November 11, 2025 • 41 mins
Unpacking the Historical Roots of White Women in Education
Mandy Griffin and Katy Swalwell delve into the complex history of white women in American education, exploring their roles from the 18th century to the present and how these roles have been shaped by societal norms and systemic issues. The discussion includes the evolution of public schools, the feminization of the teaching profession, and the exclusion of educators of color, focusing on the impact of figures like Horace Mann and Catherine Beecher. The episode also critiques current educational practices and emphasizes the importance of critical reflection, curriculum inclusivity, and understanding the socioeconomic contexts of education.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker (00:00):
Hi, this is Mandy Griffin.
(00:01):
And I'm Katie Swalwell, andwelcome to our Dirty Laundry,
stories of white ladies making amess of things and how we need
to clean up our act.
Mandy (00:15):
Hi everybody.
katy (00:16):
Hi.
I feel very rusty today.
It's been a while.
Mandy (00:20):
I know.
this is what we do.
We like
katy (00:22):
I
Mandy (00:22):
project and we're really good
katy (00:24):
know.
I know.
Mandy (00:25):
and
katy (00:25):
And then we
Mandy (00:26):
we
katy (00:26):
fall off.
Mandy (00:28):
oh, okay, we gotta take a
katy (00:29):
I
Mandy (00:29):
for
katy (00:29):
know.
Mandy (00:30):
And then it turns into a much longer than a minute, but
katy (00:33):
Yes, a metaphorical minute.
I was laughing today because Ithought, gosh, if we were better
organized about this season,what I wanna teach you today
probably would've been like thevery first thing we did.
But I don't think it matters,like time's, not linear.
We're li we're, this is aquantum podcast.
You're here, there, layers ofthings.
It's fine.
You, you can learn things out oforder.
Mandy (00:54):
But can I teach one really quick lesson about when
time is important?
Just
katy (00:58):
Okay.
Mandy (00:59):
this, like my A DHD brain just went squirrel when we
katy (01:02):
Yes.
Okay.
Okay.
Mandy (01:03):
let me take this moment to educate people on something
in the medical field, sincethat's what I do.
For
katy (01:10):
Yeah.
Mandy (01:10):
listening who has not heard I work, my main job is in
the emergency department and oneof my.
Biggest pet peeves in the entireworld is when I ask a patient,
when something started, when didyour chest pain start?
When did your headache start?
When did you start vomiting?
And they're just like, oh it'sbeen a while.
And I'm like.
katy (01:29):
I, I absolutely say that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Mandy (01:33):
that mean to you?
Was it
katy (01:35):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (01:36):
Has it been like three months?
Has it been like, I don't, awhile does not help me.
Like I want a date and a time.
Or when people say somethinglike, oh, it started when I got
home from work.
don't live with you.
I don't know when you got homefrom work.
know what
katy (01:50):
Yeah.
Mandy (01:51):
schedule is like.
No.
And the youths love to say it'sbeen a minute, like that's their
thing for instead of a while,it's been a minute.
I'm like, Oh so one minute ago.
So you had a symptoms for aminute and then you came into
the It makes me so irritated.
Of course, when I'm talking tosomeone, I
katy (02:08):
Oh yeah.
Mandy (02:09):
and professionally.
I'm like, tell me exactly whatthat means to you.
'cause I don't know, is that aday or
katy (02:13):
In this moment, I'm, I'm picturing me in the room, like
whispering into the patient'sear oh, she hates you.
Oh, she's being nice, but shefucking hates you.
Just to
Mandy (02:24):
like,
katy (02:25):
reveal you.
I know,
Mandy (02:27):
give me a
katy (02:28):
but here's.
Mandy (02:28):
timeframe.
That
katy (02:30):
In defense of these patients because this is
absolutely how I respond.
It is hard because whensomething initially starts
happening, I don't really starttracking it until I've noticed
that it is on repeat a littlebit.
It's not like your period whereyou're like, oh, here it is
today, and I put in my calendar.
Mandy (02:51):
calendar every
katy (02:52):
Oh, I, it's why I put in my calendar.
I'm like, okay, it's happening.
B, you know, otherwise I won'tremember, but at least I, I know
it's this thing that's happeningthat I mark on my calendar.
If I have like indigestion oroh, I have weird hip pain.
It's oh, it's, who knows?
It could be a million differentthings.
It's not like I get into mycalendar and I'm like, hip pain.
I don't wanna be the neuroticnightmare person who's four,
(03:15):
4:12 PM March 7th, hip pain.
It, it like, then it would justbe nonstop me logging things,
you know?
So it's like you, you have togive it a bit before you start
to say, yes, this is a thing.
And then, so whenever I do,whenever a doctor asks like,
when is it started?
I'm like, well, I started.
(03:35):
Tracking it at this time, butthat it, it's always some
indeterminate period beforethat.
Plus, I rarely just have anysense of where and when I am.
Let's just be honest, like I'mfloating through this universe.
So the fact that I got to thatappointment and I am there is a
(03:56):
feat.
Mandy (03:57):
sense and I'm, I'm completely on board with that
when we're talking about likeissues that you're going to see
a primary care for when you'rein the emergency room.
katy (04:07):
Okay.
Yeah, that's totally fair.
That's, yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Mandy (04:10):
been going on for a while.
katy (04:11):
That's
Mandy (04:12):
Because
katy (04:13):
fair.
Mandy (04:13):
answer to a while is, well, it hasn't killed you yet,
So go make an appointment with
katy (04:18):
So go home.
Mandy (04:20):
and get outta
katy (04:21):
Oh.
Oh my gosh.
Mandy (04:22):
there's tons of people out there listening to this that
are gonna be pissy about thisnow.
'cause I've been on the boards.
I know.
People hate emergency rooms.
They hate emergency roomproviders.
They think we don't care.
katy (04:32):
You do care.
No, you care so much.
Mandy (04:35):
your primary care provider.
And I know that primary care inthis country sucks.
And I
katy (04:40):
know that.
Mandy (04:40):
super hard to get into anybody.
And I don't like when people arelegitimately and like earnestly
coming to the ER because theycan't get into their primary
katy (04:51):
Right, right, right.
Mandy (04:52):
That's fine.
But that is, I'm gonna tell youRight.
now, that is not how.
Most people present to the er.
You think that most people arereasonable, not the people that
come to the ER all the
katy (05:02):
Do you think the hospital would be willing to pay me to
sit out front and be like aconcierge that's welcome to the
hospital, and then I would bethe buffer.
Mandy (05:13):
Screener?
katy (05:13):
right, who's scream.
I'm like, great, you this iswhat is happening to you.
You can move to the left, andthe left is like the exit to the
hospital.
And then someone gives youinformation about primary care
doctors who are taking patientsor whatever.
Maybe that would be a service Icould provide.
Mandy (05:29):
and that's like a good selling point for universal
healthcare'cause that is
katy (05:34):
Oh, yeah.
Mandy (05:35):
work in countries that have universal healthcare.
If you go to the ER and youdon't have an emergency, they
send you over to the urgent careor the primary care, but that's
because they know that you'll beaccepted there.
katy (05:46):
Right.
Mandy (05:47):
medical system, there's no guarantee that you're
katy (05:49):
No.
Mandy (05:50):
by any of
katy (05:51):
No.
Mandy (05:51):
people.
So one.
Hospitals just take everything,even if it's bullshit, because
they don't want the liability ofdismissing something that can't
be
katy (05:59):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (06:00):
two, because quite frankly, hospitals make a shit
ton of money off of patientscoming into the er,
katy (06:06):
Mm.
Mandy (06:06):
the providers.
So get this straight.
Let me also educate on this.
you get an ER bill, thepercentage of it that's going to
your actual medical provider isminuscule.
katy (06:16):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (06:17):
that is going to the hospitals is astronomical, and
katy (06:21):
Okay.
This is
Mandy (06:22):
CEOs of
katy (06:23):
okay.
That's my question is.
Mandy (06:25):
millions of dollars, and all of the other C-suite people
underneath them.
And like for example, I took Samseveral years ago and he broke
his arm.
My hospital bill was$2,600.
He just got an X-ray.
That's it.
katy (06:41):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (06:41):
ER for like less than an hour.
He got an x-ray and a splint,$2,600.
The physician portion of thatbill was$80.
katy (06:49):
Oh
Mandy (06:50):
So this is where our anger should be
katy (06:53):
yeah.
I mean, you don't need to sellme.
Mandy (06:55):
We know, we
katy (06:56):
On universal healthcare.
You don't need to sell me onanger and rage.
Yes, that, oh my God, that's,ugh.
We'll knock on all the woodthat, yeah.
No, no, no, no, no.
This is good.
This is helpful.
Thank you for the education.
For those of you who do notknow, Mandy is a trained
physician's assistant in the er.
I am trained in the world ofeducation, which is actually
(07:16):
what we're gonna talk abouttoday is education.
So now we're gonna enter myworld.
Let me school you.
Pun intended.
But this season we've beentalking about.
The weaponization of white womenas mothers.
And one of the things that wekeep coming back to and circling
around is schooling andeducation and white women as
(07:40):
moms interfacing with schools inall kinds of ways.
And we've had amazing interviewsso far with historians and
organizers and just, we keepkind of circling this
connection, but I wanna make itsuper, super clear today that.
Pro.
I will just say, I think the waythis is my stance after doing
(08:00):
some of this background researchfor today is that the most
profound way that white womenweaponize their motherhood is
through education, is throughbeing teachers and schooling.
And I think it's cousin socialwork, which we'll get to, like
how the, you know, just workwith children that you get paid
for, let's put it that way.
(08:20):
Paid underpaid for, we can putthat out there.
