October 31, 2025 • 50 mins
How does a voter mandate become a wolf reintroduction program?
In this episode, Katie and Ed sat down with Brenna Cassidy and Eric Odell of Colorado Parks and Wildlife (CPW) to unpack the Colorado gray wolf (Canis lupus) reintroduction program.
The conversation explores ecological and behavioral questions surrounding gray wolf reintroduction. Can wolves trigger trophic cascades and change rivers? How are ungulate populations, such as elk (Cervus canadensis) and mule deer (Odocoileus hemionus), altering their behavior? Are predator dynamics shifting as wolves reestablish their range?
Odell and Cassidy share their tips for navigating contentious topics with stakeholders, and they reveal what CPW is doing to mitigate wolf conflict.
The conversation also gives wisdom for aspiring biologists: say yes to varied work, build long‑term relationships, and listen first.
Learn more:
Colorado Parks and Wildlife: https://cpw.state.co.us/
Colorado Wolf Restoration and Management Plan: https://cpw.widencollective.com/assets/share/asset/wixcpz0wez
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:02):
So wolves are back in Colorado, but the story isn't
so simple.
In this episode of Our WildLives, we sit down with Dr.
Brennan Cassidy, Wolf Monitoringand Data Coordinator, and Eric
Odell, Wolf Conservation ProgramManager at the Colorado Parks
and Wildlife Department.
Together, they unpack thecomplex journey of wolf
(00:22):
reintroduction in Colorado, fromhistorical extirpation to
today's restoration efforts.
We talk about the role of publicopinion and legislation in
shaping wildlife policy and diveinto the realities of wolf
livestock conflicts, managementstrategies, and the values and
science that guide it all.
You'll also hear behind thescenes stories from the field
(00:43):
and some of the key things to dowhen navigating conflict and
conservation.
SPEAKER_02 (01:11):
And I met Arnett, a co-host of the Our Wild Lives
Podcast.
It's great to have you guys andreally look forward to our
conversation.
SPEAKER_01 (01:19):
Can you give us a brief overview of wolves in
Colorado?
SPEAKER_03 (01:23):
Yeah, so the story of wolves in Colorado is
certainly a long one and aninteresting one for sure.
But to put it kind of briefly,historically wolves were
everywhere in Colorado.
They covered east to west, northto south.
Every county had wolveshistorically.
And through all of the predatorcontrol work that was done in
the early 1900s, the wolves wereultimately extirpated.
No more wolves were in thestate.
The last time we had wolves wasin the 1940s or so.
(01:45):
There was reintroductions thathappened outside of the state in
Yellowstone in central Idaho inthe mid-90s.
And Colorado maintained no wolfpopulations, no known wolves
quite a while until thosepopulations in the northern
Rockies really started to kindof take off, do well there.
And so after thosereintroductions in the 1990s, we
started to see individual wolvescoming down into the state from
(02:08):
time to time.
None of them lasted very long inthe state.
Some of them were monitored,collared, and some were not.
Some we found out about onlybecause they were hit on roads
and killed on I-70, right?
So all of these things werehappening in the larger lower 48
parts of the country.
And so at that time, wolves weremanaged by the Fish and Wildlife
(02:28):
Service.
They're federally listed.
And so there were these thingscalled the distinct population
segments, these differentgeographic areas where wolves
were managed.
And each DPS distinct populationsegment was managed differently.
In Colorado, I-70 is the majorinterstate east-west.
And to the north of I-70 was oneDPS, and to the south was
another DPS.
(02:48):
And so there was some exexpectation that there might be
a delisting of wolves in thatnorthern DPS.
And so at that time, we theColorado Division of Wildlife at
the time convened a workinggroup that was going to describe
how wolves would be managed inthe state as they migrated into
the state.
There was no reintroductiondiscussion about it.
But it's, you know, when ifwolves are delisted and
management authority then comesback to the state, how does this
(03:11):
how are we going to deal withthis as wolves naturally
continue this migration andultimately potential
establishment in the state?
And so this group put theserecommendations together for how
wolves will be managed.
That was finalized, approved in2004.
We never really had a populationof wolves become established in
the state.
And then the the whole DPS issuebecame a non-issue and wolves
(03:32):
were then listed throughout thecountry, with the exception of
Mexican wolves and red wolves.
That doesn't really pertain toColorado.
So all of this time is going on,and there's these ways that
wolves could be managed.
And we're seeing some naturalmigration, but not a whole lot
of it.
So then a group put together apetition in beginning in 2019,
(03:52):
starting to collect signatures.
In Colorado, you can do that.
You can collect signatures on apetition to get an issue put on
the statewide ballot.
And so that started the summerof 2019.
That was not a Colorado Parksand Wildlife led effort.
It was outside, that wascitizen-driven.
And ultimately they got enoughsignatures on their petitions to
put it on the ballot in Novemberof 2020.
(04:12):
And it passed.
And that created state law.
And that really directed ourwhole efforts from that point
forward to develop a wolf planto develop protocols for how
we're going to reintroducewolves, how we're going to
manage wolves, how we're goingto compensate for livestock
losses and things like that.
So there's a long story to it.
That's kind of the nutshell ofhow we got to where we are.
SPEAKER_02 (04:35):
That's interesting.
Colorado having lived in Oregon,you were taking a similar path
of Oregon.
Colorado was and develop inplanning for their immigration
into the state, basically.
But then the proposition for 114came along.
So how did the public opinioninfluence that?
I mean, it seems to me like thepublic was being informed on
(05:01):
wolf reintroduction.
They were being formed onecological benefits.
Parks and wildlife reallycouldn't lobby against it,
right?
There were a number of NGOs thatwere against this, of course, in
the ranching community andothers, but that public opinion
was swayed a little bit in favorof the reintroduction, of
course.
SPEAKER_03 (05:18):
It was a really interesting time because as a
state agency, when there is anissue on a statewide ballot,
we're just simply prohibitedfrom taking positions.
And so CPW, Collar Parks andWildlife, really didn't, we
certainly didn't take a positionon the proposition.
It was 114, or really put domuch in advocating one way or
the other for or against wolfreintroduction.
We just simply couldn't say muchabout that just based on state
(05:39):
law.
And so a lot of that was withthe way public opinion was
formed on that was the generaladvertising.
And there was a lot ofadvertising both sides for and
against wolf reintroduction.
We saw billboards all around thestate on highways, you know,
with all kinds of imagery thatyou might imagine if either
wolves are great or wolves areterrible.
And so that the, you know, Ithink that that's one of the key
takeaways from wolf management.
(06:00):
And as a wildlife agents, we doall kinds of restoration of all
different kinds of species.
For wolves, it's not thatdifferent biologically from all
the other aspects that we'vedone links reintroduction,
black-footed ferrets, all theseother things.
But socially and politically,it's a totally different issue.
And so that public opiniondrives a lot of in the way wolf
restoration happened and now howwolf management's happening.
SPEAKER_02 (06:22):
There's like a social carrying capacity
relative to the habitat carryingcapacity.
We as biologists all know whathabitat carrying capacity looks
like, but that social carryingcapacity is really critical in
all of this because there is athreshold that is well below the
habitat carrying capacity interms of how many wolves will be
(06:43):
socially accepted in the state.
SPEAKER_03 (06:45):
I think, yeah, I think you're absolutely right.
I mean, Colorado is perfectlysuited in a lot of ways for
wolves.
We've got huge ungulatepopulations, we've got lots of
public lands, we've got lots ofgood areas from a very general
biological perspective of whatmakes good wolf habitat, habitat
generalists.
So there's nothing particularlyspecific that they need.
But you're right, the socialcarrying capacity is very much
(07:06):
lower than whatever they couldmaintain as a biologically
self-regulating.
SPEAKER_02 (07:11):
Well, that public opinion drove the proposition
114, but it's also driving somecurrent things that are
happening now legislatively andsuch.
So that it's starting to playout live here in Colorado on
that social acceptance.
SPEAKER_00 (07:23):
So during that whole time, too, I was not with
Colorado Parks and Wildlife.
I'm fairly new to the agency,but watching from a distance and
watching, you know, the summerleading up to that vote, having
a couple of these wolves thatnaturally immigrated into
Colorado who bred and had pups.
(07:46):
I was viewing it from a fardistance.
I was sitting in Montanawatching with fascination this
whole entire thing play out.
And there seemed to be like,here's this little taste of what
it's like living with wolves inone small area, one group of
wolves.
I'm continually fascinated howthat entire situation played out
(08:10):
with these naturally immigratingwolves breeding, while also this
ballot initiative was gainingsignatures and actually getting
on the ballot just a couplemonths later.
What kind of cosmic alignmentwas that that all happened at
the same time?
SPEAKER_02 (08:27):
Especially given the politics in the neighboring
state and the managementstrategies there.
If they step across the border,they're in serious jeopardy.
Yeah.
And protected on this side ofColorado.
SPEAKER_01 (08:37):
Right.
Brennan, I think this is a greatone for you because you were
telling us how you've workedwith a few different distinct
populations of wolves.
So what makes the Colorado wolfreintroduction different from
previous efforts in otherplaces?
SPEAKER_00 (08:49):
Yeah.
So there's a couple things thatwe can kind of point to right
away that we've identifiedalready.
You know, this was spurred byProposition 114 and was a vote,
and there's plenty of publicopinion there in previous
translocation efforts in thelower 48 at least, that was not
(09:09):
led by a vote, that was led by afederal agency or a state
agency.
So there's some majordifferences there.
Colorado is, you know, we'relooking at a statewide
perspective.
And when we look at somethinglike Yellowstone, that was, you
know, a much tighter area and itwas a national park.
Uh so the goals and the missionstatements of the National Park
(09:31):
Service and a state agency arefairly different.
So looking at the two differentperspectives there, I think is
really interesting.
On more of a biological level,one thing that I've noticed
living in Colorado just for ayear and a half or so, coming
from some history in Yellowstonein particular, is Colorado is a
(09:52):
dramatic landscape.
I mean, there are deserts, highalpine peaks, like there are so
many different ecotypes in thisstate that I'm absolutely
fascinated watching wolves movearound and go places that I not
necessarily am completelysurprised by, but it's pretty
(10:16):
incredible.
I mean, wolves above 13,000feet, wolves moving through
desert that I, you know, didn'tnecessarily think was amazing
wolf habitat.
And coming from somewhere likeYellowstone, which is a little
bit less dramatic, it's prettyfascinating looking at a couple
of those, those kind ofbiological differences.
(10:36):
And also, we're just a littlebit further away from these
bigger populations that in the80s and and into the early 90s
before wolf reintroduction incentral Idaho and Yellowstone,
wolves were recolonizingnorthwestern Montana.
And there was a huge debate ofwhether wolf reintroduction in
(10:56):
in those areas was necessary ornot.
You know, ultimately ithappened, but those populations
are all connected now.
And when we look at Colorado,we're looking at the future and
thinking, oh, are we going to beconnected or not?
And thinking about thoseconsiderations for our founding
population to make sure we havea big enough and diverse enough
(11:19):
founding population.
SPEAKER_01 (11:21):
And talking about watching where these wolves are
going, is that part of yourwork?
You've got callers on them andyou're reading through all this
data of where they're going.
Can you tell us about that?
SPEAKER_00 (11:29):
Yes.
Yeah.
So I am the monitoringcoordinator and data
coordinator.
