November 19, 2025 • 39 mins
Jon Macaskill is a retired Navy SEAL Commander turned speaker, mindfulness teacher, and leadership coach. Over his 24-year military career, he led special operations organizations ranging from 16 men to over 2,500 people. Today, he blends hard-earned military lessons with mindful leadership tools to help individuals and organizations grow through resilience, grit, and compassion. At the heart of it all, he uses his voice, presence, and past (especially the hard parts) to help others unlock their potential.
A Couple of Quotes From This Episode
- “Being nice feels good in the moment. Being kind is longer lasting.”
- “I would rather not pick a side and join the two sides than pick a side and divide us.”
Resources Mentioned in This Episode
- Jon's Website
- Book: Outlive: The Science and Art of Longevity by Peter Attia.
- Book: Lifespan by David Sinclair
About The International Leadership Association (ILA)
- The ILA was created in 1999 to bring together professionals interested in studying, practicing, and teaching leadership.
About Scott J. Allen
- Website
- Weekly Newsletter: Practical Wisdom for Leaders
My Approach to Hosting
- The views of my guests do not constitute "truth." Nor do they reflect my personal views in some instances. However, they are views to consider, and I hope they help you clarify your perspective. Nothing can replace your reflection, research, and exploration of the topic.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Scott Allen (01:39):
Okay, everybody, welcome to Practical Wisdom for
Leaders.
Thank you so much for checkingin wherever you are in the
world.
Today, Jon Macaskill, and he isa retired U.S.
Navy SEAL commander, LinkedIntop voice in masculinity and
traditionalism, a leadershipconsultant and mindfulness
teacher, co-host of the MenTalking Mindfulness Podcast, and
(02:00):
he is a keynote speaker ongrit, compassion, resilience.
Jon, thank you.
What's not in your bio that Ijust quickly kind of covered
that people should know aboutyou, sir?
Thank you so much for beinghere.
Jon Macaskill (02:13):
Uh well, Scott, thanks for having me.
Uh, I know we've known oneanother for a while now, and
this is the first time thatwe've connected uh virtually
like this, and uh hopefully downthe road we'll connect in real
life.
Yes.
But yeah, I think the thebiggest thing that is not in the
bio there, um, it is in mytagline on LinkedIn is dad
first.
Uh, you know, married uh threeyoung kiddos.
(02:34):
So I'm 48, but I've got asix-year-old, or sorry, an
eight-year-old, a six-year-old,and a four-year-old.
Okay.
So I got I got started late,but uh, I like to say that I'm
vintage and have a lot of wisdomto share with them.
So uh yeah, that's that's thepiece that was missing.
Scott Allen (02:50):
Oh, that's awesome.
We have three as well.
We have twin girls that are 15and a son 17.
So we're we're a little furtherdown the road, but so much fun,
isn't it?
I mean, and talk about amirror, right?
Of where you need to learn,develop, and grow.
Jon Macaskill (03:06):
Big time.
Oh my gosh, my kids call me outall the time on my on my my BS.
Scott Allen (03:15):
Yes, they're fantastic.
Yes, yes.
Well, no one, you know, beforewe had kids, I I was a little
bit older, I think, when I'm 53,so a little bit older when we
had kids too.
But I it was all theseconversations of oh, diapers,
and we used to have a life, andwe know all this kind of like
commiserating, but it has beenso much fun.
(03:38):
And there's things that arelike these wonderful surprises.
Like, for instance, no one eversaid to me, like, hey, you are
gonna craft and shape yourchildren's sense of humor, for
instance, right?
And there's this moment wherewe're watching elf probably
around your kid's age, andthey're laughing at all the
right, the sarcasm, the irony,they're laughing at everything.
(04:00):
And I looked at my wife and Ijust gave her this kind of like,
okay, we're winning type.
And and so we've been goingthrough all of the comedies of
the 80s and the 90s, andbeautiful night, what we
watched.
We watched a documentary on JonCandy, and then we watched
Space Balls.
Jon Macaskill (04:17):
I saw that.
Oh my gosh, Space Balls, what aclassic! Yeah, we uh we just
brought them into ET.
And uh, I know uh it was funny.
I was like, there's only onebad word in it, and and then I
realized watching it, there'sseveral bad words in it, they're
not terrible, but I was like,uh well, I watched this when I
was seven years old, so I didn'tturn out too bad.
Scott Allen (04:39):
One loved it.
Yeah, great film, and uh PGmeant something different then.
Yeah, um, if you watch theoriginal airplane, be careful.
Jon Macaskill (04:51):
Oh my goodness, yeah.
Yeah, there's a lot in thatone.
Oh, I forgot OJ is a naked gun.
I was trying, yeah, yeah.
Scott Allen (05:05):
Oh well, you know, I I'm so excited for our
conversation today, andobviously you bring so much to
the table, so much experience,wisdom, and uh especially around
this topic of leadership.
But I think where I want tostart the conversation is what
have you been thinking aboutrecently?
(05:25):
I mean, as you kind of navigateum your work, what's kind of
top of mind for you?
What's catching your attentionthese days?
Jon Macaskill (05:34):
Yeah.
Um, it's probably what'scatching most people's
attention.
Uh, and and I don't want to gotoo far down this rabbit hole,
but it's the politicalenvironment that we're in right
now.
And uh, you know, I don't wantto speak negatively or
positively.
I want to be neutral becausethat's where I think most of
(05:54):
America is.
Yeah.
But social media and news mediafocus on the the polar, uh, the
ends of the polar spectrums andum kind of sow this
divisiveness.
And I I wish that our leaderson either side of the aisle uh
would step up and and try tobring us together as a country
(06:20):
rather than dividing us.
I mean, the the old saying, uh,you know, united we, what is it
to together we oh man, I'm I'mmissing it.
Scott Allen (06:31):
I mean, divided, we fall.
Jon Macaskill (06:33):
Yeah, that's that's yeah, together we stand,
divided, we fall.
There you go.
See, I need I need more coffee,but yes, that's that's so true.
Um and I think that's where youknow leadership in politics,
leadership in organizations,leadership within the military.
Yes, there are times we we'regoing to have to go uh you know
(06:54):
one way or the other that mayupset one side or the other.
But there's also times when weneed to see, okay, what can
bring us together as anorganization, what can develop
our culture so that we can workum towards a common goal.
And uh that's that's what'sbeen on my mind uh as of late.
(07:15):
Um yeah, so I think that'sprobably what's on a lot of
people's minds.
Scott Allen (07:20):
Yeah, you know, I let's let's let's stay on this
for a little bit because I thinkit's really, really important.
I was saying to a friend theother day, I mean, it's it's a
multi, maybe even trillion.
I don't know.
Someone smarter than me withnumbers would know, but it's a
multi-billion dollar industry tokeep us divided, to keep us
(07:41):
agitated, to keep us anxious, tokeep us clicking, to keep us uh
scared, anxious, nervous.
And it's really, reallyfascinating.
I imagine like thiscorporation, just call it
division.
And the if it was on the Dow, Imean, it's billions and
billions of dollars, right?
I mean, regardless of where youare, this this kind of news
(08:02):
entertainment, however we wantto define that, whether it's
rush or rachel, um it it it init it keeps us it keeps us
inflamed.
And so, you know, I sat down onthe airplane the other day, and
this woman looked at me.
I she hadn't even sat down yet.
She's like, You Republican?
Oh my goodness.
I looked at her and I said,that had that escalated quickly.
(08:25):
She kind of laughed.
But you know, it wasinteresting because um I said,
we're probably not thatdissimilar, right?
And and she said, Well, what doyou mean?
And I said, Well, okay, uh,right to bear arms, you believe
in that?
She's like, Yeah, yeah, yeah,sure.
And I'm like, military-gradeweapons on the streets, just
kind of you know, easy to get,no, right.
(08:47):
And she's like, Yeah, no,that's not good.
And okay, we're we're we'reclose.
Um, have immigrants built thiscountry, yeah, in many ways,
yeah, for sure.
Should we let them across theborder just kind of you know,
willy-nilly, and there's noprocess?
No, no, I I agree with you, andprobably US presidents for the
last 50 years haven't been ableto kind of figure out that
(09:07):
puzzle and and fix it.
And so we had this reallywonderful conversation.
Nice, but you know, I think itis, it's so interesting.
The the the divisiveness is bigbusiness, it's making trillions
trillions.
Jon Macaskill (09:22):
Yeah, I would I would I would bet that it is
making trillions.
