November 26, 2025 • 46 mins
Andrew McMasters is an actor, director, and consultant who helps leaders and teams strengthen communication, collaboration, and presence through the power of performance. As the author of Listening Without Agenda, he blends acting techniques with business strategy to create authentic, engaging, and effective leadership.
A Few Quotes From This Episode
- “Actors learn to use their bodies to communicate. Leaders forget that their body is one of the tools they use.”
- “Make your scene partner look good. That is what creates true collaboration.”
- “In improv, you cannot hold on to your agenda. You have to build something together.”
Resources Mentioned in This Episode
- Andrew's Website
- Book: Slow Horses
About The International Leadership Association (ILA)
- The ILA was created in 1999 to bring together professionals interested in studying, practicing, and teaching leadership.
About Scott J. Allen
- Website
- Weekly Newsletter: Practical Wisdom for Leaders
My Approach to Hosting
- The views of my guests do not constitute "truth." Nor do they reflect my personal views in some instances. However, they are views to consider, and I hope they help you clarify your perspective. Nothing can replace your reflection, research, and exploration of the topic.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SCOTT ALLEN (01:40):
Okay, everybody.
Thank you so much for checkingin wherever you are in the
world.
Practical wisdom for leaders.
Today I am very, very excitedabout my guest.
I'm very, very excited for thisconversation we're about to
have because it's a criticalconversation.
It's an important conversation.
And I think it's a conversationthat we don't elevate often
(02:00):
enough.
And so who knows where we'regoing to go?
I'm kind of excited to seemyself, but I have Andrew
McMasters, and he is an actor,director, and consultant who
helps leaders and teamsstrengthen communication,
collaboration, and presencethrough the power of
performance.
As the author of ListeningWithout Agenda, he blends acting
(02:20):
techniques with businessstrategy to create authentic,
engaging, and effectiveleadership.
Andrew, thank you so much.
I know you're zooming in fromthe Pacific Northwest in the
United States, which is one ofmy favorite places in the world.
What do listeners need to knowabout you that maybe wasn't in
your bio just now?
Andrew McMasters (02:39):
Yeah, I think the biggest thing is my
background as an actor.
A lot of times I'm walking into work with organizations and
work with groups, and they'relike, oh, tell us what your
background is.
I'm like, well, I have amaster's degree in drama and I
have an undergraduate degree intheater.
And then they sort of look atme and go, oh, what does that
(03:00):
mean?
And yet at the same time, Ialso realize that as an actor,
you know, you sort of have to bein control of your own artistic
and financial destiny.
So I am an entrepreneur.
I started my own business.
Yeah.
Uh my joke I say all the time isI started my company in 1992
when I was four years old.
So uh because I don't want totell you how old I am.
(03:21):
Uh and I ran that for 25 years.
I stepped off in 2017.
So my experience is being aprofessional actor, classically
trained actor, and then alsorunning my own
million-dollar-a-year nonprofitorganization.
So it's both of those things.
So I kind of have thatleadership piece as well as the
actual training of being anactor.
(03:43):
Yeah.
And those are the things I thinkwhere it became the practical
application of how do thesethings that I've learned as an
actor come into play when I'mactually in charge of a staff
of, you know, five, 10 peoplethat are here and then 30
volunteers, and then 45 actors,and then a board of directors.
Yes.
How are you making all of thatwork?
(04:03):
And that I think is kind ofwhere that practical application
came into play.
SCOTT ALLEN (04:07):
Oh, well, okay.
So I have like three or fourthings here.
Good.
Love it.
So, and and I'm I'm taking theconversation maybe in a
direction we weren't necessarilygoing to go in, but I I just
absolutely love that.
Yesterday I was with so here, Iwas telling you that there's a
lot of cool things aboutCleveland, Ohio that a lot of
people know.
So, second largest theaterdistrict outside of New York
(04:27):
City is Cleveland, Ohio.
So I was with I was with uh theleadership team at Playhouse
Square yesterday, and that wasfun, fascinating, just
incredible.
So my daughters are going tosee and my wife Hel's Kitchen
tomorrow.
And two, three nights ago, Isaw Maybe Happy Ending on
Broadway.
I my daughters and my wife sawit last summer and they loved
(04:51):
it.
So I have a client in New YorkCity.
So I was like, you know, I'mgetting in at five and I'm just
gonna go straight to thetheater.
And oh my gosh, just absolutelyincredible.
So theater, the arts, I mean,you know, it's what makes us
human.
It really is.
Andrew McMasters (05:07):
Well, and those are the things that I
think one of the things I thinkthat is a downfall in theater
training is they don't teach youthat those same skills
translate everywhere.
Oh my gosh.
Yeah.
And you watch actors and you'relike, I feel what you're
saying.
And then meanwhile, you watchleaders and they're like, I am
so excited to be here.
This is just gonna be awonderful time.
And you know, and so it's like,wait a minute, you've forgotten
(05:31):
your intention.
You forgot to bring theexpressiveness, you forgot that
your body is also one of thetools that you use to have
people understand what you'resaying.
Yes, all of those things that Ithink actors learn inherently
that I think really translatestraight over to what do leaders
need?
What do people need whenthey're communicating?
SCOTT ALLEN (05:51):
Oh my gosh.
Yes, 100%.
I can't, I I sit through two orthree.
We're really, really excited toconvene all of you today.
This is just a fascinatinggroup of people that's doing
wonderful things in the world.
And you know, the person, ohgeez.
Well, okay, so let's jump intothe book.
Andrew McMasters (06:12):
Yeah.
SCOTT ALLEN (06:12):
Um, what are a couple things you would want
listeners to know about thebook?
And take us on whatever journeyyou'd like to.
I'd I'm just looking forward tolearning more.
Andrew McMasters (06:21):
Yeah, to be honest, this kind of came about.
My theater was an improv comedytheater.
So we did improv theater and wealso did long form pieces.
In fact, before I left, we haddone an uh hour and a half long
play that was an improvisedDownton Abbey and an improvised
Jane Austen play.
Wow.
So we're creating these on thespot.
And in order to do that, peopleon stage have to be able to
(06:44):
really focus on what did I justhear?
Wow.
And then how do I use what Iheard in order to build that
story?
Yes.
So the tool we talk about allthe time is the tool of yes and
how am I hearing what I'mgetting from the other actors?
How am I accepting it?
How am I building it so that wecan create this story
collaboratively?
Yes.
And that's where my listeningskills really started to expand.
(07:07):
And I started thinking about itin the sense of how am I
listening to what I'm hearing?
How am I actually using that?
As opposed to I heard it,great, but I still have an
agenda and I want to cover thatthing I want to cover.
Yes.
And in improv, you can't dothat.
I have to let go of thatagenda, and I have to really
collaborate with people.
Yes.
So that is where this sort ofpiece came in.
(07:28):
And then I started playing withthat.
Meanwhile, I've been working incorporations, Amazon,
Microsoft, um, you know, AppleComputer for years.
And realizing that that was theskill that they needed, people
would be really great on theirscript.
And the minute someone asksthem a question, they don't know
how to take that and then gooff script and build on it and
create something beautiful andwonderful.
(07:50):
Yes.
So that yes and idea is reallykind of the basis of where I
started with the book.
And then it kind of continuedfrom there into all the studies,
the pieces, the things thatcan't get in your way, all of
the other problems, which Ithink are just brilliant and
lovely and make me happy.
SCOTT ALLEN (08:07):
Well, it really truly, I mean, I was with a
group recently and they werekind of charting their path
forward.
And and it really isfascinating to watch, Andrew,
where some people's minds, toyour point, they're so focused
on their agenda and their pathforward that a very quick, you
(08:27):
know, I think that's reallyintriguing.
We could probably completeboth, or we probably could
achieve both of these, or maybewe can achieve both, but maybe
not on a maybe an extendedtimeline.
And then all of a sudden you'rebuilding and you're staying in
a place of possibilities andyou're staying in a place of of
kind of um growth and appreciatelike an appreciative space
(08:52):
versus a space that shuts down.
And those are that's a skill.
That's a skill when you areleading others and collaborating
and trying to improvise what'shappening in the room.
And how do you combine somethings so that maybe not
everyone's getting exactly whatthey want, but they felt heard,
they felt like a piece of whatthey were kind of value as being
(09:14):
bolted on.
It's a skill.
Andrew McMasters (09:17):
It is, and especially these days, that idea
of I have felt heard.
Even if my idea didn't moveforward, I felt heard, I felt
included.
Now I'm engaged.
And I mean, every study youread, when you're engaging
employees, they put in extradiscretionary effort, and now
all of a sudden that increasesthe bottom line of the company.
So these are skills to helpyour financial benefit continue
(09:42):
to grow, your output continue togo.
I it's um it's fascinating tome to sort of think about that
too.
And one of the things I findwith a lot of new leaders is
they don't delineate between thetwo.
They get the idea of yes, andthey're like, yes, and but
that'll never work.
Yes, and but that'll neverwork.
Right.
So it's you're you're settingit up and you're shutting it
down, you're setting it up andyou're shutting it down, as
(10:03):
opposed to understanding thatthere is a time where you've got
um the divergent thinking.
SCOTT ALLEN (10:08):
Yeah.
Andrew McMasters (10:09):
We are we are considering possibilities.
We're putting everything on thetable.
Let's play with it.
Now let's analyze what we'vetalked about.
Now let's do convergentthinking.
What can we do and what can wewalk out of this meeting
deciding we're all going to dotogether?
Yes.
So making sure they're actuallydoing the two different thought
processes at different times,as opposed to at the same time,
which gives everybody thatfeeling of playing whack-a-mole.
(10:30):
Like, I'm I'm just not gettinganywhere.
Yeah.
So it's separating the thoughtprocesses and making sure that
you're doing it in a methodicalway so that you can actually
include everyone, analyze, andthen walk out of it with actual
action items that you're gonnado.
SCOTT ALLEN (10:43):
Yes, yes, 100%.
