The Soul of Irish Traditional Music with Tara Connaghan

What does it mean to carry a culture in your hands — and in your sound? In this intimate and cinematic conversation, Michael sits down with Tara Connaghan, an award‑winning Irish traditional fiddler, educator, podcaster, and cultural storyteller from County Donegal. Tara’s life is shaped by music, memory, landscape, and the deep-rooted traditions of Ireland’s northwest coast.

Together, we explore the emotional and historical threads woven into Irish traditional music — from the ancient tunes passed down through generations to the modern artists keeping the tradition alive. Tara shares stories of growing up in Donegal, the mentors who shaped her, the unique regional styles of Irish fiddle playing, and the spiritual connection between music, identity, and place.

Takeaways:

1. The essence of Irish traditional music lies in its deep emotional and historical connections, reflecting the intricate relationship between culture, landscape, and identity.
2. Tara Connaghan's journey as a fiddler exemplifies how personal experiences and communal traditions shape artistic expression and belonging.
3. Irish music sessions serve as communal spaces where unspoken rules govern participation, emphasizing the importance of listening and awareness in fostering connection.
4. Through storytelling and music, individuals find healing and a sense of belonging, demonstrating the universal power of sound to transcend cultural boundaries.
5. Mentorship and community play pivotal roles in preserving cultural heritage, as seen in Tara's upbringing in Donegal and her dedication to teaching.
6. Engaging with music requires a balance of humility and confidence, as newcomers learn to navigate the dynamics of communal musical expression.

This is a warm, lyrical, deeply human conversation — one that invites you to slow down, listen closely, and feel the heartbeat of a culture through the hands of one of its finest carriers.

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Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Hey, one more Thing before yougo. There are places in the world
where words aren't the firstlanguage, where belonging isn't spoken
but felt. Irish traditionalmusic sessions are one of those places.
Communal, emotional, andalive. But beneath the music lies
something deeper, the quietrules that shape who we are allowed
to be, how we enter a space,and what it means to belong. Today,

(00:22):
we're going to explore howculture teaches us to listen, how
anxiety hides in the pauses,and how music, in all of its universality,
reveals the stories we don'tknow how to say out loud. I'm your
host, Michael Hirsch. Welcometo One more thing before you go.

(00:51):
Today we are asking twoguiding questions. How do we learn
to belong in an unfamiliarworld? And what can music teach us
about the unspoken storiesbeneath human connection? Our guest
is someone who lives at theintersection of culture, identity,
and sound. Tara Conahan is aprofessional Irish traditional fiddler
and a podcaster whose workexplores how people navigate the

(01:13):
quiet rules of social spaces,especially the emotionally charged
world of Irish music sessions.And I'm excited to have this conversation.
Welcome to show Tara.
Hello, Michael. How are you?
I'm doing outstanding. It is abeautiful day here. It's not too
hot in Arizona. We just had ahot spell. It's a little cooler this

(01:35):
morning, so. Yeah, I'm good.How about yourself?
I think it's raining outside. Yeah.
Well, if you could send that alittle bit our way, that would be
appreciative and it could helpyou and help us see.
Exactly. Well, that's why it'salways green here, because there's
lots of rain.
That's my favorite color,green. So I think that it would work

(01:57):
for me. It would work for me.One of these days, I'm going to get
back to Ireland. I'm going togo see Ireland. I'm going to go visit
it. I'm going to enjoy it. I'mgoing to get into some old family
roots and stuff. So I'll lookforward to the green.
Brilliant. Come and visit.
Well, I always like to kind ofstart at the beginning a little bit.
So I know that you're fromIreland. Obviously, you're born,

(02:18):
raised in Ireland. Right. Tellus a little bit about your family
and your history and how thatgot you into the traditional Irish
music.
That's a good question. Ithink I liked music from a young
age. It just, you know,people. There are people who kind

(02:39):
of gravitate towards it andkind of they feel the music. Actually,
Irish dancing was where I cameabout music first. So a lot of young
Girls, especially young girlsthat would be now my age, around
the 50 mark. We all kind ofdid Irish dancing as young girls.
And all the boys play, all theboys would play football and that

(03:01):
would be Irish football, theGaelic football or hurling. So I
would have heard the musicwhen I was dancing to it. And it
was said that I had goodrhythm. So I love the rhythm. I just,
you know, you could feel themusic and. And then I started to
play, I think it was theguitar. And my sister, who was a

(03:22):
year younger than me, startedplaying the, the fiddle and then
I started playing the flute,the classical flute and the, the
classical piano as well. So Idid all the grades and those. But
when I was about, well, my,actually my season, my sister used
to teach me a little bit ofthe fiddle as she was learning it,
and I would teach her a bit ofthe guitar. You know, we kind of

(03:43):
swap over what we had kind ofdone that week in the class. And
that was when I was about 9,10, when I was 11, my. My sister,
who was a year younger thanme, passed away from. She had, she
had had a heart condition frombirth and she went into an operation
and sadly didn't come out ofit. And so I suppose that was a bit

(04:06):
of a traumatic experience formy parents mostly. I think, I think
as a, as an 11 year old, youknow, you just don't see the bigger
picture. It's just. Yeah, itwas sad, but it was, it was. The
sad thing, I think for, forbeing a kid was watching your parents

(04:27):
live through it becausethey're almost not your parents at
that time. You know, whenthey're going through that phase,
they're almost not yourparents. Grief.
I'm sorry. I'm sorry that that happened.
Yeah.
Grief is, Grief is a. Grief isan ugly monster sometimes. And I
definitely understand it. Myparents, I lost a brother the same

(04:51):
way. Very, very, very youngage. So I understand that. I understand
that perspective of it. It'svery hard on the parents because
obviously you know, you losethat. But did you find kind of solace
in music from that point on?
I guess I did, maybe. Or maybeI didn't even think about it that
way. I actually found that Ineeded to escape. When I was about

(05:15):
17, 18, I went to. I kind ofwent as far away as I could just,
you know, because being athome was kind of a bit painful, so
just kind of get away. Sorry,this is kind of emotional, but about
a year after my sick sisterpassed away, the fiddle teacher,
who is a lovely man, and heasked my Mother, he really needed

(05:40):
some three quarter sizefiddles for the next batch of students,
the younger students and mymother, we had one from my sister
and he asked if she would sellit. And then I think he kind of maybe
felt guilty and said, or, youknow, maybe Tara would like to play
it or something. But he didn'twant it. To see it going to waste
is maybe what he was morethinking of. So she then said, oh,

