October 20, 2025 • 56 mins
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In this episode of OpsCast, hosted by Michael Hartmann and powered by MarketingOps.com, we are joined by Sarah Lane-Hawn, a fractional marketing leader and consultant who helps organizations shape their go-to-market strategy and build operational infrastructure with intention. Sarah brings experience leading both marketing operations and demand generation, offering a clear view of how these functions can work together more strategically.
The discussion focuses on how Marketing Operations professionals can move beyond the “ticket-taking” mindset and step into roles that drive real business impact. Sarah shares how understanding the “why” behind requests, influencing decisions, and aligning with organizational goals can elevate both personal growth and company success.
In this episode, you’ll learn:
- Why a human-centered strategy is essential to the future of marketing operations
- How MOps professionals can gain credibility and influence within their organizations
- The difference between building for reporting versus enablement
- Practical ways to bring strategic thinking and intuition into daily work
This episode is perfect for Marketing Ops, RevOps, and demand generation professionals looking to increase their strategic impact, build stronger partnerships with stakeholders, and find more meaning in their work.
Episode Brought to You By MO Pros
The #1 Community for Marketing Operations Professionals
Ops Cast is brought to you in partnership with Emmie Co, an incredible group of consultants leading the top brands in all things Marketing Operations. Check the mount at Emmieco.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_02 (00:24):
Hello, everyone.
Welcome to another episode ofOpsCast, brought to you by
MarketingOps.com and powered byall the MoPros out there.
I'm host Michael Hartman, joinedby no one today.
None of my co-hosts, at least.
But I am joined by a guest, andour guest this week is someone
who's been on both sides of thefence, leading marketing
operations teams and supportingDemand Gen as a marketer.
(00:45):
Sarah Lane Hahn is a fractionalleader and consultant who helps
organizations shape theirgo-to-market strategy and build
operational infrastructure withintention.
Today, she and I are going to betalking about how marketing ops
professionals can step out ofthe ticket-taking mindset and
into a more strategic,human-centered role.
So we're going to explore how tobetter understand the why behind
(01:05):
requests, influence decisions,and align work with both
business goals and personalgrowth.
Sarah, welcome to the show.
SPEAKER_01 (01:14):
Thanks, Michael.
I am excited to be here eversince we started talking about
kind of this topic.
(01:41):
But also just companies as awhole.
Like if they're growing theiroperations team, I have some
clients right now who arestarting their operations team
for the first time.
And so these are greatconversations to be had at any
stage of development of thinkinghow can we make the most out of
operations and not isolate themand not fall into the pitfalls
(02:02):
that so many companies have.
SPEAKER_02 (02:04):
Yeah.
I've been excited about this.
This is a topic that's near anddear to my heart.
And I know a lot of ourlisteners and um people in the
in the community uh often arelamenting how hard it is to get
out of that ticket taking modeand this would be seen as more
strategic.
So why why don't we start withum you know your perspective on
(02:27):
this and and what's missing inmany of the conversations that
our marketing ops professionalshave today?
Um I know one of the things yousaid to me is that you've yeah,
well, there's a lot of focus ontech and attribution, um, but
not enough on, I think youcalled it this human-centered
strategy.
So why don't you kind of talkthrough what do you mean by that
and like how maybe a little bitabout how you think about it
(02:50):
differently?
SPEAKER_01 (02:50):
Yeah, there's a couple of pieces there.
Um for one, it's the day-to-dayactual workload.
Um, I think if you even look atjob postings today and how we
list out the responsibilitiesfor a standard marketing ops
person at any level ofexpertise, it's going to be a
lot about tech ownership.
(03:11):
Um and that's true.
Like I'm not saying that's not abig priority of the things that
we own.
Um, but what you don't see a lotof is the responsibilities to be
a hub of information, to bringsolutions to the forefront, to
see how data informs umstrategies across departments.
Um, and those are things that Ithink we're uniquely situated to
(03:34):
do.
Um, the human-centered strategyis something that is really
important to me from anoperations mindset.
And I think it's something thathas helped me kind of branch out
from um just kind of the themarketing team or the ops team
that I'm sitting on at the timeis because a lot of our work
(03:55):
spans teams, right?
Like we're working on how do wehand off leads to the VDRs or
how do we um circle back to thesales team based on the
marketing initiatives thatpeople are engaging with?
And so when I'm doing that, oneof the um paramount things
that's important to me is how doI minimize friction for those
(04:18):
team members?
So, not only how do I just handthem the right things and check
the box and say, yep, it gotthere, but did that now take
extra time out of their day?
Does that new process now causethem more frustration than it
does help?
So even if the data's good, whatis the human cost of doing it?
SPEAKER_03 (04:40):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (04:41):
And how can we make that as efficient as possible?
Because at the end of the day,we're enablers, we're the
helpers.
We're here to make sure thatpeople can do their job and
have, you know, the highest andbest use of their time.
Um, and so kind of keeping thathuman-centric piece to anything
we're building so that it's notjust stuck in the tech and the
(05:04):
theory, but like in our actualday-to-day lives, how does this
influence us?
SPEAKER_02 (05:08):
Yeah, it's it's interesting because I like for
people who are listening only,like I'm sitting here nodding my
head and smiling because thatlast bit reminds me, you know, I
tell people all the time, uh,you know, one of the things I
think a lot of marketing ops andmarketing teams want is a view
through into pipeline andimpacts and all that.
And so they go, like, well, weneed we need to go ask
salespeople to do X, Y, or Z,right?
(05:30):
Update their stuff and all that.
And I often, and like what Iwant, I always tell them like
you need to think about how thisis gonna affect their ability to
do the things that they actuallyget paid for, right?
And if you're gonna go ask themto do some extra work uh or do
something in in addition that isgonna like get in the way of
that, you're probably not gonnahave much success.
(05:51):
Yep.
And I think I think that's alike and it like that's a
specific example, but I thinkyour point about like
understanding that from otherperspectives is is a good thing
to know.
I am curious though, in thehuman kind of the human side of
it, um there's obvious stuffthat we talked about just then,
right?
Internal kind of component ofit.
(06:12):
Do you think there's also acomponent of it that should be
external facing?
So whether it's customers andprospects or partners or
agencies, like uh think aboutthat part of it.
SPEAKER_01 (06:23):
100%.
I mean, I think that um if we'refocused on driving efficiency,
which I think is a lot of ourrole and operations, um, then
that efficiency also translatesto the prospects um and
customers.
And so how people engage withour website, even if we're not
the owners of that, if we're theones tasked with forms and
(06:47):
integrations, then how do we setup forms in the cleanest way to
be frictionless from aperspective, you know, prospect
view?
Um, how do we make sure thatwhen we're um putting in data
that's going to be used by thesales team, and then further
that gets handed off to thesuccess team, that it doesn't
(07:09):
get degraded over time so thatwhen you're talking to your
customer success manager, you'renot answering questions that you
asked during the discovery call,right?
Like sure, how do we just makesure that some of that
redundancy in their experiencedoesn't happen by making the
operation side of things veryclean?
SPEAKER_02 (07:29):
Yeah.
I mean, what I've experienced, Iguess an example when I was
responsible for some websitestuff at a big tech um
semiconductor company.
And you know, we a lot of whatwe had built out on the site in
terms of navigation was reallycentered around how we were
organized, but not really aroundthen how our products were
organized internally, but notreally around how customers
(07:49):
thought about it.
Yep.
And so I found myself beinginitially one of the only voices
going, but like I just becauseit's easier for us, like why are
we making it harder for ourprospects and customers?
Yeah.
So um I'm a I'm a big I'm a bigfan of that too.
Yeah.
So I think it's like that's tome, that's what I think of like
(08:10):
human-centered is thinking aboutall of those stakeholders.
So yes, absolutely.
So yeah, yeah, one of the thingsI mentioned in in when we
introduced you is that you'veworked across in both like
demand gen and general marketingroles as well as ops.
And um, I'd be curious how thathas shaped your approach in how
(08:32):
you think about strategyplanning and kind of doing that
stakeholder management.
Yeah.
Um, I know like I give anexample, like my experience,
even though it was short-lived,I was in sales for a long enough
period of time to realize howbleeping hard that job is.
Yeah.
Um, and it's really informed howI think about that now.
So, but I'm curious about whatyours is from your experience.
SPEAKER_01 (08:55):
Yeah, I mean, my background's definitely weird.
Um, but you know, I worked intech for a long time, but I've
worked in um like CX from astrategy perspective.
Um, and so been on that part ofthe house.
I've worked within the marketingteams and departments.
And then um I also did do someum consultative sales both on
(09:18):
the front end and on uh theclient success side.
And so I've really bridged andkind of followed through the
full life cycle of clients indifferent different places.
Um, and I do think that thatcreated a lot of knowledge and
empathy um for all of thosedifferent pieces and parts,
right?
(09:39):
Um so I do think that, you know,just kind of that human empathy
is helpful and is part of thereason why I do care about
reducing friction.
Um, but you talked aboutstakeholder management.
And I think that has really justcome from um the practice of
asking a lot of questions um andnot being afraid to put myself
(09:59):
out there and say, hey, I need30 minutes with the director of
sales.
Um, and just asking for that andthen making sure that that time
is valuable for them as well,and being able to say, okay,
here's what I'm seeing happeningfrom my, you know, perspective
and point of view.
Um, but where are you runninginto friction points?
(10:19):
What if I could solve it for youin the next week would be
monumental for the team?
Um, and then making sure thatlike, you know, your priorities
and their priorities can kind ofalign somewhere so that there's
a win-win.
Um, and I found that the fasterI can find those win-wins with
my like senior leadership teammembers, the faster that then I
(10:41):
had internal champions who werelike, okay, this person is worth
my time, it's worth talking tobecause I know any conversation
we have together is going to getsomething done and it's going to
move the needle.
Um, and so that started reallyhelping me have more kind of
credibility um within uhcompanies and be able to work
(11:02):
more cross-functionally.
Um, and so that was that wasreally helpful.
And then working within kind ofthe demand gen space, um, I
think has been really goodbecause you get more of a
creative mindset um for a lot ofthings and you start to
understand how in the marketingworld there's a lot of work done
(11:23):
that isn't going to have greatmetrics that come out of it that
point you in a very cleardirection or have causality tied
to it.
Like it's just not how it works.
Um filled with ambiguity, right?
There's so much that's like apsychological, you know,
adventure.
So um, so that was reallyhelpful because I think if I had
(11:45):
just jumped right into ops andwas just doing kind of data
analysis um and setting thingsup from a logical place at all
times, I wouldn't understandlike why this isn't being used,
why is this not being adopted?
Um, but knowing now like whatmarketing actually needs to do
their job successfully, to thenit be a successful handoff to
(12:08):
sales, to then that be asuccessful handoff to CX, I can
prioritize so much better whatinitiatives a company is needing
because it's not based off of myown bias of, hey, this is how it
should be.
SPEAKER_00 (12:21):
This is the right way to do it.
Instead, it's hey, this is gonnahelp, and we'll get to the right
way of things along the way, butthis will help you in the next
month.
So we're gonna start there.
SPEAKER_02 (12:32):
Yeah.
I I love that point about likeit's it's not the way it should
be because I think there's a lotof people who go like they just
don't get it.
This is the way it should be.
And there's a like there's a nomatter what that is, right?
