Koko B. Ware Tells All – From Memphis to the Birdman Legacy: Prime Time Vault - Prime Time with Sean Mooney

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
This is a Prime Time with Sean Mooney production.

Speaker 2 (00:03):
All right.

Speaker 1 (00:03):
As you know, if you're a loyal listener to the program,
you're aware that I certainly had some great mentors and
people I was close to during my time with the WWF.
Wwe among them, of course, Lord Alfred Hayes, you know,
Guerrilla Monsoon, Gene Oakland, and a lot of people behind
the scenes. But you know, really very few wrestlers, and
most of that was by choice. As I mentioned before.

(00:25):
You know, I was very aware of the fact that
I wasn't one of the boys, and I thought it
was really better to maintain a you know, kind of
a level of professionalism around him, around the wrestlers. But
there were a few, you know who I work with
a lot, who I really got along well with, and
you know, who I considered as friends and who helped
me out a lot during the time that I was
with the WWF, And that would certainly include my guest today,

(00:49):
Coco Beware. Coco, thank you so much for coming on primetime.

Speaker 2 (00:53):
How are you, hey, I'm doing fine, Sean. What do
you mean, Sean, that you wasn't one of the boys.

Speaker 1 (01:00):
Well, you know, when you were an announcer or if
you were uh you know, uh, somebody that worked outside
of the ring who had never stepped in the ring.

Speaker 2 (01:09):
Uh. Yeah, But Shaun, we considered we consider you one
of the boys because that's reason why the bird mad
Coco beware uh reached out to you and and and
you became my friend because you you showed me that
you was one of the boys and that you could
be you could be a person that that you enjoyed

(01:31):
being around and all that stuff. I mean, come on,
you you were still one of the boys. I mean, god,
I mean, I mean, I'm saying, I'm saying I'm mouth
fool because I'm telling you the truth though, but I
would associate with you if you wasn't one of the boys.
And I'm about one of the real group of guys.
I'm not talking about just uh just you know, okay,

(01:52):
so so so so. I mean, you showed me your
true colors and stuff like that, and I felt that
that we got along great, and that's why you was
one of my friends. Instead of saying one of the boys,
one of my main friends.

Speaker 1 (02:08):
Well, man, you know, Coca, that that really means a
lot to me, it does it, because that is uh,
it's a. It's a tough fraternity to uh be able
to be accepted in that world. It's a tough world.
And uh, you know, I always respected what you guys
did in the ring, and I think that you know,
it took a while, but eventually, I think you guys
realized that, and you know, and and we really did

(02:29):
have a tremendous time during that period of time. But
there weren't a lot of guys that I got close to,
and and just for a lot of different reasons, I
wasn't on the road as much as you guys were.
But Uh, you and I, you know, I really did
hit it off. And I always loved uh what you
did in the ring, and you were always so positive
about what you were doing. You were always so thankful
and grateful for what you had in your life. And

(02:50):
I think that, you know, that was one one of
the things that I really liked about you when UH
was working day.

Speaker 2 (02:57):
I mean, we all know that. I mean you you
you you're announcing commentating stuff like that. I mean, it
hasn't changed even right now, and what I'm saying, but
you have different announcers to have the Thrilla Monsoon, you
had the Genie Oakland. You know, you have the Lance Russell,

(03:20):
you have Dave Brown. But you know what I put you,
I put you up there with the best of them, Sean,
because I mean, hey, they just they really didn't give
you an opportunity to really get out there and do
your your thing. I mean they just kund of just

(03:42):
kind of okay, you're the front man or whatever you
you know, Okay, but you weren't the main characters. But
you could have took gene Ople spot anytime.

Speaker 1 (03:52):
Well I appreciate that, but like I say, there's Gena
and then there's the rest of us. But I really
did enjoy getting the chance to go out there and
and and I really took pride in the in the uh,
you know, kind of announced that I was able to
do that. I was able to put you guys over
when you did these interviews, and we had the event center,
and then I get to go to you know, the
the live events, the pay per views, and we got

(04:13):
to do some you know, great interviews. I always loved
doing those, and they I really do think that they
did add uh, you know, back in the day to
those storylines that I don't you know, I don't know
if they really capture that the same way they did
back then, because uh, you know it really they really
allowed you guys as characters to develop. They really allowed
you to you know, uh, not only whatever the storyline

(04:36):
was going on, but that character that that the the
audience really could identify with.

Speaker 2 (04:41):
House It was real. That character was real. I mean,
it wasn't just everybody today. It just kind of you know,
get in line, everybody kind of say the same thing,
walk the same thing. Uh, turn to the right, turn
to the layl uh. Everything is program Yeah. And and

(05:02):
but you know what, I still you know what you
came knock success, So I'm not knocking those guys. And
you know they still they still they're still doing tremendous business.
And so let's let's keep my hand. I took my
head off to them. More power to the new generations
going on.

Speaker 1 (05:20):
And I've heard you comment before that you say, you
see some of the things that they do in the ring.
Now you're like, you know, my goodness, how in the
world you know, because it is incredible. Yeah, yeah, that
they didn't do that kind of stuff.

Speaker 2 (05:33):
Right back then, exactly, you know, and and uh, and
I know you have to change with time and stuff
like that. But I think they have great talent up there,
and and uh, the only thing we just didn't we
didn't have to do the storylines and stuff like that.
And we drew ninety three thousand people without storyline I mean,

(05:56):
without script script writers what I'm saying. Yeah, And so
that's what made it. So, you know, that's talent to me,
where you can go out there and draw ninety three
thousand people and know how to read those script Yeah.

Speaker 1 (06:09):
Well, you know, I really wanted we're going to get
into talking about your days of the WWF, But one
thing that my listeners are always very interested in is
how you got there. And you know, I know you
started pretty early in your life, but give us kind
of you know, the background, what you know growing up.
I know you grew up in Union City, Tennessee. You

(06:32):
know what that was like. I don't know if you
had a lot of siblings or family. You know what
your family was like. And then how you eventually found wrestling.

Speaker 2 (06:41):
Well, I had two sisters coming up and it was
just only three of us. I was the only male
of owned, a son of my parents. And and you
know what, for some reasons, son, I just felt in
love with professional wrestling when it came to my hometown
Thursday night. I mean, I had to be there, and

(07:03):
I just fell in love with it. And and that's
what I just as a kid, just coming up and saying, Hey,
that's what I wanted to be. I want to be
a I want to be a wrestler, told my mother
and father, I want to be a wrestler. I want
to be a wrestler. You know, I got to I
gotta be this character, you know. And back then it
was I'm gonna say some wrestlers name you probably have
heard of, Jackie Fargo. I'm gonna mention Jerry LAWLERD, the

(07:27):
King Jerry Lawlerd. Back then he was he was a
young buck then, but he was like playing one of
MIC favorite because I wanted to be like him, especially
when he came out with I think the referee one
night took around like maybe ten fifteen chain offer him,

(07:47):
you know, the foul chain, and there's a long chain
in his boost and chain in the trunk right and
he had he had chained everywhere he's changing. So I
thought that was the greatest thing. And uh, and so
I found it and when I prayed about it and
prayed about it, and you know what if it happened

(08:08):
and one one one Sunday afternoon, I was just riding
my little bike, uh, down at the where the wrestling
building where they have it. This was on a Sunday evening. Yeah,
and so when I heard some noise, Man, it sounded

(08:28):
like they're wrestling in there. I said, this is not
Thursday night, this is Sunday evening. So I kind of
worked went around the back and kind of just peeked in.
They kind of had the door cracked a little bit.
I peeped in and I saw the guys. You know,
it's just more guys what evening Jerry Lawler or what
even Jackie Fargo, any of those guys. But in one row.

(08:51):
It wasn't those guys like that. Uh, it was just
another group of guys. Was just we're just in there
working out and to becoming young wrestlers.

Speaker 1 (09:02):
You know, how old are you at this point? How
old are you by that time?

Speaker 2 (09:06):
I guess it was around like maybe fifteen sixteen.

Speaker 1 (09:09):
Right now, you were a pretty good athlete. Imagine you
must have been a good athlete. Did you play any
other sports or were you just interested?

Speaker 2 (09:15):
I played, Yeah, I played the I played football. I was.
I was a noseguard for for for the Tornadoes of
Union City Tornadoes, and man, I was one the heck
of with no noseguard. I was the only note. I
was the only lineman that ever was supported touchdown because
I had got a fumber one night and I ran

(09:36):
the ball in for a touchdown, and I was just
I was so quick that they couldn't believe that I was.
I could have my hands on the quarterback by the
time he's the center heights to wall touring them I had.
I was already in the air and had my hands
on the quarterback. And the referee never did throw a

(09:58):
flags and that I went across the line too fast
and all that stuff. He was. They was just incredible,
you know. And our and that's where I got the name.
That was part of the name Coco and all that
stuff and so and and back then I was I
was only Black America on the team, really, you know, yes,

(10:22):
and African American. And say that to me back, I
will say, I don't say. I don't ever say African American.
School excuse me. I always say a black America because
I don't know anything about Africa. It was about by
just going and and and I've been there before and
just different seeing different sites. But I consider myself as

(10:43):
a black American. And I was the only one on
the team at the time, and I was just and
I loved to play football. I just saw it and
and uh and they really started pushing me and and
and at the time, I was Coco Kid when I
started out, not not playing football, was playing Russian. That
was my wrestling name, Coco Kid.

Speaker 1 (11:05):
So you went to this warehouse, did you? Did you
just uh say, hell, how to start going?

Speaker 2 (11:12):
Yeah, I was gonna get back to that. I was
just I just kind of speed it up and then
I was going to go back. But uh, yes, after
after all of that, I came back and I was
talking to the guys and asked the guys and man,
what are y'all doing? I said, uh, can I join
you guys and stuff like that. And at the time, Cali,
I'm a big football player, kind of muscle out and

(11:35):
stuff like that. I was kind of stocky, you know,
And they went wow, and said I told them I
played football for the U City High School and all that,
and so they, uh, they said, tell you what, kid,
what you need to do. You need to go home.
You need to have your parents to sign you know,
some kind of uh stipulation where that that we're that

(11:56):
we're not responsible for what happened. Did you get hurt something?
So I went home, man, I got on that bicycle
and and you thought I was there our on heart
or earned Hart junior, you know, trying to ride that bicycle.
And so I went home, told my mother about it
and all that stuff, and then uh, she said, you

(12:16):
sure you want to do this? Yes, mother is I said,
I fact, there's ma opportunity. I don't know. I just signing, Marma,
just sign whatever. And she just scribbled something down whatever.
I don't even know what. I just took him back
to him, said my mother here, she signed the papers here.
And we started working out then. And from that point, man,

(12:37):
I was just I kept working out, uh every Sunday
evening and stuff like that, and going to the matches
on a Thursday night and uh and then one night,
one night, they uh, one Saturday night they keep they
called me up and said, Coco, this is what uh,
this is what's going on. Man, we would love for
you to make a trip with us. I said where. Yeah, uh, Paducah, Kentucky.