Well, and even, you know, asyou were as you were talking, I
I and you were talking aboutyour own theater where we're
gonna do an hour and a half of aDownton Abbey inspired.
I mean, I just think of some ofmy favorite comedic
experiences.
And of course, you know, youhave, I don't know how how much
(11:05):
you watched Parks and Wreck.
Oh, yeah.
Like historically, like theywould do the script, but then
they would also kind of go offand shoot some other stuff just
to see what emerged from theactors or spinal tap, you know,
the end continues, or whateverthat was called.
You know, the Rob Reiner andthat crew, right?
Many of whom I think were inSCTV for years.
(11:27):
I just watched an awesomedocumentary on John Candy.
So I had SCTV on the mind.
Oh, wow, cool.
Yeah, but I mean, you know,again, that improvisation, and
you have to be so focused.
I mean, it has to be incrediblydraining, right?
I mean, and it is for leadersas well to truly be present and
truly focused and trying tofigure out how to yes and and
(11:49):
collaborate and combine, it alsotakes energy.
Would you agree?
Andrew McMasters (11:53):
It does.
I and I think it also givesenergy.
It's one of those things thatit is such a heightened level of
you feel like everything'sfiring on all cylinders.
Yes.
Uh, I know for myself when I'vestepped off of the stage for a
great improv show, all of asudden I just feel like I don't
even know what happened.
It just it just magically sortof came out.
(12:15):
And those are the moments thatwe're looking for where you've
let go of who you are and you'vereally thought about the group.
I mean, one of the main rules Itell improvisers all the time
is make your scene partner lookgood.
Yes.
It's not about what you say,it's about how do I make them
look good.
And I think that's what you'relooking at too when you were
watching the thing on on JohnCandy and SCTV.
(12:36):
They're all externally focusingand thinking about how do I
make the other people around mesuccessful.
Yes.
That concept alone for businessis fascinating.
Oh, yeah.
How many times are peopleexternally focusing to go, how
do I help you?
How do I help you?
How do I help you?
As a leader, that's your job.
Yes.
I mean, I think that's a jobnumber one.
SCOTT ALLEN (12:56):
Oh, 100%.
And I think I think I used thewrong word, like energy.
I don't think it takespresence.
Oh, yeah, it does.
Right.
I mean, you have to be you haveto be present and mindful in
the moment.
And then and then again, we'vegot the the the yes and as a
tool in some ways, and thenthere's this underlying
foundation of how do I makeothers look good?
Andrew McMasters (13:20):
Yeah.
Oh, and and I think it's it'sboth to your point too.
It's the it's really takes alot of energy and it feels
energizing.
And then at some point youcrash.
You just do because it's toomuch, ah, you know, you feel
like you're on constantly.
So definitely crash afterwards,that's true.
SCOTT ALLEN (13:40):
Well, what are some other concepts that you see
translating from the two domainsin a really, really nice way?
I mean, I love that that otherorientation.
Am I making others look good?
And of course, yes, I mean,that's if you if you show up
with that mindset, it's gonna behard not to be successful.
I mean, that's obviously ageneralization, but it's just
(14:02):
it's a great mindset from whichto begin.
What are some other connectionsthat you see that just
translate beautifully?
Andrew McMasters (14:10):
Uh yeah, the biggest one, and I I tried to
put this in the book in the wayuh uh it's a lot of the things
actually that I see you talkingabout on on your podcast or it's
on your website as well.
It's the pieces of it's onething for me to to read about
it.
It's one free thing for me tothink about it.
The other thing is, are youdoing it?
And and that whole idea ofacting is doing.
(14:32):
You are taking this idea andputting it into action.
There are things you're doingmoving forward.
Uh, for me, it's always aboutthat experiential learning
piece.
Yeah, I want you to actuallytry it.
And then you have this physicalexperience of oh, what was that
like?
Yes.
And now I can take thatphysical experience and I can
intellectually tie it to howwould I use it moving forward.
(14:54):
So it's that practicalapplication piece.
And even in the book, I wrotethe first part is sort of about
okay, here's the issues that werun into.
The next part is what could wedo about it?
The third part are here are theexercises.
Yeah, do them, take them intoyour team, practice it.
This is the part where I wantyou to actually try it.
Don't just read about it, tryit, do it.
(15:16):
And then the last part is if wecould all do that, what what
would be possible?
Like what could we change?
How could things alter?
And that's sort of the idea.
I wanted it to be somethingwhere it's actually practical,
where a leader could take it andgo, all right, let's let's give
it a shot.
Here's the here's the exercise,here's the workbook, let's just
go through it and see what wefind.
Nice.
Um, that experimentation, Ithink, is the key.
(15:37):
That's where you find things.
SCOTT ALLEN (15:39):
Well, even as you were speaking just now, I mean,
I was reminded of a I was doinga session two weeks ago, and it
was about making work fun.
And so this was a constructioncompany.
So, yeah.
Cool, let's go, let's have theconversation.
And so I did a little segmenton gratitude.
And in real time, I just said,I want you to think of someone
(16:02):
that you probably should havethanked in the last two weeks,
but you just forgot to.
Uh, send those folks a textright now.
And it was amazing to watch itplay out, Andrew, because they
would send the text, and then agood portion of them, let's just
say it's 20, 30 percent,immediately get feedback from a
real human being that is like,you know what?
(16:25):
Thank you so much.
I really appreciate youchecking back in, or your
follow-up, or your your words ofpraise.
And and you could just see theroom, those people who got that
little dopamine hit back.
Yeah, it it just totallytransformed their energy.
And so, yes, how do we how dowe get to a place of practicing?
(16:48):
Because I could have just kindof kept it theoretical, and I
have in the past, where it'slike, oh, gratitude, it's
important.
Do it.
No, let's try it, let'sactually experiment a little bit
and see what this is like,right?
Andrew McMasters (17:00):
And and I'm even, I mean, I get down to the
the pragmatic part of it of Ilike to schedule it.
Uh, a friend of mine, uh DarrenNerland, who uh does
Learnapalooza, a bunch ofdifferent things here in the
Pacific Northwest, he has downin his calendar a thing called
random spontaneity.
Yes.
And it's like every Friday at acertain time.
And it's like when that goesoff, you go, Who have and I
(17:21):
reached out to?
Hey, just thinking about youand just hope everything's going
well, and here's this.
And it's just those times toremind yourself to touch base
with people, say thank you.
Wow, been thinking about you,hope things are going well.
I mean, I think that does abunch of different things.
It helps you out with what isthat person doing?
How are they suddenly thinkingof you?
(17:42):
What else is going on?
Um, the feeling that you gettoo of just saying, hey, thank
you.
SCOTT ALLEN (17:47):
I was thinking about you.
It was great.
100%.
But I love the fact that youare operationalizing it and
challenging people to experiencesome of these things in the
moment, in real time, becausethat's absolutely critical,
right?
Yeah, yeah.
Andrew McMasters (18:04):
I love you were saying that exercise of
doing that.
One of the ones that I've donebefore for people is I just have
them walk around and meet eachother in a room and say, How did
you start working here?
And what do you love about it?
And then it's like, okay,great, find someone else, do it
again.
Find someone else, do it again.
And after about three, fourtimes, then we go, What are you
hearing that's the commonality?
(18:25):
And in a way, you sort of findthese beautiful, they're almost
values that the entire room hadthat they didn't realize they
had.
Yes, yes, it's beautiful, likehearing those things.
SCOTT ALLEN (18:36):
Oh, oh, 100%, right?
I mean, that that kind of um inthe same session, I had I had
participants write down answersto to three questions on three
different index cards.
And there were 140 people inthe room, so 140 times three
number of index cards kind ofwent up and were posted around
(19:00):
the room.
And it was so interesting tojust kind of debrief that with
the group.
One participant said, you know,20 minutes ago, all of that was
just inside us and not known.
Yeah.
And this very quick shift ofnow I'm seeing hundreds.
(19:21):
And I saw my name up there acouple of times, and it felt
really, really wonderful thatsomeone had encouraged.
And but it's so amazing to methose things that are kind of in
us and maybe not expressed, butcould be, and the difference
that that makes in a space,right?
And just no different than yes,and that that subtle rule just
(19:41):
totally shifts the energy.
And I mean, I love those typesof things.
It's fascinating.
Andrew McMasters (19:48):
It it is, and and also what I love what you're
describing too is you'veallowed the space for that to
happen.
And I I think, you know, to behonest, when we talk about
listening and I and I focus onlistening, I find that people
don't provide the space forthat.
I have the idea or my agenda,or oh, you know what, you just
(20:09):
talked about that and I'msuddenly solutioning in my head,
or we don't have time for this,or what do they need from me,
or I have other things to do,like all of these other things
that fill up the head as opposedto let me just allow space for
it.
Yes.
Wow, okay, this is what I'mhearing.
Tell me if I'm hearing thatcorrectly.
Great.
Now we have clarity.
Let's try and figure out sothose things, the space for it,
(20:33):
like you said, the space forsomeone to go, I saw my name on
these cards.
Wow.
Yeah.
That's beautiful.
That is so, I mean, it's spinejingling for me.
It's just amazing.
SCOTT ALLEN (20:45):
Well, but also to your point, the space for us to
really be present and have aconversation and a dialogue and
to truly try and take in whatthis other person is is saying.
Um I think we get distractedday to day.
I love the idea of that kind ofrandom spontaneity, like it's
(21:08):
planned for, but the day takesover.
Yeah.
Teams meeting after teamsmeeting after teams meeting.
I'm just surviving.
I'm not necessarily movingthrough that with a level of
presence.
When those leaders who do movethrough that with a level of
presence, who do move throughthat with creating that space,
(21:28):
uh, those people are ninjas.
They they are Jedi's, and I Icome across them and I'm just in
awe.
I really am.
Yeah.
Because it's not easy.
Andrew McMasters (21:40):
No, it's not.
