February 23, 2026 • 28 mins
Nat and Kristen do a deep dive on personality tests - yep, including the bird one from the 90s - before diving into the Business Chemistry assessment and its four archetypes: the Pioneer (40 browser tabs open, hates admin), the Guardian (actually reads the terms and conditions), the Driver (please just get to the point), and the Integrator (felt the tension in the room before anyone said a word). Turns out Nat and Kristen are complete opposites, which explains a lot. Take the free five-minute test, do it on your business partner or colleagues, and finally have language for why you keep talking past each other in meetings.
Business chemistry test: https://bc20questions.deloitte.com/#/
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Episode Transcript
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(00:05):
Welcome to Power Up, the podcastthat uncovers the unique
challenges women leaders face today.
Join your hosts Nat and Kristen as we dive into the tough topics
and provide actionable insights you can apply right now.
Don't forget to hit subscribe soyou don't miss any episodes.
(00:38):
My favorite personality test was1.
I did, gosh, probably like 30 years ago with some of my best
friends, and it was the bird 1. So you're like an owl or a
Peacock or a dove. And I really loved it.
And it reminded me when we did another one recently how these
tools are so helpful for helpingus realize things about
(01:00):
ourselves and others. And that is also.
Kind of a big. Industry, right?
Yeah. That can I first ask what bird
were you? I was a eagle Peacock.
I totally get the Peacock thing.Not everywhere we go not needs
claps for everything she does. Yeah, we have to.
(01:23):
So I get the I get the actually and I get the eagle thing, the
scanning the above everything, the checking it opportunities
and above. I love it.
It's great. Yeah, the we're.
Actually really good. What I did learn during it is I
am not a fan of a dove. I suppose eagles eat doves.
Doves are your classic peacekeepers.
However, one of my besties is a dove, and she's the only dove
(01:46):
that I've ever been able to really connect with because I
usually really struggle with people who are conflict avoidant
in the moment and therefore create a lot more conflict over
time because they, like, pretendeverything's fine when it's not.
And yeah, now I've realized, like, it's funny how, yeah, a
bird can, you know, but direct. That's so funny.
(02:09):
Back to original point, questionis that yes, this is a they're
everywhere personality tests. They are a billion dollar
industry and companies pay good money to understand why their
employees can't get along or to test people as they come into
their organization. And my first personality tests
(02:31):
that comes to mind was actually in New Zealand.
And I remember moving here and it being all the rage.
And I feel like I had to, I was applying for jobs here and I
feel like I had to take all these IQ slash personality
tests. And I found it really
frustrating. I was like, I have to spend all
this investment and all this time and I remember multiple
interviews and tests and I was like, Oh my gosh, this isn't for
(02:53):
the CEO role people. But you know, I've been here for
some time now. It is normalized.
I'm not suggesting they're not done overseas because of course
they are, but that was my first experience was here in New
Zealand, which was really funny,but.
Anyway may have arrived at the peak personality test time
because I know for to be fear dead warp being hide into CEO
(03:14):
roles, but his last few he said I learned how to game like he
said like everyone was using thesame 1.
So you're like what person do you want?
OK, great. I think everybody.
Said it was really. Easy to like kind of understand
what people are looking for whenyou did so many of them all the
time. I know.
And Speaking of, they probably, I didn't look at the history of
(03:34):
where they came from, but it makes sense to me that military
CIA, because at the time, this peak personality time when we
were leaving Canada for New Zealand, I had a friend that was
being interviewed into the, I don't know what it's called, the
Secret Service of Canada. And she told me about some of
the tests they were putting her through.
It was incredible. So they're they're likely
there's a history there. But anyway.
(03:57):
We did, which is the one we did a couple of years ago back at
Hedge and we found out that three out of four of us had that
was the like E and TJ one or whatever it is, the the all
those different leaders and thatthree out of four of us had a
particular one in common. That meant that we were
methodical, that we would project plan with step by step
through in one was a really do abig bunch of stuff at the start,
(04:19):
sort of stop and get lost in themiddle and then race to the
finish and that we all win. Now we get it.
Well, that was that was the MyerBriggs from what I recall.
And many people will know that. But I think there's also the 16
personalities that is a a more friendly take on it.
And they even have things like, I think I remember I'm Michelle
(04:42):
Obama as part of my 16 personalities, which is really.
Just I was brick. Oh, Oh my gosh, no wonder we're
together and anyway that I thinkso Myersburg 16 personalities
and the one that I recall being formative once I finally did get
a job in New Zealand was disk and I came out hardcore D as, as
(05:03):
you might imagine, a little bit towards.
Wait, what does D stand for? Dominant and then I is kind of
inspiration storyteller. So I was kind of hardcore D
towards the eye and I always wondered why I wasn't getting
along with my, with the CTO at the time.
And it's because he was the exact opposite of the disk,
(05:23):
which was, you know, very different way of navigating and
seeing the world. So very, I, I think they are
useful in how you work with others, understanding your
style, maybe where conflict can arise, how you'll clash any gaps
and then what you can do about it, which I think is.
Fabulous. I completely agree.
Yeah, yeah. We'd always wondered, though not
(05:44):
on a given day, like if we were to take a test now and then
tomorrow or maybe in two weeks, how much do you think it
changes? I don't know if it changes that
quickly, but I do think it changes like if you're in an
organization and I think we've seen this a lot over the last
couple of years where they may have been really operational and
(06:05):
you don't know what the strategyis and you don't know where it's
hitting and it feels everything's uncertain.
I suspect you start to value andprioritize certainty and
strategy and a little bit more. So I think there is contextual
like you do see it with people and then I think over time as
you get more experience in life and work, I suspect that also
(06:27):
probably changes a bit. But my understanding is and like
all of these things, there's science based, but you know,
nature, nurture, etcetera, is that most of the time, and this
is what I find so fascinating about them, you are answering
quite quickly. And every time I answer, I'm
like these normally are pretty obvious answers.
(06:48):
You find out just how fundamentally different everyone
is because they gave a very different answers.
