December 18, 2024 • 30 mins
Jen Hamilton joins us on the Practice Success Podcast to share her six-pillar framework for assessing a firm’s health. She highlights how identifying and addressing weak areas can lead to transformative change and explores the challenges of implementing those changes effectively.
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Episode Transcript
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KC Brothers (00:06):
Welcome to another episode of the Canopy Practice
Success Podcast.
I'm one of your lovely hosts,Kaci Brothers, and I'm here
today with Jen Hamilton.
Hi, Jen.
Hi, Kaci.
Thanks for having me.
Thanks for being had.
Um, give a quick introduction toyourself because you have an
interesting role that Ihonestly.
(00:27):
Haven't heard anybody do before.
Jen Hamilton (00:30):
Well, thank you for that.
It's been a fun ride as, asalways with any career changes.
So I started my career as a CPAwas working for
PricewaterhouseCoopers.
And then when I moved, um, thepractice focus that I had was
not offered in San Diego whereI'm from and where I still am.
And so I went into a very smalllocal firm who then got bought
(00:53):
up by a regional firm.
So I've been in all kinds ofaccounting firms.
Started my career and reallyappreciated being able to
experience all differentenvironments.
Um, but yet there was somethingcalling me to more than just the
finance side.
So I now am no longer apracticing CPA and I shifted
(01:15):
into some of the leadership andoperational, uh, parts of a
business.
And for the last almost fiveyears now have been, uh,
Fractional COO.
So two
KC Brothers (01:27):
accounting firms specifically.
Yeah,
Jen Hamilton (01:28):
two accounting firms.
So I know your world, I've beenin your world, but I also know
there's so much more to it thanjust the client experience.
I wish that's all we had to dois show up and serve our
clients, but it's not.
The operations side needs to berunning as efficiently as
possible so you can just do yourbest work for your clients.
And sometimes the teams aren'tquite.
(01:50):
You know, doing what they needto do and processes are there.
And that's the part where I loveto help get everyone, um, doing
what they're supposed to bedoing and rowing in the same
direction.
KC Brothers (02:02):
Oh, I love that.
Um, yeah, because I mean we'veall heard of, especially in the
space, fractional CFOs becausethat's something that
accountants can do.
I personally, I have people inmy network who have been part of
fractional C level things whereit's like, Okay, well we're
going to go insert ourselves asa fractional CMO, fractional COO
for who knows what.
(02:22):
But you are the first personI've heard being a fractional
COO.
to accountants, which I lovebecause this hits on something
I'm passionate about.
And I know I've talked about onthe podcast, and that's just
rethinking your operations andyour processes.
Um, so I'd love to start with,um, maybe a story, if you can
(02:42):
think of one, I'm putting you onthe spot of one of the most
analog or atrocious.
Operations you've ever seen andwhat, what about it?
Like, you know, like if youheard, if you're saying this and
someone were listening to this,but, but that's me.
I like my post its.
I like my Excel, you know, likewhat, what?
(03:05):
Tell us a story.
Jen Hamilton (03:07):
I'm not going to name names.
We're going to protect theinnocent, right?
Um, but.
I actually have, I can evenblend clients in this realm of
so much is tracked on Excel.
And I think in the accountingworld, we love our spreadsheets.
And so, yeah, um, I can't standreminders by post its, but you
see it happening.
(03:28):
Like the, the, it's all overtheir desk, all over the
computers, you know, tasks.
Reminders that are reallyimportant that get lost.
Um, but I think one of thebiggest atrocious ways that
people work is havingspreadsheets for like CRMs and
tracking.
And, like, they, guess what, thespreadsheet doesn't remind you.
(03:50):
Um, and having automation andhaving some, just even a little
bit of sophistication nowadaysoutside of being able to just
say, well, who's in myspreadsheet?
Who's in my Rolodex?
Which is even worse when it'sjust like a bunch of pile of
cards.
Um, whether it's a CRM or not,but how are you making sure that
you are able to Work withpotential clients and existing
(04:13):
clients and follow through onyour pro promises.
Like to me, that's the big thingthat I would be embarrassed by
and have been embarrassed bywith clients is like, can you
really hold yourself accountableif you are not having a system
that is holding you accountable?
Yes.
So post-its and, andspreadsheets, um, notebooks,
(04:34):
things that, uh, folks.
Think will keep them to do list,you know, it just, it's not
gonna actually allow you to beyour best and do what you intend
and what you promise to do.
KC Brothers (04:46):
I love that, that like, yeah, we don't realize
some instances where our ownprocesses are getting in our way
from actually delivering to astandard that we want to deliver
on, that we want to be knownfor.
Um, I read about a book a whileago called Building a Second
Brain.
(05:06):
Which, if you're this person andyou're struggling with this,
this is a quick read and worthit.
Um, our brains aren't meant toremember and hold everything,
and like, I don't think we get,um, worth or satisfaction from
remembering.
I think the moments where we getworth and satisfaction from is
(05:28):
when we are value additive.
When we are con consultative.
Yes,
Jen Hamilton (05:34):
I love that because I think the thing is if
you really think about what yourclient is paying you for
KC Brothers (05:41):
Yes
Jen Hamilton (05:41):
Are they paying you to remember or are they
paying you to strategize?
And help them see something andknow something they don't know I
don't think they're paying youto remember, I think what they
are counting you on is usingsystems to help free you up to
be strategic.
KC Brothers (06:01):
And they might not say that.
In fact, they won't.
They may not even realize that.
But, um, yeah, you need to, whenit comes to operations, you
can't have your tools requiringthings of you.
You need your tools to work foryou, not the other way around.
Jen Hamilton (06:18):
Absolutely.
I like to think of your tools asanother team member.
And if you, like, like with yourteam, are having to overly
manage, And overly, um, keep aneye on it and cause it to
happen.
Just like a human team member.
You're not getting the mostproductivity out of your tool or
(06:39):
out of your team.
It really should be that it ismanaging you, like you said.
I think that's a really greattest to see.
Is this effective?
The tool should be making yourlife easier.
Making you more productive,making you focus on the right
things, not the other way aroundwhere you're getting bogged down
in what is, you think, youreffective system.
KC Brothers (07:00):
Yeah.
But Jen, I, I don't have time.
I'm at capacity.
Or, or I'm comfortable.
I, this is the way I know ofwhat, what, what, how, what is
your response?
Jen Hamilton (07:13):
Well, let's just say you're not alone because
I've heard it many times andit's real.
Like I don't want to set itaside.
It is, it is real.
Um, the thing is, is it evergoing to change?