Um you know, and again, I don'twant to go too far down this
path, but yes, that's and thatthat's where I think leadership
needs to step in, is to say, youknow what?
Um these 24-hour news networks,social media, um, they are
(09:43):
dividing the country.
This is the truth, and speakthe truth.
Um, or get a network thatspeaks the truth rather than
dividing us and show that, yes,exactly.
Like you just said, we have waymore in common uh than we have
different, at least most of us.
And uh I think that's what weneed to celebrate.
Now, granted, that that doesn'tsell.
(10:04):
It doesn't sell.
Scott Allen (10:05):
Well, that's the thing.
Like you and I should in thenext 25 minutes figure out how
we monetize the middle, like youknow, like Republicans and
Democrats, they theycollaborated today, you know.
Like how do we monetize that?
Because we would make billionsif we could monetize that.
I mean, it's it is, it's sointeresting.
(10:27):
And us as humans and our ownkind of biology that that is
clicking, that is, that is dupedisn't the word I want to use,
but we're seduced very quicklyinto uh into clicking.
And yeah, it's it gone are thedays of kind of like what you
(10:48):
just said, the Walter Cronkite,like, okay, that's the way it
is.
And you know, generallyspeaking, that's kind of where
we are as a country.
And everyone went to bed, andthere was a similar, at least,
mindset about where we were, andand now we just have these
different realities, right?
Jon Macaskill (11:04):
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, if you watch thedifferent networks, it's as
we're living in a differentworld.
Yeah.
Scott Allen (11:09):
So well, and and so how do you think about that?
I mean, when you uh and and soyour work in mindfulness is so
incredible on on a number ofdifferent levels, but it's
almost like collectivemindfulness.
How do we how do wecollectively be more mindful?
I don't know.
I just how how do you see theintersection of mindfulness and
(11:32):
some of what we've justdiscussed?
Jon Macaskill (11:34):
Yeah.
Well, I think it comes down touh a lot of what mindfulness is,
is just awareness withoutjudgment.
And that latter part is the isthe key.
Is not judging what you'refeeling physically, not judging
what you're feeling emotionally,just being in it.
And that I think helps tofoster several things.
(11:58):
One, it uh helps to fosteremotional regulation so that you
can have a conversation withoutgetting really upset.
Yeah, uh, you know, aconversation with somebody with
differing viewpoints.
It also helps to foster empathyand compassion.
So not only does it regulateyour emotions when you're having
a conversation, but it alsohelps you to potentially see the
(12:22):
other person's viewpoint.
Understand, you may notunderstand their viewpoint, but
you can understand, okay, thisis where they're coming from,
this is their background, thisis how they were raised, this is
where they were raised, andthis is why they see things
differently than I do.
And I think that's wheremindfulness can come into that
collective mindfulness.
I like that term.
(12:42):
Yeah, you know, as as a as acountry, like you mentioned at
the beginning, uh, one of thethings that I speak about is
compassion.
Um, and that is one thing thatwe could foster through through
mindfulness, through havingmindful conversations, through
having mindful uh meetingstogether.
(13:03):
Um uh representative Tim Ryan,I think it was a representative,
um, he may have been a senator.
Um I'm forgetting now.
No, Wisconsin.
Yeah, yep, yep, yep.
Yeah, so uh he was uh at um hewas developing the mindful
nation within Congress.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
Really?
Jon Macaskill (13:24):
Since left.
But yeah, he really tried tobring in mindfulness into
Congress um with marginalsuccess, but we need more heart
in Congress than money.
And uh that's unfortunately notthe case right now.
Scott Allen (13:41):
Yeah, you know, it it's um I had a I had a
professor, Barbara Kellerman,she was at the Harvard Kennedy
School for years, and she's justa wizard.
And she said, you know, um, insome ways our country is running
some old software, and some ofthat old software, uh, it has
some bugs.
And you know, even things like,you know, when it was justice
(14:04):
for life, well, you know, thatwas the the the person died.
In that case, the man died atabout 67.
So life wasn't all thatunreasonable, but you get to
like, you know, 90, and youknow, it it's different, or
right to bear arms, sure, butthat probably the founders
couldn't conceive of what thatcould mean someday.
(14:24):
I mean, right, and and so it'sjust an interesting kind of um
kind of observation on some ofwhat we're seeing now, or or the
system kind of elevates theextremes in the primary process,
you know?
(14:44):
Oh and that's that's kind ofsomething that's been kind of
discovered and and utilized andabused, and um so it's so
interesting, but I I love thefact I I hadn't heard that that
Ryan had really proposedmindfulness at that level.
Yeah, it's like we're so busydoing, going, producing,
(15:05):
reacting that it's so hard toslow down, even as I work with
corporate executives, it's sohard to slow down and be present
and aware.
We're just ping ping ping.
Jon Macaskill (15:16):
I think that's that's one of the hardest places
it is to be to be present andslow down, because you know, in
the in the military, it actuallyit actually pays to be present
and slow down and assess.
And really it pays everywhereto do that.
But the common misconception isthat as you do more and more
(15:38):
and more, and as you do moreefficiently, um that you're
going to increase the bottomline.
And to some point, to someextent, that's true.
But eventually you're gonnaburn your people out, you're
gonna burn yourself out.
And if you do stop and pauseand use the term reactive,
(16:00):
that's absolutely when Imeditate, one of my mantras, as
I breathe in, I say morepatient, and as I breathe out, I
say less reactive.
And I mean that that that rightthere, if you can respond
versus react, you know, whetherit's with my kids in the morning
putting their shoes on, yeah,or not in their case, not
(16:21):
putting their shoes on, uh, allthe way to uh the politics that
we were just talking about, wecould all afford to slow down.
But yeah, in corporate America,it seems as though the thought
is the faster the more, the morethe faster, the better.
And uh I don't believe in that.
I think we've long sincesurpassed the point of
(16:44):
diminishing returns in a lot ofcorporate teams.
Scott Allen (16:48):
In your training in the SEALs or even in the
military in general, I'm I'minterested in this kind of
notion of uh slowing down.
You know, in that case, it'sit's a lot's coming at you, and
it's it's life or death much ofthe time.
But you'd said something, and Iwould just want to make sure it
was accurate.
(17:08):
Like so in in those moments,slowing down can actually save
lives, save your life.
Talk a little bit about that.
Is there is there actual onthat?
Jon Macaskill (17:17):
Yeah, we have a saying, and it mostly applies to
shooting or moving through abuilding or some type of
structure, but it can apply to alot more.
But we have a saying in theSEAL teams slow is smooth,
smooth is fast.
And I know it if you reallyboil it down, it doesn't make a
whole lot of sense.
But it's just like if you'removing too fast, again, whether
(17:43):
that's on the battlefield or ina corporate team, yeah, you're
bound to make mistakes, you'rebound to miss opportunities,
you're bound to miss threats.
And and I mean, again, that's athreat on the battlefield or a
threat in the corporate space.
Yep.
Certainly those threats aredifferent, but they're still
threats nonetheless.
You're gonna miss those.
(18:03):
And then you're gonna have todo what you were trying to do
again because it's gonna it'sgonna be a mistake.
There's gonna be a mistakemade, there's gonna be uh you're
gonna take longer to do it.
So it's just like a turnpaper,right?
When we were younger, you know,before ChatGPT existed, when we
actually had to write thesethings and you turn them in and
you're like, oh my gosh, I Iknocked that out.
(18:25):
I I wrote it in, you know, Icrammed in my turn paper last
night and uh and then I turnedit in today.
And then you get it back laterthat week and it's got red all
over it.
But if you had spent a weekwriting it and been slower and
then submitted it at the end ofthe week, maybe it would have
(18:45):
come back with fewer red markson it, right?
So you only have to do it onceor twice instead of three, four,
five times.
Yep.
So the same thing applies ineverything we do, uh, from you
know how we get to work, likedriving.
If you're not paying attention,you end up like the other day,
I was uh I drive my kids toschool every morning.
(19:05):
Yeah.
But the other day, my wife tookthe kids to school and or two
of my three kids to school, andI was driving my eldest daughter
to the dentist.
But in the in my mind, I wasstill driving her to school.
So I started driving her toschool and I was like, what am I
doing?
I'm going the totally wrongway.
Right.
So I wasn't paying attention.
Yep.
And what did I have to do?
(19:26):
Now I ended up being late tothe dentist because I wasn't
paying attention.
But if I'd been more slow andmethodical and been paying
attention, then I would havegotten there on time.
