April 7, 2026 • 47 mins
A life-limiting diagnosis doesn’t just change a calendar. It scrambles the way people think, decide, and even talk to the ones they love, especially when money and legal choices suddenly feel urgent. We’re joined by Rose Zealand, a CERTIFIED FINANCIAL PLANNER™, Certified Financial Transitionist®, and death doula who’s building a rare kind of support for people facing “dying too soon” and the families around them.
We talk through Rose’s origin story, including why she launched her RIA in a way that honors her dad, and how her work connects the practical with the personal. Rose explains her three-part framework: money, meaning, and mortality. That includes cash flow changes after a diagnosis, using disability insurance and other benefits, tightening up estate planning, and getting incapacity planning aligned with real intentions. Just as important, it includes education on the dying process, space to tell one’s story, and support for anticipatory grief that starts the moment life splits into “before” and “after.”
We also get into what this looks like for financial advisors on the front line. When a long-time client becomes inconsistent, avoidant, or overwhelmed, most advisors were never trained for the behavioral and emotional side of finance at end of life. Rose shares how she partners with advisors in an advice-only, time-bound engagement that reduces pressure, creates clarity, and helps clients feel grounded enough to make informed decisions. We close with a candid reflection on legacy, preparedness, and what it means to truly practice what we preach.
If you want more on Rose’s work, visit deathandmoney.com.
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Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_01 (00:03):
Welcome to Real Talk with Life after Greek.
We talk about wealth and issuesas it relates to individuals in
grief, as they navigate financesand the advisors to help them.
We help clients in griefnavigate financial matters.
We also teach advisors how toemotionally and financially work
with clients in grief through anunparalleled process.
(00:24):
This week's podcast is sponsoredby Life After Grief Financial
Planning and Life After GriefConsulting.
SPEAKER_00 (00:31):
Hello and welcome back to another episode of Real
Talk with Life After GriefCrest.
In this episode, I have a prettycool guest, and there's going to
be a future episode kind ofdealing with death and things of
that nature.
But my friend here, RoseZealand, she's a unique
(00:53):
individual in that she is adeath duel, and I'm going to
promote her.
So she has just got her own firmoff the ground.
And I'm going to let her tellabout her own firm.
I'm not going to spill the beansthere.
But she and I became acquaintedas a result of being on a
committee for a it was aconference, and we are both
(01:13):
certified financialtransitionists.
So we were on kind of thesteering agenda committee for
that.
So as I came to know the folksthat were on the committee, I
realized that the folks on thecommittee were a lot smarter
than me.
Rose in that spectrum,especially when I started
speaking to her.
Not that I was intimidated, butI can immediately tell when I'm
(01:34):
speaking to someone howintelligent they are.
And as I've said too in thepast, that I kind of sit back
and observe people.
And Rose in particular struck mebecause I knew that I had to
have my A game when I wastalking to her because of the
fact that she is so highlyintelligent.
And I think that will definitelycome out while we are speaking.
(01:56):
So Rose's practice is prettyunique and it partners with
practices like mine or anyoneelse's.
And I'm gonna let her kind of gointo that.
In a traditional setting, apractice like mine, I have a
client, specifically a clientthat is in grief, and I build
them a financial plan.
And within that financial plan,it basically will earmark their
(02:19):
investments, retirement,insurance, anything under the
sun financially.
And that's not necessarily whatRose's practice does.
Rose, I'm gonna let you take itfrom here.
I'm gonna let you tell aboutyourself.
And I'm just gonna kind of sitback in awe as I have done in
(02:40):
the past.
SPEAKER_04 (02:40):
Thank you so much.
I appreciate it.
And uh I hope I hope I live upto the reputation it just gave
me.
Gave me a lot of credit there.
My name is Rose Zealand.
Just last week got the approvalfrom the state of Montana.
She launched my registeredinvestment advisory, my RIA.
Yeah.
It's a big deal.
I'm very excited.
And the official launch is thiscoming Sunday.
(03:01):
By the time this was released, Iwill have already been launched.
But just a little note about thelaunch date, which ties into the
story and the reason, thepurpose, the why behind my work.
So the launch date is Sunday,January 25th, which would have
been my dad's 65th birthday.
He died almost four years ago.
And it's really his death, hislife and death that has led me
(03:22):
to this moment and having thisbusiness.
My dad died just a few weeksafter his 61st birthday.
So he died too soon.
And it was my experience of hisdeath, my grief, and all the
changes that happened in my lifeafterwards that really prompted
me to be right here, right now,and are the screw line story of
(03:43):
why my business, Golden SwineCollaborative, exists.
I'm very excited to have theofficial launch date on what
would have been his 65thbirthday, because it feels like
a very full-circle moment in mylife and a really beautiful way
to honor and tribute my dad.
As you mentioned, I'm acertified financial planner.
I have a little over a decade ofexperience in financial
(04:04):
services, starting in propertyand casualty insurance, moving
to financial advising with amajor burger dealer, working in
independent space and now my ownfirm.
As you said, I'm also acertified financial
transitionist.
And I would assume your audienceknows what that is, but just to
reiterate, or in case there'ssomebody out there who's not
familiar with it, that is adesignation that's available to
people who are alreadyestablished financial
(04:26):
professionals, whether it's taxor legal or financial planning,
who spend an additional year oftraining and mentorship learning
how to support people who aregoing through major life
transition and all of thecognitive and emotional changes
and struggles that peoplecommonly go through when life is
turned upside down.
(04:47):
So it's very much focused on thehuman side and the behavioral
side of finance.
So I'm a certified financialplanner, a certified financial
transitionist, and I'm also adeath doula.
And that is the newestcredential or experience in my
life.
And it's a direct result of mydad's death as well.
Because one of the insights thatI had when my dad passed, and I
guess I should say here too,that 20-something years ago I
(05:09):
was a birth doula.
So I had been kind of at thebeginning of life and as an
witness to many lives cominginto the world.
When I was with my dad when hedied, with my hand on his chest,
as I felt his final heartbeatand felt his final breath leave
his body, I just had this momentwhere I was like, wow, death is
(05:31):
almost exactly like birth, justcompletely different.
There's there's a magic to themoment when somebody comes into
the world, and there's a magicto the moment when somebody
leaves.
And I don't know that mostpeople would assign that
description to death because itis usually shrouded in hardship
and loss and sadness and grief.
And that's all very real andtrue also.
(05:53):
But the exact moment of thattransition, there's a magic to
it for sure.
So yeah, experiencing that,reflecting that birth and death
were very similar, justcompletely different is what led
me to become a death jewel.
And along the way, I kind of hadthis insight where it's like,
you know what, I want to be aCFP death jewel because there's
there's gotta be a better way todo money and death.
(06:15):
Because culturally, money is ahard thing for a lot of people.
Death is a hard thing for a lotof people.
And when you put them togetherand they frequently go together,
sure, it can be a reallychallenging, even traumatic time
for people.
So I wanted to kind of create apath for that going easier.
It took me about three and ahalf years to figure out what it
(06:35):
could look like and what itmeant to be a CFP Death Doula.
And in the research that I'vedone, I haven't found anybody
else who's doing what I'm doingfrom the angle that I'm doing
it.
And I found multiple people whoare kind of in your zone of
working with people who arewidows or widowers or in the
space after loss and in thebrief space, but not so much the
(06:56):
specific focus on being withpeople who are living with the
diagnosis.
So my focus is on working withpeople in Colorado primarily who
are in their 40s and 50s, whohave been diagnosed with a
life-limiting illness orpotentially life-limiting
illness, and want support withthe financial, logistical,
(07:17):
emotional, and existentialchallenges of dying too soon.
So it's a very specific market.
And understanding that thisdemographic are likely in the
sandwich generation.
So people who have either youngkids or just you know, barely
launching young adult children,as well as potentially taking
care of parents, theirmid-stride in career, they're
(07:37):
really just a mid-stride in lifeand getting a hand-dealt of a
diagnosis that threatens to taketheir life significantly sooner
than anticipated.
It's one of those moments thatthere's life before the moment
of that diagnosis, and there'slife afterwards.
And it can feel powerless, itcan feel helpless, but there's
still a lot of choice, there'sstill a lot of influence that
(08:00):
people can have in a situationthat feels like there's no
control.
So that's really where I comein.
The three focus areas where Iwork are what I call money,
meaning, and mortality.
The money side are the practicalfinancial logistical components
of the financial dynamics thatshift after you get a diagnosis
like that.
Things like how your cash flowchanges, if you're not working
(08:21):
as much, so there's not as muchincome, and how do you
recalibrate to that and adjust?
How do you leverage existinginsurance resources, be it a
disability insurance policy,social security benefits,
potentially working its comp,depending on the source of the
diagnosis, living benefits oflife insurance policy?
Huge into estate planning andgetting really clear on what
(08:41):
your intentions are for thepeople who you love, how you
want to take care of them afteryou're gone.
Because that's fundamentally thewhy behind estate planning is
how do you want to take care ofthe people you love after you're
gone.
And in capacity planning aswell.
So making sure the intentionsare clarified and that the
logistics of the plan matchthose intentions.
This is a quick example of someof the financial side of lives.
(09:05):
On the mortality side, it's alot of education about the dying
process and understanding andhelping to normalize the
physiological changes thatthey're going through and
understand the options andchoices that they have as they
are living through thisdiagnosis and this chapter of
their life.
Non-medical forms of paincontrol, really thinking about
(09:26):
telling their story in a waythat they want to be remembered.
A huge part of Death Doola workis giving people the opportunity
to share the story of their lifewithout judgment, without rules,
without, you know, there's justan open platform for somebody to
say, this is who I am, this iswho I was, this is where I am
now.
(09:47):
So listening without judgmentand a tremendous amount of
compassion and capturing that ina way that can be carried on and
be told by people who are leftbehind.
And then there's the meaningpart of all of this too, of
helping people kind ofrecalibrate cognitively and
emotionally to the reality thatthey're living in now.
How do we adjust to what'shappening?
It's not what we want, but it'swhat's happening.
(10:08):
How do we let that go?
How do we let go ofresponsibility?
How do we ask for help?
How do we allow ourselves toreceive help?
What type of unfinished businessis out there that is important
to the person to try and wrapup?
And how far are they going to beable to get in that unfinished
business while they still havetime to get there?
So those are the types of realmsthat I go into.
SPEAKER_00 (10:29):
Well, I can say that since I've been doing this, I
have never met an individual ora firm that is as highly
specialized as you are.
