May 26, 2026 • 56 mins
In this deeply personal episode of PolySoCal, Noah and Cookie share the story of how they transitioned from long term monogamous marriages into a polyamorous BDSM relationship. The conversation explores repression, incompatibility, fear, guilt, cheating, divorce, and the difficult process of rebuilding a life around authenticity rather than obligation. Through honest reflection, the group discusses the emotional and practical realities of leaving relationships that no longer fit, the risks involved in radical change, and the importance of therapy, communication, and support systems when stepping into ethical non monogamy. This episode is not about a perfect transition. It is about what happens when people finally decide to stop ignoring who they are.
Alonzo Banx, Noah, Cookie
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SPEAKER_03 (00:00):
Welcome back to the Polyso Cal podcast.
I am Alonzo Banks, and tonightwe have Noah and Cookie in the
house.
And I'm gonna ask a questionthat um they both just agreed
might be a little bitcontroversial.
SPEAKER_01 (00:13):
Explore some love from screen.
SPEAKER_03 (00:52):
So real real quick, there's only the three of us in
the house tonight.
Um, with say hello so everyoneremembers who you are, and more
importantly, your connection toeach other, which really kind of
amplifies the question I'm gonnaask.
Noah, say hi.
SPEAKER_04 (01:08):
Hey, I'm Noah.
I'm partnered with Cookie on thepodcast tonight.
You also know that I'm partneredwith uh Cupcake, uh, who is
married to another man who hashis own partner, and we have
kind of a mix of partners slashkitchen table situation.
So that's who who I am.
SPEAKER_03 (01:30):
Good to have you tonight.
Cookie, we don't get shownoften.
I did I think sending you thatlist showing you, you know, that
we need you on here more kind ofyou know stirred a little fire
there.
SPEAKER_00 (01:39):
Well, yeah, yeah.
Uh I'm Cookie, uh partner withNoah and Cupcake.
Uh Noah introduced us prettywell.
And yeah, obviously I haven'tbeen on here enough, so I'm
happy to be back.
SPEAKER_03 (01:51):
Good to have you.
Okay, so the fact that we haveyou two tonight, and you know,
Cookie, I've known you for a along time now.
I'm long before the changes inyour lifestyle, kind of really
brought up the question.
Which is when was that momentwhere you realized that you
wanted to transition frommonogamy to poly?
(02:14):
What did that decision take?
How did you face it?
How did you talk to peoplearound you?
And I mean, the millionquestions that people are gonna
have about I'm monogamous and Ithink I want to be poly.
How do I make that step?
So, cookie, I put you on the onthe spot because like I said, I
know you I've known you in yourprevious life.
SPEAKER_00 (02:35):
Oh man, right.
So, yeah, so uh Alonzo met me inmy before life uh with my
ex-husband.
Um, and I was with my ex-husbandfor about 13 years.
And then before that, I had, Iguess, a couple somewhat
(02:56):
serious, but not super seriousuh relationships that were kind
of monogamous in structure aswell.
Um, and you know, I think a bigpart of why I started that way
is it's just very much set up asthe default.
Um, you know, my parents weremonogamous, pretty much everyone
in our family circle and all ofour friends were also
(03:17):
monogamous.
It was just um the structurethat was most familiar.
So the first one I sought after.
Uh, but I would say, you know,even before making that firm
choice, um, you know, every timeI would be in a relationship, it
felt like at some point uh thewhole setup felt limiting.
(03:39):
And I think like early on inthose relationships um that I
had since they were new and Iwas just new to relationships in
general, I kind of just feltlike, oh, well, that's just one
of those passing thoughts youhave about um, you know, of what
could be, and everybody hasthose.
Um but I uh yeah, after beingwith my relationship uh with my
(04:05):
ex-husband for so long, um, andactually kind of having a moment
where I broke up with him and weand we came back together and
tried again, um it kind ofrevalidated that feeling in me
that, you know, whoever I wouldbe with next, um, I would like
to explore something a bit moreexperimental, a bit more open.
(04:25):
Um, and I would like to, youknow, experiment with having
more intimate relationships umjust in my life, uh, because I
like to talk deeply with people.
I like to get to know people.
Um, and a big part of extendingthat can be, you know, in in
love, um, in sexuality andfriendship.
(04:46):
And I feel like um, you know,it's it's one of those things
when you're in in a monogamousrelationship for a long time and
it wasn't necessarily anagreement up front when when you
got into that relationship, butit was just a condition.
Um I found myself kind of justcoming back to that thought a
(05:09):
lot.
And eventually it kind of uh,and this will I guess will be
the controversial part, um, thethe pressures of that kind of
led me astray um in my in myexisting monogamous
relationship.
And I uh, you know, I was notfaithful and I was also feeling
like I was not in a position tocommunicate those feelings to my
(05:32):
partner and have them receivedsafely.
Um I felt like uh things werealready kind of falling apart
and I felt like I was alreadyoutgrowing um the relationship I
was in.
I've I started to kind ofacknowledge all the other ways
that I felt held back from thethings that I wanted to go after
(05:55):
in life because I was with aperson who really just had
different goals than me.
And um yeah, I think a lot ofthose realizations and thoughts
kind of led me to to take theactions of ending that and then
beginning a uh ethicallynon-monogamous relationship with
Noah, who happened to around thesame time be kind of going
(06:17):
through that same kind ofprocess, it seems.
I mean, I won't entirely speakfor him.
And you know, we had a lot ofour own private conversations
about that, but I also feel likeum it it aligned us both on that
journey to to take that togetherin in kind of a beautiful way.
And I, as messy as it seemed,maybe from the outside to some
(06:39):
people, I it it does feel moreright.
Um, I feel more aligned withwhat I'm interested in doing and
more able to speak to my partnernow about um experimental and
new things that I want to try.
And I don't feel those pressuresum anymore about the the
conditions of a of a culturallyreinforced relationship anymore.
(07:00):
And that part is very freeingfor me.
Um so yeah, it's it there is noone way about it.
It it is messy um to do thatkind of conversion, and and you
have to know that you're doingit for you, and there's gonna be
people around you who areunhappy about it, and there
might be people you might nevertalk to again by by taking
(07:20):
action on those things.
Um but you you just have todecide that you're gonna value
your experience more than thanthat, more than their opinions.
And uh it takes guts, it takes alot of guts to do that.
It and and yeah, for for anyoneconsidering that journey, like I
understand.
(07:41):
Uh and I wish I could reallyoffer like some really sound
advice, but every situation iskind of its own unique monster
to tackle.
SPEAKER_03 (07:50):
But you jumped deep.
I mean, you didn't just go frommonogamous to poly.
You went from monogamous to aand fairly vanilla to a BDSM
relation that's poly.
So like you took both plunges atthe same time.
SPEAKER_00 (08:07):
Did I yeah, right.
And I think I think a big partof that was just you know how
repressed I really was for solong, like how many interests I
had that were left unexplored,and then to finally find someone
who kind of aligned with a lotof those interests, like I was
more than prepared to jump inbecause I, you know, just had
all that time, all that time tobuild it up.
SPEAKER_03 (08:27):
And were you looking for both?
Did the did the poly come withthe BDSM or BDSM with poly, or
you were actively looking forboth of those at once?
SPEAKER_00 (08:37):
You know, I would say more so I was interested in
BDSM first, because I feel likepoly was is honestly so new for
me in comparison.
Like I feel like I knew aboutBDSM a little bit more um before
that, maybe for like 10 years orso before that, and was more
familiar and interested in that.
(08:57):
But again, I had a partner whowas just very not interested in
in exploring any of that.
Like that was just a veryuncomfortable thing to even ask
him to explore.
So um, and the thought of meexploring that with other
people, I could tell, made himuncomfortable too.
So that was just uh yeah, one ofthose things that I would think
(09:18):
about, you know, in the fantasyrealm a lot and it never quite
died.
And um as uh a bit of a thrillseeker, I feel like I I placed
some importance on that havingthat experience somehow.
Um and then, you know, byextension, when you get into
that type of thing, I feel likethere is just a very large
(09:40):
network of poly people.
Um, and also crossing over intothat.
I was interested in a lot of artfestivals and being around a lot
of artists and people who arejust generally a bit more
eclectic and open, like there'sjust this huge overlap of the
poly community.
And it just uh started tonaturally filter into the
(10:01):
spectrum of options availablefor what a relationship could
look like.
Um, and yeah, as someone who waskind of repressed in a
relationship, I wasn't reallyhappy with.
I was really interested in kindof jumping into a few different
directions.
Um I didn't expect to findsomeone like Cupcake so soon
after meeting Doah to exploresomething like Polly.
(10:22):
But when we got together, Ithink we agreed that we were
interested in in, you know,ethically finding ways to keep
it kind of open so we could wecould meet and and play with
other people.
Um and she just happenedeverything just happened to
align just so quickly and sofast, um that that I was able to
(10:43):
do that.
Um and I feel like it was a lotof his luck.
SPEAKER_03 (10:47):
I don't know.
So I want to go in twodirections with that.
Um, first, just to be clear,when you and Noah got together,
there was not any other partnersin the relationship at the time.
You both got together with theunderstanding that you wanted to
be poly.
Correct?
Correct.
How far before you made thedecision to leave your other
(11:10):
relationship did you reallystart thinking I'm Polly?
Or with you, did it start withI'm BDSM and that left.
How basically how long did youlive on the decision before you
pulled the trigger?
SPEAKER_00 (11:25):
I feel like I really started to consider it for like
a year to six months before itactually happened.
And it was mostly the BDSMportion um with a little bit of
poly mixed into that because itwas just another thing on the on
the bucket list that felt likeit would never happen in my
existing relationship.
Um but yeah, that it that feelslike about that amount of time.
(11:48):
And it's not that like I wasn'thaving moments of considering it
before that, but this was likethe amount of time where I it
really started to stick, like,no, I think this is something I
really want to pursue.
Like, like really started totake it seriously.
I would say six months to ayear.
SPEAKER_03 (12:04):
And if you don't mind me digging a little bit,
what percentage of your choiceto leave your previous
relationship?
13 years is a good time to beinvested, was the poly BDSM
part.
Was it the relationship was onthe rocks and that was a
contributing factor, or was thisa major part of your decision?
SPEAKER_00 (12:29):
I'd say a little bit of a half and half.