Even So, I have a couplearticles that I read to prep for
today and I am kind of teeing usup for.
A whole bunch of stuff and I'mgoing to lay out sort of my map
for the next two to four yearssince we don't regularly record.
(08:42):
Who knows how long this is goingto take.
Maybe six weeks.
We'll see how it goes.
Okay.
But I really think that evenjust thinking of the word we've
chosen for the season ofweaponizing motherhood
Mandy (08:53):
Mm-hmm.
katy (08:54):
actually not even that metaphorical.
It's.
It's sometimes literal.
Mandy (08:58):
Yeah.
katy (08:59):
first article that I pulled is by two scholars Zeus,
Leonardo and Erica Boaz.
And Zeus Leonardo is one of myfavorite scholars who studies
race like in a sociological kindof way.
I think his work is just soincredibly helpful, and this is
from.
A chapter they wrote calledOther Kids Teachers, what
Children of Color Learn fromWhite Women and what this says
(09:21):
about race, whiteness, andgender in the handbook of
critical Race theory andeducation.
And they say, just as every armyis composed of different
tactical positions in order tosecure or conquer a territory.
So does whiteness consist of itsown foot soldiers officers in
generals who perform differentfunctions but whose allegiance
to whiteness is not the questionwith respect to white women.
(09:44):
Although they may not call theshots, they often pull the
trigger.
Yep.
Mandy (09:49):
that's pretty
katy (09:50):
I
Mandy (09:51):
sums up everything that we've,
katy (09:52):
I know it's a tagline for this podcast.
Mandy (09:55):
Yeah,
katy (09:56):
I know.
Mandy (09:56):
the trigger.
katy (09:57):
Yes.
I mean, I honestly sometimes docall the shots like I'm thinking
about Elizabeth GillespieMcCray's book that we read and
all the ways that white women inthe South that she was tracking
over many decades.
We're increasingly, I think,power brokers in all kinds of
ways, but not in formalpositions of power.
Very rarely in institutionalformal positions of power.
(10:19):
So when we talk about Zeus,Leonardo Erika Boas, we're
talking specifically about whitewomen teachers, and that's what
I want us to kind of pivot to aswe're thinking about the
weaponization of motherhood andhow white women exercise that
through the profession ofteaching.
And again, this is what I.
Was trained in, I am aneducator.
(10:40):
This is what I went to schoolfor.
What cracked me up was that Iwas reading stats on white women
in education and in 2020 theaverage teacher, like the
typical teacher across the USwas a 43-year-old white woman.
I was like, hi.
Hi.
Yeah, so the te and thisactually, I think this is, these
(11:02):
stats are, are super, superinteresting to me.
So the, in 2011, the teachingforce was 80% white women.
Was that higher or lower than1986?
Like 30 years before.
80% white women in 2011.
Mandy (11:20):
I mean,
katy (11:21):
Okay.
Mandy (11:22):
higher just'cause I'm always on the end of things more
horrible now.
katy (11:26):
Oh, you're right.
Correct.
Ding, ding, ding.
Mandy (11:28):
trajectory of where we're headed.
katy (11:30):
Yes.
Not great.
We'll circle back to this in alittle bit, but in 1986 it was
69% of teachers were whitewomen, so more white women.
The profession is more.
White women ish than it was.
And the, at the same time, thedemographics of public schools
are increasingly diverse.
And so there are more and morestudents of color.
(11:50):
So in the same year that thestat of 80% white women teachers
existed, it was 50 ish percentof public school students were
students of color.
And now it's about 56% acrossthe nation.
And even this isn't just, evenclassroom teachers.
77% of principals are white.
(12:11):
89% of superintendents arewhite.
79% of school board members arewhite, and principals and
superintendents aredisproportionately white men.
There's like a whole bunch ofgendered stuff going on.
And this is bad for so, so manyreasons.
We have tons of research showingjust the internalized bias that
so many of these educators.
(12:32):
Are likely to have and notinterrogate.
And so there are ways that itplays out in terms of
mistreatment of students notcatching examples of harmful
curriculum.
You know, perpetuating thatthere's a lack of
representation, which is notgood for the kids in the
classroom.
But then even if you lift up,it's also just bad because.
(12:54):
Working in education is a fairlystable middle class professional
option, lower middle classprofessional option, and so
that's just not, it'sincreasingly less.
Accessible to families of color.
So there's even like an economickind of like work angle to this
(13:14):
too.
But we just know that it's not,and it's not to say that a
43-year-old white woman, cough,cough, wink, wink, couldn't be
an amazing educator to.
All kinds of kids, right?
Like that's of course possible.
But the work that that requiresand the preparation and training
and like unlearning that, thatrequires is so intense and
(13:37):
incredible.
And I've worked in many teachereducation programs and like the
best ones I've worked in arebarely doing that, you know?
Mandy (13:46):
Oh.
And it has to be reallyintentional, I
katy (13:49):
Yes.
Mandy (13:50):
in order for it to actually be successful.
and I think that's the partabout it that.
Always gets lost is that you canthink I would never do, I would
never treat a student Of colordifferently.
katy (14:02):
course, right?
Mandy (14:04):
history or under represent things intentionally.
But unless you actually look atwhat you're doing and what's
happening based on data, thenthat is just what happens
because that's how the system'sset up.
katy (14:18):
Mm-hmm.
Yes, exactly.
And we're gonna talk about thesystem, why it was set that way,
how it is set up.
So Leonardo and Boaz talk about,and this is again kind of like
a, a good summary of our podcastfrom enslavement to colonialism.
White women have done the workof white supremacy specific to
their own place in thehierarchy, producing their own
contradictions in the process.
(14:38):
And they talk about how theyare.
So often relegated to social andbiological reproductive roles,
which is why teaching as anextension of motherhood, because
it's caring for children, it'strying to shape children and the
future generations, it is suchan extension of motherhood.
And as the profession ofteaching became feminized, that
(15:02):
connection of like mother andteacher has just become really,
really tight.
They do say, and this is, I likethis because you always are
asking people like, what can wedo?
So what does that mean?
And the chapter ends with reallyspecific action steps.
And I think what we're gonnawork on today and in the next
(15:23):
several episodes is what theyare recommending we do.
And really, this is also theheart of our podcast.
One critically reflect onracialized and gendered
histories and how you areimplicated in them.
Boom.
Two, make race and race historypart of the curriculum and fight
for its maintenance within thecurriculum.
Yes.
Three, teach race as astructural and systemic
(15:45):
construct with materialdifferential outcomes that are
institutionally embedded, notreducible to identities.
Great.
And four, work to understand andteach race not as a personal
crusade.
That is a socio historicalconstruct through which we are
all unequally produced.
Great.
Mandy (16:00):
Yeah,
katy (16:00):
Okay, so get into your time machine.
This is just as you laid out thejoys of the healthcare system.
This is a crash course in thehistory of public schools, and I
want to take a little bit oftime to do this because my plan
is to work us through.
Different historical moments andphases and feature some of the
(16:23):
white women at these phases.
And so it's really useful tohave this context and I think
it's going to shock people justhow recent some of what we take
for granted with public schoolsis that it's actually pretty
new, this idea.
So, okay.
Early Republic, the UnitedStates like Revolutionary War
(16:45):
time.
Late 18th century.
Okay.
This is literally one of theterms in, in one of the articles
I read was hodgepodge and thatis what it was, that there was
no system of schooling.
That it's like real scattered, Idon't know, scattershot.
So you've got some churches thathave schools, you have some
(17:06):
local communities who've pitchedin for kind of like a proto
public school.
You've got traveling.
Tutors for wealthier people.
You've got charity schools thatI'm picturing, like orphanages,
I don't know.
You know, just places that aretrying to keep kids informed or
not even informed, honestly,just contained in some way.
(17:28):
They're we're elite boardingschools pretty early on for
fancy pants.
There were some like homeschoolkinds of things.
Some apprenticeship.
Work things going on.
Just a real mess.
Mandy (17:41):
over the
katy (17:42):
So.
Mandy (17:43):
sort of like colonialistic, like schools for
indigenous populations they'retrying to assimilate.
Maybe
katy (17:51):
we'll get to boarding schools.
Oh, for, we're gonna have awhole lot to say about genocidal
boarding schools for sure.
Mandy (17:57):
Yeah.
katy (17:58):
there, there were some free schools, like what we would
maybe think of as like a publicschool in the northeast and even
a few free schools for AfricanAmerican children, but very,
very limited and not in asystematic way.
Okay.
So.
The revolution's happening.
We have this like democraticfederal republic form of
government that's beingimplemented and the original
(18:23):
kind of.
Conversations around what needsto happen is really looking at
what, what is needed in thatkind of government.
And this is actually a questionthat I ask a lot in workshops
that I facilitate, is we live ina pluralistic, diverse
democratic society or a societyattempting.
Some measure of democracy thathas really deep inequities.
(18:46):
And so what does that require?
What skills, what knowledge,what values?
It's a prompt that I present alot to people, and there's
always been a whole bunch ofways to answer that question.
So if I were to ask you like,what are the skills, knowledge,
and values that you think.
Are necessary for people livingin that kind of like a, even if
(19:11):
we just say democratic society,like really simple, what are,
what would you say are theknowledge, skills, and values
needed?
Mandy (19:18):
Knowledge, skills and values.
And I would say like I think ofsocial programs, like start off
with, what is it?
What does being in a societyoffer someone?
Like why would you be in asociety and want to come
together?
a group of people rather than,you know, homesteading or being
off on your own.
What are the
katy (19:36):
Hmm.
Mandy (19:36):
to that?
And then that's I think where Istart thinking about then what
do you need to set that kind ofthing up so you know, your
katy (19:46):
Hmm.
