She Never Gave Up On Him, Even When He Gave Up On Himself

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Heavenly Father, we thank you for bringing us
together.
Father, we ask that you layhands on Kim and Mike as they
tell their story.
Father, these precious timestogether, father, we do these to
heal other peoples and otherfamilies.
Father, open their hearts, opentheir minds and do healing with
them.
Father, that these timestogether will better serve them

(00:23):
going forward.
Father, we ask that you sitwith each one of us and bless us
and keep us safe.
We say these in your name.
Amen, let's go to work, you siton the toilet.
Don't you Use that as yourmeditation?

Speaker 3 (00:38):
Not my wife, not your wife, nor anybody listening to
this podcast has eaten a shitsandwich.

Speaker 1 (00:43):
Welcome to Recovery Unfiltered.

Speaker 3 (00:44):
I'm Larry, I'm an alcoholic.
I am rob, I am also analcoholic.
We are not professionals.
There are no letters after ournames.
We know very little.
However, you will hear the wordgod and a four-letter word in
the same sentence.
You will also be offended.
So if you are easily offended,just pass us by.
This podcast is not for you ouropinions are just that.

Speaker 1 (01:00):
If you don't agree with what I'm over.
I'm over that thing, robbie.
Hi, rob, how you?

Speaker 3 (01:04):
doing buddy.
I am over that intro.
Hey, we went from a nice prayer, beautiful prayer, heartfelt
prayer.
You sit on the toilet, don'tyou?

Speaker 1 (01:14):
Hey, listen, what did I say AA is the only place
where you hear God and fuck inthe same sentence.

Speaker 3 (01:20):
Yeah, Then they mean both of them, you know yeah then
they mean both of them.

Speaker 4 (01:24):
You know they have problems welcome back, mike.

Speaker 1 (01:27):
Hey, you know I missed you last week, yeah, two
weeks ago now.
Yeah, it was her fault.
No, no, no, no, don't do it,don't do it, throwing poor kim
under the bus already.

Speaker 4 (01:40):
We haven't even introduced her yet Sorry.

Speaker 1 (01:42):
Give me a couple minutes here I want to correct a
few things with Rob.
Rob, go ahead.
Well, in our two last podcastsI want to say it was last week
we were talking aboutsponsorship, right, okay, and I
asked you about you being tired,right, and how you go about
that, how you go about that, andyou said something in there,

(02:06):
and I want to very much clarifywith our listeners that you
don't go home and spill tobonnie everything that's been
talked about in the meetings nono, but it kind of came across
that way, because you said whenyou're tired, you get home and
bonnie will listen to you.
Blah, blah, blah.
When I heard it I was like yeah, that's not, I mean, I'll come
home, okay, yeah yeah, I'll comehome and talk to katie about
stuff.

Speaker 3 (02:22):
That's not.
I mean, I'll come home.

Speaker 1 (02:23):
Okay, I get what you mean.
Yeah, yeah, I'll come home andtalk to Katie about stuff that's
happened in the meeting andstuff, but I don't spit names, I
don't spit anything like that.
Okay, I know what you'retalking about.

Speaker 3 (02:30):
Well, I meant stuff I'm going to do in a fifth step
or doing step work with a man,when she said well, my and my,
my son's there, we're training.
And she says when you come homeit's the same look, the same
energy, even though you're tired, you know.

(02:51):
Usually then you come homeafter you've worked with another
man, you know done step work orsomething which is something I
enjoy, and we talk about it, butI know I don't.
You know it's that same fire inthe world.
Because I'll be usually realexcited talking about God.
And you get all juiced up andit's just amazing how God's
working in that man's life.
But I still stick to my fourrules, for sure.

Speaker 1 (03:11):
And I know I heard you say it and I knew what you
meant, but I just wanted to makesure our listeners no good,
yeah, I mean, like I said, Iheard that and you know what you
said you're tired again todayin the meeting.
Oh beat, okay, I'm gonna goback to this I've overdone the
balance thing.

Speaker 3 (03:28):
Again I've done to the extreme yeah I've done it.

Speaker 1 (03:31):
Okay.
You're checking yourself.
Yeah, I'm there because, like Isaid, I I worry about you
because you know what, when Ineed you, I need to make sure
you're there for me.
I don't give a fuck about anyof those other people.
I got you I want to just makesure you're there for me, and I
need you fresh anytime I call.
I'm working on it.

Speaker 3 (03:48):
Tuesdays are now done .
Tuesdays are open.
Why are you echoing?
Because I'm way low.
Why are you echoing?

Speaker 4 (03:55):
I don't know, larry, we just had a meeting today
about being selfish andself-centered.

Speaker 1 (04:01):
You know why I had to leave, mike?
Because they were talking aboutme too much.
I had to get the fuck out ofthere.
I'm like God damn it, this istoo much like me.
I got to go.
No, my phone, my work phonesgot blown up, so I had to get
the hell out of there.
I had all kinds of stuff goingon.
All right back to the meeting.
All right, so we talked aboutyou.

(04:21):
So I want to correct somethingMike, about we talked last week.
I had a few of our listenersthat asked about Joseph.

Speaker 4 (04:30):
How is Joseph doing?
Joseph's fine he's.
I have to ask my wife how oldhe is.
I'm terrible at birthdays.
What is Joe 45?

Speaker 2 (04:39):
Joseph is 44.

Speaker 4 (04:41):
44.
And he's fine.
He's disabled, you know helives, lives with us and will
tell we're gone, um, but he getsaround fine.
He can't drive stuff like that.
Um, if you looked at him itappears like maybe he had a
stroke, like one side of hisbody doesn't work, okay, but

(05:02):
he's, and how is he?

Speaker 3 (05:03):
how's he mentally?

Speaker 2 (05:04):
short-term memory issues yeah epilepsy, okay, um,
but other than that, um,cognitively he's younger than
his age, but, um, he's stillpretty sharp and good sense of
humor that voice is who?

Speaker 1 (05:22):
mike Mike, my beautiful wife.

Speaker 4 (05:25):
Kimberly, the brains of the outfit.

Speaker 1 (05:27):
There you go, you know we kind of jumped right
into this and that's fine At theend of episode 42, I think was
Mike, and we got to talkingabout Kim quite a bit and at the
end of Jason's first first twostories you know jason was
episode three and four and mywife kept telling me and 20

(05:51):
right yes, three, well, 20 washim and jenny, right, right.
So after three and four, katiekept after me.
She's like larry, jason's storyis not done.
Jason's story is not done.
And I'm like is not done andI'm like what are you talking
about?
And I kept going back andlistening.
I'm like, oh man, we need tobring Jenny in right, because
that's the big part of hisrecovery.

(06:12):
And when I was editing, when Iwas finishing up Mike's story
the second part of it, towardsthe end of it, we really started
talking about Kim.
Talking about Kim and I and Ithought to myself, oh no, we got
to bring Kim back, cause ouroriginal thought was to bring
Jason back in and do that?
Do you know?
Finish up a little bit, butthen I was like there's no way
we can't finish a story likethat.

(06:34):
We got to finish it with Kim,because this is, this is the
recovery part that we talkedabout, why we do that.
The biggest thing is therecovery between you two and how
you guys are doing, and that'swhat we want to talk about today
.
So I want to ask a couplequestions.
Kim, nine months ago, when Mikesaid I'm done, how'd that make

(06:58):
you feel?

Speaker 2 (07:04):
That's hard.
I was at work and I know he hadbeen talking to somebody at the
recovery at new hope.
Yes, and um, I was going backand forth and and he called me
up and said he's calling an Uberand he's going into recovery.

(07:28):
And I said don't call an Uber,I'm on my way to pick you up.
Cause I know how Michael is, Iknow I needed to be there with
him and um, so I picked him upand drove him and hopeful I felt
, hopeful good, different thistime once I picked him up.

Speaker 1 (07:52):
Yes, oh good, you saw it I seen his attitude.

Speaker 2 (07:57):
I seen um, yeah, his attitude.
His demeanor was totallydifferent this time he was ready
.

Speaker 1 (08:06):
Awesome, I've been dying to ask you that question.
I have because I think when,katie, when I made the decision
to go undercover, I saw the lookon my wife's face change and I
knew I'd made the right choice,because she saw it.
I think she knew it right,choice, right.
And I cause she, she saw it.
I think she knew it right away.

(08:26):
Right, she, she knew that I wasdone.
It was a rough one.
So, anyways, like I said, I'vebeen dying to ask that question
and we cleared up Joseph.
So I want to go back.
We're going to.
We're going to go back becausenow we're going to talk.
You know, mike's already toldthe story, but I want to go back
and I want to tell it a littlebit more.

(08:48):
I want to go back to the timewhere he, you, were sitting on
the couch and he walked in andhe told what was her name.
I'm here for her.

Speaker 3 (08:54):
Yeah, not you.

Speaker 2 (08:56):
The gal opened up the door excited to see him, and
he's I'm here for you let's talkabout that I wanted to crawl,
um yeah and, and she just lookedshocked and I was shocked and
mike's just like well likeyou're gonna get up or what?

(09:18):
And right then, I should havetold him to take a hike, but it
was meant to be so.

Speaker 4 (09:26):
I got up Right right, right, she said she should have
ran.

Speaker 1 (09:32):
But how many years later did you decide you should
have?

Speaker 2 (09:35):
ran.

Speaker 1 (09:36):
Shortly after that probably.

Speaker 2 (09:39):
No, never, never.

Speaker 1 (09:41):
So how long were you guys together when Joseph got in
his accident?

Speaker 2 (09:49):
Four years together.
Two years married.

Speaker 3 (09:52):
Okay, and Michael was a year old.

Speaker 2 (09:54):
Just over a year old.

Speaker 1 (09:55):
Okay, Okay, so you guys had a very established
relationship.
I think that was a little bit.
I was confused.
Yeah, because the way Mike kindof talked about it was like
right, then then boom boom.
He was just talking about thehighlights.

Speaker 3 (10:07):
You know, Kim and I got together.
Then, Joseph, you know, didn'tRight.

Speaker 1 (10:10):
So that's one of the things, and how did you handle
that?
Because that was traumatic foryou, even though you guys had
been together for that long.
Was Joseph living with you guys?
He was living with you guys.

Speaker 3 (10:22):
Yeah, Mike had got custody of him by then.

Speaker 1 (10:23):
Right, right, right.
So how did that?
I mean how?
What kind of transition wasthat for you?
Because now you're going fromcaring for a one-year-old, now
you're caring for a husbandthat's starting to drink again
and and possibly having to bringhome two infants, I mean, and
not even for sure.
So how did you handle that?

Speaker 2 (10:43):
God.

Speaker 1 (10:44):
How'd it so how?

Speaker 2 (10:45):
did you handle that?
God Attagirl, god Prayer.
We went to a small church atthe time as well, and so we had
a lot of prayer warriors aroundus and support.
Okay, and did you notice Mikestarting to drink again at that
time?
Well, I think he wasn'tdrinking heavily, that I knew it

(11:11):
okay.
Um, he just started drinkingagain.
Um, there was a time afterjoseph got back from the
hospital that he um starteddrinking more, not coming home
home straight after work hangingaround people that maybe he
shouldn't be A little different.

Speaker 1 (11:28):
A little different, I think he was just, it was kind
of like a.

Speaker 2 (11:33):
He uses it as a de-stressor.

Speaker 1 (11:35):
Right, right.
Well, I mean.

Speaker 2 (11:37):
Yeah, and he had been through a lot.

Speaker 3 (11:39):
Right, but you'd been through a lot, too, and you
weren't using it as ade-stressor.
True, true, but you'd beenthrough a lot, too, and you were
using it as a de-stressor.

Speaker 2 (11:43):
True, true.
Not that I didn't drink, butyeah, I was taking care of my
responsibilities.
And he was too, for the mostpart, you were drinking a little
bit yourself, okay, but notlike he was, not like he was.

Speaker 1 (12:00):
So how long after Joseph?
All that Because?
Did you go into a rehab, or didyou?
When was your first rehab?

Speaker 3 (12:09):
Mike, all your rehabs correct me if I'm wrong were
after Michael.

Speaker 1 (12:13):
Oh, was it after Michael.

Speaker 3 (12:15):
Because after Joseph, when Joseph got home, you guys
had 16 years really togethertaking care of Joseph Michael
growing up.
What was going on during thattime, that 16 years Life?

Speaker 2 (12:24):
it was going on during that time, that 16 years
Life it was, it was good it was.

Speaker 3 (12:30):
I mean, he wasn't off the rails, he was just dad Just
working, just provider Michaelworked hard.

Speaker 2 (12:35):
He worked really hard .
He's a great provider.
I was a stay-at-home mom andlife was good.

Speaker 1 (12:43):
Okay, yeah, so.
So when that's, I don't evenknow how to go into this.

Speaker 3 (12:51):
This topic I know Kim .

Speaker 1 (12:54):
I'm really trying to do this, cause you guys were
recording on May 10th.
And Mikey's accident wasyesterday.
18 years, yeah, 18 years, andevery year because Jason's.

Speaker 3 (13:09):
So every year this time I call, I text him or call
him and we talk and he'll justhow you doing, jason, love you.
Then we'll just talk about you,know.

Speaker 1 (13:16):
So how are you doing?

Speaker 2 (13:19):
I'm doing well.
I come into it with a heart ofgratitude, oh, wow, okay.
From day one.
Just about, Try not to cry.

Speaker 1 (13:30):
You're fine.

Speaker 2 (13:32):
That I was blessed to be Michael's mother.

Speaker 1 (13:37):
Wow Okay.

Speaker 2 (13:38):
And I wouldn't trade those 17 years with him.
I love it To have him one moreminute.
You know I'm, I'm, I couldn'task for a better child.

Speaker 1 (13:55):
And so I'm really trying to figure out how to
transition.

Speaker 3 (13:58):
I mean, I could sit here.
I have a question, if I can.

Speaker 1 (14:01):
Go ahead, please.
Well, it's your show too fool,Because I mean we, if I can Go
ahead please.

Speaker 3 (14:04):
Well, because I've been.
Well, it's your show too foolEverything.
So, Good God, Because I meanwe've covered this.
You are fresh with Mike andI've been kicking him since he
got into the room.
He's never mentioned my nameBecause I was not.
He was not my biggest fan whenhe got in there, because, I mean
, because I heard Jason's storyI got to live it with him.
You know I first met Mike at 17, whatever this, you know at the

(14:28):
Butler, because my wife isrelated to Rodney Butler so we
would go over there for theTyler stuff and you know that's
where I first met him.
Then to see him come back inthe rooms and knowing what he
has not dealt with.
And Jason has.
He'll be coming up on eightyears sober.
You know I got to be a part ofthat, so we've covered all this
ground.
But now every Thursday before Igo to my because I sponsor guys
, so before the big book study,after I get done doing my work

(14:54):
with the guy, I'll step asideand I'll read this.
That's amazing.
That's 17 years old or 60,whenever he wrote that.
What a heart you know.
So that's just kind of keepthat with me.
Read it fool.

