Beyond the Battlefield: Reclaiming Identity and Purpose After Service

What transpires when the mission concludes, yet the battle persists? We engage in an insightful dialogue with Anthony Dyer, a distinguished Special Missions Aviator and the esteemed author of the memoir *Moon Child*, which encapsulates the harrowing realities of war, trauma, addiction, and the arduous journey toward recovery.

Anthony's narrative, steeped in authenticity, elucidates the trials faced by veterans as they navigate the often treacherous terrain of identity and purpose post-service. Born in the Appalachian Mountains and molded by resilience, his experiences resonate deeply, illuminating the silent struggles that many endure in the aftermath of conflict.

Together, we explore the complexities of healing and the imperative to confront one’s inner demons, while underscoring the vital importance of seeking help and fostering connections with those who understand.

Takeaways:

1. Anthony Dyer's transformation from a Special Operations Aviator to an advocate for mental health signifies a profound journey of healing.
2. In his memoir, 'Moon Child', Dyer candidly addresses the lingering effects of war trauma and the struggle with addiction.
3. The transition from military life to civilian existence often presents unique challenges, particularly in redefining one's identity.
4. Dyer emphasizes the importance of choice in overcoming adversity, advocating for a mindset of 'better over bitter'.
5. Through his writing, Dyer seeks to illuminate the often-hidden struggles faced by veterans, offering insight and hope to those who may feel isolated.
6. The episode underscores that healing is a continuous journey, not a linear process, requiring courage and vulnerability.

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Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Hey, one more thing before yougo. What happens when the mission
ends but the battle doesn't?What do you do when the world you
trained for, the world thatshaped you, is suddenly gone? And
how do you find your way backto yourself? We understand, especially
after war trauma and thesilence that follows. So we're going

(00:21):
to answer these questions andmore when we have a conversation
with a special missionsaviator and author of a book that
documented how he did it andhow you can, too. I'm your host,
Michael Hirsch. Welcome to Onemore thing before you go. Today we're

(00:46):
stepping into a story that israw, courageous, and deeply human.
My guest, Anthony Dyer, wasborn under a full moon in 1982 in
Silva, North Carolina, arugged Appalachian town where resilience
isn't just a trait, it's a wayof life. That spirit carried him
into the US Air Force in 2000and eventually into the elite world

(01:07):
of special operationsaviation. As a special missions aviator,
Anthony flew aboard the AC130HSpectra gunship and the HH60G Pave
Hawk helicopter, executinghigh risk missions in some of those
world's most volatile warzones. Over more than a decade, he

(01:27):
earned multiple honors,including the 2018 Jolly Green Rescue
Mission of the Year inrecognition from the Secretary of
the Air Force, BarbaraBarrett, in 2020. But when the uniform
came off, the real battlebegan. His debut memoir, Moonchild,
is a raw, unfiltered accountof war trauma and addiction and the
long road to recovery. Today,Anthony lives in New Mexico, where

(01:50):
he writes, speaks, andadvocates for mental health while
he's building a life with hiswife and, and his daughter. Welcome
to the show, Anthony.
Hey, thanks for having me,Michael. It's honored to be here.
Your life has taken a. It'sbeen an amazing journey with your
life, and I think, you know,your, your ups, your downs, your
wins, your losses. I thinkeverything in life throws at us,

(02:13):
we, we have a, a choice toeither, you know, adapt and overcome,
or we have a choice to sitback and, and wallow in it. You seem
to have taken that to theadapt and overcome. And, and I sincerely
appreciate that you're being here.
Yeah, I appreciate you havingme. And that's, I like how you, you
know, you put it that way. Andactually a point in my life where
I talked to a pastor and whenI had some things going on, and he

(02:36):
told me, you know, it's likelife circumstances can make you bitter
or better. You know, thechoice is yours, and I chose better
by the grace of God. So thank you.
Always a choice Always achoice. We have that choice. Well,
today I'd like to talk aboutcourage and identity and kind of
a fight to come home. I saidearlier that my audience knows that,
you know, I've got a longhistory of military in the family,

(02:57):
so, you know, I've, I'mexperienced with those coming home
with, with trauma and with thememories and with the, you know,
post traumatic stress syndromeand everything that's associated
with it. And I think that Iappreciate what you bring to this
conversation. So I think wecan explore two things, if you don't

(03:17):
mind. One, what happens to awarrior where the mission ends but
the wounds remained? And thenhow do we rebuild identity and purpose
and hope after trauma and addiction?
Yeah, for sure. You know, Ithink the, you know, when, when the
mission ends, right? And theloss of identity, those two questions
are really the, you know, youget the, the same answer to, to how

(03:37):
to, to get better at it. But,you know, I realized when I was filling
out my DD214, you know, thisbasically my. To pass my 20th year
in the Air Force. And you'rein this personnel type office, right.
And, you know, this blanket ofDD214, right. And you walk out this
office and you look back andthere's no, no door handle, no door
handle on the other, the door.Right. So you can, you can walk out,
but you can't get back in.Right. And that was sort of a symbolic

(04:00):
moment in my life about like,you know, my why and, you know, my,
my reason for, for being, youknow, and especially on the, the
gunship, you know, your, yourmission is to make sure those, those,
the super ninjas get home toyour family. And when that, when
that's gone, that's a, That'sa hard thing to, hard thing to swallow.
It is, it is. So I can relateto that from my own experience as
well. My identity was a policeofficer. I was a. And a sergeant

