December 4, 2025 • 59 mins
A stitched body, a bruised heart, and a question that won’t let go: who bears the burden for what we make? We dive into Guillermo del Toro’s Frankenstein and trace its roots from Mary Shelley’s storm-lit summer to a modern, war-shadowed tale about creation, responsibility, and the cost of love. This isn’t just another gothic retelling—it’s a story about breaking cycles, where forgiveness is the bravest experiment in the lab.
We start with the news that’s lighting up romantasy—cover reveals, special editions, and why “trend readers vs genre readers” is shaping online discourse more than craft. Then we jump into the film’s craft: Oscar Isaac as a preening, brilliant Victor; Jacob Elordi as a towering, soulful Creature who learns love the way many of us do—from stories and the rare person who is kind; and Mia Goth’s striking dual roles that knit grief, desire, and projection into Victor’s unraveling. We talk color symbolism and costume design as character psychology, from blood-red guilt to nature-drenched greens and x-ray-stitched gowns. Practical effects and built sets keep the world tactile: a ship that creaks, a laboratory that feels engineered by obsession, and camera moves that play like a rock concert.
The adaptation choices matter. Setting the tale against the Crimean War reframes Victor’s ambition as morally funded by violence, while the “brain bargain” with an arms dealer sharpens the ethics of creation. Del Toro’s ending—asking for forgiveness instead of doubling down on punishment—will spark debate among purists, but it lands with emotional clarity. We wrestle with whether this is a kissing story, and arrive at something richer: a romance of care, where monstrosity looks less like stitched skin and more like the refusal to take responsibility for what you bring into the world.
If you love romantasy, gothic cinema, adaptation theory, or just want to argue about whether color motifs can break your heart, you’ll feel right at home. Hit play, then tell us your hottest Frankenstein take, share the episode with a friend, and tap follow so you never miss what we resurrect next.
Links from the News Segment and Show:
- Kimberly Lemming did a cover reveal for her latest novel - I Punched An Alien And Now We’re In Couples Therapy
- LitJoy Crate is doing a special edition of Gail Carson Levine’s The Two Princesses of Bamarre
- Cover revealed for The Wrath Gods Reap by Abigail
- Cover revealed for Loched in Love by Jacklyn Hyde
- Gregory Maguire, author of Wicked is releasing a prequel Galinda novel
- Time released their 100 must read books of 2025
- Threads discussion on What’s Going on in Romantasy
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Instagram - @ofswordsandsoulmates
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Ashley (00:00):
Views expressed in this podcast are solely those of the
participants.
The hosts make no claim to beliterary experts, and their
opinions are exactly that.
Opinions.
All creative works discussed orrefused are the intellectual
property of the creators of saidstories and is being used under
the fair use doctrine.
Mari (00:28):
Let us be monsters together.
Hello, and welcome to Up Swordsand Soulmates, a podcast where
we read, watch, and discussromanticy stories.
I'm one of your hosts, Mari,and with me I have Kelly.
Kelly (00:38):
Hey everyone, it's Kelly.
We also have Ashley.
Ashley (00:41):
Hi guys, it's Ashley.
We also have Jonathan.
Jonathan (00:44):
What's good, everybody?
It's JP.
I'm super thankful and gratefulto be here with you guys.
Mari (00:48):
Yeah.
Jonathan (00:49):
Most wonderful time of the year.
Mari (00:50):
It's post-Thanksgiving, gearing up for the winter
festivities.
Krampus knocked.
I'm sure that's what you'retalking about.
Your most favorite, favoritewinter monster, right?
Jonathan (01:01):
I did.
I'm not gonna lie.
I did, I'll text you a picture.
I did craft a Krampus partyhat.
Mari (01:08):
Hey.
But we are not talking Krampus.
Today we're gonna be discussingGuillermo de Toro's
Frankenstein movie based on thebook Frankenstein or the Modern
Prometheus by Mary Shelley.
But first, as always, somenews.
Um, we've got some, not quiteas much, I don't think, as
normal, but we'll see.
Kimberly Lemming, who we love,did a cover reveal for her
(01:30):
latest novel.
It's called I Punched an Alienand Now We're in Couples
Therapy.
Um, we read for the podcast, weread the first of her Mead
Mishaps books, if you guysremember vividly.
Jonathan (01:42):
I do wish I hope to meet her.
Mari (01:44):
That would be amazing.
I haven't I haven't seen her doa lot of traveling anywhere
near our area, but that would begreat.
This book is set to ship outSeptember of next year,
September 18th, 2026, 19 bucks.
The cover is very reminiscentof all her covers, especially
like this is the second one inthat sci-fi alien zaniness kind
(02:06):
of series that she has.
That's different from her MeadMishap series, also zany.
I'm looking forward to that.
I basically it is if she writesit, I will read it.
We need more Kimberly Lemming.
Jonathan (02:18):
Absolutely, 1000%.
Mari (02:20):
I also have that Litjoy Crate is doing a special edition
of Gail Carson Levine's The TwoPrincesses of Bamar.
This is she's the author ofElla Enchanted.
I actually have not read thisbook, but it's 100% in the same
style, like visually andsize-wise and everything as the
Ella Enchanted special editionthat they did.
(02:41):
It's hand signed by the author,it's $29.99, and it's ready to
ship.
It's like, you know, you youyou buy it, you get it now.
I'm a kind of good lookingbook, too.
It is.
Ella Enchanted was reallypretty.
I think it was one of theprettiest books I got last year.
So I was like Was it a goodread?
I don't know yet.
I just got it.
Jonathan (02:59):
Oh, oh sorry, I'm sorry, I thought you got it.
Mari (03:01):
I've never read it, and I honestly probably won't read it
until like January.
So it's gotten to the time ofyear where I pretty much focus
solely on holiday reads.
So it's it's gotta be somethingreally I have to be really in
the mood for something differentfor it to pull me out of that.
I'm pretty much set on likeholiday reads at this point,
winter holiday reads.
We also have another coverreveal.
(03:22):
This is for The Wrath Gods Reapby Abigail Owens, which is the
conclusion of the Chris Crucibletrilogy.
So we read the first one forthe podcast, the second one came
out this year, third one iscoming out November 17th, 2026.
$29.99 right now for thehardcover.
The cover is designed by LJAnderson.
Um, it's really pretty.
(03:43):
It's got like the sprayed edgesand all that fun stuff if you
pre-order.
We have yet another coverreveal.
This is by Jaclyn Hyde.
It's for book four of herMonster Bay series.
Bay B-A-E.
This one is called Locked inLove.
It releases February 25th,2026.
So the first one of this is avampire, and the audiobook has a
(04:07):
Romanian accent, so it isstraight up Dracula.
Like every stereotype ofDracula you can think of as the
main male character vampirecharacter.
The second book is a werewolfwho also has like an accent.
The third one doesn't have anaudiobook out yet.
It's the Frankensteincharacter, but he's described as
having like a British accent.
(04:27):
And so this one is Scottish.
So I'm loving how every one ofthe every one of the books has
different accent and like a vibeto it.
Jonathan (04:38):
So is this a is this a this is a more curvy girl style
book?
I'm assuming I'm looking at it.
Mari (04:44):
Uh Locked in Love looks like it from the cover.
I don't know.
I don't know anything about thethe plot other than I don't
think it's a spoiler when youhave an aquatic looking manned
creature and it's called Lockedin Love.
I'm I'm assuming he's a LochNess monster, but I I I don't
know anything beyond that.
Jonathan (05:03):
So he did a lot of sit-ups.
One, two, three, four, five,six, seven, eight abs.
All the abs.
Mari (05:10):
I guess, you know, with immortality, you have lots of
time uh for all the sit-ups.
Jonathan (05:15):
Yeah, I just have the one ab.
I have two.
If I bent over and have myshoes, then I have two abs.
But I'm not sure my abs aresupposed to touch.
Mari (05:22):
My abs are there.
They're very well insulated.
Jonathan (05:25):
We're built for winter.
Mari (05:26):
Yes.
Very insulated.
Sorry, that took a second.
unknown (05:30):
Sorry.
Mari (05:31):
I was not ready for that joke.
But I I really like the theseare, I believe, all the books
that Jaclyn Hyde has written,but I really like the writing
style.
It's rom-commie.
They're not like particularlysuper serious.
They're not like they have afull-fledged story.
The characters seem very fullyfleshed out.
They all kind of you have someoverlap where like some of the
(05:54):
other characters are mentionedin the further books.
Yeah, I I've enjoyed readingthis series a good bit.
She will be at MasereticaBookCon in May.
And I'm looking forward to tomeeting her.
All right.
Next bit of news we have isthat Gregory McGuire, author of
Wicked, that we talked aboutlast episode and the whole
(06:14):
Wicked series, is releasing ananother prequel.
So there's one prequel that'scalled Elfie.
That's the story of Alphabet asa as a child.
This seek this prequel that'scoming out is called Gelinda,
and it's Gelinda's storyline.
It's coming out in fall of2026.
Jonathan (06:30):
Looking forward to that too.
Mari (06:31):
Yeah, I still have not read Elfie.
So I'm I'm needing to work myway up through them.
Jonathan (06:35):
Yeah, I just that's gonna be next on my list.
For that's probably one of thefirst books I'll read in 2026.
But I think that's a goodthing.
Also a pretty book, by the way.
Ashley (06:42):
Yeah.
Jonathan (06:42):
It is a delightfully Elfie, I mean.
Yeah.
I did I did was able to snagthat one this weekend.
Mari (06:48):
Yeah, so I need to I need to get through those all in good
time.
So many books.
Not enough time.
Speaking of, Time magazinereleased their 100 must-read
books of 2025.
I will say, from what I couldtell of the fiction ones,
because they're cat, yeah, theyhaven't you can separate them
out by fiction and non-fiction.
Of the fiction ones, there'sonly one that I thought might be
(07:12):
that that's romancy that Icould tell.
And that's Catabasis,Carabasis.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
I think that's the which Ihave.
I have the book.
I just haven't read it.
Also a pretty book.
Yeah, also a very pretty book.
And I like the author.
I've read other things by her,but I've not read that one.
So most of the rest of thefiction books that I just kind
of sampled through to kind ofget a vibe for them, a lot of
(07:34):
them I had never heard of.
I think two or three I hadDNF'd, but a lot of them were
like very, I don't know what theword is.
Fiction only in the mostspeculative of sense, where it's
like very could be a truestory.
There was a lot of death andcancer and family members with
cancer and that kind of stuff.
And I'm just like a lot ofdepressing sounding books, to be
(07:56):
honest.
Yeah, but I think that I Idon't think I've read any of
them.
I don't think I've finished anyof the ones that are in that
100 must-read books of 2025.
Any stand out to you guys?
Jonathan (08:07):
No, not to me.
Ashley (08:08):
I'm not gonna lie, I didn't do my homework and I
didn't see the list.
I suck.
Mari (08:14):
Um no, I sent it out just before we we started recording.
It is not you, it is me.
I suck.
Ashley (08:19):
Take a gander really quickly.
I don't even recognize any ofthese titles.
I know.
Questioning who who made thislist.
Yeah, yeah.
This isn't even a Goodreadslist.
No.
I'd like to know more about SkyDaddy, but that's about it.
I'm not impressed with thislist.
Mari (08:35):
Yeah, yeah.
That's kind of my that was kindof my thought on it.
I went through it and I'm justlike, oh, okay, that's fine.
But anyways, it exists, it's athing.
The last little thing I haveisn't really news, more I guess
kind of news, a little bitdiscussion thing.
So Sarah from Hissin andKissing sent me the a link to
this.
Um, and I thought it wasinteresting.
It's a it's a threads post byAya Winter, who's an author, and
(08:59):
it's called What's ActuallyGoing On in Romancy Right Now?
In parentheses, a calm,grounded take, not rage bait,
not a clap back, just clarity.
And she basically goes on tosay that a lot of the chaos
happening in romancy right now,quote, isn't about the books.
It's about trend readershipversus genre readership.
And those are not the samethings.
(09:20):
She says that like Avatar andFourth Wing created a wave, not
a genre, and that these booksbrought new readers into
fantasy, which is good, but thattheir gateway series, not genre
blueprints, those are herwords.
And she's this is her what shewas saying is that quote, when
readers only engage with theviral wave and not the broader
(09:40):
genre, they naturally expect thesame pacing, the same romance
to plot structure, the samecharacter archetypes, the same
emotional beats, the samespecial girl and brooding guy
dynamic, the same digestivalworld building.
So when a book doesn't followthat formula, it gets labeled as
bad writing, problematic, slow,etc.
It's not a critique, it'salgorithm-shaped expectation.
She says online discourse isbeing driven by content cycles,
(10:02):
not craft.
And basically that when writerstry to write to that, you get
what's he said, quote, if everywriter followed these quote
rules, we'd end up with the samebeige algorithm-approved book
over and over again.
The friction is between trendreaders and genre readers, not
between readers and writers.
And the different expectationsthat trend readers versus genre
(10:23):
readers want, that neither groupis wrong, and that they
encourage different things.
But basically that we all needto be more encouraging of
different types of books in ourgenre, um, rather than labeling
something as bad just becauseit's not what we expect of the
one book that's popular or theone book that we like best in
that genre.
I thought it was an interestingpoint, interesting discussion.
Ashley (10:47):
My initial feeling on hearing you speak of this topic
was that of this particularwriter got a bad review or has a
friend that did and felt sometype of way about it.
I mean, art is subjective,right?
And I think there are somebooks that just have tones that
we like and tones that we don't.
And you we just so we just wentto the book con, right, just a
(11:10):
couple months ago, and we foundthat very lovely vendor with the
very lovely jewelry, and shevery highly recommended this one
book.
Remember, she like activelydownloaded it on our phones for
us.
I couldn't, and she raved aboutit.
It was like like it was throneof glass, right?
Like like high tier.
I couldn't get through threechapters.
Mari (11:29):
No, me either.
Ashley (11:30):
So I mean, it's not that the book was bad, it just it
wasn't for us.
And so I think maybe having aconversation with some of these
readers who can be veryprotective of the things that
they love, right?
Very opinionated, very, verystrongly passionate about things
that sometimes they react verypoorly to if they venture beyond
that author.
Speaker 5 (11:50):
Yeah.
Ashley (11:51):
But I don't, yeah, I don't, I think it's more about
educating for the people who area little overzealous than it is
about us broadening her ourhorizons.
I think the true I think thereaders are doing that.
And I think I think it'sbecause of social media like
TikTok and Instagram where I'vebeen able to broaden my horizons
and venture into new authorsand different series so that I'm
(12:14):
not just going down this onepath of Fourth Wing and Sarah J.
Mass.
Mari (12:19):
Yeah.
Ashley (12:19):
So I don't know.
I think that article to me isrubbing me slightly wrong
because it's it's going towardsone very particular narrative.
I think the people who are verypassionate about the reading
that they're doing are exploringother avenues and opening up
their minds to other authors.
Mari (12:35):
Yeah, I mean, I think it's I think the way I took it is
that it I took it from theviewpoint of like how you talk
about how how we should talkabout books that maybe we don't
a hundred percent like.