There's some sort of costassociated with it, right?
In terms of if what affectsother teams and things like
that.
What um I want to circle back ona couple of the things you
(12:55):
talked about though.
So I'm I'm curious.
Uh, first, you talked about umgoing and setting time up with
people and sort of proving yourvalue and all that.
Um, one and I highly recommendthat to people, right?
To get to understand um whatmotivates those other people,
what their priorities are, butalso I I love that you said you
found ways to try to help movethe needle for them, right, as a
(13:16):
part of that.
What I'm wondering is if downthe line, if that has paid off
for you and being able to thenpush back or sort of have the
conversation about you asked forthis, I think this is more a
different priority.
Does it do you feel like thatkind of investing in that up
front gives you the opportunityto have uh you know to to give
(13:37):
the people the no without sayingno, right?
SPEAKER_01 (13:39):
Yeah, for sure.
I and I think for me, it's alsoa personality thing of figuring
out how to navigatepersonalities of different
people and what's valuable tothem, right?
Because at the end of the day,that's the currency that we're
working in in the professionalspace, is um is respect and kind
of benefit to each other.
(14:00):
And so um, if I can earn yourrespect quickly by showing you
that I value you and that I'mhere to be a support to you, um,
and then I can show my value byactually implementing something
that does make your life easier,um, then I start to have some
actual currency to work with.
Um, and from a pushbackperspective, uh, I've always
(14:25):
tried to frame things in acollaborative mindset.
And so I can disagree with you100%.
It doesn't mean that I have tocome in hot every time and be
like, you're wrong.
We need to do it this way.
This is why you're wrong.
Um, so instead, being able toalways frame it in a format of,
okay, um, here's what I've seen.
(14:47):
Here's some of the things that Ithink we'll lack if we go that
way.
What if we did it this way?
Yeah.
Um, would that be of benefit?
Do you have any reason why thatwouldn't be okay?
Even if it did something alittle extra that you didn't
need, right?
Is it okay if we build it?
SPEAKER_02 (15:05):
And if it was a step in the right direction, maybe
not all that you needed or one.
SPEAKER_01 (15:10):
Yeah, exactly.
Is that good enough for now?
Um, so yeah, those thoseconversations are a lot easier
when the person is like, theyalready know that you know what
you're talking about.
SPEAKER_03 (15:21):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (15:22):
And so they if they feel like your recommendation is
founded on something, even ifthey can't fully follow it, um,
and they don't feel like you'reconfrontational for no reason,
um, but know that like if youhave an opinion, it's it's based
on something of importance.
Um, I think that really helps.
SPEAKER_02 (15:40):
Yeah.
I mean, one of the things I l Ihave literally said this to
other stakeholders is justsimply good what if they come
with feedback and it it's easyto feel like it's a personal
attack, even though it's not,right?
Because there's ego tied up intowhat we do.
And I always tell people givelike I want your unvarnished
feedback, suggestions, ideas,right?
(16:00):
I want them all.
Yeah.
I at the same time, it doesn'tmean I'm necessarily going to
move on everything at the speedat which you want.
But the reason I tell them Iwant it is because when I hear
one person tell me aboutsomething, right, and the
context around it, um, it it maynot seem like a priority.
But if I start listen, if I'mlistening to enough people,
right, I may start hearing asimilar pattern.
(16:22):
It may not be exactly the same,but it's like the same.
And then I'm like, oh, this issomething we should go address.
But if I come in hot or uh tellpeople they're wrong or
whatever, right, that shuts downthat line of communication.
And there's a missed opportunityat that point.
SPEAKER_01 (16:39):
Yep.
Absolutely.
Well, and I always like to keepa wish list of stuff.
And so when people do come outof left field with like, oh, we
should really do this, and it'ssomething super far-fetched and
has nothing to do with anythingthat's a priority.
Being able to just go, cool, I'mgonna put that down.
Um, it's not on the priorityboard for right now, but like,
(17:00):
you know, if this continues tobe something that's happening in
the next month or two, likelet's circle back to it again,
you know, and like that way it'sat least been heard.
Um, and I do think that havingthat has saved me from a lot of
conversations of having to likevet those requests right then
and there, because if I did, itwouldn't have been a positive
(17:21):
vetting for that person.
Um, so I do think that that doesend up helping.
SPEAKER_02 (17:26):
And I think that's all some people sometimes that's
all people want is to know thatthey've been heard, right?
Yeah, trite as that sounds.
But I think that's like it'ssometimes people are saying
something coming up with anidea.
And it's not um I need this now,right?
It is I've got this idea.
Can we think about it?
And maybe it gets on uh gets onthere at some point.
(17:47):
So that's I think that's aninteresting, like that by itself
(18:49):
is really like just this idea onhow to handle those situations
is something that people shouldbe practicing and trying to do
for things that feel comfortablewith them, right?
Right.
Now the other part you talkedabout was uh your experience you
worked in, you said customerexperience, but it sounded like
I don't like is that likecustomer success, customer
support, or was it a customerexperience from uh it was
(19:11):
customer support for software?
SPEAKER_01 (19:15):
And so it was um, we were strategists, was what we
were called.
Um and so it was very muchunderstanding the tech,
understanding the client'sbusiness, and then being able to
connect the two um to help makethem a sticky customer for us
and helps adopt the software.
Um, so very much still from anadvisement perspective, um, but
(19:39):
working really closely, youknow, with the sales team to
onboard new clients and workingreally closely then with the
marketing team um on casestudies and being the voice of
the customer there.
So um, yeah, I think it waspretty standard like customer
success, but from like anenterprise perspective.
SPEAKER_02 (20:00):
It's just the reason I ask is because I as many
people we talk to, right?
I think a number of people comefrom other parts of marketing
into ops, or some have come froma sales or sales ops standpoint.
I I don't hear a lot of peopletalking about experience in that
kind of role and how itincorporated.
I kind of think about thatagain, this human human-centered
part.
I think that would be reallyvaluable to understand the
(20:24):
impacts to customers and theonboarding process or whatever,
whatever it is that your companydoes as a new customer comes on
board.
Um so I like I I I hadn't reallythought about it.
So that one was likeeye-opening.
I'm yeah, well, sort ofmarinating on that one.
SPEAKER_01 (20:40):
I think that's true from a company perspective, too,
like in reverse, in terms of whopursues developing operations um
as a team and as somebody thatthey invest in.
I think a lot of times it comesfrom the sales department.
Some of the time it comes fromthe marketing department.
I personally have not seen itinitiated from the CX
(21:05):
department.
And I would love to see thathappen.
Um and I would love to work witha company who their, you know,
director of um client success islike, we need to focus on client
success operations.
Let's at least get a fractionalperson in here because there is
so much wonderful human-focuseddata at the CX level.
(21:31):
Like you have actual informationabout um the relationship of the
brand with the human and what isactually meaningful to them and
what makes them come back again.
Um, and if you're in uh likesoftware, like what leads to
product adoption, what leads toexpansion, you have all of this
(21:52):
information that's never, orshouldn't say never,
infrequently digestible in a waythat it gets back into the
go-to-market motion.
Um, but if you could startthere, like instead of ending
there, I think you could havesuch a powerful operations um
initiative going in the company.
SPEAKER_02 (22:13):
Yeah.
I mean, we had we had an episodenot too long ago where we talked
to somebody about the uhcustomer marketing, which I feel
has been de-emphasized in many,many places.
Yeah.
In in the pursuit of new logoacquisition.
And um you know, even thingslike just the simple like what's
that experience from being aprospect to a customer um can
(22:37):
can set the tone for whetherlike if you've got a um got a
contract that has a limitedlife, right?
You know, that first initialexperience is gonna be huge in
terms of the likelihood thatthey'll continue to be a
customer, is like my experience.
So yeah, for sure.
Um okay, so like kind of goingback to the marketing apps folks
(23:01):
a little bit and this perceptionthat uh or at least this feeling
that a lot of people in thespace that I hear about talk
about is feeling like ordertakers.
So I I have my own theories onwhy that is there.
And we've kind of probablytouched on some of them, but
like why do you think thathappens?
Why do you think the people havethat perception and maybe others
(23:23):
have perception about ops aswell?
And how do you how do you whatwould you suggest for companies
or marketing ops pros to get outof that and f from being the
default?
SPEAKER_01 (23:35):
Yeah, so I think part of it is just lack of
understanding from you knowexecutive um leadership.
And I think that's true of ofmost kind of technical roles,
right?
Um they can only get into theweeds so much, um, even if an
executive was willing to justlike shadow ops for a day, like
(23:57):
I still don't know that they'dhave a great concept of what it
is we do because every day it'sdifferent.
Um, and so they they're onlygonna be able to have so much of
a concept of um of everythingthat's possible, right?
Um, and so I think the default'salways gonna be I have a need.
Who do I need to go to to answerthat need?
(24:18):
Oh, it's marketing ops.
Great, here's what I need,please go do it.
And because things get boileddown so much into that ask, it's
very easy, especially whenthings are coming from the top.
I think for professionals to go,yes, ma'am, yes, sir, like here
I go.
(24:39):
Uh, here's what you asked for,right?
And we we want to provide itquickly, we want to provide, you
know, the win.
And um, and then we startgetting stuck in that cycle.
And so then it does become aticket taking machine um because
somebody has to break thatpattern.
And I don't know that uh formost companies, you're you're as
(25:01):
an ops person are ever gonna getto step in the door and be like,
oh, this is great.
We're involved in so muchstrategy.
Like we're not there yet, Idon't think, as a professional
group um known for strategy yet,for that to be the norm.
So instead, it's up to us tobreak out of that.
And it's up to executives andcompanies that want everything
(25:24):
that ops can offer to be mindfulof this as well, which is to
make sure that your ops team hasexposure to different
departments, to make sure thatthey are included in discussions
about how are we setting ourannual KPIs and what do those
look like for the companypriorities?
(25:44):
Um, so that that can stay top ofmind within all of the tickets.
Um, but then from an opsprofessional standpoint, I think
it's also on us to sometimesslow things down.
And so when we receive that ask,again, being bold enough to ask
for 30 minutes.
Say, listen, I really want tounderstand the background of
(26:06):
this ask so that I can answerthis the right way.
And we don't have to ever redoit.
Yeah.
And I think when you starttalking about longevity of your
work, executives tend to listenbecause they're like, oh, thank
God.
So who cares aboutrepeatability?
Yeah.
Right.
Right.
All of those things, right?
And so when you can phrase it inthat way, they're gonna take the
(26:28):
time or or you can say, youknow, I need to talk to somebody
who who's the right person.
It may not be the person who putin the ask.
Um, but then you can start tounpack that a little bit more,
figure out what it's tied to,take it offline, understand the
problem.
What's the problem we'reactually trying to solve?
Not the technical ask, but theproblem.
(26:49):
Then we can come back with thesolution.
And it'll probably come inmultiple phases, um, especially
when you're starting to buildthat new rapport, is okay,
here's how I answered yourimmediate need that you that you
know you have.
And then on top of it, Ianswered it in a way that lets
(27:09):
me build X, Y, and Z next toanswer the bigger company
problem that was behind theproblem that you noticed.
And that then starts to shedlight on, okay, this is a
strategic resource.
They're not just thinking onelayer deep, they're thinking
three layers deep every time wehave a conversation.
