April 20, 2026 • 29 mins
Nat and Kristen get into why so many women find themselves giving, giving, giving - and getting very little back. They break down a ‘relationship bank account’ theory (deposits, withdrawals, and who's quietly draining your savings), why being the reliable, accommodating one can seriously backfire, and how culture plays a bigger role than you'd think. Plus - the sneaky ways you might accidentally be the withdrawer without realising it - and when to stop investing in a one-sided relationship.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:05):
Welcome to Power Up, the podcastthat uncovers the unique
challenges women leaders face today.
Join your hosts Nat and Kristen as we dive into the tough topics
and provide actionable insights you can apply right now.
Don't forget to hit subscribe soyou don't miss any episodes.
(00:38):
We have been doing our International Women's Day month
for the last several weeks and have been running a lot of
workshops. And one of the things that one
of the, I suppose, little light bulb moments for us is when we
talk about energy and the way webuild relationships and the
dynamics and relationships and how depending on your
(01:00):
background, the way you were raised, your culture, there are
a lot of givers. There are people who spend a lot
of time depositing, what we'd say depositing into their
relationships, really investing in relationships, being really
generous with their time, with their knowledge, with their
connections. But a big theme we came across
as a lot of those relations, nota lot of them, but a fear number
(01:22):
of them were investing in relationships which felt like a
one way St. the other person wastaking, but with without
reciprocating that same level ofinvestment or energy.
So we just thought at least talkabout that today.
It was interesting that I had todig to find this specific talk
topic a little bit. And then when I reflected a
(01:43):
little bit, I thought, Oh yeah, that seemed to come up.
And what I mean by that is what was asked of us as we navigated
a bunch of sessions with hundreds of women.
Where can you do more on courageous conversations?
And then when I started asking, well, what are the types of
conversations you had? What they would often result in
(02:04):
my asking them is them going, oh, well, I'm too accommodating
and I'm giving too much and I volunteer too much and I need to
stop. Like that's what there are
courageous conversations that need to happen all the time, of
course, and we will deal with that.
But for this one, it felt like we are our own worst enemy and
that we have been socialized to be accommodating, especially now
(02:28):
at a layer culturally. Obviously we've been navigating
an incredibly diverse rooms and and obviously more collective
and collaborative communities like give, give, give, like we
do things together and you neversay no.
But when I kind of really pushedleaned into them one and
courageous conversations, it waslike a realization of like, Oh,
(02:51):
I need to maybe check my behavior and stop putting my
hand up for every single little thing.
Yeah, and it's and it's, it's interesting.
And I think culture plays a realrole here.
And when you think about workplaces, most of them are
embedded in a highly individualistic Western culture.
And if looking at tech companiescan be at the extreme end of
(03:14):
this. And we've even seen
organizations where performance is measured down to the
individual and there's very little recognition of how well
we work in a team. It's almost like competition
internally. And then you take people who
come from backgrounds where everyone chips in and it's just
you're not seen as individuals competing against each other.
You're just coming together to do stuff stuff.
(03:35):
So when you plunk someone from that culture into an
organization that potentially ismore full of people who are sort
of like, how do I get myself where I want to go?
It can create a lot of confusionand it can lead to some people
really exhausting themselves giving.
But also I think you're right with that sort of, it's easy to
(03:55):
say it's almost like why we run the five wise as people kind of
come up with a solution and phrase it as a problem.
Like, I need to have more courageous conversations, but
the underlying problem is so that I find myself bending over
backwards so all these people who aren't giving back.
And there's lots of ways to solve for that.
There's lots of ways we can adapt our behavior to not leave
ourselves exhausted and to make sure that the relationships
(04:17):
we're building, especially in a work context, are respectful and
people do appreciate the and andacknowledge the energy and
effort we put into them. Yeah.
And I, I remember a conversationI had with ACEO and then also
just as leaders navigating all of our past workplaces, when you
needed something done, you thought of the most reliable,
(04:39):
trustworthy person to do it. And it often is the person that
is accommodating, wants growth, wants stretch, they're going to,
they're going to see it as an opportunity and then, you know,
they're just going to do it. And I think there's also on the
flip side, we have to be a little bit careful of equally
opening up a bit of a conversation about what can we
de de prioritize as a result of this.
(05:00):
You know, this is an important piece of work and you know,
because quite often you do end up going to those people that
are accommodating because they rock.
But it has to be, you know, a thing where the accommodating
person of the person who has been socialized to be a team
player and a good girl and so helpful, But you know, needs to
be able to kind of recognize to have the let's let's be a bit
(05:22):
careful here. When timelines and you know
we'll go, we'll go into some more details there, but the
asker a good time to make a check on this as we chat through
this. Yeah, you are maybe taking a
little bit more from your relationships.
This is where I think delegationgets a bad name amongst a lot of
power suitors is that we all know people who, and I don't
even think it should be called delegation, but they'd say I'm a
(05:44):
great delegator, but what they actually do is just palm stuff
off. And I think a really simple
example of that is the people who just do the blind forward.
They don't add anything. They're just like palmed off to
someone else. And if you are a giver or a
collective contributor up against a person who's very
happy flicking things off at anyone else, it can create this
(06:04):
really problematic dynamic. I just I had I threw up a a
link, sorry, I threw up a poll on LinkedIn just about thinking
about one key relationship in your life, someone that you need
on side. So for us in the past, it would
have been a lawyer or someone inthe risk space or you know,
someone that you actually need on side and then just to sit and
(06:26):
think, are you currently a depositor?
Like, are you really giving a lot, maybe too much to that
relationship? Is it landing in the right way?
Is that the right thing that you're depositing or are you
withdrawing? Like you actually asking too
much too frequently from this person?
So I put out a poll and while I find it, I just thought not.
(06:47):
Do you want to quickly go over, I don't know, any stories or
insights from like that, this concept of bank balance, maybe
just run over that. Yeah, we.
Can do a very quick overview. So we like an analogy because I
think when you talk about thingslike relationships and investing
in your relationship and social capital and all these words, it
can feel very like vague, like what?
I don't know how to measure that.
(07:08):
I don't know if I And it sort ofbecomes big and hard and we sort
of go, yeah, I'm good at relationships that end.
So we have created this bank account analogy basically
thinking of every bank account as a joint savings account.