And and you know, I even lookback at the mistakes that I
made, you know, running mycompany.
Because again, I didn't have alot of training doing that.
No.
Um, there was one time Iremember like I was working
there and someone came in andtalked to me, and I'm like,
Yeah, okay.
And I'm talking to them, I'mtalking to them.
And afterwards, my wife, who itwas there visiting, looked at
me and said, You know, you nevertook your eyes off the keyboard
(22:02):
the entire time you talked tothem.
Yes.
And that that hits me just like,oh, wow, I continued to work on
this, even though they'retalking to me about something.
Yeah, yeah, okay.
Oh, totally cool.
And not even making eyecontact, not being present, as
you said, with with them, beingavailable, making that space for
them to continue to talk to me.
(22:24):
Yep.
And if I don't make that space,I can't hear the next brilliant
innovation that's going to helpus to take the next step.
So, you know, I'm kind ofscrewing myself in a way.
SCOTT ALLEN (22:32):
Oh, yeah.
No, 100%.
You can't hear it.
You literally can't.
And you also miss a lot of goodthat's happening in front of
you because there's a number ofpeople who are showing up, doing
their part, giving what you youknow, discretionary effort.
And I I see this at times aswell.
(22:53):
That's why some of these hacks,like the Friday spontaneity, is
such a great idea, becausethey're happening.
Are we seeing them?
And are we acknowledging?
And those are again littledopamine hits that we know what
it feels like when you work forsomeone who's missed the
opportunity to say, thank you,that was awesome.
(23:14):
I appreciate you for months ata time.
Yeah.
And slowing down, how are theretools that you use?
I mean, even just like thestory you shared of your wife
just now, where I mean, beingopen to feedback and being known
as someone who's open tofeedback is incredibly
important.
And your wife felt like shecould give you that feedback,
which is great.
But are there are there toolsthat you've come across or ways
(23:37):
you think about how we helppeople slow down and get into
that space?
How do you think about that?
Andrew McMasters (23:44):
I this is where I kind of started to
focus.
It feels to me like it startswith how we show up listening.
Yeah.
And uh, and the first thing thatI end up doing is is getting
people to shut down what'shappening in your head.
And and again, it it'sdifficult to shut down what's
happening in your head becauseif you say, okay, don't, you
know, just just focus, don't dothis, don't do this.
(24:05):
That doesn't work.
Yeah, exactly.
Right.
Don't think about a pinkelephant.
What am I doing?
Right.
Um so it's giving the brain ajob.
And one of the first pieces Ido is, okay, whatever they're
saying, you're gonna encapsulatethis into one sentence.
Okay.
So now I'm sitting therethinking, okay, what is it?
(24:26):
What is it?
Great.
What I'm hearing is this.
The next step, which I think isis leaning a little bit more
onto that that feeling, makingthe space like we've been
talking about, is you know,based on what you said, what I'm
hearing is this is what youreally care about.
This is what you really value.
Tell me if I'm hearing thatcorrectly.
And again, I haven't startedinto solutions or what we could
(24:47):
do or possibilities.
I'm just reflecting back.
Wow, it sounds to me likefairness is something you really
care about.
Tell me if I'm hearing thatcorrectly.
Yep.
It sounds to me like you reallyvalue education.
Yeah, uh, and if I can startreflecting back what they value,
what they care about, suddenlythat conversation turns about
something else.
(25:07):
And and I, you know, to behonest, again, being pragmatic,
I teach this for salespeoplebecause I find a lot of times
they're like, I know what I haveto sell.
Someone mentioned something,ha, I know how to position it.
Great.
And they're all thinking aboutpositioning as opposed to just
have a conversation.
SCOTT ALLEN (25:23):
Yes.
Andrew McMasters (25:24):
And the minute you can start reflecting back,
it sounds to me like this iswhat you really care about.
Tell me if that's correct.
Yep.
Suddenly that got deeper.
Yes.
And we are now having a wholedifferent conversation.
Yes.
And now that conversation islike, well, you know, maybe some
of our products could actuallyfulfill that for you.
Let's talk about that.
It it's a it it changes thedynamic.
SCOTT ALLEN (25:47):
100%.
I mean, you're getting into uhwhat I what I love about that is
you're you're moving intovalues, yeah, emotion.
Um it's a deeper, it's a deeperlevel conversation, fairness,
equity, um, being heard.
Uh you're you're getting intokind of a deeper level that now
(26:11):
becomes a pretty realconversation.
Yeah.
That again, to your point,other salespeople, they're
probably so eye-consumed,eye-focused, not focused on
helping the other person shine,the other person look good,
because ultimately that's whatthat person who's buying this
product probably they want to bethought well of.
(26:32):
They want to be thought thatthey're doing a good job, that
they've brought somethingvaluable to the table.
And you're connecting with themat just a deeper level.
I love that.
I absolutely love that.
Andrew McMasters (26:42):
I and I I think it leads to a little bit
too of what you said of how thatleader shows up.
After you start to practicethat and after you start to
listen for it, then it's thatidea of, well, what do I really
care about?
I mean, I I was running aprogram called an ROI on time
and getting people who areconsultants to sort of think of
(27:02):
where do you spend your time?
Yeah.
And what do you say you value?
Uh the majority of them I foundwere always like top value was
family, family, family.
And then we'd look at theircalendar and go, okay, well,
you've you've missed your lastthree soccer games that your kid
was playing in because you hadmeetings.
So if you're gonna say familyis a top value, are you actually
(27:24):
living that value?
And and I feel like, in a way,yes, there's so much work, you
have so much to do.
But when you can demonstratethat you're living that value,
the people around you see that.
Yeah.
And then that changes howthey're working, and it changes
it, it's it's real, yeah.
As opposed to, no, we're allwe're all working, you know,
(27:46):
we're muzzling it through, whichdoesn't get you anywhere.
Yeah.
So I think it's that again, thatvalue of like I believe in this
value and I live this value,and you can see this value
reflected in my actions and mydecisions and the things that I
do moving forward and the way mycalendar is.
Yes, my values are reflectingthat.
SCOTT ALLEN (28:06):
Well, and uh, I mean, what I love about this now
too is that that thatcongruence then shines through.
I mean, you've worked with theleader who said the right thing,
but their behavior, thecongruence wasn't there.
Uh, the energy wasn't congruentwith even or their calendar
told the real story.
I mean, there's a lack ofcongruence.
(28:27):
And when you're I had a gueston recently who um who kind of
spoke to the spirit of this, butyou know, that inner space,
it's gonna show up in yourbehavior, and it's either
congruent and it's it's it'saligned or it's not.
And we can Alanis Morriset, I'ma Gen Xer, so uh she had a
(28:50):
line.
I I feel right through you.
And I've said that a few timeson the podcast recently, but you
can feel when there's actualalignment there, and you can
feel maybe when there isn't thatalignment there, right?
Yeah, yeah.
Andrew McMasters (29:02):
And and I think that then as a leader,
everyone is looking to you.
Oh, yeah.
You are you are modeling thatbehavior.
Yep.
Uh I know for myself the firsttime I sat in a staff meeting
and I picked up my my phone tolook at something.
I've now given everyone in thatroom the permission to look at
their phone.
Yeah.
So if I really am asking you tobe here and to be available, I
(29:27):
need to set that model.
I need to set the standard.
That means living through myvalues.
That means not picking up myphone.
That means being here andlistening and being present and
not just staring at my keyboardwhile you talk.
It it's all those things thatyou you start to realize I'm I
am playing this role, you know,um, and I have to show up this
(29:47):
way for my team.
SCOTT ALLEN (29:48):
100%.
I mean, literally this week Iwas in a meeting where the
senior leader in theconversation, small group
conversation, let's go fivepeople plus this individual, is
for a large faction of theconversation, just literally
looking down at the phone, everyonce in a while looking up,
looking down, and and checkedout.
(30:10):
And I mean, I wish there was aa way I could have been a little
more forceful and upfront withthat individual as to how they
were showing up and theramifications of that, but it
is.
It's just really now.
If I were to empathize, thatperson's being pulled in a
thousand directions.
There's a there's, you know, wecan we can go down all the
reasons why they weredistracted.
(30:32):
But if that's the case, I couldstep, get up, I could say, Hey,
you know what?
I got a little bit of a fire,I'll be back in a moment.
And there's just that socialawareness of okay, I'm not
acting in congruence here,probably with what I would
expect from my team, because Iwouldn't want them to all be on
their device right now, totallychecked out.
So, do I have that social andemotional intelligence to say,
(30:54):
you know what, got a little bitof a fire, I'm gonna be back in
a moment, and then come back, bepresent, lock in.
But that again, oof.
Andrew McMasters (31:03):
Well, being aware of the impact that that
behavior is having on the team.
And and I I equate this alittle bit on listening too,
because in the book I talk aboutit's not just what I'm hearing,
it's not just auditory, it'swhat am I seeing that is the
reaction, you know?
All of a sudden I saw someonelean back in their chair in a
way.
Well, did I hear that?
(31:24):
You know, because that isthat's something that I have to
take as that social cue thatthen says, okay, there's
something else happening here.
Um, I I'm working with uh aleader right now who's in the
process of a transition.
So the big general manager'sleaving and he's taking Taking
over, and there's sort of a longtransition period.
And he was telling me that theother general manager is going
(31:45):
to be doing this town hall.
And he's going to beintroduced, but then he's up
front.
And he said, There's a lot ofstuff he's doing, I just don't
agree with.
And I said, That's fine.
You're down front.
You got to smile, nod, and say,Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, because everyone'swatching you.
Yes.
When he's gone and you're incharge, you can do other things.
That's fine.
Right now, be the team player.
(32:07):
Smile, nod, be present.
Go, yeah, okay, good.
Because everyone's looking atyou.
And be aware that that iswhat's happening.
You know, you are modelingwhatever you need to see.
And the minute you go, oh no,that's gonna change the dynamic
in the room.