Um, they're doing things in anefficient way so that we're
(27:32):
still getting stuff out the doorand we're still able to adopt it
quickly, but we're also planningfor tomorrow.
Um, and so I think that's that'sthe biggest thing is like taking
that ownership to slow it down alittle bit, think through more
layers while still executingreally efficiently.
SPEAKER_02 (27:48):
I mean, I think it's sometimes it's as simple as
saying, like, yes, I can dothis.
Um, here's the here's the otherthings that are going to be
affected.
So just so they just so you knowthat this is a priority.
But also on if you go like thisis something I can do, I can do
it relatively quickly, but it'snot something I'll be able to do
repeatedly if I do it quickly.
Right.
It's to do it to make it so thatit's scalable and repeatable,
(28:10):
I'll take it'll take more time.
Asking, like, is that goodenough for you for that?
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (28:17):
Um I mean, I think one of the one of the things
that I've seen time and timeagain um with companies is uh
failure around kind of their MQLprocess and and the ask that
come in that comes into me couldbe as simple as, hey, we think
our form routing might bebroken.
(28:39):
Uh we want every submission on aform to get routed to a sales
exec, right?
I could take that at face valueand run with it, right?
Give me 30 minutes, I'm gonna goaudit the forms, make sure they
all flow into a workflow thatround robins to sales execs.
Done.
(28:59):
I win in 30 minutes, everybodymoves on, nobody thinks about it
again.
Instead, though, pausing andsaying, okay, you say all, but
we don't want to route junk.
So I'm gonna make sure that thatgets filtered out.
Uh also, we actually do have anICP, so I'm gonna put some
qualification criteria checks inhere and see who meets it and
(29:22):
who doesn't.
That's gonna be another layer ofthis process.
Okay, we're saying thateverybody that comes through a
form is an MQL, but what aboutall the other ways that we're
warming up leads?
And why are none of thosegetting actually flagged to
handoff to sales?
Um, okay, let's talk about howto do that, right?
And so now you take one tinylittle 30-minute task and you've
(29:47):
turned it into an analysis ofthe actual solution for the
company of what should an MQLbe?
How do we define it?
How do we actually qualify sothat marketing metrics are of
value and sales receives thehighest quality leads from us?
Right.
And so that kind of change fromthis is what is asked, this is
(30:11):
what I give, to hold on, there'sa lot more layers here that
we're not addressing.
Um, that's that's when thatchange has started to occur,
where you've gone from just atactile um doer to to a
strategic leader.
SPEAKER_02 (30:27):
Yeah, I think another example that I see a lot
of especially early stage peopleum struggle with is they're
asked to generate a report.
You generate a report, maybethere's a chart, right?
Maybe there's a table of ofdata, it doesn't really matter
what it is.
And um they just generate thereport they were asked for, they
turn it over, no analysis, no,and on that report, there's
(30:50):
something that if you likeanybody looking at it who's not
familiar with it in detail willgo like, why is this number off,
right?
Something's not right, right?
Or it's doesn't follow thepattern.
And I tell people all the time,like before, like generate the
report you think is the rightone, but then you spend some
time looking at it and trying toanticipate what kind of
(31:10):
questions are people gonna havejust based on like patterns.
It's not even that hard, right?
You got a line of data, all of asudden there's a spike or a dip,
right?
Or spike and then a dip, andpeople are gonna naturally go
like what happened there.
Like and you should have donesome of that already.
Don't like don't expect them togo look at and then ask you
again.
Like, do that ahead of time.
(31:31):
Right.
And and try to explain it.
And if we what the explanationis, oh, we found out that uh uh
there was a change made inSalesforce to opportunity stages
or like whatever it is, right?
You can explain what it is, oryou can explain.
We saw this too.
I've already begun investigatingit.
I'm not quite sure what it is,but this is what I'm doing, like
(31:53):
this is what I've uncoveredalready or limited.
That kind of thing will changethe perception of you as well.
This is especially true, Ithink, in our space, because the
quality of data in marketing andsales, especially in the P2B
world, is just not good.
I mean, like if there's just notwo ways around it.
And so it's easy to for peoplewhen they see reports like that
(32:17):
to discount the report becausethe data looks quote wrong.
SPEAKER_01 (32:22):
Yeah.
Well, and as soon as somethingis misinterpreted um and seen
then as wrong, no report is evertrusted again.
SPEAKER_00 (32:31):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (32:32):
And um, I've definitely seen that where you
can lose all credibility in aninstant, and it is hell to try
to get any of that back.
Um, and so definitely being ableto speak to um, you know, having
done some analysis, I thinkbefore reporting things up is
(32:53):
definitely an important thing,especially for our more junior
level people.
It's a good skill to learn.
Um, the other piece that I wouldsay is um anytime that you're
working with dates, withreporting um, date ranges and
relative dates, um, you not onlyneed to be able to speak to what
(33:14):
is showing on the report, butthe back-end data caveats of
what's going on and how tointerpret it and how to use it
and what it means in regularhuman language.
Um, and so a lot of times inreports now for things that are
more advanced like that, um,I'll put on the dashboard
explainer text beside it thatsays this is to be read in the
(33:37):
following way and like put it insentence form um and you know,
highlight an asterisk and boldand underline the things that
are odd that somebody wouldn'tnecessarily think it means,
right?
Um and you especially want to dothat if something's going up the
chain to be used in a board deckbecause oh man, I have
(34:01):
definitely had people look overa report and go, oh my gosh,
we're up 220%, you know, withit, and I'm like, no, no, no,
no, no, that is not what thissays.
unknown (34:10):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (34:10):
Please don't say that to our board.
So, you know, being very clearabout what things actually mean
is important because you at theend of the day, a chart's just a
chart.
You you know, you can interpretit a lot of different ways.
So yeah, I think that'simportant.
SPEAKER_02 (34:25):
People are more and more removed from that won't
understand the nuance in thecontext of what a particular
report or a data point means.
And so yeah, you it you shouldbe providing that as much as you
can as early as possible.
Yeah, it's funny because I Ihave had many times where I've
had someone come to me like uhthis thing is broken, this thing
(34:46):
is wrong, right?
Lead flow is broken.
Like, okay, this is like thatcatches my attention, but like
don't go around saying that,please.
I'm not saying there's notsomething that needs to be
addressed or fixed or whatever,but let's talk about specific
like what do you mean?
When you say lead flow isbroken, what do you mean?
Right, talk me for kind of toyour point, right?
(35:08):
Um send me all the like theresponse was send me all those,
send me all the leads or sendall the leads to the sales
execs.
Yeah, could there be somethingwrong?
Yeah.
Uh could it be fixed?
Yeah, yeah.
And maybe it's a temporary, likeit's so I like I always like I
truly try to avoid sayingsomething's something's wrong,
something's right, something'sbroken.
(35:30):
Because it's just it's toobroad.
And if it gets I've had manymultiple times with other execs
and other departments, sales inparticular, who've I've heard
through the grave find, havebeen saying things about that,
and I will go and talk to themdirectly.
They're like, first off, stop,right?
If they if you think there's aproblem, come talk to me.
(35:51):
I again kind of go back to this,like I want your feedback,
right?
I'm not I am comfortable enoughto be able to be told like so
like hey, your team's not doingwhat they need to be doing, or
this thing is broke.
Yeah, I perceive it as beingbroken or whatever, but come
tell me.
Don't start saying that broadlybecause um it's not helping,
right?
And that's that's the kind ofthing that I it actually gets
(36:14):
under my skin a little bit.
Um, and I but I won't like I'vegotten to a point where I just
won't tolerate it.
I just like you know, come talkto me and we'll go figure it
out.
SPEAKER_01 (36:25):
Yeah, the figuring it out as a team, I think is is
always key, um, especially whenwe want to move into that
strategic realm, right?
We want to stay ahead of things,there's always gonna be things
so that pop up.
And um sure.
So typically when I'm workingacross teams that also, if
especially if it's introducing anew process, um, that's usually
(36:47):
one of the first things thatI'll say is like, here's the due
process, here's what it's meantto do.
So if you see X, Y, or Z happen,it's not meant to do that.
Please tell me when those thingshappen because you're on the
front lines, you're the onethat's going to see that, you're
the one that has the context forit.
Um, and I'm here to then supportcontinually making this better.
(37:12):
And that tends to give peoplekind of the open door just to
ping me and say, hey, was thissupposed to come through?
Hey, was this supposed to becategorized this way?
Um, and sometimes it isn'tbecause it's a weird exception
to a rule.
Um, and sometimes it is, and itlets me have the opportunity
then to further their trainingand say, Yep, this is a weird
(37:34):
one, but here's why that gotbucketed in this way.
Here's what I would do with it,you know, here's the next steps
I would take.
Um, and so then you're alsoenabling them to succeed where
they got stuck, right?
Um, and so always the helper isis kind of my my personal way of
(37:55):
of tackling a lot of thosethings.
SPEAKER_02 (37:57):
Yeah.
I mean my mantra is I want to beconfident but humble.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, for sure.
Yeah.
So um, okay, so we've talked alot about kind of what that
looks like and why there mightbe what do you like, what would
you recommend for people who arelistening?
Okay, that's great.
Uh I still feel like I'm anorder taker.
Like, how do I get how do I getmyself out of that mode?
SPEAKER_01 (38:18):
Yeah.
Um, so I used to earlier in mycareer volunteer to be a liaison
to different teams or sub teams.
Um and what that would mean wasif they ever had questions um
for marketing or marketing apps,they knew me my name, they could
(38:39):
come and chat with me.
Um, and then I would sit in onall of their stand-ups.
And that way I knew what wasgoing on with that team.
And if anything was pertinent uhto marketing, I'd, you know,
bring that information back.
Um, that was really helpful uhbecause again, a lot of what
we're talking about here is justprofessional currency.
(39:00):
And so, like by being visible,by being connected to people, by
listening and understanding howthings connect, um, you're gonna
be able to have more insightfulthings to say.
You're gonna be able to buildreports in a way that actually
are usable by the team membersand not just great for monthly
slide decks, right?
(39:21):
Um, and so like all of thosethings really add up to make a
difference.
And hopefully uh you have goodmanagement who are going to see
your potential.
And as you start expressinginterest and saying, hey, I
fixed level one, here's leveltwo and three that I think we
should work on next for thisthat could help in these ways,
(39:44):
they're gonna hopefully, youknow, latch on to that and start
start utilizing that energy.
Um, but I do think it comes fromus.
I I don't think that it's Imean, really ever in anyone's
career path um good to to waitfor the invitation.
Like I think you just kind ofhave to put yourself out there
and um and try to continue to behumble and helpful and look for
(40:08):
opportunities to to do more andlearn more.
Um, and that curiosity will willtake a long, take a long path.
But um yeah, the the practicalways that we talked about so far
of like turning a ticket into aconversation, yeah, getting
things done still efficiently,don't put the brakes on just so
that you can have yourconversation, um, still be
(40:32):
efficient, but adding thoselayers then of okay, this is how
things are connecting.
And I think also a lot of it,um, another tangible thing is
like get outside of whatever theworkspace is that you work
within.
So like if you're on a team thatdoes work off of tickets, it's
(40:53):
gonna be very easy for yourmindset to continually stay in
tickets because that's whatyou're looking at all day.
