November 20, 2025 • 54 mins
Two years after Susan Cox Powell vanished, tragedy struck again. During a court-ordered supervised visit in Graham, Washington, her husband Josh Powell locked a social worker out, attacked his sons Charlie and Braden, and ignited the house in a fire that shocked the nation. In Part 2 we piece together the aftermath—the frantic 911 call, the investigation that followed, and the systemic failures that allowed a person of interest in Susan’s disappearance to retain access to his children. We examine how grief turned into activism through the Cox family’s foundation, and how the family’s tragic loss reshaped supervised-visitation policy, and why Susan’s warnings remain a rallying cry for domestic-violence awareness. From Utah’s deserts to Washington’s forests, this story closes in flames—but its legacy continues to demand accountability and change.
If you or someone you know feels unsafe in a relationship, reach out to the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1-800-799-SAFE (7233) or visit thehotline.org. Support is available 24/7 via phone, chat, or by texting START to 88788. For listeners in the Pacific Northwest, local help is also available through the Washington State Domestic Violence Hotline at 1-800-562-6025 or Oregon’s SafeLine at 1-888-235-5333.
Visit our website! Find us on Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, Patreon, & more! If you have any true crime, paranormal, or witchy stories you'd like to share with us & possibly have them read (out loud) on an episode, email us atpnwhauntsandhomicides@gmail.com or use this link. There are so many ways that you can support the show: BuyMeACoffee, Spreaker, or by leaving a rating & review on Apple Podcasts.
If you or someone you know feels unsafe in a relationship, reach out to the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1-800-799-SAFE (7233) or visit thehotline.org. Support is available 24/7 via phone, chat, or by texting START to 88788. For listeners in the Pacific Northwest, local help is also available through the Washington State Domestic Violence Hotline at 1-800-562-6025 or Oregon’s SafeLine at 1-888-235-5333.
Visit our website! Find us on Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, Patreon, & more! If you have any true crime, paranormal, or witchy stories you'd like to share with us & possibly have them read (out loud) on an episode, email us atpnwhauntsandhomicides@gmail.com or use this link. There are so many ways that you can support the show: BuyMeACoffee, Spreaker, or by leaving a rating & review on Apple Podcasts.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Psychologists later cited the Powell case as a textbook example
of coercive control, the slow corrosion of autonomy that too
often ends in lethal violence. Chuck and Judy Cox transformed
their grief into advocacy through the Susan Cox Powell Foundation.
They fund programs addressing intimate partner homicide risk and missing
(00:25):
persons awareness. They speak often about early intervention, warning signs, isolation,
financial control, threats, mascles, jokes, Hi, Cassie, Hi, Caitlin, Hi,
creepy people.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Oh Hello, this.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
Is PNW, Haunts and homicides where we chat about true crime,
the paranormal, whatever strikes our fancy.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
In the Pacific Northwest, oh, the p.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
And w if Yes. We also do a Tarot reading
at the end of every episode for a little bit
of deeper insight into our topic. Anything else I was
gonna say, And our topic today is extended from last week.
Ah yeah, part adieu and with that, without further adull,
(01:21):
it's duh. In the weeks after Susan Powell vanished on
December sixth, two thousand and nine, from her Utah home,
investigators followed every possible lead. Searchers scowled, scowled. They scowled.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
You know, I'm sure they scowled real hard at Joshua.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
I mean they honestly did. But also searchers scoured hundreds
of miles of Utah desert mine shafts, remote campgrounds, storage
units rented under variations of Josh's name.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
Oh, he had like a bunch of different storage units.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
You know, I didn't really tug at this thread, but
I think that they were just looking for like a
situation where he might be using an alias or you
know what I'm saying.
Speaker 2 (02:11):
Is that legal? They just search a bunch of random
people's storage units.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
I mean, if they've got probable cause they have warrants.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
That just seems like how would they get a warrant
for that? Most they could prove it was his storage unit?
And that's that's really interesting though. Yeah, I can see
why that's like kind of a big thread to go
down or a big hole to go down, but.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
Exactly, and it's like, you know, that's probably not going
to yield all that much.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
But you know, we're interested in that. All it is.
I know you mentioned something and I'm like, wait, I
want to know about.
Speaker 1 (02:50):
And I'm like, but wait, there's not more.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
And there this is such a small piece of the
story that it does not matter.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
But yeah, I'm like, not even at the end of
the first paragraph, and you're like, but I have questions.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
This is where we need like an accompanied what's that called,
like accompanying podcast?
Speaker 1 (03:09):
Oh, like a companion podcast.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
Like a companion podcast where we have like a lawyer,
like a cop or someone come on and explain how
this would happen. Yeah, any cops are lawyers interested in
wanting to be our companion. You will get no money.
It just seems like, oh my god, if if another
CASAD committed a crime and they came and searched my
(03:32):
storage unit, yeah, I would feel extremely violated.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
Yeah, I mean, and and you wouldn't necessarily be entirely wrong,
but you know, they're gonna do what they gotta do.
They dug and sifted through snow and held vigils that
blurred one winter into the next. Cadaver dogs alerted twice
in the Simpson Springs area, but snow and wind wiped
(03:58):
away what little scent existed. But for all the movement,
no one could shake the feeling that the case had
frozen in place, stuck between what investigators suspected and what
they could prove. Detectives later said they believed Susan's body
had been moved multiple times. Oh yeah, oh god, speaking
(04:23):
of chills, Like just.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
To bury someone anyway that you've murdered, it's just like
so well gross.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
But even saying buried, that's a presumption.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
You don't know. I guess I'm saying, like doing whatever
they're doing, disposing of the body or wherever they're prying.
It is so gross anyway that.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
Moving it all.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
Times is such yeah, desecration, like disrespect. It is. Ye,
no rest like she's already gone, let her have some peace. Wow.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
Detectives kept surveillance on Josh's house for weeks. They collected trash,
watched his comings and goings, and noted how he start
his car, sit for long stretches, then drive aimlessly.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
Hm. That's I don't know, that's weird.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
I mean, it's odd, but nothing necessarily criminal about.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
It, right? Is that what he was like used to
doing when he would like pretend to go to work
or something like, you.
Speaker 1 (05:25):
Know what, Honestly, it's a fair point.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
It's just his routine. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
On more than one occasion, he circled the Great Salt
Lake's western rim miles of open desert that could hide
almost anything. Through it all, Josh maintained a routine that
unnerved even his friends, as did his referring to Susan
in the past tense so shortly after her disappearance. God,
(05:52):
come on, you're not even a good liar, not even close.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
I mean we've kind of established that in part one. Well, yeah,
I can't even pretend a little bit here.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
Come on, Yeah, Like I can't even give you an.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
A for effort for like what a day. He kind
of pretended to be maybe a little concerned.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
Honestly, it doesn't sound like he was very convincing to
hardly anyone. Yeah, like pretty much from the start, like
anybody that actually got a glimpse, they really just didn't
believe him. Like his story was unbelievable, His demeanor was suspicious.
Everything about this just reeked of.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
Like what the fuck. I wonder if like he felt
like he was gonna get caught, or if he was
just walking around like thinking he was gonna get away
with it or whatever. I mean, I still don't know
either way, But I'm just like I'm wondering where his head. Yeah,
I want to know where his head. But that, as
gross as that sounds, I'm just curious.
Speaker 1 (06:49):
I'm not sure that we're really gonna get a solid
answer on that, but I'm gonna give you, like, there
are some things that we know and that are documented
that maybe makes you feel like you get a little
bit of a glimpse for better or for worse.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
Uh, this is why I wanted, like, I'm going to
be a criminal investigator, because I'm like, I want to
know what the murderer is thinking. You say that, but
obviously I didn't do it.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
No, I mean, it's like the curiosity gets the better review,
for sure. As the weeks bled into months, frustration hardened
into anger. Online forums accused police of moving too slowly.
Others dissected every nine to one one call an interview
transcript as if the truth might appear by sheer force
(07:37):
of attention. Church members brought meals to Josh for a while,
until his demeanor drove them away. One neighbor recalled he'd
talk about camping again, like that wasn't the weirdest thing
in the world. It was like he thought, if he
said it enough, we'd all start believing him.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
Like, is he talking about that same camping trip or
like future camping trips, or he's just like always talking
about camping.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
Yeah, I mean, my understanding is that he was referencing
the infamous camping and they were just like, dude, why
are you like harping on this? And it just made
them so uncomfortable that they stopped doing the nice, you know,
church person thing of like bringing him in his fund's meals.
Speaker 2 (08:26):
Damn. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
But my understanding is that it was like he was
trying to like re cement with everybody that he was
speaking with, like this is like kind of the series
of events and trying to kind of cement his alibi,
so to speak.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
Yesh, how awkward, God, how awkward to be the people
that he was talking to about that lately, Like, dude,
just fuck off.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
Chilling recollections of previous conversations, made more disturbing by his
wife's disappearance, were shared with Investigators said Josh had made
comments about how to kill someone, dispose of the body,
and not get caught. At the time, he'd said he
would hide a body in a mine shaft in the
west desert of Utah, believing law enforcement was extremely unlikely
(09:16):
to search an unstable mind who was he saying this
to He's talking to just people about it, his coworkers.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
What the fuck?
Speaker 1 (09:25):
Not super safe for work? I gotta say, I thought
it was awkward before. Is that was this before?
Speaker 2 (09:32):
Or after? This was before?
Speaker 1 (09:34):
This predates Susan's disappearance. He is at least smart enough
to not talk about it after, but I mean just barely.
By summer twenty ten, the searches had slowed, though not
the obsession. Detectives combed mind shafts near Eli, Nevada. Volunteers
organized fundraisers each time Bone surfaced in the desert Hope
(09:59):
Flaire and died again.
Speaker 2 (10:02):
Shit, did they find other people? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (10:04):
They definitely found other bodies.
Speaker 2 (10:07):
Oh my god. Yeah. It's hard to know how to
feel or what to say about that, because it's like,
if she hadn't died, they wouldn't have found those other people.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
Maybe, but Jesus, yeah, I mean it's great that they
were able to find something that maybe they didn't even
know they should be looking for. Yeah, so it's like
maybe that's in a way sort of a silver lining.
But how disappointing to be going out and looking for
this woman and finding literally everything but her.
Speaker 2 (10:36):
I guess She answered my question too. If they searched Nevada,
they did. They did.
Speaker 1 (10:41):
In March twenty ten, Josh packed up what was left
of his Utah life and drove north to Washington with
Charlie and Braden to settle back into his hometown of
pu Yallop.
Speaker 2 (10:53):
No get tired. Yeah you stink? Yeah, not the kids,
Not the kids.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
The move felt like retreat, but he claimed he needed
family support. He moved in with his father, Steve Powell,
the same man who'd once written love songs to Susan.
The children had told their maternal grandparents all about Grandpa's
weird songs about Mommy.
Speaker 2 (11:19):
I forgot about him. M ew so this was his dad? Yep,
but did that? Yeah? Okay, yeah that is just like God,
what is their obsession with this one woman?