You know, like the whole ideaof like maybe a book isn't for
us, that doesn't mean it'sautomatically a bad book.
And I don't think any of usdoes that.
I don't think any of us islike, oh, this is a bad book
just because I didn't like it,you know.
(12:57):
But there are people who arethat way in all genres, not just
romanticity, let me say that,and not just readers, movie
critics, you know, fans, etc.
That just because somethingisn't for you, or it's not maybe
the the thing that you may becraving or liking at this point
in your life doesn't make itautomatically bad.
(13:17):
You know, that you you ought tobe able to critique a thing or
talk about a thing without justlabeling it bad or good, you
know?
Ashley (13:26):
I also feel like that can translate into a lot of
things.
Mari (13:28):
Yeah, I agree.
Currently.
I agree.
Not just books, not just books.
Yeah.
Yes, 100%.
I agree.
Like one of the like this waslike an eight-part post on
threads, but one of the partsshe said was, quote, romanticy
is not one monolith, fantasy isnot one monolith, romance is not
one monolith.
You're allowed to dislike astory.
(13:49):
You're not obligated to declareit morally bankrupt, badly
written, or fandom taboo justbecause it didn't hit the trend
reader formula.
Reading widely is how you learnwhat you love.
End quote.
Jonathan (14:00):
It's interesting.
So is she or is this personupset that that readers, I
guess, are that there's now likethis mainstream romancy vibe?
Mari (14:12):
I don't I don't think the person is upset.
It didn't come across as a likean emotionally charged post.
I think they were likeanalyzing what's happening in
the romancy genre right now,because the romancey genre is a
very popular, very financiallyviable genre right now.
It's exploding out, you know,which is great.
This is how we get moreauthors, this is how we get more
(14:34):
ideas, more you know,sub-genres and all that.
And so I think it was just heranalysis of what's happening.
I don't think she I don't feellike she was angry about any one
thing.
I thought I I felt like it wasjust like an analysis of what's
going on.
Interesting.
Jonathan (14:48):
The yeah, I mean, to each to each zone, we all we all
like odd, odd things.
Um I think even in this, likeeven in the same podcast, like
like my what I engage with moreis uh is significantly different
than what you engage with mostoften.
Mari (15:08):
Yeah, which is different than what Kelly likes and which
is different than what Ashlikes.
Jonathan (15:12):
So Yeah.
Mari (15:13):
Which is it is fine.
Like we should all be able tolike what we like and it be
okay.
Jonathan (15:19):
Are people choosing sides?
Are people getting upset?
Like, no, no, no.
I don't think so.
Mari (15:23):
I like I don't think this is a I don't think this was like
a hot, hot take or anythinglike that.
I think it was just her take onsome of what is happening in
the in the romantic genre, whichyou know, anytime something
becomes like a a bubble or likebecomes a big thing that's
growing, there's people who aregonna analyze it and critique it
(15:44):
for whatever reason and youknow, whatever.
I don't know.
Maybe she was coming at it morefrom the writer standpoint.
I was thinking of it more fromthe like what we do where we
just talk about the books andstuff.
Yeah.
I thought it was interesting.
Jonathan (15:55):
Yeah, I mean it's I'd I'd like to get more context
from from her.
Like it's a lot, it's it's alot of bullet points in the
posts.
And you're right, it is likeso.
The other thing is she's she'smaking a a statement in on a
short format social media.
Maybe there's room for a largerarticle or even like a video
where she could speak to herpoints a little more with a
(16:19):
little more clarity.
Mari (16:21):
And maybe she has, I don't know.
I don't follow this, I haven'tread anything by this writer.
I don't follow her on likeInstagram or TikTok or anything.
Maybe she has a a longer formversion of it.
I don't know.
This was, I think, postedfairly recently, so maybe she
doesn't have one yet and she'sworking on it.
Like this was posted a day ago,so I think it's still kind of
gelling, you know?
Jonathan (16:41):
Yeah.
Let's call her up.
Let's get her on a show.
Mari (16:43):
Yeah, yeah.
All right.
Any other new stuff?
Jonathan (16:46):
I don't think I have any anything on my end.
How about you, Ash?
Ashley (16:50):
I tend to send Mari everything.
You do.
Yeah.
And if I've missed anything,please let me know.
That is just relativelyinteresting.
I tend to send to her.
I don't even know that I do myown vetting, I'm not gonna lie.
I think the only oh, the thingI sent you this morning, the Lee
Bardugo extension of the sixshe's continuing the Six of
Crows series.
Mari (17:10):
Yeah, it's as a it's a short story.
So we we vaguely talked aboutthis when she first announced
it, but I don't think she had atitle released when we first
talked about it.
So the title, it's it's at thetime that we talked about it, it
was just gonna be like a shortstory, you know, continuation
Six of Crows short story, but ithas a title.
(17:30):
It's gonna be called Six ofCrows, A Darker Shore, Letters
from Ketterdam.
It's gonna be released June30th, 2026.
It's 64 pages, so very short.
But still, I want it.
I will read it.
I am I am looking forward toit.
So I will probably I think Imessaged you this, but yeah, I
will probably use that as amotivational tool to maybe do a
(17:54):
little reread of some of the thebooks in that series because I
did really enjoy how it endedand where it came to as a
series.
Ashley (18:03):
So you always rave about the Six of Crows series.
Mari (18:06):
I really need to try that one.
Ashley (18:08):
I couldn't get into the other one.
Mari (18:10):
Yeah, the Shadow and Bone Grueverse.
Like I understand it had tohappen to kind of start the
world, but it's definitely notthe one that draws me the most.
Like it's definitely all theside people is was the better,
was the more compellingstorytelling for me, is what
what what drew my attention.
So any other news bits?
That's all I got.
Okay.
(18:31):
So why we chose this movie?
I think just because we wantedto.
It's our show, and it's what wewanted to do.
There wasn't any real hardreason other than the movie just
came out and it's all fresh,and I've watched it a billion
times.
Jonathan (18:46):
So well, I should say we should add this.
You part of why we chose thisis because we know it lights you
up, Mari.
Mari (18:53):
Yeah.
Jonathan (18:54):
And that's a and that's okay.
We want to lean into some ofthe things that you like too.
And this is like this is Ithink this is cool for you.
I love it.
Mari (19:02):
I love Frankenstein, I love Guillermo del Toro.
Put them together, and I was Iwas very excited about this
movie coming out, but I was alsoanxious before it came out
because last year, around thistime of year, December of 2024,
I was really excited aboutNosferatu coming out.
And I ended up not likingNosferatu.
(19:24):
I know that's kind of I know alot of people love it.
That's fine.
I'm not gonna dish dish youknow diss on anybody who likes
it.
It just didn't do it for me, tothe point where I dragged poor
Kelly to the movies.
Kelly hates going to themovies.
I dragged him to the movies,and in the middle of the movie,
I turned to him and I'm like,I'm so sorry.
Once again, Kelly, I'm sosorry.
So this year, Giamala Totoreleased Frankenstein.
(19:48):
So let's talk about it.
So it was released August 30th,2025, in Venice at the 82nd
Venice International FilmFestival, and then October 17th,
2025, in US theaters, and thenfinally November 7th, 2025 on
Netflix.
So the synopsis is that thestory follows the life of
Frankenstein, an egotisticalscientist whose experiment in
(20:11):
creating new life results indangerous consequences.
Simple and to the point.
So let me give a little bit ofbackground here and step in if
you have questions, etc.
So it was produced, written,and directed by Guillermo del
Toro based on the 1818 novel byMary Shelley.
So movie based on a book.
(20:32):
Mary Shelley OG Goth Girl.
Her and Percy Byshelleyallegedly consummated the
relationship for the first timein a cemetery where they would
secretly meet.
Ashley (20:42):
On top of her mother's grave or something, wasn't it?
Mari (20:45):
Something like that, yes.
Something like that.
Like I don't know how much hisscandalous stuff has built up
over the years.
You know, it's hard to parsethat out, but I yeah.
And then after she died, herfamily found a copy of a poem
written by her husband by Percyby Shelley that she had wrapped
around some of his ashes and theremains of his heart that she
kept after he died.
Jonathan (21:04):
Well, that's interesting.
Mari (21:06):
Not at all creepy, guys.
Not at all.
Ashley (21:10):
So the goth lore is deep, deep with her.
I don't even know if that'sjust goth.
Some of that treadsdifferently.
Obsession.
No, no, that's no.
Jonathan (21:23):
Well, I mean, so I think maybe it's it it could
just be love.
I mean, it could just bepassion, right?
I mean, what happened backthen?
Like what what what what wouldhappen to your loved ones when
they passed?
Ashley (21:39):
Oh no, I was talking about the having sex in a
cemetery part.
Jonathan (21:43):
Oh, I think we're talking about having this heart
hanging out.
Mari (21:46):
I mean, I don't know if this is I guess to add more to
the story, she was really young.
So we're talking about a lot oflike teenage hormones happening
and rebelliousness and etcetera.
Like, I believe at the time hewas married to someone else at
the time they were meeting up.
So it was like illicit, youknow, meetups in the cemetery.
Get a girl.
Yeah, yeah.
So yeah.
Jonathan (22:07):
Who would go look in the cemetery?
You know what I mean?
Mari (22:09):
Right.
Right.
They're like, no one's gonna belooking.
So not wrong.
Yeah.
That's a good point.
So then they did they'd beentogether, they had a child, a
baby girl who was born prematureand ended up passing away.
All this before she even turned19.
So I mean, all this happenedvery young.
So then the summer of 1816,after the the baby died, Mary
(22:30):
Shelley and Percy went to summerin in Geneva with Lord Byron
and John William Polidori.
And this was the setting forthe birth of Frankenstein.
So setting the mood, 1816 wasknown the summer of 1816 was
known as the summer, the yearwithout a summer, because there
was this big volcanic eruptionin what is now Indonesia, and it
(22:53):
caused like the summer to becold.
So there were like cropfailures, there was major food
shortages, all like in thenorthern hemisphere.
Jonathan (23:02):
Like a nuclear winter?
Mari (23:04):
I don't I don't think it was that bad, but it was
definitely unusual, especiallywhen you think about I don't
know how much of that theyunderstood at the time.
You know what I mean?
Um, so you maybe don't knowwhat's going on.
You don't have Google, youdon't have the internet, just
all of a sudden summer's not assummer as it was.
Yeah, it was it was aninteresting time.
And I don't remember Kelly,you're better at trivia and
(23:26):
dates and stuff.
Do you guys remember SebastianNothwell when he remembered in
his book Oak King Holly King, hetalked about a year where like
the summer didn't come?
Was it the same year?
Like, was it the same year thathe was talking about?
Was that the same time period?
Do you remember?
Jonathan (23:41):
After just Googling like like Ash Cloud Winter, like
one prominent one pops up, likea volcanic winter of 536.
I'm sure there were probablymultiples, yeah.
Yeah, okay.
It's a good way to like expressthat though, especially like in
that time, because that's likeit's when you talk about like
(24:02):
oak oak king and Holly King,those are those those might be
like those are pagan like uhelements.
I don't know.
Mari (24:08):
Yeah, Oak King, Holly King.
I mean, that was the name of ofSebastian's Nottles book, but
also it's an older story.
I'm not super familiar with it.
I don't know what it dates backto, like I don't know which
tradition.
Like I don't know if it'sCeltic.
I I don't know, but it's anolder story.
It's like a like a folk tale orlike a fairy tale.
I know that it's an old one.
(24:29):
And then, of course, you know,he did his his version of it.
But back to Frankenstein.
So you have Mary Shelley in herhubby, and then you have Lord
Byron, who was like this bad boyrock star of his time.
He was like bi or pan sexual,just depending.
He was had a lot of influencethat has continued into modern
(24:52):
day culture and pop culture.
The the term the Byronic herobasically comes from him.
It's an idealized but flawedcharacter whose attributes
include great talent, greatpassion, a distaste for society
and social institutions, a lackof respect for rank and
privilege, although possessingbut possessing both, being
thwarted in love by socialconstraint or death, rebellion,
(25:14):
exile, an unsavory secret past,arrogance, overconfidence, or
lack of foresight, andultimately a self-destructive
manner, which is seen in a lotof literature.
I would say it's like theproto, almost grumpy sunshine.
It's the grumpy one in someways.
It's also kind of like anenemies to lovers, like the
beginning of all that, or atleast contributing towards that.
(25:36):
So you have him, and then youhave John William Polidori, who
is credited as the creator ofthe vampire genre, um, because
he wrote the first modernvampire novel called The Vampire
um that summer.
As of the same same same summerthat they wrote Frankenstein,
he wrote that, and his vampirecharacter is widely believed to
(25:57):
be based off of Lord Byron.
So the vampire tropes that wehave in modern like Western
culture are are Lord Byron.
Ashley (26:04):
Oh.
Mari (26:05):
So you have that.
That's how Frankenstein, thebook, got started.
Then we have Guillermo Latoro,who's like kid grew up in
Mexico, he's Mexican, he was allabout the weird, freaky things,
he liked the scary movies, andhe had been a fan of
Frankenstein for like 50 years,but he'd been trying to make the
Frankenstein movie specificallyfor like 20 years.
(26:27):
This was like his his passionproject thing.
Formerly, like pre-productiondidn't start till 2008, and he
went through a lot of differentFrankensteins.
Uh he went through differentscripts and different ideas, but
also a lot of different peoplethat would play his
Frankenstein.
So originally he thought it wasgonna be Doug Jones who did uh
the creature in the shape of thewater, and he was also the fawn
(26:48):
in The Labyrinth?
Kelly (26:50):
Pan's Labyrinth.
Mari (26:51):
Pan's Labyrinth, thank you.
I was like the Fawn'sLabyrinth.
Pan's Labyrinth.
Yeah, he's done, he was what,Abe Sapien in the Hellboy
movies?
Kelly (26:58):
Correct.
Mari (26:58):
He was he's he's in Star Trek.
He's been in a bunch of things.
One point it was gonna be him,and then more recently it was
gonna be Andrew Garfield.
Jonathan (27:07):
Sasha.
Mari (27:08):
What?
Yes, as as the creature inFrancasign.
And then like nine weeks beforethey started filming, it it
changed.
I don't know, I haven't beenable to find anything that says
why it changed, but it changed.
I don't know if Andrew Garfieldpulled out if he had other
arrangement, you know, otherthings he had to do.
I don't know.
But then Jacob Alradi came inand became the creature that we
got in the final movie.
I mean, from a heightperspective, right?
(27:32):
Jacob was a good call.
Although I guess there's a lotyou can play with with
perspective and stuff to makeyou know a character look
taller, but yeah, yeah.
So Guillermo Toro finally gothis Frankenstein.
He said it in the Crimean War,which was like in the 1850s.
So that's like the setting forthis version of Frankenstein
(27:52):
that we see.
So you have this war setting,which is really common in a lot
of Guillermo del Toro's moviesand stories.
He casts Oscar Isaacs as VictorFrankenstein, he casts Jacob
Alati as the creatureeventually, and then Mia Gough
and Christopher Waltz were theother big ones.
And it's funny because he, ifyou watch some of the
documentaries and things, hetalks about his idea of Victor
(28:15):
Frankenstein was like an uh anartist or like a rock star, like
a painter or a rock star.