I love it. Yeah, I I agree and I do think
seasons of life to your point, you can shift taking because I
know when I were the one we're going to chat about today is
called the business chemistry one and we'd really encourage
people to take it. It's going to be in the show
(07:09):
notes. It's free to take gosh, maybe 5
minutes and this one is a great one.
If you are in business with someone, working closely with
someone, of course, in working in a really tight team
environment where you need to navigate other people and their
decisions and their communication styles a lot.
This is a great one to take. We love the strengths one for
(07:31):
looking at our individual strengths and personal brands,
but this one in particular is actually about the chemistry you
might have with a business partner or a close colleague or
even your manager actually for that or or your team member for
that matter. But, but I think different
seasons. When I re redid the test last
night, because I couldn't remember which order mine came
(07:53):
in, I thought I would have answered this very differently
15 years ago. So I I think that changes as
well, not every question, but some of them.
So anyway, here we go. Should we talk business
chemistry? And what we're going to do is
take everyone through the four, I don't know, archetypes of this
test. We're not looking to put people
(08:14):
in a box. But as we describe these 4
archetypes, we'd love for you togo, oh, I think that's me.
Do you see yourself in them? And then as we describe these
archetypes, do you see close colleagues or business partners
in these archetypes as we read through them?
That's the point of this exercise.
Well, the the thing that is quite interesting about this,
two things. One, if you are listening in a
(08:34):
place that you can go do it now,I would say pause and go do it
now. It's like a 5 minute 5.
It's like 20 questions. It's not much.
The second thing I love about this one is like you say, it's
the chemistry, it's the interaction.
So it's actually designed to notjust to do on yourself, but to
do on the people around you, which therefore helps you
understand like, oh, when I do this, they interpret it like
(08:56):
that. Or when they do this, it
actually means this and it really helps you get out of your
own way of thinking and acting and really looking at the people
around you. So unlike a lot of other
personality tiers, I think the sun that the interactivity of it
and how it informs how you communicate and behave around
other people, I think is really valuable.
But while I think yes, please pick and think about who you
(09:18):
might be, do the test. Because often we have an idea of
who we are and who other people are.
And doing the test is a helpful way of maybe challenging that
bias as well. Because I think, I think if I
read these descriptions, I probably would have picked us
both from them. But I think it was nice to come
in cold and find out what they were through doing the test and
(09:41):
then kind of going, oh, what does that mean?
Agreed. Great call out.
So we're not going to share whatwe are immediately.
Let's go through all four and then we can kind of reveal what
what our test results were. But I think that we yeah, that
we then did them on each other and celebration.
It was right on all accounts like our self-awareness and
(10:01):
awareness of others was really nicely surprising.
So anyway, we'll get to that. Michelle Obama, so we do know.
That's true. OK, now take it.
Take it away with the first one.We have the pioneer, the risk
taker, big picture thinker. So this person is the first to
volunteer for projects, for new things.
(10:21):
They get bored easily it seems once the exciting bit is done.
But I presume I'm reading some notes.
But I think it's also when they know something like they're not
a like I want to stick and do the same thing over and over
again. Once I've learned it, I'm moving
on to the next thing. Meetings for meetings sake.
Reading boring big documents. But like interacting, ideating,
(10:44):
talking it out, brainstorming people.
They're really into this, have alot going on.
We've got notes saying 40 tabs open and I'd say that's on your
laptop and probably in your brain at anyone time.
At least 47 tabs and probably have some half finished projects
or a bunch of things that you start in the middle of the night
(11:05):
or when inspiration strikes and then maybe run out of steam on
them. Very energizing, but sometimes
feels a bit all over the place. You're moving fast, you're doing
lots of things, have people to keep up.
You trust your gut, you hate being micromanaged.
You think rules are guidelines. So.
(11:25):
How might we? How might we work?
What are some do and don'ts? If anyone's like, oh, I know a
pioneer, what might you do and what might you not do when
working with a pioneer? I like these do's and don'ts.
So with this group, you want to tell them the what and you, you
want to give them the what and the why, but let them figure out
the how. And and that means like, you
(11:46):
know that person who will come in and say, do this thing, This
is the group that will be like, but why?
What are we trying to achieve with that?
I don't want to be dictated to how to do it.
You want to figure out what it is and then solve it.
Let them pitch ideas without shooting them down and bring
them in early when you need creative solutions.
So these are the problem solvers, Creativity, innovative,
(12:08):
blah blah blah. Don't though.
Get them involved in admin tasks.
That's that whole repetitive thing.
When you figured it out, you arebored out of your brain doing it
and don't ask. Have you thought through every
scenario? They haven't and they won't.
They don't. Don't expect this group to think
linear. Linear, linear, linear, or
(12:28):
perfectly format the emails. That's good.
That's a good one. I wonder if you fell into that
category now. OK, let's move on to Guardian.
This is a practical process driven person and of course this
is all putting people in a box, but it is helpful.
So just bear with bear with the process here.
Of the archetypes, you're the one who actually reads the terms
(12:50):
and conditions. You keep the team from walking
off a Cliff because you do spot the things that often others
miss. Change for change changes sake
makes you a little bit. If it's not broken, why are we
fixing it? Why are we kind of changing
things up here? You have a system for lots of
stuff. It can drive pioneers mental.
(13:13):
People rely on you to remember things, super dependable, detail
orientated. You follow through, you don't
let the balls drop. So in terms of what to do when
you're working with an A guardian who really appreciates
pragmatic process driven approach is give them advance
notice. These people need a little
(13:34):
warming up when you're switchingthings up.
Respect that they're what seems on the surface is over thinking
is actually risk management and taking in so in all sorts of
data points and letting them synthesize those.
Let them build the process and acknowledge that attention to
detail is important and can savepeople's asses.
Don't surprise them with a pivots real time pivots
(13:57):
surprise. Don't dismiss their concerns as
negativity or risk averseness. They're often seeing problems
that you know you haven't spotted.