And I know that's a seeminglyminuscule anecdote, but you
magnify that to everything thatwe do every moment in our lives.
Yep.
Yeah, slow is smooth, smooth isfast, makes sense.
Scott Allen (19:45):
Yeah.
Well, and I think whether it'son the battlefield or whether
it's an organizational life,obviously the stakes are very,
very different.
But um the pace of everything,if we allow that pace to control
us, I think that's when to yourpoint, we make mistakes.
We just inattentionalblindness, all just all those
(20:08):
things, we become subject tothose things more easily than I
had a friend who was a rearadmiral.
She carried the football forClinton, actually.
Oh, yeah.
Coast guard.
Yeah.
And um she she had called itsomething of you're you're in
the basement, getting out of thebasement.
And that was the phrasing sheused, but you know, slow down to
(20:30):
get out of the basement becauseright now you're stuck in the
and you know, she has theseincredible stories of you know,
nor'easters off the coast ofMassachusetts and 20-foot waves
for 24 hours type stuff.
Jon Macaskill (20:45):
Yeah, I I bet she has to be slow and smooth uh to
handle some of that stuff.
And I love that that metaphor.
As you said, that I've kind ofI'm kind of imagining these
horror movies, you know, whenthere's some type of monster or
whatever it is in the basement.
And whenever somebody's tryingto run out of the basement, they
always trip and fall and end uppushing the door close and
(21:06):
locking it and never can getout.
But if you had been slower andsmoother, maybe you would have
gotten away from that psychodown there.
Scott Allen (21:15):
Oh well, what else?
What else is on your mind?
What else are you thinkingabout today?
I I love where you started.
Jon Macaskill (21:21):
I mean, it's a topic.
But so yeah, it really dependson what time of the day.
Uh I would normally say whatday you get me is gonna uh drive
what's on my mind, but this dayand age, it's what hour you get
me.
So, you know, I've just droppedmy kids off at school.
I'm thinking about what therest of the day holds, thinking
(21:41):
about uh, you know, work.
Um, so I I am a solopreneurright now.
I I was working as a contractorfor a construction company down
in Dallas, but now I'm doing mymy own thing and uh teaching
mindfulness meditation, doingthe the keynotes, doing the
podcasts.
And what's on my mind is justreally how to get people.
(22:03):
I don't know if you saw myposts last night about the
difference between being niceand being kind.
I did, I did see that.
Yeah, and and that's uh that'ssomething that I'm really trying
to drive home to people isthere's a lot of people who are
nice people, and really I thinkfor the most part, they're being
(22:23):
nice because they're scared.
They're scared to tell somebodyuh that they're doing something
wrong or that they're notperforming well.
And I really want to teachpeople how to be kind instead.
So uh I was telling my daughtercoming back to our kids and how
we raise them and the lessonsthat we teach them.
And this is kind of a grossexample, but it's an it's a it's
(22:44):
an important one.
I said because we've watchedthis, uh we've read this book
together and we've watched thismovie.
It's a short movie on on Appleuh TV.
It's called The The Boy, theMole, the Fox and the Horse.
It's a beautiful, beautifulmovie.
Okay.
It's very short.
It's animated, but it's you cansee that it's hand-drawn the
(23:06):
whole time.
And uh there's one scene theboy can talk to these different
animals.
And there's one scene the moleasks the boy what he wants to be
when he grows up, and the boysays, kind.
He doesn't say what he wants tobe as far as profession, he
just says, I want to be kind.
And that's got this whole kindversus nice thing stirring in
(23:28):
the head.
Yeah.
And so I was telling mydaughter, I said, Hey, you do
you know what the differencebetween nice and kind is?
And she said, they're the samething.
I said, They're kind of, but ifI was sitting here, here's what
gets a little bit gross.
I said, if I was sitting hereand I had a booger hanging out
of my nose, if you're beingnice, you would just let it hang
(23:48):
out of my nose because youwouldn't want to embarrass me in
the moment.
But then I would go, I wouldwalk around and see other
people, and I've got this boogerhanging out of my nose.
You know, I'm done, I'm I don'twant to say dumbing it down
because my eight-year-old's waysmarter than I am.
But I totally get it.
On her level, yeah, I'm on herlevel.
And uh, and then I say,somebody who was being kind
would be like, hey, dad or Jon,you've got something hanging out
(24:11):
of your nose.
And that would spare me theembarrassment for the rest of
the day.
Sure, I would feel a little bitembarrassed for that three
seconds that you told me, butthen I wouldn't be embarrassed
the rest of the day.
Um, and that is the difference.
And she said, Oh, and I couldsee the light bulb go off in her
mind.
And coming back to where wereally started this
conversation, I think we needmore kind people in the world
(24:33):
than we do nice people.
Um, I think nice is coming froma place of fear, uh, place of
weakness, uh, place ofself-preservation.
Whereas kindness is coming froma place of authenticity, a
place of courage, and a desireto uh better not only the person
(24:54):
that you're speaking with or orbeing kind to, but to better
the world.
So that's uh that's been on mymind as well.
Scott Allen (25:01):
Yeah.
Well, and and I think I thinkthere's a at times we create
these false dichotomies in ourheads, right?
That that kindness is weaknessor kindness is soft, right?
As as LinkedIn would say, it'sit's strategic, not soft.
Jon Macaskill (25:21):
Yeah.
Scott Allen (25:22):
I forget who it was.
There was a that's who but youknow, yeah.
Jon Macaskill (25:26):
It was a gangster movie in the day.
I think it was something to theeffect of uh, you know, don't
don't mistake my kindness forweakness.
Yep.
And I've used that line uh whenI was in charge of a of a unit
overseas.
Um you know, I was I was kindto to some guys, and then they
started running all over me.
I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa,whoa, whoa.
(25:46):
Don't mistake my kindness forweakness.
And I ended up having to hammerthem.
I won't go into details aboutwhat they did, but I I have to
hammer them.
But immediately after that,they saw that you could be kind
and yep um hold peopleaccountable at the same time.
There's not there's not adifference there.
Scott Allen (26:07):
Yeah, there's there's a there's a both and,
right?
I mean, it does not mean that Ithat I need to avoid conflict.
It does not mean that I am notgoing to hold others
accountable.
Exactly.
Um, I think that's and again,sometimes we kind of have these
false dichotomies, and I lovethose leaders I come across that
(26:28):
can live in that both andworld, yeah.
Polarities at times and seekind of the tensions that we're
navigating, because it doesn'thave to be that.
But I love the fact that youbrought the example down to an
exam, you know, a situation yourdaughter would recognize
immediately.
Jon Macaskill (26:46):
It's a skill.
It's a skill.
Yeah, right.
It's absolutely and you know, II when I posted this on
LinkedIn yesterday, somebodysaid, you know, why is this on
LinkedIn?
This has nothing to do withbusiness or professionalism.
I said, it absolutely does.
Wow.
Because if you're a leaderwithin a team, and I say within
a team, not of a team, yeah.
(27:07):
I say that intentionally,because I do believe the leader
is part of the team and shouldbe doing everything that he asks
he or she asks his team to do.
They are going to have to bekind and tell people, hey buddy,
you missed the mark on this.
Yeah.
(27:27):
And that's going to help themto improve.
Whereas being nice is when Isay, Hey bud, good job, good
job.
And then years down the road,that person finds out that they
were not, in fact, doing a goodjob.
Yep.
And that's when they get fired.
Yep.
When if they if the leader hadbeen kind, that person could
have been mentored and improvedand you know gone to have a very
(27:50):
successful career instead ofthe short term being nice.
So being nice feels good in themoment.
Being kind is uh longerlasting.
Scott Allen (28:00):
Well, okay, so I grew up in Minnesota, and
there's this there's this thingcalled Minnesota nice.
It's a cultural, here's here'show Wikipedia, it's like
literally a Wikipedia page, Jon.
Wow, um, it's a culturalstereotype applied to the
behavior of people from the U.S.
(28:21):
state of Minnesota.
Implying residents are usuallycourteous, reserved, and
mild-mannered compared to peoplefrom other states.
It it uh implies politefriendliness, an aversion to
open confrontation, a tendencytoward understatement, a
disinclination to make a directfuss or standout, apparent
(28:41):
emotional restraint, andself-deprecation.
Jon Macaskill (28:46):
So must have something to do with uh
proximity to Canada.
Exactly.
Scott Allen (28:53):
Oh, I'm sorry, I'm sorry.