And so that's what he wantedOscar Isaac to like portray when
he was Frankenstein, which Ithought was interesting.
And the music was done byAlexander de Plot, who did the
music for the Grand BudapestHotel and won won an Academy
Award for it, and for The Shapeof Water.
(28:35):
I really liked the music.
I don't remember if I don'tthink I maybe noticed the music
as much the first time I watchedit, but definitely the second
and third time the music camethrough as the score came
through as like really welldone.
Ashley (28:46):
I think I'd have I don't think that registered with me
on the first watch.
Mari (28:50):
I think I tend to I think I tend to the the score tends to
come up for me on rewatches.
Because I remember when werewatched The Mummy, I thought
about the score a lot too.
Like it really like came out tome.
I guess because I wasn't as asdistracted by all the visuals
because like Guillermo Lotoro'smovies are usually super
visually in Oh yeah.
No, there was a lot to witnessin this movie.
(29:12):
Like I I was reading a aninterview book, a journalist
that interviewed him, andGuillermo Toro said, like people
talk about eye candy and howhis movies and stuff, he doesn't
want it to be eye candy, hewants it to be eye protein.
Like a hearty meal for youreyes.
Ashley (29:28):
Bro, that's the biggest dad joke ever, my dude.
Yeah, and it it definitely islike it's he's not no, you know
what?
He delivered.
I'm not even mad.
I'm only slightly mad at thedad joke, but I'm not really eye
protein.
He delivered, yeah, yeah.
Mari (29:43):
It's it's almost impossible to really watch a
Guillermo Litoro movie and likehave your eyes be somewhere
else, like be on your phone orwhatever.
You're just not you're notgetting it.
Yeah, so much is conveyedvisually.
And he's all about practicaleffects and practical sets,
which makes everything look andfeel.
More real because it it is likethe ship in the movie.
(30:04):
They built the ship.
It was so big they couldn'tbuild it in a studio, they like
built it out in a parking lot.
I was gonna say that doesn'tsound very practical.
Yeah.
Okay.
Not as opposed to like throwingit to CGI.
You know, you'd like watch someof these movies like from the
90s, early 2000s, and thatseemed kind of cool at the time,
and you go back and watch inthe CGI and the special effects
look real bad.
(30:24):
Real bad.
But then you watch some stuffthat had practical effects, like
a never-ending story or youknow, labyrinth or whatever, and
it holds up the test of timebecause you're not relying on
the computer wizardry, you'rerelying on real things, so your
your eye doesn't have to be astricked and it believes more of
(30:45):
the fantasy.
All right.
Jonathan (30:47):
Shout out Jim Henson.
Mari (30:48):
I love Jim Henson 100%.
Also, Guillermo Toto did theynot not he.
I know there were a billion,there were a bunch of artists
who did this.
I don't know who all did allthe sets and stuff, but they did
the laboratory, like where thecreature was created, where
where it was born.
That was fully built out, likethose giant batteries, the giant
(31:11):
cross, like all that stuff waslike fully fledged, the giant
Medusa coin in the back.
Ashley (31:16):
I hope he's making a part two then, because this
doesn't sound very practical orsound mildly wasteful.
Yeah.
unknown (31:23):
Yeah.
Jonathan (31:23):
Well, the the they were just like the two major,
like, or what I perceived as twomajor sets would be like the
the manor and then the like theshack, right?
And it was or what was thatlike a mill that he was kind of
camped out in?
Mari (31:42):
I think it was some part of a mill, yeah.
Jonathan (31:43):
Yeah.
Like one was very ornate andelaborate.
Yeah, one was very basic.
And it was that's practical,but not the lab.
Um, I think I I think Ash yougotta let go of the I don't
think I can.
Practical in this means likereal, right?
Like it was it it wasn't itwasn't the special effect, as
(32:04):
opposed to special effects.
Correct, yeah.
I mean it'd all be specialeffects, but one one would be
like more computer generatedeffect versus practical effects.
Mari (32:16):
Right.
Kelly (32:16):
So like this thing was like, yeah, they built the ship,
you know, and had a CGI-ishbackground type thing, but the
ship was real when the monsterhit somebody and the the person
he hit flew across the ship andyou know, off the edge of the
ship, they had somebody on wiresand actually flew across when
(32:37):
got hit, they got hit instead ofit being just completely CGI.
Mari (32:40):
Yeah.
And actually, even likeobviously there was CGI, you
know, to make the scenery in theArctic things, but also they
had these huge like cranes thatwould like light everything up
to do all the lighting.
So in addition to like havingthe actors having the ship, you
had to like negotiate all thesecranes with cameras and lights
(33:01):
and like reflectors to geteverything to be lit up just
right.
And for not as much for theship scenes, but for the scenes
in in the laboratory, Guillaumekept describing the the way that
the cameras moved andeverything, like was a rock
concert.
So there was like a lot ofmovement in the cameras when
they filmed.
So all that had to be, you hadto choreograph with the camera
(33:23):
as well as with the actors, aswell as around these practical
effects.
It was interesting.
And like there was even a partwhere they I watched, so there's
a there's a documentary onNetflix that's called, I forget
what it's called, but it'sbasically like the the making of
Frankenstein.
And it's like a little20-minute documentary about some
of the different effects andthe different things that went
into making it.
And they talked about there wasa a crew of artists that did
(33:46):
the Frankenstein's laboratoryfrom the outside the tower.
They did like a to scaleminiature of it.
A miniature was like still 30feet tall.
And that's what they blew up inthe scene where like it it
blows up and falls.
So they did that as opposed toit being like a total CGI of of
the explosion to make it morerealistic.
Jonathan (34:07):
Yeah.
And Ashley, when they blew,when they I like as a practical
effect, when they took outOscar's leg like that.
How did you I mean, like, didyou see that scene, Ash?
And now he's Oscar is withoutthat leg.
He gave it all for that It'sall very practical.
Very practical.
No, that was that was agruesome scene.
Ashley (34:26):
It was very gruesome.
Jonathan (34:27):
Like it was I I feel like that was very well done.
Ashley (34:30):
Extremely top-tier casting, by the way, besides
Jacob, like Oscar Isaac.
The second I saw Oscar, I waslike, my I'm in.
Take my money.
Jonathan (34:41):
Okay.
I mean Oscar, I think Oscar dida really good job of being of
making me uncomfortable in thebeginning, especially when it
was like, what's going on withyour brother's fiance?
And then but I I think the notthe very end of it, but like the
moments leading up to to theend, like after he had healed
(35:03):
his leg, I thought that was kindof meh, Oscar.
Like it just it was almostcomic.
Ashley (35:10):
Wasn't consistent Oscar for you?
Jonathan (35:12):
It wasn't consistent Oscar.
Ashley (35:13):
Speak for yourself.
I loved him.
Jonathan (35:15):
He did a spectacular job.
Mari (35:17):
For the most part, this was definitely Guillermo del
Toro's version of Frankenstein.
So it's not like 100% accurateto the book, which nothing would
be unless you're doing like amini-series that's you know,
word for word.
But it's his adaptation of it,it's his vibes of Frankenstein.
For example, like this is theonly version of Frankenstein
(35:38):
I've seen or read whereElizabeth Frankenstein is the
fiance of Victor Frankenstein'sbrother.
Oh.
That's not original.
If I'm remembering right,Kelly, have you read
Frankenstein?
Kelly (35:50):
Yes.
Mari (35:53):
She was like a pseudo-cousin to Victor
Frankenstein, like she grew upin the same household, but I
don't think she was actuallyrelated.
Like I think she was adopted,and Victor Frankenstein's mother
kind of hoped that that she andhe would get married.
They were being raised togetherfor like an arranged marriage,
so to speak, but they weren'tactually related.
But she also wasn't engaged toanybody else.
Kelly (36:15):
Right.
She was basically adopted orpseudo-adopted by Victor's
family.
Mari (36:20):
Which is interesting, adding her as like so in in the
book, William Frankenstein, likeyou know, uh Victor
Frankenstein's little brother,is way younger.
He's like five years old, uh,and he's not much of a
character.
Like, spoilers anybody whohasn't read the eight you know
the 1800 book, it he dies likevery early on.
Ashley (36:39):
I was gonna say, is there like a trauma then?
Like, is does his mom not diein the Oh, the mom dies too.
Mari (36:44):
Like everybody dies just about there's so much trauma.
There's a lot of trauma.
I think that Guillermo Torotakes the trauma.
Like, as far as the if I had togo with the theme for this
movie, it would be theintergenerational trauma and
like trying to break from it orat least recognize it.
Because like VictorFrankenstein's father treats him
a certain way, abuses him acertain way, raises him a
(37:06):
certain way.
And then when VictorFrankenstein creates this
creature, he doesn't know whatto do with him once he's finally
created it.
He's sitting like that sceneafter after he gives the
creature life, and then he'ssitting on the stairs, like, I'm
lost now, I have no idea whatto do.
Sure.
And then when he's trying tolike train the creature or teach
the creature, he ends up doingthe same things his father did.
(37:28):
He would hit the creature, hewould, you know, beat him, he
would berate him.
And then the the ending is is100% Guillermo del Toro.
Like it's not in the originalbook where like the where Victor
Frankenstein asks the creaturefor forgiveness and the creature
gives him forgiveness, thebreaking of like the
intergenerational trauma.
That's not in the book, but itwas a beautiful message.
(37:50):
Yeah, very Hollywood.
Yeah, it's also very Guillermodel Toro.
Like he said something aboutlike if he had if he had been
able to do this 20 years ago, itwould have been a dialogue
between him and his father.
But now that he has grown kids,he feels like the movie was a
dialogue between him and hisfather and his kids and him, you
know.
Perspective, yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
So he there's a quote that Iran across, uh, an interview
(38:14):
somebody did of Guillermo Lotoroand and uh talking about the
differences between his versionof Frankenstein in the original
and the other versions ofFrankenstein movies that have
come before him.
And he said, quote, uhadaptation or adapting is like
marrying a widow.
You gotta respect the husband'smemory, but you gotta get it
on.
Ashley (38:32):
He's so spicy.
Mari (38:33):
He really is.
Ashley (38:34):
He's got jokes.
Mari (38:36):
Yeah, I yeah, yeah.
Skipping over, I don't want toskip over the costume design for
this movie.
So Kate Hawley did the costumedesign, and she had worked with
him before, with Guillermo deToro before on Crimson Peak and
Pacific Rim.
And she was introduced toGuillermo de Toro by Peter
Jackson.
And I've seen several of likeinterviews with her of how they
(38:58):
came about with the looks forthe different characters and how
it it further cemented theirpersonalities.
Like Victor Frankenstein isthis dandy and this rock star
and this artist, and the waythey dressed him, where he was
like kind of punk for his time.
Like he had these plaid pants,he had this weird-shaped hat.
Like he was not what weconsider punk or rock star now,
(39:20):
but he was definitely stood outfor the time.
Ashley (39:23):
Right.
Mari (39:23):
And especially like at the beginning where he didn't have
as much money towards the end,where he was being funded by the
weapons dealer and he had moremoney, it got his clothing got
like more and more elaborate.
And then Elizabeth was supposedto be like nature, the power of
nature, and how she wasobsessed with insects and
whatnot.
So, like the patterns that theyused on her dress, they took
(39:45):
like pictures of blood cells andoverlaid them over like
patterns of malachite.
And like for the green dressthat she has was those weird
round splotches, that's whatthat is.
And then she's wearing thislike blue-green dress.
They the patterns that theyuse, the pattern you've seen
that is they used x-rays andthey like layered it into the
tull of the dress.
Wow.
Yeah, like the details arereally interesting.
(40:08):
Yeah, no, I had no idea.
And then like the the bridedress where she's got the white
dress, the the corset that goesover it, the white corset that
goes over it, is mimics the ribcage, which you can especially
tell as the blood soaks thedress and the ribcage stands
out.
And then her sleeves with theribbon on them is is like an
(40:31):
homage to the old black andwhite, like universal
Frankenstein bride scene whereshe's got the ribbons on her on
her arms.
That dress was spectacular.
It was it was a pretty dress,but then when it got like all
bloody and the details of itreally stood out, it was just
like that was amazing design.
You thought that through.
Yeah.
That lady, that lady did herjob.
(40:52):
Yeah, yeah.
Very, very well done.
And part of that was guided bylike she does a lot of
historical stuff, so she knowslike the the shapes that things
are supposed to be for thatperiod, and like ways to make
things look of that period.
But like apparently GuillermoToto was very much like, I don't
want this to be a DickensVictorian thing.
(41:12):
No, I don't want it to be allblack hats and boring colors.
And so she brought in all thesepatterns and like bright
colors, like you know,Elizabeth's like bright yellow
bonnet and her her weird likeblue feathers and stuff that she
wore the in the hair, like thefirst time that she's met, those
were like they were that shapewas in in that time.
(41:33):
That was like the the the inhairstyle of the time with these
weird, like weird shapes aroundthe sides of your uh the sides
of your head.
And then that costuming bringsin, along with some of the the
other scene elements, color.
Like there's a lot of colorbeing a big thing throughout the
movie, which Guillermo de Toroalso did this on Crimson Peak.
So like in Frankenstein, likeat the beginning, where like the
(41:57):
first half of the story is thecreator's viewpoint, you know,
Victor Frankenstein's viewviewpoint, and then the second
half is the creature'sviewpoint.
So the first half it's like hischildhood is very black and
white and red.
And then red is like blood, andit's like the mother.
And so then his the the the redgets transferred from the mom
when she dies to him, and hestarts wearing that little red
(42:18):
scarf as a kid.
And then as an adult, he's gotthe the blood on his hands with
the red gloves, and then there'slike the red bed, and then all
his his nightmares of the thered angel or whatever.
That was the only time he sawred.
And then like the dark blueswere Christopher Walt's
character, Victor Frankenstein'sfather's character, William
(42:39):
Frankenstein, those were likedark navy blues, and these like
patriarchal figures.
And then Elizabeth Frankensteinwas all in the greens.
She brought like the greens andthe nature.
The nature, yeah.
Yeah, into it.
And I didn't catch this tillafter the second time I watched
the movie.
Mia Goth plays both ElizabethFrankenstein and Victor
(43:01):
Frankenstein's mother.
I didn't, I did not catch that.
Nobody did.
It was like they gave hereyebrows and she was a
completely different person.
I was like, that's not the sameperson.
Um that looked, I'm like, ohwait, it is okay.
Ashley (43:12):
Silly human.
Yeah.
Jonathan (43:14):
I I you know what I didn't like in terms of like
costume or or makeup.
I'm not I'm not entirely sure.
I I I enjoyed the look of thecreature.
Mari (43:22):
I thought it was fantastic.
I thought it was really goodtoo.
The patchwork of it all.
Jonathan (43:27):
Because I was it was it just didn't land with me.
Mari (43:30):
It was supposed to be two things.
It was supposed to berepresentative of stained glass.
Um yeah.
But also, like Guillermo Torosaid he has said in several
interviews of his monstercreations.
Every time he creates amonster, like whether it's Ape
Sapien, whether it's Hellboy,whether it's the the shape of
the water creature, he wants toknow why they are.