So get yourself a notebook orstart yourself a document
somewhere where you're justkeeping your own record of notes
of things that you were curiousabout, of things that you see
potential connections of lateron, or um, where you've seen
(41:16):
that like uh sales and productuse similar data points, but
that are stored in a differentway.
Like jot it down because you'regonna find opportunities later
that pop up that you go, oh,that connects to this wish list
item that I had in the back ofmy mind for wouldn't it be cool
if we could do this thing.
SPEAKER_03 (41:36):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (41:37):
And now six months later, there's an opportunity to
bring it up.
Um, so that would be my otherencouragement is don't lose your
own good thoughts.
SPEAKER_02 (41:47):
Well, and I think um I've seen more lately, and I
know because of a connection tothe people who've worked in
brain research that actually youmentioned writing it down in a
notebook, like literally writingpen to paper, pencil to paper,
whatever is your like thatactually triggers different
pathways in your brain that umreinforce learning.
(42:09):
So I think actually that's likea really good one.
Not only just get out of yourticketing system and into a
different digital thing, like ifyou can actually write it down,
right?
You can always translate it todigital easily.
Um actually there's a place forthat as well.
Yeah.
So it's it's this is gonna soundreally stupid.
There's a movie, I don'tremember what it was.
Uh I saw years and years agowhere there's somebody said
(42:32):
advising a child, right?
Um, who's struggling with incollege or whatever?
And you know, interested isinteresting.
Um and I it's like for whateverthat's that line stuck with me.
But the point was, right, if youshow it to your point, like
don't wait for the invitation,like if you show interest,
right, um people are gonnareciprocate and they're like
(42:55):
they're actually I've veryrarely uh seen where people go
like, hey, I'll if you ask forsome of their time to learn more
about what they're doing, whatthey care about, like to for
them to say no.
They may say, I'm busy now, canwe schedule some time?
Um but they're more than willingto share, especially if they see
that you're sincere and thatyour goal is to try to make
(43:17):
things better, more efficient,whatever for them for them.
Yes.
Um, okay, so let's uh switchgears a little bit.
Um so one of the things wetalked about is um where
marketing options sit in an orgchart and kind of why there's
such differences of opinionthere.
(43:37):
And then and maybe maybe this istied to it as well, but this
idea, I think you said likebuilding for building marketing
ops for reporting versusbuilding it for enablement,
right?
So maybe tie those two togethera little bit.
SPEAKER_01 (43:52):
Yeah.
Um, so when you're building fora report, um, we're often
thinking again, just in terms ofthe data and the numbers, um,
and trying to just summarizethings and get it to look pretty
and and you know, whereas whenwe're actually building for
enablement, we're thinking againabout that human-centric um
(44:15):
process and how it's gonnaimpact the day-to-day and what's
the cost in time uh and energyand frustration um that is being
asked instead of just number ofclicks, right?
And so these are the types ofthings that I think are really
important um in order to branchinto strategy is that we're not
(44:36):
just answering the need and theroot cause, but we're also
thinking about how it's gonnainfluence others.
Because at the end of the day,the point you made earlier, you
could build the best process inthe world if it doesn't get
adopted because it's toofrustrating for someone, then it
doesn't matter um that it wasgoing to be more efficient
because it's not anymore.
(44:58):
Um, and so it's really importantthat that adoption becomes kind
of our priority.
Um, and you can either getadoption by forcing it and being
like a stickler for the rules,or you can get adoption by being
really caring about what peopleneed and what makes their life
(45:19):
easier in the day-to-day.
Um, and somewhere in betweenthose two is usually a good
balance.
Um, people are gonna have to dosome things they don't like to
do.
It's life.
And at the same time, we don'thave to make each other's lives
miserable for no reason.
And so we can try to be a littlemore caring in how we articulate
our builds.
(45:40):
Um, but yeah, I I think it doesum connect some to the to the
debate from the last year ofwhere where does marketing op
sit?
What should we be called, likeall of these conversations that
we have um kind of within ourown community.
Um, and I think that one of thereasons why it's so difficult to
answer is that there is thisgold mine of information to be
(46:05):
had in operations.
Um, and I don't just saymarketing ops because it could
be sales ops, drive ops, go tomarket ops, whatever, whatever
brand of ops you want to be in.
Um, but it's there's so muchdata that um is cross-functional
that goes across these differentteams and departments that
(46:28):
everyone's using, that everyonecould be using.
Um, and the processes go acrossthose departments and those tool
sets as well.
And so because of that, um, itit's hard to place us.
But that also I think should bekind of a green flag for um
companies and leaders thinkingabout operations that like, oh,
(46:52):
if we can't easily say you sithere because this is what you
have access to and this is whoyou serve, yeah, then it should
say, wow, this is a hub ofinformation.
They will be able to seeintersections of things that
nobody else has insight into.
(47:14):
And so when we're trying toproblem solve at a company
level, um these are the peoplethat we need to be tapping as
our problem solvers becausethat's what they do every day.
Um, and yes, we might put theblinders on and kind of stay in
our lane sometimes, but we havethe potential um to be able to
(47:35):
answer a lot of thoseintersectional needs for a
company.
Um, and so I don't have theanswer for where we should sit,
but I think that um we should beworking really closely.
Like if a company has chief ofstaff roles, like I think ops
should be working hand in handwith chief of staff roles
because they are again taskedwith the impossible problems for
(47:57):
the company that are mostimportant.
And that is what we have insightinto is here's all of the
potential web of ways thatthings are connected that we can
pull from to solve thoseproblems.
SPEAKER_02 (48:11):
Yeah, I think it's interesting that you bring up
chief of staff because I thinkof them as um sort of the
classic generalists, right?
Um and I think that's true of alot of ops roles, not just
marketing and revenue ops andsales, like there's there's a
lot of that, and it's kind ofcounter to the way that many
organizations are built aroundspecialization.
And so um it's it's that's Ithink that's part of why it's
(48:34):
hard to sort of slot in.
Where the where do thesegeneralists that seem to have a
little bit of a bent towards onefunctional area or another fit
in to the organization, right?
Um yeah, I've I've we actuallyhave talked to people who are
chiefs of staff, and I I'veoften wondered if that would be
a good like one of potential umcareer paths for people in in
(48:55):
ops roles.
Um I think it's it's hardbecause in many companies chief
of staff is it's not a um thereare times when it's seen as a
really important critical roleand is compensated in in such a
way, and then there's lots whereit's not.
And I think that's like that'sthe it can sometimes be like and
(49:18):
the perception is is it a is ita goal of a career path or is it
a pot pat part of a path and acareer path?
I think there's a lot ofquestions about that.
So well, um we're getting shorton time, but we do like we end
here a little bit.
So one of the things that youand I talked about, and I have
sort of strong opinions abouttoo, and you you kind of touched
(49:41):
on it at one point when you saidlike when you're in demand gen,
like there are things that arenot measurable, right?
So it implies that there's alittle bit of a gut kind of
instinct on stuff.
Like so I know there's a lot ofpush in business in general and
marketing, like to do data anddata-driven, you know, decision
making or that.
(50:02):
Um but I think that I stillthink there's a place for gut,
whatever you want to call it,right?
Like, how do you think aboutthose two?
And you know, how do you likehow would you balance that?
SPEAKER_01 (50:16):
Yeah, so I feel like I have to preface this by saying
that like my education is as amathematician, I'm an extremely
analytical person.
I want a yes or no answer toeverything.
Um, you know, that's that's howmy brain works.
Um, at the same time, what I'vereally learned um over probably
(50:36):
the past decade, and I I wish Iknew the source um where I first
heard this, where they said thatyour gut um is data too.
And it was coming from this ideaof your intuition um is founded
off of patterns that you havestored sometimes subconsciously
(51:00):
from exposure to things.
And so the longer that you're inyour career, the longer you're
gonna have exposed to seeingthings over and over and over
again happen to the point thatsomebody is gonna say, Hey, I
really think we need to automateour entire um prospecting
sequence.
And your gut is just gonna go,no, I don't think we should.
(51:24):
Um, and it's not that younecessarily even have the data
for that.
Um, but you've seen it so manytimes that something in you
knows that that's not that's notthe right decision.
Um, and so then again, youadvise off of actually, I think
this would be better, this wouldbe more holistic.
(51:45):
We need to pair automation withpersonalization, with individual
outreach and research, right?
And um, and again, that thatrecommendation is is coming from
your knowledge that you have.
And so you are a data source.
Um, but I think a lot of us uhwho are very analytical and are
(52:09):
used to people asking us to, youknow, pull reports within the
next two hours that you knowtell certain narrative, um, it
gets really easy to kind of havethat like trigger to to jump to
prove something.
SPEAKER_03 (52:22):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (52:23):
And that's not always the right answer.
Sometimes we need to kind ofjust like sit in our intuition
and trust our gut and be able tosay, you know, here's what I'm
thinking.
Um and especially if somethingisn't measurable, um, then it's
really important to trust thatintuition and that past
experience that you've had.
Um and then you might measureforward, right?
(52:46):
You might start monitoring umthe changes from then on to be
able to see if if you made theright call.
Um but yeah, that I thought thatwas like really brilliant when I
first heard it.
That just that idea that likeyour experience is data.
Like, do you, you know, thatthat counts as a credible
source.
SPEAKER_02 (53:06):
I'm stealing that totally.
So yeah.
Um yeah, it so it's funnybecause I also have I didn't do
math as I have an applied mathminor, but by I'm an engineer by
training in a particularoperations research, which is
all about optimization andcomplex problems.
And um so like I really want togo there because it feels
(53:30):
natural at the same time.
It's funny because like I thinkabout um I'm a big fan of the
free economics franchise, right?
Yeah, and I think I think whatit opened up to me is like this
whole my my one of my one of myolder my oldest son is in a
business school now, and it wetalked about economics, and I
said like the there's problemswith the fundamentals of
(53:50):
economics theory because it'sbased on people acting
rationally and which is just notthe case.
And it's like what's what's funbehavioral economics is because
there's obviously there's otherthings other than people acting
in a rational way, like and soum I think uh like your point,
like over the years, this issort of like I've evolved and
(54:12):
gone like um, like what do Ithink is important to the point
where last year, when I wrote awhite paper for the market apps
community about uh measuringeffectiveness of B2B marketing,
uh one of the perspectives Italked about is narrative,
right?
There's a storytelling componentthat is not really data at all,
right?
But it's looking at like when wewin deals, you know, what are
(54:36):
the characteristics of exampleones that we have that we can
tell, like point to?
Like we won this deal with logoX.
Here are all the things thathappen across sales marketing,
customer experience, whateverthat led to that, and how can we
take that and feed it back intowhat we do when we go to market?
And um, it's it's often, Ithink, many, many marketers who
should be really good at thestorytelling don't do it very
(54:58):
well internally.
unknown (54:59):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (54:59):
And it's a missed opportunity in my book.
For sure.
Well, hey, Sarah, thank you somuch.
This has been a lot of fun.
If if folks want to keep up withwhat you're talking about,
continue the conversation withyou or whatever, what's the best
way for them to do that?
SPEAKER_01 (55:11):
Yeah, um, so I always direct people to LinkedIn
just because it's where I'm mostactive.
So you can always find me there.
Sarah Lanehan, uh LanehanConsulting is my my company.
Um, I also go by the hashtagMopsFerry.
Um, so I am very much whimsical.
Um, and that ended up kind ofcoming into my personal brand,
(55:32):
which has been really fun thislast year.