SCOTT ALLEN (32:25):
Well, and as an actor, yeah, see those
nonverbals.
I mean, exactly.
Again, you're trained to seethe eyes get bigger or sitting
back in the crossed arms.
And it it's again, I see somany connections from world to
world that are just incrediblyvaluable, right?
(32:48):
Yeah.
Andrew McMasters (32:51):
It kind of started, sorry, I did kind of go
back on this.
It kind of started for me.
For many years, I worked forMicrosoft, Apple Computer, and I
stood on stage and I demoedhardware or software.
Okay.
Um, and that was my job.
So I started to realize that Iwas being hired to stand in
front of a thousand people andpretend that I worked at Apple
Computer.
And the reason was is becausethe people who had written this
(33:14):
were too afraid to stand upthere and talk about something,
something that they were sopassionate about they had spent
five years of their livesdeveloping.
Yes.
And that's the part that saidto me, Well, wait a minute, what
if I can train you?
What if I can help you to bringthat out?
Yeah.
What if I can help you to showup fully because this is yours?
(33:34):
Yes.
I it's sure.
As an actor, I can do that.
I can find that passion, I canfind the cool thing, I can do
that.
What I want to do is I startasking you, well, what's cool
about it?
What do you love?
Oh, and they light up, right?
Oh, they light up, right?
Even though it's server loadbalancing, they're going, Oh,
okay, the packets come in, andthen they're starting to all
right.
And you you watch them justfire up, and that's what we're
(33:57):
talking about.
That I want that passion.
That's what's going to excitepeople, that's what's going to
draw people around you to say,Yeah, yeah, I want to follow
this person.
Look at the passion, look atthe excitement.
So it's drawing those thingsout.
It's really acting training.
SCOTT ALLEN (34:13):
Yeah, well, it no, a hundred percent.
It is, it really, really is.
I do some work with somecardiac surgeons, and oh
sometimes I'll push, I'll I'llI'll just it'll be it'll be
presentation training, and andit'll be okay.
Let's just do a quick pause.
Are you excited about theseresearch results?
I mean, I have no clue whatthey mean, it's just like
something pumping and you know,images, and and they're like,
(34:35):
Yeah, this is reallygroundbreaking.
Andrew McMasters (34:36):
And I'm like, Well, could you I don't see that
I'm not feeling it right now.
SCOTT ALLEN (34:44):
Could you say intrigued?
I mean, even that word wouldcause a little bit of intrigued
by the results we found.
Andrew McMasters (34:53):
Exactly.
And I I almost um I had almosttaken a position.
I sort of started my owncompany and went my own
direction, but I almost took aposition at the um Stony Brook,
uh, which basically is the AlanAlda School of Communicating
Science.
Yeah, and this was the samething.
Here's Alan Alda, who's anactor who suddenly realized all
of these scientists couldn't gettheir idea across because it
(35:13):
was all science, science,science, science.
And it's like, are you excitedabout this?
Same thing.
Like, what's cool about this,surgeon?
Please tell me.
I want that to come out.
Um, yeah, it's it's soimportant.
SCOTT ALLEN (35:27):
It's incredible.
And I'm like, well, okay.
Maybe tell me why that is,because I want to know.
Yeah.
Tell me the story.
Uh so as we begin to wind ourwind down our time, is there
anything else about the bookthat you want listeners to know?
So that um, I of course we'regonna have links in the show
(35:47):
notes.
So um, anything else that youwant to say about it?
Andrew McMasters (35:51):
You know, the main thing that I think I really
want, and I think this issomething I use for leaders all
across the board, and and forthe book, I tried to put this in
is really the what am I tryingto accomplish?
What's my intention?
And then how am I gonna startgetting towards it so that I can
start to set out this is mygoal.
Yeah, this is what I want todo.
Uh, one of the pieces ofresearch that I love to sort of
(36:12):
cite is um that it was a collegeresearch, they took 450
arachnophobes, okay, peopledeathly afraid of spiders, and
they put them in a room with atarantula in a glass box in the
middle of the room.
Okay.
And they said, try and getclose to it.
And they told one group, like,talk about anything else, like
sports, the weather, you know.
They told another group, like,don't think about anything,
(36:33):
don't talk about anything.
However, they had a group thatthey said, talk about how you're
feeling, talk about what'sgetting in your way.
And that group was able to getcloser to the spider.
Some of them were able to reachin and touch it.
Wow.
So cognitively, what we've beenable to find is just that idea
of if you can identify what itis you want, what you're working
(36:55):
on, that helps you to start tomove towards that.
It's even just identifying itfor yourself, saying it out
loud, writing it down, whateverit is.
And so I think that's sort ofthe thing is if you want to be a
better listener, it's reallythat idea of like, oh great, I
got the book.
I'd really love for you towrite down in the front of the
book, what do you want?
Yeah.
Or say it out loud to someone.
(37:16):
Yes.
That I think helps you to getthe tools to actually start to
go, what am I doing here?
Yes.
SCOTT ALLEN (37:21):
Yeah.
And and we will, you know, myfriend John A.
Cove says, you know,imperfectly move forward, right?
It's not gonna be steps forwardand steps back.
We're gonna make mistakes andwe're gonna sometimes show up
and have our head buried in thecomputer and not pay attention
like we should.
But that awareness builds.
And if we truly value that,we'll get better.
(37:43):
We will.
I mean, it's there's thatmotivation to learn, and but
oof, I love it.
I love it.
Well, hey, okay, so I alwaysend the conversation by saying
or asking, I should say, whathave you been listening to,
streaming, reading?
What's caught your attentionrecently that you may be of
interest to to listeners?
(38:03):
It does could have to do withwhat we've just discussed.
It may have nothing to do withwhat we've just discussed.
And I'll play as well.
I'll I'll share something withyou.
But I'm gonna wait for you toshare yours, and then maybe
that'll spark something.
Andrew McMasters (38:16):
I I mean, you know, the hardest thing for me
right now is I I have a coupledifferent I have piles of books,
you know, having just finishedSabina's book a little while
ago.
Yes, yes, which you had Sabinaon the on the podcast.
Um, I have piles of businessbooks, but I keep trying to
intersperse it with differentthings.
And uh, and I just startedpicking up the Slow Horses book
after seeing the show on AppleTV.
(38:37):
Was that good?
It's the show is phenomenal.
The acting is uh is really,really top-notch.
It's beautiful, beautiful towatch.
And the twists and turns, yeah.
And the books are also really,really well done.
So I think right now I'm in alittle bit of a yeah, a little
nerd out on my slow horses sortof thing.
SCOTT ALLEN (38:57):
That's my no, I I think you know, I think we
started watching like the firstepisode, and for some reason it
just I don't know what it was.
It wasn't the right night, orit just we were distracted by
something else not beingpresent, probably.
But um, you know, we need togive that another shot.
Because I think is there a newseason out?
Is that what it was that thenew season?
Yeah, yeah, a new season is outtoo.
(39:19):
I just finished that one lastnight, so that's why.
Okay, so so I I I have not seenit yet, but Andrew, I don't
know if you've seen the trailerfor the Bruce Springsteen movie,
and I'm not a huge BruceSpringsteen fan, but I have gone
out and I've listened toNebraska.
The storytelling in that isincredible, and then Jeremy
(39:40):
Allen White.
I mean, my gosh, between what Iexpect this performance to be,
I'm I'm excited to see it.
I just really am.
Andrew McMasters (39:51):
I it okay, so I'm just gonna piggyback on that
for a moment because as I said,I grew up outside of
Philadelphia, I spent my entireyouth driving to the Jersey
Shore.
So Bruce Springsteen is a partof my growing up and my life in
so many ways.
My my regret is I did not getto New York to see him on
Broadway.
Uh he was doing his one-personshow.
(40:13):
I saw the video of it, theyhave it on Netflix.
Uh so if you want to see that,that's wonderful.
But yeah, I can't wait for thatmovie either.
I just cannot win, cannot wait.
SCOTT ALLEN (40:21):
It it was funny because Jeremy Allen White's
being interviewed, and and sothe the the interviewer said, So
you learned guitar.
And and he said, Well, I got tothe first lesson with my
teacher, and he said, We willnot be learning guitar, we will
be learning five Bruce songs,and that is all, you know.
So he was like, Have youlearned guitar?
(40:42):
He's like, No, I know thesefive songs.
Yep.
You know, oh anytime you know,Val Kilmer when he sang the
music of the doors, orindividuals are performing in
that way.
And actually, um, the thegentleman who played Bob Dylan
in that film a couple years ago,um, he just escaped me.
Doom.
Uh shamal, uh Shamalon.
Andrew McMasters (41:05):
Uh yeah, it's it's yeah.
Timothy Shalomet.
Shalomet, that's it.
Thank you.
I knew it was there somewhere.
I'm like, it's not M.
Night Shalon, it's Chalamet.
Got it.
All right.
SCOTT ALLEN (41:16):
Yeah, it wasn't it wasn't crop circles type stuff.
It wasn't Bruce Willis and Isee dead people, but there we
go, right.
Yeah, yes, yeah.
Well, Andrew, I really, reallyappreciate your time.
As as I said, we will havelinks in the show notes.
And so, listeners, please feelfree to click on that, purchase
that, and um I you know what,sir.
(41:36):
I just I really, reallyappreciate you, and thank you so
much for your time today.
Thank you.
Andrew McMasters (41:41):
I appreciate being here, and this is
wonderful.
SCOTT ALLEN (41:43):
I I feel energized from this, so this is great.
Andrew McMasters (41:45):
Thank you.
SCOTT ALLEN (41:46):
Me too.
Me have a wonderful weekend.
Thanks, you too.
Bye-bye.
So I've had a couple episodesaround improv, a little bit on
acting, but I'm just more andmore amazed at this space and
the conversation and how itrelates to leadership and leader
development.
(42:06):
I think an advanced skill isreally remaining present and
mindful about how we areinteracting with others
throughout the day.