(43:53):
Like he doesn't want there tobe something just because it
looks cool, he wants there to bea reason for it.
So, like for Frankenstein, healways wondered like, why would
Frankenstein have all thesescars on him?
You know, that in thetraditional like universal
monster.
Like he's like, if you're gonnatake a body, you're gonna take
a head, you're gonna take atorso, arms and legs.
Why are there scars everywhereelse?
And so in his version of it, hesaid it in this war period and
(44:18):
where Victor Frankenstein had toget corp multiple corpses.
Ashley (44:21):
Yeah.
Mari (44:22):
And it wasn't just like a full torso.
So that's where part of it camefrom.
And then the other thing isthat the the the way they
designed where the scars andstuff were in the creature's
makeup is it would be like wheremuscles and things were.
So the idea being that maybeVictor Frankenstein, you know,
being a tinkerer, doing this forthe first time, would like get
(44:43):
something wrong and then have tolike open up a little window,
open up a patch to like fix amuscle or something, and then
put it back down, you know, likepatch it back in.
And so that's where you haveall these like a lot of it went
based off of like the contoursof the body.
Jonathan (44:55):
It was interesting.
Ashley (44:56):
Yeah, Jacob O'Reilly had to sit for like 10 hours for
some of those makeups solidly.
Yeah, you know what it alsoreminds me of is what's her name
from Guardians of the Galaxy.
Oh, yeah.
Jonathan (45:07):
Oh yeah.
Ashley (45:08):
I just pulled up a picture where it was just like
his side profile.
Jonathan (45:11):
Is it is it then no hair cabin element?
Ashley (45:14):
No, it's it's the color and the texture.
Jonathan (45:18):
How did you feel about the hair that he it was
interesting to see that grow.
Ashley (45:23):
It mimicked his father, his creator.
Right.
So uh I think that's why Ithink that's probably why the
Guillermo just went that way.
It was probably unlikely thathe would grow body hair
otherwise, though.
Mari (45:35):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I like this movie a lot,obviously.
I was looking forward to it.
I had high expectations, theywere exceeded.
Ashley (45:44):
I had no expectations and they exceeded.
unknown (45:47):
Yeah.
Ashley (45:47):
I don't I honestly think Jacob Alordi was probably one
of the best castings they couldhave made.
I mean, like his facialfeatures alone, you know, the
very heavy brow, like that'sthat's natural to him.
That wasn't makeup orprosthetics or you know,
anything.
And again, his his height andhis length, right?
Like that gangly but alsomuscular, you know, perspective.
(46:10):
Uh, I really thought that wastop-tier casting.
I thought Mia Goth did afantastic job, you know, being a
little whimsical, a littleserious, and you know, just that
that concept of attachingyourself to something different,
right?
Kind of like it in the way thatI I attached myself, you know,
(46:31):
emotionally to my dog.
Like that dog could have beenhuman to me.
Um, I thought, you know,everyone did it.
And fucking Littlefinger.
Was Littlefinger in this movie?
No.
No, who am I thinking of?
Christopher Waltz.
Is that who it is?
The the arms.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Jonathan (46:50):
Syphilis.
Mari (46:52):
Yeah.
Jonathan (46:53):
I didn't see that coming.
I did was that in the book too?
Mari (46:55):
Did he no his character was not in the book at all,
which was interesting because Ididn't know what to expect from
him, but I I I think he was aninteresting, like patriarchal
patriarchy kind of fit-incharacter because you had this
money for Victor Frankenstein,and Victor didn't care where it
came from.
It was it was he was an armsdealer, but Victor didn't care.
He was just so obsessed withlike what he wanted to do, he
(47:17):
didn't care what it took for himto get to his goal.
He took money from anybody, andhe was willing to do it up
until well, I guess even beyondthe moment where he a
Christopher Waltz character waslike, I want my braid in the
creature in in the Frankenstein,and Victor was like, nah.
Jonathan (47:36):
Was that because he was too far gone?
It's interesting because inthat moment, like if you if you
if what you want and and sothink if it were me and there's
a goal that I wanted to achieve,and I'm so close, and it's just
hinging on like I need thisguy's help.
(47:56):
Like, like at the it at thattime, you should be like, well,
I've clearly I can't do it now,right?
Because we need to just makesure this is gonna work.
But yeah, like it, yeah, cool.
We'll we'll hook you up.
Come and see me on Monday.
You know, at which point I cansay no on Monday, but like in
that moment.
But I'll just be like, yeah.
Yeah, I got you.
Brain?
Cool.
(48:17):
What do you what do you want tobe a a brunette?
You want to be a blonde?
What do you want?
I'll hook you up.
Like it didn't make sense to methat he was gonna say no.
Ashley (48:25):
But it made it interesting that that was the
line for him.
Jonathan (48:28):
For who?
Ashley (48:28):
For the doctors.
Jonathan (48:30):
Yeah, like why like why why all of a sudden did that
matter?
Mari (48:33):
Because it would have messed up his creation.
That's really all he caredabout was him succeeding.
Jonathan (48:39):
I I but I don't think in that moment it was supposed
to be or didn't strike me.
I didn't perceive it as itbeing like the a singular
creation, like, hey, this is ourtest subject, and you'll be
what's next.
We don't need the first mover.
We can be the improver.
(48:59):
And maybe it is a little bit oftechnology.
Like we've developed thistechnology, we can prove it
works now.
We can e there's an evolutionwhere we can if you can take
these other dead folks andresurrect them of sorts, then
you can take what's what may beperceived as my consciousness
(49:19):
and implant it into anotherbeing and give me a second shot
at life.
Ashley (49:23):
Yeah.
Which ultimately didn't work,right?
Or maybe because the subjectswere already dead, deceased when
he built the monster.
Jonathan (49:31):
But like if he had just taken built friend, I'd
prefer if you refer to him asfriend.
Ashley (49:35):
Uh well, that's not what the doctor called him, but
anyway.
Jonathan (49:38):
Um the doctor wasn't polite.
Ashley (49:41):
No, he was a narcissist.
Jonathan (49:42):
Yeah.
Ashley (49:43):
He was a traumatized, a traumatized narcissist.
So, you know, nurture versusnature.
Like, what would have happenedif his parents were or his mom
had survived, right, and livedlonger and he had the nurturing
to become a decent, a moredecent human.
Yeah.
Jonathan (50:00):
It's interesting.
That's maybe an entirelydifferent debate we could get
into and would love to.
Ashley (50:05):
No, I just it's perspective though, right?
Like he was an asshole, right?
But at the end of the day, hewas unwilling to take a living
body and and create somethingdifferent from that, from those
pieces.
Jonathan (50:18):
Well, I think he just drew that line because of it, it
wasn't it wasn't the best ofthe best.
Ashley (50:24):
You know, it was like uh because his body was already
compromised with the disease,because his brain was already
compromised.
Mari (50:30):
Because you gotta remember, like on the
battlefield, remember on thescene in the battlefield, like
Victor Frankenstein was likecherry picking the best of the
body parts.
You wanted to cherry pick thebrain?
Jonathan (50:40):
I assume so.
How could he?
I don't know.
Ashley (50:44):
Yeah, that's what I'm saying.
Jonathan (50:45):
Cherry pick the thought process.
He I mean, like you couldprobably examine the corpse and
like, hey, this is disease, thisis probably no good.
Which he went through a bunchof I mean, he had a whole
disposal system.
Mari (50:56):
Yeah.
Well, and and you know, in theoriginal book, Barry Shelley
doesn't really go into anydetail as to how the creature is
created.
So, like all these labor, youknow, laboratory scenes you see
in all the movies are allimagination.
So this is just like Gil YellowDotoro's take on it.
Ashley (51:12):
Yeah, yeah.
The knowledge back then wouldhave been extremely limited,
especially to a woman, no less.
Right.
Mari (51:17):
Like a 19-year-old girl, basically.
Yeah.
Sure.
Right.
Jonathan (51:20):
Who taught her to read?
Mari (51:22):
Actually, her mother was a feminist, and her father was a
like he had a lot of politicalideological views, and he he he
taught her, he was very adamantthat she be Yeah, I was just
joking.
Jonathan (51:33):
I'm cool.
I'm good.
Ashley (51:34):
No, but that's probably those are two very strong
reasons why you know the answerto your question is valid.
Like in that day and age, wasthat a priority, especially in a
certain level of income?
Right?
Reading m reading much lesswriting.
Right.
Or the time to write a book.
Yeah.
Mari (51:51):
Yeah.
Ashley (51:51):
Did she she didn't publish initially under her own
name, did she?
I thought I read that shedidn't.
She had a lot of fun.
Mari (51:57):
I think that she didn't, but like the the forward to the
book was done by her husband,and so everyone assumed that he
had written it, because he wasalready an established writer at
that point.
And then it was like publishedanonymously.
Yeah, and then like later on,like on a a republish or
re-release or something, she puther name on it and and he was
(52:18):
like, No, really, I didn't writethis, she did.
Ashley (52:21):
Yeah, it took a few years, so it was published in
1818 un anonymously, it says,and he wrote the preface.
Preface?
I think so.
Sometimes I read words and Idon't say them correctly.
He make Jonathan makes fun ofme.
But her first credit cameseveral years later, 1821.
And that was just the Frenchtranslation, 1823, before
(52:42):
English trend the Englishedition was published under her
name.
Fascinating.
Jonathan (52:46):
You can write a book, Ash.
I'll I'll I'll support that.
Ashley (52:49):
I don't have the imagination for it.
I could probably like scrub itif somebody wrote a book.
I could probably edit it to adegree.
Jonathan (52:56):
So if you're an author out there looking to get a book
edited, is your gal volunteer'stribute.
Mari (53:01):
Yeah.
Any other thoughts we had onthe movie?
Jonathan (53:04):
I the how vulnerable was was Victor.
It felt this is interestingbecause it it felt a little it
felt mildly hopscotchy at theend.
Like I really I enjoyed Ienjoyed the opening.
I enjoyed the the establishingof the storyline, the the the
(53:26):
journey that that Victor took inorder he all the way up until
like when when it when he blewhis leg up.
Like I was like, oh man, thisis good.
But then I think the wheels forme, for me, the and this isn't
for everyone, but the wheelsfell off for me after his after
the explosion, after he tried totake out Creek friend.
Mari (53:48):
That's funny.
The the wheels fell off for meas far as being on his team
earlier on.
Jonathan (53:53):
Okay.
Mari (53:54):
For me, it was when he tried to tried to seduce his
brother's fiance.
Jonathan (54:01):
It was a very interesting development there.
Ashley (54:04):
To be fair, she sent him some signals.
No.
She did.
Jonathan (54:08):
Uh I mean, it it it's his brother's fiance.
Mari (54:13):
Like that's not I think she had genuine scientific and
like intellectual curiosity inhim.
Because I think that she Idon't think she had any real
feelings for WilliamFrankenstein either, to be
honest.
I think she was, like manywomen of that time, told who
you're going to marry.
I think she was a a pawn andher what was Christopher Wall's
(54:35):
character?
It wasn't her father, heruncle.
It was her uncle.
Yeah, her uncle.
Her uncle was like, This is whoyou're going to marry.
Because she basically went fromthe the nunnery, the convent,
to like being a fiance.
And I don't think that she hadany real say in this situation.
I think she was interested inVictor Frankenstein as like an
(54:56):
intellectual equal.
And I feel like once he waslike, and I wish I could
remember the exact words, butthe the scene that happened in
his apartment, in VictorFrankenstein's apartment, where
he's like, Hey, I like you.
And she had when she went andbrought him the butterfly.
And she was like, she likebrushed him off and left.
(55:17):
I feel like that's the point atwhich she realized that he was
wanting more.
Jonathan (55:21):
Yeah.
Mari (55:22):
There was an interview I saw with Jacob Already where he
said that like when GuillermoLototo was directing him, like
telling him how to what to whatto look into and research and
whatever for the creature, hetold them, Don't, don't study
people, study your dog.
Yeah, the creature friend waslike a dog, wanted to be loved,
wanted to be like I didn't evenknow that, Maureen.
Ashley (55:41):
I just told the story about Bubba.
Yes.
Yes.
I was right.
Yeah.
Jonathan (55:45):
Yeah.
I I I feel I feel that as well.
Like it could have it was verymuch this unforgiving, not
unforgiving.
What's the word?
Un unwavering.
Maybe it is unwavering.
Ashley (55:56):
It's it was just gratitude.
Jonathan (55:57):
Yeah.
Ashley (55:58):
Um it was it was gratitude towards the person
that gave him time and attentionand kindness.
And then because his brain wasable to learn from the stories,
right?
He read and read and read, andhe or he was read too.
Yeah.
And so he learned that he hadbeen done wrong by.
And that's why he was searchingout his creator.
Mari (56:20):
Exactly.
All right.
Ashley (56:22):
Do we think it's a kissing story?
Jonathan (56:24):
Yes, I think it's a kissing story mostly because at
the end they kiss.
Ashley (56:28):
Yeah, it's a kissing story.
This story.
This is background there.
Scoff at us.
Kelly (56:33):
They did kiss.
Mari (56:34):
Kelly?
Kelly (56:35):
I mean, I would say the way it was done by Guillermo Del
Torah, it is.
Mari (56:40):
I agree.
I think it's a kissing story inthe romantic sense between
Elizabeth and the creature/slashfriend.
But I think it's also a kissingstory in the familial love
sense.
Jonathan (56:51):
That paternal offspring.
Mari (56:55):
Yeah, that parent child.
Yeah, except for the biggestthing.
Well, I think it's mommymistakes.
Ashley (56:59):
Oh, I think it's mommy.
Victor Frankenstein had hugemommy issues.
Huge mommy issues.
So he was in love with hismother.
Yes.
And had to kiss me.
And then his mother turned intohis his his girlfriend.
Wannabe girlfriend.
Wannabe girlfriend, right?
Mari (57:12):
So yeah, this is this is all inappropriate types of
kissing.
And like the only thing youever see Victor Frankenstein
drinking is milk.
I'm just saying.
The entire movie.
Jonathan (57:22):
I clocked that.
I just didn't want to say itbecause everybody makes fun of
me for loving milk.
It's solid.
It's accurate.
Mari (57:28):
Yeah, so I agree.
Kissing, kissing story forsure.
The quote that I couldn't thinkof that Elizabeth Frankens, the
Elizabeth character says at theend when she's dying is to be
lost and to be found, that isthe lifespan of love.
Yeah.
Jonathan (57:42):
Interesting.
Mari (57:43):
One last thing I will recommend, even though I've not
yet listened to it, because Ididn't want it to get in any way
confused or influenced for ourepisode.
But Sarah and Jess at Hissinand Kissin podcasts have done a
Frankenstein episode.
I don't know if it's just onthis movie or if it's
Frankenstein in general, butjust knowing them, I would
recommend if you like this, ifyou enjoyed this, go listen to
(58:05):
that.
I'm gonna listen to it afterthis too.
I would I would listen to thatepisode of theirs.
Anything else before we wrap itup, guys?
Ashley (58:11):
No, I think we killed it.
Mari (58:12):
Yeah.
Did we revive it?