(04:22):
and leading a team. And when Ileft and had to walk out of my retirement
hearing to determine whetheror not my injury was sufficient enough
to retire me, it was hard. Itwas hard. You know, my wife and I
went out to the car and Ibroke down in the car. It was a journey
because that's who I was, whoI, who I had become, and, you know,

(04:44):
a soldier just like you andcops and firefighters. It's not just
an identity, it's who we are.Whether, you know, if you're a warrior,
that's just who you are. I'dlike to start at the beginning. You
were born in Silva, NorthCarolina. A place defied by, by rugged
landscapes and culture ofresilience. How did growing up in

(05:05):
the Appalachian Mountainsshape your sense of identity and
toughness and adventure?
Yeah, so definitely for theadventure part, you know, the outdoors
scene there, you know, I tellpeople if I wanted to go fishing,
for example, like, I would, Iwould walk half a mile down this,
this mountain road to the, thebeautiful Tassi river there. And
as far as the, theirresilience and like the, I guess

(05:26):
the theme of perseverance, youknow, you know, in, in the mountains
yourself, you had this, theScottish tartan people and you know,
a lot of resilience with that,you know, with that side of things.
And then also down the roadyou have the Easter band of Cherokee
Nation. And I remember, youknow, part of being, being positive,
right, is part of beingresilience. It's almost, almost tactical.
And I tell people the twowolves theory, I sort of learned,

(05:48):
like growing up from thoseguys was like, you know, you have
two wolves, right? And, youknow, you have a wolf that gives
you good, positive, you know,motivation, and then you have one
that, that's negative and mayget you to do some, some bad things,
right? So I think the, the onethat wins is the one you feed the
most. And sort of that wastaught to me at a very young age
and I took that, you know, asfar as the roots part of my journey
and eventually got my wings. So.

(06:11):
Well, you, you joined the air force.
At 18.
That obviously young age thatkind of eventually set your, your
sights on special operations,aviation, which I think is, I find
that fascinating in itself tobe able to do what you do within
that perspective. What drewyou to that world? Was it danger?

(06:32):
The precision, responsibility?What, what kind of drew you to that?
So when I originally joinedthe Air force, I was 17 and I was
my senior in high school, andI, I was going nowhere with my life,
right? And my dad gives me thetypical dad talk. You know, there's
old man, it's time to get ajob, go to college or get out. And
long story short, I talked tosome Navy recruiters about being
on a boat for six months. Ididn't want to do that in the Army.

(06:53):
And I was like, you know what?I'm going to talk to dad about the,
you know, quality of life ofthe Air Force is what he was getting
at. You know, good shot hallsand all that stuff. But eventually,
you know, signed that contractand July 18, I was on my first fixed
swing flight to San Antonio,Texas. Yeah, and that's where my
journey began. And I didn'tget into flying until about halfway
through my career mark there,my ten year mark, right. And, and

(07:15):
basically what it was was Iwas home on leave with some friends
at a pizza, pizza parlor and Ilooked back and the same main street
windy road that has separatedtwo sides of my town for all those
years. I look out and I seethe same cracks in the road. And
I just remember thinking like,man, like you know, I've sort of
been sitting on the sidelinewith the war on terror and I wanted
to get in the fight in the,the highest capacity I could. And

(07:36):
I was like, I don't leavecracks, you know, I'll leave craters
and, and leave a, leave afootprint, you know. And I get older,
my great grandkids ask what Idid. The way I could say that I get
to fly on the fly and fightbeside the best men and women in
the world in the 16th SpecialOperations Squadron on the AC130
gunship.
Well, I appreciate yourservice because that takes a unique
individual especially to go upin the air like that leaves you vulnerable

(07:58):
as well as obviously you'reprotecting and serving and it leaves
you vulnerable to the sametype of thing. Before we get kind
of deep into it, can you takeus into the, into the cockpit? What
did it feel like to fly thatfirst mission?
Yeah, you had a problem. SoI'll take it back to what a special
missions aviators is on the,specifically the AC130 gunship. So

(08:21):
what the Air Force did wasthey combined the aerial gunner career
field, which I was originallythe aerial gunner AFSC and then with
the load master and flightengineer. So you have the Swiss army
knife in the sky if you thinkabout it that way. And my first mission,
I can get into it there was2011 in Bagram and we had been doing
basically just some ISR typestuff on another operation, nothing

(08:42):
for weeks essentially. And welanded from that op and we had to
reload the, the 105 roundsfrom the tweak rounds. And that's
what I mean by tweak is likebasically lining her sights and you
have to spend a few rounds todo that like any weapon, right. And
I remember we got tonortheastern Afghanistan and we alert
launched for that part ofthat. And you know, hour and a half,
two hours later, you know, I'mlooking down in this valley and I'm

(09:04):
basically, I see these twobright flashes and, and what it was,
was there was a, you know,three Taliban members with explicit
pack shooting, the Green Beretteam and you know, and I remember
basically after we shot about64 rounds, you know, and you know,
basically terminate them rightthere. And what it was, was the guys
got to go home to theirfamily, you know, and that's, that's
the part where it said. Andit's like, man, I got to do more

(09:25):
for my country and my, mybrother in arms than. And I don't
have two or fighting I'd donemy whole life. And that was my wild
is just chasing that, thatrelevance, that, that sense of purpose,
you know, and providing thatclose air support for those guys.
Yeah, that's, you know, it'samazing. My step, not my step, my
father, my father in law inVietnam, he was in the Air Force