Speaker 1 (11:34):
Yeah. Back in Puollup, Josh reinvented himself as a single father.
He blogged about parenting and posted photos of the boys
at playgrounds. Every image looked staged, two small boys smiling
because someone told them to. By late twenty eleven, Josh's
veneer of cooperation was cracking. His sister Jennifer warned authorities,
(12:00):
believing he was on a slow March towards something terrible.
That's when she agreed to wear a wire. So technically
before twenty eleven, because January twenty second, twenty ten, Jennifer
and her husband visited her father's house, So twenty ten
she wears the wire. Twenty eleven is really when like
(12:24):
the custody things starts to heat up. It's like this
kind of period of time where things are just it's
so hard to map it on a timeline because when
you say, like his veneer was cracking, it's like what veneer?
Speaker 2 (12:41):
And uh huh.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
Also, it's literally like the cracks were in the surface
from the start, It's right, yeah, anyway, if they were.
January twenty second, twenty ten, Jennifer and her husband visited
her father's house. There she attempted to confront her brother
and ask some burning questions. So you remember how there
were over forty documented inconsistencies and his story within like
(13:08):
the first week of Susan's disappearance. Yeah, that explains this
next part because Josh told her there's a recording of
him saying this. Josh said his attorney had advised that
he not talk about specifics because he can't keep the
details straight, right, Okay, And also it like in general,
(13:33):
even if you are, you know, actually someone that the
public presumes is potentially innocent, like you just shouldn't be
talking about the details of the case with people that
you like, don't trust, or more importantly, probably anyone outside
your legal team realistically, right.
Speaker 2 (13:52):
Yeah, because anything can be taken like out of context.
Speaker 1 (13:55):
Yep, yeah, you're feeding the prosecution essentially.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
He has a lot of very specific things even taken
out of context or in context, looks suspicious.
Speaker 1 (14:06):
But yeah, Steve interrupted their conversation and turned on Jennifer.
It got ugly, with her father levying threats against her
and the couple left. He was literally like swearing at her,
screaming at her. He threatened her life. Once safely back
in her car, Jennifer may have been slightly shaken emotionally
(14:27):
from the conflict, but her conviction was firm as ever
that Josh had something to do with Susan's disappearance.
Speaker 2 (14:34):
So they have it on recording that he was like
yelling at her and stuff. Geez. That's like the thing
that makes me really nervous too, is even if they're
listening to you wearing a wire, like they could come
in and theoretically save you if that person, you know,
doesn't kill you or hurt you, you know, before they
get there.
Speaker 1 (14:53):
Yeah, I don't know that this was a situation where
law enforcement was like on standby. Yeah, they were just recording, right, Yeah,
so her safety.
Speaker 2 (15:03):
It's even more dangerous. Yep. Holy shit.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
The recording didn't yield a confession, but it gave investigators
another glimpse into the family's twisted orbit and confirmed that
fear now guided every conversation. If the recording was any indication,
it wouldn't be long before the search for Susan was
competing with something darker, the unraveling of the Powell family itself.
(15:31):
A father in law obsessed, a husband growing stranger by
the day, and two little boys caught in the poll
of a story that should have ended differently. The following year,
twenty eleven, brought Steve Powell's arrest for voyeurism and possession
of child pornography charges.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
No, that's it.
Speaker 1 (15:54):
The search of Steve Powell's home uncovered thousands of photos
and journals fixated on Susan. Some were taken through windows,
others were close ups clearly snapped without her knowledge or consent.
Speaker 3 (16:06):
Were there like sleeping pictures of her, No, they were
primarily photos that appear to have been captured, like when
she was like out in public places, Like I think
some of them were probably taken in like the parking
lot of her workplace, things like that.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
Oh, that's right, you did kind of say that, yeah,
which I don't know. They're both creepy, like if he
was like sneaking picks at home, but for some reason,
I was thinking it was like a home thing. But
like he was following her around in her life too,
And huh did they live with him?
Speaker 1 (16:38):
They did at one point, yeah, before they moved to Utah.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
Yeah. Oh.
Speaker 1 (16:43):
The discovery confirmed what Susan had confided years earlier that
she'd felt watched, even from miles away. When news broke
that he had hundreds of images of Susan, the public
outrage reignited the case. The discovery function like a mirror
every suspicion about Josh reflected through his father's obsessions, exposing
(17:07):
the family's toxic center manipulation masquerading as devotion. The revelations
also deepened the psychological portrait of Josh's upbringing, one shaped
by dysfunction, surveillance and sexual boundary violations. Investigators began to
reframe Josh not merely as a suspect, but as a
(17:29):
product of his father's warped moral universe. Washington child welfare
officials removed the boys from Josh's custody following Steve's arrest,
citing the home's sexualized environment and Josh's unresolved status as
a person of interest, granting temporary custody to Susan's parents.
(17:49):
Steve had also been a person of interest in Susan's case.
Josh's psychological evaluations described him as narcissistic, emotionally immature, and
potentially violent if cornered. He attended mandated parenting classes and
began building a paper trail of compliance.
Speaker 2 (18:11):
So he's been a good little boy.
Speaker 1 (18:14):
Well, he's doing his version of that. His sister, Jennifer Graves,
would prove an invaluable witness in the case against her father.
She testified that her father used to capture photographs of
two young girls in the neighborhood outside of the courtroom.
She spoke to reporters stating, more than ever, I'm convinced
(18:36):
that the boys shouldn't be with Josh, and they certainly
never should have been with my dad. She was glad
that her family had cut ties with her father long
ago for the sake of their own children, and that
now Susan and Josh's would be removed.
Speaker 2 (18:52):
Oh my gosh, so like even his kids like knew
what was going on. Well, it's funny you should say that.
She has also voiced suspicions about what Josh might have
known about, you know, the child pornography.
Speaker 1 (19:10):
And I mean, she really didn't believe in giving either
of these men the benefit of the doubt, and why
should she. It was around this time that child welfare
agents started documenting Josh's volatility in court records. He interrupted
supervised visits to Bert's staff, insisted the children were brainwashed,
(19:34):
and refused to answer direct questions about Susan. The Coxes
meanwhile moved to permanently terminate his parental rights, believing it
was safest for Charlie and Braden to remain in their care.
For a moment, it seemed the system might protect them
until February fifth, twenty twelve, when it didn't. Sunday, February fifth,
(20:00):
twenty twelve was a gray day in Graham, Washington. The
boys were playing happily as the time of their supervised
visit with their father approached, and they honestly didn't really
want to go.
Speaker 2 (20:12):
I can't blame them.
Speaker 1 (20:14):
Judy Cox, Susan's mother coaxed them to proceed with their
visit as planned. Case worker Elizabeth, who was supervising the
boy's visit, pulled into Josh Powell's driveway at eighty one
nineteen one hundred and eighty ninth Street Court East just
before noon. Which street Court? What are we doing here? People?
Speaker 2 (20:36):
I got? I was like, huh, couldn't decide?
Speaker 1 (20:39):
We did bo Street Court East, for fock's sake. It's
hardly the most upsetting part of this, but one hour,
two boys and a father under scrutiny. When she stepped
from her car, Charlie and Braden sprinted ahead, excited to
see their dad. Because of course, by the time they
get there and they actually see their dad, I'm sure
(21:01):
they are excited to see him.
Speaker 2 (21:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:03):
Josh smiled, ushered them inside, and then slammed.
Speaker 2 (21:07):
The door with all the supervisor.
Speaker 1 (21:09):
In Elizabeth's face. Oh shit, Elizabeth's knock met silence. Elizabeth
frantically dialed nine one one, the call coming in at
two o eight pm. According to the call logs, she
desperately tried to explain the details and the severity of
the circumstances to the dispatcher in one of the most
frustrating nine one one calls I've ever listened to. The
(21:33):
dispatcher's voice stayed maddeningly calm, clearly not grasping the seriousness
of the situation. Here's an excerpt from the tail end
of the call. Elizabeth, Okay, how long will it be?
She's asking how long before officers will be there? Nine
one one operator. I don't know, ma'am. They have to
(21:53):
respond to emergency, life threatening situations first. The first available
deputy will respect Elizabeth said, this could be life threatening.
He went to court on Wednesday and he didn't bring
his kids back, and this is really I'm afraid for
their lives. Nine one one operator, Okay, has he threatened
(22:16):
the lives of the children previously?
Speaker 2 (22:18):
Elizabeth?
Speaker 1 (22:19):
I have no idea nine one one operator, all right, Well,
we'll have the first available deputy contact you. Elizabeth, Thank you,
nine one one operator. Bye. There are a handful of
minutes back and forth. She's trying to explain who she is,
why she is, where she is, who she is interacting with,
(22:46):
and in relation to what the situation is. And this
dispatcher just for the life of her could not understand
what was going on. Apparently it kind of fell like
watching clips of Clinton saying it depends on what you
think is.
Speaker 2 (23:05):
Is wow, I just like, I guess I assumed that
if someone is supervising a visit from a parent who
is like that, where they've kind of established like he
might be violent, didn't they.
Speaker 1 (23:22):
I mean, yeah, it's well established. I don't you can't
have your kids, So Dave Thatcher doesn't necessarily have that context, right.
I was tempted to read the entirety of the transcript
because it is literally like it will just make you
want to bang your head against the wall until it bleeds.
Speaker 2 (23:42):
Well, right, that's kind of what I'm getting at, is
like I assumed that there was some sort of direct
line I guess to like the police, you know, where
there's not that explaining the situation because the situation kind
of our I.
Speaker 1 (23:56):
Think the situation actually isn't that complicated. I think this
is a real failure.
Speaker 2 (24:02):
It's just crazy because like they're supervised for a reason,
then they can't even get help. Like, that's nuts to me. Yeah,
that does not make me feel safe. Yeah, and not
that I need to feel safe, but that doesn't make
me feel like any kid is safe anywhere, even from
a supervise, does it. That's insane?
Speaker 1 (24:19):
Yeah, I would argue, Yeah, that's a little insane.
Speaker 2 (24:23):
What is the point?
Speaker 1 (24:24):
Here's the thing. Elizabeth the caseworker, her full legal name,
is out there in association with this case. And I
think you'll see later there are a lot of people
that are gonna have a lot of strong feelings about
how all of this shit went down. And I'll be
(24:45):
honest with you, I'm not super familiar with what all
of the protocols would be for somebody in her position,
But what the fuck was she supposed to do? I
don't think she did anything wrong. She's children to this
supervised visit, and you know, they're excited now they see
their dad in front of them and they go running
(25:07):
in the door. And she did the right thing. She
immediately like called nine one one when she's like I've
been knocking, I'm not hearing him, like coming back to
the door, like what is happening? Yeah, that is not
the person that I feel like and I don't, you know,
it's not like I want to lay the blame at
any one person's feet if you had to decide person that, like,
(25:31):
this wasn't their best day, this wasn't their best moment,
was the dispatcher, And truth be told, I'm not sure
that anything that that person did made that big of
a difference. But it's a frustrating layer of just what
the fuck?
