From Grief to Justice on Death Row: Sophia Laurenzi’s Journey

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We share Sophia Lorenzi’s path from losing her father to suicide to investigating death row cases, tracing how grief, stigma, trauma, and systems shape lives. The heart of the talk: seeing people fully, not as problems to fix, and building care long before crisis.

• how invisible crisis can exist alongside visible treatment
• rising suicide rates despite reduced stigma and why access still lags
• 988 as vital crisis care and why prevention must start earlier
• community-based and peer models that move care upstream
• the four-hour window and limits of certainty in prevention
• death row investigations and the human roots of harm
• courts, prisons, and hospitals as systems misaligned with healing
• grief without blame and rejecting survivor shame
• boundaries, witnessing, and rituals that sustain healing
• writing as advocacy and the dignity of complex stories

To our listeners, if this conversation moved you, please share it. Someone you love might need to hear this today.
If you know somebody that is suicidal or you might be yourself, please call 988 or go to any local authority or anywhere that you can to get help.
You can find Sophia's work in Time, the Washington Post, and her Substack Surface Level, and many other publications. Follow her, read her words, and let them change how you see the world.

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Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_03 (00:08):
Welcome to Real Talk with Tina and Anne.
I am Anne, and today I am sohonored to introduce Sophia
Lorenzi, a very gifted writer,by the way, someone who has
deeply touched my soul.
Sophia has spent years reportingon the lives of people
navigating unimaginable loss andinjustice.

(00:29):
Currently, Sophia is pouring herexperience as a death row
investigator and herunderstanding of suicide loss
into a forthcoming memoir.
Through her writing in advocacywith Save, which is Suicide
Awareness Voices of Education,she's made it her mission to
make a mental health dialogueaccessible and to help others

(00:52):
find agency in difficultsystems.
I sat for hours reading yourarticles, and I am not kidding.
I cannot wait for your memoir.
I sat with them and I lived withthem for actually a while.
You are changing the landscapeof mental health with your
writing.

(01:13):
You are removing stigmas, youare putting faces with suicide
and are creating a space forpeople who are on death row.
I have to tell you, I have neverever met someone who spent days,
weeks, months trying to doeverything that they could to
rewrite the ending of someoneelse's story.

(01:34):
The loss of your dad to suicidetouched you in a way that caused
you to want to reach into thedepths of those who had been so
horribly changed by abuse thatyou wanted to help them rewrite
their own stories.
So we will get to all of that.
But first of all, I just want tothank you so much for being on
the show.

SPEAKER_00 (01:54):
Thank you, and I'm really happy to be here.

SPEAKER_03 (01:57):
Okay, first of all, I am so sorry about your dad and
what you went through.
That was horrific.
And I started your articles byreading with the one you were at
your dad's condo and you leftfor the airport in 2018, and you
never thought that he would takehis life.

(02:19):
Depression had returned.
He had just come home from avoluntary stay at a psychiatric
hospital, and it seemed like anormal visit with him.
But 48 hours later, after youhad left, he was gone.
And in that gap between it feltnormal and everything changed,

(02:41):
what do you wish peopleunderstood about how invisible
crisis can be?

SPEAKER_00 (02:47):
Yeah, that's a really beautiful question.
And I think his storyilluminates something that's
often missing from ourconversations about suicide and
crisis in general, is that hewas a really great example of
being open about mental healthand his struggles and trying so
many things.
As you mentioned, he had justdone a voluntary stay in a

(03:12):
psychiatric hospital.
He had been in outpatienttherapy, regular therapy, seeing
a psychiatrist.
And then he also was doing hisgratitude journaling and yoga
and he had a sunlamp.
And he was, you know, putting somuch effort into getting better.
I think a lot of times we hearthe stories of, oh, this came

(03:33):
out of nowhere, or someone wasstruggling, and you see the
negative signs of theirstruggles.
And my assumption or myunderstanding at the time, I was
young when he died, I was 23.
And for so much of my life, he'dbeen so open about depression
and getting treatment.
So I thought kind of like, well,if you do the things you're

(03:56):
supposed to do, if you go totherapy, if you get the care you
need, if you tell people I'mhaving a hard time, then like,
of course, you don't die bysuicide because you're doing the
things that are supposed to stopthat.
And that's the thing that Iwould want people to take away.
One is that you can try a lot ofthese interventions and not to

(04:17):
take away from how important andmeaningful they are.
And it might still not work, soto say.
And that doesn't mean that youdid something wrong as a
survivor, and that doesn't meanthat the person who was
suffering did something wrong.
It's just that we still know, westill don't know enough about

(04:37):
the brain and suicide and mentalillness.
And it doesn't negate howimportant it is to put in that
effort and seek care, but thatit's not a foolproof.
If you do this, this will be theoutcome.
I remember when he died, mybrother, my younger brother said
to me within the next coupledays, you know, he said, Sophia,

(04:59):
some people get cancer and theysurvive, and some people don't.
And some people have depressionand they survive, and some
people don't.
And suicide is can be, you know,just an outcome of a disease
that we don't have total controlover the progression of it.
And of course, that's not anexact, you know, parallel to a

(05:23):
disease like cancer, but Ithought that was such a wise
thing for a 21-year-old, myyounger brother, to say in that
moment.
Oh, yeah.
Has stuck with me.

SPEAKER_03 (05:31):
Right, right.
Your article that is titled TheProblem with Saying Suicide is
preventable is really powerful.
And I know people that have dieduh from suicide.
And, you know, no matter howwell you know someone, we don't
really.
And no matter how muchpreventative things we have in

(05:53):
place, if they want to, theywill.
And your dad was one of 48,000Americans who died by suicide in
2018, and the numbers arerising.
The Surgeon General has calledit a public health crisis.
Can you talk more about that?

SPEAKER_00 (06:11):
Yeah, it's a a difficult kind of tension
because I think we've had somuch progress in reducing stigma
and talking more about suicideloss and mental health in
general.
You know, I remember even as akid growing up, these little
moments of learning of people,you know, in the neighborhood

(06:31):
who died by suicide and commentsI heard about like, would their
loved ones still get lifeinsurance?
Like for years you couldn't getlife insurance if there was a
suicide loss.
Uh, for years you couldn't beburied in a Catholic cemetery.
I grew up Catholic.
So this is how I wondered aboutthat with my dad.
And they did change that.

(06:52):
But, you know, both on aninstitutional level and
socially, we talk so much moreabout these problems.
We see celebrities uh open upabout mental health and we like
collectively mourn celebritydeaths by suicide.
But at the same time, we'reseeing these numbers rise.
And I don't think it's that, youknow, interventions aren't

(07:14):
effective or aren't working.
I think it's a combination of wedon't know enough and we don't
like access to care is stillreally, really hard in terms of
affording therapy, getting, youknow, therapists who are trained
and competent in the differentissues that people face.
Um, and then we have kind ofthis still unknown factor of

(07:39):
well, it's not quite unknown,but evolving factor of how is
social media and the digitallandscape impacting the mental
health of young people is areally significant one.
And we know that, you know, notwell overall, but it's been, you
know, not long enough to reallybe able to like parse that
within the context of thesuicide crisis um overall.