Like I feel like when, and Idon't want to speak for all
relationships with this, butwhen you break up with someone
and then you get back togetherwith them, I think there is
often an expectation that theperson is different now.
Um, and oftentimes early on, itreally does feel like that
person is different now and youare different now.
(12:52):
And it is fascinating to see howeven if you've changed a lot,
there are just a lot of othercore things that do not, or they
present themselves in new waysand annoy you just the same
ways.
Um, and and it kind of for mevalidated that this was kind of
an incompatible relationship.
(13:13):
Um, it validated to me that Iwas with someone who was not
helping me be my best um in alot of aspects of my life.
And um and those feelingsaccounted for maybe like half of
the reason I wanted to leave.
And then the other half was thedeprivation and repression
feelings, which I just feellike, especially over 13 years,
(13:35):
if you repeatedly kind of havethose thoughts, it builds up.
And as you get older, thepressure to, you know, do that
with the time you have left, thethe urgency to do something
about that increases.
And, you know, projecting mylife forward, imagining, you
know, okay, if I stay with thisperson, I know that all of these
(13:56):
thoughts are only gonna getworse.
Like I don't think that there'sanother way to alleviate my
curiosity about them unless Itry to engage with them.
And if I'm not with a person whoI can safely do that with, then
it's clear that that is a bigincompatibility um with my life
interests.
And uh and while it is maybe alittle selfish, um, I do think
(14:19):
it's still the right thing todo.
And um, I'm still glad I did it.
But it did it took a lot ofbravery and motivation and time
and uh kind of like deciding toquit cigarettes or something,
just like doing it, cold turkeydoing it, and just uh not trying
to dance around and try to makeeverybody happy when you leave.
(14:42):
Um it's just uh it's not gonnabe clean, you know.
It's just not you you can't havebeautiful expectations of uh you
know ending a thing perfectly.
SPEAKER_03 (14:56):
Um since you made the jump.
SPEAKER_00 (15:04):
A little over three years.
Three years, about three alittle over three years, yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (15:08):
Do you remember back to what some of your biggest um
fears and anguishes were thatnow realizing those weren't
really justified, I was afraidof X and that didn't happen.
Like with my previousrelationship.
SPEAKER_00 (15:25):
But with the transition in general.
Oh, sure, sure.
Um you know, I think I wasactually more afraid of staying
in a situation I didn't want tobe in than taking a chance.
Um, I don't think taking thischance was something that made
me fearful.
(15:45):
Um yeah, I think it was scarierto me to have the thought of no,
like I could be trapped here ina situation I don't want to be
in forever and and and try toplay it off like I chose this
and am happy in it, you know,like that that sounds like an
absolute living nightmare.
And I'm pretty certain it wouldhave been.
(16:05):
Um so yeah, I think my mybiggest fear just would have
been staying in that discomfort,staying in a place where I just
knew it wasn't right for me.
SPEAKER_03 (16:13):
Were there any pain points that you didn't see
coming?
Where after you made thetransition, all of a sudden you
went, ouch! I didn't expectthat.
SPEAKER_00 (16:24):
Um I mean, I will say, like, I don't feel like I'm
necessarily on bad terms withanybody after the fact, but I
definitely feel like I kind oflost some friends um and
connections, and that thatalways hurts a little bit.
Um, and as much as my ex-husbandis, I feel like is is com
(16:47):
incompatible with me on thatrelationship level, like we had
other compatibilities that I domiss.
Um, and those, you know, it doeshurt.
It does hurt to not have thatanymore.
Um But uh I honestly can't thinkof a single thing I regret.
(17:08):
Uh even how long it took, Ireally can't be that mad at
myself for it.
It like, yeah, it would havebeen nice to have addressed this
sooner or realized it sooner.
Um but better late than neverdefinitely rings true for me for
that.
So uh yeah, I I reallyapproached this whole thing as a
(17:29):
very just uh forgiving of myselfkind of thing.
Um I'm a fallible human beingjust like anybody else.
And choosing a relationshipthat's not right for me is a
completely valid mistake that Ithink a lot of people do make.
And um and that's okay, youknow, like I don't need to prove
to the world that I made theright choice by just by staying
(17:50):
in it, you know, just to belike, ha, you know, I chose
right.
I told you so.
I'm I'm perfect, I knoweverything, you know, because
that's just a big act.
I'll still have to feel theweight of of knowing that I
didn't.
SPEAKER_03 (18:05):
So last question, then I'll get on get on Noah.
We haven't been asking you muchso far.
How long was the transition fromwhen you you know you decided
this is going to happen to ithappened?
Is it something that you draggedout for weeks or months or days?
SPEAKER_00 (18:27):
Yeah, I feel like I I knew it would happen soon-ish
for that six months to a year,and then like the time the plan
to exit was probably two orthree months, maybe a little bit
less.
But yeah, I'd say three months,like the the intention was set,
like no, I'm going to leave soonfor sure.
(18:48):
Very soon.
And then uh yeah, and then kindof comes just a lot of uh
planning, pre-planning beforethat, pre-grieving, which is a
little unfair for your existingpartner, but still something
that needs to be done, I think.
Um and uh uh Yeah, as soon aslike the new year started, that
(19:11):
felt like a big refresh point.
We're like, okay, like this is agood time to move forward, and
then yeah, a couple months laterit happened.
Um and yeah, I'd say ithappened, happened like within a
week.
Like it was a very aggressive uhyou know, moment.
Like I moved out within a weekjust suddenly and was done, and
(19:34):
that and that was it.
Didn't look back.
SPEAKER_03 (19:37):
Okay, and I'll come back to that, but Noah.
Talk about your relationshipprior, because you were in a
also a long-term monogamousrelationship, right?
SPEAKER_04 (19:49):
I was, yeah.
And I have a lot to say, so I'mgonna try to do my best to
organize my thoughts in a waythat uh makes sense and doesn't
take up hours of time.
But uh to try to keep a longstory short, I was married uh
for over 17 years.
Um and we had gotten married uhvery young, um, at least by
(20:13):
today's standards.
We were in our very early 20s.
Um my ex-wife wasn't even oldenough to drink when we got
married, um and we really didn'tknow shit about shit.
We had no idea how the worldworked, and I think her and I
both, uh, but me especially, um,was playing the world by
(20:35):
numbers, right?
We were painting by numbers.
It was I graduated high school,I got a full-time big boy job.
I moved out to well, beforethat, I moved out to California.
Um I originally grew up inMinnesota, and um I I I then
(20:56):
said, okay, well, what's next?
So I I met a girl shortly afterI moved to California.
Uh we paid it off.
Um I then decided, okay, well,I've got a big boy job, I've
moved states, I'm an adult now.
I guess I'll ask her to marryme.
Because that's the next step,right?
That's what you do when you'rean adult.
(21:17):
And then I decided the nextthing to do then is buy a house
and have a kid.
So I did those things.
And so now I'm in my you know,mid to late twenties at this
point.
And I I realize that I'm I'm nothappy.
(21:38):
Um both in my marriage, which Icould talk all day about, but I
won't.
But um it wasn't good reallyfrom the start.
Um, but I stuck it out uhbecause of my at the time
Christian values, um, which toldme that you stay no matter what,
you are a loyal husband, andthis is what you do for God.
(22:00):
And country and whatever else.
Right.
And I that was the manly thingto do was to basically just
suffer in it.
That's the choice you made, andit's forever.
So that's what you do.
Um and I honestly felt lost.
I I I when I had those things, Ihad the kid and the house and
(22:22):
the wife.
Um not such a bad life when youlook at it from the outside, but
I felt very empty in so manyways.
And ultimately, I just said,well, I guess my next goal is to
die.
So I'm not trying to say that inlike a suicidal way, but that
(22:43):
was just what I was waiting for.
I was just marking time untilthat happened, I guess.
Um, I was in a groundhog daylife where I came home from
work.
And in my marriage, I reallywasn't allowed to explore my
desires or wants, uh, evenhobbies.
Um, so I'd watch reality shows Ididn't care about um just to
(23:04):
make her happy.
And then I'd go to bed, usuallyangry.
And that was kind of my life.
It's just it was how I felt.
And um I remember wanting somuch more, but it always felt
wrong or gross or that I'd be, Ishould be ashamed of it, even
(23:29):
though it's what I desired.
And it was, you know, I I wouldmeet other people in my life uh
who were interesting to me,people who, you know, I wanted
uh a stronger relationship with,but I wasn't allowed to because
I was in a monogamousrelationship.
(23:50):
And for most of my life, I'll behonest, I've I've always thought
um people took sex way tooseriously.
In the sense that uh not that itshouldn't be taken seriously to
a point, but um sex is not justan expression of love, it's an
expression of enjoyment and fun.
(24:12):
Um and I think to a point withinsome level of responsibility, uh
we shouldn't pretend that it'ssome huge level, some crazy
barrier of uh uh you know whatI'm trying to say.
That it's a like a major deal tohave sex, I guess.
(24:36):
Anyway, so I'm going throughthis relationship for about 17
years, um, and I meet Cookie.
And when I meet Cookie, um thiswas another person who I had a
connection with.
This was another person I feltuh a strong connection with
(24:58):
almost immediately.
And it wasn't the first time Ihad felt this kind of
connection.
Like I said, I've felt thisbefore uh many times.
Um but I think this was just themoment that we both had needed
when we met each other.
It was the right timing when weare both felt maybe a little
desperate in our relationships,um a little lost and feeling
(25:28):
maybe unloved in ourrelationships.
Um and we talked a lot, wetalked a lot, and at first it
was relatively innocent, um andthen it became not, to be
honest, and people can makewhatever opinions they want on
(25:52):
that, but um we really learned alot about each other, and we had
a lot of commonalities in how wewere living our life, a lot of
parallels, um, and our feelingsaround sex and non-monogamy and
BDSM um were very much aligned.
(26:15):
Um, she had, you know, sharedsome desires and fantasies with
me.
And I'll be honest, a lot ofthat was not new per se in the
idea of, but it was new in thesense that that can happen.
That's a real thing that peopledo.
I had uh basically been livingmy life with the idea that that
was only something that happenedin movies or TV, or you know,
(26:37):
and always ended in disaster,right?
You would invite someone elseinto your bedroom, or you know,
you would have a relationshipoutside your home, even if it
was consensual, and it would umalways end up in disaster.