Speaker 2 (25:49):
I guess it's like it's hard to even know what
to do because like, not not all parents that need
supervised visits or you're like criminals with murder investigations going on,
but yeah, they need just like a life alert button,
you know, like some sunder.
Speaker 1 (26:04):
Button, like hey, yeah, yeah, even that I don't think
would have made a difference. Unfortunately, Elizabeth's concern for the
boys was well founded. She'd begun to smell gasoline emanating
from the house while on the call with the dispatcher.
By twelve sixteen, the dispatcher was notified that two units
(26:27):
from the Sheriff's office were being sent to respond to
the call. By then, it was already too late. Just
a moment prior, at twelve fifteen pm, the home had
erupted the explosion, flattening the structure and setting neighboring pines alight.
By twelve twenty nine pm, the first unit had arrived
at the scene, though by then the home was already
(26:49):
completely engulfed in flames.
Speaker 2 (26:51):
Holy shit, he blew up his fucking house.
Speaker 1 (26:54):
Yeah, the massive explosion of the home had blown the
roof clean off, sending debris flying. The inferno burned hot
enough to melt siding and send plumes of black smoke
curling over the quiet cul de sac in Graham, Washington,
a community just a few miles from where Josh grew up.
And this is important because with an explosion, obviously there's
(27:16):
a lot of sound, there's a lot of debris, a
lot of confusion, But Pierce County investigators ruled out any gunfire.
Investigators would later find a five gallon gas can in
the center of the home, where the bodies were also discovered.
They also recovered a hatchet near the entryway that had
(27:38):
apparently been used to attack the boys before Josh ignited
the fuel. Both Charlie and Braden had suffered what were
described as chop injuries. For all three, their official cause
of death was carbon monoxide poisoning, though Josh's death was
classified as a suicide, so.
Speaker 2 (27:59):
They weren't even passed away when he let them on fire. Nope.
Speaker 1 (28:02):
Oh my god, he took an axe to the head
and neck of his boys.
Speaker 2 (28:11):
How could you do that? Oh my god? It was
obviously like planned if he had a bunch of gasoline
in the house and you're not just walking with the hatchet.
Speaker 1 (28:21):
And we have a lot of information about things that happened,
things that came to light that show this was truly premeditated, right.
Speaker 2 (28:33):
And he knew he had to get them in there
quick and like shut the door and do it quick
before yep.
Speaker 1 (28:38):
I mean, she's probably lucky that he didn't let her in.
Speaker 2 (28:41):
I know I was thinking that too.
Speaker 1 (28:44):
Because I'm sure he would have honestly killed all four
of them. Public fury erupted. Commentators dissected the failures of
communication between Utah investigators, Washington Child Services staff, and the courts.
Chuck Cox, that's Susan's father, later said the system quote
(29:07):
gave Josh Powell every benefit of the doubt until there
was nothing left to doubt. Literally, the fire that tore
through Josh Powell's rental home just south of his hometown
wasn't just a tragedy. It was a final act of violence.
But the story didn't end there. In the aftermath, chilling
(29:27):
digital breadcrumbs began to surface. Powell had sent emails in
the minutes before the explosion, instructions about his utilities, his
bank accounts, and the remnants of his life. Moments before
the flames, his attorney received a final message, I'm sorry, goodbye.
He'd even donated some of the boys toys and games
(29:49):
to Goodwill days earlier.
Speaker 2 (29:51):
That seems weird to me.
Speaker 1 (29:54):
It's very weird, but it's all very clear that it's
part of it, Like it's all part of a premeditated plan.
Speaker 2 (30:03):
Yeah, But like why would he even go through the
trouble of that, I don't know, Like he's going to
explode the house, Like why do you need to get
rid of things? Why do you care that much about
other kids having these toys? But you're going to kill
your children?
Speaker 1 (30:18):
Yeah, I would say that's probably it's one of several
Like it's it's one of many things that are just
it's so confusing. It's so confusing. How how how is
that important enough to take the time out of your
day to go and make this donation. But yeah, you
attack your own children with a hatchet and literally let
(30:42):
them die in a house fire caused by an explosion.
Speaker 2 (30:48):
That is so creepy to me for some reason.
Speaker 1 (30:51):
Yeah, detective said. One voicemail obtained by family and ABC
News captured his parting words, I'm sorry to everyone I've
heard goodbye. There was no mention of susan, not one
word wow. Within weeks, Washington's Department of Social and Health
(31:15):
Services launched an internal review. The findings were blunt risk
assessment guidelines hadn't accounted for domestic violence related homicide indicators,
control isolation, obsession. Lawmakers responded quickly the aftermath tightened visitation protocols,
requiring thorough danger assessments and safe facility visits when a
(31:39):
parent is under active investigation for violent crime. There's no
official Charlie and Braden act like we see a lot
of times in kind of the response and the aftermath
of these cases. But this case is what spurred a
lot of these changes. It's frustrating in a way, though,
because it feels like there should be something that's like
(32:01):
in their name specifically, you know what I mean?
Speaker 2 (32:05):
Yeah, Because clearly I mean they died for it, you know. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:11):
In Utah, West Valley City police reclassified Susan's case from
missing person to probable homicide. They publicly acknowledged everyone already
knew she hadn't walked away. Just over a year after
Josh died by suicide after killing their sons, his brother,
Michael Powell, died by suicide when he jumped from a
(32:34):
multi story parking structure in Minnesota.
Speaker 2 (32:37):
Jesus themes in the fam.
Speaker 1 (32:40):
Law enforcement released a statement later in twenty thirteen related
to Susan's case, closure indicating that he had been heavily
investigated and they believed had intimate involvement. Many believe he
helped Josh, either when initially disposing of Susan's body or
when he moved it. At some point the brother did, yes,
(33:04):
that's what they believed. There's a lot of suspicion still
surrounding essentially all of the Powell men. People believe that
either his father and or his brother had involvement in
Susan's disappearance.
Speaker 2 (33:20):
What the fuck did this guy do to his kids?
Holy shit?
Speaker 1 (33:24):
While lawsuits unfolded, Stephen Powell was convicted in Pierce County
of voyeurism and later for possession of child pornography. They
actually tried to overturn his conviction and that was briefly successful,
and then it was reinstated.
Speaker 2 (33:41):
Thank gosh, Thank gosh, Josh, why would they do that
in the first place. That's upsetting.
Speaker 1 (33:50):
I didn't pull it that thread either, because there's still
so much more and I can't believe I'm saying that
at this point. He served multiple state prison terms and
was released in July twenty seventeen, And this is probably
the most compelling evidence that there might in fact be
(34:10):
a god. Less than a year later, in July twenty eighteen,
he died from a heart related illness.
Speaker 2 (34:17):
Oh, I was gonna say, so, like he fucking got out.
That's upsetting.
Speaker 1 (34:21):
It is upsetting a fuck, yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:25):
I mean it's just a little you know, little child
the porn and lights stalking, and it's fine. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (34:32):
Well, And I mean the thing that like I also
kind of struggled with in talking about like his case specifically,
is that like child pornography is also not really it
is in most states still the correct like legal nomenclature,
but this is child sex abuse material. It's not pornography
(34:58):
that is true. Yeah, So I hate saying that, but.
Speaker 2 (35:03):
I guess I just didn't really know another term for it.
So yeah, thank you for saying that, because I I guess, yeah,
I don't want pornography is not a bad word, right.
Speaker 1 (35:12):
Well, and like there is such a difference between like
consenting adults and what this is.
Speaker 2 (35:20):
You're blowing my mind, Caitlin, I love you.
Speaker 1 (35:24):
I kind of hate me a little bit today.
Speaker 2 (35:26):
Why why no? I love you?
Speaker 1 (35:29):
This is just really awful.
Speaker 2 (35:31):
It's awful, but and.
Speaker 1 (35:33):
One of you fuckers requested this.
Speaker 2 (35:36):
You creepy fucks. But we're learning, and.
Speaker 1 (35:40):
I feel like it's it's a really important story. Is
There a lot of patterns and themes that we've talked
about before, But the more that we talk about them,
the more that like we can try to help the
people that are potentially falling prey to them, and the
more that we can try to bring awareness and provide
(36:04):
resources to people so that things like this don't happen.
Jennifer Graves wrote a memoir A Light in Dark Places,
trying to salvage meaning from the wreckage of her family name.
She's literally lost her father and her two brothers and
(36:25):
her two.
Speaker 2 (36:25):
Nephews, like sister in law right two.
Speaker 1 (36:31):
Yeah, I'm just thinking about it like in terms of
like her direct like family line, but like to her,
like the loss of Susan was like really devastating too,
And I feel like it can't be overstated that, like
she wasn't one of those people that's like an apologist
for the bad behavior of her you know, male relatives,
(36:54):
and like that takes a lot, especially having grown up
in the type of environ that I'm imagining that her.
You know that the Powell children you know did.
Speaker 2 (37:07):
Yeah, and look how i mean, look how the other
two turned out. Like she could have easily turned out
a piece of shit too, but she didn't. Yeah, So
you don't have to turn out like that. You have
a choice. Maybe go to therapy that might help.
Speaker 1 (37:20):
Yeah, I mean, never hurts, except that one time. There
is that one case that was real bad.
Speaker 2 (37:28):
Oh Jesus, Yeah, that's scary too. God, thanks Caitlin.
Speaker 1 (37:33):
Her voice joins a growing chorus of survivors teaching how
control escalates to catastrophe. Psychologists later cited the Powell case
as a textbook example of coercive control the slow corrosion
of autonomy that two often ends in lethal violence. Chuck
(37:55):
and Judy Cox transformed their grief into advocacy through this
US and Cox Powell Foundation. They fund programs addressing intimate
partner homicide risk and missing person's awareness. They speak often
about early intervention, warning signs, isolation, financial control, threats, maskless jokes.
(38:18):
But if somebody is making jokes about hurting you, hurting
your family, your children, it's not a joke or even.
Speaker 2 (38:27):
Just like subtle jokes about like misogyny. Yeah, get in
the kitchen and make me a sandwich. Ha ha ha.
But like I sometimes I catch myself saying that, like,
but that's like actually not very funny, No, no, exactly,
and that could be like threatening in like such a
subtle way.
Speaker 1 (38:45):
Well, and I think that's something that we have to
really like be careful as women, Like even if we
think we're making a joke where we're like sort of
reclaiming this you know, phrase or whatever, it's like we
have to be really careful and be intentional about the
things that we say because sometimes you don't know how
(39:07):
people are going to interpret and internalize certain turns of phrase,
and you just can't know the deaths of Charlie and
Braden Powell didn't just devastate a family, They exposed a
catastrophic failure of oversight. Susan's parents, Chuck and Judy Cox,
(39:28):
filed a civil lawsuit against the Washington State Department of
Social and Health Services DSHS, arguing that the agency's negligence
in granting Joshua unsupervised access had cost the boys their lives.
This is like more than ten years after Susan disappeared
(39:49):
this next part. In July twenty nineteen, a Purece County
jury agreed jurors found DSHS negligent and awarded the Cox
family ninety eight point five million dollars for the pain
and suffering of seven year old Charlie and five year
old Braden. Don't holy no, don't get too excited.