(06:04):
well, I'll ask Tara becauseI'm, you know, she really did not
want to sell it. So she askedme. And at that stage I was playing
the guitar, the piano and theflute. And so I said, sure. What's
another instrument
all the way around? I mean,obviously. Well, I think once you

(06:25):
get into something like that,it's only natural to kind of experiment
with other instruments to findout what resonates with you and,
you know, what feels good tothe soul.
Yeah, and I started with the,all the, you know, the Suzuki method
and you know, so the TwinkleTwinkle and the Lightly Robot. Actually
my sister had taught me those.So I was just like, you know, if

(06:47):
we don't move on quickly, Ithink after about two weeks I was
like, if we're not moving onto something else, I'm out of here.
And I said, even give me Irishmusic. Anything, just not this. So
we started playing a few Irishtunes or he started teaching me a
few Irish tunes and then Ikind of picked those up pretty quickly.

(07:08):
And he then moved me into thenext class above to the more advanced
students. One of my bestfriends from school was in that class
and I really think schoolfriends or friends, what keeps you
going as well? So there waskind of then a bit of, you know,
natural banter and a littlebit of natural competition, you know,
not, not very competitive, butjust natural friendship and you know,

(07:31):
egging each other on andboosting each other on. So yeah,
we, I loved it and. But I wasvery lazy. And around the age of
16, the other, the other girl,Denise is her name, fiddle player
as well, great fiddle player.And her dad, Johnny, who's alive

(07:53):
and well today, he's a greatman. He used to run the hotel here
in Glentys and he would takeus to festivals and to sessions and
he was very well respected.You know, people would love to see
him coming, that. He'd loveto. They'd love to see him coming
with the two of us with thefiddles as well. So we'd play a few
tunes and. But there was onefestival, it was at Easter weekend

(08:17):
with some of the members ofAlton, which is a very well respected
Irish traditional music groupwho are from the same areas we are
from in Donegal and they weredoing a teaching workshop and we
went to the workshops and Imean, I was hooked. That was it for
me. It was like, oh my God,this, look at how much fun they're
all having. I was like, ohyeah, I could do this for the rest

(08:38):
of my life. So I, I justthought, yeah. And I went back to
the music teacher and I said,I really want to learn this tune.
And I gave him the, the nameof a tune. It was actually a. Is
it a Cape Breton tune? It'scalled Brenda Stubbarts. It was one
of, from an Alton album yearsago. And, and so he knew, he could

(08:59):
see I was hooked. I mean I,because I was, I, you know, I didn't
shut up the whole class. I waslike, oh my God, I was so good. It
was so, so, so he knew I washooked. And the following week he
still didn't give me the tune.And the week after, my friend Denise
was playing the tune and I waslike, Denise, where did you get the
tune? And she said, oh, Seamusgave it to me. As in the music teacher

(09:23):
gave it to me last week. Didshe, did he not give it to you? And
I was like, no. What, what doyou mean? So I went over, I marched
over, you know, my little 16year old, Tara, why did you not give
it to me? Why did I not getthe tune? I said, tara, because you
don't practice when youpractice, I'll give you the tune.

(09:45):
So, and I was really upset forlike two weeks and I didn't go back
to class for two weeks. And I,in that two weeks I put on, I suppose
necessity is the mother ofinvention. I had a hi fi system and
I had a CD player and I putthe CD on and I put a blaring blast

(10:06):
and really, really loud. Soloud that my mother was in the kitchen
below the bedroom and shewould bang the, the broom above on
the ceiling and shout up. Youthink you'd do something good like
practice, practice your piano.So that would make me actually practice
the fiddle even more. So Iwould, I was playing along to the
cd and it was great because itwas, it was almost like I was recreating

(10:30):
a music session in my bedroomand it was making me more comfortable
playing it. I was then pickingit up as we were going along and,
and I just kind of picked upso that two weeks later I went to
the class and I had alreadypicked up the tune, he gave it to
me. I said, it's okay, I'vealready picked it up. And I just
thought in those two weeks,let nobody ever say to me again that,

(10:52):
you know, that you're not.You're not doing it, you're not practicing.
I just thought, no one's goingto say that to me again, so well
done.
Well, then, take that, Seamus.
And Seamus is a lovely, lovelyman. Oh, no, good on Seamus. Fair
play to him. Because I neededthe kick up the bum and I think he

(11:13):
knew I needed it.
So give it a little extranudge in the right direction. I think
sometimes we all need that.Yes, we do. Yeah, I know that Irish
tradition. Give us a little.Let's talk a little history, if you
don't mind. I was. Traditionalmusic is not just an art form, but
it's a way of understandingpeople and kind of a communication
thing that my kids grew up. Weall grew up with. My girls were in

(11:34):
the dance and my girls had.They got into Irish dancing as well.
The school they went to, theelementary school and the junior
high they went to, it was kindof. They had the same teacher over
several classes in regard tothat. And one of them, she was like
a brilliant. And she did Irishdancing, she taught Irish dancing.

(11:54):
Well, that got the kids moreinterested, obviously, a little bit
deeper level. So we startedlearning a little bit about the history
of Irish dancing and a littlebit about the music. But I think
music has got a deeperconnection, does it not? Or is it
kind of equal?

(12:14):
Well, I mean, I would alwaysthink of the music as a dance music.
You know, it has a function asa dance music, but it also has a
function that, like, the songis there as well. So I suppose the
song maybe came first and thenit would be kind of transferred into
the. The melodies. But Ithink, you know, you could. You could
dance for. For the. The songsas well, you know, so. Which chicken

(12:37):
and egg. Which came first?
Yes. You know, I thinkpersonally, like the stuff that I've
learned and stuff that I enjoymyself as well. And in regards to,
I think that any. Whether itbe dance or music and art, even art,
you know, if you're watchingart being created or something be
created, I think it said it isa universal language in all aspects

(13:00):
of it. I think that. And a lotof it intermingles within itself
and they're all interconnectedbecause the creative arts allow us
as human beings to be able toconnect on different levels that
we normally wouldn't be ableto connect on or that we don't quite
understand how to connect. Nomatter what culture we come from,
we can understand music andstorytelling from a music perspective,

(13:21):
which I appreciate from whatyou do. I've listened to several
of your sessions in yourfiddle playing, and I think that
you understand. And obviously,I think it's a little subjective
as well as objective. A littlesubjective because each person can
get something out of the musicthat fits them from that which I

(13:43):
appreciate. You describesessions as a communal, emotionally
charged space. What makes themso unique compared to other musical
environments? For example, youselected the fiddle, but you can
play the guitar, you can playthe piano. Why the fiddle in particular?

