November 19, 2025 • 60 mins
Join us for an engaging exploration of art and tarot with our guest, David, of Whiskey Terra Foxtrot. David offers insights into his creative process as he works on designing a hand-drawn Kickstarter tarot deck.
“The Liminal Deck is a traditional 78-card tarot deck with a non-traditional construction. De-gendered and de-saturated, drawing on vaguely unsettling, yet familiar imagery to recreate quiet contradictions of the dreamscape, it's the deck unlike any other.”
Listen in as we explore the intersection of art, creativity, and spirituality, discussing the significance of animals like foxes and crows in artwork and their symbolism in tarot. Our conversation highlights the importance of flexible interpretations in tarot reading, akin to cooking without rigidly following a recipe. We also share reflections on personal backgrounds and experiences with tarot, emphasizing the value of adding personal interpretations to traditional meanings. Through anecdotes and reflections, we illustrate how creativity and logic blend within the realm of spirituality.
Visit our website! Find us on Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, Patreon, & more! If you have any true crime, paranormal, or witchy stories you'd like to share with us & possibly have them read (out loud) on an episode, email us atpnwhauntsandhomicides@gmail.com or use this link. There are so many ways that you can support the show: BuyMeACoffee, Spreaker, or by leaving a rating & review on Apple Podcasts.
“The Liminal Deck is a traditional 78-card tarot deck with a non-traditional construction. De-gendered and de-saturated, drawing on vaguely unsettling, yet familiar imagery to recreate quiet contradictions of the dreamscape, it's the deck unlike any other.”
Listen in as we explore the intersection of art, creativity, and spirituality, discussing the significance of animals like foxes and crows in artwork and their symbolism in tarot. Our conversation highlights the importance of flexible interpretations in tarot reading, akin to cooking without rigidly following a recipe. We also share reflections on personal backgrounds and experiences with tarot, emphasizing the value of adding personal interpretations to traditional meanings. Through anecdotes and reflections, we illustrate how creativity and logic blend within the realm of spirituality.
Visit our website! Find us on Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, Patreon, & more! If you have any true crime, paranormal, or witchy stories you'd like to share with us & possibly have them read (out loud) on an episode, email us atpnwhauntsandhomicides@gmail.com or use this link. There are so many ways that you can support the show: BuyMeACoffee, Spreaker, or by leaving a rating & review on Apple Podcasts.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Sometimes in taro and other practices, people can get very
rigid in things where they'll pull a card and it
will mean only exactly what they have memorized. It means yeah,
and there may be like no ill intention with that.
But sometimes people just I don't think rut is the
right word. But it's the closest where they're they're following
(00:22):
the guidelines right, so they're doing it correctly versus what
are the fluffy gray lines on the outside.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Yeah, they're like the people that follow the recipe to
the tea and like, don't add extra garlic, you know
what I mean?
Speaker 1 (00:35):
Yeah, it's David right, it is David correct from whiskey.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
What is it?
Speaker 1 (00:43):
Whiskey Tara, foxtrot?
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Thank you. I kept saying whiskey fox trot Tara, and
I was like, no, that's the wrong order. Because I'm
slightly dyslexic.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
That's I People come up all the time and they
kind of just I can see their whole brain squint
at the sign, like, yes, this this is good.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
Yes. I met you at the Tacoma Haunted Farmer's Market. Yes,
And I walked past your booth and I saw whiskey first,
and I was like oh whiskey, Okay, what's this about?
And then I saw like tarot stuff. Yeah, I know,
like dang iet no samples, I'm walking away, but no.
Then your art like drew me in. Thank you, I
(01:23):
think pretty much. The first thing I saw I bought,
which was the Mothman print, and it was so cute.
And I was just seeing Mothman stuff everywhere all over
in every booth and I was eyeballing everything and like
nothing was just like hitting it was I don't know.
And then I saw that and it's just a little
Mothman and he's like on a lamp post, like on
(01:46):
the light. It was just so cute, so I was like,
I have to buy this something.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
I like to share with people about that one, and
especially since you mentioned it and you were leaning that way.
The reference photo for that one was actually a cat
looking over the edge of a table, and that kind
of ties into I get a lot of kids and
teenagers talking about like art tips and unconnectional ways to
do things, but I feel like using that reference photo
(02:14):
kind of set it apart from some of the other
things people see with Mothman. And I've had people comment
specifically on that before.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
Yeah, maybe That's what drew by to it because I
love cats.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
Too, So I don't really trust anyone who like, flat
out like hates cats. Like if you're not a cat person,
that's one thing. But I grew up with a bunch
of guys like oh I hate casting. That ties into
some other things, but it's always interesting.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
I know, Well, my co host is allergic. No, she's
actually really allergic. She's like, I actually do like cats,
but I just can't. I can't get close to them
or I'll literally die.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
I've also noticed that some I know at least a
couple people that are deathly allergic to cats, and there
are some of the most cat loving people I have
ever met, and that is really unfortunate. It would be
so sad they come over and we open all the windows.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
And Okay, So I ended up buying this print, and
it wasn't the large one like I wanted because I
was on a little bit of a budget. So I
had to ask you if there was a smaller print,
which is kind of sometimes embarrassing because I'm like, hey,
can I ask something cheaper?
Speaker 1 (03:30):
Yeah. That is the biggest reason that I have like
more than a couple of different sizes because someone eventually
is going to come through and either want a really
tiny one that kind of just fits in the exact
right place, or a really big one that they're going
to put somewhere really weird and tell me about it
(03:51):
later and ask great.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
Yeah, And the big one just drew me in, Like
I don't know if I would have maybe seen it
if it was just the smaller one out. But then
we got to chatting and you told me that you're
into tarot and you are actually designing your own tarot deck.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
Yes, and it's I want to say it's a round
sixty percent done. I would have to do math real
quick on that, but so I'll say that for later.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
How many cards seventy two or seventy eight.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
It's seventy eight cards plus a couple more. Because the
back as well as the typography are also hand drawn.
I decided that I'm going to finish everything before the
end of the year, but also at the same time
put all the specs out there for the Kickstarter so
that people can watch it get finished and jump on
(04:43):
it right as soon as it's available. Because it's also
since it's traditional, I have to scan each one at
a local company which adds other layers.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
I never even thought about the process of making a
a Darrow deck a Tarot deck, and like getting it made,
doing the actual art, and like getting it printed onto cards,
Like what type of cards? Where does that all happen?
This is a pretty in depth process, huh.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
Definitely. Most of the time, when I see other people
doing a project like this, it's either an oracle deck,
which is more like a fifty two cards, or even
sometimes people start out with twenty cards and then they
add booster packs or something like that. When I've seen
people do the traditional seventy eight, it's much smaller pieces,
(05:33):
more like an eight x ten for each one. But
each one of these is twelve by sixteen, And I
have no idea where that measurement came up, but that's
what it started and what I'm sticking with. I feel
like it might have made things a little bit more
complicated than necessary, but it also lets me get in
(05:54):
with a lot of other details that doing things more
of a normal size would not necessary. Early.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
Let me, is it like a traditional Tarot deck where
it's the bigger cards, or is it a different size
even than that it.
Speaker 1 (06:06):
Is the long tarot cards, the traditional size, and I'm
looking forward to formatting everything. The aspect ratio is different,
so it'll be mostly the finished piece, the digital scan,
and then down at the bottom will be the typography
from a different piece.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
So let's talk about some of the art work that's
on the cards. To me, they look super haunting and oh,
I just love it, like dark but also beautiful.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
My work, for some reason, attracts a lot of kids.
Most of the time, I say, oh, my work attracts
a lot of kids, and people assume that I mean
the stuffed animal section, and it's actually some of the
dark art that has I'm really bad at telling ages,
but I want to say, like eight and nine year
olds come up and look a lot closer at things,
(06:58):
and it's really fascina to have even just tiny conversations
with them about like what it reminds them of or
like if they do like Halloween, we can talk about
how like spooky isn't isn't necessarily bad and it Yeah,
the spooky that they're seeing in the Princiet, it kind
of makes them think more about things versus like monsters
(07:19):
straight out right.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
Yeah, that's why, like the word haunting I think came
to me, but that might that might be scary to
some people, but for me, haunting means like beautiful. Oh
that reminds me. In the beginning, before we even even
started recording. Oh yeah, it was like you reminded me
of Shelby Oaks because it's not giving anything away, but
there's a shiny there's a shiny eye situation in that movie,
(07:41):
and that looks exactly like that.
Speaker 1 (07:43):
I moved the little webcam and I try to put
my glasses back on for blue light stuff, and it
is crazy.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
Oh my goodness, it looks like you've on purpose put
like moving googly eyes on there.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
I'm gonna actually take those off because it looks like
I'm staring at you really pointed.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
I'm not creeped out.
Speaker 1 (08:02):
I might creep myself out, so I'm okay with that.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
I could see that. Circling back around to what you
were saying about the kids being attracted to your artwork.
A lot of it is like animal related. Yes, what's
your favorite animal to use in the artwork?
Speaker 1 (08:18):
I think the easiest would probably be foxes because I
grew up a lot drawing dogs and I was a
big neopet kind of kid, and those are all sorts
of different mishmash of different animals, but a lot of
them are dogs, like the back legs and everything. It
(08:39):
just translated as I got older, probably the foxes and
the crows.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
Crows, I love them.
Speaker 1 (08:46):
When I got away from drawing like dragons so much,
that was what was more popular in finding books at
the library. That was how to draw fifty dogs, or
like how to draw fifty birds. And then I found
the favorites.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
I like that. I like that you answered fox because
obviously it's in your name. Oh yes, And I also
love crows. I want to see what is the card
with the crow on it?
Speaker 1 (09:12):
Crows are dominant in the wands suit. Okay, a lot
of that suit has to do with technology and cameras,
and then also moving over to like the LEDs in
different technology, and then moving over to candles and such.
But the page night and then what's typically the King
(09:34):
and the queen are all crows, oh, crows, For obvious reasons.
It kind of represents the intelligence factor of things. The
very hands on the kind of bridging the gap between
pentacles and wands is the idea of doing things with
your hands can be a spiritual action kind of in
(09:56):
an engage your brain type of way. So in the
wands suit, it very naturally organically drifted over to the
ace of wands is a candle, but the two of
wands is a very kind of protest coated individual with
(10:18):
mask and hoodie and everything with two glowing eyes, because
sometimes you have to just there would be no technology
if someone didn't have the idea first. So it's kind
of the both sides of the coin of you can
be completely logical, but you have to have kind of
that spark of creativity, which to me translates to what
(10:40):
spirituality should really be. It's the application of things, not
just the purely cerebral aspect of things.
Speaker 2 (10:47):
Yeah, I love that you were just we were talking
about your glowing eyes, and then we ended up talking
about we're not on video for everyone to see, but
we can see each other. And David was wearing glasses
and there was like a reflection that made him look
like he had these two glowing eyes that were just
bearing into my soul.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
I think in terms of stories a lot, but especially
since I'm in my thirties and its twenty twenty five,
I do make a lot of movie and video game references,
so just putting that out there before I say, there
is a new Silent Hill game that came out that
involves a very traditionally Japanese like historically dressed essentially fox
(11:33):
guy where he's human except for a fox mask and
like long white kimono and everything. That might not be the.
Speaker 2 (11:40):
Right word, but I don't know. Someone will tell us.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
He's very distracting. I can, I can put it that
way and in the best way. But he's all in
white and has white hair and everything. The whites of
his eyes are black, and then his irises are like
a pale blue glow, very similar to how that was.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
It's so creepy but like cool.
Speaker 1 (12:06):
A big part of why I wanted to start the deck,
other than making something that I wanted to actually use,
was sometimes in taro and other practices, people can get
very rigid in things where they'll pull a card and
it will mean only exactly what they have memorized. It
means yeah, and there may be like no ill intention
(12:30):
with that, but sometimes people just I don't think rut
is the right word, but it's the closest where they're
following the guidelines right, So they're doing it correctly versus
what are the fluffy gray lines on the outside.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
Yeah, they're like the people that follow the recipe to
the tea and like, don't add extra garlic, you know
what I mean.