And the, and the balance is impacted by how much you both
deposit, how much you both withdraw or how often you're
depositing and withdrawing and the amounts you're depositing
(07:31):
withdrawing. And it just kind of takes this
concept of relationships and investing in relationships away
from kind of this theoretical, weird, I don't know, eerie fairy
topic into a, I can actually somewhat track and measure the
types of things that I'm doing in my relationships.
And being much more aware of where we are adding and where we
are withdrawing and even just asa starting point, that can be
(07:55):
really, really beneficial because I was digging into this
for an upcoming newsletter. But we have a real bias humans
do to love ourselves and to think we're great.
So things like most 90% of drivers will say they're above
average in terms of driving. So there's some really
interesting psychology around this around how we are very good
at clinging to evidence of how great we are and discarding
(08:17):
evidence of how not great we are.
So the driving example, you know, there's people who are
like, I'm so great. Look at me driving very Rd.
ragey if anyone else makes a mistake and then blissfully
unaware of all the times they forget to go at the red light,
at the green light because they're checking their phone or
all the little Dings they've gotor whatever else it might be.
And I think it plays into this alittle bit.
And, and and it plays in becausewe're all very good at thinking
(08:39):
about all the great stuff we do in relationships and what we've
added, but we sometimes don't pay attention to the stuff that
we might be withdrawing from relationships or some of the
poor habits that were in. So yeah, this exercise in this
workshop, we go quite deep in itto help people really start to
understand where they sit in these key dynamics and and maybe
uncover some blind spots on where they might be making some
(09:02):
unconscious or accidental withdrawals.
But also and what came out of itas well as to get really clear
on when should you stop investing in a relationship?
When are you investing a lot in finding that actually the other
side is not kind of coming to the party?
I think what's really interesting is this session, the
session we've been delivering isactually was born from a mini
(09:22):
master class in power suit, which is available on demand.
And it's almost like we married that social capital mini master
class with an energy one we've been doing because actually they
go hand in hand and that you're giving, giving, giving your
energy is totally depleted. And people for the most part are
really happy to take and, and may not notice it could be a
(09:45):
blind spot. So just quickly looking at
LinkedIn, it is a small sample size because I've only just put
it up, you know, 45 minutes ago.However, however, 2/3 said with
a key relationship in their workplace with someone that they
need on side, they've been depositing far too much.
So I just think we should maybe chat to those 2/3 right now and
give a couple options about how might you rebalance it or if you
(10:07):
have to say something, how mightyou say something.
So let's chat to the the 2/3 majority, shall we?
Yeah, well. Let's start with depositing too
much, because if you were depositing a lot and it's not
being acknowledged or valued, then maybe you're depositing the
wrong thing. You might be depositing the
wrong currency. So do you want to talk?
Yeah. Do you want to share some
examples of where that might come into play?
(10:30):
Yeah, you're probably depositingyen.
We probably don't want to be depositing American dollars
right now or crypto. But what what do, I don't know
what currencies are really strong at the moment, Probably
China or something. But anyway, so we need to yeah,
it's all about being strategic and kind of of the what we
highlighted was when you give something it actually there are
(10:52):
a few rules #1 it should be timebound, like if someone asks and.
And when I say give, it could even be like you are offering,
you are saying yes to something that is coming across your lap.
But quite often that can be timebound.
So someone might be like, hey, do you have a quick SEC to run
these numbers for me or to take a look at this thing or to help
me not this through and or I'm stuck on this thing.
(11:13):
Can you help? It might just be something like
I've got 10 minutes to help you now or later or tomorrow.
So it's actually putting a bookend of a time like this.
My time is precious. I value my time.
And I happen to have this sliverthat I can help you out with.
And that's better than nothing. And it's really signaling that
(11:34):
you value your time. But Yep, you're happy to help at
this specific time. And so I love this concept of
time, time bound. And then the other thing is kind
of thinking about things that you give that don't expend a lot
of energy. So that can be things like using
your superpowers, your strengths.
If you're really good at not, you know, analytics or
(11:54):
something, you might just be quickly review their work and
maybe you might be able to spot the mistake or you could double
check those figures. Or if you are a collector of
people and a super connector, you might go, Oh yeah, let me
introduce you to someone who might know more about this or
whatever. Like the point is, is that if
(12:14):
you use your strength, you use less energy when you're helping
someone out as opposed to like learning something new at the
same time. And then strategic can also be,
let me think, well, I've lost it, so now you go.
I was interested as well in likesome of the deposits people
might be making thinking the adding value, but not.
(12:34):
And I think one of them sort of you alluded to is we, we often
find this, let's say in a meeting where people often see
themselves as the deliverer. So everyone will decide
something. They don't contribute their
opinion or thoughts. They just jump in and start
doing whatever they think the consensus is or whatever they
think in quotation marks they'vebeen told to do.
(12:57):
Thinking that's being really helpful and being really
valuable to a relationship. But the other person might be
like, I actually really wanted your brain to help me figure out
the solution there. And you've kind of just really
devalued yourself into not participating in that
conversation. And so I think sometimes we can
make those mistakes of thinking,racing around and doing a lot
can make us really valuable. But sometimes it just positions
(13:20):
you as helpful, but not necessarily strategically useful
or valuable and different contexts.
And so we think we're adding so much value to these
relationships and they're kind of we're actually positioning
ourselves as kind of just a helpful doer rather than someone
who's coming to really add to the quality of conversations or
(13:41):
decision making in the room. I think that's such an important
distinction here is this does wrap into personal brand and the
strategic deposits are ones thatreally elevate your personal
brand. And so again, they establish
further establish your strength.So you want to be helping in
those areas. They further establish things
(14:03):
related to boundaries in the value of your time when it
becomes to kind of time bound things.
They also equally, like you said, move you away from
constantly just taking on other people's work and staying late
and being the burnt out one to kind of going, I've got, you
know, the specific expertise andI'm going to show rather than do
(14:25):
or I'm going to contribute when there's that strategic
opportunity rather than do and don't jump into that mode.
But I think, yeah, 100%. Yeah, it's, it's some of those
Miss Got like I was thinking some other ones thinking about
some recent topics we've coveredon the podcast, things like
meeting overload. And instead of going, oh, I tune
up to every meeting. I'm really busy at work.