Speaker 1 (15:03):
Now that you, nobody on this, nobody on the podcast,
has visual.

Speaker 3 (15:16):
This is a.
This is a poem that MichaelMikey, your guy's son, wrote,
and Mike gave us copies of this.
This prayer from a teenagerLord, you're the coolest.
You can do anything.
You're bigger than anything.
You can fix everything if youwanted to.
You are glorious to us, lord,you went through all that just
for us, ignorant, selfish fools.
We do all things, bad things,but you're always there to help

(15:44):
us and forgive.
As those nails went throughyour hands and feet, you weren't
thinking of how much it hurt.
You were thinking about us.
You're more than I can express.
You died for us.
Your last breaths were for us.
You didn't feel sorry foryourself.
You are the king of kings andlord of lords, the alpha and the
Omega.
You are the Big Bang.

(16:05):
You created everything.
You show the path of our life.
You are the light.
You will come back for us.
It could be today or a millionyears from now.
There is no tomorrow.
You'll decide when the time isright.
Amen, amen.

Speaker 1 (16:20):
You know, he was 16 when he wrote that.

Speaker 2 (16:24):
Somewhere around there maybe.
Maybe give or take.

Speaker 3 (16:27):
I was not thinking of that.

Speaker 1 (16:29):
No, I was wrestling but I wasn't like that.
No, good grief.
No.
So I don't want to go into theaccident.
A ton Right.

Speaker 3 (16:40):
I have a question why do you keep raising your hand?
This is your damn show, toofool I want to get your
attention.

Speaker 1 (16:44):
This is your damn show, too fool.

Speaker 3 (16:45):
I want to know about Mike.
Okay, well, we talked aboutright after Joseph Mikey's a
year.
You guys have the 16 yearsbefore the accident.
What was that Mike like Then?
The Mike after the accident,and then to the Mike that you
see now.
And how did you?

(17:07):
I know God's the the answer,but I want to know about him,
what the changes you saw in himbring it into the light, kim, as
you would tell mike, bring itinto the light yeah, we've heard
about you in a lot of meetings.

Speaker 1 (17:16):
I promise you you've created a lot of laughter, and
but what do?

Speaker 3 (17:21):
you just want to say one, because I love the big book
.
Mike knows I do and I'm nevergoing to get that other crappy
one, mike.
I want to share this becausewhen he shares of you, I think
of my wife, and this is part ofDr Bob.
Dr Bob's a nightmare he shares.
For some reason, we alcoholicsseem to have the gift of picking
out the world's finest women.
Why they should be subjected tothe tortures we inflict upon

(17:50):
them.
I can never explain.
Tell me about Mike.

Speaker 2 (17:52):
Michael, he is.

Speaker 3 (17:59):
Because the 16 years was great.

Speaker 2 (18:01):
Yes, he is the best man I've ever met.
I've never met a man that Iconsider better than him
Hardworking, hardheaded,generous, loving he's never,

(18:30):
given himself enough credit.
He's his own worst critic.

Speaker 1 (18:33):
I think most of us alcoholics are he never felt
worthy.

Speaker 2 (18:41):
I would say that was his worst thing about him Is
that he never gave himself abreak.

Speaker 1 (18:47):
That's true for a lot of alcoholics.

Speaker 3 (18:50):
And when the accident happened, Michael, what changed
in him Besides the drinking he?

Speaker 2 (18:57):
broke, he completely broke.

Speaker 3 (19:06):
He had no coping skills.
And how many years are webeyond the wreck?
Is 2007, am I correct?
Yes, so we're what?
19 years, 18, 18 years, yep, 18years and now?
Like you guys, is eight nineyears, nine months sober coming
up.
Yep, that's a journey.
I mean that.
That's the story right there ofhow you I mean again, we
married.
The most most amazing.

(19:27):
I don't know how my wife stuckwith me right.

Speaker 1 (19:29):
I mean it's.
It's amazing when we sit backand we look at.
You know I put my wife throughabout as much about that amount
of time.
The difference was she waswatching my, she was watching
her husband just disintegrate,but she didn't lose a child.
You were having to grieve yourchild.

Speaker 3 (19:52):
And worry about him.

Speaker 1 (19:54):
You were watching your husband slowly kill himself
, and that had to be justextremely rough on you.
Thank God, you had a God.
Well, talk about that.

Speaker 2 (20:06):
Well, unfortunately, I gave.
I did give my grief to God.
I gave my son to God.
I didn't give my husband to God.

Speaker 1 (20:16):
There you go.

Speaker 2 (20:18):
I, um, I was mad at him Very angry, scared, and I
was mad at him very angry,scared and truthfully, I piled
it on him.

Speaker 1 (20:34):
How could?

Speaker 2 (20:34):
you do this to me?
How could you do this to us?
How could you do this to ourchild's memory?
You know, I lost my son, welost our son.
Now we're going to lose ourmarriage.
We were told 85% of marriagesdon't last losing a child.

Speaker 4 (20:50):
That's huge.
It was a bigger percent thanthat.

Speaker 3 (20:54):
And why is that do you think?
And having been through thatexperience, Because you grieve
differently.
But he wasn't grieving at all.

Speaker 2 (21:00):
No, and I felt abandoned by him and I was was
fighting for us, but I wasfighting in the wrong way how so
?

Speaker 3 (21:11):
um trying to oh, guilt him into it or beat him
into it.
Shake, shake it in, yeah justgo.

Speaker 2 (21:17):
What are you thinking you're doing?
Because we grew up in thatlifestyle and I'm like.
Here it is.

Speaker 1 (21:24):
Right.
Look at yourself.

Speaker 2 (21:26):
Because our son died.
We're going where we neverwanted to go.

Speaker 1 (21:30):
Right.

Speaker 2 (21:31):
And it was devastating and I made it worse.

Speaker 1 (21:35):
Wow, when were you able to tell yourself that
that's a big statement?

Speaker 2 (21:42):
When I thought, when I finally surrendered and got on
my knees and crying out to God,saying I don't know what to do.
He's going to die or ourmarriage is going to end.
I just don't know what to dowith the Lord.

(22:03):
And he told me you're talkingabout your vision.
He spoke to me and he said it'snot your battle.

Speaker 1 (22:16):
He goes, it's my battle.

Speaker 2 (22:17):
He goes, Kim, just love him.
Show him mercy and grace, likeI've shown you, and so I said
okay, and from that moment on,things just gradually got better

(22:37):
and better and better, evenwhen he was still drinking.
Our marriage, god was repairingour marriage.

Speaker 1 (22:43):
Okay, did you feel that, mike?
Did you feel that?
Or were you so far into youralcohol?
You did not see that feel that?

Speaker 4 (22:53):
No, I think I did, Because you know the pressure
came off, Okay, and that's whenI would be saying like her
Remember, I've said it beforelike she was trying to help me
wean off and just stop, and, andI agreed, you know, gave her my
keys, my wallet and all this,but I had a extra set of keys in

(23:16):
the drawer but you had stuffhidden in the helmet.

Speaker 3 (23:20):
Oh yeah, okay, kimmy, one thing he, he, he, he lays
it out there, he gives it to us.

Speaker 1 (23:25):
Well, you know one thing Okay, I got to stop
because I got to ask thisquestion.
From that time, you gave it.

Speaker 3 (23:33):
No, when was that time, kim, when you surrendered?

Speaker 2 (23:36):
God bless it, I'm going to throw this fucking book
at you.

Speaker 1 (23:41):
Stop brain, my brain.
From the time you were on yourknees giving that prayer to the
time that mike called you saidI'm headed in, but how long can
you put a time frame on that?

Speaker 2 (23:53):
I wish I was more of a journaler but, um, it was
probably.
We started going back to churchagain um three years ago, on
easter Okay, and almost everySunday I mean, and we were
involved in some epic groupsthey call themthat's what she

(24:14):
would tell Mike.

Speaker 3 (24:14):
Just don't say nothing.
I was thinking the same thing.
Just don't breathe.

Speaker 1 (24:18):
I was thinking the same thing.
Just don't talk to nobody here.
Eat a mint.
Oh, I did.
I did say that a few times.
Just don't talk to nobody hereeat a mint.

Speaker 2 (24:23):
Oh, I did.
I did say that a few times, butyou know, my faith was growing
stronger in my prayer life andI'd say a year and a half two
years.

Speaker 1 (24:40):
Okay, I think there are two reasons why I asked that
question.
One, I felt that Katie hadbacked off.
Katie had stopped trying tohelp me.
She, she, just she turned itover.
She had to.
My wife was dealing with andI'm not trying to make this
about me whatsoever, but this isjust goes to show how strong

(25:00):
God is in in this because mywife, uh, three, two alcoholics
in her life, very closealcoholics, one being me and her
dad battling cancer, all at thesame time.
She literally had to turn herhusband over because the other
two, she, she had to deal with.

(25:20):
She didn't have to deal with meanymore.
So she turned me over and I'mgoing to probably say I'd have
to ask her, probably about ayear, about a year before I
finally when we get them onRight, the two wives Right.

Speaker 3 (25:34):
We're going to hash all that out.

Speaker 1 (25:35):
It's going to be an interesting question because,
honestly, until you said that,how you said that, I firmly
believe that Katie had to do thesame thing?
Yeah, because, as she waspressuring me, there was no way
I was gonna the harder pressureshe put on me bring it into the
light, right?

Speaker 4 (25:51):
well, the more, the more she tried, the harder we
put.
Was my excuse, right, you?
You made me have to go get morebeer because you only left me
three.
Right, and it's your fault ofcourse self is in page 62 and
she didn't know about this vodkafor a while that I was sneaking
right.

(26:11):
She found out, you know,because she's like a ninja she
just pops up and so that was herfault too.
Right catching me, but then,yeah, I can still see her face.

Speaker 1 (26:23):
That was like horrified look, and I'm gonna
ask a couple other questionsbecause I'm gonna try and get to
something that mike brought up.
But tell me about some of thehorrific, some of the scariest
moments that, if you can thinkof a couple scary moments of
things that you caught mikedoing or signs that you saw Mike

(26:46):
that just literally scared you,Like is this the day?

Speaker 3 (26:51):
Is this the day?
I'm going to bury my husbandnow Because I don't know, or was
it just consistent?

Speaker 2 (26:56):
There was one time where this man, this strange man
, showed up on my front porchand he was telling me that my
husband was on his way to thehospital.
Because he came upon him, hewas riding a bike.

Speaker 3 (27:12):
Oh, I remember that story.

Speaker 2 (27:15):
And that he found my husband sitting on the tailgate
of our truck and he had cut hisself and he was just sitting
there and and um, the man youknow talked with my husband, um,
and called the sheriffs andmike went into the hospital.

(27:37):
That was one not voluntarily acouple times um mike in the
hospital, pancreatitis, mm-hmm,mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
I don't know if I can say theother one Okay.

Speaker 1 (28:01):
You don't want to say it, because we've already
talked about some things.

Speaker 4 (28:06):
I know what it's probably about, do I?
Maybe, when you caught me withthe bag.
Yeah, no, the rope.

Speaker 2 (28:15):
Close.

Speaker 1 (28:18):
Like I said, remember that we can cut stuff out if we
need to I forgot, right?
I mean, if we need to cut somestuff out and you're not
comfortable with it after wespeak about it.

Speaker 2 (28:26):
You know, I, I, I I'm open, right.
Well, and remember, these arehealing these are.

Speaker 1 (28:32):
This is for healing and not only for for you guys,
but we go to a lot of listenersand may need I've used the mic
when jason's not available andmike's been gracious enough.

Speaker 3 (28:38):
We don't, because matt and mary maybe, if you've,
we go to a lot of listeners andmay need to use the mic when
Jason's not available and Mike'sbeen gracious enough.
We don't.
We has Matt and Mary.
Maybe if you've been listeningto the podcast, there's another
gentleman I sponsor.
They lost their child last year.
He went through a year not evenquite a year four months of
cancer, brain cancer, six toseven years old, and I've used
Mike more than one time to helpme help him.
He'll tell Matt, you know cause, father, father, and it's been

(29:00):
amazing.

Speaker 1 (29:01):
So please feel comfortable to talk about it.
Cause it's cause those two.

Speaker 3 (29:05):
they're going to listen to this Right.

Speaker 2 (29:07):
Um, yeah, it was, um gosh, probably four years after
Michael passed.
And, yeah, I walked outside.
Um, it was morning time and waslooking for Mike and came
outside the garage and aroundthe corner and he had a bag and

(29:32):
a pipe and I just fell to myknees and couldn't believe what
I was seeing.

Speaker 1 (29:43):
How did you confront him with that?

Speaker 2 (29:52):
Just asked why.
How could you?
This is the worst of the worstin my eyes.

Speaker 1 (30:00):
Taking you back to your childhood.

Speaker 2 (30:03):
Worse.
You know, because you see thepeople today.
I don't know.
I think drugs are totallydifferent today than they were
when I was a child.
Yes, they do more damage, Ithink.

Speaker 1 (30:22):
Laced with just all kinds of stuff.

Speaker 2 (30:25):
So I was I just, my life was just unraveling.

Speaker 1 (30:32):
Do you remember that, Mike?

Speaker 4 (30:33):
Yeah, I can remember the look on her face.

Speaker 1 (30:37):
Do you remember how you felt when she caught you?

Speaker 4 (30:44):
Well, do you remember how you felt when she caught
you?
Well, it's hard to say.
I felt like a dumbass at firstbecause I was standing right out
there in the open, almost likeyou wanted to get caught.
Yeah, I mean I'm standing rightout there.

Speaker 3 (30:58):
That's the shit we think about.
Yeah, that's the first thingthat comes to our mind.

Speaker 4 (31:01):
I don't know if that was the first thing.
The first thing was just Pick abetter hiding spot.
That, um, how's it going to getout of this Right?
Thank you.

Speaker 1 (31:14):
That's the insanity of the brain that we have, right
, the addiction.
That's the addiction in us.
How am I going to spin this?
Yeah, how am I going to spinthis to make it not look so bad?
It's my first time.

Speaker 4 (31:32):
I mean just all kinds of thoughts go into your head.
I know that I could see thebroken heart in her face.

Speaker 1 (31:37):
What does Jason say?
The incomprehensibledemoralization that he saw on
her face.

Speaker 4 (31:42):
And Kim's yeah His wife was named Kim too, but I
seen her.
Yeah, I can picture that facestill.
That breaks my heart today.
Then it did too, but probablyjust for a minute because I was
still going to go about killingmyself.
But I had to smooth this outsomehow and it just went.

(32:09):
She didn't know what to do.
I remember she called mybrother.
She was trying to get anybodyinvolved that could maybe help,
because she was at the end ofher Did an intervention Didn't
work.