Jonathan (58:14):
We resurrected it.
Mari (58:14):
We resurrected it, brought it back to life.
It lives, it's alive.
Jonathan (58:19):
With them, did they have that moment in there?
Like that I I'll I'll I'm gonnabe honest.
My favorite, my favorite friendis uh Peter Boyle.
Mari (58:27):
Is that from young Frankenstein?
Jonathan (58:29):
Yeah, Franken Frankenstein.
Mari (58:31):
I have not actually seen that movie.
Jonathan (58:34):
Blasphemer.
Mari (58:35):
I know.
Jonathan (58:36):
It's it's it's com it's comical.
I need to watch it.
Mari (58:38):
Kelly, we need to watch that sometime.
Okay.
Yeah.
Jonathan (58:40):
Ashley, do you want to go for a roll in the hay?
Roll, roll, roll, in the hay.
It's in the movie, it's in themovie.
Mari (58:45):
That sounds like a pass for me.
All right.
Thanks for listening to OfSwords and Soulmates.
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(59:07):
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(59:28):
our next episode when we willbe talking about the book Good
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Views expressed in this podcast are solely those of the
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The hosts make no claim to beliterary experts, and their
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Mari (00:28):
Let us be monsters together.
Hello, and welcome to Up Swordsand Soulmates, a podcast where
we read, watch, and discussromanticy stories.
I'm one of your hosts, Mari,and with me I have Kelly.
Kelly (00:38):
Hey everyone, it's Kelly.
We also have Ashley.
Ashley (00:41):
Hi guys, it's Ashley.
We also have Jonathan.
Jonathan (00:44):
What's good, everybody?
It's JP.
I'm super thankful and gratefulto be here with you guys.
Mari (00:48):
Yeah.
Jonathan (00:49):
Most wonderful time of the year.
Mari (00:50):
It's post-Thanksgiving, gearing up for the winter
festivities.
Krampus knocked.
I'm sure that's what you'retalking about.
Your most favorite, favoritewinter monster, right?
Jonathan (01:01):
I did.
I'm not gonna lie.
I did, I'll text you a picture.
I did craft a Krampus partyhat.
Mari (01:08):
Hey.
But we are not talking Krampus.
Today we're gonna be discussingGuillermo de Toro's
Frankenstein movie based on thebook Frankenstein or the Modern
Prometheus by Mary Shelley.
But first, as always, somenews.
Um, we've got some, not quiteas much, I don't think, as
normal, but we'll see.
Kimberly Lemming, who we love,did a cover reveal for her
(01:30):
latest novel.
It's called I Punched an Alienand Now We're in Couples
Therapy.
Um, we read for the podcast, weread the first of her Mead
Mishaps books, if you guysremember vividly.
Jonathan (01:42):
I do wish I hope to meet her.
Mari (01:44):
That would be amazing.
I haven't I haven't seen her doa lot of traveling anywhere
near our area, but that would begreat.
This book is set to ship outSeptember of next year,
September 18th, 2026, 19 bucks.
The cover is very reminiscentof all her covers, especially
like this is the second one inthat sci-fi alien zaniness kind
(02:06):
of series that she has.
That's different from her MeadMishap series, also zany.
I'm looking forward to that.
I basically it is if she writesit, I will read it.
We need more Kimberly Lemming.
Jonathan (02:18):
Absolutely, 1000%.
Mari (02:20):
I also have that Litjoy Crate is doing a special edition
of Gail Carson Levine's The TwoPrincesses of Bamar.
This is she's the author ofElla Enchanted.
I actually have not read thisbook, but it's 100% in the same
style, like visually andsize-wise and everything as the
Ella Enchanted special editionthat they did.
(02:41):
It's hand signed by the author,it's $29.99, and it's ready to
ship.
It's like, you know, you youyou buy it, you get it now.
I'm a kind of good lookingbook, too.
It is.
Ella Enchanted was reallypretty.
I think it was one of theprettiest books I got last year.
So I was like Was it a goodread?
I don't know yet.
I just got it.
Jonathan (02:59):
Oh, oh sorry, I'm sorry, I thought you got it.
Mari (03:01):
I've never read it, and I honestly probably won't read it
until like January.
So it's gotten to the time ofyear where I pretty much focus
solely on holiday reads.
So it's it's gotta be somethingreally I have to be really in
the mood for something differentfor it to pull me out of that.
I'm pretty much set on likeholiday reads at this point,
winter holiday reads.
We also have another coverreveal.
(03:22):
This is for The Wrath Gods Reapby Abigail Owens, which is the
conclusion of the Chris Crucibletrilogy.
So we read the first one forthe podcast, the second one came
out this year, third one iscoming out November 17th, 2026.
$29.99 right now for thehardcover.
The cover is designed by LJAnderson.
Um, it's really pretty.
(03:43):
It's got like the sprayed edgesand all that fun stuff if you
pre-order.
We have yet another coverreveal.
This is by Jaclyn Hyde.
It's for book four of herMonster Bay series.
Bay B-A-E.
This one is called Locked inLove.
It releases February 25th,2026.
So the first one of this is avampire, and the audiobook has a
(04:07):
Romanian accent, so it isstraight up Dracula.
Like every stereotype ofDracula you can think of as the
main male character vampirecharacter.
The second book is a werewolfwho also has like an accent.
The third one doesn't have anaudiobook out yet.
It's the Frankensteincharacter, but he's described as
having like a British accent.
(04:27):
And so this one is Scottish.
So I'm loving how every one ofthe every one of the books has
different accent and like a vibeto it.
Jonathan (04:38):
So is this a is this a this is a more curvy girl style
book?
I'm assuming I'm looking at it.
Mari (04:44):
Uh Locked in Love looks like it from the cover.
I don't know.
I don't know anything about thethe plot other than I don't
think it's a spoiler when youhave an aquatic looking manned
creature and it's called Lockedin Love.
I'm I'm assuming he's a LochNess monster, but I I I don't
know anything beyond that.
Jonathan (05:03):
So he did a lot of sit-ups.
One, two, three, four, five,six, seven, eight abs.
All the abs.
Mari (05:10):
I guess, you know, with immortality, you have lots of
time uh for all the sit-ups.
Jonathan (05:15):
Yeah, I just have the one ab.
I have two.
If I bent over and have myshoes, then I have two abs.
But I'm not sure my abs aresupposed to touch.
Mari (05:22):
My abs are there.
They're very well insulated.
Jonathan (05:25):
We're built for winter.
Mari (05:26):
Yes.
Very insulated.
Sorry, that took a second.
unknown (05:30):
Sorry.
Mari (05:31):
I was not ready for that joke.
But I I really like the theseare, I believe, all the books
that Jaclyn Hyde has written,but I really like the writing
style.
It's rom-commie.
They're not like particularlysuper serious.
They're not like they have afull-fledged story.
The characters seem very fullyfleshed out.
They all kind of you have someoverlap where like some of the
(05:54):
other characters are mentionedin the further books.
Yeah, I I've enjoyed readingthis series a good bit.
She will be at MasereticaBookCon in May.
And I'm looking forward to tomeeting her.
All right.
Next bit of news we have isthat Gregory McGuire, author of
Wicked, that we talked aboutlast episode and the whole
(06:14):
Wicked series, is releasing ananother prequel.
So there's one prequel that'scalled Elfie.
That's the story of Alphabet asa as a child.
This seek this prequel that'scoming out is called Gelinda,
and it's Gelinda's storyline.
It's coming out in fall of2026.
Jonathan (06:30):
Looking forward to that too.
Mari (06:31):
Yeah, I still have not read Elfie.
So I'm I'm needing to work myway up through them.
Jonathan (06:35):
Yeah, I just that's gonna be next on my list.
For that's probably one of thefirst books I'll read in 2026.
But I think that's a goodthing.
Also a pretty book, by the way.
Ashley (06:42):
Yeah.
Jonathan (06:42):
It is a delightfully Elfie, I mean.
Yeah.
I did I did was able to snagthat one this weekend.
Mari (06:48):
Yeah, so I need to I need to get through those all in good
time.
So many books.
Not enough time.
Speaking of, Time magazinereleased their 100 must-read
books of 2025.
I will say, from what I couldtell of the fiction ones,
because they're cat, yeah, theyhaven't you can separate them
out by fiction and non-fiction.
Of the fiction ones, there'sonly one that I thought might be
(07:12):
that that's romancy that Icould tell.
And that's Catabasis,Carabasis.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
I think that's the which Ihave.
I have the book.
I just haven't read it.
Also a pretty book.
Yeah, also a very pretty book.
And I like the author.
I've read other things by her,but I've not read that one.
So most of the rest of thefiction books that I just kind
of sampled through to kind ofget a vibe for them, a lot of
(07:34):
them I had never heard of.
I think two or three I hadDNF'd, but a lot of them were
like very, I don't know what theword is.
Fiction only in the mostspeculative of sense, where it's
like very could be a truestory.
There was a lot of death andcancer and family members with
cancer and that kind of stuff.
And I'm just like a lot ofdepressing sounding books, to be
(07:56):
honest.
Yeah, but I think that I Idon't think I've read any of
them.
I don't think I've finished anyof the ones that are in that
100 must-read books of 2025.
Any stand out to you guys?
Jonathan (08:07):
No, not to me.
Ashley (08:08):
I'm not gonna lie, I didn't do my homework and I
didn't see the list.
I suck.
Mari (08:14):
Um no, I sent it out just before we we started recording.
It is not you, it is me.
I suck.
Ashley (08:19):
Take a gander really quickly.
I don't even recognize any ofthese titles.
I know.
Questioning who who made thislist.
Yeah, yeah.
This isn't even a Goodreadslist.
No.
I'd like to know more about SkyDaddy, but that's about it.
I'm not impressed with thislist.
Mari (08:35):
Yeah, yeah.
That's kind of my that was kindof my thought on it.
I went through it and I'm justlike, oh, okay, that's fine.
But anyways, it exists, it's athing.
The last little thing I haveisn't really news, more I guess
kind of news, a little bitdiscussion thing.
So Sarah from Hissin andKissing sent me the a link to
this.
Um, and I thought it wasinteresting.
It's a it's a threads post byAya Winter, who's an author, and
(08:59):
it's called What's ActuallyGoing On in Romancy Right Now?
In parentheses, a calm,grounded take, not rage bait,
not a clap back, just clarity.
And she basically goes on tosay that a lot of the chaos
happening in romancy right now,quote, isn't about the books.
It's about trend readershipversus genre readership.
And those are not the samethings.
(09:20):
She says that like Avatar andFourth Wing created a wave, not
a genre, and that these booksbrought new readers into
fantasy, which is good, but thattheir gateway series, not genre
blueprints, those are herwords.
And she's this is her what shewas saying is that quote, when
readers only engage with theviral wave and not the broader
(09:40):
genre, they naturally expect thesame pacing, the same romance
to plot structure, the samecharacter archetypes, the same
emotional beats, the samespecial girl and brooding guy
dynamic, the same digestivalworld building.
So when a book doesn't followthat formula, it gets labeled as
bad writing, problematic, slow,etc.
It's not a critique, it'salgorithm-shaped expectation.
She says online discourse isbeing driven by content cycles,
(10:02):
not craft.
And basically that when writerstry to write to that, you get
what's he said, quote, if everywriter followed these quote
rules, we'd end up with the samebeige algorithm-approved book
over and over again.
The friction is between trendreaders and genre readers, not
between readers and writers.
And the different expectationsthat trend readers versus genre
(10:23):
readers want, that neither groupis wrong, and that they
encourage different things.
But basically that we all needto be more encouraging of
different types of books in ourgenre, um, rather than labeling
something as bad just becauseit's not what we expect of the
one book that's popular or theone book that we like best in
that genre.
I thought it was an interestingpoint, interesting discussion.
Ashley (10:47):
My initial feeling on hearing you speak of this topic
was that of this particularwriter got a bad review or has a
friend that did and felt sometype of way about it.
I mean, art is subjective,right?
And I think there are somebooks that just have tones that
we like and tones that we don't.
And you we just so we just wentto the book con, right, just a
(11:10):
couple months ago, and we foundthat very lovely vendor with the
very lovely jewelry, and shevery highly recommended this one
book.
Remember, she like activelydownloaded it on our phones for
us.
I couldn't, and she raved aboutit.
It was like like it was throneof glass, right?
Like like high tier.
I couldn't get through threechapters.
Mari (11:29):
No, me either.
Ashley (11:30):
So I mean, it's not that the book was bad, it just it
wasn't for us.
And so I think maybe having aconversation with some of these
readers who can be veryprotective of the things that
they love, right?
Very opinionated, very, verystrongly passionate about things
that sometimes they react verypoorly to if they venture beyond
that author.
Speaker 5 (11:50):
Yeah.
Ashley (11:51):
But I don't, yeah, I don't, I think it's more about
educating for the people who area little overzealous than it is
about us broadening her ourhorizons.
I think the true I think thereaders are doing that.
And I think I think it'sbecause of social media like
TikTok and Instagram where I'vebeen able to broaden my horizons
and venture into new authorsand different series so that I'm
(12:14):
not just going down this onepath of Fourth Wing and Sarah J.
Mass.
Mari (12:19):
Yeah.
Ashley (12:19):
So I don't know.
I think that article to me isrubbing me slightly wrong
because it's it's going towardsone very particular narrative.
I think the people who are verypassionate about the reading
that they're doing are exploringother avenues and opening up
their minds to other authors.
Mari (12:35):
Yeah, I mean, I think it's I think the way I took it is
that it I took it from theviewpoint of like how you talk
about how how we should talkabout books that maybe we don't
a hundred percent like.
You know, like the whole ideaof like maybe a book isn't for
us, that doesn't mean it'sautomatically a bad book.
And I don't think any of usdoes that.
I don't think any of us islike, oh, this is a bad book
just because I didn't like it,you know.
(12:57):
But there are people who arethat way in all genres, not just
romanticity, let me say that,and not just readers, movie
critics, you know, fans, etc.
That just because somethingisn't for you, or it's not maybe
the the thing that you may becraving or liking at this point
in your life doesn't make itautomatically bad.
(13:17):
You know, that you you ought tobe able to critique a thing or
talk about a thing without justlabeling it bad or good, you
know?
Ashley (13:26):
I also feel like that can translate into a lot of
things.
Mari (13:28):
Yeah, I agree.
Currently.
I agree.
Not just books, not just books.
Yeah.
Yes, 100%.
I agree.
Like one of the like this waslike an eight-part post on
threads, but one of the partsshe said was, quote, romanticy
is not one monolith, fantasy isnot one monolith, romance is not
one monolith.
You're allowed to dislike astory.
(13:49):
You're not obligated to declareit morally bankrupt, badly
written, or fandom taboo justbecause it didn't hit the trend
reader formula.
Reading widely is how you learnwhat you love.
End quote.
Jonathan (14:00):
It's interesting.
So is she or is this personupset that that readers, I
guess, are that there's now likethis mainstream romancy vibe?
Mari (14:12):
I don't I don't think the person is upset.
It didn't come across as a likean emotionally charged post.
I think they were likeanalyzing what's happening in
the romancy genre right now,because the romancey genre is a
very popular, very financiallyviable genre right now.