(14:04):
I think it was the one that Icould. It's the one that just. That
I could play, you know, thatjust worked. Although the guitar.
I do. I did love the guitarwhen I was younger, and I was pretty
good at it. And then when Ireally got into the Irish music,
I just wanted to play themelodies, and I couldn't get enough.
I just wanted more and moremelodies. It was just. I couldn't

(14:25):
be enough of melodies. And so,yeah, the guitar was just. It was
just two in the background. Ijust want to, you know, just to be
in the core of it, in thethick of it. So, yeah.
Do you think. I mean, from aperspective of looking at. In comparison
with Irish music, I'velistened to a lot of it myself. I

(14:47):
told you, my stepfather was anIrish tenor.
He.
And he really took that to alevel because I could listen to him.
We could listen to him sing indifferent events and so forth, and
it was all Irish music inregard to that. So I got the benefit
and the pleasure of listeningto a variety of it. Do you think,
how does that compare to,let's say, American folk music is

(15:10):
kind of similar, like, folkkind of music?
Well, I mean, I think everymusic and every music session has
its own etiquette, so its ownkind of communal. So I mean, I can
only speak for Irish musicbecause I. I don't really play anything
else, But I do know that thereare, you know, there's definitely
etiquette to even join inorchestras or etiquette to join in

(15:33):
jam sessions. And even thoughpeople think, oh, they're just anybody
can join, but actually, whenyou dig down deeper, there'll always
be something like, oh, Iwouldn't have done that. And if you're
a kid growing up in thatenvironment, the elders will be able
to tell you and say, oh, no,you know, wait there now. Wait your
turn, or wait, you know. Butas an. As an adult, Coming into that

(15:53):
space as a newcomer, it's veryhard to say, maybe just wait a little
minute because it just soundsso wrong to be saying that to your
peers, you know, as an, anadult peer rather than a, a music
skill peer. So it's justreally difficult.
Well, I think that that comeswith like a belong. Everybody wants

(16:15):
to belong. Everybody wants tobelong, especially if they, if they
see something or hearsomething. You know, we want to participate,
we want to get involved withit. It resonates with us to a point
at least from my perspective.It resonates with the point that,
hey, I would love to do that,I would love to get in the middle
of that. I want to jump intothe middle of that. But I think that,
like you just mentioned, Ithink that we sometimes would have

(16:37):
to take a pause and listen andjust enjoy listening. And then in
how it's presented, whether ornot I fit with that environment,
whether or not I should be onthis side of it or, or this side
of it. From your perspective,what does listening mean in Irish
music culture?

(16:59):
I think listening means alsobeing aware as well, being aware
of yourself and being aware ofthose around you and just maybe also
having that listening donebeforehand as well. Because it, you
know, if you just go in andyou've, you know, Irish, that's the
first Irish music sessionyou've ever been to. You say, but

(17:21):
sure, I'll join it anyway be,you know, better if you kind of listened
a bit beforehand and knew themusic a little bit beforehand as
well. So it's the same as, asme going to a, like a, an old timey
session. I mean the music isfabulous, but I'm not going to jump
in because I just don't knowenough about it. So I think it's

(17:42):
a bit about being self aware,reading the room and just kind of
people say what is reading theroom? And it's a really hard thing
to even break down into whatis reading the room. Yeah, you're
kind of just, yeah, you'rewatching, you know, what's, what,
what's going on and you know,and who, who is, who is communicating

(18:05):
with, with each other. And Ithink it's always fascinating to
just be a people watcher firstor a session watcher. I think actually
I might, I might coin thatterm a session watcher.
Session watcher. You got it.You. Yeah, and you have it on record
right here. You, it's yours,you own it.
I'm gonna write this one down actually.
Well, you know, it is, I mean,as similar as like, look I, I, I,

(18:26):
I watch Mick Jagger or anynumber of other, but I would never
jump up on stage with MickJagger. I'll sing along in the car,
I'll sing along in the livingroom. But, you know, I get up, and
if he says, hey, come on up,I'd be like, no, I don't fit up there.
Thank you very much. But I'llsit back here and listen and enjoy.

(18:48):
You know, music communicateslong before anyone speaks. How do
you see music functioning as auniversal language as we spoke about
earlier? Only from what I'velearned and what I feel. I feel that
it is a universal language inregard to, you know, as storytelling.
I mean, every, every music, nomatter where it's played or how it's

(19:12):
played, and from everyculture, I believe that music is
storytelling. In storytelling,from who you lost, who you love,
who you're angry at, the wholegamut of everything, it shows emotion,
it shows feeling, it shows,you know, wanting, needing and belonging
to. So how do you see musicfunctioning as a universal language?

(19:35):
Maybe. Can I get yourperspective on that? Yeah, I mean,
can I add something to it realquick? I'm sorry. Especially in spaces
where, like, people areanxious or unsure, like we just talked
about. I can go to a concertand I would love being at the concert,
but there's no way I can jumpup in the middle of that concert

(19:55):
up on stage. But, but I lovelooking at it from this perspective,
or I can resonate from this perspective.
I think maybe the bit before.The universal language of music is
the universal language ofpeople on a communal space. So I
don't think it's actually themusic that is.

(20:15):
You think it.
I think it's the people. Youknow, it's the people. It's the social
side of it first. Because it'snot just the music that has kind
of like, put the barriers upor whatever. It's more kind of a
let's respect the people whoare doing something that is, you
know, existed before you'vecome to that space. So that's kind
of where I kind of come from.So there's the, the social. Yeah,

(20:38):
that, that's right.
And I would agree with that. Ithink that's why we all go to. We
all go to a concert. We all goto listen to music. We all go to,
you know, a bar or a patio ora park and want to be able to participate
in it together. You know, it'snot like an audience of one, it's
an audience of many.
Yeah, yeah.
So I totally, I agree withthat. When did you first notice that

(21:00):
the real story wasn't just themusic but the unspoken rules around
it?
Oh, I think maybe I was. Youknow, you're kind of told something
at an early age. Oh, maybewait your turn there for a little
second or hold off for, youknow, a minute or two or just wait
your turn or, you know, maybedon't sit in this one. So there's

(21:23):
all that kind of. You're,you're told that as a. As a younger
person. And then I noticedthat it was much harder to show people
that or maybe be as kind topeople when they're older. You know,
when you're an adult coming infrom that space. So it's just a lot
harder then they don't gettold that as a youngster because

(21:44):
they weren't in it. Maybe as ayoungster, so. So it's a lot more
difficult.
How does that play into. Ithink you talk about quiet rules
and unspoken norms that shapebehavior. What are some of the rules
in Irish sessions? Help meunderstand what Irish sessions means?
I had to say that slow so Ididn't get tongue twisted.