Speaker 2 (32:17):
She was at the end of her intervention.
I just ended up pretty muchnobody helped, nobody helped and
she was trying her best to getanybody that could help do
anything but now what does thatsound like when you're what

(32:40):
started the podcast?

Speaker 1 (32:42):
this is why I love rob and me on this, because
rob's over there reading mybrain right now, because
literally which is why thepodcast talked about why I'm up.
Why this podcast started isbecause when we see somebody in
that addiction, they're eventhough we know there's nothing,
there's nothing.

Speaker 3 (33:01):
Anybody on this earth can tell him.

Speaker 1 (33:02):
When I was ready when I was deep in my drinking there
wasn't not a fucking thing.
Anybody was going to say do anyanything that was going to drag
me out of that until I wantedto come out of it human beings
move at the speed of pain right,well, let me.

Speaker 4 (33:21):
I'm gonna just add one little bit to this.
Getting caught with the bag, mybrother comes over.
I'm just running around likehiding or whatever that was a
different time okay, well,whatever, she tried to show him
what I was doing and he's likenot into drugs, doesn't drink.

(33:42):
And I remember I was coming outof the bathroom in our laundry
room and he had that bag andthey were talking Bag of heroin.

Speaker 1 (33:52):
I'm going to assume no Meth Meth.

Speaker 4 (33:55):
Okay, yeah, and um, I seen him looking at it and
she's like crying and she'sstill trying to get help.
You know, trying to getsomebody to help do something.
I I'm walking by and I lookdown and see it in his hand and
I snatched it and said that'smine and I walked by her and

(34:15):
left, wow, wow, because that wasmore important right important
right then than staying andhearing whatever I was going to
hear, which was not, like yousaid, wasn't going to happen.

Speaker 1 (34:30):
Well, for me.
I just want to speak.
I knew I was fucked right.
I knew how deep.
I didn't need somebody tocontinually tell me how deep
into addiction I was.
You know mine was just alcohol.
I thank God that I didn't getto that part.
You know my depression was sobad that I was perfectly happy

(34:51):
with my alcohol to a certainpoint.
I didn't want to go around this.
I wanted to go about that lowand as far as I wanted to go.
I didn't want to go below that.
But I knew how big of a pieceof shit I was.
I knew it and I think Mike kindof knew at that point and
didn't care.

Speaker 4 (35:11):
He was happy, right there.

Speaker 2 (35:12):
Like when people talk about hitting their bottom.

Speaker 4 (35:14):
I say I went to bottom and just stayed there
Drug along the bottom.
Yeah, I just stayed in thebottom and I think the meth came
into play with um.
However it came into play, itwas like anti-depressant.
I thought like the life was up,but it just kept me able to
drink.

Speaker 2 (35:32):
Function right, keep drinking right, because he
blamed me for this one too ohbecause he was no longer getting
prescribed, if I get it Okay,oh, that's right.

Speaker 1 (35:43):
Just get ready to ask you about that.
Yeah, honestly, if Viking was apart of that, it was a part of
that.
Oh, big time, yeah.
But see here's where I maybeOkay, cause I never play with
math and I but I know what.
But shut up, you fucking dick,damn guys.
Hey, but so you went fromVicodin to meth, isn't that

(36:06):
going the other direction?

Speaker 4 (36:08):
Well, I don't know.
They say Vicodin has differenteffects on different Right what
it does.
When I was going through cancer.

Speaker 3 (36:15):
I tried to manage my pain with different because it
was ungodly.
And I tried Norco's and what itdid for two days.
I couldn't sleep.

Speaker 4 (36:24):
I was just it felt to me, it felt like back and I was
like why, that's how thatworked for me just wired wide
open really so I couldn't dothat anymore I I take.

Speaker 1 (36:34):
This is one of the main reasons why I'm not a big
fan of taking pain pills.
They put me out.
I take one and I'm out for fourhours out.
That's why when I hear peopletalking about taking handfuls of
these vicodins, I'm like I'd befucking dead some people well,
you got to build up to that.

Speaker 4 (36:50):
They'll pass out, but in the end I was a 30-day thing
from the doctor didn't evenlast a little over a week.

Speaker 2 (36:58):
Okay, that that's why Michael had pancreatitis as
well.

Speaker 4 (37:03):
From the pills, from the pills Drinking and pills
Right, because I would start myday with eight Vicodins to tens
chew them up in my mouth and sixor eight beers at three or four
in the morning, right, yeah.

Speaker 2 (37:18):
And he went to the doctor every day, just about.

Speaker 4 (37:21):
To get more pills.
That, and sometimes asking forhelp.

Speaker 1 (37:27):
And I still got more.
What do?

Speaker 4 (37:28):
you mean by asking for help, telling them I needed
to get off these before, andthen he prescribed me some worse
methadone.
Yeah, yeah.
And then, how many are youdrinking a day?
Cause I went and said I'mdrinking too much and I said who
counts, yeah?

Speaker 1 (37:45):
Yeah, I gave that.
I'm not an accountantmotherfucker.

Speaker 3 (37:47):
I'm an alcoholic who counts that shit.

Speaker 4 (37:50):
And basically.

Speaker 1 (37:52):
The wives do.

Speaker 4 (37:52):
Yeah, Guaranteed the wives do.
I could put.

Speaker 3 (37:56):
I played every game so every game like so.
So here's I can just picturehere's, mike, because this is
what we are.
You come in, I can't.
Okay, you're havingpancreatitis.
No more, no more pills for you,mike, and no more drinking, you
know, because you gotpancreatitis.
Okay, I'll keep the drink andI'll get rid of the pills.
I'll start meth they and thenkim.
That's how we think I didn'tlike methadone.

Speaker 4 (38:16):
What did that do?
This is the first time I'veheard about this.

Speaker 3 (38:18):
Well, what did methadone do?
I know what it is, but what didit do to you?

Speaker 4 (38:21):
it would make it like larry thought.
You know you just catch yourheartbeats.
Go out.
Who the hell wants that?
Yeah, and so I dumped them, andbecause it would put you to
sleep methadone would yeah, justwell, and I didn't like the way
it made me feel, even if Icould stay working on it, but I
never took eight or ten at atime like I would like it, and
that's the other question Iwanted to bring up and sorry, I

(38:43):
think I'm going to did.

Speaker 1 (38:44):
Were you still working at this time?
Full time?

Speaker 3 (38:47):
well, how long?
Because you're 62 now.
How long have you been retired,kim?
How long has he been?
He's terrible at dates and andtimes um, it's probably.

Speaker 2 (38:56):
I've been working eight years now, so it's
probably been about five, okay.

Speaker 1 (39:01):
Okay, so the last five years, the last when you
retired, you really had to gooff the rails.

Speaker 4 (39:06):
Oh, yeah, All day long I was doing it when I was.

Speaker 3 (39:11):
Is that when you were , there came a time where I was
getting uh, rationed, is thatwhen you were rationing him
towards the end, you know hetowards the end, you know he
would get his three?

Speaker 2 (39:20):
beers and um, that was just trying to help him not
dt yeah, because he said towardsthe end, before I went to rehab
, he wanted to stop and that'swhen I let her take my wallet,
my keys.

Speaker 4 (39:32):
she didn't try forcibly.
I said take them, you know,because I in my head I wanted to
quit, right, like I said, I'dbe praying to God to take it
away, and I was puking out abeer, reaching for another one.
That was right.
Not long before I went in Iguess I'd been calling the rehab
for, I thought, a couple weeks.

(39:54):
When I finally got there theysaid try three months.
Oh, wow, okay, I had beencalling them gonna come in, had
these assessment dates and theykept calling me and would never
show and she was pissed.
She said if you're not gonna go,tell these people to quit
calling me, yeah good wow.

Speaker 1 (40:13):
So you were flirting around with that for a while.
You know, I, towards the end.
I can remember several morningson the way to work because my
biggest, my my drink time was Ihad an hour and 15 minutes drive
and that's when I would dothat's.
That's when I woke up Right,I'd have at least a six pack and
have pint before I got to work,and that's how I woke up Right.

(40:37):
I couldn't wake up without that.
I didn't think about.
Three quarters of the way towork is when I'd be just crying
and praying God, stop this, stopthis insanity.

Speaker 3 (40:48):
Okay, and I want to jump on it, because he said the
same thing.
Right, and we had talked aboutthis when Mike was at the Monday
meeting.
When we're there, kim thealcoholic, the addict, when
we're in that moment of to god,we mean it when we're saying
baby, I'm sorry, I'll never doit again.

Speaker 2 (41:06):
We mean it to the bottom of our heart.

Speaker 3 (41:07):
But what we didn't know was this lack of power.
Page 45, page 45 lack of power.
That was our dilemma.
We had to find a power by whichwe could live, and it had to be
a power greater than ourselves,obviously.
But where and how were we tofind this power?
Well, that's exactly what thisbook is about.
That's why when, men, you know,when we were telling in the
monday meeting, when you're onyour knees saying the third step

(41:29):
prayer, asking god for help,and you think, well, god doesn't
show up, no, he didn't show up.
You know why?
Because that's all you ever did.
You hit your knees.
You never got back on your feetand tried to help yourself, you
never got into action.
Lord, this is how serious I am.
So of course he's not going toanswer.
You can't pray for a fuckinghole while you're leaning on a
shovel.
He's going to say son, I gaveyou a tool and you've got too
warm, start digging.
But we never start digging.

(41:50):
We just want god to do all theheavy lifting, and he will if
we'll do the action.
And that's what we've neverdone.
And mike said you know we meanit, but we didn't realize we
didn't have the power and we hadto not just surrender, but get
into action.
Hey, I need help.

Speaker 1 (42:04):
And that's the biggest thing.
Even you know, I walkingsomebody through right, trying
to get somebody through thesteps, my first time walking
something is getting them tounderstand that, like, this guy
is 41 years, 41 years old.
And I've told you, like I'd say, and I've heard Rob say this,
you know you're 41 years old andI've told you, like I'd say,
and I've heard rob say this, youknow you're 41 years old.
How's it?
You know how?
How has it worked for you sofar?

(42:26):
Not relying on something elsebeside yourself, right, your
best thinking got you here gotyou right here something else
right, just god thinking, whichyou've already found?

Speaker 2 (42:36):
yeah, I mean so I mean, you would not be a while
too but you wouldn't be here,you guys wouldn't be together.

Speaker 3 (42:42):
He would not have a wife.
He'd probably be dead.
Had you not found, leaned onhim, leaned on our father, it
wouldn't be here.
I mean, he's got, let's behonest.
That's why dr bob wrote that wedidn't have not, that everybody
has that wife, I know, but wedo.

Speaker 1 (42:56):
We do we do?
Oh, for sure I wouldn't be hereI know, thank you, yeah the
ones that come into this programbroken, without wives and
without you, know that have losteverything you tend to because
going on.

Speaker 2 (43:09):
They didn't lose it, they threw it away.

Speaker 1 (43:11):
They gave it away.
Sorry, you're right, wordsmatter.
I hear what Rob says and then Ilook back and I think about
these guys that have lost theirwives, lost their kids, lost
everything.
You know that nothing stuckwith them and you tend to ask
yourself was it just not God'stiming for them?
Was God not in the way of thewoman that left?

(43:33):
I mean, you hear that kind ofstuff, but then I think back.
All I can say is thank God.
Thank God For me and Katie'stold me this straight point
blank if I'd have lost my job,she would have been gone right.
The only thing keeping her is A.
She loved the man.
She loved the man.
I was prior and I was keeping aroof over her head, and if

(43:57):
something would have happenedshe would have had to leave,
right, and then it would havebeen up to me what I'd done.
So I mean I weren't.

Speaker 2 (44:08):
With me because he wasn't working and he hadn't yet
he still hasn't touched hisretirement With me.
He was sick and he was hurtingand, yes, it was tough and

(44:33):
sometimes I had people tell meyou should leave.
Sometimes I felt like leavingbut I said vows.

Speaker 1 (44:44):
Yep, there you go, right there.

Speaker 2 (44:50):
And I needed to honor those vows.
And that's how I felt and I,like your wife, I know the man
Right.
I've always known him.

Speaker 3 (45:01):
The potential.

Speaker 2 (45:03):
And he's never known it.

Speaker 1 (45:04):
That's not what you married.
That's what Katie would alwayssay that man that you became was
not the man I married.

Speaker 2 (45:12):
And he had two sons and I'm not excusing him, but
he's been through a lot, notthat people aren't.
Yes, I was through a lot, notthat people aren't.
You know, I, I, yes, I wasthrough a lot too.
Um but I didn't break likeMichael did.
Michael broke Um and he, hedidn't want to.

Speaker 3 (45:33):
And only God could fix him.

Speaker 2 (45:36):
Only God.

Speaker 1 (45:38):
And you had to turn him over.
I did Cause I.

Speaker 2 (45:40):
I was.
I was making it worse.
And what's the verse?
Lean not unto your ownunderstanding.

Speaker 3 (45:48):
Trust in the Lord and lean not unto your own
understanding.

Speaker 1 (45:53):
So yeah, let's lighten things up a little bit.
Let's go on to the recovery.

Speaker 2 (45:59):
Okay.

Speaker 1 (46:00):
You know, I mean there was.
I want to.
I'm going to do one more thingand I'm going to tell you, I'm
going to preference, why I'mbringing this up.
And one of the things that mademe when Mike, when one of the
things that really wanted me toget Mike's story obviously I
knew the story and I wanted itfor the listeners, but when I

(46:24):
was like I'm getting Mike on, Idon't care what I have to do, I
want Mike's story is when hetold me about and once again I
can cut this when you caught himmaking a noose and I if we can
talk about it, if you want, ifdon't, kim, because when he told
me that there was a red barn onmy way to work and I knew that

(46:53):
and it was on a big S turn.

Speaker 3 (46:56):
And.

Speaker 1 (46:57):
I knew that if I kept going straight that I could
pretty much take away my miseryand it would look like an
accident.
And it would look like anaccident.
It would only make things worseat home.
But I knew I could end mymisery.
Katie never caught that.
She never heard that untilafter.
She didn't realize how deepinto my depression I was.

(47:18):
Until after, thank God, I cameout of it.
But when you saw that, how, how, what was your reason?

Speaker 3 (47:25):
And was this before or after the meth?
You know when, what, what wasthe timeframe when you saw this?

Speaker 2 (47:31):
And I I made a mistake.
The meth came in about fiveyears after Michael's accident.

Speaker 1 (47:36):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (47:40):
I want to say it was after.

Speaker 4 (47:44):
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (47:46):
You know, honestly, I try to not remember that.

Speaker 1 (47:49):
Okay, katie would be the same line.

Speaker 4 (47:55):
I can tell you, I can remember the look on her face.
Was it the same?
Look the same.