Speaker 1 (12:51):
Yeah, too many people tend to treat everything like it's
baking and you have to do everything with precision. But yeah,
more in life is more like cooking, where you can
you can fudge it a little bit, you can make substitutions,
and even in kind of the baking framework, if you
know exactly why it works, then you can do other
(13:12):
things on top of it. And in my experience, people
kind of get a little afraid of that, but they
don't they don't want to admit that that's what it is,
so they buy the guidebook where they buy their fifth
deck that's a redraw of the traditional ones.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
I have not done taro for very long. It's only
been like since we started the podcast, Okay, so like
maybe five years at this point. So we got the
interpretation books so that we could kind of like learn
as we go, So when we draw a card, we
kind of read from that or even like google things,
or we'll look at the smaller interpretation books that usually
(13:51):
come with the deck, so we'll use like a couple
of different things. But then as well is look at
the card and kind of see what we feel about it,
or add little in sorts of things kind of relating
it to what we're talking about. So it kind of
it makes it stick in your brain a little bit more.
But also you're kind of adding your own interpretations to
(14:16):
the interpretations, if that made any sense.
Speaker 1 (14:19):
Just a preface. I don't remember exactly when I consider
myself having started tarots, So you may actually have more
experience with it than I do, but we probably just
came at it from similar directions but different backgrounds, and
everybody has that. In short, I have a very religious background,
(14:40):
oh shit, in a mainstream religion. I don't want to
turn the whole conversation into just about that particular religion
because it's very easy to do.
Speaker 2 (14:51):
Yeah, okay, I mean we go there all the time anyway,
So that's right.
Speaker 1 (14:55):
I'd be happy to just with the way my brain
works that, don't want to just turn it into the
an anti sermon.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
Let me put it that way, right, Yeah, we're talking
about art here exactly.
Speaker 1 (15:09):
Yeah, sometimes people can bring the baggage of that kind
of thing into other practices where even though it's not
under that heading anymore and not under that label, they
can find things like how to do taro and be
very like, no, we got to do it buy the book. Yeah,
(15:31):
you don't have to anyway, because.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
That's like you were doing it by the Bible, and
like taro is not the interpretation book. Isn't the Bible?
Like you you feel it.
Speaker 1 (15:41):
Yeah, that's the like there there's there are good things
in every like realm of things spiritually and otherwise, but
you got to make some decisions with like does that
mean it's exclusive to this one bucket over here? And sometimes,
especially when people have had the type of background that
(16:01):
I have, it can be really hard to get away
from the feeling of like all this this manual wasn't it,
So we need to find a different manual and follow
it like we did the other one. And yeah, that
also ain't it. But everyone has to go through that process.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
Write your own manual and then don't follow that either. Yeah,
it's keep changing it, make up new rules every day.
That's how I live my life. Plot twist.
Speaker 1 (16:30):
Someone ONTs paraphrased it for me where I was saying
something about like positive chaos, and he kind of stopped
went so basically basically freedom where people hear the word
chaos and think, oh, things exploding and everything going wrong,
Like no, positive practical chaos is rolling with things and
(16:51):
not being hung up on what actually keeps you from
your goals, which is very natural, I guess, and I'm
a big proponent of humans are supposed to hibernate. Then
big box stores came along, stuck a wrench in that
and went, no, you have to work over Christmas, Like, no,
(17:12):
that's that's not how it should be.
Speaker 2 (17:14):
I know, even though Christmas was stolen from the Pagans whatever,
we should still shouldn't have to work.
Speaker 1 (17:22):
You what I know about it promotes very much a
like getting ready to hibernate kind of thing. You stick
more forks in it and like, no, this is the
most stressful time of year for a lot of people,
Like it doesn't have to be that way.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
But yeah, I'm trying to trying to fix that. In
my life. It's getting smaller and more intimate on the
Christmas and more spending time and less gifting and things
like that.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
But excellent idea.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
Gifts are great though, and you know what you should
buy for people is like independent art. So do you
have a whole website with different art on it?
Speaker 1 (18:02):
I do, yes, And I also want to say I
am biased, but I can appreciate talking about go more independent,
like go more direct. Yeah, yeah, I do have a website.
I am the only one who runs it. So every
now and then there is a different kind of fork
stuck in whatever widget, and I always encourage people to
tell me when that happens because I can look at
(18:24):
it from backdoors and everything. So there is portfolio, there's
a blog. There is a page of books, and also
the web shop. And it instead of Whiskey Terra Fox Strike,
it's actually called Blackbird Parlor until further notice when I
can afford the separate website.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
I love that it's Blackbird too, because, like we were
just talking about crows, I feel like there's a theme here.
I really like it. Yes, do you have any booths
coming up?
Speaker 1 (18:55):
The organizer of the Haunted Farmer's Market is doing a
creep miss market at magnuson Hanger.
Speaker 2 (19:01):
They're so genius. I want to go.
Speaker 1 (19:05):
It's Tacoma to Seattle is definitely a big jump, but
I have already been told by quite a few people
that they're really excited for that one because it's much
closer and kind of what people perceive as more centrally located.
I guess it is also two days, which I am
(19:26):
really excited for because then I get to leave stuff.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
Yeah. Yeah, it's hard. It's hard to pack and set
up that stuff.
Speaker 1 (19:35):
Oh my gosh, it's an acquired skill. It's I am
of the generation that definitely grew up playing Tetris on
the living room floor and sometimes packing the car is
a lot like that.
Speaker 2 (19:50):
Seriously, Like we had no idea when we were getting
into podcasting, like what the fuck we were doing, and
we ended up like starting to do festivals and like
these marks get things and we don't have stuff to sell,
and we're struggling. And then I'm looking around at these
people with all of this inventory and it's like stuff
(20:10):
that they've made, and I'm like, oh my god, we
just have to like pack a mini taro and like
decorations and a wheel, and but like we're struggling with
three people. So do you run the booth by yourself
or do you ever have help?
Speaker 1 (20:27):
Most of the time, I run it by myself. Every
now and then the person I was talking about. She
used to help me more, but she has a very
different job than I do, so asking her to take
up weekends as well as not fair. But every now
and then she's also there, But vast majority of the
time it's by myself.
Speaker 2 (20:49):
You don't really think about it until you're doing it.
It's like, oh my god, Like how do I even
take a break? Like you can't just leave your booth,
you know, Yeah, it's unless you have a tag tea.
Speaker 1 (21:00):
Depending on the type of events, sometimes I'm able to
put a sign up and then notify the people on
either side of me, like there is nobody else here
with me. If someone like takes a shelf, that's bad. Yeah,
But sometimes it is. I'm able to talk to someone
on either side of me and it will be like
a husband and wife team and they're perfectly fine with
(21:24):
me saying like, hey, could I step out for five minutes?
And I also typically have my service dog, so sometimes
that pre tips people off to like, yes, I need
to go real quick and then I come back and
most sometimes people are fine with that.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
That is nice too. About like the community of what
do we what do we call these things? Like mark market,
the market community that works. That's booth runner community. I
don't know, you know what I'm trying to say.
Speaker 1 (21:55):
Very occasionally there's like some weird, rotten apple of stuff,
but I'm not here to talk about that. I try
to default to the everything is fine until it's not fine,
but then that's a whole other different discussion. But yeah,
it's pretty good. It's like sometimes I can literally just
(22:16):
tell someone that my sign is up and I feel
perfectly fine with running to the bathroom or taking care
of the dog, and I have never had problems yet.
Speaker 2 (22:25):
Yeah. So if you're ever at a festival and the
booth person isn't there, like hang around a minute if
you're interested and you want to buy something, don't get
impatient with people. What got you into tarot? Like what
sparked it?
Speaker 1 (22:40):
Trying to kind of find a period of time where
I was more free to basically get a tarot deck
if I really wanted one. As I said, I used
to have a very very religious background. For lack of
a better term, there was a period of my life
where I pulled the plug just and dried, pulled everything
(23:02):
and shifted a lot of direction in my life. So
there were a couple of years where I didn't really
identify as pagan or witch or anything. But as I
started to realize I did like those terms, so if
I was going to use those terms, I should probably
do my research.
Speaker 2 (23:23):
Yeah, thank goodness.
Speaker 1 (23:25):
Yeah, that was about the time that I started noticing
that these things were popping up a little bit more
in my life where it wasn't necessarily an algorithm kind
of thing. For example, my first tarot deck was themed
around a podcast called Welcome to night Vale, and that's
(23:47):
one that I definitely recommend to pretty much everybody. It's
like a more candy colored version of it, somewhere between
the Magnus Archives and kind of eerie Indiana vibes. But
I was looking around in their merch shop and they
carried a tarot deck and I had already looked at
(24:08):
them through Etsy and other things, and theirs was twenty dollars,
I think, which was a really good price, a really
good steal. So I up and got that. And I'm
a very tactile and visual person, so it was kind
of the gateway toward this is something that I can
hold in my hand. I can do this on my terms,
but also read the articles and everything, so I think
(24:31):
it was probably revolving around that. The kind of it
also did not come with a guidebook, which I feel
like informed a lot of my developing practices of sidebook
comes after just take a look first.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
Like intuitively feel what you feel in the cards before
you yes look at the.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
Guide and that one in particular has some crazy art.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
I always feel like I was too not scared to
do taro because of religion or anything like that, and
I just felt like if I was a witch, I
would have known. I don't know why. I don't know
where that came from, but I just always was like, oh, well,
I'm not a witch, so I can't do the taro.
Speaker 1 (25:21):
I can see where you would come from with that.
That might be some kind of the word I can
only think of as like layover. That's not the right term,
kind of like bleed over, I guess from I know
a lot of people hear witch and they think of
like in a religious sense. But going into it, I
knew that witch was a little bit different, which is
(25:43):
like baker or like lawyer and things. That's the thing
that you do. I guess, yeah, but I can see
that someone who doesn't really have those connections would hear
witch and think like like priest, Like I'm not allowed
to wear that because I'm not a priest, and since
I'm not a witch, I'm not going to get one
of xyz exactly.
Speaker 2 (26:05):
Yeah. I think it's because we weren't really like exposed
to it, or I wasn't exposed to it as much
other than you know, like Sabrina the teenage Witch or
whatever little witches with powers like Halloween Town. It's like
you were a witch with powers or you weren't. And
I was like, well, I don't have Yeah, I can
see that too, magic shooting from my fingers, So like
(26:25):
I can't be a witch. And then when I got
into an adult, I was like, wait a minute, why
did I I just like discounted this thing. I was
so interested in my entire life and then now I'm
like learning, oh I can, that's not actually what that means.
Like it took me until I was like thirty to
realize that you can be a witch if you want
to be.
Speaker 1 (26:44):
That's a really interesting perspective because I was just thinking
just now that I think I mentioned that even if
we ended up at mostly the same spot, we kind
of came at it from different directions because I did
grow with things like Halloween Town. But I also in
like late teens early twenties, I watched things like Supernatural
(27:09):
and I had my own computer, so I was pirating
a little bit. We want talk, but watching things like
like The Craft.
Speaker 2 (27:17):
I didn't watch that until I was like thirty.
Speaker 1 (27:20):
That's fun movie.
Speaker 2 (27:22):
Where was I?
Speaker 1 (27:25):
So I had a little bit more of a frame
of reference for it being a thing that you learn
and then do versus kind of like the Harry Potter
dichotomy of genetic lottery.
Speaker 2 (27:38):
And yes, I know, I was always like, where's my
letter to fucking Hogwarts. I'm a huffle puff, let's go.