Um, but yeah, LinkedIn is ishonestly the best.
I mean, I I have a website andI'm on the HubSpot um providers
uh pages, but I don't haveconversations those places.
And I'd much rather have a humanconversation.
Um so LinkedIn um is the placeto find me.
SPEAKER_02 (55:55):
Fantastic.
Again, Sarah, thank you so much.
I'm so glad we got to do this.
Um so appreciate that.
Thanks always to our uh ouraudience out there.
As always, if you havesuggestions for topics or
guests, or you want to be aguest, please reach out to
Naomi, Mike, or me.
We'd be happy to do that.
Till next time.
Bye, everybody.
Hello, everyone.
Welcome to another episode ofOpsCast, brought to you by
MarketingOps.com and powered byall the MoPros out there.
I'm host Michael Hartman, joinedby no one today.
None of my co-hosts, at least.
But I am joined by a guest, andour guest this week is someone
who's been on both sides of thefence, leading marketing
operations teams and supportingDemand Gen as a marketer.
(00:45):
Sarah Lane Hahn is a fractionalleader and consultant who helps
organizations shape theirgo-to-market strategy and build
operational infrastructure withintention.
Today, she and I are going to betalking about how marketing ops
professionals can step out ofthe ticket-taking mindset and
into a more strategic,human-centered role.
So we're going to explore how tobetter understand the why behind
(01:05):
requests, influence decisions,and align work with both
business goals and personalgrowth.
Sarah, welcome to the show.
SPEAKER_01 (01:14):
Thanks, Michael.
I am excited to be here eversince we started talking about
kind of this topic.
(01:41):
But also just companies as awhole.
Like if they're growing theiroperations team, I have some
clients right now who arestarting their operations team
for the first time.
And so these are greatconversations to be had at any
stage of development of thinkinghow can we make the most out of
operations and not isolate themand not fall into the pitfalls
(02:02):
that so many companies have.
SPEAKER_02 (02:04):
Yeah.
I've been excited about this.
This is a topic that's near anddear to my heart.
And I know a lot of ourlisteners and um people in the
in the community uh often arelamenting how hard it is to get
out of that ticket taking modeand this would be seen as more
strategic.
So why why don't we start withum you know your perspective on
(02:27):
this and and what's missing inmany of the conversations that
our marketing ops professionalshave today?
Um I know one of the things yousaid to me is that you've yeah,
well, there's a lot of focus ontech and attribution, um, but
not enough on, I think youcalled it this human-centered
strategy.
So why don't you kind of talkthrough what do you mean by that
and like how maybe a little bitabout how you think about it
(02:50):
differently?
SPEAKER_01 (02:50):
Yeah, there's a couple of pieces there.
Um for one, it's the day-to-dayactual workload.
Um, I think if you even look atjob postings today and how we
list out the responsibilitiesfor a standard marketing ops
person at any level ofexpertise, it's going to be a
lot about tech ownership.
(03:11):
Um and that's true.
Like I'm not saying that's not abig priority of the things that
we own.
Um, but what you don't see a lotof is the responsibilities to be
a hub of information, to bringsolutions to the forefront, to
see how data informs umstrategies across departments.
Um, and those are things that Ithink we're uniquely situated to
(03:34):
do.
Um, the human-centered strategyis something that is really
important to me from anoperations mindset.
And I think it's something thathas helped me kind of branch out
from um just kind of the themarketing team or the ops team
that I'm sitting on at the timeis because a lot of our work
(03:55):
spans teams, right?
Like we're working on how do wehand off leads to the VDRs or
how do we um circle back to thesales team based on the
marketing initiatives thatpeople are engaging with?
And so when I'm doing that, oneof the um paramount things
that's important to me is how doI minimize friction for those
(04:18):
team members?
So, not only how do I just handthem the right things and check
the box and say, yep, it gotthere, but did that now take
extra time out of their day?
Does that new process now causethem more frustration than it
does help?
So even if the data's good, whatis the human cost of doing it?
SPEAKER_03 (04:40):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (04:41):
And how can we make that as efficient as possible?
Because at the end of the day,we're enablers, we're the
helpers.
We're here to make sure thatpeople can do their job and
have, you know, the highest andbest use of their time.
Um, and so kind of keeping thathuman-centric piece to anything
we're building so that it's notjust stuck in the tech and the
(05:04):
theory, but like in our actualday-to-day lives, how does this
influence us?
SPEAKER_02 (05:08):
Yeah, it's it's interesting because I like for
people who are listening only,like I'm sitting here nodding my
head and smiling because thatlast bit reminds me, you know, I
tell people all the time, uh,you know, one of the things I
think a lot of marketing ops andmarketing teams want is a view
through into pipeline andimpacts and all that.
And so they go, like, well, weneed we need to go ask
salespeople to do X, Y, or Z,right?
(05:30):
Update their stuff and all that.
And I often, and like what Iwant, I always tell them like
you need to think about how thisis gonna affect their ability to
do the things that they actuallyget paid for, right?
And if you're gonna go ask themto do some extra work uh or do
something in in addition that isgonna like get in the way of
that, you're probably not gonnahave much success.
(05:51):
Yep.
And I think I think that's alike and it like that's a
specific example, but I thinkyour point about like
understanding that from otherperspectives is is a good thing
to know.
I am curious though, in thehuman kind of the human side of
it, um there's obvious stuffthat we talked about just then,
right?
Internal kind of component ofit.
(06:12):
Do you think there's also acomponent of it that should be
external facing?
So whether it's customers andprospects or partners or
agencies, like uh think aboutthat part of it.
SPEAKER_01 (06:23):
100%.
I mean, I think that um if we'refocused on driving efficiency,
which I think is a lot of ourrole and operations, um, then
that efficiency also translatesto the prospects um and
customers.
And so how people engage withour website, even if we're not
the owners of that, if we're theones tasked with forms and
(06:47):
integrations, then how do we setup forms in the cleanest way to
be frictionless from aperspective, you know, prospect
view?
Um, how do we make sure thatwhen we're um putting in data
that's going to be used by thesales team, and then further
that gets handed off to thesuccess team, that it doesn't
(07:09):
get degraded over time so thatwhen you're talking to your
customer success manager, you'renot answering questions that you
asked during the discovery call,right?
Like sure, how do we just makesure that some of that
redundancy in their experiencedoesn't happen by making the
operation side of things veryclean?
SPEAKER_02 (07:29):
Yeah.
I mean, what I've experienced, Iguess an example when I was
responsible for some websitestuff at a big tech um
semiconductor company.
And you know, we a lot of whatwe had built out on the site in
terms of navigation was reallycentered around how we were
organized, but not really aroundthen how our products were
organized internally, but notreally around how customers
(07:49):
thought about it.
Yep.
And so I found myself beinginitially one of the only voices
going, but like I just becauseit's easier for us, like why are
we making it harder for ourprospects and customers?
Yeah.
So um I'm a I'm a big I'm a bigfan of that too.
Yeah.
So I think it's like that's tome, that's what I think of like
(08:10):
human-centered is thinking aboutall of those stakeholders.
So yes, absolutely.
So yeah, yeah, one of the thingsI mentioned in in when we
introduced you is that you'veworked across in both like
demand gen and general marketingroles as well as ops.
And um, I'd be curious how thathas shaped your approach in how
(08:32):
you think about strategyplanning and kind of doing that
stakeholder management.
Yeah.
Um, I know like I give anexample, like my experience,
even though it was short-lived,I was in sales for a long enough
period of time to realize howbleeping hard that job is.
Yeah.
Um, and it's really informed howI think about that now.
So, but I'm curious about whatyours is from your experience.
SPEAKER_01 (08:55):
Yeah, I mean, my background's definitely weird.
Um, but you know, I worked intech for a long time, but I've
worked in um like CX from astrategy perspective.
Um, and so been on that part ofthe house.
I've worked within the marketingteams and departments.
And then um I also did do someum consultative sales both on
(09:18):
the front end and on uh theclient success side.
And so I've really bridged andkind of followed through the
full life cycle of clients indifferent different places.
Um, and I do think that thatcreated a lot of knowledge and
empathy um for all of thosedifferent pieces and parts,
right?
(09:39):
Um so I do think that, you know,just kind of that human empathy
is helpful and is part of thereason why I do care about
reducing friction.
Um, but you talked aboutstakeholder management.
And I think that has really justcome from um the practice of
asking a lot of questions um andnot being afraid to put myself
(09:59):
out there and say, hey, I need30 minutes with the director of
sales.
Um, and just asking for that andthen making sure that that time
is valuable for them as well,and being able to say, okay,
here's what I'm seeing happeningfrom my, you know, perspective
and point of view.
Um, but where are you runninginto friction points?
(10:19):
What if I could solve it for youin the next week would be
monumental for the team?
Um, and then making sure thatlike, you know, your priorities
and their priorities can kind ofalign somewhere so that there's
a win-win.
Um, and I found that the fasterI can find those win-wins with
my like senior leadership teammembers, the faster that then I
(10:41):
had internal champions who werelike, okay, this person is worth
my time, it's worth talking tobecause I know any conversation
we have together is going to getsomething done and it's going to
move the needle.
Um, and so that started reallyhelping me have more kind of
credibility um within uhcompanies and be able to work
(11:02):
more cross-functionally.
Um, and so that was that wasreally helpful.
And then working within kind ofthe demand gen space, um, I
think has been really goodbecause you get more of a
creative mindset um for a lot ofthings and you start to
understand how in the marketingworld there's a lot of work done
(11:23):
that isn't going to have greatmetrics that come out of it that
point you in a very cleardirection or have causality tied
to it.
Like it's just not how it works.
Um filled with ambiguity, right?
There's so much that's like apsychological, you know,
adventure.
So um, so that was reallyhelpful because I think if I had
(11:45):
just jumped right into ops andwas just doing kind of data
analysis um and setting thingsup from a logical place at all
times, I wouldn't understandlike why this isn't being used,
why is this not being adopted?
Um, but knowing now like whatmarketing actually needs to do
their job successfully, to thenit be a successful handoff to
(12:08):
sales, to then that be asuccessful handoff to CX, I can
prioritize so much better whatinitiatives a company is needing
because it's not based off of myown bias of, hey, this is how it
should be.
SPEAKER_00 (12:21):
This is the right way to do it.
Instead, it's hey, this is gonnahelp, and we'll get to the right
way of things along the way, butthis will help you in the next
month.
So we're gonna start there.
SPEAKER_02 (12:32):
Yeah.
I I love that point about likeit's it's not the way it should
be because I think there's a lotof people who go like they just
don't get it.
This is the way it should be.
And there's a like there's a nomatter what that is, right?
There's some sort of costassociated with it, right?
In terms of if what affectsother teams and things like
that.
What um I want to circle back ona couple of the things you
(12:55):
talked about though.
So I'm I'm curious.
Uh, first, you talked about umgoing and setting time up with
people and sort of proving yourvalue and all that.
Um, one and I highly recommendthat to people, right?
To get to understand um whatmotivates those other people,
what their priorities are, butalso I I love that you said you
found ways to try to help movethe needle for them, right, as a
(13:16):
part of that.
What I'm wondering is if downthe line, if that has paid off
for you and being able to thenpush back or sort of have the
conversation about you asked forthis, I think this is more a
different priority.
