March 7, 2026 • 36 mins
Nat and Kristen dig into why women speak up to 75% less the moment men enter the room - and no, it's not a confidence problem, but a room problem. They get into the research behind why it takes a supermajority of women on a board before they get equal airtime, and what's actually going on when women go quiet in spaces that weren't really designed for them.
But this one's as much for allies as it is for women - there's a brilliant trick from Obama's White House staff, practical ways to prep so you actually speak up, and why the casual chat after the meeting might be worth paying attention to.
This one's worth sharing around for International Women's Day!
Loved it? Share it and leave us a 5-star review! Got a topic for us? Email hello@powrsuit.com. Follow Powrsuit on LinkedIn and Instagram, or join us at www.powrsuit.com for bite-sized professional development that actually fits into your week. 'Til next time, Powrsuiters!
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Episode Transcript
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(00:05):
Welcome to Power Up, the podcastthat uncovers the unique
challenges women leaders face today.
Join your hosts Nat and Kristen as we dive into the tough topics
and provide actionable insights you can apply right now.
Don't forget to hit subscribe soyou don't miss any episodes.
(00:38):
We want to chat a little bit about how to find your voice
when you are a minority. We work with a lot of women who
are minorities and we happen to be in an event one time and
there were probably 60% of men in the room.
And normally when we go into an audience and we work with a lot
of women, they tend to be reallyengaged.
They throw their hand up, they're throwing out answers.
(01:00):
And we found this market difference of the women in the
room were entirely silent and itwas the men, fabulous allies who
were engaged. And we just found that really so
interesting, wasn't it, that that that happened to us at that
event? Well, I was actually thinking it
wasn't just us who noticed, someone else actually called it
(01:22):
out as well. But I think we noticed that in
all these events, by the way, women focused events like the
men in the room are there to tryand create better spaces, more
inclusive spaces. So this is like even more
specific that this is when everyone's on the same team.
But I've even noticed it, even if there's like a handful of men
(01:43):
in a room full of women, that the amount, the vibe changes
dramatically. And the allies who turn up are
very brave and they are engaged and they are contributing.
And women change how they behaveand significantly drop how we
engage. Your studies show, which was I
(02:05):
found this, that after we did that event, but women speak up
to 75% less when outnumbered, whereas men experience no
participation drop when they're in the minority.
I'm not entirely, I don't entirely agree with that because
we've done international Women'sDay events for a few years now
and there usually are a handful of men in the crowd and you can
tell they are their participation absolutely drops.
(02:28):
Like I think so anyway, I've noticed that.
So I'm not sure you know where that I mean I.
Kind of, I suppose it's hard because we don't know how they'd
usually participate in my optionof the men who turn up, I mean,
who are very aware of not of being inclusive.
So they probably they are more likely to be people who adapt to
this situation. Yeah, yeah, they definitely ask
(02:48):
should I even be here? Do I belong here?
It's like, yes, yes, you do come, come and just listen and
learn, which is great, but it is, it is real.
And I was reading that it takes a, and I've heard this on boards
as well, that it takes a super majority of women before women
get equal airtime under majorityrule decision making.
So let's say a board of six people, they're saying that
(03:11):
there has to be a majority of women.
So 4 of the six have to be womenwhere they get equal air time
when it comes to actually agreeing on a decision that has
to be made or voicing their opinion on sub decision.
This is one of those really nuanced parts about the work we
do, and I love this conversationbecause I feel like I have it
quite often. Where if you, based on your
(03:34):
experience of the world, you only get to see a small fraction
of it. So if you are someone who is in
a meeting, like let's say you work in my team and I'm the
manager and I'm a man and I'm like, Kristen just never speaks
up in meetings. I have no concept that when you
are in a different group, you might be the biggest talker in
that group. So I have this perception of you
(03:55):
as being quiet and introverted, but actually what I have not
done is create a space where youfeel like you can speak.
But I'm not aware of that because there are other people
in the team who are very comfortable in that environment
and they're speaking. And I think this is what we try
and explain sometimes when organizations say we don't have
any problems. We just don't know why women
aren't putting their hands up for leadership roles or why
(04:17):
they're leaving or. We, we, we're trying to.
Figure out why they're so under confident and those are the
wrong conversations to be having.
The conversation actually needs to be what is it in the
environment that actually gets people contributing equally?
And it's nuanced and it's different for everyone.
It's not women versus men versusnon binary.
(04:38):
It's like everyone has their ownstyles.
But what we've noticed and what the stats point to, because we
tend to study male, female, is that there is a difference when
we're all put in a room together.
I think it's and we are the lastto be bashing at all, but I'm
going to raise some terms that we are well aware of because I
(04:59):
think what comes along with thisis like anything education.
And so we are most of us are aware of the term mansplaining
or men spreading and men taking up space or explaining things to
you that you very well know a great deal about, perhaps more.
But there is some other terms that have gone viral in recent
times. One called heap heating.
(05:21):
Oh man, that repeats. And this happened to an
astrophysicist. And she was like all of my
incredibly brilliant physicist astrophysicist, you know, you
know, space women are being their ideas.
The fabulous ideas are being simply repeated in meetings and
therefore clear claimed by men. And that was a tweet that went
viral in 2017. So I've never heard of it
(05:43):
before. So I think awareness around that
one, and I hate to say it, but an interruption is, is, is a
thing and are three times more likely to interrupt a woman than
another man. So it's a thing and.
Also three times more likely to interrupt a woman than they are
a man speaking. I was thinking about this
(06:03):
because we are doing this week'snewsletter next.
I'm not even going to try and figure out what's coming out.
We are but talking about the personality tests we've just
done. Then we talk about it on the
podcast too. And I am an interrupter.
And I've realized that that is part of my personality type,
that I move fast, I like energy,I think quickly.
(06:25):
And I've wondered even just writing the newsletter this week
about those in this particular personality test, the if there
is a tendency for women to fit into some of those categories in
higher percentages and mean to fit into other categories and
higher percentages. And, and that the the, the,
(06:48):
because I just came up for conversation with someone who
has been told she's unconfident a lot of times.
And I'm like, do you feel under confident or do you feel that
maybe your communication style is different?
And she's like, I've never thought of it.
I just assumed I must be. And I just wonder if there's
something in this about like we might fit in those different
categories, nature, nurture, whocares slightly in different
(07:09):
percentages. And of course, of course, the
workplace norm is mean because women have only really recently
become visible in every part of workplaces.
And so we've got this. Idea of how we behave.
That is focused around norms formen, which may be more likely to
be in specific types of personalities.
That was it's just something that struck me because I've
never had a problem interruptingor being interrupted, and I
(07:33):
think I'm a man. And, and I wonder, I mean, I
again, I, what I think is reallyinteresting, you'd mention norms
which are clearly formed both in, you know, as in the
environment that we operate in both at home and in the
workplace. And I would wager that the men
in my generation were still raised in a household where the
(07:56):
mum had a slightly lower hierarchical status in terms of
decision making and a voice a different in a different way.
They held different forms of power.
But they possibly would have viewed behavior where the
husband or father, and I know I'm generalizing it, but we're
talking about, you know, 40 years ago, the man still had the
(08:16):
final say. I mean, this was being taught in
churches and in institutions of like the man is the leader of a
house and culturally that was accepted.
And so I think again, these are men in the workplace today that
unfortunately had that start in life.
And therefore, I think you're right.
Personality, yes, but equally that behavior will have been
modeled for some time. But I think it's changing.
(08:36):
It is changing. It is changing.
No, I agree. Well, and, and actually, I think
now we're talking about our generation being parented in
that dynamic that I think I I'veheard that even with people
doing pre marriage counseling and just the assumptions that of
the gendered roles that had never been examined.
It's just like so ingrained in how they were raised that the
(08:58):
men feel like of course the woman's going to take time off,
of course she's going to finish working or whatever it is that
they just like assumed is the case.