I'm also thinking back to when Istarted my firm like you, there
was not another firm in thecontinental US, because I
(10:50):
researched it, that specificallydealt with clients that were in
a grief situation.
That was by design on my part.
And as I see forward for you, Ihave the benefit of looking back
to 2017.
A lot of the folks that have nowshown up in this space, I've met
a lot of those folks.
(11:11):
And I can't quantify how many ofthose folks that I've touched
and given advice to, but I cansay over the years, there are a
lot of folks that I havetouched, given advice to, or
formally trained, do what I do.
Um, I absolutely see that kindof going forward for you because
again, this is something thatI've not seen anybody else do.
It's a very unique space.
SPEAKER_04 (11:33):
Yeah, it is.
And I really appreciate thatreflection because when I think
about the scope of this work andwhat could be possible with it,
there's the level of impact onthe people I work with directly,
the people who are in their 40sand 50s and dying too soon.
But there's also the potentialimpact on the financial industry
itself and changing the way thatfinancial planners and advisors
(11:56):
work with people in thissituation.
Because here's the thing (11:58):
I mentioned earlier that
culturally death was a reallydifficult thing for many of us
to talk about, to acknowledge,to prepare for, to really sink
into what it means to maybe dietoo soon.
Or I think most of us arewilling to acknowledge that
we're going to die someday.
I think most people, yeah, I'mgonna die someday, obviously.
(12:21):
None of us get out of thisalive.
But I think most people are alsowilling to acknowledge that
someday can be any day, becausewe all talk about the proverbial
bus and you know getting hit bythe train and whatever.
But we tend to be glib aboutthat.
SPEAKER_03 (12:35):
Right.
SPEAKER_04 (12:35):
And also not take it very seriously because those
things are very, very true.
So, what does it mean toactually drop into preparing for
the someday that could be anyday?
Because doing so requires atremendous amount of courage on
the part of the individual who'sgoing there because it's gonna
(12:56):
stir up sadness.
You think about one of theexercises that we do in Death
Door training is thisvisualization where we're asked
to kind of drop into your lifeexactly as it exists today with
the people who you love in it,exactly who you have right now,
all the circumstances of yourcareer, your children, your
friends, your plans that you'relooking forward to, and you're
(13:19):
dying.
Everything's the same except nowyou've got maybe three months
left to live.
And really going through whatare the emotional implications
of that and dropping in thefeelings of getting in that
situation and working throughit.
It takes a lot of courage to dothat.
And that's what we touch on whenwe're asked to do things like
our estate plan and ourincapacity planning.
(13:40):
And that's why it's so difficultfor a lot of people, because
having to face the reality ofhow sad or angry or heartbroken
or hopeless or helpless thatthey would feel if that were
their situation is a huge blockto doing it.
Because financial planners arejust human beings.
SPEAKER_02 (13:57):
Sure.
We're humans, yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (14:00):
Humans, financial planners struggle with that for
themselves as well, even thoughon a daily basis we're
constantly advising people to dotheir own plans, but we have a
difficulty with that as well.
And we also have, just as humanbeings, a lot of uncertainty
around how to support people whoare in that situation.
What do you say?
What do you say to somebodywho's got stage four cancer
(14:20):
where there's no cure or there'sno curative treatment?
It's something that they canprolong life, but they're not
gonna get rid of, you know, I'msorry, that sucks.
There's a lot of things thatwe're sort of conditioned to say
that aren't particularlyhelpful.
What we do as platitudes.
And so, yeah, helping financialplanners, helping the financial
(14:41):
industry as a whole understandhow to work with people in this
situation, how to work withdeath and dying in a more
compassionate and holistic way.
That's one of the things that Ihope my work does over time.
SPEAKER_00 (14:52):
I have a scenario for you.
Yeah.
And I think we briefly touchedon this.
I'm going to place Chris Daleoutside of this spectrum, but
I'm going to give this real lifeexample that I just went
through.
Again, I'm going to separatemyself because my skill set is
unique.
And so, say that you have aclient, and the client that I
had, I called him Hugh Breeze,and I brought him up on several
(15:12):
episodes.
He passed away in November.
And the unique situation withhim was that we had just got his
estate planning done a year agoin November.
I had a sense of urgency becauseof my personal experience that
we needed to get his estateplanning done, an extreme sense
of urgency because I was it forhim, basically.
(15:33):
And my biggest fear was he wasgoing to be in a situation to
where I couldn't give him hisown money if he was
incapacitated.
So that sense of urgency, and Icall it a spidey sense, right?
Started in August of 2024.
And so I was on the hunt to findan estate planner or an agency
(15:58):
that could fulfill severalneeds: power of attorney,
executive, personalrepresentative, all of the
above.
It just dawned on me that one ofthe existing estate planning
attorneys that I was alreadyusing for a long time fulfilled
all those needs.
Her firm would fill in.
So his estate plan was done.
I believe it was November 26 of2024.
(16:20):
He got in a major car accidentin January of 2025.
And this is a real life example.
And so the attorney had to stepin.
It was this long process ofhelping him navigate this
window, and he recoveredsomewhat.
And to the point where this wasuncharted waters, even for me,
(16:44):
was that at that point he wasn'tin a death or dying situation.
But now you fast forward toOctober of 2025.
He is symptomatic of either lungor heart issues.
He goes to the hospital.
I call 911 for him, and he goesto the hospital.
He's now diagnosed with lungcancer.
(17:06):
He doesn't want any extenuatingcircumstances to prolong his
life.
And frankly, he doesn't evenwant to know the degree of the
lung cancer.
And now for me, with all of thisexperience that I have, to now
jump back into a situation towhere I'm caregiving for someone
that it was like my parents,very similar situation.
(17:29):
Meaning I had to jump back intothat situation, which I was
emotionally connected with thisgentleman for 20 years.
Now have to separate myfriendship with him to continue
my fiduciary responsibility andgather people around him to make
sure that he had the best caregoing forward.
He never returned home.
(17:50):
And so the estate planningattorney made decisions if he
were incapacitated during thattime frame and then inevitably
found a rehab facility, but ithad nursing home things related
and it could transition to that.
But you take me as a CFP, CEFP,and you transplant me now into
(18:13):
this position to where I'messentially caregiving again,
but for a client, because he hadno children and he had no one
really to make decisions for himother than the estate planning
attorney.
And I'm going to say that Istrong armed him to get this
done.
It really wasn't a strong arm.
He was just like, Chris, justtake care of it.
And I told him essentially, Ican't get you things unless you
(18:34):
have this paperwork in place.
And he's like, all right, let'sjust get it done.
But for me to take that positionand take it a step further, I'm
at the rehab facility.
He's not getting the best care.
And I know his wishes because heand I would talk on a regular
basis and he was very vocalabout, you know, what he wanted
or what he didn't want.
And so now I'm in a position,furthermore, to go to this rehab
(18:58):
facility and tell them thatthey're not doing their job and
be very vocal about that.
And then taking it a stepfurther to getting him a
companion that comes every day.
I'm not confident that mostadvisors would be able to step
in and do some of those things,nor want to do some of those
things.
(19:18):
So I'm going to transition now,and I think this is a good
transition to how you partnerwith advisors.
SPEAKER_04 (19:25):
Great question.
So I mean, I think you're rightin that.
And it's it sounds like you hada personal relationship with
that individual that we werekind of flipping between both
friend hat and financial plannerhat.
Sure.
And there was a an overlapsometimes wearing both hats at
the same time.
SPEAKER_00 (19:42):
Correct.
SPEAKER_04 (19:42):
Yeah.
And I don't think that there's asingle financial planner out
there who's doing this work fromjust the love of the impact that
we get to have in our people'slives that doesn't have that
sort of messy, unclear linebetween clients who are friends
and clients who are clients.
So it can be difficult todistinguish that.
(20:03):
But I think it's reallyimportant to also, as you did,
and to be able to articulatewhat hat are you wearing and
what are you trying toaccomplish when you're wearing
that hat?
And what are the kind of limitsof the role that you have in
that time?
So to your point about how Ipartner with financial planners,
yeah, I think because the waythat I've structured my
(20:23):
business, I am technically anRIA, a registered investment
advisory, but I'm advice only.
I do not manage assets, I do notdo long-term financial plans,
not in there for retirementplanning or education planning
for the kids.
I really am structured a bitmore like a coaching contract.
I do 16 sessions per engagementagreement over approximately 16
weeks.
So it's about a four-monthengagement agreement.
(20:46):
And my work is really meant tohelp stabilize a difficult
situation and to help a clientwho is in struggle.
So I think what commonly happensis a financial planner has a
great relationship with aclient.
They're engaged, they'reregularly saving, they're taking
the advice to varying degrees ofimplementation.
And all of a sudden thisdiagnosis comes and they stop
(21:09):
coming in for appointments, orthey get combative, or they get
really contradictory, where onemeeting they want this, and the
next meeting they want this.
And so their financial advisorfeels like they're chasing their
tail, running around trying toexecute a whole bunch of things
really fast with a client whodoesn't really know what they
want, their behavior isfundamentally shifted.
And most financial plannersaren't trained on how to or kind
(21:32):
of like aren't really groundedin how to work with clients who
are going through those types ofbehavioral changes in that way,
or cognitive changes.
So because I'm not competitionfor a financial planner, because
I'm not taking clients away fromthem, because a lot of financial
planners right now are gettingpaid for the assets they manage.
And since I don't do that, I'mnot gonna lure anybody away from
(21:54):
them.
But being able to partner with afinancial planner to help
support a client who's instruggle, to help them have The
client regulate and come back toa place of being grounded and
being able to make informeddecisions and to integrate the
experience that they're having,that requires a lot of effort
and it's a degree of time that alot of financial planners may
(22:15):
not have to be able to spendwith that type of a client while
they're also trying to doeverything that they do for
everybody else as well.
So for me to be able to partnerwith a planner who already has
all of the financial informationand has done the projections and
can really quickly modeldifferent scenarios and to be
able to execute insurance ortrades or whatever the case may
(22:36):
be, while I'm communicating backto the planner some of the
qualitative things that we'rediscussing and the reason and
the purpose and the focus andwhat we're doing, there's a
really nice partnership therewhere I'm supporting the
financial planner to be moreeffective at what they do with
the client who's in struggle andsupporting a client to feel like
they are not being pressured orto use your language,
strong-armed into doing anythingbefore they're ready to do it.