Speaker 1 (27:45):
Yes, I don't really do Harry Potter stuff anymore, but
a lot of the the parallels and like the structure
still is really interesting because like waiting for somebody to
tell you that your special or your life to do
something versus I don't think there were many quote unquote
(28:05):
good witches in Supernatural, but it was always like the
mom down the street decided to be a witch now,
And it was always framed as a like be very
careful with the stuff that you do versus just predisposition
or something like that.
Speaker 2 (28:22):
I don't know if I am loose with the rules
or whatever, but I'm just like I come at it
where I just feel protected and I feel like nothing
is gonna get at me, and I like set intentions
of like being protected, so I'm not too concerned with
like something bad getting in because I'm doing witchcraft or
something like that, which I think a lot of people
(28:42):
are concerned about, which is if you are, you know,
make like assault circle or do more intense things if
that's what you're concerned about. But I'm I'm just not.
Speaker 1 (28:52):
That makes sense from my experience kind of reaching out
to like witch tags on social media and different groups
and stuff. I think some of that idea comes from
other people talking about it, and like, I don't mean
to attribute any specific motivations, but it's kind of the
(29:16):
sense of when people watch a lot of movies with
witches and then someone pulls the death card, even if
you know that's not what it means, if you watch
enough of those movies, sometimes there's a very subtle sense
of but what if this time it means that?
Speaker 2 (29:35):
Right? I know, I was laughing at some movie the
other day, I don't even know what it was, and
they're like, oh, they pulled the death card and all
the dundo dumb music, and I was like, bitch, that
just means you need to like dump your boyfriend or
something like things are fine.
Speaker 1 (29:50):
Dump your boyfriend, maybe quit your job, take a road
trip that you've always wanted to do, something.
Speaker 2 (29:56):
Like that, but change it up, let something go.
Speaker 1 (30:02):
For example, on Taro's I've always read the Devil card
has not so much like oh you need to like
change everything up, or like someone's lying to you, or
really heavy things like that. It's always been about perceptions
to me, because like the Devil was not portrayed as
like a red guy with like hoofs and horns, at
(30:25):
least to the extent today until Pan came into the picture.
Oh yeah, to me, it's more about perceptions. And at
one point I was really frustrated I couldn't find like
a shirt I was looking for an event, so I
pulled a tarot card and it ended up being the
Devil and a blue screen for a second, and after
(30:49):
processing for a second, I sat down on the floor
because perspectives and everything, and I forget exactly where I
found it, but it was somewhere weird that I would
not have thought of unless I sat on the floor
and looked like back at the door in a way
I normally don't, like under the bed or like between
cushions or something. Yeah, because that's how I decorate.
Speaker 2 (31:11):
It's just aesthetic, Okay.
Speaker 1 (31:12):
Yeah, I love a good like fantasy B movie or
like sci fi B movie. But that's also when they
do things like pull death or the Tower or the Devil.
It's like, this is what it means in that universe
If I pull that later sometimes it just means go
do the dishes.
Speaker 2 (31:31):
Yeah, the perspective one who always reminds me of the
hanged demand, Like people always think the hanged man is
one of like kind of equivalent to death, and I'm like, no,
do you see like he's kind of happy, just like
upside down in his own little world like hanging out.
Speaker 1 (31:50):
Most of the illustrations for that have always looked a
little bit lemony snaket ish to me. Yeah, some weird
uncle that you have or like an member of the
Adams family. That's just I need to go think.
Speaker 2 (32:04):
Yes exactly. Is there anything you specifically want to talk
about that I haven't touched on, like about your art
or your business.
Speaker 1 (32:11):
It's something that occasionally I have difficulty like quantifying, but
it's always something that I'm interested and very willing to
talk about. Is I think I mentioned something earlier about like, yes,
I did in a sense pick this drama, but the
(32:33):
for reasons that my service dog exists. It kind of
ties into the I used to work retail and I've
done some office jobs and things, but I a lot
of the time when I talk about how I have
to do this because of my health, I know sometimes
people are kind of wary of conversation not getting like
(32:56):
super deep into that area. But whenever people hear me
thank them for coming by to visit, I try to
impress upon them that I really, I really do mean
that because it's all of the creativity and all the
things that I am able to do with scheduling and
what resources I do have. It's under a certain kind
(33:20):
of pressure of Sometimes people talk about the feast and
famine cycles and everything. I don't really have fallbacks for
when it is like the famine cycles and things. And
I've been doing this for a few years and learning
a lot of things, but it's still in terms of numbers,
(33:42):
very very not supporting. Yeah, so when people are able
to come by. I try to give people really good experience,
the really cool vibes where it's more than just visiting
a shop. I kind of joke on half joke on
social media. It's a little bit of a pocket dimension
that I try to share with people because it's part
(34:05):
of the comfortable space in my brain that I would
really love to share. And that's also a big reason
that I have been very proactive in support in promoting
the kickstarter, because once that goes through in one way
or another, that is a whole lot of work that
I don't need to do again. But also it's a
(34:30):
huge step towards sharing the particularly like comfy weird vibes
that I've been trying to share all along. So it's
the weird limbo between. It would really really help me
out in various reasons that I picked this, Yes, but
I was also kind of shoved into it. But also
(34:51):
give people a return on their investment, I think is
the best way to put that where I've always wanted
to be working for the support that I get. Yeah,
but the kickstarter is the biggest way to finally pull
the trigger of having the funding to scan everything and
all of my time to format and X y Z
(35:12):
and finally have something really big to put out.
Speaker 2 (35:15):
We were just talking about the movie Shelby Oaks that
started as a kickstarter, So like.
Speaker 1 (35:19):
Okay, I am suddenly way more interested in that movie.
Speaker 2 (35:22):
I know. That's why I'm like telling everyone about it.
And I went to see it in the movie theater
because well, if I'm gonna pay twenty dollars to go
to the movie theater, like, I'm gonna give it to
someone who worked really hard and to get there and
had to ask for help and had people help them, And.
Speaker 1 (35:37):
Yeah, that's definitely going way higher on my list.
Speaker 2 (35:41):
So your tarot deck is the liminal deck? Is that
what you're calling it?
Speaker 1 (35:45):
Yes, it's the liminal deck.
Speaker 2 (35:47):
Okay, what does that mean? Because I kind of know
what it means, but other people might not.
Speaker 1 (35:52):
Liminal a lot of the times, especially in media lately,
tends to me like a like an unsettling empty space.
You might have heard the title the back Rooms.
Speaker 2 (36:03):
Oh that's exactly what I think of.
Speaker 1 (36:04):
I'm a big fan of the back Rooms because it's
a vibe. But liminal in a more specific sense is
an in between space or like an in between stage.
Of something where we live. There used to be a
gap in the fence that we could run over, and
it was a really quick way to get like over
(36:25):
to grocery stores and pharmacy and whatever. Before they filled
that in because some stuff happened. It's a good way
to get into where we live too, so they filled
it in. I used that a little bit in my
practice because it was a perfect little, tiny liminal space
that didn't jump out. It's like, oh, look at this
as creepy. That's so cool, instead of the sense of
(36:48):
like a very concerted effort at being creepy, like the
back rooms, it's something right in between, or kind of
the sense of having one foot on either side of
a line, or.
Speaker 2 (37:00):
One foot in the living world and one in the
in the dead world. What is it the other side?
Speaker 1 (37:06):
Oh exactly. That's what I was gonna say, is.
Speaker 2 (37:09):
Oh, you probably will say it better than me. Let
me shut up.
Speaker 1 (37:12):
There is a term in witchcraft called hedgewitch that sometimes
people misinterpret that as meaning like like, oh, a witch
of like plants and hedges, and but it's actually a
term meaning someone whose practices involve like the middle world.
(37:34):
And sometimes that's like the astral or sometimes it's a
little bit of a People don't really like the term
necromancy because that's also it's also a Hollywood thing, but
in a softer sense of like speaking with spirits and
having very purposeful dreams and some practices involving flying. That's
(37:59):
the hedge, which because in like northern Europe, I think
it's especially in England, England and Scotland, they would have big,
massive fields, but then instead of just fences, they would
have something called the hedge where it would be a
strip of trees where it was a lot more dense
than everything else. So liminal is also very much a
(38:26):
kind of like the hedge in traditional English countryside where
you walk into there and it's almost like a different world,
and then you walk out on the other side and
then it's just another field and you might be in
your neighbor's cowfield or something.
Speaker 2 (38:41):
Is that what like the the gift of Homer Simpson
going into the hedge, She's like going into the other side,
is that he's different.
Speaker 1 (38:52):
I can never see that the same. I mean it,
thank you for that, You're welcome.
Speaker 2 (38:56):
He's in a liminals. That's like, that's your new symbol
for eliminals.
Speaker 1 (39:00):
Yeah, it's very much like that. And I called the
deck the liminal deck because even if I say negative
things all about like oh, this is too traditional, people
get very bogged down and just all of the rules.
Tradition isn't bad by itself, it's when you kind of
fixate on that and you don't acknowledge how it affects
(39:22):
things now. So I like to take what still works
from tradition, but combine it with new ideas. So the
Liminal Deck is very much my design toward keeping things
familiar enough where people who like taro will still recognize
it as something that they've used before. But there's a
(39:45):
lot that's different in the deck where hopefully people who
are in a really like cozy, comfortable space in tarot
can still use it and think to themselves, well, what
if it also this, or have different ideas and kind
of at least peek over the fence of things other
things that are more possible.
Speaker 2 (40:05):
I also love that there are so many different decks
and different even if it's a traditional deck, it has
it could have, Like there's so many different artworks, so
many different styles. I love having multiple different decks because,
like I kind of intuitively choose one for how I'm
feeling or whatever story we're talking about, or I have.
(40:28):
If I'm reading for somebody else, they can choose the deck.
So it's kind of nice just to have ones that
you can choose that kind of fit what you're reading.
Speaker 1 (40:38):
In the way that you describe that just now. It
kind of reminds me of when people tell stories of
going over to their grandparents' house and their grandmother might
have a whole bunch of different teacups or something like
that in their cabinet, and then different different grandkids get
to pick different ones, and everybody's going to have their
(40:59):
own vibes, and they might change them up every now
and then. But I try not to be just straight
up derogatory about traditional decks and other traditional things. But
it's kind of like you said, most people that I
know who are into taro, it's kind of like tattoos,
(41:20):
like it's very hard to have just one right once
the kickstarter goes live. I do say it in some
of the video, which I worked very hard on, and
it has some vibes that I also like to share,
but I try to make it clear that I don't
want to ever try and set myself up as an
(41:41):
authority on things. But I definitely want to contribute towards things.
I try to add something rather than just claw at
something else and take it away.
Speaker 2 (41:51):
It's always better to add to the world, right than
just like replace things. I enjoy other people's perspective too,
Like I like to see as many different perspectives as possible.
I think it's really important.
Speaker 1 (42:03):
I definitely agree with that. My brain is chaos, so
it doesn't always stick same. But yeah, it's if more
people entertained the different ideas or at least tried new things,
and I think we'd be a lot better off.
Speaker 2 (42:18):
Yeah. Do you have a Tarot deck right now? Would
you like to pull a card?
Speaker 1 (42:23):
I know exactly where the Nightvale deck that I referenced
actually is awesome and it's the kind of old where
the string broke and everything. But I still have the bag.
Speaker 2 (42:34):
Oh, I love that. Do you do taroll with other
people or for other people? Often?
Speaker 1 (42:40):
I do have a few listings, like on my coffee page.
I have small readings and then I do offer the
really large Celtic cross spread.
Speaker 2 (42:53):
Ooh.
Speaker 1 (42:54):
Most of the time it's for myself and I used
to do readings at my booth. But because of numbers
and other like logistics and my attention span, I don't
do that in person anymore unless there's a helper with me,
just in case that's yeah, something explodes, then we have
to chase paper and stuff like that.