So if you're comfortable nothaving time, if you're
comfortable not being your bestand potentially, and I hate to
(07:34):
say it, but especially nowadays,if you are not on top of your
tech, you will be surpassed byothers, maybe even within your
own firm or competition, um, oryounger people that are in the
workforce, but you will besurpassed.
So it's not a, it's not aluxury.
It's a requirement.
It's.
KC Brothers (07:53):
Yeah, and it's not an if, it's a when.
Jen Hamilton (07:56):
Exactly.
So, as much as you may not wantto hear that, and maybe I'm the
one who's going to be the onethat tells you you've got
broccoli in your teeth, butlike, if you are not taking the
time to be able to, like, justeven a little bit of time to be
proactive instead of reactive,because if you don't have time,
That's the whole reason you needto set aside some of your time
(08:19):
to be able to build yourself asa more productive, more
effective professional.
KC Brothers (08:25):
Yeah, to that point.
I actually heard something justthis week.
Um, someone citing I, I'mplaying the, um, telephone game
here because I heard someone saythat someone, I heard someone
say that productivity expertssay that you don't in fact ever
want to be operating at 100percent capacity.
(08:45):
That's not when you're mostproductive.
You want to be operating atabout a 80 percent let's say,
and we know these percentagesare all subjective, right?
But the reason being that youstill always have that wiggle
room to be introspective and tolook, am I doing this the most
effective way?
Can I get better?
I just completed this processfor this client.
(09:07):
I have it coming up for thisclient.
How can I fine tune it?
Jen Hamilton (09:12):
Anytime you can take a pause and reflect and
look at continuous improvement,you will be better serving
yourself, better serving yourfirm, better serving your
client.
Because if we just keep being onthe hamster wheel of what you've
always done, again, you're goingto be passed.
KC Brothers (09:32):
Yeah.
And again, going back to evenlike the value you feel as an
individual, that's not whenyou're going to feel most
valued.
That's not when you're going tofeel, um, most accomplished
even.
You're going, sorry, you'regoing to say something.
Oh no, I was just agreeing.
Go ahead.
Yeah.
I'm glad you agree.
I wish, I, I see a lot of Um,individuals, not just in
(09:55):
accounting, but we do see it alot in accounting.
Um, and I think because we'vehad some real, it's a, it's a
really ancient practice.
Accounting has been around for along time.
Uh, PricewaterhouseCoopers hasbeen around for a long time.
These are not, this is not ecommerce.
This is not social media, right?
But, but, But because they'vebeen such longstanding
(10:17):
industries, they come with theirbaggage.
And some of that baggage isthis, um, hours tracked, you
know, this hamster wheelmentality.
And it's like, that doesn'tequate to output productivity or
value add even, you know, and,and especially intrinsically and
(10:38):
how you feel about what you'redoing.
Jen Hamilton (10:41):
I appreciate you bringing the intrinsic part
because when the day is done, alot of times we lose people to
the profession.
I am one of them who looked forsomewhere else because of
burnout.
And it's, it's more aboutresults.
If you can look at results andoutcome instead of just hours
and productivity.
(11:02):
And that's where you, you hitthat.
Like I'm trying to get it the ahundred percent instead of
backing up and giving you thespace to, like you said, to have
the value of yourself, be ableto make a bigger difference in
your thinking and yourstrategizing, having.
The chance to take a beat and becreative, that's where you're
going to get fulfillment.
(11:22):
That's where you can combat thatburnout because if you just go,
go, go and keep performing, keepperforming, you're never going
to be able to truly feel likeyou are giving your best.
You're giving your brillianceand you have it.
You just need to give it somespace.
To be able to give that to yourteam, to your clients, even to
your family.
(11:43):
I mean, I think one of thehardest things is being so
focused on production versusoutcomes.
You do then end up.
Usually losing that outcome withthe people that are most
important in your life or yourhobbies that are most important
in your life Like it's importantto have yeah, it's not just work
(12:04):
life balance.
Trust me.
I know I work I put in the hoursBut I put in the hours um also
around the things that matter tome most having my time to go and
Do the exercise I love, thetravel that I love, the
volunteering that I love to do.
It's, yes, it's going to make amore full schedule, but it makes
a more full life.
KC Brothers (12:25):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So when you're brought into afirm with an, a love for Excel
and, um, the post its, maybesome, I don't know, whiteboards,
what are some other, um,atrocities?
Anyway, when you're brought intothis world.
Where do you start?
(12:45):
What, what are some of the firstthings you recommend that they
start to look at or, um, reworkand retool?
Jen Hamilton (12:53):
So it's a good question.
So one of the things I like to,to do is begin with a
diagnostics and assessment.
There, in my mind, there are sixmain, what I call pillars to a
business.
And each firm needs to have eachof these pillars strong because
in a business, just like in any,um, House or something.
(13:14):
If you put something on columns,if you have certain pillars that
you're on, if any one of them isweak or cracked, the whole thing
wobbles, it's not strong.
And so there are six things thatI look at.
So what, what I'm looking at isit's not always the same
situation that each firm needs.
It may be one or others that arereally strong.
And so I'm looking for what isweak.
(13:35):
So just to kind of share, so youcan think for yourself, what are
these things that my businessshould have?
Be, um, strong in each of them.
One is strategic direction.
So do you have goals?
Do you have a mission?
Do you have a vision?
Do you have everyone like goingin the same direction and know
where they're going?
The second is leadership.
So knowing how to have greatpeople get great results out of
(13:57):
your people.
The third is team, whichincludes your leaders too, but
does everyone know what'sexpected of them and held
accountable to it, making gooddecisions.
You know, so in other words, youhave a team you can count on to
do their, to do their job.
The, uh, the next one, thefourth one, is client
experience.
I know that's where we love tospend a lot of our time is our
client experience, but do youhave that opportunity to make
(14:20):
sure you're meeting theirrequirements?
The promises that you keep, areyou even able to give them a wow
experience, you know, or is itjust sort of there?
KC Brothers (14:28):
I can't tell you how much, sorry, just, just
double down on that.
Because I, when I entered thespace and started to get to know
accountants, I again and again,heard accountants say how much
they love their clients and howmuch they like to work with
their clients.
And I'm just glad we might needto double down on that after you
(14:49):
say the sixth one, because
Jen Hamilton (14:51):
yeah.
KC Brothers (14:51):
There is, there's this wonderful, um, connection,
um, and, um, sense of, uh,what's not loyalty, but like,
just, I just want to help them.
That is just so wonderful aboutso many of my accounting friends
and the people that I've talkedto that it's been such a common
(15:12):
thread that I feel like mostaccountants.
Probably are operating this way,but yeah, I got into
Jen Hamilton (15:17):
it.