Does it do you feel like thatkind of investing in that up
front gives you the opportunityto have uh you know to to give
(13:37):
the people the no without sayingno, right?
SPEAKER_01 (13:39):
Yeah, for sure.
I and I think for me, it's alsoa personality thing of figuring
out how to navigatepersonalities of different
people and what's valuable tothem, right?
Because at the end of the day,that's the currency that we're
working in in the professionalspace, is um is respect and kind
of benefit to each other.
(14:00):
And so um, if I can earn yourrespect quickly by showing you
that I value you and that I'mhere to be a support to you, um,
and then I can show my value byactually implementing something
that does make your life easier,um, then I start to have some
actual currency to work with.
Um, and from a pushbackperspective, uh, I've always
(14:25):
tried to frame things in acollaborative mindset.
And so I can disagree with you100%.
It doesn't mean that I have tocome in hot every time and be
like, you're wrong.
We need to do it this way.
This is why you're wrong.
Um, so instead, being able toalways frame it in a format of,
okay, um, here's what I've seen.
(14:47):
Here's some of the things that Ithink we'll lack if we go that
way.
What if we did it this way?
Yeah.
Um, would that be of benefit?
Do you have any reason why thatwouldn't be okay?
Even if it did something alittle extra that you didn't
need, right?
Is it okay if we build it?
SPEAKER_02 (15:05):
And if it was a step in the right direction, maybe
not all that you needed or one.
SPEAKER_01 (15:10):
Yeah, exactly.
Is that good enough for now?
Um, so yeah, those thoseconversations are a lot easier
when the person is like, theyalready know that you know what
you're talking about.
SPEAKER_03 (15:21):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (15:22):
And so they if they feel like your recommendation is
founded on something, even ifthey can't fully follow it, um,
and they don't feel like you'reconfrontational for no reason,
um, but know that like if youhave an opinion, it's it's based
on something of importance.
Um, I think that really helps.
SPEAKER_02 (15:40):
Yeah.
I mean, one of the things I l Ihave literally said this to
other stakeholders is justsimply good what if they come
with feedback and it it's easyto feel like it's a personal
attack, even though it's not,right?
Because there's ego tied up intowhat we do.
And I always tell people givelike I want your unvarnished
feedback, suggestions, ideas,right?
(16:00):
I want them all.
Yeah.
I at the same time, it doesn'tmean I'm necessarily going to
move on everything at the speedat which you want.
But the reason I tell them Iwant it is because when I hear
one person tell me aboutsomething, right, and the
context around it, um, it it maynot seem like a priority.
But if I start listen, if I'mlistening to enough people,
right, I may start hearing asimilar pattern.
(16:22):
It may not be exactly the same,but it's like the same.
And then I'm like, oh, this issomething we should go address.
But if I come in hot or uh tellpeople they're wrong or
whatever, right, that shuts downthat line of communication.
And there's a missed opportunityat that point.
SPEAKER_01 (16:39):
Yep.
Absolutely.
Well, and I always like to keepa wish list of stuff.
And so when people do come outof left field with like, oh, we
should really do this, and it'ssomething super far-fetched and
has nothing to do with anythingthat's a priority.
Being able to just go, cool, I'mgonna put that down.
Um, it's not on the priorityboard for right now, but like,
(17:00):
you know, if this continues tobe something that's happening in
the next month or two, likelet's circle back to it again,
you know, and like that way it'sat least been heard.
Um, and I do think that havingthat has saved me from a lot of
conversations of having to likevet those requests right then
and there, because if I did, itwouldn't have been a positive
(17:21):
vetting for that person.
Um, so I do think that that doesend up helping.
SPEAKER_02 (17:26):
And I think that's all some people sometimes that's
all people want is to know thatthey've been heard, right?
Yeah, trite as that sounds.
But I think that's like it'ssometimes people are saying
something coming up with anidea.
And it's not um I need this now,right?
It is I've got this idea.
Can we think about it?
And maybe it gets on uh gets onthere at some point.
(17:47):
So that's I think that's aninteresting, like that by itself
(18:49):
is really like just this idea onhow to handle those situations
is something that people shouldbe practicing and trying to do
for things that feel comfortablewith them, right?
Right.
Now the other part you talkedabout was uh your experience you
worked in, you said customerexperience, but it sounded like
I don't like is that likecustomer success, customer
support, or was it a customerexperience from uh it was
(19:11):
customer support for software?
SPEAKER_01 (19:15):
And so it was um, we were strategists, was what we
were called.
Um and so it was very muchunderstanding the tech,
understanding the client'sbusiness, and then being able to
connect the two um to help makethem a sticky customer for us
and helps adopt the software.
Um, so very much still from anadvisement perspective, um, but
(19:39):
working really closely, youknow, with the sales team to
onboard new clients and workingreally closely then with the
marketing team um on casestudies and being the voice of
the customer there.
So um, yeah, I think it waspretty standard like customer
success, but from like anenterprise perspective.
SPEAKER_02 (20:00):
It's just the reason I ask is because I as many
people we talk to, right?
I think a number of people comefrom other parts of marketing
into ops, or some have come froma sales or sales ops standpoint.
I I don't hear a lot of peopletalking about experience in that
kind of role and how itincorporated.
I kind of think about thatagain, this human human-centered
part.
I think that would be reallyvaluable to understand the
(20:24):
impacts to customers and theonboarding process or whatever,
whatever it is that your companydoes as a new customer comes on
board.
Um so I like I I I hadn't reallythought about it.
So that one was likeeye-opening.
I'm yeah, well, sort ofmarinating on that one.
SPEAKER_01 (20:40):
I think that's true from a company perspective, too,
like in reverse, in terms of whopursues developing operations um
as a team and as somebody thatthey invest in.
I think a lot of times it comesfrom the sales department.
Some of the time it comes fromthe marketing department.
I personally have not seen itinitiated from the CX
(21:05):
department.
And I would love to see thathappen.
Um and I would love to work witha company who their, you know,
director of um client success islike, we need to focus on client
success operations.
Let's at least get a fractionalperson in here because there is
so much wonderful human-focuseddata at the CX level.
(21:31):
Like you have actual informationabout um the relationship of the
brand with the human and what isactually meaningful to them and
what makes them come back again.
Um, and if you're in uh likesoftware, like what leads to
product adoption, what leads toexpansion, you have all of this
(21:52):
information that's never, orshouldn't say never,
infrequently digestible in a waythat it gets back into the
go-to-market motion.
Um, but if you could startthere, like instead of ending
there, I think you could havesuch a powerful operations um
initiative going in the company.
SPEAKER_02 (22:13):
Yeah.
I mean, we had we had an episodenot too long ago where we talked
to somebody about the uhcustomer marketing, which I feel
has been de-emphasized in many,many places.
Yeah.
In in the pursuit of new logoacquisition.
And um you know, even thingslike just the simple like what's
that experience from being aprospect to a customer um can
(22:37):
can set the tone for whetherlike if you've got a um got a
contract that has a limitedlife, right?
You know, that first initialexperience is gonna be huge in
terms of the likelihood thatthey'll continue to be a
customer, is like my experience.
So yeah, for sure.
Um okay, so like kind of goingback to the marketing apps folks
(23:01):
a little bit and this perceptionthat uh or at least this feeling
that a lot of people in thespace that I hear about talk
about is feeling like ordertakers.
So I I have my own theories onwhy that is there.
And we've kind of probablytouched on some of them, but
like why do you think thathappens?
Why do you think the people havethat perception and maybe others
(23:23):
have perception about ops aswell?
And how do you how do you whatwould you suggest for companies
or marketing ops pros to get outof that and f from being the
default?
SPEAKER_01 (23:35):
Yeah, so I think part of it is just lack of
understanding from you knowexecutive um leadership.
And I think that's true of ofmost kind of technical roles,
right?
Um they can only get into theweeds so much, um, even if an
executive was willing to justlike shadow ops for a day, like
(23:57):
I still don't know that they'dhave a great concept of what it
is we do because every day it'sdifferent.
Um, and so they they're onlygonna be able to have so much of
a concept of um of everythingthat's possible, right?
Um, and so I think the default'salways gonna be I have a need.
Who do I need to go to to answerthat need?
(24:18):
Oh, it's marketing ops.
Great, here's what I need,please go do it.
And because things get boileddown so much into that ask, it's
very easy, especially whenthings are coming from the top.
I think for professionals to go,yes, ma'am, yes, sir, like here
I go.
(24:39):
Uh, here's what you asked for,right?
And we we want to provide itquickly, we want to provide, you
know, the win.
And um, and then we startgetting stuck in that cycle.
And so then it does become aticket taking machine um because
somebody has to break thatpattern.
And I don't know that uh formost companies, you're you're as
(25:01):
an ops person are ever gonna getto step in the door and be like,
oh, this is great.
We're involved in so muchstrategy.
Like we're not there yet, Idon't think, as a professional
group um known for strategy yet,for that to be the norm.
So instead, it's up to us tobreak out of that.
And it's up to executives andcompanies that want everything
(25:24):
that ops can offer to be mindfulof this as well, which is to
make sure that your ops team hasexposure to different
departments, to make sure thatthey are included in discussions
about how are we setting ourannual KPIs and what do those
look like for the companypriorities?
(25:44):
Um, so that that can stay top ofmind within all of the tickets.
Um, but then from an opsprofessional standpoint, I think
it's also on us to sometimesslow things down.
And so when we receive that ask,again, being bold enough to ask
for 30 minutes.
Say, listen, I really want tounderstand the background of
(26:06):
this ask so that I can answerthis the right way.
And we don't have to ever redoit.
Yeah.
And I think when you starttalking about longevity of your
work, executives tend to listenbecause they're like, oh, thank
God.
So who cares aboutrepeatability?
Yeah.
Right.
Right.
All of those things, right?
And so when you can phrase it inthat way, they're gonna take the
(26:28):
time or or you can say, youknow, I need to talk to somebody
who who's the right person.
It may not be the person who putin the ask.
Um, but then you can start tounpack that a little bit more,
figure out what it's tied to,take it offline, understand the
problem.
What's the problem we'reactually trying to solve?
Not the technical ask, but theproblem.
(26:49):
Then we can come back with thesolution.
And it'll probably come inmultiple phases, um, especially
when you're starting to buildthat new rapport, is okay,
here's how I answered yourimmediate need that you that you
know you have.
And then on top of it, Ianswered it in a way that lets
(27:09):
me build X, Y, and Z next toanswer the bigger company
problem that was behind theproblem that you noticed.
And that then starts to shedlight on, okay, this is a
strategic resource.
They're not just thinking onelayer deep, they're thinking
three layers deep every time wehave a conversation.
Um, they're doing things in anefficient way so that we're
(27:32):
still getting stuff out the doorand we're still able to adopt it
quickly, but we're also planningfor tomorrow.
Um, and so I think that's that'sthe biggest thing is like taking
that ownership to slow it down alittle bit, think through more
layers while still executingreally efficiently.
SPEAKER_02 (27:48):
I mean, I think it's sometimes it's as simple as
saying, like, yes, I can dothis.
Um, here's the here's the otherthings that are going to be
affected.
So just so they just so you knowthat this is a priority.
But also on if you go like thisis something I can do, I can do
it relatively quickly, but it'snot something I'll be able to do
repeatedly if I do it quickly.
Right.