(14:45):
I'm really contributing. But you're sort of half
distracted in the meetings and maybe multitasking or sort of
reading your emails or whatever else it might be.
That again leaves people going, they were kind of not really
contributing. And so you have two very
different viewpoints over what what that deposit looked like.
And for you, it felt like a deposit, but for them it felt
almost like a withdrawal. There's the other one that I
(15:08):
feel like is I've seen a bit is people think that they are
being, being nice is really valuable.
So not giving feedback or not I'm raising issues when they
arise and forgetting that actually that can be a real
withdrawal as well. Because sometimes people like
feedback as a gift and, and really, and investing in those
(15:29):
relationships sometimes means being really honest and, and,
and contributing to them actively.
So I think sometimes when, when and we've had these
conversations with people who feel like there's a real
imbalance, it is worth just stopping and going, am I adding
something that is valued by thisperson?
Or am I just, like you say, sortof jumping on a habit or
(15:49):
continuing sort of on autopilot with stuff that I just do that
they don't really care about at all?
And I also think when it comes to depositing, like the person
who comes to mind, we both worked with this person a while
ago. And I just remember we were
laughing. One day we had a lunch before
Christmas and I had to send her a note.
(16:11):
So I sent a flicker, an e-mail from my iPhone and she came
back. Oh, very nice that you're out
for lunch. I haven't had a lunch break in
weeks. And I just thought how in that
context, sometimes you're like this relationship, it doesn't
really matter how much I've beenover backwards replying quickly
to her emails, she's still not going to value that I needed to
solve a totally different thing if I need, if I wanted to find
(16:34):
that common ground and build therelationship.
So sometimes we can kind of buy into that, like kind of valuing
the stuff that we care about or going, but I did it right and
it's just not something they care about.
So like. I think there's a couple of
threads there, which is really interesting. 1 is that, and I
think it's worth chatting about briefly, is that social capitals
(16:55):
ultimately the relationship thatwe build with others and, and a
deposit is a really nice way to do that.
And if you think about the greatrelationships in your lives, but
the friends who are there when you really need them or other
friends who might just delight and surprise you when least
expected. It could be a Christmas card or
a little gift in the, in the, I remember talking complimenting a
(17:18):
friend on her eyebrow color. And because we both have blonde
eyebrows and she's like, oh, I use, you know, the Clairol and
it's really great. And it comes in light brown,
which is our tone. And then the next day it was in
my mailbox and I was like, that was the most thoughtful thing.
I love that. That is the concept of building
a relationship on reciprocity and not always giving, giving,
giving. But I think there's a thread
(17:39):
there about that. It is a relationship.
And quite often people like, well, people like working with
people they like working with. And so the point here is not to
not be strategic, as in if I give something, I'm going to get
something. But this is actually in the
benefit of a relationship so that we work Better Together and
increase the value of our work together.
But equally, I think there was athread here about being brave
(18:01):
enough to have a conversation and either to ask, you know, to
start to discuss, you know, what's happening here for a bit
of a reset. And I think it's not, it's not
controversial or too scary to say things like I've been
noticing I've been taking a lot of this on, but I just need to
pull, I need to pull back on this for a bit or something Like
(18:22):
I'd love to help, but I'm at capacity this week.
Is there any other, you know, can we find another way?
So I think getting really curious and are these short
almost no without saying no statements of just starting to
signal that hang on a SEC, we'regetting a bit out of balance
here. I think it's time for a bit of a
rebalance. Few things.
And even just asking what people, what is helpful for
(18:45):
other people rather than just assuming, yeah, what do you need
right now actually? Because I'm just jumping to our
go tos isn't always that helpful.
What if you are up against someone who you consider to be a
withdrawal? So it could be someone who just
kind of flings work at you last minute.
It could be that sort of constant interruptions.
It could be someone who claims alot of credit for joint work.
(19:08):
You know, all those things that can really diminish the value of
a relationship. How do you tackle that?
Well, I like thinking of our mini master class on no.
And you use an analogy of going away on holiday and you're, you
have a family member who's a copand basically asking them, how
do I keep my house from being broken into?
(19:30):
And ultimately it was just make your house the tiniest bit
harder than the neighbor to break into and you know, don't
leave the money out. And I, I don't know, security
sticker on the window, whatever that might be, but I think
that's a really nice analogy to this is that there are people
who are serial withdrawers. I suspect their social capital
(19:51):
banks aren't all that high at the moment.
And so ultimately they will justtake from whoever will give at
that time. So that is a problem in itself.
That's probably a cultural problem.
It is really hard to work with people like that.
But I would just make your housea little bit harder to break
into than the next door. I think a good point with social
capital as well as the differentdynamics have different balances
(20:13):
and and like I always think kids, like most kids, are
withdrawers when it comes to their parents.
Oh my goodness. Mine are still withdrawers.
When do I ever get back? I don't know if you want to do
for your kids. I think the point of kids is
like that dynamic is like the bank account is constantly being
topped up by you and withdrawn by them and that's how it should
be. But then those same kids could
go and have friendships with their real depositor.
(20:35):
So I think recognizing sometimesthat we fall into dynamics as
well. And I think a lot of power
dynamics have that same approach.
Like a lot of people I speak to still see their manager as a
really in a very powerful position that almost leaves them
powerless. And so they can sometimes have a
really kind of screwed up socialcapital bank account because
(20:58):
they, they, they think it's maybe their manager's job to
tell them to help support them and guide them and keep them
positive and look after them andcounsel them.
But what the manager's seeing issomeone who's really withdrawing
from their social capital bank account.
And so sometimes it's we have these perceptions of what
different roles in our lives aremeant to do.
(21:20):
And the same person who might begoing home and being the
absolute organizer, the positiveperson, the person who's got
everything sorted, can come to work and sort of dump all their
problems on their manager and not realize that that dynamic
doesn't play out really well either.
And the manager may feel uncomfortable, like it devalues
you in the organization because you take a lot of the time and
(21:42):
energy. But they may not know how to
broach that either because they may just see you as someone
who's quite needy. And that's how they treat you
from there. That that's actually a really
fairpoint and I like that you brought it up because that was
last week's episode on stop assuming and start managing up.
And I think that we were at a power suit get together and I
was chatting with someone who isstruggling in a relationship
(22:04):
with their manager and visibility felt to be a problem.