Speaker 2 (43:16):
Yeah, I And we usually just either like pull a
card for whatever we were talking about or whatever somebody
needs to hear who's listening right now, Like you don't
specifically have to read for me, okay.
Speaker 1 (43:29):
I do like the idea of I sometimes I do
unconventional readings where either someone is holding a question in
their head or just a very general reading something that
when people are new to Taro, I try to let
them know that yes or no questions are not a
(43:51):
good idea because it's not supposed to be like a
magic able, I guess. But if the interpretation of a
card or a spread of cards makes them think of something,
and it's probably something that they need to think about.
Speaker 2 (44:06):
Mm hmm.
Speaker 1 (44:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (44:07):
That's kind of what I always tell people to, like,
we can pretty much relate any card to something that's
going on in your question. Just give me a little
time to think about it, Like I I could piece
something together for you.
Speaker 1 (44:19):
So I think what I'm going to do is do
a reading for anyone who's listening, and it might actually
be a case of it applies to a bunch of
different people. So that's why I kind of wanted to
describe it as if it makes you think of something,
then it's probably something that you need to think about.
Speaker 2 (44:43):
Okay, So let's all send our energy from the past
and the future and the present.
Speaker 1 (44:48):
And for you that can see just I don't know
if they make the stick anymore, because they did like
a different version, but that's the back of it right there.
Speaker 2 (44:59):
Oh oh, it's an eyeball.
Speaker 1 (45:03):
Let's go with one. And because we have also talked
a lot about booth work today, I'm gonna go with
the bottom card from a basic.
Speaker 2 (45:15):
Shuffle I just did, Okay, the kabooth.
Speaker 1 (45:20):
So I have two of Wands reversed.
Speaker 2 (45:24):
That's weird. We literally were talking about two of wands,
weren't we.
Speaker 1 (45:29):
Yes, that's in the liminal deck that we'll be running
on kickstarters starting on Wednesday. My version of the two
of Wands is the person that is very heavily masked up,
has a black hoodie and everything, but their eyes are
both glowing shiny glowy eye and upright, it's very much
(45:54):
having foresight, where it's the second step of some kind
of journey me something moral or philosophical, kind of a
take action, but you don't have to finish it right
now as long as you take the countep so reverse.
(46:16):
I would mostly interpret that as there's something that you
could be doing that you do have the values towards
doing it, but there's some kind of excuse that you
have that isn't necessarily malicious, but deeper down than however
you normally talk to yourself, you kind of know that
(46:37):
it's not a very good excuse or you could do
something to get past it eventually. So it's not necessarily
a hey, you're not doing this or you're a horrible person.
It's more of a take a minute. You probably know
that you probably know that this reason is not as
(46:58):
solid as you think, So there's there's some way that
you can take a next step in something that you
really value. You're just really hesitating right now.
Speaker 2 (47:10):
Can you describe it too? Because for people who can't see.
Speaker 1 (47:13):
It, the podcast that this illustration is from is set
in like southwest, United States, so it's kind of desert
Arizona Ish and there's a big giant crag in the ground,
a cravass like it probably big enough to be like
a tourist attraction, like you take a hike and everything,
(47:34):
but everything is glowing green. And in the context of
the story, it's called Raidon Canyon.
Speaker 2 (47:43):
Actually, oh okay, that makes sense, the green glowy.
Speaker 1 (47:47):
And it is built as a tourist attraction. So I
would kind of put that hand in hand with if
you're gonna go there, you had better keep going, like
it could be fine, but you gotta keep going. So
reversed intwo of ones, especially with the artwork that I
have in here, kind of paired with how I tend
(48:07):
to interpret that card is you know exactly what's going on.
You see the glow around you, You know that you
are in some place called raid On Canyon, So why
aren't you still moving? And you don't have to panic
and move, but you should probably go ahead and take
(48:27):
the next steps. And for everybody out there who also
has ADHD, I wish you the best of luck in
figuring out what it is you forgot, because I'm trying
to do that too.
Speaker 2 (48:41):
That's like kind of why I was laughing like, go ahead,
take the next step. It's not that hard. Because I
was listening to a podcast the other day and that
was talking about like, like just do the first step
of something like plan out like the entire steps, or
just think about what the very first step would be
and just do that, like just take the first that
(49:04):
And so I'm like, okay. Now you're saying like, okay,
just take the next step, and I'm like, away, I
just took the first one.
Speaker 1 (49:13):
I can't understand that. That's even people who approach tarot
as more of a psychological thing. I've had experiences with
people who we'd get on the same page, like, yes,
I'm pagan, you don't have to be. We can both
use tarot and talk about it. I've had some interesting
experiences with people where they would pull a card from
(49:35):
their own deck and it would be something like wheel
of Fortune, and then we talk about that, and then
I would shuffle and pull a card from my deck
and it would be wheel of Fortune.
Speaker 2 (49:47):
That's I love when that shit happens.
Speaker 1 (49:49):
Stuff happens, and we might both be partially incorrect. It
might be something that's not psychological, it might not be
something that's pagan, but in that moments something is happening.
Speaker 2 (50:03):
Yeah, we've I've had never had that happen specifically, But
it seems like whenever like I draw a card, or
my and my guest draws a card, or sometimes one
of them had drew like a ruin, it seems to
be like the interpretations kind of go together, or they're
like perfectly matched or paired, or like have the same
(50:23):
type of themes or like the same imagery even sometimes
and I'm like, dang, like how does that even work?
We're like over the computer and we're pulling like the
same kind of card with the same things.
Speaker 1 (50:36):
That's the and it touches a little bit more on
the the witchery side of things. But I am also
very much a proponent of the idea that not everything
is external magic, but sometimes it kind of pokes energy
that we already have inside us that kind of tunes
(51:01):
us toward each other, I guess would be the closest
way I could describe that. Yeah, if it was simply
external things, then there would be much less that, for example,
worked through the computer screen, but people can connect a
lot deeper than is often promoted, and when people are
(51:26):
very interested in the topic, it sparks more conversations of well,
what is energy? Like how do people connect? How do
I use the past to influence the future versus I
bought a rock and it's blue that means x y Z.
Speaker 2 (51:44):
Or you could buy a rock and someone can tell
you it's for that and then yeah, this rock is
telling me it's for this completely other thing, and that's
fine too.
Speaker 1 (51:53):
I could also talk at length of like lists of
things that people go by ten not to gravitate towards
like witchcraft groups and things, because I'm definitely the person
who sees a list and just goes.
Speaker 2 (52:10):
Why yeah, suspicious.
Speaker 1 (52:13):
But from my perspective approaching occult subjects, it's more of
a how does it interact with your own energy? Like
one one rock that you really hate might do wonderful
things for me. One tea that's great for you might
be really disgusting and put me in a bad mood.
(52:34):
So everybody has to, for an example, find the tarot
deck that resonates with them. Don't just pop over to
the nearest store that carries them and get the best seller, like.
Speaker 2 (52:46):
Order the generic on Amazon. Oh yeah, I've never done
that before ever, Like, don't look at me, what do
you mean.
Speaker 1 (52:55):
It's that's a choice. If it's accessible, that's it is.
Speaker 2 (53:00):
The first deck I ever bought myself, I think was
from Amazon. But you guys can't judge me because I
just didn't know yet. I wasn't fully immersed in this world,
and you know, yeah.
Speaker 1 (53:11):
It's I obviously I am an independent seller, an artisan
and everything like that. I was still poke around in
spirit of Halloween. But it's still if I see something,
I try to consciously think, Okay, is this the choice
that I'm really going to make?
Speaker 2 (53:30):
Yes, exactly, And then also can I make another choice
and support maybe someone smaller as well. Also, this did
remind me of like one of the rules that I
hate that everyone always says about taro is that you
have to be gifted your tarot deck and you can't
buy your own.
Speaker 1 (53:48):
I can understand some of the historical context of that.
I don't know how true it is, but it's plausible.
At least there was a time, and I'm sure there's
still some places that you go out and just buy
your own tarot deck that could put you in a
lot of danger. But if you are gifted a Tarot deck,
that means you are pretty much in a mostly safe space,
(54:13):
or you at least know someone safe enough that you
can mention you would like to have a Tarot deck,
and then they can go out and pick one.
Speaker 2 (54:21):
Up for you. I don't think it's necessary though at all.
Speaker 1 (54:24):
I don't think it's totally necessary. It's if that directly
applies to someone, I can understand it, But as a
blanket rule, I don't think that's really relevant anymore.
Speaker 2 (54:35):
I feel like it kind of sort of probably came
from maybe when they weren't as popular in the stores
and you couldn't just go out and buy one, like
maybe you had a family deck that was like passed
down or whatever. But I don't think it was say
that too. I don't think it should ever be a
rule rule. So definitely, like if you're interested in this
liminal deck, go on the kickstarter and donate to it
(54:55):
so you can buy it. That would help for yourself.
Speaker 1 (54:58):
A lot of things, so much. Of course, I can
talk also for a really long time about how it
would add great things to the shop and things that
I don't have to draw again. I could keep getting
prints and make them accessible to people. But it's also
instead of kind of just fitting and dwelling on things
(55:19):
that I don't like in tarot subjects and spheres of things.
I have decided to go through a lot of time
and effort to add something, to add another alternative that
traditional can be fine, but I always want to encourage
people to try something new and something that doesn't hold
(55:45):
your hand, something that doesn't really spoon feed you. Yeah,
and the structure is the same, but there are enough
changes where hopefully it helps people think a little bit
more of their specific situation.
Speaker 2 (56:04):
Yeah, give them a little different perspective. Maybe exactly? Is
that like the biggest place people can find you as Instagram?
Speaker 1 (56:12):
The biggest places are Instagram. I try to stay where
aware of not everybody uses that all the time. So
the main areas are Instagram, the main website, Blackbird Parlor.
I also have a YouTube channel that I had a
lot of technical difficulties earlier, but once those are ironed
out and I can spend more time on it, that
(56:34):
will be more active.
Speaker 2 (56:35):
They're used to technical difficulties around here, so if they're
one of our listeners, they'll be fine.
Speaker 1 (56:39):
It makes me feel better mainly Instagram, but if I
have a comment or some kind of feedback on pretty
much anywhere else you can find me. Things are just
small enough. I think where I really love to be
able to take the time to actually respond to that
is I don't think I will wake up anytime soon,
(57:01):
and there's like ten thousands of commons and things like that.
Hopefully at that point you never know, hire an intern.
I don't know. But I really like to have feedback
and have a back and forth pretty much anywhere, but
Instagram is the easiest.
Speaker 2 (57:16):
Place to do that.
Speaker 1 (57:17):
And you are at that is at whiskey w h
I s k E y whiskey Tara t e r
R A fox trot.
Speaker 2 (57:28):
I was trying to say where wolves I'm just renaming you.
Speaker 1 (57:33):
Think of like the pointy orange where fox somewhere. But
that's yes, speaking of ADHD.
Speaker 2 (57:40):
But you're gonna have to add a were wolf t
your dec.
Speaker 1 (57:45):
I think there's you're reminding me of things in my
college sketchbooks. Oh I need to make notes on later.
Speaker 2 (57:52):
But maybe I'm just reading your mind.
Speaker 1 (57:55):
Maybe reading my sketch books a terrifying place to be
one day, if the stars aligned for it, I would
love to put out a very small line of whiskey
because I don't drink a lot, but I know it.
What is my favorites?
Speaker 2 (58:14):
But liminal whiskey.
Speaker 1 (58:16):
Oh yeah, that's that sounds like a potion that would
do interesting things.
Speaker 2 (58:22):
It does. Whiskey is kind of liminal if you think
about it, because it just sits in a.
Speaker 1 (58:27):
Barrel's Irish whiskey. At least it uses pete from the bogs.
Speaker 2 (58:32):
So if that's very liminal.