(08:04):
So I think there's a lot of hopeand there's a lot of amazing
work that people are doing.
And it can feel confusing whenyou see people are doing all
these great things and there'sstill increasing rates of
suicide and mental illness.
And I think we we need to likelive with both those realities.
And it doesn't mean that thepositive interventions aren't

(08:25):
important and aren't aren'tworking.
We're just dealing with a lot.
I wouldn't be surprised if a lotof it is, you know, continues to
be the fallout of living througha global pandemic.
You know, we just are facing alot of global struggles too,
that I think contribute tomental wellness overall.

SPEAKER_03 (08:43):
Oh, absolutely.
You know, I loved Italy's modelthat helps people who are
hurting so desperately, and theyhave created a peer-managed
housing, which I just thoughtwas brilliant.
You know, California tried toreplicate it with a$116 million
uh project.

(09:04):
But can you talk?
You're you're starting to talkabout it, but could you talk
more about the lack of resourcesand having more access to mental
health care in this country?
Because I think that it'sgetting worse.

SPEAKER_00 (09:15):
Yeah, a lot of the resources that we have, I'm glad
you mentioned those models ofcommunity care, which I'm such
an advocate for, and care thatstarts so much earlier and is
preventative and iscommunity-based.
So many of the strongest mentalhealth response systems that we
do have are they're too latebecause they're when you're

(09:35):
already in crisis.
It's amazing that we have 988now, the suicide hotline.
Oh, yeah.
But we need to be havingresources 20 steps back before
you're at that point, beforeyou're calling 988.
The same with inpatient care.
Most of the time, if someone iseither voluntarily hospitalized,
and certainly if they'reinvoluntarily hospitalized, it's

(09:58):
because they've made a suicideattempt or are about to, or
you're kind of at the brinkalready.
And that's those things arereally important.
But those are kind of whatbuilds the bedrock of our
systems.
And it's not enough to, first ofall, it's they're overloaded.
People can will stay in thehospital for a few days and then

(10:20):
it's just like, okay, you cannow you are back in your normal
life.
Um I think so much of it isintegrating mental health care
so much sooner, more in the waythat we treat our physical
health.
You know, you go to your doctorannually for your physical
checkup.
We try to aspirationally, youknow, exercise regularly, eat

(10:43):
well, and sort of do thesemaintenance tasks for our
physical health.
Treating mental health like thatis really important, but we
don't have that literacy andeducation and system for that.
You don't go once a year to atherapist to just have a
check-in and say, like, okay,where are things at with you?
Um, there's not an equivalent ofa gym for mental health care or

(11:09):
community um that supports that.
Um, so those are some of thethings that I would love to see
more of.
And and people are doing amazingwork in those spaces, but it's
hard.

SPEAKER_03 (11:20):
Yes.
I know um a child who is prettyyoung and has gone from hospital
to hospital.
And even with that, uh lots oftimes while the family is
looking to put them, you know,have them in a hospital for
help, the hospitals are full.
Yeah.
So, you know, I mean, that'sreally telling to me across the

(11:44):
country that kids' mental healthis so uh they like you said, I
don't know if it's social mediaor what it exactly is, but they
are bombarded right now and theyare not healthy.
Our kids today are not mentallyhealthy, and our the hospitals
are full.
And you were also right in thatwithin three days, you know,

(12:08):
it's well, we're just an acutecare, you know, we can't do
anything else.
We can't do anything.
So we need to send them home.
And um, all we are is like anemergency placement.
We can take care of them for afew days and then we get them
stable and then they go, andthat's it.
So I mean, it's like really asad situation when that's our

(12:33):
kids today.

SPEAKER_00 (12:34):
Yeah, it's like the equivalent of if the only time
you ever got medical care waswhen you went to the emergency
room, which is true for, youknow, some people who don't have
health insurance and like thereality for some people, right?
But that's that's how mostpeople access the mental and
access mental health care atall.
There's not enough therapistsfor everyone to get one-on-one

(12:56):
care.
Um so it's a really challengingpublic health crisis, is what it
is.

SPEAKER_03 (13:02):
Well, it needs to be more into the school system.
And I don't know how they can dothat, but I think if we reach
them a lot younger, I think thatit will help them because we're
really heading down a scaryplace.
Uh and I was also, you know,please talk more about all
suicide cannot be stopped, evenwith the best efforts.

(13:24):
I mean, even putting them in thehospitals and using the
resources that we do have.
I mean, there are just some thatcannot be stopped.
And I know that that's what youwent through with your dad,
because I know you've done a lotof research about this.
If you've touched into the brainof somebody and and maybe

(13:45):
figured some of that out.

SPEAKER_00 (13:46):
Yeah, I mean, a lot of it is we don't know exactly
the the factors that cause oneperson to die by suicide and one
not to.
Uh, one thing that I'veresearched is that often there
is a really a relatively shortwindow where someone is likely
to take action.
If I'm remembering correctly,it's about four hours.

(14:07):
Um, and if you can kind ofsurvive the four-hour window,
you may still feel be suicidal,um, but less likely to take
action uh and harm.
But I think there's also, youknow, variety there.
I wrote that piece and I wasnervous when I wrote it that it
would come off as, you know,dismissive of so many advocacy

(14:30):
efforts that people have put in.
And the response I got was muchdifferent than that.
And I I talked to a lot of folkswho appreciated the honesty of
we don't know enough.
And that doesn't mean we don'ttry.
But I think suicide is sodistinct because it has this
lens of agency in someone makinga choice.

(14:53):
And I think it's a reallycomplicated question that I
still write about and I strugglewith of like how much is it a
choice?
It it this balance betweenmaking a choice within the
confines of not many choices atall when your brain and body and
experience feel the way they do.
And also giving dignity topeople's experiences that I

(15:15):
can't under, you know, you can'tunderstand.
You know, I think the more wecan understand it like other
diseases that we're still alwaysseeking treatments and cures
for, and knowing that some westill are not going to save
every single person who has ahas cancer, for example, um, it

(15:36):
makes it a little lessstigmatized for people who are
struggling with suicidality andpeople who lose others to
suicide, because it can feellike, oh, well, if it's
preventable, why what did I dowrong?
What did they do wrong?
We were trying, you know.

SPEAKER_03 (15:53):
Right, right.
Because the shame and the blamethat is associated with people
who say, Well, you know, if youcould have, if you should have,
if I would have known.
And that's not okay because,like you said, that felt like a
double failure.
And your father wasn't able tosave himself.
People around him were not ableto.

