Episode Transcript
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John (00:00):
Was really good devs.
I recovered from the vid.
It was as bad as when I got the booster,probably the second and third shot.
Probably lasted a good three to fourdays though, feeling pretty shitty.
I like to think that thevaccines kept it at bay, from
what could have been much worse.
The hardest parts, as I mentioned,was isolating from my pack.
(00:22):
That was the thing thatmade me regret whatever.
I went out to go experienceto get the damn thing.
In a better news.
The script, the.
Application that I use to do all thepost-production for this podcast.
Except me into the affiliate program.
if you make content.
I really dig the script becauseit lets me edit video and audio.
(00:44):
Like I would a text document.
And they do the transcription.
And have pretty powerfulautomatic audio mastering.
So there's a link to myreferral code in the show notes.
If you make content and are willing tocheck out a different software sets.
Hopefully, I didn't feel like an ad.
Definitely send me some hate messages.
(01:05):
If you want me to cut that shit out orclassified under that whole no bullshit.
No.
As no bullshit.
creed of our show.
Now hit my music.
On episode 34 of the game,devs podcasts out of play area.
I sit down with Henry Golding.
(01:25):
Uh, principal software engineeringlead at Xbox game studios.
He's a fellow Seattle developer who cameover by way of the UK as a programmer on
sea of thieves, Minecraft Disney universeand dead space extraction for the week.
And this episode, we go in on what testdriven development is and where you can
(01:48):
go to learn more, as well as his journeythroughout game dev from how he landed.
To becoming a programmer, what he studied,how he broke in and making the jump
from the UK to the west coast and more.
Please welcome Henry Golding.
Let's fall the fuck out.
Catherine (02:09):
Bienvenido Bienvenue Welcome
to the out of play area podcast, a
show by video game devs for game devs,where the guests open up one-on-one
about their journey, their experiences,their views, and their ideas.
No ads, no bullshit.
Join us as we venture far outof the play area with your host
seasoned game designer, John Diaz
John (02:32):
Where's the accent from
Henry?
Henry G (02:34):
Well, you probably
thought I was Australian.
I bet
John (02:36):
No,
Henry G (02:37):
you didn't.
Okay.
Many, Americans
do think that I'm Australian.
that's, my little trick.
John (02:41):
I think you, have a
more proper Queen's English
Henry G (02:44):
I, am English.
I am from England and thatis the accent that I have
John (02:48):
to me anyway.
automatically adds likeplus 20 till your IQ,
Henry G (02:54):
That's to my charisma modifier.
John (02:56):
Yup.
That's totally it.
Henry G (02:57):
It's interesting.
Cause like even people who I used toknow who they've moved to America, you
know, like any, a few years before,you could already kind of listen to
them as a person who didn't live inthe states, I could really pick out
like certain changes in the speech.
And I was like, oh, Ibet they don't know that.
Right.
And I think the same as PRit's probably an English person
listening to this right now.
It's like, wow, Henrysounds really American.
(03:18):
and I was watching a video of myself.
This was an integral video thatwe did to kind of pitch out this
idea of what we're doing to see ifthey use other studios internally.
So this was from quite a few yearsago when I was living in the Midlands
in England and I'm watching it andI'm like, wow, I have these little
Midland C quirks in my speech,
John (03:36):
Uh,
Henry G (03:37):
might be gone now.
Or they might still be there.
But I think with anyone you start out withsome X and then you build it up over time.
Right?
So like I lived 10 yearsin the Midlands of England.
And I've lived here nowfor like five years.
And so it's inevitable thatyou'll pick some things up.
John (03:50):
Yeah.
just slowly creeps into yourspeech It's like audio of it.
You eventually mimic like a
parrot.
Henry G (03:57):
Yeah.
you stop calling things,biscuits and call them cookies.
John (04:00):
No,
Henry G (04:02):
Yeah.
Well actually my, my uncle one ofmy uncles who was originally English
immigrated to Canada lives inVancouver and his wife is Australian.
And so he has this kind of reallyinteresting accent, kind of a mix of,
John (04:15):
Yeah.
Henry G (04:16):
It's not really Australian.
John (04:17):
Well,
Henry G (04:17):
Well, you have a
multi accented household also.
John (04:21):
Yeah, So Catherine
is French Canadian and then
Spanish is my first language.
So it'll be interesting to see what thishousehold transforms into over time.
what are you drinking?
Henry G (04:33):
I am drinking lady grey tea.
John (04:37):
What is it with gray teas, as
opposed to like black teas, green teas?
Henry G (04:41):
It is a black tea, but it's
like a, you know, a little gray tea
it's like tea with bug of my flavoring.
And then the lady gray is related to that.
And it's with orange flavoringinstead of the bug of my.
John (04:53):
Henry.
So it's funny because you are oneof the first people to actually take
advantage of the self-serve websitefor the podcast book time, come in and
be like, yo, I got a story to tell.
I want to tell it.
And I was shocked because, Hey, thatnever happened before you did it.
And it'd be as like, hold on.
I know this guy, what,it was serendipitous.
(05:16):
Put a huge smile on my.
face.
it felt like a lightning bolt oflike, yes, things are working.
People are listening.
like all this automated self-servicebackend stuff that I pay money
into is finally paying off.
Henry G (05:29):
Yeah.
I heard about your podcast, obviouslywe had met, but I didn't know you did
a podcast until Chris Barasa told me.
John (05:36):
Shout out to.
Henry G (05:37):
yeah.
So I was like, oh cool.
I should get in touch withthis guy and we can talk.
John (05:42):
the industry, small,
we have mutual friends.
You guys are actually family, right?
Like I was just having this
Henry G (05:48):
Yeah.
John (05:49):
my wife.
Like I said, hold on our Chris and Henry.
Brother-in-law like,
Henry G (05:53):
Yeah.
is my brother-in-law.
John (05:55):
Chris is your brother-in-law.
because your wife is his sister-in-law.
also men, congratulations onfatherhood in the pandemic.
I think this is the best time tobe bringing life into this world.
How's that been treating you?
Henry G (06:08):
it's been really good and
it's certainly habits, challenges say,
say more about it being the best time.
John (06:14):
what tends to happen
in the states anyway.
Right?
I'd have to ask you howit is in Europe, but.
Most companies that I think Microsofthas better than most, but most companies
have very poor paternal maternity
leave and so for fathers tryingto get in and trying to help
offload some of this craziness.
There's not a lot of opportunity if you'rekind of bouncing back and forth between
(06:37):
an office and putting in commute times.
Henry G (06:39):
Right, right.
John (06:40):
to be at home to tag team and
offload divvy up the work and shifts
and people having to work and feed andchange and sleep and things like this.
Henry G (06:51):
yeah, I see what you're saying.
And I agree.
And Microsoft have for a fatheror a non giving birth partner,
you get three months in total.
I took mine into chunks.
So that was good.
I think it's still kind of on thelow side by European standards,
John (07:06):
Absolutely.
It is.
Henry G (07:07):
yeah, I mean, it's certainly
very fortunate to feel very fortunate, you
know, especially given the, some peopledidn't get any which is kinda crazy.
Cause it's really like, I don't evenknow how you, could survive without that.
You would have to hire Iguess we'll have family who
John (07:19):
Yeah.
I think that's the only thing, right.
Is having family that can chip inbecause childcare is super expensive
and, at least Washington statehas started hitting my paycheck for
some type of paternity benefits,which I was more than happy to pay.
And I wonder if that factors in,at all, is that even a thing for
Henry G (07:40):
So I'm no expert on it, but I
believe that it's beneficial if you don't
work for a company that has that benefit.
I think so a company like Microsoft,where they have a benefit that
already exceeds the state benefit,I think they say that they, they're
compliant, we still pay for it.
. who knows a ton about this as Chris?
cause he, spent a lot of time,I think, discussing it with
(08:01):
the HR who he rates very highly.
John (08:04):
that's a good thing, right.
Is as the industry matures and westart hitting those times where,
Hey, we're actually now becomingparents and things like this,
like these questions now matter.
And before companies got away withnot having to think hard about it,
because we were all young or, youknow, the generation before us,
wasn't even a thing that they had toput out there to lower talents over.
(08:25):
And now it very much is.
Henry G (08:27):
Yeah.
I was thinking aboutthat actually yesterday.
Because I've been in theindustry like 12 years, I think.
And then I remember even when I was kindof coming into the industry at that time,
everyone was saying like, oh, you know,the games workforce is kind of growing up.
Right.
Like the pay that people are havingkids and families and so forth.
John (08:42):
we can't give the
unlimited hours we used to give.
Henry G (08:46):
Right, right.
I'd be really curious if there'sbeen any research or studies on like
the composition of the workforce.
Right.
Is it just like still people coming in?
I think I've heard you say on thepodcast before about like, you know,
it's kinda hard stay in the industry.
Right.
It becomes much harder get older tokind of stay in and not move out.
John (09:03):
Yeah, it's a thing.
There's a few different surveysover the past few years, I think GDC
has like a state of the industry.
That's pretty decent aboutreporting the numbers.
And I think three or four years ago, theaverage of people in and people leaving
and people lasting till like yearsand 10 years kind of kept dwindling.
Right?
As soon as you kind of step out and yousee how much different it can be outside
(09:26):
of the games industry, it's hard for meto look outside of the pandemic in its
current state and see how many people.
Turned around to be like, whoa,I love having time at home.
And then look how much betterlife or quality of life is when
I get to be more present or don'thave to balance a ton of things.
(09:47):
And then how much time I get back?
Henry G (09:49):
Yeah, for sure.
Yeah.
And like, I think someone was asking methe other day, like, because my position
is like, I would like to primarily workfrom home indefinitely now, you know, and
I never thought that I would be that way.
But I I had a pretty badcommute before the pandemic.
John (10:02):
How long was it?
Henry G (10:03):
were in Fremont and we commuting
out to Redmond town center, so dependent.
Right.
John (10:08):
40 minutes.
Okay.
Henry G (10:09):
20 minutes to
40 to sometimes an hour
John (10:12):
Anatole.
Henry G (10:13):
Anatole.
Yeah.
I think in the summer it was quitenice because I could cycle, but then
that would take like an hour and ahalf, even if I took the cycle bus
John (10:20):
That's a nice,
that's a nice bike ride.
Henry G (10:22):
yeah, it is a nice rate cause
we were right on the boat Gilman trail.
So he could just jump on and thenkind of go all the way over five 20
right down to Redmond town center.
But then coming back, there's a,there's a vicious hill recycling off
it and I'd be like, I get to do this.
I don't have to do this.
I chose to do this.
So trying to like,
John (10:40):
It's all about perspective, man.
Keep keeping me, keeping thetickets healthy, trying to get
into those retirement years.
Henry G (10:46):
Right.
Well, and especially, yeah.
You know, with with a little aboutminutes, it makes you think like,
wow, when she's 40 will be cool.
If I was still around,I have to be pretty old.
John (10:59):
I'm with you on that, right.
Is trying to last into to see whatis the pros and cons of kids younger
or later in life having you, haven'tgiven yourself a chance to enjoy
your younger years your earlier years
Henry G (11:14):
Yeah.
John (11:14):
to come out on this end now and be
able to kind of mentor and give back with
all of your experience which is vast.
Because last I saw my friend thatI saw you at that principal level
principal software architect level,and I think you are the first
software architect on the podcast.
So congratulations and welcome.
Henry G (11:35):
Well, thank you.
Yeah.
and it's interesting that you mentionedthe title because it's kind of, yeah,
I don't think I really like necessarilylegit qualify as an architect.
But you know, and also I guessthat means different things.
So basically we kind of had a reorginternally and I ended up with that title,
but it didn't really change what I do.
(11:56):
There's maybe kind of brings uson smoothly for the topic of what
is, what is it exactly that I do?
John (12:01):
Yeah, man.
What the heck are you doing today?
I know you're at Microsoft.
Are you at mojo?
Ang studios.
Henry G (12:08):
I am an emergency CDIs.
Yes.
And so, yeah, I'm, despite my title,ostensibly being architects, I think
it would be more accurately classifiedas a software engineering lead
John (12:18):
Okay.
Henry G (12:19):
knowledge.
Um,
John (12:21):
Right?
I've always wondered like how muchdifferent is architect from pure
engineering, but it seems like they cankind of overlap pretty, pretty heavily.
Henry G (12:30):
yeah.
Well, there's a meetup thatI attend called the Seattle
software crafters meet up.
They have some really good speakers.
They're not games on the street,but they just have some really cool
because and so I'm kind of enlistsort of like, you know, agile bubble.
We all think that Tetra element is agood idea and et cetera, et cetera.
But that was a thread on the slackabout, is the architect role, anti agile.
John (12:52):
Oh,
Henry G (12:53):
And consensus was generally, Yes.
Because I don't know, likeI think, it really depends.
Right.
Cause it can be used in so manydifferent ways in different
companies apply differently.
But then the old school sense of,you know, you need someone special
to like design the system and allthe interactions between it and
then tell other people how to do it.
(13:13):
Right.
So the ivory tower architect,like I think that's like,
it's kind of a big antepartum.
I don't do that.
I don't actually knowanyone who does that.
But it's kind of like from the dayswhen it was like, you know, the
business requirements person willdetermine the requirements and then
the requirements will be converted touser stories and then the architect
will design the interactions.