So collecting all that data,watching where are wolves going,
are they forming packs?
You know, which ones aresurviving, which ones are dying,
which ones are pairing andreproducing.
So, you know, it's a prettyexciting time.
We're in early summer of 2025and we're starting to get pup
(11:54):
counts on the four dens thatwe're monitoring.
We also have had severalmortalities this spring, but you
know, as we know, those twothings are what balances a
population, includingimmigration and emigration as
well.
We just don't see as much ofthat in Colorado as, you know,
because we're not closelyconnected to another wolf
(12:18):
population.
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (12:19):
You know, the literature's kind of played up a
good bit of the science behindecological benefits of having
wolf populations, Yellowstonebeing the ultimate science
playground for that.
My understanding is some ofthat's maybe a little misleading
or can be misleading.
And maybe you could talk alittle bit about what the
(12:40):
expected benefits are.
I know what the what I've heardfrom, you know, folks that
supported Proposition 114, andI've read the literature, but
I've also read the literaturethat doesn't necessarily support
them being a keystone predator.
So let's talk through that justa little bit about what the
expectations are here, andespecially given the dynamics
(13:01):
that you see in this state thatyou've described, you know, we
have deserts, we have the highplains, we have uh mountains,
they're up at 13,000 feet.
You got all that to contendwith.
They're gonna have differentecological effects on different
systems.
SPEAKER_00 (13:14):
Absolutely.
Um wolves are often, I think,throughout history, these
larger-than-life animals.
I mean, whether we're talkingabout thinking about Little Red
Riding Hood or the fact that,you know, wolves are saving
rivers or changing rivers orsomething, they're often seen as
these just incrediblylarger-than-life species,
(13:39):
really.
So thinking about what we call atrophic cascade, thinking about
wolves being these keystonepredators that when they're in
or on a landscape, they're goingto change everything and that
affect cascades throughout theentire ecosystem.
There's been so much interestingresearch out of Yellowstone, out
(14:03):
of Banff National Park, out ofother places that is building
upon the question of are wolvescausing these trophy cascades?
Um, huge debates.
But when I look at thatresearch, and when I look at the
landscape in Yellowstone, Istarted there in 2009, just
finished my PhD up.
(14:23):
So saw a lot of change go onthrough throughout that
ecosystem.
And when I see it, I see areally heterogeneous landscape.
And I see areas that are beingaffected, you know, willow
riparian areas being affected bysomething.
And some of these areas arerecovering, and then they might
(14:46):
be grazed down the next year.
Yellowstone in particular is anincredibly complicated
ecosystem.
So teasing out what is an effectof wolves, what's an effect of a
different, you know, elkpopulation, bison population,
changing climate.
SPEAKER_02 (15:05):
Climate impacts, exactly.
SPEAKER_00 (15:08):
You know, Yellowstone just had a major
flood two or three years agothat completely changed several
of those rivers.
So, you know, when we're lookingat that, we can see changes.
It's tough to assign all ofthose changes to wolves, really.
So when I am looking at thelandscape in Colorado, you know,
(15:30):
we're outside of a nationalpark.
We, you know, we have nationalparks in the in the state, but
we're looking at a statewidelevel.
You know, I'm looking at it andI'm looking at all of the other
things that are affecting thelandscape of Colorado.
And, you know, like we've talkedabout before, there are so many
different areas.
But if we concentrate on wherethe debate is around riparian
(15:51):
areas, I'm looking in Coloradoand I'm seeing climate change
effects, places being developed,human impacts on those areas,
huge demands for water just tohave humans exist.
And I have a really hard timethinking about wolves completely
(16:12):
changing rivers in Colorado.
So that's not to say that wolvesdon't have an effect on their
ecosystems.
They absolutely do.
I think what what we're lookingat in Colorado for, you know,
whether we see a trophic cascadeor not, I think that's going to
be really hard to tease out withall the other things that are
going on here.
SPEAKER_03 (16:32):
Yeah, agree with that too.
I mean, we're outside ofnational parks.
I think when you take that pieceaway, and the other piece of it
is time and numbers, right?
I mean, we're two or three yearsinto wolf restoration with 20,
30 animals on the ground.
Decades or maybe even.
Yeah, it's a long, long, longtime away from that.
And the story about wolveschanging rivers is a very
romantic one and a verysimplified one.
(16:54):
And I think actually people do adisservice to the idea of wolf
restoration by trying to givewolves that much credit.
I think that there's a lot ofreasons to restore wolves other
than restoring ecosystems.
Wolves are a native species tothe state.
As a State Wildlife Agency,that's one of our primary goals
and primary pieces of ourmission is to restore wildlife,
not to not to portray a storythat may or may not actually be
(17:15):
true.
So I think that that's a reallyimportant piece.
SPEAKER_02 (17:17):
I agree.
I, you know, I went toYellowstone for the first time.
Well, it's 1975, but I don'tremember a damn thing other than
a bear crawling in the back ofmy grandpa's truck trying to get
our cooler.
Um I remember a lot more thanthat, but but I don't I don't
remember anything about elknumbers and that kind of thing.
I darn sure noticed it when Iwent in '83 when I was an
(17:40):
emerging wildlife uh student atMontana State.
And I can assure you the elkwere way overpopulated on the
winter ranges for sure, allaround Yellowstone.
So that was just an obviousobservation.
You didn't you didn't have to bea rocket scientist or have
scientists or have a whole lotof data to come to that
realization, just look at theground and range.
(18:02):
And obviously, not only reducingthe numbers, but redistributing
the animals across thelandscape, you're gonna see
those vegetative impacts.
But wolves are just one of manyagents of change, is kind of
what I heard.
Right.
Yes.
SPEAKER_03 (18:17):
And even in those the northern range of
Yellowstone, it's not justwolves that have changed those
exangular populations, right?
There are lots of other thingsthat are happening here.
SPEAKER_00 (18:24):
Trevor Burrus, Jr.
Yeah.
Major mountain lion recovery,grizzly bear recovery, and you
know, at the same time as wolfrestoration in that area, we had
differences in hunting pressureright outside the park on that
northern range elk herd, majordrought.
I think sometimes people forgetthe 88 fires than like that
(18:45):
whole story and in the elk storyin Yellowstone.
So I view wolf restoration kindof like Eric said, like there's
so many different reasons torestore a species, not just
wolves, that there's thescientific side, this very
technical side of what do wolvesdo in an ecosystem?
There's also a veryphilosophical side of what is
(19:07):
the value of rewilding?
What is the value of a speciesbeing on the landscape in that
intrinsic value?
SPEAKER_01 (19:54):
So you both have probably an ex experiences with
wolves that most of us willnever get to have.
So could you tell us a littlebit about what it's actually
like working with wolves out inthe field, you know, capturing
them, putting collars on them?
Tell us tell us some storiesabout that.
SPEAKER_03 (20:12):
Yeah, well, I guess I'll start with the first time I
came into contact with wolves,you know, as what Brennan
alluded to early on, as thewhole petition gathering is
happening, we're having wolvesnaturally migrate into the
state.
And so we had a black wolf thatcame in.
We got a photo of it turned intous by the public, and then we
following her, she had a collaron, talked with our colleagues
in Wyoming, got the informationthere, and then started as we're
(20:35):
monitoring her, noticed her withanother animal, a gray animal.
So it was in January, February21, 2021, that we captured that
animal and put a collar on them.
And that was the first time thatthe state agency, Colorado Parks
and Wildlife, had collared awolf.
And so leaving the helicopter,coming up to that animal and
just seeing it for the firsttime after it had been sedated
was a pretty amazing kind of athing.
(20:55):
And so it's the first timeyou're hands-on with an animal,
you're maneuvering it, measuringit, putting a collar on it,
making sure that health is goodand it turned out to be a male,
those two ended up breeding andhad the first litter of pups
that we had ever had.
And so that you know, as a firstexperience into wolves, that was
a pretty remarkable kind of athing to experience.
And of course, we've had lots ofother opportunities to be
(21:16):
hands-on.
A lot of wolf management is nothands-on, it's a lot of it is
monitoring from afar.
But because we're in the midstof this really active
restoration piece, there is alot of of wolf handling.
But that first experience waswas something I'll never forget.
SPEAKER_00 (21:29):
My first wolf job was I was a technician for a
master's student, Dr.
Matt Metz, in Yellowstone.
I was 19 years old.
I was a wildlife ecology majorwith University of
Wisconsin-Stevens Point.
And I thought, what a wildopportunity.
Like, I'm probably never gonnawork with wolves again.
(21:50):
So I might as well like reallyenjoy and learn everything I can
this summer.
And, you know, one of my one ofmy first days for that job was
we were generally searching GPSclusters.
So we weren't seeing wolves awhole lot, but we helped monitor
a couple dens and tried to getpup counts.
(22:12):
So we went out super early onemorning and we got to watch this
den from mile and a half, twomiles away.
And like that's kind of that'smy favorite stuff.
You know, scopes have improvedin the last 16 years, but just
watching wolves do wolf things,they don't have no idea we're
there a couple miles awaywatching.
(22:34):
So to be able to see that andthen be able to be part of this
capture and translocationeffort, you have a huge
responsibility to make sure thatwolf is well cared for and to
make sure that you give it thebest care possible.
So having a wolf in hand is it'syou know, it's pretty heavy,
(22:56):
like a heavy feeling to makesure that that wolf is able to
go out after you release it inthis brand new home to be able
to go do wolf things again.
So it's really nice to be ableto see the wolves that we
captured and translocated outthere, just doing what they
naturally do.
Um, did a flight the other day,saw a couple of the wolves that
(23:17):
we translocated this last yeartraveling around.
One male was bringing food backto a rendezvous site, big, big
belly, big belly full of food.
And it was really nice to justsee him, you know, doing wolf
things after we had handled himso recently.
SPEAKER_01 (23:33):
You say that you were there that summer and you
were never gonna deal withwolves again.
What happened?
What hooked you was going there?
SPEAKER_00 (23:41):
Yeah, 16 years later.
Um yeah, I mean, I I had thatjob and I was like, this was
absolutely incredible.
I ended up going back that nextsummer and worked for the
Yellowstone Bird Program.
Then things somehow worked out.
Um, graduated from with mybachelor's, moved out, worked
(24:01):
with Raptors in Yellowstone,worked with mountain lions in
Yellowstone, and then um kind ofgot in this cycle of working
with the bird program in thesummer and the wolf program in
the winter.
So the busy season for bothtaxa.
Worked with really incrediblepeople, got, you know, really
incredible experience doingthat.
Um yeah, I guess I got bit bythe bug a little bit.
SPEAKER_02 (24:25):
I think when you lock yourself into an idea that
I want to be this, you're gonnaget thrown a gyro ball or
something.
You know, it's just like, andyou go where the opportunity
lands.
You just do in our profession.
SPEAKER_03 (24:38):
Well, and that's kind of one of my takeaways
because I don't have a historyof having a whole lot of wolf
experience.
I've been involved with somewolf issues throughout my career
here at CPW, but I get askedthat a lot, like people that are
aspiring students that want tobecome a wildlife biologist,
that want to becomefundamentally a wolf biologist.
And I said, Well, my path wasnot that way at all.
I started out as anundergraduate.
My undergraduate thesis was onpollination ecology, watching
(24:59):
bumblebees and flowers and thatkind of stuff.