(16:13):
And you channeled your guilt,however, into understanding and
advocating for suicideprevention.
And I would say that you havedone much more than that.
You have made this a life'smission, and your dad is living
on for sure.
And you said that the best thingthat you could do for your
father or really anyone who hadtaken their own life is to

(16:36):
acknowledge their pain and thattheir pain was real.
So, yeah, could you talk moreabout that?

SPEAKER_00 (16:44):
Yeah, I think there's um it's complicated.
All grief is complicated.
I think grief of us from asuicide loss is extra
complicated in that, at least inmy personal experience and I've
heard from others, there's thisinstinct to be protective of the
person who died.
Like, well, I want to make surethat they're not defined by this

(17:07):
one action in the same way that,you know, you don't want none of
us want our worst moments or ourhardest moments or our most
challenging moments to defineus, but they are also a part of
us.
And so much of my journey overthe years since my father died
is learning how to create spaceof remembering him for his whole

(17:31):
self, his wonderful parts, hisflawed parts, the way he died,
and also the way he lived.
Um and so I have found that tobe really hard.
You know, it's not somethingthat came overnight.
It came over years of thinkingabout this and writing about

(17:52):
this, and um, through otherexperiences too, seeing stories
from other people's perspectivesthat gave me a different lens on
my own.
And I think that first I justreally wanted to protect that
image of my dad and say, itmakes sense why he died.
He had depression, he had traumain his life, and I'm not going
to overcomplicate uh why he diedor who he was.

(18:15):
One, I allowed myself to see hispain as more complex and instead
of wanting to make it very likecut and dry where I could tell
the story in just a sentence ortwo.
That allowed me to start seeinghim overall as more whole and
human and complex.

SPEAKER_03 (18:32):
Yeah, I loved your sentence about your dad.
The way he died does notdiminish how dedicated he was to
growth and evolution, and itdoes not invalidate the
countless ways that he chose tolive.
I thought that was so beautiful.
Thank you.
I want to talk more uh on yourwriting, and I spent so much

(18:54):
time.
I read every word of if then acouple of times actually.
And before we even started this,I was saying how wise you were.
I mean, you are wise beyond youryears.
You had watched a show when youwere 11 years old called Prison
Break, and I watched everyepisode, so I was very familiar

(19:15):
with that.

SPEAKER_00 (19:16):
You know, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (19:17):
Oh my gosh, I loved that show.
And I have to tell you that Iused to work in the jail system,
and I was in the jail ministrywith women, and I became very
close to a woman who hadmurdered someone.
And you know, I really likedher.
Uh, we became friends, and I gotto know her really well.

(19:37):
And I think of her even oftennow, many, many years later.
Everyone has a story, and afteryou saw the show Prison Break,
you became obsessed withexecutions and you read so many
of them.
When you were 24, you moved awayfrom your family and just and
you had just signed off on yourdad's condo after he had just

(20:00):
passed.
And your job, which your job wasan investigator helping people
who had been sentenced to deathwith their legal appeals, and
you were obsessed with helpingthem.
And your job was to help themtry to get off of death row.
And I can already hear peoplesaying, but they deserved it.

(20:21):
But you know, why would you dosomething like that?
And I'm not advocating for oragainst that whatsoever.
What I got out of your articlewas that I think was the most
important thing was that therewas more to the story.
There was more to their story,and it needed to be told.

(20:42):
And, you know, there was a manthat you called Alan.
And the more that you found outabout his life, I think the more
human he became to you.
And he had been molested as achild by his father.
And I think that that would be acommon thread in the jail
system.

SPEAKER_00 (20:58):
And yes, I'll add that every client that I worked
with had some history of sexualabuse as a child, among other
types of abuse.

SPEAKER_03 (21:07):
But you're exactly right.
Yeah, and and his sister hadbeen murdered and his mom was
battered.
You know, he he didn't have achance in so many different
ways.
Your job was to give him thebest chance that he could to
stay alive.
And you wrote, I mean, you saidif you could find out why he

(21:28):
killed, you could do somethingto keep him alive.
And you wanted so badly tounderstand the person who had
killed, you really believed thatthere was something that made
them that way.
And I sat in this for so long.
Can you please talk more aboutthis?

SPEAKER_00 (21:44):
Yeah, absolutely.
I remember having that thoughtwhen I was 11 or 12 and saw that
scene from Prison Break.
And I think something justclicked for me of I have known
the death penalty existed and weexecuted people, or it existed
in my mind as sort of thishistorical thing, right?
Like I read about, you know,Anne Boleyn and Joan of Arc.

(22:05):
And I grew up Catholic and wereconstantly talking about Jesus'
execution.
And then that show made merealize, oh, we do this now.
And this is the thing thatpeople experience and have to go
through.
And it just shocked and anddisturbed me so deeply.
And as I read about it, Iremember thinking, like, but

(22:26):
there's no way that someonewould kill somebody else if
there wasn't something wrongwith them.
A very simplified version as akid, but it's like a thought
that I never really lost or orgot rid of.
And I pursued studyingpsychology and neuroscience in

(22:47):
college.
I thought I was going to go tolaw school, but I wanted to have
this understanding of how canpsychology and knowing more
about the brain explain thechoices we make and why we do
what we do, but especially inthis context of harm and violent
harm and sort of the worstcrimes that we then write people
off as soon as they've committedthese crimes.

(23:10):
And it's, you know, youunderstand, especially for
people who are victims or theirloved ones are victims, it is
often unimaginable.
And I think that so much of whatI learned leading up to working
on that job, and then especiallyin that job, was that it's not
as unimaginable as our gutreactions are, because there's

(23:32):
so many circumstances.
It's similar to what I wassaying about when people die by
suicide, is a pile of factorscan just add up and add up and
trap people in these boxes oftheir mind and experience that I
don't think anyone would knowhow they might behave or might
react in the moment if they hadthose things surrounding them

(23:57):
and sort of suffocating them.
So I always believed in thehumanity of people who have done
terrible things and also in thepotential for change.
I think that's another thingthat's deeply important to me
and just something I I have hopein and always believe in.
And that's something that whenwe choose to have the death

(24:18):
penalty and execute people, youerase that possibility of growth
and change over time and you andyou choose, you know, or the
state chooses to stop it on acertain date.
And yeah, to your point aboutthe client that I was working
with and what I saw in overallworking with people on death
row, they were so much more thanwhat they did.

(24:41):
And there was so much parallelbetween the harms that they had
caused to others and the harmsthat had been done to them
throughout their lives.
Again, never an excuse, but itit helped create and give
context to reasons of how thesethings come to be.
So I think there's just and andthe court system's really hard.

(25:04):
I wanted to be a lawyer.
Like I have so much respect forthe law and our legal system and
so much faith in it in someways.
And in other ways, it's reallydifficult because it's designed
to be not only black and white,but it's like where there's
winners and losers.
Um, it's a it's adversarial,it's almost a competition of you

(25:26):
say you win a case or you lose acase.
And that doesn't really leaveroom for the nuance of this
crime happened, this painhappened.
How to how do we repair a senseof safety in a community?
How do we best support thevictims?
Um, I think there's a lot ofquestions about what justice um

(25:48):
looks like to different people.