Speaker 2 (40:11):
Just that's like crazy, that's a crazy.
Speaker 1 (40:13):
Yeah, it's funny you should say that. But weeks later,
Judge Stanley Rumbaugh reduced the verdict by two thirds to
about thirty two point eight million, calling the original award
shocking to the conscience of the court. Even so, he
admitted the facts were quote bound to bestir passion in
(40:34):
the hearts and minds of any rational person. Attorney Ted
Buck representing the Coxes, said the legal team would consult
with the family to decide the next steps. Those steps
came in April twenty twenty oh quite the timing.
Speaker 2 (40:50):
Fuck, how have they anything done?
Speaker 1 (40:54):
Took a long ass time. Those steps came in April
twenty twenty, when the Washington Court of Appeals reinstated the
full ninety eight point five million dollar verdict, writing that
there was substantial evidence supporting a significant award of non
economic damages based on the horrific and brutal deaths of
(41:16):
the two boys. The ruling gave the Cox family long
delayed vindication. Their longtime attorney, Ann Bremner called the opinion
beautifully written, adding simply, it's been.
Speaker 2 (41:29):
A long time.
Speaker 1 (41:31):
Yeah, it took until like April twenty twenty three for
the decision to come back. So this is like fifteen
years that Susan has been gone at that point, like
over a decade since the boys have been gone.
Speaker 2 (41:47):
Wow. That's also like really fucked up. Not that it's
about the money mm hmm. It's about them like winning
the thing, but like and then just to like not
even take the money away or whatever, give them a
lesser amount but to make them go through that for
years then and then to like what like that's why
(42:10):
just give him the ninety eight million and go move along.
You already said it. No, it takes backsies Like I
can't believe they were allowed to take vacsis. I mean,
I'm glad they got it in the end, and.
Speaker 1 (42:20):
Yeah, in the end, it was like no take backs. Today,
the West Valley City Police evidence room still houses boxes
labeled Powell case, Among them a single compact disc of
family photos, labeled in Susan's handwriting. On the cover, she
doodled hearts around her son's initials. Every anniversary, investigators revisit leads.
(42:45):
They no longer expect to find Susan alive, but they
want to find her period. The search continues in intervals, quiet, methodical,
more about honoring a promise than expecting a miracle, and
to this day, Susan Susan Cox Powell. I hate to
(43:06):
even refer to her like with the last name Powell,
to be honest, but.
Speaker 2 (43:11):
Yeah, but that's like her kids last names. It is.
I don't think she would be offended. No, I don't
mean I don't know her, but she.
Speaker 1 (43:18):
Has never been recovered, so it is a presumed thomicide,
But I think you know everything. Given everything that we
know about the case and everything that's happened in the
aftermath since her disappearance, it feels pretty safe to assume
that Susan likely died that night in December two thousand
(43:39):
and nine. And it's horrifying to think about what her
boys heard, what they saw, Yeah, and then to think
about what happened to them, just not even a handful
of years later, they were five and seven years old.
Speaker 2 (43:54):
I go by what the one little kid said in
the beginning, like mommy was in the trunk, and like, yeah,
you don't put people in the trunk that are usually alive, or.
Speaker 1 (44:04):
Yeah, and you don't leave mommy at the campsite when
everybody else leaves.
Speaker 2 (44:10):
Like people are not in the trunk for any good reason,
you know, Like no, they're either passed away back there
or there someone wants them to be.
Speaker 1 (44:19):
If you are someone you know feels trapped in a
relationship that doesn't feel safe, help us out there. You
can call or text the National Domestic Violence Hotline at
one eight hundred seven nine nine safe, or visit the
hotline dot.
Speaker 2 (44:37):
Org shoe fly.
Speaker 1 (44:44):
So here we are for terror Party part No, where
are we feeling left? I feel like it's kind of
bunching up on the other Yeah, okay, that's so funny.
Speaker 2 (44:56):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (44:57):
Oh, we are getting all types of new cards. Okay,
so this one is really cool. This looks like the
seven of Cups and it shows a dragonfly and there's like,
that's a lily pad down at the bottom. But oh yeah,
so it shows the lily pad and then it shows
the dragonfly reflected in the water. Okay, so we drew
(45:21):
that in the reverse as well, which is really interesting.
Speaker 2 (45:24):
Tell us what kind of dragonfly it is? From the
P ANDW deck.
Speaker 1 (45:28):
This is a Pacific fork tail damsel fly?
Speaker 2 (45:33):
Oh, a damsel in distress. Okay.
Speaker 1 (45:36):
So keywords in our P and W book are dreams, imagination, fantasy, daydreaming, illusions, choices, indecision.
Speaker 2 (45:49):
Oh. Illusion is like kind of a good one for this. Yeah,
like the illusion of being a nice LDS family and
you a.
Speaker 1 (46:00):
Lot of illusions really, But.
Speaker 2 (46:02):
You know, I was thinking to like living on where
did they live on? Sarah? Sarah Circle? Sarah Circle? Like
it sounds so nice and like wholesome in it.
Speaker 1 (46:11):
It does?
Speaker 2 (46:12):
It wasn't it?
Speaker 1 (46:12):
Was an illusion down here. It's dark and quiet. Oh,
the water flows smoothly along its winding currents, and the
sediment and lily leaves collaborate to cast the muddy floor
in shade. But if you look up you might catch
a glimpse of light and color. The image will be
(46:35):
distorted dream like a flash of lapis lazuli, a strobing
diamond flicker time to rapid wing beats, a ripple of
deep black that catches the sun like opal.
Speaker 2 (46:50):
WHOA, that's kind of weird because we were literally just
talking about a tailor with opal light.
Speaker 1 (46:57):
Yeah, there's actually some other like iconography that in both
of the tarots kind of have related to our offline conversations.
Speaker 2 (47:07):
That's kind of very weird.
Speaker 1 (47:09):
I'm not going to get into it.
Speaker 2 (47:11):
Yeah, it was offline, but it was an offline conversation.
Speaker 1 (47:15):
To see it, clearly, you'll have to approach pursue, leave
behind the safe familiarity of the underwater glade, and vault
into the light. The sunlight will stun you into momentary blindness,
and the muffled murmur of the water will give way
to a roar of crashing and burbling. But regaining your bearings.
(47:39):
You can see the damsel fly clearly free from refractions.
Up close, it looks only a little like you expected,
but it's no less spectacular.
Speaker 2 (47:50):
Wow. Why do I feel like she's like in the
water somewhere.
Speaker 1 (47:56):
Yeah, that was kind of my first thought. I mean,
it's so hard because it's like so much desert and
shit around there, right right, Yeah, like maybe they weren't.
Maybe he was trying to like throw them off. He
did spend a lot of time driving around, you know,
the lake, right.
Speaker 2 (48:12):
Salt Lake area. So oh no, I don't know. I mean, god,
I mean, obviously we don't know. But you're totally right.
I forgot that you'd said that about the lake.
Speaker 1 (48:25):
Keywords are possibilities, potential, imagination, fantasy, and we drew this
in the reverse.
Speaker 2 (48:34):
I love that other keyword on the the little Interpretation
book about the illusion. I feel like that adds so much.
It does.
Speaker 1 (48:43):
The reverse seven can mean either you're in a fog
about your future, or conversely, you're finally gaining clarity about
your direction in life. Perhaps dreams you health in the
past no longer interest you, and you're replacing them with
new goals.
Speaker 2 (49:00):
She plan, did you mention? She was planning to leave
him or was she just.
Speaker 1 (49:04):
Writing about I mean, I have to assume that the
thought had potentially entered her mind, but I at least
did not really come across anything concrete that was saying
she had a plan in place to leave, But it
seemed like she was more in a defensive position at
(49:24):
this stage. It was about protecting you know, herself, their
financial assets, you know that were primarily due to what
she had provided, and then you know, obviously protecting their children.
Speaker 2 (49:39):
That protective like crab thing we were talking about in
the first harrow.
Speaker 1 (49:44):
In a reading about money, deception is a possibility someone
else may be unreliable ding ding ding ding ding, or
you may be deceiving yourself, or both. Two things can
be true. Two things can be true. If the reading
is about your job. Your ideas and projects may not
bear fruit. Someone's didn't, Yeah, partly because you lack the
(50:09):
incentive and focus to move them along. Perhaps you feel
lazy or uninspired. You'd rather dream than work. Listen, Hey,
if the shoe fits Cinderella. In a reading about love,
the reverse seven can indicate lack of commitment or indecision.
In a romantic affair, you may want to keep your
options open indefinitely, or you may idealize a relationship all
(50:34):
out of proportion, refusing to see the truth.
Speaker 2 (50:37):
Ooh, that's like the dad who was obsessed the step dad.
Speaker 1 (50:42):
No, it was her father in law.
Speaker 2 (50:44):
That's what I Oh, that's what I meant. Just that
my brain just like can't it's I'm so grossed out
by it.
Speaker 1 (50:50):
It's really gross. Yeah, not really great, that would be worse. No, honestly,
they're all bad. It's all bad. There's no scenario where
someone who's in a father type figure in your life
becomes obsessed with you and it is literally like stalking.
Speaker 2 (51:05):
You and stealing their items and like taking photos of you. Yeah,
that's so gross. Like he was so delusional.
Speaker 1 (51:14):
There's no there's just no way. That's not like the
creepiest thing like it is. It's terrible. I hate it all?
Speaker 2 (51:23):
Right?
Speaker 1 (51:23):
Well was that it?
Speaker 2 (51:25):
Yeah? Wait? Okay, so we got sevens on both tarots, right, Yeah,
you're right. What does that mean though? When we pulled
two sevens? I want to know what that means? You know,
what does it mean? You guys?
Speaker 1 (51:37):
I mean, I guess we could just look at numerism, right,
or is that the right word numerology, numerology.
Speaker 2 (51:44):
Yeah, numerism, numerism, new words.
Speaker 1 (51:47):
Okay, I don't know, I don't know what bearing. I
feel like this maybe has. But in numerology, the number
seven symbolizes intellectualism, spirituality, and intuition. It represents the seeker
of truth and knowledge, a person who is often introspective, analytical,
and a deep thinker. Okay, I I think I'm seeing
(52:10):
it now.
Speaker 2 (52:11):
It's definitely not Josh.
Speaker 1 (52:13):
Yeah, uh huh, I feel like this is this is Susan.
Speaker 2 (52:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (52:19):
Those associated with the number seven are drawn to philosophy
and a deeper understanding of the world, but their introspective
nature can also lead to emotional detachment or loneliness. Says
highly intelligent, logical, and curious, interesting, a very deeply spiritual
(52:39):
nature seeking deeper meaning.
Speaker 2 (52:42):
Well, yeah, if she was part of like this religion,
she's got to be very spiritual. Yeah. Also her being
so intuitive to kind of like write things down and
make like a little paper trail of like if I disappear,
you know, my not be an accident. Like that's very
intuitive of her.