That's basically how it'sportrayed in Hollywood or in in
(26:58):
culture.
And so I had I had really beenof the belief that that was not
a real thing that had reallyhappened on a regular basis,
that it was an extremely rarething and certainly nothing that
ever really worked out.
Um but Cookie had kind of openedthat world up to me because she
was more aware of it than I was.
(27:19):
And that allowed me to do alittle bit of research and see
some things and become part ofyou know, some internet
communities, et cetera, thatreally opened my eyes to a lot
of uh a lot of things.
And um that was a hugeeye-opening moment for me.
(27:44):
When when I realized that theway that I was living my life,
which again was a paint bynumbers, it was what I was told
to do.
It was the this is what you dowhen you become an adult.
You get a job, you have kids,you buy a house, get married.
(28:05):
That's the plan.
Um and even if it didn't feelright, that was what you were
supposed to do.
And then I learned that youdon't have to do that.
And that was such uh a relief inso many ways.
I suddenly felt like I hadoptions, and then on top of
(28:26):
that, I had met someone who feltperfect to explore those options
with.
SPEAKER_03 (28:33):
So you jumped from vanilla monogamy to BDSM
polyamory.
SPEAKER_04 (28:42):
Yeah, I did.
I did.
And I had had all of thosedesires over the years, but I
had really pushed them down orignored them or pretended they
didn't exist or only exploredthem in porn or what have you,
right?
Um, it wasn't something that Ihad taken seriously.
And uh yeah, when uh Cookie hadexpressed those desires to
(29:07):
suddenly have someone to explorethat with was um a whole new
world just opened up to me.
Um and we didn't act on thosefor quite some time.
It was a lot of talk, mostlygetting to know each other and
exploring our own desires.
Um, I'd say for many, many, manymonths of just talking, just
(29:32):
chatting online, basically iswhat it was.
Um we got to know each other sowell in that time.
Um and then yeah, I I I weeventually got to a point where
we couldn't take it anymore, andwe we began cheating on our
(29:53):
partners, to keep it simple.
Um and that was basically when Ihad decided that I was done with
my marriage.
And I had told Cookie at thetime, whether or not you're
going to leave your husband, I'mgoing to be leaving my wife.
(30:14):
And I had basically set a timeof the new year for my own
personal reasons, Christmas witha child, yada yada yada, right?
Um it didn't quite work out thatway.
Um, but that was my plan.
And I had told Cookie, I waslike, listen, I'm I'm I'm
leaving my wife.
(30:34):
You don't have to make anychoices that you don't want to
make.
Um, but this is a choice I'mgonna make regardless of your
choice.
Um and you're welcome to comewith me.
But this is where it's going.
And I did make that choicebefore she had made hers.
I moved out and I, you know,told her, I'll make you a key.
(30:55):
Here's my new place.
You're welcome to move in.
Um and she made her choice then.
And that was that's basicallythe the gist.
That's the gist.
SPEAKER_03 (31:09):
Well it sounds like you weren't actively out looking
for the change.
The change found you.
SPEAKER_04 (31:15):
The change found me, absolutely.
And I've I've I've in these lastfew years not been happier in my
life ever.
This is the happiest I've everbeen.
Um Cookie is the best among us.
I say that for all humanity,she's the best among us.
(31:36):
Um and and having her as mypartner and um having her as my
nesting partner um has been thebest experience of my life,
hands down.
And I do not regret for a seconduh the choices that I made.
(31:56):
Um I would do it all again.
SPEAKER_03 (32:02):
You know, one of the things that you see over and
over with marriages, and it wastrue with mine too, when we get
married very young, we don'tknow ourselves yet.
And as as we get older and westart discovering who we are, we
can realize that we madecommitments to things that
weren't right for us, and it'sit's always painful.
(32:23):
But the step from one monogamousrelationship to another is
confusing enough.
The step from a monogamousrelationship into a poly
relationship, that's wherethings get complicated.
No, when you were thinking aboutstepping out, and then ask you
the same question I askedCookie, and I I do this for the
the audience out there.
(32:45):
What fears did you have that youthen found later were unfounded?
Things that you were afraid youwould face that you didn't, and
inversely, what things shouldyou have been afraid of that you
didn't know you should have beenbecause they came back and bit
you in the butt.
SPEAKER_04 (33:07):
Yeah, I think uh one is and Cookie might laugh at me
when I say this, but thefinancial cost.
I remember telling her, youknow, we were married for a long
time in the state of California.
You married over 10 years, youowe alimony for the rest of your
life.
And my ex-wife, uh, while shedid work, did not make as much
(33:29):
money as I did.
And so I am thereforeresponsible for the rest of my
life to pay for her to have anequal um lifestyle to what she
had while we were married.
Um and that was very scary forme because uh I remember telling
her, I'm gonna have just a realsad dad apartment, is what I
(33:51):
called it, right?
It's probably gonna be a studioor a one bedroom.
I'll be sleeping on the couch somy kid can have the other
bedroom when he's with me,assuming I get any custody.
That was the other fear, right?
That I might not have anycustody of my child.
Um and uh yeah, I was afraidthat I would be absolutely
financially ruined, potentiallyfor the rest of my life.
(34:14):
And while it was nowhere closeto free, and it has cost me a
lot of money, it wasn't thatbad.
And there is uh a light at theend of the tunnel.
I see, you know, where I canrecover.
Um, you know, after three years,I'm pretty much outside of the
(34:35):
worst of it.
And um I imagine in a few moreyears I'll be uh back to where I
was prior to all of this.
So five or six years, I guess,after a 17-year marriage doesn't
really feel um like that big ofa sacrifice in the end of
(34:55):
things.
Um, but again, not free.
It definitely cost me about$1,000, right, to to handle all
of this, but it was uhabsolutely worth it.
I'd pay it twice over to do thisagain.
So uh that was the the biggestfear.
(35:16):
The other one would be again,there's a child involved.
I do have a teenage son um whoat the time was uh preteen, um
which is a very, you know, uhdelicate age for a child and to
go through a divorce, which he'snot the first one.
(35:37):
I in fact had my parents divorceeach other twice while I was
growing up, once when I was muchyounger and once when I was
about his age.
Um I had some comfort in that,knowing, having been through it
myself, knowing that he'd befine ultimately.
And the way that he would befine was by doing my best to
(35:59):
cooperate with my ex-wife ondealing with the child
situation.
Um, and the the other fear, andsome of it came true and some of
it didn't, is your relationshipswith other people, friendships,
uh, family, et cetera.
Um, and I did lose one or twofriends, um, one of which was
(36:21):
actually very unexpected.
Uh, my best friend, who uhdidn't really seem to have
really much relationship with myex-wife at all, and who
seemingly had taken, not takenmy side, but had been behind me,
happy for my transition, happythat I'm happy, uh suddenly just
(36:44):
changed and kind of ghosted me.
Um and while he never saidthat's what it was about, I feel
like that's what it was about,was his opinion of me changed.
So there is a real risk oflosing relationships, and that
is an unfortunate part, butagain, um I do it again, even
(37:04):
knowing that to be true.
Um, I still have friends, I'vemade new friends since.
My um my group has grown,Alonzo.
You're part of that group,right?
Um and so life continues to goon.
And so I think that's somethingthat we need to remember is uh
(37:27):
you're ending something major,especially if you've been doing
it for so very long.
Um but it's not the end ofeverything.
You're creating something new,it's a new beginning.
And if you're doing things rightin Polly, it's a new beginning
(37:47):
where you're meeting new peopleand starting new relationships,
sometimes romantic, sometimesjust friendships, um, but you're
being introduced to a newcommunity and many new people.
Um which has its own beauty.
SPEAKER_03 (38:03):
We've all watched um friends of ours go through
divorces, monogamous marriagesbreaking up.
How would you compare yourselfto that for either one of you?
I mean, do you have a comparisonwith your going from monogamy to
poly and ending a monogamousrelationship to what most people
(38:24):
go through just monogamy tomonogamy?
Do you have any view on how thatlooks?
SPEAKER_04 (38:30):
Uh me personally, uh I I do in the sense that I it
was critical to start a newrelationship as poly with
someone who was open to poly.
Neither one of us uh tried todrag our previous partners,
(38:54):
previous marriages into polyrelationships.
Neither one of us made thatultimatum.
Um, because I think neither oneof us feel that's fair, right?
Monogamy isn't wrong.
I don't think monogamy is wrong.
It's a choice, just like beingpoly is a choice, right?
SPEAKER_03 (39:14):
Like putting pineapple on a pizza.
SPEAKER_04 (39:16):
It's a choice.
Right.
Right, right.
Um and there are people who arepoly who choose to be monogamous
after time.
And there are, you know, inrarer instances, people who are
monogamous who decide to be polyover time.
Um, however, both partners mustbe in it and ready to do it.
(39:37):
You cannot drag a partner intoit.
And I think that is a criticalrealization and something that
uh with Cookie and I, we bothknew that being poly um would at
the very least be uh aconsideration for our new
(39:57):
relationship, if not aguaranteed uh part of it.
Um and along with BDSM.
That was also part of it.
Um and and I and I think that'scritical.
You must have that understandingfrom the get-go.
Um converting someone into thislifestyle, I think, is the wrong
(40:21):
way to go.
It's only gonna end in heartacheand pain for both of you, but
especially the person thatyou're trying to drag through
into your desires.
SPEAKER_00 (40:34):
Yeah, I feel like I I agree.
I agree with Noah.
And then I would also add, youknow, it's not just about
finding that partner who iscompatible with you in terms of
um, you know, uh sexual andrelationship goals and
(40:55):
interests, but also finding apartner that you are able to be
vulnerable with and that youknow that you can clearly
communicate with and you'reconfident that you um this
person understands you.
Um because especially when youenter the the poly realm of
things, the complexity that'sadded and the things that you
(41:17):
need to talk about and theempathy required is gonna
require radical honesty fromboth of you to really do that
right um and to really honoryour feelings on things and to
allow the possibility of someoneto change their mind about
anything at any time and and beable and willing to express that
(41:40):
um to the other person.
Uh and I feel like when you havethose initial incompatibilities,
you kind of build up um a senseof self that's false, you build
up a lot of secrecy, you buildup a lot of shame and starting a
relationship with someone wherethat is most certainly not on
the table anymore.