SPEAKER_03 (25:49):
When I was in the jail system um helping the
women, I actually ended upwriting a book about my the um
my experience there because umthey referred to themselves as
what they did.
And I didn't want them to seeeach other for because they

(26:10):
would introduce themselves to meand say, Hi, my name is so and
so, and I'm a prostitute, or I'min here because I murdered
somebody, or and I would alwayssay to them, No, I want to know
you.
I don't want to know what youdid.
And we would always, they wouldbreak down, there would be

(26:32):
crying, and we would find outwhat was behind what led them to
what ended up happening.
And I can remember being in theparking lot and there was a
woman who was getting released,and we were going to pick her up
and take her somewhere becausewhere she was going wasn't safe.

(26:52):
And she said that she wanted todo that, and she came out into
the parking lot and she lookedat us and she looked at her what
sugar sugar daddy who was parkednot too far away from us, and
she went and he just looked ather, and then he got in, she got
in his car.
And it was so heartbreaking, andI still can remember it like so

(27:16):
vividly.
And you know, that's what feardoes.
It really opened my eyes so muchso because when they would leave
and they would say, I'm nevergonna see you again, and you
know, and then very shortlyafter we would see them again,
and I just saw this cycle thatthey couldn't get out of.

(27:38):
And a lot of it, almost all thetime, it sten it stemmed from
the abuse that they had gonethrough when they were children.
And the fathers were absent, andthey really didn't have really
great role models, and they hadjust fallen into some of the
most horrific experiences, andthey just could not find their
way out.

SPEAKER_00 (27:56):
Yeah, I think exactly what what you said
that's such a powerful image andso true to what I've seen and
the limitations in which so manypeople make choices, and poverty
is and lack of resources is alsoa huge factor in this, as you
were saying, with thesimilarities in the backgrounds

(28:17):
of people you saw.
And it just reminded me of whenI first started working in this
field.
Uh, I was an intern in Louisianaand I went to Angola for the
first time, which is where DeathRow is.
And it used to be, well,actually, it's still a working
plantation.
It's a very unsettling place.
And I was driving down thereally long path to the

(28:39):
buildings with uh my supervisor.
And I asked her how many peoplehere on Death Row like paid for
their own attorney, could affordtheir attorney when they went to
trial.
And she looked kind of startledand she said, Oh, none of them.
None of them.
And that was the same experiencein Tennessee.
You see it over and over.
The people who end up in thesesituations are people who not

(29:04):
only didn't have resources whenthey were facing criminal
charges, but never really hadresources and support systems,
or it had support systems thatwere also struggling and had
cracks in them, like you weresaying, whether it's in within
the family or within a largersocial system.
And that's a really hard, youknow, reality to accept of.

(29:28):
I I think there's so we we wantto think of these things as
individual failings and likeevil people.
And I think the challenge is toconsider like how are we as a
society failing people who needsupport and resources?

SPEAKER_03 (29:45):
Well, that's interesting because I had said
to somebody at a church one timewhen I was still working at the
jail and I asked them if, and hewas the pastor of the church, I
said to him, if the jailreleased right now, and you
know, they didn't have anywhereto go to a church.
Would your church accept them?
How would your congregantsaccept them into their

(30:09):
community?
And he went, Oh wow, no.
They wouldn't.
And and so I mean that's verytelling.
But I do believe in peoplecoming out and having um another
chance when when they have donewhen they've done their time.
And I don't think that we havethat set up very well.

SPEAKER_00 (30:29):
Yeah, the recidivism rates are just extraordinary.
And it goes back to what we weretalking about earlier, too, with
mental health and mental healthsystems.
100%.
A lot of in a lot of places thejails and the prisons are de
facto mental health facilitiesbecause the rates of people with
severe mental illness in prisonand jail are significant.

(30:52):
We don't have like institutionalstructures in the way that we
used to, whether or not thosehave they certainly had their
problems in their in the 80s and90s, but so much of the the
actual systems that catch peoplewho are in the depths of severe
mental illness and addiction arejails and prisons.
A lot of what people in who workin prisons, as you probably saw,

(31:14):
are dealing with is likemaintaining and trying to sort
of help people as much as theycan with mental illness.
And the people who are havethose jobs, that is not what
their training is.
That's not what their job is.
The expectation, how we have itnow, is not what that job is
supposed to be.
So we also put a lot of pressureon not only those systems, but

(31:36):
also the individuals who areworking within those systems.

SPEAKER_03 (31:39):
And and that also has to do with the hospitals
because that is not really whatthey're trained for, the people
that get them in the ERs.
And even when they spend likethree days in a place, I mean,
they are not prepared to dealwith the long term.
And I don't think that they knowhow to deal with the long term.
Not at all.

SPEAKER_02 (31:59):
Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 (32:00):
Well, I want to talk a little bit more about your dad
because everything was connectedto your dad, I feel.
And and you said that you couldnot stop your father from taking
his life.
But I think that you were tryingto get this man, Alan, to not
kill himself by execution.
And you wanted him to want tolive.
Did you feel like you were juston this mission to save Alan or

(32:24):
anyone from giving up their ownlife and it was connected to
your dad?

SPEAKER_00 (32:28):
At the time, I didn't feel that consciously.
I felt like I need to justprocess and move on quickly and
do what I was supposed to do.
I had wanted to do this work forso long as an investigator and
work on death row.
And my whole life changed whenmy dad died, and I thought this
is the one I can't changeanything else.

(32:49):
I need to do the thing that Ialways wanted to do.
Now it means even more becauseI'm doing something good and
meaningful.
But I didn't consciously think,oh, now I have the opportunity
to like save someone when Icouldn't save my dad, even
though that is absolutely whatwas going on and added a layer
to my death row work that, youknow, I had always been

(33:11):
passionate and cared deeplyabout it when I was studying
fields related to it andinterning.
And then it did take on this,you know, much deeper and
impossible.
Of course, it's an impossiblebar to live with.
And I was, I think 23, 24 to26-ish when I was working as an

(33:34):
investigator.
Um and I think back with so muchtenderness towards that version
of me because it's like that wasso yeah, I I felt like, okay,
now I'm an adult and I'm doingthis is my first real job.
And I just like see myself as soyoung and like what someone in
their 20s trying to figure itout, like everyone in their 20s,

(33:57):
but in this really intensecontext that I was putting a lot
on myself that I really wasn'tadmitting to at the time.
And it was only after I left thejob that I could name that
connection of, yeah, this wasthis was more about my dad than
I I think when I quit or when Iwas starting to realize like I
can't really separate these.

(34:17):
And when I'm seeing and hearingthese stories of abuse, you my
father had been abused.
It's just as all feeling likethis is what I'm thinking about
and doing in my personal life.
It's what I'm doing in my profprofessional life, and I'm not I
don't think I can yeah, like I'mnot doing the best job I can,
but I also just don't know whereit's all starting to blur

(34:41):
together, I think was how I wasfeeling toward the end of that
job.

