39):
But if that story that they get told while they're
putting boxes into the car nevermakes it back to the marketing
and fundraising team to helptell that story, or never makes
it to the grant writer who'sresponsible for going to get
more funds to keep this programgoing, this is just a oh man,
(15:00):
this is such a good use case forwhy communication internally is
so important.
SPEAKER_00 (15:05):
Yes.
And program evaluation is notany one person's job.
It's not the director's job,it's not the program director's
job, it's not the fundraiser'sjob.
You should really have a teamthat is doing program evaluation
work together.
And when I work with nonprofits,I won't work with just the
director or just the programdirector.
Like I pull a team together forthat exact reason because we all
(15:27):
have different lenses andviewpoints.
I would also go a step furtherand say your program evaluation
team should have a board memberon it.
I think we forget about thoseother skills that our board
members have.
And when we recruit boardmembers, you know, a lot of
times we're thinking about likewe need somebody who's money
savvy, or maybe we need someonewho's more got, you know, got
some legal background, acommunications background to
(15:48):
kind of fill out, fill ourroster, right?
But thinking too about are therepeople in our community who
could serve in a volunteercapacity who could provide that
extra statistical knowledge,that extra program evaluation.
Maybe you've got a universityand you can recruit somebody
from that space.
Bring that board member intoyour program evaluation
conversations and let them bringtheir passion to the table.
(16:12):
Because I always find that boardmember passion is a little
hotter.
It doesn't get as cynical, maybethat staff passion.
I mean, that staff passion isalways there, right?
You have to have that passion todo nonprofit work, but it can
get a little cynical, right?
As you're in day in and day out.
And so having that sort ofoptimistic board member passion
(16:33):
at the table can really reframea program evaluation
conversation.
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SPEAKER_02 (17:28):
So I'm curious, in your certainly professional
opinion, right, because when Isay when I say things like
program evaluation, right, oryour program evaluation team,
yeah, is that something that yousee as like we should be
evaluating every month, everyquarter, every year, we're doing
(17:50):
an in-depth analysis.
What's kind of the the scheduleor the recommendation for really
deep diving into the evaluationprocess for your actual
programs?
SPEAKER_00 (18:01):
So that's a tricky one because it really depends on
the cycle of your work.
And I would also say the cycleof your funding.
So let's say that you are umprimarily grant funded.
Then you're probably doing aprogram evaluation halfway
through that grant and a deepdive at the end of that grant.
(18:22):
Okay.
Because you want to prove thatthat grant worked so that maybe
they'll give you another one,right?
Or so that you can launch off ofthat grant to another foundation
and say, you know, Annie KC, letus do this.
We're gonna come to you.
Will you let us do this?
So I think that's a cycle tothink about there.
If you're more philanthropicallyfunded, like you're one of those
like small donor organizationsthat's pulling, you know,$20
(18:45):
bills in all day, every day, andthat's your meat.
Then I think you're reallyfocused on um the cycle of your
work and how that looks.
So for example, I hate to stayon the food bank, but now I've
got food bank on the brain.
You know, the food banks, foodbanks are a little cyclical.
They have big spikes in Novemberand December, right?
(19:07):
Because there's specialfood-oriented events that happen
in those months.
And they tend to have kind ofdrop downs in the middle of the
summer, um, especially in ruralareas.
I live in Kentucky, so we've gota lot of rural areas.
Our food banks do less in thesummer because people are
growing food in those ruralareas in the summer, right?
So there's sort of some wavesand some cycles.
Yeah.
(19:27):
And so I think then you kind ofhave to ride that wave and
decide kind of where is theright point in your wave that
when does it make sense to youand your workflow to do that?
Um, and then I would also sayprogrammatic.
Anytime that you have a specialprogram, maybe you're launching
a new program, you've made achange to a program, and so
you're rolling it out, you know,in a new, you know, uh it used
(19:50):
to be online and now you'redoing it in person or something
like that, yeah, that needs tobe really carefully monitored
because then you can get intocontinuous improvement cycles
where we're just tweaking andchanging and monitoring all the
time.
And I'll tell you, our funderslove to see that because that
really shows that you're takingthe quality of delivery outcome
seriously.
(20:10):
If every three or four monthsyou're saying, okay, I wanna,
we've been sitting in a circle,but now we're gonna sit at
tables and we're gonna see ifthat increases the community
discussion, whatever it is,right?
They want to see that you'remaking those adjustments.
That shows that you're reallytaking it seriously and you're
not just locked into sort ofthat founder's mindset of this
is the way it's supposed tolook, and we're not gonna
(20:32):
deviate from this.
SPEAKER_02 (20:34):
When it's so easy to get stuck in that.
SPEAKER_00 (20:36):
Oh, then they've done that.
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (20:39):
Yeah.