Speaker 1 (53:03):
I was just gonna say, so I looked at this
a little bit deeper and I just think this is
kind of an interesting perspective from numerology. It says analytical
and intellectual sevens are deep thinkers and logical problem solvers
who enjoy research and investigation. Oh, they don't take things
(53:25):
at face value and need facts and personal experience to
form their beliefs. Highly perceptive and insightful. Wise with a
deep understanding of human nature.
Speaker 2 (53:37):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (53:38):
In connection with religion, I just found this just as
I'm like scrolling, just for some numerology in sight. It
says the number seven holds significant meaning across many different
cultures and belief systems. So if we're looking at it
from like a Christian biblical sense, it says it symbolizes
(54:00):
divine perfection and completeness e g. The seven days of creation.
Speaker 2 (54:08):
Mm hmmm that is really Oh boy, ruin it that
I went? I went to ring on you guys?
Speaker 1 (54:17):
My bad.
Speaker 2 (54:18):
I know, I went up on your asses.
Speaker 1 (54:20):
That's triggering for me.
Speaker 2 (54:25):
Have a crea see you next, fuday.
Speaker 1 (54:32):
Oh boy,
Psychologists later cited the Powell case as a textbook example
of coercive control, the slow corrosion of autonomy that too
often ends in lethal violence. Chuck and Judy Cox transformed
their grief into advocacy through the Susan Cox Powell Foundation.
They fund programs addressing intimate partner homicide risk and missing
(00:25):
persons awareness. They speak often about early intervention, warning signs, isolation,
financial control, threats, mascles, jokes, Hi, Cassie, Hi, Caitlin, Hi,
creepy people.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Oh Hello, this.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
Is PNW, Haunts and homicides where we chat about true crime,
the paranormal, whatever strikes our fancy.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
In the Pacific Northwest, oh, the p.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
And w if Yes. We also do a Tarot reading
at the end of every episode for a little bit
of deeper insight into our topic. Anything else I was
gonna say, And our topic today is extended from last week.
Ah yeah, part adieu and with that, without further adull,
(01:21):
it's duh. In the weeks after Susan Powell vanished on
December sixth, two thousand and nine, from her Utah home,
investigators followed every possible lead. Searchers scowled, scowled. They scowled.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
You know, I'm sure they scowled real hard at Joshua.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
I mean they honestly did. But also searchers scoured hundreds
of miles of Utah desert mine shafts, remote campgrounds, storage
units rented under variations of Josh's name.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
Oh, he had like a bunch of different storage units.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
You know, I didn't really tug at this thread, but
I think that they were just looking for like a
situation where he might be using an alias or you
know what I'm saying.
Speaker 2 (02:11):
Is that legal? They just search a bunch of random
people's storage units.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
I mean, if they've got probable cause they have warrants.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
That just seems like how would they get a warrant
for that? Most they could prove it was his storage unit?
And that's that's really interesting though. Yeah, I can see
why that's like kind of a big thread to go
down or a big hole to go down, but.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
Exactly, and it's like, you know, that's probably not going
to yield all that much.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
But you know, we're interested in that. All it is.
I know you mentioned something and I'm like, wait, I
want to know about.
Speaker 1 (02:50):
And I'm like, but wait, there's not more.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
And there this is such a small piece of the
story that it does not matter.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
But yeah, I'm like, not even at the end of
the first paragraph, and you're like, but I have questions.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
This is where we need like an accompanied what's that called,
like accompanying podcast?
Speaker 1 (03:09):
Oh, like a companion podcast.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
Like a companion podcast where we have like a lawyer,
like a cop or someone come on and explain how
this would happen. Yeah, any cops are lawyers interested in
wanting to be our companion. You will get no money.
It just seems like, oh my god, if if another
CASAD committed a crime and they came and searched my
(03:32):
storage unit, yeah, I would feel extremely violated.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
Yeah, I mean, and and you wouldn't necessarily be entirely wrong,
but you know, they're gonna do what they gotta do.
They dug and sifted through snow and held vigils that
blurred one winter into the next. Cadaver dogs alerted twice
in the Simpson Springs area, but snow and wind wiped
(03:58):
away what little scent existed. But for all the movement,
no one could shake the feeling that the case had
frozen in place, stuck between what investigators suspected and what
they could prove. Detectives later said they believed Susan's body
had been moved multiple times. Oh yeah, oh god, speaking
(04:23):
of chills, Like just.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
To bury someone anyway that you've murdered, it's just like
so well gross.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
But even saying buried, that's a presumption.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
You don't know. I guess I'm saying, like doing whatever
they're doing, disposing of the body or wherever they're prying.
It is so gross anyway that.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
Moving it all.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
Times is such yeah, desecration, like disrespect. It is. Ye,
no rest like she's already gone, let her have some peace. Wow.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
Detectives kept surveillance on Josh's house for weeks. They collected trash,
watched his comings and goings, and noted how he start
his car, sit for long stretches, then drive aimlessly.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
Hm. That's I don't know, that's weird.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
I mean, it's odd, but nothing necessarily criminal about.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
It, right? Is that what he was like used to
doing when he would like pretend to go to work
or something like, you.
Speaker 1 (05:25):
Know what, Honestly, it's a fair point.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
It's just his routine. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
On more than one occasion, he circled the Great Salt
Lake's western rim miles of open desert that could hide
almost anything. Through it all, Josh maintained a routine that
unnerved even his friends, as did his referring to Susan
in the past tense so shortly after her disappearance. God,
(05:52):
come on, you're not even a good liar, not even close.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
I mean we've kind of established that in part one. Well, yeah,
I can't even pretend a little bit here.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
Come on, Yeah, Like I can't even give you an.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
A for effort for like what a day. He kind
of pretended to be maybe a little concerned.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
Honestly, it doesn't sound like he was very convincing to
hardly anyone. Yeah, like pretty much from the start, like
anybody that actually got a glimpse, they really just didn't
believe him. Like his story was unbelievable, His demeanor was suspicious.
Everything about this just reeked of.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
Like what the fuck. I wonder if like he felt
like he was gonna get caught, or if he was
just walking around like thinking he was gonna get away
with it or whatever. I mean, I still don't know
either way, But I'm just like I'm wondering where his head. Yeah,
I want to know where his head. But that, as
gross as that sounds, I'm just curious.
Speaker 1 (06:49):
I'm not sure that we're really gonna get a solid
answer on that, but I'm gonna give you, like, there
are some things that we know and that are documented
that maybe makes you feel like you get a little
bit of a glimpse for better or for worse.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
Uh, this is why I wanted, like, I'm going to
be a criminal investigator, because I'm like, I want to
know what the murderer is thinking. You say that, but
obviously I didn't do it.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
No, I mean, it's like the curiosity gets the better review,
for sure. As the weeks bled into months, frustration hardened
into anger. Online forums accused police of moving too slowly.
Others dissected every nine to one one call an interview
transcript as if the truth might appear by sheer force
(07:37):
of attention. Church members brought meals to Josh for a while,
until his demeanor drove them away. One neighbor recalled he'd
talk about camping again, like that wasn't the weirdest thing
in the world. It was like he thought, if he
said it enough, we'd all start believing him.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
Like, is he talking about that same camping trip or
like future camping trips, or he's just like always talking
about camping.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
Yeah, I mean, my understanding is that he was referencing
the infamous camping and they were just like, dude, why
are you like harping on this? And it just made
them so uncomfortable that they stopped doing the nice, you know,
church person thing of like bringing him in his fund's meals.
Speaker 2 (08:26):
Damn. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
But my understanding is that it was like he was
trying to like re cement with everybody that he was
speaking with, like this is like kind of the series
of events and trying to kind of cement his alibi,
so to speak.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
Yesh, how awkward, God, how awkward to be the people
that he was talking to about that lately, Like, dude,
just fuck off.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
Chilling recollections of previous conversations, made more disturbing by his
wife's disappearance, were shared with Investigators said Josh had made
comments about how to kill someone, dispose of the body,
and not get caught. At the time, he'd said he
would hide a body in a mine shaft in the
west desert of Utah, believing law enforcement was extremely unlikely
(09:16):
to search an unstable mind who was he saying this
to He's talking to just people about it, his coworkers.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
What the fuck?
Speaker 1 (09:25):
Not super safe for work? I gotta say, I thought
it was awkward before. Is that was this before?
Speaker 2 (09:32):
Or after? This was before?
Speaker 1 (09:34):
This predates Susan's disappearance. He is at least smart enough
to not talk about it after, but I mean just barely.
By summer twenty ten, the searches had slowed, though not
the obsession. Detectives combed mind shafts near Eli, Nevada. Volunteers
organized fundraisers each time Bone surfaced in the desert Hope
(09:59):
Flaire and died again.
Speaker 2 (10:02):
Shit, did they find other people? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (10:04):
They definitely found other bodies.
Speaker 2 (10:07):
Oh my god. Yeah. It's hard to know how to
feel or what to say about that, because it's like,
if she hadn't died, they wouldn't have found those other people.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
Maybe, but Jesus, yeah, I mean it's great that they
were able to find something that maybe they didn't even
know they should be looking for. Yeah, so it's like
maybe that's in a way sort of a silver lining.
But how disappointing to be going out and looking for
this woman and finding literally everything but her.
Speaker 2 (10:36):
I guess She answered my question too. If they searched Nevada,
they did. They did.
Speaker 1 (10:41):
In March twenty ten, Josh packed up what was left
of his Utah life and drove north to Washington with
Charlie and Braden to settle back into his hometown of
pu Yallop.
Speaker 2 (10:53):
No get tired. Yeah you stink? Yeah, not the kids,
Not the kids.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
The move felt like retreat, but he claimed he needed
family support. He moved in with his father, Steve Powell,
the same man who'd once written love songs to Susan.
The children had told their maternal grandparents all about Grandpa's
weird songs about Mommy.
Speaker 2 (11:19):
I forgot about him. M ew so this was his dad? Yep,
but did that? Yeah? Okay, yeah that is just like God,
what is their obsession with this one woman?
Speaker 1 (11:34):
Yeah. Back in Puollup, Josh reinvented himself as a single father.
He blogged about parenting and posted photos of the boys
at playgrounds. Every image looked staged, two small boys smiling
because someone told them to. By late twenty eleven, Josh's
veneer of cooperation was cracking. His sister Jennifer warned authorities,
(12:00):
believing he was on a slow March towards something terrible.
That's when she agreed to wear a wire. So technically
before twenty eleven, because January twenty second, twenty ten, Jennifer
and her husband visited her father's house, So twenty ten
she wears the wire. Twenty eleven is really when like
(12:24):
the custody things starts to heat up. It's like this
kind of period of time where things are just it's
so hard to map it on a timeline because when
you say, like his veneer was cracking, it's like what veneer?
Speaker 2 (12:41):
And uh huh.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
Also, it's literally like the cracks were in the surface
from the start, It's right, yeah, anyway, if they were.