(42:02):
Um it's kind of like an entirelynew context.
You get to be yourself, it turnsinto a journey of exploration
together, of honest explorationtogether, and you get to um, you
know, talk about what happenedtogether without worrying that
that someone's gonna be upsetabout it because you tried to
sell them on monogamy or polyahead of time or because, you
(42:26):
know, um you just wanted to toplay around with something
different um after you've beenin a specific kind of dynamic
for so long.
It's it's risky to do that.
And and as Noah said, it's it'sunfair when you're with a
partner who didn't come to thatsame place as you and maybe
instead just isn't a apeople-pleasing point of view
(42:47):
where they're like, well, Iguess I'll try it because you're
interested in it.
That's a that's a dangerousplace to be.
Um it's gonna cause a lot offriction, like really in those
moments that partner should beexpressing to you that they're
uncomfortable with that and thatincompatibility should be
recognized and talked about.
And if it cannot be, you know,rectified uh in a cooperative
(43:07):
manner, then um, you know, youhave to both decide if that is
important enough to you thatthat that is a genuine
incompatibility of therelationship and maybe it is
better um to leave in it.
And it's it's tricky.
It's tricky, but uh yeah, I verymuch agree with Noah.
Like this lifestyle is not it'snot to be sold to a partner.
(43:30):
It it you should find a partnerwho's already interested in it,
um, who's already on that samepage and uh yeah, with nothing
to peddle.
Just just you know.
SPEAKER_03 (43:42):
But let me ask you both, let me ask you both a
final question.
I'm gonna have you answer this adifferent way.
I'm gonna ask you both the samequestion.
Okay.
A very, very dear friend comesup to you and says, I'm
miserable in my marriage.
I'm miserable.
In the monogamous relationship,I'm in.
(44:04):
I don't hate my spouse.
I love them.
But it doesn't work for meanymore.
And I really want to move into apoly lifestyle.
We do.
Noah?
What do I do?
SPEAKER_04 (44:22):
Well, uh, so I think you need to address this with
two stages.
One is you're miserable in yourmarriage.
Is it because you want to bepoly?
Or is it because you'remiserable in your marriage for a
bunch of other reasons?
Um, why do you want to be poly?
Now, if we forget about the polyjust for a second, if it's just
(44:46):
a bunch of marriage problems,maybe you should try to work on
that.
I tried.
Didn't work out.
I do think everybody should tryto make their marriage work if
it's something that they desireto do.
But if you are truly unhappy, umlife is finite.
You're only here once, it onlylasts for a little bit of time.
(45:08):
Um and while we like to pretendthat marriage is some sort of,
you know, infinite contract thatnever ends, um, it's just not
true.
So if you are truly unhappy andtruly ready to move on, then it
is only fair for you to makethat known to your marriage
(45:32):
partner, your spouse, um, andend things.
And if you would like to be uhpoly, then you should enter into
the poly community.
Poly SoCal is a great place tostart.
Um and you know, there's plentyof internet resources out there.
Just start googling around,you'll find all sorts of
(45:54):
information.
Um, and you can try to enter thepoly community.
There are dating apps out therespecifically for for poly.
Um and that's what I wouldrecommend to do after you've
ended your marriage.
Obviously, that's not the waythat I necessarily went about
things.
I'm not saying what I did wasperfect.
(46:14):
However, um, if I'm going togive someone advice, that's the
cleanest way.
SPEAKER_03 (46:20):
Well, frequently in life, it's don't do it the way I
did it because it wasn't quitethe best.
Yeah.
Cookie, what about you?
This friend comes up to youthey're looking for your words
of wisdom.
What do you tell them?
SPEAKER_00 (46:36):
Um, yeah, you know, and it's uh it's funny because
after having done this, I havepreviously had um a very close
friend kind of give me a callafter she had experienced, you
know, meeting someone at a workouting.
And she, you know, started toexperience some of those
(46:56):
thoughts, some of those what-ifthoughts, right?
You sometimes all it takes isjust meeting a person and it
will completely just interruptyour whole uh internal world and
you'll you'll really start toentertain things um that either
you repressed or just didn'teven know about.
Um and it can really send youinto a uh a mental spiral.
(47:18):
And I think there's there's alot to process with those
feelings of I'm not, I don'tthink I'm in the right place.
Um and I I agree with Noah, likeseeking some support from a
therapist, both in, you know,either trying to make your
marriage work if you if you dofeel like there's a chance and
you you just feel like there'ssome struggles that feel
workable, um, maybe it's worthit.
(47:40):
Uh I know Alonzo told me, youknow, don't throw the baby out
with the bathwater, you know,like um you had given me some
advice.
Um, but again, like givingadvice is the best that I could
offer.
I I am not there to give anyonean instructional of how to do
(48:00):
it, what to do it, the bestapproach for them.
Um, in addition to going totherapy for the relationship, I
think going to therapy for theself is also just as important.
Really exploring, like, yeah,like is this about um the fact
that you just want Polly?
Um, or or is there more to it?
Like, what what are yourepressing?
And really getting to the bottomof of um your struggles that led
(48:24):
to the the breakdown that you'recurrently experiencing in the
relationship is is important foryou to know um and take with you
either when you go on to repairyour existing relationship or
when you go on to have otherrelationships, because um it's
not like all of your lifestruggles just go away when you
enter a new relationship format.
(48:46):
So it's um I think it'simportant uh, as anyone will
tell you, if you end anyrelationship, hey, you should
take a break, you should takesome time.
Um, it it is the responsiblething to do to just kind of
recenter yourself, really get agood idea of what are your
goals, what have you beenmissing, what's been bothering
you?
Um, you know, uh who are the thepeople in your life who maybe
(49:10):
brought you to question this ifthere's any, or um, you know,
who are the people around youwho are maybe making you feel
really guilty about leaving thisrelationship and you know, ask
yourself, like, are there otherpeople complicating this for me?
Like, am I really making thedecision based on what I want?
I think those are all reallyimportant questions to ask.
(49:32):
Um, I think this is a really biginternal experience and internal
exploration that you go through,especially switching from a full
relationship format of monogamyto polyamory.
Um and I think you really must,you must know yourself well to
do this smoothly andsuccessfully to give yourself
the best chance of this workingout.
(49:54):
Um and then yeah, luckily we welive in a world now where there
seems to be a lot of resourcesto kind of help you connect to
communities and other people whohave done this.
Um and I I love that there aretherapists who specialize in in
poly things or justnon-traditional relationships
that you can seek out and reallyget like a a specific
(50:17):
perspective from someone who'sreally seen a lot of this.
And I think um there's a lot ofways you can build your
confidence around that decision,even if you know nobody in your
life who's done this.
Um honestly, like I was kind ofin that place.
Like it's not like I knewanybody who was poly who was
close to me or ever made thatchoice.
Like I was really the only one.
(50:38):
Um and in making this choice,like it's not really like I
announced it to the world, likea big coming out experience
either.
I think there's still a lot ofpeople in my life who probably
don't even know that I that Idid this.
Um, and I'm also okay with thattoo.
Um, because again, I'm not inthis for the approval of
everyone else.
I'm I'm in this for my ownapproval and you know, my
(51:00):
happiness and where I want to gowith this.
Um, and if it pleases otherpeople around me, that's great,
but that can't be uh the greatdeciding factor when it's when
it's about my life, you know.
SPEAKER_03 (51:13):
Very well said.
And we have a number of thoseexperts on our show.
So listen to some of ours andtalk to some of the some of the
people that we talk to.
We got some good ones coming up.
Guys, when I, you know, thoughtabout having you two on tonight,
this was obviously the topicthat was right.
I thank you guys for for goingdeep and as always being um very
candid about your past and yourexperiences.
(51:36):
Yeah, you're awesome.
Any last thoughts before we callthis one a rap for tonight?
Noah, Cookie, you're awesome.
Anything we had we need to saythat we didn't.
SPEAKER_04 (51:48):
The only thing I would say is um you know, Cookie
had mentioned therapy.
Um, couples therapy, if you arein a marriage that you are
trying to fix, I think is agreat place to start.
Um, but I don't think I wouldhave made the choices that I
made.
And again, these were choicesthat I feel in my life were
(52:08):
extremely positive.
As hard as they were to make, ashard as they were to rip the
band-aid off.
Personal one-on-one therapy withmy own therapist um was critical
in making this choice.
They were on my side, theyhelped me process a lot of my
feelings.
Um, and that was huge for me.
(52:30):
And I think we now live in aworld where therapy is much more
accessible and understood andaccepted.
And I think uh everyone who isstruggling even a little bit,
maybe if you even if you're not,should consider therapy at least
for a little while to helpprocess some things.
And especially if you're goingsomething like this, um it can
(52:51):
be exactly what you need to makethe leap that you're too afraid
to make.
SPEAKER_03 (52:58):
Excellent advice.
Okay, any last words?
SPEAKER_00 (53:02):
Yeah, you know, at the end of the day, it it really
comes down to you and what youwant and respect for your time
and your goals and your life.
And um, you know, in addition toall of those therapy resources
out there, in the moments thatyou're actually undergoing a big
process, like leaving someone,it's really nice to just have
(53:23):
some good friends around, um,really lean on your support
system.
Um people that you trust, Ithink will will help you not
feel so alone.
Um it's really hard to to againbuild up that that confidence
and that bravery to take thatstep.
(53:44):
Um, it's really easy to haveideas and thoughts about leaving
someone or leaving a job even ormoving to a new place.
Um it's a it's a big change andit is scary and it is tempting
to try to convince yourself,tell yourself stories about why
you should keep doing what youdon't like doing just because
(54:05):
it's not that bad, or justbecause, oh, well, maybe things
will change, or um, you know,maybe your mom really likes this
person or there's some familiarpressure.
There's a kid and you don't wantto disappoint them like you.
Um it's it's really important toyeah, be in touch with yourself,
(54:25):
be in touch with your friends,don't isolate yourself.
Um don't uh yeah, and don't betoo rash, you know.
Just really um it's important toto think it out.
Anything can happen really fast,um, but you uh you don't want to
regret something big that youdecide to do.
(54:46):
So it's set set yourself up forsuccess and and and do it, you
know.
SPEAKER_03 (54:52):
I think on that note, we will end tonight's
call.
Noah cookie.
It's been awesome having you onyet again.
Cookie, we hope we get you backa lot.
