Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_02 (00:08):
Welcome back to Real Talk Community Health Care in
Action.
Today we are going to talk aboutcaring for our veterans, and
joining me for that will beFrontier Faculty Member and
Clinical Director for thePsychiatric Mental Health Nurse
Practitioner Program, Dr.
Susan Piper.
Dr.
Piper received a Master's ofScience in Nursing from Western
Kentucky University in 2010,emphasizing nursing education.
(00:31):
In 2016, she received apostmaster's certificate focused
on psychiatric mental health.
She received her Doctor ofNursing Practice degree from
Murray State University in 2018.
She has served 32 years in theKentucky National Guard and was
a chief nurse for the KentuckyNational Guard's mobile
vaccination team during theCOVID-19 pandemic.
(00:51):
And she continues to serve aschief nurse.
Later on, we'll be joined byHoward Whitehead.
Howard is the Post ServiceOfficer for Woodford Post 67 and
is a fully VA accreditedDepartment Veteran Service
Officer.
This means he has had andcontinues to receive training in
VA claim policies, procedures,and best practices in preparing
(01:13):
and filing claims and can submitpaperwork directly to the VA.
Dr.
Piper, thank you so much forjoining me.
SPEAKER_00 (01:21):
Thank you for having me.
SPEAKER_02 (01:23):
Can you first talk to me about your personal
experience and how that hasshaped your perspective of the
needs for veterans?
SPEAKER_00 (01:30):
Yes, so not only have I served myself and
continue to serve, I am a wifeof a veteran, I'm sister
veterans, three brothers, allthree of them served, as well as
my dad, so I'm a daughter of aveteran.
And I seen firsthand the impactof serving on those individuals,
(01:54):
and then how it impacts familymembers.
SPEAKER_02 (01:58):
Talk to me about why it's important to get our
veterans care, not just themental health care, but also the
physical health care.
SPEAKER_00 (02:05):
We owe our veterans a great debt for the sacrifice
that they've made.
And I feel as though this isjust like pennies towards
repaying that debt.
But for our veterans, theydeserve to be the healthiest
that they can be.
And so we need to focus onimproving both their physical
(02:31):
and their mental health care.
And sometimes that's related tothe care that they actually
receive, sometimes that'srelated to the ability to
receive that care.
SPEAKER_02 (02:42):
And so, as community members and family members, what
can we look for in our veteransas signs that they need help for
something specific or just ingeneral?
SPEAKER_00 (02:53):
So physical needs are many times very apparent.
You know, maybe it's um a limp,maybe it's you notice um a
deficit in their movements insome way or a change in their
movements.
Um when it comes to um hearing,a lot of times that's easy to
(03:14):
identify.
But when we consider mentalhealth, um, sometimes that's a
little more challenging.
Um it may be that you noticethey become agitated more
easily.
It may be that um they are down,depressed, maybe um for
reference you notice thatthey're an Eeyore, or it may be
(03:37):
that you notice that maybe theyum avoid things, right?
Certain situations becausethat's causing them anxiety and
they don't want to face or beinvolved in those things because
of that.
SPEAKER_01 (03:50):
And how can we get them help then?
Or how can we help them?
SPEAKER_00 (03:55):
So um a big thing is, you know, this the stigma is
still there, right?
We have a stigma that we have tobattle related to getting um
care for our veterans,specifically mental health care.
Um, you know, you mentioned umHoward is gonna join this the
segment a little later.
(04:15):
Um that's an excellent resourcerelated to starting the process
for health care, mental healthcare.
Um it may be that we need tojust continue to show support
and be there for them.
Sometimes we have to advocate,right?
We have to stand in the gap.
Um, but the first step isusually the hardest.
SPEAKER_02 (04:37):
So you're talking about their people's mental
health.
What misperceptions do peoplehave about veterans' mental
health?
SPEAKER_00 (04:45):
So I you know misconceptions.
Sometimes, okay, so I I guess Iwas trying to think about how to
how to how to to go about that.
Because sometimes I don't thinkit's it's our misconception per
se, but the veterans, those thathave served, those that are
(05:12):
still serving, we push thatdown.
We don't always speak to thosethings, right?
Because that's what we weretold.
You know, you don't share.
If there's a problem, you know,you only seek help if it's
absolutely necessary.
So it may be that you see aveteran walking around, um, and
(05:35):
until you speak to them, you mayor interact with them, you may
not know that there's a problemor potentially a problem.
Um because we've been told tohide it, to not disclose that.
So I don't know that themisconception comes from the
(05:57):
person or if it's the veteranthemselves that's providing the
cloaking device, so to speak,you know, that's cloaking what
the problem, that the problem isthere.
I don't know, I don't know ifI'm expressing that exactly how
I'm wanting to.
SPEAKER_02 (06:12):
Well, tell me, let's say I have a sibling or a
brother and I'm concerned andI'm asking them they're hiding,
whatever, however they'refeeling, they're not sharing
their whole truth.
But I'm concerned about them.
What do I do?
What do you do?
SPEAKER_00 (06:29):
Right.
I think a a good place to startis telling them that it's gonna
be okay and that you're there,right?
That you're there when that whenthey are ready, and the
importance um and the need forgetting help.
(06:50):
Because how much better canthings potentially be if they
do?
And sometimes just knowing thatthey have that support, it's all
it takes.
SPEAKER_02 (07:02):
And sometimes by avoiding getting help for
certain situations, it causeslike a domino effect, right?
Oh, absolutely.
And and so how do you how do youbring that to light for them?
SPEAKER_00 (07:18):
Speaking truth, right?
Because just like um, you know,we we've heard so much about um
suicide and suicide amongst ourveterans, and you know, how do
we how what what do we what dowe do related to making a
difference there, right?
Um you have to just ask, youhave to say, you have to speak
(07:44):
the truth in what you're seeing.
So if you see that, lay thatout, but with kindness and
grace.
Because, you know, sometimeswhen you start to have those
conversations, the thing thatI've seen is the defense comes
up, right?
So immediately they go on thedefense because they feel like
(08:06):
that you're calling out theproblem and um that you are you
are not there to support them,that you're there because the
you know that that they are theproblem.
Right, right.
Right.
So I I'm I'm sorry, I feel likeI'm struggling to to say the
right words.
SPEAKER_02 (08:24):
So I think that's helpful.
Yeah, no, I think that's very itmakes sense to me.