(22:08):
Well, an Irish music sessionis usually a place where. Where they
play Irish traditional music.So it's a split. It's a. I mean,
it's normally. Well, actuallythere's loads of different types
of Irish music sessions. Sothere's the one where. And this is
the one that I would be mostfamiliar with because that's the
kind of one that we have herewhere we have. Maybe we'll text a

(22:29):
friend who's a musician andwe'll say, oh, do you fancy a few
tunes? So it's like kind of anarrangement. It's almost like an
arrangement to meet for acoffee, but it's in a pub and. Yeah,
so it's more. But I will haveit. We'll play a few bits of music
while we're there or, youknow, so it's very loose. It's about
friendship and it's about, youknow, sharing something that, you

(22:51):
know, you know, it's almost.It is almost like a conversation,
like a musical conversation.And then there's kind of the. The
ones that are put on for maybethe tourists or, you know, that are
more like they're set at acertain time. So it's definitely
going to happen at 8 o' clockor it's definitely going to happen
at 10 o'. Clock. And so there,there's a little bit more pressure

(23:12):
on those ones, I think,because, you know, there's. There's
maybe Payment so that maybethe, the venue has given you payment
to be there. And so you kindof feel not too much pressure sometimes,
but, you know, maybe a littlebit of pressure that, okay, well,
these guys, you know, arepaying us money. They're probably
not taking in a lot of money,especially in the small rural fubs.

(23:35):
So you're like, well, we wantto make sure that, you know, they're
getting value for worth, youknow, value for their money. So we
play and play and, and ifanybody comes in, we'll ask them
to play and we'll ask them, dothey sing? Then there's the other
ones that are. Maybe the venuehas asked for them to play with microphones.
So that might be the, the onethat, you know, that it would be

(23:58):
like a semi concert, you know,semi formal, but it's not quite a
concert. Kind of somewherebetween a concert and a session.
So it's like a formalperformance of a session and they're
being paid to play. So that'sdefinitely a one where you kind of
don't really join in, but theother two are kind of ones that maybe
you could join in. The firstone where it's just friends who've

(24:20):
texted each other, that's kindof, you know, it's almost like you're
joining a group, you know,that are sitting around having drinks
together.
Almost like a jam session. Ilove musical. Musical conversation.
That's a brilliant. That'sbrilliant, actually. And here, it's
like a jam session here wheremy friends and I used to get together

(24:41):
and somebody pick up a guitar.My brother would do it, or I used
to play guitar. I don't do itanymore. It's been a really, really
long time because of myarthritis. But, you know, you'd pick
it up and you just startplaying and you know, that kind of
thing. So, yeah, musicalconversation. That's brilliant.
Yeah, it is. A lot of peoplesay, you know, I can't, I can't claim

(25:02):
ownership of that one. It'sbeen around the block for a while.
When people are trying todescribe the etiquette and they say,
if you wouldn't do it in aconversation, don't do it in a, in
a session.
Yeah, that works. Why do youthink capable people, talented people
struggle in these kind of environments?

(25:26):
I mean, that's, that's thereal thing. That's the real difficulty
because some of them could beso, you know, they're so good at
their jobs and really, reallywell respected. And then it's like
a new, total new environment.They just struggle to read the room.
And maybe there's an elementof. I suppose maybe people who are

(25:46):
so good at what they do, maybethere's an element of. On the spectrum
of autism, possibly. Sothey're maybe really good at focusing
on certain things, but maybenot so good at social side of things.
Now that's me just throwingthat out. That could be totally wrong.
But I'm just trying to, youknow, and maybe it's. It's definitely

(26:09):
because they haven't grown upin it. That's the main reason, I
think, you know, they justhaven't been the kid. They haven't
been allowed that space wherethey can be the beginner as a child,
where the elder can go, waityour turn, hold on, don't play yet.

(26:29):
And that's the main reason as well,
because I think anxiety showsup. I mean, in any environment, anxiety
shows up and anxiety plays afactor. You know, my wife hates crowds
and she gets very. She getsjust walking in a crowd. We go to
Costco, you know, hugeshopping center, Costco. And especially

(26:49):
if you go on a weekend andthere's so many people in there,
my wife gets anxiety evenbefore we walk in the door, just
with the anticipation ofwhat's going to happen. I think a
lot of people do that beforethey go in and play too.
Totally.
So, yeah, I agree.
I think the anxiety shows upbecause they're unsure of their environment.

(27:13):
Right.
In a session anyway, you know,there are just maybe elements that
they're not. Not sure of. Oneof them might be, am I good enough
to be here? You know, should Ibe playing yet? Should I be joining
this session? Are themusicians too good for. For me to
join? And that's a very validquestion. Do I know enough tunes
yet? I might be sitting herewith my instrument on my knee for

(27:36):
maybe the whole night. I mightonly play one tune and I might look
silly and people might think Ishould more, more. And that, you
know, there's the wholeimposter syndrome as well. I don't
know enough. And they justlead to anxiety. And as you say,
also before you even come inthe door, then you're kind of revisiting
those thoughts, going, I'mgoing to be like this or am I going
to be like that? Am I going tobe embarrassed? I'm just going to

(27:58):
be sitting there embarrassed,Am I?
Yeah, no, I. Yeah, I thinkthat happens to us. All that stuff
runs through our minds. And,you know, we always. We have to make
the choice as to whether ornot we're going to take the Step
out of that anxiety realm. Tostep up and do that or to play. Because
sometimes we don't alwaysthink that I'm. Well, we all have

(28:18):
gone there. I'm not goodenough. I can't do this or I can't
do that, or people can thinkI'm stupid, or what am I doing up
there? What's that guy doingup there? Kind of a thing. So. So,
yeah, I understand that. It's.It's. I think that's. How does that
play into cultural signals?Maybe somebody might misread. Do