So, yeah, could equally be any of those things.
And and it is just interesting that I, I didn't realize that
there were three times men were three times more likely to
interrupt women. And again, as all the stuff is
so unconscious and you may leavea meeting if you are a man
(09:22):
going, oh, that was a really robust, interesting
conversation. And the woman around you may
leave saying wow no woman. Every time a woman spoke she got
interrupted and have perceived that exact same interaction
incredibly differently and left going.
There's no point even trying to chat in this environment.
Well, I think that's really interesting because it's often
(09:43):
a, an experience we have at somestage in our careers or lives
where we have been, I suppose, taught and, or hurt as in terms
of we've tried to say something and have been interrupted or
there's been a pattern that's happened or something that's
happened where we then have thisbelief of ourselves.
(10:03):
And I think not only do we have this environment that wasn't
designed, many environments still to this day aren't
designed with women in mind and having their perspective,
perspectives championed. But equally, we have learned, we
have this learned behavior, liketo your point of the confidence,
she's believed that because she's been told that So and I
(10:26):
and what I'm getting to is womenhave a belief that maybe their
ideas aren't good enough or theyhave to be.
They have to be perfectly formedbefore spoken speaking them, or
they have to have a certain voice or certain behavior when
they're sharing those perspectives.
So in the essence, even if the room isn't it, the gender isn't
a barrier in the room. They're holding themselves back,
(10:48):
which is complicated. And this is that we talk a lot
about professional baggage and you could be in the world's most
inclusive, well facilitated room.
And if you have been, if you areused to coming from rooms where
your voice isn't heard, you're interrupted, everyone speaks
quickly, there's no facilitation, you behave
differently. And so even if you're doing
(11:09):
everything right as a facilitator, people in the room
will be bringing that baggage with them.
And that's where the stuff is really hard because you could
walk outgoing, but I did everything right.
Why didn't they behave? And it's not A + B = C There's a
whole bunch of these really nuanced factors that come into
it that mean that we have to unpick and unwork through.
So yeah, this is this is something that is worth everyone
(11:30):
really thinking through, A, whatam I contributing?
And B, what baggage am I bringing into these meetings
that maybe I can let go of or into these conversations that
maybe I I can not? Make the assumption when I
arrive this is going to be the same and treat each one as a
fresh start. But equally, if people aren't
behaving the way you expect themto be, get really curious about
(11:52):
what may they may be receiving in the meeting or the
conversation. So for Special International
Women's Day edition, we just wanted to deep dive in some tips
both for women and for allies around this finding your voice
or enabling others to find theirvoice in these spaces.
So I'm going to start and I'm going to start with one that we
(12:13):
talked. About you for finding your voice
and just stepping in and talking, I applaud you.
Kristen, you're really intimidating that.
But great from you. I actually said this to Brenda
Goff the other day. She did a really good shot and I
said good from you. And she's like, whoa.
And I was like, Oh no, that's just a saying I use all the
time. But I managed to do the absolute
(12:34):
wrong way of announcing that That sounded so patronizing.
I was. Now it's just a friend term.
We're like good from you. I used to use that term a lot
until my friend said it was really offensive and it wasn't
coming from I genuinely meant it.
Like good for you when? I said about other people like
great from them, great from you.But then yes, I turned out
(12:56):
context. Yeah, and those.
Yeah, no, I put my foot in it again.
OK, This is one we talked about quite a bit, and this is prep,
prep, prep, prep. Prep equals confidence.
You're going into a meeting, there's something going on where
your presence is expected. Therefore, some preparation is
highly recommended. What is the meeting about?
Do you hold a particular view? Is there a point you want to get
(13:18):
across, a perspective, a question you want to ask?
Women who feel prepared speak more and like full stop, women
who feel prepared speak more. So get prepared.
There's a number of ways you cando it.
Is there agenda? Read it a little bit of research
based on some key talking pointsof that fabulous pre wire.
(13:39):
The meeting we had Shelly Lombard deliver a fabulous mini
master class to our to our para suitors and she talked about
before the meeting go and she called up pre wiring.
Go and chat with different decision makers and attendees of
that meeting. Get a sense of what's going to
be tabled, what's going on where, what are their ideas
(14:00):
about this and maybe float your idea as well just to get some
feedback or to get some advocates.
So prep equals confidence. I also loved her tip to speak
first in the meeting. Ask your question this because
the number of times she I loved how she interpreted this, she's
she left it for later. And I think and so someone else
asked the same question 1st. And I think a lot of women in
(14:21):
that boat think, Oh, that means it was a really stupid question.
Whereas she was like, damn, I need to get my question out
first. So everyone interviews with me,
which I really liked. The other person coming to mind
of the mini master classes we'vehad is Stu Van Rai on confidence
and how we all try and tackle confidence.
But actually competence is what leads to confidence and prep
(14:42):
gives you that competence. So for the members who are
listening, go check out those two mini master classes because
they will give you a big step forward in that meeting Prep.
Second one, claim physical space.
This is again, gosh, we have some really great mini master
classes that I was just thinkingabout the the one we did on the
brain body connection and how sometimes our bodies are
(15:04):
actually giving us all the signals and that we aren't
feeling confident and good. And actually learning how to
reframe how you sit and hold yourself very subtly has a
massive impact on how you claim physical space and how you are
perceived and and how your brainworks too.
It gets you down from that stress levels.
So one of the easiest tips that we have when you are wanting to
(15:28):
interrupt in a meeting or jump in is to signal that you're
going to lean in, turn your camera on, turn mute off,
whatever it is that you switch up in that moment.
I clicked switch up in that moment to indicate I'm about to
speak. We all pick up on those social
cues. So face in, lean forward, change
(15:50):
your stance when you're about tospeak, look around you.
And if you're someone who hasn'treally considered this before,
in your next meeting virtually and in person, look around at
what people are doing before they speak so that you can see
those little cues and start practicing them.
And when you're leaning in and when you're facing forward and
really engage locking in with the table, it will reduce
(16:13):
interruptions. Like we all know what it's like
when someone looks down, when they're pausing, when they're
like for too long that people jump in.
So really, if you are a pause atwhich is absolutely fine, how do
you hold the room so people don't interrupt?
That's that's something that we can all think about.
Yeah, I think posture does signal authority.
And while you were chatting, I rolled my shoulders back and
(16:35):
leaned in a little bit. And not only and to
Kimberlucci's mini master class is I felt a sense of I was a
strange feeling. It was almost like calm by just
sitting up with my shoulders up.And I I wouldn't describe it as
confidence, but it felt like a sense of readiness.
And I don't know, Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
(16:55):
Yeah, love the love the posture run.
OK, another tip, tip #3 commit, we love this as an action is
commit to one idea, perspective,question per meeting rule.
Create a rule for yourself whereagain, your presence is, it's
expensive, it is your time. You need a return on investment
for that time, either in the wayof sharing your perspective and
(17:18):
enabling kind of an outcome thataligns with where your thinking
is, but equally personal brand, even if it's just a a question
and you want to be seen and and visible in a meeting, which is
why Shelly was like, speak first, but commit to it,
actually commit to it. Say, look, I'm spending my time
here. It's a valuable resource.
And so this is I am committing to one idea, one perspective,
(17:39):
one question that is a rule and actually building a habit into
that. I always find this so
fascinating. Before our power match peer
coaching, one of the big barriers people have is do I
have anything to add? Like if someone's bringing truck
challenge or has something top of mind, what do I know?
And every single time afterwardsthey come out going whoa.
The other person's like whoa. They really helped me with a
(18:00):
fresh perspective. And I think sometimes we forget
the thing that we think is just like often so far out of the
rounds of what other people are thinking about that you will
have something unique to share. And I think that leads us to my
next one, which is if you are introverted like me.