Um you have you have a lot ofpersonal experience, and I know
we've talked in the past andyou've shared multiple
presentations in the past forFrontier.
Can you talk to us about or tellus a story about the difference
(08:45):
that good care or care periodcan make in a veteran's life?
SPEAKER_00 (08:50):
Sure, absolutely.
So, so I well have multiple, um,but the most recent um, you
know, I'm I've spoken about mybrother.
Um, that's probably the mostrecent um through the assistance
of family members.
Um he is um about eight yearsolder than me, um, was always
that veteran that said, no, thatneeds to wait for somebody else.
(09:14):
Um, you know, you know, I'm myproblems are small, you know,
leave that for somebody that'smore in need, kind of thing.
Um, but he has suffered fromPTSD for years.
Um, and so through theassistance of his family
members, through myself, um,through previous um battle
buddies that he served with, um,we were able to get him into the
(09:38):
VA healthcare system and um apretty significant VA rating.
Um, and now he not only receivescompensation, but he receives
that um mental health care thathe needs.
Um, another personal story isrelated to my husband.
My husband um he a few yearsback suffered from some pretty
(10:01):
serious physical um ailments,and he is an he served as an
active guard soldier.
He retired in 2021, um, but acouple years before that he had
um he had spent several monthsactually in the hospital um with
physical sickness, but um hesuffered from um mental illness,
(10:25):
PTSD, and for years he sufferedwith that.
Um and even though I had triedthat, you know, I mentioned, you
know, that defense, I saw thatevery time that I attempted to
speak to him about it.
Um but it was around this timethat he suffered this physical
ailment.
Um he was um he was became veryaware that he suffered from PTSD
(10:53):
because of the responses that hehad to these these physical um
ailments, because he was in ICUfor three weeks.
He was on life support, um, allthe things.
And then he had to go throughthe recovery with um
occupational therapy, physicaltherapy.
And so he not only then hadmyself, but I feel like as
(11:14):
advocating for him, if I had notbeen there to say, my husband
suffers from PTSD, they wantedto, they wanted to time down
because you know, otherwise hewould yank the the you know the
tube out.
He would um do those, you know,pull out my Vs, those type of
things, um, that made thedifference in his care.
And as a result, then um it wasbrought forward.
(11:35):
And then he began receiving carefor that, right?
Um it and I it it's it'schallenging sometimes to be that
person, you know, um becausethere's a lot of backlash.
Um, but that's where you um, youknow, if you remain present and
(11:56):
you can endure the um the storm,um the the light on the other
side is so worth it because theman that he is today, um, he's a
completely different person thanhe was five, seven years ago
because of um the care that he'sreceived, because of the
(12:20):
intervention that he has had,um, and then by having those
that care for him to stand insupport of him.
SPEAKER_02 (12:29):
So And I just talking about your husband, and
I think from both sides it'sdifficult.
So being the person needing helpand the person trying to help.
And I want to note that you werea professional and it still was
not, you're a professional inpsychiatric mental health, and
it still wasn't.
(12:52):
You know what I and so I thinkeveryone should give themselves
grace and each other grace.
Just speaking from peoplelistening are not don't have
your credentials and yourexperience and knowledge, and
giving yourself grace and havingpatience with yourself, but also
(13:14):
the person you're trying tohelp.
SPEAKER_00 (13:16):
Yes, absolutely.
Absolutely.
And it's not an easy journey.
It's not, especially when theyare resistant and they they
still believe that there's not aproblem.
SPEAKER_02 (13:27):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (13:28):
So yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (13:30):
Talk to me about gaps um in healthcare with uh
with veteran needs and and whatis currently being provided.
Do you see any gaps or what arethose gaps?
SPEAKER_00 (13:44):
Um absolutely.
So I think we've seen lots ofimprovements um over the the
years, um, especially when umcare was opened up to community
um resources, right?
So instead of having to wait onthe VA because the VA was so
(14:06):
backed up, oh, I'm gonna sendyou to a current community care
provider.
Um and that I feel has made allthe difference in the world.
And once again, I can speak topersonal on a personal level.
So as I've started to enter myjourney in the VA, um I have had
(14:27):
that option.
Okay, so you can see theprovider within the VA system.
It's gonna be two months.
Or we can send you to communitycare, and literally it was
within two weeks.
SPEAKER_01 (14:38):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (14:39):
So that's the difference that we're talking.
And those um, those changes arebeing made.
But on occasion, on occasion,it's still the need to be seen
within the VA system.
And sometimes those are um,that's it.
There's a weight, right?
Um, so um, and the other deficitthat I would say that I've seen,
(15:01):
and I don't know that there areany changes being made on uh
this level yet, is it's relatedto prescriptions, um medicines,
the VA formulary um and what'savailable is on one level.
Um, and I don't know, I don'tknow how quickly that's
evolving.
That's one thing that I cannotspeak to, but on a personal
(15:22):
level, through myself, myhusband, we've had those
conversations with the VA.
Oh, you can't, sorry, that's notin our formulary.
So um then we had to go back outto the community.
And not that it then cost, youknow, insanely amounts of money
necessarily, but still the factthat that it couldn't be
provided there.
(15:42):
So Yeah, it was another hoop.
Yeah, yes, absolutely.
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (15:47):
Anything else you think we should share or talk
about.
SPEAKER_00 (15:56):
No, I mean I mean, there's nothing, you know, I
mentioned the suicide, the factthat that's still so prevalent,
um, especially compared to umnon-veterans, right?
It's still I I think the laststatistic statistic that I saw
was that um veteran compared tonon-veteran, it's still like
fift greater than 50% higher,right?
(16:18):
The rate is just astronomical.
Um, you know, um physicalhealth, mental health, um both
so very important, but mentalhealth, please continue to work
to fight to beat the stigma.
(16:38):
The stigma is, I feel, still oneof the greatest barriers, right?
One of the greatest barriers tocare.
Um I would say that if you weregonna march towards something to
to try to make a difference,that would be where it would
fall.
SPEAKER_02 (16:57):
And one more question for you.
Um I'm gonna talk to Howard alittle later, but what about
resources?
Resources that you haveexperience with personally for
veterans?
SPEAKER_00 (17:08):
Um Absolutely.
So um as I've began to navigatethis journey with myself, my
husband, um, even my brother.
So, you know, um we are in atechnologically savvy world,
right?