(22:59):
And, you know, I'll acknowledgethere's a delicate balance
between getting things executedwhile there's still time to do
it, and also not pushingsomebody to do things before
they're ready or fully, youknow, purchased and bought into
the idea of what's happening.
So that's how I work withfinancial planners.
And I believe that my primarysource of referrals will
actually come from otherfinancial planners rather than
(23:20):
direct marketing people in mydemographic of who I'm hoping to
work with because I can takesuch a huge burden off of a
financial planner's shoulders.
SPEAKER_00 (23:28):
So is it safe to say that your clients, so to speak,
are going to be financialplanners, or your clients are
going to be the clients offinancial planners that are in
this life-altering situation ora combination of both?
SPEAKER_04 (23:46):
No, it'll be the clients of financial planners
who are living with thediagnosis.
SPEAKER_00 (23:51):
Gotcha.
Okay.
SPEAKER_04 (23:52):
I could see a future world someday where my client is
the financial planner andthey're paying me to help them
do the work directly in kind ofconsulting capacity, but that's
not how I'm structured at themoment.
SPEAKER_00 (24:04):
Gotcha.
Okay.
And wanted to just make sure ofthat clarification because I
have received some questions interms of that, specifically in
some of the training that I havedone for some folks.
And so, again, that's a very,very unique aspect.
And I think it's a huge offerfor a financial planner.
I think when you had dimensionit said that maybe don't have
(24:26):
the capacity to do it.
And I'll venture to say there'ssome folks that don't want to do
it as well.
And so the capacity, maybe notthe right skill set, knowing
your own kind of weaknesses andopportunities, but have a good
heart and still want to do theright thing and maintain the
client structure.
I'm not one to curse, but that'sa huge, that's a heck of an
(24:47):
offer to help someone.
And I'll refrain refrain fromcursing on the podcast.
But I can just think of so manyfolks who have had a client that
was in a life-alteringsituation.
Actually, it was my firstconsulting client.
He had no idea what to do.
He had no idea, kind ofexpectation-wise, you know, how
(25:10):
to work with the client.
And it was just for him to havea situation to where he could
get some information.
And your engagement is great.
I think 16 weeks, if I'm notmistaken, is a great engagement
because you get a lot ofinformation.
(25:31):
The client and they can feel alot better as much as they can
be in a life-altering situation.
So the wheels are spinning.
And as I'm looking down to, Ididn't tell you this, but I was
taking notes.
And so, I mean, it's huge.
It is absolutely huge.
And I can also think of someadvisors who chose to opt out.
You have to know your ownstrengths and you know what your
(25:54):
limits are.
And opting out, I wouldn'tnecessarily say is a bad thing,
but if you're going to opt out,opt out and make sure the client
has a safe place to land.
SPEAKER_04 (26:04):
Correct.
Exactly.
And I think like putting the waythat I work with financial
planners in the same category asa CPA or an attorney or a coach
is a good way to think of mebecause I'm an augment to the
team.
And any one of us who's donefinancial planning for a long
time knows that we don't do thisin silos.
(26:24):
Unless a financial planner isalso a CPA and or is also an
attorney, those are things thatwe don't do.
We don't give tax advice, wedon't give legal advice.
And we just don't.
So we partner with people whodo.
And we kind of work as a team tosupport the client in this
holistic way.
I am somebody who exists on thatteam who brings a really unique
(26:45):
skill set and perspective tosupport the work of everybody
else on the team in the uniqueway that I do without taking
away from the importance ofanybody else on the team.
We're all essential players.
And I think to that end, mybusiness team was golden thread
collaborative.
And the reason why I chosecollaborative is the recognition
that we all know the phrase ittakes a village to raise a
(27:07):
child.
But the truth is that it alsotakes a village to exit the
world.
So a big focus of my work ismaking sure that my clients have
a village.
And if they're not coming to mewith that village already
established, of friends andfamily members and caregivers
and advocates and medical teamsand like financial
(27:28):
professionals, I have a team ofcollaborators who I have
personally vetted, who arelike-minded and like-hearted who
are ready to fill in those gapsand support that client in that
sort of a village team approach.
So that nobody has to do thisalone.
Nobody should have to go throughthis experience alone.
(27:49):
And the more wagons we cancircle around ourselves when
we're in a difficult situationlike this, the better off we're
gonna be.
So that's a big part of my workas well.
SPEAKER_00 (27:58):
I think it's interesting, and I'm gonna be a
little selfish here.
Yeah.
It's interesting since Stubrezeis what I call that gentleman,
my client, I have learned somuch after we did his estate
plan.
And I I could say I've probablybeen doing what I'm doing for
21, 22 years.
And in the last year and a half,I have arguably learned as much
(28:21):
about the transition of someonedoing their estate plan and
enacting the estate plan andtransitioning them through the
death process than I havelearned, arguably, about almost
anything in my career.
It was huge, it was veryfast-paced, and you had to think
on the fly and just figure somestuff out.
(28:42):
And you gain a lot ofinformation from that.
And from that, I've met somevery, very good people.
And I attribute that to beingvocal about that experience with
the client.
So you're in that camp.
I think the timing was very,very well.
Actually, my client passed awayon the Wednesday that we were in
(29:04):
the conference together.
SPEAKER_03 (29:05):
Oh, wow.
SPEAKER_00 (29:06):
And it just happened to be that we were doing an
expertise statement with anotherspeaker.
We were going through thatexercise, and my whole expertise
changed as of that Wednesday.
And then since then, you know,you and I got on a call.
Then I met, well, this wassomeone that I've already known,
(29:27):
but they had transitioned.
She's on a podcast, Child FirstTrust, talking about folks that
do not have children.
SPEAKER_04 (29:34):
Are you talking to Maddie?
SPEAKER_00 (29:36):
Yes.
Yeah.
I was talking to Maddie.
And so that was one of the notesthat I took.
And so I don't have to make thatintroduction now.
So talking to her about that,and I'm just like, man, that
would have been an easierprocess for me as an advisor to
have that availability too.
And as I'm writing a book, oractually the draft is finished.
(29:59):
I don't know if I had said thatto you.
So this season is kind ofdedicated to the launch of my
book.
But there are folks that I havemet and I have experiences that
I write about that would havemade my life easier and
inevitably the process for aclient easier.
(30:20):
And so I'm appreciative to meetyou and everything, you know,
all the knowledge that you have.
I'm excited to kind of partnerwith you kind of going forward
as well.
SPEAKER_04 (30:29):
Thank you.
I really appreciate that.
And I feel the same, Chris.
And I think what I find sointriguing about your work is
your business name, life aftergrief, right?
And just naming it, calling itwhat it is, and bringing it to a
central part of theconversation.
Because I think that there'sanother piece there that grief
along with death and money isalso a difficult thing for
(30:51):
people to deal with and talkabout.
And when, you know, myclientele, the people who have
the diagnosis, griefconversations and grief recovery
and grief support are typicallyfocused on after the loss.
But there's a lot of grief inthe room when you have the
diagnosis as well.
Because your life has justchanged.
And when there's a major change,there's usually grief associated
(31:12):
with it.
So working in that capacity tosupport people who are grieving
in an anticipatory way aboutwhat's coming.
And then also being able to makethe transition to working with
the people who are left behind,understanding that they're going
through a grief process as well.
That's a whole other realm wherefinancial planners are, again,
just humans and may or may notbe well positioned to deal with
(31:36):
that.
And so the service that you'redoing of working with clients
directly, but then also teachingother financial planners how to
be more skillful and effectiveat working with people who are
in grief.
Grief being a perfectly normal,natural and healthy
physiological response to loss.
It's a hard place to be.
And again, it's another thingthat we avoid.
(31:56):
So the way that you'resupporting people is truly
revolutionary and so necessary.
And a great continuationbecause, again, you know,
looking for partnerships andpeople who I'm interested in
collaborating with long term, myprimary work is with the person
who has the diagnosis and may bedying.
And I provide some limitedsupport for survivors.
I call it the Epilob service forlike the first six months after
(32:19):
death to be able to have someinitial support through the
estate administration process,the trustee process, just
initial grieving, kind ofreprocessing the death, giving
people an opportunity and a safeplace to talk about what's going
on.
But there's a lot of financialwork that needs to happen after
a death as well.
Everybody's estate plans need toget redone.
Insurance needs to getrevisited, bank accounts
(32:42):
retitled.
There's a lot of work, andthat's not my zone.
And so being able to partnerwith financial planners who I
know and trust to be able towork in a holistic,
compassionate way with peoplewho are in grief is really
important to me.
So I'm excited that you exist.
I'm excited that the network ofpeople who you have trained
exists and to know that that'sgrowing capacity within the
(33:04):
financial planning Arena.
SPEAKER_00 (33:06):
Sure.
Awesome.
Yeah, I'm I'm thinking about athousand things right now.
One of which the connection withMaddie Roach.
So she will be on a podcast thisseason.
Which is cool.
I had no idea that you both kneweach other.
What else you got for me?
SPEAKER_04 (33:21):
I'd ask a self-reflective question if
you're willing to share a littlebit about yourself.
SPEAKER_00 (33:26):
Sure.
SPEAKER_04 (33:26):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (33:27):
So one of if you're gonna ask me about myself.
SPEAKER_04 (33:32):
So one of the things that we commonly see as
professionals, you know, thataxiom that the cobbler's kids
have no shit.
SPEAKER_02 (33:39):
Sure.
SPEAKER_04 (33:40):
So just out of curiosity, if you died tomorrow,
what kind of a position wouldyour family be in?
Both from a logisticalperspective, but also from the
how you have communicated andprepared for an any day.
SPEAKER_00 (33:55):
See, I told you guys that Rose was smart.
So she's putting me on the spot,and I think she's already read
into my vulnerability.
So she's already she's no,you're asking that question
because she knows that I amgoing to answer.
If something were to happen tome, if we're gonna talk about
financially, because this is afinancial podcast, my family
would be taken care of.
I could not stand a situation towhere I went through all these
(34:19):
struggles financially as a kid,knowing what happened in my
family, specifically some of thedecisions that my father made to
have my family destitute.
And destitute is a wide range,right?
But my family would be takencare of financially.
From a logistics standpoint, asI am very, very detail-oriented,
(34:42):
and probably Amory hates thataspect of me by this point.
But logistically, my practicewould continue on.
And it took me a long time tofigure out or find a firm that
could step in in the event thatsomething were to happen to me.
That would be very, veryimportant to me.