And so I think that to me, thatwas kind of one of my big
takeaways is don't say no.
Say yes to everything.
And any opportunity that comesyour way can turn out to be a
very interesting path.
SPEAKER_02 (25:10):
Trevor Burrus, Jr.
That's extraordinarily sageadvice because you know you
think about it being ageneralist versus a specialist,
and you know, the wolf is anultimate generalist, isn't it?
Trevor Burrus, it is.
I mean, they can live anywhereon about anything.
And so I think all biologiststhat enter into this profession,
if they think they're good-andsome do follow that linear path
(25:30):
for sure, entire career.
Trevor Burrus, Jr. (25:32):
Yeah, and the body of knowledge that
that's able to develop and isgreat.
I mean, we need people that thatare these specialists that do
that, but it's not necessarilybut you don't have to start as
your technician job and you knowfollow that all the way through
being a specialist.
SPEAKER_00 (25:46):
I didn't take kind of like a normal route that a
wildlife technician takes ofbeing in one place for six
months or a year and then goingto another species in another
location and and doing somethingelse.
I really was lucky enough to beimmersed in Yellowstone National
Park was just still wild to me.
(26:06):
But being able to see that evenone location through several
different species' eyes.
And that's a really unique.
Very unique, you know, beingable to see that landscape
through through the eyes ofmountain lions and then golden
eagles and look, actually, theyuse this landscape very
similarly.
Yeah.
(26:26):
And to look, you know, throughthe eyes of common loons and and
wolves was very, veryinteresting.
Um, so I yeah, definitely feltlucky to be able to do that.
And yeah, wolves being theultimate generalist, they're
also incredibly resilient.
So yeah, trying to have have alittle bit of a generalist
(26:47):
background while diving intowolf ecology and you know,
graduate school being wolfecology, but also having that
resiliency to to you know stickwith it or you know, do
something else else if that'sneeded.
SPEAKER_02 (27:01):
Yeah.
Let's dig in a little deeper onthe some of the kind of
ecological interactions here inColorado.
I realize it's early in thegame, um, but wolves got to eat
uh a lot.
And so they're alreadyinteracting with our ungulate
populations.
We'll get into interactions withlivestock and such later.
But um how are how are you whatare you seeing early on here
(27:24):
with their interactions with ourungulate populations?
But also is anyone kind oflooking at some of the effects
on the rest other predators inthe state?
How's that playing out?
SPEAKER_00 (27:35):
Yeah, I mean, yeah, starting with the other
carnivores in Colorado, when Ithink of some of the major ones,
I think of, you know, blackbears, mountain lions, coyotes.
So we have actually already seenone wolf killed by a mountain
lion.
It was our first one last April.
And to me, that's veryinteresting because I had never
(27:59):
seen that before.
And, you know, a lot of mygraduate work was on wolf-cause
specific mortality.
So having never seen it, it wasvery interesting because the
dynamics in Colorado right noware such that, you know, we have
some formed packs now, we havesome dens now.
But at that point, we had a lotof individual wolves wandering
(28:23):
around looking at the landscape.
They just got here.
So when I saw that, you know,and we reached out to some of
our counterparts in other statesto ask, hey, have you guys seen
this?
You know, Washington was anexample.
They had seen it several times.
SPEAKER_02 (28:37):
Uh lions killed wolves.
Exactly.
Definitely competitors.
SPEAKER_00 (28:41):
Yeah.
And it really comes down to Ithink these wolves not being in
groups, because one-on-one, Ithink a mountain lion's gonna
win every time.
SPEAKER_02 (28:51):
But when we get to I would have predicted that too,
right?
Not being a predator ecologist,but that would have been my
prediction.
It makes complete sense.
It does.
SPEAKER_00 (28:58):
Um, but then when we get into you know groups of
wolves that are three, four,five plus, then the equation
changes.
So when I'm out here looking at,okay, we have a lot of single
wolves wandering around.
There's a lot of mountain lionsin Colorado.
And they're vulnerable to that,that type of you know,
(29:18):
interspecific predation, really.
So that has been fascinating tolook at.
We don't have many examples ofblack bears interacting with
wolves at this point.
You know, we get black bears onon cameras that we've set out
for for wolves, and anecdotally,I've I've talked to some people
who have, you know, a wolfpresence in their area, and
(29:40):
they're noticing, oh, here wehave what seems like less
coyotes in this area.
And that's what we've seen playout in other areas.
You know, wolves and coyotes arecompetitors, and and wolves are
often gonna win that fight.
So, but then, you know, one stepfurther, do we see more foxes in
(30:01):
that area?
Because foxes and coyotes are.
SPEAKER_02 (30:07):
Exactly.
SPEAKER_00 (30:08):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So we have a couple of thoseinteractions that, you know,
some anecdotal, some we've seendirect mortality from for
wolves.
So yeah, we would like to seesome more packs of wolves for
multiple reasons, but one ofthem is to kind of navigate this
landscape that has a lot ofmountain lines on it.
SPEAKER_02 (30:27):
So what about our ungulate populations, Eric?
SPEAKER_03 (30:29):
What do you see in there?
So I mean, like I said, we'rewe're way early in into this,
and we don't have the numbers orthe time uh in here to see any
kind of effect.
They're certainly predating onungulates.
We've got all these individualanimals roaming around and not a
pack defending a territory andreally kind of establishing
themselves in a particular.
That's when we'll really startseeing it.
And that's when we may start tosee things that are, you know,
(30:51):
much more clear in terms of someimpacts, but or th those results
may not be quite as clear, too,because of all the different
effects on the landscape.
And so yeah, there's certainlyyou know, wolves are carnivores
that we certainly expect them toeat meat.
That's what wolves do.
But it's early to say how it'sgoing to affect our ungulate
populations in the state.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (31:09):
Yeah.
It's interesting.
We were watching a drainage thata den was in just a couple weeks
ago.
And I've seen this over andover.
You know, there were cow elk inthat drainage.
This was right before calving.
So they all still lookedpregnant to me.
Um, but the den was not even amile away.
(31:31):
Those wolves have been there forsix weeks, and yet there's still
elk using that drainage just asthey would before.
So it's yeah, the the effects uhof wolves on ungulates,
particularly elk, I look at aslike the numeric effect of how
many elk are wolves killing, andthat behavioral effect.
(31:53):
Are they moving to differentareas?
Are they avoiding riparianareas?
And you know, we've seenresearch out of Utah State and
Yellowstone that is that showedelk might change their patterns
of going into those riskierareas, those willow areas for a
couple hours a day.
(32:15):
But in general, they're notcompletely avoiding those areas,
which kind of ties back to ourtrophic cascades question and
and gets back in there.
So it is it is fascinating tome, you know, having watched
wolf dens over the years andwatched elk use those areas,
even though they're they knowwolves are there.
(32:36):
Like I've seen them pick uptheir head and and look at a
wolf walking across, you know, asage hillside.
Like you know that there's a denthere, but some for some reason
you're okay with it.
So they have some sort ofcommunication we just can't
possibly understand.
unknown (32:53):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (32:53):
I talked to the hunting community a good bit.
And of course, there's obviousconcern about competition for
sure, you know, big bull elk anddeer and that kind of thing.
But an interesting angle onthis, I was talking with an
outfitter last year, and herconcern was the fact that if the
elk redistribute because of apack of wolves, I'm out of
(33:16):
business.
Outfitters get a permit for avery specific location in the
landscape here in well, anywhereprobably in all states.
But here in Colorado, that's howit works, right?
You get a permit for an area,and if a pack happens to have
that behavioral influence on aherd, uh the elk redistribute to
private land, for example, wherethey may feel safer.
(33:38):
Um it's just an interestingangle.
It's not just the killing of thenumbers of elk, but it can be
the redistribution that orthere's a concern to the hunting
community.
SPEAKER_03 (33:48):
Trevor Burrus, Jr.
It may push them out of areas,it may push them into areas.
It could push them in.
It could be opportunistic and bebeneficial too.
Yep.
SPEAKER_02 (33:54):
So a lot of speculation with not a lot of
not a lot of things manifestingjust yet.
SPEAKER_03 (34:00):
We've got and and that's part of it too, is that
we've got a really good programto monitor wolves and to see
what's going to happen.
So we've got, you know, veryintentional efforts to keep
collars on animals, to keepcollars on packs at least, and
to kind of monitor that throughtime and see where wolves are
gonna ultimately settle.
And and we'll you know, we'llwe'll have a much more detailed
story to tell in 10 years, 15years, but yeah, for the time
(34:20):
being, we're doing the best tokeep track of all the animals
that we've put on the landscape.
unknown (34:24):
Yep.
SPEAKER_01 (34:25):
So wolves have kind of become the symbol of tension
between more urban areas andmore rural areas.
As wildlife biologists, how areyou navigating that conflict?
How are you having theseconversations with these two
people and try to help them seea little more eye to eye?
SPEAKER_03 (34:42):
Yeah, it that's I mean, that's the key piece of
wolf management.
Is it really all wildlifemanagement is people management?
And that's not something thatwe're necessarily all that well
trained or equipped to do.
A lot of that is learning on thejob, learning how to interface
with the rancher or the wolfadvocate or whomever.
And you're right, too.
I mean, when the initiative wason the ballot and it passed, the
the vast majority of Colorado'spopulation is on the urban front
(35:03):
range from Fort Collins down toColorado Springs.
And that's that's really where alot of that vote was carried,
right?
That's where the vast majorityof the population is.
And part of the ballotinitiative said that wolves
would be reintroduced west ofthe continental divide.
So those that are on the westslope, which is largely our more
rural, more agriculturalproducing communities,
particularly in the ranchingside of things, definitely feel
(35:24):
a rural-urban divide.
And I can empathize with that.
I can understand why they havethat sentiment.
And so it's it's a very, verychallenging situation to deal
with.
And by and large, not to saythat all of West Western Slope
of Colorado was opposed to wolfreintroduction.
The counties generally votedagainst it, but there are
pockets of support.
And there's no county that voted100% against wolf
(35:45):
reintroduction.
And so there are always theseissues.
You don't really know who you'regoing to talk to and what
people's perceptions are onwolves when you go to talk to
them.
And so making generalizationsthat all ranchers hate wolves is
not a fair assessment.
That's not the fact.
We've met many ranchers that areactually in favor of outfitters
as well.
People like the idea of huntingin an environment that has the
(36:05):
full suite or or at least a moremore full suite of the predators
that were historically here inColorado.
So it's a really challengingthing.
One of the things that'sdifferent about this than than
other reintroduction efforts isthat this was not, as I said
earlier, not a CPW-led effort.
And so when we go to thosecommunities and we say, you
know, we we understand you'reyou may not be in as fully in
(36:28):
support or fully in favor ofwolf restoration.
This is state law.
As state employees, this is whatwe're doing.
We're implementing state law,which is what the ballot
initiative came.
And so that that doesn'tnecessarily buy a whole lot of
sympathy.
People still don't like wolves.
That those that don't likewolves still don't like wolves.
But maybe that helps us in insome ways and in some of those
conversations.
But really, those conversationsare all about listening and
(36:50):
trying to understand.
We're not going to convincepeople that really are opposed
to wolves that they should be infavor of wolves.
That's not our intent at all.
It's to understand what theirconcerns are, see what the
resources are that we can haveand how we can try to make
things as positive as possiblefor both the wolves and for the
citizens of the state.