Speaker 2 (48:01):
It was just shock, you know, um, and if I'm real,
um, I had I thought about goinghead-on, okay, with vehicle, um,
just like the accident rightthat my son was in.

Speaker 1 (48:21):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (48:27):
You know.
And then we were in Vegas andcaught him once again with meth
and I took all his diazepam,tried to take my life.

Speaker 1 (48:40):
Oh, wow, okay, Okay, diazepam tried to take my life.

Speaker 2 (48:44):
Oh, wow, okay okay, so I struggled to here and there
with um, um, just wanting toend it, just not have the pain
anymore myself okay, you okaymike, yeah, I just probably have
haven't forgot about that, butI tuned it out.

Speaker 3 (49:04):
But we are good compartmentalizers.
This is uh.
Thank you, kim, I do thatabsolutely, kim.
Well, you have to.
I mean, if you want to survivesomething like that, you have to
be able to somewhat then?

Speaker 4 (49:14):
uh, it's just like the third time sitting here.
I can remember her face so now Icame in the room and she oh
yeah, I can remember because Ihad her in the shower screaming
at her, and she just had this,she was just, she was just so

(49:37):
done.
She was and I remember shelooked like a little girl, like
a young little girl, just withthese big eyes, crying, saying
she wants to die, and that waswas like all bad.

(50:04):
I can still picture her in theshower and I'm yelling at her,
trying to get her up.
Got the shower on, she's, gotall her clothes on.
And she just didn't want to getup.
She just said I'm done, I wantto just go then the cops.

Speaker 1 (50:37):
I think I had to call 9-1-1 or something because I
couldn't get her get up.
Okay, so I, I I'm glad I wentdown, that I, I really am, um,
because now we're gonna jump tothe, now we're gonna jump, I
mean, I'm, here's the thing, andand, but it's always darkest
before the.

Speaker 4 (50:52):
Oh my gosh right and I'm so sorry.
You don't know, it's thehardest part.
You don't know, it's thehardest part.
And this stuff is forgivingmyself.
I know you forgive me, but Istill.

Speaker 2 (51:14):
I know how?

Speaker 4 (51:15):
but I want to tell myself I don't know how you can
forgive me, but I know how youdo.
How's that?
Through her faith in God andher belief in the marriage vows
we took and how she really knowsme and I just thank God he gave

(51:35):
me somebody that's strongerthan me, right?
I don't know how many peoplewould say that my wife's way
tougher than a 17-year-oldMarine, thought he was, thought
he could never be broken.
But that stuff broke me beyondsomething I never dreamed from

(51:58):
anything that happened in mywhole life.
But she stood stronger than Iever did or could.
Without her period, I wouldprobably not, probably
definitely be dead.
Absolutely I know I would,because I that would have been
it, and all I did was try andpush her further and further

(52:22):
away so I could just stay inthat misery that nobody could
help.
And I guess the more I pushedher away, I guess deep down in
that darkness it was going toall be better off for her if she
left.
But I knew deep down thatdarkness would be the end of me

(52:47):
if she left.
But I just thank God for her.

Speaker 1 (52:53):
She's an awesome woman that's why I do this
podcast, for the recovery it'sto.
I do this podcast for therecovery it's to, to the joy we,
the joy we get right, andMichael, michael and you may
have already seen it, but thejoy that Rob and I get out of

(53:13):
watching this is, it'sunexplainable.
The joy I get, it's not thatthe joy of seeing the pain, it's
the joy of the joy I get.
It's not that the joy of seeingthe pain, it's the joy of the
coming back out and that's why Iwant to go to here.
The day you dropped him off, Ican remember watching my wife
and kids drive away and the painon their faces.

(53:35):
I don't know if it was pain orjoy when they were driving away.
When you dropped him off thislast time and you had to drive
away, can you explain thatfeeling?

Speaker 2 (53:47):
I did it six times.

Speaker 3 (53:50):
And I understand, but this time you knew Right, she
didn't know, she was hopefulbecause it was different.

Speaker 2 (53:55):
This time was different.
I was hopeful, joyful Mike'sdemeanor when he was joking
around in there before he wasangry wasted.
This time he wasn't, he haddrank of course, but he wasn't
wasted.

(54:15):
They did a breathalyzer on himand they said you're not even
drunk.

Speaker 1 (54:21):
Damn it.
Go, try some more.
Okay, I'll be back, and usuallyhe would.

Speaker 2 (54:25):
He was like go in there.

Speaker 4 (54:28):
And they're the ones that said take an Uber, Right?
Because I was always drunkprobably every time I talked to
him.

Speaker 2 (54:34):
I remember talking to everybody after I dropped him
off family and there because ourniece was close with him at the
time and and just telling themthat, um, he's, his whole
demeanor is so different thistime.
He's, he's ready, he's, he's he.

(54:56):
He was cheerful, he was jokingaround, he was, he wasn't angry,
he was so different.
He wasn't angry, it was sodifferent, it just gave me
chills.

Speaker 1 (55:05):
Yeah, because I mean that.
And, mike, do you remember thatfeeling changed for you when
you got in there?
Do you remember?
The reason why I ask that isbecause I very, very vividly
remember that moment when I knewthat I was going to be okay.
Do you remember that?

Speaker 4 (55:26):
probably was all right, and probably within a
couple days, because she couldtell you exactly how the first
day went that I was having acrazy anxiety attack.
Clinton sits, I was walkingtheir parking lot until 11
o'clock that night, back andforth, half me wanting to run

(55:47):
out the gate just to be backhome, right?
Not, I wasn't thinking aboutdrinking, I was thinking about
her, her, and here I am again.

Speaker 3 (55:57):
That's how I felt the first day, yeah, I mean the
first day was terrible.

Speaker 4 (56:02):
Yeah, and they were.
They had meds coming and allthat.
So you don't det and whatever.
And I was like shaking but Iwasn't like you know, get the
bamboos ready.
But that's what she was worriedabout when she was leaving me
three beers that I drank beforeshe left to work and um went to

(56:24):
the store as soon as she left towork but probably, I don't know
, I settled down second or thirdday and started working my the
program.
I knew that they had, I alwayssay, beat into you the whole
time.
You're in 30 days.
It's a or n a, um do this, dothis.

(56:47):
So all the whole thing.
You knew the routine I knew theroutine, I could teach it and I
started.
Actually, you just couldn'tlive it.
Yeah, that was not for me, youknow, but I started the whole
reason.
Okay, we talked about God beinglike you said.

(57:07):
He prayed to God for a hole andhe gave you a shovel.
And I'm praying and pukingsaying God, take this away.
Well, I've said it in themeetings that he made me willing
to take my butt to rehab.
And so God was in the wholething.

(57:28):
He was taking it away, but heknew I wasn't going to quit.
I mean, while I'm praying andgrabbing another beer, he's like
okay.
Or like you've heard people say, I asked God to help me quit
doing drugs.
He put me in jail, somethinglike that you know it's like.
So God will work in mysteriousways and I believe he works in

(57:49):
our program with you guys.
God uses people.
A lot of people don't get that.
That's right here through youguys, 1000%.
Jesus went and made disciples.
Right.
Why?
To go out and help people.
Right To go out and be thehands and feet, and that's what
the rooms are full of, even ifthey don't know it or are
fighting it.
The god thing is how we'regetting help right.

(58:14):
And so I started working myprogram in the program right
when it started, the first thingGod did with me and she would
help me out with the phone tooPraying, praying for people.
Because you know, in rehabyou're surrounded by idiots,
right, right.

Speaker 3 (58:32):
He's not lying, kim, he's not lying.

Speaker 1 (58:34):
Bunch of losers, people not like me.
Yeah, that's what.

Speaker 4 (58:40):
I thought so much drama, Right, but so much, so
much drama right, you want tojust get.
I.
This ain't where I should be,you know.
So I prayed for patients.
I actually pray.
I'd walk the parking lotpraying for the people in there
that I wanted to choke, or pagefive, 52, right there.
Or that I couldn't standlistening to.

Speaker 3 (59:03):
I was one of those when he got to the rooms.

Speaker 4 (59:06):
I didn't want to choke you.

Speaker 3 (59:08):
What do you mean?

Speaker 4 (59:08):
was.

Speaker 1 (59:09):
I am, I am I am Thank you.

Speaker 4 (59:11):
No, but so my 30 days went easy.
I was willing, like they say inthe open-minded willing, and a
lot of it started in there justbeing taught me how to listen.
I'm still learning.
Like I said, I hear great, butI don't listen.

(59:32):
That good, ask her.
But in the rooms I've had tolearn that.
Yeah, because the first time Iever tried aa, I think I made
two meetings and said I'm out ofhere, this is all drama bs, and
I never went back like go aheadI can sorry you can have a

(59:53):
drink if you want.
Turn your head.
Drink, no um.
What came to my mind?

Speaker 2 (59:57):
is no.
What came to my mind is he wasoriginally going to come out
after a couple weeks.
Okay, was the original plan.
Oh, yeah, forgot.
And when those couple weekscame up, he chose to stay.

Speaker 1 (01:00:15):
Ah, that was the switch.
That's huge.
That was the switch, yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:00:19):
There it was.
I forgot because I was huge.
That's why I said she's goingto be great, because she makes
me and she knows times, dates.
She was going to Ecuador on amission trip and I was starting
to freak out.
I'm in rehab, she's going toEcuador.
I'm not going to get to see heroff to the airplane, so I'm

(01:00:42):
wigging out.
And then we just talked aboutit and then I chose to stay.

Speaker 1 (01:00:50):
So did you leave?
You went to Ecuador.
While he was in, I did not endup going.

Speaker 2 (01:00:53):
I think it was not in the plan.

Speaker 1 (01:00:56):
I think the plan was for me to leave home.
That would have been a roughfor him to come home to.

Speaker 2 (01:00:59):
Yes, Well, the plan was to go to Ecuador before he
ever went to rehab, oh gotcha.
And I think it was his plan soI wouldn't go.

Speaker 4 (01:01:11):
Damn it, Mike.
She was going to be back gonewhile I was in there, but be
back when I got out.
Gotcha.
But if I would have got out intwo weeks and she left to
Ecuador, I would have been done.
Yeah, that would have beenrough.
It wasn't the last.
I would have not stayed sober,so I chose this day.
Well, I don't know Right, Idoubt it, but I chose this day

(01:01:35):
even before we knew that she gotsick and wasn't able to go,
because she didn't want tojeopardize anybody else or be in
Ecuador sick, sick, no for sure.
So it was a god thing alwaysand, yeah, it was just like.
It was a big turnaround, beingopen-minded and willing and

(01:01:55):
actually doing right what theysaid every single time I was in
there.
Um, and this last, you know,they always tell you two, only
two percent.
I still don't get why they saythis.
Only two percent of you aregoing to make it right.
That's because it's a fact.
Yeah, it's fact.
But when you're down and outand you're like you say, you're
walking with your ass in yourhand or whatever.

(01:02:17):
And to hear only two percent.
Hey, thanks for the hope pal,thanks, you know.
And oh, by the way, 99 ofpeople that lose a child, uh,
their marriages don't last.
Oh, thanks for that one too.
Right, and they told me thatwhen I was on intake up at
maynard's.

Speaker 3 (01:02:33):
Oh, wow, and I'm like thanks, bud, that's great to
see, but when I heard thatbecause they told me, uh, they
said the same thing there was, Iwas I happen to be one of the
oldest.
I was 38 at the time when I gotsober, you know, 14 years ago,
and there's a young lady sittingnext to me.
She was the same age.
We were the oldest, and thisasshole who went to primary
purpose at the time I didn'tknow that I met him like six
months later at primary.

(01:02:55):
He said yeah, most of youaren't.
You know, I'm gonna make it.
I've just had a spite, becausethat's how alcoholics and medics
are just out of spite.
watch this what I'll be that one, and by god's grace it was.

Speaker 4 (01:03:04):
It was last night I might have been at that book
study.

Speaker 3 (01:03:09):
When I said they said two percent and I said I'll let
it be one of the fucking twopercent yeah, which is something
you didn't say the previous sixtimes or five times.

Speaker 4 (01:03:18):
No, I just was, yeah, thinking I got this for a
couple weeks, right, right sokim, the last eight months, all
right like this.
Thank you, rob come on, tell megod you know what her face, how
she doesn't need to tell you.

Speaker 3 (01:03:33):
I know she's gotta tell the audience because they
can't see the light I see it ohmy god, there's one right there,
we'll leave.

Speaker 1 (01:03:41):
Yeah, yeah, her face was just incredible.

Speaker 2 (01:03:47):
He has a joy.
He has a joy.
I don't get that.

Speaker 4 (01:03:51):
Oh my God, you do though, you don't see it, we see
it I see

Speaker 1 (01:03:54):
it, I've only known you for eight months and I can
see it for God's sake he has ajoy that he's never had oh man
before the accident before joe'saccident hey, my wife says the
same thing.
I guarantee you I'm not thesame man that I was even 20
years ago, because of thosesteps that I did, because of and
he's working, him's like, heknows he's loved.

Speaker 2 (01:04:26):
And so he has worth.

Speaker 1 (01:04:29):
Yep.

Speaker 2 (01:04:32):
And he's making positive choices.
We used to joke because he'd bethe glass half empty person.
I'm the glass half fulloverflowing now we joked the
other day it's like, no, our cupis overflowing.

(01:04:53):
It's no longer, you know, halfempty, half full, it's
overflowing.
And promises he's he's you knowhow empty, how full.
It's overflowing Promises.
He's.
I'm a lucky woman.
Oh, it's going to fill in theblanks, you've earned it.

Speaker 4 (01:05:12):
You've earned it.
I'm a blessed woman.
You've earned it.
Now the question is.

Speaker 3 (01:05:15):
Is this I mean we're talking 2007,.
All that to this just eightmonths, eight months.
Is this eight months worth allof that?
To have this now?
I mean because you went througha lot.
Now you're doing this.
I mean because you went througha lot.
I'm sure there's going to bemore than I hope we all make at
home, but is it?

Speaker 2 (01:05:36):
Yes.

Speaker 3 (01:05:37):
Isn't that something?
It is, all that pain, ourmarriage is so much stronger.
It's always been strong, Evenat its weakest moments it had to
have something because youwouldn't be here.

Speaker 2 (01:05:51):
It was strong and our love was strong.
I guess I would say, eventhough you might not see it, but
now we've always been bestfriends, but now we're just.
You know, life is life.
Who knows what it's going tobring, but I know he and I, with

(01:06:21):
God of course, will survive.

Speaker 3 (01:06:24):
Aren't you glad all those many years ago when he
showed up at the door lookingaround the other gal saying I'm
here to see that one.

Speaker 2 (01:06:31):
Aren't you glad you didn't climb on the couch that's
so funny because um, mike and II don't know if he told you
this, but the day we met, ourconversation was about family
yeah well, he said that daybecause one of you had one.