That energy that we're puttingout, as Jonathan Reims would
say, leaders create the weather,and it's hard to hide that
(42:27):
inner state of yourself.
Whether you're a parent orwhether you're leading in an
organization, it's difficult tohide that inner state.
So are we aware?
Are we present?
Are we mindful?
And in the moment, paying closeattention to how we're showing
up.
And for me, I think that's anext level skill of great
(42:50):
managers and great leaders.
And to Andrew, thank you somuch for that conversation.
Very much appreciate it.
To all of you, as always,thanks for checking in.
Bye bye.
Okay, everybody.
Thank you so much for checkingin wherever you are in the
world.
Practical wisdom for leaders.
Today I am very, very excitedabout my guest.
I'm very, very excited for thisconversation we're about to
have because it's a criticalconversation.
It's an important conversation.
And I think it's a conversationthat we don't elevate often
(02:00):
enough.
And so who knows where we'regoing to go?
I'm kind of excited to seemyself, but I have Andrew
McMasters, and he is an actor,director, and consultant who
helps leaders and teamsstrengthen communication,
collaboration, and presencethrough the power of
performance.
As the author of ListeningWithout Agenda, he blends acting
(02:20):
techniques with businessstrategy to create authentic,
engaging, and effectiveleadership.
Andrew, thank you so much.
I know you're zooming in fromthe Pacific Northwest in the
United States, which is one ofmy favorite places in the world.
What do listeners need to knowabout you that maybe wasn't in
your bio just now?
Andrew McMasters (02:39):
Yeah, I think the biggest thing is my
background as an actor.
A lot of times I'm walking into work with organizations and
work with groups, and they'relike, oh, tell us what your
background is.
I'm like, well, I have amaster's degree in drama and I
have an undergraduate degree intheater.
And then they sort of look atme and go, oh, what does that
(03:00):
mean?
And yet at the same time, Ialso realize that as an actor,
you know, you sort of have to bein control of your own artistic
and financial destiny.
So I am an entrepreneur.
I started my own business.
Yeah.
Uh my joke I say all the time isI started my company in 1992
when I was four years old.
So uh because I don't want totell you how old I am.
(03:21):
Uh and I ran that for 25 years.
I stepped off in 2017.
So my experience is being aprofessional actor, classically
trained actor, and then alsorunning my own
million-dollar-a-year nonprofitorganization.
So it's both of those things.
So I kind of have thatleadership piece as well as the
actual training of being anactor.
(03:43):
Yeah.
And those are the things I thinkwhere it became the practical
application of how do thesethings that I've learned as an
actor come into play when I'mactually in charge of a staff
of, you know, five, 10 peoplethat are here and then 30
volunteers, and then 45 actors,and then a board of directors.
Yes.
How are you making all of thatwork?
(04:03):
And that I think is kind ofwhere that practical application
came into play.
SCOTT ALLEN (04:07):
Oh, well, okay.
So I have like three or fourthings here.
Good.
Love it.
So, and and I'm I'm taking theconversation maybe in a
direction we weren't necessarilygoing to go in, but I I just
absolutely love that.
Yesterday I was with so here, Iwas telling you that there's a
lot of cool things aboutCleveland, Ohio that a lot of
people know.
So, second largest theaterdistrict outside of New York
(04:27):
City is Cleveland, Ohio.
So I was with I was with uh theleadership team at Playhouse
Square yesterday, and that wasfun, fascinating, just
incredible.
So my daughters are going tosee and my wife Hel's Kitchen
tomorrow.
And two, three nights ago, Isaw Maybe Happy Ending on
Broadway.
I my daughters and my wife sawit last summer and they loved
(04:51):
it.
So I have a client in New YorkCity.
So I was like, you know, I'mgetting in at five and I'm just
gonna go straight to thetheater.
And oh my gosh, just absolutelyincredible.
So theater, the arts, I mean,you know, it's what makes us
human.
It really is.
Andrew McMasters (05:07):
Well, and those are the things that I
think one of the things I thinkthat is a downfall in theater
training is they don't teach youthat those same skills
translate everywhere.
Oh my gosh.
Yeah.
And you watch actors and you'relike, I feel what you're
saying.
And then meanwhile, you watchleaders and they're like, I am
so excited to be here.
This is just gonna be awonderful time.
And you know, and so it's like,wait a minute, you've forgotten
(05:31):
your intention.
You forgot to bring theexpressiveness, you forgot that
your body is also one of thetools that you use to have
people understand what you'resaying.
Yes, all of those things that Ithink actors learn inherently
that I think really translatestraight over to what do leaders
need?
What do people need whenthey're communicating?
SCOTT ALLEN (05:51):
Oh my gosh.
Yes, 100%.
I can't, I I sit through two orthree.
We're really, really excited toconvene all of you today.
This is just a fascinatinggroup of people that's doing
wonderful things in the world.
And you know, the person, ohgeez.
Well, okay, so let's jump intothe book.
Andrew McMasters (06:12):
Yeah.
SCOTT ALLEN (06:12):
Um, what are a couple things you would want
listeners to know about thebook?
And take us on whatever journeyyou'd like to.
I'd I'm just looking forward tolearning more.
Andrew McMasters (06:21):
Yeah, to be honest, this kind of came about.
My theater was an improv comedytheater.
So we did improv theater and wealso did long form pieces.
In fact, before I left, we haddone an uh hour and a half long
play that was an improvisedDownton Abbey and an improvised
Jane Austen play.
Wow.
So we're creating these on thespot.
And in order to do that, peopleon stage have to be able to
(06:44):
really focus on what did I justhear?
Wow.
And then how do I use what Iheard in order to build that
story?
Yes.
So the tool we talk about allthe time is the tool of yes and
how am I hearing what I'mgetting from the other actors?
How am I accepting it?
How am I building it so that wecan create this story
collaboratively?
Yes.
And that's where my listeningskills really started to expand.
(07:07):
And I started thinking about itin the sense of how am I
listening to what I'm hearing?
How am I actually using that?
As opposed to I heard it,great, but I still have an
agenda and I want to cover thatthing I want to cover.
Yes.
And in improv, you can't dothat.
I have to let go of thatagenda, and I have to really
collaborate with people.
Yes.
So that is where this sort ofpiece came in.
(07:28):
And then I started playing withthat.
Meanwhile, I've been working incorporations, Amazon,
Microsoft, um, you know, AppleComputer for years.
And realizing that that was theskill that they needed, people
would be really great on theirscript.
And the minute someone asksthem a question, they don't know
how to take that and then gooff script and build on it and
create something beautiful andwonderful.
(07:50):
Yes.
So that yes and idea is reallykind of the basis of where I
started with the book.
And then it kind of continuedfrom there into all the studies,
the pieces, the things thatcan't get in your way, all of
the other problems, which Ithink are just brilliant and
lovely and make me happy.
SCOTT ALLEN (08:07):
Well, it really truly, I mean, I was with a
group recently and they werekind of charting their path
forward.
And and it really isfascinating to watch, Andrew,
where some people's minds, toyour point, they're so focused
on their agenda and their pathforward that a very quick, you
(08:27):
know, I think that's reallyintriguing.
We could probably completeboth, or we probably could
achieve both of these, or maybewe can achieve both, but maybe
not on a maybe an extendedtimeline.
And then all of a sudden you'rebuilding and you're staying in
a place of possibilities andyou're staying in a place of of
kind of um growth and appreciatelike an appreciative space
(08:52):
versus a space that shuts down.
And those are that's a skill.
That's a skill when you areleading others and collaborating
and trying to improvise what'shappening in the room.
And how do you combine somethings so that maybe not
everyone's getting exactly whatthey want, but they felt heard,
they felt like a piece of whatthey were kind of value as being
(09:14):
bolted on.
It's a skill.
Andrew McMasters (09:17):
It is, and especially these days, that idea
of I have felt heard.
Even if my idea didn't moveforward, I felt heard, I felt
included.
Now I'm engaged.
And I mean, every study youread, when you're engaging
employees, they put in extradiscretionary effort, and now
all of a sudden that increasesthe bottom line of the company.
So these are skills to helpyour financial benefit continue
(09:42):
to grow, your output continue togo.
I it's um it's fascinating tome to sort of think about that
too.
And one of the things I findwith a lot of new leaders is
they don't delineate between thetwo.
They get the idea of yes, andthey're like, yes, and but
that'll never work.
Yes, and but that'll neverwork.
Right.
So it's you're you're settingit up and you're shutting it
down, you're setting it up andyou're shutting it down, as
(10:03):
opposed to understanding thatthere is a time where you've got
um the divergent thinking.
SCOTT ALLEN (10:08):
Yeah.
Andrew McMasters (10:09):
We are we are considering possibilities.
We're putting everything on thetable.
Let's play with it.
Now let's analyze what we'vetalked about.
Now let's do convergentthinking.
What can we do and what can wewalk out of this meeting
deciding we're all going to dotogether?
Yes.
So making sure they're actuallydoing the two different thought
processes at different times,as opposed to at the same time,
which gives everybody thatfeeling of playing whack-a-mole.
(10:30):
Like, I'm I'm just not gettinganywhere.
Yeah.
So it's separating the thoughtprocesses and making sure that
you're doing it in a methodicalway so that you can actually
include everyone, analyze, andthen walk out of it with actual
action items that you're gonnado.
SCOTT ALLEN (10:43):
Yes, yes, 100%.
Well, and even, you know, asyou were as you were talking, I
I and you were talking aboutyour own theater where we're
gonna do an hour and a half of aDownton Abbey inspired.
I mean, I just think of some ofmy favorite comedic
experiences.
And of course, you know, youhave, I don't know how how much
(11:05):
you watched Parks and Wreck.
Oh, yeah.
Like historically, like theywould do the script, but then
they would also kind of go offand shoot some other stuff just
to see what emerged from theactors or spinal tap, you know,
the end continues, or whateverthat was called.