(09:45):
and served on a C130 himself.It wasn't the same type as yours.
He did mostly missions wherethey dropped supplies and they dropped,
you know, but he worked thetail where they did that. And some
of his stories are crazy wildabout they being shot at and you
know, bullets hitting andgoing through, standing on the end

(10:06):
where he was. I mean that'ssomething that's got to stick with
you in that regard. But beingable to take care of your brothers
in arms on the ground,brothers and sisters in arms, that's
just profound. I mean that'skind of like part of this, part of
your story that most peopledon't get to see, you know, behind

(10:28):
the scenes stuff and what itfeels like to be able to do that.
How, how, how many missionsdid you fly, may I ask?
It was, it was right about 200missions when I combined the, the
missions between the H modelgunship, the Whiskey Gunship, and
then the, the Pavehhelicopter. And most of those being
being our gun.

(10:52):
So getting over chest cold.Forgive me, I'm sorry. Just suck
it.
I'm sorry.
Mark that. Sorry, bud.
Are you good, brother?
So some of you, can you sharesome of the, some of the details

(11:13):
of some of the most dangerousmissions or operations that, that
you're going to do? Like,let's talk about the 2018 Jolly Green
Rescue mission of the year.What does that entail and how did
that come about?
Yeah, so at that point in mycareer, I'd switched to the HH60G
Pave Hawk helicopter and the41st Rescue Squadron, the mighty
Jolly Greens. And JollyGreens. It also goes back to the

(11:36):
heritage there to Vietnamwhere, you know, the rescue helicopters
would land in these, theserice pity fields and rice paddy fields.
Excuse me. And by the timethey had, you know, extracted and
got a, you Know, someonebehind me lines out. It left two
footprints on these ricepaddies and that's where the whole
green feet comes from in thatcommunity. But yeah, I'd switched
to that airframe. There wasbasically a manning shortage in the.

(11:58):
The rotary wing community atthat point. And I'd volunteered to
that for that. And the wholemodel behind that that service is
these things we do that othersmay live and it's a job I could say
now that, you know, youdefinitely want to never want to
have to do. It could besomebody's worst day or even last
day and. And I can get intothe cast of back there. June 8th
of 2018 in East Africa. Andwhat it was was we were seven, you

(12:19):
know, seven days in or six,six out of seven days into this operation
we were standing 24 seven, youknow, for Cassavac. And basically
what it was was there wasabout 40 special operators and then
some partner nation forcesthat went on this, this ground conveya
to do something. And about daysix, you know, out of the operation,
everything's going to normal,everything's in the plan as about
3pm is over there. And I wentto the talk and the intel lieutenant

(12:44):
I was like hey man, I waslike, you know, is everything going
good? And she's like yeah,everything looks fine man, all is
well. And so I was going totake a tactical nap, right? And I
basically one of those thingsyou sleep when you can sleep, eat
when you can eat typescenarios. And I was in this. I went
back to my tent and I was onthe top bunk and then as soon as
I laid down my radio beside mesaid attention on that, you know,
scramble, scramble, scramble.And I just remember like sprinting

(13:08):
a quarter mile to thehelicopter which seemed like the.
Not a big cardio guys, likethe longest cardio in my life it
felt like at the time. But youknow, I get there and I get my gear
on and we take off withinthree, I think it's like three and
a half minutes we, we were inthe air and the first minute of the
flight. So we're about youknow, 15, 20ft off the ground at
that point. And the leftgunner had a runaway gun and what
it was was a orange tear notchon the gal 1850 cal. I had pulled

(13:31):
the flare pin simultaneouslybecause we're fencing in, getting
there, getting ready to gobehind enemy lines, right and all
that. And basically when Ipulled that pin out it. There was
water in the panel thatshorted out our flares which flares
protect us against the. Theheat seeking Surface to air missiles
and it jettisoned all of ourflares and I could literally feel
the heat, you know, like, youknow, almost like to my face almost.
And, and also thecommunications with the, the J track,

(13:54):
the Jack and the ground forcecommander were broken at best. And
I remember there's just apoint where I'm thinking like man,
like, like what is going on?Why is all this happening, all these
things, right? And everythingwas against us from the get go and
about a 13 to 15 minute flightthere. We basically what it was was
there was 12 Al Shabab guys inthe tree lines and they were shooting
dishkas and then mortars thatare at our operators. And so we had

(14:18):
to sort of fight our way in alittle bit you would say. And basically
we had to do about three orfour gun runs with you know, two
helicopters, all 450cals, twoeach on, on target on that tree line,
the JTAP market with purplesmoke rot when we got there and did
about three or four gun passesand then we land and you know, and
I remember they brought in thefirst, the first Eagle, first American
and they put him to the Oxtanks and the PJs start giving him

(14:41):
a tracheotomy and, and thenthey put another Green Beret right
beside me who had take some,some, some basically some ice shrapnel
and they had had it wrappedalready and stuff like that. And
then a partner nation personthat had got shot in the stomach
and comes in the aircraft andI close the cabin door and we take
back off and go back to thegun pattern again. And so we're shooting
this suppressive fire for ourbrothers on the ground because the