Yeah, there you go.
Yeah.
We just want to make adifference.
We want to bring our brilliance,which happens to be in the
finance world.
And now my case finance and opsto folks that struggle with that
and be able to have their livesbe a little bit better just
because of what we are giftedwith.
And that's part of why I lovethe client experience.
(15:37):
Um, the two other places to lookat in your business are, um,
your cash flows.
So as finance people, weunderstand that, but a lot of
people, yes, we want to know,um, what our cash is, but cash
is coming from profitability oryou're in trouble.
You all know how, how cash flowsand P and L's work and things
like that.
But one of the things that ismost important is the
(15:59):
productivity.
And so looking at systems andlooking at automations and
looking at practice managementwork and.
Um, utilization rates withoutburnout.
Like all of this is going tocause you to have more
profitability.
The more
productive
your folks are.
Um, and the last one is revenuedevelopment is you've got to, in
order to grow, you have to keepdoing your marketing and sales.
(16:22):
And I look at it from anoperational point of view.
Which is, are we tracking ourrates?
You know, are we, um, able tosee, that's why CRMs are so
important.
How are things converting?
And then we can be able toadjust and then train our people
accordingly so that we can hitthe numbers that we're trying to
hit with our, with our revenue.
(16:43):
So for me, to go back to whereyou start, I look for, and
hopefully you can even just do aself assessment in what I
shared, rewind if you need tohear it all, but be honest with
yourself and your firm.
What parts are strong and whatparts are a little cracked in
that pillar?
And that's where I like tostart, is looking at
strengthening.
Proven tools and processes as weall do.
(17:03):
We love the, we love ourprocesses and to be able to, to
start to strengthen.
I will say though, in almostevery case, there's something
around your team that ismissing.
At least for when I'm brought inis, is oftentimes, is there not,
um, clarity on why you're here?
Like having the, the vision, themission, the values, is it not
(17:27):
having clarity on what'sexpected of you or how you're.
Measured beyond utilization rateand your hours billed, that kind
of thing.
So a lot of times there are somegreat work we can do around that
team, because as I said,productivity drives
profitability.
So we want to make sure thatyour biggest asset is your team
are really firing all cylindersin a way that also doesn't burn
(17:50):
them out.
KC Brothers (17:51):
Yeah, yeah.
Because these, some antiquatedanalog operations and processes
really, it's so, busy work is soalmost demoralizing.
Um, no matter your level ofskill, most adults really do
(18:12):
want to, Be trusted.
Most adults really do want toproduce.
Most adults really do want toaccomplish things.
And so busy work is just such asuck on, um, morale,
productivity, um, desire to stayaround.
(18:34):
And man, it costs a company, afirm in this instance, so much
money when you lose an employeeand you have to start all over
again.
Jen Hamilton (18:43):
Absolutely.
And that relationship with theclient may be damaged.
KC Brothers (18:47):
Yes, that too.
Jen Hamilton (18:49):
Which could also hit your revenue line, not just
your expense.
KC Brothers (18:52):
Yeah.
Okay.
So you've identified, um, wherea pillar, um, might be
fractured.
Um, change is hard.
Any change is hard.
Um,
so how do you help firms?
either do this in bite sizedportions or, or maybe just wrap
(19:12):
their brains around the factthat this is going to be painful
for a little bit.
It's a big change.
Some, maybe something we can dosmall, but maybe there are other
things that we have to do big.
How do you, how do you approachthat?
Jen Hamilton (19:23):
Great question.
Change management is always fun.
So I can't work with a clientwho's not willing to try
something new.
Be held accountable, be told,hey, you're doing this wrong.
Not that I call it out likethat, but that's what it's going
to feel like.
Right.
And so if they're not willing todo the work, it's not going to
work.
So that's the first thing isthat you're, you have enough
(19:45):
pain.
Essentially.
It's not going well enough.
That you're willing to make thechange and to hold the team
accountable to make the change.
So it starts with that desire,that motivation so that it's
really clear as you'recommunicating to the rest of the
team.
Here's why we're looking to makethese operational structural
improvements, how it's going tohelp them, how it's going to
(20:07):
help their clients.
You know, as individuals in yourfirm, and then, of course, the
overall firm, if you just go inand say, Hey, this is gonna make
her for more money.
That's not their motivation.
So as with any changemanagement, you want to be clear
on like, where your team's painpoints, the folks that have to
buy into this change.
And listen to them.
My guess is that what the firmneeds is also what they need.
(20:31):
And when you find thatalignment, that's where we can
start to get buy in.
And, and you're right, you do itin bite sized pieces.
One of the things that I thinkis really important, which is
why I start with thatdiagnostics, is I'm looking for
the bite sized piece that'sgonna, like, be the, the
beginning of the domino effect.
I
like to make sure we, we do the, One thing that's
going to help a lot of things.
(20:53):
And so that to me is what'sreally fun is kind of
essentially getting at the rootcause and solving from the root
of the challenge, not just thesymptoms.
And
that's when things really start to fall into place.
So for me, that's, that's fun isfinding that, that beginning
domino and starting to see ittip and everything else start to
get better.
KC Brothers (21:14):
Yeah, so do you ever have an instance where
you've got majority buy in, butyou still have people who are
skeptics?
How do you manage that or how doyou?
Consult your clients to managethat because I bet you it's
probably better coming from themthan it is from you unless I
don't I mean, maybe maybe it isbetter to have that separation
say I'm the third party.
(21:35):
This is what I advise.
So the, the
Jen Hamilton (21:39):
answer to your question is do, does that
sometimes happen?
The answer is it always happens.
There's always someone who's notfully bought in.
And, and I'm not saying forever.
Um, but there's, I don't, Ican't even think of a time when
someone wasn't somewhatresistant.
Yeah.
For whatever reason.
You know, it's just.
It's just kind of the name ofthe game, right?
(22:00):
So, um, what's interesting andpart of why I shifted more from
consulting and advisory to beinga fractional member of the team
is that I do have this beautifulbalance of being, like you said,
that third party, that outsider.
I can see things they can't seebecause I have fresh eyes.
But I also have the authority asa member of the executive team
(22:24):
and really like second incommand to the managing partner
to the owner if it's still ownedBy an individual like we are a
team to make these things happenSo sometimes it is better coming
from me depending on the cultureAnd sometimes it's coming from,
um, the managing partner or theowner.
What I like to do though, ishelp strategize with the, the
(22:49):
leaders of the practice or thefirm to figure out what's the
best way to communicate.
Because every culture is alittle bit different.
Everyone's a little bitdifferent.
And so it's not like a one sizefits all way to, to get people
on board.