January twenty second, twenty ten, Jennifer and her husband visited
her father's house. There she attempted to confront her brother
and ask some burning questions. So you remember how there
were over forty documented inconsistencies and his story within like
(13:08):
the first week of Susan's disappearance. Yeah, that explains this
next part because Josh told her there's a recording of
him saying this. Josh said his attorney had advised that
he not talk about specifics because he can't keep the
details straight, right, Okay, And also it like in general,
(13:33):
even if you are, you know, actually someone that the
public presumes is potentially innocent, like you just shouldn't be
talking about the details of the case with people that
you like, don't trust, or more importantly, probably anyone outside
your legal team realistically, right.
Speaker 2 (13:52):
Yeah, because anything can be taken like out of context.
Speaker 1 (13:55):
Yep, yeah, you're feeding the prosecution essentially.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
He has a lot of very specific things even taken
out of context or in context, looks suspicious.
Speaker 1 (14:06):
But yeah, Steve interrupted their conversation and turned on Jennifer.
It got ugly, with her father levying threats against her
and the couple left. He was literally like swearing at her,
screaming at her. He threatened her life. Once safely back
in her car, Jennifer may have been slightly shaken emotionally
(14:27):
from the conflict, but her conviction was firm as ever
that Josh had something to do with Susan's disappearance.
Speaker 2 (14:34):
So they have it on recording that he was like
yelling at her and stuff. Geez. That's like the thing
that makes me really nervous too, is even if they're
listening to you wearing a wire, like they could come
in and theoretically save you if that person, you know,
doesn't kill you or hurt you, you know, before they
get there.
Speaker 1 (14:53):
Yeah, I don't know that this was a situation where
law enforcement was like on standby. Yeah, they were just recording, right, Yeah,
so her safety.
Speaker 2 (15:03):
It's even more dangerous. Yep. Holy shit.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
The recording didn't yield a confession, but it gave investigators
another glimpse into the family's twisted orbit and confirmed that
fear now guided every conversation. If the recording was any indication,
it wouldn't be long before the search for Susan was
competing with something darker, the unraveling of the Powell family itself.
(15:31):
A father in law obsessed, a husband growing stranger by
the day, and two little boys caught in the poll
of a story that should have ended differently. The following year,
twenty eleven, brought Steve Powell's arrest for voyeurism and possession
of child pornography charges.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
No, that's it.
Speaker 1 (15:54):
The search of Steve Powell's home uncovered thousands of photos
and journals fixated on Susan. Some were taken through windows,
others were close ups clearly snapped without her knowledge or consent.
Speaker 3 (16:06):
Were there like sleeping pictures of her, No, they were
primarily photos that appear to have been captured, like when
she was like out in public places, Like I think
some of them were probably taken in like the parking
lot of her workplace, things like that.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
Oh, that's right, you did kind of say that, yeah,
which I don't know. They're both creepy, like if he
was like sneaking picks at home, but for some reason,
I was thinking it was like a home thing. But
like he was following her around in her life too,
And huh did they live with him?
Speaker 1 (16:38):
They did at one point, yeah, before they moved to Utah.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
Yeah. Oh.
Speaker 1 (16:43):
The discovery confirmed what Susan had confided years earlier that
she'd felt watched, even from miles away. When news broke
that he had hundreds of images of Susan, the public
outrage reignited the case. The discovery function like a mirror
every suspicion about Josh reflected through his father's obsessions, exposing
(17:07):
the family's toxic center manipulation masquerading as devotion. The revelations
also deepened the psychological portrait of Josh's upbringing, one shaped
by dysfunction, surveillance and sexual boundary violations. Investigators began to
reframe Josh not merely as a suspect, but as a
(17:29):
product of his father's warped moral universe. Washington child welfare
officials removed the boys from Josh's custody following Steve's arrest,
citing the home's sexualized environment and Josh's unresolved status as
a person of interest, granting temporary custody to Susan's parents.
(17:49):
Steve had also been a person of interest in Susan's case.
Josh's psychological evaluations described him as narcissistic, emotionally immature, and
potentially violent if cornered. He attended mandated parenting classes and
began building a paper trail of compliance.
Speaker 2 (18:11):
So he's been a good little boy.
Speaker 1 (18:14):
Well, he's doing his version of that. His sister, Jennifer Graves,
would prove an invaluable witness in the case against her father.
She testified that her father used to capture photographs of
two young girls in the neighborhood outside of the courtroom.
She spoke to reporters stating, more than ever, I'm convinced
(18:36):
that the boys shouldn't be with Josh, and they certainly
never should have been with my dad. She was glad
that her family had cut ties with her father long
ago for the sake of their own children, and that
now Susan and Josh's would be removed.
Speaker 2 (18:52):
Oh my gosh, so like even his kids like knew
what was going on. Well, it's funny you should say that.
She has also voiced suspicions about what Josh might have
known about, you know, the child pornography.
Speaker 1 (19:10):
And I mean, she really didn't believe in giving either
of these men the benefit of the doubt, and why
should she. It was around this time that child welfare
agents started documenting Josh's volatility in court records. He interrupted
supervised visits to Bert's staff, insisted the children were brainwashed,
(19:34):
and refused to answer direct questions about Susan. The Coxes
meanwhile moved to permanently terminate his parental rights, believing it
was safest for Charlie and Braden to remain in their care.
For a moment, it seemed the system might protect them
until February fifth, twenty twelve, when it didn't. Sunday, February fifth,
(20:00):
twenty twelve was a gray day in Graham, Washington. The
boys were playing happily as the time of their supervised
visit with their father approached, and they honestly didn't really
want to go.
Speaker 2 (20:12):
I can't blame them.
Speaker 1 (20:14):
Judy Cox, Susan's mother coaxed them to proceed with their
visit as planned. Case worker Elizabeth, who was supervising the
boy's visit, pulled into Josh Powell's driveway at eighty one
nineteen one hundred and eighty ninth Street Court East just
before noon. Which street Court? What are we doing here? People?
Speaker 2 (20:36):
I got? I was like, huh, couldn't decide?
Speaker 1 (20:39):
We did bo Street Court East, for fock's sake. It's
hardly the most upsetting part of this, but one hour,
two boys and a father under scrutiny. When she stepped
from her car, Charlie and Braden sprinted ahead, excited to
see their dad. Because of course, by the time they
get there and they actually see their dad, I'm sure
(21:01):
they are excited to see him.
Speaker 2 (21:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:03):
Josh smiled, ushered them inside, and then slammed.
Speaker 2 (21:07):
The door with all the supervisor.
Speaker 1 (21:09):
In Elizabeth's face. Oh shit, Elizabeth's knock met silence. Elizabeth
frantically dialed nine one one, the call coming in at
two o eight pm. According to the call logs, she
desperately tried to explain the details and the severity of
the circumstances to the dispatcher in one of the most
frustrating nine one one calls I've ever listened to. The
(21:33):
dispatcher's voice stayed maddeningly calm, clearly not grasping the seriousness
of the situation. Here's an excerpt from the tail end
of the call. Elizabeth, Okay, how long will it be?
She's asking how long before officers will be there? Nine
one one operator. I don't know, ma'am. They have to
(21:53):
respond to emergency, life threatening situations first. The first available
deputy will respect Elizabeth said, this could be life threatening.
He went to court on Wednesday and he didn't bring
his kids back, and this is really I'm afraid for
their lives. Nine one one operator, Okay, has he threatened
(22:16):
the lives of the children previously?
Speaker 2 (22:18):
Elizabeth?
Speaker 1 (22:19):
I have no idea nine one one operator, all right, Well,
we'll have the first available deputy contact you. Elizabeth, Thank you,
nine one one operator. Bye. There are a handful of
minutes back and forth. She's trying to explain who she is,
why she is, where she is, who she is interacting with,
(22:46):
and in relation to what the situation is. And this
dispatcher just for the life of her could not understand
what was going on. Apparently it kind of fell like
watching clips of Clinton saying it depends on what you
think is.
Speaker 2 (23:05):
Is wow, I just like, I guess I assumed that
if someone is supervising a visit from a parent who
is like that, where they've kind of established like he
might be violent, didn't they.
Speaker 1 (23:22):
I mean, yeah, it's well established. I don't you can't
have your kids, So Dave Thatcher doesn't necessarily have that context, right.
I was tempted to read the entirety of the transcript
because it is literally like it will just make you
want to bang your head against the wall until it bleeds.
Speaker 2 (23:42):
Well, right, that's kind of what I'm getting at, is
like I assumed that there was some sort of direct
line I guess to like the police, you know, where
there's not that explaining the situation because the situation kind
of our I.
Speaker 1 (23:56):
Think the situation actually isn't that complicated. I think this
is a real failure.
Speaker 2 (24:02):
It's just crazy because like they're supervised for a reason,
then they can't even get help. Like, that's nuts to me. Yeah,
that does not make me feel safe. Yeah, and not
that I need to feel safe, but that doesn't make
me feel like any kid is safe anywhere, even from
a supervise, does it. That's insane?
Speaker 1 (24:19):
Yeah, I would argue, Yeah, that's a little insane.
Speaker 2 (24:23):
What is the point?
Speaker 1 (24:24):
Here's the thing. Elizabeth the caseworker, her full legal name,
is out there in association with this case. And I
think you'll see later there are a lot of people
that are gonna have a lot of strong feelings about
how all of this shit went down. And I'll be
(24:45):
honest with you, I'm not super familiar with what all
of the protocols would be for somebody in her position,
But what the fuck was she supposed to do? I
don't think she did anything wrong. She's children to this
supervised visit, and you know, they're excited now they see
their dad in front of them and they go running
(25:07):
in the door. And she did the right thing. She
immediately like called nine one one when she's like I've
been knocking, I'm not hearing him, like coming back to
the door, like what is happening? Yeah, that is not
the person that I feel like and I don't, you know,
it's not like I want to lay the blame at
any one person's feet if you had to decide person that, like,
(25:31):
this wasn't their best day, this wasn't their best moment,
was the dispatcher, And truth be told, I'm not sure
that anything that that person did made that big of
a difference. But it's a frustrating layer of just what
the fuck?
Speaker 2 (25:49):
I guess it's like it's hard to even know what
to do because like, not not all parents that need
supervised visits or you're like criminals with murder investigations going on,
but yeah, they need just like a life alert button,
you know, like some sunder.
Speaker 1 (26:04):
Button, like hey, yeah, yeah, even that I don't think
would have made a difference. Unfortunately, Elizabeth's concern for the
boys was well founded. She'd begun to smell gasoline emanating
from the house while on the call with the dispatcher.
By twelve sixteen, the dispatcher was notified that two units
(26:27):
from the Sheriff's office were being sent to respond to
the call. By then, it was already too late. Just
a moment prior, at twelve fifteen pm, the home had
erupted the explosion, flattening the structure and setting neighboring pines alight.
By twelve twenty nine pm, the first unit had arrived
at the scene, though by then the home was already
(26:49):
completely engulfed in flames.
Speaker 2 (26:51):
Holy shit, he blew up his fucking house.
Speaker 1 (26:54):
Yeah, the massive explosion of the home had blown the
roof clean off, sending debris flying. The inferno burned hot
enough to melt siding and send plumes of black smoke
curling over the quiet cul de sac in Graham, Washington,
a community just a few miles from where Josh grew up.