And we have talked about this before and it's in conversation
last week and then in that episode.
So please listen, but she kind of didn't understand how to get
time from her manager or, you know, time, space, visibility,
great conversations. And granted, that is a problem.
But I just said, what if you were to send an e-mail every
(22:28):
Monday where you were calling out the two or three things that
were top priority for you, The one thing you needed from her,
if if anything at all, and then something that she should be
across like what if you're to dothat and there's someone across
the table went, I manage nine people and I would love if I got
9 emails every Monday morning. And I just thought there's
something in that like there is a putting yourself.
(22:49):
And we talked a lot about this in the last week.
There's something about putting yourself in that other person's
shoes. What is it like to be them?
And in your capacity with that is strategic that is using your
strengths and or your your position wisely.
How might you make their lives easier in a very small way?
And that that would literally take 30 seconds, that e-mail.
(23:11):
Yeah, yeah, I agree. There was lots of different ways
that we can be accidental withdrawals and someone I
thought they were really brave and very self aware.
I mentioned that they did need alot of reassurance and it just
through this workshop had this real light bulb moment of wow,
that actually draws a lot of energy from my manager, who by
the way, was in the room and waslike, I don't think I've noticed
them do this at all. But they were very aware of like
(23:35):
that constant need for reassurance.
Can they actually take somethingfrom someone else who's having
to do the reassuring? I thought that was a great
example. And then the other one, which
you see quite often in workplaces, and there were two
ways that came out. One was the, hey, have you got
such and such sorted? And the response being no person
a got it to me late or actually it's on them and how that's such
(23:58):
a social capital withdrawal because you've basically just
passed the buck for something that someone wanted you to sort
And, and someone else raised that.
Her response often, more often than she was happy with once she
thought about it was I, I don't know anything about it.
Again, passing the buck. So these are all things that a
lot of us are accidentally guilty of.
Another one is like kind of bringing poor, poor relationship
(24:22):
dynamics into situations. Like, I don't want to work with
that person or assuming that they're difficult or complaining
about different people rather than just like getting on and
sorting out those relationships and, and investing in them.
And that can sometimes play out.We know a lot of people who work
in HR roles and you just see these people, the dynamics
between people blow up to the point that they're like, there's
(24:44):
a whole bunch of time and energybeing invested in something that
often was just a miscommunication.
And then this dynamic blow up. And those are withdrawals.
Those, these can be real withdrawals, not to discount,
like real dysfunctional or toxicbehavior at work, but it is easy
to jump to that and start to really draw on other people's
time and energy to help you resolve it.
(25:06):
Yeah, I feel like sometimes it is.
It's really interesting to see how often we have those things
that we're like, Oh yeah, that'sthat's the thing that I do.
I know, and that's all. It's such an interesting tension
because there's two sides, of course, to everything.
But I think what we're suggesting is not all be a
pushover, but think about what you know.
What is it like to be them? What is it like to be in this
place? What are the objectives we want
(25:26):
to meet? How might I take a small amount
of time or energy each week and actually build up this
relationship wisely because it will return in space and then
equally on the other side? Yeah, I remember so many people
that were just like, not my job or not yet.
No, that's not just like, Oh my,Oh my God, I'm carting chips and
(25:49):
beer up 12 flights of stairs. Would you just bloody?
It's true. It's like it's, it's, I think
what happens when we haven't learned how to say no properly
or how to manage our time is sometimes our instinct of how we
do it or when we are feeling uncomfortable saying no, we say
things that the exact opposite of what we should be saying.
(26:11):
Thinking that we're being assertive and, and actually what
it comes across as is really unhelpful.
So we've got a whole workshop onthat to a mini master class on
how you can more comfortably andprofessionally say no without
without withdrawing from these relationships.
But I feel I like just to wrap up, the last thing is if you do
find yourself in a relationship with a withdrawal, and we've all
played out in those dynamics like children aside, because
(26:33):
they're just going to keep doingthat.
But you have a workmate who's constantly complaining or
throwing work to you or, you know, palming stuff off or
always has a drama or a problem or might need reassurance or you
kind of just feel like you're giving and giving.
And I remember. I had a.
Boyfriend like this and someone once said that imagine it like
(26:55):
an empty cup, a bottomless cup and it doesn't really matter how
much water you pour into the cupbecause there's a hole at the
bottom. It's never going to give the
outcome that you want because it's just they cannot contain
the deposits effectively becausethey just want more and more and
more. And I think if you are in that
position and you've noticed that, that it doesn't like
you're really investing and theydon't feel like they're
(27:17):
investing, I think this week it's a good idea to maybe pause
and go, am I investing the wrongdeposits?
Is it something that they don't think about?
Am I accidentally making withdrawals?
And I've sort of all the deposits in the world have not
made-up for the fact that I'm kind of taking out the money,
taking out the deposits as soon as I'm putting them in with
other things? Or is it time to maybe have a
conversation with them and, and,and, and say, how are we going
(27:40):
to get this relationship really firing?
What kind of stuff could we, what, how can I be most helpful
to you? And how do we kind of support
each other? Because you can see
relationships really turn aroundwith some great conversations
and realize you're just completely on different pages
around what's valuable and what's important.
Totally agreed. I love, I love that as a final
wrap. So and actually I would just do
(28:02):
an invitation, check out powersuit.com and first of all,
get into the platform so we can chat with you.
It is like it's accessible, it'saffordable.
There's just no reason monthly subscription, no reason why you
can't just come and try it out and come meet us and we'll
personalize your first step so you can see if it's for you.
But also we do, we kind of alluded to a lot of workshops
(28:23):
that we do both online or in person.
So check out some of our training that we do.
So that's a bit of a call to action to spread the word in
your workplace so that we can add a little bit more value
because there may be some withdrawal withdrawers that need
to hear this message. So yeah.
Yeah. Can be really good to have.
We noticed that with the workshops we've been doing, when
you have that language, that shared language around this
(28:45):
stuff, it starts to become a loteasier to go.
That was a withdrawal or oh, thanks.
It was such a great deposit. I really appreciated that.