Jon Macaskill (29:00):
And and for your Canadian audience, I love my
Canadian brothers and sisters,just to be clear.
Scott Allen (29:05):
100%, 100%.
But it's hilarious because mydaughter, she's learning to
drive.
So, Jon, we've been we've beendriving around our neighborhood,
and and my daughter keepssaying, sorry, sorry, please
stop saying you're sorry.
You're learning, you're doingawesome.
You are killing it right now.
Don't say you're sorry, justmove a little over to the left,
(29:25):
please.
Jon Macaskill (29:29):
That's great.
Oh, I have that to look forwardto.
Scott Allen (29:33):
That's uh it's a simulator for them to learn to
drive, and it's a simulator foryou to practice emotional
intelligence, right?
Jon Macaskill (29:40):
Oh my gosh.
Scott Allen (29:41):
Just remember you're both learning.
Jon Macaskill (29:45):
Yeah, I'll have to meditate very deeply before I
go into the car with my kids.
Although by then, who knows?
Maybe we'll have allself-driving cars.
We'll see.
Scott Allen (29:55):
Yesterday we were, we were, we were we were going
on our first big street.
So we waited till there are nocars, and I said, Okay, so go
ahead and and and move out intothe street.
And she drove just straightahead.
So literally at this point,Jon, the car is straddling one,
two lanes, right?
Jon Macaskill (30:13):
Oh wow.
Scott Allen (30:14):
So I just looked at her calmly and I was like,
okay, let's go in reverse.
Jon Macaskill (30:17):
Go back to the stop sign.
Scott Allen (30:19):
Now turn the wheel hard and let's take a ride.
Jon Macaskill (30:26):
Oh, that's rich, man.
Scott Allen (30:27):
Oh, I was winning.
Jon Macaskill (30:29):
Yeah.
unknown (30:30):
Right.
Scott Allen (30:31):
Oh.
Well, I think it's a really,really interesting conversation
and interesting distinction,right?
And and just even helpingpeople understand because again,
the the woman on the plane,where I could have, I could have
kind of experienced that asconfrontational or agitating,
but I I kind of and I thinkmindfulness can do this as well.
(30:54):
I think as I'm observingwhatever's coming up, I think
there's a really niceopportunity.
It it can spark curiosity ifyou're open.
Jon Macaskill (31:04):
Oh, right.
And curiosity is one of thegreatest things for that
compassion and empathy isunderstanding where somebody's
coming from.
Scott Allen (31:11):
Yep.
Jon Macaskill (31:12):
Um, and I think you handle that spectacularly.
Uh you definitely could havetaken offense to that.
I mean, whether you're aRepublican or not.
Scott Allen (31:20):
Yeah, it's just I was like, wow.
Jon Macaskill (31:23):
It's like uh, so I drive a big truck and uh and
I'm military and I practicemeditation.
So when I tell people Ipractice meditation, they're
like, oh, you're a liberal,you're a Democrat.
Not exactly.
And And uh when I drive mytruck and I'm a veteran and I
have my weapons, they say, Oh,you're a Republican.
(31:46):
Not exactly.
Really, I I vote, I never votedown the line on anything.
I vote uh on an issue and howsomebody stands on particular
issues.
Um and I I like to think ofmyself as middle of the road.
And I know people will accuseme all the time.
They're like, oh, if you'remiddle of the road, you're not
picking a side that's weak.
(32:07):
Yep.
Well, uh, I would rather notpick a side and join the two
sides than pick a side anddivide us.
So I have a different opinionof what middle of the road.
But it is always funny to seethe natural assumption hey, you
drop a big truck, you must be aRepublican.
Oh, you meditate, you must be aDemocrat.
(32:28):
And yeah, you know, here I am.
I'm wearing a military hat,camouflage, but then I have the
meditating special operatorbehind me.
So I guess I'm an interestingdichotomy in it of myself.
Scott Allen (32:39):
You are a complex character.
I love it.
I love it.
But I think again, I mean, it'sit's false dichotomies.
Pick a side.
I mean, false, just absolutelyfalse in this world.
I mean, it's um I don't thinkit has to be that way.
And so I love the fact that youare grounded enough in your own
(33:02):
kind of being that you can say,no, this is actually who I am.
This is where I where I stand,and this is why.
If you disagree, that's okay.
I'd like to learn why.
I mean, that's interesting.
Um, but it it's just, you know,again, that tribalism, I think,
also then well, regardless ofyour political affiliation, it's
(33:25):
toxic on both sides.
It can be toxic on both sides.
For sure.
And I think that again is partof that division.
It's just a different area ofthat corporation called
divisiveness, or you know, uh,it's it's a it's it is a
corporation, right?
I mean, multi-making billions,yeah, billions and billions and
(33:46):
billions, right?
Jon Macaskill (33:47):
Easily.
Scott Allen (33:49):
Well, okay, so as we begin to wind down our time
together, I I think I alwaysask, you know, what guests have
been listening to, reading,streaming.
You mentioned one book and anduh and a uh uh show on Apple
that I will put a link to forsure.
Um but what else has caughtyour attention recently?
What what might listeners beinterested in?
Jon Macaskill (34:12):
Yeah, I'm I'm really getting I'm a mental
health advocate.
Um, and I like to call itmental maintenance or mental
fitness.
Yes.
Um just so it has less of thatstigma, because as soon as you
say mental health, a lot ofpeople think mental sickness.
Yep.
Um, but just like a car, weneed to maintain our bodies, we
need to maintain our our brains.
(34:33):
Yep.
And um yeah.
And so I'm I'm tinkeringconstantly with different mental
health modalities.
Uh, you know, meditation is abig one to me, clearly.
Uh I like journaling.
And uh I think these are somethings that we could all benefit
(34:54):
from doing more of.
Uh right now, you know, one onething that has gotten uh very
interesting to me is longevity.
Yes.
And and I'm reading PeterArtia's book, Outlive.
And uh it's really fascinatingabout, you know, we've increased
lifespan, but we haven'tincreased health span as much as
(35:14):
we should.
Yep.
And his book is all about howto increase both.
Uh really fascinating.
He talks about this, uh, it'sit's a it's a myth or legend of
one one guy who prayed to thegods and asked for eternal life,
but he did not ask for eternalyouth.
So he got the eternal life, buthis body aged just like
(35:35):
everybody else's.
So after the time that he wouldhave died, it continued aging
and decaying.
And that's what it seems like alot of us are doing is we're
we've extended our lives, likeyou talked about before.
You know, the the lifespan usedto be 67 or something, and now
we're living into our 90ssometimes or even longer.
But is our health spanequivalent?
(35:56):
I mean, do you really want tolive to 90 if you only have 67
years of of valuable life?
I don't know.
No, so yeah, interesting read.
So no outlive by Peter Atia.
Scott Allen (36:07):
Uh I love it.
There's a guy, there's a guy atHarvard, his name is David
Sinclair.
And so I'm just gonna mentionthis for listeners also.
But Sinclair is also alongevity scholar and has a lab
at Harvard.
He's a geneticist.
And he wrote a book calledLifespan.
And he kind of nicely makesthat distinction as well.
(36:30):
But there's a podcast also bySinclair called Lifespan.
And I think it's page seven ofthe book.
He says something to the effectof the longevity research is
where cancer was in the 60s, butby all accounts, this will be
easier than cancer.
So I mean, he, you know,they're actively working to cure
(36:50):
death, and you get into that'sa whole nother hour for us of
conversation about you know,every institution that makes up
being a human being, you know,marriage till death to your
part.
Well, I love you, but you know,that's a long time, honey.
Um, you know, everythingchanges, right?
(37:11):
So it's just so interesting.
But I love that.
Peter Atia, okay.
And um, and then also forlisteners, if you're interested
in that topic and the nuances ofit, because you can get into
religious, ethical, oh yeah, youcan get into so many
fascinating nooks and crannies.
But the book is lifespan, andum billions and billions of
dollars are being invested inthat space right now, that
(37:34):
longevity space.
Fascinating stuff.
Wow.
Jon, we'll do it again, sir.
I really, really appreciateyour time today.
Thanks for watching.
Jon Macaskill (37:41):
Fascinating conversation.
Thanks, Scott.
Scott Allen (37:43):
Yes, and for listeners, I'm gonna put a bunch
of links so that you can get intouch with Jon.
You can follow him on LinkedIn.
He is a thought leader in thatspace and outside of that space.
And so uh gonna put a bunch oflinks in the show notes so
you'll have them there.