(13:34):
And then the, project program managerwill take those and convert them into time
estimates and then developers will work onthe things and produce this stuff, right?
Anyway, suffice it tosay, I don't do that.
But I'm on the kind of game code side.
Yeah, my background isgameplay programming.
John (13:48):
The fun stuff, man.
Henry G (13:49):
yeah, it is the fun stuff.
Or@leastitusedtobe.dot.
John (13:55):
talk to me about how your
team is structured in that massive
live beast that is Minecraft
Henry G (14:03):
let me give you the
journey of how my team got created.
So I was on the, the gameplayteam for Minecraft and.
we had a reorganization and thegameplay team got moved to a different
location in a different country.
And so people on the gameplay teamwere needing to find something to do.
And so I had a background inwhat's major testing as well,
that was gameplay programming.
And I care a lot about thecode that I write working.
(14:26):
Right.
And being able to be shown that it works.
John (14:29):
well, isn't that like staple
of all engineers that like to work
Henry G (14:36):
It's a good point by
saying that I don't mean to imply
that people don't care about that.
But it matters to me to particularlyapply some techniques that helped me
ensure that that's the case, namelyputting tests on stuff automated tests.
so I had noticed while I wason the game play team that all
day we had a test framework.
And even though I was highly motivatedto write tests and I tried really hard, I
(14:57):
was not able to actually write any tests.
John (14:59):
even despite like
being a goal you couldn't.
Henry G (15:02):
right.
I did a DDC talk last year where I kindof go into some of the reasons for that.
but suffice it to say, we didn'thave a framework that worked for us.
John (15:12):
Well, let's plug that GDC talk.
Cause that was a pretty cool one cold.
Hold on one second.
I got
to hear
Henry G (15:18):
a terrible name.
You're going to embarrassme with the term.
John (15:21):
it.
know it's funny because when I typedit into the search bar, it was like
all these different keywords, right.
It's just like, oh, do you mean this talk?
Do you mean this talk?
Do you mean this title?
Like no.
Dammit.
Henry G (15:32):
So it was called lessons learned
in adapting the sea of thieves, automated
testing methodology to Minecraft.
John (15:40):
you know what I like
about that one is going to get
hits from all different angles.
Like if someone's searching fortalks on any of those topics,
your talk is going to come up.
So
that's like SQL edits mastery.
Henry G (15:51):
Yeah.
That was completely accidental.
They're basically like at the time thatI was submitting the pitch I was like, I
wasn't actually really sure what the wholestructure of the talk was going to be.
You know, like I said, like, this is theoutline, this is what I want to convey,
but I haven't like prepared the talk.
Which actually I learned as if itwas a pro GDC tip do not wait for
them to confirm that they want youto speak before you start preparing
(16:13):
the talk as if they're gonna say yes.
John (16:16):
Yeah, plan for the good news.
I definitely remember going upto the deadline at the end of
2020, like it was out of no end ofthe year or something like that.
And I was filling out that long, long,long form trying to get all the details
in and maximizing the character limits oreven having to trim out some stuff just
(16:38):
to come in under the character limits.
Henry G (16:40):
Yeah.
in putting the talk together,they were very nice to me and
they let me have a week extra.
Because
John (16:44):
wow.
Henry G (16:45):
had forgotten was going to happen
was that I was going to have a baby.
John (16:48):
Forgot.
Henry G (16:49):
it was like in between when
I pitched the talk and when they said
show we'd like the talk I'd had a baby.
So I have some stuff.
it was waived.
Cause I actually, from my talkwhere I was basically saying,
here's how you avoid crunching.
I actually had to crunch to finish thetalk because I was a spit, you know,
it was busy during the day with grace.
And you know, I just would stay up tillmidnight, some days too, to just have time
(17:11):
to work on it, which I don't normally do.
I normally am very against that, butit was just, it happened to work out.
That was the only time I have.
So it was a slight irony.
John (17:18):
There is man, but you know,
there is a greater good in there is, is
sharing this piece with the industry.
myself am very interested in.
This coming to games.
the little bit of graduatecourses I took for engineering.
It's a staple thing.
any code you write any framework,any system, write a unit
test for it, like one-to-one.
(17:40):
And that way as the, your code basegrows, the test scroll and, and things
are kind of like stable and keepingeach other in check for the most part.
But from what I've seen or realized istesting is a complete automated testing.
Let's be specific, right?
Automated testing is just now reallygetting a foothold in the industry.
(18:00):
But I dunno, is that, isthat what you've seen?
Henry G (18:02):
There's a ton of interest.
But not many people are reallydoing it or if they are, they aren't
talking a ton about it, or they'rekind of taking the sort of very
high level automation approach.
while I cover in the talk there'sthis thing where like, anytime that we
sit down and we're like, okay, I wantto write automated tests for a game.
How might I do that?
Like we always think about ourexperience manually testing the game.
John (18:25):
Yeah.
And then try to write like a bot to do
the manual testing.
Henry G (18:29):
Like, oh, maybe I could do
an automated play through, or maybe
I could like, load into a world andthen I could like walk a bit and then
I could like equip something and do a
thing.
the problem is it turns out that's abig anti Putin in automated testing
because it's extremely expensive torun an extremely flaky flaky meaning
that it's, may pass or it may fail.
(18:50):
So it's very hard to trust it.
They talk about the test pyramid.
and the idea of the pyramid is, andpeople interpret it differently, but
the main idea is that you know, soit's like a pyramid with layers in it.
And up at the top, you've got likeyour kind of high-level tests, like
we just were talking about, and thendown at the bottom, you've got your
low level tests, like I call a functionand I check that it returned the right.
John (19:10):
yeah.
Henry G (19:10):
And the idea is that the higher
up the pyramid you go, the more expensive
and less reliable those tests become.
But the key message of the pyramidis you do need some things at
each of those layers, right?
That's actually a mistake that we madeon CFEs was that we kind of over-indexed
on the lower layers of the perimeterand kind of forgot about the top part,
because that was the part where we had somuch pain on the previous project, like
(19:31):
trying to write tests for that top part.
So we're like, okay, if that'srubbish, get it out of here, but
you do need some, but then youjust have to acknowledge that.
If you're going to over-index anyway,it's better to do that than the
top, which has been most people go.
John (19:42):
but a bigger part of the pyramid.
It makes sense to
Henry G (19:44):
yeah.
And I see what we depicted as.
For games purposes is like, weput like this cloud on top of the
pyramid that is like manual testing.
John (19:52):
okay.
Henry G (19:53):
But so really you've got like
the tiny cloud and then the pyramid.
Right.
But then what we have usually is theice cream cone, which is the upside down
pyramid with a massive cloud on top.
John (20:02):
Oh, love that imagery, fruits,
all the reasons, so the massive cloud
is the manual testing and that'skind of the majority of your testing,
right?
Henry G (20:12):
and it's so interesting, right.
Because I was a gameplay programmerand it never occurred to me that,
that wasn't how you would test things.
Right?
Like obviously we will send itto manual tests and they will
test it and tell us if it works,
John (20:25):
Yeah,
Henry G (20:25):
So it's kind of like a mindset
shift when you start thinking, oh,
well actually there's a ton of thingsthat actually I could write a test for.
Then I'm far more qualifiedto write a test for it than
someone who hasn't seen the code.
John (20:36):
in a recent interview I had
with James Cain, who comes from a QA
background, is this disconnect between QAdepartments, conversations with engineers.
And there seemed to be kind of a criticalmiddle piece of understanding, Right.
Like if the QA kind of had more insightinto how the code was written or what
(20:58):
systems are talking to, what that theycan bring the engineer back more useful
information And vice versa, right?
Like if the engineer could hook up the QAteam with more insight into what code is
doing and what it's talking to, that itwould make their life a bit easier too.
so, it's interesting that you say thatit's like, you're more qualified as
we all are whoever's building anythingwrite or build tests or smoke tests or
(21:23):
content that will help you find if asystem's working or not, or doing what.
Henry G (21:28):
Right.
we have a lot of challengeswith games specifically, right.
Especially in, cause so much behavioris driven from content which is a
problem that I don't think many otherlike software testing enterprises have.
John (21:39):
I would agree.
the software tends to bebuilt, to do very things.
Well,
and then that's all thatever has to worry about
Henry G (21:49):
Yeah, well,
you know, it can be, you know, likeit's, it is very common to end up with
Lena, like an architecturally soundseparation of things, you know, wherever
you go in the software industry, butit's kind of, if you decide that you
want to do that, it's kind of easierif you have few kind of consent.
So it doesn't mean that youcan't test those things.
It just means that you need like adifferent capability in your testing
framework to be able to test those things.
(22:11):
So for example is a thingthat they call asset audits.
And it's it's built on top of the unreallike built in testing framework where
you can kind of say, Hey, here's a pieceof code and I want to run this against,
you know, like generate me a test casefor, you know, these, these entries.
And so you can then just like, look at adirectory and say, you know, everything
that's in this directory, it shouldhave but this Tesco should run with it.
(22:36):
So one of the first things they wrote waslike like a mesh complexity check, right?
So to avoid like the millionPolly button problem.
So basically, you know, it justat the asset and says like for its
size, is it reasonably, is it onthe tree reasonably complicated?
John (22:52):
yeah.
Like how many firsts or whatever.
Henry G (22:55):
Right.
And so basically when you have asystem where can author a test like
that, and then you can run it againstall of your assets you know, of a
particular class or particular type,or that are in a certain location.
It gives you access nowto validate those assets.
And if you can validate those assets,then you, if you didn't do that, let's
take the example of the, million polyfloor panel or button or something.
John (23:15):
the memory bomb.
Henry G (23:16):
Right.
where would you find that?
And you'd find it because some unfortunatemanual tester has been trying to
do a play through and do their job.
And then they have encountered a placewhere like, it goes to like one FPS and
then they log a bug, but now you haveto to get the bug to someone and they
have to try and go there and see it.
And maybe on the same hardware,maybe it was on a console.
And so you have to go get the build ontoa console, and then I'm like, oh, okay.
(23:38):
And then you may be going tolook at the assets and finally
you realize what it was.
Right.
Whereas you could have just beforethe artist ever checked in that asset
said, Hey, don't check in this asset.
It's too complex.
John (23:47):
absolutely it in the
bud, as they say, Right.
Like,
Henry G (23:50):
Right.
it's really all about foster feedback.
Which actually reminds me, I was talkingto someone today about you know, how, how
to help empower teams to kind of own theirown quality, which is really what I do.
And we were talking about people,not always knowing what they want.
Oh, maybe not alwaysknowing what they need.
Right.
John (24:05):
absolutely.
Henry G (24:06):
the classic example
is like Henry Ford, right.
And if you ask people what theywanted, they just said faster horses,
John (24:11):
Yeah.
They
would have never been an.
Henry G (24:13):
Right, exactly.
And so in the case of testingthis has happened right?
To me, this is a real thing.
If you go to someone you say, how couldI improve your, testing experience?
They'll say something like, youknow, oh, give me a manual, test
that to come on, like sit next tomy desk and test my stuff all day.
John (24:26):
Yeah,
Henry G (24:27):
Right.
And that's what I'masking for faster horses.
Right?
well, how about instead, like giveyou a test framework and then you
can write a test that we can runmillions of times a day before
anyone checks in any code or assets.
that be better?
people may not evenknow the possibilities.
John (24:42):
and that's, kind of
where we find ourselves.
Right?
We're like live games thatmakes total sense, live games
are updating all the time.
Right?
Like they need to help alleviate thesebugs that can come from anywhere.
don't think that smallerteams, don't even consider it.
Right.
They say, Hey, we'll outsource it.
Or we'll come back to this after the fact.
Right.
We just kinda gotta get this game out and,see the immediate value in taking the time
(25:05):
to build out an automated testing for.
Henry G (25:08):
it's a really interesting
point though, about doing things
that you think will speed thingsup in the short term, Because that
also doesn't always even work.
I'm thinking about programmingteam that I worked with that was
like banned from communicatingwith the designers and artists.
John (25:23):
when did that happen?
Henry G (25:24):
So I was at com, which is a
company that doesn't exist anymore.
And this is probably the reason why.
John (25:30):
was this when you were
working on Disney universe?
Henry G (25:32):
Yes.
Yeah.
So we did a lot of work for hire.
And so we, they, we had likedifferent programming teams and
it was interesting cause like eachproject team had their own completely
different culture for the most part.
So on the Disney team, you know, we hada certain culture and then on the team
that was working on this other project,they had slightly different goals.
but it was like, they, werereally trying to get stuff done.
they were a bit behind and theyreally wanted to improve things.
(25:52):
And so for some reason I found thisout from talking to a friend of mine
who worked on that programming team.
And he was like saying,oh, we have this problem.
I was like, why wouldn'tyou ask the designer?
They're like, oh, we can notallow you to talk to them.
don't quote me on this, what I hadheard was that it was because, they
perceived that like the bottleneck wasthe programming team or the program
was, was so important that theyneeded to like avoid all interruption.
(26:13):
Right.
They would just sit and code and produce
John (26:15):
Well, on a spreadsheet, your
burn rate is twice or three times
that of a lowly designer's burn.
Right,
Henry G (26:21):
right.
right.
And so it's like, okay,I know what we'll do.
we'll ban artists and designers fromtalking to the programmers because
the program was a busy and it'slike, that's not how software works.