Don't rush them through decisions just because you're
impatient. So this one is about respecting
the process driven individual who often the guardian will spot
things that other people don't. I love how the Pioneer and the
(14:19):
Guardian are an obvious nice chemistry, and I think this is
something you see all the time. There's the big ideas person and
then the person who follows thembehind, turning that into a
process that everyone can actually do or something that
becomes real. So I really like that you can
sort of see how those two work together.
We've got the driver, the outcome focus, decisive driver.
(14:42):
This group would rather make thedecision and adjust it then sit
in another meeting. About the meeting, the
iterators, they're like, let's just keep moving forward and
iterating and growing things. The small talk makes them want
to scream. Just tell them what they need.
They're competitive even when noone else knows they're
competing. They ask, what's the point of
(15:03):
this? More than most people find
comfortable. They love the five wise data and
logic trump feelings. If the numbers numbers say go,
then go. So with this group, be direct,
bring solutions, not just problems.
Show them the impact and let them drive.
Their bluntness or directness isn't personal, it's efficient.
So just it's cool to be direct with this group.
(15:26):
Don't waste their time with fluff, long winded explanations.
What is it dilly dallying? Don't take forever to make a
call. Don't expect them to manage
everyone's feelings in the process.
So this is an interesting one with the guardian because the
driver versus guardian. One group needs to have more
time to really think things through, consider all the risks,
the other ones wanting to move forward quickly.
(15:46):
So you can see, I feel like between these two, there's a
natural tension point there and the way of operating that, I
don't know. I feel like we've all seen this
player a lot in organizations. Yeah, yeah.
But no, that's fair. You know, one thing I noticed
though, what we didn't address in this podcast, and that's cool
because we can, we could always do others, but maybe how you
might temper some of those behaviors as these things, Maybe
(16:09):
we can chat about that briefly because you know, it's all good
and well to be like do and don't, but also we need to like
live and move and progress. So sometimes our own archetypes
that might come out actually need to be tempered a little bit
as well. But anyway.
Well, I feel like before we comeon to the last one, feel like
that's the intelligence and EQ line over top of this.
(16:31):
If you think about them as umbrellas over this.
So like you can feel that innately or that could be your
tendency, but you have control over this stuff.
So that may frustrate you that someone is moving slower or
moving faster, but you also can learn how to adapt to other
people and what's correct in different situations.
So I feel like the point of doing these is to go, yeah, this
(16:53):
might be my instinct, this mightbe my go to, but actually I have
the power and ability to adapt my behavior so that we
ultimately as a team get furtherand get better outcomes.
Especially if you know clearly what others are or that person
you work very closely with. I think I'm absolutely great.
OK, 4th and final one is called the integrator.
(17:14):
And this is the empathetic diplomatic.
So this is the person that can sense tension in a room before
anyone says anything can pick upon those cues.
This is the person that asks howhow's everyone feeling about
this and really means it. Conflict makes these people
uncomfortable. They'd rather find compromise.
They connect people, they remember personal details, they
(17:35):
build bridges. Often they can see all sides of
an argument which can make decision making exhausting
sometimes because they see multiple point of views.
And so with this one with dues is give them time to bring
people along. Value their emotional
intelligence as actual intelligence.
(17:56):
Let them facilitate when there'sconflict brewing.
Don't force them to choose sidesquickly.
Don't mistake their consensus building for weakness or being a
pushover. Don't ignore the people side of
decisions just because you want to move fast.
So there's a real people strength that comes through with
this one, which is clear. Yeah, they're kind of
(18:18):
interesting. I like the four, the basics of
four, because I feel like they do kind of broadly group you.
But I mean, like we said a few Times Now, they're not going to
get everything perfect, but you will probably identify strongly
with one or two. Both of us are two, a mix of
two. So you may find that there's a
little bit of a mix in there when you've done your test.
But yeah, it's it's it's, I feellike what I like about them is
(18:39):
that the fundamental worldview is so different.
And that means that when you're having conversations, we're
often talking parallel to each other in a way that is wildly
unproductive. So it's kind of nice to go,
yeah, when this happens, we're actually seeing very different
scenarios. Exactly.
OK, not sure what you got. What I actually did check mine
this morning because classic. What do they say?
(19:02):
Classic non details person. I'm a pioneer driver.
I was a combo of those who so big picture thinking, outcome
focused. Love it and I was the exact
opposite which was integrator guardian.
And so for me it's about diplomatic, which is very
Canadian and practical as a guardian.
So we are effectively the opposite, which is, ironically
(19:24):
probably why it works. Yeah, I don't even think it's
ironic. I think that's the and like when
one of the things, one of the things we really enjoyed about
doing this was that it really highlighted the causes of well,
some of the causes of tension between US and, and when you see
it in black and white, you go, of course that's what it is.
You care about this, I care about this.
(19:45):
And we are talking at cross purposes and and those
situations are relatively rare between us, but it is quite
funny to look and go Oh yeah, I also.
Thought was there anything aboutyour results?
That you disagreed with because I had a couple that I really was
like, oh, that's interesting. Only one.
Well, I would one. Yeah, I think the yeah, No, no,
(20:07):
no. I think there were just certain
questions that I might have. I wasn't sure of the answer,
like in my words person or numbers person.
I put words, but like equally I like numbers.
And so I didn't. And I don't like saying don't
know because you know who I don't like going don't know on
tests like this. And then the other thing was the
like I guardian, I wouldn't havebeen a guardian per SE as much
(20:31):
of A guardian 10 years ago in mycareer.
Like I was more of a driver and a risk taker and and a pioneer.
But I really find in this stage of life, I happen to be juggling
lots of balls. I'm quite good at being a
guardian. Maybe I've adapted to it through
raising a family. I have no idea.
But I'm definitely more of something in this stage of life.
(20:51):
But I wouldn't have seen myself in that at all 10 years ago.
So I think that though I would have had attributes of course of
order and process, Yeah. So I agree with it now, yes.
But I think these do these things can change.