And until next time, be well,sir.
Jon Macaskill (38:01):
And you too, brother.
Take care.
Scott Allen (38:04):
Of course, I need to thank Jon for his service and
for just a wonderfulconversation.
So fun to connect, not a lot ofan agenda there, but just an
opportunity for the two of us tobuild a little bit of a
relationship, explore a coupletopics, and I have a lot of
(38:27):
links in the show notes for youto learn more about Jon.
He is an incredible speaker,and you know what?
I think it would be wise if youhave an event to tap him to
participate.
Thank you so much, Jon, andthanks to all of you for
listening.
Have a great day, everyone.
Be well.
Bye bye.
Okay, everybody, welcome to Practical Wisdom for
Leaders.
Thank you so much for checkingin wherever you are in the
world.
Today, Jon Macaskill, and he isa retired U.S.
Navy SEAL commander, LinkedIntop voice in masculinity and
traditionalism, a leadershipconsultant and mindfulness
teacher, co-host of the MenTalking Mindfulness Podcast, and
(02:00):
he is a keynote speaker ongrit, compassion, resilience.
Jon, thank you.
What's not in your bio that Ijust quickly kind of covered
that people should know aboutyou, sir?
Thank you so much for beinghere.
Jon Macaskill (02:13):
Uh well, Scott, thanks for having me.
Uh, I know we've known oneanother for a while now, and
this is the first time thatwe've connected uh virtually
like this, and uh hopefully downthe road we'll connect in real
life.
Yes.
But yeah, I think the thebiggest thing that is not in the
bio there, um, it is in mytagline on LinkedIn is dad
first.
Uh, you know, married uh threeyoung kiddos.
(02:34):
So I'm 48, but I've got asix-year-old, or sorry, an
eight-year-old, a six-year-old,and a four-year-old.
Okay.
So I got I got started late,but uh, I like to say that I'm
vintage and have a lot of wisdomto share with them.
So uh yeah, that's that's thepiece that was missing.
Scott Allen (02:50):
Oh, that's awesome.
We have three as well.
We have twin girls that are 15and a son 17.
So we're we're a little furtherdown the road, but so much fun,
isn't it?
I mean, and talk about amirror, right?
Of where you need to learn,develop, and grow.
Jon Macaskill (03:06):
Big time.
Oh my gosh, my kids call me outall the time on my on my my BS.
Scott Allen (03:15):
Yes, they're fantastic.
Yes, yes.
Well, no one, you know, beforewe had kids, I I was a little
bit older, I think, when I'm 53,so a little bit older when we
had kids too.
But I it was all theseconversations of oh, diapers,
and we used to have a life, andwe know all this kind of like
commiserating, but it has beenso much fun.
(03:38):
And there's things that arelike these wonderful surprises.
Like, for instance, no one eversaid to me, like, hey, you are
gonna craft and shape yourchildren's sense of humor, for
instance, right?
And there's this moment wherewe're watching elf probably
around your kid's age, andthey're laughing at all the
right, the sarcasm, the irony,they're laughing at everything.
(04:00):
And I looked at my wife and Ijust gave her this kind of like,
okay, we're winning type.
And and so we've been goingthrough all of the comedies of
the 80s and the 90s, andbeautiful night, what we
watched.
We watched a documentary on JonCandy, and then we watched
Space Balls.
Jon Macaskill (04:17):
I saw that.
Oh my gosh, Space Balls, what aclassic! Yeah, we uh we just
brought them into ET.
And uh, I know uh it was funny.
I was like, there's only onebad word in it, and and then I
realized watching it, there'sseveral bad words in it, they're
not terrible, but I was like,uh well, I watched this when I
was seven years old, so I didn'tturn out too bad.
Scott Allen (04:39):
One loved it.
Yeah, great film, and uh PGmeant something different then.
Yeah, um, if you watch theoriginal airplane, be careful.
Jon Macaskill (04:51):
Oh my goodness, yeah.
Yeah, there's a lot in thatone.
Oh, I forgot OJ is a naked gun.
I was trying, yeah, yeah.
Scott Allen (05:05):
Oh well, you know, I I'm so excited for our
conversation today, andobviously you bring so much to
the table, so much experience,wisdom, and uh especially around
this topic of leadership.
But I think where I want tostart the conversation is what
have you been thinking aboutrecently?
(05:25):
I mean, as you kind of navigateum your work, what's kind of
top of mind for you?
What's catching your attentionthese days?
Jon Macaskill (05:34):
Yeah.
Um, it's probably what'scatching most people's
attention.
Uh, and and I don't want to gotoo far down this rabbit hole,
but it's the politicalenvironment that we're in right
now.
And uh, you know, I don't wantto speak negatively or
positively.
I want to be neutral becausethat's where I think most of
(05:54):
America is.
Yeah.
But social media and news mediafocus on the the polar, uh, the
ends of the polar spectrums andum kind of sow this
divisiveness.
And I I wish that our leaderson either side of the aisle uh
would step up and and try tobring us together as a country
(06:20):
rather than dividing us.
I mean, the the old saying, uh,you know, united we, what is it
to together we oh man, I'm I'mmissing it.
Scott Allen (06:31):
I mean, divided, we fall.
Jon Macaskill (06:33):
Yeah, that's that's yeah, together we stand,
divided, we fall.
There you go.
See, I need I need more coffee,but yes, that's that's so true.
Um and I think that's where youknow leadership in politics,
leadership in organizations,leadership within the military.
Yes, there are times we we'regoing to have to go uh you know
(06:54):
one way or the other that mayupset one side or the other.
But there's also times when weneed to see, okay, what can
bring us together as anorganization, what can develop
our culture so that we can workum towards a common goal.
And uh that's that's what'sbeen on my mind uh as of late.
(07:15):
Um yeah, so I think that'sprobably what's on a lot of
people's minds.
Scott Allen (07:20):
Yeah, you know, I let's let's let's stay on this
for a little bit because I thinkit's really, really important.
I was saying to a friend theother day, I mean, it's it's a
multi, maybe even trillion.
I don't know.
Someone smarter than me withnumbers would know, but it's a
multi-billion dollar industry tokeep us divided, to keep us
(07:41):
agitated, to keep us anxious, tokeep us clicking, to keep us uh
scared, anxious, nervous.
And it's really, reallyfascinating.
I imagine like thiscorporation, just call it
division.
And the if it was on the Dow, Imean, it's billions and
billions of dollars, right?
I mean, regardless of where youare, this this kind of news
(08:02):
entertainment, however we wantto define that, whether it's
rush or rachel, um it it it init it keeps us it keeps us
inflamed.
And so, you know, I sat down onthe airplane the other day, and
this woman looked at me.
I she hadn't even sat down yet.
She's like, You Republican?
Oh my goodness.
I looked at her and I said,that had that escalated quickly.
(08:25):
She kind of laughed.
But you know, it wasinteresting because um I said,
we're probably not thatdissimilar, right?
And and she said, Well, what doyou mean?
And I said, Well, okay, uh,right to bear arms, you believe
in that?
She's like, Yeah, yeah, yeah,sure.
And I'm like, military-gradeweapons on the streets, just
kind of you know, easy to get,no, right.
(08:47):
And she's like, Yeah, no,that's not good.
And okay, we're we're we'reclose.
Um, have immigrants built thiscountry, yeah, in many ways,
yeah, for sure.
Should we let them across theborder just kind of you know,
willy-nilly, and there's noprocess?
No, no, I I agree with you, andprobably US presidents for the
last 50 years haven't been ableto kind of figure out that
(09:07):
puzzle and and fix it.
And so we had this reallywonderful conversation.
Nice, but you know, I think itis, it's so interesting.
The the the divisiveness is bigbusiness, it's making trillions
trillions.
Jon Macaskill (09:22):
Yeah, I would I would I would bet that it is
making trillions.
Um you know, and again, I don'twant to go too far down this
path, but yes, that's and thatthat's where I think leadership
needs to step in, is to say, youknow what?
Um these 24-hour news networks,social media, um, they are
(09:43):
dividing the country.
This is the truth, and speakthe truth.
Um, or get a network thatspeaks the truth rather than
dividing us and show that, yes,exactly.
Like you just said, we have waymore in common uh than we have
different, at least most of us.
And uh I think that's what weneed to celebrate.
Now, granted, that that doesn'tsell.
(10:04):
It doesn't sell.
Scott Allen (10:05):
Well, that's the thing.