Speaker 3 (01:06:45):
Had a license and no car one had a car no license and
he was after that one and hesaid the day I met her he goes.
I knew that was.

Speaker 2 (01:06:51):
Yeah, we talked about God and we talked about family.

Speaker 1 (01:07:02):
I also said that when he picked you up from the.

Speaker 3 (01:07:03):
Nutcracker to take you out on your break, that when
he called you didn't even knowwho that Mike was Mike.

Speaker 2 (01:07:06):
who Mike?

Speaker 3 (01:07:06):
who he said.
I got that wrong, see.

Speaker 2 (01:07:08):
It was the second day , the day after I met him, that
he called me, and at work, yes,and I wasn't expecting him to
call me you probably had ordersin your head that you were
trying to get out.

Speaker 1 (01:07:23):
Yeah, so the fuck is Mike.

Speaker 2 (01:07:25):
I never get personal calls at work and and he's like
this is Mike and I'm like Mike,who I made a great impression,
didn't I?

Speaker 3 (01:07:34):
I shr shrunk.

Speaker 2 (01:07:35):
Did he tell you what he said after that?

Speaker 3 (01:07:36):
what'd he say?

Speaker 2 (01:07:38):
he said well, he goes like.
After we talked last night Icouldn't get you out of my mind.
I thought about it.

Speaker 3 (01:07:45):
He did say that on the podcast.
Yeah, he did.
Okay, I thought about you allday goes.

Speaker 2 (01:07:51):
I wanted to know if you'd like to get to know me
better.

Speaker 1 (01:07:54):
Yeah, he said how corny is that you did.
That's awesome, that ain'tcorny at all.
I don't think so.
So you know, once again, I'msitting over here just about
bawling, because this, righthere, is a thousand percent.
Why we do the things that we dois to watch these families come
back together, and even thepeople without wives or without

(01:08:16):
husbands, to watch their livesand those promises that we speak
about all the time to watchthose promises to start coming
back into our lives.
I wanted to bring up a couplethings and, kim, you've've been
amazing, you really have, we'renot done.
I'm getting ready to go intoanother thing that we brought
this up and I'm going to talk toMike just for a couple minutes.

(01:08:38):
We can't start loving othersuntil we learn to love ourselves
.
And I've seen, I've seen Mikefrom the very beginning, when he
first started, coming into therooms with a man with a squeaky
voice, sitting in the back,barely able to speak to a man
that loves to share in themeetings, and I've watched him

(01:09:00):
learn to love himself and withthat, he's learning to be able
to give that love to otherpeople and he's become lovable,
as you said.
Right, that was huge when yousaid that he's become lovable,
and I feel like that's when wework these steps and we do that.
The other thing is that as we go, mike and some that you've said
this a couple times and we, weone of the biggest things that I

(01:09:25):
had struggled with was how do Iforgive myself, right?
How do I forgive myself right?
How do I forgive myself?
And my sponsor told me Larry,you have to give yourself a
living amends, you have to giveyourself Every day.
I have to learn to look in themirror and tell myself I love
you.
Right?
We have to learn to loveourselves, and as we do that,

(01:09:49):
the longer we do that We'llstart treating ourselves.

Speaker 3 (01:09:51):
we start yes, we start treating ourselves a great
sponsor, kim, and he's a littleshort prick, but he is a good
one.

Speaker 1 (01:10:00):
And as we get stronger in that, those memories
of that stuff they don't fade.
They're there, but we forgiveourselves of those things.
There's still things that popup to me every once in a while.
Katie won't remind me, butshe'll say some stuff that'll
strike a memory in me.
It's like I remember that youknow and I and I, but as they,

(01:10:22):
you know, as they go, and I'mthree years into this, see, I
didn't say only that's right, Ididn't say it good, I'm proud of
you I'm three years into thisand I can tell you honestly I've
learned to forgive myself of alot of that stuff, because that
was not the man.
I am Right, that wasn't, thatwasn't me Right.
And as you go, mike and I saidthis to you in the podcast as

(01:10:45):
you go along and the more you,the more you get into the steps.
When you get those stepsthrough and you learn how to put
those steps in your day-to-daylife especially 10, 11, and 12,
as we do, those that forgivingourself, it just comes.
It just comes easier and easierand easier.

(01:11:06):
Every stinking time one ofthose memories come up, because
we can't.
I love those memories.
Now I do, I embrace thembecause I know I'm never going
to go back to being that pieceof shit I was.

Speaker 3 (01:11:19):
And we do not regret the past because we use that to
help the next man, when hestarted beating himself up,
which, hey again, and weshouldn't just, I know Christ
forgave us.
We throw everything under theblood and walk, but we should
never forget that because if wedo, we'll repeat it Right and
I'll be damned if I'll repeat bethat guy again.
You know, by God's grace.
But the reason I wanted himwhen he first came in and I knew

(01:11:40):
who he was, uh, and I've beenhounding him you know cause he'd
come in, have them steps coming, mike, how they just just
bugging the shit out of him.
For a reason, because I'veworked, walked Jason through
them and I saw what they did inhis life Cause Jason came in
broken, facing nine years inprison.
You know what I?
So when Matt the gentleman Itold you about him, him and Mary

(01:12:09):
lost their son was strugglingWas this Mike?
About three months ago, and Isaid we was at a Saturday
meeting, I was talking to Mikeor Matt, to breakfast, a couple
of minutes we're going to havelike a little intervention and
Mike was in the meeting and Iasked him God.
God told me you know who needsto go with you.
So I had invited Mike thatmorning hey, would you please go
to breakfast with us?
And he was didn't even knowthat morning he was going to go,
but those two would talk and wewere just I was just eating my

(01:12:32):
uh, corned beef hash listening.
But what he said the next daywhen he came to me, that him and
kim him and his wife had a thefirst meaningful talk about
michael they've had in years,because he had opened up,
helping this man walk throughwhat he'd been through, what he
didn't walk through, but youknow some of the same, because
they lived something that wehaven't.
So it was just amazing.

Speaker 4 (01:12:52):
But you guys got to have a talk for the first time
in years about that because ofwhat he needs to walk through
and he is well, just on thatnote, like yesterday, the
anniversary, she's takingflowers and everything, and
jason boy is like 25 feet away,right, and so she put some

(01:13:14):
flowers there.
She did her flowers, and so Ithought that was a hard day for
me, period, but and and I shouldhave wanted to be out there
with her, but she did after work, because now I'm able to go
more off, you know, I just canhandle a little better and be
with her and let her, but it'sstill hard.

(01:13:35):
She came home, she just wantedto talk and I was like no, I
want to talk.
And she it was getting later,you know, and uh, I'm trying to
eat and go to bed.
You know, I was like we'retrying to go to bed, I was
trying to cut through, probably.
Just, I don't know what it was,but it's still hard.

(01:13:56):
Sometimes when I see the hurtand the pain, I know she's
failing, but she's, she goesthrough it right, she does it
right, and for me it's still.
It's got easier, but it's stillhard.
What?

Speaker 3 (01:14:09):
did you?
What did you show today?
This is the first one you'vegone through sober yeah, this
day the anniversary day.

Speaker 4 (01:14:16):
yeah, since it happened, I've never been not
wasted.
She and she'll be doing herthing at the cemetery and, like
I said, the worst ever was thefirst time.
It fell on mother's day, whichis like the second year or
something, I can't remember butso I just pushed her away even
more because it was.

(01:14:38):
I knew what it would have tofeel like and I didn't want no
part of it.
I can't imagine.
But I abandoned her, left herthe selfish and self-centered of
the topic today and this isbring it into the light, mike
that calls me a narcissist.

Speaker 3 (01:15:01):
But the one thing you said and shared and me and
Bonnie were talking about this,because it's not that fathers,
we don't love our children, youknow, to the end and would do
anything.
But what used to bother Mike hewould shout out if you ever
shared this with you was thatwhen he would look at you, for
nine months, ten months, youcarried the boy, you breastfed.
You know, like, while you watchit, the things a mother must
feel.
If I'm hurting this bad, Ican't imagine, you know.

(01:15:22):
And then we can't.

Speaker 2 (01:15:24):
And you guys are fixers too.
Yeah, we can't fix it.

Speaker 4 (01:15:27):
You can't fix this.
Yeah, I couldn't.
I couldn't fix it, so Icouldn't hold on.

Speaker 3 (01:15:32):
You guys are fixers too at times.
I mean I know my wife is.
When I was going through cancer, there's one story I don't know
if I've ever showed I mighthave.
I'd wake up because I was offfor six months getting and I'd
have to sit up a certain waybecause they were cooking my
neck and I, if I set too low I'dchoke to death and I couldn't
get any sleep because the painwas incredible.

(01:15:53):
So she would, my wife would gothrough and try to set
everything at the certain she'dget out of angle finder I had,
you know, just to, and uh, I'dcome out sometimes, wake up,
cause I can only sleep like twoor three hours at the most.
And she, I her about it becauseshe couldn't even say the word
cancer.
It's been five years now, shestill can't say the words.
But we were eating breakfast atthe place you know writers where

(01:16:14):
we were at, and I'd ask her why, were you know?
Was it just, you know,overwhelming, covid's going on,
your husband's going through,you might bury him?
She said, no, um, I knew thepain you're in and I always
thought that if you weresleeping you weren't in pain.
But then I would hear noises inthe back room and I'd go back
there and you'd be wincing andcrying, sleeping, and you know
you're in pain.

(01:16:35):
She was and I I just broke.
I couldn't, I can't.
There's nothing I can do forhim.
He's in pain, awake.
He's in pain, sleeping issues.
I was just.

Speaker 4 (01:16:41):
I couldn't fix it, you know, and I'd heard that
story and I was sorry that's allright, sorry, see, yeah, I
remember saying that that Icouldn't fix this just like I
would say nothing would everbroke me.
I mean the way I was raised.

Speaker 3 (01:17:04):
You guys heard a little and you and you guys, the
upbringing you both had,because he had shared a little
bit about yours that we didn'thave.
You know that.
How you survived that to bethis is amazing.

Speaker 4 (01:17:15):
Yeah, that we came from going through all that crap
that made you grow up thinkingyou're never going to be like
that, never going to go throughthis stuff, never, ever, ever,
right.
Then it happens, and because Iliterally thought nothing can

(01:17:35):
break me.
I mean, we were both on our own, since little kids, basically
right and um, we parentedourselves, parented our, you
know, she raised her brother andsister and all that um as a
real young person and being somuch alike and then coming
together like that.
most people think that's notgoing to happen, but it did.

Speaker 3 (01:18:01):
But I've heard a lot of fifth steps Jason Allen's and
his story, and we heard Nathanon here who had a childhood
that's.
You know people that go throughthat.
Usually don't they're not sober, but Mike, as far as a man that
go through that usually don'tthey're not sober, but Mike, as
far as a man goes the way he wasraised, what he had overcome,
joseph Michael I've never hearda man.
Even though he didn't handle itthe best way, obviously he

(01:18:23):
still survived enough to finallywhere God could get a hold of
him.
But I've never heard anybodythat's went through.
I.
I've heard anybody that's wentthrough.
I couldn't do it, mike, I meanI couldn't even fathom it.

Speaker 4 (01:18:32):
I couldn't even fathom it.
You know one time a pastorthat's gone to Ecuador.
He was a youth pastor.

Speaker 3 (01:18:38):
Someone's got to go to Ecuador here, because this is
the second time.
Yeah, I'm gone, she's going.

Speaker 4 (01:18:43):
Next one.
But he went on to plant achurch there in Ecuador the
youth pastor there in ecuador,the youth pastor and when he
first got to know me, we weretalking a little bit and he got
to know me and kim a little,just a little.
Just heard some and the firstthing you're thinking I wonder
what people are thinking he justhad this big giant smile and he

(01:19:03):
said he is honored, you know,to hear, for this sharing or
whatever.
And then said when I got downto say something, he goes and
you're still, you're still here,god's got a plan, he goes, he
goes.
It's amazing and I was likewhat's wrong with this guy, you
know, cause I didn't think itwas, but all he was hearing is

(01:19:24):
he couldn't believe I wasstanding there and he was
hearing it and cause most peopleMike don't make it that far,
yeah.
I guess you just don't thinkthat way when you're in it.
No, we're not thinking.
When we're in it, we're notthinking at all when we're in it
.
You don't wish it on anybodyelse, no, hell no.
But I still remember.
What I love now is the bigsmile you seen a second ago that

(01:19:48):
lights up the room.
And I don't want to go back andone of the biggest things I say
that helps me.
I just look at where I was fora moment of where, what it was
like and what I did to thatbeautiful woman, how I broke her

(01:20:11):
heart and the pain in her face.
I wouldn't trade it to go backto that, because the only
regrets I have in this liferight now is that that sounds,
you know, forgiving yourself,like you said.
That's where we're at thehardest part for me is that

(01:20:39):
because I can't believe I did itto somebody.

Speaker 3 (01:20:40):
That's my whole life and but think about it this way,
now for the night if thislittle living amends we're
talking about, which is whatit's going to be you get the
opportunity every day now to putthat smile to light the deal.
So go, I don't miss a momentanymore I don't miss a moment
hell

Speaker 1 (01:20:53):
no, that's all we have is moments I was flying out
to.
Uh, I had to leave last sundayto go down south kate and I got
in a little spat just before Ileft and it was minor, it wasn't
even major, it was minor and Ileft.
I had to stop and get fuel inmy truck and as I was there, I
was like I gotta go back home.
I did, yeah, I had to turnaround, come back home, because

(01:21:16):
I couldn't, I could not leavelike that.
Yeah, I, I did for years leftlike that almost every time I
left the house.
I left pissed off.
Not, she was not fast enough,right, and I just couldn't do it
.
I had to come back home.

Speaker 2 (01:21:32):
We've had moments like that as well.

Speaker 1 (01:21:34):
Recently, recently.
Yeah, see, this is that.
Come on, come on.

Speaker 2 (01:21:41):
So for a little while after he got, I'd still have
red flags.

Speaker 3 (01:21:45):
We'd call them Katie too.
Oh, he would tell us aboutthese stories Go ahead and you
know.

Speaker 4 (01:21:54):
So I'm doing my normal thing, going.
What are you doing?

Speaker 2 (01:21:56):
And Well, not nice.
And he's, he's, he'd getdefensive and but not anymore.
He doesn't get defensiveanymore and I don't get red
flags anymore is the amazingthing.
But we got in a spat and heleft.
But then he came back.

Speaker 1 (01:22:15):
And he's like I'm sorry, yeah, he totally owned it
, right.
We can't.
Once we've been through thesesteps and we feel the relief it
gives us and we know the reliefthat it gives For me.
It's Katie.
When I see that in her, youjust can't, just I can't even

(01:22:35):
explain it.
Mike can feel it, rob can feelit.