(13:03):
I said, Paducah and they said yeah. She said. He said, man,
we're going to We're going to the rest. We were
wrestling up there to night. We want you to come
with us. And he said, I said, sure, I go.
He said, well, bring your bring your bags. I said
for what what? Just in case you make a chance

(13:23):
wrestling to me? I said really, I said, Oh my god.
I started feeling butterflies my stomach a little bit, you know.
So I went, I got all packed up and stuff,
and then we left. We took off again, and we
got out of the got in the parking lot and
then we uh, everybody was getting their bags out and
and uh, I kind of left my bag there. And

(13:47):
he said, Cocher, what are you doing? Where's your bag at?
I left it in the trunk. Why do you Why
are you leaving it in the trunk? I said, I
don't know. I'm not wrestling on the college. Well, they
get your bag, cocon just case she may have to wrestle.
You don't have to run back to the car, you know.
Just you know, I'm just going like I'm just I'm

(14:08):
just programmed that I'm not wrestling tonight. That's right, that's
the pot of life. So when I get in there,
there's these big monsters here. I am still a kid,
like you know, like sixteen seventeen, was seventeen, eighteen years
old and whatever. Well in sixty I believe, and I'm going,
oh my god, I can't leave this big old monsters

(14:30):
walking around here. Man. They looked. I thought, you know,
this guy was huge, and uh so I sat down.
I eased down, sat down in a chair, and I
got required just looking at everybody and everybody, and then
the finally the promoter came overs. They called me Cocoke Kid,

(14:51):
and I'm going I didn't need the answer because I
didn't know the name. You know. They those guys already
gave me co you know, gave the maid and I didn't.
They didn't tell me. And uh and uh he said, hey,
I'm talking to you you co Coke. I said me, no,

(15:12):
I'm you know, he said, And uh he said, Uh,
what are you trying to do? He said, are you
trying to be a big shot already? That you you uh,
you're not gonna get dressed to the last like you
know your main event already. You know, you got you
got the big head already you know. And I'm going, sir, Sir,

(15:32):
I don't know what you're talking about. He said, you
don't know what. You don't know what I'm talking about.
Co Coke Kids. Look here you are on the Rascal
card tonight. You are rastling. Hold on, wait a minute,
somebody give me a card. He gave me the car.
Look at here Coke Coke Kids versus the Superstorier you

(15:56):
on the first match.

Speaker 1 (15:58):
And I'm going, I'm just now, how long at this point, Coco,
had you been you know, training? I mean, how much
training did you have to this point?

Speaker 2 (16:07):
Oh, I've been trained for I guess the whole probably
is what's in a year?

Speaker 1 (16:12):
Okay, So you had some idea what to do once
you got in there.

Speaker 2 (16:16):
Yeah, yeah, that's what I'm saying. I had, I had,
but I didn't. I didn't. I didn't. I didn't know.
Those guys are gonna have me, you know that night?

Speaker 1 (16:25):
Right?

Speaker 2 (16:25):
Right? And so so man, he's I'm going, what and
the butterflies and your land was just started acting up
inside of my stomach and I was, oh.

Speaker 1 (16:36):
No, God destroyer, I mean, come on, I'd be nervous, right,
And this.

Speaker 2 (16:41):
Guy here was like three hundred pounds. Looked like weigh
three hundred pounds. And he was just pacing up and
down road it. I mean, uh, the way in front
of me. He was just pacing up down out in
front of me. And he was just walking back and
forth in dress rooms and looking at me so mean
and stuff. And I say, yeah, I can't wait to

(17:02):
bush you up when I get out there. He did
every time. Oh my god. And those guys on the
floor laughing at me. They was all laughing at me.
And I said, what do y'all got me into? You know,
didn't tell me I'm messling that. I was already booking
the cards, man, I said, what is wrong with these guys? Well,

(17:25):
you know, hey, that's part of that's appreciation of the
business part of it, man, and stuff like that. You
my first rib I was, I'm telling you, and I
just couldnot believe. And then when I got in there
and uh, they I listen to him whatever and all
that old stuff, and man, I'm I'm sitting there, said,

(17:45):
oh my god, and keep you back how you know,
I will say, like, well, you know how buck we
looks well? I was I was Brugwick Junior that night
because if we couldn't pass my brothers, I was figured

(18:05):
in the sword field.

Speaker 1 (18:08):
Oh my god, match, how'd you do?

Speaker 2 (18:12):
Well? Hold on, don't you know? And and finally we
had the match, and we went out there and had
the match, and he throve me, Sean, he throve me
for one end of that ring to the other ring,
I mean the other other side, the other side, and
he slammed me. He slammed me, and Nord and they
all they told me, bo out there and just take bumps,

(18:33):
you know, just take bumps. Don't even try to fight back,
you know, because they wanted super start to go over
real strong, and boy, I just went out there and
I felt like, I mean, I felt sorry for a
flip fish, because I think I have the whole record
of flipping the more than a fish. But what I man,

(18:53):
I'm telling you, I was so sore and I couldn't
when I came back to dress room, I said, oh,
and they all, I'm just now I'm sore, and now
I'm telling all my back on my leg, oh my neck,
everything they said. I said, Oh my god, I'm not
gonna make it, man, I'm not gonna make you be
all right in two weeks, You'll be all right.

Speaker 1 (19:14):
Oh my and uh, they said, do you remember what
the finish was?

Speaker 2 (19:19):
Well, the finish when he just completely just bomp me
and bomped me as big pirates slam me one two three,
and is over? You know. And I didn't you know
what I'm saying. I and when I got home, you
feel like I didn't wake up till the next Thursday,
you know, a week Thursday, you know, Oh my god,

(19:39):
it was. It was. I told my mother, my mother
was trying to get me out of the bed. Are
you gonna Are you gonna get up on the bed today, mam?
I came home and walk. I told you got that wrestling.
I'm told you.

Speaker 1 (19:53):
Were you discouraged at this point and you couldn't wait
to get back in there.

Speaker 2 (19:57):
At that point, I was trying to get it is over.

Speaker 1 (20:01):
That's the pain was overwhelming.

Speaker 2 (20:04):
Yeah, the pain was there, man, and and uh and uh.
And finally when I got you know, like three or
four days and I got into the school. You know,
when I went to the gym, I mean the gym
at the school. We had we had this big old
uh uh warmed, this big old tank that we can
get off in and with loot, warm water and stuff

(20:27):
like that, and then get the saw and his sword
is out and all that stuff. So that that helped
out a whole lot.

Speaker 1 (20:34):
So the Destroyer was a little steff. I take it.

Speaker 2 (20:38):
Well, Well, Trubo, you know, he might have been. He
might have been. Now, he might have been still for me.
I'm sure he probably was, but did uh but you know,
like I said, I don't know how he worked when
he worked for somebody else.

Speaker 1 (20:51):
Yeah, okay, so uh that was your introduction. I guess
things got better.

Speaker 2 (20:58):
Things got a lot better after that. I mean after
you know, I didn't have that three hundred pound guy
that I could go out there and work a match with,
and then I ran it to uh. After that, those
guys left for some kind of way, and Uncle Elmer
came in in Union City, big Plymar Fraser. He came
in selling furniture and and and and and running wrestling

(21:22):
on a Saturday night at this building. And so I
got hooked up with uh with doctor Elmer right and
what we call plyboy right right. And I got hooked
up with him, and I was selling furniture and I
was wrestling too, and I was getting it, you know,

(21:42):
I got it down, you know, I was. I was
getting it together and I had my time in down
and Fraser worked out with me and he was showing
me some things, and he brought some guys in that
work that wrestled against me and in uh, in this
little old place that we had that he had wrestled,
and there were Saturday night and I was the kind
of like little name drawer out there. Man, everybody, man

(22:06):
come on out and see Coco. Come on down and
sea Coco. You know, the hot the high fire.

Speaker 1 (22:11):
Yeah, Coca.

Speaker 2 (22:12):
What were you? So?

Speaker 1 (22:12):
What was it that uh, you know that puts you
above like where you started to really get known for you.
You were doing high flying moves that other people weren't doing.
It was it that quickness that you had that was different?

Speaker 2 (22:25):
Well? Uh, what really happened with Plyboy? After a while,
Plyboy called, I didn't know it? He was good friends
with Jerry Lawler?

Speaker 1 (22:36):
Oh really?

Speaker 2 (22:37):
And yes, fly Boy called Jerry Lawler for me and uh,
he said, Jerry, he said, man, this is one kid
I need you to take a look at. Huh. And
he's he's you're talking about a prospect, man, I got one?
And he said, uh, he said, we'll bring him, bring
him over over to Arkansas Friday night, which is over

(23:00):
b Blaville, Arkansas, right and uh and and and back
then they was over there at the American Legion building.
They were selling out. Man, there was people packed. I
mean they was facting there like sorr es and uh.

Speaker 1 (23:17):
So he was bringing a couple thousand people. Man, you
know what.

Speaker 2 (23:22):
I'm gonna say, if that if probably more than that,
I won't say. You know, because they were they were
standing all in the aisle. They were they were hanging
from the rafters.

Speaker 1 (23:32):
And they were thousand. That was a huge crowd back then.

Speaker 2 (23:38):
Yes, And so when I met Jerry, so I came
over and I met Jury and then Jerry said, po boy,
tell me that you you. He said, may you count
like a little hot dog in the ring? I said, well,
I don't know, you know, I said, I just I
just go out there and do what I can do.
And he said, well, I'm gonna put you in the

(23:59):
ring to I got to see you because Flyboarding called
me like three or four times and told me about you.
And uh he said, I'm gonna put you in with
a guy named Frankie Lane. And he said he said,
Franken Lane is he's a high spot. He's one of
my top high spot guys. I'm talking about. He can

(24:20):
go with this, this Franken Lane guy. He said, you
think you can keep up with Franken Lane. I said,
I don't know, but I said it's worth a try. Yeah.
So we got out there. Uh and at that point,
all the butterflies and everything was over. I mean I
was ready. I mean I felt good and all that
stuff out there, and Frankie went in and then me

(24:43):
and Frankie went around locked up and Frankie called it
a nice spot and everything, and I was I said okay,
and we went for it man, and uh, well I
did the first spot. Frankn Lane said, wow, you are incredible,
especially you know when I when when I locked up

(25:06):
with him, and he said, oh, you you're very you know,
you're not still for anything like that. You're just so relaxed.
And everything was just like clockwork, everything boom, everything he
called boom. I was there. I was there. I was there.
I was there. And then of course, uh, the end
of the match, you know, he he kind of sat

(25:27):
over and stuff like that. But when I got back
to the dressing room, at Lawler said, kid, you are awesome.
You were awesome out there. He said, can you make
can you make Channel five wrestling? Uh, tomorrow morning? And

(25:47):
I'm going, I'm going, well, I guess, I guess. So
I didn't know anything about Memphis, Tennessee at all, didn't
know nothing. Just hurt.

Speaker 1 (25:57):
It was a big territory, right, knew.

Speaker 2 (25:59):
I just knew it was big. I just because I
saw it on, you know, seeing pictures on the news
and and all this all this stuff was happening in
Memphis and all that stuff, and and they and that.
But I've never been there.

Speaker 1 (26:11):
And so I've never been to Memphis.

Speaker 2 (26:14):
Never been to Memphis.

Speaker 3 (26:15):
And I told my dad and and and uh, you
got to take me the Memphis Dad, and and I'm
on I'm on Channel five TV tomorrow morning, and and
uh they wanted to take a look at me.