SPEAKER_02 (37:10):
Let's talk a little bit about the non-lethal methods
that are being used now to help,you know, with ranchers and to
keep wolves away from theirlivestock.
If they're working, are you guysdoing any work on that?
Or I know so there's some workat Colorado State University.
Yeah.
You know, how do we see thisplaying out?
SPEAKER_03 (37:29):
Yeah, I mean, so we know wherever what we said all
along, wherever wolves andlivestock share the landscape,
there's going to be conflict,right?
We're going to have wolves whoare a carnivore, a depredator, a
predator.
There's going to be depredationissues with wolves and
livestock.
And part of the ballotinitiative said that we had to
develop programs to try toresolve that or minimize those
kinds of things.
We're never going to prevent it.
And so, you know, a lot of waysthat we try to do that is by
(37:51):
implementing these non-lethaltools.
And there's a whole bunch ofdifferent kinds of things that
are pretty new in some ways andsome that are well tested in
other states as well.
Things like fladry, which is afence that line that has these
red flags on it and sometimeselectrified.
It works for a period of time.
It's not a long-term kind of asolution to the issue.
It gets deployed at the righttimes of the year in small
landscapes on calving pastures,lambing pastures, things like
(38:14):
that, where it's a smallcontained area, and that will
generally keep wolves out of thearea.
We use cameras to kind ofmonitor what wolf behavior is as
they come into contact withthose that flattery.
Noisemakers, sounds, lights, allof these different kinds of
things, but you're using noveltools to try to scare them out
of that system.
Also, human presence is a reallybig deal.
And so we've worked withColorado Department of Ag, CDA,
(38:37):
to implement a range ridingprogram.
And so we've got range ridersthat are out spending a lot of
time with the livestock.
They're not necessarily wolfbiologists, they're not wolf
biologists, but they're moreattuned to the livestock and
looking at livestock behavior,looking at livestock health and
seeing if there are ways to tryto change some of those
behaviors and try to keepconflict minimized to the
greatest extent possible.
(38:57):
And so all of these thingscumulatively add up.
And if we can find ways to usethe right tool in the right
circumstance, hopefully thathelps to address a lot of those
concerns that we have.
SPEAKER_02 (39:16):
But is there a behavioral difference?
And I realize Colorado is verydifferent.
It's remote, but it's also farmore urban than those three
states and where those wolvesare.
So how have those dynamics kindof played out or have they?
SPEAKER_00 (39:29):
Yeah, it's interesting because we think
about hunting and you know,trapping where trapping is
allowed in some of these states,as, you know, this is a major
cause of wolf mortality.
So not as much of the behavioryet as you're talking about.
But when I think about wolfmortality, you know, and think
about hunting, there are a lotof wolves that are harvested.
(39:52):
But then if we look at whenwolves were not hunted, say in
the tri-state area of Idaho,Montana, Wyoming, uh, before
they were delisted, so pre-2009,still the vast majority of wolf
mortality was caused by humans.
So this is and I'm talking aboutcontrol actions for livestock
depredations, you know, somepoaching.
(40:14):
But you know, up there for fromI think the late 80s until 2004
or so, they showed that naturalmortality was only about 12% of
mortality.
SPEAKER_02 (40:27):
And I bet that was dominated by wolves themselves.
SPEAKER_00 (40:30):
Exactly.
Right.
Yeah.
So, you know, when you looksomewhere that is highly
protected, like a Yellowstone orsomething, you do see that
number go down, um, whetherthey're, you know, protected or
not at that time.
But when I think aboutmortality, you know, at first
I'm like, oh, hunting would, youknow, cause a lot of mortality.
But then you look actually like,even when there's no hunting
(40:52):
season, humans cause a lot ofmortality.
You know, we have major roads.
We do have, you know, lethalremoval either by the agency or,
you know, a caught in the acttype of type of lethal removal
for wolves in Colorado, likethat is legal.
So when we're thinking about themortality part, you know, we do
actually see a lot ofhuman-cause mortality in places
(41:14):
where there's no hunting even.
So um, thinking more about thebehavioral side, wolves are
generally pretty cryptic.
I feel like, you know, there'sthere's an attitude where people
think maybe they're not, becausethere are a couple places, you
know, in the US where wolves arepretty visible.
But, you know, all of thoseboundaries are kind of
(41:37):
meaningless to wolves.
They are using, you know,national parks, they're using
states, you know, they're usingthis state and this state.
So a lot of those jurisdictionsdo change and they keep existing
no matter what jurisdictionthey're in, whether they're
subject to harvest or not.
So we'll see what happens.
I don't know if we'll see, youknow, major behavioral changes
(42:01):
because the wolves in Coloradoare, you know, still subject to
hazing when they're aroundlivestock.
So they're learning that, youknow, this is not a place that
they should be.
They can still be lethallyremoved if they're chasing
cattle or something like that.
So they are still subject tosome negative experiences with
(42:22):
humans.
So um, and when they're subjectto a negative experience like
hazing, that's a learningopportunity.
Whereas if they were harvested,there's no more learning.
Yeah, if the learning stops.
So we'll see.
I'm super interested, you know,coming from a different type of
experience being, you know, morereadily available to observe
(42:42):
wolves in Yellowstone, usually.
Um yeah, it'll be interestingthe way that wolves exist in
Colorado.
SPEAKER_01 (42:50):
What's one piece of advice that you would give maybe
students about to enter thefield or someone navigating this
conflict around conservation forthe first time?
SPEAKER_03 (43:01):
Yeah, that's a great question.
I I think the first thing is tolisten.
I think, you know, try to listento understand and try to
understand what people wherewhere people's perspectives are,
why they have the opinions thatthey do.
Don't try to convince themotherwise.
And just to listen to understandand to try to see what kinds of
solutions you can formulatetogether and not to come into a
(43:21):
situation thinking that you havethe answers to all of those
challenges, because there's alot of challenges in every
situation is different.
Every producer's operation isdifferent, everybody has
different pressures, differentkinds of concerns that they have
to address and balance.
And so the social side ofconflict management, whether
it's wolves or bears or mountainlions or or elk or ravens or
(43:41):
whatever, they're it's allchallenging and there everybody
has a different perspective.
And so understanding what thoseare and taking the time to
listen and ask good questions isis really key, a key skill.
SPEAKER_00 (43:53):
Definitely.
Yeah, I absolutely echo all ofthat.
Listening is going to be yourbest friend.
Um, I often dive a little bittoo deep into nuance and I want
to know the facts andeverything.
And honestly, sometimes itdoesn't matter.
Um, listening to what whatpeople want and what they're
(44:14):
feeling and what theirexperience is, you know, whether
it's with wolves or whatever, isprobably gonna be vastly
different than my experience andtrying to understand each other
is gonna be the most importantthing.
Um, and also I I would say thatI have found the relationships
that I built, even, you know, inundergrad or right after
(44:38):
mid-20s, early 20s havepersisted and you know, until
now and have been reallywonderful to be able to have
those relationships with people,whether it's, you know, other
biologists or producers outthere, being able to call
someone and say, Hey, I have aquestion about range riders.
I don't know who to ask.
(45:00):
You have range riders on yourland.
Can I ask you some naivequestions?
Has been really helpful.
So, you know, relationships areare kind of what drives just
humans as a species.
But as far as career goes and asfar as this major conflict, your
relationships are going to beyour best friend.
SPEAKER_02 (45:20):
I really think this is a critical point for all of
our listeners on this, butespecially merging uh
professionals, students, toreally pay attention to what
these folks are saying, becauseuh we often don't know what we
don't know.
And you don't know what thelandowner is is thinking and
feeling about their losses orthe amount of time they have to
(45:44):
put into something.
And what you're suggesting to meis you're integrating them into
this into the solution.
You're asking questions tryingto help understand what they're
going through to help develop asolution.
And I think that listening pieceto understand is critically
important.
And I'm just gonna kind of wrapit up with one last question,
(46:05):
um, just for a broader public.
If either of you are in theairport and start talking about
what you're doing and you'retalking to somebody from Orlando
or Los Angeles, why why shouldthey care about wolf
reintroduction in in Colorado?
SPEAKER_03 (46:20):
Yeah, it's a great, it's a great question.
And you know, it it's fun youtalk to friends and family that
are totally not in the wildlifeprofession or not in the natural
resource profession.
And and there's a lot ofquestions.
Why, why do this?
Why put yourself through this?
Why put the state through this?
And I think that it kind ofcomes back to uh this is what
the agency does.
We manage wildlife.
This is part of restoring thesystem.
(46:40):
This is addressing issues thathumans had an impact on wolf
populations and all kinds ofpredator populations 100 years
ago, 80 years ago.
And so now we're working toaddress a lot of those kinds of
things.
And it's it's the right thing todo in from the restoration
perspective.
SPEAKER_00 (46:56):
Yeah, I mean, I'll kind of go back to something I
said earlier.
You know, wildlife restoration,rewilding in general is both a
scientific and a philosophicalquestion.
When we get down to, you know,specifically wolves, wolves have
such an incredible amount oflore behind them.
(47:19):
We have had such a history withthis species in particular that
I think it's very normal to befascinated by them.
It's very normal to have, youknow, some big emotions tied to
them, whether that's positive ornegative, or what I seem to find
more often is a mix of both,really.
(47:41):
So, you know, I can't tellsomeone why they should care,
but I think if we look a littledeeper into our human history,
we can see this fascination.
And this is kind of just anotherstep in the history of wolves
and humans.
SPEAKER_02 (47:58):
I always try to come back to I enter into those
situations where you get thatquestion that most biologists
aren't quite ready to answer.
It's like, well, why should Icare about your greater
sagegrouse work or working withsalamanders?
I always try to come back tohealthy ecosystems.
If we have the entire complementof large predators, all the
(48:21):
ungulate species, all of thevarious other species, we've
done, we've done the environmenta good thing.
And that is going to manifest inclean air, clean water, wild
landscapes, uh places thatpeople can recreate.
So try to tie it back intosomething that they can care
about, and wolves are justanother part of that, of a
healthy, healthy ecosystem.
SPEAKER_03 (48:43):
And I think a really important part of wolf
restoration is coming back tothat conflict and having making
sure that we, you know, we wantto maintain wolf populations on
the landscape in the state, butwe also want to maintain
ranching.
That's that's part of theheritage of the state as well.
And so we have to work to findthose solutions to find out the
ways that ranchers can continueto do the good work that they do
and support wolf populations andelk populations and all of those
(49:06):
other things too.
And so it's not just aboutrestoring wolves, but it's about
restoring wolves in the contextof all of Colorado, western and
eastern and front range andurban and rural all together.
SPEAKER_00 (49:17):
Yeah.
And those private lands, thoseranches are providing incredible
wildlife habitat to not onlywolves, but all of their
species.
So we just like we value them tosuch an incredible degree for
the services and for thestewardship that those private
lands are providing.
Yep.
SPEAKER_02 (49:35):
I know there's, you know, some people view it as a
complete conflict or anadversarial, but I view this as
an enormous conservation successthat has its conflicts to make
it a success.
But I think this is a hugesuccess and really appreciate
you guys joining us and tellingus the story.
We may have to come back uh 10years and see how things
(49:55):
manifested that we talked about.
But uh we've been talking withBrennan Cassidy and Eric Odell
with Colorado Parks andWildlife.