Speaker 3 (01:22:37):
But now.
But for me the Bible verse thatsticks out.
You know, do not let the sun godown on your anger, you know,
because that might be the lastsunset.
And is this how you want to endit?
I mean, is your pride?
No, fuck, no, I'm not gonna letin like this, because, because
of the joy, oh the joy so much.
I'd rather feel that and I getthat, and if I go own my shit,
hey babe, you know, even if itwasn't mine, I'll eat it anyway.

Speaker 4 (01:22:59):
If it was all her, because I won't I'm always
eating the hers, well, good,well, that's going down a whole
other subject mike, yeah, jeez,let's bring it back to recovery.

Speaker 3 (01:23:09):
Wait, hold on.
We are explicit, but not thatexplicit it's recovery
unfiltered.

Speaker 4 (01:23:11):
So let's bring it back to recovery.
Wait, hold on.
We are explicit, but not thatexplicit.
It's recovery unfiltered, solet's have it it is great,
though, because I did get pissed, because I was what I've
learned in the programs periodand and I know it already, but
it helps reaffirm it, hearing itover and over, cause I don't

(01:23:35):
listen that good.
I can hear a lot better and itcomes back, sometimes
subconsciously, things I'velearned about myself or heard
and the defensiveness was beingcause.
She was right.
I got defensive because I gotcaught or whatever that's.

(01:23:55):
Every time I was pissed off itwas just because I didn't want
to fess up or own up tosomething I did wrong, even just
the recent one.
It's been a while a red flagthing and I got pissed just that
she had a red flag.
Right, what are you doing?
I'm not doing and I'm right,yelling well and I'm like.
Then I back off and wait aminute.

(01:24:16):
She has every right to haveevery red flag in the world for
a long time if she wants.

Speaker 1 (01:24:21):
So just and there's the when I first got home from
maynard very first day.
Katie and I came home and I wasgoing to primary purpose and
I'll never forget it.
She, she has me.
She's tracking me on her phone,which is fine.
Am I still on 1960?

Speaker 2 (01:24:36):
Well, I left here.

Speaker 1 (01:24:37):
I left here For some reason.
When I got out of rehab, I wasaddicted to root beer.
I have no idea which brand A&W,there's only one.
Oh, my egg is better dude, soanyways, I was going into
primary and I stopped at alittle liquor store that never
even crossed my mind, right.
I stopped there to get an A&Wroot beer and she literally

(01:24:58):
called me what are you doing?
I'm like what?
And it dawned on me that she'sseen me at the liquor store.
I'm like oh shit, babe.

Speaker 2 (01:25:05):
I'm sorry, literally I stopped to get it, I stopped
to get it, and it was the sameday, face, I stopped to get.

Speaker 1 (01:25:11):
I stopped to get, and it was the same day, facetimer
A&W, you know.
And to this day I can't walkout in the garage without
feeling I can't, because whenthe door closes, I was always
going out there to get get beer,especially when she's in bed,
right, if she's sleeping earlyin the morning.
If she's in bed sleeping earlyin the morning, I go out in the
garage.
I I know that that was her, hertrigger.

Speaker 3 (01:25:34):
She knew that I was going out there to get beer,
even though we drank enough thatnight.
We should have slept throughthe night, but that didn't hold
me over, don't you know?

Speaker 1 (01:25:39):
no, so, yeah, I mean she, I know in three years into
it she still gets.
She still gets triggered onsome stuff.
I don't know about trigger, butthere's still things that make
remind her, yeah, of the painthat that she was going through
and I try my best to be cautiousof those things that I know
that's going to cause her tofeel that way.

(01:26:01):
I mean I'll still catch stuff,I'll still catch my stuff doing
and go wait a minute, I can'tthat's.
It's not that I'm on a way orto drink.
It's like I don't want katieseeing that because of that old
behavior, that's what I was likeit might elicit this feeling
right, it might, it might causeher whatever.

Speaker 3 (01:26:18):
Think about.
No, don't think about nothing.

Speaker 1 (01:26:20):
I worry about that stuff now, cause I don't want
her feeling that anymore.
And I don't know and I haven'treally spoke to her about it, I
don't know if she's felt thatway in a long time, I don't know
but I still know that I don'twant her.
That's why she doesn't want tocome on the podcast.
I mean, we're, I talk to herall the time because she knows
she's going to have to to talkabout those things.

(01:26:41):
Those things are those feelingsand just like it's helped.
I believe this has kind ofhelped you a little bit.
We have to talk about thosethings because, you know, blake
was over here the other day andhe was having some issues.
I'm like, well, dude, you gotto talk to her.
He's like I'm like, dude, youhave to talk, communicate.
It's how these things come upit's a conversation.

Speaker 3 (01:27:03):
It's not confrontation, it's just a
conversation.
Go have it.

Speaker 1 (01:27:06):
That's what I tell them right and it's I'm going to
tell you mike, just continuallycommunicate as much as you can,
kim I'm going into the garageI'm going into the garage
freaking ninja, I'd be like,holy crap, where'd you come from

(01:27:29):
?

Speaker 4 (01:27:29):
it's like she floated in there I had a.

Speaker 1 (01:27:33):
Uh, there's a cabinet up above, though I always I,
because nobody can reach itexcept for my long ass arms and
as soon as I open up my garagedoor I can reach up into that
crap, that cabinets where I'dalways kept my whiskey up in
there so I can grab a quickdrink of it as I was walking out
.
I don't know, about a year agoI opened that up, but I haven't
even been in there.
I opened it up.
There's still a half pint ofcrown royal in there, right, and

(01:27:55):
I saw it there and I'm like,katie, there's still an empty
bottle up here.
I don't know what to do with it.
I'm not touching it, it's stillup there.
We walked down there and it'sstill sitting up there to this
day.
It's still sitting in there,katie, we still.
The other day I went, went toget something out of there and I
opened up and there's a.
I still see it sitting thereand I'm like I just shut the
door and it's.
I guess it's nostalgia reasons,it's still there.

(01:28:18):
I.
It's empty, I guarantee you.
Look on a data but it's still2022 or something, I don't know.

Speaker 3 (01:28:25):
But you know those things.
But that's the benefits of theprogram, that's, that's the
power of God to work in thesesteps, owning your own shit,
having that spiritual awakening,which, the thing that's talking
to us all when we is the spiritthat's inside us now that God
has put there.

Speaker 1 (01:28:38):
And it's because we did the work and we have.
I have more alcohol in my housenow than when I was drinking.
Katie always says yeah becauseyou're not drinking.
Right.

Speaker 4 (01:28:52):
But yeah, yeah, that wouldn't happen.
I don't drink wine or anything,but we had wine bottles for
people bringing for Christmas.
You don't even drink wine, sothey're up there, but they were
all empty for some reason andthey were filled back up with
water.
Like my little moonshine, thatI did.
And there was vodka, there wasstuff, I don't even tequila.

(01:29:13):
Hey, we didn't give a shit no,I just, I did pour stuff back in
and put it back up there,anything to silence those voices
, anything that you did.

Speaker 3 (01:29:22):
You know, that's amazing.

Speaker 4 (01:29:23):
I didn't think about how, how that should have told
me right there oh, we don't.
We insane Because I don't evendrink that crap, but when there
was nothing there, I'm openingthese wine bottles that have
been up there souvenirs.

Speaker 3 (01:29:37):
Drinking their own wine.
Limited the number of drinks.
Never drinking alone.

Speaker 1 (01:29:40):
It's whatever it took to get us back to that feeling.

Speaker 2 (01:29:43):
It's just for me or not feeling, whatever.

Speaker 1 (01:29:45):
I would open up a bottle of my wife's wine in the
middle of the night, midnightone o'clock you have to get up
at six in the morning.

Speaker 3 (01:29:50):
Go replace that.

Speaker 1 (01:29:51):
Yeah, I don't know if I've ever told that story.
I have.
I have told it on here.
Yeah, it's.
Yeah it's insanity.
I'd open up a bottle of herwine and I'd drink it before.
I'd drink it like two or threedrinks, it'd be gone those dark
bottles you can't tell they'reempty.
No, you put it back well, andthese bottles, I thought were
all hidden in the back andnobody would ever notice them
because they'd been thereforever.

Speaker 4 (01:30:10):
But sure enough they would get noticed, right, I
hated when there was a cork, Icouldn't be the chief, I'd be
like, oh damn.

Speaker 1 (01:30:18):
Or them old corks would break off when you're
trying to be quiet.

Speaker 3 (01:30:21):
Just hammer it down in there and just go.

Speaker 4 (01:30:23):
I don't have enough time to get the cork out.

Speaker 3 (01:30:26):
You ever take a punch and a hammer, turn it sideways,
tap that cork inside the bumper.

Speaker 4 (01:30:31):
Oh, I went inside like that yeah, but wasn't with
a hammer.
I don't know how I did it, but Igot it to go.
Insanity.
But yeah, you know, I'm justglad you guys do what you do.
And even before, when I met youguys in the meetings in the
men's group and I said it Ithink last night, I said this is

(01:30:51):
what the meeting was all abouta couple hugs I got from people
that remembered me saying a dayor so before that yesterday was
the anniversary, and I got a hugfrom blake because we don't and
it was just me and him standingoutside before the meeting.
And I go what was that about?
And he looked at me like givesme her look, like what are you

(01:31:12):
stupid?
And I go, you needed it.
I looked and I go oh, I didn'tthink anybody remembered, you
know.
But then I told I said lastnight this is what it's about
People that care, actuallylisten to you, and them getting
to open up to you.
And one of my favorite things Idon't even know why I'm going

(01:31:34):
to say this is old-timers reallywant to call and been around
and say they love newcomersbecause they get to see how
screwed up they look and thatthey know it doesn't work.
To me it's the opposite.
I see newcomers.
I love it when I I seenewcomers.
I love it when I keep seeingthem.
I love it when they don't showup.

(01:31:56):
For a couple days I foundmyself worrying about them,
asking about them and what itreminds me.
It's not about how screwed up Iwas and how it still is,
because I know how it is.
I know how it was.
It reminds me there's stillpeople that need help, like I do
.
That's all.
A newcomer is to me is somebodythat needs it.

(01:32:19):
Doesn't remind me because Idon't need.
I need them for myself to playthat picture back.
That's what I do.
I look at myself puking, I lookat her face, how it was, and I
don't want to go back and seethose things again.
I would never buy tickets tosee that movie over and over.

(01:32:39):
It's done.
Not one should give it burnt.
But I love seeing new peoplecome in.
They keep coming back and itjust does my heart good.
I love it, like I said, goingback and it just does my heart
good.

Speaker 1 (01:32:52):
I love it, like I said, going back and watching
your light come on, especiallywhen I found out who you were
and knew what you had gonethrough going oh, this is going
to be a fun one and watching youjust grow and grow and grow.
And, like I said, that oneMonday night when I heard you
say those things and I'm likehe's got it and I saw the light

(01:33:15):
and the skin color and justeverything.
And then and then to watch kimsmile a minute ago, it's just
just gives me chills and I justfucking love it that's why my
goal?

Speaker 2 (01:33:26):
in life now is.

Speaker 4 (01:33:28):
She goes like she said today we're drunk.
She goes like she used to tellyou when we were drunk she goes,
happy wife.
She said something else too, Iforget.

Speaker 3 (01:33:36):
It's just, it's awesome.

Speaker 4 (01:33:37):
I love to make her laugh and see that smile more
than a grief and just terrible.
And you know, it's like thingshave gotten so much better in
eight and a half months and theycan only get better and more
will be revealed.
Yes, sir, and it's, it'sawesome.
Now we have a lot of fun and,like we used to, right, and

(01:34:00):
probably even more so you know,I?

Speaker 1 (01:34:03):
I want to say one thing, mike the pain's not over,
no, no, okay, I want to makesure, right, I mean, and I don't
know.
I say that for this reasonbecause I believe that if
everybody's expecting something,they're going to know how to
handle it, right, and when I seethese newcomers come in and
they're on this cloud andthey're just all over the place,

(01:34:26):
it's like come on, let me tellyou a secret.
Here's what's going to happenin about another three weeks,
four weeks.
Right, that little balloonyou're on it's going to get
popped.
And how you prepare yourselfright now, you're going to be
prepared for when that balloonpops.
Right, the pain is still goingto.
Literally, I deal with shit.
Still, that it's just.

(01:34:47):
I want to pull my hair out andI want to jump off a cliff.
But I know there's one thingthat's very important that that,
that bottle, that whiskey, thatalcohol, is not going to fix it
.
It is no way in hell going tofix anything that I'm going to
go through.
Yes, and.
I know, god, in this program,that I that I live is going to

(01:35:09):
get me through anything, nomatter what the hell it is.
That I do know, and that's theway I live my life.

Speaker 3 (01:35:17):
But also we're part of the no Matter what Club,
absolutely no matter what club.
I don't care if your ass isfalling off, we don't drink.
No matter what, no matter what.

Speaker 4 (01:35:24):
What I thought about, that is, yesterday was probably
the toughest day and I wasn'tlike Jones and I would say I
thought more about where I wasand how I was this day, right,
all the other anniversaries,no-transcript roller coaster I

(01:35:47):
guess that whole yesterday waslike.

Speaker 1 (01:35:49):
Better than the merry-go-round you were on.
Yeah, amen.

Speaker 4 (01:35:51):
But I just kept thinking about I'm going to get
through this.
I'm going to get through this.
It's going to be okay.
Right, I prayed.
Sometimes that's hard for mebecause my mind doesn't let me
focus that long on God, and whenI can it's awesome, but it was

(01:36:13):
a tough day.
Like you said, the pain itain't going to go away.
But how I deal with it, acceptit, life on life terms, all that
stuff.
I hate saying all those phrasesand things but now they're
pounded in.
But it's true.

Speaker 3 (01:36:29):
But now they make sense to't they yeah, oh yeah
life's for sure.

Speaker 4 (01:36:32):
When I said yesterday in a meeting I, I think I said,
um, my whole goal in life is tobe in a coma, right, 24, 7 was
to not think about that like asif it didn't happen, even to the
point where I made it almostlike he never existed.
My son, that's how bad.
I tried not to think about itand then I'd feel so shitty

(01:36:56):
about that that you've actuallypushed so hard to make it so
much like it never happened, asif, like he never existed, right
, and so I wasn't thinking Iwouldn't feel that pain.
But he did so the whole, yeah,the whole time, and touched
still touching lives, stilltouching lives.

(01:37:18):
That pain never went away, nomatter how screwed up I was on
Vicodins, any other drug,alcohol, in a coma.
I don't even know how Ifunctioned Really.
A half a frozen burrito a day.

Speaker 3 (01:37:34):
It's about what I did .

Speaker 4 (01:37:34):
The human body is amazing and my whole goal was I
didn't care about nothing butnot thinking about that.
But it was.
I was never not thinking aboutit, yeah, the whole time.
Because I wasn't thinking aboutit, I wouldn't have to keep
doing it, right?