So there's an app foreverything.
There's an app for the VA.
Um, you can even submit yourclaim online, but I would
(17:30):
encourage you to get assistancefrom someone like Howard.
Um, and he'll talk a lot aboutthat when he comes on, I'm sure.
Um VA app that helps you keep inthe know whether it's your um
benefits, your resources, orwill then connect you to what's
(17:51):
available.
Me on a personal level, as I'venavigated through my healthcare
journey, whether that's physicalhealth, mental health, there are
all kinds of apps that areavailable for resources there,
whether that's nutrition,whether that's um PTSD, whether
that's um just I want to engagein some mindfulness, um, there
(18:13):
there's so many resources thatthe VA offers related to that
type of thing too.
SPEAKER_02 (18:19):
So thank you so much for joining me and sharing your
experiences and expertise.
SPEAKER_00 (18:25):
Absolutely.
So glad I could be here.
SPEAKER_02 (18:27):
Thank you.
Now joining me is HowardWhitehead.
Howard, tell me a little bitabout your role and what it
means to be an accreditedservice officer and what the
Kentucky American Legion isdoing.
SPEAKER_03 (18:41):
Well, I'm the uh adjutant and post service
officer at Woodford Post 67, anduh we're based out of downtown
Brussels, we serve all ofWoodford County.
Uh a service officer's mainfunction is to help veterans and
their families with basicallywhatever they might need.
Um, our post, of course, has uhuh uh a really sharp concern
(19:04):
about our members, but we gobeyond that.
We we service any veteran umwhat their family might need or
any questions they might haveabout benefits, or we've even
been known to help veterans thatare having financial issues with
paying their electric bill orgetting their car repaired so
they can get to work.
Um now past that as a as a VAaccredited service officer, I've
(19:26):
had training and a mentorshipwith some experienced service
officers uh to know and know howto submit claims for VA benefits
and know how those claims areprocessed, and if there's a
denial, how to research andappeal those and uh do all we
can to get veterans the benefitsand their surviving families if
they pass, uh get all thebenefits they need.
SPEAKER_02 (19:50):
And what would you say the biggest need you're
seeing, or the biggest way thatyour role can help veterans now?
SPEAKER_03 (20:00):
Wow.
That that's a big question.
Um The main thing is gettingveterans to understand um that
we're there and we're ready tohelp them.
Um there's there's a lot ofother people that claim to be
helping veterans, and andthere's the attorneys that are
out there and they chargeveterans for that.
Uh then there's the flybyknights that they say they want
(20:23):
donations and they really don'tknow how the system works, so
they're not really pro providinga full service.
Um and what they can do is come,and I don't care if they come to
the American Legion, they can goto the VFW, the disabled
American veterans, uh, the statehas service officers, but they
to get help, and they reallyshould get help anytime they
want to deal with the VA, theyshould go to an accredited
(20:46):
accredited veteran serviceofficer because we help any
veteran, there's no charge,we're trained, we know how the
system works, and we'll doeverything we can to get them
what they what they deserve.
Most veterans don't even know weexist.
SPEAKER_02 (21:01):
And what would you say the main benefit uh uh uh
you're helping with?
SPEAKER_03 (21:10):
My main thing right now is helping veterans who went
to somebody else that didn'tknow what they were doing.
And cleaning up the mess.
Exactly.
Um I've I've got uh more than ahandful of veterans who have
filed claims for 20 or even 30conditions.
Um they may or may not have beencaused by service.
That's part of my job is to helpthem figure that out.
Um but they didn't send anysupporting documentation or
(21:33):
anything like that in it, sothey all got denied.
And they spent years readmittingand resubmitting and retrying
the claims without reallychanging anything because they
don't know how the system works.
Well, I gather that informationtogether once they finally get
to me.
And we put together packageswith all the supporting
documentations, all the requiredsecondary forms, everything they
(21:54):
need to give them a betterchance at getting what they
need.
SPEAKER_02 (21:58):
Are there any misconceptions about your role
or uh getting VA benefits?
SPEAKER_03 (22:05):
Well, there's still a lot of folks that think that
the VA wants to turn them down,and that's absolutely not the
case.
But that being said, the VA andtheir their raters and their
examiners and all these otherpeople that are involved in the
process, they have rules theyhave to follow.
The the VA and how thesedisabilities are handled and how
the claims are handled are allgoverned by laws that come out
(22:26):
of Congress.
It's not up to the VA.
It's not up to me.
Um I I I've had more veteransthan I can count say, I just
don't want to mess with all thatpaperwork and all the foreign
engineers are just gonna deny meany of it because that's what
they want to do.
No, that's not at all true.
There are a ton of people at theVA, and I even worked at the VA
for a while.
I retired from the VA datacenter in Texas.
(22:49):
Over 40 percent of the peopleworking in the VA are veterans.
And a large chunk of those aredisabled veterans.
Uh-huh.
So we know what the veterans aredealing with.
And we have this deep desire todo all we can to help as a VA
employee or as a as a serviceofficer.
That's what we're here for.
But we have to operate withinthe confines of the law.
SPEAKER_02 (23:10):
Right.
And there are processes andprocedures to getting there.
SPEAKER_03 (23:14):
There's a lot of them.
SPEAKER_02 (23:15):
Yeah.
Should we go through those?
No.
I'm just kidding.
We don't have time.
Not today.
Not nearly enough time.
Um talk to me about gettingenrolled in VA healthcare.
SPEAKER_03 (23:27):
Yeah, some some people think that anybody can
just walk up and get health carebecause they were a veteran.
And that's just not the case.
There are three ways to get intohealthcare.
Um it all starts with a Form10-10Z.
Um but part of that is there'sthree qualifications.
One is uh if you don't have anykind of service connected
disability, you have to meetcertain income restrictions.
(23:50):
If your uh net worth is over acertain amount, you're not going
to be eligible for health care.
The second way is have a serviceconnected disability.
That's why some people in theeconomy say, Well, I can't get
into health care.
Well, okay, let's talk aboutyour health.
Why?
Oh, because I'm fishing forservice for things that we can
claim as a service connecteddisability.
(24:11):
I get that.
They're in health care, theydon't care about the income.
Um the third thing is a a littleknown thing called a um give me
just one second.
Catastrophic disability.
With that one, it doesn't matterif you have a service connected
disability, it doesn't matterwhat your income is.