Thanks so much for joining us.
We'll see you next time.
Yeah, thanks to both of you.
Thank you both.
SPEAKER_01 (50:08):
Thanks for joining us on the Our Wildlife podcast.
If you're ready to dive deeperinto wildlife science, explore
new career paths, or grow yourpersonal network, visit us at
wildlife.org.
Follow at the Wildlife Societyon social media, and subscribe
wherever you listen so you nevermiss out on a new episode.
We'll catch you next week withmore stories from the wild.
So wolves are back in Colorado, but the story isn't
so simple.
In this episode of Our WildLives, we sit down with Dr.
Brennan Cassidy, Wolf Monitoringand Data Coordinator, and Eric
Odell, Wolf Conservation ProgramManager at the Colorado Parks
and Wildlife Department.
Together, they unpack thecomplex journey of wolf
(00:22):
reintroduction in Colorado, fromhistorical extirpation to
today's restoration efforts.
We talk about the role of publicopinion and legislation in
shaping wildlife policy and diveinto the realities of wolf
livestock conflicts, managementstrategies, and the values and
science that guide it all.
You'll also hear behind thescenes stories from the field
(00:43):
and some of the key things to dowhen navigating conflict and
conservation.
SPEAKER_02 (01:11):
And I met Arnett, a co-host of the Our Wild Lives
Podcast.
It's great to have you guys andreally look forward to our
conversation.
SPEAKER_01 (01:19):
Can you give us a brief overview of wolves in
Colorado?
SPEAKER_03 (01:23):
Yeah, so the story of wolves in Colorado is
certainly a long one and aninteresting one for sure.
But to put it kind of briefly,historically wolves were
everywhere in Colorado.
They covered east to west, northto south.
Every county had wolveshistorically.
And through all of the predatorcontrol work that was done in
the early 1900s, the wolves wereultimately extirpated.
No more wolves were in thestate.
The last time we had wolves wasin the 1940s or so.
(01:45):
There was reintroductions thathappened outside of the state in
Yellowstone in central Idaho inthe mid-90s.
And Colorado maintained no wolfpopulations, no known wolves
quite a while until thosepopulations in the northern
Rockies really started to kindof take off, do well there.
And so after thosereintroductions in the 1990s, we
started to see individual wolvescoming down into the state from
(02:08):
time to time.
None of them lasted very long inthe state.
Some of them were monitored,collared, and some were not.
Some we found out about onlybecause they were hit on roads
and killed on I-70, right?
So all of these things werehappening in the larger lower 48
parts of the country.
And so at that time, wolves weremanaged by the Fish and Wildlife
(02:28):
Service.
They're federally listed.
And so there were these thingscalled the distinct population
segments, these differentgeographic areas where wolves
were managed.
And each DPS distinct populationsegment was managed differently.
In Colorado, I-70 is the majorinterstate east-west.
And to the north of I-70 was oneDPS, and to the south was
another DPS.
(02:48):
And so there was some exexpectation that there might be
a delisting of wolves in thatnorthern DPS.
And so at that time, we theColorado Division of Wildlife at
the time convened a workinggroup that was going to describe
how wolves would be managed inthe state as they migrated into
the state.
There was no reintroductiondiscussion about it.
But it's, you know, when ifwolves are delisted and
management authority then comesback to the state, how does this
(03:11):
how are we going to deal withthis as wolves naturally
continue this migration andultimately potential
establishment in the state?
And so this group put theserecommendations together for how
wolves will be managed.
That was finalized, approved in2004.
We never really had a populationof wolves become established in
the state.
And then the the whole DPS issuebecame a non-issue and wolves
(03:32):
were then listed throughout thecountry, with the exception of
Mexican wolves and red wolves.
That doesn't really pertain toColorado.
So all of this time is going on,and there's these ways that
wolves could be managed.
And we're seeing some naturalmigration, but not a whole lot
of it.
So then a group put together apetition in beginning in 2019,
(03:52):
starting to collect signatures.
In Colorado, you can do that.
You can collect signatures on apetition to get an issue put on
the statewide ballot.
And so that started the summerof 2019.
That was not a Colorado Parksand Wildlife led effort.
It was outside, that wascitizen-driven.
And ultimately they got enoughsignatures on their petitions to
put it on the ballot in Novemberof 2020.
(04:12):
And it passed.
And that created state law.
And that really directed ourwhole efforts from that point
forward to develop a wolf planto develop protocols for how
we're going to reintroducewolves, how we're going to
manage wolves, how we're goingto compensate for livestock
losses and things like that.
So there's a long story to it.
That's kind of the nutshell ofhow we got to where we are.
SPEAKER_02 (04:35):
That's interesting.
Colorado having lived in Oregon,you were taking a similar path
of Oregon.
Colorado was and develop inplanning for their immigration
into the state, basically.
But then the proposition for 114came along.
So how did the public opinioninfluence that?
I mean, it seems to me like thepublic was being informed on
(05:01):
wolf reintroduction.
They were being formed onecological benefits.
Parks and wildlife reallycouldn't lobby against it,
right?
There were a number of NGOs thatwere against this, of course, in
the ranching community andothers, but that public opinion
was swayed a little bit in favorof the reintroduction, of
course.
SPEAKER_03 (05:18):
It was a really interesting time because as a
state agency, when there is anissue on a statewide ballot,
we're just simply prohibitedfrom taking positions.
And so CPW, Collar Parks andWildlife, really didn't, we
certainly didn't take a positionon the proposition.
It was 114, or really put domuch in advocating one way or
the other for or against wolfreintroduction.
We just simply couldn't say muchabout that just based on state
(05:39):
law.
And so a lot of that was withthe way public opinion was
formed on that was the generaladvertising.
And there was a lot ofadvertising both sides for and
against wolf reintroduction.
We saw billboards all around thestate on highways, you know,
with all kinds of imagery thatyou might imagine if either
wolves are great or wolves areterrible.
And so that the, you know, Ithink that that's one of the key
takeaways from wolf management.
(06:00):
And as a wildlife agents, we doall kinds of restoration of all
different kinds of species.
For wolves, it's not thatdifferent biologically from all
the other aspects that we'vedone links reintroduction,
black-footed ferrets, all theseother things.
But socially and politically,it's a totally different issue.
And so that public opiniondrives a lot of in the way wolf
restoration happened and now howwolf management's happening.
SPEAKER_02 (06:22):
There's like a social carrying capacity
relative to the habitat carryingcapacity.
We as biologists all know whathabitat carrying capacity looks
like, but that social carryingcapacity is really critical in
all of this because there is athreshold that is well below the
habitat carrying capacity interms of how many wolves will be
(06:43):
socially accepted in the state.
SPEAKER_03 (06:45):
I think, yeah, I think you're absolutely right.
I mean, Colorado is perfectlysuited in a lot of ways for
wolves.
We've got huge ungulatepopulations, we've got lots of
public lands, we've got lots ofgood areas from a very general
biological perspective of whatmakes good wolf habitat, habitat
generalists.
So there's nothing particularlyspecific that they need.
But you're right, the socialcarrying capacity is very much
(07:06):
lower than whatever they couldmaintain as a biologically
self-regulating.
SPEAKER_02 (07:11):
Well, that public opinion drove the proposition
114, but it's also driving somecurrent things that are
happening now legislatively andsuch.
So that it's starting to playout live here in Colorado on
that social acceptance.
SPEAKER_00 (07:23):
So during that whole time, too, I was not with
Colorado Parks and Wildlife.
I'm fairly new to the agency,but watching from a distance and
watching, you know, the summerleading up to that vote, having
a couple of these wolves thatnaturally immigrated into
Colorado who bred and had pups.
(07:46):
I was viewing it from a fardistance.
I was sitting in Montanawatching with fascination this
whole entire thing play out.
And there seemed to be like,here's this little taste of what
it's like living with wolves inone small area, one group of
wolves.
I'm continually fascinated howthat entire situation played out
(08:10):
with these naturally immigratingwolves breeding, while also this
ballot initiative was gainingsignatures and actually getting
on the ballot just a couplemonths later.
What kind of cosmic alignmentwas that that all happened at
the same time?
SPEAKER_02 (08:27):
Especially given the politics in the neighboring
state and the managementstrategies there.
If they step across the border,they're in serious jeopardy.
Yeah.
And protected on this side ofColorado.
SPEAKER_01 (08:37):
Right.
Brennan, I think this is a greatone for you because you were
telling us how you've workedwith a few different distinct
populations of wolves.
So what makes the Colorado wolfreintroduction different from
previous efforts in otherplaces?
SPEAKER_00 (08:49):
Yeah.
So there's a couple things thatwe can kind of point to right
away that we've identifiedalready.
You know, this was spurred byProposition 114 and was a vote,
and there's plenty of publicopinion there in previous
translocation efforts in thelower 48 at least, that was not
(09:09):
led by a vote, that was led by afederal agency or a state
agency.
So there's some majordifferences there.
Colorado is, you know, we'relooking at a statewide
perspective.
And when we look at somethinglike Yellowstone, that was, you
know, a much tighter area and itwas a national park.
Uh so the goals and the missionstatements of the National Park
(09:31):
Service and a state agency arefairly different.
So looking at the two differentperspectives there, I think is
really interesting.
On more of a biological level,one thing that I've noticed
living in Colorado just for ayear and a half or so, coming
from some history in Yellowstonein particular, is Colorado is a
(09:52):
dramatic landscape.
I mean, there are deserts, highalpine peaks, like there are so
many different ecotypes in thisstate that I'm absolutely
fascinated watching wolves movearound and go places that I not
necessarily am completelysurprised by, but it's pretty
(10:16):
incredible.
I mean, wolves above 13,000feet, wolves moving through
desert that I, you know, didn'tnecessarily think was amazing
wolf habitat.
And coming from somewhere likeYellowstone, which is a little
bit less dramatic, it's prettyfascinating looking at a couple
of those, those kind ofbiological differences.
(10:36):
And also, we're just a littlebit further away from these
bigger populations that in the80s and and into the early 90s
before wolf reintroduction incentral Idaho and Yellowstone,
wolves were recolonizingnorthwestern Montana.
And there was a huge debate ofwhether wolf reintroduction in
(10:56):
in those areas was necessary ornot.
You know, ultimately ithappened, but those populations
are all connected now.
And when we look at Colorado,we're looking at the future and
thinking, oh, are we going to beconnected or not?
And thinking about thoseconsiderations for our founding
population to make sure we havea big enough and diverse enough
(11:19):
founding population.
SPEAKER_01 (11:21):
And talking about watching where these wolves are
going, is that part of yourwork?
You've got callers on them andyou're reading through all this
data of where they're going.
Can you tell us about that?
SPEAKER_00 (11:29):
Yes.
Yeah.
So I am the monitoringcoordinator and data
coordinator.
So collecting all that data,watching where are wolves going,
are they forming packs?
You know, which ones aresurviving, which ones are dying,
which ones are pairing andreproducing.
So, you know, it's a prettyexciting time.
We're in early summer of 2025and we're starting to get pup
(11:54):
counts on the four dens thatwe're monitoring.
We also have had severalmortalities this spring, but you
know, as we know, those twothings are what balances a
population, includingimmigration and emigration as
well.
We just don't see as much ofthat in Colorado as, you know,
because we're not closelyconnected to another wolf
(12:18):
population.