Mandy (19:46):
basic safety things like road sanitation.
Whatever other kind, you know,you're just rudimentary like
responder kinds of things, andthen getting into sort of like
healthcare, education,
katy (20:02):
Hmm,
Mandy (20:02):
defense, you know?
I
katy (20:04):
so, that's such an interesting answer.
An understanding of the commongood and why you should give a
shit, basically.
Yeah, I think that's reallyimportant.
A lot of times when I ask thatquestion, people will talk about
being informed, you know, sobeing able to read about or
learn about issues of the day,to care about accuracy of
(20:28):
information, to be able todiscuss things with people who
disagree with you.
Like if you think about the corefunction of a citizen as voting,
which is not obviously the onlyfunction of a citizen, but you
think, okay, what does someoneneed to be a good voter?
Like ideally.
Being informed, you know, caringabout other people, like there's
some basic things.
(20:48):
So that's all part of theconversation early on.
But there's also like characterand virtue and that that's right
away, that's not, there's neverconsensus about what the virtues
should be.
Right?
You know, maybe there's someoverlap with people, but.
That's, that's tricky.
(21:09):
But this, these are like theearly things, like to care about
each other.
What are the political andsocial issues?
What does it mean to be a wisevoter?
Selecting representatives tounderstand the rights and
freedoms they have to resistdemagoguery, ideally, you know,
not that that would ever happen.
But there, there's just a, likea whole mess of things.
(21:31):
Of course, at this time.
Keep in mind that.
Almost everywhere.
It was just white propertyowning men who could vote, who
had full citizenship.
So already, if we're thinkingabout some kind of public
education, having like a civicmission that already is not
(21:51):
evenly applied to everyonebecause not everybody has the
same access to citizenship who'sliving in this community, right.
So right off the bat, there wasalso an understanding of what
that meant for girls.
Oh, because girls are going tobecome mothers.
We need them to care about thesethings too, so that they're
(22:12):
raising children who can be goodcitizens, basically.
Mandy (22:17):
Boy, children to
katy (22:18):
Boy, the boy children, right?
And then girls to be futuremothers.
Mandy (22:21):
Yeah.
katy (22:22):
And again, we're talking just about like white girls in
that.
So there's all even if you'rethinking just civics and you're
not, of course there's otherthings like, oh, you want people
to be able to get a job and youknow, capitalist reasons, like
there's a whole bunch of stuff.
But that's how it gets kind ofset up is that girls should also
be educated because they aregoing to be mothers who.
(22:44):
We need to educate virtuouspeople, right?
Yep.
Of course, this is like ignoringenslavement and public schools
even early on.
So this, we're talking like1780s, the federal government,
early, early US federalgovernment starts giving a whole
bunch of land that they have.
(23:06):
Stolen from native people to newstates as they enter the union
with the agreement that thosenew states set aside a portion
of those lands to support publicschools, including public
universities.
So if you've heard of a landgrant university, that these are
land grants, that's that's whatit is.
So it was totally dependent oncolonial settler colonialism.
(23:28):
The land theft and that some ofthat land would then be reserved
for building communities aroundschools.
So there's also this like darkconnection to the creation of
public schools to land theftand.
Yeah, that genocide.
So there's that.
Yeah, of course.
Then you have like early 18hundreds.
(23:50):
The industrial revolution isreally, really picking up.
You have at up until this point,the schools that did exist, most
of the teachers were men.
But as the Industrial Revolutionpicks up, this is when the, the
profession starts changing.
Not that women weren't also partof the industrial revolution or
working in factories orwhatever, but as, as the
(24:11):
industrial Revolution combinedwith capitalism is opening up
economic opportunities,especially for white men, white
women become like teaching is away for them to have some sort
of honorable professional workthat is.
Seems to be appropriate for thembecause it involves children.
So the profession getsfeminized, and this is like
(24:34):
rabbit hole.
We could go down for anotherday.
I'm fascinated by this.
It's still, there's modernresearch being done about this
for college attendance fordifferent professions.
It's called the tipping pointtheory, that when enough women
are in a space that men evacuateit.
Completely.
So it's like a few women arefine, but then once there's more
(24:56):
women, it suddenly becomes likea girl job and then gone.
The boys are gone.
Right.
So with this is re modernresearch shows white collar jobs
tip for when it's 25 to 45%women, then men start leaving
that field, and blue collar jobsis lower.
It's 13 to 30%.
(25:17):
Women in a position, then menstart leaving that field.
It's not wild.
So
Mandy (25:22):
Yeah,
katy (25:22):
you get, you, all you need are like a quarter of the
teachers to be women.
For men to be like, Ew, girls,do this job.
I'm out.
Mandy (25:31):
it just
katy (25:31):
So then
Mandy (25:31):
that whole like thing about where do men actually even
like women
katy (25:35):
I dunno.
I dunno.
It's so weird.
I don't understand.
I don't understand.
I.
Mandy (25:41):
at least they're not socialized to actually like
women.
'cause everything that they'retaught is to be like, Ooh, girls
katy (25:48):
It's so, it's wild.
I, I am raising a son.
I think about this all the time.
Mandy (25:53):
All the
katy (25:53):
And of course, as professions, feminize salaries
decline for the exact same work,right?
That's like it over and over andover and over and over, and over
and over.
It happens.
And in teaching, it's one of thefirst professions that we see
this happen.
Mandy (26:04):
Yeah.
katy (26:05):
you do have men then shifting to like leadership
roles in public education.
But that's it.
Okay, so now it's feminizing.
1830s Horace Mann, maybe a namepeople are familiar with, is
this legislator in Massachusettswho is into the idea of public
schools and that they should be,quote, universally available to
(26:25):
all children free of charge andfunded by the state.
But of course, universal is, hasa gigantic asterisk because it's
1830.
So let's be real.
Okay.
So he starts arguing for thisidea of common schools and that
everybody will benefit.
And I actually am very, I saythings like this all the time in
(26:46):
different jobs that I have iseveryone benefits from strong
public schools.
It doesn't matter if you haveyour own kids.
Mandy (26:52):
of course.
katy (26:53):
everyone benefits, right?
And I, I do believe in a deeplycivic, broadly defined mission
of schools, more than a careermission, more than a college
readiness mission like theCivic.
Just being like a decentcommunity member is who gives a
shit about other people.
That's a core, to me, that's themost important thing.
(27:13):
Other people would say otherthings, but.
They're wrong.
Okay.
So, but they, so this idea thatman had is that we'll have
reading, writing, arithmetic,we'll have some social studies,
some rhetoric, and like somephilosophy.
We'll have moral instruction.
We'll, we'll, poor kids, middleclass kids, and, and especially
we want rich kids to also bepart of public schools because
(27:35):
the point is to have this mix.
But of course it's not like thefull mix.
Because there's massivesegregation.
Mandy (27:42):
Yep.
katy (27:43):
But even his argument was still considered like some kind
of reform.
Right.
And of course, even his, likethis version of things still
kicks up massive resistance.
I'm sure you are shocked.
So he's arguing against.
Private schools and wanting tomake sure that everybody is
(28:04):
there, right?
And so of course you have snootysnoots who don't.
They think of it as like the ta,and we still hear this today,
that they're thinking abouttaxes that are going towards
common schools as being akin totuition.
So they're like, why would I payfor somebody else's kid to go to
school?
It's so shortsighted andselfish.
(28:26):
I am editorializing again.
I'm right.
So that's fine.
And it's infuriating, but thisis right off the bat, right?
Mandy (28:33):
yep.
katy (28:34):
you've got people who.
Mandy (28:36):
are fine.
Where we literally pay tosubsidize rich people sending
their
katy (28:41):
Yeah.
Mandy (28:41):
to
katy (28:41):
Right, right.
Mandy (28:42):
That's
katy (28:43):
Yes, yes, of course.
Yes.
Okay.
So this is one of those classicmoments in history where you
have the baddy bads, but thenyou have the people who are
arguing for something that maybefeels better, but they're still,
it's still complicated becauseof course, the people arguing
for common schools still don't.
They're not arguing fordesegregated schools or like for
(29:04):
every kid to go to school, andthey're, they're also seeing it
as a way to eliminate poverty,crime, social problems.
And it sure there's an elementof that, but it's capitalism is
why there's poverty.
You know, there's other thingsgoing on that you can't put on
schools, which is still aproblem.
There's just so much oh,schools, schools will be the
(29:24):
answer to everything when it's,it's a part of the equation, but
not the full equation.
Some early leaders, this comesfrom a department of Ed, history
of public schools, argued thatthe costs of properly educating
children in public schools wouldbe far less than the expenses of
punishing a jail and criminalsand coping with problems
stemming from poverty.
It's just, it's, you still hearthat rhetoric today, which is
basically blaming the individualperson instead of being able to
(29:47):
understand these systems andstructures.
But this, all this rhetoric isvery, very, very old.
So horseman succeeds, commonschools get started and people
in the community come together.
School boards get formed and it.
Actually a lot in most placesbecomes this hub of the
community.
Like the school is the heart ofthese communities, especially in
(30:08):
small rural communities forsure.
But of course it's, there'smassive exclusion, massive
segregation race and ethnicity.
I think we've been very clearabout that in many other
episodes for all different kidsof color, all different,
ethnicities and the boardingschools, we will absolutely
dedicate a lot of time to that.
(30:29):
Just that, because that in andof itself, white women, wow.
There is like a gross, gross,gross, gross history there.
There's also gender segregation.
And even when schools are co-ed,often girls get different
curriculum than the boys do,like girl curriculum, you know,
or they can't do these thingsbecause if they do that, then
their ovaries will shrink, youknow, they won't be able to have
(30:52):
babies.