Um say you have your I'm tryingto think of a good scenario.
(24:34):
Well, just one that I've I'vejust dealt with recently.
Uh lady came in with her husbandwho had had a stroke.
Well, he had no serviceconnected disabilities.
He had he had never seen a VAfor anything.
But they needed to get him intoVA health care, mainly so she
could get benefits to help takecare of him.
Uh and because he had thatstroke, that's called a
(24:55):
catastrophic disability, and wewere able to request that he get
an examination, see if hequalifies.
And they said, well, yeah,obviously because of his
condition.
And um within within a month, uhwe had gotten him in and uh
enrolled in VA healthcare justbecause of that.
So if you have a veteran who'swho's um a stroke is a great
(25:18):
example, yeah.
Um any number of catastrophicillnesses hit out of the blue,
um you can get them into VAhealthcare.
And yeah, there there are stillco-pays at some level, uh, but
there are others where there'snot.
Uh it's it's a complex system.
Um But that's that's a great wayto not have to worry about the
(25:40):
income and the service uhconnection.
You know, if if you're in thatunpleasant circumstance, it's an
option.
SPEAKER_02 (25:45):
So it's not you don't have to meet all three,
it's one of the three options.
Howard, how can the people, howcan veterans in Woodford County
reach you?
SPEAKER_03 (25:56):
Well, one of the easiest ways is to go to our
website at woodfordpost67.com,and there's a tab on that called
service officer.
And you go in there, you can seewhat we're about, what we do.
Um and then there's a a contactform, you can just send us a
message and go that way.
I also have a phone number.
And of course, I don't rememberwhat it is.
(26:16):
I never called myself.
Um give me just one second andI'll have it.
Uh 859-379-9340.
Uh and I may not answer becauseI'm I'm dealing with a lot of
clients and all this otherstuff.
Um, just leave a message, I'llget back.
(26:37):
Umsite and that those are thetwo best ways.
And then the um once a month onthe fourth Thursday of every
month between 3 and 8 p.m., Ihave walk-in hours at one of the
study rooms up in the WoodfordCounty Library upstairs, down uh
downtown for sales.
So I just walk on in, and Iusually only have one, maybe two
(27:00):
people when I'm there.
Um you may have to wait a littlewhile until I get done talking
to someone else, but come on upand see me, you know?
We'll get started.
SPEAKER_02 (27:09):
Yeah, that's awesome.
Uh anything else you want toshare?
SPEAKER_03 (27:13):
Um well, if you do come see me, I would recommend
that you bring your DD 214,which is discharge papers.
Um bring any any familydocumentation, marriage
certificates, birthcertificates, divorce decrees,
adoption papers, anything likethat.
Because when when you get to acertain level of disability, you
can get more pay for havingdependents and all this other
(27:34):
kind of thing.
So that's yet another form.
But I need to have theinformation off those other
documents to complete that form.
Um just come ready and and beprepared to open up.
Uh the more I know about a case,the the better I can serve it.
And um, you know, there'sthere's a lot of things that can
be claimed that most peopledon't realize.
Um and some of the easiest onesare, for instance, uh hearing
(27:58):
problems, and especially for uhcombat veterans like tinnitus.
Right.
Um they're exposed to a lot ofloud uh weapons fire and
explosions and equipment and allthat.
Tinnitus is a common thing.
So um people don't think, well,it's just noise in my ears,
they're never giving me anythingfor that.
Well, they will.
(28:18):
And and a lot of people that's agateway into the VA system.
So um you know, just and anddon't think about I I want to
save those resources forsomebody who needs it worse than
me.
I want to save the appointmenttimes, I want to save the money
and all that.
Well, I used to think that too,and then somebody opened my eyes
and I just wasn't thinking, andthey were.
(28:38):
I said the VA is always gonnahave the money.
The VA's always gonna have aslot.
Sometimes you might have to waita couple months to get an
appointment, but they always gotroom and they're always gonna
have money.
Don't worry about it.
Get in there and get what you'veearned.
And people just need tounderstand they can step up,
come get some help.
And like I said, if it's not me,get an accredited service
(28:59):
officer from anyone.
You can go to VA.gov or you cancall their 800 number at
800-827-1000 and ask them tofind an accredited service
officer near them.
Uh but they don't even have tobe close.
I do a lot of cases via emailand phone.
I've got cases in Bowling Green,I've got one down in Wilmore,
uh, I've got some up towardsCincinnati.
(29:21):
And we do everything over thephone.
SPEAKER_02 (29:23):
So someone who doesn't even live in Woodford
County could contact you.
SPEAKER_03 (29:26):
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_02 (29:27):
And one other thing I think it's important for you
to clarify um active duty versusveteran resources.
So they, if you're active duty,you can't go through the VA.
SPEAKER_03 (29:38):
Yes, but there are exceptions like active duty
national guard.
If they're not on act currentlyactive federal service, they can
get help with the VA.
Okay.
I've got a few cases that I'mworking now that are are people
that um you know they're they'reactive with the guard and they
still do their their two weeksevery so often and all that
other kind of thing, but they'renot on active federal.
(30:00):
Federal service and that's thethat's the big break right
there.
So you know they can get into VAhealthcare and they can get VA
benefits for the time they wereon active duty.
Um I've got some guard membersthat were in Kuwait, Iraq,
Afghanistan, and they're gettingdisability payments for that
time.
Now they go back on federalservice, it makes no difference.
(30:20):
Um that's just a that's a awhole nother active period.
And that counts for somethingelse.
Okay.
So yeah, that it now if it's anactive duty, say you're an
active regular Marine Corps,regular army.
No, we we can't do that.
SPEAKER_01 (30:34):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (30:35):
Um but uh National Guard and Reservist, yes, we
can.
SPEAKER_02 (30:39):
All right.
Thank you so much for joining meand sharing your expertise.
SPEAKER_03 (30:42):
Thanks for having me.
Appreciate it.
SPEAKER_02 (30:45):
Thank you for joining us for today's episode.
Ask community members.
There are several things we cando to help our veterans.
We can support them by showingup for them.
We can encourage them to reachout, um, just stay in touch with
your veteran or loved one, givethem a ride where they need to,
(31:06):
um, advocate for them, whetherthat's reaching out to your
local politician for an upcomingbill, or on a personal level,
attending their appointments andmeetings with them.
Thank you for listening, andwe'll see you next time.