SPEAKER_03 (34:45):
Yeah.
And you were very mature forsomebody who was in their 20s
and the things that you weredealing with.
I mean, most 20 years old20-year-olds are not doing that
kind of a job.
So I mean, that's really amazingthat you did that.
I um I want to talk about yourdad a little bit more.
You say that your father passedaway, and you when after he

(35:06):
passed away, you felt like youwere dying without him.
And you know, it's been 50 yearsthis November.
I'm showing my age here, but Iwas very young.
Um when my dad passed away, hedied.
It'll be 50 years this November,and I still miss him like he
just walked out the door.

(35:26):
So, you know, talk about yourdad.
Tell us all the things aboutyour dad.

SPEAKER_00 (35:30):
Yeah, my dad was such such a special person.
He was the kind of person whopeople remembered, you know,
like he would go into a store atthe mall and somehow end up
talking to the salesperson foran hour and then come back two
years later and they would say,Oh, Paul, it's so good to see
you.
He made friends.
Yeah.

(35:51):
He made friends with everyone,people at restaurants.
He was, he had this reallyamazing ability to balance
empathy and getting people toopen up to him.
I I think it was just hisnatural way.
I don't know that he was, hewasn't trying to, but he just
created a sense of comfort umwith many people.
And then he also had a reallyfunny directness about him,

(36:14):
where he was the type to callyou out on your things, but in a
way that always felt really warmand loving.
And I think that created a senseof closeness that a lot of
people had with him.
You know, I think one thing thatstands out to me so much about
him is that he created suchclose relationships with my

(36:35):
friends, both my parents growingup.
You know, like we were the myparents I felt were kind of the
ones who my girlfriends wouldlike feel comfortable talking
to, or we had the sleepovers, orwe had the parties.
Um, but especially as we gotolder, my parents ended up
divorcing.
And I had these childhoodfriends who I love dearly and

(36:57):
I'm still very close to.
We went to different highschools, we went to different
colleges.
And over breaks, my dad wouldalways be the one to have us
over for a dinner party.
And it wasn't that he would justcook for us, he would cook for
us and then sit at the table andsay, Okay, girls, tell me tell
me everything.
What's happening in college,what's happening in my dating.

(37:17):
And so he had that relationship.
I give him a lot of credit forteaching me some of those ways
of building community and andmaintaining relationships.
But I know that he touched a lotof my friends in that way as
well, in a way that noteveryone, you know, we he stood
out as like, oh, not all parentsare like that.

(37:39):
And a lot of my friends as wellcredit him as like he's the
first person who told me thatfirst adult I know who said,
like, I went to therapy, andtherapy is really helpful.
And I have like anxiety is areal thing, you know.
It's I was growing up in theearly 2000s, and it was
definitely better, but still somuch different from now in terms

(38:00):
of how we talk about mentalillness.
And so the fact that he was openabout that, I think stuck with
people who I didn't even realizeit did.

SPEAKER_03 (38:09):
Yeah, from reading everything that you wrote, I
could tell that you had a reallyspecial relationship with your
dad, and you actually gave hiseulogy, which I thought was
beautiful.
And you did say, if you called,he would answer.
And it made me think how and howmuch pain he must have been for

(38:33):
him to leave.
He must have been in so muchpain.
Yeah.
You know, uh your your dad cameout to you when you were
fifteen, and after your dad toldyou, he changed, you said.
I mean, he was more free.
You were proud of your dad andhis story, you were proud of his

(38:56):
bravery.
What parts of it of him do youthink that you have?

SPEAKER_00 (39:02):
Oh, it's I love that question.
You know, I think I always feltso connected with him, and and
people always told us howsimilar we were.
I you may have seen pictures ofhim in some of my articles.
We look very similar, um, butalso a lot of our personality is
very similar.
And I was always so proud ofthat when people said, Oh,

(39:24):
you're just like your dad,because I thought of my dad as
like he's so warm and makesfriends with everyone and like a
loving person and so depthful.
And I I like to think that I Ihope I have and feel like I have
a lot of those qualities,especially when it terms to in
terms of connecting with peopleand being curious about people.

(39:48):
Um, but that was something thatwas challenging as I grieved him
because my understanding of himbecame more complex and flawed
after his death.
And it made me think, oh, Ithought that I'm just like him
and I want to be just like him.
And what does that say about meif the person who I always
wanted to be like is morecomplex and more and has done

(40:12):
things that are really painfuland are not were not the right
thing.
And so I actually think thatthat over time has allowed me to
give myself a lot more grace.
My dad was somebody who heldhimself to really high
standards, far higher standardsthan he held.
He held he had high standards ingeneral.

(40:33):
But for himself, he had almostimpossible standards that I
think were really hard for thestruggles that he dealt with.
And I see myself in that too.
I see some of those the harderthings of like being really hard
on myself or expecting nearperfection from myself.
And I think that even since hisdeath, I've continued to feel so

(40:55):
close to him and learn so muchfrom him because part of my
grieving has been understandingthat more in him, seeing it
reflected in myself and beingable to give myself, I think the
grace that he gave me, but thathe would have loved to be able
to give himself, you know?
So I think I also learn so muchfrom our similarities because

(41:18):
our similarities are some ofthese positives, like we love a
good dinner party, we're chatwith everyone, love to have
really deep conversations, um,cooking and food and some of
those kind of activities tooreally brought us together.
And then some of his challengesare things that I share as well,
especially when it turns comesto this, you know, always

(41:41):
seeking a really high standardof success and excellence.
And I've learned so much abouthow to be gentler on myself
through him.
Okay, even as he's died af afterhis death.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (41:55):
Okay.
Yeah, that's really important.
So many great things.
It sounds like you are so muchlike your dad.
What I got out of your writingwas no stigma, no judgment, no
embarrassment, just my dad.
You know, I just that's what Igot out of everything that I was
reading.
Do you know how beautiful thatis from your dad to Alan on

(42:20):
death row?
These are people.
You know, you want people toknow them, help them.
And while you were helping Alan,I think that you were trying to
find you and find your dad, helpyourself.
And you felt that there wasalways a way to change the
ending.
I I have no words.

(42:41):
I mean, could you talk moreabout that?
Beautiful.
It was such a thread through allof your writing.