Like you and I should in thenext 25 minutes figure out how
we monetize the middle, like youknow, like Republicans and
Democrats, they theycollaborated today, you know.
Like how do we monetize that?
Because we would make billionsif we could monetize that.
I mean, it's it is, it's sointeresting.
(10:27):
And us as humans and our ownkind of biology that that is
clicking, that is, that is dupedisn't the word I want to use,
but we're seduced very quicklyinto uh into clicking.
And yeah, it's it gone are thedays of kind of like what you
(10:48):
just said, the Walter Cronkite,like, okay, that's the way it
is.
And you know, generallyspeaking, that's kind of where
we are as a country.
And everyone went to bed, andthere was a similar, at least,
mindset about where we were, andand now we just have these
different realities, right?
Jon Macaskill (11:04):
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, if you watch thedifferent networks, it's as
we're living in a differentworld.
Yeah.
Scott Allen (11:09):
So well, and and so how do you think about that?
I mean, when you uh and and soyour work in mindfulness is so
incredible on on a number ofdifferent levels, but it's
almost like collectivemindfulness.
How do we how do wecollectively be more mindful?
I don't know.
I just how how do you see theintersection of mindfulness and
(11:32):
some of what we've justdiscussed?
Jon Macaskill (11:34):
Yeah.
Well, I think it comes down touh a lot of what mindfulness is,
is just awareness withoutjudgment.
And that latter part is the isthe key.
Is not judging what you'refeeling physically, not judging
what you're feeling emotionally,just being in it.
And that I think helps tofoster several things.
(11:58):
One, it uh helps to fosteremotional regulation so that you
can have a conversation withoutgetting really upset.
Yeah, uh, you know, aconversation with somebody with
differing viewpoints.
It also helps to foster empathyand compassion.
So not only does it regulateyour emotions when you're having
a conversation, but it alsohelps you to potentially see the
(12:22):
other person's viewpoint.
Understand, you may notunderstand their viewpoint, but
you can understand, okay, thisis where they're coming from,
this is their background, thisis how they were raised, this is
where they were raised, andthis is why they see things
differently than I do.
And I think that's wheremindfulness can come into that
collective mindfulness.
I like that term.
(12:42):
Yeah, you know, as as a as acountry, like you mentioned at
the beginning, uh, one of thethings that I speak about is
compassion.
Um, and that is one thing thatwe could foster through through
mindfulness, through havingmindful conversations, through
having mindful uh meetingstogether.
(13:03):
Um uh representative Tim Ryan,I think it was a representative,
um, he may have been a senator.
Um I'm forgetting now.
No, Wisconsin.
Yeah, yep, yep, yep.
Yeah, so uh he was uh at um hewas developing the mindful
nation within Congress.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
Really?
Jon Macaskill (13:24):
Since left.
But yeah, he really tried tobring in mindfulness into
Congress um with marginalsuccess, but we need more heart
in Congress than money.
And uh that's unfortunately notthe case right now.
Scott Allen (13:41):
Yeah, you know, it it's um I had a I had a
professor, Barbara Kellerman,she was at the Harvard Kennedy
School for years, and she's justa wizard.
And she said, you know, um, insome ways our country is running
some old software, and some ofthat old software, uh, it has
some bugs.
And you know, even things like,you know, when it was justice
(14:04):
for life, well, you know, thatwas the the the person died.
In that case, the man died atabout 67.
So life wasn't all thatunreasonable, but you get to
like, you know, 90, and youknow, it it's different, or
right to bear arms, sure, butthat probably the founders
couldn't conceive of what thatcould mean someday.
(14:24):
I mean, right, and and so it'sjust an interesting kind of um
kind of observation on some ofwhat we're seeing now, or or the
system kind of elevates theextremes in the primary process,
you know?
(14:44):
Oh and that's that's kind ofsomething that's been kind of
discovered and and utilized andabused, and um so it's so
interesting, but I I love thefact I I hadn't heard that that
Ryan had really proposedmindfulness at that level.
Yeah, it's like we're so busydoing, going, producing,
(15:05):
reacting that it's so hard toslow down, even as I work with
corporate executives, it's sohard to slow down and be present
and aware.
We're just ping ping ping.
Jon Macaskill (15:16):
I think that's that's one of the hardest places
it is to be to be present andslow down, because you know, in
the in the military, it actuallyit actually pays to be present
and slow down and assess.
And really it pays everywhereto do that.
But the common misconception isthat as you do more and more
(15:38):
and more, and as you do moreefficiently, um that you're
going to increase the bottomline.
And to some point, to someextent, that's true.
But eventually you're gonnaburn your people out, you're
gonna burn yourself out.
And if you do stop and pauseand use the term reactive,
(16:00):
that's absolutely when Imeditate, one of my mantras, as
I breathe in, I say morepatient, and as I breathe out, I
say less reactive.
And I mean that that that rightthere, if you can respond
versus react, you know, whetherit's with my kids in the morning
putting their shoes on, yeah,or not in their case, not
(16:21):
putting their shoes on, uh, allthe way to uh the politics that
we were just talking about, wecould all afford to slow down.
But yeah, in corporate America,it seems as though the thought
is the faster the more, the morethe faster, the better.
And uh I don't believe in that.
I think we've long sincesurpassed the point of
(16:44):
diminishing returns in a lot ofcorporate teams.
Scott Allen (16:48):
In your training in the SEALs or even in the
military in general, I'm I'minterested in this kind of
notion of uh slowing down.
You know, in that case, it'sit's a lot's coming at you, and
it's it's life or death much ofthe time.
But you'd said something, and Iwould just want to make sure it
was accurate.
(17:08):
Like so in in those moments,slowing down can actually save
lives, save your life.
Talk a little bit about that.
Is there is there actual onthat?
Jon Macaskill (17:17):
Yeah, we have a saying, and it mostly applies to
shooting or moving through abuilding or some type of
structure, but it can apply to alot more.
But we have a saying in theSEAL teams slow is smooth,
smooth is fast.
And I know it if you reallyboil it down, it doesn't make a
whole lot of sense.
But it's just like if you'removing too fast, again, whether
(17:43):
that's on the battlefield or ina corporate team, yeah, you're
bound to make mistakes, you'rebound to miss opportunities,
you're bound to miss threats.
And and I mean, again, that's athreat on the battlefield or a
threat in the corporate space.
Yep.
Certainly those threats aredifferent, but they're still
threats nonetheless.
You're gonna miss those.
(18:03):
And then you're gonna have todo what you were trying to do
again because it's gonna it'sgonna be a mistake.
There's gonna be a mistakemade, there's gonna be uh you're
gonna take longer to do it.
So it's just like a turnpaper,right?
When we were younger, you know,before ChatGPT existed, when we
actually had to write thesethings and you turn them in and
you're like, oh my gosh, I Iknocked that out.
(18:25):
I I wrote it in, you know, Icrammed in my turn paper last
night and uh and then I turnedit in today.
And then you get it back laterthat week and it's got red all
over it.
But if you had spent a weekwriting it and been slower and
then submitted it at the end ofthe week, maybe it would have
(18:45):
come back with fewer red markson it, right?
So you only have to do it onceor twice instead of three, four,
five times.
Yep.
So the same thing applies ineverything we do, uh, from you
know how we get to work, likedriving.
If you're not paying attention,you end up like the other day,
I was uh I drive my kids toschool every morning.
(19:05):
Yeah.
But the other day, my wife tookthe kids to school and or two
of my three kids to school, andI was driving my eldest daughter
to the dentist.
But in the in my mind, I wasstill driving her to school.
So I started driving her toschool and I was like, what am I
doing?
I'm going the totally wrongway.
Right.
So I wasn't paying attention.
Yep.
And what did I have to do?
(19:26):
Now I ended up being late tothe dentist because I wasn't
paying attention.
But if I'd been more slow andmethodical and been paying
attention, then I would havegotten there on time.
And I know that's a seeminglyminuscule anecdote, but you
magnify that to everything thatwe do every moment in our lives.
Yep.
Yeah, slow is smooth, smooth isfast, makes sense.
Scott Allen (19:45):
Yeah.
Well, and I think whether it'son the battlefield or whether
it's an organizational life,obviously the stakes are very,
very different.
But um the pace of everything,if we allow that pace to control
us, I think that's when to yourpoint, we make mistakes.
We just inattentionalblindness, all just all those
(20:08):
things, we become subject tothose things more easily than I
had a friend who was a rearadmiral.
She carried the football forClinton, actually.
Oh, yeah.