Speaker 2 (26:27):
So my dad said, oh, he said, okay, We'll do
are TV. And and the promoter name was Jerry Jared
and he was and he was, uh man, he was.
I met him and he said, well, he said, well,
I understand Larry Lawler has put you over like uh
tonne of bricks a man, and talk to you uh,

(26:51):
he said. Man, I'm just thrilled to see you. He said,
but I got you in the match on TV, and uh,
I against Joela Duke, another big guy, and La Duke
was he was brown waving three hundred and fifty pounds guy.
You know that's the way they did it back in

(27:12):
the day. They So I went out there with Joela
Duke and on my Memphis TV Live now we wouldn't take.

Speaker 4 (27:22):
We was live, and man, I put La Duke over
like a million dollars big time. I'm talking about bump bump,
bump bump and all that stuff. And then Joli Duke
told me in the ring, he said, kid, please slam me,

(27:44):
Please slam me. I said, I told him no, He said, no,
please slam me, would you? I said, okay, So here's
this big joker, a little you know, as little as
I am and stuff like that. And I turned around
and when Joe went up, I kind of just.

Speaker 2 (28:07):
Turned him over with a big slam, and the people
popped like crazy and stuff like that. Man, and I
was jumping around like I was, Man, I'm telling you, like,
I don't won the World champions h the titles stuff
like that, And I was so I thought I was
in another football game, and you know, we just won
the tournament, you know, but so and Joe was just

(28:29):
so and he he came back after the actress over
because he went over and after the match he came
back and he just picked up. And of course Joe
Lawler was going like, Joe, what the heck Lynn slammy for?
And Joe turned around while he had me up in
the air, said, Jerry, I'm telling you right now, this

(28:51):
kid is awesome. You see the bumps that he was
taking for me. He said, Man, he put me over.
I had to do something for him. Wow.

Speaker 1 (29:03):
Well, and that's that's uh, that's a great part of
the business though. That's uh, you know that you're able
to put you know a lot of people don't understand
the psychology and and uh what really works in the ring,
and uh, you know that there is such an art
to doing it that they all understand. You know that
if you don't win, you didn't you know, you're not over,

(29:24):
and that's so wrong. And uh it sounds like early,
very early on, you understood that.

Speaker 2 (29:33):
You know what, I understood that from day one because
I looked at the size of my opponents and I
looked at the size of me and if I can tell,
I could tell, I said, uh, well, anybody could tell
that I won't have the I don't. There's no man
power for me beating this three hundred pounds guy. There

(29:54):
is no way.

Speaker 1 (29:55):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (29:56):
And the old saying always though, a good a good
little man can beat a a big man any day,
but a good little man cannot beat a good big man.

Speaker 1 (30:12):
Yeah, right, yeah, any day. I mean, it's gotta be Yeah,
it's gotta there's gotta be a reality to it, right,
I mean, it's.

Speaker 2 (30:21):
Got to be logical. Everything's got to be logical. And
if you and and you know what I'm saying, I
can beat a big guy, but I have to use uh,
Gim Jim Jim Duggans two before you know, I have
to use little hacks on two before to put to
put him out. And that that things I have to

(30:41):
get on top. That's the reason why I got on
top of the top rope and I was drop kicking
off the top rope and stuff like that, because it
was something logical that people can under can understood that, Hey.

Speaker 1 (30:55):
You had to have special weapons exactly to be able
to do And.

Speaker 2 (31:00):
That's what That's what made me. And then and I
stayed in Memphis for five years get the experience. If
I went anywhere else and I'm working up and down
the car, they had me the Yo Yo man A
first match, a main event first match, the main event,
bar war, fence matches, scaffold matches, rebuilds undie and stuff

(31:22):
like that. You know, just just uh, it was a
well we call this what uh this type of match
where don't see it happen no more. You were It's
a lumber jack lumberjack battle royal. You were where you
get thrown out a ring, everybody beat the heck out

(31:44):
of you, throw you back in the ring, and stuff
like that, a fire, a blind fold about Battle Royal
and stuff like that.

Speaker 1 (31:52):
I mean, all of this stuff, you know, and you're
working pretty much every day right through these They hired
me hard n w A and uh, you know, yeah
and everybody right.

Speaker 2 (32:05):
Yes, And then when I stayed there in Memphis for
five years, but I was I worked the territory for
five years, like Louisville, Kentucky, Memphis on the Monday, Louisville
on the Tuesday, Evansville, Indiana on a Wednesday. Lexington Kentucky
on a Thursday night, of Tuelo, Mississippi on a Friday night, uh,

(32:27):
Nashville or Jonesboro, Arkansas on a Saturday night. And then
then it starts all over again. So so we ran that,
We ran that, ran that, and then finally after five
years Jared Jared said, man, we need you need to
go around the country almost singing. I want to sing

(32:48):
you around around the around the globe where you go
to other places and and get some experience there and
then you come back. You're gonna be even hotter when
you come back with us.

Speaker 1 (32:59):
Yeah. They would do these territory exchanges. People, don't you
know that understand how it was back in the day
before Uh then you know the w w F basically
took over the entire world. But you'd have these territories
that divided up the country and you and you would
have promoters that would exchange different wrestlers, uh to you know,
they have a big run somewhere and then they let

(33:20):
things cool off, they go away what for six months
or something?

Speaker 2 (33:24):
So correct. Yeah, there you had, you had places to
go and uh and that was that was a good
thing because, like like you just said, you stayed six months,
you stayed a year or whatever and then uh, and
then you come back or whatever, Well, if you want
to come back, and so, but it was good. I

(33:45):
took off and I went to Tulsa, Oklahoma. I had
a good time out there in Tustle with the Leroy McGirt.
You remember, you remember Mike McGirt. Yeah, yeah, Well it
was hard to add. Was had the hole promotion out there, right,
and and uh and then I went from there. I
went to Dallas. Uh you know, I uh, it's a Dallas. No,

(34:09):
I went from there. I went to uh uh yeah, Dallas.
It was the Dallas. First. I'm trying to think. Now,
we went to Florida. We went to Florida.

Speaker 1 (34:21):
All these yeah, all these territories in there, and a
lot of people don't understand how how big they were,
but yeah, like Florida was huge, right. And then Texas
with the.

Speaker 2 (34:30):
NDA were down there with Eddie Graham was a promoter
down there, Anie Graham. But that's when Dusty Rose was
hot man, even with Rick Flair was running back and
forth in there and stuff. And then I then after
that we got a chance to go uh went up
to miss uh down to Texas, then Miss South. We

(34:50):
went to miss Out for Bill Watts and that's where
I got discovered right there from that's when I got
the phone call, uh for Howard Finkel called me, and
I thought it was a real I thought the guys
was was rid of me because I didn't believe it.
That's where nice was taken.

Speaker 1 (35:08):
Yeah, but when you were in mid South, because I
want to get to that phone call from Howard, but uh,
that was kind of the launching part for a lot
of guys. I mean I think you were there the
same like Jake was there, and Dibassi was there, Hacksaw
was there. Uh there was a great reellection of talent
with that yeah itself.

Speaker 2 (35:28):
Oh yeah, yeah. It was just it was just like Memphis.
You know, like a lot of people came through Memphis,
Rang the Savage and and a lot of guys. I
mean they came through Memphis to get you know, to
get started. And after a little Butcher and all that, man,
you know, Austin Idol came through there and uh you

(35:49):
know the funks. Yeah, you know.

Speaker 1 (35:52):
But I really thought it was interesting that it was
Howard that made that call to you, because I don't know,
I'd never really heard of other the other one people
that I know and other superstars that it was Howard
that called them. So, uh, tell us about how that
went down. And like you said, you thought they were ribbing.
You thought you're it was a rib right, Yeah.

Speaker 2 (36:13):
I thought it was a rib and stuff like that,
because the boys was always ribbon rib co Cover called
me up three or four o'clock in the morning, call
on getting down here and there's a big fight or whatever. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (36:25):
Uh no.

Speaker 2 (36:26):
When I got the call, man, I was at home
in Louisiana. In fact that I was. We pulled. I
pulled a trailer back in the day. Instead of getting
an apartment, I stayed in. We stayed in like a
little well, one of those little trailers that you pulled, yeah,
like a thirty five footer. And man, we stayed there,

(36:49):
went to the a campgrounds, uh and camp out there was,
which was real nice.

Speaker 1 (36:55):
Yeah, a way to stay bunny right oh the house
with you right right.

Speaker 2 (37:02):
And so Howard called me and and I'm going, hey, Cocho,
this is Howard Finkel from the w w S. I
got to say eto. They say no more.

Speaker 1 (37:13):
Uh, you can on this you can on this podcast.

Speaker 2 (37:16):
Go ahead, Okay, and so I'm going like, uh, I'm going.
I said, come on, get out of here.

Speaker 1 (37:24):
I said, this is Howard from the w w F.

Speaker 2 (37:29):
Yeah, there we go, and I'm going with you. Yeah. Right,
they would like for you to come up and talk
with him. You know, own business and there's always every
thing is on business, you know. But he didn't just
didn't say what. Just I knew what, but it was
always business. And uh, so I said, get out of here.

(37:52):
I said, why would he want to talk to me?
I said, come on, I said, no, I don't believe
this is this is how work. And I said, man,
y'all wouldn't call me, of all people, what do y'all
want with me?

Speaker 1 (38:06):
But you know, you were a pretty big time down
the mid South at that point, So why were you so.

Speaker 2 (38:12):
Bill watchs wasn't doing Bill wats wasn't doing anything with me?
I just had to name the birdman Coco beware, you know.
And then uh and so, so how was it. I'll
tell you what? Coco here? You have call idea? I said, yeah,
it's a it's a call me right back. Okay, it's

(38:33):
two two ody number, call me right back. So I said, okay,
he said, I haven't gonna hang up. I'm gonna wait
for your call. Call me right back. So I looked
on I looked on the actually have my wife looking
at the phone book and find an index or whatever.
What is the two O three air come? What are that?

(38:56):
You know? Oh that's Connecticut. Oh that Connecticut. And we're going.
I said, okay, I said, let me call him, let
me let me call let me try it again. And
he said, Howard Finkle Coco And I'm gone. And then
I'm going, Yeah, this is the real dealer now. And

(39:17):
so we got we got to talking and going on.
He said, man, he said, you know what we really
love yo yo yo, gimmick and everything. You'll you know
just what what you're selling down there, and you got
incredible moves and stuff like that. And Vince would love
for you to come up and y'all can talk business

(39:38):
where if you decide you want to make a move
a lot, he said, we we would just just just uh,
you can come up whenever, whenever you get a chance
on the open, when Bill has an open for you,
get you off. Let us know, we don't want to
we don't just want to run over run over him

(39:59):
anything like that.

Speaker 1 (40:00):
He said he was at this point.

Speaker 2 (40:04):
Yeah, So I went up there and I finally I
told Bill about it, and Bill just godly, he just
like hit the ceiling. He just because Jyd is already
gone and Vincent's got him and and he we already

(40:24):
had a meeting about that. W W is gonna be
contacting you guys and stuff like that, and and so
he said just be ready and all that stuff. So
when they contact me after after I had the meeting
with with Howard, and I told Bill and Bill all
he pulled out Rick carpet man. He wanted me to

(40:48):
come up to this real nice uh hotel. We had
dinner together and all this stuff. And I'm talking about
he's whining and dining me and and everything and and
and I told my said, well, Bill, uh, I've been
uh w Howard Thinker has called in. They won't they

(41:10):
want to talk to me about coming up. They're not
really gonna do anything with you and taking that now,
I mean, you waste the time and all that stuff.
And but uh, you know, they don't use small guys,
They just don't. I said, Bill, you're not using me either, Yeah,

(41:30):
I said, I'm not really, I'm not I'm not really
making any big money. I'm making okay money. But I
I hadn't been, I hadn't been in the main events
spots to make anything. I haven't seen a big check
like I saw off of Jacob snake check. I saw
Kamala's check and they was pretty decent.