(35:03):
I'm not going to go into toomuch detail about my estate
planning because you know that'sa little bit personal, but the
estate planning aspect is reallyno different than the
detail-oriented process of me.
And so I have preached to myfriend Hugh Brees what I wanted
him to do, and he allowed me todo that, and I practice that.
(35:25):
And so I think that's the kindof the end result of your
question.
Am I practicing what I preach?
And the answer is absolutelyyes.
I don't want anybody making adecision for me if I'm in a
state of incapacity.
I don't want to put that stressand I don't want to put that
burden on my wife.
That decision is mine, and thatdecision is mine alone.
(35:46):
I know firsthand the stress thatcomes along with that because my
mother and father didn't have aformal estate plan, but my mom
vocalized to me that she did notwant to be artificially kept
alive.
My dad, in being married to her,wanted to keep her artificially
alive.
And I stepped in and I said,Dad, that is not mom's wishes.
(36:07):
Again, I don't want any back andforth with anybody.
In that capacity, I've madeclear-cut decisions.
And through the estate plan, Iexpect those decisions to be
honored.
They have to be honored,actually, legally, they have to
be honored.
But that aspect is veryimportant to me to do things and
to preach what I have done forclients for a long time.
(36:29):
Because my father had thissaying, and this is mentioned in
my book, which is ironic.
He would always say, Do as Isay, but don't do as I do.
He would tell me the rightthings to do, but not
necessarily do them himself.
And my two boys, and I talkabout them a lot, are an
ultimate reflection of me.
They are my legacy.
(36:50):
And if I am giving them advicethat I'm not following, then I'm
a hypocrite.
And so that doesn't go foranyone else other than Chris
Dale, because I have a certainstandard that I live by.
And beyond that, my legacy isthem and the tools and the
things that I give them.
And I can tell you that I'mgiving them a lot of financial
(37:11):
tools.
And I'm not talking about givingthem dollars.
I'm giving them financial toolsthat I learned with a lot of
emotional baggage.
And so one of the things thatI've done for them is I've
really taught them the X's andO's of money, what that looks
like, how to budget, you know,effectively.
And my boys are 12 and 10 andthey have that skill set.
(37:33):
And then I transitioned them tothe electronic piece of that.
I was old school and wanted themto be able to count money, go to
the store and say, if, you know,I gave a$20 bill and the bill
was, you know,$10 and 11 cents,how much money are you supposed
to get back?
You should be able to do thatmath in your head, regardless if
you're good at math or not.
And so then I was at a confidentpoint where they could
(37:56):
transition and they have an appthat they use.
It's called Greenlight.
And man, it just blew my mind.
I can transfer money into theiraccount.
They can also invest in themarket.
And we invest and we talk aboutit.
And then they're all like littletutorials that teach them about
investing, credit versus debit,budgeting, future budgeting,
(38:16):
inflation, stuff that would takeme light years to carve out and
teach them.
And they're not going to getthat stuff in school.
So it's things like that.
It's a legacy.
And when you talk about buildingwealth for future generations,
this is a situation to where Ihave an opportunity to create
wealth for my futuregenerations.
(38:37):
And I'm not necessarily justtalking about, you know, four or
five generations having$2.
They have the tools to dowhatever they want.
They have the knowledge now todo what they want.
Now it's their decision whetherthey manage their own money well
or not, but they have definitelyhave will have the tools.
And it's cool to say that I hadan imprint on that.
You know, arguably my dad had animprint on that too.
(38:59):
Good, bad, or indifferent.
He was the one that kind ofstarted that for me.
And now I'm extending thatbecause I have all this other
financial knowledge.
And it's cool to kind of seethat.
So I hope that answers yourquestion.
SPEAKER_04 (39:11):
Yeah, it does.
Thank you for sharing that too.
So what I'm hearing from that isyou share that story and kind of
augmented in the background alittle bit because this morning
I was actually listening to theepisode where you talked about
finding out about your dad'sinfidelity the day that he died.
So having that background andunderstanding the way that you
grew up with money and how itwas a struggle and the
(39:33):
narratives that it created inyour life, and the way that you
saw your mom struggle to makeends meet for your family, and
you making a very consciousdecision that that was not going
to repeat, that that pattern andlegacy stopped with you.
And it was going to be adifferent story for your family.
So the value and importance yousee in not just the financial
(39:56):
security and the dollars andcents, but also the empowerment
around the money as well.
And knowing that you're raisingchildren who have literacy with
money and understand it from ayoung age and know how to
interact with it in a healthyway and have a healthy
relationship with money, whichis something that a lot of us
struggle with because very fewof us are taught how to do that.
(40:17):
The fact that you're teachingyour kids in a very purposeful
way is the exception, not thenorm.
And it tracks with theprofession that you have that
you would do that as well.
But there is that deeper rootand that reflection in your own
upbringing.
And I think so often we becomewho we are because of or in
spite of our parents.
And, you know, I hear flavors ofboth the because of and the in
spite of in your story and theway that you're doing things
(40:39):
differently for kids.
So yeah, that's a beautiful waythat you're intentionally going
about that.
SPEAKER_00 (40:44):
So there's one thing that you had mentioned in
regards to teaching my kidsabout money.
So one of the things that I didnot get growing up, because I
was always running because I wasscared of being in a destitute
situation, is when you go andyou do something and you
accomplish something.
Let's just say when I became aCEFT, and the natural course is
(41:07):
you stop and pause.
Not my natural course, you stopand pause, you reflect, and you
congratulate yourself for it.
That was not my norm.
My norm was, okay, well, you getthis, you accomplish this, you
keep moving because the bottomcould fall out.
You never know when the bottomcould fall out.
It wasn't until I taught myboys, and again, when I say I,
(41:30):
this is a combination ofAnne-Marie and I, taught our
boys to take pause in youraccomplishments.
And it was very hard for me todo that, but I saw them doing
that.
And I had to start doing thatfor myself.
And it was very hard becausethere was something that was
(41:52):
very foreign to me.
They'll accomplish something,and because they have their own
source of funds, they work evenat their age.
They'll stop and segregate moneyand say, I'm gonna save for this
goal or I'm gonna reward myselfthis way.
And I'm like, man, that ispretty cool to see that they are
rewarding themselves.
(42:12):
And so now when I accomplishsomething, I have to reward
myself and I want to rewardmyself.
And it's a complete change inmental philosophy for me because
I honestly felt that maybe Ididn't necessarily deserve the
reward, or I had to keep going.
(42:33):
It wasn't even a check mark.
It was just something in thecourse of my life I had to just
keep going because I was runningaway from something else.
And so you learn a lot throughraising kids.
I'm very fortunate because Ihave two very, very good boys
that are teaching me arguably asmuch about life as I'm probably
(42:54):
teaching them.
And so that's fun.
That's a fun dynamic to be ableto reflect on.
And so this is a kind of a funnystory.
So as I'm gonna finish this bookand it has its launch, I am
already thinking about what I'mgonna do to reward myself.
So we went to look at, well, Iwent to go look at something
with my brother.
I was like, I don't know if I'mgonna do that.
(43:15):
And then I'm just like, well, Iwould really enjoy something
that had a family component toit, something that we could all
enjoy.
And so I'm in that realm, butI'm already thinking about it
ahead of when this is gonna bedone.
And honestly, before that wouldhave been the last thing on my
mind.
It would have been justfinishing this book and going on
to the next episode of whateverelse comes my way.
But I'm already in that mode andI'm thinking about it of
(43:36):
enjoying this ride and thisjourney.
And that's all because of myboys.
That's awesome.
But thank you.
Thank you for asking that veryintrospective question, even
though you knew that I was gonnaanswer it.
SPEAKER_04 (43:48):
It's always interesting to hear people's
responses to that.
And they really vary and they'revery wide in responses.
SPEAKER_00 (43:54):
So as I've heard as well.
So cool.
What else have I not allowed?
SPEAKER_04 (44:00):
you to speak about that was a pretty big one i
wasn't expecting that one iappreciate you sharing i guess
the last thing or just kind ofas we kind of come to a close
here my website is a great placeto learn more about my business
and my work my philosophy myfocus is at deathinmoney.com
calling it what it is that'seasy yep if anybody who is
(44:22):
listening is in a situation ofbeing too young to be dealing
with a big scary diagnosis i dohave a a form on my website to
inquire about my services it'sjust uh kind of a quick intake
to understand where you are andI'm here and for financial
planners out there who arelistening who have younger
clients who are dealing with abig scary diagnosis and there to
(44:45):
support you as well.
So I'm looking forward to havingthis business in the world.
I've kind of used a birth andlabor and delivery metaphor for
this whole process is the theconception of the idea was three
and a half years ago and itgestated for a really long time.
And it wasn't until January of2025 that there was enough
clarity on what I wanted to doand how I was going to do it.
(45:06):
And that was by working with anextremely talented business
coach.
Can I give a shout out to mybusiness coach?
Sure you can absolutely it'sJoetta Johnson.
She's the priestess of financesfor business.
Oh okay so if anybody's in themarket for a unique approach to
business coaching I endorse her.
So yeah she helped me bring itinto clarity and that was kind
of like when hard labor beganand then working through the
(45:29):
launch and now you know thedelivery has happened when I got
the approval from the state ofMontana to go.
And now it kind of feels like Ihave this uh you know wrinkly,
squirmy, unformed, highlydependent thing in my hands
that's also while completelydependent on me, also its own
entity.
So I'm excited now to see howthis entity that I brought into
(45:49):
the world grows and how it takesits own form and the direction
that it pulls me.
And as you know with kids youcan't control them.
You can influence but you can'tcontrol they are their own
things.
I'm excited to see where thisbusiness goes and how it
transforms and how its ownpersonality is expressed and
with the influence I'm able tohave but not the control.
(46:12):
So here we go.
SPEAKER_00 (46:12):
Awesome well I'm excited for you very excited for
you.
So the information that you hadjust shared it will be in the
notes section of this podcast.
I'm gonna make sure and as anyguests you're gonna be
highlighted on here in how toget in contact with you.
And I appreciate you being on soum yes I learned a lot probably
have 10 lines of notes herealready.
(46:34):
So in the spirit of the podcastagain anyone that's listening
there is going to be a launch ofmy book at the end of April and
there will also be informationhow to join the launch list.
There's a lot of exciting thingsand I'm actually going to be
given a training in advance ofthe launch which is based on my
experience with Mr.