And as a team, start to build new habits that much more
productive than maybe some of the default ones or some of
those spirals that kind of come about when, you know, there's a
misunderstanding. And then it kind of grows and
suddenly you've got these kind of like yucky dynamics happening
(29:07):
that no one's really happy with.Totally check it out everyone
look forward to chatting with you again next week, so we'll
chat to you later. Bye.
Welcome to Power Up, the podcastthat uncovers the unique
challenges women leaders face today.
Join your hosts Nat and Kristen as we dive into the tough topics
and provide actionable insights you can apply right now.
Don't forget to hit subscribe soyou don't miss any episodes.
(00:38):
We have been doing our International Women's Day month
for the last several weeks and have been running a lot of
workshops. And one of the things that one
of the, I suppose, little light bulb moments for us is when we
talk about energy and the way webuild relationships and the
dynamics and relationships and how depending on your
(01:00):
background, the way you were raised, your culture, there are
a lot of givers. There are people who spend a lot
of time depositing, what we'd say depositing into their
relationships, really investing in relationships, being really
generous with their time, with their knowledge, with their
connections. But a big theme we came across
as a lot of those relations, nota lot of them, but a fear number
(01:22):
of them were investing in relationships which felt like a
one way St. the other person wastaking, but with without
reciprocating that same level ofinvestment or energy.
So we just thought at least talkabout that today.
It was interesting that I had todig to find this specific talk
topic a little bit. And then when I reflected a
(01:43):
little bit, I thought, Oh yeah, that seemed to come up.
And what I mean by that is what was asked of us as we navigated
a bunch of sessions with hundreds of women.
Where can you do more on courageous conversations?
And then when I started asking, well, what are the types of
conversations you had? What they would often result in
(02:04):
my asking them is them going, oh, well, I'm too accommodating
and I'm giving too much and I volunteer too much and I need to
stop. Like that's what there are
courageous conversations that need to happen all the time, of
course, and we will deal with that.
But for this one, it felt like we are our own worst enemy and
that we have been socialized to be accommodating, especially now
(02:28):
at a layer culturally. Obviously we've been navigating
an incredibly diverse rooms and and obviously more collective
and collaborative communities like give, give, give, like we
do things together and you neversay no.
But when I kind of really pushedleaned into them one and
courageous conversations, it waslike a realization of like, Oh,
(02:51):
I need to maybe check my behavior and stop putting my
hand up for every single little thing.
Yeah, and it's and it's, it's interesting.
And I think culture plays a realrole here.
And when you think about workplaces, most of them are
embedded in a highly individualistic Western culture.
And if looking at tech companiescan be at the extreme end of
(03:14):
this. And we've even seen
organizations where performance is measured down to the
individual and there's very little recognition of how well
we work in a team. It's almost like competition
internally. And then you take people who
come from backgrounds where everyone chips in and it's just
you're not seen as individuals competing against each other.
You're just coming together to do stuff stuff.
(03:35):
So when you plunk someone from that culture into an
organization that potentially ismore full of people who are sort
of like, how do I get myself where I want to go?
It can create a lot of confusionand it can lead to some people
really exhausting themselves giving.
But also I think you're right with that sort of, it's easy to
(03:55):
say it's almost like why we run the five wise as people kind of
come up with a solution and phrase it as a problem.
Like, I need to have more courageous conversations, but
the underlying problem is so that I find myself bending over
backwards so all these people who aren't giving back.
And there's lots of ways to solve for that.
There's lots of ways we can adapt our behavior to not leave
ourselves exhausted and to make sure that the relationships
(04:17):
we're building, especially in a work context, are respectful and
people do appreciate the and andacknowledge the energy and
effort we put into them. Yeah.
And I, I remember a conversationI had with ACEO and then also
just as leaders navigating all of our past workplaces, when you
needed something done, you thought of the most reliable,
(04:39):
trustworthy person to do it. And it often is the person that
is accommodating, wants growth, wants stretch, they're going to,
they're going to see it as an opportunity and then, you know,
they're just going to do it. And I think there's also on the
flip side, we have to be a little bit careful of equally
opening up a bit of a conversation about what can we
de de prioritize as a result of this.
(05:00):
You know, this is an important piece of work and you know,
because quite often you do end up going to those people that
are accommodating because they rock.
But it has to be, you know, a thing where the accommodating
person of the person who has been socialized to be a team
player and a good girl and so helpful, But you know, needs to
be able to kind of recognize to have the let's let's be a bit
(05:22):
careful here. When timelines and you know
we'll go, we'll go into some more details there, but the
asker a good time to make a check on this as we chat through
this. Yeah, you are maybe taking a
little bit more from your relationships.
This is where I think delegationgets a bad name amongst a lot of
power suitors is that we all know people who, and I don't
even think it should be called delegation, but they'd say I'm a
(05:44):
great delegator, but what they actually do is just palm stuff
off. And I think a really simple
example of that is the people who just do the blind forward.
They don't add anything. They're just like palmed off to
someone else. And if you are a giver or a
collective contributor up against a person who's very
happy flicking things off at anyone else, it can create this
(06:04):
really problematic dynamic. I just I had I threw up a a
link, sorry, I threw up a poll on LinkedIn just about thinking
about one key relationship in your life, someone that you need
on side. So for us in the past, it would
have been a lawyer or someone inthe risk space or you know,
someone that you actually need on side and then just to sit and
(06:26):
think, are you currently a depositor?
Like, are you really giving a lot, maybe too much to that
relationship? Is it landing in the right way?
Is that the right thing that you're depositing or are you
withdrawing? Like you actually asking too
much too frequently from this person?
So I put out a poll and while I find it, I just thought not.
(06:47):
Do you want to quickly go over, I don't know, any stories or
insights from like that, this concept of bank balance, maybe
just run over that. Yeah, we.
Can do a very quick overview. So we like an analogy because I
think when you talk about thingslike relationships and investing
in your relationship and social capital and all these words, it
can feel very like vague, like what?
I don't know how to measure that.
(07:08):
I don't know if I And it sort ofbecomes big and hard and we sort
of go, yeah, I'm good at relationships that end.
So we have created this bank account analogy basically
thinking of every bank account as a joint savings account.
And the, and the balance is impacted by how much you both
deposit, how much you both withdraw or how often you're
depositing and withdrawing and the amounts you're depositing
(07:31):
withdrawing. And it just kind of takes this
concept of relationships and investing in relationships away
from kind of this theoretical, weird, I don't know, eerie fairy
topic into a, I can actually somewhat track and measure the
types of things that I'm doing in my relationships.