Yeah. And I do think, yeah, I do think
they can change. I feel like for me, the things
(21:11):
that I felt like the questions, I agree.
I'm the hilariously we're the same.
We're not halfway between people.
We're like pick an answer. And there were some that I think
for both of us, I was like, oh, it's it's actually 5050 on the
line. But it was interesting that we
both got to the same outcomes for each other and ourselves.
I feel like the half finished projects thing is interesting
(21:32):
because in my life people often point to me as the person who
finishes everything while like things are finished.
So I was like, that's interesting.
And in the details focus, I'm like, I don't know too many
people who have more details focused than me.
It's just that maybe I don't like it as much.
So I thought those are really interesting that they like
really pointed out as things that I didn't like to do.
(21:53):
And I was like, but I suppose this is the box thing that I was
like, I don't think I yeah, I feel like I find it really hard
to think big picture without thedetails.
So I found that really interesting that yeah, to me
that was an oxymoron that you can do that.
But maybe that's what other people do.
Maybe there's maybe there's different sorts of details, who
knows, Possibly. But if it's details with the big
(22:16):
picture, maybe that's the thing as opposed to details with, I
don't know. I don't know.
But I yeah, the the half finished things that didn't
strike me as you, that doesn't feel like it unless you're
writing stuff at 2:00 AM that I'm not aware of.
I mean, I'm never awaited 2:00 AM either, so that's probably.
That's not true. That's not true.
I think the other thing about being competitive, because I
(22:37):
would have picked you as way more competitive than me, but
I'm fiercely competitive with myself.
So it's interesting that I suppose the definition of
competitive. I have extremely high standards
for myself and I'm never satisfied.
And then I'm like, I don't care about what other people are
doing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So interesting, so interesting. I think this is what we'll do is
(23:00):
we'll share again the link with this one if you want to try
others. We'll also share the 16
personalities. And then there's something
called the disk with, If no one's ever done that, there is a
free version of it. And I'll we'll
sharethatagain123test.com. So we encourage you to do it
with a business partner, your team, your manager, and share
the results. Because what it what it, what is
(23:22):
helpful in doing is kind of giving you each language that
first of all, you couldn't articulate about why you feel
strongly or why you operate in that way or think in that way,
but equally why there might be friction points.
Once in a while you can stop taking friction.
Personally, I think that was really powerful for us coming
out of it. If and when we do disagree, we
(23:43):
have language where we can just say, oh, this is a chemistry
thing. Rather than continuing to go
down a rabbit hole of disagreement or get hurt
feelings, it feels like we can easily just say this is a
chemistry thing. We can chalk it up to just
simply different styles and adjust from there or move on.
Makes us aware of our own blind spots.
And I think it's also interesting if you are a team
(24:08):
where everyone is a driver, there are probably some, what
would it be attributes and strengths that are missing as
part of that? Yeah.
Do you have anything you've changed like because when I look
through the do's and don'ts, there's definitely some things
that I have clocked about thingsthat I've changed over the years
to adapt to people. And I was, yeah.
(24:28):
Do you have any that you come tomind immediately?
I'm happy to share mine first ifyou want a minute.
Yeah, go on, you share. Yours is your.
Guardian. Yeah.
Go on. I need a minute.
I need a minute. Go on.
What do you want? I.
Think one of the, I've mentionedit before on the podcast before
where that was the first piece of feedback I think you ever
gave me as I need a minute to think.
And so now I'm quite often same with Kyla.
(24:49):
I'll say here's what I'm thinking and then just like,
leave it and walk out or do whatever and just leave.
Because I think Kyla's probably quite a guardian as well.
So it's it's interesting to see how that like ties in.
Weirdly, she's probably the mostdirect person I know, but in a
very calm way. So like that that she's managed
that really nicely. Small talk and the fluff at the
(25:12):
beginning of emails. I really hate doing small talk
because I'm a driver. I'm like, how do I use this
small talk to drive towards a much more interesting
conversation? But with fluff at the beginning
of emails, I'm like, suck it up and do it.
And then I've put in place toolsfor things like remembering
people's names and information about them.
My brain just does not remember it.
(25:33):
So I jot that down in a place sothat I can quickly refer to it.
Like I'll remember it when I seeit.
It's just like my brain does nothave that Rolodex internally.
So I use tools to make sure thatit doesn't feel like I've
forgotten someone when I haven't.
It's just my brain doesn't do itthe same way that maybe someone
who is a what is an integrator would like you and Rach, who's
(25:57):
one of our experts, she would just like she'll remember
everything about everyone all the time.
And I'm like my practice. Yeah, yeah, no, that's right.
I think for me, I'd probably be forced to go decision making
faster than I normally would have because I do genuinely see
multiple sides. And quite often when I'm with
the driver and there's, you know, I'm like, it's not a hill
(26:19):
to die on. I'll be tipped into one side and
I just go with it like it's not important it even though I can
see another side and another route possibly.
So I know I've had to flex that a little bit.
I don't, I don't, I don't, I can't think of anything else top
of mind. It's a great question though,
because I think again, all of these when, when I in terms of
(26:39):
that EQ piece of emotional quotient and needing to overlay
that we still have to all navigate in an environment that
isn't just built for us and our personality types in mind.
I think they're probably all, all sorts of things that I've
had to do and likely people listening as well.
So yeah, hopefully this was enlightening for most.
We'd love to hear from everyone actually on this one.
(27:01):
Might just drop a poll as to what are you inside?
I don't know if it shows up in Apple, but certainly in Spotify.
I think there's a little question that will say what
business chemistry archetype or whatever are you?
And we'd love to hear from you on this one because it would be
great to hear who's listening. Is there a common theme?
Probably not, but curious. It could actually be a fun thing
(27:22):
to do with power suitors too. So because I like it as a almost
part of a community introductionof this is who I am or this is
how I operate in a really nice way to kind of go, Oh, OK, I
can, I can kind of understand what, what it's almost like what
a lot of people are now doing onthe Internet and teams and
slacks channels saying this is how I like to be communicated
with. This is how I don't.