Coast guard.
Yeah.
And um she she had called itsomething of you're you're in
the basement, getting out of thebasement.
And that was the phrasing sheused, but you know, slow down to
(20:30):
get out of the basement becauseright now you're stuck in the
and you know, she has theseincredible stories of you know,
nor'easters off the coast ofMassachusetts and 20-foot waves
for 24 hours type stuff.
Jon Macaskill (20:45):
Yeah, I I bet she has to be slow and smooth uh to
handle some of that stuff.
And I love that that metaphor.
As you said, that I've kind ofI'm kind of imagining these
horror movies, you know, whenthere's some type of monster or
whatever it is in the basement.
And whenever somebody's tryingto run out of the basement, they
always trip and fall and end uppushing the door close and
(21:06):
locking it and never can getout.
But if you had been slower andsmoother, maybe you would have
gotten away from that psychodown there.
Scott Allen (21:15):
Oh well, what else?
What else is on your mind?
What else are you thinkingabout today?
I I love where you started.
Jon Macaskill (21:21):
I mean, it's a topic.
But so yeah, it really dependson what time of the day.
Uh I would normally say whatday you get me is gonna uh drive
what's on my mind, but this dayand age, it's what hour you get
me.
So, you know, I've just droppedmy kids off at school.
I'm thinking about what therest of the day holds, thinking
(21:41):
about uh, you know, work.
Um, so I I am a solopreneurright now.
I I was working as a contractorfor a construction company down
in Dallas, but now I'm doing mymy own thing and uh teaching
mindfulness meditation, doingthe the keynotes, doing the
podcasts.
And what's on my mind is justreally how to get people.
(22:03):
I don't know if you saw myposts last night about the
difference between being niceand being kind.
I did, I did see that.
Yeah, and and that's uh that'ssomething that I'm really trying
to drive home to people isthere's a lot of people who are
nice people, and really I thinkfor the most part, they're being
(22:23):
nice because they're scared.
They're scared to tell somebodyuh that they're doing something
wrong or that they're notperforming well.
And I really want to teachpeople how to be kind instead.
So uh I was telling my daughtercoming back to our kids and how
we raise them and the lessonsthat we teach them.
And this is kind of a grossexample, but it's an it's a it's
(22:44):
an important one.
I said because we've watchedthis, uh we've read this book
together and we've watched thismovie.
It's a short movie on on Appleuh TV.
It's called The The Boy, theMole, the Fox and the Horse.
It's a beautiful, beautifulmovie.
Okay.
It's very short.
It's animated, but it's you cansee that it's hand-drawn the
(23:06):
whole time.
And uh there's one scene theboy can talk to these different
animals.
And there's one scene the moleasks the boy what he wants to be
when he grows up, and the boysays, kind.
He doesn't say what he wants tobe as far as profession, he
just says, I want to be kind.
And that's got this whole kindversus nice thing stirring in
(23:28):
the head.
Yeah.
And so I was telling mydaughter, I said, Hey, you do
you know what the differencebetween nice and kind is?
And she said, they're the samething.
I said, They're kind of, but ifI was sitting here, here's what
gets a little bit gross.
I said, if I was sitting hereand I had a booger hanging out
of my nose, if you're beingnice, you would just let it hang
(23:48):
out of my nose because youwouldn't want to embarrass me in
the moment.
But then I would go, I wouldwalk around and see other
people, and I've got this boogerhanging out of my nose.
You know, I'm done, I'm I don'twant to say dumbing it down
because my eight-year-old's waysmarter than I am.
But I totally get it.
On her level, yeah, I'm on herlevel.
And uh, and then I say,somebody who was being kind
would be like, hey, dad or Jon,you've got something hanging out
(24:11):
of your nose.
And that would spare me theembarrassment for the rest of
the day.
Sure, I would feel a little bitembarrassed for that three
seconds that you told me, butthen I wouldn't be embarrassed
the rest of the day.
Um, and that is the difference.
And she said, Oh, and I couldsee the light bulb go off in her
mind.
And coming back to where wereally started this
conversation, I think we needmore kind people in the world
(24:33):
than we do nice people.
Um, I think nice is coming froma place of fear, uh, place of
weakness, uh, place ofself-preservation.
Whereas kindness is coming froma place of authenticity, a
place of courage, and a desireto uh better not only the person
(24:54):
that you're speaking with or orbeing kind to, but to better
the world.
So that's uh that's been on mymind as well.
Scott Allen (25:01):
Yeah.
Well, and and I think I thinkthere's a at times we create
these false dichotomies in ourheads, right?
That that kindness is weaknessor kindness is soft, right?
As as LinkedIn would say, it'sit's strategic, not soft.
Jon Macaskill (25:21):
Yeah.
Scott Allen (25:22):
I forget who it was.
There was a that's who but youknow, yeah.
Jon Macaskill (25:26):
It was a gangster movie in the day.
I think it was something to theeffect of uh, you know, don't
don't mistake my kindness forweakness.
Yep.
And I've used that line uh whenI was in charge of a of a unit
overseas.
Um you know, I was I was kindto to some guys, and then they
started running all over me.
I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa,whoa, whoa.
(25:46):
Don't mistake my kindness forweakness.
And I ended up having to hammerthem.
I won't go into details aboutwhat they did, but I I have to
hammer them.
But immediately after that,they saw that you could be kind
and yep um hold peopleaccountable at the same time.
There's not there's not adifference there.
Scott Allen (26:07):
Yeah, there's there's a there's a both and,
right?
I mean, it does not mean that Ithat I need to avoid conflict.
It does not mean that I am notgoing to hold others
accountable.
Exactly.
Um, I think that's and again,sometimes we kind of have these
false dichotomies, and I lovethose leaders I come across that
(26:28):
can live in that both andworld, yeah.
Polarities at times and seekind of the tensions that we're
navigating, because it doesn'thave to be that.
But I love the fact that youbrought the example down to an
exam, you know, a situation yourdaughter would recognize
immediately.
Jon Macaskill (26:46):
It's a skill.
It's a skill.
Yeah, right.
It's absolutely and you know, II when I posted this on
LinkedIn yesterday, somebodysaid, you know, why is this on
LinkedIn?
This has nothing to do withbusiness or professionalism.
I said, it absolutely does.
Wow.
Because if you're a leaderwithin a team, and I say within
a team, not of a team, yeah.
(27:07):
I say that intentionally,because I do believe the leader
is part of the team and shouldbe doing everything that he asks
he or she asks his team to do.
They are going to have to bekind and tell people, hey buddy,
you missed the mark on this.
Yeah.
(27:27):
And that's going to help themto improve.
Whereas being nice is when Isay, Hey bud, good job, good
job.
And then years down the road,that person finds out that they
were not, in fact, doing a goodjob.
Yep.
And that's when they get fired.
Yep.
When if they if the leader hadbeen kind, that person could
have been mentored and improvedand you know gone to have a very
(27:50):
successful career instead ofthe short term being nice.
So being nice feels good in themoment.
Being kind is uh longerlasting.
Scott Allen (28:00):
Well, okay, so I grew up in Minnesota, and
there's this there's this thingcalled Minnesota nice.
It's a cultural, here's here'show Wikipedia, it's like
literally a Wikipedia page, Jon.
Wow, um, it's a culturalstereotype applied to the
behavior of people from the U.S.
(28:21):
state of Minnesota.
Implying residents are usuallycourteous, reserved, and
mild-mannered compared to peoplefrom other states.
It it uh implies politefriendliness, an aversion to
open confrontation, a tendencytoward understatement, a
disinclination to make a directfuss or standout, apparent
(28:41):
emotional restraint, andself-deprecation.
Jon Macaskill (28:46):
So must have something to do with uh
proximity to Canada.
Exactly.
Scott Allen (28:53):
Oh, I'm sorry, I'm sorry.
Jon Macaskill (29:00):
And and for your Canadian audience, I love my
Canadian brothers and sisters,just to be clear.
Scott Allen (29:05):
100%, 100%.
But it's hilarious because mydaughter, she's learning to
drive.
So, Jon, we've been we've beendriving around our neighborhood,
and and my daughter keepssaying, sorry, sorry, please
stop saying you're sorry.
You're learning, you're doingawesome.
You are killing it right now.
Don't say you're sorry, justmove a little over to the left,
(29:25):
please.
Jon Macaskill (29:29):
That's great.
Oh, I have that to look forwardto.