Speaker 1 (01:37:51):
I mean, it's so crazy that's the miracle round that
we're on right.
We drink.
We drink to kill the pain, butthe pain is still there.
So we continue to drink.
And it's just that shittycommittee between our two ears.
You know, once we realize thatthat little fucking committee
that's between those two earsare causing the problem, and we

(01:38:12):
get outside of that and starthelping other people, that all
that stuff goes away.
And, as you're what you two aredoing today, the amount you're,
the amount of people you'rehelping today by telling the
story and coming on here, isincredible.

Speaker 3 (01:38:28):
The guy in Lafayette, louisiana.
How God.
Look how God uses his storylast time to catch a guy in
Louisiana to reach out to Larry.
We don't care to touchthousands, That'd be awesome,
but if we can help one One, and.

Speaker 1 (01:38:42):
God gets to choose the one.
Fayetteville, north Carolina,is where he's from.
Like I said and I want to makesure and say that, because
mike's doing he's doing a greatjob, um, and your story touched
him and and now he's gettinghelp and you know, this is why
we do this right and Iappreciate you, kim, coming on

(01:39:03):
here and being so open.
I appreciate it.
I think we went some placesthat you, you kind weren't
expecting, but, like I said, yougot comfortable it is
unfiltered.

Speaker 3 (01:39:13):
It is unfiltered.

Speaker 1 (01:39:15):
And, once again, I do not want to leave here without
asking both you guys is thereanything else that you want to
talk about, anything else youwant to bring up?
I've had that itch for a longtime.

(01:39:39):
No, not that I can think of.
I just want to make sure thatyou know that you, you guys,
what's going to happen is samething I have with jason and
jenny, because they, when theyleft here, and same with grace,
uh and brad grace and brad jasonand kim jason and matt and mary
when they left here.
The conversation that they hadon the way home on the way home,
uh, and Brad Grace and BradJason and Kim Jason and Mary,
matt and Mary when they lefthere the conversation that they
had on the way home on the wayhome.
They kind of didn't, they kindof filled Rob and I in that the
it was some of the bestconversations that they've ever

(01:40:01):
had, because it I think italmost teaches you how to this,
this, this forum, this littlemedium that we have here,
creates a conversation piecethat carries on outside.

Speaker 3 (01:40:12):
One thing that the Catholics get right, the only
thing I shouldn't say nevermindI don't care.
Yeah, confession, you know,getting it out in the open.
Now we have to deal with itbecause here it is, now, let's,
let's have that.
That's what God wants.
Get it out here, bring wants.
Get it out here, bring it in.
That's what he said.
Because, because, when he, whenhe invitates you in the
meetings, and he does, you know,bring it into the light mike,

(01:40:32):
she would say, you know, he'sadamant about it but she's but,
there's a lot of truth to that,because let's have it.
I mean it's killing us, but buthere we can deal with the truth
here we can have right the lies.

Speaker 1 (01:40:45):
Katie has said the same thing.
Just tell me and let's dealwith it.
I think sometimes she wouldlike to go.
You know what?
That's a little much.
Just give me a minute toprocess that there is a lot to
that.

Speaker 3 (01:40:57):
There's a lot of discernment as we go in the way
we deliver and the timing ofwhen we need to deliver.
I mean, that's all a God thingas we learn and grow, but still
get it out.
It ain't paying rent.
Kick that shit out.

Speaker 1 (01:41:09):
Yesterday she came out with a pair of shorts on.
She goes these shorts look okay.
And I go God damn girl, youneed some sun on them legs.
She was like she was like.
That's a little bit more truththan I thought I was going to
get Shit.

Speaker 4 (01:41:25):
These make my butt look big babe.

Speaker 1 (01:41:26):
Well, we're honest Discernment, discernment, boys.
No, you know what?

Speaker 4 (01:41:31):
The only thing I thought of what we started to
talk about, which is probably myhardest part, is what she said
too, and you were touching on it, forgiving yourself, oh yeah,
and for anybody else listening,because I hear people say that,
besides me in the room, a lot ofpeople.
They are my biggest for me.
I said, my, I hear people saythat besides me in the room, a

(01:41:51):
lot of people do For me.
I said, when they talk aboutthose guys that are always
pushing the steps, you've got todo the steps, like that fucking
Rob, this guy Rob.
But when you hear him talk allthe stuff about the steps and
resentments and get all thatcrap out I think it's about the
steps and resentments, and makethat, get all that crap out.

(01:42:11):
I think it's in the stepssomewhere.
Um, my biggest resentmentbefore is me, right, right, and
I've heard people say I, I'mashamed or whatever.
The shame and guilt.
Resentment is all I mean.
Most of my step work is righthere, right, okay.

Speaker 1 (01:42:33):
It was for me too.
It's a lifelong process.

Speaker 4 (01:42:35):
It's shady, yeah.
And so when I say how Iremember the pain in her face on
so many times and things wespoke of before, that I wasn't
even around when it happened,how I could never let that stuff
go, because how could I do that?

(01:42:57):
I mean she went through thejust real quick, the finding out
about Michael.

Speaker 3 (01:43:06):
You were in San Diego .

Speaker 4 (01:43:07):
Yeah, by herself, was called by a cop on her phone to
go home.
They needed to talk at home.
She has no clue what the hell.
And when I sit there and thinkof that, I'm down there.
She has some cops say go home,sit down.
You know those things.

(01:43:28):
It's hard, sit down, you knowthose things.
That's hard.
I can't see how, forgivingmyself and resenting myself for
all the all this shit I put herthrough, because I basically was
a coward, ran from it, ran fromher, ran from all the feelings
I did not deal with and there'sno book on it, all the feelings

(01:43:51):
I did not deal with and there'sno book on it, period.
But I was told I did everythingwrong that you could imagine to
do wrong and still that's myhardest thing that I'm going to
have to.

Speaker 3 (01:44:04):
And how are you finding that?
How's that forgiveness coming?
Because you've told me, if mylord you know can forgive me,
that's all it's gonna go to thecross for me.

Speaker 4 (01:44:14):
Rob that I was to take the nails for me.
Rob that he did all that toforgive me.
And it takes me back to um,when I would say my getting
saved was reading the bible allby myself at a dining table by
myself, and read in Isaiah aboutthe beating that Jesus took.

Speaker 3 (01:44:36):
Now you know that was written 800 years before
crucifixion was even inventedEasily, 800 years before he
existed.

Speaker 4 (01:44:44):
Foretold it to a T, beaten beyond human recognition,
beyond the form of any man.
You could not recognize him.
It's just everything they did tohim ripped his beard out, that
spin on him, punched him andeverything's showing and if I

(01:45:06):
can't let go of it, um, then I'mslapping him in the face
because that's what he did forall that shit.
I did Not for me to keep doingit over and over, because then I
slap him in the face.
And that's a shameful thing too, because I did do that, you
know, I just kept.
I kept doing it, saying I'msorry and doing it again, but

(01:45:30):
he's forgiven me forever, fromnow until I'm done.
So I have to accept it.

Speaker 1 (01:45:39):
So he welcomes you into his kingdom.

Speaker 4 (01:45:41):
Yeah, and if I can't accept that, which I can, then
that's the dilemma Like how canI not forgive myself?
Because I guess it's because Ican't see how he can do it and
how she can do it.

Speaker 3 (01:45:57):
So guess what Tomorrow?
Son of a bitch, you got to putanother smile on her face.
You got to figure out a way toput another smile on her face.
And then the next day and thenthe next day, oh my God, that's
what you have to do.
And there's your penance, myman, I.

Speaker 1 (01:46:10):
And then the next day , oh my God that's what you have
to do, and there's your penance.
My man, I'm going to go back towhat I said.
As time goes, that what you'refeeling, it's going to subside,
and I think that Rob wentthrough it and probably doesn't
remember it.
Oh, I did Well, I mean, mypoint is he's 14 years coming
off, 14 years.
I still feel it that whatyou're feeling not is, but it's

(01:46:34):
subsided, because I'm a littlebit further away, the further
you get into your sobriety, thatsoftens, that softens.

Speaker 3 (01:46:43):
You start yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:46:45):
The more you forgive yourself every day for those
things.
We don't forget them.
We never forget them.
But we forgive ourselves.
When I can look at myself inthe mirror and say I love you.
When I was able to do that, man, what a world of a change it
was, because then I was able todo that outwardly more and more

(01:47:06):
and more.
Now I just want to give.
I want to give everything thatI have to somebody else I don't
want oh dude, that's thegreatest part.

Speaker 3 (01:47:13):
That is the greatest part.
You watch that light turn onand God allowed us to be a part
of that.

Speaker 1 (01:47:17):
But I couldn't do that until I was able to forgive
myself by looking, and thathappened probably about two
years in Mike.

Speaker 4 (01:47:34):
It did, when I was finally able to look at myself
in the mirror and go I love you.
Oh, and he said you know whatyou're?
I'm not as good looking as mysponsor, but really I love you,
it's all right.

Speaker 1 (01:47:37):
I've heard that thing about looking in the mirror not
.

Speaker 4 (01:47:38):
Still, it's hard.
Yeah, I can't do it.
I mean they had rehab, you'dhave to.
They'd make everybody go thatmirror before you walk out the
door and make a positiveaffirmation.
I'd go whatever, walk out thedoor, what up you know, and I go
.
That's just always hit me wronglike I don't, I just picture oh
it'll hit you self-love is liketo me wrapping your arms around
yourself, telling yourself youwant to die in your own arms

(01:48:00):
that's going a little far.
It's kind of mushy on me towhere I don't know.
I have to be okay in my ownskin.
Yep, there you go, it'll come.

Speaker 1 (01:48:13):
I promise you the more.
Let me ask you this where areyou at in your steps?
Four or five, six, okay, whatthe hell?
How did four go for you five?
I know?

Speaker 3 (01:48:29):
but I mean four or five.
Did you feel that?

Speaker 1 (01:48:30):
What the hell, how did four go for you?
Five Were you good.

Speaker 3 (01:48:32):
No, no, no I know, but I mean four or five.

Speaker 1 (01:48:33):
I mean, did you feel?

Speaker 4 (01:48:34):
that?
Did you feel a lot of weightcome out?
I'm glad you asked that becauseI did and I thought it was BS.

Speaker 1 (01:48:40):
No, Well, I wasn't.

Speaker 3 (01:48:41):
He's such a hard-headed little fucker dude.

Speaker 4 (01:48:44):
I wasn't expecting it or even thinking about it, but
my asshole sponsor has, I don'tknow.
He's figured me out enough towhere he knows exactly how to
lead into whatever's happening.
It's a God thing, yeah.
And then you know, sitting inhis office, which is a dually

(01:49:05):
Ford pickup, and he tells me alittle bit of his fourth step to
try, and you know, get me okay.
And then so I read what I gotand I said okay, bye, and went
to get out of his truck andleave and he goes no, no, no, no
.
But I actually had to stop afew times actually just in our

(01:49:30):
talking, praying, before ithappened.
All that I had, I was likelosing it, I was crying and then
when I was talking about things, it would hit me and I'd have
to stop reading and just squirta little bit, know, and put my
head back and just get composedagain and finish reading it and

(01:49:55):
then talking and praying again,and sometime during all that my
mind went to I felt somethinglifted off.
Yeah, oh yeah.
It's an amazing feeling, likesomething off my back, off my
soul, I guess that's so, that'sso cleansing man, I felt, I

(01:50:16):
actually felt a relief, likethey say, and I mentioned that
and tom guess I can say tom yeahsaid, said did you feel a
spiritual awakening?
Because he explained to me too,which I did.
But he explained to me.

(01:50:37):
Since we're Christians, wedon't think we need that, we
don't understand that.
In the book about the spiritualawakening he goes, but there's
another one.
Yes, we do need it awakening, hegoes, but there's another one.
Yes, we do, we have our, youknow, our christian spiritual
awakening, but god has anotherone for us when we let go of all

(01:50:57):
this stuff.
And he explained that to me waybefore that, but I was thinking
bs, no, that's right.

Speaker 3 (01:51:06):
But I'm telling you, I try to get, and I say this all
the time maybe these stepswouldn't hurt my grandmother
wouldn't hurt anybody and I'vetaken people not alcoholics
through them and there's peoplein the because the best human
beings I've ever met not and Igo to church and I have a church
family and I love them but thegreatest human beings I've ever
met, most sacrificial, the mostselfless, I've met in the rooms

(01:51:27):
of alcoholics because, you know,usually people go to the people
they say you know, thereligious people are afraid to
go to hell, people of faith,people in the rooms.
We've already been there andthat awakened me because I
didn't change my theology when Icame to AA.
I had the same beliefs inChrist that I do now.
However, I had to change myapproach to him and once I did

(01:51:48):
that, this, this is how I livemy life by this little 164-page
book.
I know the other book just well, just as well, but I live by
this 164-page book because it'sall God and it's all action and
just amazing people, amazingpeople.

Speaker 4 (01:52:04):
Amazing to me is church needs AA and AA needs
church.
I don't disagree with thatstatement one ounce, because the
only difference is, you hear,to me, is they always talk about
this religious blah, blah, blahor how they were.
You've even said I had it beatout of me when I was a kid or
whatever.

Speaker 3 (01:52:21):
You have to get the Jesus beat out of you.

Speaker 4 (01:52:23):
But that's the wrong Jesus, that's the wrong church
and it's run by people.

Speaker 3 (01:52:29):
Right.

Speaker 4 (01:52:33):
And they're messed up humans.
And I go there to be taught andI go to aa to learn and be
taught too.
I sit in the chair to listenand learn.
I go to church to listen or not, but it's the people to me in
church where it's open is.
Most people are in aa becausethey want to be real and get
this stuff off them and startliving life again on life's

(01:52:53):
terms.
Another one of the sayings um,but true, uh it.
Can you imagine if the twocollided?
How it would be if you werejust sitting there like trying
to be check a box that I'm inchurch, right?

Speaker 3 (01:53:08):
and this is what I do on a Sunday, or what I had
found when I went to a box andI'm in church, right, and this
is what I do on a sunday, orwhat I had found when I went to
a big and anybody correct me ifI'm wrong.
I'm not wrong I'm rarely wronganyway, there's that humbleness
that we love about him when youwalk into a church building,
which is what it is.
The church is the people, andI've seen this at the big box
churches and as I came to a andand how you doing this morning,

(01:53:28):
fine, everybody, everybody's.
Fine, everybody's got theirchurch face on and this is the
place we should go when we'rebroken to receive help.
But this is what I'd heard inthe rooms of AA Everybody, uh,
what they had gotten, theygotten talked about behind their
back.
Hey, we need to pray for Kimand Mike, cause Mike's back
drinking.
You know that kind of thingthey're.
They either had their churchfaces on or it was gossip
session.
When you come to AA,everybody's broken and we know

(01:53:49):
it and we're open about it andwe're free to receive and give
help.
That's what the church shouldhave been, which is why I think
God started this little avenue.
I really believe that, becausethis is.