(15:03):
trail, the, the secondhelicopter if you will, they had
to pick up their Cat Alphasand basically we get to a point where
like okay, we're going to giveone more gun pass and then we're
going to egress and theypicked up their guys and we egress
and you know, we get, get backto the, the FOB we were at and I
get more gas and bullets, youknow, while the rotor's turning.
And we had to go back to thearea because there was one more,
I think Cap Bravo that thetrail had to pick up. And so we immediately

(15:27):
went in the gunpowders and youknow, I think I unloaded about half
my ammo can on that tree lineat that point. And they get him come
back and I just remember the,the experienced gunner on the left,
he was like hey. He's like,you know, did I Check the helicopter
for bullet holes. And I waslike, man, like, you know, never
really realized it was like.It's like that, right? It's like
that close. There's tracerfire going back and forth and you

(15:48):
know, we're landing on the lznand so I checked no bullet holes.
And then I go to the front ofthe aircraft and I saw the aircraft
commander and, and I could seethat, you know, everything on his
face at that point that whathad happened and what it was, was
the first Eagle, firstAmerican we picked, picked up when
he got on the operating tablewhen he got back, unfortunately perished,
you know, from that firstpickup. You know, I tell people I
didn't know what sacrifice wasuntil that day. I didn't know what

(16:10):
one of the Air Force Corpsvalue service before self was to
that way and to that day. Andyou know, to see that sacrifice,
it really, it forever etchesthat in your heart. And you know,
those guys are our nation'svery best man. The 11 in the 100
Heraclitus talks about. Right.And I'll never forget that moment.
Yeah, I think that those arethe invisible wounds, you know, that,

(16:30):
that you like, you suffer.It's an invisible wound. It's not
something that's out on theopen. And I think that it's a. I
think you talk about in thebook where you kind of talk about
those and the trauma that youexperienced because that is traumatic.
It is traumatic to watchsomebody die. It does stick with

(16:54):
you. You know, the individualsthat I had watched in my own career,
I can pretty much tell youevery one of them. You know, I can
tell you when and where, howyou know everything else. Because
you see those constantly. Theycome back and haunt you. Sometimes,
you know, I'll wake up in themiddle of the night and still see

(17:15):
some of them that I had justhad that affected me more so than
other ones. What inspired youto kind of document that and to write
it into a book and to maybefind a purpose to help other individuals?
Was it to help otherindividuals kind of experience or

(17:35):
go through what they experience?
100 and so I had been. I hadto get prolonged exposure therapy
when I basically the last twoor three years of my career I went
back to gunships. Right. Andyou SOCOM has this preservation of
the force and family. This,this thing where you can have a basically
implac. Like a psychiatrist, aphysical therapist and then a physical
trainer. And I had picked up areally bad drinking habit from. Because

(17:58):
I was at my, you know, 20 yearpoint past that point. And I saw
the, you know, the writing onthe wall, and I'd hit the retirement
button and that. That identitystarting to fade, right? And what
turned into a weekend drinkinghabit turned into a pint a night
at least to go to sleep with,you know, with pills and stuff like
that, very, very dark momentin my life. And my wife gives me
that ultimatum, like, hey,like, it's either the bottle or me

(18:19):
and your daughter. And, youknow, by the grace of God, I chose
them and decided to get help.And I walk in there and there's a
psychiatrist. And I was like,you know, chip on my shoulder, right?
And I was like, what does sheknow about this and that? You know,
and she gave me the clicheanalogy of like, you wouldn't call
a dentist to fix your car. Iwas, okay, I'll give this a try,
right? And part of that proprolonged exposure therapy is you
write everything out at first,right? That they get back to the

(18:40):
trauma. The, you know, in mycase, that missionary that. That
haunts you, right? And youbasically get to. Like we're doing
now, you're conversing,you're. You're saying the hard parts
out loud. Like, you know, andyou get to where you could talk about
it. What? Not like, you know,like, my first time I told her that
story, I cried. She cried inthat point on, she was always like,
you should tell your story,you know, over and over. And I said
no a hundred times. And then,like I said, and I get to that moment

(19:01):
when I'm leaving in thatidentity and I've got all these words
in my brain and some I'dwritten down. I was like, man, maybe
she's right. Maybe I can payit forward. Maybe if I write this
out and if someone gets helpas a result of this book, that's
a blessing. That's a win.
I agree with you. I think thatsometimes for those individuals that
have served in any capacitylike that, it's hard to find purpose

(19:25):
again because your purpose isbuilt into your identity again, like
I said earlier, it's who youare, and it's difficult to let that
go. And when it's when youhave the. You grasp, luckily, you
grasp the opportunity. I'msorry I had to smile when your wife
gave you the analogy. Youwouldn't have a dentist fix your
car. It's like, that kind ofwas perfect, right?

(19:50):
Yeah, yeah, that's what Iknew. But also, like, what would
happen too, is, like, I wouldwant to drink, right? If anybody's
had alcoholism, right? Like tothat level, you know, it's at night
when that hits you and theurges and all that stuff at 3:00am
and what I would do is everytime I want to pick up a bottle and,
you know, go down a store, geta bottle, right, I would pick up
a pen and start, you know,writing some of this Charlotte's

(20:11):
Web, emotional words on. Onanything and wake up in the morning
and try to make sense of that.And, you know, two decades before
and everything that comes withyou. And then. And another reason
I wrote it is because, youknow, what if I didn't write, I think
about that, like, in life,it's not what you do that haunts
you, it's what you don't do.Right. And I always stuck with that.
Well, and I think that'sprofound, actually, because, you
know, the book is raw, it'shonest, it's deeply. It's vulnerable.