Speaker 1 (58:34):
If someone says like, oh, whiskey takes tastes like dirt,
you should ask them if they're actually a fan of whiskey,
because if someone likes it, they might say it tastes
like dirt and it's fine, and if they don't, they
just like, okay, that is very liminal. It could go
either way.
Speaker 2 (58:51):
Have a creepy day. Thank you so much. That was
so much fun.
Speaker 1 (58:55):
It was great.
Speaker 2 (58:58):
So when we I messaged you, I think after or
you messaged me. I can't remember who messaged you after
we met, because I like asked you if you wanted
to be interviewed on the podcast and whatever, so I
was like reaching out to you, I think. But we
were chatting a little bit and you were saying something
about your tent collapsed and everything was chaos and I
(59:21):
like fully knew who I was talking to, Like I
knew you were the person who was creating the tarot deck,
like fully knew who you were. But then I like
responded and I was like, oh my god, do you
fuck with Tarrell? Like this seems like a tower card situation.
And then I was so embarrassed.
Speaker 1 (59:37):
After that is perfectly fine. I think I said something
to that effect. It's I try not to just frame
everything in terms of ADHD, but it's I was a
very late diagnosis in life, so sometimes when things like
that happen with other people, I tried to be very
(59:58):
vocally understanding m
Sometimes in taro and other practices, people can get very
rigid in things where they'll pull a card and it
will mean only exactly what they have memorized. It means yeah,
and there may be like no ill intention with that.
But sometimes people just I don't think rut is the
right word. But it's the closest where they're they're following
(00:22):
the guidelines right, so they're doing it correctly versus what
are the fluffy gray lines on the outside.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Yeah, they're like the people that follow the recipe to
the tea and like, don't add extra garlic, you know
what I mean?
Speaker 1 (00:35):
Yeah, it's David right, it is David correct from whiskey.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
What is it?
Speaker 1 (00:43):
Whiskey Tara, foxtrot?
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Thank you. I kept saying whiskey fox trot Tara, and
I was like, no, that's the wrong order. Because I'm
slightly dyslexic.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
That's I People come up all the time and they
kind of just I can see their whole brain squint
at the sign, like, yes, this this is good.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
Yes. I met you at the Tacoma Haunted Farmer's Market. Yes,
And I walked past your booth and I saw whiskey first,
and I was like oh whiskey, Okay, what's this about?
And then I saw like tarot stuff. Yeah, I know,
like dang iet no samples, I'm walking away, but no.
Then your art like drew me in. Thank you, I
(01:23):
think pretty much. The first thing I saw I bought,
which was the Mothman print, and it was so cute.
And I was just seeing Mothman stuff everywhere all over
in every booth and I was eyeballing everything and like
nothing was just like hitting it was I don't know.
And then I saw that and it's just a little
Mothman and he's like on a lamp post, like on
(01:46):
the light. It was just so cute, so I was like,
I have to buy this something.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
I like to share with people about that one, and
especially since you mentioned it and you were leaning that way.
The reference photo for that one was actually a cat
looking over the edge of a table, and that kind
of ties into I get a lot of kids and
teenagers talking about like art tips and unconnectional ways to
do things, but I feel like using that reference photo
(02:14):
kind of set it apart from some of the other
things people see with Mothman. And I've had people comment
specifically on that before.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
Yeah, maybe That's what drew by to it because I
love cats.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
Too, So I don't really trust anyone who like, flat
out like hates cats. Like if you're not a cat person,
that's one thing. But I grew up with a bunch
of guys like oh I hate casting. That ties into
some other things, but it's always interesting.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
I know, Well, my co host is allergic. No, she's
actually really allergic. She's like, I actually do like cats,
but I just can't. I can't get close to them
or I'll literally die.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
I've also noticed that some I know at least a
couple people that are deathly allergic to cats, and there
are some of the most cat loving people I have
ever met, and that is really unfortunate. It would be
so sad they come over and we open all the windows.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
And Okay, So I ended up buying this print, and
it wasn't the large one like I wanted because I
was on a little bit of a budget. So I
had to ask you if there was a smaller print,
which is kind of sometimes embarrassing because I'm like, hey,
can I ask something cheaper?
Speaker 1 (03:30):
Yeah. That is the biggest reason that I have like
more than a couple of different sizes because someone eventually
is going to come through and either want a really
tiny one that kind of just fits in the exact
right place, or a really big one that they're going
to put somewhere really weird and tell me about it
(03:51):
later and ask great.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
Yeah, And the big one just drew me in, Like
I don't know if I would have maybe seen it
if it was just the smaller one out. But then
we got to chatting and you told me that you're
into tarot and you are actually designing your own tarot deck.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
Yes, and it's I want to say it's a round
sixty percent done. I would have to do math real
quick on that, but so I'll say that for later.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
How many cards seventy two or seventy eight.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
It's seventy eight cards plus a couple more. Because the
back as well as the typography are also hand drawn.
I decided that I'm going to finish everything before the
end of the year, but also at the same time
put all the specs out there for the Kickstarter so
that people can watch it get finished and jump on
(04:43):
it right as soon as it's available. Because it's also
since it's traditional, I have to scan each one at
a local company which adds other layers.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
I never even thought about the process of making a
a Darrow deck a Tarot deck, and like getting it made,
doing the actual art, and like getting it printed onto cards,
Like what type of cards? Where does that all happen?
This is a pretty in depth process, huh.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
Definitely. Most of the time, when I see other people
doing a project like this, it's either an oracle deck,
which is more like a fifty two cards, or even
sometimes people start out with twenty cards and then they
add booster packs or something like that. When I've seen
people do the traditional seventy eight, it's much smaller pieces,
(05:33):
more like an eight x ten for each one. But
each one of these is twelve by sixteen, And I
have no idea where that measurement came up, but that's
what it started and what I'm sticking with. I feel
like it might have made things a little bit more
complicated than necessary, but it also lets me get in
(05:54):
with a lot of other details that doing things more
of a normal size would not necessary. Early.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
Let me, is it like a traditional Tarot deck where
it's the bigger cards, or is it a different size
even than that it.
Speaker 1 (06:06):
Is the long tarot cards, the traditional size, and I'm
looking forward to formatting everything. The aspect ratio is different,
so it'll be mostly the finished piece, the digital scan,
and then down at the bottom will be the typography
from a different piece.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
So let's talk about some of the art work that's
on the cards. To me, they look super haunting and oh,
I just love it, like dark but also beautiful.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
My work, for some reason, attracts a lot of kids.
Most of the time, I say, oh, my work attracts
a lot of kids, and people assume that I mean
the stuffed animal section, and it's actually some of the
dark art that has I'm really bad at telling ages,
but I want to say, like eight and nine year
olds come up and look a lot closer at things,
(06:58):
and it's really fascina to have even just tiny conversations
with them about like what it reminds them of or
like if they do like Halloween, we can talk about
how like spooky isn't isn't necessarily bad and it Yeah,
the spooky that they're seeing in the Princiet, it kind
of makes them think more about things versus like monsters
(07:19):
straight out right.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
Yeah, that's why, like the word haunting I think came
to me, but that might that might be scary to
some people, but for me, haunting means like beautiful. Oh
that reminds me. In the beginning, before we even even
started recording. Oh yeah, it was like you reminded me
of Shelby Oaks because it's not giving anything away, but
there's a shiny there's a shiny eye situation in that movie,
(07:41):
and that looks exactly like that.
Speaker 1 (07:43):
I moved the little webcam and I try to put
my glasses back on for blue light stuff, and it
is crazy.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
Oh my goodness, it looks like you've on purpose put
like moving googly eyes on there.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
I'm gonna actually take those off because it looks like
I'm staring at you really pointed.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
I'm not creeped out.
Speaker 1 (08:02):
I might creep myself out, so I'm okay with that.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
I could see that. Circling back around to what you
were saying about the kids being attracted to your artwork.
A lot of it is like animal related. Yes, what's
your favorite animal to use in the artwork?
Speaker 1 (08:18):
I think the easiest would probably be foxes because I
grew up a lot drawing dogs and I was a
big neopet kind of kid, and those are all sorts
of different mishmash of different animals, but a lot of
them are dogs, like the back legs and everything. It
(08:39):
just translated as I got older, probably the foxes and
the crows.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
Crows, I love them.
Speaker 1 (08:46):
When I got away from drawing like dragons so much,
that was what was more popular in finding books at
the library. That was how to draw fifty dogs, or
like how to draw fifty birds. And then I found
the favorites.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
I like that. I like that you answered fox because
obviously it's in your name. Oh yes, And I also
love crows. I want to see what is the card
with the crow on it?
Speaker 1 (09:12):
Crows are dominant in the wands suit. Okay, a lot
of that suit has to do with technology and cameras,
and then also moving over to like the LEDs in
different technology, and then moving over to candles and such.
But the page night and then what's typically the King
(09:34):
and the queen are all crows, oh, crows, For obvious reasons.
It kind of represents the intelligence factor of things. The
very hands on the kind of bridging the gap between
pentacles and wands is the idea of doing things with
your hands can be a spiritual action kind of in
(09:56):
an engage your brain type of way. So in the
wands suit, it very naturally organically drifted over to the
ace of wands is a candle, but the two of
wands is a very kind of protest coated individual with
(10:18):
mask and hoodie and everything with two glowing eyes, because
sometimes you have to just there would be no technology
if someone didn't have the idea first. So it's kind
of the both sides of the coin of you can
be completely logical, but you have to have kind of
that spark of creativity, which to me translates to what
(10:40):
spirituality should really be. It's the application of things, not
just the purely cerebral aspect of things.
Speaker 2 (10:47):
Yeah, I love that you were just we were talking
about your glowing eyes, and then we ended up talking
about we're not on video for everyone to see, but
we can see each other. And David was wearing glasses
and there was like a reflection that made him look
like he had these two glowing eyes that were just
bearing into my soul.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
I think in terms of stories a lot, but especially
since I'm in my thirties and its twenty twenty five,
I do make a lot of movie and video game references,
so just putting that out there before I say, there
is a new Silent Hill game that came out that
involves a very traditionally Japanese like historically dressed essentially fox
(11:33):
guy where he's human except for a fox mask and
like long white kimono and everything. That might not be the.
Speaker 2 (11:40):
Right word, but I don't know. Someone will tell us.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
He's very distracting. I can, I can put it that
way and in the best way. But he's all in
white and has white hair and everything. The whites of
his eyes are black, and then his irises are like
a pale blue glow, very similar to how that was.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
It's so creepy but like cool.
Speaker 1 (12:06):
A big part of why I wanted to start the deck,
other than making something that I wanted to actually use,
was sometimes in taro and other practices, people can get
very rigid in things where they'll pull a card and
it will mean only exactly what they have memorized. It
means yeah, and there may be like no ill intention
(12:30):
with that, but sometimes people just I don't think rut
is the right word, but it's the closest where they're
following the guidelines right, So they're doing it correctly versus
what are the fluffy gray lines on the outside.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
Yeah, they're like the people that follow the recipe to
the tea and like, don't add extra garlic, you know
what I mean.
Speaker 1 (12:51):
Yeah, too many people tend to treat everything like it's
baking and you have to do everything with precision. But yeah,
more in life is more like cooking, where you can
you can fudge it a little bit, you can make substitutions,
and even in kind of the baking framework, if you
know exactly why it works, then you can do other
(13:12):
things on top of it. And in my experience, people
kind of get a little afraid of that, but they
don't they don't want to admit that that's what it is,
so they buy the guidebook where they buy their fifth
deck that's a redraw of the traditional ones.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
I have not done taro for very long. It's only
been like since we started the podcast, Okay, so like
maybe five years at this point. So we got the
interpretation books so that we could kind of like learn
as we go, So when we draw a card, we
kind of read from that or even like google things,
or we'll look at the smaller interpretation books that usually
(13:51):
come with the deck, so we'll use like a couple
of different things. But then as well is look at
the card and kind of see what we feel about it,
or add little in sorts of things kind of relating
it to what we're talking about. So it kind of
it makes it stick in your brain a little bit more.