We did a test one time and I think you did land in the middle
(18:22):
of the scale, but but anyway, I digress.
I think psychologists are actually creating a food.
A torovert or something? Yeah, and that you can jump
between. I think that probably is me.
This is something I am loud. This is a hot tip for anyone.
You can be introverted and loud.Those are two separate things.
It's how you energy. But you don't have to be loud to
be heard. And I just think this is such a
(18:45):
strong reminder because I feel like this is you see, all the
time. And actually after one of our
personal board of directors events, someone gave us some
feedback. And she said as an introvert and
as a quiet person at the end, you know what it's like, the
rooms are buzzy. There's so many people.
They just had this epic connection with a bunch of
people. They're like fizzing.
(19:06):
They're firing off popcorns of like, this is my insight.
This is this. There's A and she said, I felt
like I did it wrong because we sat down and we followed the
agenda and we did our bit and then we formed a strong
connection and we were happy to leave.
And I felt like I had missed thememo that we were all meant to
be like engaging as a group, as the wider big, you know, 80 odd
(19:28):
person group. And and that we weren't having
as much fun and that everyone else is doing this.
And I thought, oh, isn't that sointeresting that interpretation
because as far as I'm concerned,she did it perfectly.
She turned up, she connected with people, she shared what she
wanted to share, and then she moved on with her day.
But it is so that and Kyla, my girlfriend's given me this
(19:48):
feedback too. Of if you introverts and
extroverts in a room, neither isadapting.
Like neither is like speaking more or less or whatever.
But when you are the loud group,you form the culture because you
are dominant when you're allowed, and it leads people who
are less loud to feel like they're not contributing or
can't. So just the biggest piece of
advice I can give for people trying to find their voice if
(20:10):
they don't have a loud one or don't like to use it very often.
Make every word count. Like you do not have to speak up
a lot. Silence is powerful and a few
well placed words are very powerful.
Again, Ashley Poholic, who is anincredible power suit expert,
and she did a mini master class on exactly this, how to
(20:31):
interrupt and find your voice inmeetings and was very clear that
that waffle detracts. We all know what it's like,
which I'm probably doing now. Waffling.
You end up being like move along, move along, whereas a
couple of well well thought out points, bam, powerful move on.
You know, it was interesting, I recall coaching someone who was
an introvert and she was given the feedback that she didn't
(20:53):
speak up enough. Her confidence was low and
therefore they were holding her back for the next, from the next
step in her career. And she was really hurt by this
because she disagreed. She felt confident, she felt
like she knew her stuff technically.
And I, I started this blends with one of our other points as
I started to ask about her body language, because body language
can give a huge cue from introverts.
(21:13):
If you're looking down, if you she, she doesn't always like
looking in people's eyes, fine. But I said it's really important
that you take some notes becausethat is a, it appear.
It's a, it gives off a message that you are engaged.
And if you don't want to always look up and into someone's eyes,
find a point on the wall. It could look like you are
thinking or considering something, but taking notes is a
(21:36):
real sign of engagement and allows you to put your eyes down
on that piece of paper. So yeah, I love that I.
Was going to say, since you got your glasses and then you've
started, do you start taking paper notes recently?
Like in the last couple of months since you started taking
paper notes? Oh no, you just draw pictures.
Those are notes. Are they?
You look way more intelligent every time I'm on a meeting with
(21:57):
you and you like go to write a note, I'm like, she's really
smart. I wonder what she's now you're
showing me. Wait, I had to take a picture of
this to put up because this is ahilarious.
These are hilarious, Kristen. I hope there's nothing.
I hope there's nothing. I can't don't.
(22:18):
I cut chat. I chat, I chat one.
What are you doing? OK, I am taking.
I'm really smart, no? There's my You look like.
A My yellow pen. OK, my last point, my last
point, find your person. And this is something that like
think back to a time in a meeting where someone championed
your perspective or called you out and asked for your
(22:40):
perspective because it's likely that they knew your work, they
knew you're an expert in this area, or they knew you took an
interest in this area. I've been in a room where that's
happened before and immediately there's a sense of psychological
safety about that. Now that was luck.
I happened to have an ally in the room who had some influence
and was able to include me on the conversations.
What I'm suggesting here is to look at who's in the meeting and
(23:04):
find deliberately foster a relationship with a couple of
allies. Let them know what you're
interested in sharing. This again goes back to the pre
wire the meeting, give the person look.
I'd really love to share this perspective.
I've got some ideas on it. So if you kind of lose your feet
and have a little bit of wobble in the meeting, that person
(23:25):
should be able to call on you and just say, I think, you know,
Rachel's got a great idea or perspective on this.
What was that that you were saying?
Again Rach, you know that so youcan deliberately go and do this
in the pre wire and or as you are building relationships with
people is again find a person inthe room that is willing to
include you and to call out yourknowledge and expertise.
(23:48):
I love that. And even if you're not having a
wobble, some people find it really hard to find the gap to
jump in and just having your gapFinder, like I'm a great gap
Finder, I'm very comfortable, like Kristen had a point on this
or such and such. They'll just do it for you.
So find that person. And even that just takes that
effort off you to, if that's notyour natural instinct, go for
(24:09):
that. Let's move on to if you are an
ally in the room, what you can do.
This is one of our all time favorite tips.
And this comes from Obama's White House.
And as Michelle and Barack Obama, we identify very strongly
with anything related to this. When Obama took office, he had a
majority of top aides were men, classic, although he actually
(24:32):
had about a third who are women,which is probably pretty cool
for that time. But those women were getting
talked over and their ideas werebeing attributed to the men and
the team. So actually those women got
together and introduced the concept of amplification within
meetings. So when one woman made a point,
another would repeat it out loudand attribute it.
So I want to come back to what Kristen, Sarah said about this
(24:55):
or great idea Sarah, I want to add to that.
And so hearing it twice by really doubling down on this is
the person who said it. And I'm building on that idea.
It's impossible to ignore and impossible to steal.
And that meant that Obama, without knowing that this is
even happening, noticed and started calling on women more.
And I actually had an example inthe weekend because we helped my
(25:17):
friend move house and we were figuring out where to put the
art. And I said, oh, you could put an
Oval mirror here, which of course no one listened to.
And then someone else like 5 minutes later said we could put
an Oval mirror here. And I was like.
What? And then she was like, I was
like, are you woman's playing me?
But she, she actually missed it.But she said, Oh, I'm building
(25:37):
on your idea. And I was like, that's exactly
what we do. And just naming that of like, oh
building on that idea totally changes the dynamic.
Building on. That we were all talking at each
other, so no one must have blamed that.
Building on Nats design expertise, I love it.
OK, this is great. And I watched a video yesterday
on a woman sharing it was a realstory and it was a woman that
(26:01):
was sharing the words to use when you get interrupted.
And something like I'd love to finish my point and then I
would, you know, be happy to hear your perspective and you
know, shuts the other person down in a in a firm but
professional way. But I think that the what we
should be doing is actually doing that as allies in the
room. When you notice interruptions,
(26:21):
do something. Don't wait for the person to
have to do it themselves. So actually wait.
I just want to hear what I don'tknow.
Karen has to say. Again, it doesn't have to be
aggressive. Just a quick read redirect like,
oh, oh, let's hang on. And it just normalizes.
Normalizes that people finishingtheir sentences matter.
(26:42):
It matters. Well, and that sort of leads on
to facilitators. If you're facilitating meetings,
be active. So that's one great tip is
really roll back to that. And you're like, right, it
doesn't have to be aggressive, although I do think that there
is an A way to raise it at the start of the meeting.
Let's make rules for this meeting or with a group.
Like the rules of how we're going to communicate is we're
(27:03):
going to finish what we say and if someone interrupts, we'll
just pause and hand the mic backto the person who should have
it. Like really set up and get
everyone to agree to those shared rules can be great.