But a surefire shortcut, ifyou're just trying to figure
this out, well this works withthe sales, it works with getting
(23:11):
your kids to eat broccoli, iswhat's in it for them, right?
So if you really take the timeto understand whoever's that
resistant, like what is it thatthey don't like about the world
and how what we're gonna do isgonna make the pain that they
have a little bit better,they're much more open to it.
And that's for me, the, the kindof the, the discovery I'm
(23:32):
looking for is where can we getthe two initiatives to align?
Like, you want this better, thefirm wants this better, guess
what?
We found a solution that we canboth make this a better day, a
better way that you can feelgoing home at night and be like,
Oh, okay.
That was a better day than ithas been.
KC Brothers (23:51):
Yeah, I love that.
Um, I'm sure too, you've gotplenty of use cases and examples
of, Hey, but also if you justlisten, let me tell you about
all the wonderful things.
I know, like to your pointthough, in that instance,
listening to those people whoare hesitant to change really
(24:13):
does go a long way, um,regurgitating their words back
to them, helping them feelheard.
Yes.
All of these other, just.
Um, techniques in human behaviorand responding to humans like
they are humans goes a long waywith change.
Um, and, and to your point,there's usually always a shared
(24:36):
goal, shared interest.
Um, I'd, I'd love to maybe closewith like one of your biggest
success stories too.
Like what pie, maybe not pie inthe sky, but like, Something
that my people hear and be like,Oh, I want that.
That's possible because I'm, I,you and I were operation
(24:56):
girlies.
And I'm such a fan of like, if Ican offload it from my brain and
use my brain for what I want touse my brain for and go home at
the end of the day and, and bewith my girls and not be
distracted by my brain, tryingto remember an incessant number
of things, right?
Like I'm happy.
I'm a better employee and I'm abetter mom and I'm a better
rounded individual.
Jen Hamilton (25:17):
Yeah.
KC Brothers (25:17):
And you're healthier, too.
Yeah.
Jen Hamilton (25:19):
Absolutely.
So I, again, I'm going toprotect the innocent.
Um, so I came into a firm.
I ended up working with them forabout 10 months when I first
came in.
Uh, this is just a couple ofyears ago, but I love this
story.
They were post COVID reallyexploded.
Um, went from three people intheir firm to 30.
(25:42):
within just a few years.
Yeah.
So basically what I like to sayis they started to break by
their growth.
Um, I would explain it to otherpeople outside of the world.
It's like they had a gold fishbowl of a firm and they put a
shark in it.
And it was just like, thingswere breaking all over the
place.
Systems were breaking and thingsweren't being, time wasn't being
(26:04):
put in.
They weren't following up withpeople.
Client complaints were justpiling up.
And so it was just likeeverything.
can break, did break.
So sometimes growth that is notsort of measured and, and
structured, like building thescaffolding around the firm is
what could take you down.
And that's what we were, we wereafraid of.
(26:26):
So what was happening with this,um, firm owner is that she was
working.
I wish I was there.
16 to 18 hours a day.
She did not really sleep andthat included the weekends.
She loved to travel, loved to beable to just come explore the
world.
So she would sometimes takevacations, if you can call them
(26:48):
vacations, because she would bestill working and being called
by the team because peoplecouldn't make decisions without
her.
They didn't know what they weredoing.
It was just, it was a hot mess.
She started to get.
A few good people into herleadership team.
And then they decided to bringme on to kind of help sort of
rally the troops and get someform and some structure around
(27:11):
them.
Um, they had tried a different.
If you're familiar with theentrepreneurial operating
system, EOS, they had triedputting some of those pieces in
some worked in some, they justdidn't put in.
Right.
And so they were trying to putin operational pieces, realizing
that that was it.
And then within the 10 months,we really started to work on
being super clear on what wasjust getting so, so simple.
(27:33):
What was it that they promisedin their marketing to their
potential clients?
And then how did the peopledeliver on that promise?
Um, Really started to look atthe marketing was great.
The, the position of the firmowner was very inspiring.
It was all great, but theyweren't delivering on it because
what we started to see is thatthe people that they brought in,
(27:55):
they weren't very intentional,tensional about who they hired.
In this fast growth, because itwas like, Oh my gosh, we just
need people.
And basically what we ended upsaying is that in order to be
able to continue to grow, theywere going to have to shrink.
And that was the work that wedid.
We said, okay, we got to look atwho truly is a fit who wants to
(28:17):
be held accountable.
So we put in moreaccountabilities.
People started to rebel.
They didn't like being seen thatthey weren't meeting their
billable hours, that theyweren't, that they had most of
the client complaints.
You know, all of these things,and so, they just weren't, this
wasn't the place for them.
Started to have people start toquit because of bringing in the
accountability, which is great.
(28:38):
You know, this is ourexpectation.
If you're not meeting it, we'regoing to hold you to it.
KC Brothers (28:41):
Get the right people on the bus.
Absolutely.
And if they're not in the rightseat, move them to the right
seat.
Jen Hamilton (28:47):
Yeah, exactly.
So there was a lot of that workputting in clear expectations
for that client experience sothat there was a more
consistency in how the clientswere coming in on boarding, how
they were served, all of thatkind of stuff.
So again, putting in these greatsystems.
Well, so what ended uphappening?
Yes, the firm did shrink.
Um, and what?
(29:07):
What was able to happen is theystarted hiring really good core
value fit people with the rightskills.
Um, this was a fully remotefirm, so they were able to
actually expand and be able tobring in folks from other parts
of the country.
So open themselves up to be morepicky because they didn't just
have to get in their local area.
(29:29):
And, uh, when I, when I lastchecked in with the firm owner,
because as the right teammembers came in, I was able to
step back, I like to get myreplacement in place, I was able
to do that as I left, when Ilast checked in with her, um,
After she got rid of all thepeople that didn't work, she was
(29:50):
able to, yes, have a smallerfirm, but her profitability went
up, her actual personal incomewent up, and she was able to
take, no joke, a four week, noone called you vacation to
Antarctica.
Like, literally.
To me, that's, that's what wewant for everyone.
It was amazing.
KC Brothers (30:07):
That's it.
And with that, we'll end becausewhat an inspiring story and all
because of good operations,systems, tools, communication to
your point, team experience, andlooking at, you know, what are
we doing to deliver on ourpromises?
Oh my goodness.
That's so, so inspiring.
Jen Hamilton (30:29):
Thanks.
I was proud of them.
They did the work.
I mean, I was there remindingthem what work it was to do and
holding them accountable.
But when the day is done, that'swhy I say it starts with, are
you willing to make the change?