You gotta give them stats up,get up into some of the some of
the high views.
I can't be the bottom bottom,you know.
Hi, Melonzo Banks.
This has been the Polly So CowPodcast.
(55:14):
Good night, everybody.
(55:50):
So come, probably so come.
Come on, this will probably socome, come and come this room is
probably right.
Twenty twenty-five, three.
Welcome back to the Polyso Cal podcast.
I am Alonzo Banks, and tonightwe have Noah and Cookie in the
house.
And I'm gonna ask a questionthat um they both just agreed
might be a little bitcontroversial.
SPEAKER_01 (00:13):
Explore some love from screen.
SPEAKER_03 (00:52):
So real real quick, there's only the three of us in
the house tonight.
Um, with say hello so everyoneremembers who you are, and more
importantly, your connection toeach other, which really kind of
amplifies the question I'm gonnaask.
Noah, say hi.
SPEAKER_04 (01:08):
Hey, I'm Noah.
I'm partnered with Cookie on thepodcast tonight.
You also know that I'm partneredwith uh Cupcake, uh, who is
married to another man who hashis own partner, and we have
kind of a mix of partners slashkitchen table situation.
So that's who who I am.
SPEAKER_03 (01:30):
Good to have you tonight.
Cookie, we don't get shownoften.
I did I think sending you thatlist showing you, you know, that
we need you on here more kind ofyou know stirred a little fire
there.
SPEAKER_00 (01:39):
Well, yeah, yeah.
Uh I'm Cookie, uh partner withNoah and Cupcake.
Uh Noah introduced us prettywell.
And yeah, obviously I haven'tbeen on here enough, so I'm
happy to be back.
SPEAKER_03 (01:51):
Good to have you.
Okay, so the fact that we haveyou two tonight, and you know,
Cookie, I've known you for a along time now.
I'm long before the changes inyour lifestyle, kind of really
brought up the question.
Which is when was that momentwhere you realized that you
wanted to transition frommonogamy to poly?
(02:14):
What did that decision take?
How did you face it?
How did you talk to peoplearound you?
And I mean, the millionquestions that people are gonna
have about I'm monogamous and Ithink I want to be poly.
How do I make that step?
So, cookie, I put you on the onthe spot because like I said, I
know you I've known you in yourprevious life.
SPEAKER_00 (02:35):
Oh man, right.
So, yeah, so uh Alonzo met me inmy before life uh with my
ex-husband.
Um, and I was with my ex-husbandfor about 13 years.
And then before that, I had, Iguess, a couple somewhat
(02:56):
serious, but not super seriousuh relationships that were kind
of monogamous in structure aswell.
Um, and you know, I think a bigpart of why I started that way
is it's just very much set up asthe default.
Um, you know, my parents weremonogamous, pretty much everyone
in our family circle and all ofour friends were also
(03:17):
monogamous.
It was just um the structurethat was most familiar.
So the first one I sought after.
Uh, but I would say, you know,even before making that firm
choice, um, you know, every timeI would be in a relationship, it
felt like at some point uh thewhole setup felt limiting.
(03:39):
And I think like early on inthose relationships um that I
had since they were new and Iwas just new to relationships in
general, I kind of just feltlike, oh, well, that's just one
of those passing thoughts youhave about um, you know, of what
could be, and everybody hasthose.
Um but I uh yeah, after beingwith my relationship uh with my
(04:05):
ex-husband for so long, um, andactually kind of having a moment
where I broke up with him and weand we came back together and
tried again, um it kind ofrevalidated that feeling in me
that, you know, whoever I wouldbe with next, um, I would like
to explore something a bit moreexperimental, a bit more open.
(04:25):
Um, and I would like to, youknow, experiment with having
more intimate relationships umjust in my life, uh, because I
like to talk deeply with people.
I like to get to know people.
Um, and a big part of extendingthat can be, you know, in in
love, um, in sexuality andfriendship.
(04:46):
And I feel like um, you know,it's it's one of those things
when you're in in a monogamousrelationship for a long time and
it wasn't necessarily anagreement up front when when you
got into that relationship, butit was just a condition.
Um I found myself kind of justcoming back to that thought a
(05:09):
lot.
And eventually it kind of uh,and this will I guess will be
the controversial part, um, thethe pressures of that kind of
led me astray um in my in myexisting monogamous
relationship.
And I uh, you know, I was notfaithful and I was also feeling
like I was not in a position tocommunicate those feelings to my
(05:32):
partner and have them receivedsafely.
Um I felt like uh things werealready kind of falling apart
and I felt like I was alreadyoutgrowing um the relationship I
was in.
I've I started to kind ofacknowledge all the other ways
that I felt held back from thethings that I wanted to go after
(05:55):
in life because I was with aperson who really just had
different goals than me.
And um yeah, I think a lot ofthose realizations and thoughts
kind of led me to to take theactions of ending that and then
beginning a uh ethicallynon-monogamous relationship with
Noah, who happened to around thesame time be kind of going
(06:17):
through that same kind ofprocess, it seems.
I mean, I won't entirely speakfor him.
And you know, we had a lot ofour own private conversations
about that, but I also feel likeum it it aligned us both on that
journey to to take that togetherin in kind of a beautiful way.
And I, as messy as it seemed,maybe from the outside to some
(06:39):
people, I it it does feel moreright.
Um, I feel more aligned withwhat I'm interested in doing and
more able to speak to my partnernow about um experimental and
new things that I want to try.
And I don't feel those pressuresum anymore about the the
conditions of a of a culturallyreinforced relationship anymore.
(07:00):
And that part is very freeingfor me.
Um so yeah, it's it there is noone way about it.
It it is messy um to do thatkind of conversion, and and you
have to know that you're doingit for you, and there's gonna be
people around you who areunhappy about it, and there
might be people you might nevertalk to again by by taking
(07:20):
action on those things.
Um but you you just have todecide that you're gonna value
your experience more than thanthat, more than their opinions.
And uh it takes guts, it takes alot of guts to do that.
It and and yeah, for for anyoneconsidering that journey, like I
understand.
(07:41):
Uh and I wish I could reallyoffer like some really sound
advice, but every situation iskind of its own unique monster
to tackle.
SPEAKER_03 (07:50):
But you jumped deep.
I mean, you didn't just go frommonogamous to poly.
You went from monogamous to aand fairly vanilla to a BDSM
relation that's poly.
So like you took both plunges atthe same time.
SPEAKER_00 (08:07):
Did I yeah, right.
And I think I think a big partof that was just you know how
repressed I really was for solong, like how many interests I
had that were left unexplored,and then to finally find someone
who kind of aligned with a lotof those interests, like I was
more than prepared to jump inbecause I, you know, just had
all that time, all that time tobuild it up.
SPEAKER_03 (08:27):
And were you looking for both?
Did the did the poly come withthe BDSM or BDSM with poly, or
you were actively looking forboth of those at once?
SPEAKER_00 (08:37):
You know, I would say more so I was interested in
BDSM first, because I feel likepoly was is honestly so new for
me in comparison.
Like I feel like I knew aboutBDSM a little bit more um before
that, maybe for like 10 years orso before that, and was more
familiar and interested in that.
(08:57):
But again, I had a partner whowas just very not interested in
in exploring any of that.
Like that was just a veryuncomfortable thing to even ask
him to explore.
So um, and the thought of meexploring that with other
people, I could tell, made himuncomfortable too.
So that was just uh yeah, one ofthose things that I would think
(09:18):
about, you know, in the fantasyrealm a lot and it never quite
died.
And um as uh a bit of a thrillseeker, I feel like I I placed
some importance on that havingthat experience somehow.
Um and then, you know, byextension, when you get into
that type of thing, I feel likethere is just a very large
(09:40):
network of poly people.
Um, and also crossing over intothat.
I was interested in a lot of artfestivals and being around a lot
of artists and people who arejust generally a bit more
eclectic and open, like there'sjust this huge overlap of the
poly community.
And it just uh started tonaturally filter into the
(10:01):
spectrum of options availablefor what a relationship could
look like.
Um, and yeah, as someone who waskind of repressed in a
relationship, I wasn't reallyhappy with.
I was really interested in kindof jumping into a few different
directions.
Um I didn't expect to findsomeone like Cupcake so soon
after meeting Doah to exploresomething like Polly.
(10:22):
But when we got together, Ithink we agreed that we were
interested in in, you know,ethically finding ways to keep
it kind of open so we could wecould meet and and play with
other people.
Um and she just happenedeverything just happened to
align just so quickly and sofast, um that that I was able to
(10:43):
do that.
Um and I feel like it was a lotof his luck.
SPEAKER_03 (10:47):
I don't know.
So I want to go in twodirections with that.
Um, first, just to be clear,when you and Noah got together,
there was not any other partnersin the relationship at the time.
You both got together with theunderstanding that you wanted to
be poly.
Correct?
Correct.
How far before you made thedecision to leave your other
(11:10):
relationship did you reallystart thinking I'm Polly?
Or with you, did it start withI'm BDSM and that left.
How basically how long did youlive on the decision before you
pulled the trigger?
SPEAKER_00 (11:25):
I feel like I really started to consider it for like
a year to six months before itactually happened.
And it was mostly the BDSMportion um with a little bit of
poly mixed into that because itwas just another thing on the on
the bucket list that felt likeit would never happen in my
existing relationship.
Um but yeah, that it that feelslike about that amount of time.
(11:48):
And it's not that like I wasn'thaving moments of considering it
before that, but this was likethe amount of time where I it
really started to stick, like,no, I think this is something I
really want to pursue.
Like, like really started totake it seriously.
I would say six months to ayear.
SPEAKER_03 (12:04):
And if you don't mind me digging a little bit,
what percentage of your choiceto leave your previous
relationship?
13 years is a good time to beinvested, was the poly BDSM
part.
Was it the relationship was onthe rocks and that was a
contributing factor, or was thisa major part of your decision?
SPEAKER_00 (12:29):
I'd say a little bit of a half and half.
Like I feel like when, and Idon't want to speak for all
relationships with this, butwhen you break up with someone
and then you get back togetherwith them, I think there is
often an expectation that theperson is different now.
Um, and oftentimes early on, itreally does feel like that
person is different now and youare different now.
(12:52):
And it is fascinating to see howeven if you've changed a lot,
there are just a lot of othercore things that do not, or they
present themselves in new waysand annoy you just the same
ways.