Speaker 4 (01:54:00):
you know, this is what it should have been.
Maybe we're the ones supposedto bring it back to the church,
maybe we are Mike and I hey.

Speaker 3 (01:54:06):
I've done it.

Speaker 4 (01:54:06):
I mean I have too, I brought I've Steve.

Speaker 2 (01:54:09):
Newbaum is my pastor.
I love Steve yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:54:12):
Steve was one of Michael's youth pastors and he
had asked me would you shareyour story, robert?

Speaker 3 (01:54:16):
I said you know I'm gonna make a lot of these
Christians here uncomfortablebut I'll do you is not in the
life group.
They're like well, that's,that's what it was Sunday.
You come to feel, but that'swhere the growth happens.

Speaker 4 (01:54:36):
Be a part of be a part and get to know you don't
get to know nobody sitting there, but in the other groups you do
.
But I was in rehab when ourswas still going.
It lasts for so many weeks andso she told him I go, you can
tell him if you want, that's whyI'm not there.
And she said no, they asked andI just said I'll let Mike
explain that to you when he getsout.

Speaker 2 (01:54:56):
Right.

Speaker 4 (01:54:56):
And so my first day back I said I just got out of
rehab and they're like fulldisclosure.

Speaker 3 (01:55:06):
We can do that, and can you imagine the freedom they
would have?
Right, I mean, there's not awell, larry, cut it off, because
one of the Rob-isms is you know, none of us certainly not you
either, but none of us haveeaten a shit sandwich.
We didn't have a hand in makingand we sit there and live with
those things.
Not my wife, not your wife, noranybody listening to this
podcast has eaten a shitsandwich.
Right, amen, and how right, andhow much more freedom they

(01:55:32):
would have in their lives thatthey would constructively get
rid of that shit.
It's not paying rent, it's notdoing any good.

Speaker 4 (01:55:35):
Get it out you know they asked us how was our easter
at our group?
And I go, mine was great.
It was the first sober easterI've had in like a little cool
years and kind of everybody justyou know meanwhile, there's a
soccer mom who's taking thehappy pill and just hiding it.
You know right dead seriousright, I had a blast playing

(01:55:55):
cornhole, no drinking.
We're just at the house, likewe always are, and I was had a
great time and he was present.
Yeah, that's the word I'mlooking for.

Speaker 1 (01:56:06):
Yeah, it's another one of those terms well, it's
you know and I say this that Iwas I had been drinking when
both my grandchildren were bornmy first two, those two and that
when my third was born, Iwasn't and I was able to be
present.
When she was born, I was ableto be present to walk my
daughter down the aisle and wegot to be there.

Speaker 3 (01:56:24):
A lot of the men got to be, there to watch and we got
to be there to get to enjoythat with him.

Speaker 1 (01:56:29):
You know crying with him, I don't know if I'd have
had that opportunity, if I'dstill been drinking, so to be
able to be present, to be there.
You know it's incredible andyou guys are.
You know, and I'll say this too, and here's what I believe, and

(01:56:49):
I feel this that you two, yourstory together, can touch lives
it's going to and I know youwill and I know he will.
I know that you two, when youwork together, whether it's in
the church, whether it's inwhatever group you're going to
be in Jason's story, your story,matt and Mary's story, tell the
stories, man.

(01:57:09):
Tell them.

Speaker 3 (01:57:12):
The highs and the lows.
Tell the, tell the mistakesthat you made and and how god
has somebody is going to hear Idon't who.

Speaker 1 (01:57:17):
Somebody overhears the story.
You know, sober, out loud iswhat I say and you know and you,
there's only one part of thisstory and that is mike's.
That's that we've talked abouthere.
We've not talked about thestory of losing a child that has
not even begun to live yet,right, just that story and how,

(01:57:40):
kim, you recovered from that.
While you're recovering,getting your husband to recover
and bring that whole storytogether can save lives If it
saves one soul, soul outside ofthis podcast.
However you guys choose to dothat, whether you start a small
group for you know people that'slost children, or whatever you
do, I encourage you to be outloud with your guys's recovery

(01:58:01):
and whatever you do, you knowsomebody else was in here and I
encouraged him.
Oh, I know who it was Heather.
Yeah, john's, john's wife, nowwife.
I encouraged her please get outand do something, because she
just has a tremendous story.
If we keep this stuff toourselves, we save nobody.

Speaker 3 (01:58:18):
God put us through this, for a reason yeah, right,
hold on, words matter.
God didn't put us through this,no, no, no.
God walked through this with us.

Speaker 1 (01:58:25):
Right, we're here with us so that we can.
We we're here, right right.
God brought us through thisright beauty out of that.
Oh my gosh, what we can do tosave somebody else.

Speaker 3 (01:58:35):
But that's why I, that's why we must do this say,
lord, this is, this is me, thisis what I've done.
What can you do with it rightnow?
And as we go through it, yes,we feel the pain, but as we help
another person with it, oh, ifthat pain heals well, and it
doesn't.

Speaker 1 (01:58:47):
It's, it's not in vain right, and that's what we
went through is not in vain andthat's why the?

Speaker 3 (01:58:51):
loss, and that's how we honor what was lost, right
and that's why we do thispodcast too is.

Speaker 1 (01:58:56):
I mean, just it heals me.
The more I talk about it, themore you know, and to bring
people like you in here to getthis story out and you know the
social media and getting themout and just you know who knows
where your story will go.
I keep you, I will make sureyou guys are completely aware of
everybody.

Speaker 3 (01:59:12):
Recovery Unfiltered podcast at gmailcom If you want
to get a hold of us.

Speaker 1 (01:59:16):
This is by far the longest podcast we've ever
recorded, I can promise you.
Yeah, I think Jason's wentabout an hour and 45.
We're almost on a two hours,but I wouldn't trade a minute of
it for nothing.
Is this going to be one or two?
No, this is going to be one.
I will not break this one up.
This will be one solid podcast.
I felt like we didn't evenstart yet.
Well, what are you missing,mike?
I don't know.
I'm not done.
We can record.

(01:59:38):
No, I just.

Speaker 4 (01:59:40):
I mean, it happens like, like you say, you know
there's change in me.
I don't know there's change, Iguess I do.
Well, I see it in her face, youdo.

Speaker 1 (01:59:50):
That's all I know.

Speaker 4 (01:59:51):
But it seems like we just sat down.

Speaker 1 (01:59:54):
Well, and here's the other.
It does.
And we say this because thesemics.
You get nervous when, Kim, whenyou first sat down, but you
forgot about that stupidmicrophone after a couple
minutes.
You do and you know that's whatwe do.
And, mike, I know let merephrase that because words do
matter you, you are gettingbetter only because you went
back to see to say something tokim after your argument.

(02:00:16):
You knew you had to go back.

Speaker 3 (02:00:17):
That's where you should see the change in you the
second week when I pissed youoff and you walked outside that
you, you decided to come backand give it one more shot.

Speaker 1 (02:00:25):
You need to recognize , you need to recognize your
changes, and those are thethings that's going to heal you
internally is when you startrecognizing your changes.
See yourself in those changes.
That makes sense becausethere's a lot of that, yes.

Speaker 4 (02:00:40):
Thanks.

Speaker 3 (02:00:41):
Brock, you're an amazing man.
You're an amazing man.

Speaker 4 (02:00:43):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (02:00:46):
What you had in the back, say thank you, thank you.
She says thank you for doingthat.
I go.

Speaker 4 (02:00:50):
She said, bro, say thank you, thank you.
She says thank you for doingthat.
I go.
She said.
I said thank you, oh, you'rewelcome.
Because I had a feeling like Ishouldn't be being thanked for
it.
Or, yeah, a lot of it is justacceptance for something that
should to me.

Speaker 3 (02:01:06):
Acceptance isn't necessarily a bad thing, no, and
that's not.
That doesn't mean we have toaccept.
We have to learn to accept.
That's like we showed about it.
I had a hard time accepting theblessings of God, because who I
was and what I've done, andwhen the blessings of AA would
come out, hold on to them veryloosely, because I knew I don't
deserve these and they're goingto go away and I wouldn't enjoy
them as I should as I do now.

Speaker 4 (02:01:25):
To me, those things, like you said, like the way God
dealt with me about you, right,seriously, he's pointing at me,
by the way.
Yeah, rob, and something elseyou said about spat with her
that normally we could have.

Speaker 3 (02:01:45):
And you came back and apologized she thanked me for
that too.

Speaker 4 (02:01:48):
She goes.
We could have both a couple oftimes, different times, made
that go really sideways.
Oh yeah, and it didn't.
And she goes, thank you.
And I go for what you know,because I don't give myself that
credit, because to me it's theway I was before and should have
been, even though you knowthat's BS.

(02:02:10):
All this other stuff hashappened, but it's hard for me
to feel good about somethingthat you should have already
been doing.

Speaker 3 (02:02:16):
That's a given, it's a given to me.

Speaker 4 (02:02:19):
But thinking about the way you two just had me
think about it is big, huge.
It's huge, yeah, to me itwasn't even the second thought
other than sharing it with himabout myself, that I had an
attitude, because I thought hewas telling me what to do and
thought all this stuff and youknow, he needs to keep his thing

(02:02:41):
to himself and and I ain'tgoing back, I ain't going back,
right and by god, by God'sspirit said go back.
I told Bruce on the way out.
I said, okay, what day is this?
We're not coming on this day.
And then I pissed him offbefore we got in the truck.
I said maybe next week we'll bebetter.

(02:03:03):
So God was already doingsomething.
And then the second one wasgood and I walked back on that.
I was a lot better.
I told Bruce and he goes yeah,it was good and I go.
You know, that's when God hitme and he loves this word.
He's just as zealous about theprogram.
I'm serious.

(02:03:23):
It's going through my head,which I'm not liking.
This guy not liking hearing hisvoice and I go.
He's zealous for the programand I can get on board with that
.

Speaker 1 (02:03:34):
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (02:03:35):
You know it was great about the second meeting, Kim,
which he's not going to tell youis when he actually
participated.
He spoke three times.

Speaker 4 (02:03:42):
I was in that meeting .
How come you guys remember this?

Speaker 3 (02:03:45):
Because I've been around a long time, I see what
matters.
He shared three times in thatmeeting three, you know cause
it's a very open.

Speaker 1 (02:03:51):
And the next.

Speaker 3 (02:03:51):
Monday he was with us .

Speaker 1 (02:03:53):
Yeah, and the next Monday he was with us the growth
cabin because when you letGod's spirit work, no, no, no,
I'm talking about you're in ourmeeting.

Speaker 3 (02:04:00):
Okay, I'll meet the Monday meeting was driving to
one meeting and I was leaving togo to us and I texted him.
Giving the bird said you'regoing the wrong way and he goes.
No, because he was going to themonday meeting support.

Speaker 4 (02:04:17):
Susan was my game attack.

Speaker 3 (02:04:19):
Then he was there but he had shared three times he
didn't share before, three timesin that meeting about what we
just we haven't been talkingabout.
And uh, then he actually got,you know, god brought him back
and he participated in his ownrecovery and it was welcome
because we all knew his storyand everybody.
When mike speaks because ofwhat he's been through as women,
as fathers, I fucking listenbecause I'm not.

(02:04:39):
I maybe I hope I don't ever,but I might need that and I know
if I do, he'll be there for me.
So it's a gift, he's a gift youguys are gifts.

Speaker 4 (02:04:49):
Yes, I appreciate that I, I do.

Speaker 1 (02:04:51):
I mean you know, we say this all the time this has
been a gift from god from thevery beginning.
I mean the way this wholestudio came together, the way
katie allowed me to dump ashitload of money into this
equipment.
I mean, just, it's been.
It's been god sent, and youknow, and having people like you
that agree to come in and tellyour stories, and the bravery it

(02:05:11):
takes to do this, it'sincredible.
We have some good storiescoming up.
We have we've actually got twothat I've actually been holding
off on because I wanted tofinish this one, because I just
I was so adamant about finishingthis one.

Speaker 3 (02:05:24):
I put the other two off because I think when he says
finish, that means just achapter.
They're too off, because Ithink when he says finish, that
means just a chapter, thatdoesn't mean we won't ask you to
come back at the time and whenthat's a year or two years or
whatever.
No, I'd love for this to comeback.

Speaker 1 (02:05:36):
Oh yes, because that's the good stuff, that's
the good stuff and that's why,when she smiled a minute ago, I
got so excited, because justseeing that and knowing where
it's going and we're justrepeating ourselves at this
point, so thank you so much.

Speaker 2 (02:05:50):
I want to thank you as well for embracing Michael.

Speaker 4 (02:05:53):
Oh.

Speaker 1 (02:05:53):
I love him Absolutely .

Speaker 4 (02:05:55):
I'm just glad she hugged the cactus.
I've heard it say you know shewould do it actually when I
first asked her.

Speaker 1 (02:06:03):
But she didn't put enough faith in God brother.

Speaker 4 (02:06:05):
I know, and that made it easy to.
I said, no, larry's good.
When I sat there first time Ithought he was going to go okay,
talk Right, and I'd be like,about what I go, you don't even
have to do that.

Speaker 1 (02:06:18):
It just kind of goes.
Yeah, Rob, we try to keep itmoving.

Speaker 3 (02:06:22):
And then you notice as someone starts talking, god
will bring something to yourmind and ask another question
and pull out and get, because Iwant to know whether these
people listening.
I don't know who they are, butI want to know.
These are questions I havebecause when you're doing step
work you're just listening.
Sometimes I want to stopsomeone and share well, how old
were you then and why did thishappen?
Just for whatever reason, andwe dig in and get more out of it

(02:06:43):
thank you guys.

Speaker 4 (02:06:45):
Thank you Mike, thank Thank you Mike.
Thank you Kim.

Speaker 1 (02:06:47):
It's been Recovery Unfiltered that was a heavy one
baby.
That wasn't heavy, that wasfrickin'.
I'm light as a feather on thatone.

Speaker 3 (02:06:52):
You're not heavy.
You're my brother.
There you go.
You're fucking heavy.
You're heavy man.

Speaker 1 (02:06:57):
Thank you for joining us today.

Speaker 3 (02:07:02):
We hope you learned something today that will help
you If you did not come review.
If you don't like what youheard, kiss my, I can't say that
, can you?
Anyway, if you don't like whatyou heard, go ahead and tell us
that too.
We'll see what we can improve.

Speaker 1 (02:07:13):
We probably won't change nothing, but do it anyway
.
Hey, thanks, Rob.
Go back next week and hopefullysomething will be different and
something will sink in.
Take care, this has beenRecovery Unfiltered.
Thank you.

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