It's exploding out, you know,which is great.
This is how we get moreauthors, this is how we get more
(14:34):
ideas, more you know,sub-genres and all that.
And so I think it was just heranalysis of what's happening.
I don't think she I don't feellike she was angry about any one
thing.
I thought I I felt like it wasjust like an analysis of what's
going on.
Interesting.
Jonathan (14:48):
The yeah, I mean, to each to each zone, we all we all
like odd, odd things.
Um I think even in this, likeeven in the same podcast, like
like my what I engage with moreis uh is significantly different
than what you engage with mostoften.
Mari (15:08):
Yeah, which is different than what Kelly likes and which
is different than what Ashlikes.
Jonathan (15:12):
So Yeah.
Mari (15:13):
Which is it is fine.
Like we should all be able tolike what we like and it be
okay.
Jonathan (15:19):
Are people choosing sides?
Are people getting upset?
Like, no, no, no.
I don't think so.
Mari (15:23):
I like I don't think this is a I don't think this was like
a hot, hot take or anythinglike that.
I think it was just her take onsome of what is happening in
the in the romantic genre, whichyou know, anytime something
becomes like a a bubble or likebecomes a big thing that's
growing, there's people who aregonna analyze it and critique it
(15:44):
for whatever reason and youknow, whatever.
I don't know.
Maybe she was coming at it morefrom the writer standpoint.
I was thinking of it more fromthe like what we do where we
just talk about the books andstuff.
Yeah.
I thought it was interesting.
Jonathan (15:55):
Yeah, I mean it's I'd I'd like to get more context
from from her.
Like it's a lot, it's it's alot of bullet points in the
posts.
And you're right, it is likeso.
The other thing is she's she'smaking a a statement in on a
short format social media.
Maybe there's room for a largerarticle or even like a video
where she could speak to herpoints a little more with a
(16:19):
little more clarity.
Mari (16:21):
And maybe she has, I don't know.
I don't follow this, I haven'tread anything by this writer.
I don't follow her on likeInstagram or TikTok or anything.
Maybe she has a a longer formversion of it.
I don't know.
This was, I think, postedfairly recently, so maybe she
doesn't have one yet and she'sworking on it.
Like this was posted a day ago,so I think it's still kind of
gelling, you know?
Jonathan (16:41):
Yeah.
Let's call her up.
Let's get her on a show.
Mari (16:43):
Yeah, yeah.
All right.
Any other new stuff?
Jonathan (16:46):
I don't think I have any anything on my end.
How about you, Ash?
Ashley (16:50):
I tend to send Mari everything.
You do.
Yeah.
And if I've missed anything,please let me know.
That is just relativelyinteresting.
I tend to send to her.
I don't even know that I do myown vetting, I'm not gonna lie.
I think the only oh, the thingI sent you this morning, the Lee
Bardugo extension of the sixshe's continuing the Six of
Crows series.
Mari (17:10):
Yeah, it's as a it's a short story.
So we we vaguely talked aboutthis when she first announced
it, but I don't think she had atitle released when we first
talked about it.
So the title, it's it's at thetime that we talked about it, it
was just gonna be like a shortstory, you know, continuation
Six of Crows short story, but ithas a title.
(17:30):
It's gonna be called Six ofCrows, A Darker Shore, Letters
from Ketterdam.
It's gonna be released June30th, 2026.
It's 64 pages, so very short.
But still, I want it.
I will read it.
I am I am looking forward toit.
So I will probably I think Imessaged you this, but yeah, I
will probably use that as amotivational tool to maybe do a
(17:54):
little reread of some of the thebooks in that series because I
did really enjoy how it endedand where it came to as a
series.
Ashley (18:03):
So you always rave about the Six of Crows series.
Mari (18:06):
I really need to try that one.
Ashley (18:08):
I couldn't get into the other one.
Mari (18:10):
Yeah, the Shadow and Bone Grueverse.
Like I understand it had tohappen to kind of start the
world, but it's definitely notthe one that draws me the most.
Like it's definitely all theside people is was the better,
was the more compellingstorytelling for me, is what
what what drew my attention.
So any other news bits?
That's all I got.
Okay.
(18:31):
So why we chose this movie?
I think just because we wantedto.
It's our show, and it's what wewanted to do.
There wasn't any real hardreason other than the movie just
came out and it's all fresh,and I've watched it a billion
times.
Jonathan (18:46):
So well, I should say we should add this.
You part of why we chose thisis because we know it lights you
up, Mari.
Mari (18:53):
Yeah.
Jonathan (18:54):
And that's a and that's okay.
We want to lean into some ofthe things that you like too.
And this is like this is Ithink this is cool for you.
I love it.
Mari (19:02):
I love Frankenstein, I love Guillermo del Toro.
Put them together, and I was Iwas very excited about this
movie coming out, but I was alsoanxious before it came out
because last year, around thistime of year, December of 2024,
I was really excited aboutNosferatu coming out.
And I ended up not likingNosferatu.
(19:24):
I know that's kind of I know alot of people love it.
That's fine.
I'm not gonna dish dish youknow diss on anybody who likes
it.
It just didn't do it for me, tothe point where I dragged poor
Kelly to the movies.
Kelly hates going to themovies.
I dragged him to the movies,and in the middle of the movie,
I turned to him and I'm like,I'm so sorry.
Once again, Kelly, I'm sosorry.
So this year, Giamala Totoreleased Frankenstein.
(19:48):
So let's talk about it.
So it was released August 30th,2025, in Venice at the 82nd
Venice International FilmFestival, and then October 17th,
2025, in US theaters, and thenfinally November 7th, 2025 on
Netflix.
So the synopsis is that thestory follows the life of
Frankenstein, an egotisticalscientist whose experiment in
(20:11):
creating new life results indangerous consequences.
Simple and to the point.
So let me give a little bit ofbackground here and step in if
you have questions, etc.
So it was produced, written,and directed by Guillermo del
Toro based on the 1818 novel byMary Shelley.
So movie based on a book.
(20:32):
Mary Shelley OG Goth Girl.
Her and Percy Byshelleyallegedly consummated the
relationship for the first timein a cemetery where they would
secretly meet.
Ashley (20:42):
On top of her mother's grave or something, wasn't it?
Mari (20:45):
Something like that, yes.
Something like that.
Like I don't know how much hisscandalous stuff has built up
over the years.
You know, it's hard to parsethat out, but I yeah.
And then after she died, herfamily found a copy of a poem
written by her husband by Percyby Shelley that she had wrapped
around some of his ashes and theremains of his heart that she
kept after he died.
Jonathan (21:04):
Well, that's interesting.
Mari (21:06):
Not at all creepy, guys.
Not at all.
Ashley (21:10):
So the goth lore is deep, deep with her.
I don't even know if that'sjust goth.
Some of that treadsdifferently.
Obsession.
No, no, that's no.
Jonathan (21:23):
Well, I mean, so I think maybe it's it it could
just be love.
I mean, it could just bepassion, right?
I mean, what happened backthen?
Like what what what what wouldhappen to your loved ones when
they passed?
Ashley (21:39):
Oh no, I was talking about the having sex in a
cemetery part.
Jonathan (21:43):
Oh, I think we're talking about having this heart
hanging out.
Mari (21:46):
I mean, I don't know if this is I guess to add more to
the story, she was really young.
So we're talking about a lot oflike teenage hormones happening
and rebelliousness and etcetera.
Like, I believe at the time hewas married to someone else at
the time they were meeting up.
So it was like illicit, youknow, meetups in the cemetery.
Get a girl.
Yeah, yeah.
So yeah.
Jonathan (22:07):
Who would go look in the cemetery?
You know what I mean?
Mari (22:09):
Right.
Right.
They're like, no one's gonna belooking.
So not wrong.
Yeah.
That's a good point.
So then they did they'd beentogether, they had a child, a
baby girl who was born prematureand ended up passing away.
All this before she even turned19.
So I mean, all this happenedvery young.
So then the summer of 1816,after the the baby died, Mary
(22:30):
Shelley and Percy went to summerin in Geneva with Lord Byron
and John William Polidori.
And this was the setting forthe birth of Frankenstein.
So setting the mood, 1816 wasknown the summer of 1816 was
known as the summer, the yearwithout a summer, because there
was this big volcanic eruptionin what is now Indonesia, and it
(22:53):
caused like the summer to becold.
So there were like cropfailures, there was major food
shortages, all like in thenorthern hemisphere.
Jonathan (23:02):
Like a nuclear winter?
Mari (23:04):
I don't I don't think it was that bad, but it was
definitely unusual, especiallywhen you think about I don't
know how much of that theyunderstood at the time.
You know what I mean?
Um, so you maybe don't knowwhat's going on.
You don't have Google, youdon't have the internet, just
all of a sudden summer's not assummer as it was.
Yeah, it was it was aninteresting time.
And I don't remember Kelly,you're better at trivia and
(23:26):
dates and stuff.
Do you guys remember SebastianNothwell when he remembered in
his book Oak King Holly King, hetalked about a year where like
the summer didn't come?
Was it the same year?
Like, was it the same year thathe was talking about?
Was that the same time period?
Do you remember?
Jonathan (23:41):
After just Googling like like Ash Cloud Winter, like
one prominent one pops up, likea volcanic winter of 536.
I'm sure there were probablymultiples, yeah.
Yeah, okay.
It's a good way to like expressthat though, especially like in
that time, because that's likeit's when you talk about like
(24:02):
oak oak king and Holly King,those are those those might be
like those are pagan like uhelements.
I don't know.
Mari (24:08):
Yeah, Oak King, Holly King.
I mean, that was the name of ofSebastian's Nottles book, but
also it's an older story.
I'm not super familiar with it.
I don't know what it dates backto, like I don't know which
tradition.
Like I don't know if it'sCeltic.
I I don't know, but it's anolder story.
It's like a like a folk tale orlike a fairy tale.
I know that it's an old one.
(24:29):
And then, of course, you know,he did his his version of it.
But back to Frankenstein.
So you have Mary Shelley in herhubby, and then you have Lord
Byron, who was like this bad boyrock star of his time.
He was like bi or pan sexual,just depending.
He was had a lot of influencethat has continued into modern
(24:52):
day culture and pop culture.
The the term the Byronic herobasically comes from him.
It's an idealized but flawedcharacter whose attributes
include great talent, greatpassion, a distaste for society
and social institutions, a lackof respect for rank and
privilege, although possessingbut possessing both, being
thwarted in love by socialconstraint or death, rebellion,
(25:14):
exile, an unsavory secret past,arrogance, overconfidence, or
lack of foresight, andultimately a self-destructive
manner, which is seen in a lotof literature.
I would say it's like theproto, almost grumpy sunshine.
It's the grumpy one in someways.
It's also kind of like anenemies to lovers, like the
beginning of all that, or atleast contributing towards that.
(25:36):
So you have him, and then youhave John William Polidori, who
is credited as the creator ofthe vampire genre, um, because
he wrote the first modernvampire novel called The Vampire
um that summer.
As of the same same same summerthat they wrote Frankenstein,
he wrote that, and his vampirecharacter is widely believed to
(25:57):
be based off of Lord Byron.
So the vampire tropes that wehave in modern like Western
culture are are Lord Byron.
Ashley (26:04):
Oh.
Mari (26:05):
So you have that.
That's how Frankenstein, thebook, got started.
Then we have Guillermo Latoro,who's like kid grew up in
Mexico, he's Mexican, he was allabout the weird, freaky things,
he liked the scary movies, andhe had been a fan of
Frankenstein for like 50 years,but he'd been trying to make the
Frankenstein movie specificallyfor like 20 years.
(26:27):
This was like his his passionproject thing.
Formerly, like pre-productiondidn't start till 2008, and he
went through a lot of differentFrankensteins.
Uh he went through differentscripts and different ideas, but
also a lot of different peoplethat would play his
Frankenstein.
So originally he thought it wasgonna be Doug Jones who did uh
the creature in the shape of thewater, and he was also the fawn
(26:48):
in The Labyrinth?
Kelly (26:50):
Pan's Labyrinth.
Mari (26:51):
Pan's Labyrinth, thank you.
I was like the Fawn'sLabyrinth.
Pan's Labyrinth.
Yeah, he's done, he was what,Abe Sapien in the Hellboy
movies?
Kelly (26:58):
Correct.
Mari (26:58):
He was he's he's in Star Trek.
He's been in a bunch of things.
One point it was gonna be him,and then more recently it was
gonna be Andrew Garfield.
Jonathan (27:07):
Sasha.
Mari (27:08):
What?
Yes, as as the creature inFrancasign.
And then like nine weeks beforethey started filming, it it
changed.
I don't know, I haven't beenable to find anything that says
why it changed, but it changed.
I don't know if Andrew Garfieldpulled out if he had other
arrangement, you know, otherthings he had to do.
I don't know.
But then Jacob Alradi came inand became the creature that we
got in the final movie.
I mean, from a heightperspective, right?
(27:32):
Jacob was a good call.
Although I guess there's a lotyou can play with with
perspective and stuff to makeyou know a character look
taller, but yeah, yeah.
So Guillermo Toro finally gothis Frankenstein.
He said it in the Crimean War,which was like in the 1850s.
So that's like the setting forthis version of Frankenstein
(27:52):
that we see.
So you have this war setting,which is really common in a lot
of Guillermo del Toro's moviesand stories.
He casts Oscar Isaacs as VictorFrankenstein, he casts Jacob
Alati as the creatureeventually, and then Mia Gough
and Christopher Waltz were theother big ones.
And it's funny because he, ifyou watch some of the
documentaries and things, hetalks about his idea of Victor
(28:15):
Frankenstein was like an uh anartist or like a rock star, like
a painter or a rock star.
And so that's what he wantedOscar Isaac to like portray when
he was Frankenstein, which Ithought was interesting.
And the music was done byAlexander de Plot, who did the
music for the Grand BudapestHotel and won won an Academy
Award for it, and for The Shapeof Water.
(28:35):
I really liked the music.
I don't remember if I don'tthink I maybe noticed the music
as much the first time I watchedit, but definitely the second
and third time the music camethrough as the score came
through as like really welldone.
Ashley (28:46):
I think I'd have I don't think that registered with me
on the first watch.
Mari (28:50):
I think I tend to I think I tend to the the score tends to
come up for me on rewatches.
Because I remember when werewatched The Mummy, I thought
about the score a lot too.
Like it really like came out tome.
I guess because I wasn't as asdistracted by all the visuals
because like Guillermo Lotoro'smovies are usually super
visually in Oh yeah.
No, there was a lot to witnessin this movie.
(29:12):
Like I I was reading a aninterview book, a journalist
that interviewed him, andGuillermo Toro said, like people
talk about eye candy and howhis movies and stuff, he doesn't
want it to be eye candy, hewants it to be eye protein.
Like a hearty meal for youreyes.
Ashley (29:28):
Bro, that's the biggest dad joke ever, my dude.
Yeah, and it it definitely islike it's he's not no, you know
what?
He delivered.
I'm not even mad.
I'm only slightly mad at thedad joke, but I'm not really eye
protein.
He delivered, yeah, yeah.