John (26:30):
Especially not games, man.
Henry G (26:32):
Right.
But you know, I think it was maybea reaction to the situation that
they were in, you know, that's
John (26:38):
Yeah.
Henry G (26:38):
you know, we all do the best that
we can given what we know at the time.
Right.
But.
You know, looking at it now, it'squite easy to say, wow, if things
are late, the last thing you wantto do is like reduce collaboration,
John (26:49):
Absolutely.
Henry G (26:50):
I guess I mentioned it
because it was on this theme of
doing things that are easy plus
is really solving the problem.
Right.
It's easy just to say, don't talk tothose guys, but it's harder to say, oh,
is the communication not quite working?
How can we tweak it?
Like, are you communicatingthe wrong things?
that one kind of decision ledto like this whole cascade
of really terrible practices.
So there was like one designer whowas, a really good programmer and he,
(27:13):
built school, the stuff that the designteam needed in Lua, instead of having
the programmers build it, like theywould have liked to if they had known.
And so I w I was actually draftedthen to help as a designer
on that team towards the end.
And so it was stuff like, youknow, you get an email coming out.
The design of saying, oh, Hey, I updatedthis script, but everyone depends
on, well, it's just like nightmare.
(27:33):
It's like so much unnecessary workwas generated by this shortsighted
attempt to improve things.
And so that's what I'm reallyinterested in, like the, the whole flow.
Right.
And we can talk more about it, but likethat's the kind of the micro view, right?
Of like, how is automated testing goingto help me as an individual developer.
But there's also, which is veryimportant when you're thinking about
(27:53):
games as a service is like, whatdoes the whole delivery look like?
Right.
Like what does it take to get code out?
We'll get assets out.
And then you can start applying sortof lean principles to that and saying,
okay, well, actually it doesn't matterto me if like I have 50 John Diaz's and
they're all like burning at max capacity.
(28:14):
If my bottleneck is, alocalization test or, and I only
have one of them or something.
John (28:19):
yeah.
Where is that bottleneckand how do you loosen it up?
Henry G (28:21):
Right.
And often it's in the testing.
And it's also an economics thing, right?
Because I worked on games where we burnthem onto a desk, only one game we burned
onto disc and we didn't do any updates.
And that was it.
Then after that, it wasall like DLC and stuff.
Right.
And that was amazing.
It was like, we never haveto worry about this again.
And in that environment, it makessense to work in the style of like,
build everything as fast as you can.
(28:42):
And then set aside a few monthsto like hammer on it and find
John (28:45):
Yup.
Henry G (28:45):
and fix them just enough to get
it out the door and then you're done.
But if you're having to, ifyou want to release every week,
then that no longer works.
And it also is incredibly expensive.
John (28:54):
Oh, yeah.
in practice, right?
It's like, Hey, we're99% ready, ready to ship.
Ready to launch like, oh no, we foundsomething, stop everything, pull it all
back, run through the same testing, right.
From beginning to end and rinse repeat.
Right.
Versus kind of being able to be like, likeyou said, it earlier, at its most basic
(29:16):
piece, fix that, you know, everythingelse is solid or green and ready.
You can kind of release thator update those sections
Henry G (29:24):
Yeah.
John (29:25):
you can hold off a section
of an update, push it out a
week or something like that.
Henry G (29:29):
Yeah, and I think you're right.
And it all comes back tofaster feedback, right?
John (29:33):
Yup.
Henry G (29:33):
that's what helps in
every case, like getting feedback
faster will always be beneficial.
And, you know, earlier we were talkingabout people not knowing what they need.
So if I go to someone and theysay, oh, you need a manual
testers come and work with me.
If I could then say, well, youknow, that's not super effective.
tell me, what are you tryingto achieve by having that?
You know, don't tell me the solution,tell me what your problem is.
And then they might say somethinglike, oh, well, my problem is they
(29:55):
test it overnight and it takes me aday to find out if there's something
wrong with it, I'm like, cool.
Okay.
I can work with that.
Right.
Because I have othersolutions to that problem.
don't anchor it by focusingon the solution is more manual
testing or close to manual tests.
That could be any number of solutions,up to, and including like using your
language feature, for example, to make it.
So it's impossible to makea certain type of book
John (30:16):
I have to ask, right?
I don't get to ask this often becauseyou're getting, you're one of a
handful of engineers on the show.
If not one of the first two, what languageor languages do you primarily work in
Henry G (30:28):
C plus possible.
John (30:29):
the holy grail when?
Henry G (30:30):
Yeah.
And when I was at tools programmer, or,kind of tool sites stuff, mostly C shop.
John (30:35):
Yup.
That's the pattern that I see.
Henry G (30:36):
Yeah.
John (30:37):
you a fan of either or they're
both good for what they specifically do?
Henry G (30:41):
I used to be much
more of a C plus plus fan.
I think now, especially with thelow-fee additions, most languages
are sort of merging together.
Like they will haveroughly similar features.
So I'm kind of more interested nowin like sort of language, like types
of language, you know, like languagesthat are oriented around functional
programming, for example, that's
something that I know very littleabout and I'm interested in.
(31:03):
yeah.
Yeah.
I
John (31:04):
functional programming up.
Henry G (31:06):
C plus plus is, is it's,
you know, I think it's, it's
going to be around for a while.
Right.
Cause it's, it's a good balance oflanguage features combined with,
uh,
John (31:14):
games, man.
I mean, I
don't know
a single big game that isnot written in C plus plus.
Right.
Just at allows you to getas low level as needed.
When, when it's not kind ofan embedded language, you
Henry G (31:24):
yeah, yeah.
I'm going to, I guess that's like,you know, obviously a unity right.
Is seeking help.
And so it really
depends on the kind of game you're making.
John (31:32):
when I look at unity and
everything is written in C sharp,
I always look at that as scripting.
I don't know why.
I don't know why, because it's rarethat you actually seeing people modify
kind of like low level code and they'rereally kind of just adding on components
or custom things to talk to other
Henry G (31:50):
Yeah.
Interesting.
it's curious, I don't know wherethe line is between scripting.
I mean, I know technically, you know,at the language level, some languages
have coal scripting languages, youknow, cause they might be or whatever.
I guess the other thing that makesme think of is probably a script
will be language of the future.
Right?
Like everything is going JavaScript.
John (32:09):
first round that
university, was like, learn Java.
This is the future.
Right.
Every, everything is going to be online.
And, and I was like,screw that, not listening.
And then Hey games, Cplus plus like, Yeah.
super plus way better than Java.
And all comes full circle becauseJava script is everywhere.
Everything has like a
Henry G (32:28):
Yeah.
John (32:29):
version or a Python version.
Henry G (32:30):
Yeah.
And I think if you, if you werelooking today, what, depending
on what your goal is, right.
You know, things like Lua,obviously, you know, the goal
would be very lightweight, right?
They're kind of cheap to execute,but I think Java script gives you.
If you were doing like molding,for example, like adding mode
support, then you might verystrongly look at Java script
because that's what most people know
John (32:50):
yeah.
Henry G (32:51):
the language of the web.
So
and it's also going to be cheaper tohire a JavaScript program, as I imagined,
John (32:56):
Hmm.
Interesting.
Henry G (32:56):
like good luck finding a C
plus plus programmer 10 years from now.
I mean, unless, I guess it's kind ofbig in what is it like the AI and stuff
then image processing?
terms of language selection
I went C plus plus I chose my,university course specifically because
they were one of the few that taughtC plus plus, and I knew enough, even
at that point to know that, you know,you would need C plus plus to get a job
(33:19):
as a programmer in the games industry.
John (33:20):
you were set on going to
university to study to get into games.
Henry G (33:26):
Right?
Yeah.
Because it was kind ofa career change for me.
John (33:29):
Cause we remind me
where you going into law
Henry G (33:32):
yeah, I had fallen
into the family business.
John (33:35):
It's not a bad
business.
Henry G (33:36):
I didn't really
know what I wanted to do.
I wanted to be a fighter pilot originally.
Um,
John (33:42):
see what?
That's just the coolest job,
Henry G (33:44):
yeah.
But I realized that what I actuallywanted to do was fly the planes.
But I was in, like, I was in theair cadets and I got a flying
scholarship where they paidfor half of my private license.
John (33:53):
Do you have your pilot's
license out of curiosity?
Henry G (33:55):
I have a pilot's license.
It expired many years ago.
But I am told that it's notso tough to reactivate, but
I would need some training.
yeah, we have a friend who has oneof the huge, like, oh yeah, you
go to , which is like the placewhere they do that or whatever.
But honestly, like, it was weird becauselike, I lights, with many things I
kind of enjoyed the the training morethan actually having the license.
(34:17):
Like once I got it, I was like, oh, wow.
I guess I could fly around a bit.
Like, that seems kind of boring.
Right?
It's like I enjoy learning aspectsand the training more than I did
actually having the qualification.
John (34:28):
tell me about what went through
your mind, jumping to game programming.
Henry G (34:33):
So, you know, like flying was
my, my first love and then, it didn't
really work out and with hindsight that'sgood because, you know, I wouldn't have
really wanted to kill people and so forth.
John (34:41):
That's a big one, especially
Henry G (34:43):
yeah, right.
I just wanted to play the coolplanes that Sam, but he kind of
left me not knowing what to do.
So I had a job at Lego land.
I was like running the rides andstuff over the first time, Legoland
Windsor in England, the firsttime they opened over Christmas.
But it really, it was justlike, I didn't know what to do.
And I kind of was not reallyvery engaged with my academics.
And so I guess I ended upjust kind of falling into
(35:04):
working for my mom's law firm.
Just like a tiny, tiny little firm.
John (35:09):
It's like the default case, right?
Like if you don't say where, what youwant to do, where are you going to go?
You're going to fall into the family
Henry G (35:16):
yeah.
Yeah, I guess I just cause, youknow, it's like, well, if you're
not doing anything, come and help.
John (35:20):
Sure, sure.
Hey, we'll put you to work,
Henry G (35:23):
Yeah, I started that just making
the tea and was photocopying and stuff.
And ended up getting to the point whereI was doing the kind of paralegal
aspect of the property transactions.
John (35:33):
Do you find that there's
a big shift in, I guess what
tea drinking is over in the UK?
is distinct a big coffee drinking country.
Is that like, is there just aneven split between tea or coffee?
Henry G (35:48):
I think, I think like
our culture has changed a lot, but
certainly back then, which was like20 years ago, whatever it was still
kind of English tea culture where,you know, you just expect of the
office that you would just be drinkingtea constantly throughout the day.
Right.
John (36:01):
For you, man.
Henry G (36:03):
so, you know, if you
have someone there who's going to
bring you to you on a tray, know,then you can take advantage of it.
John (36:10):
It's just nice to like, you see
the tray coming out on little casts
and it's just, it's just nice to take
that
Henry G (36:17):
Yeah.
Like I knew everyone was mugs thatthey had, you know, like I knew poos
mug was whose and what they like.
cause in that at the timecoffee meant instant coffee.
John (36:26):
oh,
Henry G (36:27):
We weren't really
into having coffee machines.
Right.
That would be Elvis.
I fancy.
So, and even still now I think, you know,most coffee made at home would be instant.
John (36:36):
interesting.
Okay.
So I could see how that wouldlead to, Hey tea is just a
better drink compared to instant.
coffee.
Henry G (36:43):
English comedian Dave Goldman
he is famous for doing these comedyshows where he does it in front
of a PowerPoint presentation.
yeah.
And so he has one about how coffees risefrom a crappy cheap drink to an expensive,
nice drink tea, which was a nice cheapdrink, became a crappy expensive drink.
John (37:02):
I got to watch
some more of this stuff.
Henry G (37:04):
Have seen him
John (37:06):
where
Henry G (37:07):
Birmingham.
John (37:08):
I wasn't,
Henry G (37:08):
Well, it's pretty good.
I don't go to a lot of shows and things,so it was, it was unusual for me, I think.
I think my friend had a spare ticket.
John (37:16):
It's nice to have a circle of
friends that will help you get out of
your comfort zone or do things that youwouldn't do if left on your own devices.
Henry G (37:24):
Yeah.
And I'm very much an introvert.
So if I'm left to my own devices, I'mjust going to stay home and play games.
John (37:29):
And code.
we're going to jump all overthe place because why not?
We were talking about your university
Henry G (37:35):
Oh yeah.
we had talked about choosing thecourse because of the language.
John (37:38):
Yeah.
yeah, yeah,
Henry G (37:40):
When I had first had the
opportunity to go to university,
I guess it was all like, you know,you could study history or geography
or English or physics or whatever.
And it was like really hard to see likehow that would map to what you would do.
John (37:52):
yeah.
Henry G (37:52):
so a few years later, I guess
that was about, 24 or something.
By that time they had sort of come outwith like the more vocational degrees,
which were like tailored to a career.
John (38:01):
Yeah to a specific tray
that you can instantly see
what you would be end up doing.
Henry G (38:06):
the side effect of
that was that there was a ton
of them on the market, right?
Like they were like 20 gamescourses all across the country.
And
John (38:13):
Wow.
Henry G (38:14):
known universities
were really pushing them heavily
to kind of attract people.
so yeah, there, there was, it washard to kind of choose, but I, I
went with my course because it waswas computer games, programming
bachelor of science rather than a BA.
it was just programming it was C plusplus for the most part I was kind of
really concerned actually about thoseones, which were like a mix of everything.