Because man, it's worth it whenyou do.
KC Brothers (30:42):
Uh, well, thank you so much, Jen.
What a wonderful conversation.
Thanks, Casey.
Welcome to another episode of the Canopy Practice
Success Podcast.
I'm one of your lovely hosts,Kaci Brothers, and I'm here
today with Jen Hamilton.
Hi, Jen.
Hi, Kaci.
Thanks for having me.
Thanks for being had.
Um, give a quick introduction toyourself because you have an
interesting role that Ihonestly.
(00:27):
Haven't heard anybody do before.
Jen Hamilton (00:30):
Well, thank you for that.
It's been a fun ride as, asalways with any career changes.
So I started my career as a CPAwas working for
PricewaterhouseCoopers.
And then when I moved, um, thepractice focus that I had was
not offered in San Diego whereI'm from and where I still am.
And so I went into a very smalllocal firm who then got bought
(00:53):
up by a regional firm.
So I've been in all kinds ofaccounting firms.
Started my career and reallyappreciated being able to
experience all differentenvironments.
Um, but yet there was somethingcalling me to more than just the
finance side.
So I now am no longer apracticing CPA and I shifted
(01:15):
into some of the leadership andoperational, uh, parts of a
business.
And for the last almost fiveyears now have been, uh,
Fractional COO.
So two
KC Brothers (01:27):
accounting firms specifically.
Yeah,
Jen Hamilton (01:28):
two accounting firms.
So I know your world, I've beenin your world, but I also know
there's so much more to it thanjust the client experience.
I wish that's all we had to dois show up and serve our
clients, but it's not.
The operations side needs to berunning as efficiently as
possible so you can just do yourbest work for your clients.
And sometimes the teams aren'tquite.
(01:50):
You know, doing what they needto do and processes are there.
And that's the part where I loveto help get everyone, um, doing
what they're supposed to bedoing and rowing in the same
direction.
KC Brothers (02:02):
Oh, I love that.
Um, yeah, because I mean we'veall heard of, especially in the
space, fractional CFOs becausethat's something that
accountants can do.
I personally, I have people inmy network who have been part of
fractional C level things whereit's like, Okay, well we're
going to go insert ourselves asa fractional CMO, fractional COO
for who knows what.
(02:22):
But you are the first personI've heard being a fractional
COO.
to accountants, which I lovebecause this hits on something
I'm passionate about.
And I know I've talked about onthe podcast, and that's just
rethinking your operations andyour processes.
Um, so I'd love to start with,um, maybe a story, if you can
(02:42):
think of one, I'm putting you onthe spot of one of the most
analog or atrocious.
Operations you've ever seen andwhat, what about it?
Like, you know, like if youheard, if you're saying this and
someone were listening to this,but, but that's me.
I like my post its.
I like my Excel, you know, likewhat, what?
(03:05):
Tell us a story.
Jen Hamilton (03:07):
I'm not going to name names.
We're going to protect theinnocent, right?
Um, but.
I actually have, I can evenblend clients in this realm of
so much is tracked on Excel.
And I think in the accountingworld, we love our spreadsheets.
And so, yeah, um, I can't standreminders by post its, but you
see it happening.
(03:28):
Like the, the, it's all overtheir desk, all over the
computers, you know, tasks.
Reminders that are reallyimportant that get lost.
Um, but I think one of thebiggest atrocious ways that
people work is havingspreadsheets for like CRMs and
tracking.
And, like, they, guess what, thespreadsheet doesn't remind you.
(03:50):
Um, and having automation andhaving some, just even a little
bit of sophistication nowadaysoutside of being able to just
say, well, who's in myspreadsheet?
Who's in my Rolodex?
Which is even worse when it'sjust like a bunch of pile of
cards.
Um, whether it's a CRM or not,but how are you making sure that
you are able to Work withpotential clients and existing
(04:13):
clients and follow through onyour pro promises.
Like to me, that's the big thingthat I would be embarrassed by
and have been embarrassed bywith clients is like, can you
really hold yourself accountableif you are not having a system
that is holding you accountable?
Yes.
So post-its and, andspreadsheets, um, notebooks,
(04:34):
things that, uh, folks.
Think will keep them to do list,you know, it just, it's not
gonna actually allow you to beyour best and do what you intend
and what you promise to do.
KC Brothers (04:46):
I love that, that like, yeah, we don't realize
some instances where our ownprocesses are getting in our way
from actually delivering to astandard that we want to deliver
on, that we want to be knownfor.
Um, I read about a book a whileago called Building a Second
Brain.
(05:06):
Which, if you're this person andyou're struggling with this,
this is a quick read and worthit.
Um, our brains aren't meant toremember and hold everything,
and like, I don't think we get,um, worth or satisfaction from
remembering.
I think the moments where we getworth and satisfaction from is
(05:28):
when we are value additive.
When we are con consultative.
Yes,
Jen Hamilton (05:34):
I love that because I think the thing is if
you really think about what yourclient is paying you for
KC Brothers (05:41):
Yes
Jen Hamilton (05:41):
Are they paying you to remember or are they
paying you to strategize?
And help them see something andknow something they don't know I
don't think they're paying youto remember, I think what they
are counting you on is usingsystems to help free you up to
be strategic.
KC Brothers (06:01):
And they might not say that.
In fact, they won't.
They may not even realize that.
But, um, yeah, you need to, whenit comes to operations, you
can't have your tools requiringthings of you.
You need your tools to work foryou, not the other way around.
Jen Hamilton (06:18):
Absolutely.
I like to think of your tools asanother team member.
And if you, like, like with yourteam, are having to overly
manage, And overly, um, keep aneye on it and cause it to
happen.
Just like a human team member.
You're not getting the mostproductivity out of your tool or
(06:39):
out of your team.
It really should be that it ismanaging you, like you said.
I think that's a really greattest to see.
Is this effective?
The tool should be making yourlife easier.
Making you more productive,making you focus on the right
things, not the other way aroundwhere you're getting bogged down
in what is, you think, youreffective system.
KC Brothers (07:00):
Yeah.
But Jen, I, I don't have time.
I'm at capacity.
Or, or I'm comfortable.
I, this is the way I know ofwhat, what, what, how, what is
your response?
Jen Hamilton (07:13):
Well, let's just say you're not alone because
I've heard it many times andit's real.
Like I don't want to set itaside.
It is, it is real.
Um, the thing is, is it evergoing to change?
So if you're comfortable nothaving time, if you're
comfortable not being your bestand potentially, and I hate to
(07:34):
say it, but especially nowadays,if you are not on top of your
tech, you will be surpassed byothers, maybe even within your
own firm or competition, um, oryounger people that are in the
workforce, but you will besurpassed.