You know, the Rob Reiner andthat crew, right?
Many of whom I think were inSCTV for years.
(11:27):
I just watched an awesomedocumentary on John Candy.
So I had SCTV on the mind.
Oh, wow, cool.
Yeah, but I mean, you know,again, that improvisation, and
you have to be so focused.
I mean, it has to be incrediblydraining, right?
I mean, and it is for leadersas well to truly be present and
truly focused and trying tofigure out how to yes and and
(11:49):
collaborate and combine, it alsotakes energy.
Would you agree?
Andrew McMasters (11:53):
It does.
I and I think it also givesenergy.
It's one of those things thatit is such a heightened level of
you feel like everything'sfiring on all cylinders.
Yes.
Uh, I know for myself when I'vestepped off of the stage for a
great improv show, all of asudden I just feel like I don't
even know what happened.
It just it just magically sortof came out.
(12:15):
And those are the moments thatwe're looking for where you've
let go of who you are and you'vereally thought about the group.
I mean, one of the main rules Itell improvisers all the time
is make your scene partner lookgood.
Yes.
It's not about what you say,it's about how do I make them
look good.
And I think that's what you'relooking at too when you were
watching the thing on on JohnCandy and SCTV.
(12:36):
They're all externally focusingand thinking about how do I
make the other people around mesuccessful.
Yes.
That concept alone for businessis fascinating.
Oh, yeah.
How many times are peopleexternally focusing to go, how
do I help you?
How do I help you?
How do I help you?
As a leader, that's your job.
Yes.
I mean, I think that's a jobnumber one.
SCOTT ALLEN (12:56):
Oh, 100%.
And I think I think I used thewrong word, like energy.
I don't think it takespresence.
Oh, yeah, it does.
Right.
I mean, you have to be you haveto be present and mindful in
the moment.
And then and then again, we'vegot the the the yes and as a
tool in some ways, and thenthere's this underlying
foundation of how do I makeothers look good?
Andrew McMasters (13:20):
Yeah.
Oh, and and I think it's it'sboth to your point too.
It's the it's really takes alot of energy and it feels
energizing.
And then at some point youcrash.
You just do because it's toomuch, ah, you know, you feel
like you're on constantly.
So definitely crash afterwards,that's true.
SCOTT ALLEN (13:40):
Well, what are some other concepts that you see
translating from the two domainsin a really, really nice way?
I mean, I love that that otherorientation.
Am I making others look good?
And of course, yes, I mean,that's if you if you show up
with that mindset, it's gonna behard not to be successful.
I mean, that's obviously ageneralization, but it's just
(14:02):
it's a great mindset from whichto begin.
What are some other connectionsthat you see that just
translate beautifully?
Andrew McMasters (14:10):
Uh yeah, the biggest one, and I I tried to
put this in the book in the wayuh uh it's a lot of the things
actually that I see you talkingabout on on your podcast or it's
on your website as well.
It's the pieces of it's onething for me to to read about
it.
It's one free thing for me tothink about it.
The other thing is, are youdoing it?
And and that whole idea ofacting is doing.
(14:32):
You are taking this idea andputting it into action.
There are things you're doingmoving forward.
Uh, for me, it's always aboutthat experiential learning
piece.
Yeah, I want you to actuallytry it.
And then you have this physicalexperience of oh, what was that
like?
Yes.
And now I can take thatphysical experience and I can
intellectually tie it to howwould I use it moving forward.
(14:54):
So it's that practicalapplication piece.
And even in the book, I wrotethe first part is sort of about
okay, here's the issues that werun into.
The next part is what could wedo about it?
The third part are here are theexercises.
Yeah, do them, take them intoyour team, practice it.
This is the part where I wantyou to actually try it.
Don't just read about it, tryit, do it.
(15:16):
And then the last part is if wecould all do that, what what
would be possible?
Like what could we change?
How could things alter?
And that's sort of the idea.
I wanted it to be somethingwhere it's actually practical,
where a leader could take it andgo, all right, let's let's give
it a shot.
Here's the here's the exercise,here's the workbook, let's just
go through it and see what wefind.
Nice.
Um, that experimentation, Ithink, is the key.
(15:37):
That's where you find things.
SCOTT ALLEN (15:39):
Well, even as you were speaking just now, I mean,
I was reminded of a I was doinga session two weeks ago, and it
was about making work fun.
And so this was a constructioncompany.
So, yeah.
Cool, let's go, let's have theconversation.
And so I did a little segmenton gratitude.
And in real time, I just said,I want you to think of someone
(16:02):
that you probably should havethanked in the last two weeks,
but you just forgot to.
Uh, send those folks a textright now.
And it was amazing to watch itplay out, Andrew, because they
would send the text, and then agood portion of them, let's just
say it's 20, 30 percent,immediately get feedback from a
real human being that is like,you know what?
(16:25):
Thank you so much.
I really appreciate youchecking back in, or your
follow-up, or your your words ofpraise.
And and you could just see theroom, those people who got that
little dopamine hit back.
Yeah, it it just totallytransformed their energy.
And so, yes, how do we how dowe get to a place of practicing?
(16:48):
Because I could have just kindof kept it theoretical, and I
have in the past, where it'slike, oh, gratitude, it's
important.
Do it.
No, let's try it, let'sactually experiment a little bit
and see what this is like,right?
Andrew McMasters (17:00):
And and I'm even, I mean, I get down to the
the pragmatic part of it of Ilike to schedule it.
Uh, a friend of mine, uh DarrenNerland, who uh does
Learnapalooza, a bunch ofdifferent things here in the
Pacific Northwest, he has downin his calendar a thing called
random spontaneity.
Yes.
And it's like every Friday at acertain time.
And it's like when that goesoff, you go, Who have and I
(17:21):
reached out to?
Hey, just thinking about youand just hope everything's going
well, and here's this.
And it's just those times toremind yourself to touch base
with people, say thank you.
Wow, been thinking about you,hope things are going well.
I mean, I think that does abunch of different things.
It helps you out with what isthat person doing?
How are they suddenly thinkingof you?
(17:42):
What else is going on?
Um, the feeling that you gettoo of just saying, hey, thank
you.
SCOTT ALLEN (17:47):
I was thinking about you.
It was great.
100%.
But I love the fact that youare operationalizing it and
challenging people to experiencesome of these things in the
moment, in real time, becausethat's absolutely critical,
right?
Yeah, yeah.
Andrew McMasters (18:04):
I love you were saying that exercise of
doing that.
One of the ones that I've donebefore for people is I just have
them walk around and meet eachother in a room and say, How did
you start working here?
And what do you love about it?
And then it's like, okay,great, find someone else, do it
again.
Find someone else, do it again.
And after about three, fourtimes, then we go, What are you
hearing that's the commonality?
(18:25):
And in a way, you sort of findthese beautiful, they're almost
values that the entire room hadthat they didn't realize they
had.
Yes, yes, it's beautiful, likehearing those things.
SCOTT ALLEN (18:36):
Oh, oh, 100%, right?
I mean, that that kind of um inthe same session, I had I had
participants write down answersto to three questions on three
different index cards.
And there were 140 people inthe room, so 140 times three
number of index cards kind ofwent up and were posted around
(19:00):
the room.
And it was so interesting tojust kind of debrief that with
the group.
One participant said, you know,20 minutes ago, all of that was
just inside us and not known.
Yeah.
And this very quick shift ofnow I'm seeing hundreds.
(19:21):
And I saw my name up there acouple of times, and it felt
really, really wonderful thatsomeone had encouraged.
And but it's so amazing to methose things that are kind of in
us and maybe not expressed, butcould be, and the difference
that that makes in a space,right?
And just no different than yes,and that that subtle rule just
(19:41):
totally shifts the energy.
And I mean, I love those typesof things.
It's fascinating.
Andrew McMasters (19:48):
It it is, and and also what I love what you're
describing too is you'veallowed the space for that to
happen.
And I I think, you know, to behonest, when we talk about
listening and I and I focus onlistening, I find that people
don't provide the space forthat.
I have the idea or my agenda,or oh, you know what, you just
(20:09):
talked about that and I'msuddenly solutioning in my head,
or we don't have time for this,or what do they need from me,
or I have other things to do,like all of these other things
that fill up the head as opposedto let me just allow space for
it.
Yes.
Wow, okay, this is what I'mhearing.
Tell me if I'm hearing thatcorrectly.
Great.
Now we have clarity.
Let's try and figure out sothose things, the space for it,
(20:33):
like you said, the space forsomeone to go, I saw my name on
these cards.
Wow.
Yeah.
That's beautiful.
That is so, I mean, it's spinejingling for me.
It's just amazing.
SCOTT ALLEN (20:45):
Well, but also to your point, the space for us to
really be present and have aconversation and a dialogue and
to truly try and take in whatthis other person is is saying.
Um I think we get distractedday to day.
I love the idea of that kind ofrandom spontaneity, like it's
(21:08):
planned for, but the day takesover.
Yeah.
Teams meeting after teamsmeeting after teams meeting.
I'm just surviving.
I'm not necessarily movingthrough that with a level of
presence.
When those leaders who do movethrough that with a level of
presence, who do move throughthat with creating that space,
(21:28):
uh, those people are ninjas.
They they are Jedi's, and I Icome across them and I'm just in
awe.
I really am.
Yeah.
Because it's not easy.
Andrew McMasters (21:40):
No, it's not.
And and you know, I even lookback at the mistakes that I
made, you know, running mycompany.
Because again, I didn't have alot of training doing that.
No.
Um, there was one time Iremember like I was working
there and someone came in andtalked to me, and I'm like,
Yeah, okay.
And I'm talking to them, I'mtalking to them.
And afterwards, my wife, who itwas there visiting, looked at
me and said, You know, you nevertook your eyes off the keyboard
(22:02):
the entire time you talked tothem.
Yes.
And that that hits me just like,oh, wow, I continued to work on
this, even though they'retalking to me about something.