(38:34):
you'll do one module of like gamedesign and one module of art and 3d
modeling and one module of scripting.
And it's like, cause what doesthat translate into other job?
You know, like you've done a littleof everything, but not enough to
be an awesome modeler, not enoughto be an awesome programmer.
John (38:49):
it feels like you would
have to find something to do
after you get other than rice.
There's kind of like a Idunno, certificate level in
each that you'd have to add
Henry G (38:57):
Yeah.
or maybe you would go into, test orproduction and try and work your way.
that way.
John (39:02):
which a lot of people
Henry G (39:03):
Yeah.
Yeah.
But which you could probably do withoutit degree, maybe certainly at the
time you probably could still have.
John (39:09):
would love to understand it felt
like to discover that there was schools
that would teach you how to make games.
Because that's kind of whereI landed myself as well.
Right.
And like, holy cow, I was readinga magazine and what a great place
to advertise gaming schools.
Right.
Oh my gosh.
And it's accessible and it's, kind ofwhere I have family and I could stay,
(39:30):
but before then, nobody that I knewat all was talking about this as a
potential career or a way to make money.
And it just felt so far away.
Right.
My image of a developer was a personin Japan working for Nintendo.
Or even when I think about computergames, when you grow up in the east coast
(39:54):
of the Northeast, you just imagine thatSilicon valley or California, or Texas
are like on another continent, right?
Like no way near
accessible.
Henry G (40:03):
Yeah.
Like it's really hard to kind of seehow would you get from here to the.
John (40:07):
don't think that people
listening to this today can appreciate
the world that it was back then.
Right?
Like, Hey, we're all connected by the.
internet.
Right.
And we can all talk to you.
Yeah.
like that you can interface with us andhave a conversation on a discord Or via
Twitter and get direct insight or feedback
Henry G (40:28):
Yeah.
Or it can go on YouTubeand see like, you know,
John (40:31):
oh my gosh.
Henry G (40:32):
of hours of
like amazing education.
John (40:34):
love you too.
I joke that it's what thepromise of the matrix was, right?
Like, Hey, you could justdownload into your brain directly
the program to be a pilotor learn how to shoot guns.
It's as close as we're going toget for the immediate future.
Right.
Henry G (40:49):
Yeah.
John (40:50):
it's all on YouTube.
You just gotta put the time into,
Henry G (40:53):
Right.
Yeah.
If there's something thatyou want to learn, how to do,
you can, you can find out.
John (40:56):
I'm curious when you saw that,
Hey, there's universities teaching how
to program for games and you're like,oh, that's exactly what I want to do.
I'm going to go sign up for that.
Henry G (41:03):
So the context of it
was that like I had, I had been
doing this paralegal thing I hadat a few other companies and I
really didn't like it that much.
Like it was so boring and repetitive,
It was basically, you know, you wouldprocess the same paperwork over and
over again on the only interestingbit was like, occasionally there
would be some covenant or somethingon the land that we would then go
(41:24):
and research about or whatever.
Anyway, I was like, screw this, I'm done.
I quit my job.
And then I was like, oh, now I needto figure out something else to do.
John (41:32):
How, how is that telling
your parents that you're quitting
Henry G (41:35):
I actually wasn't on
good terms with them at the time.
So I did not tell them.
Yeah, it was easy.
Yeah.
We were
John (41:41):
didn't show up,
Henry G (41:43):
about time
John (41:44):
you ghosted your parents on the job
Henry G (41:46):
basically.
Uh, yeah.
John (41:48):
have hurt, you know, like
yo where's the
T
Henry G (41:50):
I had made some other life
choices that were not approved of.
So we were not reallyspeaking at the time.
John (41:55):
as we do in our youth,
we gotta find ourselves,
right.
When, usually it's like by pushingin the opposite direction of
where our parents want us to go
Henry G (42:03):
Right, right.
And maybe that was tied up init as well, for some extent.
But suffice it to say, I was like,Hey, if I would end up, I want
to pursue my dreams, you know?
So I was like, I want to go to art school.
So as, as I sit here as aprogrammer saying, that sounds
kinda silly, but it was like, this
John (42:18):
with the unicorn.
Henry G (42:19):
yeah, this is what I want to do.
But then I was like, I'd neverdone any like classes, like I had
wanted to, but like my dad hadbeen like, no, you can't do that.
You have to do somethingthat like more productive.
Cause you know, we got like threeoptions for our, high school I
guess would be the equivalent.
But we had a lot of mandatory courses andthen you got three that you could choose.
John (42:36):
electives.
Henry G (42:37):
Yeah.
Electives.
I wanted to do music, art and drama,
John (42:41):
Wow.
All the creative ones.
Henry G (42:44):
totally shut down.
And I'm like, no, youcan't do any of those.
They're just the waste oftime, not sending you to a
fancy school to learn that.
And so I ended up doing languages instead.
I did Spanish, Latinand Greek as my choices.
John (42:55):
it crazy to say that learning a
spoken language is similar to learning
a computer programming language?
Is there anything that carries over there?
Henry G (43:03):
it's not completely unrelated.
I will say a lot of like learning,to program in quotes is not
so much the language as likehow to, how you think about.
And then the language is kind of like thatlayer, you know, it could be any language.
Right.
But it's like some sort ofconstructs beneath that.
But yeah, I guess it was kind of similarto, there were rules about how it works.
It's easier in a lot ofways than human languages.
John (43:26):
For people looking on the
outside, looking into game development
you know, they know, Hey, there'sart and art makes more sense to me.
It's visual and there's programmingand it's either kind of a binary,
like, yes, I want to do that.
Or I have a logical brain or no, I don't.
Right.
It's kind of like intimidating oreven off putting what would you
say to people about programming?
(43:47):
Because I think that's something worthdiscussing is it's not just about sitting
down in a computer and writing code.
Henry G (43:53):
I want to see in
modern development, that's
like a very minor part of it.
You know, there's all sorts of likecollaboration, like, cause you can't do
any kind of serious software on your own.
So having the skills to collaborate is
also a huge thing
I would love to see more creativepeople coding, I definitely don't
think it should be the preserveof like logical brain people.
because you know, like weknow that that type of city in
(44:16):
all forms increases success.
I think it's actually being theprogrammer who can also talk to
designers and artists those are thepeople who are the leads, those are
the people who are going to do well.
Right.
And
John (44:28):
absolutely
Henry G (44:29):
in demand,
John (44:30):
highly in demand.
Right?
Well, compensated highly recruited.
Right.
Get the emails every other month
Henry G (44:37):
Right.
I know someone who is like totallythe program a stereotype, right?
Like he just, loves to like,get in and dig into the problem
and really pull it apart.
And he's absolutely the guy thatI want, dealing with like the
crazy, crash that happens one outof 10,000 times in this one place.
Like, cause he will go in, he willtotally understand the situation
and he'll spend all the time.
It needs to dig in.
(44:57):
I would get bored by that.
And he will kind of come and he'll like,he'll know everything and they help be
able to kind of, tell you what it is,
which even in itselfthat's a really nice skill.
it takes lots ofdifferent kinds of people.
There's not just one kind of program.
And different people workon different things, right?
Some people like him might workon really deep engine stuff.
That's other people who might workmuch closer to the scripting layer or
will come up with the gameplay systemslayer or even be scripting people.
John (45:20):
yeah.
As an engineer or as an architectin your role, I'm curious, how
often do you get to interface withsome of the other disciplines?
Are you sitting mostlywith your engineering team?
Do you liaise with someone likethe PR marketing or some of the
biz dev or designers, artists?
What does That look like atMicrosoft or on Minecraft
Henry G (45:40):
so Minecraft is kind of
interesting, cause we don't really
have content like most games do, like
we don't have like,
John (45:46):
it because the players
kind of generate the content?
Henry G (45:48):
right.
But like also we don't have liketerabytes of animations and stuff.
Right.
Like a lot of that stuff was likeoriginally hard-coded you know, w
we're like in the, in the order oflike a few hundred megabytes right.
For
our belts.
John (46:00):
interesting.
Yeah.
Those damn voxels.
Henry G (46:02):
But it also, it
means those kind of few crazy
folks to liaise with, I guess.
the answer I would give you would dependgreatly on where I was in the group.
So if I was to answer you right nowtoday I would spend time talking with
my team, like who you report to me.
And like, so there's a guy that,who basically is running with
team now because he's really good.
John (46:18):
it's not like an engineering
manager or like a lead engineer.
Henry G (46:21):
Yeah, like a tech lead,
we call it basically someone who
was on the team, but he's likestepping up as the technical leader.
John (46:27):
Okay,
Henry G (46:27):
having any people
management responsibilities.
Kind of one of those people we werejust talking about actually, right.
Someone who is not just a coder, butsomeone who also has other things.
Right.
And everyone has different power actually.
I've been a people manager for a fewyears now, which I didn't think I would
ever really want to do, but I actuallyfind it super fascinating and amazing
because it's like getting to know inmore detail, like what makes people tick
and like what their particular skillsare and being able to ask them and have
(46:50):
conversations about that rather thanjust gas I think It's an overlooked piece
of the puzzle, especially in like themodern world where we're kind of heading
more towards this, like commoditization.
Basically the idea of being, we're inthe games industry because we're really
passionate people, individuals, right.
And there's like we havespark and we're humans.
I love when a team can lean into thatand all of those incredible unique
(47:13):
humans on the team, versus as youreach, you know, very large scale.
that becomes more and more economicincentive to just kind of treat
people as interchangeable pots, right?
Like program, a program or two.
And not really, I didn't want tobe harsh or dismissive of like less
practices, but especially whereit's like, know, oh, we're going
(47:36):
to outsource this entire thing.
Or we
kind of have a team, a team will comein and make this thing for us and then
leave, those kinds of things where it,like, it treats it as like a transaction.
Whereas I think you get much more benefitwhere the team is a high-performing unit
and they can kind of work on anything.
John (47:50):
that's the way, right?
Like I'm going to quote Mandalorianthat is the damn way where I've seen
a few different places that just kindof higher year-round continuously
where they're like, Hey, w w if youdon't see a role that fits what you're
looking to do, us your resume anyway.
And they kind of interview for,are you a culture fit for the
(48:11):
type of people that we look for?
it's just good to have that process.
And then you bring people on theykind of find a way to, to contribute.
the other end, like you were talking aboutis, we're looking for a crack shot, latest
Python, backend, full stack developer,and they have to know all of these things
(48:32):
or else we don't want to talk to them.
Right.
I it's I'm with you in the, future of youjust want to bring in people that have.
Problem solving mind that are interestingpeople that you can put them in a room
and they can have a conversation orbe able to kind of express an idea
or listen and help contribute to likea group cooking session of like a
Henry G (48:55):
Yeah.
And the other way of looking at it,I guess, it's that, you know, not
everyone might enjoy working that way.
Right.
Some people
might prefer working in the kindof, you know, I'm kind of a cog
and I clock in and clock out.
But it's a big enough spacethat there's room for everyone.
Right.
I don't think anyone should be kindof worried, won't be a role for them.
It just might not be at the company thatthey had really hoped it would be at
John (49:15):
that's a good way
to look at it for sure.
I think something that I wish I could havetold the younger version of me is to not
be picky and apply everywhere and talk toeverybody and try to build a relationship
with any developer where you can havea shot or a chance to build something
Henry G (49:34):
Well, I think also like
you, you kind of come to learn more.
Yourself and what motivates you?
So like, I, I know about myself nowthat I have a really hard time working
on stuff that I'm not interested in.
It's not like necessarily the besttitle, but like, say for example, if
I was to go work on database software,you know, like sure I could do the
(49:57):
same stuff that I do, you know?
Yes, I could do that, but I justwouldn't feel a passion for it.
And I know that when I don'tfeel that, then I don't do
the best job that I could do.
And then I'm, you know,think I'm not very good.
One thing I like about gamesindustry has it tends to attract
really passionate people.
John (50:15):
Yeah.
Henry G (50:15):
it's really kind of a privilege
to work with people in the games industry.
And I haven't had a ton of experienceoutside of the games industry,
but, I think it is fair to say, wetend to have, really good people.
not only because it's like, youknow, there's a limited number
of roles versus the kind of thepeople who want to get into them.
A lot of people really aspireto work in the games industry
without necessarily really understandingwhat it is or why am I suddenly did.
(50:38):
I don't think aboutwhat I was getting into.
John (50:40):
to me about that.
Like when you graduated and nowyou have some C plus plus game
programming background, and you gotyour first job, well, let's take a
step back before you even graduated.
You have something you guys talkabout or you just kind of put
me onto the terminology thatis called a sandwich degree.
Henry G (51:01):
Yes.
Yeah.
John (51:01):
Yeah.
Henry G (51:02):
and it's probably an English
thing, but it's basically normally
bachelor's degrees for three years we havean extra year of high school, basically.
this is why I was a threerather than four years.
let's say in a sandwich degree, youstudy for two years and then you
spend a year working and then youcome back and do your final year.
And for me that was, itwas so awesome to do that.
I certainly came back thatfinal year, being like, oh,
(51:23):
I ain't know C plus plus now.
Whereas like when I went in, I was like, Ireally didn't looking back, but just using
it every day on the, on the real game.