Speaker 1 (41:51):
Yeah, so you're not. They're not. You're not making a
ton of money down there, right, so.

Speaker 2 (41:55):
Right, And that's what I was telling. I said, you know,
he said, well, you're differently not gonna make any money up.
They're gonna just do that. I'm gonna just kill you
off and then then you want to try to come
back here, then we won't be able to use you,
and anybody else won't.

Speaker 1 (42:08):
So he didn't the deal. He didn't say I'm gonna
pay you this much more to stick around.

Speaker 2 (42:13):
No, no he didn't. He never did sweeten the deal.
He just and then and then he just then he
finally told me, he said, you know what, he said,
go ahead and go if you know, if you want
to go, and just just go, but you know, just
you know, just give me a proper notice and stuff
like that. I said, I'm just going there to talk
to him and see what they they got to offer
me first. I said, then I'm gonna come back. I'm

(42:36):
gonna do the right thing for you, Bill, you know.
He said, yeah, I know, they're gonna they're gonna tell
you they're gonna do this, they're gonna do that when
they get you up there, They're not gonna they're gonna
beat you like a druma I said. I said, well,
I just want to I need to go, you know,
and see. And so finally when the opportunity came, I left,

(42:57):
went up there, got up there. Man, they met the guy.
The guy had a big sign up signed out j
W Ware, not Cocoa, were not Kobe Ware anything like.
That's just j W Ware and all that and big
old long live first long, first time I ever got

(43:17):
in a big long limo, I said, God, Lee, you know,
people people standing all around looking God, who is that guy?
Who is that? And I'll get off of this big
old limmo by myself, and golly, it looked like took
us forever to get from Newark to Jersey Airport to Connecticut.

Speaker 1 (43:38):
You know, it was just it does take from Newark
to Connecticut.

Speaker 2 (43:43):
I know it, I know it, man, right, I mean
at that day. It was it was just you know,
it was a hard I guess it was just that
dry time of the evening. Yeah. And then so we
finally got I finally got the to uh Vince's office.

(44:05):
Here's a big sign up w W you see the
big logo and all that stuff. So we go in
and then and then once once I stepped I stepped
off the elevator, of course, the little lady and she
she greet you there and stuff like that, welcome to
w W L and all that stuff, and say, would
you like anything to drink or whatever, coffee in the

(44:26):
count of juice or chips and anything. And I'm just
going out because I'm now I had butterflies in my
stomach again. Oh my god. And then and then when
I and when uh so, when I went in there,
I finally I sat out and I looked over there.
I looked across from me, and there was Kamala was

(44:53):
set over there, and I'm going into yeah, yeah, I'm
going I'm going one James, uh god, what are you
doing here all this? I'm just starting back up there.
I didn't know that was this second time. See he
was up there one time before then he quit and

(45:14):
left and he came back, and second he had a
meeting with Vincent himself. Oh yeah, and so, uh, I said,
God said so uh, James said, yeah, I'm I'm definitely
you know, I said, I got to see what he
got to say and stuff like that, because I thought
they were finished with me. And I went home and

(45:37):
I set out. I didn't even I didn't even they
didn't know where I was at. And so following, Vincent
and I was talking and fell out in Vincent's office
and they came and got me. So me and him
was talking, and uh. The last thing Vince said, you know,
of course, my wife had a picture of a bird

(45:59):
put in my pocket. She said that she took from
a pet store. And she said, if it's ever come up,
tell you want this bird. And because I had bird tights,
the bird was painted on my tights already and I
was already the bird man, Coco Coco, beware.

Speaker 1 (46:18):
But you'd never worked like birds before then, you never.

Speaker 2 (46:21):
I never worked with birds at all. And uh, and
so for some reason, after the conversation, uh, I walked
the off. I said, thank you very much, and all
that I would, uh, let me think about it. I'll
let you know, because Vincent, we don't. Don't give me
an answer now, you know, just go go back home

(46:43):
and think about it. Yeah, talk to your wife and
all that stuff.

Speaker 1 (46:47):
He liked the whole gimmick though. He liked you. He
likes you, yeah, he.

Speaker 2 (46:50):
Said, he loved the whole gimmick and everything he said.
And then uh. And I was walking away, and Vince
just coming around and just said Coco. And and I
mean he just hollered Coco, mm hmmm. And I turned
around and this said, is there anything else that you

(47:13):
would love to add to your gimmick? H Is there anything?
And I said, oh my god, what did he say
that for? I said, might of fact, Vince, I do
have one more thing. I reached in my shirt pocket
and flipped out this poor roar.

Speaker 1 (47:33):
Picture, a polaroid picture of the Frankie.

Speaker 2 (47:37):
Of the bird that I wanted to take it. That
was the Frankie, I mean, you know. And uh and
uh he said, uh huh. You want to take this
bird around, you know, anywhere you go? Yeah, I said,
if I can. He said, you know how much trouble

(47:58):
that is? I said, Evinced, this is part of me.
This is what's gonna make me to get up there.
It's gonna be beside Hunk Hogan and Andre the Giant
and everybody. You know, He said, God leave. He said, okay,
I would buy the bird for you. I would buy
you know, I would say. He said, I'll send a

(48:18):
guy down in Brazil to buy birds and bring it
back up here. You know anything, you know how to
train him? And I said, I don't know anything about
training a bird at all. I said, I just know
it would be good for my character, coming out with
the bird mankle with a live parent. He said, I
can't believe it. Now we have a dog, Now we

(48:41):
have a dragon, we have a snake, Now we have
that bird.

Speaker 1 (48:49):
Cook that that that is unbelievable. Do you you never
handled birds? You didn't have birds around the house. No, no, never,
get me get this bird.

Speaker 2 (48:58):
And you know I just had I just had picked
out this bird, this blue and gold Macall bird with
the big beak on it and everything, and I just
had it on my pants that down in Miss South
and everywhere else, just had it on my pants. And
then I said, this will be great if I and

(49:18):
then we came. Then my wife's God, it bless her heart.
She's gone on to heaven. She she she came up
with the music when Mars Day in the time when
they came out with the Birds have a brand new dance.
It's Collar Bird And Mars Day with me and her
went to a movie and he was doing on that

(49:40):
Purple rain. He was doing that song. Ya, he was
doing that song. And she said, you could, you could
take this dance. And of course she was a dance
teacher anyway with her cheerleaders, cheerleaders and stuff like that,
and she said, you could take this dance to the ring.
And then so we do, and add granddaddy, grandpa, all

(50:02):
of them can do it, you know, and it's so easy,
you know. And uh and I said, oh my god,
So I got let's just play the music and play incause.
See when when that song came out, he really didn't
push that song. Bars Day have didn't pushed that song.
He pushed Chunglelove with with that. That that song, the

(50:25):
bird Bird Bird song was on the very.

Speaker 1 (50:27):
It was on the last song of the album, right,
But did you have to get permission to use it?

Speaker 2 (50:33):
I mean, well after we did that, now, at first
we at first week, you know, they came out with
it and played it a couple of times. Then I
think the office got got a letter or something some
abouty you know, but true, right right. But see the

(50:54):
only thing they missed it they Mars Day Neil missed
their own self up on it. They could have they
could have made more, uh so more records off of it,
because people will starting to going to the mew store
buying it off just because I was doing it. Yeah,
and then they say, y'all gotta cut it out and

(51:15):
stuff like that. You know, we're gonna we're gonna crack
down on you and stuff like that. So that's why
I brought my gospel group in along with Jimmy Hart
that got the that wrote this song, uh another bird
Bird Bird song. Come on, everybody, get up off your feet,
put your hands together and do the bird man. Yeah

(51:36):
and so right. And so Jimmy, Jimmy, people know that
you were you can you can sing, yes, of course, yes,
singing singing in church, you know all my life and
stuff like playing the lead guitar, a little piano and
stuff like that. And uh, but well when we came
out with that, uh, there was Kocobe Wear a gospel

(51:59):
group at the time, and uh, man. Uh, that that's what.
That's what and and bars Damil couldn't say nothing because
they wouldn't they song. But it was a big hit
and the people could dance to it.

Speaker 1 (52:14):
They blew their shot, they blew their chance. So, but
before we talk about the you know, the serious side
of this, of how you were catapulted into the stratosphere
with the w w F I, I want to know
how the world you figure got to handle not only
just having Frankie around, but you had to travel with

(52:35):
him on the road, not only so what did you
take You know, birds are us, of course, did you
how did you learn to handle a bird that was
a big It was at a little parakeet. You're talking
this huge macaw, right.

Speaker 2 (52:51):
That's what it was. It took it took me a minute.
The first night they bought frank Frankie and the Baltimore Baltimore,
Maryland TV. Yeah, uh, pat Patterson and myself was in fact,
they brought it in wild in this cage. Pat Patterson
ourself was trying to get the bird out of the cage.

(53:12):
He wouldn't come out, he wouldn't come out, and he's
out and he's squalking and going on why why why?
And Pat going, Coco, you sure you want to do this?
I said, right right, I got I gotta do this, Pat,

(53:33):
he said, I said, this is part of my gimmick.
And he said, God, they just they just sent this
sting in from Brazil and this thing is wildless. Hey, Coco,
look at him fighting on the cage. He's chewing the
cage up. And so I said, so, Pat said, he's
not coming out, Coco, He's not coming out, And uh,

(53:54):
I said that what we're going, right, Pat, what we
what we're gonna have to do is we're gonna have
to dissemble the cage. So Ma and Pat sawt M
screwing all the screws and stuff like that.

Speaker 1 (54:06):
And we.

Speaker 2 (54:08):
Man all the screw from around the bird, right yeah,
just took took the little all cage away and then
and then we dissembled. And then of course the bird
didn't have no he couldn't he couldn't do nothing but
just standing there and look at us in the cage.
So so I'm going where.

Speaker 1 (54:27):
The wings clipped so it couldn't fly off in the arena.
That would have bet something.

Speaker 2 (54:31):
Well, at the time, we was in the back of
the dressing room all listeners was in the dressing room
first and then uh, so we I had to we
had to hold him down, uh try to try to.
I put a cowl over his head. I remember that
watching right. Oh, he's fifth big time, you know. So

(54:55):
I put a cowl over his head and stuff like that,
and and i' and we're trying to try to have
something I can't remember what was. Had something to hold
his head down because they gave us a while. They
gave us a chain to put around his legs so
he won't buy away. So I mean, I put this.

(55:16):
This is first time this ever. They have pictures of
this Baltimore. This is the first time I took Frankie
out with a chain on his legs first and last.
So we finally finally goes out, uh for the show here,
I got to I got Frankie. I got him. I

(55:38):
got Frankie in my hand, in my right hand, and
he's holding on He's biting my fingers and all that stuff.
And I'm still trying to do the bird Man dance
and not letting the people know that this bird is
biting the crap out of me and stuff. My fingers
was bleeding and going on and and golly, you know,
and I'm going I'll come back when we when the

(56:00):
match was over. It I don't even know if I
want anything like that. I didn't really care. I was
war it was getting back at trying to get back
and frankly, I was kind of pissed at frank as
a man. Hit me. You did this, you did that,
I said. And then Pat said, Coco, you sure you
want to do this because this bird look at your bleeding.
Oh my god, I said. And h I said, Pat,

(56:25):
it's gonna be be me or that bird in the morning.
You're gonna see me or him. I'm telling you right now.