Second thing about facilitation is calling on people like if
you're noticing, there are a couple of voices that are heard
a lot more and some people do not interrupt or do not jump in.
(27:25):
They can't find the gaps. It's not the communication.
So say, hey, did you have anything you'd like to add to
that? Embrace pauses.
It's OK to pause for a bit and just let people process and
think so that there is time for everyone to and, and again,
normalize saying, I haven't got a thought yet, but I'd like to
come back in 2 minutes. Like let's just be really clear
(27:45):
about the different styles of communication.
And as a facilitator, take your job seriously.
It's not just to sit there and be in the top seat is actually
to make sure you're getting the maximum value out of the people
in the room. And that means being active with
how you manage it. I think that flows really nicely
to that unanimous rule thinking.And Jacinda Ardern did it,
didn't she? And she effectively ran her
(28:07):
meetings, like board meetings. And in a board meeting, because
of the way governance works and voting, that has to happen.
Everybody has to have a say and that's minuted.
And so the way she would run hermeeting is she would effectively
ensure that every single person had shared that perspective.
And that's on the facilitating and calling on people, isn't it?
Is that you actually have to call on every single person
(28:31):
before a decision making on something happens.
And even if that perspective isn't, you know, folded into the
outcome or or it is one that's kind of shelved for now, fine.
The point is is that you're normalizing everyone having some
airtime. I have a friend who joined a
board recently and she was pretty surprised.
I think I've mentioned this before, that the culture of the
(28:51):
board was every board member hadto participate in every single
discussion and bring their perspective regardless of what
it was. And she found that really
intimidating to start. And I was like, of course you
should like, what are you doing there if you're not
participating in and really deeply understanding all these
different things and sharing your perspective?
And I mean, obviously she felt the same, but it was just like
(29:13):
quite, I think quite a differentway of raising that rule and
that expectation. And I wonder if we should all
see meetings like that. Like if I'm here, I should have
a perspective on that. And I think that leads to better
meetings anyway, because it forces you to have to create or
come up with a perception or an opinion, which means you're
(29:35):
going to do your homework, whichmeans you're going to come
better prepared. So I feel like sort of operating
under that assumption. I really like this one is
something that I this is sorry, did I interrupt you?
No. Listen, you introvert, we have
two points left. Let's go.
I'd like to pass the floor back to me.
No, this one is 1. That's very close to my heart
(29:58):
because it happened to me recently and I gosh, I feel like
we're old people who repeat stories now.
But I went along to a startup event and I was one of two women
mentors and we were meant to be spread around the room to talk
to ask great questions and help newer startup founders
understand a little bit more, find the next steps.
Great stuff. I come from a product
(30:20):
background. I come from a user experience
background, growth background. The other woman in the room came
from a quite different background.
When we got put into the topics,the two of us, the only two
women in the room got put into the HR group.
And I, surprisingly for me, sortof went what?
(30:41):
And then just kind of went with it.
She went and like really was like, dudes, dudes, we're going
to have a conversation about this.
And I loved her and we've becomegood friends.
But this is something that we sometimes unconscious bias is
real. And the guys in the room didn't
realize they'd done it. They just went straight to like,
ladies, you'll do the HR stuff. And all of them felt like really
(31:02):
comfortable with that because ofcourse, in their heads, that's
where we both set. And when we told them that is
actually not where we said, theywere really apologetic and
changed it. And it was great.
And I feel like these conversations need to be had,
but we could avoid that altogether by thinking about why
we direct to different thing questions and different topics
(31:23):
to different people. And if you're starting to
direct, you know, social club culture, comms, well-being
questions to women, maybe switchthat and ask those same
questions to the men in the roomand maybe pass the mic that way
instead. That stuff makes a big
difference. Because I've got to tell you, it
(31:44):
was so offensive to be like we were mortified and we had given
up our time. And it was just such an obvious
assumption that we will like, bebetter, but obviously they did a
great job. But yeah, that stuff, it kind of
goes back to what we talked about at the start, that becomes
professional baggage that you are only ever called on for this
stuff. You never called on for your
(32:05):
finance knowledge, you never called on for your expertise.
And whatever it might be, you'realways the culture girl, you
know? Well, and then you end up being
pigeonholed. It's exact it again, because
when you do speak in in meetings, it's an opportunity to
introduce a narrative about yourself, your personal brand,
and that is someone else tellingyour story.
And so I love that you were ableto correct that or, or the other
(32:26):
person on your behalf. And in retro and
retrospectively, you thought, yeah, gosh, what?
What? I founded I just for a very rare
moment clamped up and didn't sayanything.
Oh gosh, yeah, cringe. I just cringed.
OK, last point for you, Ally andAlly Ship.
Thank you so much for listening in, by the way, close the
(32:48):
informal gap. And what we mean by that is
women tend to do things quite efficiently quite often because
that is how we're socialized is to get shit done.
And we deliver and we show up tothe meetings, we take the notes
that we need to take or we get the information we need to take
and we get on with it and get out of there.
What studies have shown is that not only men are having pre
(33:08):
meetings, so they're having the meeting before the meeting.
We talked a little bit about that in the pre wire, but
they're equally lingering and networking.
So this is actually about we kind of talked to women about
engaging in those things becausethat is part of work and
politics and navigating workplace.
But we would love to invite allies to consider to shut that
(33:30):
stuff down, ensure that actuallymultiple people are part of any
pre meetings or informal discussions both before meetings
and then shut down anything afterwards.
If we're still talking about themeeting and decisions and
critical topics after the meeting, well it should have
happened in the meeting so I know what happens, but let's try
and involve more perspectives than just your typical go TOS.
(33:51):
That's it. And I think with that as well,
be aware of the topics that you're casually chatting about
because I think we've both been in rooms quite regularly where
the sports chat suddenly stops the moment you join in the
conversation or the, there's just like pro chat happening.
And it's very uncomfortable whenyou're like, oh, I, I, I
actually feel like most women are pretty comfortable engaging
(34:13):
in that. We try and step in, but then it
doesn't like no one wants to talk to us about it.
Whereas and I think on the flip side, if women are talking about
things that are relevant to them.
And I even my dad got told off recently for this because he
came out with a bunch of my friends and a few of them
actually, my mum and one other were parents.
Three out of four of us were not.
(34:33):
Three out of five of us were notparents.
And the two parents having no, my mum and dad are both parents
and one of my friends was and two of us weren't.
So they're talking about something related to kids.
And afterwards, dad said, oh, there's just so much kid chat.
It wasn't relevant to me. And my mom was like, well, you
are a parent. And actually a lot of them
weren't, so you can engage if they can engage.
(34:55):
And it was just such an interesting that he immediately
pigeon holder as a girl chat anddidn't want to engage.
And I was like, go mom, get that.
Yeah, get that out there. Go mom.
Go Mom. I love it.
OK, well hopefully everyone found those tips helpful for
special International Women's Day edition.
We're about all waking up in themorning and doing everything we
(35:16):
can to to close all the gaps because ultimately we have
better outcomes as a society, asa workplace organizations where
all perspectives are heard and celebrated and championed.
Frankly, we make better decisions.
And I think all we have to do islook at what is going on around
us to see that there are fewer women in positions of power and
influence at the moment. And it is problematic.
So thank you so much for listening.
(35:37):
And please share this episode toevery woman that you know who's
struggling to find her voice right now.
We give hopefully we give some really practical tips.
Go ahead and action any of thoseif it's you and as an ally,
share it with your managers, your colleagues, share it
around. I think we've taken a pretty non
confrontational approach here. We celebrate everyone who is
looking to, I suppose, foster a more equitable, equitable world.
(36:01):
So thank you for sharing this episode.