(46:55):
Hugh Breeze a very uniqueexperience.
For any friends family membersor colleagues please feel free
to pass this episode on alongwith any others that you feel
the need.
SPEAKER_01 (47:06):
Cheers be well thanks for listening to our
podcast if you are a client andare looking to work directly
with Chris andor our firm headon over to LifeAfter Grief FP.
That is life after grief FP.
The FP is for financialplanning.
If you are an advisor looking toemotionally and financially work
(47:30):
with your client in grief or ifyou are a client looking to get
your advisor's head in the gamehead on over to
lifeaftergriefconsulting dotcom.
That is lifeaftergriefconsultingdot com.
Any related informationreferenced in this week's
podcast will be located here inthe podcast section
Welcome to Real Talk with Life after Greek.
We talk about wealth and issuesas it relates to individuals in
grief, as they navigate financesand the advisors to help them.
We help clients in griefnavigate financial matters.
We also teach advisors how toemotionally and financially work
with clients in grief through anunparalleled process.
(00:24):
This week's podcast is sponsoredby Life After Grief Financial
Planning and Life After GriefConsulting.
SPEAKER_00 (00:31):
Hello and welcome back to another episode of Real
Talk with Life After GriefCrest.
In this episode, I have a prettycool guest, and there's going to
be a future episode kind ofdealing with death and things of
that nature.
But my friend here, RoseZealand, she's a unique
(00:53):
individual in that she is adeath duel, and I'm going to
promote her.
So she has just got her own firmoff the ground.
And I'm going to let her tellabout her own firm.
I'm not going to spill the beansthere.
But she and I became acquaintedas a result of being on a
committee for a it was aconference, and we are both
(01:13):
certified financialtransitionists.
So we were on kind of thesteering agenda committee for
that.
So as I came to know the folksthat were on the committee, I
realized that the folks on thecommittee were a lot smarter
than me.
Rose in that spectrum,especially when I started
speaking to her.
Not that I was intimidated, butI can immediately tell when I'm
(01:34):
speaking to someone howintelligent they are.
And as I've said too in thepast, that I kind of sit back
and observe people.
And Rose in particular struck mebecause I knew that I had to
have my A game when I wastalking to her because of the
fact that she is so highlyintelligent.
And I think that will definitelycome out while we are speaking.
(01:56):
So Rose's practice is prettyunique and it partners with
practices like mine or anyoneelse's.
And I'm gonna let her kind of gointo that.
In a traditional setting, apractice like mine, I have a
client, specifically a clientthat is in grief, and I build
them a financial plan.
And within that financial plan,it basically will earmark their
(02:19):
investments, retirement,insurance, anything under the
sun financially.
And that's not necessarily whatRose's practice does.
Rose, I'm gonna let you take itfrom here.
I'm gonna let you tell aboutyourself.
And I'm just gonna kind of sitback in awe as I have done in
(02:40):
the past.
SPEAKER_04 (02:40):
Thank you so much.
I appreciate it.
And uh I hope I hope I live upto the reputation it just gave
me.
Gave me a lot of credit there.
My name is Rose Zealand.
Just last week got the approvalfrom the state of Montana.
She launched my registeredinvestment advisory, my RIA.
Yeah.
It's a big deal.
I'm very excited.
And the official launch is thiscoming Sunday.
(03:01):
By the time this was released, Iwill have already been launched.
But just a little note about thelaunch date, which ties into the
story and the reason, thepurpose, the why behind my work.
So the launch date is Sunday,January 25th, which would have
been my dad's 65th birthday.
He died almost four years ago.
And it's really his death, hislife and death that has led me
(03:22):
to this moment and having thisbusiness.
My dad died just a few weeksafter his 61st birthday.
So he died too soon.
And it was my experience of hisdeath, my grief, and all the
changes that happened in my lifeafterwards that really prompted
me to be right here, right now,and are the screw line story of
(03:43):
why my business, Golden SwineCollaborative, exists.
I'm very excited to have theofficial launch date on what
would have been his 65thbirthday, because it feels like
a very full-circle moment in mylife and a really beautiful way
to honor and tribute my dad.
As you mentioned, I'm acertified financial planner.
I have a little over a decade ofexperience in financial
(04:04):
services, starting in propertyand casualty insurance, moving
to financial advising with amajor burger dealer, working in
independent space and now my ownfirm.
As you said, I'm also acertified financial
transitionist.
And I would assume your audienceknows what that is, but just to
reiterate, or in case there'ssomebody out there who's not
familiar with it, that is adesignation that's available to
people who are alreadyestablished financial
(04:26):
professionals, whether it's taxor legal or financial planning,
who spend an additional year oftraining and mentorship learning
how to support people who aregoing through major life
transition and all of thecognitive and emotional changes
and struggles that peoplecommonly go through when life is
turned upside down.
(04:47):
So it's very much focused on thehuman side and the behavioral
side of finance.
So I'm a certified financialplanner, a certified financial
transitionist, and I'm also adeath doula.
And that is the newestcredential or experience in my
life.
And it's a direct result of mydad's death as well.
Because one of the insights thatI had when my dad passed, and I
guess I should say here too,that 20-something years ago I
(05:09):
was a birth doula.
So I had been kind of at thebeginning of life and as an
witness to many lives cominginto the world.
When I was with my dad when hedied, with my hand on his chest,
as I felt his final heartbeatand felt his final breath leave
his body, I just had this momentwhere I was like, wow, death is
(05:31):
almost exactly like birth, justcompletely different.
There's there's a magic to themoment when somebody comes into
the world, and there's a magicto the moment when somebody
leaves.
And I don't know that mostpeople would assign that
description to death because itis usually shrouded in hardship
and loss and sadness and grief.
And that's all very real andtrue also.
(05:53):
But the exact moment of thattransition, there's a magic to
it for sure.
So yeah, experiencing that,reflecting that birth and death
were very similar, justcompletely different is what led
me to become a death jewel.
And along the way, I kind of hadthis insight where it's like,
you know what, I want to be aCFP death jewel because there's
there's gotta be a better way todo money and death.
(06:15):
Because culturally, money is ahard thing for a lot of people.
Death is a hard thing for a lotof people.
And when you put them togetherand they frequently go together,
sure, it can be a reallychallenging, even traumatic time
for people.
So I wanted to kind of create apath for that going easier.
It took me about three and ahalf years to figure out what it
(06:35):
could look like and what itmeant to be a CFP Death Doula.
And in the research that I'vedone, I haven't found anybody
else who's doing what I'm doingfrom the angle that I'm doing
it.
And I found multiple people whoare kind of in your zone of
working with people who arewidows or widowers or in the
space after loss and in thebrief space, but not so much the
(06:56):
specific focus on being withpeople who are living with the
diagnosis.
So my focus is on working withpeople in Colorado primarily who
are in their 40s and 50s, whohave been diagnosed with a
life-limiting illness orpotentially life-limiting
illness, and want support withthe financial, logistical,
(07:17):
emotional, and existentialchallenges of dying too soon.
So it's a very specific market.
And understanding that thisdemographic are likely in the
sandwich generation.
So people who have either youngkids or just you know, barely
launching young adult children,as well as potentially taking
care of parents, theirmid-stride in career, they're
(07:37):
really just a mid-stride in lifeand getting a hand-dealt of a
diagnosis that threatens to taketheir life significantly sooner
than anticipated.
It's one of those moments thatthere's life before the moment
of that diagnosis, and there'slife afterwards.
And it can feel powerless, itcan feel helpless, but there's
still a lot of choice, there'sstill a lot of influence that
(08:00):
people can have in a situationthat feels like there's no
control.
So that's really where I comein.
The three focus areas where Iwork are what I call money,
meaning, and mortality.
The money side are the practicalfinancial logistical components
of the financial dynamics thatshift after you get a diagnosis
like that.
Things like how your cash flowchanges, if you're not working
(08:21):
as much, so there's not as muchincome, and how do you
recalibrate to that and adjust?
How do you leverage existinginsurance resources, be it a
disability insurance policy,social security benefits,
potentially working its comp,depending on the source of the
diagnosis, living benefits oflife insurance policy?
Huge into estate planning andgetting really clear on what
(08:41):
your intentions are for thepeople who you love, how you
want to take care of them afteryou're gone.
Because that's fundamentally thewhy behind estate planning is
how do you want to take care ofthe people you love after you're
gone.
And in capacity planning aswell.
So making sure the intentionsare clarified and that the
logistics of the plan matchthose intentions.
This is a quick example of someof the financial side of lives.
(09:05):
On the mortality side, it's alot of education about the dying
process and understanding andhelping to normalize the
physiological changes thatthey're going through and
understand the options andchoices that they have as they
are living through thisdiagnosis and this chapter of
their life.
Non-medical forms of paincontrol, really thinking about
(09:26):
telling their story in a waythat they want to be remembered.
A huge part of Death Doola workis giving people the opportunity
to share the story of their lifewithout judgment, without rules,
without, you know, there's justan open platform for somebody to
say, this is who I am, this iswho I was, this is where I am
now.
(09:47):
So listening without judgmentand a tremendous amount of
compassion and capturing that ina way that can be carried on and
be told by people who are leftbehind.
And then there's the meaningpart of all of this too, of
helping people kind ofrecalibrate cognitively and
emotionally to the reality thatthey're living in now.
How do we adjust to what'shappening?
It's not what we want, but it'swhat's happening.
(10:08):
How do we let that go?
How do we let go ofresponsibility?
How do we ask for help?
How do we allow ourselves toreceive help?
What type of unfinished businessis out there that is important
to the person to try and wrapup?
And how far are they going to beable to get in that unfinished
business while they still havetime to get there?
So those are the types of realmsthat I go into.
SPEAKER_00 (10:29):
Well, I can say that since I've been doing this, I
have never met an individual ora firm that is as highly
specialized as you are.
I'm also thinking back to when Istarted my firm like you, there
was not another firm in thecontinental US, because I
(10:50):
researched it, that specificallydealt with clients that were in
a grief situation.
That was by design on my part.
And as I see forward for you, Ihave the benefit of looking back
to 2017.
A lot of the folks that have nowshown up in this space, I've met
a lot of those folks.
(11:11):
And I can't quantify how many ofthose folks that I've touched
and given advice to, but I cansay over the years, there are a
lot of folks that I havetouched, given advice to, or
formally trained, do what I do.
Um, I absolutely see that kindof going forward for you because
again, this is something thatI've not seen anybody else do.
It's a very unique space.