Yeah, yeah, okay.
Oh, totally cool.
And not even making eyecontact, not being present, as
you said, with with them, beingavailable, making that space for
them to continue to talk to me.
(22:24):
Yep.
And if I don't make that space,I can't hear the next brilliant
innovation that's going to helpus to take the next step.
So, you know, I'm kind ofscrewing myself in a way.
SCOTT ALLEN (22:32):
Oh, yeah.
No, 100%.
You can't hear it.
You literally can't.
And you also miss a lot of goodthat's happening in front of
you because there's a number ofpeople who are showing up, doing
their part, giving what you youknow, discretionary effort.
And I I see this at times aswell.
(22:53):
That's why some of these hacks,like the Friday spontaneity, is
such a great idea, becausethey're happening.
Are we seeing them?
And are we acknowledging?
And those are again littledopamine hits that we know what
it feels like when you work forsomeone who's missed the
opportunity to say, thank you,that was awesome.
(23:14):
I appreciate you for months ata time.
Yeah.
And slowing down, how are theretools that you use?
I mean, even just like thestory you shared of your wife
just now, where I mean, beingopen to feedback and being known
as someone who's open tofeedback is incredibly
important.
And your wife felt like shecould give you that feedback,
which is great.
But are there are there toolsthat you've come across or ways
(23:37):
you think about how we helppeople slow down and get into
that space?
How do you think about that?
Andrew McMasters (23:44):
I this is where I kind of started to
focus.
It feels to me like it startswith how we show up listening.
Yeah.
And uh, and the first thing thatI end up doing is is getting
people to shut down what'shappening in your head.
And and again, it it'sdifficult to shut down what's
happening in your head becauseif you say, okay, don't, you
know, just just focus, don't dothis, don't do this.
(24:05):
That doesn't work.
Yeah, exactly.
Right.
Don't think about a pinkelephant.
What am I doing?
Right.
Um so it's giving the brain ajob.
And one of the first pieces Ido is, okay, whatever they're
saying, you're gonna encapsulatethis into one sentence.
Okay.
So now I'm sitting therethinking, okay, what is it?
(24:26):
What is it?
Great.
What I'm hearing is this.
The next step, which I think isis leaning a little bit more
onto that that feeling, makingthe space like we've been
talking about, is you know,based on what you said, what I'm
hearing is this is what youreally care about.
This is what you really value.
Tell me if I'm hearing thatcorrectly.
And again, I haven't startedinto solutions or what we could
(24:47):
do or possibilities.
I'm just reflecting back.
Wow, it sounds to me likefairness is something you really
care about.
Tell me if I'm hearing thatcorrectly.
Yep.
It sounds to me like you reallyvalue education.
Yeah, uh, and if I can startreflecting back what they value,
what they care about, suddenlythat conversation turns about
something else.
(25:07):
And and I, you know, to behonest, again, being pragmatic,
I teach this for salespeoplebecause I find a lot of times
they're like, I know what I haveto sell.
Someone mentioned something,ha, I know how to position it.
Great.
And they're all thinking aboutpositioning as opposed to just
have a conversation.
SCOTT ALLEN (25:23):
Yes.
Andrew McMasters (25:24):
And the minute you can start reflecting back,
it sounds to me like this iswhat you really care about.
Tell me if that's correct.
Yep.
Suddenly that got deeper.
Yes.
And we are now having a wholedifferent conversation.
Yes.
And now that conversation islike, well, you know, maybe some
of our products could actuallyfulfill that for you.
Let's talk about that.
It it's a it it changes thedynamic.
SCOTT ALLEN (25:47):
100%.
I mean, you're getting into uhwhat I what I love about that is
you're you're moving intovalues, yeah, emotion.
Um it's a deeper, it's a deeperlevel conversation, fairness,
equity, um, being heard.
Uh you're you're getting intokind of a deeper level that now
(26:11):
becomes a pretty realconversation.
Yeah.
That again, to your point,other salespeople, they're
probably so eye-consumed,eye-focused, not focused on
helping the other person shine,the other person look good,
because ultimately that's whatthat person who's buying this
product probably they want to bethought well of.
(26:32):
They want to be thought thatthey're doing a good job, that
they've brought somethingvaluable to the table.
And you're connecting with themat just a deeper level.
I love that.
I absolutely love that.
Andrew McMasters (26:42):
I and I I think it leads to a little bit
too of what you said of how thatleader shows up.
After you start to practicethat and after you start to
listen for it, then it's thatidea of, well, what do I really
care about?
I mean, I I was running aprogram called an ROI on time
and getting people who areconsultants to sort of think of
(27:02):
where do you spend your time?
Yeah.
And what do you say you value?
Uh the majority of them I foundwere always like top value was
family, family, family.
And then we'd look at theircalendar and go, okay, well,
you've you've missed your lastthree soccer games that your kid
was playing in because you hadmeetings.
So if you're gonna say familyis a top value, are you actually
(27:24):
living that value?
And and I feel like, in a way,yes, there's so much work, you
have so much to do.
But when you can demonstratethat you're living that value,
the people around you see that.
Yeah.
And then that changes howthey're working, and it changes
it, it's it's real, yeah.
As opposed to, no, we're allwe're all working, you know,
(27:46):
we're muzzling it through, whichdoesn't get you anywhere.
Yeah.
So I think it's that again, thatvalue of like I believe in this
value and I live this value,and you can see this value
reflected in my actions and mydecisions and the things that I
do moving forward and the way mycalendar is.
Yes, my values are reflectingthat.
SCOTT ALLEN (28:06):
Well, and uh, I mean, what I love about this now
too is that that thatcongruence then shines through.
I mean, you've worked with theleader who said the right thing,
but their behavior, thecongruence wasn't there.
Uh, the energy wasn't congruentwith even or their calendar
told the real story.
I mean, there's a lack ofcongruence.
(28:27):
And when you're I had a gueston recently who um who kind of
spoke to the spirit of this, butyou know, that inner space,
it's gonna show up in yourbehavior, and it's either
congruent and it's it's it'saligned or it's not.
And we can Alanis Morriset, I'ma Gen Xer, so uh she had a
(28:50):
line.
I I feel right through you.
And I've said that a few timeson the podcast recently, but you
can feel when there's actualalignment there, and you can
feel maybe when there isn't thatalignment there, right?
Yeah, yeah.
Andrew McMasters (29:02):
And and I think that then as a leader,
everyone is looking to you.
Oh, yeah.
You are you are modeling thatbehavior.
Yep.
Uh I know for myself the firsttime I sat in a staff meeting
and I picked up my my phone tolook at something.
I've now given everyone in thatroom the permission to look at
their phone.
Yeah.
So if I really am asking you tobe here and to be available, I
(29:27):
need to set that model.
I need to set the standard.
That means living through myvalues.
That means not picking up myphone.
That means being here andlistening and being present and
not just staring at my keyboardwhile you talk.
It it's all those things thatyou you start to realize I'm I
am playing this role, you know,um, and I have to show up this
(29:47):
way for my team.
SCOTT ALLEN (29:48):
100%.
I mean, literally this week Iwas in a meeting where the
senior leader in theconversation, small group
conversation, let's go fivepeople plus this individual, is
for a large faction of theconversation, just literally
looking down at the phone, everyonce in a while looking up,
looking down, and and checkedout.
(30:10):
And I mean, I wish there was aa way I could have been a little
more forceful and upfront withthat individual as to how they
were showing up and theramifications of that, but it
is.
It's just really now.
If I were to empathize, thatperson's being pulled in a
thousand directions.
There's a there's, you know, wecan we can go down all the
reasons why they weredistracted.
(30:32):
But if that's the case, I couldstep, get up, I could say, Hey,
you know what?
I got a little bit of a fire,I'll be back in a moment.
And there's just that socialawareness of okay, I'm not
acting in congruence here,probably with what I would
expect from my team, because Iwouldn't want them to all be on
their device right now, totallychecked out.
So, do I have that social andemotional intelligence to say,
(30:54):
you know what, got a little bitof a fire, I'm gonna be back in
a moment, and then come back, bepresent, lock in.
But that again, oof.
Andrew McMasters (31:03):
Well, being aware of the impact that that
behavior is having on the team.
And and I I equate this alittle bit on listening too,
because in the book I talk aboutit's not just what I'm hearing,
it's not just auditory, it'swhat am I seeing that is the
reaction, you know?
All of a sudden I saw someonelean back in their chair in a
way.
Well, did I hear that?
(31:24):
You know, because that isthat's something that I have to
take as that social cue thatthen says, okay, there's
something else happening here.
Um, I I'm working with uh aleader right now who's in the
process of a transition.
So the big general manager'sleaving and he's taking Taking
over, and there's sort of a longtransition period.
And he was telling me that theother general manager is going
(31:45):
to be doing this town hall.
And he's going to beintroduced, but then he's up
front.
And he said, There's a lot ofstuff he's doing, I just don't
agree with.
And I said, That's fine.
You're down front.
You got to smile, nod, and say,Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, because everyone'swatching you.
Yes.
When he's gone and you're incharge, you can do other things.
That's fine.
Right now, be the team player.
(32:07):
Smile, nod, be present.
Go, yeah, okay, good.
Because everyone's looking atyou.
And be aware that that iswhat's happening.
You know, you are modelingwhatever you need to see.
And the minute you go, oh no,that's gonna change the dynamic
in the room.
SCOTT ALLEN (32:25):
Well, and as an actor, yeah, see those
nonverbals.
I mean, exactly.
Again, you're trained to seethe eyes get bigger or sitting
back in the crossed arms.
And it it's again, I see somany connections from world to
world that are just incrediblyvaluable, right?
(32:48):
Yeah.
Andrew McMasters (32:51):
It kind of started, sorry, I did kind of go
back on this.
It kind of started for me.
For many years, I worked forMicrosoft, Apple Computer, and I
stood on stage and I demoedhardware or software.
Okay.
Um, and that was my job.