Any last words, Nat? Yeah, final hot tip, if you go
to tell some woman in your life that she lacks confidence, stop
and think about what you actually mean by that and what
specific behavior. Oh, she's writing notes while I
say this. She's writing notes because
being intelligent, stop and think about what specific
(36:23):
behaviors they are displaying that you think they should
change. And then secondly, do you think
they should change them or are they things that they just might
do differently from you? And is this a conversation that
may not need to be had? Yes, love the tip.
Love the tip. Take care everyone.
Again, we will reach out at hello@powersuit.com and we will
(36:45):
catch you next time. Bye.
Welcome to Power Up, the podcastthat uncovers the unique
challenges women leaders face today.
Join your hosts Nat and Kristen as we dive into the tough topics
and provide actionable insights you can apply right now.
Don't forget to hit subscribe soyou don't miss any episodes.
(00:38):
We want to chat a little bit about how to find your voice
when you are a minority. We work with a lot of women who
are minorities and we happen to be in an event one time and
there were probably 60% of men in the room.
And normally when we go into an audience and we work with a lot
of women, they tend to be reallyengaged.
They throw their hand up, they're throwing out answers.
(01:00):
And we found this market difference of the women in the
room were entirely silent and itwas the men, fabulous allies who
were engaged. And we just found that really so
interesting, wasn't it, that that that happened to us at that
event? Well, I was actually thinking it
wasn't just us who noticed, someone else actually called it
(01:22):
out as well. But I think we noticed that in
all these events, by the way, women focused events like the
men in the room are there to tryand create better spaces, more
inclusive spaces. So this is like even more
specific that this is when everyone's on the same team.
But I've even noticed it, even if there's like a handful of men
(01:43):
in a room full of women, that the amount, the vibe changes
dramatically. And the allies who turn up are
very brave and they are engaged and they are contributing.
And women change how they behaveand significantly drop how we
engage. Your studies show, which was I
(02:05):
found this, that after we did that event, but women speak up
to 75% less when outnumbered, whereas men experience no
participation drop when they're in the minority.
I'm not entirely, I don't entirely agree with that because
we've done international Women'sDay events for a few years now
and there usually are a handful of men in the crowd and you can
tell they are their participation absolutely drops.
(02:28):
Like I think so anyway, I've noticed that.
So I'm not sure you know where that I mean I.
Kind of, I suppose it's hard because we don't know how they'd
usually participate in my optionof the men who turn up, I mean,
who are very aware of not of being inclusive.
So they probably they are more likely to be people who adapt to
this situation. Yeah, yeah, they definitely ask
(02:48):
should I even be here? Do I belong here?
It's like, yes, yes, you do come, come and just listen and
learn, which is great, but it is, it is real.
And I was reading that it takes a, and I've heard this on boards
as well, that it takes a super majority of women before women
get equal airtime under majorityrule decision making.
So let's say a board of six people, they're saying that
(03:11):
there has to be a majority of women.
So 4 of the six have to be womenwhere they get equal air time
when it comes to actually agreeing on a decision that has
to be made or voicing their opinion on sub decision.
This is one of those really nuanced parts about the work we
do, and I love this conversationbecause I feel like I have it
quite often. Where if you, based on your
(03:34):
experience of the world, you only get to see a small fraction
of it. So if you are someone who is in
a meeting, like let's say you work in my team and I'm the
manager and I'm a man and I'm like, Kristen just never speaks
up in meetings. I have no concept that when you
are in a different group, you might be the biggest talker in
that group. So I have this perception of you
(03:55):
as being quiet and introverted, but actually what I have not
done is create a space where youfeel like you can speak.
But I'm not aware of that because there are other people
in the team who are very comfortable in that environment
and they're speaking. And I think this is what we try
and explain sometimes when organizations say we don't have
any problems. We just don't know why women
aren't putting their hands up for leadership roles or why
(04:17):
they're leaving or. We, we, we're trying to.
Figure out why they're so under confident and those are the
wrong conversations to be having.
The conversation actually needs to be what is it in the
environment that actually gets people contributing equally?
And it's nuanced and it's different for everyone.
It's not women versus men versusnon binary.
(04:38):
It's like everyone has their ownstyles.
But what we've noticed and what the stats point to, because we
tend to study male, female, is that there is a difference when
we're all put in a room together.
I think it's and we are the lastto be bashing at all, but I'm
going to raise some terms that we are well aware of because I
(04:59):
think what comes along with thisis like anything education.
And so we are most of us are aware of the term mansplaining
or men spreading and men taking up space or explaining things to
you that you very well know a great deal about, perhaps more.
But there is some other terms that have gone viral in recent
times. One called heap heating.
(05:21):
Oh man, that repeats. And this happened to an
astrophysicist. And she was like all of my
incredibly brilliant physicist astrophysicist, you know, you
know, space women are being their ideas.
The fabulous ideas are being simply repeated in meetings and
therefore clear claimed by men. And that was a tweet that went
viral in 2017. So I've never heard of it
(05:43):
before. So I think awareness around that
one, and I hate to say it, but an interruption is, is, is a
thing and are three times more likely to interrupt a woman than
another man. So it's a thing and.
Also three times more likely to interrupt a woman than they are
a man speaking. I was thinking about this
(06:03):
because we are doing this week'snewsletter next.
I'm not even going to try and figure out what's coming out.
We are but talking about the personality tests we've just
done. Then we talk about it on the
podcast too. And I am an interrupter.
And I've realized that that is part of my personality type,
that I move fast, I like energy,I think quickly.
(06:25):
And I've wondered even just writing the newsletter this week
about those in this particular personality test, the if there
is a tendency for women to fit into some of those categories in
higher percentages and mean to fit into other categories and
higher percentages. And, and that the the, the,
(06:48):
because I just came up for conversation with someone who
has been told she's unconfident a lot of times.
And I'm like, do you feel under confident or do you feel that
maybe your communication style is different?
And she's like, I've never thought of it.
I just assumed I must be. And I just wonder if there's
something in this about like we might fit in those different
categories, nature, nurture, whocares slightly in different
(07:09):
percentages. And of course, of course, the
workplace norm is mean because women have only really recently
become visible in every part of workplaces.
And so we've got this. Idea of how we behave.
That is focused around norms formen, which may be more likely to
be in specific types of personalities.
That was it's just something that struck me because I've
never had a problem interruptingor being interrupted, and I
(07:33):
think I'm a man. And, and I wonder, I mean, I
again, I, what I think is reallyinteresting, you'd mention norms
which are clearly formed both in, you know, as in the
environment that we operate in both at home and in the
workplace. And I would wager that the men
in my generation were still raised in a household where the
(07:56):
mum had a slightly lower hierarchical status in terms of
decision making and a voice a different in a different way.
They held different forms of power.
But they possibly would have viewed behavior where the
husband or father, and I know I'm generalizing it, but we're
talking about, you know, 40 years ago, the man still had the
(08:16):
final say. I mean, this was being taught in
churches and in institutions of like the man is the leader of a
house and culturally that was accepted.
And so I think again, these are men in the workplace today that
unfortunately had that start in life.
And therefore, I think you're right.
Personality, yes, but equally that behavior will have been
modeled for some time. But I think it's changing.
(08:36):
It is changing. It is changing.
No, I agree. Well, and, and actually, I think
now we're talking about our generation being parented in
that dynamic that I think I I'veheard that even with people
doing pre marriage counseling and just the assumptions that of
the gendered roles that had never been examined.
It's just like so ingrained in how they were raised that the
(08:58):
men feel like of course the woman's going to take time off,
of course she's going to finish working or whatever it is that
they just like assumed is the case.
So, yeah, could equally be any of those things.
And and it is just interesting that I, I didn't realize that
there were three times men were three times more likely to
interrupt women. And again, as all the stuff is
so unconscious and you may leavea meeting if you are a man
(09:22):
going, oh, that was a really robust, interesting
conversation. And the woman around you may
leave saying wow no woman. Every time a woman spoke she got
interrupted and have perceived that exact same interaction
incredibly differently and left going.