Welcome back to Real Talk Community Health Care in
Action.
Today we are going to talk aboutcaring for our veterans, and
joining me for that will beFrontier Faculty Member and
Clinical Director for thePsychiatric Mental Health Nurse
Practitioner Program, Dr.
Susan Piper.
Dr.
Piper received a Master's ofScience in Nursing from Western
Kentucky University in 2010,emphasizing nursing education.
(00:31):
In 2016, she received apostmaster's certificate focused
on psychiatric mental health.
She received her Doctor ofNursing Practice degree from
Murray State University in 2018.
She has served 32 years in theKentucky National Guard and was
a chief nurse for the KentuckyNational Guard's mobile
vaccination team during theCOVID-19 pandemic.
(00:51):
And she continues to serve aschief nurse.
Later on, we'll be joined byHoward Whitehead.
Howard is the Post ServiceOfficer for Woodford Post 67 and
is a fully VA accreditedDepartment Veteran Service
Officer.
This means he has had andcontinues to receive training in
VA claim policies, procedures,and best practices in preparing
(01:13):
and filing claims and can submitpaperwork directly to the VA.
Dr.
Piper, thank you so much forjoining me.
SPEAKER_00 (01:21):
Thank you for having me.
SPEAKER_02 (01:23):
Can you first talk to me about your personal
experience and how that hasshaped your perspective of the
needs for veterans?
SPEAKER_00 (01:30):
Yes, so not only have I served myself and
continue to serve, I am a wifeof a veteran, I'm sister
veterans, three brothers, allthree of them served, as well as
my dad, so I'm a daughter of aveteran.
And I seen firsthand the impactof serving on those individuals,
(01:54):
and then how it impacts familymembers.
SPEAKER_02 (01:58):
Talk to me about why it's important to get our
veterans care, not just themental health care, but also the
physical health care.
SPEAKER_00 (02:05):
We owe our veterans a great debt for the sacrifice
that they've made.
And I feel as though this isjust like pennies towards
repaying that debt.
But for our veterans, theydeserve to be the healthiest
that they can be.
And so we need to focus onimproving both their physical
(02:31):
and their mental health care.
And sometimes that's related tothe care that they actually
receive, sometimes that'srelated to the ability to
receive that care.
SPEAKER_02 (02:42):
And so, as community members and family members, what
can we look for in our veteransas signs that they need help for
something specific or just ingeneral?
SPEAKER_00 (02:53):
So physical needs are many times very apparent.
You know, maybe it's um a limp,maybe it's you notice um a
deficit in their movements insome way or a change in their
movements.
Um when it comes to um hearing,a lot of times that's easy to
(03:14):
identify.
But when we consider mentalhealth, um, sometimes that's a
little more challenging.
Um it may be that you noticethey become agitated more
easily.
It may be that um they are down,depressed, maybe um for
reference you notice thatthey're an Eeyore, or it may be
(03:37):
that you notice that maybe theyum avoid things, right?
Certain situations becausethat's causing them anxiety and
they don't want to face or beinvolved in those things because
of that.
SPEAKER_01 (03:50):
And how can we get them help then?
Or how can we help them?
SPEAKER_00 (03:55):
So um a big thing is, you know, this the stigma is
still there, right?
We have a stigma that we have tobattle related to getting um
care for our veterans,specifically mental health care.
Um, you know, you mentioned umHoward is gonna join this the
segment a little later.
(04:15):
Um that's an excellent resourcerelated to starting the process
for health care, mental healthcare.
Um it may be that we need tojust continue to show support
and be there for them.
Sometimes we have to advocate,right?
We have to stand in the gap.
Um, but the first step isusually the hardest.
SPEAKER_02 (04:37):
So you're talking about their people's mental
health.
What misperceptions do peoplehave about veterans' mental
health?
SPEAKER_00 (04:45):
So I you know misconceptions.
Sometimes, okay, so I I guess Iwas trying to think about how to
how to how to to go about that.
Because sometimes I don't thinkit's it's our misconception per
se, but the veterans, those thathave served, those that are
(05:12):
still serving, we push thatdown.
We don't always speak to thosethings, right?
Because that's what we weretold.
You know, you don't share.
If there's a problem, you know,you only seek help if it's
absolutely necessary.
So it may be that you see aveteran walking around, um, and
(05:35):
until you speak to them, you mayor interact with them, you may
not know that there's a problemor potentially a problem.
Um because we've been told tohide it, to not disclose that.
So I don't know that themisconception comes from the
(05:57):
person or if it's the veteranthemselves that's providing the
cloaking device, so to speak,you know, that's cloaking what
the problem, that the problem isthere.
I don't know, I don't know ifI'm expressing that exactly how
I'm wanting to.
SPEAKER_02 (06:12):
Well, tell me, let's say I have a sibling or a
brother and I'm concerned andI'm asking them they're hiding,
whatever, however they'refeeling, they're not sharing
their whole truth.
But I'm concerned about them.
What do I do?
What do you do?
SPEAKER_00 (06:29):
Right.
I think a a good place to startis telling them that it's gonna
be okay and that you're there,right?
That you're there when that whenthey are ready, and the
importance um and the need forgetting help.
(06:50):
Because how much better canthings potentially be if they
do?
And sometimes just knowing thatthey have that support, it's all
it takes.
SPEAKER_02 (07:02):
And sometimes by avoiding getting help for
certain situations, it causeslike a domino effect, right?
Oh, absolutely.
And and so how do you how do youbring that to light for them?
SPEAKER_00 (07:18):
Speaking truth, right?
Because just like um, you know,we we've heard so much about um
suicide and suicide amongst ourveterans, and you know, how do
we how what what do we what dowe do related to making a
difference there, right?
Um you have to just ask, youhave to say, you have to speak
(07:44):
the truth in what you're seeing.
So if you see that, lay thatout, but with kindness and
grace.
Because, you know, sometimeswhen you start to have those
conversations, the thing thatI've seen is the defense comes
up, right?
So immediately they go on thedefense because they feel like
(08:06):
that you're calling out theproblem and um that you are you
are not there to support them,that you're there because the
you know that that they are theproblem.
Right, right.
Right.
So I I'm I'm sorry, I feel likeI'm struggling to to say the
right words.
SPEAKER_02 (08:24):
So I think that's helpful.
Yeah, no, I think that's very itmakes sense to me.