So it's not a, it's not aluxury.
It's a requirement.
It's.
KC Brothers (07:53):
Yeah, and it's not an if, it's a when.
Jen Hamilton (07:56):
Exactly.
So, as much as you may not wantto hear that, and maybe I'm the
one who's going to be the onethat tells you you've got
broccoli in your teeth, butlike, if you are not taking the
time to be able to, like, justeven a little bit of time to be
proactive instead of reactive,because if you don't have time,
That's the whole reason you needto set aside some of your time
(08:19):
to be able to build yourself asa more productive, more
effective professional.
KC Brothers (08:25):
Yeah, to that point.
I actually heard something justthis week.
Um, someone citing I, I'mplaying the, um, telephone game
here because I heard someone saythat someone, I heard someone
say that productivity expertssay that you don't in fact ever
want to be operating at 100percent capacity.
(08:45):
That's not when you're mostproductive.
You want to be operating atabout a 80 percent let's say,
and we know these percentagesare all subjective, right?
But the reason being that youstill always have that wiggle
room to be introspective and tolook, am I doing this the most
effective way?
Can I get better?
I just completed this processfor this client.
(09:07):
I have it coming up for thisclient.
How can I fine tune it?
Jen Hamilton (09:12):
Anytime you can take a pause and reflect and
look at continuous improvement,you will be better serving
yourself, better serving yourfirm, better serving your
client.
Because if we just keep being onthe hamster wheel of what you've
always done, again, you're goingto be passed.
KC Brothers (09:32):
Yeah.
And again, going back to evenlike the value you feel as an
individual, that's not whenyou're going to feel most
valued.
That's not when you're going tofeel, um, most accomplished
even.
You're going, sorry, you'regoing to say something.
Oh no, I was just agreeing.
Go ahead.
Yeah.
I'm glad you agree.
I wish, I, I see a lot of Um,individuals, not just in
(09:55):
accounting, but we do see it alot in accounting.
Um, and I think because we'vehad some real, it's a, it's a
really ancient practice.
Accounting has been around for along time.
Uh, PricewaterhouseCoopers hasbeen around for a long time.
These are not, this is not ecommerce.
This is not social media, right?
But, but, But because they'vebeen such longstanding
(10:17):
industries, they come with theirbaggage.
And some of that baggage isthis, um, hours tracked, you
know, this hamster wheelmentality.
And it's like, that doesn'tequate to output productivity or
value add even, you know, and,and especially intrinsically and
(10:38):
how you feel about what you'redoing.
Jen Hamilton (10:41):
I appreciate you bringing the intrinsic part
because when the day is done, alot of times we lose people to
the profession.
I am one of them who looked forsomewhere else because of
burnout.
And it's, it's more aboutresults.
If you can look at results andoutcome instead of just hours
and productivity.
(11:02):
And that's where you, you hitthat.
Like I'm trying to get it the ahundred percent instead of
backing up and giving you thespace to, like you said, to have
the value of yourself, be ableto make a bigger difference in
your thinking and yourstrategizing, having.
The chance to take a beat and becreative, that's where you're
going to get fulfillment.
(11:22):
That's where you can combat thatburnout because if you just go,
go, go and keep performing, keepperforming, you're never going
to be able to truly feel likeyou are giving your best.
You're giving your brillianceand you have it.
You just need to give it somespace.
To be able to give that to yourteam, to your clients, even to
your family.
(11:43):
I mean, I think one of thehardest things is being so
focused on production versusoutcomes.
You do then end up.
Usually losing that outcome withthe people that are most
important in your life or yourhobbies that are most important
in your life Like it's importantto have yeah, it's not just work
(12:04):
life balance.
Trust me.
I know I work I put in the hoursBut I put in the hours um also
around the things that matter tome most having my time to go and
Do the exercise I love, thetravel that I love, the
volunteering that I love to do.
It's, yes, it's going to make amore full schedule, but it makes
a more full life.
KC Brothers (12:25):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So when you're brought into afirm with an, a love for Excel
and, um, the post its, maybesome, I don't know, whiteboards,
what are some other, um,atrocities?
Anyway, when you're brought intothis world.
Where do you start?
(12:45):
What, what are some of the firstthings you recommend that they
start to look at or, um, reworkand retool?
Jen Hamilton (12:53):
So it's a good question.
So one of the things I like to,to do is begin with a
diagnostics and assessment.
There, in my mind, there are sixmain, what I call pillars to a
business.
And each firm needs to have eachof these pillars strong because
in a business, just like in any,um, House or something.
(13:14):
If you put something on columns,if you have certain pillars that
you're on, if any one of them isweak or cracked, the whole thing
wobbles, it's not strong.
And so there are six things thatI look at.
So what, what I'm looking at isit's not always the same
situation that each firm needs.
It may be one or others that arereally strong.
And so I'm looking for what isweak.
(13:35):
So just to kind of share, so youcan think for yourself, what are
these things that my businessshould have?
Be, um, strong in each of them.
One is strategic direction.
So do you have goals?
Do you have a mission?
Do you have a vision?
Do you have everyone like goingin the same direction and know
where they're going?
The second is leadership.
So knowing how to have greatpeople get great results out of
(13:57):
your people.
The third is team, whichincludes your leaders too, but
does everyone know what'sexpected of them and held
accountable to it, making gooddecisions.
You know, so in other words, youhave a team you can count on to
do their, to do their job.
The, uh, the next one, thefourth one, is client
experience.
I know that's where we love tospend a lot of our time is our
client experience, but do youhave that opportunity to make
(14:20):
sure you're meeting theirrequirements?
The promises that you keep, areyou even able to give them a wow
experience, you know, or is itjust sort of there?
KC Brothers (14:28):
I can't tell you how much, sorry, just, just
double down on that.
Because I, when I entered thespace and started to get to know
accountants, I again and again,heard accountants say how much
they love their clients and howmuch they like to work with
their clients.
And I'm just glad we might needto double down on that after you
(14:49):
say the sixth one, because
Jen Hamilton (14:51):
yeah.
KC Brothers (14:51):
There is, there's this wonderful, um, connection,
um, and, um, sense of, uh,what's not loyalty, but like,
just, I just want to help them.
That is just so wonderful aboutso many of my accounting friends
and the people that I've talkedto that it's been such a common
(15:12):
thread that I feel like mostaccountants.
Probably are operating this way,but yeah, I got into
Jen Hamilton (15:17):
it.
Yeah, there you go.
Yeah.
We just want to make adifference.
We want to bring our brilliance,which happens to be in the
finance world.