So, okay, so on that note then,because you have sat in the
seat.
Yeah, you have sat in thatexecutive director's seat and
know the pressure and struggle.
Yeah.
If someone is listening todaygoing, you know, that's a really
interesting idea.
We've never evaluated nothing.
Right.
Or that's just not, it's notmaybe been a part of their
(21:01):
culture or you know, whatever.
Um I'm curious what advice or orwhere you would tell someone to
start from like from the jump.
And obviously, I mean, afantastic answer is hire a
consultant and like Matthew andbring them in and help them help
you figure this out.
But if you've never even like,I'm thinking about I there's an
(21:24):
organization I was working withwho had never done they run
classes like continuing edclasses for low-income
neighborhoods to get to getfolks job ready.
And they didn't do they weren'tdoing any sort of evaluation at
the end of class of like whatwas helpful or going back and
checking in with those folks tosay, hey, how where's your job
(21:44):
search?
Did this class help you?
All of that takes time and prepthough, right?
For sure.
So if somebody is maybe in thatoverwhelmed founder executive
director seat, going, Yeah, Iknow this is something we need
to do, where do we even start?
SPEAKER_00 (22:01):
Yeah.
So if you're starting from zero,and I work with a lot of startup
nonprofits that are in this samespace, you're starting from
zero.
The best thing I think you cando is pick one outcome, one
program that you're running, andstart to systematically collect
the data related to thatprogram.
(22:22):
So, for example, for yourclasses, that data is going to
be registrations.
We might look at ourregistration form.
Is it robust enough?
Are we collecting maybe someoptional demographic questions
and some things like that?
By the way, I always saydemographic, demographic
questions need to be optionalbecause that can really turn
people off.
So just throw that one outthere.
(22:42):
But you know, are you askingthose optional questions in your
registration form?
Are you keeping hold of thoseregistration forms?
I mean, do you even know wherethey go once somebody gets met
and the class is over?
Who's in charge of those?
Also, program evaluation at theend.
What did you think about thisclass?
Follow-up interviews down theroad.
That's a great place for aconsultant to come in, by the
(23:04):
way.
Follow-up interviews, they takea lot of time.
And sometimes people will tellme things that they won't tell
you because they're afraidthey're hurting hurt your
feelings, but they don't care tohurt my feelings because I'm not
there, right?
So um, anyway, thinking aboutthat.
So think about how can wesystematically collect it, how
can we make it automatic, right?
If data collection is an extrathing you have to do, you're not
(23:24):
gonna do it.
And then periodically pull thatdata and see what's going on,
enter into a cycle of continuousimprovement where then you're
responding to that data.
So if they don't like thetemperature in the room of your
class, then we're gonna changethe temperature in the room and
see if that makes theevaluations get better, whatever
it is.
We're gonna tweak those.
Document, document, documentalong the way.
(23:45):
Because if you can't prove toyour funder that you're doing
that, and you just say, well,you know, they they didn't
really like the temperature inOctober, so in November we
turned the thermostat up.
Well, okay, but you don't haveany proof that you did that.
I have to take your word for it.
So document all of those things.
Also, that documentation helpspeople like me when we come in
to help you, because I have aplace to start, and it saves you
(24:09):
time and money because you don'thave to like I don't have to
look at you and go, you reallygot to do this for three more
months, and then call me.
Here's what I want you to do.
I can pick up where you left offfor that more kind of
academically rigorous programevaluation that you could
potentially even send to anacademic journal for publication
to show that your stuff isworking.
SPEAKER_02 (24:28):
That's so good.
I'm curious when you go intowork with folks, is there one
consistent theme of like, uh, ifeveryone would just do this
thing, like is there one thatyou we could say is like maybe a
warning sign for or is there oneshe's like, man, I'm so tired of
(24:51):
fixing this one error foreverybody?
SPEAKER_00 (24:54):
I'm gonna give you two.
SPEAKER_02 (24:56):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (24:56):
The first one is registration forms.
I know I've mentioned thatseveral times, but that's
because it's always front ofmind registration form has to be
more than first name, last name,email address.
So registration forms is a hugemissed opportunity.
Then um on the back end, countsof participants.
(25:17):
And what and I did this too.
When I was a nonprofit founder,we served over a thousand
teachers a year.
And I would go around and Iwould tell everybody and
everybody we served over athousand teachers a year.
And that sounds great, but guesswhat?
So did every other educationnonprofit in my state at that
time, right?
Because there's 60,000 teachersin my state, and they're all
going in somewhere for theirlearning.
And so when when I look at yourwebsite, if all your website is,
(25:41):
is we had 20,000 kids, we did50,000 meals, whatever it is,
those are very impressive,important numbers, and you
should obviously have that.
But if that's the extent of yourprogram evaluation, you look the
same as everybody else.