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (12:19):
You know, the literature's kind of played up a
good bit of the science behindecological benefits of having
wolf populations, Yellowstonebeing the ultimate science
playground for that.
My understanding is some ofthat's maybe a little misleading
or can be misleading.
And maybe you could talk alittle bit about what the
(12:40):
expected benefits are.
I know what the what I've heardfrom, you know, folks that
supported Proposition 114, andI've read the literature, but
I've also read the literaturethat doesn't necessarily support
them being a keystone predator.
So let's talk through that justa little bit about what the
expectations are here, andespecially given the dynamics
(13:01):
that you see in this state thatyou've described, you know, we
have deserts, we have the highplains, we have uh mountains,
they're up at 13,000 feet.
You got all that to contendwith.
They're gonna have differentecological effects on different
systems.
SPEAKER_00 (13:14):
Absolutely.
Um wolves are often, I think,throughout history, these
larger-than-life animals.
I mean, whether we're talkingabout thinking about Little Red
Riding Hood or the fact that,you know, wolves are saving
rivers or changing rivers orsomething, they're often seen as
these just incrediblylarger-than-life species,
(13:39):
really.
So thinking about what we call atrophic cascade, thinking about
wolves being these keystonepredators that when they're in
or on a landscape, they're goingto change everything and that
affect cascades throughout theentire ecosystem.
There's been so much interestingresearch out of Yellowstone, out
(14:03):
of Banff National Park, out ofother places that is building
upon the question of are wolvescausing these trophy cascades?
Um, huge debates.
But when I look at thatresearch, and when I look at the
landscape in Yellowstone, Istarted there in 2009, just
finished my PhD up.
(14:23):
So saw a lot of change go onthrough throughout that
ecosystem.
And when I see it, I see areally heterogeneous landscape.
And I see areas that are beingaffected, you know, willow
riparian areas being affected bysomething.
And some of these areas arerecovering, and then they might
(14:46):
be grazed down the next year.
Yellowstone in particular is anincredibly complicated
ecosystem.
So teasing out what is an effectof wolves, what's an effect of a
different, you know, elkpopulation, bison population,
changing climate.
SPEAKER_02 (15:05):
Climate impacts, exactly.
SPEAKER_00 (15:08):
You know, Yellowstone just had a major
flood two or three years agothat completely changed several
of those rivers.
So, you know, when we're lookingat that, we can see changes.
It's tough to assign all ofthose changes to wolves, really.
So when I am looking at thelandscape in Colorado, you know,
(15:30):
we're outside of a nationalpark.
We, you know, we have nationalparks in the in the state, but
we're looking at a statewidelevel.
You know, I'm looking at it andI'm looking at all of the other
things that are affecting thelandscape of Colorado.
And, you know, like we've talkedabout before, there are so many
different areas.
But if we concentrate on wherethe debate is around riparian
(15:51):
areas, I'm looking in Coloradoand I'm seeing climate change
effects, places being developed,human impacts on those areas,
huge demands for water just tohave humans exist.
And I have a really hard timethinking about wolves completely
(16:12):
changing rivers in Colorado.
So that's not to say that wolvesdon't have an effect on their
ecosystems.
They absolutely do.
I think what what we're lookingat in Colorado for, you know,
whether we see a trophic cascadeor not, I think that's going to
be really hard to tease out withall the other things that are
going on here.
SPEAKER_03 (16:32):
Yeah, agree with that too.
I mean, we're outside ofnational parks.
I think when you take that pieceaway, and the other piece of it
is time and numbers, right?
I mean, we're two or three yearsinto wolf restoration with 20,
30 animals on the ground.
Decades or maybe even.
Yeah, it's a long, long, longtime away from that.
And the story about wolveschanging rivers is a very
romantic one and a verysimplified one.
(16:54):
And I think actually people do adisservice to the idea of wolf
restoration by trying to givewolves that much credit.
I think that there's a lot ofreasons to restore wolves other
than restoring ecosystems.
Wolves are a native species tothe state.
As a State Wildlife Agency,that's one of our primary goals
and primary pieces of ourmission is to restore wildlife,
not to not to portray a storythat may or may not actually be
(17:15):
true.
So I think that that's a reallyimportant piece.
SPEAKER_02 (17:17):
I agree.
I, you know, I went toYellowstone for the first time.
Well, it's 1975, but I don'tremember a damn thing other than
a bear crawling in the back ofmy grandpa's truck trying to get
our cooler.
Um I remember a lot more thanthat, but but I don't I don't
remember anything about elknumbers and that kind of thing.
I darn sure noticed it when Iwent in '83 when I was an
(17:40):
emerging wildlife uh student atMontana State.
And I can assure you the elkwere way overpopulated on the
winter ranges for sure, allaround Yellowstone.
So that was just an obviousobservation.
You didn't you didn't have to bea rocket scientist or have
scientists or have a whole lotof data to come to that
realization, just look at theground and range.
(18:02):
And obviously, not only reducingthe numbers, but redistributing
the animals across thelandscape, you're gonna see
those vegetative impacts.
But wolves are just one of manyagents of change, is kind of
what I heard.
Right.
Yes.
SPEAKER_03 (18:17):
And even in those the northern range of
Yellowstone, it's not justwolves that have changed those
exangular populations, right?
There are lots of other thingsthat are happening here.
SPEAKER_00 (18:24):
Trevor Burrus, Jr.
Yeah.
Major mountain lion recovery,grizzly bear recovery, and you
know, at the same time as wolfrestoration in that area, we had
differences in hunting pressureright outside the park on that
northern range elk herd, majordrought.
I think sometimes people forgetthe 88 fires than like that
(18:45):
whole story and in the elk storyin Yellowstone.
So I view wolf restoration kindof like Eric said, like there's
so many different reasons torestore a species, not just
wolves, that there's thescientific side, this very
technical side of what do wolvesdo in an ecosystem?
There's also a veryphilosophical side of what is
(19:07):
the value of rewilding?
What is the value of a speciesbeing on the landscape in that
intrinsic value?
SPEAKER_01 (19:54):
So you both have probably an ex experiences with
wolves that most of us willnever get to have.
So could you tell us a littlebit about what it's actually
like working with wolves out inthe field, you know, capturing
them, putting collars on them?
Tell us tell us some storiesabout that.
SPEAKER_03 (20:12):
Yeah, well, I guess I'll start with the first time I
came into contact with wolves,you know, as what Brennan
alluded to early on, as thewhole petition gathering is
happening, we're having wolvesnaturally migrate into the
state.
And so we had a black wolf thatcame in.
We got a photo of it turned intous by the public, and then we
following her, she had a collaron, talked with our colleagues
in Wyoming, got the informationthere, and then started as we're
(20:35):
monitoring her, noticed her withanother animal, a gray animal.
So it was in January, February21, 2021, that we captured that
animal and put a collar on them.
And that was the first time thatthe state agency, Colorado Parks
and Wildlife, had collared awolf.
And so leaving the helicopter,coming up to that animal and
just seeing it for the firsttime after it had been sedated
was a pretty amazing kind of athing.
(20:55):
And so it's the first timeyou're hands-on with an animal,
you're maneuvering it, measuringit, putting a collar on it,
making sure that health is goodand it turned out to be a male,
those two ended up breeding andhad the first litter of pups
that we had ever had.
And so that you know, as a firstexperience into wolves, that was
a pretty remarkable kind of athing to experience.
And of course, we've had lots ofother opportunities to be
(21:16):
hands-on.
A lot of wolf management is nothands-on, it's a lot of it is
monitoring from afar.
But because we're in the midstof this really active
restoration piece, there is alot of of wolf handling.
But that first experience waswas something I'll never forget.
SPEAKER_00 (21:29):
My first wolf job was I was a technician for a
master's student, Dr.
Matt Metz, in Yellowstone.
I was 19 years old.
I was a wildlife ecology majorwith University of
Wisconsin-Stevens Point.
And I thought, what a wildopportunity.
Like, I'm probably never gonnawork with wolves again.
(21:50):
So I might as well like reallyenjoy and learn everything I can
this summer.
And, you know, one of my one ofmy first days for that job was
we were generally searching GPSclusters.
So we weren't seeing wolves awhole lot, but we helped monitor
a couple dens and tried to getpup counts.
(22:12):
So we went out super early onemorning and we got to watch this
den from mile and a half, twomiles away.
And like that's kind of that'smy favorite stuff.
You know, scopes have improvedin the last 16 years, but just
watching wolves do wolf things,they don't have no idea we're
there a couple miles awaywatching.
(22:34):
So to be able to see that andthen be able to be part of this
capture and translocationeffort, you have a huge
responsibility to make sure thatwolf is well cared for and to
make sure that you give it thebest care possible.
So having a wolf in hand is it'syou know, it's pretty heavy,
(22:56):
like a heavy feeling to makesure that that wolf is able to
go out after you release it inthis brand new home to be able
to go do wolf things again.
So it's really nice to be ableto see the wolves that we
captured and translocated outthere, just doing what they
naturally do.
Um, did a flight the other day,saw a couple of the wolves that
(23:17):
we translocated this last yeartraveling around.
One male was bringing food backto a rendezvous site, big, big
belly, big belly full of food.
And it was really nice to justsee him, you know, doing wolf
things after we had handled himso recently.
SPEAKER_01 (23:33):
You say that you were there that summer and you
were never gonna deal withwolves again.
What happened?
What hooked you was going there?
SPEAKER_00 (23:41):
Yeah, 16 years later.
Um yeah, I mean, I I had thatjob and I was like, this was
absolutely incredible.
I ended up going back that nextsummer and worked for the
Yellowstone Bird Program.
Then things somehow worked out.
Um, graduated from with mybachelor's, moved out, worked
(24:01):
with Raptors in Yellowstone,worked with mountain lions in
Yellowstone, and then um kind ofgot in this cycle of working
with the bird program in thesummer and the wolf program in
the winter.
So the busy season for bothtaxa.
Worked with really incrediblepeople, got, you know, really
incredible experience doingthat.
Um yeah, I guess I got bit bythe bug a little bit.
SPEAKER_02 (24:25):
I think when you lock yourself into an idea that
I want to be this, you're gonnaget thrown a gyro ball or
something.
You know, it's just like, andyou go where the opportunity
lands.
You just do in our profession.
SPEAKER_03 (24:38):
Well, and that's kind of one of my takeaways
because I don't have a historyof having a whole lot of wolf
experience.
I've been involved with somewolf issues throughout my career
here at CPW, but I get askedthat a lot, like people that are
aspiring students that want tobecome a wildlife biologist,
that want to becomefundamentally a wolf biologist.
And I said, Well, my path wasnot that way at all.
I started out as anundergraduate.
My undergraduate thesis was onpollination ecology, watching
(24:59):
bumblebees and flowers and thatkind of stuff.
And so I think that to me, thatwas kind of one of my big
takeaways is don't say no.
Say yes to everything.
And any opportunity that comesyour way can turn out to be a
very interesting path.
SPEAKER_02 (25:10):
Trevor Burrus, Jr.
That's extraordinarily sageadvice because you know you
think about it being ageneralist versus a specialist,
and you know, the wolf is anultimate generalist, isn't it?
Trevor Burrus, it is.
I mean, they can live anywhereon about anything.