And being much more aware of where we are adding and where we
are withdrawing and even just asa starting point, that can be
(07:55):
really, really beneficial because I was digging into this
for an upcoming newsletter. But we have a real bias humans
do to love ourselves and to think we're great.
So things like most 90% of drivers will say they're above
average in terms of driving. So there's some really
interesting psychology around this around how we are very good
at clinging to evidence of how great we are and discarding
(08:17):
evidence of how not great we are.
So the driving example, you know, there's people who are
like, I'm so great. Look at me driving very Rd.
ragey if anyone else makes a mistake and then blissfully
unaware of all the times they forget to go at the red light,
at the green light because they're checking their phone or
all the little Dings they've gotor whatever else it might be.
And I think it plays into this alittle bit.
And, and and it plays in becausewe're all very good at thinking
(08:39):
about all the great stuff we do in relationships and what we've
added, but we sometimes don't pay attention to the stuff that
we might be withdrawing from relationships or some of the
poor habits that were in. So yeah, this exercise in this
workshop, we go quite deep in itto help people really start to
understand where they sit in these key dynamics and and maybe
uncover some blind spots on where they might be making some
(09:02):
unconscious or accidental withdrawals.
But also and what came out of itas well as to get really clear
on when should you stop investing in a relationship?
When are you investing a lot in finding that actually the other
side is not kind of coming to the party?
I think what's really interesting is this session, the
session we've been delivering isactually was born from a mini
(09:22):
master class in power suit, which is available on demand.
And it's almost like we married that social capital mini master
class with an energy one we've been doing because actually they
go hand in hand and that you're giving, giving, giving your
energy is totally depleted. And people for the most part are
really happy to take and, and may not notice it could be a
(09:45):
blind spot. So just quickly looking at
LinkedIn, it is a small sample size because I've only just put
it up, you know, 45 minutes ago.However, however, 2/3 said with
a key relationship in their workplace with someone that they
need on side, they've been depositing far too much.
So I just think we should maybe chat to those 2/3 right now and
give a couple options about how might you rebalance it or if you
(10:07):
have to say something, how mightyou say something.
So let's chat to the the 2/3 majority, shall we?
Yeah, well. Let's start with depositing too
much, because if you were depositing a lot and it's not
being acknowledged or valued, then maybe you're depositing the
wrong thing. You might be depositing the
wrong currency. So do you want to talk?
Yeah. Do you want to share some
examples of where that might come into play?
(10:30):
Yeah, you're probably depositingyen.
We probably don't want to be depositing American dollars
right now or crypto. But what what do, I don't know
what currencies are really strong at the moment, Probably
China or something. But anyway, so we need to yeah,
it's all about being strategic and kind of of the what we
highlighted was when you give something it actually there are
(10:52):
a few rules #1 it should be timebound, like if someone asks and.
And when I say give, it could even be like you are offering,
you are saying yes to something that is coming across your lap.
But quite often that can be timebound.
So someone might be like, hey, do you have a quick SEC to run
these numbers for me or to take a look at this thing or to help
me not this through and or I'm stuck on this thing.
(11:13):
Can you help? It might just be something like
I've got 10 minutes to help you now or later or tomorrow.
So it's actually putting a bookend of a time like this.
My time is precious. I value my time.
And I happen to have this sliverthat I can help you out with.
And that's better than nothing. And it's really signaling that
(11:34):
you value your time. But Yep, you're happy to help at
this specific time. And so I love this concept of
time, time bound. And then the other thing is kind
of thinking about things that you give that don't expend a lot
of energy. So that can be things like using
your superpowers, your strengths.
If you're really good at not, you know, analytics or
(11:54):
something, you might just be quickly review their work and
maybe you might be able to spot the mistake or you could double
check those figures. Or if you are a collector of
people and a super connector, you might go, Oh yeah, let me
introduce you to someone who might know more about this or
whatever. Like the point is, is that if
(12:14):
you use your strength, you use less energy when you're helping
someone out as opposed to like learning something new at the
same time. And then strategic can also be,
let me think, well, I've lost it, so now you go.
I was interested as well in likesome of the deposits people
might be making thinking the adding value, but not.
(12:34):
And I think one of them sort of you alluded to is we, we often
find this, let's say in a meeting where people often see
themselves as the deliverer. So everyone will decide
something. They don't contribute their
opinion or thoughts. They just jump in and start
doing whatever they think the consensus is or whatever they
think in quotation marks they'vebeen told to do.
(12:57):
Thinking that's being really helpful and being really
valuable to a relationship. But the other person might be
like, I actually really wanted your brain to help me figure out
the solution there. And you've kind of just really
devalued yourself into not participating in that
conversation. And so I think sometimes we can
make those mistakes of thinking,racing around and doing a lot
can make us really valuable. But sometimes it just positions
(13:20):
you as helpful, but not necessarily strategically useful
or valuable and different contexts.
And so we think we're adding so much value to these
relationships and they're kind of we're actually positioning
ourselves as kind of just a helpful doer rather than someone
who's coming to really add to the quality of conversations or
(13:41):
decision making in the room. I think that's such an important
distinction here is this does wrap into personal brand and the
strategic deposits are ones thatreally elevate your personal
brand. And so again, they establish
further establish your strength.So you want to be helping in
those areas. They further establish things
(14:03):
related to boundaries in the value of your time when it
becomes to kind of time bound things.
They also equally, like you said, move you away from
constantly just taking on other people's work and staying late
and being the burnt out one to kind of going, I've got, you
know, the specific expertise andI'm going to show rather than do
(14:25):
or I'm going to contribute when there's that strategic
opportunity rather than do and don't jump into that mode.
But I think, yeah, 100%. Yeah, it's, it's some of those
Miss Got like I was thinking some other ones thinking about
some recent topics we've coveredon the podcast, things like
meeting overload. And instead of going, oh, I tune
up to every meeting. I'm really busy at work.
(14:45):
I'm really contributing. But you're sort of half
distracted in the meetings and maybe multitasking or sort of
reading your emails or whatever else it might be.
That again leaves people going, they were kind of not really
contributing. And so you have two very
different viewpoints over what what that deposit looked like.