But also you're kind of adding your own interpretations to
(14:16):
the interpretations, if that made any sense.
Speaker 1 (14:19):
Just a preface. I don't remember exactly when I consider
myself having started tarots, So you may actually have more
experience with it than I do, but we probably just
came at it from similar directions but different backgrounds, and
everybody has that. In short, I have a very religious background,
(14:40):
oh shit, in a mainstream religion. I don't want to
turn the whole conversation into just about that particular religion
because it's very easy to do.
Speaker 2 (14:51):
Yeah, okay, I mean we go there all the time anyway,
So that's right.
Speaker 1 (14:55):
I'd be happy to just with the way my brain
works that, don't want to just turn it into the
an anti sermon.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
Let me put it that way, right, Yeah, we're talking
about art here exactly.
Speaker 1 (15:09):
Yeah, sometimes people can bring the baggage of that kind
of thing into other practices where even though it's not
under that heading anymore and not under that label, they
can find things like how to do taro and be
very like, no, we got to do it buy the book. Yeah,
(15:31):
you don't have to anyway, because.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
That's like you were doing it by the Bible, and
like taro is not the interpretation book. Isn't the Bible?
Like you you feel it.
Speaker 1 (15:41):
Yeah, that's the like there there's there are good things
in every like realm of things spiritually and otherwise, but
you got to make some decisions with like does that
mean it's exclusive to this one bucket over here? And sometimes,
especially when people have had the type of background that
(16:01):
I have, it can be really hard to get away
from the feeling of like all this this manual wasn't it,
So we need to find a different manual and follow
it like we did the other one. And yeah, that
also ain't it. But everyone has to go through that process.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
Write your own manual and then don't follow that either. Yeah,
it's keep changing it, make up new rules every day.
That's how I live my life. Plot twist.
Speaker 1 (16:30):
Someone ONTs paraphrased it for me where I was saying
something about like positive chaos, and he kind of stopped
went so basically basically freedom where people hear the word
chaos and think, oh, things exploding and everything going wrong,
Like no, positive practical chaos is rolling with things and
(16:51):
not being hung up on what actually keeps you from
your goals, which is very natural, I guess, and I'm
a big proponent of humans are supposed to hibernate. Then
big box stores came along, stuck a wrench in that
and went, no, you have to work over Christmas, Like, no,
(17:12):
that's that's not how it should be.
Speaker 2 (17:14):
I know, even though Christmas was stolen from the Pagans whatever,
we should still shouldn't have to work.
Speaker 1 (17:22):
You what I know about it promotes very much a
like getting ready to hibernate kind of thing. You stick
more forks in it and like, no, this is the
most stressful time of year for a lot of people,
Like it doesn't have to be that way.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
But yeah, I'm trying to trying to fix that. In
my life. It's getting smaller and more intimate on the
Christmas and more spending time and less gifting and things
like that.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
But excellent idea.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
Gifts are great though, and you know what you should
buy for people is like independent art. So do you
have a whole website with different art on it?
Speaker 1 (18:02):
I do, yes, And I also want to say I
am biased, but I can appreciate talking about go more independent,
like go more direct. Yeah, yeah, I do have a website.
I am the only one who runs it. So every
now and then there is a different kind of fork
stuck in whatever widget, and I always encourage people to
tell me when that happens because I can look at
(18:24):
it from backdoors and everything. So there is portfolio, there's
a blog. There is a page of books, and also
the web shop. And it instead of Whiskey Terra Fox Strike,
it's actually called Blackbird Parlor until further notice when I
can afford the separate website.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
I love that it's Blackbird too, because, like we were
just talking about crows, I feel like there's a theme here.
I really like it. Yes, do you have any booths
coming up?
Speaker 1 (18:55):
The organizer of the Haunted Farmer's Market is doing a
creep miss market at magnuson Hanger.
Speaker 2 (19:01):
They're so genius. I want to go.
Speaker 1 (19:05):
It's Tacoma to Seattle is definitely a big jump, but
I have already been told by quite a few people
that they're really excited for that one because it's much
closer and kind of what people perceive as more centrally located.
I guess it is also two days, which I am
(19:26):
really excited for because then I get to leave stuff.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
Yeah. Yeah, it's hard. It's hard to pack and set
up that stuff.
Speaker 1 (19:35):
Oh my gosh, it's an acquired skill. It's I am
of the generation that definitely grew up playing Tetris on
the living room floor and sometimes packing the car is
a lot like that.
Speaker 2 (19:50):
Seriously, Like we had no idea when we were getting
into podcasting, like what the fuck we were doing, and
we ended up like starting to do festivals and like
these marks get things and we don't have stuff to sell,
and we're struggling. And then I'm looking around at these
people with all of this inventory and it's like stuff
(20:10):
that they've made, and I'm like, oh my god, we
just have to like pack a mini taro and like
decorations and a wheel, and but like we're struggling with
three people. So do you run the booth by yourself
or do you ever have help?
Speaker 1 (20:27):
Most of the time, I run it by myself. Every
now and then the person I was talking about. She
used to help me more, but she has a very
different job than I do, so asking her to take
up weekends as well as not fair. But every now
and then she's also there, But vast majority of the
time it's by myself.
Speaker 2 (20:49):
You don't really think about it until you're doing it.
It's like, oh my god, Like how do I even
take a break? Like you can't just leave your booth,
you know, Yeah, it's unless you have a tag tea.
Speaker 1 (21:00):
Depending on the type of events, sometimes I'm able to
put a sign up and then notify the people on
either side of me, like there is nobody else here
with me. If someone like takes a shelf, that's bad. Yeah,
But sometimes it is. I'm able to talk to someone
on either side of me and it will be like
a husband and wife team and they're perfectly fine with
(21:24):
me saying like, hey, could I step out for five minutes?
And I also typically have my service dog, so sometimes
that pre tips people off to like, yes, I need
to go real quick and then I come back and
most sometimes people are fine with that.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
That is nice too. About like the community of what
do we what do we call these things? Like mark market,
the market community that works. That's booth runner community. I
don't know, you know what I'm trying to say.
Speaker 1 (21:55):
Very occasionally there's like some weird, rotten apple of stuff,
but I'm not here to talk about that. I try
to default to the everything is fine until it's not fine,
but then that's a whole other different discussion. But yeah,
it's pretty good. It's like sometimes I can literally just
(22:16):
tell someone that my sign is up and I feel
perfectly fine with running to the bathroom or taking care
of the dog, and I have never had problems yet.
Speaker 2 (22:25):
Yeah. So if you're ever at a festival and the
booth person isn't there, like hang around a minute if
you're interested and you want to buy something, don't get
impatient with people. What got you into tarot? Like what
sparked it?
Speaker 1 (22:40):
Trying to kind of find a period of time where
I was more free to basically get a tarot deck
if I really wanted one. As I said, I used
to have a very very religious background. For lack of
a better term, there was a period of my life
where I pulled the plug just and dried, pulled everything
(23:02):
and shifted a lot of direction in my life. So
there were a couple of years where I didn't really
identify as pagan or witch or anything. But as I
started to realize I did like those terms, so if
I was going to use those terms, I should probably
do my research.
Speaker 2 (23:23):
Yeah, thank goodness.
Speaker 1 (23:25):
Yeah, that was about the time that I started noticing
that these things were popping up a little bit more
in my life where it wasn't necessarily an algorithm kind
of thing. For example, my first tarot deck was themed
around a podcast called Welcome to night Vale, and that's
(23:47):
one that I definitely recommend to pretty much everybody. It's
like a more candy colored version of it, somewhere between
the Magnus Archives and kind of eerie Indiana vibes. But
I was looking around in their merch shop and they
carried a tarot deck and I had already looked at
(24:08):
them through Etsy and other things, and theirs was twenty dollars,
I think, which was a really good price, a really
good steal. So I up and got that. And I'm
a very tactile and visual person, so it was kind
of the gateway toward this is something that I can
hold in my hand. I can do this on my terms,
but also read the articles and everything, so I think
(24:31):
it was probably revolving around that. The kind of it
also did not come with a guidebook, which I feel
like informed a lot of my developing practices of sidebook
comes after just take a look first.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
Like intuitively feel what you feel in the cards before
you yes look at the.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
Guide and that one in particular has some crazy art.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
I always feel like I was too not scared to
do taro because of religion or anything like that, and
I just felt like if I was a witch, I
would have known. I don't know why. I don't know
where that came from, but I just always was like, oh, well,
I'm not a witch, so I can't do the taro.
Speaker 1 (25:21):
I can see where you would come from with that.
That might be some kind of the word I can
only think of as like layover. That's not the right term,
kind of like bleed over, I guess from I know
a lot of people hear witch and they think of
like in a religious sense. But going into it, I
knew that witch was a little bit different, which is
(25:43):
like baker or like lawyer and things. That's the thing
that you do. I guess, yeah, but I can see
that someone who doesn't really have those connections would hear
witch and think like like priest, Like I'm not allowed
to wear that because I'm not a priest, and since
I'm not a witch, I'm not going to get one
of xyz exactly.
Speaker 2 (26:05):
Yeah. I think it's because we weren't really like exposed
to it, or I wasn't exposed to it as much
other than you know, like Sabrina the teenage Witch or
whatever little witches with powers like Halloween Town. It's like
you were a witch with powers or you weren't. And
I was like, well, I don't have Yeah, I can
see that too, magic shooting from my fingers, So like
(26:25):
I can't be a witch. And then when I got
into an adult, I was like, wait a minute, why
did I I just like discounted this thing. I was
so interested in my entire life and then now I'm
like learning, oh I can, that's not actually what that means.
Like it took me until I was like thirty to
realize that you can be a witch if you want
to be.
Speaker 1 (26:44):
That's a really interesting perspective because I was just thinking
just now that I think I mentioned that even if
we ended up at mostly the same spot, we kind
of came at it from different directions because I did
grow with things like Halloween Town. But I also in
like late teens early twenties, I watched things like Supernatural
(27:09):
and I had my own computer, so I was pirating
a little bit. We want talk, but watching things like
like The Craft.
Speaker 2 (27:17):
I didn't watch that until I was like thirty.
Speaker 1 (27:20):
That's fun movie.
Speaker 2 (27:22):
Where was I?
Speaker 1 (27:25):
So I had a little bit more of a frame
of reference for it being a thing that you learn
and then do versus kind of like the Harry Potter
dichotomy of genetic lottery.
Speaker 2 (27:38):
And yes, I know, I was always like, where's my
letter to fucking Hogwarts. I'm a huffle puff, let's go.
Speaker 1 (27:45):
Yes, I don't really do Harry Potter stuff anymore, but
a lot of the the parallels and like the structure
still is really interesting because like waiting for somebody to
tell you that your special or your life to do
something versus I don't think there were many quote unquote
(28:05):
good witches in Supernatural, but it was always like the
mom down the street decided to be a witch now,
And it was always framed as a like be very
careful with the stuff that you do versus just predisposition
or something like that.
Speaker 2 (28:22):
I don't know if I am loose with the rules
or whatever, but I'm just like I come at it
where I just feel protected and I feel like nothing
is gonna get at me, and I like set intentions
of like being protected, so I'm not too concerned with
like something bad getting in because I'm doing witchcraft or
something like that, which I think a lot of people
(28:42):
are concerned about, which is if you are, you know,
make like assault circle or do more intense things if
that's what you're concerned about. But I'm I'm just not.
Speaker 1 (28:52):
That makes sense from my experience kind of reaching out
to like witch tags on social media and different groups
and stuff. I think some of that idea comes from
other people talking about it, and like, I don't mean
to attribute any specific motivations, but it's kind of the
(29:16):
sense of when people watch a lot of movies with
witches and then someone pulls the death card, even if
you know that's not what it means, if you watch
enough of those movies, sometimes there's a very subtle sense
of but what if this time it means that?