It's to do it to make it so thatit's scalable and repeatable,
(28:10):
I'll take it'll take more time.
Asking, like, is that goodenough for you for that?
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (28:17):
Um I mean, I think one of the one of the things
that I've seen time and timeagain um with companies is uh
failure around kind of their MQLprocess and and the ask that
come in that comes into me couldbe as simple as, hey, we think
our form routing might bebroken.
(28:39):
Uh we want every submission on aform to get routed to a sales
exec, right?
I could take that at face valueand run with it, right?
Give me 30 minutes, I'm gonna goaudit the forms, make sure they
all flow into a workflow thatround robins to sales execs.
Done.
(28:59):
I win in 30 minutes, everybodymoves on, nobody thinks about it
again.
Instead, though, pausing andsaying, okay, you say all, but
we don't want to route junk.
So I'm gonna make sure that thatgets filtered out.
Uh also, we actually do have anICP, so I'm gonna put some
qualification criteria checks inhere and see who meets it and
(29:22):
who doesn't.
That's gonna be another layer ofthis process.
Okay, we're saying thateverybody that comes through a
form is an MQL, but what aboutall the other ways that we're
warming up leads?
And why are none of thosegetting actually flagged to
handoff to sales?
Um, okay, let's talk about howto do that, right?
And so now you take one tinylittle 30-minute task and you've
(29:47):
turned it into an analysis ofthe actual solution for the
company of what should an MQLbe?
How do we define it?
How do we actually qualify sothat marketing metrics are of
value and sales receives thehighest quality leads from us?
Right.
And so that kind of change fromthis is what is asked, this is
(30:11):
what I give, to hold on, there'sa lot more layers here that
we're not addressing.
Um, that's that's when thatchange has started to occur,
where you've gone from just atactile um doer to to a
strategic leader.
SPEAKER_02 (30:27):
Yeah, I think another example that I see a lot
of especially early stage peopleum struggle with is they're
asked to generate a report.
You generate a report, maybethere's a chart, right?
Maybe there's a table of ofdata, it doesn't really matter
what it is.
And um they just generate thereport they were asked for, they
turn it over, no analysis, no,and on that report, there's
(30:50):
something that if you likeanybody looking at it who's not
familiar with it in detail willgo like, why is this number off,
right?
Something's not right, right?
Or it's doesn't follow thepattern.
And I tell people all the time,like before, like generate the
report you think is the rightone, but then you spend some
time looking at it and trying toanticipate what kind of
(31:10):
questions are people gonna havejust based on like patterns.
It's not even that hard, right?
You got a line of data, all of asudden there's a spike or a dip,
right?
Or spike and then a dip, andpeople are gonna naturally go
like what happened there.
Like and you should have donesome of that already.
Don't like don't expect them togo look at and then ask you
again.
Like, do that ahead of time.
(31:31):
Right.
And and try to explain it.
And if we what the explanationis, oh, we found out that uh uh
there was a change made inSalesforce to opportunity stages
or like whatever it is, right?
You can explain what it is, oryou can explain.
We saw this too.
I've already begun investigatingit.
I'm not quite sure what it is,but this is what I'm doing, like
(31:53):
this is what I've uncoveredalready or limited.
That kind of thing will changethe perception of you as well.
This is especially true, Ithink, in our space, because the
quality of data in marketing andsales, especially in the P2B
world, is just not good.
I mean, like if there's just notwo ways around it.
And so it's easy to for peoplewhen they see reports like that
(32:17):
to discount the report becausethe data looks quote wrong.
SPEAKER_01 (32:22):
Yeah.
Well, and as soon as somethingis misinterpreted um and seen
then as wrong, no report is evertrusted again.
SPEAKER_00 (32:31):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (32:32):
And um, I've definitely seen that where you
can lose all credibility in aninstant, and it is hell to try
to get any of that back.
Um, and so definitely being ableto speak to um, you know, having
done some analysis, I thinkbefore reporting things up is
(32:53):
definitely an important thing,especially for our more junior
level people.
It's a good skill to learn.
Um, the other piece that I wouldsay is um anytime that you're
working with dates, withreporting um, date ranges and
relative dates, um, you not onlyneed to be able to speak to what
(33:14):
is showing on the report, butthe back-end data caveats of
what's going on and how tointerpret it and how to use it
and what it means in regularhuman language.
Um, and so a lot of times inreports now for things that are
more advanced like that, um,I'll put on the dashboard
explainer text beside it thatsays this is to be read in the
(33:37):
following way and like put it insentence form um and you know,
highlight an asterisk and boldand underline the things that
are odd that somebody wouldn'tnecessarily think it means,
right?
Um and you especially want to dothat if something's going up the
chain to be used in a board deckbecause oh man, I have
(34:01):
definitely had people look overa report and go, oh my gosh,
we're up 220%, you know, withit, and I'm like, no, no, no,
no, no, that is not what thissays.
unknown (34:10):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (34:10):
Please don't say that to our board.
So, you know, being very clearabout what things actually mean
is important because you at theend of the day, a chart's just a
chart.
You you know, you can interpretit a lot of different ways.
So yeah, I think that'simportant.
SPEAKER_02 (34:25):
People are more and more removed from that won't
understand the nuance in thecontext of what a particular
report or a data point means.
And so yeah, you it you shouldbe providing that as much as you
can as early as possible.
Yeah, it's funny because I Ihave had many times where I've
had someone come to me like uhthis thing is broken, this thing
(34:46):
is wrong, right?
Lead flow is broken.
Like, okay, this is like thatcatches my attention, but like
don't go around saying that,please.
I'm not saying there's notsomething that needs to be
addressed or fixed or whatever,but let's talk about specific
like what do you mean?
When you say lead flow isbroken, what do you mean?
Right, talk me for kind of toyour point, right?
(35:08):
Um send me all the like theresponse was send me all those,
send me all the leads or sendall the leads to the sales
execs.
Yeah, could there be somethingwrong?
Yeah.
Uh could it be fixed?
Yeah, yeah.
And maybe it's a temporary, likeit's so I like I always like I
truly try to avoid sayingsomething's something's wrong,
something's right, something'sbroken.
(35:30):
Because it's just it's toobroad.
And if it gets I've had manymultiple times with other execs
and other departments, sales inparticular, who've I've heard
through the grave find, havebeen saying things about that,
and I will go and talk to themdirectly.
They're like, first off, stop,right?
If they if you think there's aproblem, come talk to me.
(35:51):
I again kind of go back to this,like I want your feedback,
right?
I'm not I am comfortable enoughto be able to be told like so
like hey, your team's not doingwhat they need to be doing, or
this thing is broke.
Yeah, I perceive it as beingbroken or whatever, but come
tell me.
Don't start saying that broadlybecause um it's not helping,
right?
And that's that's the kind ofthing that I it actually gets
(36:14):
under my skin a little bit.
Um, and I but I won't like I'vegotten to a point where I just
won't tolerate it.
I just like you know, come talkto me and we'll go figure it
out.
SPEAKER_01 (36:25):
Yeah, the figuring it out as a team, I think is is
always key, um, especially whenwe want to move into that
strategic realm, right?
We want to stay ahead of things,there's always gonna be things
so that pop up.
And um sure.
So typically when I'm workingacross teams that also, if
especially if it's introducing anew process, um, that's usually
(36:47):
one of the first things thatI'll say is like, here's the due
process, here's what it's meantto do.
So if you see X, Y, or Z happen,it's not meant to do that.
Please tell me when those thingshappen because you're on the
front lines, you're the onethat's going to see that, you're
the one that has the context forit.
Um, and I'm here to then supportcontinually making this better.
(37:12):
And that tends to give peoplekind of the open door just to
ping me and say, hey, was thissupposed to come through?
Hey, was this supposed to becategorized this way?
Um, and sometimes it isn'tbecause it's a weird exception
to a rule.
Um, and sometimes it is, and itlets me have the opportunity
then to further their trainingand say, Yep, this is a weird
(37:34):
one, but here's why that gotbucketed in this way.
Here's what I would do with it,you know, here's the next steps
I would take.
Um, and so then you're alsoenabling them to succeed where
they got stuck, right?
Um, and so always the helper isis kind of my my personal way of
(37:55):
of tackling a lot of thosethings.
SPEAKER_02 (37:57):
Yeah.
I mean my mantra is I want to beconfident but humble.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, for sure.
Yeah.
So um, okay, so we've talked alot about kind of what that
looks like and why there mightbe what do you like, what would
you recommend for people who arelistening?
Okay, that's great.
Uh I still feel like I'm anorder taker.
Like, how do I get how do I getmyself out of that mode?
SPEAKER_01 (38:18):
Yeah.
Um, so I used to earlier in mycareer volunteer to be a liaison
to different teams or sub teams.
Um and what that would mean wasif they ever had questions um
for marketing or marketing apps,they knew me my name, they could
(38:39):
come and chat with me.
Um, and then I would sit in onall of their stand-ups.
And that way I knew what wasgoing on with that team.
And if anything was pertinent uhto marketing, I'd, you know,
bring that information back.
Um, that was really helpful uhbecause again, a lot of what
we're talking about here is justprofessional currency.
(39:00):
And so, like by being visible,by being connected to people, by
listening and understanding howthings connect, um, you're gonna
be able to have more insightfulthings to say.
You're gonna be able to buildreports in a way that actually
are usable by the team membersand not just great for monthly
slide decks, right?
(39:21):
Um, and so like all of thosethings really add up to make a
difference.
And hopefully uh you have goodmanagement who are going to see
your potential.
And as you start expressinginterest and saying, hey, I
fixed level one, here's leveltwo and three that I think we
should work on next for thisthat could help in these ways,
(39:44):
they're gonna hopefully, youknow, latch on to that and start
start utilizing that energy.
Um, but I do think it comes fromus.
I I don't think that it's Imean, really ever in anyone's
career path um good to to waitfor the invitation.
Like I think you just kind ofhave to put yourself out there
and um and try to continue to behumble and helpful and look for
(40:08):
opportunities to to do more andlearn more.
Um, and that curiosity will willtake a long, take a long path.
But um yeah, the the practicalways that we talked about so far
of like turning a ticket into aconversation, yeah, getting
things done still efficiently,don't put the brakes on just so
that you can have yourconversation, um, still be
(40:32):
efficient, but adding thoselayers then of okay, this is how
things are connecting.
And I think also a lot of it,um, another tangible thing is
like get outside of whatever theworkspace is that you work
within.
So like if you're on a team thatdoes work off of tickets, it's
(40:53):
gonna be very easy for yourmindset to continually stay in
tickets because that's whatyou're looking at all day.
So get yourself a notebook orstart yourself a document
somewhere where you're justkeeping your own record of notes
of things that you were curiousabout, of things that you see
potential connections of lateron, or um, where you've seen
(41:16):
that like uh sales and productuse similar data points, but
that are stored in a differentway.
Like jot it down because you'regonna find opportunities later
that pop up that you go, oh,that connects to this wish list
item that I had in the back ofmy mind for wouldn't it be cool
if we could do this thing.
SPEAKER_03 (41:36):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (41:37):
And now six months later, there's an opportunity to
bring it up.
Um, so that would be my otherencouragement is don't lose your
own good thoughts.