And so I think all biologiststhat enter into this profession,
if they think they're good-andsome do follow that linear path
(25:30):
for sure, entire career.
Trevor Burrus, Jr. (25:32):
Yeah, and the body of knowledge that
that's able to develop and isgreat.
I mean, we need people that thatare these specialists that do
that, but it's not necessarilybut you don't have to start as
your technician job and you knowfollow that all the way through
being a specialist.
SPEAKER_00 (25:46):
I didn't take kind of like a normal route that a
wildlife technician takes ofbeing in one place for six
months or a year and then goingto another species in another
location and and doing somethingelse.
I really was lucky enough to beimmersed in Yellowstone National
Park was just still wild to me.
(26:06):
But being able to see that evenone location through several
different species' eyes.
And that's a really unique.
Very unique, you know, beingable to see that landscape
through through the eyes ofmountain lions and then golden
eagles and look, actually, theyuse this landscape very
similarly.
Yeah.
(26:26):
And to look, you know, throughthe eyes of common loons and and
wolves was very, veryinteresting.
Um, so I yeah, definitely feltlucky to be able to do that.
And yeah, wolves being theultimate generalist, they're
also incredibly resilient.
So yeah, trying to have have alittle bit of a generalist
(26:47):
background while diving intowolf ecology and you know,
graduate school being wolfecology, but also having that
resiliency to to you know stickwith it or you know, do
something else else if that'sneeded.
SPEAKER_02 (27:01):
Yeah.
Let's dig in a little deeper onthe some of the kind of
ecological interactions here inColorado.
I realize it's early in thegame, um, but wolves got to eat
uh a lot.
And so they're alreadyinteracting with our ungulate
populations.
We'll get into interactions withlivestock and such later.
But um how are how are you whatare you seeing early on here
(27:24):
with their interactions with ourungulate populations?
But also is anyone kind oflooking at some of the effects
on the rest other predators inthe state?
How's that playing out?
SPEAKER_00 (27:35):
Yeah, I mean, yeah, starting with the other
carnivores in Colorado, when Ithink of some of the major ones,
I think of, you know, blackbears, mountain lions, coyotes.
So we have actually already seenone wolf killed by a mountain
lion.
It was our first one last April.
And to me, that's veryinteresting because I had never
(27:59):
seen that before.
And, you know, a lot of mygraduate work was on wolf-cause
specific mortality.
So having never seen it, it wasvery interesting because the
dynamics in Colorado right noware such that, you know, we have
some formed packs now, we havesome dens now.
But at that point, we had a lotof individual wolves wandering
(28:23):
around looking at the landscape.
They just got here.
So when I saw that, you know,and we reached out to some of
our counterparts in other statesto ask, hey, have you guys seen
this?
You know, Washington was anexample.
They had seen it several times.
SPEAKER_02 (28:37):
Uh lions killed wolves.
Exactly.
Definitely competitors.
SPEAKER_00 (28:41):
Yeah.
And it really comes down to Ithink these wolves not being in
groups, because one-on-one, Ithink a mountain lion's gonna
win every time.
SPEAKER_02 (28:51):
But when we get to I would have predicted that too,
right?
Not being a predator ecologist,but that would have been my
prediction.
It makes complete sense.
It does.
SPEAKER_00 (28:58):
Um, but then when we get into you know groups of
wolves that are three, four,five plus, then the equation
changes.
So when I'm out here looking at,okay, we have a lot of single
wolves wandering around.
There's a lot of mountain lionsin Colorado.
And they're vulnerable to that,that type of you know,
(29:18):
interspecific predation, really.
So that has been fascinating tolook at.
We don't have many examples ofblack bears interacting with
wolves at this point.
You know, we get black bears onon cameras that we've set out
for for wolves, and anecdotally,I've I've talked to some people
who have, you know, a wolfpresence in their area, and
(29:40):
they're noticing, oh, here wehave what seems like less
coyotes in this area.
And that's what we've seen playout in other areas.
You know, wolves and coyotes arecompetitors, and and wolves are
often gonna win that fight.
So, but then, you know, one stepfurther, do we see more foxes in
(30:01):
that area?
Because foxes and coyotes are.
SPEAKER_02 (30:07):
Exactly.
SPEAKER_00 (30:08):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So we have a couple of thoseinteractions that, you know,
some anecdotal, some we've seendirect mortality from for
wolves.
So yeah, we would like to seesome more packs of wolves for
multiple reasons, but one ofthem is to kind of navigate this
landscape that has a lot ofmountain lines on it.
SPEAKER_02 (30:27):
So what about our ungulate populations, Eric?
SPEAKER_03 (30:29):
What do you see in there?
So I mean, like I said, we'rewe're way early in into this,
and we don't have the numbers orthe time uh in here to see any
kind of effect.
They're certainly predating onungulates.
We've got all these individualanimals roaming around and not a
pack defending a territory andreally kind of establishing
themselves in a particular.
That's when we'll really startseeing it.
And that's when we may start tosee things that are, you know,
(30:51):
much more clear in terms of someimpacts, but or th those results
may not be quite as clear, too,because of all the different
effects on the landscape.
And so yeah, there's certainlyyou know, wolves are carnivores
that we certainly expect them toeat meat.
That's what wolves do.
But it's early to say how it'sgoing to affect our ungulate
populations in the state.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (31:09):
Yeah.
It's interesting.
We were watching a drainage thata den was in just a couple weeks
ago.
And I've seen this over andover.
You know, there were cow elk inthat drainage.
This was right before calving.
So they all still lookedpregnant to me.
Um, but the den was not even amile away.
(31:31):
Those wolves have been there forsix weeks, and yet there's still
elk using that drainage just asthey would before.
So it's yeah, the the effects uhof wolves on ungulates,
particularly elk, I look at aslike the numeric effect of how
many elk are wolves killing, andthat behavioral effect.
(31:53):
Are they moving to differentareas?
Are they avoiding riparianareas?
And you know, we've seenresearch out of Utah State and
Yellowstone that is that showedelk might change their patterns
of going into those riskierareas, those willow areas for a
couple hours a day.
(32:15):
But in general, they're notcompletely avoiding those areas,
which kind of ties back to ourtrophic cascades question and
and gets back in there.
So it is it is fascinating tome, you know, having watched
wolf dens over the years andwatched elk use those areas,
even though they're they knowwolves are there.
(32:36):
Like I've seen them pick uptheir head and and look at a
wolf walking across, you know, asage hillside.
Like you know that there's a denthere, but some for some reason
you're okay with it.
So they have some sort ofcommunication we just can't
possibly understand.
unknown (32:53):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (32:53):
I talked to the hunting community a good bit.
And of course, there's obviousconcern about competition for
sure, you know, big bull elk anddeer and that kind of thing.
But an interesting angle onthis, I was talking with an
outfitter last year, and herconcern was the fact that if the
elk redistribute because of apack of wolves, I'm out of
(33:16):
business.
Outfitters get a permit for avery specific location in the
landscape here in well, anywhereprobably in all states.
But here in Colorado, that's howit works, right?
You get a permit for an area,and if a pack happens to have
that behavioral influence on aherd, uh the elk redistribute to
private land, for example, wherethey may feel safer.
(33:38):
Um it's just an interestingangle.
It's not just the killing of thenumbers of elk, but it can be
the redistribution that orthere's a concern to the hunting
community.
SPEAKER_03 (33:48):
Trevor Burrus, Jr.
It may push them out of areas,it may push them into areas.
It could push them in.
It could be opportunistic and bebeneficial too.
Yep.
SPEAKER_02 (33:54):
So a lot of speculation with not a lot of
not a lot of things manifestingjust yet.
SPEAKER_03 (34:00):
We've got and and that's part of it too, is that
we've got a really good programto monitor wolves and to see
what's going to happen.
So we've got, you know, veryintentional efforts to keep
collars on animals, to keepcollars on packs at least, and
to kind of monitor that throughtime and see where wolves are
gonna ultimately settle.
And and we'll you know, we'llwe'll have a much more detailed
story to tell in 10 years, 15years, but yeah, for the time
(34:20):
being, we're doing the best tokeep track of all the animals
that we've put on the landscape.
unknown (34:24):
Yep.
SPEAKER_01 (34:25):
So wolves have kind of become the symbol of tension
between more urban areas andmore rural areas.
As wildlife biologists, how areyou navigating that conflict?
How are you having theseconversations with these two
people and try to help them seea little more eye to eye?
SPEAKER_03 (34:42):
Yeah, it that's I mean, that's the key piece of
wolf management.
Is it really all wildlifemanagement is people management?
And that's not something thatwe're necessarily all that well
trained or equipped to do.
A lot of that is learning on thejob, learning how to interface
with the rancher or the wolfadvocate or whomever.
And you're right, too.
I mean, when the initiative wason the ballot and it passed, the
the vast majority of Colorado'spopulation is on the urban front
(35:03):
range from Fort Collins down toColorado Springs.
And that's that's really where alot of that vote was carried,
right?
That's where the vast majorityof the population is.
And part of the ballotinitiative said that wolves
would be reintroduced west ofthe continental divide.
So those that are on the westslope, which is largely our more
rural, more agriculturalproducing communities,
particularly in the ranchingside of things, definitely feel
(35:24):
a rural-urban divide.
And I can empathize with that.
I can understand why they havethat sentiment.
And so it's it's a very, verychallenging situation to deal
with.
And by and large, not to saythat all of West Western Slope
of Colorado was opposed to wolfreintroduction.
The counties generally votedagainst it, but there are
pockets of support.
And there's no county that voted100% against wolf
(35:45):
reintroduction.
And so there are always theseissues.
You don't really know who you'regoing to talk to and what
people's perceptions are onwolves when you go to talk to
them.
And so making generalizationsthat all ranchers hate wolves is
not a fair assessment.
That's not the fact.
We've met many ranchers that areactually in favor of outfitters
as well.
People like the idea of huntingin an environment that has the
(36:05):
full suite or or at least a moremore full suite of the predators
that were historically here inColorado.
So it's a really challengingthing.
One of the things that'sdifferent about this than than
other reintroduction efforts isthat this was not, as I said
earlier, not a CPW-led effort.
And so when we go to thosecommunities and we say, you
know, we we understand you'reyou may not be in as fully in
(36:28):
support or fully in favor ofwolf restoration.
This is state law.
As state employees, this is whatwe're doing.
We're implementing state law,which is what the ballot
initiative came.
And so that that doesn'tnecessarily buy a whole lot of
sympathy.
People still don't like wolves.
That those that don't likewolves still don't like wolves.
But maybe that helps us in insome ways and in some of those
conversations.
But really, those conversationsare all about listening and
(36:50):
trying to understand.
We're not going to convincepeople that really are opposed
to wolves that they should be infavor of wolves.
That's not our intent at all.
It's to understand what theirconcerns are, see what the
resources are that we can haveand how we can try to make
things as positive as possiblefor both the wolves and for the
citizens of the state.
SPEAKER_02 (37:10):
Let's talk a little bit about the non-lethal methods
that are being used now to help,you know, with ranchers and to
keep wolves away from theirlivestock.
If they're working, are you guysdoing any work on that?
Or I know so there's some workat Colorado State University.
Yeah.
You know, how do we see thisplaying out?
SPEAKER_03 (37:29):
Yeah, I mean, so we know wherever what we said all
along, wherever wolves andlivestock share the landscape,
there's going to be conflict,right?