Speaker 2 (29:35):
Right? I know, I was laughing at some movie the
other day, I don't even know what it was, and
they're like, oh, they pulled the death card and all
the dundo dumb music, and I was like, bitch, that
just means you need to like dump your boyfriend or
something like things are fine.
Speaker 1 (29:50):
Dump your boyfriend, maybe quit your job, take a road
trip that you've always wanted to do, something.
Speaker 2 (29:56):
Like that, but change it up, let something go.
Speaker 1 (30:02):
For example, on Taro's I've always read the Devil card
has not so much like oh you need to like
change everything up, or like someone's lying to you, or
really heavy things like that. It's always been about perceptions
to me, because like the Devil was not portrayed as
like a red guy with like hoofs and horns, at
(30:25):
least to the extent today until Pan came into the picture.
Oh yeah, to me, it's more about perceptions. And at
one point I was really frustrated I couldn't find like
a shirt I was looking for an event, so I
pulled a tarot card and it ended up being the
Devil and a blue screen for a second, and after
(30:49):
processing for a second, I sat down on the floor
because perspectives and everything, and I forget exactly where I
found it, but it was somewhere weird that I would
not have thought of unless I sat on the floor
and looked like back at the door in a way
I normally don't, like under the bed or like between
cushions or something. Yeah, because that's how I decorate.
Speaker 2 (31:11):
It's just aesthetic, Okay.
Speaker 1 (31:12):
Yeah, I love a good like fantasy B movie or
like sci fi B movie. But that's also when they
do things like pull death or the Tower or the Devil.
It's like, this is what it means in that universe
If I pull that later sometimes it just means go
do the dishes.
Speaker 2 (31:31):
Yeah, the perspective one who always reminds me of the
hanged demand, Like people always think the hanged man is
one of like kind of equivalent to death, and I'm like, no,
do you see like he's kind of happy, just like
upside down in his own little world like hanging out.
Speaker 1 (31:50):
Most of the illustrations for that have always looked a
little bit lemony snaket ish to me. Yeah, some weird
uncle that you have or like an member of the
Adams family. That's just I need to go think.
Speaker 2 (32:04):
Yes exactly. Is there anything you specifically want to talk
about that I haven't touched on, like about your art
or your business.
Speaker 1 (32:11):
It's something that occasionally I have difficulty like quantifying, but
it's always something that I'm interested and very willing to
talk about. Is I think I mentioned something earlier about like, yes,
I did in a sense pick this drama, but the
(32:33):
for reasons that my service dog exists. It kind of
ties into the I used to work retail and I've
done some office jobs and things, but I a lot
of the time when I talk about how I have
to do this because of my health, I know sometimes
people are kind of wary of conversation not getting like
(32:56):
super deep into that area. But whenever people hear me
thank them for coming by to visit, I try to
impress upon them that I really, I really do mean
that because it's all of the creativity and all the
things that I am able to do with scheduling and
what resources I do have. It's under a certain kind
(33:20):
of pressure of Sometimes people talk about the feast and
famine cycles and everything. I don't really have fallbacks for
when it is like the famine cycles and things. And
I've been doing this for a few years and learning
a lot of things, but it's still in terms of numbers,
(33:42):
very very not supporting. Yeah, so when people are able
to come by. I try to give people really good experience,
the really cool vibes where it's more than just visiting
a shop. I kind of joke on half joke on
social media. It's a little bit of a pocket dimension
that I try to share with people because it's part
(34:05):
of the comfortable space in my brain that I would
really love to share. And that's also a big reason
that I have been very proactive in support in promoting
the kickstarter, because once that goes through in one way
or another, that is a whole lot of work that
I don't need to do again. But also it's a
(34:30):
huge step towards sharing the particularly like comfy weird vibes
that I've been trying to share all along. So it's
the weird limbo between. It would really really help me
out in various reasons that I picked this, Yes, but
I was also kind of shoved into it. But also
(34:51):
give people a return on their investment, I think is
the best way to put that where I've always wanted
to be working for the support that I get. Yeah,
but the kickstarter is the biggest way to finally pull
the trigger of having the funding to scan everything and
all of my time to format and X y Z
(35:12):
and finally have something really big to put out.
Speaker 2 (35:15):
We were just talking about the movie Shelby Oaks that
started as a kickstarter, So like.
Speaker 1 (35:19):
Okay, I am suddenly way more interested in that movie.
Speaker 2 (35:22):
I know. That's why I'm like telling everyone about it.
And I went to see it in the movie theater
because well, if I'm gonna pay twenty dollars to go
to the movie theater, like, I'm gonna give it to
someone who worked really hard and to get there and
had to ask for help and had people help them, And.
Speaker 1 (35:37):
Yeah, that's definitely going way higher on my list.
Speaker 2 (35:41):
So your tarot deck is the liminal deck? Is that
what you're calling it?
Speaker 1 (35:45):
Yes, it's the liminal deck.
Speaker 2 (35:47):
Okay, what does that mean? Because I kind of know
what it means, but other people might not.
Speaker 1 (35:52):
Liminal a lot of the times, especially in media lately,
tends to me like a like an unsettling empty space.
You might have heard the title the back Rooms.
Speaker 2 (36:03):
Oh that's exactly what I think of.
Speaker 1 (36:04):
I'm a big fan of the back Rooms because it's
a vibe. But liminal in a more specific sense is
an in between space or like an in between stage.
Of something where we live. There used to be a
gap in the fence that we could run over, and
it was a really quick way to get like over
(36:25):
to grocery stores and pharmacy and whatever. Before they filled
that in because some stuff happened. It's a good way
to get into where we live too, so they filled
it in. I used that a little bit in my
practice because it was a perfect little, tiny liminal space
that didn't jump out. It's like, oh, look at this
as creepy. That's so cool, instead of the sense of
(36:48):
like a very concerted effort at being creepy, like the
back rooms, it's something right in between, or kind of
the sense of having one foot on either side of
a line, or.
Speaker 2 (37:00):
One foot in the living world and one in the
in the dead world. What is it the other side?
Speaker 1 (37:06):
Oh exactly. That's what I was gonna say, is.
Speaker 2 (37:09):
Oh, you probably will say it better than me. Let
me shut up.
Speaker 1 (37:12):
There is a term in witchcraft called hedgewitch that sometimes
people misinterpret that as meaning like like, oh, a witch
of like plants and hedges, and but it's actually a
term meaning someone whose practices involve like the middle world.
(37:34):
And sometimes that's like the astral or sometimes it's a
little bit of a People don't really like the term
necromancy because that's also it's also a Hollywood thing, but
in a softer sense of like speaking with spirits and
having very purposeful dreams and some practices involving flying. That's
(37:59):
the hedge, which because in like northern Europe, I think
it's especially in England, England and Scotland, they would have big,
massive fields, but then instead of just fences, they would
have something called the hedge where it would be a
strip of trees where it was a lot more dense
than everything else. So liminal is also very much a
(38:26):
kind of like the hedge in traditional English countryside where
you walk into there and it's almost like a different world,
and then you walk out on the other side and
then it's just another field and you might be in
your neighbor's cowfield or something.
Speaker 2 (38:41):
Is that what like the the gift of Homer Simpson
going into the hedge, She's like going into the other side,
is that he's different.
Speaker 1 (38:52):
I can never see that the same. I mean it,
thank you for that, You're welcome.
Speaker 2 (38:56):
He's in a liminals. That's like, that's your new symbol
for eliminals.
Speaker 1 (39:00):
Yeah, it's very much like that. And I called the
deck the liminal deck because even if I say negative
things all about like oh, this is too traditional, people
get very bogged down and just all of the rules.
Tradition isn't bad by itself, it's when you kind of
fixate on that and you don't acknowledge how it affects
(39:22):
things now. So I like to take what still works
from tradition, but combine it with new ideas. So the
Liminal Deck is very much my design toward keeping things
familiar enough where people who like taro will still recognize
it as something that they've used before. But there's a
(39:45):
lot that's different in the deck where hopefully people who
are in a really like cozy, comfortable space in tarot
can still use it and think to themselves, well, what
if it also this, or have different ideas and kind
of at least peek over the fence of things other
things that are more possible.
Speaker 2 (40:05):
I also love that there are so many different decks
and different even if it's a traditional deck, it has
it could have, Like there's so many different artworks, so
many different styles. I love having multiple different decks because,
like I kind of intuitively choose one for how I'm
feeling or whatever story we're talking about, or I have.
(40:28):
If I'm reading for somebody else, they can choose the deck.
So it's kind of nice just to have ones that
you can choose that kind of fit what you're reading.
Speaker 1 (40:38):
In the way that you describe that just now. It
kind of reminds me of when people tell stories of
going over to their grandparents' house and their grandmother might
have a whole bunch of different teacups or something like
that in their cabinet, and then different different grandkids get
to pick different ones, and everybody's going to have their
(40:59):
own vibes, and they might change them up every now
and then. But I try not to be just straight
up derogatory about traditional decks and other traditional things. But
it's kind of like you said, most people that I
know who are into taro, it's kind of like tattoos,
(41:20):
like it's very hard to have just one right once
the kickstarter goes live. I do say it in some
of the video, which I worked very hard on, and
it has some vibes that I also like to share,
but I try to make it clear that I don't
want to ever try and set myself up as an
(41:41):
authority on things. But I definitely want to contribute towards things.
I try to add something rather than just claw at
something else and take it away.
Speaker 2 (41:51):
It's always better to add to the world, right than
just like replace things. I enjoy other people's perspective too,
Like I like to see as many different perspectives as possible.
I think it's really important.
Speaker 1 (42:03):
I definitely agree with that. My brain is chaos, so
it doesn't always stick same. But yeah, it's if more
people entertained the different ideas or at least tried new things,
and I think we'd be a lot better off.
Speaker 2 (42:18):
Yeah. Do you have a Tarot deck right now? Would
you like to pull a card?
Speaker 1 (42:23):
I know exactly where the Nightvale deck that I referenced
actually is awesome and it's the kind of old where
the string broke and everything. But I still have the bag.
Speaker 2 (42:34):
Oh, I love that. Do you do taroll with other
people or for other people? Often?
Speaker 1 (42:40):
I do have a few listings, like on my coffee page.
I have small readings and then I do offer the
really large Celtic cross spread.
Speaker 2 (42:53):
Ooh.
Speaker 1 (42:54):
Most of the time it's for myself and I used
to do readings at my booth. But because of numbers
and other like logistics and my attention span, I don't
do that in person anymore unless there's a helper with me,
just in case that's yeah, something explodes, then we have
to chase paper and stuff like that.
Speaker 2 (43:16):
Yeah, I And we usually just either like pull a
card for whatever we were talking about or whatever somebody
needs to hear who's listening right now, Like you don't
specifically have to read for me, okay.
Speaker 1 (43:29):
I do like the idea of I sometimes I do
unconventional readings where either someone is holding a question in
their head or just a very general reading something that
when people are new to Taro, I try to let
them know that yes or no questions are not a
(43:51):
good idea because it's not supposed to be like a
magic able, I guess. But if the interpretation of a
card or a spread of cards makes them think of something,
and it's probably something that they need to think about.
Speaker 2 (44:06):
Mm hmm.
Speaker 1 (44:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (44:07):
That's kind of what I always tell people to, like,
we can pretty much relate any card to something that's
going on in your question. Just give me a little
time to think about it, Like I I could piece
something together for you.
Speaker 1 (44:19):
So I think what I'm going to do is do
a reading for anyone who's listening, and it might actually
be a case of it applies to a bunch of
different people. So that's why I kind of wanted to
describe it as if it makes you think of something,
then it's probably something that you need to think about.
Speaker 2 (44:43):
Okay, So let's all send our energy from the past
and the future and the present.