Scott Allen (29:33):
That's uh it's a simulator for them to learn to
drive, and it's a simulator foryou to practice emotional
intelligence, right?
Jon Macaskill (29:40):
Oh my gosh.
Scott Allen (29:41):
Just remember you're both learning.
Jon Macaskill (29:45):
Yeah, I'll have to meditate very deeply before I
go into the car with my kids.
Although by then, who knows?
Maybe we'll have allself-driving cars.
We'll see.
Scott Allen (29:55):
Yesterday we were, we were, we were we were going
on our first big street.
So we waited till there are nocars, and I said, Okay, so go
ahead and and and move out intothe street.
And she drove just straightahead.
So literally at this point,Jon, the car is straddling one,
two lanes, right?
Jon Macaskill (30:13):
Oh wow.
Scott Allen (30:14):
So I just looked at her calmly and I was like,
okay, let's go in reverse.
Jon Macaskill (30:17):
Go back to the stop sign.
Scott Allen (30:19):
Now turn the wheel hard and let's take a ride.
Jon Macaskill (30:26):
Oh, that's rich, man.
Scott Allen (30:27):
Oh, I was winning.
Jon Macaskill (30:29):
Yeah.
unknown (30:30):
Right.
Scott Allen (30:31):
Oh.
Well, I think it's a really,really interesting conversation
and interesting distinction,right?
And and just even helpingpeople understand because again,
the the woman on the plane,where I could have, I could have
kind of experienced that asconfrontational or agitating,
but I I kind of and I thinkmindfulness can do this as well.
(30:54):
I think as I'm observingwhatever's coming up, I think
there's a really niceopportunity.
It it can spark curiosity ifyou're open.
Jon Macaskill (31:04):
Oh, right.
And curiosity is one of thegreatest things for that
compassion and empathy isunderstanding where somebody's
coming from.
Scott Allen (31:11):
Yep.
Jon Macaskill (31:12):
Um, and I think you handle that spectacularly.
Uh you definitely could havetaken offense to that.
I mean, whether you're aRepublican or not.
Scott Allen (31:20):
Yeah, it's just I was like, wow.
Jon Macaskill (31:23):
It's like uh, so I drive a big truck and uh and
I'm military and I practicemeditation.
So when I tell people Ipractice meditation, they're
like, oh, you're a liberal,you're a Democrat.
Not exactly.
And And uh when I drive mytruck and I'm a veteran and I
have my weapons, they say, Oh,you're a Republican.
(31:46):
Not exactly.
Really, I I vote, I never votedown the line on anything.
I vote uh on an issue and howsomebody stands on particular
issues.
Um and I I like to think ofmyself as middle of the road.
And I know people will accuseme all the time.
They're like, oh, if you'remiddle of the road, you're not
picking a side that's weak.
(32:07):
Yep.
Well, uh, I would rather notpick a side and join the two
sides than pick a side anddivide us.
So I have a different opinionof what middle of the road.
But it is always funny to seethe natural assumption hey, you
drop a big truck, you must be aRepublican.
Oh, you meditate, you must be aDemocrat.
(32:28):
And yeah, you know, here I am.
I'm wearing a military hat,camouflage, but then I have the
meditating special operatorbehind me.
So I guess I'm an interestingdichotomy in it of myself.
Scott Allen (32:39):
You are a complex character.
I love it.
I love it.
But I think again, I mean, it'sit's false dichotomies.
Pick a side.
I mean, false, just absolutelyfalse in this world.
I mean, it's um I don't thinkit has to be that way.
And so I love the fact that youare grounded enough in your own
(33:02):
kind of being that you can say,no, this is actually who I am.
This is where I where I stand,and this is why.
If you disagree, that's okay.
I'd like to learn why.
I mean, that's interesting.
Um, but it it's just, you know,again, that tribalism, I think,
also then well, regardless ofyour political affiliation, it's
(33:25):
toxic on both sides.
It can be toxic on both sides.
For sure.
And I think that again is partof that division.
It's just a different area ofthat corporation called
divisiveness, or you know, uh,it's it's a it's it is a
corporation, right?
I mean, multi-making billions,yeah, billions and billions and
(33:46):
billions, right?
Jon Macaskill (33:47):
Easily.
Scott Allen (33:49):
Well, okay, so as we begin to wind down our time
together, I I think I alwaysask, you know, what guests have
been listening to, reading,streaming.
You mentioned one book and anduh and a uh uh show on Apple
that I will put a link to forsure.
Um but what else has caughtyour attention recently?
What what might listeners beinterested in?
Jon Macaskill (34:12):
Yeah, I'm I'm really getting I'm a mental
health advocate.
Um, and I like to call itmental maintenance or mental
fitness.
Yes.
Um just so it has less of thatstigma, because as soon as you
say mental health, a lot ofpeople think mental sickness.
Yep.
Um, but just like a car, weneed to maintain our bodies, we
need to maintain our our brains.
(34:33):
Yep.
And um yeah.
And so I'm I'm tinkeringconstantly with different mental
health modalities.
Uh, you know, meditation is abig one to me, clearly.
Uh I like journaling.
And uh I think these are somethings that we could all benefit
(34:54):
from doing more of.
Uh right now, you know, one onething that has gotten uh very
interesting to me is longevity.
Yes.
And and I'm reading PeterArtia's book, Outlive.
And uh it's really fascinatingabout, you know, we've increased
lifespan, but we haven'tincreased health span as much as
(35:14):
we should.
Yep.
And his book is all about howto increase both.
Uh really fascinating.
He talks about this, uh, it'sit's a it's a myth or legend of
one one guy who prayed to thegods and asked for eternal life,
but he did not ask for eternalyouth.
So he got the eternal life, buthis body aged just like
(35:35):
everybody else's.
So after the time that he wouldhave died, it continued aging
and decaying.
And that's what it seems like alot of us are doing is we're
we've extended our lives, likeyou talked about before.
You know, the the lifespan usedto be 67 or something, and now
we're living into our 90ssometimes or even longer.
But is our health spanequivalent?
(35:56):
I mean, do you really want tolive to 90 if you only have 67
years of of valuable life?
I don't know.
No, so yeah, interesting read.
So no outlive by Peter Atia.
Scott Allen (36:07):
Uh I love it.
There's a guy, there's a guy atHarvard, his name is David
Sinclair.
And so I'm just gonna mentionthis for listeners also.
But Sinclair is also alongevity scholar and has a lab
at Harvard.
He's a geneticist.
And he wrote a book calledLifespan.
And he kind of nicely makesthat distinction as well.
(36:30):
But there's a podcast also bySinclair called Lifespan.
And I think it's page seven ofthe book.
He says something to the effectof the longevity research is
where cancer was in the 60s, butby all accounts, this will be
easier than cancer.
So I mean, he, you know,they're actively working to cure
(36:50):
death, and you get into that'sa whole nother hour for us of
conversation about you know,every institution that makes up
being a human being, you know,marriage till death to your
part.
Well, I love you, but you know,that's a long time, honey.
Um, you know, everythingchanges, right?
(37:11):
So it's just so interesting.
But I love that.
Peter Atia, okay.
And um, and then also forlisteners, if you're interested
in that topic and the nuances ofit, because you can get into
religious, ethical, oh yeah, youcan get into so many
fascinating nooks and crannies.
But the book is lifespan, andum billions and billions of
dollars are being invested inthat space right now, that
(37:34):
longevity space.
Fascinating stuff.
Wow.
Jon, we'll do it again, sir.
I really, really appreciateyour time today.
Thanks for watching.
Jon Macaskill (37:41):
Fascinating conversation.
Thanks, Scott.
Scott Allen (37:43):
Yes, and for listeners, I'm gonna put a bunch
of links so that you can get intouch with Jon.
You can follow him on LinkedIn.
He is a thought leader in thatspace and outside of that space.
And so uh gonna put a bunch oflinks in the show notes so
you'll have them there.
And until next time, be well,sir.
Jon Macaskill (38:01):
And you too, brother.
Take care.
Scott Allen (38:04):
Of course, I need to thank Jon for his service and
for just a wonderfulconversation.
So fun to connect, not a lot ofan agenda there, but just an
opportunity for the two of us tobuild a little bit of a
relationship, explore a coupletopics, and I have a lot of
(38:27):
links in the show notes for youto learn more about Jon.
He is an incredible speaker,and you know what?
I think it would be wise if youhave an event to tap him to
participate.
Thank you so much, Jon, andthanks to all of you for
listening.
Have a great day, everyone.
Be well.
Bye bye.
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