And this is important because with an explosion, obviously there's
(27:16):
a lot of sound, there's a lot of debris, a
lot of confusion, But Pierce County investigators ruled out any gunfire.
Investigators would later find a five gallon gas can in
the center of the home, where the bodies were also discovered.
They also recovered a hatchet near the entryway that had
(27:38):
apparently been used to attack the boys before Josh ignited
the fuel. Both Charlie and Braden had suffered what were
described as chop injuries. For all three, their official cause
of death was carbon monoxide poisoning, though Josh's death was
classified as a suicide, so.
Speaker 2 (27:59):
They weren't even passed away when he let them on fire. Nope.
Speaker 1 (28:02):
Oh my god, he took an axe to the head
and neck of his boys.
Speaker 2 (28:11):
How could you do that? Oh my god? It was
obviously like planned if he had a bunch of gasoline
in the house and you're not just walking with the hatchet.
Speaker 1 (28:21):
And we have a lot of information about things that happened,
things that came to light that show this was truly premeditated, right.
Speaker 2 (28:33):
And he knew he had to get them in there
quick and like shut the door and do it quick
before yep.
Speaker 1 (28:38):
I mean, she's probably lucky that he didn't let her in.
Speaker 2 (28:41):
I know I was thinking that too.
Speaker 1 (28:44):
Because I'm sure he would have honestly killed all four
of them. Public fury erupted. Commentators dissected the failures of
communication between Utah investigators, Washington Child Services staff, and the courts.
Chuck Cox, that's Susan's father, later said the system quote
(29:07):
gave Josh Powell every benefit of the doubt until there
was nothing left to doubt. Literally, the fire that tore
through Josh Powell's rental home just south of his hometown
wasn't just a tragedy. It was a final act of violence.
But the story didn't end there. In the aftermath, chilling
(29:27):
digital breadcrumbs began to surface. Powell had sent emails in
the minutes before the explosion, instructions about his utilities, his
bank accounts, and the remnants of his life. Moments before
the flames, his attorney received a final message, I'm sorry, goodbye.
He'd even donated some of the boys toys and games
(29:49):
to Goodwill days earlier.
Speaker 2 (29:51):
That seems weird to me.
Speaker 1 (29:54):
It's very weird, but it's all very clear that it's
part of it, Like it's all part of a premeditated plan.
Speaker 2 (30:03):
Yeah, But like why would he even go through the
trouble of that, I don't know, Like he's going to
explode the house, Like why do you need to get
rid of things? Why do you care that much about
other kids having these toys? But you're going to kill
your children?
Speaker 1 (30:18):
Yeah, I would say that's probably it's one of several
Like it's it's one of many things that are just
it's so confusing. It's so confusing. How how how is
that important enough to take the time out of your
day to go and make this donation. But yeah, you
attack your own children with a hatchet and literally let
(30:42):
them die in a house fire caused by an explosion.
Speaker 2 (30:48):
That is so creepy to me for some reason.
Speaker 1 (30:51):
Yeah, detective said. One voicemail obtained by family and ABC
News captured his parting words, I'm sorry to everyone I've
heard goodbye. There was no mention of susan, not one
word wow. Within weeks, Washington's Department of Social and Health
(31:15):
Services launched an internal review. The findings were blunt risk
assessment guidelines hadn't accounted for domestic violence related homicide indicators,
control isolation, obsession. Lawmakers responded quickly the aftermath tightened visitation protocols,
requiring thorough danger assessments and safe facility visits when a
(31:39):
parent is under active investigation for violent crime. There's no
official Charlie and Braden act like we see a lot
of times in kind of the response and the aftermath
of these cases. But this case is what spurred a
lot of these changes. It's frustrating in a way, though,
because it feels like there should be something that's like
(32:01):
in their name specifically, you know what I mean?
Speaker 2 (32:05):
Yeah, Because clearly I mean they died for it, you know. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:11):
In Utah, West Valley City police reclassified Susan's case from
missing person to probable homicide. They publicly acknowledged everyone already
knew she hadn't walked away. Just over a year after
Josh died by suicide after killing their sons, his brother,
Michael Powell, died by suicide when he jumped from a
(32:34):
multi story parking structure in Minnesota.
Speaker 2 (32:37):
Jesus themes in the fam.
Speaker 1 (32:40):
Law enforcement released a statement later in twenty thirteen related
to Susan's case, closure indicating that he had been heavily
investigated and they believed had intimate involvement. Many believe he
helped Josh, either when initially disposing of Susan's body or
when he moved it. At some point the brother did, yes,
(33:04):
that's what they believed. There's a lot of suspicion still
surrounding essentially all of the Powell men. People believe that
either his father and or his brother had involvement in
Susan's disappearance.
Speaker 2 (33:20):
What the fuck did this guy do to his kids?
Holy shit?
Speaker 1 (33:24):
While lawsuits unfolded, Stephen Powell was convicted in Pierce County
of voyeurism and later for possession of child pornography. They
actually tried to overturn his conviction and that was briefly successful,
and then it was reinstated.
Speaker 2 (33:41):
Thank gosh, Thank gosh, Josh, why would they do that
in the first place. That's upsetting.
Speaker 1 (33:50):
I didn't pull it that thread either, because there's still
so much more and I can't believe I'm saying that
at this point. He served multiple state prison terms and
was released in July twenty seventeen, And this is probably
the most compelling evidence that there might in fact be
(34:10):
a god. Less than a year later, in July twenty eighteen,
he died from a heart related illness.
Speaker 2 (34:17):
Oh, I was gonna say, so, like he fucking got out.
That's upsetting.
Speaker 1 (34:21):
It is upsetting a fuck, yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:25):
I mean it's just a little you know, little child
the porn and lights stalking, and it's fine. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (34:32):
Well, And I mean the thing that like I also
kind of struggled with in talking about like his case specifically,
is that like child pornography is also not really it
is in most states still the correct like legal nomenclature,
but this is child sex abuse material. It's not pornography
(34:58):
that is true. Yeah, So I hate saying that, but.
Speaker 2 (35:03):
I guess I just didn't really know another term for it.
So yeah, thank you for saying that, because I I guess, yeah,
I don't want pornography is not a bad word, right.
Speaker 1 (35:12):
Well, and like there is such a difference between like
consenting adults and what this is.
Speaker 2 (35:20):
You're blowing my mind, Caitlin, I love you.
Speaker 1 (35:24):
I kind of hate me a little bit today.
Speaker 2 (35:26):
Why why no? I love you?
Speaker 1 (35:29):
This is just really awful.
Speaker 2 (35:31):
It's awful, but and.
Speaker 1 (35:33):
One of you fuckers requested this.
Speaker 2 (35:36):
You creepy fucks. But we're learning, and.
Speaker 1 (35:40):
I feel like it's it's a really important story. Is
There a lot of patterns and themes that we've talked
about before, But the more that we talk about them,
the more that like we can try to help the
people that are potentially falling prey to them, and the
more that we can try to bring awareness and provide
(36:04):
resources to people so that things like this don't happen.
Jennifer Graves wrote a memoir A Light in Dark Places,
trying to salvage meaning from the wreckage of her family name.
She's literally lost her father and her two brothers and
(36:25):
her two.
Speaker 2 (36:25):
Nephews, like sister in law right two.
Speaker 1 (36:31):
Yeah, I'm just thinking about it like in terms of
like her direct like family line, but like to her,
like the loss of Susan was like really devastating too,
And I feel like it can't be overstated that, like
she wasn't one of those people that's like an apologist
for the bad behavior of her you know, male relatives,
(36:54):
and like that takes a lot, especially having grown up
in the type of environ that I'm imagining that her.
You know that the Powell children you know did.
Speaker 2 (37:07):
Yeah, and look how i mean, look how the other
two turned out. Like she could have easily turned out
a piece of shit too, but she didn't. Yeah, So
you don't have to turn out like that. You have
a choice. Maybe go to therapy that might help.
Speaker 1 (37:20):
Yeah, I mean, never hurts, except that one time. There
is that one case that was real bad.
Speaker 2 (37:28):
Oh Jesus, Yeah, that's scary too. God, thanks Caitlin.
Speaker 1 (37:33):
Her voice joins a growing chorus of survivors teaching how
control escalates to catastrophe. Psychologists later cited the Powell case
as a textbook example of coercive control the slow corrosion
of autonomy that two often ends in lethal violence. Chuck
(37:55):
and Judy Cox transformed their grief into advocacy through this
US and Cox Powell Foundation. They fund programs addressing intimate
partner homicide risk and missing person's awareness. They speak often
about early intervention, warning signs, isolation, financial control, threats, maskless jokes.
(38:18):
But if somebody is making jokes about hurting you, hurting
your family, your children, it's not a joke or even.
Speaker 2 (38:27):
Just like subtle jokes about like misogyny. Yeah, get in
the kitchen and make me a sandwich. Ha ha ha.
But like I sometimes I catch myself saying that, like,
but that's like actually not very funny, No, no, exactly,
and that could be like threatening in like such a
subtle way.
Speaker 1 (38:45):
Well, and I think that's something that we have to
really like be careful as women, Like even if we
think we're making a joke where we're like sort of
reclaiming this you know, phrase or whatever, it's like we
have to be really careful and be intentional about the
things that we say because sometimes you don't know how
(39:07):
people are going to interpret and internalize certain turns of phrase,
and you just can't know the deaths of Charlie and
Braden Powell didn't just devastate a family, They exposed a
catastrophic failure of oversight. Susan's parents, Chuck and Judy Cox,
(39:28):
filed a civil lawsuit against the Washington State Department of
Social and Health Services DSHS, arguing that the agency's negligence
in granting Joshua unsupervised access had cost the boys their lives.
This is like more than ten years after Susan disappeared
(39:49):
this next part. In July twenty nineteen, a Purece County
jury agreed jurors found DSHS negligent and awarded the Cox
family ninety eight point five million dollars for the pain
and suffering of seven year old Charlie and five year
old Braden. Don't holy no, don't get too excited.
Speaker 2 (40:11):
Just that's like crazy, that's a crazy.
Speaker 1 (40:13):
Yeah, it's funny you should say that. But weeks later,
Judge Stanley Rumbaugh reduced the verdict by two thirds to
about thirty two point eight million, calling the original award
shocking to the conscience of the court. Even so, he
admitted the facts were quote bound to bestir passion in
(40:34):
the hearts and minds of any rational person. Attorney Ted
Buck representing the Coxes, said the legal team would consult
with the family to decide the next steps. Those steps
came in April twenty twenty oh quite the timing.
Speaker 2 (40:50):
Fuck, how have they anything done?
Speaker 1 (40:54):
Took a long ass time. Those steps came in April
twenty twenty, when the Washington Court of Appeals reinstated the
full ninety eight point five million dollar verdict, writing that
there was substantial evidence supporting a significant award of non
economic damages based on the horrific and brutal deaths of
(41:16):
the two boys. The ruling gave the Cox family long
delayed vindication. Their longtime attorney, Ann Bremner called the opinion
beautifully written, adding simply, it's been.