And I was super fortunate because Iworked on a project that was one year
long and I was like that from thebeginning, right through to the end.
John (51:39):
This was dead space
extraction for the wee
Henry G (51:42):
You know, and so then I was
able to say, and I worked on a project
for its whole life cycle and it wasa relatively small team and say,
look, I, I owned significant systems,like system and stuff like that.
So it was, yeah, it wasjust a ton of learning.
It was like, this is amazing.
It's still my favoriteproject I've ever worked on.
John (51:59):
gameplay programming is
the rare time where I think I can
visualize and understand some of thekey code that goes into it, right?
Like a lot of vector math and 3d space,the 2d space and applying angles and
calculations for trajectory and kindof collision detection and things that,
that I'd love for you to share a bitof your takeaways from that project
(52:23):
in terms of what you did, they inday out for people being like, okay,
programming is coding or problem solving.
I still don't get it.
Right.
Like, what were you doing at the job?
Henry G (52:34):
Yeah, that's a great question.
So I mean, a game program, areyou working on top of an engine?
Right?
So you're working on an existing codebase that offers certain abilities,
like the ability to, an actor.
And you have that, then the set, the actorto have a certain look, and then that will
load meshes and textures and stuff thathave been authored by a content creator.
and then it's in the world and then,you know, you can also then write
(52:56):
code that would like respond to Andthen, and then would then say, when I
get the input I'm going to call thisportion of that's going to make the
character move, that kind of thing.
In the context of the weapon systemon that space it kind of came to
me in the form of a spreadsheet.
It was like well did it,no, it was a design doc.
Right.
Yeah.
The engine that we had, likespreadsheets where an asset type.
(53:18):
Right.
So like, I kind of had a spreadsheetthat I made a row for each weapon.
And then the columns werelike things about the weapon.
So, you know, like its name or like theID for its name that would be localized.
what mesh it used, what soundsit had for various things,
John (53:32):
Yeah.
I'm going to challenge you, man.
Cause
Henry G (53:33):
Hmm.
John (53:33):
been in a lot of weapons
systems throughout the years.
Henry G (53:36):
Yeah.
John (53:36):
do you remember some of the
other columns on that weapon sheet?
Henry G (53:40):
obviously
damage that does, right.
How, like, if it has theprojectile, like what type it
is like, is it, is it a physics?
I had one that was aphysics protect tile, but
actually
John (53:48):
a rocket
Henry G (53:49):
it was, it's like a, it's
like a grenade launcher thing.
So you like pop it out and it bouncesaround and that explains after awhile.
So it's like, what actors shouldit create as the projectile?
Maybe some parameters.
I can't really it's a long time ago,
but then like something like, forexample, that's basically one of
them is like the line cutter things.
That's like this big blue line.
Right.
And so the underlying thing for that was alozenge in the physics system, rather than
(54:11):
a, you know, like a capsule or whatever
John (54:13):
Oh wait.
Okay.
Cause the capsule is kind of
Henry G (54:18):
capsule capsule is the it's like
a sphere, but then you pull it apart.
Yeah.
Pill.
John (54:23):
Yeah.
and so when you say a lozenge,
Henry G (54:25):
The lozenge is basically
like you pull the pill out,
but then you also pull it back.
So it's like a,
John (54:31):
yeah,
Henry G (54:31):
flat rectangle thing
with a certain, at least
that's as far as I remember.
But I remember that particularlybecause that was when I learned
about how useful debug draw is.
John (54:39):
Oh God.
Yes.
Thank you.
That's a big
one.
Henry G (54:42):
was using this thing and
I was like, it's just not working.
Like I see it, I see the protect pulsingthrough, you know, the Monster's legs, but
the legs thing fall off what's happening.
And so then I couldn't figure it out,but then I was, I was able to draw it.
And then that was when I realized thatthe lozenge I had like inverted it.
So it was like an invalid lozenge.
It was like inside out or something.
So it wasn't like matching the collision.
John (55:03):
There's
so much math and physics bugshappen because you do the
operations in reverse order.
Right.
Henry G (55:09):
yeah,
John (55:10):
having negatives and
you think like, oh yeah,
it should still do something like,
Henry G (55:13):
yeah.
John (55:14):
invalid or garbage data.
Henry G (55:16):
Yeah.
And what I've learned is thatlike, as a human I'm really
bad at like knowing that stuff.
Right.
So it's to this kind of stereotypeof a coder as someone who's
like, they are super logicaland they can work it all out.
We can't do that.
Right.
You know, like the classic thing islike, as you were reading code, you're
kind of building up this like stackof like And so that's why, like, if
someone interrupts you, it's like,oh no, I lost the lead contact.
(55:38):
Yeah.
But then like the really cool thing,which I didn't know this originally,
but the really cool thing, is therea bunch of techniques that let you
break it up into much smaller pieces?
And that's really what all
John (55:47):
Yeah,
Henry G (55:47):
programming is about is
like breaking up stuff that you
can't understand into things thatare small enough that you understand.
Because there's this other thing as well.
It's like it's always harder to debugsomething than it is to write it.
John (55:58):
absolutely.
Henry G (55:59):
if you write the most complicated
thing, you can hold in your head,
then you will be capable of debugging.
It.
John (56:05):
And you who wrote it?
Yeah.
You who wrote it will beincapable of debugging.
So imagine what tends to happen inmost of development is you end up
in someone else's code base and youhave to extend that or carry It.
forward.
And I always hear Right, The firstknee jerk reaction is like, the
time is going to take me for me tofigure this out into the bucket.
I'm better off it myself from
Henry G (56:27):
Right, right.
is interesting.
Cause it's very hardto write readable code.
It's very hard.
It's very worthwhile, but it's a lotharder than people think come it's
more than just writing comments.
John (56:37):
absolutely.
Yeah.
There's like self commentingcode, descriptive variable names,
functioning that actually saywhat the hell they're doing
Henry G (56:42):
Yeah.
John (56:43):
in.
Henry G (56:44):
Yeah.
Functions that are small.
Right.
I have a functional, that's ahundred, a hundred lines long.
It's full.
My certainly doing more than one thing.
John (56:50):
You have a vast background.
I love going back to like your earlygameplay programming days and seeing
that you can recall that stuff right.
Because it's very visual.
I think you touched on somethingsuper important for people to
realize is that programming isalso its visual outlets, right?
Like designers or anybody working ina code base will always benefit from
(57:11):
robust debugging capabilities, right.
That
Henry G (57:14):
Absolutely.
John (57:15):
you have a big hand or a
big part in helping this visual
layer to some of these systems.
Henry G (57:20):
Yeah.
you see that as programis mature in the industry.
Like you see that becomes moreand more, in their minds, they're
thinking more and more about likethe ramifications of what they write.
Cause initially you start out and you'rejust like, know if I could write this
thing and it did what it's supposed to do.
I feel like I did a good job,like, wow, that was really hard.
But then you have start thinking aboutlike, okay, but what does that mean
(57:42):
to the people who use this thing?
Did I even solve that problem?
John (57:46):
goes back to that thing that
you were talking about that makes
automated testing so powerful, right?
It's you increase the speed of thefeedback coming back to, right.
So, so
Henry G (57:56):
Yeah.
John (57:57):
as you're writing this tool or
the system that, you know, in lieu of
having the designer be like, Ooh, thatwould be helpful or extend that, or
give me a lever to expose the shape.
And let me be able to pause it halfwayand tune it and tweak it and then
press play and resume like that.
Is, how can you increase therate at which you get feedback
(58:17):
for the decisions you're making.
Henry G (58:19):
Yeah.
That's actually a reallyinteresting point actually.
so, even if I'm writing code andI'm writing tests that support
my code as I'm writing the code.
Yeah.
Thinking then again about like thepeople who use this system, how are
they going to validate their changes?
I think that also a really important lens.
The other thing I'll say, which Imentioned in my DVC talk, I feel like
there's like this moment where peoplesuddenly get it with automated testing
(58:42):
and what it is is when it's the firsttime that a test, you write catches a bug.
So I had that experience myself.
I was kind of teaching myselfto do tests and development.
and I was like, yeah, sure,whatever, I didn't really get it.
But then I w I was writing think itwas some serialization code, so code
that you know, we'll take some objectserialize it to a file or whatever.
So they, diesel has it froma file lead into memory.
John (59:03):
I always call civilization like
a save mechanism or like a save load.
Henry G (59:08):
sure.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so I forget exactly what thecontext was, but it was like, you
know, I, I was writing this thing andit would sterilize different types.
And for the Boolean type, I waswriting my test as I went and I
was like, surely I can just do one.
Right?
Like I could just do trueor I could just pick one.
Right.
Do I really need to be both?
It was just unit test.
Right.
So they were super cheap.
Like they run in like, sub milliseconds.
I was like, you know what, I'm just goingto write it out and see what happens.
(59:30):
And then it was like, bam fail.
I was like, whoa, like if I had notwritten that, because I was like, I
don't think I need to write that test.
Right.
Like, I, I can't see why it would bedifferent if it was false versus true.
but this is kind of, to mypoint of like, humans are really
bad at knowing what code does.
All right.
So I wrote this test and then it failed.
yes, I got that view.
But, but also I got like, wow, whathave I been doing all this time?
(59:52):
Like, I've written a bunchof code without tests.
don't know if it worked or not,
John (59:56):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Henry G (59:58):
that code worked when I wrote it.
Right.
It was only when I wrote the test andit failed that I was like, oh, okay.
Now that I look, I can, I can seewhy that would be totally wrong.
And I would much rather find that outnow rather than like two months from
now, when some artists has using mysystem and the safes and they try and
load this stuff and this bug happens.
(01:00:20):
And then the, you know, say twodays before release or whatever.
And then, you know, now I findout, it was that point that it was
like, apifany of, I can totallysee the clear benefit that spending
my time writing test house for me.
And I've seen that with somany other people, right.
Like everyone that I to write tests,
it's that, it's that, moment.
Then they come to me, likemy, test found a book.
(01:00:42):
This is great.
I'm so excited.
And I'm like, that's awesome.
And so a lot of like my strategy whenI'm trying to like, introduce people
to testing is to try and get themto that point as soon as possible.
John (01:00:52):
you bring up something that
it makes it so obvious is that case
where it finds a bug in your codethat you can then fix, but how much
better does it get when it exposesbugs and someone else's code, right?
Like when they're in, they're extendinga system and they are done and they
did all their side and now they'vegot to run the tests and the build
(01:01:13):
machine returns back, Hey, it failedthese XYZ tests, go check it out.
then, you get a message.
You'd be like, yo Henry,I'm failing you task, bro.
Help me figure this out.
Right.
I'm sure that kind of like, yes,my officer or my cop did its job.
Henry G (01:01:29):
Yeah.
Well, and also, and also like it'syou were talking about readability
Ryan documentation and test if writtenwell, tests can offer that as well.
So like after I had movedto United States I left re.
Like a few months later, someone justpinged me who I'd worked with that
saying, oh, Hey, I'm modifying like thevoice chat system that you worked on.
(01:01:49):
Thanks for the tests because they reallyhelped me understand how it worked.
John (01:01:53):
was that sea of thieves.
Henry G (01:01:55):
Yes.
Let's say like, yeah, the F the,the fact that like a test exists
that says, you know, when I do thisthing, I expect this thing to happen,
like in itself can be really useful.
Right.
If you look someone, if you'relooking at a system you don't know,
and you're like, oh, well, okay.
I can see that the test, I should dothis in this case, in this, in this case.
John (01:02:11):
Yeah.
self-documenting code.
Yeah.
the few units S I've seen, kind ofexplicitly tell you, like, basically
the expected results for this input.
This is what you should get.
And so
an experienced engineer canreverse engineer that to be like,
I'm not getting these results.
Let me step through a debugger.
See the valleys.
Oh, I found my issue.
Henry G (01:02:28):
So there's a system
called Gherkin, it's a language,
and it's basically like a humanreadable test specifications.
So it will look something like, you know,given I spawn or whatever, and when I kick
it with my foot, then it should explode.
so it's part of a practice called behaviordriven development, which is where You
know, your designer or whoever is kindof specifying the behavior would write
(01:02:51):
literally something like this, and thenyou can implement it and actually turn
it into executive will specification.
with the caveat that I've neverseen that work, I tried it, I
tried it on connect sports rivalsI was like, this is gonna be great.
John (01:03:08):
it's easier to
talk it through for sure.
Right.
It's
Henry G (01:03:10):
yeah,
John (01:03:11):
Hey, this is the behavior
I, expect, then you have it
and Hey, turn that into a test.
Henry G (01:03:16):
And there were two things
that made it not work, but one
was that the specification neversurvived the implementation.
Right.
So if it would be like, given I see a acreeper and it walks near me, it explodes
in the process of the implementationto try and make that you would have
to end up doing something like when Ilaunched the game and they load into
a level and I create this and I'm insurvival mode and that it just becomes
(01:03:38):
really long it's too unreadable.
John (01:03:39):
yeah.
Yeah.
Henry G (01:03:41):
And the other thing was.
The way that I had it implemented wasreally high friction for programmers.
So basically we were sayingto programmers, Hey, you
should use this thing.
It's really cool.
Right.
But what actually it was, was,Hey, you should use this thing.
And what it means is go open a new visualstudio solution and go write some C-sharp
code and then go write some Gokin code,which you also don't know how to use.