SPEAKER_04 (11:33):
Yeah, it is.
And I really appreciate thatreflection because when I think
about the scope of this work andwhat could be possible with it,
there's the level of impact onthe people I work with directly,
the people who are in their 40sand 50s and dying too soon.
But there's also the potentialimpact on the financial industry
itself and changing the way thatfinancial planners and advisors
(11:56):
work with people in thissituation.
Because here's the thing (11:58):
I mentioned earlier that
culturally death was a reallydifficult thing for many of us
to talk about, to acknowledge,to prepare for, to really sink
into what it means to maybe dietoo soon.
Or I think most of us arewilling to acknowledge that
we're going to die someday.
I think most people, yeah, I'mgonna die someday, obviously.
(12:21):
None of us get out of thisalive.
But I think most people are alsowilling to acknowledge that
someday can be any day, becausewe all talk about the proverbial
bus and you know getting hit bythe train and whatever.
But we tend to be glib aboutthat.
SPEAKER_03 (12:35):
Right.
SPEAKER_04 (12:35):
And also not take it very seriously because those
things are very, very true.
So, what does it mean toactually drop into preparing for
the someday that could be anyday?
Because doing so requires atremendous amount of courage on
the part of the individual who'sgoing there because it's gonna
(12:56):
stir up sadness.
You think about one of theexercises that we do in Death
Door training is thisvisualization where we're asked
to kind of drop into your lifeexactly as it exists today with
the people who you love in it,exactly who you have right now,
all the circumstances of yourcareer, your children, your
friends, your plans that you'relooking forward to, and you're
(13:19):
dying.
Everything's the same except nowyou've got maybe three months
left to live.
And really going through whatare the emotional implications
of that and dropping in thefeelings of getting in that
situation and working throughit.
It takes a lot of courage to dothat.
And that's what we touch on whenwe're asked to do things like
our estate plan and ourincapacity planning.
(13:40):
And that's why it's so difficultfor a lot of people, because
having to face the reality ofhow sad or angry or heartbroken
or hopeless or helpless thatthey would feel if that were
their situation is a huge blockto doing it.
Because financial planners arejust human beings.
SPEAKER_02 (13:57):
Sure.
We're humans, yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (14:00):
Humans, financial planners struggle with that for
themselves as well, even thoughon a daily basis we're
constantly advising people to dotheir own plans, but we have a
difficulty with that as well.
And we also have, just as humanbeings, a lot of uncertainty
around how to support people whoare in that situation.
What do you say?
What do you say to somebodywho's got stage four cancer
(14:20):
where there's no cure or there'sno curative treatment?
It's something that they canprolong life, but they're not
gonna get rid of, you know, I'msorry, that sucks.
There's a lot of things thatwe're sort of conditioned to say
that aren't particularlyhelpful.
What we do as platitudes.
And so, yeah, helping financialplanners, helping the financial
(14:41):
industry as a whole understandhow to work with people in this
situation, how to work withdeath and dying in a more
compassionate and holistic way.
That's one of the things that Ihope my work does over time.
SPEAKER_00 (14:52):
I have a scenario for you.
Yeah.
And I think we briefly touchedon this.
I'm going to place Chris Daleoutside of this spectrum, but
I'm going to give this real lifeexample that I just went
through.
Again, I'm going to separatemyself because my skill set is
unique.
And so, say that you have aclient, and the client that I
had, I called him Hugh Breeze,and I brought him up on several
(15:12):
episodes.
He passed away in November.
And the unique situation withhim was that we had just got his
estate planning done a year agoin November.
I had a sense of urgency becauseof my personal experience that
we needed to get his estateplanning done, an extreme sense
of urgency because I was it forhim, basically.
(15:33):
And my biggest fear was he wasgoing to be in a situation to
where I couldn't give him hisown money if he was
incapacitated.
So that sense of urgency, and Icall it a spidey sense, right?
Started in August of 2024.
And so I was on the hunt to findan estate planner or an agency
(15:58):
that could fulfill severalneeds: power of attorney,
executive, personalrepresentative, all of the
above.
It just dawned on me that one ofthe existing estate planning
attorneys that I was alreadyusing for a long time fulfilled
all those needs.
Her firm would fill in.
So his estate plan was done.
I believe it was November 26 of2024.
(16:20):
He got in a major car accidentin January of 2025.
And this is a real life example.
And so the attorney had to stepin.
It was this long process ofhelping him navigate this
window, and he recoveredsomewhat.
And to the point where this wasuncharted waters, even for me,
(16:44):
was that at that point he wasn'tin a death or dying situation.
But now you fast forward toOctober of 2025.
He is symptomatic of either lungor heart issues.
He goes to the hospital.
I call 911 for him, and he goesto the hospital.
He's now diagnosed with lungcancer.
(17:06):
He doesn't want any extenuatingcircumstances to prolong his
life.
And frankly, he doesn't evenwant to know the degree of the
lung cancer.
And now for me, with all of thisexperience that I have, to now
jump back into a situation towhere I'm caregiving for someone
that it was like my parents,very similar situation.
(17:29):
Meaning I had to jump back intothat situation, which I was
emotionally connected with thisgentleman for 20 years.
Now have to separate myfriendship with him to continue
my fiduciary responsibility andgather people around him to make
sure that he had the best caregoing forward.
He never returned home.
(17:50):
And so the estate planningattorney made decisions if he
were incapacitated during thattime frame and then inevitably
found a rehab facility, but ithad nursing home things related
and it could transition to that.
But you take me as a CFP, CEFP,and you transplant me now into
(18:13):
this position to where I'messentially caregiving again,
but for a client, because he hadno children and he had no one
really to make decisions for himother than the estate planning
attorney.
And I'm going to say that Istrong armed him to get this
done.
It really wasn't a strong arm.
He was just like, Chris, justtake care of it.
And I told him essentially, Ican't get you things unless you
(18:34):
have this paperwork in place.
And he's like, all right, let'sjust get it done.
But for me to take that positionand take it a step further, I'm
at the rehab facility.
He's not getting the best care.
And I know his wishes because heand I would talk on a regular
basis and he was very vocalabout, you know, what he wanted
or what he didn't want.
And so now I'm in a position,furthermore, to go to this rehab
(18:58):
facility and tell them thatthey're not doing their job and
be very vocal about that.
And then taking it a stepfurther to getting him a
companion that comes every day.
I'm not confident that mostadvisors would be able to step
in and do some of those things,nor want to do some of those
things.
(19:18):
So I'm going to transition now,and I think this is a good
transition to how you partnerwith advisors.
SPEAKER_04 (19:25):
Great question.
So I mean, I think you're rightin that.
And it's it sounds like you hada personal relationship with
that individual that we werekind of flipping between both
friend hat and financial plannerhat.
Sure.
And there was a an overlapsometimes wearing both hats at
the same time.
SPEAKER_00 (19:42):
Correct.
SPEAKER_04 (19:42):
Yeah.
And I don't think that there's asingle financial planner out
there who's doing this work fromjust the love of the impact that
we get to have in our people'slives that doesn't have that
sort of messy, unclear linebetween clients who are friends
and clients who are clients.
So it can be difficult todistinguish that.
(20:03):
But I think it's reallyimportant to also, as you did,
and to be able to articulatewhat hat are you wearing and
what are you trying toaccomplish when you're wearing
that hat?
And what are the kind of limitsof the role that you have in
that time?
So to your point about how Ipartner with financial planners,
yeah, I think because the waythat I've structured my
(20:23):
business, I am technically anRIA, a registered investment
advisory, but I'm advice only.
I do not manage assets, I do notdo long-term financial plans,
not in there for retirementplanning or education planning
for the kids.
I really am structured a bitmore like a coaching contract.
I do 16 sessions per engagementagreement over approximately 16
weeks.
So it's about a four-monthengagement agreement.
(20:46):
And my work is really meant tohelp stabilize a difficult
situation and to help a clientwho is in struggle.
So I think what commonly happensis a financial planner has a
great relationship with aclient.
They're engaged, they'reregularly saving, they're taking
the advice to varying degrees ofimplementation.
And all of a sudden thisdiagnosis comes and they stop
(21:09):
coming in for appointments, orthey get combative, or they get
really contradictory, where onemeeting they want this, and the
next meeting they want this.
And so their financial advisorfeels like they're chasing their
tail, running around trying toexecute a whole bunch of things
really fast with a client whodoesn't really know what they
want, their behavior isfundamentally shifted.
And most financial plannersaren't trained on how to or kind
(21:32):
of like aren't really groundedin how to work with clients who
are going through those types ofbehavioral changes in that way,
or cognitive changes.
So because I'm not competitionfor a financial planner, because
I'm not taking clients away fromthem, because a lot of financial
planners right now are gettingpaid for the assets they manage.
And since I don't do that, I'mnot gonna lure anybody away from
(21:54):
them.
But being able to partner with afinancial planner to help
support a client who's instruggle, to help them have The
client regulate and come back toa place of being grounded and
being able to make informeddecisions and to integrate the
experience that they're having,that requires a lot of effort
and it's a degree of time that alot of financial planners may
(22:15):
not have to be able to spendwith that type of a client while
they're also trying to doeverything that they do for
everybody else as well.
So for me to be able to partnerwith a planner who already has
all of the financial informationand has done the projections and
can really quickly modeldifferent scenarios and to be
able to execute insurance ortrades or whatever the case may
(22:36):
be, while I'm communicating backto the planner some of the
qualitative things that we'rediscussing and the reason and
the purpose and the focus andwhat we're doing, there's a
really nice partnership therewhere I'm supporting the
financial planner to be moreeffective at what they do with
the client who's in struggle andsupporting a client to feel like
they are not being pressured orto use your language,
strong-armed into doing anythingbefore they're ready to do it.
(22:59):
And, you know, I'll acknowledgethere's a delicate balance
between getting things executedwhile there's still time to do
it, and also not pushingsomebody to do things before
they're ready or fully, youknow, purchased and bought into
the idea of what's happening.
So that's how I work withfinancial planners.
And I believe that my primarysource of referrals will
actually come from otherfinancial planners rather than
(23:20):
direct marketing people in mydemographic of who I'm hoping to
work with because I can takesuch a huge burden off of a
financial planner's shoulders.
SPEAKER_00 (23:28):
So is it safe to say that your clients, so to speak,
are going to be financialplanners, or your clients are
going to be the clients offinancial planners that are in
this life-altering situation ora combination of both?