SPEAKER_00 (42:47):
Yeah, thank you.
Yeah, I think that in thatperiod of my life, that's what I
wanted so badly.
I wish I could have changed themy dad's ending.
I wanted to change the ending ofmy clients' stories on death
row.
And not to say that it's notpossible to contribute to change
and make a difference withthese, with individual lives,

(43:10):
but I just put so muchindividual pressure on myself.
And it was hard for me to acceptthat there were all these other
factors totally outside mycontrol that would play into
what the ending ultimately was.
And I think that I've evolved toa point where I care so much
about these issues and stories.
And it's to me so much moreabout creating like

(43:34):
non-judgmental space, amplifyingstories and complexity.
At the time, I was in a place ofreally wanting to be sort of the
agent of changing the outcomesof people's stories.
I wish I could have changed theending of my dad's story.
And I, on an intellectual level,knew that there were so many

(43:55):
other factors at play as always.
And I thought, like, oh, if Ijust do a good enough job or if
I just you know work hardenough, I can like overcome
those other factors.
Um, and I think where I'veevolved to now in my work and
just in the way that I approachthese issues is that I want to
create space to have to reallynot judge, you know, as you were

(44:19):
saying, like non-judgmentalspaces to witness.
And there's so much power injust witnessing a full story,
the full humanity, the fullcomplexity.
And rather than seeing myselfas, and I need to do X, Y, and Z
to change everything, I can dosmall things through my writing,
through my advocacy, and butknow what's in my control and

(44:42):
know that there's also a lot ofpower in just creating space and
sharing stories.
And that the thing that I dohave control over in terms of
changing the ending or changingthe story is my own life.
You know, I thought I was going,I had such a plan.
I thought I was going to lawschool and I was going to go

(45:02):
back to death row and work as alawyer, helping people get off
death row and live, you know,live in a southern state
probably where the death penaltyis most prolific.
And that is not, you know, I bebecame a writer.
I live in New York.
I have really just taken a paththat I didn't plan for.
And that is such a beautifulfeeling for me and a healing

(45:23):
thing of knowing that I can opennew doors for myself and explore
those things.
And that there's not a, youknow, an ending or path that I
must go down.
And I can I can be so curiousabout where my life and my work
takes me.
And that is a very empoweringfeeling.

SPEAKER_03 (45:42):
I love that.
One of the things that you did,you know, you you went to
conferences and trainings andyou attended many, and they all
had to do with well, a lot ofthem you would choose the ones
that had to do with trauma andhow trauma impacted decision
making.
So we touched a little bit onthat earlier with the threat of

(46:06):
there being abuse in in the jailsystem and what happened with
your dad as well.
I mean, your your dad's family,yours, you know, but he was
abused by a brother-in-law whowas 20 years older than him, and
then had that horrific situationwith his sister walking in and

(46:29):
then just leaving w while it washappening.
I mean, I just felt thebetrayal, the hurt that he must
have gone through.
I mean, it was just so muchpain.
A place where your dad wassupposed to feel safe, he was
being hurt beyond measure.
And I think so many times thatwhen in our own home, that's the

(46:54):
worst place that we could behurt.
When did you find out about yourdad's story?
And how did you find out?

SPEAKER_00 (47:01):
I first heard about it when I was 18.
I was a senior in college, andit was a couple years after he
and my mom separated.
He and just moved into a newcondo, and he sat my brother and
I down like before dinner, whichwe had dinner together all the
time, but there was definitely aseriousness.

(47:22):
And he just said very bluntly, II remember like we stopped
talking to that branch of myfamily, who before then I'd been
very close to.
And it was kind of confusing tome, of course, as a kid.
And like, all of a sudden wedon't see them.
We don't see my cousins, they'renot at Christmas.
And my dad first asked, like, Doyou know why we don't see them
anymore?

(47:42):
And I said, No.
And well, I actually remember mymom had said that the man who
abused my father did somethingillegal.
And it never crossed my mindthat it was something like that.
I thought it was financial oranything.
Something.
So my dad said when I was 12, heabused me.
And it was a really cut and drysentence, just like that.

(48:04):
Um, actually, I think he used heused the word molested, I
remember, um, and didn'tdescribe it anymore.
It was clear that he was evensaying that out loud was so
painful for him.
Unusual because my dad was justso the type to be very
expressive about his feelingsand how are you feeling.
And I it was so different from,for example, when he came out as

(48:26):
gay to me and my brother, therewas such an open conversation of
like he was very emotional, buthe said, like, this has been so
hard for me.
I'm I'm still your same dad.
Like, I hope you, you know, itwas very like we're in dialogue
about it.
And as compared to this moment,was so it was like, here is a
fact that I'm gonna say, and Ican't really open the door to a

(48:48):
conversation.
And so that's the only time heand I ever spoke about it
directly until he died.
And then after he died, Istarted to learn more about the
extent of the abuse through, youknow, I got his record, his, you
know, personal files, hismedical files.
I heard from my mom and peoplein my family.

(49:10):
I was asking questions, and Irealized that it had been much
more extensive and gone on foryears, and that there had been a
really complicated response inthe family of wanting to keep it
contained, of wanting to I thinkgood intentions in terms of
wanting to support my dad, butalso prioritizing that we can't

(49:30):
let people know about this.
And that's a story I that youhave probably heard.
I have heard dozens of timeswith and this this fear of
judgment from the outside world,when in reality, I mean, that's
a it's a particularly darksituation, but there's so many
parallel stories or stories thatare maybe not as extreme where

(49:54):
our instinct, and especially infamily systems, the instinct is
like keep this within our littleworld.
And it's just so painful tothink how many places that's
happening kind of like behindclosed doors over and over
instead of allowing it to besomething that's talked about
and people can have supportfrom.
So my learning about thatexperience was such a unfolding

(50:17):
over time of I thought Iunderstood it in this way.
And then I was like, actually,no, I was wrong about that.
And now I know more.
And now it keeps becoming someother worse thing over and over.
Um, and that was hard because itmade me question very much a
family secret.
But then I think secrets areboth the the fact of whatever
happened itself, and then alsokind of the way that it's framed

(50:40):
and some of some sense ofbetrayal and confusion can often
come from well, I knew thisbasic fact, but the actual
reality of it is something somuch different than I
understood.
And that was my experience withlearning about how my father had
been abused.

SPEAKER_03 (50:56):
Yeah, I mean, I think most of the time that the
people who have been sexuallyabused, and you know, I even
look at the women that stood infront of the Capitol building, I
think it was that from theEpstein case, and they just want
uh people to hear them.
I think most of the time, reallyall they want is some they want
to be heard and they want somevalidation.

(51:18):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, that really is just theminimal thing that you can we
could give to somebody is justto listen to their story and to
say, I'm so sorry that you wentthrough that.
So, and I think that, like yousaid, the stigma of it and
people looking at them as ifthey had done something wrong.
I think that that keeps thesecret what it is, because they

(51:42):
don't want to tell.
What I do like though is thatyour dad wrote his abuser a
letter.
And I'm so glad that he didthat.
What that must have meant toyou.