Speaker 1 (44:48):
And for you that can see just I don't know
if they make the stick anymore, because they did like
a different version, but that's the back of it right there.
Speaker 2 (44:59):
Oh oh, it's an eyeball.
Speaker 1 (45:03):
Let's go with one. And because we have also talked
a lot about booth work today, I'm gonna go with
the bottom card from a basic.
Speaker 2 (45:15):
Shuffle I just did, Okay, the kabooth.
Speaker 1 (45:20):
So I have two of Wands reversed.
Speaker 2 (45:24):
That's weird. We literally were talking about two of wands,
weren't we.
Speaker 1 (45:29):
Yes, that's in the liminal deck that we'll be running
on kickstarters starting on Wednesday. My version of the two
of Wands is the person that is very heavily masked up,
has a black hoodie and everything, but their eyes are
both glowing shiny glowy eye and upright, it's very much
(45:54):
having foresight, where it's the second step of some kind
of journey me something moral or philosophical, kind of a
take action, but you don't have to finish it right
now as long as you take the countep so reverse.
(46:16):
I would mostly interpret that as there's something that you
could be doing that you do have the values towards
doing it, but there's some kind of excuse that you
have that isn't necessarily malicious, but deeper down than however
you normally talk to yourself, you kind of know that
(46:37):
it's not a very good excuse or you could do
something to get past it eventually. So it's not necessarily
a hey, you're not doing this or you're a horrible person.
It's more of a take a minute. You probably know
that you probably know that this reason is not as
(46:58):
solid as you think, So there's there's some way that
you can take a next step in something that you
really value. You're just really hesitating right now.
Speaker 2 (47:10):
Can you describe it too? Because for people who can't see.
Speaker 1 (47:13):
It, the podcast that this illustration is from is set
in like southwest, United States, so it's kind of desert
Arizona Ish and there's a big giant crag in the ground,
a cravass like it probably big enough to be like
a tourist attraction, like you take a hike and everything,
(47:34):
but everything is glowing green. And in the context of
the story, it's called Raidon Canyon.
Speaker 2 (47:43):
Actually, oh okay, that makes sense, the green glowy.
Speaker 1 (47:47):
And it is built as a tourist attraction. So I
would kind of put that hand in hand with if
you're gonna go there, you had better keep going, like
it could be fine, but you gotta keep going. So
reversed intwo of ones, especially with the artwork that I
have in here, kind of paired with how I tend
(48:07):
to interpret that card is you know exactly what's going on.
You see the glow around you, You know that you
are in some place called raid On Canyon, So why
aren't you still moving? And you don't have to panic
and move, but you should probably go ahead and take
(48:27):
the next steps. And for everybody out there who also
has ADHD, I wish you the best of luck in
figuring out what it is you forgot, because I'm trying
to do that too.
Speaker 2 (48:41):
That's like kind of why I was laughing like, go ahead,
take the next step. It's not that hard. Because I
was listening to a podcast the other day and that
was talking about like, like just do the first step
of something like plan out like the entire steps, or
just think about what the very first step would be
and just do that, like just take the first that
(49:04):
And so I'm like, okay. Now you're saying like, okay,
just take the next step, and I'm like, away, I
just took the first one.
Speaker 1 (49:13):
I can't understand that. That's even people who approach tarot
as more of a psychological thing. I've had experiences with
people who we'd get on the same page, like, yes,
I'm pagan, you don't have to be. We can both
use tarot and talk about it. I've had some interesting
experiences with people where they would pull a card from
(49:35):
their own deck and it would be something like wheel
of Fortune, and then we talk about that, and then
I would shuffle and pull a card from my deck
and it would be wheel of Fortune.
Speaker 2 (49:47):
That's I love when that shit happens.
Speaker 1 (49:49):
Stuff happens, and we might both be partially incorrect. It
might be something that's not psychological, it might not be
something that's pagan, but in that moments something is happening.
Speaker 2 (50:03):
Yeah, we've I've had never had that happen specifically, But
it seems like whenever like I draw a card, or
my and my guest draws a card, or sometimes one
of them had drew like a ruin, it seems to
be like the interpretations kind of go together, or they're
like perfectly matched or paired, or like have the same
(50:23):
type of themes or like the same imagery even sometimes
and I'm like, dang, like how does that even work?
We're like over the computer and we're pulling like the
same kind of card with the same things.
Speaker 1 (50:36):
That's the and it touches a little bit more on
the the witchery side of things. But I am also
very much a proponent of the idea that not everything
is external magic, but sometimes it kind of pokes energy
that we already have inside us that kind of tunes
(51:01):
us toward each other, I guess would be the closest
way I could describe that. Yeah, if it was simply
external things, then there would be much less that, for example,
worked through the computer screen, but people can connect a
lot deeper than is often promoted, and when people are
(51:26):
very interested in the topic, it sparks more conversations of well,
what is energy? Like how do people connect? How do
I use the past to influence the future versus I
bought a rock and it's blue that means x y Z.
Speaker 2 (51:44):
Or you could buy a rock and someone can tell
you it's for that and then yeah, this rock is
telling me it's for this completely other thing, and that's
fine too.
Speaker 1 (51:53):
I could also talk at length of like lists of
things that people go by ten not to gravitate towards
like witchcraft groups and things, because I'm definitely the person
who sees a list and just goes.
Speaker 2 (52:10):
Why yeah, suspicious.
Speaker 1 (52:13):
But from my perspective approaching occult subjects, it's more of
a how does it interact with your own energy? Like
one one rock that you really hate might do wonderful
things for me. One tea that's great for you might
be really disgusting and put me in a bad mood.
(52:34):
So everybody has to, for an example, find the tarot
deck that resonates with them. Don't just pop over to
the nearest store that carries them and get the best seller, like.
Speaker 2 (52:46):
Order the generic on Amazon. Oh yeah, I've never done
that before ever, Like, don't look at me, what do
you mean.
Speaker 1 (52:55):
It's that's a choice. If it's accessible, that's it is.
Speaker 2 (53:00):
The first deck I ever bought myself, I think was
from Amazon. But you guys can't judge me because I
just didn't know yet. I wasn't fully immersed in this world,
and you know, yeah.
Speaker 1 (53:11):
It's I obviously I am an independent seller, an artisan
and everything like that. I was still poke around in
spirit of Halloween. But it's still if I see something,
I try to consciously think, Okay, is this the choice
that I'm really going to make?
Speaker 2 (53:30):
Yes, exactly, And then also can I make another choice
and support maybe someone smaller as well. Also, this did
remind me of like one of the rules that I
hate that everyone always says about taro is that you
have to be gifted your tarot deck and you can't
buy your own.
Speaker 1 (53:48):
I can understand some of the historical context of that.
I don't know how true it is, but it's plausible.
At least there was a time, and I'm sure there's
still some places that you go out and just buy
your own tarot deck that could put you in a
lot of danger. But if you are gifted a Tarot deck,
that means you are pretty much in a mostly safe space,
(54:13):
or you at least know someone safe enough that you
can mention you would like to have a Tarot deck,
and then they can go out and pick one.
Speaker 2 (54:21):
Up for you. I don't think it's necessary though at all.
Speaker 1 (54:24):
I don't think it's totally necessary. It's if that directly
applies to someone, I can understand it, But as a
blanket rule, I don't think that's really relevant anymore.
Speaker 2 (54:35):
I feel like it kind of sort of probably came
from maybe when they weren't as popular in the stores
and you couldn't just go out and buy one, like
maybe you had a family deck that was like passed
down or whatever. But I don't think it was say
that too. I don't think it should ever be a
rule rule. So definitely, like if you're interested in this
liminal deck, go on the kickstarter and donate to it
(54:55):
so you can buy it. That would help for yourself.
Speaker 1 (54:58):
A lot of things, so much. Of course, I can
talk also for a really long time about how it
would add great things to the shop and things that
I don't have to draw again. I could keep getting
prints and make them accessible to people. But it's also
instead of kind of just fitting and dwelling on things
(55:19):
that I don't like in tarot subjects and spheres of things.
I have decided to go through a lot of time
and effort to add something, to add another alternative that
traditional can be fine, but I always want to encourage
people to try something new and something that doesn't hold
(55:45):
your hand, something that doesn't really spoon feed you. Yeah,
and the structure is the same, but there are enough
changes where hopefully it helps people think a little bit
more of their specific situation.
Speaker 2 (56:04):
Yeah, give them a little different perspective. Maybe exactly? Is
that like the biggest place people can find you as Instagram?
Speaker 1 (56:12):
The biggest places are Instagram. I try to stay where
aware of not everybody uses that all the time. So
the main areas are Instagram, the main website, Blackbird Parlor.
I also have a YouTube channel that I had a
lot of technical difficulties earlier, but once those are ironed
out and I can spend more time on it, that
(56:34):
will be more active.
Speaker 2 (56:35):
They're used to technical difficulties around here, so if they're
one of our listeners, they'll be fine.
Speaker 1 (56:39):
It makes me feel better mainly Instagram, but if I
have a comment or some kind of feedback on pretty
much anywhere else you can find me. Things are just
small enough. I think where I really love to be
able to take the time to actually respond to that
is I don't think I will wake up anytime soon,
(57:01):
and there's like ten thousands of commons and things like that.
Hopefully at that point you never know, hire an intern.
I don't know. But I really like to have feedback
and have a back and forth pretty much anywhere, but
Instagram is the easiest.
Speaker 2 (57:16):
Place to do that.
Speaker 1 (57:17):
And you are at that is at whiskey w h
I s k E y whiskey Tara t e r
R A fox trot.
Speaker 2 (57:28):
I was trying to say where wolves I'm just renaming you.
Speaker 1 (57:33):
Think of like the pointy orange where fox somewhere. But
that's yes, speaking of ADHD.
Speaker 2 (57:40):
But you're gonna have to add a were wolf t
your dec.
Speaker 1 (57:45):
I think there's you're reminding me of things in my
college sketchbooks. Oh I need to make notes on later.
Speaker 2 (57:52):
But maybe I'm just reading your mind.
Speaker 1 (57:55):
Maybe reading my sketch books a terrifying place to be
one day, if the stars aligned for it, I would
love to put out a very small line of whiskey
because I don't drink a lot, but I know it.
What is my favorites?
Speaker 2 (58:14):
But liminal whiskey.
Speaker 1 (58:16):
Oh yeah, that's that sounds like a potion that would
do interesting things.
Speaker 2 (58:22):
It does. Whiskey is kind of liminal if you think
about it, because it just sits in a.
Speaker 1 (58:27):
Barrel's Irish whiskey. At least it uses pete from the bogs.
Speaker 2 (58:32):
So if that's very liminal.
Speaker 1 (58:34):
If someone says like, oh, whiskey takes tastes like dirt,
you should ask them if they're actually a fan of whiskey,
because if someone likes it, they might say it tastes
like dirt and it's fine, and if they don't, they
just like, okay, that is very liminal. It could go
either way.
Speaker 2 (58:51):
Have a creepy day. Thank you so much. That was
so much fun.
Speaker 1 (58:55):
It was great.
Speaker 2 (58:58):
So when we I messaged you, I think after or
you messaged me. I can't remember who messaged you after
we met, because I like asked you if you wanted
to be interviewed on the podcast and whatever, so I
was like reaching out to you, I think. But we
were chatting a little bit and you were saying something
about your tent collapsed and everything was chaos and I
(59:21):
like fully knew who I was talking to, Like I
knew you were the person who was creating the tarot deck,
like fully knew who you were. But then I like
responded and I was like, oh my god, do you
fuck with Tarrell? Like this seems like a tower card situation.
And then I was so embarrassed.
Speaker 1 (59:37):
After that is perfectly fine. I think I said something
to that effect. It's I try not to just frame
everything in terms of ADHD, but it's I was a
very late diagnosis in life, so sometimes when things like
that happen with other people, I tried to be very
(59:58):
vocally understanding m
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