(27:43):
So don't interrupt me halfway through something or, you know,
don't call me, just text me. It's sort of another one of
those layers that just helps us go, Oh, I get you a bit more and
it's just a nice shortcut. Totally.
Thanks, everyone. Check out powersuit.com and
again, just let us know where you landed on this and we'll
catch you all next time. Bye.
Welcome to Power Up, the podcastthat uncovers the unique
challenges women leaders face today.
Join your hosts Nat and Kristen as we dive into the tough topics
and provide actionable insights you can apply right now.
Don't forget to hit subscribe soyou don't miss any episodes.
(00:38):
My favorite personality test was1.
I did, gosh, probably like 30 years ago with some of my best
friends, and it was the bird 1. So you're like an owl or a
Peacock or a dove. And I really loved it.
And it reminded me when we did another one recently how these
tools are so helpful for helpingus realize things about
(01:00):
ourselves and others. And that is also.
Kind of a big. Industry, right?
Yeah. That can I first ask what bird
were you? I was a eagle Peacock.
I totally get the Peacock thing.Not everywhere we go not needs
claps for everything she does. Yeah, we have to.
(01:23):
So I get the I get the actually and I get the eagle thing, the
scanning the above everything, the checking it opportunities
and above. I love it.
It's great. Yeah, the we're.
Actually really good. What I did learn during it is I
am not a fan of a dove. I suppose eagles eat doves.
Doves are your classic peacekeepers.
However, one of my besties is a dove, and she's the only dove
(01:46):
that I've ever been able to really connect with because I
usually really struggle with people who are conflict avoidant
in the moment and therefore create a lot more conflict over
time because they, like, pretendeverything's fine when it's not.
And yeah, now I've realized, like, it's funny how, yeah, a
bird can, you know, but direct. That's so funny.
(02:09):
Back to original point, questionis that yes, this is a they're
everywhere personality tests. They are a billion dollar
industry and companies pay good money to understand why their
employees can't get along or to test people as they come into
their organization. And my first personality tests
(02:31):
that comes to mind was actually in New Zealand.
And I remember moving here and it being all the rage.
And I feel like I had to, I was applying for jobs here and I
feel like I had to take all these IQ slash personality
tests. And I found it really
frustrating. I was like, I have to spend all
this investment and all this time and I remember multiple
interviews and tests and I was like, Oh my gosh, this isn't for
(02:53):
the CEO role people. But you know, I've been here for
some time now. It is normalized.
I'm not suggesting they're not done overseas because of course
they are, but that was my first experience was here in New
Zealand, which was really funny,but.
Anyway may have arrived at the peak personality test time
because I know for to be fear dead warp being hide into CEO
(03:14):
roles, but his last few he said I learned how to game like he
said like everyone was using thesame 1.
So you're like what person do you want?
OK, great. I think everybody.
Said it was really. Easy to like kind of understand
what people are looking for whenyou did so many of them all the
time. I know.
And Speaking of, they probably, I didn't look at the history of
(03:34):
where they came from, but it makes sense to me that military
CIA, because at the time, this peak personality time when we
were leaving Canada for New Zealand, I had a friend that was
being interviewed into the, I don't know what it's called, the
Secret Service of Canada. And she told me about some of
the tests they were putting her through.
It was incredible. So they're they're likely
there's a history there. But anyway.
(03:57):
We did, which is the one we did a couple of years ago back at
Hedge and we found out that three out of four of us had that
was the like E and TJ one or whatever it is, the the all
those different leaders and thatthree out of four of us had a
particular one in common. That meant that we were
methodical, that we would project plan with step by step
through in one was a really do abig bunch of stuff at the start,
(04:19):
sort of stop and get lost in themiddle and then race to the
finish and that we all win. Now we get it.
Well, that was that was the MyerBriggs from what I recall.
And many people will know that. But I think there's also the 16
personalities that is a a more friendly take on it.
And they even have things like, I think I remember I'm Michelle
(04:42):
Obama as part of my 16 personalities, which is really.
Just I was brick. Oh, Oh my gosh, no wonder we're
together and anyway that I thinkso Myersburg 16 personalities
and the one that I recall being formative once I finally did get
a job in New Zealand was disk and I came out hardcore D as, as
(05:03):
you might imagine, a little bit towards.
Wait, what does D stand for? Dominant and then I is kind of
inspiration storyteller. So I was kind of hardcore D
towards the eye and I always wondered why I wasn't getting
along with my, with the CTO at the time.
And it's because he was the exact opposite of the disk,
(05:23):
which was, you know, very different way of navigating and
seeing the world. So very, I, I think they are
useful in how you work with others, understanding your
style, maybe where conflict can arise, how you'll clash any gaps
and then what you can do about it, which I think is.
Fabulous. I completely agree.
Yeah, yeah. We'd always wondered, though not
(05:44):
on a given day, like if we were to take a test now and then
tomorrow or maybe in two weeks, how much do you think it
changes? I don't know if it changes that
quickly, but I do think it changes like if you're in an
organization and I think we've seen this a lot over the last
couple of years where they may have been really operational and
(06:05):
you don't know what the strategyis and you don't know where it's
hitting and it feels everything's uncertain.
I suspect you start to value andprioritize certainty and
strategy and a little bit more. So I think there is contextual
like you do see it with people and then I think over time as
you get more experience in life and work, I suspect that also
(06:27):
probably changes a bit. But my understanding is and like
all of these things, there's science based, but you know,
nature, nurture, etcetera, is that most of the time, and this
is what I find so fascinating about them, you are answering
quite quickly. And every time I answer, I'm
like these normally are pretty obvious answers.
(06:48):
You find out just how fundamentally different everyone
is because they gave a very different answers.
I love it. Yeah, I I agree and I do think
seasons of life to your point, you can shift taking because I
know when I were the one we're going to chat about today is
called the business chemistry one and we'd really encourage
people to take it. It's going to be in the show
(07:09):
notes. It's free to take gosh, maybe 5
minutes and this one is a great one.