Um, there's all sorts of itconcerns for students with
disabilities and they're notserved at all or really
mistreated language issues.
Religious bias.
This is actually where Catholicschools boom, is that Catholic
kids were discriminated againstbecause so many of these, the
common schools, the publicschools are deeply embedded in
(31:14):
Protestant Christianity.
Like the early readers like.
McGuffey readers, we're actuallygonna do a special episode just
on McGuffey and how bullshitthey are.
So there it's just all superwhite Protestant Christians.
So Catholics are like, fuckthis, we're gonna do our own
schools.
Okay.
So through the 19th century,public schools are growing,
growing, growing.
There more and more states are.
(31:38):
Taking charge of, of publiceducation and putting it into
their state constitutions.
It's not a federal thing.
There are federal initiatives,but it's actually the state's
responsibilities.
So here's where I'm gonna haveyou guess some stats.
Are you ready?
Okay.
Get ready.
1830.
How many kids in the us whatpercentage of children.
(32:01):
By children, I mean five to 14,like K eight were enrolled.
What percentage in 1830?
Mandy (32:07):
I'm just gonna go with 30%,
katy (32:09):
Ooh, 55.
Higher than I would've guessedtoo.
1870.
So 40 years later, what do youthink the percentage is?
Mandy (32:18):
Maybe 75%.
katy (32:21):
Ooh, 78.
If I had a prize to give you, Iwould give it to you.
Okay, then let's think abouthigh school.
Things start out at theelementary level.
In 1910, how many Americans hadcompleted high school?
How many US adults had completedhigh school?
Mandy (32:39):
because high school?
was not considered likesomething necessary.
It was like
katy (32:43):
You're right.
Mandy (32:44):
so maybe like 16%.
katy (32:47):
Oh my God, you were so good at this.
14, 14%.
This is my grandpa.
That's, yeah, for sure.
And then in 1970, how many USadults had completed high
school?
Mandy (33:01):
I would put it more at 60%.
katy (33:03):
Holy, you should today go buy every lottery ticket you can
find.
It's 55%
Mandy (33:11):
tonight.
Get
katy (33:12):
Vegas, baby.
It's why you live there.
I know.
Don't, don't lie.
And then in 2017, it's 90%.
So in a hundred years it wentfrom 14%.
High school graduation rates to90% high.
Like that's pretty astonishing.
So we take, I think we just takeit so for granted that this is
(33:32):
just.
Like the system and how itworks, but it's really recent.
Mandy (33:35):
Yeah.
katy (33:36):
the forties as World War II's happening, teacher
education is becoming morestandardized.
Teacher unions are becomingstronger, so they're requiring
professional accreditation.
Okay, so this is where the whiteWomanness just gets even more
entrenched because mostaccredited teacher ed programs
were at universities that didnot allow.
(33:57):
Students of color to attend.
So if you now have requirementsthat in order to be a teacher
you had to go to an accreditedprogram, but that accredited
program does not let you in.
Good luck becoming a teacher.
Right.
So that is a problem.
A lot of teachers unions wouldnot allow members of color.
So that's a problem.
(34:18):
And then we've talked about thisa little bit before.
1954 is Brown v Board ofEducation Court case, and this
is when tens of thousands ofblack educators who were
teaching in the segregatedschools cannot get jobs anymore.
They are fired, laid off bydistricts because the white
superintendents do not believethat they can teach or should
(34:40):
teach white children.
So before Brown View Board ofEducation, but that before that
court case of all educators inthe country, about 35 to 40%
were black teachers.
After Brown View Board, itdropped to 7% and it still
hasn't recovered, which is justshocking.
So who fills that void?
(35:01):
White women.
Yeah, it's still, it's stilljust super low.
So it's the history of this andunderstanding why is so
important.
And I can tell you as someonewho has worked with pre-service
teachers, so manywell-intentioned white women,
like so many, and they trulybelieve like.
(35:22):
When you don't know any of thishistory and you don't know this
context, it's so easy to believethat I wanna be a teacher
because I love kids,
Mandy (35:29):
Mm-hmm.
katy (35:30):
I'm passionate about education.
It's well, kind of, but you alsowanna be a teacher because you
are being brought up in thisdeeply racist.
Class gendered society that isfunneling you this way.
That's also a massive part of itand giving you opportunities
that other people haven't hadthat it's not a coincidence.
If you look around and everybodyelse is a white woman, you
(35:52):
shouldn't be like, I bet it'sjust innate.
I bet we all just love childrenmore than anybody.
Like what the fuck?
That cannot be the reason.
Mandy (35:59):
No.
Yeah.
katy (36:01):
So what's up?
Mandy (36:02):
Yeah.
katy (36:02):
I would love the, oh my God.
Wouldn't it be amazing if I,like when I was a professor, if
I had opened a class and one ofmy students was like, why are we
all white women?
That would be.
I, I would just say like a plus
Mandy (36:14):
for the
katy (36:15):
pass.
Mandy (36:15):
the semester.
katy (36:16):
You can just start teaching.
Like it's, it would be amazingto just have someone notice it
and vocalize it and wonder aboutit, because that is a huge part
of the problem is that it's noteven something people are
curious about.
Or maybe they kind of notice it,but then they don't, they bury
it or dismiss it or what, youknow, it's look around.
(36:37):
When you are in a place and it'sall other people, think about
the reason why that might bebecause it's never just a
coincidence.
Come on.
Mandy (36:44):
Yeah.
katy (36:45):
Okay?
Mandy (36:45):
same could definitely be said in medicine, like
katy (36:48):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (36:49):
and you know that, I mean, I, I get called a nurse
every single shift that I work,and it's not like any disrespect
to nursing'cause they have avery hard
katy (37:00):
No, sure
Mandy (37:01):
And they, it's like fantastic.
katy (37:03):
Mom.
Mandy (37:03):
That there are people who wanna do it, but
katy (37:06):
Right
Mandy (37:07):
just no, I'm, I'm not a nurse.
Just because I'm a female
katy (37:11):
Mom.
Mandy (37:11):
room in a healthcare setting doesn't
katy (37:13):
I know.
No, for sure.
Mandy (37:15):
Yeah.
katy (37:15):
Well, last couple things in this timeline to just set the
stage.
So 1965 is when the Elementaryand Secondary Education Act
passes and the individuals withDisabilities Act, and this is
the first time that legislation.
Is laid out at a federal levelthat is unequivocally committed
(37:36):
to what we would say isuniversal education.
Like for the first time in amore real substantial way, it's
talking about children inpoverty.
It's talking about children ofcolor, children who are learning
English as a second language,children with disabilities,
girls like.
And this is why this legislationis also under attack right now,
but 1965 is not that long ago.
(37:58):
So just I mentioned this before,but the Constitution, the US
Constitution does not mentioneducation.
Right.
And, and that being said, thereis federal, like the ESEA, the
IDA, those are federal.
Pieces of legislation.
The Department of Education islike a, well, it was, I don't
know where it stands right now,but there are federal like
(38:18):
interventions, but it's reallythe states that make all sorts
of decisions, like the schoolcalendar, the standards, testing
requirements, graduationrequirements, teacher licensure,
like all of that is at the statelevel.
And then funding, um, most, soabout half of school funding
comes from the state.
A little less than half comesfrom local.
(38:39):
Taxes, like property taxestypically.
And then this tiny, like singledigit percent, like seven 8%
comes from federal monies.
So it's one of those thingswhere if the federal money, if
they say they're not going togive it to you for some reason,
it's hard to.
Lose that percentage, eventhough it's relatively small,
it, most schools still can't saylike, yeah, take 8% of my
(39:02):
budget.
I'm gonna ignore yourstipulations.
Which right now is scary becausethe stipulations are bonkers,
which I made into a fivesyllable board.
Yes.
So what we're going to look atmoving forward is we're gonna
dig in first to pre 20thcentury, like 18th, 19th
century.
This, all of this diggingdeeper.
(39:22):
The next time we're gonna talkabout this woman, Catherine
Beecher.
So get ready for that.
And then we're gonna take a abunch of time to talk about
boarding schools for indigenouschildren because that is
Mandy (39:34):
Yeah, there's a lot of
katy (39:35):
horrific.
Mandy (39:37):
women shit going down there.
katy (39:39):
Oh my God.
And it's act.
It's just not something in theUS that there's nearly enough
awareness about.
I think Canada has done a waybetter job, but wow.
Holy shit.
And then we're gonna pivot tolook at the 20th century and
21st century.
And honestly, both of thesewhite women are pitched as save
your mother figures.
Who are using their work asteachers and in this like
(40:00):
weaponized motherhood, whitewomanness kind of way.
Um, but there are somedifferences that I think are
really interesting.
And when we get into the 20th,21st century, there are a few
white women that I cannot waitto talk about, and that includes
Wendy Copp, who founded Teachfor America, Aaron Gruel, who is
the, ooh, the, an Englishteacher, gosh, I, now I'm
(40:24):
blanking, but we're, she'sfamous for being like a savior
sort of teacher.
And Luanne Johnson, who's thedangerous minds real life
person.
There's so many examples, but Ithink especially in popular
culture, the white woman.
Saves students of color trope.
(40:45):
We're gonna really unpack anddig into that when we get to the
21st century.
So put on your
Mandy (40:52):
up.
katy (40:53):
belts,
Mandy (40:54):
Here
katy (40:54):
we're going to, we're gonna dive into Catherine
Beecher.
If anybody wants to poke arounda little bit before then,
Mandy (41:00):
Okay.
Sounds
katy (41:01):
good to see you.
Mandy (41:03):
Yes.
Okay.
I am
katy (41:04):
All right.
Mandy (41:05):
for this.