Speaker 1 (56:34):
The boss by tomorrow, right right, I.

Speaker 2 (56:36):
Said, you know. So I finally took him after it
was all over with, got him in the hotel Sean.
I stayed up practically all night fooling with him, and
they had to fly out for the next morning.

Speaker 1 (56:51):
And uh, and in your arm and the whole thing, or.

Speaker 2 (56:55):
Yes, I'm working with, Frankie, I'm working with it didn't
have nothing to work with. So I finally I finally
uh got into uh. I think it was Buffalo. So
I went to a pet store and got books and
stuff like that, and I talked to some uh bird trainers,
was in the store. I said, how do you come?

(57:15):
How you how you come a bird down? He said,
do you read all? You gotta read everything in this
book to come down? And they said, and the guy
told him that Coco. He said, oh, he he didn't
know about Coco. He just said, here, you put this
book down. Go over there and gets two sticks. He said,
see these too, perch stick. He said, that's how you

(57:37):
train your bird. He said, you got you gotta, you gotta,
you gotta. You got a little stand that he sets on.
He said, get him off their stand by pushing. When
he stepped, pushed, put that stick up on his chest.
He'll step up like he's gonna let he don't want
to fall backwards. Either he gonna step up or he gonna.

Speaker 1 (57:58):
Fall back, okay.

Speaker 2 (58:01):
And so so he says, start rotating the sticks. And
what you're doing, you're playing games with him, and he
stepping up all the time. He stepping up as you
rotate the sticks. Once you're doing, you're getting him real tired.
So you can you can work with him in other words,
what we call blowing his ass up, you know. Wear

(58:27):
So when Frankie is all exhausted and everything, his little
tongue with someone else. I can see that, and you know,
and like, okay, all right, I had enough. I had enough.
And then and then I set him on the perch. Now,
now Frankie stepped up over on my hand. Now reach
out my hand. Oh man, he was just shawn. He

(58:47):
was just like like he was his clockwork. I mean,
he just stepped right up like he's been doing this
all the time. He stepped up on my fingers, on
my hand and stuff like that. Then he try to
bite him. I guess he's just the hell in to
bite me, you know, nothing less right, And I just
kept doing that every every day, kept ful, and and

(59:10):
then he's and the guy said, every time he's every
time he tried to uh uh snap on. You take
that stick and just stretching with the stick, and he'll
look at that stick and and oh my god, and
he and he and he'll come back down. Sometimes you
may have to just tap him on the beak with
the stick. No, and hardly know the same time. No,

(59:32):
don't do that. No, just kind of light tap, not hard,
you know, yeah, and uh and and he finally got
it and then and and then uh, he said, then
you could practice with him, open his cage up and
then let him go on the floor, let him walk
to his cage. He should go in. I said, if
you don't walk in his cage, show him the stick

(59:56):
and he'll he definitely go in the cage because he
you don't want to get hit. He thinks you're gonna
hit him.

Speaker 1 (01:00:03):
Oh, he's gonna head to the door, right.

Speaker 2 (01:00:06):
So so so we did. I did this, I mean
constantly every day for thirty minutes, every day for thirty minutes,
even at home. I mean almost got a divorced because
I'll spend more time with franknessing to.

Speaker 1 (01:00:21):
My wife, Well, you finally figured it out because uh,
I you know, I kept thinking, like, what how do
you train a bird? Not only to do that, but
then he's got to go out and there's thousands of
people around, all these distractions. But you did it. You
trained him because he did.

Speaker 2 (01:00:40):
And then I finally the guy did. I did clip
some of his wings and stuff like that. Uh, And
he finally because going out. I was so excited one
night in massive square garden. I was so excited going
going to get nicola vocol no no go and get
earned my sharp Oh my god. And you know how

(01:01:03):
crazy to earn my sharp where he had to walk
around the ring and he and he one night he
just count of went our here it is. I'm making
my great interests. First time in Master Square Garden. I
go around there there and earned my sharpers. Anyway, we

(01:01:23):
bumped some kind of way. Frankie fell off my finger.
Frank is over in the over in the over in
the on the front road with the fans. Oh my god.
I had to jump over the barricade and stuff like
that to go after, you know. And I think Bobby
Heene was making an ound. Oh my god, Ko Kobe

(01:01:43):
Waring has got its chasing Frankie. He's leaving the building.
Oh my god. He's all out there in the crowd,
you know. And so fella, I jumped back, yes, and
then then uh, I jumped back over barricade with Frankie
and and the people was laughing. Oh my god. Frankie
trying to escape from Coco, and Bobby he Din just

(01:02:06):
kept putting it over there, carell he don't want to
be with him. We had Frankie, he knows Coco is
a loser, you know, oh my god.

Speaker 1 (01:02:16):
And uh so we so we had that.

Speaker 2 (01:02:20):
That was that was really embarrassing that night first time
in massive square garden Frankie comes off with a finger.

Speaker 1 (01:02:26):
Yeah, but but Coco that that gimmick. I mean it,
you were over pretty much, uh right away. Uh, you
became an immediate favorite. I think it was because uh,
you know, like you said, you had the music, people
could get involved, and then you had you know, Frankie.
Uh so, I mean it it it must have made

(01:02:46):
that transition pretty a lot easier than it could have been,
just besides the fact that what you had to go
through with Frankie and almost lost a couple of fingers.
But really, uh was that the case? Did you feel?

Speaker 2 (01:02:58):
Uh?

Speaker 1 (01:02:59):
Did you think it was gonna be a little longer
or it just immediately popped?

Speaker 2 (01:03:05):
Well, you know what it was. I knew it was
gonna get over it because people loved it down here,
even with my wife because I mean, well she was
talking about it and it was just something different that uh,
the little guy, And that's what I had to offer.
If it wasn't for Frankie, I had to name and

(01:03:25):
if I didn't have that bird, I probably just would
have just been like everybody else, just on the card.
You know. That's reason why that people still remember me now.
And I don't care Sean. They if they go back
and showed us some tapes of me right now, people's
gonna remember that's kochobe Ware. Oh my god, I'm Frankie.

(01:03:46):
Oh my god, you know. And uh and and I
would love I would love for that to have one
one day that I could come back and go back
and and just and let the people around the world
see Frankie and I not the rastle. Yeah, I don't
want to wrestle. I just want to come out. I
want to look like like I got a million miles
in my pocket and and and just just look good

(01:04:09):
to the fans, you know.

Speaker 1 (01:04:10):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:04:10):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:04:11):
Oh, it's amazing they still remember, I'll tell you. Doing
this this podcast is just really amazed me about how,
you know, the people that remember that era, God, they
just remember every minute of it and they loved it
that it's it's something that has stayed with them throughout
their lives, and it's it's really it's just so awesome
when you go to these shows and meet these people

(01:04:32):
and I know it, you know, yeah, yeah, isn't it
go ahead. Uh no, but I was gonna kind of
moving on here because I really wanted to talk about,
you know, what you were able to accomplish in the ring.
And I think that early, I think it was like
eighty six you were on a Saturday Night's made event.

(01:04:52):
I think you wrestled Nikolai and yeah, Nicola Vo and
and that's when you know, uh, you know national television,
which you know during that period of time at night,
you know, primetime. Basically it was it really really launched.
I mean, the WWF was really starting to grow. But

(01:05:14):
once once we had that platform, do you remember how
much of an explosion as far as recognition went being
on something like Saturday Night's main event rather than even
the Saturday morning shows that we were doing that across
the country. But that seemed to really just launch it
to another level.

Speaker 2 (01:05:32):
Oh he did, you know? And uh and I'm telling
you that helped me packing. They helped the whole company
out and stuff like that. But it really, I could
speak for myself, it helped me out tremendously. And I
still take my head off to Nickel out lokof for
how he really did an outstanding job for me. And

(01:05:54):
he you know, what he didn't mean ripful about it.
Did hen't even sit there and no, I'm not gonna
do that. I'm not gonna do that. He loved it,
he said sure, And I went out there and I
put him over big time and and stuff like that,
and he got his stuff in and h and and
and you know, matches like that shouldn't go along. And

(01:06:14):
it didn't go along because if it had went longer,
then the people would have probably just parted at it
because it just it just don't match Nikolash's ben. Uh
just chewed me up and spit me out like I
was yesterday garbage, right, So you know, if.

Speaker 1 (01:06:35):
That really seemed to uh, you know, you became a
big part of like we talked about some of the
superstars that were part of those that roster during that time,
and there weren't a whole lot of people that were
that made it to that elite level, but you were
up above, you know, you were one of those main carters,
uh that you know, that would have these great you know,

(01:06:56):
say even if it was a mid card match though
you were up against another big name superstar.

Speaker 2 (01:07:02):
A big I mean a big guy that called himself
a big Russian that they that they have pushed and
made money with what I'm saying with with Hogan and
and and and Nikola I was a main eventor I mean,
I mean he was a big Russian there one time.
The Russians they were strong in the w W E
back back then.

Speaker 1 (01:07:22):
Yeah, well and then, but but that's why it was on.
When you were on the road and when you did
these televisions and when you did you know, these other events,
you were part of that mix, which was an awesome
ride during that period. Uh. When you look back and
we can certainly go and through and talk about all
these different events you were part of, Coco, but uh,

(01:07:42):
WrestleMania three has got to stand out to you as uh,
you know one of the biggest moments for you. Would
you say that that that event really stands out.

Speaker 2 (01:07:54):
Event? You know what that that still stands out to
me even right now, the chips, the goosebumps on my hand,
on my arms coming out right now, just every time
I think about it, and every time I look, I
have a picture in my wallet and sometime I pull
it out and just just I'm telling him, just incredible moments.

(01:08:17):
I mean, just that's something I never never forget that Sean,
that here was that. Like I was telling you at
the beginning of I was at the story. I was
just h this is something I wanted to do as
a kid, being a professional wrestler, and God made it happen.
And here he is. He took this little black boy

(01:08:40):
and Sean, he put him in the ring. He made it.
He he just let up so many thousand, ninety three
thousand people that he wrestled in front of ninety three
thousand people. And coming from a little small town with
a little hit town of Union, Any Tennessee that I

(01:09:01):
love so much. That man put me up there with
all the best entertainers there were in the world. Outstanding.
I mean National TV they saw me coming down. I mean,
what it What a thrill? What a thrill? Thrill? Man,

(01:09:21):
I'm excited now. Just I just counter tears coming out
of my eyes a little bit now because man, there
was It was the greatest moment of my life. And
I just thank God. I thank my parents, I thank
all my resting fans. I thank them all for for
I you think the w we for you just give
me that opportunity for to be out there, man, just

(01:09:45):
to be out there and and coming from a little
small town man that uh in the city where you
had to throw it try to find it on the
map with a magnifying glass and stuff like that. But
you know what it was still this poor little blackfellow
man made it to the big time of wrestling and
made it to.

Speaker 1 (01:10:06):
The to that Uh yeah, I mean they're really the pinnacle.
And when you talk Coco about you, you know, you
mentioned going to this I don't know what it was,
a V F W Hall or something, and they had
this place, you know, packed with two thousand people. And
then you're standing uh in the Pontiac Silverdome with ninety
three thousand people. Uh not just you know, not just

(01:10:29):
looking back at you know, like where you came from,
but also where this profession had had, you know, had
what it had reached. At that point, it was one
of the you know, the biggest, one of the biggest
entertainment spectacles in the world.