If you are in business with someone, working closely with
someone, of course, in working in a really tight team
environment where you need to navigate other people and their
decisions and their communication styles a lot.
This is a great one to take. We love the strengths one for
(07:31):
looking at our individual strengths and personal brands,
but this one in particular is actually about the chemistry you
might have with a business partner or a close colleague or
even your manager actually for that or or your team member for
that matter. But, but I think different
seasons. When I re redid the test last
night, because I couldn't remember which order mine came
(07:53):
in, I thought I would have answered this very differently
15 years ago. So I I think that changes as
well, not every question, but some of them.
So anyway, here we go. Should we talk business
chemistry? And what we're going to do is
take everyone through the four, I don't know, archetypes of this
test. We're not looking to put people
(08:14):
in a box. But as we describe these 4
archetypes, we'd love for you togo, oh, I think that's me.
Do you see yourself in them? And then as we describe these
archetypes, do you see close colleagues or business partners
in these archetypes as we read through them?
That's the point of this exercise.
Well, the the thing that is quite interesting about this,
two things. One, if you are listening in a
(08:34):
place that you can go do it now,I would say pause and go do it
now. It's like a 5 minute 5.
It's like 20 questions. It's not much.
The second thing I love about this one is like you say, it's
the chemistry, it's the interaction.
So it's actually designed to notjust to do on yourself, but to
do on the people around you, which therefore helps you
understand like, oh, when I do this, they interpret it like
(08:56):
that. Or when they do this, it
actually means this and it really helps you get out of your
own way of thinking and acting and really looking at the people
around you. So unlike a lot of other
personality tiers, I think the sun that the interactivity of it
and how it informs how you communicate and behave around
other people, I think is really valuable.
But while I think yes, please pick and think about who you
(09:18):
might be, do the test. Because often we have an idea of
who we are and who other people are.
And doing the test is a helpful way of maybe challenging that
bias as well. Because I think, I think if I
read these descriptions, I probably would have picked us
both from them. But I think it was nice to come
in cold and find out what they were through doing the test and
(09:41):
then kind of going, oh, what does that mean?
Agreed. Great call out.
So we're not going to share whatwe are immediately.
Let's go through all four and then we can kind of reveal what
what our test results were. But I think that we yeah, that
we then did them on each other and celebration.
It was right on all accounts like our self-awareness and
(10:01):
awareness of others was really nicely surprising.
So anyway, we'll get to that. Michelle Obama, so we do know.
That's true. OK, now take it.
Take it away with the first one.We have the pioneer, the risk
taker, big picture thinker. So this person is the first to
volunteer for projects, for new things.
(10:21):
They get bored easily it seems once the exciting bit is done.
But I presume I'm reading some notes.
But I think it's also when they know something like they're not
a like I want to stick and do the same thing over and over
again. Once I've learned it, I'm moving
on to the next thing. Meetings for meetings sake.
Reading boring big documents. But like interacting, ideating,
(10:44):
talking it out, brainstorming people.
They're really into this, have alot going on.
We've got notes saying 40 tabs open and I'd say that's on your
laptop and probably in your brain at anyone time.
At least 47 tabs and probably have some half finished projects
or a bunch of things that you start in the middle of the night
(11:05):
or when inspiration strikes and then maybe run out of steam on
them. Very energizing, but sometimes
feels a bit all over the place. You're moving fast, you're doing
lots of things, have people to keep up.
You trust your gut, you hate being micromanaged.
You think rules are guidelines. So.
(11:25):
How might we? How might we work?
What are some do and don'ts? If anyone's like, oh, I know a
pioneer, what might you do and what might you not do when
working with a pioneer? I like these do's and don'ts.
So with this group, you want to tell them the what and you, you
want to give them the what and the why, but let them figure out
the how. And and that means like, you
(11:46):
know that person who will come in and say, do this thing, This
is the group that will be like, but why?
What are we trying to achieve with that?
I don't want to be dictated to how to do it.
You want to figure out what it is and then solve it.
Let them pitch ideas without shooting them down and bring
them in early when you need creative solutions.
So these are the problem solvers, Creativity, innovative,
(12:08):
blah blah blah. Don't though.
Get them involved in admin tasks.
That's that whole repetitive thing.
When you figured it out, you arebored out of your brain doing it
and don't ask. Have you thought through every
scenario? They haven't and they won't.
They don't. Don't expect this group to think
linear. Linear, linear, linear, or
(12:28):
perfectly format the emails. That's good.
That's a good one. I wonder if you fell into that
category now. OK, let's move on to Guardian.
This is a practical process driven person and of course this
is all putting people in a box, but it is helpful.
So just bear with bear with the process here.
Of the archetypes, you're the one who actually reads the terms
(12:50):
and conditions. You keep the team from walking
off a Cliff because you do spot the things that often others
miss. Change for change changes sake
makes you a little bit. If it's not broken, why are we
fixing it? Why are we kind of changing
things up here? You have a system for lots of
stuff. It can drive pioneers mental.
(13:13):
People rely on you to remember things, super dependable, detail
orientated. You follow through, you don't
let the balls drop. So in terms of what to do when
you're working with an A guardian who really appreciates
pragmatic process driven approach is give them advance
notice. These people need a little
(13:34):
warming up when you're switchingthings up.
Respect that they're what seems on the surface is over thinking
is actually risk management and taking in so in all sorts of
data points and letting them synthesize those.
Let them build the process and acknowledge that attention to
detail is important and can savepeople's asses.
Don't surprise them with a pivots real time pivots
(13:57):
surprise. Don't dismiss their concerns as
negativity or risk averseness. They're often seeing problems
that you know you haven't spotted.
Don't rush them through decisions just because you're
impatient. So this one is about respecting
the process driven individual who often the guardian will spot
things that other people don't. I love how the Pioneer and the
(14:19):
Guardian are an obvious nice chemistry, and I think this is
something you see all the time. There's the big ideas person and
then the person who follows thembehind, turning that into a
process that everyone can actually do or something that
becomes real. So I really like that you can
sort of see how those two work together.