And for you, it felt like a deposit, but for them it felt
almost like a withdrawal. There's the other one that I
(15:08):
feel like is I've seen a bit is people think that they are
being, being nice is really valuable.
So not giving feedback or not I'm raising issues when they
arise and forgetting that actually that can be a real
withdrawal as well. Because sometimes people like
feedback as a gift and, and really, and investing in those
(15:29):
relationships sometimes means being really honest and, and,
and contributing to them actively.
So I think sometimes when, when and we've had these
conversations with people who feel like there's a real
imbalance, it is worth just stopping and going, am I adding
something that is valued by thisperson?
Or am I just, like you say, sortof jumping on a habit or
(15:49):
continuing sort of on autopilot with stuff that I just do that
they don't really care about at all?
And I also think when it comes to depositing, like the person
who comes to mind, we both worked with this person a while
ago. And I just remember we were
laughing. One day we had a lunch before
Christmas and I had to send her a note.
(16:11):
So I sent a flicker, an e-mail from my iPhone and she came
back. Oh, very nice that you're out
for lunch. I haven't had a lunch break in
weeks. And I just thought how in that
context, sometimes you're like this relationship, it doesn't
really matter how much I've beenover backwards replying quickly
to her emails, she's still not going to value that I needed to
solve a totally different thing if I need, if I wanted to find
(16:34):
that common ground and build therelationship.
So sometimes we can kind of buy into that, like kind of valuing
the stuff that we care about or going, but I did it right and
it's just not something they care about.
So like. I think there's a couple of
threads there, which is really interesting. 1 is that, and I
think it's worth chatting about briefly, is that social capitals
(16:55):
ultimately the relationship thatwe build with others and, and a
deposit is a really nice way to do that.
And if you think about the greatrelationships in your lives, but
the friends who are there when you really need them or other
friends who might just delight and surprise you when least
expected. It could be a Christmas card or
a little gift in the, in the, I remember talking complimenting a
(17:18):
friend on her eyebrow color. And because we both have blonde
eyebrows and she's like, oh, I use, you know, the Clairol and
it's really great. And it comes in light brown,
which is our tone. And then the next day it was in
my mailbox and I was like, that was the most thoughtful thing.
I love that. That is the concept of building
a relationship on reciprocity and not always giving, giving,
giving. But I think there's a thread
(17:39):
there about that. It is a relationship.
And quite often people like, well, people like working with
people they like working with. And so the point here is not to
not be strategic, as in if I give something, I'm going to get
something. But this is actually in the
benefit of a relationship so that we work Better Together and
increase the value of our work together.
But equally, I think there was athread here about being brave
(18:01):
enough to have a conversation and either to ask, you know, to
start to discuss, you know, what's happening here for a bit
of a reset. And I think it's not, it's not
controversial or too scary to say things like I've been
noticing I've been taking a lot of this on, but I just need to
pull, I need to pull back on this for a bit or something Like
(18:22):
I'd love to help, but I'm at capacity this week.
Is there any other, you know, can we find another way?
So I think getting really curious and are these short
almost no without saying no statements of just starting to
signal that hang on a SEC, we'regetting a bit out of balance
here. I think it's time for a bit of a
rebalance. Few things.
And even just asking what people, what is helpful for
(18:45):
other people rather than just assuming, yeah, what do you need
right now actually? Because I'm just jumping to our
go tos isn't always that helpful.
What if you are up against someone who you consider to be a
withdrawal? So it could be someone who just
kind of flings work at you last minute.
It could be that sort of constant interruptions.
It could be someone who claims alot of credit for joint work.
(19:08):
You know, all those things that can really diminish the value of
a relationship. How do you tackle that?
Well, I like thinking of our mini master class on no.
And you use an analogy of going away on holiday and you're, you
have a family member who's a copand basically asking them, how
do I keep my house from being broken into?
(19:30):
And ultimately it was just make your house the tiniest bit
harder than the neighbor to break into and you know, don't
leave the money out. And I, I don't know, security
sticker on the window, whatever that might be, but I think
that's a really nice analogy to this is that there are people
who are serial withdrawers. I suspect their social capital
(19:51):
banks aren't all that high at the moment.
And so ultimately they will justtake from whoever will give at
that time. So that is a problem in itself.
That's probably a cultural problem.
It is really hard to work with people like that.
But I would just make your housea little bit harder to break
into than the next door. I think a good point with social
capital as well as the differentdynamics have different balances
(20:13):
and and like I always think kids, like most kids, are
withdrawers when it comes to their parents.
Oh my goodness. Mine are still withdrawers.
When do I ever get back? I don't know if you want to do
for your kids. I think the point of kids is
like that dynamic is like the bank account is constantly being
topped up by you and withdrawn by them and that's how it should
be. But then those same kids could
go and have friendships with their real depositor.
(20:35):
So I think recognizing sometimesthat we fall into dynamics as
well. And I think a lot of power
dynamics have that same approach.
Like a lot of people I speak to still see their manager as a
really in a very powerful position that almost leaves them
powerless. And so they can sometimes have a
really kind of screwed up socialcapital bank account because
(20:58):
they, they, they think it's maybe their manager's job to
tell them to help support them and guide them and keep them
positive and look after them andcounsel them.
But what the manager's seeing issomeone who's really withdrawing
from their social capital bank account.
And so sometimes it's we have these perceptions of what
different roles in our lives aremeant to do.
(21:20):
And the same person who might begoing home and being the
absolute organizer, the positiveperson, the person who's got
everything sorted, can come to work and sort of dump all their
problems on their manager and not realize that that dynamic
doesn't play out really well either.
And the manager may feel uncomfortable, like it devalues
you in the organization because you take a lot of the time and
(21:42):
energy. But they may not know how to
broach that either because they may just see you as someone
who's quite needy. And that's how they treat you
from there. That that's actually a really
fairpoint and I like that you brought it up because that was
last week's episode on stop assuming and start managing up.
And I think that we were at a power suit get together and I
was chatting with someone who isstruggling in a relationship
(22:04):
with their manager and visibility felt to be a problem.
And we have talked about this before and it's in conversation
last week and then in that episode.
So please listen, but she kind of didn't understand how to get
time from her manager or, you know, time, space, visibility,
great conversations. And granted, that is a problem.