SPEAKER_00 (51:55):
Yeah, I did not know that letter existed until after
my dad died.
I had never seen it.
So it was painful.
It's something I avoided readingfor a couple months.
But it also gave me so muchcontext on the depth of his pain
and how much, you know, I sawthis with my dad in his life.
He was somebody who Itdefinitely was control issues in

(52:17):
in some capacity of like justwanting to, you know, if I can
just do this thing a littledifferently, then I think
everything's gonna be okay.
If I just do this, if I just dothis.
And I saw, I understood so muchof like how deeply rooted that
was reading that letter.
You he described his pain sodeeply and how much he also just
talked about, I just want tomove on.

(52:38):
Like if we just, if you can justadmit it, if if this happens, if
X happens, then I think I canjust finally move on and be
okay.
And he wanted that sodesperately.
And, you know, like I said, withhis issues with depression, he
was always he tried, like hetried so many things.
And I think that um instinctsapplied too to how he was

(53:01):
reacting to his abuse and tryingto find a solution.
You know, he's a verysolution-oriented person.
And sometimes I don't want tosay necessarily to a fault like
it's a bad thing, but I believethat there are certain certain
things that there's not anthere's not a cut and dry
solution that will fix aproblem.
And some problems need to justbe like softened or held, or

(53:24):
like you learn to live with, andmaybe that changes over time.
And so I I just understood mydad so much more from reading
that level letter and had I feltso much pain for him.
And I saw my clients in thatletter too, these like glimpses
of imagining what it must havebeen like for them as children

(53:45):
to be abused and be unsafe.
And that's whatever type ofabuse it is, like you said, when
it happens at home and youreally lose that sense of
safety, it it creates this lackof trust in yourself for a lot
of people because I don't havecontrol over what's going on
around me.
I don't know when something isgoing to happen to my mom, to

(54:09):
me, to my body.
And so I I don't know how totrust my own instincts and my
own actions.

SPEAKER_03 (54:16):
I love that you're continuing to fight for your
dad, you know, when you'retelling his story and you're
helping so many people becauseof it.
That just takes so much courageto just pick up that baton and
just keep going with it.
So you also, with that letter,and it was proof that your dad
had been abused.
There was a lot of proof inthere, but he had taken his life

(54:38):
and you tried to build a casefor this.
I mean, what happened?

SPEAKER_00 (54:42):
Yeah, I was really investigating what my dad had
been through and why he mighthave ended his life at the same
time I was investigating mycases.
So I had this investigator haton, and I felt so much anger
toward what I saw as systemsthat failed my dad.
And I wanted accountability.

(55:02):
I thought, can I sue the personwho had abused him?
I even considered, like, hadsomething gone wrong in the
hospital.
And I wanted an explanation, Iwanted accountability.
Like in that sense, I know it'snot different.
It was my dad who took his life,not somebody else who took his
life.
But I could have a deeper senseof understanding for the people

(55:24):
who lose loved ones to violenceand are impacted in the justice
system because uh it's such adeep feeling of like, I just
want somebody to be heldaccountable and admit that what
they did was wrong or what theydid was harmful.
And so I I talked to someattorneys about whether there
was any possibility of a lawsuitgiven my dad's letter.

(55:48):
And I was so frustrated withthis culture of secrecy and
covering things up that I justwanted it to be so out in the
open.
And it's ultimately like thepeople I talked to said that
there's it's really hard to drawthat connection legally, even if
it's you know written down onpaper, it would basically have
had to say it would have to havebeen a case where my dad like

(56:10):
wrote a suicide note that said,This is why I'm ending my life,
which he did not.
And even with that, it would bea really high bar.
And I realized, you know, I wasnever, I never wanted a specific
outcome beyond justaccountability and kind of
clearing the cobwebs of secrecy,which I guess in some ways I
have done anyway, because Iwrite about it and very out in

(56:34):
the open in that way.
So I've kind of found my ownpath.
But I also had a glimpse of howthis, you know, from my personal
perspective.
And this was something that mydad dealt with too, of like he
never wanted to press chargesand go through a le a legal
process because it's so painfulas a victim and survivor to

(56:55):
relive it over and over.
And it's not about sharing yourstory, it's about facts and
figures and being right andwrong, as I mentioned before.
And that's often not somethingthat's something that can often
be just so draining and peopledon't want to relive.
So I got a tiny, tiny glimpse ofthat as I was considering is
there something that I can do tochange that story?

(57:16):
And I think ultimately what I'vedone is, like I said, try to
focus more on on how this haswhat it has become in terms of
my own story and doing somethingwith it in that regard.

SPEAKER_03 (57:28):
And you know, so often, unfortunately, the abuser
ends up having more rights thanthe victim.
So it's it's so hard, like yousaid, with the letter.
And it would have had to haveactually been written out, and
still even then, it's hard toprove, which I don't know why it
is, and why we have to likescream as loud as we possibly

(57:50):
can to be heard, and then it'sstill not loud enough, and then
you feel like you weren't seenor validated, and that almost
like they don't believe me.
So I mean that that just slamsthe door on the pain that is
locked inside you, and I thinkit's it it causes it it makes it
worse.
It's a whole nother layer ofpain.

(58:11):
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
A couple of your quotes I'mgonna talk about a little bit
because this was really powerfulto me.
None of those scenarios were thereality.
The reality was that my fatherhad felt enough pain that he
decided to end his own life.
The reality was that Alan was ondeath row, away from his family,
and he could not separate thatfrom the decisions he made about

(58:34):
his life.
Their choices were a product oftheir experiences that I could
never really understand, nomatter how many questions I
asked or documents I memorized.
I love that you recognized thisand their stories and their
pains and that you saw them.
And I think that you're seeingevery your writings are seeing

(58:55):
everybody that is in these typesof situations.
It's beautiful.

SPEAKER_02 (59:00):
Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_03 (59:01):
Another quote that you left your job six months
after you were unable to helpAlan, which he's still on death
row.
You said in your okay.
Yeah, I mean, and that's reallyhard.
But another quote that you saidsix months after you had left um
that job, you wrote, I did notknow how to make my job stop

(59:22):
feeling like my life, and mylife stopped feeling like my
job.
You had talked a little bitabout that earlier.
I am that kind of a passionateperson.
I kind of enmesh what I'mworking on and my life and the
pains that I've gone through,and then that's become like a
mission to me.
You know, I just wanted to askyou if you could talk more about

(59:45):
that and your mission and whatyou want to do with all of this.

SPEAKER_00 (59:50):
Yeah, thank you.
That's a that's a lovelyquestion.
Um, I think I want to continuebeing a witness of these stories
and being a Voice that amplifiesother people's voices, that
allows space for nuance, thatlooks at systems that are often
really inhuman, often reallycomplicated, and finds and

(01:00:13):
brings out the very humanpersonal stories within them.
I think it's a way that we canmake change when we break down
or look at these kind of hugestructures or huge problems and
can see the individuals likeliving within them or living in
spite of them in some in somecontexts.
So my mission is not only to bean honest storyteller about my

(01:00:36):
own life and let my experiencebe, I hope, an example and a
way, a sort of a channel, a wayfor others to feel seen and
connect and start conversationsthat maybe they've been avoiding
having or grieve in a way thatthey maybe haven't before, but
also to question what ourassumptions are about the

(01:00:58):
systems that we have in placeand how are people really
operating within them.
And so if I can continue to justtell those stories and amplify
them in new ways that aren'toften the way that we hear about
them, that makes me feel reallyfulfilled and is something that
I know you you mentionedearlier, and it feels so
resonant to me and to hear yousay this like non-judgmental way

(01:01:22):
of writing and seeing.
And I think that that is, youknow, at the core of what I do
and want to do is to be somebodywho can kind of sit with sit
with complexity, sit with harm,and let it be what it is amongst
a lot of other things.
A lot amongst joy, amongstforgiveness, amongst dignity and
agency and all of these thingsdo exist at the same time.