Well, excited.
You know, whatever.
to know what words we shoulduse.
katy (41:10):
We are eager to learn more.
Mandy (41:13):
Yep.
katy (41:14):
Yes.
Alright,
Mandy (41:15):
it next time.
bye.
everybody.
katy (41:17):
bye.
Hi, this is Mandy Griffin.
(00:01):
And I'm Katie Swalwell, andwelcome to our Dirty Laundry,
stories of white ladies making amess of things and how we need
to clean up our act.
Mandy (00:15):
Hi everybody.
katy (00:16):
Hi.
I feel very rusty today.
It's been a while.
Mandy (00:20):
I know.
this is what we do.
We like
katy (00:22):
I
Mandy (00:22):
project and we're really good
katy (00:24):
know.
I know.
Mandy (00:25):
and
katy (00:25):
And then we
Mandy (00:26):
we
katy (00:26):
fall off.
Mandy (00:28):
oh, okay, we gotta take a
katy (00:29):
I
Mandy (00:29):
for
katy (00:29):
know.
Mandy (00:30):
And then it turns into a much longer than a minute, but
katy (00:33):
Yes, a metaphorical minute.
I was laughing today because Ithought, gosh, if we were better
organized about this season,what I wanna teach you today
probably would've been like thevery first thing we did.
But I don't think it matters,like time's, not linear.
We're li we're, this is aquantum podcast.
You're here, there, layers ofthings.
It's fine.
You, you can learn things out oforder.
Mandy (00:54):
But can I teach one really quick lesson about when
time is important?
Just
katy (00:58):
Okay.
Mandy (00:59):
this, like my A DHD brain just went squirrel when we
katy (01:02):
Yes.
Okay.
Okay.
Mandy (01:03):
let me take this moment to educate people on something
in the medical field, sincethat's what I do.
For
katy (01:10):
Yeah.
Mandy (01:10):
listening who has not heard I work, my main job is in
the emergency department and oneof my.
Biggest pet peeves in the entireworld is when I ask a patient,
when something started, when didyour chest pain start?
When did your headache start?
When did you start vomiting?
And they're just like, oh it'sbeen a while.
And I'm like.
katy (01:29):
I, I absolutely say that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Mandy (01:33):
that mean to you?
Was it
katy (01:35):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (01:36):
Has it been like three months?
Has it been like, I don't, awhile does not help me.
Like I want a date and a time.
Or when people say somethinglike, oh, it started when I got
home from work.
don't live with you.
I don't know when you got homefrom work.
know what
katy (01:50):
Yeah.
Mandy (01:51):
schedule is like.
No.
And the youths love to say it'sbeen a minute, like that's their
thing for instead of a while,it's been a minute.
I'm like, Oh so one minute ago.
So you had a symptoms for aminute and then you came into
the It makes me so irritated.
Of course, when I'm talking tosomeone, I
katy (02:08):
Oh yeah.
Mandy (02:09):
and professionally.
I'm like, tell me exactly whatthat means to you.
'cause I don't know, is that aday or
katy (02:13):
In this moment, I'm, I'm picturing me in the room, like
whispering into the patient'sear oh, she hates you.
Oh, she's being nice, but shefucking hates you.
Just to
Mandy (02:24):
like,
katy (02:25):
reveal you.
I know,
Mandy (02:27):
give me a
katy (02:28):
but here's.
Mandy (02:28):
timeframe.
That
katy (02:30):
In defense of these patients because this is
absolutely how I respond.
It is hard because whensomething initially starts
happening, I don't really starttracking it until I've noticed
that it is on repeat a littlebit.
It's not like your period whereyou're like, oh, here it is
today, and I put in my calendar.
Mandy (02:51):
calendar every
katy (02:52):
Oh, I, it's why I put in my calendar.
I'm like, okay, it's happening.
B, you know, otherwise I won'tremember, but at least I, I know
it's this thing that's happeningthat I mark on my calendar.
If I have like indigestion oroh, I have weird hip pain.
It's oh, it's, who knows?
It could be a million differentthings.
It's not like I get into mycalendar and I'm like, hip pain.
I don't wanna be the neuroticnightmare person who's four,
(03:15):
4:12 PM March 7th, hip pain.
It, it like, then it would justbe nonstop me logging things,
you know?
So it's like you, you have togive it a bit before you start
to say, yes, this is a thing.
And then, so whenever I do,whenever a doctor asks like,
when is it started?
I'm like, well, I started.
(03:35):
Tracking it at this time, butthat it, it's always some
indeterminate period beforethat.
Plus, I rarely just have anysense of where and when I am.
Let's just be honest, like I'mfloating through this universe.
So the fact that I got to thatappointment and I am there is a
(03:56):
feat.
Mandy (03:57):
sense and I'm, I'm completely on board with that
when we're talking about likeissues that you're going to see
a primary care for when you'rein the emergency room.
katy (04:07):
Okay.
Yeah, that's totally fair.
That's, yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Mandy (04:10):
been going on for a while.
katy (04:11):
That's
Mandy (04:12):
Because
katy (04:13):
fair.
Mandy (04:13):
answer to a while is, well, it hasn't killed you yet,
So go make an appointment with
katy (04:18):
So go home.
Mandy (04:20):
and get outta
katy (04:21):
Oh.
Oh my gosh.
Mandy (04:22):
there's tons of people out there listening to this that
are gonna be pissy about thisnow.
'cause I've been on the boards.
I know.
People hate emergency rooms.
They hate emergency roomproviders.
They think we don't care.
katy (04:32):
You do care.
No, you care so much.
Mandy (04:35):
your primary care provider.
And I know that primary care inthis country sucks.
And I
katy (04:40):
know that.
Mandy (04:40):
super hard to get into anybody.
And I don't like when people arelegitimately and like earnestly
coming to the ER because theycan't get into their primary
katy (04:51):
Right, right, right.
Mandy (04:52):
That's fine.
But that is, I'm gonna tell youRight.
now, that is not how.
Most people present to the er.
You think that most people arereasonable, not the people that
come to the ER all the
katy (05:02):
Do you think the hospital would be willing to pay me to
sit out front and be like aconcierge that's welcome to the
hospital, and then I would bethe buffer.
Mandy (05:13):
Screener?
katy (05:13):
right, who's scream.
I'm like, great, you this iswhat is happening to you.
You can move to the left, andthe left is like the exit to the
hospital.
And then someone gives youinformation about primary care
doctors who are taking patientsor whatever.
Maybe that would be a service Icould provide.
Mandy (05:29):
and that's like a good selling point for universal
healthcare'cause that is
katy (05:34):
Oh, yeah.
Mandy (05:35):
work in countries that have universal healthcare.
If you go to the ER and youdon't have an emergency, they
send you over to the urgent careor the primary care, but that's
because they know that you'll beaccepted there.
katy (05:46):
Right.
Mandy (05:47):
medical system, there's no guarantee that you're
katy (05:49):
No.
Mandy (05:50):
by any of
katy (05:51):
No.
Mandy (05:51):
people.
So one.
Hospitals just take everything,even if it's bullshit, because
they don't want the liability ofdismissing something that can't
be
katy (05:59):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (06:00):
two, because quite frankly, hospitals make a shit
ton of money off of patientscoming into the er,
katy (06:06):
Mm.
Mandy (06:06):
the providers.
So get this straight.
Let me also educate on this.
you get an ER bill, thepercentage of it that's going to
your actual medical provider isminuscule.
katy (06:16):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (06:17):
that is going to the hospitals is astronomical, and
katy (06:21):
Okay.
This is
Mandy (06:22):
CEOs of
katy (06:23):
okay.
That's my question is.
Mandy (06:25):
millions of dollars, and all of the other C-suite people
underneath them.
And like for example, I took Samseveral years ago and he broke
his arm.
My hospital bill was$2,600.
He just got an X-ray.
That's it.
katy (06:41):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (06:41):
ER for like less than an hour.
He got an x-ray and a splint,$2,600.
The physician portion of thatbill was$80.
katy (06:49):
Oh
Mandy (06:50):
So this is where our anger should be
katy (06:53):
yeah.
I mean, you don't need to sellme.
Mandy (06:55):
We know, we
katy (06:56):
On universal healthcare.
You don't need to sell me onanger and rage.
Yes, that, oh my God, that's,ugh.
We'll knock on all the woodthat, yeah.
No, no, no, no, no.
This is good.
This is helpful.
Thank you for the education.
For those of you who do notknow, Mandy is a trained
physician's assistant in the er.
I am trained in the world ofeducation, which is actually
(07:16):
what we're gonna talk abouttoday is education.
So now we're gonna enter myworld.
Let me school you.
Pun intended.
But this season we've beentalking about.
The weaponization of white womenas mothers.
And one of the things that wekeep coming back to and circling
around is schooling andeducation and white women as
(07:40):
moms interfacing with schools inall kinds of ways.
And we've had amazing interviewsso far with historians and
organizers and just, we keepkind of circling this
connection, but I wanna make itsuper, super clear today that.
Pro.
I will just say, I think the waythis is my stance after doing
(08:00):
some of this background researchfor today is that the most
profound way that white womenweaponize their motherhood is
through education, is throughbeing teachers and schooling.
And I think it's cousin socialwork, which we'll get to, like
how the, you know, just workwith children that you get paid
for, let's put it that way.
(08:20):
Paid underpaid for, we can putthat out there.
Even So, I have a couplearticles that I read to prep for
today and I am kind of teeing usup for.
A whole bunch of stuff and I'mgoing to lay out sort of my map
for the next two to four yearssince we don't regularly record.
(08:42):
Who knows how long this is goingto take.
Maybe six weeks.
We'll see how it goes.