(01:04:02):
And then go back to the game and add ahook that you can post from the season.
And it's like this whole thing.
Right.
And it's like, no, one'sgonna, no, one's gonna do it.
And so then the, what, works thoughwas what we did on sea of thieves
then was no, I mean, you know,that's where I write my tests.
I mean, the editor, that's whatI write my tests and blueprint.
So basically kind of keepingpeople in their environment.
Right.
So like, it's really like low friction.
(01:04:22):
Cause if I'm asking you to do somethingthat you already are kind of suspicious
about and you don't really want to do, ifI make it super easy for you, you're much
more likely to do it than if I make it.
So you have to like, youknow, walk a mile before you
John (01:04:34):
yeah, that's human nature, right?
Like we are naturally lazy.
You're going to take shortcuts, notus, but you know, the brain is going
to look for shortcuts wherever it can.
And there is a drop-off point.
If something has too many instructions.
Henry G (01:04:49):
So you asked actually earlier
about like, what's my day-to-day look like
secondly, to that And then if there isa typical day to day for me personally,
well, a lot of what I'm thinking aboutis like in a system like that, how do
I make it easy to do the right thing?
how do I make it so that the rightthing is the easy thing to do also.
John (01:05:07):
That should be the
creative, a game developer.
Right.
When we're looking at whether it'splayer facing or dev facing, it's
like, Hey, how do I make this to do?
Or the obvious choice or, youknow, make all the decisions
kind of equally appealing or
Henry G (01:05:22):
Yeah.
And that's from the point of viewof a team that's like supporting
other teams internally, you know?
So like from a gameplay teams perspectiveor gameplay systems team, right?
Like who are your customers?
They might well be the designer as well,who are consuming the systems you make.
But then there's alsolike the end customer.
So it's like how are weempowering people to do their job?
Which is to produce something thatis really cool for the customer.
John (01:05:44):
Talk to me about working at rare
and heading a chance to come over to
the states, to make a jump with a stillas part of rare, or you jumped in.
You're working at rare and you havean opportunity to come over here.
Was there any differences that you
Henry G (01:06:01):
Hmm.
John (01:06:01):
the workplace, the team
culture, style development style?
Henry G (01:06:06):
in sense of differences,
like we touched on it before
with the parental leave, but likecertainly the kind of employment
landscape is, is kind of different.
I remember being really freaked out whenI got the kind of contract and it was like
employment at, will you maybe tell me?
I was like, well, that
doesn't sound right.
John (01:06:22):
what is it like in the UK?
Henry G (01:06:23):
It's pretty hard to
fire a permanent employee.
Like they have to do something likenegligent or like gross misconduct to
warrant being like just straight fired.
And it it's really like,yeah, it doesn't happen a lot.
You know, and if you make someoneredundant, then you have to like
do everything you can to offer themother roles and stuff like that.
It's a different kind of landscapein terms of like job security.
I mean, having said that, Idon't know if that really is
(01:06:45):
that much difference, right?
Because at the end of the day I wasworking for a company and the company
was clearly about to go bankrupt.
And so like really, do I have anymore job security then than I would
have had here, you know, working for acompany that isn't about to go bankrupt.
So all swings around about.
But I appreciate it.
The, it was, you I hadthe opportunity to do it.
(01:07:06):
Right.
Cause I think it's quite hard toimmigrate to the United States.
From what I understand
John (01:07:10):
yeah.
What year was this?
Generally?
Henry G (01:07:12):
this was 20, 20 17.
John (01:07:13):
So was that like the Trump era?
Henry G (01:07:16):
yeah.
yeah.
John (01:07:18):
He made it pretty hard
on like any visas going out
Henry G (01:07:22):
He did.
Although, and I th I think I was moreworried about it than I needed to be.
You know, bluntly as, you know,an English speaking, white male
turning up at the U S embassy.
Like they're not really in thebusiness of turning me away.
Right.
Especially if Microsoft is sponsoring me.
John (01:07:38):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think Microsoft has goodconnections with a work visa.
Yeah.
Henry G (01:07:43):
So I was actually much more
worried about it than I needed to be,
honestly, which I appreciate is, youknow, I have significant privilege in
being able to, you know, experience that.
But I was super freaked out aboutit, honestly, because it was like,
we're offering you this role, it'ssubject to you getting a visa.
And then they like, oh, it couldbe anywhere from like three months
to a year, but to get the visa,
John (01:08:03):
yeah,
Henry G (01:08:04):
um,
John (01:08:04):
are crazy.
Henry G (01:08:05):
how's, it turned
out it was three months.
So you know, all I had to do
John (01:08:08):
that's quick,
quick three months is like the
minimal
Henry G (01:08:10):
Yeah.
Everything was super quick.
I was eligible because I hadworked for a Microsoft subsidiary
in the UK for more than a year.
So I was eligible for the O one visa.
And yeah, well, I had to do wasbasically fill in some stuff and the
lawyers put some people together.
I went down to the embassy.
I was like, freaking out.
I was like, thinkinglike an interrogate me,
and then it was just,
John (01:08:30):
It's their job to make you break.
Henry G (01:08:32):
yeah,
John (01:08:33):
like, they're constantly looking for
a lie or something that's not consistent.
Henry G (01:08:38):
right.
John (01:08:39):
onto
Henry G (01:08:39):
Well, and I was really worried
about it, but then the only, they
didn't even really ask me on the thing.
Right.
they just like took the thing.
And the lawyer had basically like mostof the months that had been in the run-up
to this, like the three months was thelawyers going back and forth with me
preparing this letter about like, why Iwas needed and why Microsoft needed me.
And basically the guy at theembassy refused to take that letter.
(01:09:00):
He was like, this isn't part of the forms.
I don't want it.
So I
John (01:09:03):
yup.
Yeah.
So,
by the book, it's ridiculous.
Yeah.
Henry G (01:09:07):
said they never,
never even read that letter.
it was just purely like on Microsoft sayso but I mean, obviously they, you know,
they do the opportunity to do the rightthing and they go by the book they've
tick all the boxes and make sure thatthey can, if they got challenged, they
could defend the decision or whatever.
It was super easy.
I made it hard for myself.
John (01:09:22):
I'm glad to hear was easy,
Henry, it's not always the case.
and I found, even in my journey acrossborders into Canada, to a story,
stay consistent, state the facts.
Right.
And things should go fine.
it, doesn't hurt to have a giganticcorporation behind you with
Henry G (01:09:41):
Right.
even so it's like intimidating, right?
Cause the I'd been to Seattle a few times.
And so like, you know, when you comeinto America and then like that's sitting
behind those desks and they have gunsand stuff and it's like, when you go to
England, like, well at least please myexperience when I got back to England is
like, it's changed actually since then.
But at the time suddenlyyou here's my possible.
And they're like, welcome homewhere it's like, I've seen
(01:10:02):
them like grill us citizens,
you know?
John (01:10:05):
it happens to me all the
time because of my common name.
Henry G (01:10:09):
Um,
John (01:10:10):
into the country, it's always,
I always get the 10th degree.
Like, no matter what, it's just
based
off name.
Henry G (01:10:15):
yeah.
I just assumed that, you know, uscitizens would be treated better.
John (01:10:20):
home that you live here.
Like,
Henry G (01:10:24):
Right, Right, Yeah.
And so, now I have a green card and so Ithink it's a little bit less complicated,
but even still, I haven't actuallybeen out of the country since I got it.
So it's always weird, you know, likethere's some paperwork I have to bring,
like even going up to Canada, I hadto bring like this big, this piece
of paper that was stamped and stuff.
So I'm always like freaked out.
I'm going to lose it.
John (01:10:43):
Is dual citizenship a thing
that you're considering at all,
like what would you wa like, what
Henry G (01:10:49):
yeah.
I don't know.
I'm not eligible right now.
So I think I have to have the greencoat for a number of years and then
I can apply to become a system.
if I want to.
John (01:10:57):
Is your child a citizen
of the states and of the UK.
Nice.
See, that's that's the way,
that's the way.
Henry G (01:11:05):
I'm just going to have it easy.
John (01:11:06):
Hell yeah, come and go.
As you please
either country.
That's the way
Henry G (01:11:12):
This is what I do.
This is kinda my mission right nowis to help the games industry, mature
in terms of how we make products,because I think that's going to
be really beneficial for everyone.
We're going to have abetter working conditions.
We won't have to crunch so much.
Cause I like saying my talk, right.
either, we do continuous delivery, which Ididn't define yet, but go watch my tokens.
(01:11:32):
I talk about it.
John (01:11:32):
I put the link in the show
notes.
Henry G (01:11:34):
So like either
like
John (01:11:35):
need, you need a
vault subscription, right?
Henry G (01:11:37):
you do.
Yeah.
on my LinkedIn, I have an articlewhich is like kind of a short summary
of the topics.
Yeah.
And the two older raretalks are on YouTube now.
John (01:11:48):
let's talk about that Trello board.
I'll definitely put a link to that, but
Henry G (01:11:53):
right.
John (01:11:53):
a treasure trove of resources.
Henry G (01:11:56):
And I put this together just
because a lot of people ask me like
what, what can I go to find out moreabout how to do this kind of stuff?
And actually there are a ton oftalks and resources I'm trying to
collate them on this Trello board.
So yeah, I called it the gameautomated testing resource
hub, which is quite grand.
But it's yeah, it's justa trailer with stuff on,
John (01:12:13):
yeah, it was like
easily, at least 10.
Great links already
Henry G (01:12:17):
Yeah.
And there's
John (01:12:17):
Talks.
Henry G (01:12:18):
that to GDC, automated testing,
round tables, discord it's like the main
kind of community that I'm aware of, wherepeople talk about this kind of stuff.
So if you have questions people alsowelcome to reach out to me on LinkedIn.
Like I know, like I say this all thetime and hardly anyone ever does,
but I actually would love to hearfrom people for real, you know, if
you have questions, if you're like,Hey, I'm just a small studio or my
(01:12:39):
studio, I want to know how to do this.
Like that.
That's literally my whole thing.
I'm very motivated to justtry and get this to take off
more widely in the industry.
Like we've done it now on CFD.
Zando Minecraft.
There's no reason that itcan't work for any game.
It is a little bit tricky and people,what people tell me is that they hear
a lot of people saying you should dothis, but they don't hear a lot of like
(01:13:01):
practical advice of how do you do this?
So that's the gap that I'mtrying fill, hopefully.
And then it, my, my kind ofsummary pitch is basically
like the industry has changed.
You know, we don't shipgames on desks anymore.
We ship them constantly.
It's only going to get more frequentand if we're reliant on manual, For
(01:13:22):
the validation, like the V for thevery basic validation that our title
works, then we're going to have problemsand we're going to end up crunching
in order to hit these release dates.
And our customers are goingto have a worse experience.
So there's really just like all sortsof reasons to be better at this.
And we think there is a betterway, which is continuous
delivery with automated testing.
And just to clarify, I'm not tryingto add additional burden to programs.
(01:13:47):
We'll put manual tests out of a job.
You know, the, the ideal story here isprogram has gotten an awesome tool that
helps them get really fast feedback aboutthings that they care about in their
code and manual testing becomes the role.
It was always advertised to be where youget to play games all day and give you
a feedback about like what the customerexperience would be of playing this title.
Right.
(01:14:07):
Rather than you got to find bizarreways to plug in and out control
as, until you made the game crash.
John (01:14:14):
exactly.
Yeah.
See, that's the type of stuff thatshould be automated and can be automated.
right.
Henry G (01:14:19):
right.
Yeah.
Yeah,
John (01:14:22):
the humans get to practice
their creativity and exploration and,
Henry G (01:14:28):
absolutely.
John (01:14:29):
things that developers had no
clue or inkling that a player would do
Henry G (01:14:34):
absolutely.
Yeah.
And so I have great respect for,the ingenuity and human skills, all
of our amazing man assessed this.
And I just want them to not haveto be, you know, playing broken
games or like executing testscripts over and over again.
Right.
Like a computer can do that.
you don't have to do that.
That's the, what will waste of your time?
Let's use your time for somethingthat is worthy of a human attention.
John (01:14:56):
this is a great treasure trove
resource that I'll share a link to.
You also mentioned in some ofthe conversations we've had,
that you just have this passionfor sharing the knowledge.
You have a YouTube channel where youkind of do like live extreme programming,
Henry G (01:15:11):
Yeah.
It's something that we're tryingout and it sounds kind of grounded,
but it's basically like it's petprogramming test driven development.
we've done two so far.
It's me and the guy thatclimbed on my team, actually,
we were talking about languages.
Other, I should've mentioned Ross causeJacqueline is a huge Russ station.
John (01:15:27):
functional programming.
Henry G (01:15:29):
Yeah.
But yeah, it's basicallyjust us programming.
I'm also hoping to do some kind of morelike, you know, find the people who
want to come on and talk about stuff.
So yeah, it's, there's a YouTubechannel, but it's all kind of
accessible via my LinkedIn.
So my LinkedIn is like a good jumpingoff point for all of this stuff.
John (01:15:45):
excellent.
Excellent.
We'll push people that way.
Well then my friend, the time hasflown by and I've learned a bit,
I've learned, I've learned than whatI knew coming in, which is awesome.
I've connected with you a bit more.
There's so many cool things you'vedone that I wanted to touch on, right.