We've got the driver, the outcome focus, decisive driver.
(14:42):
This group would rather make thedecision and adjust it then sit
in another meeting. About the meeting, the
iterators, they're like, let's just keep moving forward and
iterating and growing things. The small talk makes them want
to scream. Just tell them what they need.
They're competitive even when noone else knows they're
competing. They ask, what's the point of
(15:03):
this? More than most people find
comfortable. They love the five wise data and
logic trump feelings. If the numbers numbers say go,
then go. So with this group, be direct,
bring solutions, not just problems.
Show them the impact and let them drive.
Their bluntness or directness isn't personal, it's efficient.
So just it's cool to be direct with this group.
(15:26):
Don't waste their time with fluff, long winded explanations.
What is it dilly dallying? Don't take forever to make a
call. Don't expect them to manage
everyone's feelings in the process.
So this is an interesting one with the guardian because the
driver versus guardian. One group needs to have more
time to really think things through, consider all the risks,
the other ones wanting to move forward quickly.
(15:46):
So you can see, I feel like between these two, there's a
natural tension point there and the way of operating that, I
don't know. I feel like we've all seen this
player a lot in organizations. Yeah, yeah.
But no, that's fair. You know, one thing I noticed
though, what we didn't address in this podcast, and that's cool
because we can, we could always do others, but maybe how you
might temper some of those behaviors as these things, Maybe
(16:09):
we can chat about that briefly because you know, it's all good
and well to be like do and don't, but also we need to like
live and move and progress. So sometimes our own archetypes
that might come out actually need to be tempered a little bit
as well. But anyway.
Well, I feel like before we comeon to the last one, feel like
that's the intelligence and EQ line over top of this.
(16:31):
If you think about them as umbrellas over this.
So like you can feel that innately or that could be your
tendency, but you have control over this stuff.
So that may frustrate you that someone is moving slower or
moving faster, but you also can learn how to adapt to other
people and what's correct in different situations.
So I feel like the point of doing these is to go, yeah, this
(16:53):
might be my instinct, this mightbe my go to, but actually I have
the power and ability to adapt my behavior so that we
ultimately as a team get furtherand get better outcomes.
Especially if you know clearly what others are or that person
you work very closely with. I think I'm absolutely great.
OK, 4th and final one is called the integrator.
(17:14):
And this is the empathetic diplomatic.
So this is the person that can sense tension in a room before
anyone says anything can pick upon those cues.
This is the person that asks howhow's everyone feeling about
this and really means it. Conflict makes these people
uncomfortable. They'd rather find compromise.
They connect people, they remember personal details, they
(17:35):
build bridges. Often they can see all sides of
an argument which can make decision making exhausting
sometimes because they see multiple point of views.
And so with this one with dues is give them time to bring
people along. Value their emotional
intelligence as actual intelligence.
(17:56):
Let them facilitate when there'sconflict brewing.
Don't force them to choose sidesquickly.
Don't mistake their consensus building for weakness or being a
pushover. Don't ignore the people side of
decisions just because you want to move fast.
So there's a real people strength that comes through with
this one, which is clear. Yeah, they're kind of
(18:18):
interesting. I like the four, the basics of
four, because I feel like they do kind of broadly group you.
But I mean, like we said a few Times Now, they're not going to
get everything perfect, but you will probably identify strongly
with one or two. Both of us are two, a mix of
two. So you may find that there's a
little bit of a mix in there when you've done your test.
But yeah, it's it's it's, I feellike what I like about them is
(18:39):
that the fundamental worldview is so different.
And that means that when you're having conversations, we're
often talking parallel to each other in a way that is wildly
unproductive. So it's kind of nice to go,
yeah, when this happens, we're actually seeing very different
scenarios. Exactly.
OK, not sure what you got. What I actually did check mine
this morning because classic. What do they say?
(19:02):
Classic non details person. I'm a pioneer driver.
I was a combo of those who so big picture thinking, outcome
focused. Love it and I was the exact
opposite which was integrator guardian.
And so for me it's about diplomatic, which is very
Canadian and practical as a guardian.
So we are effectively the opposite, which is, ironically
(19:24):
probably why it works. Yeah, I don't even think it's
ironic. I think that's the and like when
one of the things, one of the things we really enjoyed about
doing this was that it really highlighted the causes of well,
some of the causes of tension between US and, and when you see
it in black and white, you go, of course that's what it is.
You care about this, I care about this.
(19:45):
And we are talking at cross purposes and and those
situations are relatively rare between us, but it is quite
funny to look and go Oh yeah, I also.
Thought was there anything aboutyour results?
That you disagreed with because I had a couple that I really was
like, oh, that's interesting. Only one.
Well, I would one. Yeah, I think the yeah, No, no,
(20:07):
no. I think there were just certain
questions that I might have. I wasn't sure of the answer,
like in my words person or numbers person.
I put words, but like equally I like numbers.
And so I didn't. And I don't like saying don't
know because you know who I don't like going don't know on
tests like this. And then the other thing was the
like I guardian, I wouldn't havebeen a guardian per SE as much
(20:31):
of A guardian 10 years ago in mycareer.
Like I was more of a driver and a risk taker and and a pioneer.
But I really find in this stage of life, I happen to be juggling
lots of balls. I'm quite good at being a
guardian. Maybe I've adapted to it through
raising a family. I have no idea.
But I'm definitely more of something in this stage of life.
(20:51):
But I wouldn't have seen myself in that at all 10 years ago.
So I think that though I would have had attributes of course of
order and process, Yeah. So I agree with it now, yes.
But I think these do these things can change.
Yeah. And I do think, yeah, I do think
they can change. I feel like for me, the things
(21:11):
that I felt like the questions, I agree.
I'm the hilariously we're the same.
We're not halfway between people.
We're like pick an answer. And there were some that I think
for both of us, I was like, oh, it's it's actually 5050 on the
line. But it was interesting that we
both got to the same outcomes for each other and ourselves.