And now my case finance and opsto folks that struggle with that
and be able to have their livesbe a little bit better just
because of what we are giftedwith.
And that's part of why I lovethe client experience.
(15:37):
Um, the two other places to lookat in your business are, um,
your cash flows.
So as finance people, weunderstand that, but a lot of
people, yes, we want to know,um, what our cash is, but cash
is coming from profitability oryou're in trouble.
You all know how, how cash flowsand P and L's work and things
like that.
But one of the things that ismost important is the
(15:59):
productivity.
And so looking at systems andlooking at automations and
looking at practice managementwork and.
Um, utilization rates withoutburnout.
Like all of this is going tocause you to have more
profitability.
The more
productive
your folks are.
Um, and the last one is revenuedevelopment is you've got to, in
order to grow, you have to keepdoing your marketing and sales.
(16:22):
And I look at it from anoperational point of view.
Which is, are we tracking ourrates?
You know, are we, um, able tosee, that's why CRMs are so
important.
How are things converting?
And then we can be able toadjust and then train our people
accordingly so that we can hitthe numbers that we're trying to
hit with our, with our revenue.
(16:43):
So for me, to go back to whereyou start, I look for, and
hopefully you can even just do aself assessment in what I
shared, rewind if you need tohear it all, but be honest with
yourself and your firm.
What parts are strong and whatparts are a little cracked in
that pillar?
And that's where I like tostart, is looking at
strengthening.
Proven tools and processes as weall do.
(17:03):
We love the, we love ourprocesses and to be able to, to
start to strengthen.
I will say though, in almostevery case, there's something
around your team that ismissing.
At least for when I'm brought inis, is oftentimes, is there not,
um, clarity on why you're here?
Like having the, the vision, themission, the values, is it not
(17:27):
having clarity on what'sexpected of you or how you're.
Measured beyond utilization rateand your hours billed, that kind
of thing.
So a lot of times there are somegreat work we can do around that
team, because as I said,productivity drives
profitability.
So we want to make sure thatyour biggest asset is your team
are really firing all cylindersin a way that also doesn't burn
(17:50):
them out.
KC Brothers (17:51):
Yeah, yeah.
Because these, some antiquatedanalog operations and processes
really, it's so, busy work is soalmost demoralizing.
Um, no matter your level ofskill, most adults really do
(18:12):
want to, Be trusted.
Most adults really do want toproduce.
Most adults really do want toaccomplish things.
And so busy work is just such asuck on, um, morale,
productivity, um, desire to stayaround.
(18:34):
And man, it costs a company, afirm in this instance, so much
money when you lose an employeeand you have to start all over
again.
Jen Hamilton (18:43):
Absolutely.
And that relationship with theclient may be damaged.
KC Brothers (18:47):
Yes, that too.
Jen Hamilton (18:49):
Which could also hit your revenue line, not just
your expense.
KC Brothers (18:52):
Yeah.
Okay.
So you've identified, um, wherea pillar, um, might be
fractured.
Um, change is hard.
Any change is hard.
Um,
so how do you help firms?
either do this in bite sizedportions or, or maybe just wrap
(19:12):
their brains around the factthat this is going to be painful
for a little bit.
It's a big change.
Some, maybe something we can dosmall, but maybe there are other
things that we have to do big.
How do you, how do you approachthat?
Jen Hamilton (19:23):
Great question.
Change management is always fun.
So I can't work with a clientwho's not willing to try
something new.
Be held accountable, be told,hey, you're doing this wrong.
Not that I call it out likethat, but that's what it's going
to feel like.
Right.
And so if they're not willing todo the work, it's not going to
work.
So that's the first thing isthat you're, you have enough
(19:45):
pain.
Essentially.
It's not going well enough.
That you're willing to make thechange and to hold the team
accountable to make the change.
So it starts with that desire,that motivation so that it's
really clear as you'recommunicating to the rest of the
team.
Here's why we're looking to makethese operational structural
improvements, how it's going tohelp them, how it's going to
(20:07):
help their clients.
You know, as individuals in yourfirm, and then, of course, the
overall firm, if you just go inand say, Hey, this is gonna make
her for more money.
That's not their motivation.
So as with any changemanagement, you want to be clear
on like, where your team's painpoints, the folks that have to
buy into this change.
And listen to them.
My guess is that what the firmneeds is also what they need.
(20:31):
And when you find thatalignment, that's where we can
start to get buy in.
And, and you're right, you do itin bite sized pieces.
One of the things that I thinkis really important, which is
why I start with thatdiagnostics, is I'm looking for
the bite sized piece that'sgonna, like, be the, the
beginning of the domino effect.
I
like to make sure we, we do the, One thing that's
going to help a lot of things.
(20:53):
And so that to me is what'sreally fun is kind of
essentially getting at the rootcause and solving from the root
of the challenge, not just thesymptoms.
And
that's when things really start to fall into place.
So for me, that's, that's fun isfinding that, that beginning
domino and starting to see ittip and everything else start to
get better.
KC Brothers (21:14):
Yeah, so do you ever have an instance where
you've got majority buy in, butyou still have people who are
skeptics?
How do you manage that or how doyou?
Consult your clients to managethat because I bet you it's
probably better coming from themthan it is from you unless I
don't I mean, maybe maybe it isbetter to have that separation
say I'm the third party.
(21:35):
This is what I advise.
So the, the
Jen Hamilton (21:39):
answer to your question is do, does that
sometimes happen?
The answer is it always happens.
There's always someone who's notfully bought in.
And, and I'm not saying forever.
Um, but there's, I don't, Ican't even think of a time when
someone wasn't somewhatresistant.
Yeah.
For whatever reason.
You know, it's just.
It's just kind of the name ofthe game, right?
(22:00):
So, um, what's interesting andpart of why I shifted more from
consulting and advisory to beinga fractional member of the team
is that I do have this beautifulbalance of being, like you said,
that third party, that outsider.
I can see things they can't seebecause I have fresh eyes.
But I also have the authority asa member of the executive team
(22:24):
and really like second incommand to the managing partner
to the owner if it's still ownedBy an individual like we are a
team to make these things happenSo sometimes it is better coming
from me depending on the cultureAnd sometimes it's coming from,
um, the managing partner or theowner.
What I like to do though, ishelp strategize with the, the
(22:49):
leaders of the practice or thefirm to figure out what's the
best way to communicate.
Because every culture is alittle bit different.
Everyone's a little bitdifferent.
And so it's not like a one sizefits all way to, to get people
on board.
But a surefire shortcut, ifyou're just trying to figure
this out, well this works withthe sales, it works with getting
(23:11):
your kids to eat broccoli, iswhat's in it for them, right?