That I want to learn more about.
The beast.
That is Microsoft.
(01:16:06):
There's one cool thing about thefuture that I just uncovered today.
One that if you could talk a bit about,and it started with the question of
like, what would you do if there were nolimits what has that turned into for you?
Henry G (01:16:19):
I've been telling the story
because I think it's interesting from
a career development point of view thekey thing being, if you know what you
want to do, you have to tell people,because until you tell people you, you
wouldn't get any help achieving it.
But it's really hard to do, right?
Like, cause you have imposter syndrome.
So basically some tools that Microsoftprovides to us is like a career check-in.
So as a manager, I do this with peoplewho, who report to me and I did it myself.
(01:16:42):
part of it is aself-reflection questionnaire.
So I fill this thing out and then whenI was done filling out, I was like,
oh, that's certainly a theme here.
And then the last question is like, ifthere were no limits, what would you do?
And I wrote like this kind of missionstatement around, like how would
eliminate crunch from the gamesindustry forever by, you know, helping
people with the adoption of continuousdelivery with automated testing.
And we would have unlimited budget andjust go in to anyone who wanted help and
(01:17:06):
give them money, you know give them helpin education and training and so forth.
John (01:17:10):
sign me up.
Henry G (01:17:11):
yeah, right.
I started telling people thisway, this was like my goal.
And then someone said, oh, Iknow someone who's like trying
to put together a team like thatinside of X-Box games to you guys.
So long story short hopefully bythe time anyone is listening to
this, I will be leading that team.
So we have an amazing opportunity to gohelp all of the studios that we work with.
And my personal addition to that islike, for me, it doesn't stop that
(01:17:33):
at like I lo I would gladly helpsyou guys outside of us as well.
So if anyone else has questions,like I really do mean it.
Please contact me.
John (01:17:41):
That's wonderful.
And I think it'll just kind of giveyou much more experienced to be able
to kind of apply these things on mass,across all these different types of
games by different developers thathave been doing things their own way of
which X-Box studios are gigantic now.
Right.
It used to be a handful of studiosand now it appears to be damn near a
(01:18:02):
quarter, if not more of the industry,when you think about, does the
Cinemax and you think about Activisionblizzard and then you think of how
that was already at Xbox, right?
Like the fours, the team,the 3, 4, 3 mojo, Jang.
exciting,
Henry G (01:18:17):
Yeah.
And then the other thing is, cause allof those studios, they all are probably
doing some things right along these lines.
And so having a way to kind of figureout what that is and trying to share it.
we'll would love to share more, butwhen you're trying to ship a product,
it's really easy to get caught upin like, oh, you know, when the
product ships then we'll go find out.
But in this kind of worldof games released forever,
(01:18:39):
there is no like end date.
that's when you could benefit fromlike, you know, if I know that, Jane
developer, that studio is working ona thing and then, you know, Samsung,
and so this today has a questionabout that, then I can connect them.
So I'm really hoping that we'll beable to do more of that kind of stuff.
And not only ton of taking knowledgeout to people, but also bringing
(01:18:59):
knowledge back, sharing around.
John (01:19:01):
How do you break in at Microsoft
Henry G (01:19:04):
That is a great question.
John (01:19:05):
at the time you were at EUROCOM
you're working on Disney universe.
Henry G (01:19:09):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And that was the project that Iwas mentioning, but kind of took
the company down what's happening.
And so I was like, I need a new role.
So I, took a contract roleat Microsoft game studio.
No, at rare I had actually beenat had prior to that I was,
yeah, it didn't really work out.
some games got canceled workingon tools and I was like, I want
to be a gameplay programmer.
(01:19:29):
it was a whole
thing
John (01:19:30):
okay.
So you left, you're like, Hey,man, I want to work on a game
projects, got canceled.
Which, which happens all the
time.
Right?
you get
in dream job, dream role, and the
rug gets pulled out from underneath you.
Henry G (01:19:40):
I was over the
line, had found boy.
Right.
And I was like, this is my dream job.
And then like a few months in, I waslike, wow, this is not my dream job.
And then I went to EUROCOM,which I had never even heard of
before I started working on it.
Right.
It's not like a big name.
John (01:19:53):
let that be a lesson to you, right?
Henry G (01:19:55):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Like the cool, the cool sounding companythat makes the game you love might not be
the place that it's right for you to work.
John (01:20:01):
was it like a
fable game or something?
Henry G (01:20:03):
I actually when I landed the
w working on Milo and Kate, which if
you remember, like that techdemo for project and the towel,
which then became the connect,
it was like the little boy on the swing.
And like you talk to him and stuff.
You could ask specifically abouthow to break into Microsoft.
So the answer is, you know, if youwant to be a contractor, keep an
eye out for those contract roles.
But you know, if you want to bean FTE, then there's a standard
(01:20:24):
process that you must go through.
Right.
So if you're, if you're coming out ofcollege, then you ha you go through you,
you apply through the college process.
there's a way that we cantell a recruiting, Hey, that's
someone we interested in.
So for example, i, have, a mentee rightnow from the Washington state opportunity
scholarship, which is just nonprofit thattries to increase access to tech jobs
by funding education for stem topics.
(01:20:46):
And so for example, you know, ifshe applied, what I'm told is that
there's a mechanism by which I can say,oh, we would like to interview her.
so, you know, it's worth networkingand finding contacts and studios
like Mo Chang, do a lot of outreachespecially we are trying to do better
in terms of diversity and inclusion.
And so we're trying to go to places wherewe wouldn't necessarily have gone before.
(01:21:08):
But having said that, you know, we dohave obviously a gazillion applicants,
so it's, pretty tough.
And also like, you may not necessarilyget much control over where you end
up especially cause you know, like forexample, you might come in thinking
that you're gonna work on halo andthen something happens and then you
end up working on, you know, office
or
whatever.
John (01:21:28):
That's crazy that's a big shift.
Henry G (01:21:31):
So not that I'm not saying, not
saying that happens a lot, but certainly
like there's a guy on my team who islike, we, kind of rescued from, another
organization where he had ended up,like, and he had thought he was coming
to Xbox I try and build relationshipswith, colleges, you know, like there's
actually someone I reached out torecently because I came across his blog.
He's a lecturer at a college in Indiana.
And then I noticed he was teachingpeople unreal test driven development.
(01:21:55):
And I was
like,
I am very interested in talking to you.
And so we connectedwith him and we chatted.
they're launching a games program soon.
So I'm like, yeah, if there's anythingI need help, let me help you let me
know.
we'll send out, I'll say this lotsof people who I know of at Microsoft,
who do, kinds of outreach like that.
Right.
So there's lots of opportunities totry and get in touch with someone.
John (01:22:12):
Um,
Henry G (01:22:13):
have a contact, then that's
an opportunity for them to you advice.
And even like what seems to us like superbasic advice I think is really valuable.
So like my mentee that I hada conversation with, she's
taking a a web design class at
a local college.
And I'll ask conversation.
I was just able to give a lot of feedbackabout her resume in terms of like,
what, you know, what would someone whois recruiting for a web design role be
(01:22:35):
looking for what, even though I'm nota web designer, I don't really know.
Right.
But
I know enough to be able to give anincredible amount of valuable advice.
So I guess that my rallyingcoal for people like us is there
are tons of these opportunities.
Right?
There's all sorts of non-profitswho will connect you with
mentees, who you can have.
You can just have like two conversationswith and be super influential to them
(01:22:55):
and help them overcome those barriers.
Like not knowing how toput a resume together.
Right.
John (01:23:00):
That's awesome.
It's like put yourself out there andshare what you're up to because it's
interesting to you, it will very well beof interest to other people and it helped
you find them and connect with them.
Right?
Like test-driven developmenton unreal systems,
you know?
Boom.
al
Henry G (01:23:16):
super interested in like, how
come, you know, because I think these
skills are gonna be really necessary,you know, in the coming years.
And the more people who havethem the better off we'll all be.
And so like, I'm really interested inlike forming relationships with, colleges.
So like I did a littletalk at USC recently.
it wasn't so many people there,but we're just trying to make us
thought and kind of spread the word.
John (01:23:37):
Quality over quantity.
That's how it goes.
For sure.
that's a great point is for a lot ofthis future facing growth and progress to
start at that academic collegiate level.
Right.
Like instill it in them early sothat when they get into the industry,
they're kind of preaching it as well.
And applying it, haveexperienced yourself with making
(01:23:57):
a jump from a Microsoft team.
You were on teams.
Henry G (01:24:02):
that was actually the team
that I joined when I moved out here.
and the reason was that when I was workingat rat on CFDs on all the testing staff,
there was a podcast I listened to calledthe AB testing podcast with Alan, with
Alan Page who he's the a and a and B.
he literally wrote the book,how we test offer at Microsoft.
which is super out of date,by the way, don't read it.
he would tell you, do not read it, buthe's really evolved, testing has changed.
(01:24:25):
So anyway, his podcast was superinfluential to me and I met him a
couple of times cause he worked atMicrosoft when I came out to visit.
And so I saw he was hiringand I was like, yeah, I will.
I want to come and see, youknow, like we've done this
on a, on a game, I know that.
And the wide wall of software,you guys are doing bigger and
better of this kind of thing.
(01:24:46):
So I want to see how the real pros do it.
And that's how I ended up coming tothe Microsoft teams team and supplies.
I stayed there for, I think, a yearor two, but suffice it to say alum had
have actually left the team and theteam charter kind of changed a bit.
And so I ended up basically doing somestuff that wasn't interesting to me.
And I didn't feel likeI was really learning.
And so I was then if you want onenice thing about even being in a, even
(01:25:09):
if you accidentally end up on a teamthat you didn't want to be on inside
a large company like Microsoft, isthat it's quite easy to move intently.
John (01:25:17):
yeah.
Henry G (01:25:18):
So I knew someone on
Minecraft and there was a role
available on the game play team.
And so I kind of moved overfrom teams to Microsoft.
John (01:25:27):
When it's an internal kind of team
shift, is the interview process the same?
Does it change It
Henry G (01:25:32):
It is the same in the
sense of you still do interviews.
And I think they do that for,you know, for equity reasons.
You know, like it should be, youshouldn't have an unfair advantage, what
we want to hire the best people, notjust people who have the opportunity
to apply cause they're in tunnel.
But having said that you have theadvantage of when you are an employee
and you look into the recruiting site,you can see who the hiring manager is.
(01:25:54):
And so you can then kind of contactthem and say, Hey, I would like to
have an informational with you whereyou can just have coffee and then they
will tell you about the role and youtell them, so it's not an interview,
but you get a chance to understand moreabout the role than you would if you
were just applying for it externally.
But actually speak it to, toyour question about breaking in.
Like if you were able to cultivatea contact at Microsoft who can maybe
(01:26:16):
provide that information or evenreach out to such a hiring manager on
your behalf and trying to understandif that role is a good fit for you.
that could be a way to improve yourchances of finding a good match.
John (01:26:27):
Yeah, because back to the point
you made earlier about, if it's something
you're passionate about, it makes itmuch easier and it's not uncommon to
read a role, get excited about it.
And it turned out to besomething completely different.
Right.
So if you can kind ofidentify that earlier,
Henry G (01:26:43):
Yeah,
John (01:26:44):
to be better off.
Henry G (01:26:45):
yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, if it's like, you know, Someoneapproached me and they're like, oh, Hey,
you know, I've, I've done this project.
So, you know, I tried to, you know, Idid this indie game and I write these
tests for it or whatever, super curiousto learn more about whatever, you
know, that's like a way to show offyour work someone who cares about it.
So in the same way as if, you know, ifyou, you were in the field of, you know
(01:27:08):
and you did something really cool, thenyou'd want to make, try and make sure
that you could, be able to make sure that,you know, people who are interested in
that kind of thing would see it, right?
Like, so people are uh,
art leads or whatever it might be hiring.
John (01:27:19):
Let's get into the final
round and wrap this thing up.
we made it my friend.
One question I like to ask is whatis the last game that you finished?
Henry G (01:27:30):
The last game that I finished.
So right now massive fat,legendary edition is on game pass.
So the last games that I finishedvery recently were mass effect
two, three, and one twice.
About to finish two again on, in silence.
John (01:27:47):
damn, that's hard core.
I love hearing that.
Henry G (01:27:50):
Yeah.
I'm kind of achievement hunting a littlebit, but replayed them through and then I
was like, ah, may I'll try that insanity.
So I got the mass effect, oneon insanity near the end of
mass effect two on insanity.
I think three is going tobe harder, but we'll see.
John (01:28:03):
do you classify yourself
as a completionist in that
kind of gamer quadrant?
Henry G (01:28:08):
I don't always, but I can be.
John (01:28:11):
If the game hooks you,
right.
If it's a game, you really like,
Henry G (01:28:14):
yeah,
John (01:28:15):
awesome.
a big achievement hunter and gamepass has kind of restart that.
Henry G (01:28:20):
yeah.
Actually my, my favorite achievementor like the female I'm most proud of
was this was years ago, but it waslike this ex human revolution, I think.
And
John (01:28:28):
Yeah.
That's the first one, right?
Henry G (01:28:30):
Yeah, the first
reboot, I think, whatever, whicheverone that was, but they had like this,
it was like three achievements that waslike the whole game on max difficulty,
the whole game without killing anyoneon the whole game without being.