Speaker 2 (01:10:44):
Right to be a part of it, and back then
it was like one of the biggest event, the biggest event,
especially indoor event that that ever happened. But you know,
I think that some of them beat I they have
beat the record now. But uh, but but it's still
you know, it's just that thrill though, though, Sean, it's

(01:11:05):
that thrill man that I I uh, I praised that.
I praised that. Uh that raffle Maan three. I can
see it right now. When we pulled up on that
big old and on those to all these big buses
that we that we had. When we pulled up on
the ground, people was laying around and they was all

(01:11:27):
camped out around the ground and stuff like that. I mean,
it was just it was I thought, you I thought
we was over in Vietnam where a lot of dead
bodies were laying around with so many people, but they
were just sitting waiting on And I was saying, look
at the people waiting on us, Look at the people

(01:11:48):
waiting on us to come in, Thank God, Lee. And
my mind is going back all Union City, you know,
a little uh maybe fifty thousand popular people there, you know. Oh,
but you know, I'm just I'm just I was choked
up and everything. I just could not get myself together.

(01:12:09):
And uh and I watched this feel I watched the
mat and Butch read and I over and over and
over just the just the big old crowd and stuff
like that. And I said, man, I just I cherished
that moment, and I just I still have that with
this picture in my wallet right now that I take
out and I just look at it and just goll ye.

(01:12:31):
I said, you know what, Sean, and I tell you
the truth about it. Uh, the words come out where Hey,
I was so grateful being there. Yeah, And and I said, Sean,
if I only if I could have only made enough,
made a good payday out of it, I mean a good,
good payday out of it, and that that I wouldn't

(01:12:54):
have to maybe may not have to work so hard
that I'm doing now, But I you know.

Speaker 1 (01:13:00):
No, but it's a tough it is a it's a
tough business. And there's a lot of guys that, uh,
you know, didn't take good care of themselves either, and
they didn't save their money, and and uh, you know,
it was it was one of those things for some
of the big, the very top guys. They made they
did make a lot of money, but uh, you know,
a lot of the guys that were maybe mid card
and above that it wasn't you know there It was

(01:13:22):
certainly a good living, but uh, yeah, it.

Speaker 2 (01:13:25):
Was a good it was a good living. But you
know what I'm saying, but I wish I could have
made enough, made a big good, a good link. I
wish I was up there. I was up there with
a Hagan, I was up there with with with those guys.
But I make the money. Yeah, yeah, we're rand in
all of them. I'm gonna see the different what I'm

(01:13:48):
looking at, Sean. And I don't mind people knowing what
I made and stuff like that. And I I have
talked about the partner about it. Well, when you take
it's no, it's no big speaker now. I mean it's
just water on the bridge now. But it's still his
his history. And I still love the business. I still
love WWE and all that stuff anyway. Still, you know,

(01:14:11):
nothing bad I'm gonna say about them at all. But
you take, you take twenty thousand dollars and you split
it with you split twenty thousand dollars, gave me ten,
gave bush ree ten. Is that a good payoff?

Speaker 1 (01:14:27):
That was WrestleMania three? Yes, wow, yeah that's uh.

Speaker 2 (01:14:33):
And and you were some people say, oh that was good.
Where you're gonna make that count, But it's not like
where you're gonna make that amount of money at is
you're not gonna have these ninety three thousand people here
every every week.

Speaker 1 (01:14:48):
No exactly, but you know, and and people didn't realize
how hard you guys worked back then too, because it
was based on house gates. When you guys worked otherwise didn't.

Speaker 2 (01:15:00):
Get paid for Did I get paid for the pay
per view? And then till around you're gonna give a say,
Randy Savage of Steamboats five thousand apiece?

Speaker 1 (01:15:16):
Yeah, so it was you're saying it was a little
bit and balanced on some of these, uh, these main events.

Speaker 2 (01:15:20):
Yes, I thought it was this big time. I thought
I thought least you know whom gonna say this? I
thought least that, butch reed and I should have got
least forty thousand dollars. I would have been happy with thirty. Yeah,
the thirty thousand dollars a piece.

Speaker 1 (01:15:41):
Wow, that is that is kind of amazing. I'm telling Kurt,
I didn't realize because I knew I had heard figures
of what the big guys got in these in those Uh,
I didn't really know that. I mean that was you know,
it was a lower card match, but it was WrestleMania,
and there are only so many of them were on
that card. You know that's uh, and you know, and

(01:16:05):
I just and that's but you know, but that but
I had to take it.

Speaker 2 (01:16:11):
I had to take it. Sean I couldn't. I couldn't refuse.
I couldn't. I couldn't argue going there and and fuss
about it because I wouldn't have a job. Yes, I
got fired of it. So that's the thing, you know,
I didn't like it. I didn't. I didn't like it.
Then I couldn't say nothing, and and nobody I couldn't
go ahead, didn't have nobody to go in there and

(01:16:32):
speak for me or speak for anybody about the payoffs
they would get rid of. You know, God, you know
they said something bout of union one time and then
and then they got a window it said anybody else
mentioned anything about a union, it is fired. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:16:49):
Yeah, And and you know, and and you're you're an
independent contractor. You were you know, it's not like you
belonged to a union. It's not like you have you know,
you're a staff employee. You're an inde pen of contractor.
In those contracts. You know, we weren't really what it
protected one side of that basically, but it was a
where that period of time, though, you were among the
top superstars. And I want to move on to a topic,

(01:17:11):
and he's probably one you don't like to talk a
lot about, but I want to mention it because I
want people to understand how you overcome things and how
you moved on, you kept pressed on and you overcome it.
And that incident you were fired at night in eighty nine.

(01:17:32):
And I remember at the time, I was there Cocoa
when I heard about this, with this fight with that
you had over there with Jim Troy, and I knew
who the guy was because he had worked for Vince
up in Cape in the Cape when he had that
arena up there in hockey whatever. I don't know how
much you want to talk about, but I wanted to
ask you, though, is you know how you got through that.

(01:17:55):
I know that it was an incident that was certainly
sparked by this guy.

Speaker 2 (01:18:01):
Uh and Uh.

Speaker 1 (01:18:04):
Anyway, I'll just tell me what you want to tell
me about it. Well, European Tour.

Speaker 2 (01:18:14):
I'm gonna I'm gonna tell you the truth, and I'm
gonna I'm not gonna sit there in life for Jim.
I'm not gonna sit here in life for myself. I'm
gonna tell you this is the true story of everything. Uh.
First of all, Cogan was having trouble out of Jim

(01:18:34):
over there. Okay, at times they had an argument back
and forth. Okay, that night we was down in a
little bar. I was over there playing the piano. I

(01:18:55):
was playing the piano and just and folks were just
loving to me playing and you know, young ladies and
guys was around, and I was just over there playing away.
And then at the bar it was Jim Troy, Shun,
Michaels and another referee I can't remember his name. Well,

(01:19:17):
Troy and and and and Michaels got into it. The
people was all moving the tables out of the way
and stuff like that. And and then the lady ran
over to me, to Coco, can you mind going over there.
Your buddies getting ready to fight? Can you stop them?

(01:19:40):
You know, we don't know how to do this. We
don't know nothing about that, you know. So I went up,
so I just stopped playing the piano. At meantime, when
I went over there, well, Jim Troy was all in
Seawn Michael's face. Well, they was in each other's face,
speaking back and forth of each other. And going on,

(01:20:00):
and Troy was just going crazy out. Uh, I just
won't ever forget in this exact words. So excuse me
if I if I if I say something. Tray was going,
I don't know what I fuckings round you fucking wrestlers,
y'all make me so fucking sick. You know what, I

(01:20:21):
got a babysit, y'all fucking ass This mac man pays
me a lot of fucking money. The baby sit you
phony ass fucking wrestlers, And you know, yes, yes, you know.
And going on he said, y'all don't have no fucking
guts to do nothing. You know that. You know, I

(01:20:42):
gotta I gotta walk y'all around here like fucking babies
and ship like that, you know.

Speaker 1 (01:20:48):
And so he goes on that tour anyway, he wasn't
he wasn't an agent. How did he end up going there? Anyway?

Speaker 2 (01:20:57):
I have no idea. And then finally when they and
he said, yeah, you know the part that he had
his finger pointed, charl Michael's spitting fake. You don't have
no fucking guts to do nothing, you phoney ass fucking wrestlers.
I'm a hockey player, I'm a lot tougher. You fucking wrestlers,

(01:21:17):
so exact words now, I'm telling you, I'm not lying
on it. And uh and so son Michaels was was
was was talking back for him and stuff like that,
and he told referee get the fuck out of this building. Now,
get out of the bar, yunt go and that that
referee man, he he ran like crazy because the hotel

(01:21:40):
was just up the hill. Yeah, and uh, of course
he was. He was pushing Michaels around and all that stuff.
And and so I came over. I said, come on, guys,
let's let's don't do that in me up here. Let's
don't do that in front of these people here. Man,
we're gonna get it. You guys are gonna get in trouble.
Come on. Troy looked at me and said, oh, here's

(01:22:05):
another thad fucking wrestler. Then miss him. He's got any
fucking balls, because that's fucking punk. Want to fight. He
won't do nothing. He haul off and slapped me.

Speaker 1 (01:22:17):
Whoa yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:22:20):
And when he did that, I said, oh, well, you
got a wrestler. Now he's getting ready to knock the
hell out of you. And I'm a sean. I still
have the mark on my left palm of my hand
right now where I I hit him so hard. I
went down and and and and the beer bottle was cracked,

(01:22:42):
fell on the floor and busted, and I cut my
hands my palm of my hand right now, you know,
right then, and then I still have the mark to
uh to show for it. So here he is, I'm
you know now, I'm now on. I am Montroy. I
am whooping his ass betimes. So he finally finally he

(01:23:06):
gets up. He runs out of the bar. I'm bleeding
like a damn stuck hog. Then and then I jumped,
and the Troy jumps into a taxi. I'm chasing the
damn taxi up the hill. So I chased her. I
read her all the way up the hill, and I
kind of stopped, and the taxing Troy and then they

(01:23:27):
went on. So I went inside the hotel and uh
I uh. I called Marty, Marty Jeannetti. I said, Marty.
I finally got hold to Marty. I said, come down
to the lobby, Marty, come down to the lobby, and
I said, then at Jim Troy was jumping on Sean,

(01:23:48):
and Sean wouldn't even fight back or do nothing. Whatever
I'm talking about. He spitting all that Sean's face, shoving
on him and everything. And Marty, Marty would asked him
the clerk there at the hotel, where's Jim Troy's keys
at the hotel? So he didn't move fast enough. Marty
jumped over behind the desk, just jumped over and was

(01:24:11):
helping the guy to find the keys. Where's the damn
keys at? Where's the keys at? Uh? And he finally
got found the keys and me and Marty went to
Jim Tory's room, opened opened his door, and Marty just
took everything in the Jim Troy's room and just tore
it up, lamped everything, just closed. When he said when

(01:24:33):
he comes back, he said, it's his place. Was gonna
be in a wreck. And then then Marty came. Marty
came back up. We well, we came back up to
the lobby. And of course this lobby was where you
had the reception, the clerk's desk, and then you had
to you had a kitchen to it right where you

(01:24:54):
can you can check in and then you just walk
down a little bit there's a breakfast room and stuff like.
So me and Marty we was sitting in the lobby
and and uh, guess who came in the door. Jim Troy.
Oh Man. When Jim Troy came through the door, I said, Troy,
it's not over yet, man, and me and him got

(01:25:17):
the fighting right there in the kitchen. Right there in
the kitchen I'm talking about. I knocked out, knocked Troy
over some tables everything. When I got him down, I
just stand on and I punched him and punched him
and punched him and punched him to uh, Sean, I
knocked him completely out. I knocked him completely out.