(20:34):
And we have a hard time doingthat. You know, any. Any warrior
in any position has a hardtime doing that. Hard to be vulnerable
because you're always used tohaving to be strong and to be at
the top of your gameconstantly. And sometimes that vulnerability,
you know, afraid to let itshow through. And I think you've
done that in this book and youkind of told the truth and what it

(20:58):
really takes to come back, youknow, and to fight back and to come
out of that hole. So, youknow, I appreciate your journey in
regard to that. It's a verydifficult journey. My brother was
going through the same thingthat you're going through. He was
in the Navy, and, you know,the. Some of the stuff that he had
seen and experienced. He wentdown alcohol hole really, really

(21:22):
bad to where it put him in thehospital. And finally he was able
to start doing the same thing.He went and finally admitted he needed
help and went and got help,and I think it's helping him quite
a bit more. I recommended yourbook to him, by the way, so I'm hoping
that he'll pick it up and kindof give him some inspiration, a little

(21:42):
bit of motivation on hisjourney with. At the same time, you
know, it takes a lot to comeback from what you've come from.
Is it a struggle each andevery day, or have you come to understand
some maybe tactics and. Ormethodologies where when you see

(22:04):
something sneaking up on you,you're able to kind of grasp a hold
of it before it gets a hold of you?
Yeah. And I would say thealcoholism part, that is a struggle
every day. I'd be lying if Isaid it wasn't right. You know, I
remember I went to this withthis family and I went to a casino
and I look over and the, thebartenders pouring like, I think
it's like Jose Cuervo liketequila shots and, and the late,

(22:26):
the people really asked me, isit hard to not drink? I'm like, yeah,
every day, Every day is that,that is a battle, right? And I think
we're, we're all very like inthis type of world, right? In these,
these uncommon jobs, right?We're all very normal people doing
a very, you know, not normal,extraordinary thing and either all
or nothing type people. So I'mjust never the person to be like,
hey, give me three drinks, Ican be social. I never understood

(22:48):
that. I took it to extreme andwake up my livers beside me drinking
a cup of coffee type things.But yeah, it is a struggle every
day.
I'm sorry that you're stillstruggling with that. I think that
in itself it shows yourtenacity and your strength that you're
able to overcome. We have tothink about those that are around

(23:09):
us that are kind of anchoredthat your wife and your, and your
daughter, Correct?
Correct. Yes.
Yeah. Nine year old girl, youknow, and I think that, you know,
it, I, I, I can say thisbecause my wife and my kids had to
go through something similarto me when I was sitting in a wheelchair
for four years, feeling sorryfor myself and angry and resentful.

(23:33):
And that whole thing is, it'sa gift when we have somebody within
our lives that are that close,that recognize that we just need
the support and we need thehelp and we need to push, we need

(23:55):
to hold our hand or to push usfrom behind a little bit or pull
us up from the front a littlebit in order to continue to, to,
to move forward. Because it'sa battle every day. It's a different
kind of a battle than you werein. But I think trauma and, and addiction
and the loss of identity kindof create a unique set of problems.

(24:19):
It. Can you tell us how, howyou kind of manage that each day
so that, so those listening orviewing can that are experiencing
this have an opportunity?
That's an excellent question.And I like to tell people, you know,
you know, iron sharpens iron,right? And I try to surround myself
with, with, I call it my 4/4over 100 pennies. And what that,

(24:39):
what that means is like, youknow, the other day, for example,
my daughter asked about likefriendships and closeness and who
to really trust and who hasyour back, right? And, and I was
like, we you know, naturallydriving by a bank. And I was like,
you know, I was like, if yougo to a teller and you give her a
dollar, right? I was like,would you ask for. For 4 quarters
or 100 pennies? And she askedwhy? I said, well, you'd want to
choose the four quarters, youknow, because that's the ones that,

(25:01):
that are accountable. Theyhold you accountable. Right. And
they don't get lost in yourpocket on this. This. Right. Bumpy
ride of life. Right. And so Isurround my people that are positive
and have the same like, ofthinking and to understand and. And
respect, you know, myboundaries with drinking and stuff
like that and that areconstantly holding me accountable
and making me better.

(25:21):
Can I ask you this just froma. I mean, this is for everybody
else out there too, but from apersonal perspective, I will. It
took me a long time to reallyadmit, you know, if post traumatic
stress is something that itcan happen to anybody in any traumatic
situation that has taken placein your life that alters it in such
a way that you have to manageit each and every day. And that's

(25:44):
something that I had to learnmyself and to recognize. I did not
admit that I had posttraumatic stress from my career in
law enforcement until it wasbrought to my attention and I had
to work on it. And I had torecognize that it was post traumatic.
And I had to recognize thatthere were some tools that I needed
to do and some things that Ineeded to do, especially in the form

(26:06):
of communication with not onlymyself, but those around me in regard
to what I was experiencing andhow to kind of change that or manage
that in such a way that itstopped affecting us negatively,
stopped being angry, stoppedbeing resentful, stopped withdrawing.
Is that. Is that something youtalk about in your book? Is that

(26:30):
something that we can lookmaybe. Is that the heart of your
book? Kind of the journeyback, I guess.
Yeah, yeah, the journey back.Can I get to a point in the book
where. Excuse me. You know, Iturned to everything except for my
faith, right? Like, I know Iwent to the bottle, went to. To friends,