Okay.
But I really think that evenjust thinking of the word we've
chosen for the season ofweaponizing motherhood
Mandy (08:53):
Mm-hmm.
katy (08:54):
actually not even that metaphorical.
It's.
It's sometimes literal.
Mandy (08:58):
Yeah.
katy (08:59):
first article that I pulled is by two scholars Zeus,
Leonardo and Erica Boaz.
And Zeus Leonardo is one of myfavorite scholars who studies
race like in a sociological kindof way.
I think his work is just soincredibly helpful, and this is
from.
A chapter they wrote calledOther Kids Teachers, what
Children of Color Learn fromWhite Women and what this says
(09:21):
about race, whiteness, andgender in the handbook of
critical Race theory andeducation.
And they say, just as every armyis composed of different
tactical positions in order tosecure or conquer a territory.
So does whiteness consist of itsown foot soldiers officers in
generals who perform differentfunctions but whose allegiance
to whiteness is not the questionwith respect to white women.
(09:44):
Although they may not call theshots, they often pull the
trigger.
Yep.
Mandy (09:49):
that's pretty
katy (09:50):
I
Mandy (09:51):
sums up everything that we've,
katy (09:52):
I know it's a tagline for this podcast.
Mandy (09:55):
Yeah,
katy (09:56):
I know.
Mandy (09:56):
the trigger.
katy (09:57):
Yes.
I mean, I honestly sometimes docall the shots like I'm thinking
about Elizabeth GillespieMcCray's book that we read and
all the ways that white women inthe South that she was tracking
over many decades.
We're increasingly, I think,power brokers in all kinds of
ways, but not in formalpositions of power.
Very rarely in institutionalformal positions of power.
(10:19):
So when we talk about Zeus,Leonardo Erika Boas, we're
talking specifically about whitewomen teachers, and that's what
I want us to kind of pivot to aswe're thinking about the
weaponization of motherhood andhow white women exercise that
through the profession ofteaching.
And again, this is what I.
Was trained in, I am aneducator.
(10:40):
This is what I went to schoolfor.
What cracked me up was that Iwas reading stats on white women
in education and in 2020 theaverage teacher, like the
typical teacher across the USwas a 43-year-old white woman.
I was like, hi.
Hi.
Yeah, so the te and thisactually, I think this is, these
(11:02):
stats are, are super, superinteresting to me.
So the, in 2011, the teachingforce was 80% white women.
Was that higher or lower than1986?
Like 30 years before.
80% white women in 2011.
Mandy (11:20):
I mean,
katy (11:21):
Okay.
Mandy (11:22):
higher just'cause I'm always on the end of things more
horrible now.
katy (11:26):
Oh, you're right.
Correct.
Ding, ding, ding.
Mandy (11:28):
trajectory of where we're headed.
katy (11:30):
Yes.
Not great.
We'll circle back to this in alittle bit, but in 1986 it was
69% of teachers were whitewomen, so more white women.
The profession is more.
White women ish than it was.
And the, at the same time, thedemographics of public schools
are increasingly diverse.
And so there are more and morestudents of color.
(11:50):
So in the same year that thestat of 80% white women teachers
existed, it was 50 ish percentof public school students were
students of color.
And now it's about 56% acrossthe nation.
And even this isn't just, evenclassroom teachers.
77% of principals are white.
(12:11):
89% of superintendents arewhite.
79% of school board members arewhite, and principals and
superintendents aredisproportionately white men.
There's like a whole bunch ofgendered stuff going on.
And this is bad for so, so manyreasons.
We have tons of research showingjust the internalized bias that
so many of these educators.
(12:32):
Are likely to have and notinterrogate.
And so there are ways that itplays out in terms of
mistreatment of students notcatching examples of harmful
curriculum.
You know, perpetuating thatthere's a lack of
representation, which is notgood for the kids in the
classroom.
But then even if you lift up,it's also just bad because.
(12:54):
Working in education is a fairlystable middle class professional
option, lower middle classprofessional option, and so
that's just not, it'sincreasingly less.
Accessible to families of color.
So there's even like an economickind of like work angle to this
(13:14):
too.
But we just know that it's not,and it's not to say that a
43-year-old white woman, cough,cough, wink, wink, couldn't be
an amazing educator to.
All kinds of kids, right?
Like that's of course possible.
But the work that that requiresand the preparation and training
and like unlearning that, thatrequires is so intense and
(13:37):
incredible.
And I've worked in many teachereducation programs and like the
best ones I've worked in arebarely doing that, you know?
Mandy (13:46):
Oh.
And it has to be reallyintentional, I
katy (13:49):
Yes.
Mandy (13:50):
in order for it to actually be successful.
and I think that's the partabout it that.
Always gets lost is that you canthink I would never do, I would
never treat a student Of colordifferently.
katy (14:02):
course, right?
Mandy (14:04):
history or under represent things intentionally.
But unless you actually look atwhat you're doing and what's
happening based on data, thenthat is just what happens
because that's how the system'sset up.
katy (14:18):
Mm-hmm.
Yes, exactly.
And we're gonna talk about thesystem, why it was set that way,
how it is set up.
So Leonardo and Boaz talk about,and this is again kind of like
a, a good summary of our podcastfrom enslavement to colonialism.
White women have done the workof white supremacy specific to
their own place in thehierarchy, producing their own
contradictions in the process.
(14:38):
And they talk about how theyare.
So often relegated to social andbiological reproductive roles,
which is why teaching as anextension of motherhood, because
it's caring for children, it'strying to shape children and the
future generations, it is suchan extension of motherhood.
And as the profession ofteaching became feminized, that
(15:02):
connection of like mother andteacher has just become really,
really tight.
They do say, and this is, I likethis because you always are
asking people like, what can wedo?
So what does that mean?
And the chapter ends with reallyspecific action steps.
And I think what we're gonnawork on today and in the next
(15:23):
several episodes is what theyare recommending we do.
And really, this is also theheart of our podcast.
One critically reflect onracialized and gendered
histories and how you areimplicated in them.
Boom.
Two, make race and race historypart of the curriculum and fight
for its maintenance within thecurriculum.
Yes.
Three, teach race as astructural and systemic
(15:45):
construct with materialdifferential outcomes that are
institutionally embedded, notreducible to identities.
Great.
And four, work to understand andteach race not as a personal
crusade.
That is a socio historicalconstruct through which we are
all unequally produced.
Great.
Mandy (16:00):
Yeah,
katy (16:00):
Okay, so get into your time machine.
This is just as you laid out thejoys of the healthcare system.
This is a crash course in thehistory of public schools, and I
want to take a little bit oftime to do this because my plan
is to work us through.
Different historical moments andphases and feature some of the
(16:23):
white women at these phases.
And so it's really useful tohave this context and I think
it's going to shock people justhow recent some of what we take
for granted with public schoolsis that it's actually pretty
new, this idea.
So, okay.
Early Republic, the UnitedStates like Revolutionary War
(16:45):
time.
Late 18th century.
Okay.
This is literally one of theterms in, in one of the articles
I read was hodgepodge and thatis what it was, that there was
no system of schooling.
That it's like real scattered, Idon't know, scattershot.
So you've got some churches thathave schools, you have some
(17:06):
local communities who've pitchedin for kind of like a proto
public school.
You've got traveling.
Tutors for wealthier people.
You've got charity schools thatI'm picturing, like orphanages,
I don't know.
You know, just places that aretrying to keep kids informed or
not even informed, honestly,just contained in some way.
(17:28):
They're we're elite boardingschools pretty early on for
fancy pants.
There were some like homeschoolkinds of things.
Some apprenticeship.
Work things going on.
Just a real mess.
Mandy (17:41):
over the
katy (17:42):
So.
Mandy (17:43):
sort of like colonialistic, like schools for
indigenous populations they'retrying to assimilate.
Maybe
katy (17:51):
we'll get to boarding schools.
Oh, for, we're gonna have awhole lot to say about genocidal
boarding schools for sure.
Mandy (17:57):
Yeah.
katy (17:58):
there, there were some free schools, like what we would
maybe think of as like a publicschool in the northeast and even
a few free schools for AfricanAmerican children, but very,
very limited and not in asystematic way.
Okay.
So.
The revolution's happening.
We have this like democraticfederal republic form of
government that's beingimplemented and the original
(18:23):
kind of.
Conversations around what needsto happen is really looking at
what, what is needed in thatkind of government.
And this is actually a questionthat I ask a lot in workshops
that I facilitate, is we live ina pluralistic, diverse
democratic society or a societyattempting.
Some measure of democracy thathas really deep inequities.
(18:46):
And so what does that require?
What skills, what knowledge,what values?
It's a prompt that I present alot to people, and there's
always been a whole bunch ofways to answer that question.
So if I were to ask you like,what are the skills, knowledge,
and values that you think.
Are necessary for people livingin that kind of like a, even if
(19:11):
we just say democratic society,like really simple, what are,
what would you say are theknowledge, skills, and values
needed?
Mandy (19:18):
Knowledge, skills and values.
And I would say like I think ofsocial programs, like start off
with, what is it?
What does being in a societyoffer someone?
Like why would you be in asociety and want to come
together?
a group of people rather than,you know, homesteading or being
off on your own.
What are the
katy (19:36):
Hmm.
Mandy (19:36):
to that?
And then that's I think where Istart thinking about then what
do you need to set that kind ofthing up so you know, your
katy (19:46):
Hmm.
Mandy (19:46):
basic safety things like road sanitation.
Whatever other kind, you know,you're just rudimentary like
responder kinds of things, andthen getting into sort of like
healthcare, education,
katy (20:02):
Hmm,
Mandy (20:02):
defense, you know?