Speaker 1 (01:25:40):
You pretty much lost it at this point when you.

Speaker 5 (01:25:44):
Pretty much lost it? Yes, I pretty much lost it.
And then Sean Michael's turned around. Here come here, come
here comes Sean Michaels through the door. And then Marty
turned around and slapped, slapped, slapped the hell out of shun.

Speaker 2 (01:25:57):
Uh three or four times from not fighting back back mh.
And So the next morning, so no no waiting, man
back up, So down I go to my room.

Speaker 1 (01:26:09):
And why did he say he didn't he didn't go
after Oh, I don't know he was.

Speaker 2 (01:26:14):
Marty was just on his butt. Marty is from and
Sean didn't want he didn't even want to talk to me.
He didn't want to talk about it no more because
he knew. He knew I fought. I fought that for it.
I fought his fault, you know, his fight for it.
And so so here it is. Uh so we get,

(01:26:35):
I get, I go back to my hotel. That my
room that night. So I called back up through the front.
Guess I said, K. I said, do you have a
doctor on hand? He finally got me a doctor that
came there and sold my farm of my hand up,
sold it up and uh, he said, no, don't movie.

(01:26:58):
He put it for the break, sawd it where I
could bend my fingers and nothing like that. And he
said you got to keep this on because you might
lose his finger if he don't. He said, you tender.
You almost lost you lost your finger. Wow and and
uh and uh so I still see I still see
it right now, but it's not as bad. But uh

(01:27:21):
and he's but he swed me up in the room.
The next morning, got up.

Speaker 1 (01:27:27):
Uh.

Speaker 2 (01:27:28):
Pat Patterson called me. He said, Coco Lee, what happened
last night? I told Pat the same thing. He said,
have you seen Jim Troy? I said no, Pat, I said,
U he cast all of this. He calls everything Pat.

(01:27:51):
Pat said, Coco, Oh my god, he you blacked both
of his eyes and all that stuff. He said, Man,
he is so swollen, it's unbelievable. I said, well, Pat,
he calls for I mean, I couldn't. He slided me
around and all that stuff. Pat, And I said, I
it wasn't my fight. It was him and Sewn Michaels.

(01:28:13):
I went over and trying to break him up Patt,
and he turned around and slide in. He said, home,
my god, he said, Vincent is sending him home. But
he got to wait for his wife to come over.
She just landing getting off the plane to meet him
over here. And she got to turn around and go
back home, man, because Vincent told him to go home.
So that night in Paris, so we take the bus ride.

(01:28:36):
So that night in Paris, Terry Garvin coms oversus Coco
Vinces on the phone. He wants to talk to you.
I said, okay, So Vincecuits on the phone. HOOKO, what
the fuck is wrong with you? Fucking beating up my
fucking executive and all that fucking shit. I can't fuck

(01:28:58):
you believe it. What the fuck is wrong with you?
You know, he said, what I want you to do?
I want you to thank your pack your goddamn bags,
the exact words, pack your goddamn bags, and go home,
Go home, just go fucking home. I done sent Troy

(01:29:19):
home and all that stuff. I said, wait a minute, Evinces,
don't you hey, don't you want to hear my story?
I said, don't you want to hear my story? Events?
I ain't got pissed off for him too, I said,
don't you want to hear my story? I said, first
of all, I told Hi him. I said, your executive
came up and I said, it wasn't my fight. I
was playing the piano him and Sean Michael was into it.

(01:29:42):
He was on the slapping on Sean, and I told him,
y'all stop it. Then he gonna turn around and slap me.
What I was supposed to do? Vince, tell me what
I was supposed to do? Well, you didn't have nothing
to just beating the goddamn the hell out of it
and then all that, And he said, that's why I
send him home, because I can't help my executive wants
to be a wrestler. I can't have a wrestler wants

(01:30:04):
to be wants to beat my executive's ass and stuff
like that. I said, well, your executive is he the
one called for a Vince? I'm telling you now. He
stopped me. I said, Vince, if I slapped you, Vince
right now, if I slapped you, what you're gonna do, Vince,
what you're gonna do to me? You're gonna Oh, You're

(01:30:25):
gonna be like Jesus Christ, turned your other cheek. Vincent Coko,
Just go home, Just fucking go home. That's the only
thing he could say. H Well, I talked to Hogan,
called Hogan up, told him, Terry, I guess I'm fired.

(01:30:45):
Events want me to go home and all that stuff. Course,
I beat the men. Troy got into it and it
wasn't my fight. I mean, he slapped me. And then
Haulk said, I'll tell you what. I'll get you back.
Don't you worry. Ound you're coming back. I'm gonna talk
to Vince. If you don't come back, I'm gonna quit.

Speaker 1 (01:31:04):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (01:31:05):
That's what Hogan called me and told me. He said,
if he don't bring you back, I'm going to quit.
And so, uh, he brought me back and he kept
me around for a little while and then Uh, he
came out with some what came up with, told the

(01:31:27):
guys he got the switch talent. You know, we're gonna
bring in some new faces and all that stuff. And
right there that night in Madison Square Garden, they was
passing out booking sheets. And this was about four or
five months down the road, and uh, my name wasn't
on the booker sheet. So I went in there to

(01:31:50):
his room. I said, Vince, I said, somebody print him.
Did somebody make a mistake and not have me? I'm
not booked on both At that time, we was running
two towns a night, a day or whatever. I said,
I'm not booked on either town. He said, what's the matter.
I said, what's the matter? He said, well, Coco, I

(01:32:12):
got it. I got to weave some of you guys out,
and uh, you just happen to be one of them,
and stuff like that, and it's some more gonna be
weaved out and all that. I said, events without a notice.
Remember you think it was everybody you give me two
weeks notices. I give you two weeks notice. Business, you know, Coco,
I'm sorry, you know business and business. You know, I'm

(01:32:35):
just just just just you know, this way this way,
I'm doing it. So he when I left, that's how
I left w W. I think it was like ninety
three or whatever, without a notice anything, just completely cut
dry cure.

Speaker 1 (01:32:52):
Yeah. Well, and you know that's that's unfortunately, that's the
nature of the business.

Speaker 2 (01:32:58):
But you you had that's what he said exactly See
their son, you just said exactly what Vince McMahon said. Yes,
your sound just like him. I think it must have
been Vince McMahon. I think you you you you must
have a little part of Vince McMahon. And you for
saying that called some man you said you could say

(01:33:20):
any better. Wow.

Speaker 1 (01:33:22):
But the thing is Coco, it is it's it's it's
cut throat. It is like I said, the rest of
it's their independent contractors, and they when they use you
up then they just say okay, the doors closed and
they bring you back.

Speaker 2 (01:33:39):
Yes, I'll understand that. But also he gives you. He
gave you this little contract and he said, hey, for
us to leave, it's good to give two weeks notice,
and we give you two weeks Nodus. It is saying
we don't have to give you two weeks. Yeah, So
you know what, but it is his bottle games. So

(01:34:01):
he played, he made he made the rules up as
they go.

Speaker 1 (01:34:06):
Yeah. But but during that time when you Camett, it
was like eighty nine ninety whatever. But uh one, one
good part about that time was that you teamed up
with Owen Heart, and I know that he was somebody
that you got close with.

Speaker 2 (01:34:24):
Yeah, I got close with with with on what happened,
Jim Knightheart messed up was messing up of the they're
tagging for some reason. I guess you know. They he
wasn't showing up at the shows or Southern but they
was telling me and all that stuff. And then, golly God,

(01:34:47):
bless his heart. Bobby Heenen. He he the one created
the high high energy. Yeah, he came up with with
the high energy and stuff like that. And I'm the
one came up with the bagging. You know, after they
they gave us some big baggy pants. Of course on
hard and Nighthall is warning the bagging fans with the

(01:35:08):
checkerboards don't and uh so, uh I would. I would
just make it make it more interesting. I thought that
more show them just whatever. When on herd attack me,
I come in, raise my tights all the way up
to my chest and like I'm more, I'm really I'm

(01:35:30):
really doing something like it was just like Jeredy King
Walla pulling strap down, I'm pulling my tights up. Yeah yeah,
And so for that got over real real good. I
mean the people loved it. In fact, you know what
we did. You know, we were the first black.

Speaker 1 (01:35:46):
And white you know right, you know tag tag team together.

Speaker 2 (01:35:52):
Yeah, we was the first. We was the first black
and white in w W E.

Speaker 1 (01:36:01):
Uh No, Coco and I. We didn't really get a
chance to talk about this a whole lot, but you
know when you came up, Uh what was it like
in the business for a black man? And and was
there uh was it difficult? Did you do you were there,
you know, blatant you know, experience of racism or was

(01:36:25):
was it different? Did you really feel like that you
were you know, if you could do what you did
in the ring, you were treated fairly or was it not?
Was it not balanced?

Speaker 2 (01:36:35):
Well? I just you know what, I'm sure there was
it was racial back then, but I didn't never I
never did see that charn because I wanted I wanted
to be that superstar. I wasn't looking at it. They
used me cause I was black and all that stuff.
I won't use me calls. I had that talent you know,

(01:36:57):
to draw money, you know, and stuff like that, and
and I was I was more hungry. I never you know,
I have I've heard guys say something about that, you know, uh,
but I never, you know. And and I'm sure, I'm
sure it was like anything else that it went on.
Some some white didn't like cocobe ware, and there might

(01:37:21):
be some white I didn't like them. And then and
there were some blacks that I didn't like, and there
were some black like me. So I mean, but I
I just didn't sit there and get molded to that
attitude of that racial where they used to be because
because I'm black. Well, number one, wrestling is a white

(01:37:42):
man's sports anyway, m hm. And then we started out
and and uh, but we have we have we have
talent there that have turned a lot of black guys.
I mean a lot of black talents have really turned
wrestling around, you know. They they it's always been a
white man's sports. And they and but they they never

(01:38:05):
have had two many black guys on the card. They've
just been the nature of business. I don't know, I
don't mean again, I say that, but it just it
never have you know, world champions, how many world champions?
You know?

Speaker 1 (01:38:23):
But do you feel that? And it sounds like at
least along the way, I mean, you know, Lawlor didn't
seem to he looked at your talent. It had nothing
to do with color, right, And you know what I
want to say these other guys and whether or not
they had their own personal feelings whatever it was, but
it seemed that if you were good, then you were

(01:38:44):
going to you're going to do well. I mean, jyd
was was was gigantic in mid South? Uh, you know,
and do you feel that it was It's a profession
that really if you had the talent, it didn't matter.

Speaker 2 (01:39:00):
Well, you know what, they they never have told me
that I never won. I'm saying. They never have came
out said we don't we're not uh we're not using
black wrestlers. Mm we That never was told me. Yeah,
I'm talking about I don't care. We no, we don't.

(01:39:23):
We don't want any we don't want any black on
the card. Now, I don't know what they're saying in
their private meetings, m because I wasn't in there.