(26:50):
I went to psychiatrist, whichis great, but, you know, I'm not
here to. To shove a Bible downanybody's throat. I'm. I'm not a
good Christian, not a goodexample one. But I turned to everything
except for. For Jesus, and helet me know that, you know, and Was
it Matthew 11:28 says, youknow, Jesus is talking. He says,
come to me, all who are weary,burdened, and I will give you rest.
And he gave me that Peace. Hepulled me out of those ashes, and
I'm. By the grace of God, I'mso. I'm thankful that he did, you

(27:12):
know, and that was the truemoment of healing for me, was that
mirror. And that talk withJesus was the most honest conversation
I ever had in my life.
Which is a. That in itself isa blessing. Right. Right off the
bat. Because a lot of timesthat's. You can't recognize that
when you're buried under allof this. It's sometimes hard to recognize

(27:32):
the light at the end of thetunnel or the shadow that's there
or not the shadow that'sthere. The shadows overcome the light
or was presented in front ofyou. So I. I think that's a positive
thing, that you were able torecognize that and take and embrace
it. So writing became liketherapy and. And attribute. Both

(27:54):
therapy and attribute to you.Correct. Or for you.
Yeah, 100. So I. That's a verygood way to put it. So that really,
the two reasons, right, wouldbe to. To show the rest of America,
like. Like this is what goeson, like, while you're sleeping,
you know, and to show what thecost of freedom is. And the therapy
part of it would be like tosay it's okay not to be okay, but

(28:17):
it's not okay to do nothingabout that and to seek help for veterans,
anybody, first responders,anybody that needs help.
So do you think this processand the process of writing and creating
this book allowed you toreclaim your voice and some of your
purpose, maybe?
Oh, yeah. And it showed methat. That I can find those exciting

(28:39):
moments in the common. What'smy mission now? Right. And someone
asked me what, actually theother day, they were like, what aircraft
would you fly? And who'sbeside you? And I said, well, I was
like, I'll be flying, youknow, to be the best dad I could
be. That'd be the mission. Andwho would be beside me would be my.
My wife. So that's. That's mymission now.
Yeah. I think it is nice whenwe are able to kind of redefine our

(29:00):
purpose and find somethingthat really kind of. Kind of puts
us back on track with what weneed to do and how we need to be
and the person that we. Sothat's profound. And your wife and
your daughter being with youon that mission, you know, is a blessing
in itself because it allowed.You know, I have to smile because

(29:20):
I can't tell you how manytimes I've seen marriages break up
over stuff when somebody wasstruggling and the mental health
issues and the aspects ofsomebody trying to come out of or
crawl out of that. That arena,and they gave up. So I'm happy for
you that they, that they stuckwith you.

(29:42):
Yeah. Just. That's the besttwo gifts God ever gave me. And I
tell people I've been calledflying, especially with call sign.
Right. And Uncle Tito was oneof them. And, you know, all these
different call signs you get,and the most important one I put
in a book there is this whenmy daughter called me dad, you know,
so that's. That's everything.
Yeah. My oldest daughter isthe one that got me out of a wheelchair,

(30:04):
so I can relate to that. Yep.She looked me square in the eye and
I said, what do you wantgetting married? I said, what do
you want for a weddingpresent? She goes, put your hand
on each one of the. My arms ofthe. And leaned me right in the face
and said, I want you to walkme down the aisle.

(30:25):
It's like, that's awesome.
Slap me in the face.
Oh, yes. Those daughters havea way to motivate us dads, you know,
And I'm very, very thankful.I'm sure you are for yours. That's
awesome story, Michael.
I am, I am, I am. Let's talkabout other veterans, you know, and
how this can help otherveterans and those individuals or
first responders that are.That are suffering from the same

(30:47):
thing. You know, they say thehardest battle begins after they
come home. For you, that meantfacing trauma and addiction and the
loss of identity. And when youlook back upon that, is there anything
there that you can bring forthto help anyone else that's kind of
starting to experience this inparticular, what's the first step

(31:09):
that they should take?
The first step is arecognition, whether that comes from
a family member, friend, oreven yourself, you know, and I tell
people that, you know, like Iwas saying earlier, this. In this
life, right. You know,sometimes you see the very worst
things that could happen tosomeone. And I don't wish that on
someone. And you know, allthis, all this stuff, everything
is against you. Even flying,right? You could be flying. You could

(31:30):
have merchant procedures,weathers, communications, every against.
Everything's against you. And.But that day, what I've. What I've
learned about, and I call ittouching the face of God, is that's
the day where everyone thatdepends on you needs you to be your
very best. And, and in thatdarkest moment, you know, your friends
will pull you out and, andjust seek help and, and ask for it.
Don't be afraid to do that.
Well, I think, I mean, you'vebecome an advocate for mental health.