(28:39):
you think there's. There's acultural aspect of it that definitely
as well?
Yeah, there's definitely acultural side of things as well,
because, you know, maybe inother sessions or other musics, people
would be kind of a little bitmore. Okay, they're a bit more kind
of direct. We're so indirecthere in Ireland. We're so subtle

(29:02):
and nuanced. And the numberone thing is that you would hate
to think that you've offendedsomebody. Usually that's. Now, that's
not to say that people don't.And look, I think the reason I've
started the podcast is becauseI have probably offended people in
some days at sessions, and Ifeel really guilty about it. And,

(29:24):
you know, you think you'retrying to be as nice as possible,
and somebody takes it reallybadly because I think they take it
really personally. You know,if a person is in. An adult has put
themselves into that space,they have invested so much in the
classes, and, you know,they've really invested in personal
development in this. And thensomebody goes and says, you know,

(29:48):
what are you doing there? Orcould you sit out for a moment? I
mean, that's the most horriblething to say, and it's the most horrible
thing to receive as an adult.It's just awful.
Well, it's not like karaoke.Somebody goes to a karaoke bar and
everybody's expecting somebodyto get up there. And it doesn't really
matter from that perspective,but I think from an environment where

(30:11):
you go in and join a group ofindividuals that are there, too,
to have a musical conversationthat you don't want to kind of throw
a wrench into that. You feelthat you don't want to throw a wrench
into that by going up thereand not being able to accomplish
what you need to do or hittingthe sour notes, that would be my
fear. It's like, nah, I can'tkeep up with him or her, and it's

(30:36):
me that you can hear thetwing, not the Outside the twang,
you know, and
most of the time, if it's veryquiet, people don't mind. You know,
we all had. We all had tolearn as well. But I think it's when
maybe it becomes too much orwhen it's constant all the time,
where maybe the skilledmusicians can't really get to play
at the level that they. Thatthey really want to. The odd time

(30:59):
or maybe a lot of the time,you know, that that's when there's
kind of a bit of a. Can be alittle bit, that the. The plates
will shift a little bit. Yeah,that is.
And I agree. My kids grew upin the. They grew up with dance from
age three. I got two girls, wehave two girls. And they grew up

(31:22):
from age three on up throughdance and through music and through
performance and through stagework and work, you know, doing in
plays and things like this.And we grew up with. My stepfather
was their grandfather. Myfather died at a very young age.
So they knew Burl as grandpa,period, kind of a thing. So we went

(31:44):
to, you know, Burl stuff too.And you know, Burle used to always
say listening is a form ofrespect, you know, and you know,
they were taught that to eachtime they had performances too. Don't
talk in a performance. Don't,you know, you get up if you're in
the audience, don't be havinga conversation kind of thing to the

(32:05):
person next to you whilethey're performing. Because you need
to have some respect, you needto listen, you need to pay attention
kind of thing. How does thatplay out in real time? Because obviously
as a performer, I've been upon that stage before and you have
these people out here makingnoise and talking and this kind of
stuff that are just listeningor appreciating or trying to learning

(32:26):
and you know, you kind of getlike, like you want to stop and go,
hey, you, hey, stop now. Thatwas the cop. Maybe that was the cop
coming out at me.
But yeah, yeah, like, itdrives me insane if I'm on stage
and somebody. Or even if I'msitting in the audience and somebody.
Somebody does, you know, istalking and I'm like, you know that

(32:47):
if that person on stage canhear you, then they're focusing on.
They can't be in flow. Yeah,it's like when you are. When you're
in flow, you're in a kind ofperipheral vision state. You're kind
of, you're. You're like atranscendent into some other space.
If you're focusing on like asit's this is why sometimes learners

(33:09):
and newcomers to music can'tget into the same flow is because
they're not at the skill levelto be able to let go of and then,
and go into the muscle memorystate where you're just in the flow.
So when you're in the flow onstage or even in a session, it's,
you know, you're great. You'renot even aware of the things around
you until somebody doessomething, you know, and it's, you

(33:33):
know. So sometimes if it's lowlevel conversation, it's fine, but
if somebody's sitting rightbeside the session and they're really
loud, then you're actuallytaking your focus away from being
in flow and you're focusing onthe thing you don't want to
focus on the wrong conversation.
And if you're on stage. Ohyeah. I find if I'm on stage now,
especially if I'm playingsolo, if somebody is, is doing a

(33:57):
solo performance on stage,even like an actor doing a monologue.
And that's why in theatersthey, you know, they don't allow
people in and out of the,during, during the performance because
it takes the attention awayfrom the, the person needs to be
in flow to give their bestperformance ever. And if they can't
be in flow, then they arefocused on, on the, the door opening.

(34:20):
They're focusing on thesomething, you know, the conversation
or the mobile phone that goesoff. Whereas look, in sessions we
don't really mind the mobilephone. But if you're at a concert
and
a mobile phone goes off, or isit even Broadway? Oh, I'm sorry.
I watched an actor on Broadwaywho literally famous. I can't remember

(34:43):
who it was. Famous femaleactor on Broadway. Somebody, somebody
was out, their phone rang andshe walked off stage, went down and
answered the phone and said,we're in the middle of a Broadway
show. Call back later, thankyou, and handed the phone back to
the guy, said turn it off andgot back on stage.

(35:05):
Yeah. And that probably itcompletely put, put that person off
their flow. And that's all wereally want. Because when you're
in flow, that's when you havethe magic of an Irish music session
and you just. That's. That is fabulous.
Yeah, I've listened to itmyself. I've not been been to one
in person from thatperspective, but I do listen to Irish

(35:26):
music and I've got some CDsthat are, that are a lot of Irish
music. So yeah, you get in themiddle of it, it enthralls you. It
Kind of draws you in. And evenfrom that perspective, it kind of
gives me a feeling ofbelonging. I told you, I've got Irish
in my background, in mygenealogy, so it gives me a little

(35:47):
bit of belonging. And I thinkthat music reveals, like. Can reveal
to us how we belong. Right?
Mm. Yeah. I love that. That'slovely. I haven't thought about that
too much before. That's really nice.
Yeah, thank you. I think.Yeah. I think we. And we all want
to belong. Everybody wants tobelong. We want to belong to something.