You are not competitive, andother people are gonna get that
money that you want.
SPEAKER_02 (26:00):
Yeah.
Oh, that's so good.
And because realistically, youknow, we all have a vision and a
mission that we're trying toaccomplish.
SPEAKER_00 (26:09):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (26:12):
Numbers only tell part of the story.
Absolutely.
Right.
The number is good, but ifyou're not telling me a story of
what what how that changed athousand different teachers'
lives or how it made educationbetter, then we've missed the
boat.
SPEAKER_00 (26:27):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (26:28):
I I need the impact as part of it.
SPEAKER_00 (26:31):
Exactly.
And you know, evaluation we callthat mixed methods, where we've
got some numbers and somestories, and those are the best
because you never know what kindof brain your founder, your
funder is gonna have.
And so if you're you might havea funder who is very moved by
emotional stories and picturesof little children on
playgrounds and things likethat.
(26:52):
You might have a funder who islike, I have this much money to
give, and I want to give it tothe people who are gonna give it
to the most people, and I wantnumbers.
So you have to have both inevery report and every
evaluation.
SPEAKER_02 (27:05):
That's so important.
Matthew, this has been afantastic conversation.
And I think really full of a lotof good takeaways.
If people are curious to likelearn more about you and the
work that you do or connect withyou, what's the best way to go
about doing that?
SPEAKER_00 (27:18):
Yeah, the best way to find me is at
nonprofiteval.com.
Um, there you'll find all mycontact information, all my
socials, as well as thedifferent kinds of evaluation
processes that I can assist youwith.
So nonprofiteval.com.
You can also find me on socialmedia.
Um, just search for me.
I'm basically on all of them.
SPEAKER_02 (27:37):
And just out of sheer curiosity, what type of
evaluations are those?
SPEAKER_00 (27:42):
So um really I specialize in startup and
smaller nonprofits focusing onreally academically rigorous
program evaluations.
So my goal is to help youevaluate your nonprofit the way
that big, giant nonprofits arepaying$150,000 to massive
research consultants to do.
(28:02):
Um, I don't have all thatoverhead.
So I can do it at a reasonableprice that really helps those
small and startup nonprofitsprove that their stuff is
working.
So it's really all about thatacademic rigor.
That's what I bring to the tablethat you might not have the
skills to do on your own.
SPEAKER_02 (28:16):
That's so good and such a needed, such a needed
service.
So I'm sure you're sure a lot offolks will be checking that out.
Yeah.
As we move to close, yeah,there's a question that I've
been asking everybody thisseason, with you know, with the
understanding that it has beenquite a year for a lot of folks
in the nonprofit sector.
What a season.
Uh so if you could give onepiece of wisdom or encouragement
(28:39):
or advice, counsel to thosenonprofit leaders, especially in
those kind of startup to smallbootstrapping their way through
right now, what would that be?
SPEAKER_00 (28:49):
You know, I'm gonna go back to my 20s and I'm gonna
say you're gonna be okay, andyour work is gonna be okay.
A lot of nonprofits are askingthemselves if they can keep the
doors open, and a lot of leadersare having to make hard staffing
decisions and reductions, andthat is hard.
(29:12):
But I want to let you know, hereI am, you know, 15 years down
the road from my grand adventureas a founder, and looking back,
going, you know, that was goodwork.
I'm proud of it.
I am okay.
And the work that I startedthere, even though we aren't
doing it, other people are.
(29:33):
And the projects that we had todrop, we very intentionally gave
them to other people who wethought were gonna outlive us.
And so that work is stillhappening.
I'm just not the one doing it.
And so I think take you're gonnabe okay, your work is gonna be
okay.
Take a little of that sort ofexistential pressure off of
(29:54):
yourself, yeah.
Um, and know that your missionis important, other people think
it's important.
Important.
It's going to be okay in theend.
SPEAKER_02 (30:03):
That's such a good reminder.
Because it's so easy to justlike to think that the entire
weight of the world is on ourshoulders.
And if we don't do it, no onewill.
And then these communities won'tget.
So it's gonna I it is gonna beokay.
I like that one.
SPEAKER_00 (30:16):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (30:17):
So good.
Well, Matthew, thank you.
This has been a fantasticconversation, I'm sure.
Very helpful for a lot of folks.
So thank you so much for sharingyour wisdom with us today.
SPEAKER_00 (30:26):
Yeah, thanks, Megan.
I'm happy to be here anytime.
SPEAKER_02 (30:29):
So again, this has been another episode of the
Nonprofit Hub Radio Podcast withmy guest Matthew Courtney, who's
the principal consultant atCourtney Consulting.
My name's Megan Spear.
This has been another episode ofthe Nonprofit Hub Radio Podcast,
and we'll see you next time.
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