Speaker 1 (01:39:34):
But you never say you blatantly experienced it. Right, Okay, Uh,
but do you feel though, and and uh, you know
you look back, We're talking decades. Uh, do you feel
that in some ways you were among those who blazed
the trail for for uh, you know, blacks in this business,

(01:39:54):
for black Americans as you like to refer to yourself as.

Speaker 2 (01:39:57):
Uh.

Speaker 1 (01:39:59):
I mean, are you proud of that?

Speaker 2 (01:40:02):
I'm proud of what I did.

Speaker 1 (01:40:04):
But I'm not brothers though, Coco. I mean, really, like
you said, there wasn't there weren't a lot of a
lot of Black Americans in in professional wrestling, and you
came up through a very difficult time when when this
business was you know, changing dramatically. Uh. Right, do you

(01:40:25):
look back? I mean, and and you know, like I said,
are you're proud of that?

Speaker 2 (01:40:29):
That that?

Speaker 1 (01:40:31):
I'm sure there's a lot of these young men that
are in the business that come up and look at
what you did.

Speaker 2 (01:40:39):
Well, see, I was trying to set that role model.
I was trying to be the role model for everybody,
right and because I know if I got that opportunity,
they could get the same thing, and all they had
to do is get out there and work for it.

(01:40:59):
They saw something in me sean that that I felt that, hey,
this was part of my life. And and it just
looked like heart, my heart reaches the other heart God had,
the God had another heart in his heart. My heart

(01:41:22):
touched touched somebody else heart, somebody else heart. And and
and uh, that's and that's what That's what I that's
what I was just trying was was was trying to do.
First of all, I had to make sure I got myself,
you know, established, I had to. I had to set
the pace myself, and then I could reach out to

(01:41:45):
the young generation that's coming up. Not because I'm not
just saying the black generation. I'm coming out to white
and just a generation period. Yeah, because because I want
to be that. I want to be that Roman for
them and say a little man don't have a chance,
Yes he does too. It's what a little man's got

(01:42:07):
the offer? What does the little man have the offer?
You know, I'm not I'm not gonna get in the
ring with Andrea and Done and beat him with one,
two three in the middle ring. There's nowhere in the
world I'm gonna get in the ring with Andrea's giant
and let Andreas Done throw me all over play like

(01:42:27):
a sac of potatoes and stuff like that, and and
sit and take his big ass and set on him
and beat me one, two three. Yeah, you know, because
I'm the mosquita and Andrea is the giant. Right. But so.

Speaker 1 (01:42:47):
Yeah, but you could step in that ring.

Speaker 2 (01:42:49):
But I can step in that ring and give it,
give Andrea a hell of a matching people. People gonna
believe that that opportunitiy, I give Coco where the guts,
having the guts to step in the ring with him
and did what he did. Yeah, so that's you know what,

(01:43:09):
go ahead, I said. But that's that's that was. That
was my thinking every time I stepped in the ring,
you know, to entertain the people. Go out there and
and make it. Hey, this is my last match.

Speaker 1 (01:43:26):
And you know, uh, and Coca, you've had, I guess
you know, a contentious relationship with the WWE, some great
some not so great times. But in April of two
thousand and nine, you were inducted into the w W
Hall of Fame. What did that mean to you?

Speaker 2 (01:43:45):
Well, sir, it meant a whole lot to me. It
took him twenty years to do it, but you know what, hey,
I could couldn't say nothing. And uh, because I know
a lot of fans have sent me mail and stuff,
and they was praying, and they was calling in. If

(01:44:08):
they called in about the Hall of Fame, why come
you can't educt Coco Beware and why come you can't
do this? Put him in there and all that stuff,
him and Frankie and all that, and so you know,
it was a long time. I was. I was way overdue.
I should have been in there way before some of

(01:44:29):
the guys, even some of the guys in Memphis. I
should have been in there, wait for Jerry Lawler because
I was there before he was.

Speaker 1 (01:44:38):
Yeah, but you stood on that stage.

Speaker 2 (01:44:41):
But I'm still but I'm still on this state. But
I'm still on the stage exactly.

Speaker 1 (01:44:46):
And what did it mean to you when you stood
up there? What do you remember thinking, you know what?

Speaker 2 (01:44:52):
Just thinking about Union City, Tennessee, that I achieved everything
in life I achieved, talking about everything I did. I
set that goal out to be a professional wrestling. This
little black boy again. Here it is on a platform
on national TV, being crowned as a Hall of as

(01:45:16):
a w W Hall of Famer, And that just made
me feel so good and I and I just thanked
all my people back at home with the of the
people around the world again the w w uh thank you,
you got your nationals, shun all your announcers and everybody.
The Lance Russell Dave Brown, the one that put me over,

(01:45:37):
that that built be up to people that that didn't
know me the way y'all talk. Hey, he's incredible. You
all to see Kokob Wareing, Oh my god, you know
what and all of that, man was just that package
deal was just was just soaking in man. And I
will never forget that. And because uh, you got you

(01:45:57):
guy did it for me, and and and uh uh
and and then with and when I got that, when
I got crowned, I just said, man, it didn't it
didn't matter how many belts I had. It didn't. It
didn't matter no more. You could put me up there
with Michael Jordan, You put me up there with Larry Birds.

(01:46:17):
You could put me up there when with God, with
all those hall of famers, the rock and roll hall
of famers, the Country Western hall of famers, the Gospel
hall of famers. You put me up there with all
of them.

Speaker 1 (01:46:28):
Now, yeah, my name is up there with it. Yeah,
And you think about really the thousands and thousands and
thousands of professional wrestlers. Uh, there are not thousands of
the w W Hall of Fame, and it's only the
best of the best, and uh right, and Coco, you
did it. You know you did it, and it's and
you know and I and I love that, Sean.

Speaker 2 (01:46:51):
But the thing I wish, Sean, I wish I wish
w w EE could go back and get there's a
lot of good wrestlings, great wrestlers out there that deserve
to be in the Hall of Fame. Bring the announcers
out there, like yourself, deserve to be in the Hall
of Fame and and need to be crowned. You definitely

(01:47:14):
need to be crowned instead of just getting anybody like
Mike tyson us in a snoop dog and stuff like that.
They have no business in the Wrestling Hall of Fame.
They don't care nothing about by wrestling. They guess paying
the money. They maybe a good car car draw they
can draw money, car draw drawer. I can't even get

(01:47:37):
it together now. I'm so excited. But you know, you
put them on the car. It's fine. But but we're
talking about wrestlers out there that that blood, sweat and
tears that that made him made his business, you know. Uh,
I mean that thestead of using Snoop Dogg and and
and Mike Tysons and stuff like that and p Rose,

(01:48:00):
they don't put us in the into uh in their
hall of fame.

Speaker 1 (01:48:04):
Yeah you know the dog Yeah yeah, but the w
w's they got time to get it right. But uh, Coco,
I'm glad you're in there because you certainly deserve to
be there. And uh oh yeah, it's really been great
catching up to you.

Speaker 2 (01:48:18):
Uh.

Speaker 1 (01:48:18):
I know you do some appearances, but you know, Coca,
we got a lot of people who listen to this
podcast who uh I would love to get in touch
with you. What's the best way that people can reach you.
I don't know if you've got you do Twitter or
do you have an email? How can people reach you?
Like to have you do appearances too?

Speaker 2 (01:48:39):
Just I don't I'm really I don't shout out. I
don't really try to do email and stuff like that.
I just, I mean, I just kind of stay away
from it. I'm just old school. I just I let
my kids do all that for me and stuff like that,
and uh but most of it all I work with
the young generation. Of of of the wrestlers all around

(01:49:02):
the world and and that, and that's that's just part
of it.

Speaker 1 (01:49:07):
You know.

Speaker 2 (01:49:07):
It's just I really really appreciate you giving me this
opportunity to to you know, to talk to the wrestling fans,
because a lot of them don't They want to know
what happened to Cocho be Ware and he's still around
or stuff like that, where Frankie and all that stuff.

Speaker 1 (01:49:24):
You know, Uh, it was what happened to Frankie, just
because I know people do wonder. I know he lived
for a long time.

Speaker 2 (01:49:30):
Yeah, he lived for a long time. It's just it's just, uh,
one Sunday afternoon, my house that we was renting caught
a fire and Frankie was at home and and the
and the house burned and stuff like that. Yeah, and
so you know, but I have Frankie Jr. Out though

(01:49:52):
I have Frankie Jr. He's a common copy of Frankie.
You won't know the difference. And I just sure have
said I still have Frankie because this Frankie Jr. That
I have, he is so tained I'm talking about he
he's more attained than a Frankie senior.

Speaker 1 (01:50:08):
Yeahs live a long time, right.

Speaker 2 (01:50:10):
Well, they'll live to be one hundred years old. You
have to put them in your will.

Speaker 1 (01:50:15):
Like the tortoises that get Yeah, and you know so,
but but it was, it was, it was.

Speaker 2 (01:50:21):
It's most definitely good too to be on your be
on your on this here Sean on your show and stuff. Man, God,
I hadn't you know what I tell him somebody about you?
I said, Man, I hadn't talked to Sean Moody in
so long, golly and and and they got to said,
well I have is now, I said, I try to
call you, I think when we was in somewhere in

(01:50:42):
New Jersey leave and man, you know so, Uh, I
just really take my hat off to you and and
and God bless you and your family and and man,
I'm just you know, I just want to say to
to the to the world, uh, thank you all again.
Even with even WWE. I mean, I don't I don't

(01:51:04):
hate you. I don't like the things some of the
things that you don't do for us and stuff like that,
but I don't hate you. I love you to death
and I'm not I'll never say nothing bad about uh
WWE at all, because you know, I'm telling you they
still I would love to go back there. We'll just
one one time and be with the new day. And

(01:51:24):
can you imagine Coco Beware with the New Day along
with Franking.

Speaker 1 (01:51:29):
Oh my god, may have the storyline all worked out, guys.
So all right, my friend, I am so glad that
we got a chance to catch up. I'd love it.
I'm going to have you back, I hope down the road.
But let's stay in touch.

Speaker 2 (01:51:42):
But it's all right, Seawan, thank you brother.

Speaker 1 (01:51:45):
All right, Coco, take care. Wow, a great conversation with
Coco Beware. I have to tell you I did not
expect him to go into such detail on some of
those questions I asked him, But he is one candid individual,
and really I loved hearing some of those stories. A
lot of those details I'd even forgotten about. It was
awesome hearing from Coco Beware, a hall of famer with

(01:52:08):
the WWE, We've got our t's. You've got to check
out the t's at Pro Wrestling T's dot com. Get
your Sean Mooney who t shirt, the Ding Ding Ding
or of course the show logo. So check out Pro
Wrestling Teas dot com. Then search Primetime with Sean Mooney
and check out those shirts. We'd love to have you

(01:52:29):
purchase a few of those. You can contact Remember we're
doing the bonus show, so email me at primetime at
MLW dot com and let us know what you'd like
to have included in that bonus program. And like us
on Facebook. Remember going to give away that DVD, So

(01:52:49):
get to it, folks. That's going to do it for
this week. Thanks for listening. I'll talk to you next
time I'm out.

Speaker 2 (01:53:00):
Umuh

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Koko B. Ware Tells All – From Memphis to the Birdman Legacy: Prime Time Vault

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Koko B. Ware Tells All – From Memphis to the Birdman Legacy: Prime Time Vault