(31:50):
And. And I think I saw youpitched. When you pitched me, you
were talking about your bookin the aspect of mental health, which
unfortunately, it's not alwaysrecognized from that perspective.
We don't think. We. You and Irecognize this because we've experienced
it both personally as well asfamilial wise. Like I said, my family

(32:12):
goes way back, so weunderstand the mental health aspect
of coming home, the mentalhealth aspect of trying to recover
from what you've seen, kind ofreliving those stories over and over
again. The veterans who feelisolated, and sometimes you feel
isolated and ashamed. I toldyou, I mean, I did. Even with my

(32:32):
own stuff, I felt embarrassed.What happened to me because my injury
was. Because it was a mistakethat I made. And that mistake did
what it did. So I felt guiltyabout that for the longest time.
The book, how long did it takeyou to write the book?
So from pen to paper, it wasabout seven months, you know, for

(32:55):
a book in hand. Right. But Iknow that's relatively fast, but
again, I had a lot of thatwritten down for my, you know, my
sister.
Journaling.
Yeah, journaling. And then atleast what I thought was enough for
a book. And I'll be honest,it's a very short read. It's probably
a Sunday read. And I reachedout to a war journalist, Holly McKay,
on LinkedIn, of all things,and I was in. I was in Walmart and
I sent it. And then a fewminutes later, she messaged me back,

(33:18):
I have an appointment. Andwhat it was, was there's this word
document back and forth, youknow, hey, can you elaborate on this?
What does this really mean?What are you trying to say here?
And help me say the loud partout loud. Right. And really pull
those hard words out of me.And. And then she recommended a publisher,
which gave me the hardware,the beautiful cover of the book and
everything like that. And,yeah, it was about seven months,
which is relatively fast.
Was that. Did that help youkind of free yourself a little bit?

(33:42):
Yeah, because it gave me adeadline, it gave me a goal. Right.
Like, I want to answer thesequestions. Yeah. By this date and
put it in the best words Ican. And, yeah, it gave me something
to look forward to and, youknow, just a purpose. Again with
that, you know?
Yeah. Do you. Do you plan on.I mean, had you ever thought you
would ever be an author? Imean, is that something that just

(34:02):
kind of. No.
So. So I probably, to behonest, he's still reading around
the fifth Grade level, man.The Appalachia. Somehow I got a book.
But, yeah, even when I wasyounger, I wrote a poem. My publishers
told me, man, it's like, Ithink you're a poet. I don't see
that. But, yeah, I think I'vealways had that sort of these, These.

(34:22):
These darkest moments in thesewords, in a way to paint that picture
with the words. And I enjoy writing.
So, you know, sometimes I. Ithink, to me, my. My father was a
journalist, and I grew up withwriting. I grew up in a newsroom.
He died at a very young age,and I was a very young age, but the
time that I spent with him inthe newsroom was valuable to me because
what I saw was a room. Now,this is going to age me a little

(34:45):
bit. And it was a room full oftypewriters. They didn't have computers
at the time, See. So what youheard was 30. 30 people tapping on
a, you know, a typewriter allthis time putting out news stories.
And it's interesting becausewhat he told me was the written word
has the ability to communicateto the masses all at once in such

(35:08):
a way that it resonatespersonally. And you can touch their
heart, their mind and theirsoul with what you put down on a
piece of paper. So you.Finding that purpose allows you to
take your stories, I think,and you can touch people in their
heart and their soul and givethem a message of hope and not perfection.

(35:32):
And that you. You. You can.There's a light at the end of the
tunnel.
Yeah. And I think when youwrite those words, right. Whether
it's typewriter, computer,even a pen and. Pen and pad, right.
It's. You're putting that, youknow, you're. You're putting those
words in eternity at thatpoint, you know, and when I say bleed
it on the page, that. That's agood way of how you said it, that
that's what I'm getting at there.

(35:53):
Well, I. And I. You put yoursoul on the page humming.
Yeah.
You tell them stories thatother individuals only experience
in the movies, on a TV series,or in the movies or from a book.
But you're giving them thereal deal, which I think. What kind
of other things do you do thathelps you with mental health advocacy

(36:15):
with other veterans.
Yeah. So I did actually myfirst book signing in Silver, North
Carolina. And what was coolabout that moment was there was.
It was a civilized bookstore.There was veterans, people that joined
like, even, like the MarineCorps. I didn't even know that they
were in the whole time I wasin Right. And, you know, so we got
to trade stories and one ofthe common text and emails and themes

(36:36):
I get from even men and women.I used to fly with, like pilots,
like, hey, they were like, youknow, we appreciate you doing this.
We've all like, I felt thisway a long time. I just haven't seeked
help yet. And then they dothat, you know, and you see the fruits
of that, you know, so. And,you know, and I did get a phone call,
3M phone call, right where I.I had to talk to one of my really
good friends off the ledge.But, you know, it was a very emotional

(36:58):
moment there. But he. He gothelp, got him to the va, got him
to the hospital. So, yeah,those two things. And then in April,
I'm trying to. To get to. Backto Asheville, North Carolina, with
hopefully they'll let me speakthere. I'm talking to someone about
that now in the V8.
Yeah, I think that would be anext step, a very profound next step
for you to be able to take itpersonally because it. It's a lot

(37:20):
easier when you're at leasttalking to a group of people that
really understand from whatyou went through, because not everybody
really, you can tell somebody,but if they haven't experienced it,
like you experienced it insome form or another, it's difficult
to really have a deeperunderstanding. So that would be,
I think, really good way todoing it.

(37:41):
Oh, yeah.
What does healing look likefor you today? What does it mean
to build a life beyond thebattlefield now are.
Because, yeah, that healingnow is being the. Being the best
dad I could be, best friend Icould be someone best wingman, as
cliche as that sounds, and,you know, best husband I could be.
And just to be there forsomebody on those darkest moments,
the best way I can, you know.

(38:02):
So do you. You. Are youplanning another book?
Yeah, yeah, I'm actuallyworking on one now. And I've been,
to be honest with you,dragging my feet. I need to get back
into that. And I'm also doingthe Operation Song where they pair
you up with a writer and gotsomething really cool coming out
with that hopefully soon, so.
Oh, very cool. So youdefinitely found a new purpose.