So I started to realize that Iwas being hired to stand in
front of a thousand people andpretend that I worked at Apple
Computer.
And the reason was is becausethe people who had written this
(33:14):
were too afraid to stand upthere and talk about something,
something that they were sopassionate about they had spent
five years of their livesdeveloping.
Yes.
And that's the part that saidto me, Well, wait a minute, what
if I can train you?
What if I can help you to bringthat out?
Yeah.
What if I can help you to showup fully because this is yours?
(33:34):
Yes.
I it's sure.
As an actor, I can do that.
I can find that passion, I canfind the cool thing, I can do
that.
What I want to do is I startasking you, well, what's cool
about it?
What do you love?
Oh, and they light up, right?
Oh, they light up, right?
Even though it's server loadbalancing, they're going, Oh,
okay, the packets come in, andthen they're starting to all
right.
And you you watch them justfire up, and that's what we're
(33:57):
talking about.
That I want that passion.
That's what's going to excitepeople, that's what's going to
draw people around you to say,Yeah, yeah, I want to follow
this person.
Look at the passion, look atthe excitement.
So it's drawing those thingsout.
It's really acting training.
SCOTT ALLEN (34:13):
Yeah, well, it no, a hundred percent.
It is, it really, really is.
I do some work with somecardiac surgeons, and oh
sometimes I'll push, I'll I'llI'll just it'll be it'll be
presentation training, and andit'll be okay.
Let's just do a quick pause.
Are you excited about theseresearch results?
I mean, I have no clue whatthey mean, it's just like
something pumping and you know,images, and and they're like,
(34:35):
Yeah, this is reallygroundbreaking.
Andrew McMasters (34:36):
And I'm like, Well, could you I don't see that
I'm not feeling it right now.
SCOTT ALLEN (34:44):
Could you say intrigued?
I mean, even that word wouldcause a little bit of intrigued
by the results we found.
Andrew McMasters (34:53):
Exactly.
And I I almost um I had almosttaken a position.
I sort of started my owncompany and went my own
direction, but I almost took aposition at the um Stony Brook,
uh, which basically is the AlanAlda School of Communicating
Science.
Yeah, and this was the samething.
Here's Alan Alda, who's anactor who suddenly realized all
of these scientists couldn't gettheir idea across because it
(35:13):
was all science, science,science, science.
And it's like, are you excitedabout this?
Same thing.
Like, what's cool about this,surgeon?
Please tell me.
I want that to come out.
Um, yeah, it's it's soimportant.
SCOTT ALLEN (35:27):
It's incredible.
And I'm like, well, okay.
Maybe tell me why that is,because I want to know.
Yeah.
Tell me the story.
Uh so as we begin to wind ourwind down our time, is there
anything else about the bookthat you want listeners to know?
So that um, I of course we'regonna have links in the show
(35:47):
notes.
So um, anything else that youwant to say about it?
Andrew McMasters (35:51):
You know, the main thing that I think I really
want, and I think this issomething I use for leaders all
across the board, and and forthe book, I tried to put this in
is really the what am I tryingto accomplish?
What's my intention?
And then how am I gonna startgetting towards it so that I can
start to set out this is mygoal.
Yeah, this is what I want todo.
Uh, one of the pieces ofresearch that I love to sort of
(36:12):
cite is um that it was a collegeresearch, they took 450
arachnophobes, okay, peopledeathly afraid of spiders, and
they put them in a room with atarantula in a glass box in the
middle of the room.
Okay.
And they said, try and getclose to it.
And they told one group, like,talk about anything else, like
sports, the weather, you know.
They told another group, like,don't think about anything,
(36:33):
don't talk about anything.
However, they had a group thatthey said, talk about how you're
feeling, talk about what'sgetting in your way.
And that group was able to getcloser to the spider.
Some of them were able to reachin and touch it.
Wow.
So cognitively, what we've beenable to find is just that idea
of if you can identify what itis you want, what you're working
(36:55):
on, that helps you to start tomove towards that.
It's even just identifying itfor yourself, saying it out
loud, writing it down, whateverit is.
And so I think that's sort ofthe thing is if you want to be a
better listener, it's reallythat idea of like, oh great, I
got the book.
I'd really love for you towrite down in the front of the
book, what do you want?
Yeah.
Or say it out loud to someone.
(37:16):
Yes.
That I think helps you to getthe tools to actually start to
go, what am I doing here?
Yes.
SCOTT ALLEN (37:21):
Yeah.
And and we will, you know, myfriend John A.
Cove says, you know,imperfectly move forward, right?
It's not gonna be steps forwardand steps back.
We're gonna make mistakes andwe're gonna sometimes show up
and have our head buried in thecomputer and not pay attention
like we should.
But that awareness builds.
And if we truly value that,we'll get better.
(37:43):
We will.
I mean, it's there's thatmotivation to learn, and but
oof, I love it.
I love it.
Well, hey, okay, so I alwaysend the conversation by saying
or asking, I should say, whathave you been listening to,
streaming, reading?
What's caught your attentionrecently that you may be of
interest to to listeners?
(38:03):
It does could have to do withwhat we've just discussed.
It may have nothing to do withwhat we've just discussed.
And I'll play as well.
I'll I'll share something withyou.
But I'm gonna wait for you toshare yours, and then maybe
that'll spark something.
Andrew McMasters (38:16):
I I mean, you know, the hardest thing for me
right now is I I have a coupledifferent I have piles of books,
you know, having just finishedSabina's book a little while
ago.
Yes, yes, which you had Sabinaon the on the podcast.
Um, I have piles of businessbooks, but I keep trying to
intersperse it with differentthings.
And uh, and I just startedpicking up the Slow Horses book
after seeing the show on AppleTV.
(38:37):
Was that good?
It's the show is phenomenal.
The acting is uh is really,really top-notch.
It's beautiful, beautiful towatch.
And the twists and turns, yeah.
And the books are also really,really well done.
So I think right now I'm in alittle bit of a yeah, a little
nerd out on my slow horses sortof thing.
SCOTT ALLEN (38:57):
That's my no, I I think you know, I think we
started watching like the firstepisode, and for some reason it
just I don't know what it was.
It wasn't the right night, orit just we were distracted by
something else not beingpresent, probably.
But um, you know, we need togive that another shot.
Because I think is there a newseason out?
Is that what it was that thenew season?
Yeah, yeah, a new season is outtoo.
(39:19):
I just finished that one lastnight, so that's why.
Okay, so so I I I have not seenit yet, but Andrew, I don't
know if you've seen the trailerfor the Bruce Springsteen movie,
and I'm not a huge BruceSpringsteen fan, but I have gone
out and I've listened toNebraska.
The storytelling in that isincredible, and then Jeremy
(39:40):
Allen White.
I mean, my gosh, between what Iexpect this performance to be,
I'm I'm excited to see it.
I just really am.
Andrew McMasters (39:51):
I it okay, so I'm just gonna piggyback on that
for a moment because as I said,I grew up outside of
Philadelphia, I spent my entireyouth driving to the Jersey
Shore.
So Bruce Springsteen is a partof my growing up and my life in
so many ways.
My my regret is I did not getto New York to see him on
Broadway.
Uh he was doing his one-personshow.
(40:13):
I saw the video of it, theyhave it on Netflix.
Uh so if you want to see that,that's wonderful.
But yeah, I can't wait for thatmovie either.
I just cannot win, cannot wait.
SCOTT ALLEN (40:21):
It it was funny because Jeremy Allen White's
being interviewed, and and sothe the the interviewer said, So
you learned guitar.
And and he said, Well, I got tothe first lesson with my
teacher, and he said, We willnot be learning guitar, we will
be learning five Bruce songs,and that is all, you know.
So he was like, Have youlearned guitar?
(40:42):
He's like, No, I know thesefive songs.
Yep.
You know, oh anytime you know,Val Kilmer when he sang the
music of the doors, orindividuals are performing in
that way.
And actually, um, the thegentleman who played Bob Dylan
in that film a couple years ago,um, he just escaped me.
Doom.
Uh shamal, uh Shamalon.
Andrew McMasters (41:05):
Uh yeah, it's it's yeah.
Timothy Shalomet.
Shalomet, that's it.
Thank you.
I knew it was there somewhere.
I'm like, it's not M.
Night Shalon, it's Chalamet.
Got it.
All right.
SCOTT ALLEN (41:16):
Yeah, it wasn't it wasn't crop circles type stuff.
It wasn't Bruce Willis and Isee dead people, but there we
go, right.
Yeah, yes, yeah.
Well, Andrew, I really, reallyappreciate your time.
As as I said, we will havelinks in the show notes.
And so, listeners, please feelfree to click on that, purchase
that, and um I you know what,sir.
(41:36):
I just I really, reallyappreciate you, and thank you so
much for your time today.
Thank you.
Andrew McMasters (41:41):
I appreciate being here, and this is
wonderful.
SCOTT ALLEN (41:43):
I I feel energized from this, so this is great.
Andrew McMasters (41:45):
Thank you.
SCOTT ALLEN (41:46):
Me too.
Me have a wonderful weekend.
Thanks, you too.
Bye-bye.
So I've had a couple episodesaround improv, a little bit on
acting, but I'm just more andmore amazed at this space and
the conversation and how itrelates to leadership and leader
development.
(42:06):
I think an advanced skill isreally remaining present and
mindful about how we areinteracting with others
throughout the day.
That energy that we're puttingout, as Jonathan Reims would
say, leaders create the weather,and it's hard to hide that
(42:27):
inner state of yourself.
Whether you're a parent orwhether you're leading in an
organization, it's difficult tohide that inner state.
So are we aware?
Are we present?
Are we mindful?
And in the moment, paying closeattention to how we're showing
up.
And for me, I think that's anext level skill of great
(42:50):
managers and great leaders.
And to Andrew, thank you somuch for that conversation.
Very much appreciate it.
To all of you, as always,thanks for checking in.
Bye bye.
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