I
katy (20:04):
so, that's such an interesting answer.
An understanding of the commongood and why you should give a
shit, basically.
Yeah, I think that's reallyimportant.
A lot of times when I ask thatquestion, people will talk about
being informed, you know, sobeing able to read about or
learn about issues of the day,to care about accuracy of
(20:28):
information, to be able todiscuss things with people who
disagree with you.
Like if you think about the corefunction of a citizen as voting,
which is not obviously the onlyfunction of a citizen, but you
think, okay, what does someoneneed to be a good voter?
Like ideally.
Being informed, you know, caringabout other people, like there's
some basic things.
(20:48):
So that's all part of theconversation early on.
But there's also like characterand virtue and that that's right
away, that's not, there's neverconsensus about what the virtues
should be.
Right?
You know, maybe there's someoverlap with people, but.
That's, that's tricky.
(21:09):
But this, these are like theearly things, like to care about
each other.
What are the political andsocial issues?
What does it mean to be a wisevoter?
Selecting representatives tounderstand the rights and
freedoms they have to resistdemagoguery, ideally, you know,
not that that would ever happen.
But there, there's just a, likea whole mess of things.
(21:31):
Of course, at this time.
Keep in mind that.
Almost everywhere.
It was just white propertyowning men who could vote, who
had full citizenship.
So already, if we're thinkingabout some kind of public
education, having like a civicmission that already is not
(21:51):
evenly applied to everyonebecause not everybody has the
same access to citizenship who'sliving in this community, right.
So right off the bat, there wasalso an understanding of what
that meant for girls.
Oh, because girls are going tobecome mothers.
We need them to care about thesethings too, so that they're
(22:12):
raising children who can be goodcitizens, basically.
Mandy (22:17):
Boy, children to
katy (22:18):
Boy, the boy children, right?
And then girls to be futuremothers.
Mandy (22:21):
Yeah.
katy (22:22):
And again, we're talking just about like white girls in
that.
So there's all even if you'rethinking just civics and you're
not, of course there's otherthings like, oh, you want people
to be able to get a job and youknow, capitalist reasons, like
there's a whole bunch of stuff.
But that's how it gets kind ofset up is that girls should also
be educated because they aregoing to be mothers who.
(22:44):
We need to educate virtuouspeople, right?
Yep.
Of course, this is like ignoringenslavement and public schools
even early on.
So this, we're talking like1780s, the federal government,
early, early US federalgovernment starts giving a whole
bunch of land that they have.
(23:06):
Stolen from native people to newstates as they enter the union
with the agreement that thosenew states set aside a portion
of those lands to support publicschools, including public
universities.
So if you've heard of a landgrant university, that these are
land grants, that's that's whatit is.
So it was totally dependent oncolonial settler colonialism.
(23:28):
The land theft and that some ofthat land would then be reserved
for building communities aroundschools.
So there's also this like darkconnection to the creation of
public schools to land theftand.
Yeah, that genocide.
So there's that.
Yeah, of course.
Then you have like early 18hundreds.
(23:50):
The industrial revolution isreally, really picking up.
You have at up until this point,the schools that did exist, most
of the teachers were men.
But as the Industrial Revolutionpicks up, this is when the, the
profession starts changing.
Not that women weren't also partof the industrial revolution or
working in factories orwhatever, but as, as the
(24:11):
industrial Revolution combinedwith capitalism is opening up
economic opportunities,especially for white men, white
women become like teaching is away for them to have some sort
of honorable professional workthat is.
Seems to be appropriate for thembecause it involves children.
So the profession getsfeminized, and this is like
(24:34):
rabbit hole.
We could go down for anotherday.
I'm fascinated by this.
It's still, there's modernresearch being done about this
for college attendance fordifferent professions.
It's called the tipping pointtheory, that when enough women
are in a space that men evacuateit.
Completely.
So it's like a few women arefine, but then once there's more
(24:56):
women, it suddenly becomes likea girl job and then gone.
The boys are gone.
Right.
So with this is re modernresearch shows white collar jobs
tip for when it's 25 to 45%women, then men start leaving
that field, and blue collar jobsis lower.
It's 13 to 30%.
(25:17):
Women in a position, then menstart leaving that field.
It's not wild.
So
Mandy (25:22):
Yeah,
katy (25:22):
you get, you, all you need are like a quarter of the
teachers to be women.
For men to be like, Ew, girls,do this job.
I'm out.
Mandy (25:31):
it just
katy (25:31):
So then
Mandy (25:31):
that whole like thing about where do men actually even
like women
katy (25:35):
I dunno.
I dunno.
It's so weird.
I don't understand.
I don't understand.
I.
Mandy (25:41):
at least they're not socialized to actually like
women.
'cause everything that they'retaught is to be like, Ooh, girls
katy (25:48):
It's so, it's wild.
I, I am raising a son.
I think about this all the time.
Mandy (25:53):
All the
katy (25:53):
And of course, as professions, feminize salaries
decline for the exact same work,right?
That's like it over and over andover and over and over, and over
and over.
It happens.
And in teaching, it's one of thefirst professions that we see
this happen.
Mandy (26:04):
Yeah.
katy (26:05):
you do have men then shifting to like leadership
roles in public education.
But that's it.
Okay, so now it's feminizing.
1830s Horace Mann, maybe a namepeople are familiar with, is
this legislator in Massachusettswho is into the idea of public
schools and that they should be,quote, universally available to
(26:25):
all children free of charge andfunded by the state.
But of course, universal is, hasa gigantic asterisk because it's
1830.
So let's be real.
Okay.
So he starts arguing for thisidea of common schools and that
everybody will benefit.
And I actually am very, I saythings like this all the time in
(26:46):
different jobs that I have iseveryone benefits from strong
public schools.
It doesn't matter if you haveyour own kids.
Mandy (26:52):
of course.
katy (26:53):
everyone benefits, right?
And I, I do believe in a deeplycivic, broadly defined mission
of schools, more than a careermission, more than a college
readiness mission like theCivic.
Just being like a decentcommunity member is who gives a
shit about other people.
That's a core, to me, that's themost important thing.
(27:13):
Other people would say otherthings, but.
They're wrong.
Okay.
So, but they, so this idea thatman had is that we'll have
reading, writing, arithmetic,we'll have some social studies,
some rhetoric, and like somephilosophy.
We'll have moral instruction.
We'll, we'll, poor kids, middleclass kids, and, and especially
we want rich kids to also bepart of public schools because
(27:35):
the point is to have this mix.
But of course it's not like thefull mix.
Because there's massivesegregation.
Mandy (27:42):
Yep.
katy (27:43):
But even his argument was still considered like some kind
of reform.
Right.
And of course, even his, likethis version of things still
kicks up massive resistance.
I'm sure you are shocked.
So he's arguing against.
Private schools and wanting tomake sure that everybody is
(28:04):
there, right?
And so of course you have snootysnoots who don't.
They think of it as like the ta,and we still hear this today,
that they're thinking abouttaxes that are going towards
common schools as being akin totuition.
So they're like, why would I payfor somebody else's kid to go to
school?
It's so shortsighted andselfish.
(28:26):
I am editorializing again.
I'm right.
So that's fine.
And it's infuriating, but thisis right off the bat, right?
Mandy (28:33):
yep.
katy (28:34):
you've got people who.
Mandy (28:36):
are fine.
Where we literally pay tosubsidize rich people sending
their
katy (28:41):
Yeah.
Mandy (28:41):
to
katy (28:41):
Right, right.
Mandy (28:42):
That's
katy (28:43):
Yes, yes, of course.
Yes.
Okay.
So this is one of those classicmoments in history where you
have the baddy bads, but thenyou have the people who are
arguing for something that maybefeels better, but they're still,
it's still complicated becauseof course, the people arguing
for common schools still don't.
They're not arguing fordesegregated schools or like for
(29:04):
every kid to go to school, andthey're, they're also seeing it
as a way to eliminate poverty,crime, social problems.
And it sure there's an elementof that, but it's capitalism is
why there's poverty.
You know, there's other thingsgoing on that you can't put on
schools, which is still aproblem.
There's just so much oh,schools, schools will be the
(29:24):
answer to everything when it's,it's a part of the equation, but
not the full equation.
Some early leaders, this comesfrom a department of Ed, history
of public schools, argued thatthe costs of properly educating
children in public schools wouldbe far less than the expenses of
punishing a jail and criminalsand coping with problems
stemming from poverty.
It's just, it's, you still hearthat rhetoric today, which is
basically blaming the individualperson instead of being able to
(29:47):
understand these systems andstructures.
But this, all this rhetoric isvery, very, very old.
So horseman succeeds, commonschools get started and people
in the community come together.
School boards get formed and it.
Actually a lot in most placesbecomes this hub of the
community.
Like the school is the heart ofthese communities, especially in
(30:08):
small rural communities forsure.
But of course it's, there'smassive exclusion, massive
segregation race and ethnicity.
I think we've been very clearabout that in many other
episodes for all different kidsof color, all different,
ethnicities and the boardingschools, we will absolutely
dedicate a lot of time to that.
(30:29):
Just that, because that in andof itself, white women, wow.
There is like a gross, gross,gross, gross history there.
There's also gender segregation.
And even when schools are co-ed,often girls get different
curriculum than the boys do,like girl curriculum, you know,
or they can't do these thingsbecause if they do that, then
their ovaries will shrink, youknow, they won't be able to have
(30:52):
babies.
Um, there's all sorts of itconcerns for students with
disabilities and they're notserved at all or really
mistreated language issues.
Religious bias.
This is actually where Catholicschools boom, is that Catholic
kids were discriminated againstbecause so many of these, the
common schools, the publicschools are deeply embedded in
(31:14):
Protestant Christianity.