Um you have you have a lot ofpersonal experience, and I know
we've talked in the past andyou've shared multiple
presentations in the past forFrontier.
Can you talk to us about or tellus a story about the difference
(08:45):
that good care or care periodcan make in a veteran's life?
SPEAKER_00 (08:50):
Sure, absolutely.
So, so I well have multiple, um,but the most recent um, you
know, I'm I've spoken about mybrother.
Um, that's probably the mostrecent um through the assistance
of family members.
Um he is um about eight yearsolder than me, um, was always
that veteran that said, no, thatneeds to wait for somebody else.
(09:14):
Um, you know, you know, I'm myproblems are small, you know,
leave that for somebody that'smore in need, kind of thing.
Um, but he has suffered fromPTSD for years.
Um, and so through theassistance of his family
members, through myself, um,through previous um battle
buddies that he served with, um,we were able to get him into the
(09:38):
VA healthcare system and um apretty significant VA rating.
Um, and now he not only receivescompensation, but he receives
that um mental health care thathe needs.
Um, another personal story isrelated to my husband.
My husband um he a few yearsback suffered from some pretty
(10:01):
serious physical um ailments,and he is an he served as an
active guard soldier.
He retired in 2021, um, but acouple years before that he had
um he had spent several monthsactually in the hospital um with
physical sickness, but um hesuffered from um mental illness,
(10:25):
PTSD, and for years he sufferedwith that.
Um and even though I had triedthat, you know, I mentioned, you
know, that defense, I saw thatevery time that I attempted to
speak to him about it.
Um but it was around this timethat he suffered this physical
ailment.
Um he was um he was became veryaware that he suffered from PTSD
(10:53):
because of the responses that hehad to these these physical um
ailments, because he was in ICUfor three weeks.
He was on life support, um, allthe things.
And then he had to go throughthe recovery with um
occupational therapy, physicaltherapy.
And so he not only then hadmyself, but I feel like as
(11:14):
advocating for him, if I had notbeen there to say, my husband
suffers from PTSD, they wantedto, they wanted to time down
because you know, otherwise hewould yank the the you know the
tube out.
He would um do those, you know,pull out my Vs, those type of
things, um, that made thedifference in his care.
And as a result, then um it wasbrought forward.
(11:35):
And then he began receiving carefor that, right?
Um it and I it it's it'schallenging sometimes to be that
person, you know, um becausethere's a lot of backlash.
Um, but that's where you um, youknow, if you remain present and
(11:56):
you can endure the um the storm,um the the light on the other
side is so worth it because theman that he is today, um, he's a
completely different person thanhe was five, seven years ago
because of um the care that he'sreceived, because of the
(12:20):
intervention that he has had,um, and then by having those
that care for him to stand insupport of him.
SPEAKER_02 (12:29):
So And I just talking about your husband, and
I think from both sides it'sdifficult.
So being the person needing helpand the person trying to help.
And I want to note that you werea professional and it still was
not, you're a professional inpsychiatric mental health, and
it still wasn't.
(12:52):
You know what I and so I thinkeveryone should give themselves
grace and each other grace.
Just speaking from peoplelistening are not don't have
your credentials and yourexperience and knowledge, and
giving yourself grace and havingpatience with yourself, but also
(13:14):
the person you're trying tohelp.
SPEAKER_00 (13:16):
Yes, absolutely.
Absolutely.
And it's not an easy journey.
It's not, especially when theyare resistant and they they
still believe that there's not aproblem.
SPEAKER_02 (13:27):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (13:28):
So yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (13:30):
Talk to me about gaps um in healthcare with uh
with veteran needs and and whatis currently being provided.
Do you see any gaps or what arethose gaps?
SPEAKER_00 (13:44):
Um absolutely.
So I think we've seen lots ofimprovements um over the the
years, um, especially when umcare was opened up to community
um resources, right?
So instead of having to wait onthe VA because the VA was so
(14:06):
backed up, oh, I'm gonna sendyou to a current community care
provider.
Um and that I feel has made allthe difference in the world.
And once again, I can speak topersonal on a personal level.
So as I've started to enter myjourney in the VA, um I have had
(14:27):
that option.
Okay, so you can see theprovider within the VA system.
It's gonna be two months.
Or we can send you to communitycare, and literally it was
within two weeks.
SPEAKER_01 (14:38):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (14:39):
So that's the difference that we're talking.
And those um, those changes arebeing made.
But on occasion, on occasion,it's still the need to be seen
within the VA system.
And sometimes those are um,that's it.
There's a weight, right?
Um, so um, and the other deficitthat I would say that I've seen,
(15:01):
and I don't know that there areany changes being made on uh
this level yet, is it's relatedto prescriptions, um medicines,
the VA formulary um and what'savailable is on one level.
Um, and I don't know, I don'tknow how quickly that's
evolving.
That's one thing that I cannotspeak to, but on a personal
(15:22):
level, through myself, myhusband, we've had those
conversations with the VA.
Oh, you can't, sorry, that's notin our formulary.
So um then we had to go back outto the community.
And not that it then cost, youknow, insanely amounts of money
necessarily, but still the factthat that it couldn't be
provided there.
(15:42):
So Yeah, it was another hoop.
Yeah, yes, absolutely.
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (15:47):
Anything else you think we should share or talk
about.
SPEAKER_00 (15:56):
No, I mean I mean, there's nothing, you know, I
mentioned the suicide, the factthat that's still so prevalent,
um, especially compared to umnon-veterans, right?
It's still I I think the laststatistic statistic that I saw
was that um veteran compared tonon-veteran, it's still like
fift greater than 50% higher,right?
(16:18):
The rate is just astronomical.
Um, you know, um physicalhealth, mental health, um both
so very important, but mentalhealth, please continue to work
to fight to beat the stigma.
(16:38):
The stigma is, I feel, still oneof the greatest barriers, right?
One of the greatest barriers tocare.
Um I would say that if you weregonna march towards something to
to try to make a difference,that would be where it would
fall.
SPEAKER_02 (16:57):
And one more question for you.
Um I'm gonna talk to Howard alittle later, but what about
resources?
Resources that you haveexperience with personally for
veterans?
SPEAKER_00 (17:08):
Um Absolutely.
So um as I've began to navigatethis journey with myself, my
husband, um, even my brother.
So, you know, um we are in atechnologically savvy world,
right?