There's no point even trying to chat in this environment.
Well, I think that's really interesting because it's often
(09:43):
a, an experience we have at somestage in our careers or lives
where we have been, I suppose, taught and, or hurt as in terms
of we've tried to say something and have been interrupted or
there's been a pattern that's happened or something that's
happened where we then have thisbelief of ourselves.
(10:03):
And I think not only do we have this environment that wasn't
designed, many environments still to this day aren't
designed with women in mind and having their perspective,
perspectives championed. But equally, we have learned, we
have this learned behavior, liketo your point of the confidence,
she's believed that because she's been told that So and I
(10:26):
and what I'm getting to is womenhave a belief that maybe their
ideas aren't good enough or theyhave to be.
They have to be perfectly formedbefore spoken speaking them, or
they have to have a certain voice or certain behavior when
they're sharing those perspectives.
So in the essence, even if the room isn't it, the gender isn't
a barrier in the room. They're holding themselves back,
(10:48):
which is complicated. And this is that we talk a lot
about professional baggage and you could be in the world's most
inclusive, well facilitated room.
And if you have been, if you areused to coming from rooms where
your voice isn't heard, you're interrupted, everyone speaks
quickly, there's no facilitation, you behave
differently. And so even if you're doing
(11:09):
everything right as a facilitator, people in the room
will be bringing that baggage with them.
And that's where the stuff is really hard because you could
walk outgoing, but I did everything right.
Why didn't they behave? And it's not A + B = C There's a
whole bunch of these really nuanced factors that come into
it that mean that we have to unpick and unwork through.
So yeah, this is this is something that is worth everyone
(11:30):
really thinking through, A, whatam I contributing?
And B, what baggage am I bringing into these meetings
that maybe I can let go of or into these conversations that
maybe I I can not? Make the assumption when I
arrive this is going to be the same and treat each one as a
fresh start. But equally, if people aren't
behaving the way you expect themto be, get really curious about
(11:52):
what may they may be receiving in the meeting or the
conversation. So for Special International
Women's Day edition, we just wanted to deep dive in some tips
both for women and for allies around this finding your voice
or enabling others to find theirvoice in these spaces.
So I'm going to start and I'm going to start with one that we
(12:13):
talked. About you for finding your voice
and just stepping in and talking, I applaud you.
Kristen, you're really intimidating that.
But great from you. I actually said this to Brenda
Goff the other day. She did a really good shot and I
said good from you. And she's like, whoa.
And I was like, Oh no, that's just a saying I use all the
time. But I managed to do the absolute
(12:34):
wrong way of announcing that That sounded so patronizing.
I was. Now it's just a friend term.
We're like good from you. I used to use that term a lot
until my friend said it was really offensive and it wasn't
coming from I genuinely meant it.
Like good for you when? I said about other people like
great from them, great from you.But then yes, I turned out
(12:56):
context. Yeah, and those.
Yeah, no, I put my foot in it again.
OK, This is one we talked about quite a bit, and this is prep,
prep, prep, prep. Prep equals confidence.
You're going into a meeting, there's something going on where
your presence is expected. Therefore, some preparation is
highly recommended. What is the meeting about?
Do you hold a particular view? Is there a point you want to get
(13:18):
across, a perspective, a question you want to ask?
Women who feel prepared speak more and like full stop, women
who feel prepared speak more. So get prepared.
There's a number of ways you cando it.
Is there agenda? Read it a little bit of research
based on some key talking pointsof that fabulous pre wire.
(13:39):
The meeting we had Shelly Lombard deliver a fabulous mini
master class to our to our para suitors and she talked about
before the meeting go and she called up pre wiring.
Go and chat with different decision makers and attendees of
that meeting. Get a sense of what's going to
be tabled, what's going on where, what are their ideas
(14:00):
about this and maybe float your idea as well just to get some
feedback or to get some advocates.
So prep equals confidence. I also loved her tip to speak
first in the meeting. Ask your question this because
the number of times she I loved how she interpreted this, she's
she left it for later. And I think and so someone else
asked the same question 1st. And I think a lot of women in
(14:21):
that boat think, Oh, that means it was a really stupid question.
Whereas she was like, damn, I need to get my question out
first. So everyone interviews with me,
which I really liked. The other person coming to mind
of the mini master classes we'vehad is Stu Van Rai on confidence
and how we all try and tackle confidence.
But actually competence is what leads to confidence and prep
(14:42):
gives you that competence. So for the members who are
listening, go check out those two mini master classes because
they will give you a big step forward in that meeting Prep.
Second one, claim physical space.
This is again, gosh, we have some really great mini master
classes that I was just thinkingabout the the one we did on the
brain body connection and how sometimes our bodies are
(15:04):
actually giving us all the signals and that we aren't
feeling confident and good. And actually learning how to
reframe how you sit and hold yourself very subtly has a
massive impact on how you claim physical space and how you are
perceived and and how your brainworks too.
It gets you down from that stress levels.
So one of the easiest tips that we have when you are wanting to
(15:28):
interrupt in a meeting or jump in is to signal that you're
going to lean in, turn your camera on, turn mute off,
whatever it is that you switch up in that moment.
I clicked switch up in that moment to indicate I'm about to
speak. We all pick up on those social
cues. So face in, lean forward, change
(15:50):
your stance when you're about tospeak, look around you.
And if you're someone who hasn'treally considered this before,
in your next meeting virtually and in person, look around at
what people are doing before they speak so that you can see
those little cues and start practicing them.
And when you're leaning in and when you're facing forward and
really engage locking in with the table, it will reduce
(16:13):
interruptions. Like we all know what it's like
when someone looks down, when they're pausing, when they're
like for too long that people jump in.
So really, if you are a pause atwhich is absolutely fine, how do
you hold the room so people don't interrupt?
That's that's something that we can all think about.
Yeah, I think posture does signal authority.
And while you were chatting, I rolled my shoulders back and
(16:35):
leaned in a little bit. And not only and to
Kimberlucci's mini master class is I felt a sense of I was a
strange feeling. It was almost like calm by just
sitting up with my shoulders up.And I I wouldn't describe it as
confidence, but it felt like a sense of readiness.
And I don't know, Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
(16:55):
Yeah, love the love the posture run.
OK, another tip, tip #3 commit, we love this as an action is
commit to one idea, perspective,question per meeting rule.
Create a rule for yourself whereagain, your presence is, it's
expensive, it is your time. You need a return on investment
for that time, either in the wayof sharing your perspective and
(17:18):
enabling kind of an outcome thataligns with where your thinking
is, but equally personal brand, even if it's just a a question
and you want to be seen and and visible in a meeting, which is
why Shelly was like, speak first, but commit to it,
actually commit to it. Say, look, I'm spending my time
here. It's a valuable resource.
And so this is I am committing to one idea, one perspective,
(17:39):
one question that is a rule and actually building a habit into
that. I always find this so
fascinating. Before our power match peer
coaching, one of the big barriers people have is do I
have anything to add? Like if someone's bringing truck
challenge or has something top of mind, what do I know?
And every single time afterwardsthey come out going whoa.
The other person's like whoa. They really helped me with a
(18:00):
fresh perspective. And I think sometimes we forget
the thing that we think is just like often so far out of the
rounds of what other people are thinking about that you will
have something unique to share. And I think that leads us to my
next one, which is if you are introverted like me.
We did a test one time and I think you did land in the middle
(18:22):
of the scale, but but anyway, I digress.
I think psychologists are actually creating a food.
A torovert or something? Yeah, and that you can jump
between. I think that probably is me.
This is something I am loud. This is a hot tip for anyone.
You can be introverted and loud.Those are two separate things.