(36:08):
And if we can embrace aculture, embrace a music embase,
embrace a song, embracesomething, I think that kind of works.
Yeah. Because, I mean, I thinka lot of people did go away. You
know, the diaspora is so huge.A lot of people left during the famine
here in the 1840s-50s and 60sand 70s, and a lot of them never

(36:32):
came back. And that was theend of it. There was very little
here for them even. I'm just.I'm looking at a house here at the
moment, and there was 13people that lived in that house,
and only one of them stayed inIreland, and the rest were never
heard from again.
That's. I mean, that's. Wow.From a familiar perspective, you

(36:52):
know, there's a family lost.You know, it's family lost sometimes,
you know, and that's difficultto reconnect with that kind of family
and try to keep track ofeverybody and where they've gone.
And if you've lost them,whether it be through death or be
moving away or, you know,immigrating somewhere else, you know,

(37:14):
those. Those connections getlost and sometimes never get. Never
get re. Put back together,which is kind of a shame.
Yeah. I do think it's sad.
How do you think. How does.How does all this translate beyond
music? It's like workplacesand families and friendships, maybe
new culture environments. Ithink that's a nice segue into that.

(37:34):
I think it. How do you thinkthat all plays a factor?
Well, I think you probablyknow one of these very well is the
road, you know, etiquette onthe road. Haven't been a police officer.
Yeah, yeah. I mean, yeah, wejust like the etiquette on the road.
We can just be. So I think itall boils down to respect. As you

(37:57):
said earlier, it's all about respect.
Yes.
And if we don't have respectfor each other, then things aren't
going to work.
Respect is the word. You know,I think that we as a society and
culture have gone in such adirection. That's just my Personal.
My own perspective and my ownexperience, and especially in my

(38:19):
career in law enforcement,what we found is the majority of
miscommunications came fromdisrespect and not having the understanding
to have a civil conversationor. And that goes. Same thing on
the road, you know, And I willtell you, if you ever visit the Phoenix
metro area here in Arizona inthe United States, the one thing

(38:42):
that you'll learn really,really quickly is that there's not
a lot of respect on the roadhere. People drive like crazy, and
nobody has respect for anyoneelse on the road. Whether you're
trying to change lanes, brake,bull, and that. I mean, that's kind
of off of the music portion ofit, but.
Yeah, but it's still kind of.
Yeah, you can take that rightback into a performance and into

(39:03):
music, into, I think, from aperformer's perspective and as well
as from the individuals thatare taking that in. It's a shift
in awareness, and I think it'san ability for how we as people can
experience what's going on inthat environment with a group of

(39:24):
individuals that are there,that we're all enjoying the same
thing. And then I think thatit has to be a mutual respect of
what's going on from theperformer's perspective, the musical
perspective, as well as theaudience perspective. We're all there
for a purpose, and I thinkthat purpose is to belong to something
that allows us to enjoy or getaway from life for a little bit.

(39:47):
From those perspectives. I maybe getting too philosophical.
No, this is great. This is Brennan.
But I think that in thoseenvironments, we should, I think,
remember, we need to kind ofslow down a little bit and take the
time and learn respect,listen. And we would maybe have a

(40:11):
better understanding when wewalk away from a session, better
understanding when we walkaway from that and that opportunity
for us to be able to getinvolved and learn. I mean, I would
love to tour, to go to Irelandand just listen and watch. Like I
said, be people watcher.You're watching a cultural event

(40:34):
that translates to a universalcommunication that gives us emotional
depth to our soul. So, yeah.
Yeah. I think even, like, ifwe take that step back and just think
of it more as a communalthing, I think, because if. If we

(40:56):
don't, we're kind of lookingat the individual, and otherwise,
if we're looking at thecommunal, we can look at it and say,
what am I giving to this? AndI normally say that when I go into
a session, what. What can Igive to this session? Does it need
me to Be part of it, or wouldI be better serving this session
as person at the bar going, woohoo?
Yeah.
And maybe, you know, a lot ofthe times actually that's what I

(41:18):
do is I sit at the bar and I,you know, even though I don't really
drink, I'm not really adrinker, but. But I'd enjoy the music
or I'd enjoy watching thepeople. The people watching or the
session watching, or I'llenjoy the people, you know, the banter
at the bar or, you know, andthen I'd say, right, maybe it's time
to go home. I won't stay toolong, or something. But yeah, and
it's funny, there's a. I dofind from my, you know, it's one

(41:43):
of the things I've mentioned acouple of times in some of the episodes
of my podcast is what can Igive to the session? And so I have
found that people who aremaybe of a skilled level will probably
say the same. Most of them,actually, any of the guests I have
on will probably say similar,like, what can I give to this session?
And maybe it was because wewere taught to ask that question.

(42:06):
Don't go into it unless, youknow, you can give something. But
people who are coming to itnew are kind of saying, well, what
can this session give to mebecause I need to learn. And so maybe
that's the kind of. Maybewe've done that when we were younger
and we've moved on from thatnow, and we're more the care kind
of givers rather than takers.

(42:27):
No, I can, I can understandthat. I mean, as you know, growing
up in my environment, it wasalways including the reason I've
been police officer in thefirst place. From that perspective,
it was, what can I give back?What can I do for somebody? My protect
and serve was actually toprotect and to serve. And I do the
same thing with my family, mykids, my wife, my sister, my friends.

(42:50):
I try to daily, on dailybasis, I try to make sure that what
can I do for somebody todaythat might improve their life or
make them feel better? And Ithink going into a session like that
would be the same thing as alistener, as a participator. From
that perspective, my giving isgiving my time to enjoy what you're
bringing to me. My listening,my paying attention, my resonating

(43:16):
with your music, my enjoyingthe story that you're telling me
is, I think, me givingsomething back to you by paying attention.
I think because musically oremotionally, I think that, you know,
it helps me feel More groundedbecause I feel the communal aspect

(43:36):
of it. I feel the musicalaspect of it. I feel the opportunity
to be able to connect withpeople on a different level.
Yeah, totally. It's just evenas a listener, then you can still
be brought up in the flow ofthe things as well. Yeah, you can

(43:57):
be caught up in the, in the,the whole feeling of the buzz. Oh,
it's, it's just brilliant. AndI think, you know, even like a conversation,
when you're having a reallygood conversation, when are the times
that you have a really goodconversation? It's when everybody's
kind of contributing. It's notwhen you're just like on a solo rant
or a. You know, it's whenyou're, you're. You're both having