I feel like the half finished projects thing is interesting
(21:32):
because in my life people often point to me as the person who
finishes everything while like things are finished.
So I was like, that's interesting.
And in the details focus, I'm like, I don't know too many
people who have more details focused than me.
It's just that maybe I don't like it as much.
So I thought those are really interesting that they like
really pointed out as things that I didn't like to do.
(21:53):
And I was like, but I suppose this is the box thing that I was
like, I don't think I yeah, I feel like I find it really hard
to think big picture without thedetails.
So I found that really interesting that yeah, to me
that was an oxymoron that you can do that.
But maybe that's what other people do.
Maybe there's maybe there's different sorts of details, who
knows, Possibly. But if it's details with the big
(22:16):
picture, maybe that's the thing as opposed to details with, I
don't know. I don't know.
But I yeah, the the half finished things that didn't
strike me as you, that doesn't feel like it unless you're
writing stuff at 2:00 AM that I'm not aware of.
I mean, I'm never awaited 2:00 AM either, so that's probably.
That's not true. That's not true.
I think the other thing about being competitive, because I
(22:37):
would have picked you as way more competitive than me, but
I'm fiercely competitive with myself.
So it's interesting that I suppose the definition of
competitive. I have extremely high standards
for myself and I'm never satisfied.
And then I'm like, I don't care about what other people are
doing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So interesting, so interesting. I think this is what we'll do is
(23:00):
we'll share again the link with this one if you want to try
others. We'll also share the 16
personalities. And then there's something
called the disk with, If no one's ever done that, there is a
free version of it. And I'll we'll
sharethatagain123test.com. So we encourage you to do it
with a business partner, your team, your manager, and share
the results. Because what it what it, what is
(23:22):
helpful in doing is kind of giving you each language that
first of all, you couldn't articulate about why you feel
strongly or why you operate in that way or think in that way,
but equally why there might be friction points.
Once in a while you can stop taking friction.
Personally, I think that was really powerful for us coming
out of it. If and when we do disagree, we
(23:43):
have language where we can just say, oh, this is a chemistry
thing. Rather than continuing to go
down a rabbit hole of disagreement or get hurt
feelings, it feels like we can easily just say this is a
chemistry thing. We can chalk it up to just
simply different styles and adjust from there or move on.
Makes us aware of our own blind spots.
And I think it's also interesting if you are a team
(24:08):
where everyone is a driver, there are probably some, what
would it be attributes and strengths that are missing as
part of that? Yeah.
Do you have anything you've changed like because when I look
through the do's and don'ts, there's definitely some things
that I have clocked about thingsthat I've changed over the years
to adapt to people. And I was, yeah.
(24:28):
Do you have any that you come tomind immediately?
I'm happy to share mine first ifyou want a minute.
Yeah, go on, you share. Yours is your.
Guardian. Yeah.
Go on. I need a minute.
I need a minute. Go on.
What do you want? I.
Think one of the, I've mentionedit before on the podcast before
where that was the first piece of feedback I think you ever
gave me as I need a minute to think.
And so now I'm quite often same with Kyla.
(24:49):
I'll say here's what I'm thinking and then just like,
leave it and walk out or do whatever and just leave.
Because I think Kyla's probably quite a guardian as well.
So it's it's interesting to see how that like ties in.
Weirdly, she's probably the mostdirect person I know, but in a
very calm way. So like that that she's managed
that really nicely. Small talk and the fluff at the
(25:12):
beginning of emails. I really hate doing small talk
because I'm a driver. I'm like, how do I use this
small talk to drive towards a much more interesting
conversation? But with fluff at the beginning
of emails, I'm like, suck it up and do it.
And then I've put in place toolsfor things like remembering
people's names and information about them.
My brain just does not remember it.
(25:33):
So I jot that down in a place sothat I can quickly refer to it.
Like I'll remember it when I seeit.
It's just like my brain does nothave that Rolodex internally.
So I use tools to make sure thatit doesn't feel like I've
forgotten someone when I haven't.
It's just my brain doesn't do itthe same way that maybe someone
who is a what is an integrator would like you and Rach, who's
(25:57):
one of our experts, she would just like she'll remember
everything about everyone all the time.
And I'm like my practice. Yeah, yeah, no, that's right.
I think for me, I'd probably be forced to go decision making
faster than I normally would have because I do genuinely see
multiple sides. And quite often when I'm with
the driver and there's, you know, I'm like, it's not a hill
(26:19):
to die on. I'll be tipped into one side and
I just go with it like it's not important it even though I can
see another side and another route possibly.
So I know I've had to flex that a little bit.
I don't, I don't, I don't, I can't think of anything else top
of mind. It's a great question though,
because I think again, all of these when, when I in terms of
(26:39):
that EQ piece of emotional quotient and needing to overlay
that we still have to all navigate in an environment that
isn't just built for us and our personality types in mind.
I think they're probably all, all sorts of things that I've
had to do and likely people listening as well.
So yeah, hopefully this was enlightening for most.
We'd love to hear from everyone actually on this one.
(27:01):
Might just drop a poll as to what are you inside?
I don't know if it shows up in Apple, but certainly in Spotify.
I think there's a little question that will say what
business chemistry archetype or whatever are you?
And we'd love to hear from you on this one because it would be
great to hear who's listening. Is there a common theme?
Probably not, but curious. It could actually be a fun thing
(27:22):
to do with power suitors too. So because I like it as a almost
part of a community introductionof this is who I am or this is
how I operate in a really nice way to kind of go, Oh, OK, I
can, I can kind of understand what, what it's almost like what
a lot of people are now doing onthe Internet and teams and
slacks channels saying this is how I like to be communicated
with. This is how I don't.
(27:43):
So don't interrupt me halfway through something or, you know,
don't call me, just text me. It's sort of another one of
those layers that just helps us go, Oh, I get you a bit more and
it's just a nice shortcut. Totally.
Thanks, everyone. Check out powersuit.com and
again, just let us know where you landed on this and we'll
catch you all next time. Bye.
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