Like the early readers like.
McGuffey readers, we're actuallygonna do a special episode just
on McGuffey and how bullshitthey are.
So there it's just all superwhite Protestant Christians.
So Catholics are like, fuckthis, we're gonna do our own
schools.
Okay.
So through the 19th century,public schools are growing,
growing, growing.
There more and more states are.
(31:38):
Taking charge of, of publiceducation and putting it into
their state constitutions.
It's not a federal thing.
There are federal initiatives,but it's actually the state's
responsibilities.
So here's where I'm gonna haveyou guess some stats.
Are you ready?
Okay.
Get ready.
1830.
How many kids in the us whatpercentage of children.
(32:01):
By children, I mean five to 14,like K eight were enrolled.
What percentage in 1830?
Mandy (32:07):
I'm just gonna go with 30%,
katy (32:09):
Ooh, 55.
Higher than I would've guessedtoo.
1870.
So 40 years later, what do youthink the percentage is?
Mandy (32:18):
Maybe 75%.
katy (32:21):
Ooh, 78.
If I had a prize to give you, Iwould give it to you.
Okay, then let's think abouthigh school.
Things start out at theelementary level.
In 1910, how many Americans hadcompleted high school?
How many US adults had completedhigh school?
Mandy (32:39):
because high school?
was not considered likesomething necessary.
It was like
katy (32:43):
You're right.
Mandy (32:44):
so maybe like 16%.
katy (32:47):
Oh my God, you were so good at this.
14, 14%.
This is my grandpa.
That's, yeah, for sure.
And then in 1970, how many USadults had completed high
school?
Mandy (33:01):
I would put it more at 60%.
katy (33:03):
Holy, you should today go buy every lottery ticket you can
find.
It's 55%
Mandy (33:11):
tonight.
Get
katy (33:12):
Vegas, baby.
It's why you live there.
I know.
Don't, don't lie.
And then in 2017, it's 90%.
So in a hundred years it wentfrom 14%.
High school graduation rates to90% high.
Like that's pretty astonishing.
So we take, I think we just takeit so for granted that this is
(33:32):
just.
Like the system and how itworks, but it's really recent.
Mandy (33:35):
Yeah.
katy (33:36):
the forties as World War II's happening, teacher
education is becoming morestandardized.
Teacher unions are becomingstronger, so they're requiring
professional accreditation.
Okay, so this is where the whiteWomanness just gets even more
entrenched because mostaccredited teacher ed programs
were at universities that didnot allow.
(33:57):
Students of color to attend.
So if you now have requirementsthat in order to be a teacher
you had to go to an accreditedprogram, but that accredited
program does not let you in.
Good luck becoming a teacher.
Right.
So that is a problem.
A lot of teachers unions wouldnot allow members of color.
So that's a problem.
(34:18):
And then we've talked about thisa little bit before.
1954 is Brown v Board ofEducation Court case, and this
is when tens of thousands ofblack educators who were
teaching in the segregatedschools cannot get jobs anymore.
They are fired, laid off bydistricts because the white
superintendents do not believethat they can teach or should
(34:40):
teach white children.
So before Brown View Board ofEducation, but that before that
court case of all educators inthe country, about 35 to 40%
were black teachers.
After Brown View Board, itdropped to 7% and it still
hasn't recovered, which is justshocking.
So who fills that void?
(35:01):
White women.
Yeah, it's still, it's stilljust super low.
So it's the history of this andunderstanding why is so
important.
And I can tell you as someonewho has worked with pre-service
teachers, so manywell-intentioned white women,
like so many, and they trulybelieve like.
(35:22):
When you don't know any of thishistory and you don't know this
context, it's so easy to believethat I wanna be a teacher
because I love kids,
Mandy (35:29):
Mm-hmm.
katy (35:30):
I'm passionate about education.
It's well, kind of, but you alsowanna be a teacher because you
are being brought up in thisdeeply racist.
Class gendered society that isfunneling you this way.
That's also a massive part of itand giving you opportunities
that other people haven't hadthat it's not a coincidence.
If you look around and everybodyelse is a white woman, you
(35:52):
shouldn't be like, I bet it'sjust innate.
I bet we all just love childrenmore than anybody.
Like what the fuck?
That cannot be the reason.
Mandy (35:59):
No.
Yeah.
katy (36:01):
So what's up?
Mandy (36:02):
Yeah.
katy (36:02):
I would love the, oh my God.
Wouldn't it be amazing if I,like when I was a professor, if
I had opened a class and one ofmy students was like, why are we
all white women?
That would be.
I, I would just say like a plus
Mandy (36:14):
for the
katy (36:15):
pass.
Mandy (36:15):
the semester.
katy (36:16):
You can just start teaching.
Like it's, it would be amazingto just have someone notice it
and vocalize it and wonder aboutit, because that is a huge part
of the problem is that it's noteven something people are
curious about.
Or maybe they kind of notice it,but then they don't, they bury
it or dismiss it or what, youknow, it's look around.
(36:37):
When you are in a place and it'sall other people, think about
the reason why that might bebecause it's never just a
coincidence.
Come on.
Mandy (36:44):
Yeah.
katy (36:45):
Okay?
Mandy (36:45):
same could definitely be said in medicine, like
katy (36:48):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (36:49):
and you know that, I mean, I, I get called a nurse
every single shift that I work,and it's not like any disrespect
to nursing'cause they have avery hard
katy (37:00):
No, sure
Mandy (37:01):
And they, it's like fantastic.
katy (37:03):
Mom.
Mandy (37:03):
That there are people who wanna do it, but
katy (37:06):
Right
Mandy (37:07):
just no, I'm, I'm not a nurse.
Just because I'm a female
katy (37:11):
Mom.
Mandy (37:11):
room in a healthcare setting doesn't
katy (37:13):
I know.
No, for sure.
Mandy (37:15):
Yeah.
katy (37:15):
Well, last couple things in this timeline to just set the
stage.
So 1965 is when the Elementaryand Secondary Education Act
passes and the individuals withDisabilities Act, and this is
the first time that legislation.
Is laid out at a federal levelthat is unequivocally committed
(37:36):
to what we would say isuniversal education.
Like for the first time in amore real substantial way, it's
talking about children inpoverty.
It's talking about children ofcolor, children who are learning
English as a second language,children with disabilities,
girls like.
And this is why this legislationis also under attack right now,
but 1965 is not that long ago.
(37:58):
So just I mentioned this before,but the Constitution, the US
Constitution does not mentioneducation.
Right.
And, and that being said, thereis federal, like the ESEA, the
IDA, those are federal.
Pieces of legislation.
The Department of Education islike a, well, it was, I don't
know where it stands right now,but there are federal like
(38:18):
interventions, but it's reallythe states that make all sorts
of decisions, like the schoolcalendar, the standards, testing
requirements, graduationrequirements, teacher licensure,
like all of that is at the statelevel.
And then funding, um, most, soabout half of school funding
comes from the state.
A little less than half comesfrom local.
(38:39):
Taxes, like property taxestypically.
And then this tiny, like singledigit percent, like seven 8%
comes from federal monies.
So it's one of those thingswhere if the federal money, if
they say they're not going togive it to you for some reason,
it's hard to.
Lose that percentage, eventhough it's relatively small,
it, most schools still can't saylike, yeah, take 8% of my
(39:02):
budget.
I'm gonna ignore yourstipulations.
Which right now is scary becausethe stipulations are bonkers,
which I made into a fivesyllable board.
Yes.
So what we're going to look atmoving forward is we're gonna
dig in first to pre 20thcentury, like 18th, 19th
century.
This, all of this diggingdeeper.
(39:22):
The next time we're gonna talkabout this woman, Catherine
Beecher.
So get ready for that.
And then we're gonna take a abunch of time to talk about
boarding schools for indigenouschildren because that is
Mandy (39:34):
Yeah, there's a lot of
katy (39:35):
horrific.
Mandy (39:37):
women shit going down there.
katy (39:39):
Oh my God.
And it's act.
It's just not something in theUS that there's nearly enough
awareness about.
I think Canada has done a waybetter job, but wow.
Holy shit.
And then we're gonna pivot tolook at the 20th century and
21st century.
And honestly, both of thesewhite women are pitched as save
your mother figures.
Who are using their work asteachers and in this like
(40:00):
weaponized motherhood, whitewomanness kind of way.
Um, but there are somedifferences that I think are
really interesting.
And when we get into the 20th,21st century, there are a few
white women that I cannot waitto talk about, and that includes
Wendy Copp, who founded Teachfor America, Aaron Gruel, who is
the, ooh, the, an Englishteacher, gosh, I, now I'm
(40:24):
blanking, but we're, she'sfamous for being like a savior
sort of teacher.
And Luanne Johnson, who's thedangerous minds real life
person.
There's so many examples, but Ithink especially in popular
culture, the white woman.
Saves students of color trope.
(40:45):
We're gonna really unpack anddig into that when we get to the
21st century.
So put on your
Mandy (40:52):
up.
katy (40:53):
belts,
Mandy (40:54):
Here
katy (40:54):
we're going to, we're gonna dive into Catherine
Beecher.
If anybody wants to poke arounda little bit before then,
Mandy (41:00):
Okay.
Sounds
katy (41:01):
good to see you.
Mandy (41:03):
Yes.
Okay.
I am
katy (41:04):
All right.
Mandy (41:05):
for this.
Well, excited.
You know, whatever.
to know what words we shoulduse.
katy (41:10):
We are eager to learn more.
Mandy (41:13):
Yep.
katy (41:14):
Yes.
Alright,
Mandy (41:15):
it next time.
bye.
everybody.
katy (41:17):
bye.
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