So there's an app foreverything.
There's an app for the VA.
Um, you can even submit yourclaim online, but I would
(17:30):
encourage you to get assistancefrom someone like Howard.
Um, and he'll talk a lot aboutthat when he comes on, I'm sure.
Um VA app that helps you keep inthe know whether it's your um
benefits, your resources, orwill then connect you to what's
(17:51):
available.
Me on a personal level, as I'venavigated through my healthcare
journey, whether that's physicalhealth, mental health, there are
all kinds of apps that areavailable for resources there,
whether that's nutrition,whether that's um PTSD, whether
that's um just I want to engagein some mindfulness, um, there
(18:13):
there's so many resources thatthe VA offers related to that
type of thing too.
SPEAKER_02 (18:19):
So thank you so much for joining me and sharing your
experiences and expertise.
SPEAKER_00 (18:25):
Absolutely.
So glad I could be here.
SPEAKER_02 (18:27):
Thank you.
Now joining me is HowardWhitehead.
Howard, tell me a little bitabout your role and what it
means to be an accreditedservice officer and what the
Kentucky American Legion isdoing.
SPEAKER_03 (18:41):
Well, I'm the uh adjutant and post service
officer at Woodford Post 67, anduh we're based out of downtown
Brussels, we serve all ofWoodford County.
Uh a service officer's mainfunction is to help veterans and
their families with basicallywhatever they might need.
Um, our post, of course, has uhuh uh a really sharp concern
(19:04):
about our members, but we gobeyond that.
We we service any veteran umwhat their family might need or
any questions they might haveabout benefits, or we've even
been known to help veterans thatare having financial issues with
paying their electric bill orgetting their car repaired so
they can get to work.
Um now past that as a as a VAaccredited service officer, I've
(19:26):
had training and a mentorshipwith some experienced service
officers uh to know and know howto submit claims for VA benefits
and know how those claims areprocessed, and if there's a
denial, how to research andappeal those and uh do all we
can to get veterans the benefitsand their surviving families if
they pass, uh get all thebenefits they need.
SPEAKER_02 (19:50):
And what would you say the biggest need you're
seeing, or the biggest way thatyour role can help veterans now?
SPEAKER_03 (20:00):
Wow.
That that's a big question.
Um The main thing is gettingveterans to understand um that
we're there and we're ready tohelp them.
Um there's there's a lot ofother people that claim to be
helping veterans, and andthere's the attorneys that are
out there and they chargeveterans for that.
Uh then there's the flybyknights that they say they want
(20:23):
donations and they really don'tknow how the system works, so
they're not really pro providinga full service.
Um and what they can do is come,and I don't care if they come to
the American Legion, they can goto the VFW, the disabled
American veterans, uh, the statehas service officers, but they
to get help, and they reallyshould get help anytime they
want to deal with the VA, theyshould go to an accredited
(20:46):
accredited veteran serviceofficer because we help any
veteran, there's no charge,we're trained, we know how the
system works, and we'll doeverything we can to get them
what they what they deserve.
Most veterans don't even know weexist.
SPEAKER_02 (21:01):
And what would you say the main benefit uh uh uh
you're helping with?
SPEAKER_03 (21:10):
My main thing right now is helping veterans who went
to somebody else that didn'tknow what they were doing.
And cleaning up the mess.
Exactly.
Um I've I've got uh more than ahandful of veterans who have
filed claims for 20 or even 30conditions.
Um they may or may not have beencaused by service.
That's part of my job is to helpthem figure that out.
Um but they didn't send anysupporting documentation or
(21:33):
anything like that in it, sothey all got denied.
And they spent years readmittingand resubmitting and retrying
the claims without reallychanging anything because they
don't know how the system works.
Well, I gather that informationtogether once they finally get
to me.
And we put together packageswith all the supporting
documentations, all the requiredsecondary forms, everything they
(21:54):
need to give them a betterchance at getting what they
need.
SPEAKER_02 (21:58):
Are there any misconceptions about your role
or uh getting VA benefits?
SPEAKER_03 (22:05):
Well, there's still a lot of folks that think that
the VA wants to turn them down,and that's absolutely not the
case.
But that being said, the VA andtheir their raters and their
examiners and all these otherpeople that are involved in the
process, they have rules theyhave to follow.
The the VA and how thesedisabilities are handled and how
the claims are handled are allgoverned by laws that come out
(22:26):
of Congress.
It's not up to the VA.
It's not up to me.
Um I I I've had more veteransthan I can count say, I just
don't want to mess with all thatpaperwork and all the foreign
engineers are just gonna deny meany of it because that's what
they want to do.
No, that's not at all true.
There are a ton of people at theVA, and I even worked at the VA
for a while.
I retired from the VA datacenter in Texas.
(22:49):
Over 40 percent of the peopleworking in the VA are veterans.
And a large chunk of those aredisabled veterans.
Uh-huh.
So we know what the veterans aredealing with.
And we have this deep desire todo all we can to help as a VA
employee or as a as a serviceofficer.
That's what we're here for.
But we have to operate withinthe confines of the law.
SPEAKER_02 (23:10):
Right.
And there are processes andprocedures to getting there.
SPEAKER_03 (23:14):
There's a lot of them.
SPEAKER_02 (23:15):
Yeah.
Should we go through those?
No.
I'm just kidding.
We don't have time.
Not today.
Not nearly enough time.
Um talk to me about gettingenrolled in VA healthcare.
SPEAKER_03 (23:27):
Yeah, some some people think that anybody can
just walk up and get health carebecause they were a veteran.
And that's just not the case.
There are three ways to get intohealthcare.
Um it all starts with a Form10-10Z.
Um but part of that is there'sthree qualifications.
One is uh if you don't have anykind of service connected
disability, you have to meetcertain income restrictions.
(23:50):
If your uh net worth is over acertain amount, you're not going
to be eligible for health care.
The second way is have a serviceconnected disability.
That's why some people in theeconomy say, Well, I can't get
into health care.
Well, okay, let's talk aboutyour health.
Why?
Oh, because I'm fishing forservice for things that we can
claim as a service connecteddisability.
(24:11):
I get that.
They're in health care, theydon't care about the income.
Um the third thing is a a littleknown thing called a um give me
just one second.
Catastrophic disability.
With that one, it doesn't matterif you have a service connected
disability, it doesn't matterwhat your income is.