It's how you energy. But you don't have to be loud to
be heard. And I just think this is such a
(18:45):
strong reminder because I feel like this is you see, all the
time. And actually after one of our
personal board of directors events, someone gave us some
feedback. And she said as an introvert and
as a quiet person at the end, you know what it's like, the
rooms are buzzy. There's so many people.
They just had this epic connection with a bunch of
people. They're like fizzing.
(19:06):
They're firing off popcorns of like, this is my insight.
This is this. There's A and she said, I felt
like I did it wrong because we sat down and we followed the
agenda and we did our bit and then we formed a strong
connection and we were happy to leave.
And I felt like I had missed thememo that we were all meant to
be like engaging as a group, as the wider big, you know, 80 odd
(19:28):
person group. And and that we weren't having
as much fun and that everyone else is doing this.
And I thought, oh, isn't that sointeresting that interpretation
because as far as I'm concerned,she did it perfectly.
She turned up, she connected with people, she shared what she
wanted to share, and then she moved on with her day.
But it is so that and Kyla, my girlfriend's given me this
(19:48):
feedback too. Of if you introverts and
extroverts in a room, neither isadapting.
Like neither is like speaking more or less or whatever.
But when you are the loud group,you form the culture because you
are dominant when you're allowed, and it leads people who
are less loud to feel like they're not contributing or
can't. So just the biggest piece of
advice I can give for people trying to find their voice if
(20:10):
they don't have a loud one or don't like to use it very often.
Make every word count. Like you do not have to speak up
a lot. Silence is powerful and a few
well placed words are very powerful.
Again, Ashley Poholic, who is anincredible power suit expert,
and she did a mini master class on exactly this, how to
(20:31):
interrupt and find your voice inmeetings and was very clear that
that waffle detracts. We all know what it's like,
which I'm probably doing now. Waffling.
You end up being like move along, move along, whereas a
couple of well well thought out points, bam, powerful move on.
You know, it was interesting, I recall coaching someone who was
an introvert and she was given the feedback that she didn't
(20:53):
speak up enough. Her confidence was low and
therefore they were holding her back for the next, from the next
step in her career. And she was really hurt by this
because she disagreed. She felt confident, she felt
like she knew her stuff technically.
And I, I started this blends with one of our other points as
I started to ask about her body language, because body language
can give a huge cue from introverts.
(21:13):
If you're looking down, if you she, she doesn't always like
looking in people's eyes, fine. But I said it's really important
that you take some notes becausethat is a, it appear.
It's a, it gives off a message that you are engaged.
And if you don't want to always look up and into someone's eyes,
find a point on the wall. It could look like you are
thinking or considering something, but taking notes is a
(21:36):
real sign of engagement and allows you to put your eyes down
on that piece of paper. So yeah, I love that I.
Was going to say, since you got your glasses and then you've
started, do you start taking paper notes recently?
Like in the last couple of months since you started taking
paper notes? Oh no, you just draw pictures.
Those are notes. Are they?
You look way more intelligent every time I'm on a meeting with
(21:57):
you and you like go to write a note, I'm like, she's really
smart. I wonder what she's now you're
showing me. Wait, I had to take a picture of
this to put up because this is ahilarious.
These are hilarious, Kristen. I hope there's nothing.
I hope there's nothing. I can't don't.
(22:18):
I cut chat. I chat, I chat one.
What are you doing? OK, I am taking.
I'm really smart, no? There's my You look like.
A My yellow pen. OK, my last point, my last
point, find your person. And this is something that like
think back to a time in a meeting where someone championed
your perspective or called you out and asked for your
(22:40):
perspective because it's likely that they knew your work, they
knew you're an expert in this area, or they knew you took an
interest in this area. I've been in a room where that's
happened before and immediately there's a sense of psychological
safety about that. Now that was luck.
I happened to have an ally in the room who had some influence
and was able to include me on the conversations.
What I'm suggesting here is to look at who's in the meeting and
(23:04):
find deliberately foster a relationship with a couple of
allies. Let them know what you're
interested in sharing. This again goes back to the pre
wire the meeting, give the person look.
I'd really love to share this perspective.
I've got some ideas on it. So if you kind of lose your feet
and have a little bit of wobble in the meeting, that person
(23:25):
should be able to call on you and just say, I think, you know,
Rachel's got a great idea or perspective on this.
What was that that you were saying?
Again Rach, you know that so youcan deliberately go and do this
in the pre wire and or as you are building relationships with
people is again find a person inthe room that is willing to
include you and to call out yourknowledge and expertise.
(23:48):
I love that. And even if you're not having a
wobble, some people find it really hard to find the gap to
jump in and just having your gapFinder, like I'm a great gap
Finder, I'm very comfortable, like Kristen had a point on this
or such and such. They'll just do it for you.
So find that person. And even that just takes that
effort off you to, if that's notyour natural instinct, go for
(24:09):
that. Let's move on to if you are an
ally in the room, what you can do.
This is one of our all time favorite tips.
And this comes from Obama's White House.
And as Michelle and Barack Obama, we identify very strongly
with anything related to this. When Obama took office, he had a
majority of top aides were men, classic, although he actually
(24:32):
had about a third who are women,which is probably pretty cool
for that time. But those women were getting
talked over and their ideas werebeing attributed to the men and
the team. So actually those women got
together and introduced the concept of amplification within
meetings. So when one woman made a point,
another would repeat it out loudand attribute it.
So I want to come back to what Kristen, Sarah said about this
(24:55):
or great idea Sarah, I want to add to that.
And so hearing it twice by really doubling down on this is
the person who said it. And I'm building on that idea.
It's impossible to ignore and impossible to steal.
And that meant that Obama, without knowing that this is
even happening, noticed and started calling on women more.
And I actually had an example inthe weekend because we helped my
(25:17):
friend move house and we were figuring out where to put the
art. And I said, oh, you could put an
Oval mirror here, which of course no one listened to.
And then someone else like 5 minutes later said we could put
an Oval mirror here. And I was like.
What? And then she was like, I was
like, are you woman's playing me?
But she, she actually missed it.But she said, Oh, I'm building
(25:37):
on your idea. And I was like, that's exactly
what we do. And just naming that of like, oh
building on that idea totally changes the dynamic.
Building on. That we were all talking at each
other, so no one must have blamed that.
Building on Nats design expertise, I love it.
OK, this is great. And I watched a video yesterday
on a woman sharing it was a realstory and it was a woman that
(26:01):
was sharing the words to use when you get interrupted.
And something like I'd love to finish my point and then I
would, you know, be happy to hear your perspective and you
know, shuts the other person down in a in a firm but
professional way. But I think that the what we
should be doing is actually doing that as allies in the
room. When you notice interruptions,
(26:21):
do something. Don't wait for the person to
have to do it themselves. So actually wait.
I just want to hear what I don'tknow.
Karen has to say. Again, it doesn't have to be
aggressive. Just a quick read redirect like,
oh, oh, let's hang on. And it just normalizes.
Normalizes that people finishingtheir sentences matter.
(26:42):
It matters. Well, and that sort of leads on
to facilitators. If you're facilitating meetings,
be active. So that's one great tip is
really roll back to that. And you're like, right, it
doesn't have to be aggressive, although I do think that there
is an A way to raise it at the start of the meeting.
Let's make rules for this meeting or with a group.
Like the rules of how we're going to communicate is we're
(27:03):
going to finish what we say and if someone interrupts, we'll
just pause and hand the mic backto the person who should have
it. Like really set up and get
everyone to agree to those shared rules can be great.
Second thing about facilitation is calling on people like if
you're noticing, there are a couple of voices that are heard
a lot more and some people do not interrupt or do not jump in.
(27:25):
They can't find the gaps. It's not the communication.
So say, hey, did you have anything you'd like to add to
that? Embrace pauses.
It's OK to pause for a bit and just let people process and
think so that there is time for everyone to and, and again,
normalize saying, I haven't got a thought yet, but I'd like to
come back in 2 minutes. Like let's just be really clear
(27:45):
about the different styles of communication.