Um, and and it kind of for mevalidated that this was kind of
an incompatible relationship.
(13:13):
Um, it validated to me that Iwas with someone who was not
helping me be my best um in alot of aspects of my life.
And um and those feelingsaccounted for maybe like half of
the reason I wanted to leave.
And then the other half was thedeprivation and repression
feelings, which I just feellike, especially over 13 years,
(13:35):
if you repeatedly kind of havethose thoughts, it builds up.
And as you get older, thepressure to, you know, do that
with the time you have left, thethe urgency to do something
about that increases.
And, you know, projecting mylife forward, imagining, you
know, okay, if I stay with thisperson, I know that all of these
(13:56):
thoughts are only gonna getworse.
Like I don't think that there'sanother way to alleviate my
curiosity about them unless Itry to engage with them.
And if I'm not with a person whoI can safely do that with, then
it's clear that that is a bigincompatibility um with my life
interests.
And uh and while it is maybe alittle selfish, um, I do think
(14:19):
it's still the right thing todo.
And um, I'm still glad I did it.
But it did it took a lot ofbravery and motivation and time
and uh kind of like deciding toquit cigarettes or something,
just like doing it, cold turkeydoing it, and just uh not trying
to dance around and try to makeeverybody happy when you leave.
(14:42):
Um it's just uh it's not gonnabe clean, you know.
It's just not you you can't havebeautiful expectations of uh you
know ending a thing perfectly.
SPEAKER_03 (14:56):
Um since you made the jump.
SPEAKER_00 (15:04):
A little over three years.
Three years, about three alittle over three years, yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (15:08):
Do you remember back to what some of your biggest um
fears and anguishes were thatnow realizing those weren't
really justified, I was afraidof X and that didn't happen.
Like with my previousrelationship.
SPEAKER_00 (15:25):
But with the transition in general.
Oh, sure, sure.
Um you know, I think I wasactually more afraid of staying
in a situation I didn't want tobe in than taking a chance.
Um, I don't think taking thischance was something that made
me fearful.
(15:45):
Um yeah, I think it was scarierto me to have the thought of no,
like I could be trapped here ina situation I don't want to be
in forever and and and try toplay it off like I chose this
and am happy in it, you know,like that that sounds like an
absolute living nightmare.
And I'm pretty certain it wouldhave been.
(16:05):
Um so yeah, I think my mybiggest fear just would have
been staying in that discomfort,staying in a place where I just
knew it wasn't right for me.
SPEAKER_03 (16:13):
Were there any pain points that you didn't see
coming?
Where after you made thetransition, all of a sudden you
went, ouch! I didn't expectthat.
SPEAKER_00 (16:24):
Um I mean, I will say, like, I don't feel like I'm
necessarily on bad terms withanybody after the fact, but I
definitely feel like I kind oflost some friends um and
connections, and that thatalways hurts a little bit.
Um, and as much as my ex-husbandis, I feel like is is com
(16:47):
incompatible with me on thatrelationship level, like we had
other compatibilities that I domiss.
Um, and those, you know, it doeshurt.
It does hurt to not have thatanymore.
Um But uh I honestly can't thinkof a single thing I regret.
(17:08):
Uh even how long it took, Ireally can't be that mad at
myself for it.
It like, yeah, it would havebeen nice to have addressed this
sooner or realized it sooner.
Um but better late than neverdefinitely rings true for me for
that.
So uh yeah, I I reallyapproached this whole thing as a
(17:29):
very just uh forgiving of myselfkind of thing.
Um I'm a fallible human beingjust like anybody else.
And choosing a relationshipthat's not right for me is a
completely valid mistake that Ithink a lot of people do make.
And um and that's okay, youknow, like I don't need to prove
to the world that I made theright choice by just by staying
(17:50):
in it, you know, just to belike, ha, you know, I chose
right.
I told you so.
I'm I'm perfect, I knoweverything, you know, because
that's just a big act.
I'll still have to feel theweight of of knowing that I
didn't.
SPEAKER_03 (18:05):
So last question, then I'll get on get on Noah.
We haven't been asking you muchso far.
How long was the transition fromwhen you you know you decided
this is going to happen to ithappened?
Is it something that you draggedout for weeks or months or days?
SPEAKER_00 (18:27):
Yeah, I feel like I I knew it would happen soon-ish
for that six months to a year,and then like the time the plan
to exit was probably two orthree months, maybe a little bit
less.
But yeah, I'd say three months,like the the intention was set,
like no, I'm going to leave soonfor sure.
(18:48):
Very soon.
And then uh yeah, and then kindof comes just a lot of uh
planning, pre-planning beforethat, pre-grieving, which is a
little unfair for your existingpartner, but still something
that needs to be done, I think.
Um and uh uh Yeah, as soon aslike the new year started, that
(19:11):
felt like a big refresh point.
We're like, okay, like this is agood time to move forward, and
then yeah, a couple months laterit happened.
Um and yeah, I'd say ithappened, happened like within a
week.
Like it was a very aggressive uhyou know, moment.
Like I moved out within a weekjust suddenly and was done, and
(19:34):
that and that was it.
Didn't look back.
SPEAKER_03 (19:37):
Okay, and I'll come back to that, but Noah.
Talk about your relationshipprior, because you were in a
also a long-term monogamousrelationship, right?
SPEAKER_04 (19:49):
I was, yeah.
And I have a lot to say, so I'mgonna try to do my best to
organize my thoughts in a waythat uh makes sense and doesn't
take up hours of time.
But uh to try to keep a longstory short, I was married uh
for over 17 years.
Um and we had gotten married uhvery young, um, at least by
(20:13):
today's standards.
We were in our very early 20s.
Um my ex-wife wasn't even oldenough to drink when we got
married, um and we really didn'tknow shit about shit.
We had no idea how the worldworked, and I think her and I
both, uh, but me especially, um,was playing the world by
(20:35):
numbers, right?
We were painting by numbers.
It was I graduated high school,I got a full-time big boy job.
I moved out to well, beforethat, I moved out to California.
Um I originally grew up inMinnesota, and um I I I then
(20:56):
said, okay, well, what's next?
So I I met a girl shortly afterI moved to California.
Uh we paid it off.
Um I then decided, okay, well,I've got a big boy job, I've
moved states, I'm an adult now.
I guess I'll ask her to marryme.
Because that's the next step,right?
That's what you do when you'rean adult.
(21:17):
And then I decided the nextthing to do then is buy a house
and have a kid.
So I did those things.
And so now I'm in my you know,mid to late twenties at this
point.
And I I realize that I'm I'm nothappy.
(21:38):
Um both in my marriage, which Icould talk all day about, but I
won't.
But um it wasn't good reallyfrom the start.
Um, but I stuck it out uhbecause of my at the time
Christian values, um, which toldme that you stay no matter what,
you are a loyal husband, andthis is what you do for God.
(22:00):
And country and whatever else.
Right.
And I that was the manly thingto do was to basically just
suffer in it.
That's the choice you made, andit's forever.
So that's what you do.
Um and I honestly felt lost.
I I I when I had those things, Ihad the kid and the house and
(22:22):
the wife.
Um not such a bad life when youlook at it from the outside, but
I felt very empty in so manyways.
And ultimately, I just said,well, I guess my next goal is to
die.
So I'm not trying to say that inlike a suicidal way, but that
(22:43):
was just what I was waiting for.
I was just marking time untilthat happened, I guess.
Um, I was in a groundhog daylife where I came home from
work.
And in my marriage, I reallywasn't allowed to explore my
desires or wants, uh, evenhobbies.
Um, so I'd watch reality shows Ididn't care about um just to
(23:04):
make her happy.
And then I'd go to bed, usuallyangry.
And that was kind of my life.
It's just it was how I felt.
And um I remember wanting somuch more, but it always felt
wrong or gross or that I'd be, Ishould be ashamed of it, even
(23:29):
though it's what I desired.
And it was, you know, I I wouldmeet other people in my life uh
who were interesting to me,people who, you know, I wanted
uh a stronger relationship with,but I wasn't allowed to because
I was in a monogamousrelationship.
(23:50):
And for most of my life, I'll behonest, I've I've always thought
um people took sex way tooseriously.
In the sense that uh not that itshouldn't be taken seriously to
a point, but um sex is not justan expression of love, it's an
expression of enjoyment and fun.
(24:12):
Um and I think to a point withinsome level of responsibility, uh
we shouldn't pretend that it'ssome huge level, some crazy
barrier of uh uh you know whatI'm trying to say.
That it's a like a major deal tohave sex, I guess.
(24:36):
Anyway, so I'm going throughthis relationship for about 17
years, um, and I meet Cookie.
And when I meet Cookie, um thiswas another person who I had a
connection with.
This was another person I feltuh a strong connection with
(24:58):
almost immediately.
And it wasn't the first time Ihad felt this kind of
connection.
Like I said, I've felt thisbefore uh many times.
Um but I think this was just themoment that we both had needed
when we met each other.
It was the right timing when weare both felt maybe a little
desperate in our relationships,um a little lost and feeling
(25:28):
maybe unloved in ourrelationships.
Um and we talked a lot, wetalked a lot, and at first it
was relatively innocent, um andthen it became not, to be
honest, and people can makewhatever opinions they want on
(25:52):
that, but um we really learned alot about each other, and we had
a lot of commonalities in how wewere living our life, a lot of
parallels, um, and our feelingsaround sex and non-monogamy and
BDSM um were very much aligned.
(26:15):
Um, she had, you know, sharedsome desires and fantasies with
me.
And I'll be honest, a lot ofthat was not new per se in the
idea of, but it was new in thesense that that can happen.
That's a real thing that peopledo.
I had uh basically been livingmy life with the idea that that
was only something that happenedin movies or TV, or you know,
(26:37):
and always ended in disaster,right?
You would invite someone elseinto your bedroom, or you know,
you would have a relationshipoutside your home, even if it
was consensual, and it would umalways end up in disaster.
That's basically how it'sportrayed in Hollywood or in in
(26:58):
culture.
And so I had I had really beenof the belief that that was not
a real thing that had reallyhappened on a regular basis,
that it was an extremely rarething and certainly nothing that
ever really worked out.
Um but Cookie had kind of openedthat world up to me because she
was more aware of it than I was.