SPEAKER_02 (41:47):
Well, and I think um I've seen more lately, and I
know because of a connection tothe people who've worked in
brain research that actually youmentioned writing it down in a
notebook, like literally writingpen to paper, pencil to paper,
whatever is your like thatactually triggers different
pathways in your brain that umreinforce learning.
(42:09):
So I think actually that's likea really good one.
Not only just get out of yourticketing system and into a
different digital thing, like ifyou can actually write it down,
right?
You can always translate it todigital easily.
Um actually there's a place forthat as well.
Yeah.
So it's it's this is gonna soundreally stupid.
There's a movie, I don'tremember what it was.
Uh I saw years and years agowhere there's somebody said
(42:32):
advising a child, right?
Um, who's struggling with incollege or whatever?
And you know, interested isinteresting.
Um and I it's like for whateverthat's that line stuck with me.
But the point was, right, if youshow it to your point, like
don't wait for the invitation,like if you show interest,
right, um people are gonnareciprocate and they're like
(42:55):
they're actually I've veryrarely uh seen where people go
like, hey, I'll if you ask forsome of their time to learn more
about what they're doing, whatthey care about, like to for
them to say no.
They may say, I'm busy now, canwe schedule some time?
Um but they're more than willingto share, especially if they see
that you're sincere and thatyour goal is to try to make
(43:17):
things better, more efficient,whatever for them for them.
Yes.
Um, okay, so let's uh switchgears a little bit.
Um so one of the things wetalked about is um where
marketing options sit in an orgchart and kind of why there's
such differences of opinionthere.
(43:37):
And then and maybe maybe this istied to it as well, but this
idea, I think you said likebuilding for building marketing
ops for reporting versusbuilding it for enablement,
right?
So maybe tie those two togethera little bit.
SPEAKER_01 (43:52):
Yeah.
Um, so when you're building fora report, um, we're often
thinking again, just in terms ofthe data and the numbers, um,
and trying to just summarizethings and get it to look pretty
and and you know, whereas whenwe're actually building for
enablement, we're thinking againabout that human-centric um
(44:15):
process and how it's gonnaimpact the day-to-day and what's
the cost in time uh and energyand frustration um that is being
asked instead of just number ofclicks, right?
And so these are the types ofthings that I think are really
important um in order to branchinto strategy is that we're not
(44:36):
just answering the need and theroot cause, but we're also
thinking about how it's gonnainfluence others.
Because at the end of the day,the point you made earlier, you
could build the best process inthe world if it doesn't get
adopted because it's toofrustrating for someone, then it
doesn't matter um that it wasgoing to be more efficient
because it's not anymore.
(44:58):
Um, and so it's really importantthat that adoption becomes kind
of our priority.
Um, and you can either getadoption by forcing it and being
like a stickler for the rules,or you can get adoption by being
really caring about what peopleneed and what makes their life
(45:19):
easier in the day-to-day.
Um, and somewhere in betweenthose two is usually a good
balance.
Um, people are gonna have to dosome things they don't like to
do.
It's life.
And at the same time, we don'thave to make each other's lives
miserable for no reason.
And so we can try to be a littlemore caring in how we articulate
our builds.
(45:40):
Um, but yeah, I I think it doesum connect some to the to the
debate from the last year ofwhere where does marketing op
sit?
What should we be called, likeall of these conversations that
we have um kind of within ourown community.
Um, and I think that one of thereasons why it's so difficult to
answer is that there is thisgold mine of information to be
(46:05):
had in operations.
Um, and I don't just saymarketing ops because it could
be sales ops, drive ops, go tomarket ops, whatever, whatever
brand of ops you want to be in.
Um, but it's there's so muchdata that um is cross-functional
that goes across these differentteams and departments that
(46:28):
everyone's using, that everyonecould be using.
Um, and the processes go acrossthose departments and those tool
sets as well.
And so because of that, um, itit's hard to place us.
But that also I think should bekind of a green flag for um
companies and leaders thinkingabout operations that like, oh,
(46:52):
if we can't easily say you sithere because this is what you
have access to and this is whoyou serve, yeah, then it should
say, wow, this is a hub ofinformation.
They will be able to seeintersections of things that
nobody else has insight into.
(47:14):
And so when we're trying toproblem solve at a company
level, um these are the peoplethat we need to be tapping as
our problem solvers becausethat's what they do every day.
Um, and yes, we might put theblinders on and kind of stay in
our lane sometimes, but we havethe potential um to be able to
(47:35):
answer a lot of thoseintersectional needs for a
company.
Um, and so I don't have theanswer for where we should sit,
but I think that um we should beworking really closely.
Like if a company has chief ofstaff roles, like I think ops
should be working hand in handwith chief of staff roles
because they are again taskedwith the impossible problems for
(47:57):
the company that are mostimportant.
And that is what we have insightinto is here's all of the
potential web of ways thatthings are connected that we can
pull from to solve thoseproblems.
SPEAKER_02 (48:11):
Yeah, I think it's interesting that you bring up
chief of staff because I thinkof them as um sort of the
classic generalists, right?
Um and I think that's true of alot of ops roles, not just
marketing and revenue ops andsales, like there's there's a
lot of that, and it's kind ofcounter to the way that many
organizations are built aroundspecialization.
And so um it's it's that's Ithink that's part of why it's
(48:34):
hard to sort of slot in.
Where the where do thesegeneralists that seem to have a
little bit of a bent towards onefunctional area or another fit
in to the organization, right?
Um yeah, I've I've we actuallyhave talked to people who are
chiefs of staff, and I I'veoften wondered if that would be
a good like one of potential umcareer paths for people in in
(48:55):
ops roles.
Um I think it's it's hardbecause in many companies chief
of staff is it's not a um thereare times when it's seen as a
really important critical roleand is compensated in in such a
way, and then there's lots whereit's not.
And I think that's like that'sthe it can sometimes be like and
(49:18):
the perception is is it a is ita goal of a career path or is it
a pot pat part of a path and acareer path?
I think there's a lot ofquestions about that.
So well, um we're getting shorton time, but we do like we end
here a little bit.
So one of the things that youand I talked about, and I have
sort of strong opinions abouttoo, and you you kind of touched
(49:41):
on it at one point when you saidlike when you're in demand gen,
like there are things that arenot measurable, right?
So it implies that there's alittle bit of a gut kind of
instinct on stuff.
Like so I know there's a lot ofpush in business in general and
marketing, like to do data anddata-driven, you know, decision
making or that.
(50:02):
Um but I think that I stillthink there's a place for gut,
whatever you want to call it,right?
Like, how do you think aboutthose two?
And you know, how do you likehow would you balance that?
SPEAKER_01 (50:16):
Yeah, so I feel like I have to preface this by saying
that like my education is as amathematician, I'm an extremely
analytical person.
I want a yes or no answer toeverything.
Um, you know, that's that's howmy brain works.
Um, at the same time, what I'vereally learned um over probably
(50:36):
the past decade, and I I wish Iknew the source um where I first
heard this, where they said thatyour gut um is data too.
And it was coming from this ideaof your intuition um is founded
off of patterns that you havestored sometimes subconsciously
(51:00):
from exposure to things.
And so the longer that you're inyour career, the longer you're
gonna have exposed to seeingthings over and over and over
again happen to the point thatsomebody is gonna say, Hey, I
really think we need to automateour entire um prospecting
sequence.
And your gut is just gonna go,no, I don't think we should.
(51:24):
Um, and it's not that younecessarily even have the data
for that.
Um, but you've seen it so manytimes that something in you
knows that that's not that's notthe right decision.
Um, and so then again, youadvise off of actually, I think
this would be better, this wouldbe more holistic.
(51:45):
We need to pair automation withpersonalization, with individual
outreach and research, right?
And um, and again, that thatrecommendation is is coming from
your knowledge that you have.
And so you are a data source.
Um, but I think a lot of us uhwho are very analytical and are
(52:09):
used to people asking us to, youknow, pull reports within the
next two hours that you knowtell certain narrative, um, it
gets really easy to kind of havethat like trigger to to jump to
prove something.
SPEAKER_03 (52:22):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (52:23):
And that's not always the right answer.
Sometimes we need to kind ofjust like sit in our intuition
and trust our gut and be able tosay, you know, here's what I'm
thinking.
Um and especially if somethingisn't measurable, um, then it's
really important to trust thatintuition and that past
experience that you've had.
Um and then you might measureforward, right?
(52:46):
You might start monitoring umthe changes from then on to be
able to see if if you made theright call.
Um but yeah, that I thought thatwas like really brilliant when I
first heard it.
That just that idea that likeyour experience is data.
Like, do you, you know, thatthat counts as a credible
source.
SPEAKER_02 (53:06):
I'm stealing that totally.
So yeah.
Um yeah, it so it's funnybecause I also have I didn't do
math as I have an applied mathminor, but by I'm an engineer by
training in a particularoperations research, which is
all about optimization andcomplex problems.
And um so like I really want togo there because it feels
(53:30):
natural at the same time.
It's funny because like I thinkabout um I'm a big fan of the
free economics franchise, right?
Yeah, and I think I think whatit opened up to me is like this
whole my my one of my one of myolder my oldest son is in a
business school now, and it wetalked about economics, and I
said like the there's problemswith the fundamentals of
(53:50):
economics theory because it'sbased on people acting
rationally and which is just notthe case.
And it's like what's what's funbehavioral economics is because
there's obviously there's otherthings other than people acting
in a rational way, like and soum I think uh like your point,
like over the years, this issort of like I've evolved and
(54:12):
gone like um, like what do Ithink is important to the point
where last year, when I wrote awhite paper for the market apps
community about uh measuringeffectiveness of B2B marketing,
uh one of the perspectives Italked about is narrative,
right?
There's a storytelling componentthat is not really data at all,
right?
But it's looking at like when wewin deals, you know, what are
(54:36):
the characteristics of exampleones that we have that we can
tell, like point to?
Like we won this deal with logoX.
Here are all the things thathappen across sales marketing,
customer experience, whateverthat led to that, and how can we
take that and feed it back intowhat we do when we go to market?
And um, it's it's often, Ithink, many, many marketers who
should be really good at thestorytelling don't do it very
(54:58):
well internally.
unknown (54:59):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (54:59):
And it's a missed opportunity in my book.
For sure.
Well, hey, Sarah, thank you somuch.
This has been a lot of fun.
If if folks want to keep up withwhat you're talking about,
continue the conversation withyou or whatever, what's the best
way for them to do that?
SPEAKER_01 (55:11):
Yeah, um, so I always direct people to LinkedIn
just because it's where I'm mostactive.
So you can always find me there.
Sarah Lanehan, uh LanehanConsulting is my my company.
Um, I also go by the hashtagMopsFerry.
Um, so I am very much whimsical.
Um, and that ended up kind ofcoming into my personal brand,
(55:32):
which has been really fun thislast year.
Um, but yeah, LinkedIn is ishonestly the best.
I mean, I I have a website andI'm on the HubSpot um providers
uh pages, but I don't haveconversations those places.
And I'd much rather have a humanconversation.
Um so LinkedIn um is the placeto find me.
SPEAKER_02 (55:55):
Fantastic.
Again, Sarah, thank you so much.
I'm so glad we got to do this.
Um so appreciate that.
Thanks always to our uh ouraudience out there.
As always, if you havesuggestions for topics or
guests, or you want to be aguest, please reach out to
Naomi, Mike, or me.
We'd be happy to do that.
Till next time.
Bye, everybody.
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