Mari (29:43):
It's it's almost impossible to really watch a
Guillermo Litoro movie and likehave your eyes be somewhere
else, like be on your phone orwhatever.
You're just not you're notgetting it.
Yeah, so much is conveyedvisually.
And he's all about practicaleffects and practical sets,
which makes everything look andfeel.
More real because it it is likethe ship in the movie.
(30:04):
They built the ship.
It was so big they couldn'tbuild it in a studio, they like
built it out in a parking lot.
I was gonna say that doesn'tsound very practical.
Yeah.
Okay.
Not as opposed to like throwingit to CGI.
You know, you'd like watch someof these movies like from the
90s, early 2000s, and thatseemed kind of cool at the time,
and you go back and watch inthe CGI and the special effects
look real bad.
(30:24):
Real bad.
But then you watch some stuffthat had practical effects, like
a never-ending story or youknow, labyrinth or whatever, and
it holds up the test of timebecause you're not relying on
the computer wizardry, you'rerelying on real things, so your
your eye doesn't have to be astricked and it believes more of
(30:45):
the fantasy.
All right.
Jonathan (30:47):
Shout out Jim Henson.
Mari (30:48):
I love Jim Henson 100%.
Also, Guillermo Toto did theynot not he.
I know there were a billion,there were a bunch of artists
who did this.
I don't know who all did allthe sets and stuff, but they did
the laboratory, like where thecreature was created, where
where it was born.
That was fully built out, likethose giant batteries, the giant
(31:11):
cross, like all that stuff waslike fully fledged, the giant
Medusa coin in the back.
Ashley (31:16):
I hope he's making a part two then, because this
doesn't sound very practical orsound mildly wasteful.
Yeah.
unknown (31:23):
Yeah.
Jonathan (31:23):
Well, the the they were just like the two major,
like, or what I perceived as twomajor sets would be like the
the manor and then the like theshack, right?
And it was or what was thatlike a mill that he was kind of
camped out in?
Mari (31:42):
I think it was some part of a mill, yeah.
Jonathan (31:43):
Yeah.
Like one was very ornate andelaborate.
Yeah, one was very basic.
And it was that's practical,but not the lab.
Um, I think I I think Ash yougotta let go of the I don't
think I can.
Practical in this means likereal, right?
Like it was it it wasn't itwasn't the special effect, as
(32:04):
opposed to special effects.
Correct, yeah.
I mean it'd all be specialeffects, but one one would be
like more computer generatedeffect versus practical effects.
Mari (32:16):
Right.
Kelly (32:16):
So like this thing was like, yeah, they built the ship,
you know, and had a CGI-ishbackground type thing, but the
ship was real when the monsterhit somebody and the the person
he hit flew across the ship andyou know, off the edge of the
ship, they had somebody on wiresand actually flew across when
(32:37):
got hit, they got hit instead ofit being just completely CGI.
Mari (32:40):
Yeah.
And actually, even likeobviously there was CGI, you
know, to make the scenery in theArctic things, but also they
had these huge like cranes thatwould like light everything up
to do all the lighting.
So in addition to like havingthe actors having the ship, you
had to like negotiate all thesecranes with cameras and lights
(33:01):
and like reflectors to geteverything to be lit up just
right.
And for not as much for theship scenes, but for the scenes
in in the laboratory, Guillaumekept describing the the way that
the cameras moved andeverything, like was a rock
concert.
So there was like a lot ofmovement in the cameras when
they filmed.
So all that had to be, you hadto choreograph with the camera
(33:23):
as well as with the actors, aswell as around these practical
effects.
It was interesting.
And like there was even a partwhere they I watched, so there's
a there's a documentary onNetflix that's called, I forget
what it's called, but it'sbasically like the the making of
Frankenstein.
And it's like a little20-minute documentary about some
of the different effects andthe different things that went
into making it.
And they talked about there wasa a crew of artists that did
(33:46):
the Frankenstein's laboratoryfrom the outside the tower.
They did like a to scaleminiature of it.
A miniature was like still 30feet tall.
And that's what they blew up inthe scene where like it it
blows up and falls.
So they did that as opposed toit being like a total CGI of of
the explosion to make it morerealistic.
Jonathan (34:07):
Yeah.
And Ashley, when they blew,when they I like as a practical
effect, when they took outOscar's leg like that.
How did you I mean, like, didyou see that scene, Ash?
And now he's Oscar is withoutthat leg.
He gave it all for that It'sall very practical.
Very practical.
No, that was that was agruesome scene.
Ashley (34:26):
It was very gruesome.
Jonathan (34:27):
Like it was I I feel like that was very well done.
Ashley (34:30):
Extremely top-tier casting, by the way, besides
Jacob, like Oscar Isaac.
The second I saw Oscar, I waslike, my I'm in.
Take my money.
Jonathan (34:41):
Okay.
I mean Oscar, I think Oscar dida really good job of being of
making me uncomfortable in thebeginning, especially when it
was like, what's going on withyour brother's fiance?
And then but I I think the notthe very end of it, but like the
moments leading up to to theend, like after he had healed
(35:03):
his leg, I thought that was kindof meh, Oscar.
Like it just it was almostcomic.
Ashley (35:10):
Wasn't consistent Oscar for you?
Jonathan (35:12):
It wasn't consistent Oscar.
Ashley (35:13):
Speak for yourself.
I loved him.
Jonathan (35:15):
He did a spectacular job.
Mari (35:17):
For the most part, this was definitely Guillermo del
Toro's version of Frankenstein.
So it's not like 100% accurateto the book, which nothing would
be unless you're doing like amini-series that's you know,
word for word.
But it's his adaptation of it,it's his vibes of Frankenstein.
For example, like this is theonly version of Frankenstein
(35:38):
I've seen or read whereElizabeth Frankenstein is the
fiance of Victor Frankenstein'sbrother.
Oh.
That's not original.
If I'm remembering right,Kelly, have you read
Frankenstein?
Kelly (35:50):
Yes.
Mari (35:53):
She was like a pseudo-cousin to Victor
Frankenstein, like she grew upin the same household, but I
don't think she was actuallyrelated.
Like I think she was adopted,and Victor Frankenstein's mother
kind of hoped that that she andhe would get married.
They were being raised togetherfor like an arranged marriage,
so to speak, but they weren'tactually related.
But she also wasn't engaged toanybody else.
Kelly (36:15):
Right.
She was basically adopted orpseudo-adopted by Victor's
family.
Mari (36:20):
Which is interesting, adding her as like so in in the
book, William Frankenstein, likeyou know, uh Victor
Frankenstein's little brother,is way younger.
He's like five years old, uh,and he's not much of a
character.
Like, spoilers anybody whohasn't read the eight you know
the 1800 book, it he dies likevery early on.
Ashley (36:39):
I was gonna say, is there like a trauma then?
Like, is does his mom not diein the Oh, the mom dies too.
Mari (36:44):
Like everybody dies just about there's so much trauma.
There's a lot of trauma.
I think that Guillermo Torotakes the trauma.
Like, as far as the if I had togo with the theme for this
movie, it would be theintergenerational trauma and
like trying to break from it orat least recognize it.
Because like VictorFrankenstein's father treats him
a certain way, abuses him acertain way, raises him a
(37:06):
certain way.
And then when VictorFrankenstein creates this
creature, he doesn't know whatto do with him once he's finally
created it.
He's sitting like that sceneafter after he gives the
creature life, and then he'ssitting on the stairs, like, I'm
lost now, I have no idea whatto do.
Sure.
And then when he's trying tolike train the creature or teach
the creature, he ends up doingthe same things his father did.
(37:28):
He would hit the creature, hewould, you know, beat him, he
would berate him.
And then the the ending is is100% Guillermo del Toro.
Like it's not in the originalbook where like the where Victor
Frankenstein asks the creaturefor forgiveness and the creature
gives him forgiveness, thebreaking of like the
intergenerational trauma.
That's not in the book, but itwas a beautiful message.
(37:50):
Yeah, very Hollywood.
Yeah, it's also very Guillermodel Toro.
Like he said something aboutlike if he had if he had been
able to do this 20 years ago, itwould have been a dialogue
between him and his father.
But now that he has grown kids,he feels like the movie was a
dialogue between him and hisfather and his kids and him, you
know.
Perspective, yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
So he there's a quote that Iran across, uh, an interview
(38:14):
somebody did of Guillermo Lotoroand and uh talking about the
differences between his versionof Frankenstein in the original
and the other versions ofFrankenstein movies that have
come before him.
And he said, quote, uhadaptation or adapting is like
marrying a widow.
You gotta respect the husband'smemory, but you gotta get it
on.
Ashley (38:32):
He's so spicy.
Mari (38:33):
He really is.
Ashley (38:34):
He's got jokes.
Mari (38:36):
Yeah, I yeah, yeah.
Skipping over, I don't want toskip over the costume design for
this movie.
So Kate Hawley did the costumedesign, and she had worked with
him before, with Guillermo deToro before on Crimson Peak and
Pacific Rim.
And she was introduced toGuillermo de Toro by Peter
Jackson.
And I've seen several of likeinterviews with her of how they
(38:58):
came about with the looks forthe different characters and how
it it further cemented theirpersonalities.
Like Victor Frankenstein isthis dandy and this rock star
and this artist, and the waythey dressed him, where he was
like kind of punk for his time.
Like he had these plaid pants,he had this weird-shaped hat.
Like he was not what weconsider punk or rock star now,
(39:20):
but he was definitely stood outfor the time.
Ashley (39:23):
Right.
Mari (39:23):
And especially like at the beginning where he didn't have
as much money towards the end,where he was being funded by the
weapons dealer and he had moremoney, it got his clothing got
like more and more elaborate.
And then Elizabeth was supposedto be like nature, the power of
nature, and how she wasobsessed with insects and
whatnot.
So, like the patterns that theyused on her dress, they took
(39:45):
like pictures of blood cells andoverlaid them over like
patterns of malachite.
And like for the green dressthat she has was those weird
round splotches, that's whatthat is.
And then she's wearing thislike blue-green dress.
They the patterns that theyuse, the pattern you've seen
that is they used x-rays andthey like layered it into the
tull of the dress.
Wow.
Yeah, like the details arereally interesting.
(40:08):
Yeah, no, I had no idea.
And then like the the bridedress where she's got the white
dress, the the corset that goesover it, the white corset that
goes over it, is mimics the ribcage, which you can especially
tell as the blood soaks thedress and the ribcage stands
out.
And then her sleeves with theribbon on them is is like an
(40:31):
homage to the old black andwhite, like universal
Frankenstein bride scene whereshe's got the ribbons on her on
her arms.
That dress was spectacular.
It was it was a pretty dress,but then when it got like all
bloody and the details of itreally stood out, it was just
like that was amazing design.
You thought that through.
Yeah.
That lady, that lady did herjob.
(40:52):
Yeah, yeah.
Very, very well done.
And part of that was guided bylike she does a lot of
historical stuff, so she knowslike the the shapes that things
are supposed to be for thatperiod, and like ways to make
things look of that period.
But like apparently GuillermoToto was very much like, I don't
want this to be a DickensVictorian thing.
(41:12):
No, I don't want it to be allblack hats and boring colors.
And so she brought in all thesepatterns and like bright
colors, like you know,Elizabeth's like bright yellow
bonnet and her her weird likeblue feathers and stuff that she
wore the in the hair, like thefirst time that she's met, those
were like they were that shapewas in in that time.
(41:33):
That was like the the the inhairstyle of the time with these
weird, like weird shapes aroundthe sides of your uh the sides
of your head.
And then that costuming bringsin, along with some of the the
other scene elements, color.
Like there's a lot of colorbeing a big thing throughout the
movie, which Guillermo de Toroalso did this on Crimson Peak.
So like in Frankenstein, likeat the beginning, where like the
(41:57):
first half of the story is thecreator's viewpoint, you know,
Victor Frankenstein's viewviewpoint, and then the second
half is the creature'sviewpoint.
So the first half it's like hischildhood is very black and
white and red.
And then red is like blood, andit's like the mother.
And so then his the the the redgets transferred from the mom
when she dies to him, and hestarts wearing that little red
(42:18):
scarf as a kid.
And then as an adult, he's gotthe the blood on his hands with
the red gloves, and then there'slike the red bed, and then all
his his nightmares of the thered angel or whatever.
That was the only time he sawred.
And then like the dark blueswere Christopher Walt's
character, Victor Frankenstein'sfather's character, William
(42:39):
Frankenstein, those were likedark navy blues, and these like
patriarchal figures.
And then Elizabeth Frankensteinwas all in the greens.
She brought like the greens andthe nature.
The nature, yeah.
Yeah, into it.
And I didn't catch this tillafter the second time I watched
the movie.
Mia Goth plays both ElizabethFrankenstein and Victor
(43:01):
Frankenstein's mother.
I didn't, I did not catch that.
Nobody did.
It was like they gave hereyebrows and she was a
completely different person.
I was like, that's not the sameperson.
Um that looked, I'm like, ohwait, it is okay.
Ashley (43:12):
Silly human.
Yeah.
Jonathan (43:14):
I I you know what I didn't like in terms of like
costume or or makeup.
I'm not I'm not entirely sure.
I I I enjoyed the look of thecreature.
Mari (43:22):
I thought it was fantastic.
I thought it was really goodtoo.
The patchwork of it all.
Jonathan (43:27):
Because I was it was it just didn't land with me.
Mari (43:30):
It was supposed to be two things.
It was supposed to berepresentative of stained glass.
Um yeah.
But also, like Guillermo Torosaid he has said in several
interviews of his monstercreations.
Every time he creates amonster, like whether it's Ape
Sapien, whether it's Hellboy,whether it's the the shape of
the water creature, he wants toknow why they are.
(43:53):
Like he doesn't want there tobe something just because it
looks cool, he wants there to bea reason for it.
So, like for Frankenstein, healways wondered like, why would
Frankenstein have all thesescars on him?
You know, that in thetraditional like universal
monster.
Like he's like, if you're gonnatake a body, you're gonna take
a head, you're gonna take atorso, arms and legs.
Why are there scars everywhereelse?
And so in his version of it, hesaid it in this war period and
(44:18):
where Victor Frankenstein had toget corp multiple corpses.
Ashley (44:21):
Yeah.
Mari (44:22):
And it wasn't just like a full torso.
So that's where part of it camefrom.
And then the other thing isthat the the the way they
designed where the scars andstuff were in the creature's
makeup is it would be like wheremuscles and things were.
So the idea being that maybeVictor Frankenstein, you know,
being a tinkerer, doing this forthe first time, would like get
(44:43):
something wrong and then have tolike open up a little window,
open up a patch to like fix amuscle or something, and then
put it back down, you know, likepatch it back in.
And so that's where you haveall these like a lot of it went
based off of like the contoursof the body.
Jonathan (44:55):
It was interesting.
Ashley (44:56):
Yeah, Jacob O'Reilly had to sit for like 10 hours for
some of those makeups solidly.
Yeah, you know what it alsoreminds me of is what's her name
from Guardians of the Galaxy.
Oh, yeah.
Jonathan (45:07):
Oh yeah.
Ashley (45:08):
I just pulled up a picture where it was just like
his side profile.