We're going to have wolves whoare a carnivore, a depredator, a
predator.
There's going to be depredationissues with wolves and
livestock.
And part of the ballotinitiative said that we had to
develop programs to try toresolve that or minimize those
kinds of things.
We're never going to prevent it.
And so, you know, a lot of waysthat we try to do that is by
(37:51):
implementing these non-lethaltools.
And there's a whole bunch ofdifferent kinds of things that
are pretty new in some ways andsome that are well tested in
other states as well.
Things like fladry, which is afence that line that has these
red flags on it and sometimeselectrified.
It works for a period of time.
It's not a long-term kind of asolution to the issue.
It gets deployed at the righttimes of the year in small
landscapes on calving pastures,lambing pastures, things like
(38:14):
that, where it's a smallcontained area, and that will
generally keep wolves out of thearea.
We use cameras to kind ofmonitor what wolf behavior is as
they come into contact withthose that flattery.
Noisemakers, sounds, lights, allof these different kinds of
things, but you're using noveltools to try to scare them out
of that system.
Also, human presence is a reallybig deal.
And so we've worked withColorado Department of Ag, CDA,
(38:37):
to implement a range ridingprogram.
And so we've got range ridersthat are out spending a lot of
time with the livestock.
They're not necessarily wolfbiologists, they're not wolf
biologists, but they're moreattuned to the livestock and
looking at livestock behavior,looking at livestock health and
seeing if there are ways to tryto change some of those
behaviors and try to keepconflict minimized to the
greatest extent possible.
(38:57):
And so all of these thingscumulatively add up.
And if we can find ways to usethe right tool in the right
circumstance, hopefully thathelps to address a lot of those
concerns that we have.
SPEAKER_02 (39:16):
But is there a behavioral difference?
And I realize Colorado is verydifferent.
It's remote, but it's also farmore urban than those three
states and where those wolvesare.
So how have those dynamics kindof played out or have they?
SPEAKER_00 (39:29):
Yeah, it's interesting because we think
about hunting and you know,trapping where trapping is
allowed in some of these states,as, you know, this is a major
cause of wolf mortality.
So not as much of the behavioryet as you're talking about.
But when I think about wolfmortality, you know, and think
about hunting, there are a lotof wolves that are harvested.
(39:52):
But then if we look at whenwolves were not hunted, say in
the tri-state area of Idaho,Montana, Wyoming, uh, before
they were delisted, so pre-2009,still the vast majority of wolf
mortality was caused by humans.
So this is and I'm talking aboutcontrol actions for livestock
depredations, you know, somepoaching.
(40:14):
But you know, up there for fromI think the late 80s until 2004
or so, they showed that naturalmortality was only about 12% of
mortality.
SPEAKER_02 (40:27):
And I bet that was dominated by wolves themselves.
SPEAKER_00 (40:30):
Exactly.
Right.
Yeah.
So, you know, when you looksomewhere that is highly
protected, like a Yellowstone orsomething, you do see that
number go down, um, whetherthey're, you know, protected or
not at that time.
But when I think aboutmortality, you know, at first
I'm like, oh, hunting would, youknow, cause a lot of mortality.
But then you look actually like,even when there's no hunting
(40:52):
season, humans cause a lot ofmortality.
You know, we have major roads.
We do have, you know, lethalremoval either by the agency or,
you know, a caught in the acttype of type of lethal removal
for wolves in Colorado, likethat is legal.
So when we're thinking about themortality part, you know, we do
actually see a lot ofhuman-cause mortality in places
(41:14):
where there's no hunting even.
So um, thinking more about thebehavioral side, wolves are
generally pretty cryptic.
I feel like, you know, there'sthere's an attitude where people
think maybe they're not, becausethere are a couple places, you
know, in the US where wolves arepretty visible.
But, you know, all of thoseboundaries are kind of
(41:37):
meaningless to wolves.
They are using, you know,national parks, they're using
states, you know, they're usingthis state and this state.
So a lot of those jurisdictionsdo change and they keep existing
no matter what jurisdictionthey're in, whether they're
subject to harvest or not.
So we'll see what happens.
I don't know if we'll see, youknow, major behavioral changes
(42:01):
because the wolves in Coloradoare, you know, still subject to
hazing when they're aroundlivestock.
So they're learning that, youknow, this is not a place that
they should be.
They can still be lethallyremoved if they're chasing
cattle or something like that.
So they are still subject tosome negative experiences with
(42:22):
humans.
So um, and when they're subjectto a negative experience like
hazing, that's a learningopportunity.
Whereas if they were harvested,there's no more learning.
Yeah, if the learning stops.
So we'll see.
I'm super interested, you know,coming from a different type of
experience being, you know, morereadily available to observe
(42:42):
wolves in Yellowstone, usually.
Um yeah, it'll be interestingthe way that wolves exist in
Colorado.
SPEAKER_01 (42:50):
What's one piece of advice that you would give maybe
students about to enter thefield or someone navigating this
conflict around conservation forthe first time?
SPEAKER_03 (43:01):
Yeah, that's a great question.
I I think the first thing is tolisten.
I think, you know, try to listento understand and try to
understand what people wherewhere people's perspectives are,
why they have the opinions thatthey do.
Don't try to convince themotherwise.
And just to listen to understandand to try to see what kinds of
solutions you can formulatetogether and not to come into a
(43:21):
situation thinking that you havethe answers to all of those
challenges, because there's alot of challenges in every
situation is different.
Every producer's operation isdifferent, everybody has
different pressures, differentkinds of concerns that they have
to address and balance.
And so the social side ofconflict management, whether
it's wolves or bears or mountainlions or or elk or ravens or
(43:41):
whatever, they're it's allchallenging and there everybody
has a different perspective.
And so understanding what thoseare and taking the time to
listen and ask good questions isis really key, a key skill.
SPEAKER_00 (43:53):
Definitely.
Yeah, I absolutely echo all ofthat.
Listening is going to be yourbest friend.
Um, I often dive a little bittoo deep into nuance and I want
to know the facts andeverything.
And honestly, sometimes itdoesn't matter.
Um, listening to what whatpeople want and what they're
(44:14):
feeling and what theirexperience is, you know, whether
it's with wolves or whatever, isprobably gonna be vastly
different than my experience andtrying to understand each other
is gonna be the most importantthing.
Um, and also I I would say thatI have found the relationships
that I built, even, you know, inundergrad or right after
(44:38):
mid-20s, early 20s havepersisted and you know, until
now and have been reallywonderful to be able to have
those relationships with people,whether it's, you know, other
biologists or producers outthere, being able to call
someone and say, Hey, I have aquestion about range riders.
I don't know who to ask.
(45:00):
You have range riders on yourland.
Can I ask you some naivequestions?
Has been really helpful.
So, you know, relationships areare kind of what drives just
humans as a species.
But as far as career goes and asfar as this major conflict, your
relationships are going to beyour best friend.
SPEAKER_02 (45:20):
I really think this is a critical point for all of
our listeners on this, butespecially merging uh
professionals, students, toreally pay attention to what
these folks are saying, becauseuh we often don't know what we
don't know.
And you don't know what thelandowner is is thinking and
feeling about their losses orthe amount of time they have to
(45:44):
put into something.
And what you're suggesting to meis you're integrating them into
this into the solution.
You're asking questions tryingto help understand what they're
going through to help develop asolution.
And I think that listening pieceto understand is critically
important.
And I'm just gonna kind of wrapit up with one last question,
(46:05):
um, just for a broader public.
If either of you are in theairport and start talking about
what you're doing and you'retalking to somebody from Orlando
or Los Angeles, why why shouldthey care about wolf
reintroduction in in Colorado?
SPEAKER_03 (46:20):
Yeah, it's a great, it's a great question.
And you know, it it's fun youtalk to friends and family that
are totally not in the wildlifeprofession or not in the natural
resource profession.
And and there's a lot ofquestions.
Why, why do this?
Why put yourself through this?
Why put the state through this?
And I think that it kind ofcomes back to uh this is what
the agency does.
We manage wildlife.
This is part of restoring thesystem.
(46:40):
This is addressing issues thathumans had an impact on wolf
populations and all kinds ofpredator populations 100 years
ago, 80 years ago.
And so now we're working toaddress a lot of those kinds of
things.
And it's it's the right thing todo in from the restoration
perspective.
SPEAKER_00 (46:56):
Yeah, I mean, I'll kind of go back to something I
said earlier.
You know, wildlife restoration,rewilding in general is both a
scientific and a philosophicalquestion.
When we get down to, you know,specifically wolves, wolves have
such an incredible amount oflore behind them.
(47:19):
We have had such a history withthis species in particular that
I think it's very normal to befascinated by them.
It's very normal to have, youknow, some big emotions tied to
them, whether that's positive ornegative, or what I seem to find
more often is a mix of both,really.
(47:41):
So, you know, I can't tellsomeone why they should care,
but I think if we look a littledeeper into our human history,
we can see this fascination.
And this is kind of just anotherstep in the history of wolves
and humans.
SPEAKER_02 (47:58):
I always try to come back to I enter into those
situations where you get thatquestion that most biologists
aren't quite ready to answer.
It's like, well, why should Icare about your greater
sagegrouse work or working withsalamanders?
I always try to come back tohealthy ecosystems.
If we have the entire complementof large predators, all the
(48:21):
ungulate species, all of thevarious other species, we've
done, we've done the environmenta good thing.
And that is going to manifest inclean air, clean water, wild
landscapes, uh places thatpeople can recreate.
So try to tie it back intosomething that they can care
about, and wolves are justanother part of that, of a
healthy, healthy ecosystem.
SPEAKER_03 (48:43):
And I think a really important part of wolf
restoration is coming back tothat conflict and having making
sure that we, you know, we wantto maintain wolf populations on
the landscape in the state, butwe also want to maintain
ranching.
That's that's part of theheritage of the state as well.
And so we have to work to findthose solutions to find out the
ways that ranchers can continueto do the good work that they do
and support wolf populations andelk populations and all of those
(49:06):
other things too.
And so it's not just aboutrestoring wolves, but it's about
restoring wolves in the contextof all of Colorado, western and
eastern and front range andurban and rural all together.
SPEAKER_00 (49:17):
Yeah.
And those private lands, thoseranches are providing incredible
wildlife habitat to not onlywolves, but all of their
species.
So we just like we value them tosuch an incredible degree for
the services and for thestewardship that those private
lands are providing.
Yep.
SPEAKER_02 (49:35):
I know there's, you know, some people view it as a
complete conflict or anadversarial, but I view this as
an enormous conservation successthat has its conflicts to make
it a success.
But I think this is a hugesuccess and really appreciate
you guys joining us and tellingus the story.
We may have to come back uh 10years and see how things
(49:55):
manifested that we talked about.
But uh we've been talking withBrennan Cassidy and Eric Odell
with Colorado Parks andWildlife.
Thanks so much for joining us.
We'll see you next time.
Yeah, thanks to both of you.
Thank you both.
SPEAKER_01 (50:08):
Thanks for joining us on the Our Wildlife podcast.
If you're ready to dive deeperinto wildlife science, explore
new career paths, or grow yourpersonal network, visit us at
wildlife.org.
Follow at the Wildlife Societyon social media, and subscribe
wherever you listen so you nevermiss out on a new episode.
We'll catch you next week withmore stories from the wild.
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