Speaker 2 (41:29):
A long time.
Speaker 1 (41:31):
Yeah, it took until like April twenty twenty three for
the decision to come back. So this is like fifteen
years that Susan has been gone at that point, like
over a decade since the boys have been gone.
Speaker 2 (41:47):
Wow. That's also like really fucked up. Not that it's
about the money mm hmm. It's about them like winning
the thing, but like and then just to like not
even take the money away or whatever, give them a
lesser amount but to make them go through that for
years then and then to like what like that's why
(42:10):
just give him the ninety eight million and go move along.
You already said it. No, it takes backsies Like I
can't believe they were allowed to take vacsis. I mean,
I'm glad they got it in the end, and.
Speaker 1 (42:20):
Yeah, in the end, it was like no take backs. Today,
the West Valley City Police evidence room still houses boxes
labeled Powell case, Among them a single compact disc of
family photos, labeled in Susan's handwriting. On the cover, she
doodled hearts around her son's initials. Every anniversary, investigators revisit leads.
(42:45):
They no longer expect to find Susan alive, but they
want to find her period. The search continues in intervals, quiet, methodical,
more about honoring a promise than expecting a miracle, and
to this day, Susan Susan Cox Powell. I hate to
(43:06):
even refer to her like with the last name Powell,
to be honest, but.
Speaker 2 (43:11):
Yeah, but that's like her kids last names. It is.
I don't think she would be offended. No, I don't
mean I don't know her, but she.
Speaker 1 (43:18):
Has never been recovered, so it is a presumed thomicide,
But I think you know everything. Given everything that we
know about the case and everything that's happened in the
aftermath since her disappearance, it feels pretty safe to assume
that Susan likely died that night in December two thousand
(43:39):
and nine. And it's horrifying to think about what her
boys heard, what they saw, Yeah, and then to think
about what happened to them, just not even a handful
of years later, they were five and seven years old.
Speaker 2 (43:54):
I go by what the one little kid said in
the beginning, like mommy was in the trunk, and like, yeah,
you don't put people in the trunk that are usually alive, or.
Speaker 1 (44:04):
Yeah, and you don't leave mommy at the campsite when
everybody else leaves.
Speaker 2 (44:10):
Like people are not in the trunk for any good reason,
you know, Like no, they're either passed away back there
or there someone wants them to be.
Speaker 1 (44:19):
If you are someone you know feels trapped in a
relationship that doesn't feel safe, help us out there. You
can call or text the National Domestic Violence Hotline at
one eight hundred seven nine nine safe, or visit the
hotline dot.
Speaker 2 (44:37):
Org shoe fly.
Speaker 1 (44:44):
So here we are for terror Party part No, where
are we feeling left? I feel like it's kind of
bunching up on the other Yeah, okay, that's so funny.
Speaker 2 (44:56):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (44:57):
Oh, we are getting all types of new cards. Okay,
so this one is really cool. This looks like the
seven of Cups and it shows a dragonfly and there's like,
that's a lily pad down at the bottom. But oh yeah,
so it shows the lily pad and then it shows
the dragonfly reflected in the water. Okay, so we drew
(45:21):
that in the reverse as well, which is really interesting.
Speaker 2 (45:24):
Tell us what kind of dragonfly it is? From the
P ANDW deck.
Speaker 1 (45:28):
This is a Pacific fork tail damsel fly?
Speaker 2 (45:33):
Oh, a damsel in distress. Okay.
Speaker 1 (45:36):
So keywords in our P and W book are dreams, imagination, fantasy, daydreaming, illusions, choices, indecision.
Speaker 2 (45:49):
Oh. Illusion is like kind of a good one for this. Yeah,
like the illusion of being a nice LDS family and
you a.
Speaker 1 (46:00):
Lot of illusions really, But.
Speaker 2 (46:02):
You know, I was thinking to like living on where
did they live on? Sarah? Sarah Circle? Sarah Circle? Like
it sounds so nice and like wholesome in it.
Speaker 1 (46:11):
It does?
Speaker 2 (46:12):
It wasn't it?
Speaker 1 (46:12):
Was an illusion down here. It's dark and quiet. Oh,
the water flows smoothly along its winding currents, and the
sediment and lily leaves collaborate to cast the muddy floor
in shade. But if you look up you might catch
a glimpse of light and color. The image will be
(46:35):
distorted dream like a flash of lapis lazuli, a strobing
diamond flicker time to rapid wing beats, a ripple of
deep black that catches the sun like opal.
Speaker 2 (46:50):
WHOA, that's kind of weird because we were literally just
talking about a tailor with opal light.
Speaker 1 (46:57):
Yeah, there's actually some other like iconography that in both
of the tarots kind of have related to our offline conversations.
Speaker 2 (47:07):
That's kind of very weird.
Speaker 1 (47:09):
I'm not going to get into it.
Speaker 2 (47:11):
Yeah, it was offline, but it was an offline conversation.
Speaker 1 (47:15):
To see it, clearly, you'll have to approach pursue, leave
behind the safe familiarity of the underwater glade, and vault
into the light. The sunlight will stun you into momentary blindness,
and the muffled murmur of the water will give way
to a roar of crashing and burbling. But regaining your bearings.
(47:39):
You can see the damsel fly clearly free from refractions.
Up close, it looks only a little like you expected,
but it's no less spectacular.
Speaker 2 (47:50):
Wow. Why do I feel like she's like in the
water somewhere.
Speaker 1 (47:56):
Yeah, that was kind of my first thought. I mean,
it's so hard because it's like so much desert and
shit around there, right right, Yeah, like maybe they weren't.
Maybe he was trying to like throw them off. He
did spend a lot of time driving around, you know,
the lake, right.
Speaker 2 (48:12):
Salt Lake area. So oh no, I don't know. I mean, god,
I mean, obviously we don't know. But you're totally right.
I forgot that you'd said that about the lake.
Speaker 1 (48:25):
Keywords are possibilities, potential, imagination, fantasy, and we drew this
in the reverse.
Speaker 2 (48:34):
I love that other keyword on the the little Interpretation
book about the illusion. I feel like that adds so much.
It does.
Speaker 1 (48:43):
The reverse seven can mean either you're in a fog
about your future, or conversely, you're finally gaining clarity about
your direction in life. Perhaps dreams you health in the
past no longer interest you, and you're replacing them with
new goals.
Speaker 2 (49:00):
She plan, did you mention? She was planning to leave
him or was she just.
Speaker 1 (49:04):
Writing about I mean, I have to assume that the
thought had potentially entered her mind, but I at least
did not really come across anything concrete that was saying
she had a plan in place to leave, But it
seemed like she was more in a defensive position at
(49:24):
this stage. It was about protecting you know, herself, their
financial assets, you know that were primarily due to what
she had provided, and then you know, obviously protecting their children.
Speaker 2 (49:39):
That protective like crab thing we were talking about in
the first harrow.
Speaker 1 (49:44):
In a reading about money, deception is a possibility someone
else may be unreliable ding ding ding ding ding, or
you may be deceiving yourself, or both. Two things can
be true. Two things can be true. If the reading
is about your job. Your ideas and projects may not
bear fruit. Someone's didn't, Yeah, partly because you lack the
(50:09):
incentive and focus to move them along. Perhaps you feel
lazy or uninspired. You'd rather dream than work. Listen, Hey,
if the shoe fits Cinderella. In a reading about love,
the reverse seven can indicate lack of commitment or indecision.
In a romantic affair, you may want to keep your
options open indefinitely, or you may idealize a relationship all
(50:34):
out of proportion, refusing to see the truth.
Speaker 2 (50:37):
Ooh, that's like the dad who was obsessed the step dad.
Speaker 1 (50:42):
No, it was her father in law.
Speaker 2 (50:44):
That's what I Oh, that's what I meant. Just that
my brain just like can't it's I'm so grossed out
by it.
Speaker 1 (50:50):
It's really gross. Yeah, not really great, that would be worse. No, honestly,
they're all bad. It's all bad. There's no scenario where
someone who's in a father type figure in your life
becomes obsessed with you and it is literally like stalking.
Speaker 2 (51:05):
You and stealing their items and like taking photos of you. Yeah,
that's so gross. Like he was so delusional.
Speaker 1 (51:14):
There's no there's just no way. That's not like the
creepiest thing like it is. It's terrible. I hate it all?
Speaker 2 (51:23):
Right?
Speaker 1 (51:23):
Well was that it?
Speaker 2 (51:25):
Yeah? Wait? Okay, so we got sevens on both tarots, right, Yeah,
you're right. What does that mean though? When we pulled
two sevens? I want to know what that means? You know,
what does it mean? You guys?
Speaker 1 (51:37):
I mean, I guess we could just look at numerism, right,
or is that the right word numerology, numerology.
Speaker 2 (51:44):
Yeah, numerism, numerism, new words.
Speaker 1 (51:47):
Okay, I don't know, I don't know what bearing. I
feel like this maybe has. But in numerology, the number
seven symbolizes intellectualism, spirituality, and intuition. It represents the seeker
of truth and knowledge, a person who is often introspective, analytical,
and a deep thinker. Okay, I I think I'm seeing
(52:10):
it now.
Speaker 2 (52:11):
It's definitely not Josh.
Speaker 1 (52:13):
Yeah, uh huh, I feel like this is this is Susan.
Speaker 2 (52:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (52:19):
Those associated with the number seven are drawn to philosophy
and a deeper understanding of the world, but their introspective
nature can also lead to emotional detachment or loneliness. Says
highly intelligent, logical, and curious, interesting, a very deeply spiritual
(52:39):
nature seeking deeper meaning.
Speaker 2 (52:42):
Well, yeah, if she was part of like this religion,
she's got to be very spiritual. Yeah. Also her being
so intuitive to kind of like write things down and
make like a little paper trail of like if I disappear,
you know, my not be an accident. Like that's very
intuitive of her.
Speaker 1 (53:03):
I was just gonna say, so I looked at this
a little bit deeper and I just think this is
kind of an interesting perspective from numerology. It says analytical
and intellectual sevens are deep thinkers and logical problem solvers
who enjoy research and investigation. Oh, they don't take things
(53:25):
at face value and need facts and personal experience to
form their beliefs. Highly perceptive and insightful. Wise with a
deep understanding of human nature.
Speaker 2 (53:37):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (53:38):
In connection with religion, I just found this just as
I'm like scrolling, just for some numerology in sight. It
says the number seven holds significant meaning across many different
cultures and belief systems. So if we're looking at it
from like a Christian biblical sense, it says it symbolizes
(54:00):
divine perfection and completeness e g. The seven days of creation.
Speaker 2 (54:08):
Mm hmmm that is really Oh boy, ruin it that
I went? I went to ring on you guys?
Speaker 1 (54:17):
My bad.
Speaker 2 (54:18):
I know, I went up on your asses.
Speaker 1 (54:20):
That's triggering for me.
Speaker 2 (54:25):
Have a crea see you next, fuday.
Speaker 1 (54:32):
Oh boy,
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