(44:18):
a good kind of conversationand keep given as much as, you know,
or if not more than you'retaken. So, yeah, yeah.
I think it's an opportunityfor us to be able to get involved
from a communal perspective.What can Irish sessions teach us
about being present withothers? I think we kind of talked
about it, touched about alittle bit of it brought up. I think

(44:40):
that question.
Yeah, I think that is it. Isuppose we just think about it. Think
about. Maybe it's the selfawareness thing. Think about us in
a greater communal sense. Andlike the us as musicians in a session

(45:00):
is the same as us as humans inthe world. What can we give to the
world?
How do we learn to belongwithout forcing others to. Forcing
ourselves to. I mean, I thinkthat what I get from part of our
conversation, what we've beentrying to figure out is we have those
individuals that go, Iabsolutely love this. We have those

(45:21):
individuals that. I want tolove this, but I don't know how I
can fit into that. Can youhelp us maybe learn how, how we can
belong without forcing that?
Well, I think it's about, forme, it's about having a bit of a
recce, so doing that a coupleof times. So go into a session maybe

(45:41):
three or four times before sothat you know what the session is,
that you maybe introduceyourself and say, look, I'm learning.
I'm learning the fiddle, orI'm learning the concertina, I'm
learning the flute, whateverit is. And I'd really love to join
at some stage, but I'm notsure if I'm ready yet. And I think
I read somewhere recently thesaying, if in doubt, reduce your

(46:03):
footprint. And I thought, oh,wow, that applies to music. Totally.
It applies to a session. Sojust, you know, take that Stop, step
back and. Because if you'rewilling to, to engage from a kind
of a. I, I love what you doand, and I'm, I'm learning. If I
can, you know, if I can atsome stage come to the session, I

(46:25):
would love that. And most like99% of the time people are going,
wow, that's great. Have yougot your instrument, you're pointer
to come in sometime and, andyou know what I would say is, yeah,
I will. Yeah. But I might comea couple of times just so that I
can learn. Would you mindactually if I maybe tape a couple
of this tune so I can learnthem? Because I don't know a lot
of the repertoire here, don'tknow many of the tunes here. So it's

(46:48):
just to make yourself feelmore comfortable so that when you
do go in that you a. You'vemet some of the people there and
they're, they're welcoming,they're. Because if you come back
four or five times withoutactually joining, that is a level
of restraint and there's arespect around that restraint, a

(47:09):
huge amount of respect forthat restraint. They'll then actually
almost take you under theirwings and say, would love, you know,
let's, let's help this personalong. What you know, do you know
this tune? Hi. About thistune. What if we play this tune?
Would you know this one? Sothey really start to be caregivers
then of the person who hasmost restraint and. Yeah, and then

(47:33):
even those tunes that you'vemaybe recorded on your phone or something,
take them home and play them,put them on loudspeakers and play
along as, you know, as much asyou can so that you're replicating
the environment so that whenyou go into the session then it's
not like this, oh, crazy spacethat, you know, you know, it's, it's
overwhelming and there's somuch to learn because if you think

(47:54):
of it, you know, you've justmaybe even taken up the instrument
for the first time. So, youknow, it's completely alien to you.
You've learned all these newtunes that are completely alien to
you. You then go into asession with new people that are
completely alien to you. In apub environment, maybe that's completely
alien to you. So there's somany overwhelming things that could
just derail a beginner. So Ialways trying to say, let's break

(48:16):
it down into and make it moresimple so that it's, it's more familiar.
And you go, oh, actually,sure, I, oh, this is the tune I'VE
learned this one, I've playedalong with it to the recording. So
I'm going to play along here.And they've met the people and they've,
they've given the restraint aswell. And then yeah, that for me
that's the way to do it.

(48:38):
I agree. I think it gives youan opportunity to get comfortable.
Comfortable with it,comfortable with ourselves within
it. I think it's pretty coolactually. What do you learn about
yourself through observing allthese dynamics? Have you evolved?
Definitely. And continue toevolve? I'm learning an awful lot

(49:00):
about. I'm doing a lot oflearning in the neuro nlp, Neuro
linguistic programming. Sothat I can I suppose help people.
Maybe there might be somethings that, like negative beliefs
that they might have. I'llnever be able to join or I'll never
be able to do this. And so I'mtrying to figure out what is there.

(49:20):
I'll never, you know, so thatwe can try and unblock that so that
they can then get into thesession and enjoy it. But usually
a lot of adult learners willsay, oh, I'll never get to that standard.
I mean that's just usuallywhat they'll say. And it's. Oh, it's,
it's heart wrenching because Ido know that it takes a lot of time.

(49:40):
It does take a lot of time.
Well, it's the old cliche thatgoes around that said you can't teach
an old dog new tricks, butreality, if you have the patience
to do it, you know, thetenacity to do it, you can teach
an old dog do tricks. I meanthat's a very mundane analogy but,
but true. I picked uplearning, you know, a new language

(50:03):
after 60 years old. So it'staken me a little longer to do it,
but I'm doing it. It's a slowprocess, but I'm still doing it.
So I won't say how far after60, but we'll say over 60.
Yeah, I think like if you trythe five minutes a day, like that
compounds over, you know, it'sthe same as if you put 5, 5 Euro
a day into an investmentscheme. It will compound over the

(50:25):
years. Yeah, the more you putinto it, I mean, the more it'll compound.
But even if it's at just five,ten minutes a day, it'll compound
over the year and then alittle cup, a couple of immersion
weeks or weekends or somethingto just kind of really, really boost
it together with other peopleto raise the level. It's like sprinting
when you're you know, doing amarathon or you're doing it. Well,

(50:48):
I didn't ever did a marathon.I did coach to 5k once, and I, I
heard that, you know, when youdid the sprinting, it would help
you kind of increase yourspeed. You do a little bit of sprinting
to, to and increase your, yourlung capacity. And so you kind of
doddle along at the, you know,5K through the rest of the year,
and then a couple of sprintsmaybe once a week or once every once

(51:11):
a month to try and get that upto speed. So that's kind of the same
as analogy for music as well.You kind of doddle along with five
or ten minutes every day andthen do the sprints.
It's an investment inourselves. Yeah, it's investment
in ourselves. I wholeheartedlybelieve that music touches our soul,

(51:32):
and I think that it's aninvestment. It's an investment in
ourselves. And on that note,if music truly is a universal language,
and from what we've just alltalked about with the universal language,
the connection, the communal,what is it trying to teach us about
that connection?
Whoa, now, that's a tough one.I suppose we're all. We're just all

(51:57):
in it together, is that. Ithink that's what it is. We're just
all in here together. We'renot on the journey alone. We're all
together. And if we're kindof. If we're willing to accept that
we're on the journey togetherand they're all going to die at the
end of this journey, I thinkthat gives you a freedom to just
relax, chill out and enjoy.