SPEAKER_04 (23:46):
No, it'll be the clients of financial planners
who are living with thediagnosis.
SPEAKER_00 (23:51):
Gotcha.
Okay.
SPEAKER_04 (23:52):
I could see a future world someday where my client is
the financial planner andthey're paying me to help them
do the work directly in kind ofconsulting capacity, but that's
not how I'm structured at themoment.
SPEAKER_00 (24:04):
Gotcha.
Okay.
And wanted to just make sure ofthat clarification because I
have received some questions interms of that, specifically in
some of the training that I havedone for some folks.
And so, again, that's a very,very unique aspect.
And I think it's a huge offerfor a financial planner.
I think when you had dimensionit said that maybe don't have
(24:26):
the capacity to do it.
And I'll venture to say there'ssome folks that don't want to do
it as well.
And so the capacity, maybe notthe right skill set, knowing
your own kind of weaknesses andopportunities, but have a good
heart and still want to do theright thing and maintain the
client structure.
I'm not one to curse, but that'sa huge, that's a heck of an
(24:47):
offer to help someone.
And I'll refrain refrain fromcursing on the podcast.
But I can just think of so manyfolks who have had a client that
was in a life-alteringsituation.
Actually, it was my firstconsulting client.
He had no idea what to do.
He had no idea, kind ofexpectation-wise, you know, how
(25:10):
to work with the client.
And it was just for him to havea situation to where he could
get some information.
And your engagement is great.
I think 16 weeks, if I'm notmistaken, is a great engagement
because you get a lot ofinformation.
(25:31):
The client and they can feel alot better as much as they can
be in a life-altering situation.
So the wheels are spinning.
And as I'm looking down to, Ididn't tell you this, but I was
taking notes.
And so, I mean, it's huge.
It is absolutely huge.
And I can also think of someadvisors who chose to opt out.
You have to know your ownstrengths and you know what your
(25:54):
limits are.
And opting out, I wouldn'tnecessarily say is a bad thing,
but if you're going to opt out,opt out and make sure the client
has a safe place to land.
SPEAKER_04 (26:04):
Correct.
Exactly.
And I think like putting the waythat I work with financial
planners in the same category asa CPA or an attorney or a coach
is a good way to think of mebecause I'm an augment to the
team.
And any one of us who's donefinancial planning for a long
time knows that we don't do thisin silos.
(26:24):
Unless a financial planner isalso a CPA and or is also an
attorney, those are things thatwe don't do.
We don't give tax advice, wedon't give legal advice.
And we just don't.
So we partner with people whodo.
And we kind of work as a team tosupport the client in this
holistic way.
I am somebody who exists on thatteam who brings a really unique
(26:45):
skill set and perspective tosupport the work of everybody
else on the team in the uniqueway that I do without taking
away from the importance ofanybody else on the team.
We're all essential players.
And I think to that end, mybusiness team was golden thread
collaborative.
And the reason why I chosecollaborative is the recognition
that we all know the phrase ittakes a village to raise a
(27:07):
child.
But the truth is that it alsotakes a village to exit the
world.
So a big focus of my work ismaking sure that my clients have
a village.
And if they're not coming to mewith that village already
established, of friends andfamily members and caregivers
and advocates and medical teamsand like financial
(27:28):
professionals, I have a team ofcollaborators who I have
personally vetted, who arelike-minded and like-hearted who
are ready to fill in those gapsand support that client in that
sort of a village team approach.
So that nobody has to do thisalone.
Nobody should have to go throughthis experience alone.
(27:49):
And the more wagons we cancircle around ourselves when
we're in a difficult situationlike this, the better off we're
gonna be.
So that's a big part of my workas well.
SPEAKER_00 (27:58):
I think it's interesting, and I'm gonna be a
little selfish here.
Yeah.
It's interesting since Stubrezeis what I call that gentleman,
my client, I have learned somuch after we did his estate
plan.
And I I could say I've probablybeen doing what I'm doing for
21, 22 years.
And in the last year and a half,I have arguably learned as much
(28:21):
about the transition of someonedoing their estate plan and
enacting the estate plan andtransitioning them through the
death process than I havelearned, arguably, about almost
anything in my career.
It was huge, it was veryfast-paced, and you had to think
on the fly and just figure somestuff out.
(28:42):
And you gain a lot ofinformation from that.
And from that, I've met somevery, very good people.
And I attribute that to beingvocal about that experience with
the client.
So you're in that camp.
I think the timing was very,very well.
Actually, my client passed awayon the Wednesday that we were in
(29:04):
the conference together.
SPEAKER_03 (29:05):
Oh, wow.
SPEAKER_00 (29:06):
And it just happened to be that we were doing an
expertise statement with anotherspeaker.
We were going through thatexercise, and my whole expertise
changed as of that Wednesday.
And then since then, you know,you and I got on a call.
Then I met, well, this wassomeone that I've already known,
(29:27):
but they had transitioned.
She's on a podcast, Child FirstTrust, talking about folks that
do not have children.
SPEAKER_04 (29:34):
Are you talking to Maddie?
SPEAKER_00 (29:36):
Yes.
Yeah.
I was talking to Maddie.
And so that was one of the notesthat I took.
And so I don't have to make thatintroduction now.
So talking to her about that,and I'm just like, man, that
would have been an easierprocess for me as an advisor to
have that availability too.
And as I'm writing a book, oractually the draft is finished.
(29:59):
I don't know if I had said thatto you.
So this season is kind ofdedicated to the launch of my
book.
But there are folks that I havemet and I have experiences that
I write about that would havemade my life easier and
inevitably the process for aclient easier.
(30:20):
And so I'm appreciative to meetyou and everything, you know,
all the knowledge that you have.
I'm excited to kind of partnerwith you kind of going forward
as well.
SPEAKER_04 (30:29):
Thank you.
I really appreciate that.
And I feel the same, Chris.
And I think what I find sointriguing about your work is
your business name, life aftergrief, right?
And just naming it, calling itwhat it is, and bringing it to a
central part of theconversation.
Because I think that there'sanother piece there that grief
along with death and money isalso a difficult thing for
(30:51):
people to deal with and talkabout.
And when, you know, myclientele, the people who have
the diagnosis, griefconversations and grief recovery
and grief support are typicallyfocused on after the loss.
But there's a lot of grief inthe room when you have the
diagnosis as well.
Because your life has justchanged.
And when there's a major change,there's usually grief associated
(31:12):
with it.
So working in that capacity tosupport people who are grieving
in an anticipatory way aboutwhat's coming.
And then also being able to makethe transition to working with
the people who are left behind,understanding that they're going
through a grief process as well.
That's a whole other realm wherefinancial planners are, again,
just humans and may or may notbe well positioned to deal with
(31:36):
that.
And so the service that you'redoing of working with clients
directly, but then also teachingother financial planners how to
be more skillful and effectiveat working with people who are
in grief.
Grief being a perfectly normal,natural and healthy
physiological response to loss.
It's a hard place to be.
And again, it's another thingthat we avoid.
(31:56):
So the way that you'resupporting people is truly
revolutionary and so necessary.
And a great continuationbecause, again, you know,
looking for partnerships andpeople who I'm interested in
collaborating with long term, myprimary work is with the person
who has the diagnosis and may bedying.
And I provide some limitedsupport for survivors.
I call it the Epilob service forlike the first six months after
(32:19):
death to be able to have someinitial support through the
estate administration process,the trustee process, just
initial grieving, kind ofreprocessing the death, giving
people an opportunity and a safeplace to talk about what's going
on.
But there's a lot of financialwork that needs to happen after
a death as well.
Everybody's estate plans need toget redone.
Insurance needs to getrevisited, bank accounts
(32:42):
retitled.
There's a lot of work, andthat's not my zone.
And so being able to partnerwith financial planners who I
know and trust to be able towork in a holistic,
compassionate way with peoplewho are in grief is really
important to me.
So I'm excited that you exist.
I'm excited that the network ofpeople who you have trained
exists and to know that that'sgrowing capacity within the
(33:04):
financial planning Arena.
SPEAKER_00 (33:06):
Sure.
Awesome.
Yeah, I'm I'm thinking about athousand things right now.
One of which the connection withMaddie Roach.
So she will be on a podcast thisseason.
Which is cool.
I had no idea that you both kneweach other.
What else you got for me?
SPEAKER_04 (33:21):
I'd ask a self-reflective question if
you're willing to share a littlebit about yourself.
SPEAKER_00 (33:26):
Sure.
SPEAKER_04 (33:26):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (33:27):
So one of if you're gonna ask me about myself.
SPEAKER_04 (33:32):
So one of the things that we commonly see as
professionals, you know, thataxiom that the cobbler's kids
have no shit.
SPEAKER_02 (33:39):
Sure.
SPEAKER_04 (33:40):
So just out of curiosity, if you died tomorrow,
what kind of a position wouldyour family be in?
Both from a logisticalperspective, but also from the
how you have communicated andprepared for an any day.
SPEAKER_00 (33:55):
See, I told you guys that Rose was smart.
So she's putting me on the spot,and I think she's already read
into my vulnerability.
So she's already she's no,you're asking that question
because she knows that I amgoing to answer.
If something were to happen tome, if we're gonna talk about
financially, because this is afinancial podcast, my family
would be taken care of.
I could not stand a situation towhere I went through all these
(34:19):
struggles financially as a kid,knowing what happened in my
family, specifically some of thedecisions that my father made to
have my family destitute.
And destitute is a wide range,right?
But my family would be takencare of financially.
From a logistics standpoint, asI am very, very detail-oriented,
(34:42):
and probably Amory hates thataspect of me by this point.
But logistically, my practicewould continue on.
And it took me a long time tofigure out or find a firm that
could step in in the event thatsomething were to happen to me.
That would be very, veryimportant to me.
(35:03):
I'm not going to go into toomuch detail about my estate
planning because you know that'sa little bit personal, but the
estate planning aspect is reallyno different than the
detail-oriented process of me.
And so I have preached to myfriend Hugh Brees what I wanted
him to do, and he allowed me todo that, and I practice that.
(35:25):
And so I think that's the kindof the end result of your
question.
Am I practicing what I preach?
And the answer is absolutelyyes.
I don't want anybody making adecision for me if I'm in a
state of incapacity.
I don't want to put that stressand I don't want to put that
burden on my wife.
That decision is mine, and thatdecision is mine alone.