(27:19):
And that allowed me to do alittle bit of research and see
some things and become part ofyou know, some internet
communities, et cetera, thatreally opened my eyes to a lot
of uh a lot of things.
And um that was a hugeeye-opening moment for me.
(27:44):
When when I realized that theway that I was living my life,
which again was a paint bynumbers, it was what I was told
to do.
It was the this is what you dowhen you become an adult.
You get a job, you have kids,you buy a house, get married.
(28:05):
That's the plan.
Um and even if it didn't feelright, that was what you were
supposed to do.
And then I learned that youdon't have to do that.
And that was such uh a relief inso many ways.
I suddenly felt like I hadoptions, and then on top of
(28:26):
that, I had met someone who feltperfect to explore those options
with.
SPEAKER_03 (28:33):
So you jumped from vanilla monogamy to BDSM
polyamory.
SPEAKER_04 (28:42):
Yeah, I did.
I did.
And I had had all of thosedesires over the years, but I
had really pushed them down orignored them or pretended they
didn't exist or only exploredthem in porn or what have you,
right?
Um, it wasn't something that Ihad taken seriously.
And uh yeah, when uh Cookie hadexpressed those desires to
(29:07):
suddenly have someone to explorethat with was um a whole new
world just opened up to me.
Um and we didn't act on thosefor quite some time.
It was a lot of talk, mostlygetting to know each other and
exploring our own desires.
Um, I'd say for many, many, manymonths of just talking, just
(29:32):
chatting online, basically iswhat it was.
Um we got to know each other sowell in that time.
Um and then yeah, I I I weeventually got to a point where
we couldn't take it anymore, andwe we began cheating on our
(29:53):
partners, to keep it simple.
Um and that was basically when Ihad decided that I was done with
my marriage.
And I had told Cookie at thetime, whether or not you're
going to leave your husband, I'mgoing to be leaving my wife.
(30:14):
And I had basically set a timeof the new year for my own
personal reasons, Christmas witha child, yada yada yada, right?
Um it didn't quite work out thatway.
Um, but that was my plan.
And I had told Cookie, I waslike, listen, I'm I'm I'm
leaving my wife.
(30:34):
You don't have to make anychoices that you don't want to
make.
Um, but this is a choice I'mgonna make regardless of your
choice.
Um and you're welcome to comewith me.
But this is where it's going.
And I did make that choicebefore she had made hers.
I moved out and I, you know,told her, I'll make you a key.
(30:55):
Here's my new place.
You're welcome to move in.
Um and she made her choice then.
And that was that's basicallythe the gist.
That's the gist.
SPEAKER_03 (31:09):
Well it sounds like you weren't actively out looking
for the change.
The change found you.
SPEAKER_04 (31:15):
The change found me, absolutely.
And I've I've I've in these lastfew years not been happier in my
life ever.
This is the happiest I've everbeen.
Um Cookie is the best among us.
I say that for all humanity,she's the best among us.
(31:36):
Um and and having her as mypartner and um having her as my
nesting partner um has been thebest experience of my life,
hands down.
And I do not regret for a seconduh the choices that I made.
(31:56):
Um I would do it all again.
SPEAKER_03 (32:02):
You know, one of the things that you see over and
over with marriages, and it wastrue with mine too, when we get
married very young, we don'tknow ourselves yet.
And as as we get older and westart discovering who we are, we
can realize that we madecommitments to things that
weren't right for us, and it'sit's always painful.
(32:23):
But the step from one monogamousrelationship to another is
confusing enough.
The step from a monogamousrelationship into a poly
relationship, that's wherethings get complicated.
No, when you were thinking aboutstepping out, and then ask you
the same question I askedCookie, and I I do this for the
the audience out there.
(32:45):
What fears did you have that youthen found later were unfounded?
Things that you were afraid youwould face that you didn't, and
inversely, what things shouldyou have been afraid of that you
didn't know you should have beenbecause they came back and bit
you in the butt.
SPEAKER_04 (33:07):
Yeah, I think uh one is and Cookie might laugh at me
when I say this, but thefinancial cost.
I remember telling her, youknow, we were married for a long
time in the state of California.
You married over 10 years, youowe alimony for the rest of your
life.
And my ex-wife, uh, while shedid work, did not make as much
(33:29):
money as I did.
And so I am thereforeresponsible for the rest of my
life to pay for her to have anequal um lifestyle to what she
had while we were married.
Um and that was very scary forme because uh I remember telling
her, I'm gonna have just a realsad dad apartment, is what I
(33:51):
called it, right?
It's probably gonna be a studioor a one bedroom.
I'll be sleeping on the couch somy kid can have the other
bedroom when he's with me,assuming I get any custody.
That was the other fear, right?
That I might not have anycustody of my child.
Um and uh yeah, I was afraidthat I would be absolutely
financially ruined, potentiallyfor the rest of my life.
(34:14):
And while it was nowhere closeto free, and it has cost me a
lot of money, it wasn't thatbad.
And there is uh a light at theend of the tunnel.
I see, you know, where I canrecover.
Um, you know, after three years,I'm pretty much outside of the
(34:35):
worst of it.
And um I imagine in a few moreyears I'll be uh back to where I
was prior to all of this.
So five or six years, I guess,after a 17-year marriage doesn't
really feel um like that big ofa sacrifice in the end of
(34:55):
things.
Um, but again, not free.
It definitely cost me about$1,000, right, to to handle all
of this, but it was uhabsolutely worth it.
I'd pay it twice over to do thisagain.
So uh that was the the biggestfear.
(35:16):
The other one would be again,there's a child involved.
I do have a teenage son um whoat the time was uh preteen, um
which is a very, you know, uhdelicate age for a child and to
go through a divorce, which he'snot the first one.
(35:37):
I in fact had my parents divorceeach other twice while I was
growing up, once when I was muchyounger and once when I was
about his age.
Um I had some comfort in that,knowing, having been through it
myself, knowing that he'd befine ultimately.
And the way that he would befine was by doing my best to
(35:59):
cooperate with my ex-wife ondealing with the child
situation.
Um, and the the other fear, andsome of it came true and some of
it didn't, is your relationshipswith other people, friendships,
uh, family, et cetera.
Um, and I did lose one or twofriends, um, one of which was
(36:21):
actually very unexpected.
Uh, my best friend, who uhdidn't really seem to have
really much relationship with myex-wife at all, and who
seemingly had taken, not takenmy side, but had been behind me,
happy for my transition, happythat I'm happy, uh suddenly just
(36:44):
changed and kind of ghosted me.
Um and while he never saidthat's what it was about, I feel
like that's what it was about,was his opinion of me changed.
So there is a real risk oflosing relationships, and that
is an unfortunate part, butagain, um I do it again, even
(37:04):
knowing that to be true.
Um, I still have friends, I'vemade new friends since.
My um my group has grown,Alonzo.
You're part of that group,right?
Um and so life continues to goon.
And so I think that's somethingthat we need to remember is uh
(37:27):
you're ending something major,especially if you've been doing
it for so very long.
Um but it's not the end ofeverything.
You're creating something new,it's a new beginning.
And if you're doing things rightin Polly, it's a new beginning
(37:47):
where you're meeting new peopleand starting new relationships,
sometimes romantic, sometimesjust friendships, um, but you're
being introduced to a newcommunity and many new people.
Um which has its own beauty.
SPEAKER_03 (38:03):
We've all watched um friends of ours go through
divorces, monogamous marriagesbreaking up.
How would you compare yourselfto that for either one of you?
I mean, do you have a comparisonwith your going from monogamy to
poly and ending a monogamousrelationship to what most people
(38:24):
go through just monogamy tomonogamy?
Do you have any view on how thatlooks?
SPEAKER_04 (38:30):
Uh me personally, uh I I do in the sense that I it
was critical to start a newrelationship as poly with
someone who was open to poly.
Neither one of us uh tried todrag our previous partners,
(38:54):
previous marriages into polyrelationships.
Neither one of us made thatultimatum.
Um, because I think neither oneof us feel that's fair, right?
Monogamy isn't wrong.
I don't think monogamy is wrong.
It's a choice, just like beingpoly is a choice, right?
SPEAKER_03 (39:14):
Like putting pineapple on a pizza.
SPEAKER_04 (39:16):
It's a choice.
Right.
Right, right.
Um and there are people who arepoly who choose to be monogamous
after time.
And there are, you know, inrarer instances, people who are
monogamous who decide to be polyover time.
Um, however, both partners mustbe in it and ready to do it.
(39:37):
You cannot drag a partner intoit.
And I think that is a criticalrealization and something that
uh with Cookie and I, we bothknew that being poly um would at
the very least be uh aconsideration for our new
(39:57):
relationship, if not aguaranteed uh part of it.
Um and along with BDSM.
That was also part of it.
Um and and I and I think that'scritical.
You must have that understandingfrom the get-go.
Um converting someone into thislifestyle, I think, is the wrong
(40:21):
way to go.
It's only gonna end in heartacheand pain for both of you, but
especially the person thatyou're trying to drag through
into your desires.
SPEAKER_00 (40:34):
Yeah, I feel like I I agree.
I agree with Noah.
And then I would also add, youknow, it's not just about
finding that partner who iscompatible with you in terms of
um, you know, uh sexual andrelationship goals and
(40:55):
interests, but also finding apartner that you are able to be
vulnerable with and that youknow that you can clearly
communicate with and you'reconfident that you um this
person understands you.
Um because especially when youenter the the poly realm of
things, the complexity that'sadded and the things that you
(41:17):
need to talk about and theempathy required is gonna
require radical honesty fromboth of you to really do that
right um and to really honoryour feelings on things and to
allow the possibility of someoneto change their mind about
anything at any time and and beable and willing to express that
(41:40):
um to the other person.
Uh and I feel like when you havethose initial incompatibilities,
you kind of build up um a senseof self that's false, you build
up a lot of secrecy, you buildup a lot of shame and starting a
relationship with someone wherethat is most certainly not on
the table anymore.
(42:02):
Um it's kind of like an entirelynew context.
You get to be yourself, it turnsinto a journey of exploration
together, of honest explorationtogether, and you get to um, you
know, talk about what happenedtogether without worrying that
that someone's gonna be upsetabout it because you tried to
sell them on monogamy or polyahead of time or because, you
(42:26):
know, um you just wanted to toplay around with something
different um after you've beenin a specific kind of dynamic
for so long.