(38:22):
Oh, yeah, Yeah. I think that,you know, it's not about me or anything
like that in my career. It'sabout like, you know, even the people
coming in the military thesedays. Right. Like they're going to
have their war. I mean, youknow, I think Plato said only dead
have seen the end of war.Right. And it's a point to you have
to take that tactical pausethat knee and realize and the signs
and symptoms like you'resaying and to take that leap and

(38:43):
to get, to choose better over bitter.
Better over bitter. I've notheard that. I think I like that.
Well, I don't think I likethat. I like it.
Yes. So I, you know, I wentthrough my, I'm going through this,
this drinking phase my lastyear and really my darkest moments
there. And I reached out to apastor and asked, you know, why is

(39:05):
all this stuff, I'd lost alung too, which all that stuff was
going on in 2020. And I said,why is all this happening? You know,
and he gave me the best wordsI've ever heard. He's like, you know,
he's like, Anthony's like lifecircumstances can make you better
or better. The choice isyours. And I chose better.
I think we all have a choicein life. I, I, that's one thing that
I have learned over myjourneys, is that we all have a choice.

(39:27):
And we can choose to step,move forward or we can choose to
stay and wallow. And movingforward is always a better option.
Always a better option. Howcan we find out more about your book
and your journeys?
You can find my book onAmazon. It's a Moon Child the Roots
and wings of a US Air ForceCombat Special missions aviator.

(39:47):
And I will make sure thatthere's links in the show notes to
make sure they can get to iteasy with a word, a click, make it
easy easy for them. And theycan find you on Instagram as well
and some of the other socialmedias. Do you miss flying?
Every day. You know, and I wasblessed enough to get a job here

(40:08):
in the flight simulators atCanada Air Force Base. And I still
get to not really fly, but dothe, this virtual reality, basically
this 80 million dollar videogame with some of the men and women
I used to fly with. So it'salways awesome when I get to do that.
That's very cool. Do you havea pilot's license yourself?
Do I have, what's that?
Do you have a pilot's license?
No. No. So I was never apilot. I was a gunner. Pride here,

(40:32):
aero gunner and specialmissions aviator. So listen, I was,
I was, they call it, you know,sometimes refer to the sweaties of
the crew. I look like a coalminer at the end of a mission.
That's the way Danny, myfather in law, I mean he, he worked
the back end but he, when hegot out, he went and got his pilot's
license because he just lovedflying and wanted to continue to

(40:52):
keep flying because he said,you know, I just like being up in
the air. So he went and gothis pilot's license and enjoyed it.
But now he's too old. He'slike, 84. Yeah, 84. He won't hear
this.
I appreciate. And Iappreciate, you know, his service
and your service as well,Michael. And you know that it's always,

(41:13):
always coming for us that laidthat foundation for all this. Right.
And that's why we're free.
Thank you very much. And I'msure that your ancestors. My ancestors
were. We're all listening, sowe appreciate that. Listen, this
has been. This has been reallygreat. I appreciate you sharing everything
with us and your wisdom andyour methodologies. But this is one

(41:36):
more thing before you go. Sodo you have any words of wisdom?
Yeah, I would say the quote ofHenry Ford. Whenever everything's
going against you in life, youhave all these troubles, tribulations.
Remember, an aircraft takesoff against the wind, not with it.
Profound words of wisdom.Profound words of wisdom. Well, again,
honestly, Anthony, thank youvery much for reaching out. Thank

(41:57):
you for being on the show,sharing your wisdom and your journeys.
I wish you well on yourcontinued journey because it is a
continued journey, and I knowthat you're going to succeed. I can
see your resilience. You exudeit, and I know that you will succeed
in overcoming it. So thank youfor adapting and overcoming, and

(42:18):
thank you for moving forwardin life.
Thank you, Michael. It was areal privilege and honor to be here.
Thank you so much.
Today we learn that courageisn't just found in the missions
that we fly or the battles wefight. It's found in the honesty
to face our wounds, thestrength to ask for help, as we've
just spoken about a little bitago, and the willingness to rebuild
a life from the inside out.Anthony, your story reminds us that

(42:40):
healing is not linear, it'snot quick, it's not easy, but it
is possible. So thank you verymuch for sharing your journey, your
wisdom, and you're coming outfrom the dark into the positive light.
Thank you, Michael.
Have a great day. Have a greatweek, and thank you for being here.
You too, brother. Thank you.

(43:01):
Some battles happen in theopen. Some happen in the dark. Some,
the hardest ones happen in thequiet moments when no one's watching.
Anthony's journey shows usthat the fight to come back home
is just as real as the fightto survive. And sometimes the bravest
thing that we can do is totell the truth. So that's a wrap

(43:22):
for today's episode. I hopeyou found inspiration, motivation,
and a few new perspectives totake with you. If you enjoyed this
conversation, be sure to like,subscribe and follow us. Stay connected.
You can find us on Apple,Spotify or your favorite listening
platform, and you can headover to YouTube and catch the full
video version. So have a greatday, have a great week, and thank

(43:44):
you for being part of ourcommunity. Until next time, I'm Michael
Hurst. This is One More Thingbefore you go.
Thanks for listening to thisepisode of One More Thing before
youe Go. Check out [e-mail] youm
can find us as well assubscribe to the program and rate
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