(35:46):
I know firsthand the stress thatcomes along with that because my
mother and father didn't have aformal estate plan, but my mom
vocalized to me that she did notwant to be artificially kept
alive.
My dad, in being married to her,wanted to keep her artificially
alive.
And I stepped in and I said,Dad, that is not mom's wishes.
(36:07):
Again, I don't want any back andforth with anybody.
In that capacity, I've madeclear-cut decisions.
And through the estate plan, Iexpect those decisions to be
honored.
They have to be honored,actually, legally, they have to
be honored.
But that aspect is veryimportant to me to do things and
to preach what I have done forclients for a long time.
(36:29):
Because my father had thissaying, and this is mentioned in
my book, which is ironic.
He would always say, Do as Isay, but don't do as I do.
He would tell me the rightthings to do, but not
necessarily do them himself.
And my two boys, and I talkabout them a lot, are an
ultimate reflection of me.
They are my legacy.
(36:50):
And if I am giving them advicethat I'm not following, then I'm
a hypocrite.
And so that doesn't go foranyone else other than Chris
Dale, because I have a certainstandard that I live by.
And beyond that, my legacy isthem and the tools and the
things that I give them.
And I can tell you that I'mgiving them a lot of financial
(37:11):
tools.
And I'm not talking about givingthem dollars.
I'm giving them financial toolsthat I learned with a lot of
emotional baggage.
And so one of the things thatI've done for them is I've
really taught them the X's andO's of money, what that looks
like, how to budget, you know,effectively.
And my boys are 12 and 10 andthey have that skill set.
(37:33):
And then I transitioned them tothe electronic piece of that.
I was old school and wanted themto be able to count money, go to
the store and say, if, you know,I gave a$20 bill and the bill
was, you know,$10 and 11 cents,how much money are you supposed
to get back?
You should be able to do thatmath in your head, regardless if
you're good at math or not.
And so then I was at a confidentpoint where they could
(37:56):
transition and they have an appthat they use.
It's called Greenlight.
And man, it just blew my mind.
I can transfer money into theiraccount.
They can also invest in themarket.
And we invest and we talk aboutit.
And then they're all like littletutorials that teach them about
investing, credit versus debit,budgeting, future budgeting,
(38:16):
inflation, stuff that would takeme light years to carve out and
teach them.
And they're not going to getthat stuff in school.
So it's things like that.
It's a legacy.
And when you talk about buildingwealth for future generations,
this is a situation to where Ihave an opportunity to create
wealth for my futuregenerations.
(38:37):
And I'm not necessarily justtalking about, you know, four or
five generations having$2.
They have the tools to dowhatever they want.
They have the knowledge now todo what they want.
Now it's their decision whetherthey manage their own money well
or not, but they have definitelyhave will have the tools.
And it's cool to say that I hadan imprint on that.
You know, arguably my dad had animprint on that too.
(38:59):
Good, bad, or indifferent.
He was the one that kind ofstarted that for me.
And now I'm extending thatbecause I have all this other
financial knowledge.
And it's cool to kind of seethat.
So I hope that answers yourquestion.
SPEAKER_04 (39:11):
Yeah, it does.
Thank you for sharing that too.
So what I'm hearing from that isyou share that story and kind of
augmented in the background alittle bit because this morning
I was actually listening to theepisode where you talked about
finding out about your dad'sinfidelity the day that he died.
So having that background andunderstanding the way that you
grew up with money and how itwas a struggle and the
(39:33):
narratives that it created inyour life, and the way that you
saw your mom struggle to makeends meet for your family, and
you making a very consciousdecision that that was not going
to repeat, that that pattern andlegacy stopped with you.
And it was going to be adifferent story for your family.
So the value and importance yousee in not just the financial
(39:56):
security and the dollars andcents, but also the empowerment
around the money as well.
And knowing that you're raisingchildren who have literacy with
money and understand it from ayoung age and know how to
interact with it in a healthyway and have a healthy
relationship with money, whichis something that a lot of us
struggle with because very fewof us are taught how to do that.
(40:17):
The fact that you're teachingyour kids in a very purposeful
way is the exception, not thenorm.
And it tracks with theprofession that you have that
you would do that as well.
But there is that deeper rootand that reflection in your own
upbringing.
And I think so often we becomewho we are because of or in
spite of our parents.
And, you know, I hear flavors ofboth the because of and the in
spite of in your story and theway that you're doing things
(40:39):
differently for kids.
So yeah, that's a beautiful waythat you're intentionally going
about that.
SPEAKER_00 (40:44):
So there's one thing that you had mentioned in
regards to teaching my kidsabout money.
So one of the things that I didnot get growing up, because I
was always running because I wasscared of being in a destitute
situation, is when you go andyou do something and you
accomplish something.
Let's just say when I became aCEFT, and the natural course is
(41:07):
you stop and pause.
Not my natural course, you stopand pause, you reflect, and you
congratulate yourself for it.
That was not my norm.
My norm was, okay, well, you getthis, you accomplish this, you
keep moving because the bottomcould fall out.
You never know when the bottomcould fall out.
It wasn't until I taught myboys, and again, when I say I,
(41:30):
this is a combination ofAnne-Marie and I, taught our
boys to take pause in youraccomplishments.
And it was very hard for me todo that, but I saw them doing
that.
And I had to start doing thatfor myself.
And it was very hard becausethere was something that was
(41:52):
very foreign to me.
They'll accomplish something,and because they have their own
source of funds, they work evenat their age.
They'll stop and segregate moneyand say, I'm gonna save for this
goal or I'm gonna reward myselfthis way.
And I'm like, man, that ispretty cool to see that they are
rewarding themselves.
(42:12):
And so now when I accomplishsomething, I have to reward
myself and I want to rewardmyself.
And it's a complete change inmental philosophy for me because
I honestly felt that maybe Ididn't necessarily deserve the
reward, or I had to keep going.
(42:33):
It wasn't even a check mark.
It was just something in thecourse of my life I had to just
keep going because I was runningaway from something else.
And so you learn a lot throughraising kids.
I'm very fortunate because Ihave two very, very good boys
that are teaching me arguably asmuch about life as I'm probably
(42:54):
teaching them.
And so that's fun.
That's a fun dynamic to be ableto reflect on.
And so this is a kind of a funnystory.
So as I'm gonna finish this bookand it has its launch, I am
already thinking about what I'mgonna do to reward myself.
So we went to look at, well, Iwent to go look at something
with my brother.
I was like, I don't know if I'mgonna do that.
(43:15):
And then I'm just like, well, Iwould really enjoy something
that had a family component toit, something that we could all
enjoy.
And so I'm in that realm, butI'm already thinking about it
ahead of when this is gonna bedone.
And honestly, before that wouldhave been the last thing on my
mind.
It would have been justfinishing this book and going on
to the next episode of whateverelse comes my way.
But I'm already in that mode andI'm thinking about it of
(43:36):
enjoying this ride and thisjourney.
And that's all because of myboys.
That's awesome.
But thank you.
Thank you for asking that veryintrospective question, even
though you knew that I was gonnaanswer it.
SPEAKER_04 (43:48):
It's always interesting to hear people's
responses to that.
And they really vary and they'revery wide in responses.
SPEAKER_00 (43:54):
So as I've heard as well.
So cool.
What else have I not allowed?
SPEAKER_04 (44:00):
you to speak about that was a pretty big one i
wasn't expecting that one iappreciate you sharing i guess
the last thing or just kind ofas we kind of come to a close
here my website is a great placeto learn more about my business
and my work my philosophy myfocus is at deathinmoney.com
calling it what it is that'seasy yep if anybody who is
(44:22):
listening is in a situation ofbeing too young to be dealing
with a big scary diagnosis i dohave a a form on my website to
inquire about my services it'sjust uh kind of a quick intake
to understand where you are andI'm here and for financial
planners out there who arelistening who have younger
clients who are dealing with abig scary diagnosis and there to
(44:45):
support you as well.
So I'm looking forward to havingthis business in the world.
I've kind of used a birth andlabor and delivery metaphor for
this whole process is the theconception of the idea was three
and a half years ago and itgestated for a really long time.
And it wasn't until January of2025 that there was enough
clarity on what I wanted to doand how I was going to do it.
(45:06):
And that was by working with anextremely talented business
coach.
Can I give a shout out to mybusiness coach?
Sure you can absolutely it'sJoetta Johnson.
She's the priestess of financesfor business.
Oh okay so if anybody's in themarket for a unique approach to
business coaching I endorse her.
So yeah she helped me bring itinto clarity and that was kind
of like when hard labor beganand then working through the
(45:29):
launch and now you know thedelivery has happened when I got
the approval from the state ofMontana to go.
And now it kind of feels like Ihave this uh you know wrinkly,
squirmy, unformed, highlydependent thing in my hands
that's also while completelydependent on me, also its own
entity.
So I'm excited now to see howthis entity that I brought into
(45:49):
the world grows and how it takesits own form and the direction
that it pulls me.
And as you know with kids youcan't control them.
You can influence but you can'tcontrol they are their own
things.
I'm excited to see where thisbusiness goes and how it
transforms and how its ownpersonality is expressed and
with the influence I'm able tohave but not the control.
(46:12):
So here we go.
SPEAKER_00 (46:12):
Awesome well I'm excited for you very excited for
you.
So the information that you hadjust shared it will be in the
notes section of this podcast.
I'm gonna make sure and as anyguests you're gonna be
highlighted on here in how toget in contact with you.
And I appreciate you being on soum yes I learned a lot probably
have 10 lines of notes herealready.
(46:34):
So in the spirit of the podcastagain anyone that's listening
there is going to be a launch ofmy book at the end of April and
there will also be informationhow to join the launch list.
There's a lot of exciting thingsand I'm actually going to be
given a training in advance ofthe launch which is based on my
experience with Mr.
(46:55):
Hugh Breeze a very uniqueexperience.
For any friends family membersor colleagues please feel free
to pass this episode on alongwith any others that you feel
the need.
SPEAKER_01 (47:06):
Cheers be well thanks for listening to our
podcast if you are a client andare looking to work directly
with Chris andor our firm headon over to LifeAfter Grief FP.
That is life after grief FP.
The FP is for financialplanning.
If you are an advisor looking toemotionally and financially work
(47:30):
with your client in grief or ifyou are a client looking to get
your advisor's head in the gamehead on over to
lifeaftergriefconsulting dotcom.
That is lifeaftergriefconsultingdot com.
Any related informationreferenced in this week's
podcast will be located here inthe podcast section
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