(52:21):
I think that works. Yeah, Ithink that works. And be able to
contribute to society in sucha way, in a positive way, and to
reap the benefits of that aswell. I believe before we wrap up,
we could talk for like anotherhour, but I'd love to, but, you know,

(52:41):
obviously, obviously. Butmaybe you can get back on another
time. We can have anotherconversation, continue it down the
road. But before we wrap up, Iwant to make sure the community knows
how to stay connected with youand where people can find you online
to listen to your podcast andexplore more of your work and all
that good stuff. So can youhelp us find out how to find you
and get in connection?

(53:01):
Yeah, I have a website, it'scalled www.sessionetiquette.com.
and on that you can get mycontact details. You can listen to
the. Listen to the podcastthere as well, because I do know
that a lot of my listenerswere not podcast Friendly. So they

(53:22):
didn't know what a podcastplatform was. They'd never used Spotify.
I'm talking about my motherhere. Or, you know, people similar
to my mother, actually, youknow, maybe only about a year before
I started, I started listeningpodcasts, so. And I had that kind
of block where I was like, oh,I don't know what a podcast is, and
I don't know where to get it.And there was just kind of like,
I don't know if I want to. AndI still know friends who don't want

(53:44):
to engage with podcasts. Andlike, okay, we can. You can just
go onto my website and you canlisten to it on there. Just like
a. With a, you know, MP3s. Orthere's. There's the players embedded
there, which they don't needto know, but they just press the
play button. So that's how mymother listens to it. And she. Yeah,
when she's cooking breakfast,she'll listen to my episodes.

(54:09):
That's cool.
So I'm also doing a couple ofworkshops and immersion weeks later
in the year as well, so that.Just to help people get over that
anxiety and.
Yeah, and I'll make sure. Ithink it's an opportunity in my lifetime.
I love opportunities becausewe have an opportunity to always.

(54:30):
If we grasp that opportunity,it gives us the ability to be able
to move forward in our livesor to attain something, to gain something,
whether it be knowledge,motivation, inspiration. So I think
that you're presenting anopportunity for people to be able
to get involved and to becomepart of your community, which is
a, you know, a brilliant thingto do. And your music is brilliant.

(54:51):
So they. They really. Theyreally should. They really, really
should.
Music is so good for the braincells. It lights up all the. Every
part of your brain. And it's.As a friend of mine is a music therapist
in Northern Ireland, she saysthat people, you know, when you're
younger, you engage withmusic, it's. It's there all the time.

(55:13):
And then some. Somehow it justkind of. We let it fade. We let it
kind of. Although I have.Because I. I'm a musician all my
life, but, you know, peoplemaybe might have started as music
as a younger person, and thenthey stopped when maybe the kids
came or they got married orwhatever. They got jobs, and they
just put the instrument awayin a box and never saw it again.

(55:33):
And they're just. It's like,where. Why did we allow ourselves
to let go of that? Becausemusic's so special. It's around for
the good Times it's around forthe bad. Times it's around for us
whenever we need. So
the thing you said aboutmemory and the musical therapist
up there, I know that from myown experience. We took care of my

(55:55):
wife's father, who had LewyBody dementia, and although there
were so many things that helost in his memory, including really
understanding who his daughterwas and so forth, but when we turned
music on for him, thatresonated with him, and he would
smile because it looked likehe remembered the music.

(56:17):
It was familiar. Yeah. Whichis so special. Yeah.
It just really. When you saidit kind of integrates and wraps around
your brain, that memory, Ialmost teared up because that memory
popped into my brain and.Yeah, that's pretty slick. I'll make
sure that I have everything inthe show notes that we can just have
an easy way to click on it andthey'll find you. It's been an absolute

(56:41):
pleasure to meet you andlearning about Irish heritage and
traditions and the music andso much more.
Thank you so much.
Michael, this is one morething before you go, so I would be
remiss if I didn't ask you toleave our audience with a final thought,
a piece of wisdom aboutbelonging, president, presence, or
the quiet rules to shape humanconnection. What would you want them

(57:02):
to carry with you after today?
I think what we talked about,you know, being respectful to others,
but also being respectful toyourself. So allow yourself to enjoy
the music because. And maybedon't put it off too long if you're

(57:23):
going to play. You know,there's no toolbars on a hearse.
There's no. There's no pocketsin a shroud. So enjoy it now, because
it's not going to be there.You know, we're not going to be here
forever. None of us. We're allin one direction only, unfortunately.
Like the. Like the band, OneDirection Only. None of us have.
Have found the. The. The magicpill to go backwards, unfortunately.

(57:46):
So grasp it now. Just take themusic, whatever kind of music. Just
enjoy it.
Life can change in an instant.Grasp that instant. Brilliant words
of wisdom. Again, thank youvery much for joining us, for sharing
your journey and your wisdomand so much more.
Thank you so much, Michael.

(58:06):
Belonging isn't something weearn. It's something we learn. And
sometimes the lessons aren'tspoken. They're felt in the pauses,
the glances, the rhythms thatwe step into, and the music we share
without ever saying a word.Irish sessions remind us that connection
is a living thing.Conversation between presence and
awareness, between who we are.And who we are becoming. And maybe

(58:29):
the real universal languageisn't music itself, but the way it
teaches us to listen and to bepart of a community. So that's a
wrap for today's episode. Ihope you found inspiration, motivation,
and a new perspective to takewith you. If you enjoyed it, please
sure to like subscribe andfollow us and stay connected. You
can find us on Apple, Spotifyand your favorite listening platform,

(58:49):
and you can head over toYouTube and catch the full video
version. I'm Michael Hurst.Have a great day, have a great week,
and thank you for being partof our community.
Thanks for listening to thisepisode of One More Thing before
youe Go. Check out [e-mail] you
can find us as well assubscribers to the program and rate
us on your favorite podcastlistening platform.