And as a facilitator, take your job seriously.
It's not just to sit there and be in the top seat is actually
to make sure you're getting the maximum value out of the people
in the room. And that means being active with
how you manage it. I think that flows really nicely
to that unanimous rule thinking.And Jacinda Ardern did it,
didn't she? And she effectively ran her
(28:07):
meetings, like board meetings. And in a board meeting, because
of the way governance works and voting, that has to happen.
Everybody has to have a say and that's minuted.
And so the way she would run hermeeting is she would effectively
ensure that every single person had shared that perspective.
And that's on the facilitating and calling on people, isn't it?
Is that you actually have to call on every single person
(28:31):
before a decision making on something happens.
And even if that perspective isn't, you know, folded into the
outcome or or it is one that's kind of shelved for now, fine.
The point is is that you're normalizing everyone having some
airtime. I have a friend who joined a
board recently and she was pretty surprised.
I think I've mentioned this before, that the culture of the
(28:51):
board was every board member hadto participate in every single
discussion and bring their perspective regardless of what
it was. And she found that really
intimidating to start. And I was like, of course you
should like, what are you doing there if you're not
participating in and really deeply understanding all these
different things and sharing your perspective?
And I mean, obviously she felt the same, but it was just like
(29:13):
quite, I think quite a differentway of raising that rule and
that expectation. And I wonder if we should all
see meetings like that. Like if I'm here, I should have
a perspective on that. And I think that leads to better
meetings anyway, because it forces you to have to create or
come up with a perception or an opinion, which means you're
(29:35):
going to do your homework, whichmeans you're going to come
better prepared. So I feel like sort of operating
under that assumption. I really like this one is
something that I this is sorry, did I interrupt you?
No. Listen, you introvert, we have
two points left. Let's go.
I'd like to pass the floor back to me.
No, this one is 1. That's very close to my heart
(29:58):
because it happened to me recently and I gosh, I feel like
we're old people who repeat stories now.
But I went along to a startup event and I was one of two women
mentors and we were meant to be spread around the room to talk
to ask great questions and help newer startup founders
understand a little bit more, find the next steps.
Great stuff. I come from a product
(30:20):
background. I come from a user experience
background, growth background. The other woman in the room came
from a quite different background.
When we got put into the topics,the two of us, the only two
women in the room got put into the HR group.
And I, surprisingly for me, sortof went what?
(30:41):
And then just kind of went with it.
She went and like really was like, dudes, dudes, we're going
to have a conversation about this.
And I loved her and we've becomegood friends.
But this is something that we sometimes unconscious bias is
real. And the guys in the room didn't
realize they'd done it. They just went straight to like,
ladies, you'll do the HR stuff. And all of them felt like really
(31:02):
comfortable with that because ofcourse, in their heads, that's
where we both set. And when we told them that is
actually not where we said, theywere really apologetic and
changed it. And it was great.
And I feel like these conversations need to be had,
but we could avoid that altogether by thinking about why
we direct to different thing questions and different topics
(31:23):
to different people. And if you're starting to
direct, you know, social club culture, comms, well-being
questions to women, maybe switchthat and ask those same
questions to the men in the roomand maybe pass the mic that way
instead. That stuff makes a big
difference. Because I've got to tell you, it
(31:44):
was so offensive to be like we were mortified and we had given
up our time. And it was just such an obvious
assumption that we will like, bebetter, but obviously they did a
great job. But yeah, that stuff, it kind of
goes back to what we talked about at the start, that becomes
professional baggage that you are only ever called on for this
stuff. You never called on for your
(32:05):
finance knowledge, you never called on for your expertise.
And whatever it might be, you'realways the culture girl, you
know? Well, and then you end up being
pigeonholed. It's exact it again, because
when you do speak in in meetings, it's an opportunity to
introduce a narrative about yourself, your personal brand,
and that is someone else tellingyour story.
And so I love that you were ableto correct that or, or the other
(32:26):
person on your behalf. And in retro and
retrospectively, you thought, yeah, gosh, what?
What? I founded I just for a very rare
moment clamped up and didn't sayanything.
Oh gosh, yeah, cringe. I just cringed.
OK, last point for you, Ally andAlly Ship.
Thank you so much for listening in, by the way, close the
(32:48):
informal gap. And what we mean by that is
women tend to do things quite efficiently quite often because
that is how we're socialized is to get shit done.
And we deliver and we show up tothe meetings, we take the notes
that we need to take or we get the information we need to take
and we get on with it and get out of there.
What studies have shown is that not only men are having pre
(33:08):
meetings, so they're having the meeting before the meeting.
We talked a little bit about that in the pre wire, but
they're equally lingering and networking.
So this is actually about we kind of talked to women about
engaging in those things becausethat is part of work and
politics and navigating workplace.
But we would love to invite allies to consider to shut that
(33:30):
stuff down, ensure that actuallymultiple people are part of any
pre meetings or informal discussions both before meetings
and then shut down anything afterwards.
If we're still talking about themeeting and decisions and
critical topics after the meeting, well it should have
happened in the meeting so I know what happens, but let's try
and involve more perspectives than just your typical go TOS.
(33:51):
That's it. And I think with that as well,
be aware of the topics that you're casually chatting about
because I think we've both been in rooms quite regularly where
the sports chat suddenly stops the moment you join in the
conversation or the, there's just like pro chat happening.
And it's very uncomfortable whenyou're like, oh, I, I, I
actually feel like most women are pretty comfortable engaging
(34:13):
in that. We try and step in, but then it
doesn't like no one wants to talk to us about it.
Whereas and I think on the flip side, if women are talking about
things that are relevant to them.
And I even my dad got told off recently for this because he
came out with a bunch of my friends and a few of them
actually, my mum and one other were parents.
Three out of four of us were not.
(34:33):
Three out of five of us were notparents.
And the two parents having no, my mum and dad are both parents
and one of my friends was and two of us weren't.
So they're talking about something related to kids.
And afterwards, dad said, oh, there's just so much kid chat.
It wasn't relevant to me. And my mom was like, well, you
are a parent. And actually a lot of them
weren't, so you can engage if they can engage.
(34:55):
And it was just such an interesting that he immediately
pigeon holder as a girl chat anddidn't want to engage.
And I was like, go mom, get that.
Yeah, get that out there. Go mom.
Go Mom. I love it.
OK, well hopefully everyone found those tips helpful for
special International Women's Day edition.
We're about all waking up in themorning and doing everything we
(35:16):
can to to close all the gaps because ultimately we have
better outcomes as a society, asa workplace organizations where
all perspectives are heard and celebrated and championed.
Frankly, we make better decisions.
And I think all we have to do islook at what is going on around
us to see that there are fewer women in positions of power and
influence at the moment. And it is problematic.
So thank you so much for listening.
(35:37):
And please share this episode toevery woman that you know who's
struggling to find her voice right now.
We give hopefully we give some really practical tips.
Go ahead and action any of thoseif it's you and as an ally,
share it with your managers, your colleagues, share it
around. I think we've taken a pretty non
confrontational approach here. We celebrate everyone who is
looking to, I suppose, foster a more equitable, equitable world.
(36:01):
So thank you for sharing this episode.
Any last words, Nat? Yeah, final hot tip, if you go
to tell some woman in your life that she lacks confidence, stop
and think about what you actually mean by that and what
specific behavior. Oh, she's writing notes while I
say this. She's writing notes because
being intelligent, stop and think about what specific
(36:23):
behaviors they are displaying that you think they should
change. And then secondly, do you think
they should change them or are they things that they just might
do differently from you? And is this a conversation that
may not need to be had? Yes, love the tip.
Love the tip. Take care everyone.
Again, we will reach out at hello@powersuit.com and we will
(36:45):
catch you next time. Bye.
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