John (01:28:43):
Okay.
Henry G (01:28:44):
did a play through
and I popped all three of them.
And that was like, this is amazing.
John (01:28:49):
Hell
yeah.
Henry G (01:28:50):
to relate a
lot of if so, I'll say
John (01:28:52):
Oh, that's how you play those games.
I did the same thing fordishonored too, right.
It was like typical stuff playedthrough of like, never be seen.
Don't kill anybody.
right.
Henry G (01:29:01):
right.
Yeah.
John (01:29:02):
But I played the same way.
Right?
It's like do something, fail, reload,something good spot and reload.
Henry G (01:29:08):
Yeah.
And nobody, I don't have a greattolerance for that, but just some
games like really hooked me enoughthat I'm willing to do that.
John (01:29:14):
Exactly.
I love it.
What is the last book you read?
Henry G (01:29:18):
The last book that I read right
in quotes was this book that's on my desk.
We have this engineeringbook club and we're reading
refactoring by most of the Fila.
So, but there's a bit where you, thebit that you can read and then it
turns into like a reference thing.
And then I was thinking aboutthis question and I feel a book
that I wanted to mention becauseI thought it was really important.
When I read it was cost by IsabelWilkerson it's kind of a rough
(01:29:38):
read, but it's very powerful.
John (01:29:40):
cast in terms of test system?
Henry G (01:29:43):
Yeah.
very good.
yeah, it was recommended by Shola Richardswho comes and talks to us sometimes.
He's like known for being likethe workplace civility guy.
But it's basically about it'scomparing sort of race in America
to cost systems in other countries.
it's a super interesting lensEspecially for me as a foreigner.
I learned a ton.
So yeah, I highly recommend it.
John (01:30:05):
Okay, man, I might
have to put that on my list.
I don't normally ask thisquestion, but find it.
interesting that you have people get,it's get to come in or Microsoft invites
to give talks or share sharing idea.
Curious, what are yourfavorite perks at Microsoft?
I'm curious myself, if youguys have like unlimited game
pass subscriptions or something
Henry G (01:30:26):
We do actually.
Yeah.
So yeah, we have game passsubscription, and you don't even have
to look at X-Box for that anymore.
We have, you know, free games obviouslythat we publish which is nice.
Of my favorite ones is we get accessto the Riley book library online.
John (01:30:39):
Oh, yes.
That is so worthwhile.
Henry G (01:30:43):
Yeah.
Tons of technical books on thatare really awesome and you can
kind of make playlists and stuff.
So
John (01:30:48):
Yeah.
Henry G (01:30:49):
I really value that.
Yeah.
John (01:30:51):
all the companies out there.
If you don't have an O'Reilly subscriptionfor your employees, look into that.
It is so worthwhile because Yeah.
these texts go for like 40, 50,
Henry G (01:31:00):
Right, right.
John (01:31:01):
more.
Henry G (01:31:02):
Yeah.
And it's like the, the, the abilityjust to go and just open it and
read it on the intimate, is amazing.
The access it gives you.
Right.
Cause like even your most highlypaid employee, isn't going to go
and drop a thousand dollars toread like 10 books or whatever.
John (01:31:17):
It's a great reference.
And you can read itfrom any device, right?
These days you have SSO use your workemail and you can access it from any
device and it's yeah, I gotta check.
I
Henry G (01:31:27):
yeah, I think I probably
should give us some kind of
kickback for, for this commercial.
John (01:31:33):
Hookup a sponsorship.
Yeah.
We had it at EA and I haven't checkedto see if I have an epic, But I want to
Henry G (01:31:38):
Yeah.
But that kind of thing youknow, free Orca card, I guess.
Well, back when travel was athing, but for those outside of the
satellite area, that's the bus pass.
John (01:31:46):
Yeah, W w is there an
equivalent system in the UK?
Like I forgot what
Henry G (01:31:51):
yeah, it's kinda, it varies.
It varies based on region.
Like you got the oystercards in London then,
yeah.
John (01:31:57):
oh, I always confuse it too,
because it's like Orca oyster.
I was like, damn.
And I'm going to say the wrong one.
Henry G (01:32:03):
Yeah.
Yeah.
John (01:32:04):
That's what it was
Henry G (01:32:05):
But yeah.
And then other than that, I mean yeah,they have a ton of great benefits.
Like medical insurance is wonderful.
I I'm aware of that now.
I haven't know.
Hadn't really thought of it.
But yeah, certainly very nice to haveto have that coverage and they cover
a lot of things including fertilitybenefits which isn't, which is
John (01:32:23):
a big one.
Henry G (01:32:23):
unusual highly valuable.
They also cover, I haven't taken a bunchof this yet, but they'll pay a significant
amount of money on your lead towardsyou getting degree or, you know, if you
want to get a master's or something.
John (01:32:35):
Yeah,
that's huge.
That's huge for peoplecoming out of school.
Henry G (01:32:38):
Yeah,
John (01:32:38):
like a lot of people will kind of
postpone going into work because I'll want
to get my master's or a graduate degree.
And it's like, Hey man, get a joband get that part of your education
paid for if it fits the role.
Henry G (01:32:51):
yeah,
John (01:32:51):
to benefit what you're
doing for the company,
Henry G (01:32:53):
yeah.
Well, and then also, you know, likethe 401k with the 50% match with my
vesting period for like the Englishview as well, listen as if there are
any they're like, I dunno, he's talkingabout right now, but you know, for the
John (01:33:04):
yeah.
Henry G (01:33:05):
U S the U S folks pension,
John (01:33:07):
pension,
Yes.
Gosh, for life.
Henry G (01:33:10):
Yeah, but still not matching
half of your contributions to a pension.
There's still, yeah,I've never heard of that.
That's really quite, quite good.
you know,
John (01:33:19):
going to, I'm going
to stop you off, man.
Henry G (01:33:20):
yeah.
John (01:33:21):
you have people going to start.
Henry G (01:33:22):
I just keep selling, selling
Microsoft benefits all day long.
John (01:33:26):
Yeah.
All right.
Great, stuff though.
I appreciate it.
What would you make if you hada small team and enough money to
give you runway for three years?
Henry G (01:33:37):
Ooh, that's a great question.
. I probably wouldn't make a thing.
I wouldn't make a product.
I would probably well, and what I'mgoing to try and do is make a package
of like education and information aswell as tools that we can hopefully,
you know, use to accelerate people'sprogress and adopting testing.
John (01:33:56):
Fantastic.
Well, my friend, last question.
And if you've heard the podcastbefore, you know, what's
coming, or, no, I'm sorry.
Sorry, There's a new question that
Henry G (01:34:05):
A new one.
John (01:34:06):
there's A new one.
that I meant to startinserting before that.
Right.
And it's it's an opportunity to call outanybody who has been very influential
to you in your line of work or gettingin the industry or as a developer
that you want to cite for give credit.
Or as the cool kidssay, give their flowers.
Henry G (01:34:24):
Oh, wow.
Yeah, that's a new one on me.
I hadn't heard that one.
I'm not cool.
John (01:34:27):
It's an expression that
comes from often than not.
It takes someone passing away for youto go place flowers on their gravestone.
Henry G (01:34:34):
okay.
Right, right.
John (01:34:36):
them while they are alive.
Henry G (01:34:37):
Interesting.
So I haven't, I haven'tpre-thought about this one.
But Def
John (01:34:41):
question.
Henry G (01:34:43):
people who spring to mind
are John sear and Adam Russell who
were lecturers, who ran the computergames, programming course at Darby
that, you know, they kind of fightingthat management chain to insist on
giving like a rigorous educationwas actually super beneficial.
I think for all of us who actually endedup graduating I think probably all of
(01:35:03):
those people are still in the industry.
So I think they had a huge
impact.
John (01:35:07):
John sear, and Adam
Henry G (01:35:08):
Yeah.
John (01:35:09):
in the off chance that they
get to listen to this podcast.
Henry G (01:35:12):
Yeah.
John (01:35:13):
go.
Henry G (01:35:14):
And there's tons of
other people I could mention
of course, but, you know, I
John (01:35:17):
On the spot.
Henry G (01:35:18):
think, especially thinking about
education and stuff, I think I would
definitely definitely call those guys out.
John (01:35:23):
Heck.
Yeah, man.
I think educators don't get enough loveand credit for what it is that they do and
the seeds that they place in all of us toget where we are and spread the knowledge.
And so I'm glad that you called themout and hopefully they get to hear this.
Now, if you listen to the podcast,you know, what's coming, my friend,
who would you nominate to fallout of the play area behind you?
Henry G (01:35:46):
Well, that's a great question.
I've been thinking about it and thishonestly, lots of people would nominate
John (01:35:52):
backlog is getting full.
Henry G (01:35:53):
Yeah, but
John (01:35:54):
to start
Henry G (01:35:55):
I think it would
be really interesting for
you to chat with Phil baker.
So Phil was the type director atRay when we were working on CFE.
So he was a huge influence inthe move to continuous delivery.
He really kind of presided over that.
He had some really awesome likephilosophies, like for example,
it should be easier to write atest and not to write a test.
(01:36:16):
And so I think he's, he's basicallyeven in just doing that, he's been super
influential and spreading this kind ofphilosophy through the games industry.
And then he now works in probableand hired a ton of people from rev.
I think he, I think he might havea really interesting perspective.
I'd like personally would loveto hear more about his history,
John (01:36:34):
Phil baker at improbable
Henry, I appreciate that wreck.
I'm gonna hit you up behind the scenesto get access to them and track them
down and hit them up with the invite.
I appreciate you friend.
will share your LinkedIn information,which is a great hub to get at all
your and blogs, Well, as that troubleboard with all the resources for
(01:36:55):
game automated testing resource hub.
Henry G (01:36:57):
that's the one.
John (01:36:58):
that's the one.
that links going to go in the show notes.
All right.
My friend, last words forthe listeners out there?
Henry G (01:37:04):
For the listeners I hope that,
you know, we all continue to do great
and everyone doesn't have to crunch.
That's my sincere wish for everyone.
And for you, thank you so much for havingme on the podcast really appreciate it.
John (01:37:19):
you the man, let let that be a
lesson to the listeners out there that
you came on out of your own initiative.
You went onto the website out of playarea.com clicked on the academy link.
And here you are.
It's that easy.
He's living proof.
Y'all thank you, Henry.
Hey, if I got my count, right, Henryis the second full-time engineer.
(01:37:40):
Who's come onto the show.
I've got to balance out the scales.
I feel like the shows.
Designer heavy.
You know, I got to emphasize again howrewarding it felt to have Henry hit me up.
Almost all of my gueststhat aren't nominated.
I have to go and huntdown to get on the show.
And man, he rocked it.
He was all about spreading thetest driven development drum,
(01:38:04):
beating that drum and spreadingthe Anthem and planting the seed.
It's a thing.
I've seen it a lot over atfrostbite and it's something that
the industry I feel is behind on.
And so if that's something of interest,definitely check out the links in the
show notes to his trouble, bore thegame, automated testing resource hub.
And if you've got GVC volt access,I've linked his talk lessons learned in
(01:38:26):
adapting the sea of thieves, automatedtesting methodology to Minecraft.
And if all of that is too muchwork, just go and connect with him
on LinkedIn, check out his profile.
He's got all those resources there.
One of the moments that I really dug washow he connected with a person who was
just singing praises of this pattern.
And reached out to him.
(01:38:46):
If I don't say it enough to you aspiringdevs out there, or people looking
to make a jump is to be very vocal.
Be very public with your content.
In whatever medium, because Azar.
Someone who has a similar interest or ashared interest will find it and connect.
And that's all networking is it's makinga genuine connection on a shared interest.
(01:39:06):
It shouldn't feel like work.
It should be a natural extensionof the thing you were doing
that you would do anyway.
I think one of the most bad-assthings is his story about being
able to play that game of, Hey,What would you do with no bounds?
And he created that role that would bringvalue to his company, his employer, and
(01:39:28):
serve the entirety of Xbox game studios.
How fucking gangsters that.
that's a trend that I see the mostinteresting with all these takeovers and
mergers, and that's what has attractedme to the Amazons, the EAs and the
epics is being able to affect multipleproducts and teams from within one entity.
So major, shout out to him for beingable to identify a problem and speaking
(01:39:53):
up to build a team to address it atscale for all those lucky dogs under
the Phil Spencer and Matt booty.
X-Box game studios umbrella.
On episode 35, we sit down with ShawnAlexander Allen of new challenger, where
we talk about the game does of color expo.
What it was like building hisbaby treachery and beat down city.
(01:40:16):
And more that episode debuts in acouple of weeks on Monday, June 20th.
Make sure to follow us so that youdon't miss out on that episode.
Thank you for listening, Deb.
If you found this episode informative,I ask that you pay a link forward to
a developer to help grow our listener.
If you're a game developer with astory you think could help a fellow dev
(01:40:36):
out, please go to out of play area.comand click on the Calendly link at
the top to meet up, please make sureyou get approval from your manager
or studios, PR HR team beforehand.
Out of play area, the game developers,podcasts releases, new episodes every
other Monday on all the major players,including Spotify, apple, and Google.
(01:40:57):
Please make sure to follow us, to seewhat developer falls out of the play area.
Next time.
I'm your host John Diaz untilnext time devs stay strong.
Stay true.
Stay dangerous