Um say you have your I'm tryingto think of a good scenario.
(24:34):
Well, just one that I've I'vejust dealt with recently.
Uh lady came in with her husbandwho had had a stroke.
Well, he had no serviceconnected disabilities.
He had he had never seen a VAfor anything.
But they needed to get him intoVA health care, mainly so she
could get benefits to help takecare of him.
Uh and because he had thatstroke, that's called a
(24:55):
catastrophic disability, and wewere able to request that he get
an examination, see if hequalifies.
And they said, well, yeah,obviously because of his
condition.
And um within within a month, uhwe had gotten him in and uh
enrolled in VA healthcare justbecause of that.
So if you have a veteran who'swho's um a stroke is a great
(25:18):
example, yeah.
Um any number of catastrophicillnesses hit out of the blue,
um you can get them into VAhealthcare.
And yeah, there there are stillco-pays at some level, uh, but
there are others where there'snot.
Uh it's it's a complex system.
Um But that's that's a great wayto not have to worry about the
(25:40):
income and the service uhconnection.
You know, if if you're in thatunpleasant circumstance, it's an
option.
SPEAKER_02 (25:45):
So it's not you don't have to meet all three,
it's one of the three options.
Howard, how can the people, howcan veterans in Woodford County
reach you?
SPEAKER_03 (25:56):
Well, one of the easiest ways is to go to our
website at woodfordpost67.com,and there's a tab on that called
service officer.
And you go in there, you can seewhat we're about, what we do.
Um and then there's a a contactform, you can just send us a
message and go that way.
I also have a phone number.
And of course, I don't rememberwhat it is.
(26:16):
I never called myself.
Um give me just one second andI'll have it.
Uh 859-379-9340.
Uh and I may not answer becauseI'm I'm dealing with a lot of
clients and all this otherstuff.
Um, just leave a message, I'llget back.
(26:37):
Umsite and that those are thetwo best ways.
And then the um once a month onthe fourth Thursday of every
month between 3 and 8 p.m., Ihave walk-in hours at one of the
study rooms up in the WoodfordCounty Library upstairs, down uh
downtown for sales.
So I just walk on in, and Iusually only have one, maybe two
(27:00):
people when I'm there.
Um you may have to wait a littlewhile until I get done talking
to someone else, but come on upand see me, you know?
We'll get started.
SPEAKER_02 (27:09):
Yeah, that's awesome.
Uh anything else you want toshare?
SPEAKER_03 (27:13):
Um well, if you do come see me, I would recommend
that you bring your DD 214,which is discharge papers.
Um bring any any familydocumentation, marriage
certificates, birthcertificates, divorce decrees,
adoption papers, anything likethat.
Because when when you get to acertain level of disability, you
can get more pay for havingdependents and all this other
(27:34):
kind of thing.
So that's yet another form.
But I need to have theinformation off those other
documents to complete that form.
Um just come ready and and beprepared to open up.
Uh the more I know about a case,the the better I can serve it.
And um, you know, there'sthere's a lot of things that can
be claimed that most peopledon't realize.
Um and some of the easiest onesare, for instance, uh hearing
(27:58):
problems, and especially for uhcombat veterans like tinnitus.
Right.
Um they're exposed to a lot ofloud uh weapons fire and
explosions and equipment and allthat.
Tinnitus is a common thing.
So um people don't think, well,it's just noise in my ears,
they're never giving me anythingfor that.
Well, they will.
(28:18):
And and a lot of people that's agateway into the VA system.
So um you know, just and anddon't think about I I want to
save those resources forsomebody who needs it worse than
me.
I want to save the appointmenttimes, I want to save the money
and all that.
Well, I used to think that too,and then somebody opened my eyes
and I just wasn't thinking, andthey were.
(28:38):
I said the VA is always gonnahave the money.
The VA's always gonna have aslot.
Sometimes you might have to waita couple months to get an
appointment, but they always gotroom and they're always gonna
have money.
Don't worry about it.
Get in there and get what you'veearned.
And people just need tounderstand they can step up,
come get some help.
And like I said, if it's not me,get an accredited service
(28:59):
officer from anyone.
You can go to VA.gov or you cancall their 800 number at
800-827-1000 and ask them tofind an accredited service
officer near them.
Uh but they don't even have tobe close.
I do a lot of cases via emailand phone.
I've got cases in Bowling Green,I've got one down in Wilmore,
uh, I've got some up towardsCincinnati.
(29:21):
And we do everything over thephone.
SPEAKER_02 (29:23):
So someone who doesn't even live in Woodford
County could contact you.
SPEAKER_03 (29:26):
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_02 (29:27):
And one other thing I think it's important for you
to clarify um active duty versusveteran resources.
So they, if you're active duty,you can't go through the VA.
SPEAKER_03 (29:38):
Yes, but there are exceptions like active duty
national guard.
If they're not on act currentlyactive federal service, they can
get help with the VA.
Okay.
I've got a few cases that I'mworking now that are are people
that um you know they're they'reactive with the guard and they
still do their their two weeksevery so often and all that
other kind of thing, but they'renot on active federal.
(30:00):
Federal service and that's thethat's the big break right
there.
So you know they can get into VAhealthcare and they can get VA
benefits for the time they wereon active duty.
Um I've got some guard membersthat were in Kuwait, Iraq,
Afghanistan, and they're gettingdisability payments for that
time.
Now they go back on federalservice, it makes no difference.
(30:20):
Um that's just a that's a awhole nother active period.
And that counts for somethingelse.
Okay.
So yeah, that it now if it's anactive duty, say you're an
active regular Marine Corps,regular army.
No, we we can't do that.
SPEAKER_01 (30:34):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (30:35):
Um but uh National Guard and Reservist, yes, we
can.
SPEAKER_02 (30:39):
All right.
Thank you so much for joining meand sharing your expertise.
SPEAKER_03 (30:42):
Thanks for having me.
Appreciate it.
SPEAKER_02 (30:45):
Thank you for joining us for today's episode.
Ask community members.
There are several things we cando to help our veterans.
We can support them by showingup for them.
We can encourage them to reachout, um, just stay in touch with
your veteran or loved one, givethem a ride where they need to,
(31:06):
um, advocate for them, whetherthat's reaching out to your
local politician for an upcomingbill, or on a personal level,
attending their appointments andmeetings with them.
Thank you for listening, andwe'll see you next time.
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