So if you really take the timeto understand whoever's that
resistant, like what is it thatthey don't like about the world
and how what we're gonna do isgonna make the pain that they
have a little bit better,they're much more open to it.
And that's for me, the, the kindof the, the discovery I'm
(23:32):
looking for is where can we getthe two initiatives to align?
Like, you want this better, thefirm wants this better, guess
what?
We found a solution that we canboth make this a better day, a
better way that you can feelgoing home at night and be like,
Oh, okay.
That was a better day than ithas been.
KC Brothers (23:51):
Yeah, I love that.
Um, I'm sure too, you've gotplenty of use cases and examples
of, Hey, but also if you justlisten, let me tell you about
all the wonderful things.
I know, like to your pointthough, in that instance,
listening to those people whoare hesitant to change really
(24:13):
does go a long way, um,regurgitating their words back
to them, helping them feelheard.
Yes.
All of these other, just.
Um, techniques in human behaviorand responding to humans like
they are humans goes a long waywith change.
Um, and, and to your point,there's usually always a shared
(24:36):
goal, shared interest.
Um, I'd, I'd love to maybe closewith like one of your biggest
success stories too.
Like what pie, maybe not pie inthe sky, but like, Something
that my people hear and be like,Oh, I want that.
That's possible because I'm, I,you and I were operation
(24:56):
girlies.
And I'm such a fan of like, if Ican offload it from my brain and
use my brain for what I want touse my brain for and go home at
the end of the day and, and bewith my girls and not be
distracted by my brain, tryingto remember an incessant number
of things, right?
Like I'm happy.
I'm a better employee and I'm abetter mom and I'm a better
rounded individual.
Jen Hamilton (25:17):
Yeah.
KC Brothers (25:17):
And you're healthier, too.
Yeah.
Jen Hamilton (25:19):
Absolutely.
So I, again, I'm going toprotect the innocent.
Um, so I came into a firm.
I ended up working with them forabout 10 months when I first
came in.
Uh, this is just a couple ofyears ago, but I love this
story.
They were post COVID reallyexploded.
Um, went from three people intheir firm to 30.
(25:42):
within just a few years.
Yeah.
So basically what I like to sayis they started to break by
their growth.
Um, I would explain it to otherpeople outside of the world.
It's like they had a gold fishbowl of a firm and they put a
shark in it.
And it was just like, thingswere breaking all over the
place.
Systems were breaking and thingsweren't being, time wasn't being
(26:04):
put in.
They weren't following up withpeople.
Client complaints were justpiling up.
And so it was just likeeverything.
can break, did break.
So sometimes growth that is notsort of measured and, and
structured, like building thescaffolding around the firm is
what could take you down.
And that's what we were, we wereafraid of.
(26:26):
So what was happening with this,um, firm owner is that she was
working.
I wish I was there.
16 to 18 hours a day.
She did not really sleep andthat included the weekends.
She loved to travel, loved to beable to just come explore the
world.
So she would sometimes takevacations, if you can call them
(26:48):
vacations, because she would bestill working and being called
by the team because peoplecouldn't make decisions without
her.
They didn't know what they weredoing.
It was just, it was a hot mess.
She started to get.
A few good people into herleadership team.
And then they decided to bringme on to kind of help sort of
rally the troops and get someform and some structure around
(27:11):
them.
Um, they had tried a different.
If you're familiar with theentrepreneurial operating
system, EOS, they had triedputting some of those pieces in
some worked in some, they justdidn't put in.
Right.
And so they were trying to putin operational pieces, realizing
that that was it.
And then within the 10 months,we really started to work on
being super clear on what wasjust getting so, so simple.
(27:33):
What was it that they promisedin their marketing to their
potential clients?
And then how did the peopledeliver on that promise?
Um, Really started to look atthe marketing was great.
The, the position of the firmowner was very inspiring.
It was all great, but theyweren't delivering on it because
what we started to see is thatthe people that they brought in,
(27:55):
they weren't very intentional,tensional about who they hired.
In this fast growth, because itwas like, Oh my gosh, we just
need people.
And basically what we ended upsaying is that in order to be
able to continue to grow, theywere going to have to shrink.
And that was the work that wedid.
We said, okay, we got to look atwho truly is a fit who wants to
(28:17):
be held accountable.
So we put in moreaccountabilities.
People started to rebel.
They didn't like being seen thatthey weren't meeting their
billable hours, that theyweren't, that they had most of
the client complaints.
You know, all of these things,and so, they just weren't, this
wasn't the place for them.
Started to have people start toquit because of bringing in the
accountability, which is great.
(28:38):
You know, this is ourexpectation.
If you're not meeting it, we'regoing to hold you to it.
KC Brothers (28:41):
Get the right people on the bus.
Absolutely.
And if they're not in the rightseat, move them to the right
seat.
Jen Hamilton (28:47):
Yeah, exactly.
So there was a lot of that workputting in clear expectations
for that client experience sothat there was a more
consistency in how the clientswere coming in on boarding, how
they were served, all of thatkind of stuff.
So again, putting in these greatsystems.
Well, so what ended uphappening?
Yes, the firm did shrink.
Um, and what?
(29:07):
What was able to happen is theystarted hiring really good core
value fit people with the rightskills.
Um, this was a fully remotefirm, so they were able to
actually expand and be able tobring in folks from other parts
of the country.
So open themselves up to be morepicky because they didn't just
have to get in their local area.
(29:29):
And, uh, when I, when I lastchecked in with the firm owner,
because as the right teammembers came in, I was able to
step back, I like to get myreplacement in place, I was able
to do that as I left, when Ilast checked in with her, um,
After she got rid of all thepeople that didn't work, she was
(29:50):
able to, yes, have a smallerfirm, but her profitability went
up, her actual personal incomewent up, and she was able to
take, no joke, a four week, noone called you vacation to
Antarctica.
Like, literally.
To me, that's, that's what wewant for everyone.
It was amazing.
KC Brothers (30:07):
That's it.
And with that, we'll end becausewhat an inspiring story and all
because of good operations,systems, tools, communication to
your point, team experience, andlooking at, you know, what are
we doing to deliver on ourpromises?
Oh my goodness.
That's so, so inspiring.
Jen Hamilton (30:29):
Thanks.
I was proud of them.
They did the work.
I mean, I was there remindingthem what work it was to do and
holding them accountable.
But when the day is done, that'swhy I say it starts with, are
you willing to make the change?
Because man, it's worth it whenyou do.
KC Brothers (30:42):
Uh, well, thank you so much, Jen.
What a wonderful conversation.
Thanks, Casey.
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