(01:01:46):
It's really hard.
It's hard to see that in otherpeople.
Sometimes it's really hard tosee that in ourselves.
But those are the things thatdrive me.

SPEAKER_03 (01:01:53):
That's a lot.

SPEAKER_00 (01:01:55):
Yeah.
I'm busy.

SPEAKER_03 (01:01:58):
Oh, but it's amazing.
I do want to say this because Ilove that you are finally, you
know, and maybe before this, butin my own reading about you, you
were starting to finally livefor yourself.
You wrote any number of mirroredrealities like these would have
been a more satisfying, moretriumphant, more impressive

(01:02:19):
ending, but they are not whathappened.
Sometimes it is not a matter offinding the right explanation.
Sometimes the option simply doesnot exist.
The words are not there.
What did happen is this this iswhat I love.
I sent Alan a card on theanniversary of his sister's
death, and I put money on hisphone books, and I visited him,

(01:02:40):
and we played cards in thefamily and friends visitation
room.
I stopped obsessing over why myfather died, and I instead I
walked in the woods with hisbest friend, and I added anchovy
paste to his favorite pastarecipe, and I gave away his
beloved ugly cow print barstools I once thought I could

(01:03:00):
never part with.
When my aunt, the one with thesoft skin who remained married
to Jean, the one who abused him,offered to meet up and talk.
I told her no.
I wanted to hug you, I wanted toscream when you said that.
I mean, it was so empowering tome.

(01:03:20):
How did it feel to write that?

SPEAKER_00 (01:03:22):
It felt, you know, was something that was just such
a change from how I had operatedfor so much of my life.
But the power of letting go ofcontrol and trying, just trying
to make everything work andeverything kind of change was so
freeing.
You know, that's I think theright word.

(01:03:42):
It was a relief to write thatand also a relief to live that
before I put the words on thepage and you know, feel so much
more balance in wanting to makechange and do meaningful work
and also not taking it on somuch as my own life, you know,
being able to close the laptopand being able to say, Oh, I

(01:04:05):
couldn't, I actually I want Ireally wanted to interview this
person.
I thought it would make adifference.
And I couldn't get a hold ofthem or they wouldn't talk to
me.
And being able to just like letthat pass on instead of taking
it so personally as a failing onmy own part.
Yeah, was such a so so freeing.
And you know, writing it andliving it as you asked, it gave

(01:04:29):
me so much space, like lettinggo of all those things that you
just quoted and that youdescribed, like in the space
where I let go of those things.
I had so much more space for joyand for myself and for
complicated feelings to justexist and be and not need to be
solved as puzzles that I wantedto put in neat little boxes.

(01:04:52):
And it made my life and mymemory of my dad and my grief,
all those things much more fulland sort of flushed out in a way
because I wasn't trying to makethem a certain way and answer a
certain question.
Um, so I I think that it alsogave me so much space, like a

(01:05:13):
breath to experience that andwrite that.

SPEAKER_03 (01:05:17):
Yeah, there's layers of healing, and it felt like
there was a big, a big slam onthe abuse, you know, like it was
like you helped your dad at thatmoment, you stood up for
yourself, you let her know whatshe had done as well.
And I thought that that was justso powerful that you what the

(01:05:40):
word no does, oh my gosh.
I mean, to set a boundary uplike that is it really sent a
message.
One simple word, one hugemessage.
You also you wrote, I hadaccepted that to know someone is
not to solve them, but to seethem.
And I loved that, you know, youwere speaking right to me when

(01:06:04):
you said that.
And you know, there are so manypeople that you're helping with
your words.
So thank you so much foreverything that you're writing.
And I can't wait for yourmemoir.
Could you tell me more?
Like, is it coming out soon?
What's what's happening?

SPEAKER_00 (01:06:21):
Yeah, I'm in the process of like long publication
process with my agents.
So I don't have an official dateyet, but it is moving along.
I'm very, very excited about it.
And um, I in the meantime amcontinuing to publish like the
articles and essays that you'veread.
And I also have a substack whereI write and explore these topics

(01:06:44):
in more depth, get a little bitmore personal, and also where I
um send updates and kind ofbehind the scenes uh information
about the book too.
So that's called surface level.
And it's been really beautifulto write in that space as well.

SPEAKER_03 (01:06:59):
Yes, I was gonna ask you to talk about that um
surface level and how people canget a hold of you at Substack.
Is is there any other way thatthey can get a hold of you?

SPEAKER_00 (01:07:09):
Yeah, so uh the Substack is called Surface
Level.
And then my website, you canalso read my work and contact
me.
It's just SophiaLorenzi.com, myname.

SPEAKER_03 (01:07:18):
Sophia, thank you so much for being here.
Thank you for sharing yourheart, your story, and your
father's legacy so openly.
What you've done through yourwriting, your advocacy, and your
courage, it gives voice to painthat's often too heavy for
words.
You remind us that behind everystatistic, there's a person.

(01:07:40):
Behind every label, whethersuicide, death row, or mental
illness, there's a story.
And stories like yours help ussee the humanity that's been
hidden by shame and silence forfar too long.
I think one of the most healingthings that we can do is what
you're doing, refusing to lookaway, choosing to stay in the

(01:08:01):
hard conversations and theuncomfortable truths.
Because when we look closer, wesee that healing isn't about
fixing, it's about seeing.
Your line to know someone is notto solve them, but to see them
will stay with me forever.
That's what this show is about.
Seeing people fully in theirpain and in their purpose.
To our listeners, if thisconversation moved you, please

(01:08:23):
share it.
Someone you love might need tohear this today.
If you know somebody that issuicidal or you might be
yourself, please call 988 or goto any local authority or
anywhere that you can to gethelp.
You can find Sophia's work inTime, the Washington Post, and
Substack, Sir her Substack,Surface Level, and many other

(01:08:45):
publications.
Follow her, read her words, andlet them change how you see the
world.
Until next time, remember thereis purpose in the pain and there
is hope in the journey.
I am Anne, and this is Real Talkwith Tina.
And Anne and Sophia, thank youso much again for being here.

SPEAKER_00 (01:09:02):
Thank you so much, Anne.
It was an honor and wonderful totalk with you.