But I just said, what if you were to send an e-mail every
(22:28):
Monday where you were calling out the two or three things that
were top priority for you, The one thing you needed from her,
if if anything at all, and then something that she should be
across like what if you're to dothat and there's someone across
the table went, I manage nine people and I would love if I got
9 emails every Monday morning. And I just thought there's
something in that like there is a putting yourself.
(22:49):
And we talked a lot about this in the last week.
There's something about putting yourself in that other person's
shoes. What is it like to be them?
And in your capacity with that is strategic that is using your
strengths and or your your position wisely.
How might you make their lives easier in a very small way?
And that that would literally take 30 seconds, that e-mail.
(23:11):
Yeah, yeah, I agree. There was lots of different ways
that we can be accidental withdrawals and someone I
thought they were really brave and very self aware.
I mentioned that they did need alot of reassurance and it just
through this workshop had this real light bulb moment of wow,
that actually draws a lot of energy from my manager, who by
the way, was in the room and waslike, I don't think I've noticed
them do this at all. But they were very aware of like
(23:35):
that constant need for reassurance.
Can they actually take somethingfrom someone else who's having
to do the reassuring? I thought that was a great
example. And then the other one, which
you see quite often in workplaces, and there were two
ways that came out. One was the, hey, have you got
such and such sorted? And the response being no person
a got it to me late or actually it's on them and how that's such
(23:58):
a social capital withdrawal because you've basically just
passed the buck for something that someone wanted you to sort
And, and someone else raised that.
Her response often, more often than she was happy with once she
thought about it was I, I don't know anything about it.
Again, passing the buck. So these are all things that a
lot of us are accidentally guilty of.
Another one is like kind of bringing poor, poor relationship
(24:22):
dynamics into situations. Like, I don't want to work with
that person or assuming that they're difficult or complaining
about different people rather than just like getting on and
sorting out those relationships and, and investing in them.
And that can sometimes play out.We know a lot of people who work
in HR roles and you just see these people, the dynamics
between people blow up to the point that they're like, there's
(24:44):
a whole bunch of time and energybeing invested in something that
often was just a miscommunication.
And then this dynamic blow up. And those are withdrawals.
Those, these can be real withdrawals, not to discount,
like real dysfunctional or toxicbehavior at work, but it is easy
to jump to that and start to really draw on other people's
time and energy to help you resolve it.
(25:06):
Yeah, I feel like sometimes it is.
It's really interesting to see how often we have those things
that we're like, Oh yeah, that'sthat's the thing that I do.
I know, and that's all. It's such an interesting tension
because there's two sides, of course, to everything.
But I think what we're suggesting is not all be a
pushover, but think about what you know.
What is it like to be them? What is it like to be in this
place? What are the objectives we want
(25:26):
to meet? How might I take a small amount
of time or energy each week and actually build up this
relationship wisely because it will return in space and then
equally on the other side? Yeah, I remember so many people
that were just like, not my job or not yet.
No, that's not just like, Oh my,Oh my God, I'm carting chips and
(25:49):
beer up 12 flights of stairs. Would you just bloody?
It's true. It's like it's, it's, I think
what happens when we haven't learned how to say no properly
or how to manage our time is sometimes our instinct of how we
do it or when we are feeling uncomfortable saying no, we say
things that the exact opposite of what we should be saying.
(26:11):
Thinking that we're being assertive and, and actually what
it comes across as is really unhelpful.
So we've got a whole workshop onthat to a mini master class on
how you can more comfortably andprofessionally say no without
without withdrawing from these relationships.
But I feel I like just to wrap up, the last thing is if you do
find yourself in a relationship with a withdrawal, and we've all
played out in those dynamics like children aside, because
(26:33):
they're just going to keep doingthat.
But you have a workmate who's constantly complaining or
throwing work to you or, you know, palming stuff off or
always has a drama or a problem or might need reassurance or you
kind of just feel like you're giving and giving.
And I remember. I had a.
Boyfriend like this and someone once said that imagine it like
(26:55):
an empty cup, a bottomless cup and it doesn't really matter how
much water you pour into the cupbecause there's a hole at the
bottom. It's never going to give the
outcome that you want because it's just they cannot contain
the deposits effectively becausethey just want more and more and
more. And I think if you are in that
position and you've noticed that, that it doesn't like
you're really investing and theydon't feel like they're
(27:17):
investing, I think this week it's a good idea to maybe pause
and go, am I investing the wrongdeposits?
Is it something that they don't think about?
Am I accidentally making withdrawals?
And I've sort of all the deposits in the world have not
made-up for the fact that I'm kind of taking out the money,
taking out the deposits as soon as I'm putting them in with
other things? Or is it time to maybe have a
conversation with them and, and,and, and say, how are we going
(27:40):
to get this relationship really firing?
What kind of stuff could we, what, how can I be most helpful
to you? And how do we kind of support
each other? Because you can see
relationships really turn aroundwith some great conversations
and realize you're just completely on different pages
around what's valuable and what's important.
Totally agreed. I love, I love that as a final
wrap. So and actually I would just do
(28:02):
an invitation, check out powersuit.com and first of all,
get into the platform so we can chat with you.
It is like it's accessible, it'saffordable.
There's just no reason monthly subscription, no reason why you
can't just come and try it out and come meet us and we'll
personalize your first step so you can see if it's for you.
But also we do, we kind of alluded to a lot of workshops
(28:23):
that we do both online or in person.
So check out some of our training that we do.
So that's a bit of a call to action to spread the word in
your workplace so that we can add a little bit more value
because there may be some withdrawal withdrawers that need
to hear this message. So yeah.
Yeah. Can be really good to have.
We noticed that with the workshops we've been doing, when
you have that language, that shared language around this
(28:45):
stuff, it starts to become a loteasier to go.
That was a withdrawal or oh, thanks.
It was such a great deposit. I really appreciated that.
And as a team, start to build new habits that much more
productive than maybe some of the default ones or some of
those spirals that kind of come about when, you know, there's a
misunderstanding. And then it kind of grows and
suddenly you've got these kind of like yucky dynamics happening
(29:07):
that no one's really happy with.Totally check it out everyone
look forward to chatting with you again next week, so we'll
chat to you later. Bye.
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