Jonathan (45:11):
Is it is it then no hair cabin element?
Ashley (45:14):
No, it's it's the color and the texture.
Jonathan (45:18):
How did you feel about the hair that he it was
interesting to see that grow.
Ashley (45:23):
It mimicked his father, his creator.
Right.
So uh I think that's why Ithink that's probably why the
Guillermo just went that way.
It was probably unlikely thathe would grow body hair
otherwise, though.
Mari (45:35):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I like this movie a lot,obviously.
I was looking forward to it.
I had high expectations, theywere exceeded.
Ashley (45:44):
I had no expectations and they exceeded.
unknown (45:47):
Yeah.
Ashley (45:47):
I don't I honestly think Jacob Alordi was probably one
of the best castings they couldhave made.
I mean, like his facialfeatures alone, you know, the
very heavy brow, like that'sthat's natural to him.
That wasn't makeup orprosthetics or you know,
anything.
And again, his his height andhis length, right?
Like that gangly but alsomuscular, you know, perspective.
(46:10):
Uh, I really thought that wastop-tier casting.
I thought Mia Goth did afantastic job, you know, being a
little whimsical, a littleserious, and you know, just that
that concept of attachingyourself to something different,
right?
Kind of like it in the way thatI I attached myself, you know,
(46:31):
emotionally to my dog.
Like that dog could have beenhuman to me.
Um, I thought, you know,everyone did it.
And fucking Littlefinger.
Was Littlefinger in this movie?
No.
No, who am I thinking of?
Christopher Waltz.
Is that who it is?
The the arms.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Jonathan (46:50):
Syphilis.
Mari (46:52):
Yeah.
Jonathan (46:53):
I didn't see that coming.
I did was that in the book too?
Mari (46:55):
Did he no his character was not in the book at all,
which was interesting because Ididn't know what to expect from
him, but I I I think he was aninteresting, like patriarchal
patriarchy kind of fit-incharacter because you had this
money for Victor Frankenstein,and Victor didn't care where it
came from.
It was it was he was an armsdealer, but Victor didn't care.
He was just so obsessed withlike what he wanted to do, he
(47:17):
didn't care what it took for himto get to his goal.
He took money from anybody, andhe was willing to do it up
until well, I guess even beyondthe moment where he a
Christopher Waltz character waslike, I want my braid in the
creature in in the Frankenstein,and Victor was like, nah.
Jonathan (47:36):
Was that because he was too far gone?
It's interesting because inthat moment, like if you if you
if what you want and and sothink if it were me and there's
a goal that I wanted to achieve,and I'm so close, and it's just
hinging on like I need thisguy's help.
(47:56):
Like, like at the it at thattime, you should be like, well,
I've clearly I can't do it now,right?
Because we need to just makesure this is gonna work.
But yeah, like it, yeah, cool.
We'll we'll hook you up.
Come and see me on Monday.
You know, at which point I cansay no on Monday, but like in
that moment.
But I'll just be like, yeah.
Yeah, I got you.
Brain?
Cool.
(48:17):
What do you what do you want tobe a a brunette?
You want to be a blonde?
What do you want?
I'll hook you up.
Like it didn't make sense to methat he was gonna say no.
Ashley (48:25):
But it made it interesting that that was the
line for him.
Jonathan (48:28):
For who?
Ashley (48:28):
For the doctors.
Jonathan (48:30):
Yeah, like why like why why all of a sudden did that
matter?
Mari (48:33):
Because it would have messed up his creation.
That's really all he caredabout was him succeeding.
Jonathan (48:39):
I I but I don't think in that moment it was supposed
to be or didn't strike me.
I didn't perceive it as itbeing like the a singular
creation, like, hey, this is ourtest subject, and you'll be
what's next.
We don't need the first mover.
We can be the improver.
(48:59):
And maybe it is a little bit oftechnology.
Like we've developed thistechnology, we can prove it
works now.
We can e there's an evolutionwhere we can if you can take
these other dead folks andresurrect them of sorts, then
you can take what's what may beperceived as my consciousness
(49:19):
and implant it into anotherbeing and give me a second shot
at life.
Ashley (49:23):
Yeah.
Which ultimately didn't work,right?
Or maybe because the subjectswere already dead, deceased when
he built the monster.
Jonathan (49:31):
But like if he had just taken built friend, I'd
prefer if you refer to him asfriend.
Ashley (49:35):
Uh well, that's not what the doctor called him, but
anyway.
Jonathan (49:38):
Um the doctor wasn't polite.
Ashley (49:41):
No, he was a narcissist.
Jonathan (49:42):
Yeah.
Ashley (49:43):
He was a traumatized, a traumatized narcissist.
So, you know, nurture versusnature.
Like, what would have happenedif his parents were or his mom
had survived, right, and livedlonger and he had the nurturing
to become a decent, a moredecent human.
Yeah.
Jonathan (50:00):
It's interesting.
That's maybe an entirelydifferent debate we could get
into and would love to.
Ashley (50:05):
No, I just it's perspective though, right?
Like he was an asshole, right?
But at the end of the day, hewas unwilling to take a living
body and and create somethingdifferent from that, from those
pieces.
Jonathan (50:18):
Well, I think he just drew that line because of it, it
wasn't it wasn't the best ofthe best.
Ashley (50:24):
You know, it was like uh because his body was already
compromised with the disease,because his brain was already
compromised.
Mari (50:30):
Because you gotta remember, like on the
battlefield, remember on thescene in the battlefield, like
Victor Frankenstein was likecherry picking the best of the
body parts.
You wanted to cherry pick thebrain?
Jonathan (50:40):
I assume so.
How could he?
I don't know.
Ashley (50:44):
Yeah, that's what I'm saying.
Jonathan (50:45):
Cherry pick the thought process.
He I mean, like you couldprobably examine the corpse and
like, hey, this is disease, thisis probably no good.
Which he went through a bunchof I mean, he had a whole
disposal system.
Mari (50:56):
Yeah.
Well, and and you know, in theoriginal book, Barry Shelley
doesn't really go into anydetail as to how the creature is
created.
So, like all these labor, youknow, laboratory scenes you see
in all the movies are allimagination.
So this is just like Gil YellowDotoro's take on it.
Ashley (51:12):
Yeah, yeah.
The knowledge back then wouldhave been extremely limited,
especially to a woman, no less.
Right.
Mari (51:17):
Like a 19-year-old girl, basically.
Yeah.
Sure.
Right.
Jonathan (51:20):
Who taught her to read?
Mari (51:22):
Actually, her mother was a feminist, and her father was a
like he had a lot of politicalideological views, and he he he
taught her, he was very adamantthat she be Yeah, I was just
joking.
Jonathan (51:33):
I'm cool.
I'm good.
Ashley (51:34):
No, but that's probably those are two very strong
reasons why you know the answerto your question is valid.
Like in that day and age, wasthat a priority, especially in a
certain level of income?
Right?
Reading m reading much lesswriting.
Right.
Or the time to write a book.
Yeah.
Mari (51:51):
Yeah.
Ashley (51:51):
Did she she didn't publish initially under her own
name, did she?
I thought I read that shedidn't.
She had a lot of fun.
Mari (51:57):
I think that she didn't, but like the the forward to the
book was done by her husband,and so everyone assumed that he
had written it, because he wasalready an established writer at
that point.
And then it was like publishedanonymously.
Yeah, and then like later on,like on a a republish or
re-release or something, she puther name on it and and he was
(52:18):
like, No, really, I didn't writethis, she did.
Ashley (52:21):
Yeah, it took a few years, so it was published in
1818 un anonymously, it says,and he wrote the preface.
Preface?
I think so.
Sometimes I read words and Idon't say them correctly.
He make Jonathan makes fun ofme.
But her first credit cameseveral years later, 1821.
And that was just the Frenchtranslation, 1823, before
(52:42):
English trend the Englishedition was published under her
name.
Fascinating.
Jonathan (52:46):
You can write a book, Ash.
I'll I'll I'll support that.
Ashley (52:49):
I don't have the imagination for it.
I could probably like scrub itif somebody wrote a book.
I could probably edit it to adegree.
Jonathan (52:56):
So if you're an author out there looking to get a book
edited, is your gal volunteer'stribute.
Mari (53:01):
Yeah.
Any other thoughts we had onthe movie?
Jonathan (53:04):
I the how vulnerable was was Victor.
It felt this is interestingbecause it it felt a little it
felt mildly hopscotchy at theend.
Like I really I enjoyed Ienjoyed the opening.
I enjoyed the the establishingof the storyline, the the the
(53:26):
journey that that Victor took inorder he all the way up until
like when when it when he blewhis leg up.
Like I was like, oh man, thisis good.
But then I think the wheels forme, for me, the and this isn't
for everyone, but the wheelsfell off for me after his after
the explosion, after he tried totake out Creek friend.
Mari (53:48):
That's funny.
The the wheels fell off for meas far as being on his team
earlier on.
Jonathan (53:53):
Okay.
Mari (53:54):
For me, it was when he tried to tried to seduce his
brother's fiance.
Jonathan (54:01):
It was a very interesting development there.
Ashley (54:04):
To be fair, she sent him some signals.
No.
She did.
Jonathan (54:08):
Uh I mean, it it it's his brother's fiance.
Mari (54:13):
Like that's not I think she had genuine scientific and
like intellectual curiosity inhim.
Because I think that she Idon't think she had any real
feelings for WilliamFrankenstein either, to be
honest.
I think she was, like manywomen of that time, told who
you're going to marry.
I think she was a a pawn andher what was Christopher Wall's
(54:35):
character?
It wasn't her father, heruncle.
It was her uncle.
Yeah, her uncle.
Her uncle was like, This is whoyou're going to marry.
Because she basically went fromthe the nunnery, the convent,
to like being a fiance.
And I don't think that she hadany real say in this situation.
I think she was interested inVictor Frankenstein as like an
(54:56):
intellectual equal.
And I feel like once he waslike, and I wish I could
remember the exact words, butthe the scene that happened in
his apartment, in VictorFrankenstein's apartment, where
he's like, Hey, I like you.
And she had when she went andbrought him the butterfly.
And she was like, she likebrushed him off and left.
(55:17):
I feel like that's the point atwhich she realized that he was
wanting more.
Jonathan (55:21):
Yeah.
Mari (55:22):
There was an interview I saw with Jacob Already where he
said that like when GuillermoLototo was directing him, like
telling him how to what to whatto look into and research and
whatever for the creature, hetold them, Don't, don't study
people, study your dog.
Yeah, the creature friend waslike a dog, wanted to be loved,
wanted to be like I didn't evenknow that, Maureen.
Ashley (55:41):
I just told the story about Bubba.
Yes.
Yes.
I was right.
Yeah.
Jonathan (55:45):
Yeah.
I I I feel I feel that as well.
Like it could have it was verymuch this unforgiving, not
unforgiving.
What's the word?
Un unwavering.
Maybe it is unwavering.
Ashley (55:56):
It's it was just gratitude.
Jonathan (55:57):
Yeah.
Ashley (55:58):
Um it was it was gratitude towards the person
that gave him time and attentionand kindness.
And then because his brain wasable to learn from the stories,
right?
He read and read and read, andhe or he was read too.
Yeah.
And so he learned that he hadbeen done wrong by.
And that's why he was searchingout his creator.
Mari (56:20):
Exactly.
All right.
Ashley (56:22):
Do we think it's a kissing story?
Jonathan (56:24):
Yes, I think it's a kissing story mostly because at
the end they kiss.
Ashley (56:28):
Yeah, it's a kissing story.
This story.
This is background there.
Scoff at us.
Kelly (56:33):
They did kiss.
Mari (56:34):
Kelly?
Kelly (56:35):
I mean, I would say the way it was done by Guillermo Del
Torah, it is.
Mari (56:40):
I agree.
I think it's a kissing story inthe romantic sense between
Elizabeth and the creature/slashfriend.
But I think it's also a kissingstory in the familial love
sense.
Jonathan (56:51):
That paternal offspring.
Mari (56:55):
Yeah, that parent child.
Yeah, except for the biggestthing.
Well, I think it's mommymistakes.
Ashley (56:59):
Oh, I think it's mommy.
Victor Frankenstein had hugemommy issues.
Huge mommy issues.
So he was in love with hismother.
Yes.
And had to kiss me.
And then his mother turned intohis his his girlfriend.
Wannabe girlfriend.
Wannabe girlfriend, right?
Mari (57:12):
So yeah, this is this is all inappropriate types of
kissing.
And like the only thing youever see Victor Frankenstein
drinking is milk.
I'm just saying.
The entire movie.
Jonathan (57:22):
I clocked that.
I just didn't want to say itbecause everybody makes fun of
me for loving milk.
It's solid.
It's accurate.
Mari (57:28):
Yeah, so I agree.
Kissing, kissing story forsure.
The quote that I couldn't thinkof that Elizabeth Frankens, the
Elizabeth character says at theend when she's dying is to be
lost and to be found, that isthe lifespan of love.
Yeah.
Jonathan (57:42):
Interesting.
Mari (57:43):
One last thing I will recommend, even though I've not
yet listened to it, because Ididn't want it to get in any way
confused or influenced for ourepisode.
But Sarah and Jess at Hissinand Kissin podcasts have done a
Frankenstein episode.
I don't know if it's just onthis movie or if it's
Frankenstein in general, butjust knowing them, I would
recommend if you like this, ifyou enjoyed this, go listen to
(58:05):
that.
I'm gonna listen to it afterthis too.
I would I would listen to thatepisode of theirs.
Anything else before we wrap itup, guys?
Ashley (58:11):
No, I think we killed it.
Mari (58:12):
Yeah.
Did we revive it?
Jonathan (58:14):
We resurrected it.
Mari (58:14):
We resurrected it, brought it back to life.
It lives, it's alive.
Jonathan (58:19):
With them, did they have that moment in there?
Like that I I'll I'll I'm gonnabe honest.
My favorite, my favorite friendis uh Peter Boyle.
Mari (58:27):
Is that from young Frankenstein?
Jonathan (58:29):
Yeah, Franken Frankenstein.
Mari (58:31):
I have not actually seen that movie.
Jonathan (58:34):
Blasphemer.
Mari (58:35):
I know.
Jonathan (58:36):
It's it's it's com it's comical.
I need to watch it.
Mari (58:38):
Kelly, we need to watch that sometime.
Okay.
Yeah.
Jonathan (58:40):
Ashley, do you want to go for a roll in the hay?
Roll, roll, roll, in the hay.
It's in the movie, it's in themovie.
Mari (58:45):
That sounds like a pass for me.
All right.
Thanks for listening to OfSwords and Soulmates.
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of Swords and Soulmates.
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If you'd like to offersuggestions for future episodes,
(59:07):
books, or topics, feel free toreach out to us on DMs at any of
those options or email us atMariet of Swords and
Soulmates.com.
If you want to read along withus as we prep for a new episode
and get chapter by chapterinteraction, join our Fable app
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Club.
And last but not least, we hopeyou'll join us in two weeks for
(59:28):
our next episode when we willbe talking about the book Good
Spirits by B.K.
Borison.
Christmas time.
Bye.
Bye, guys.
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