It's it's risky to do that.
And and as Noah said, it's it'sunfair when you're with a
partner who didn't come to thatsame place as you and maybe
instead just isn't a apeople-pleasing point of view
(42:47):
where they're like, well, Iguess I'll try it because you're
interested in it.
That's a that's a dangerousplace to be.
Um it's gonna cause a lot offriction, like really in those
moments that partner should beexpressing to you that they're
uncomfortable with that and thatincompatibility should be
recognized and talked about.
And if it cannot be, you know,rectified uh in a cooperative
(43:07):
manner, then um, you know, youhave to both decide if that is
important enough to you thatthat that is a genuine
incompatibility of therelationship and maybe it is
better um to leave in it.
And it's it's tricky.
It's tricky, but uh yeah, I verymuch agree with Noah.
Like this lifestyle is not it'snot to be sold to a partner.
(43:30):
It it you should find a partnerwho's already interested in it,
um, who's already on that samepage and uh yeah, with nothing
to peddle.
Just just you know.
SPEAKER_03 (43:42):
But let me ask you both, let me ask you both a
final question.
I'm gonna have you answer this adifferent way.
I'm gonna ask you both the samequestion.
Okay.
A very, very dear friend comesup to you and says, I'm
miserable in my marriage.
I'm miserable.
In the monogamous relationship,I'm in.
(44:04):
I don't hate my spouse.
I love them.
But it doesn't work for meanymore.
And I really want to move into apoly lifestyle.
We do.
Noah?
What do I do?
SPEAKER_04 (44:22):
Well, uh, so I think you need to address this with
two stages.
One is you're miserable in yourmarriage.
Is it because you want to bepoly?
Or is it because you'remiserable in your marriage for a
bunch of other reasons?
Um, why do you want to be poly?
Now, if we forget about the polyjust for a second, if it's just
(44:46):
a bunch of marriage problems,maybe you should try to work on
that.
I tried.
Didn't work out.
I do think everybody should tryto make their marriage work if
it's something that they desireto do.
But if you are truly unhappy, umlife is finite.
You're only here once, it onlylasts for a little bit of time.
(45:08):
Um and while we like to pretendthat marriage is some sort of,
you know, infinite contract thatnever ends, um, it's just not
true.
So if you are truly unhappy andtruly ready to move on, then it
is only fair for you to makethat known to your marriage
(45:32):
partner, your spouse, um, andend things.
And if you would like to be uhpoly, then you should enter into
the poly community.
Poly SoCal is a great place tostart.
Um and you know, there's plentyof internet resources out there.
Just start googling around,you'll find all sorts of
(45:54):
information.
Um, and you can try to enter thepoly community.
There are dating apps out therespecifically for for poly.
Um and that's what I wouldrecommend to do after you've
ended your marriage.
Obviously, that's not the waythat I necessarily went about
things.
I'm not saying what I did wasperfect.
(46:14):
However, um, if I'm going togive someone advice, that's the
cleanest way.
SPEAKER_03 (46:20):
Well, frequently in life, it's don't do it the way I
did it because it wasn't quitethe best.
Yeah.
Cookie, what about you?
This friend comes up to youthey're looking for your words
of wisdom.
What do you tell them?
SPEAKER_00 (46:36):
Um, yeah, you know, and it's uh it's funny because
after having done this, I havepreviously had um a very close
friend kind of give me a callafter she had experienced, you
know, meeting someone at a workouting.
And she, you know, started toexperience some of those
(46:56):
thoughts, some of those what-ifthoughts, right?
You sometimes all it takes isjust meeting a person and it
will completely just interruptyour whole uh internal world and
you'll you'll really start toentertain things um that either
you repressed or just didn'teven know about.
Um and it can really send youinto a uh a mental spiral.
(47:18):
And I think there's there's alot to process with those
feelings of I'm not, I don'tthink I'm in the right place.
Um and I I agree with Noah, likeseeking some support from a
therapist, both in, you know,either trying to make your
marriage work if you if you dofeel like there's a chance and
you you just feel like there'ssome struggles that feel
workable, um, maybe it's worthit.
(47:40):
Uh I know Alonzo told me, youknow, don't throw the baby out
with the bathwater, you know,like um you had given me some
advice.
Um, but again, like givingadvice is the best that I could
offer.
I I am not there to give anyonean instructional of how to do
(48:00):
it, what to do it, the bestapproach for them.
Um, in addition to going totherapy for the relationship, I
think going to therapy for theself is also just as important.
Really exploring, like, yeah,like is this about um the fact
that you just want Polly?
Um, or or is there more to it?
Like, what what are yourepressing?
And really getting to the bottomof of um your struggles that led
(48:24):
to the the breakdown that you'recurrently experiencing in the
relationship is is important foryou to know um and take with you
either when you go on to repairyour existing relationship or
when you go on to have otherrelationships, because um it's
not like all of your lifestruggles just go away when you
enter a new relationship format.
(48:46):
So it's um I think it'simportant uh, as anyone will
tell you, if you end anyrelationship, hey, you should
take a break, you should takesome time.
Um, it it is the responsiblething to do to just kind of
recenter yourself, really get agood idea of what are your
goals, what have you beenmissing, what's been bothering
you?
Um, you know, uh who are the thepeople in your life who maybe
(49:10):
brought you to question this ifthere's any, or um, you know,
who are the people around youwho are maybe making you feel
really guilty about leaving thisrelationship and you know, ask
yourself, like, are there otherpeople complicating this for me?
Like, am I really making thedecision based on what I want?
I think those are all reallyimportant questions to ask.
(49:32):
Um, I think this is a really biginternal experience and internal
exploration that you go through,especially switching from a full
relationship format of monogamyto polyamory.
Um and I think you really must,you must know yourself well to
do this smoothly andsuccessfully to give yourself
the best chance of this workingout.
(49:54):
Um and then yeah, luckily we welive in a world now where there
seems to be a lot of resourcesto kind of help you connect to
communities and other people whohave done this.
Um and I I love that there aretherapists who specialize in in
poly things or justnon-traditional relationships
that you can seek out and reallyget like a a specific
(50:17):
perspective from someone who'sreally seen a lot of this.
And I think um there's a lot ofways you can build your
confidence around that decision,even if you know nobody in your
life who's done this.
Um honestly, like I was kind ofin that place.
Like it's not like I knewanybody who was poly who was
close to me or ever made thatchoice.
Like I was really the only one.
(50:38):
Um and in making this choice,like it's not really like I
announced it to the world, likea big coming out experience
either.
I think there's still a lot ofpeople in my life who probably
don't even know that I that Idid this.
Um, and I'm also okay with thattoo.
Um, because again, I'm not inthis for the approval of
everyone else.
I'm I'm in this for my ownapproval and you know, my
(51:00):
happiness and where I want to gowith this.
Um, and if it pleases otherpeople around me, that's great,
but that can't be uh the greatdeciding factor when it's when
it's about my life, you know.
SPEAKER_03 (51:13):
Very well said.
And we have a number of thoseexperts on our show.
So listen to some of ours andtalk to some of the some of the
people that we talk to.
We got some good ones coming up.
Guys, when I, you know, thoughtabout having you two on tonight,
this was obviously the topicthat was right.
I thank you guys for for goingdeep and as always being um very
candid about your past and yourexperiences.
(51:36):
Yeah, you're awesome.
Any last thoughts before we callthis one a rap for tonight?
Noah, Cookie, you're awesome.
Anything we had we need to saythat we didn't.
SPEAKER_04 (51:48):
The only thing I would say is um you know, Cookie
had mentioned therapy.
Um, couples therapy, if you arein a marriage that you are
trying to fix, I think is agreat place to start.
Um, but I don't think I wouldhave made the choices that I
made.
And again, these were choicesthat I feel in my life were
(52:08):
extremely positive.
As hard as they were to make, ashard as they were to rip the
band-aid off.
Personal one-on-one therapy withmy own therapist um was critical
in making this choice.
They were on my side, theyhelped me process a lot of my
feelings.
Um, and that was huge for me.
(52:30):
And I think we now live in aworld where therapy is much more
accessible and understood andaccepted.
And I think uh everyone who isstruggling even a little bit,
maybe if you even if you're not,should consider therapy at least
for a little while to helpprocess some things.
And especially if you're goingsomething like this, um it can
(52:51):
be exactly what you need to makethe leap that you're too afraid
to make.
SPEAKER_03 (52:58):
Excellent advice.
Okay, any last words?
SPEAKER_00 (53:02):
Yeah, you know, at the end of the day, it it really
comes down to you and what youwant and respect for your time
and your goals and your life.
And um, you know, in addition toall of those therapy resources
out there, in the moments thatyou're actually undergoing a big
process, like leaving someone,it's really nice to just have
(53:23):
some good friends around, um,really lean on your support
system.
Um people that you trust, Ithink will will help you not
feel so alone.
Um it's really hard to to againbuild up that that confidence
and that bravery to take thatstep.
(53:44):
Um, it's really easy to haveideas and thoughts about leaving
someone or leaving a job even ormoving to a new place.
Um it's a it's a big change andit is scary and it is tempting
to try to convince yourself,tell yourself stories about why
you should keep doing what youdon't like doing just because
(54:05):
it's not that bad, or justbecause, oh, well, maybe things
will change, or um, you know,maybe your mom really likes this
person or there's some familiarpressure.
There's a kid and you don't wantto disappoint them like you.
Um it's it's really important toyeah, be in touch with yourself,
(54:25):
be in touch with your friends,don't isolate yourself.
Um don't uh yeah, and don't betoo rash, you know.
Just really um it's important toto think it out.
Anything can happen really fast,um, but you uh you don't want to
regret something big that youdecide to do.
(54:46):
So it's set set yourself up forsuccess and and and do it, you
know.
SPEAKER_03 (54:52):
I think on that note, we will end tonight's
call.
Noah cookie.
It's been awesome having you onyet again.
Cookie, we hope we get you backa lot.
You gotta give them stats up,get up into some of the some of
the high views.
I can't be the bottom bottom,you know.
Hi, Melonzo Banks.
This has been the Polly So CowPodcast.
(55:14):
Good night, everybody.
(55:50):
So come, probably so come.
Come on, this will probably socome, come and come this room is
probably right.
Twenty twenty-five, three.
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