March 26, 2025 • 50 mins
For too long, the church has sheltered predators and silenced survivors. Behind pulpits, under the banner of faith, spiritual abusers have twisted scripture into a weapon, demanded loyalty over truth, and convinced people that obedience to them is obedience to God.
In this episode, we expose how predators hide in plain sight, why the church protects them, and what it costs to break free. If you've ever experienced spiritual abuse in the church, felt trapped by religious trauma, or been made to believe that leaving a toxic church meant leaving God, you're not crazy. And you're not alone.
Jesus flipped tables over religious corruption. Maybe it's time we start flipping some tables too.
Listen now. And if this episode shakes something in you...maybe it's time to start asking the hard questions.
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SPEAKER_00 (00:02):
The biggest trick the devil ever pulled was
convincing people he didn'texist.
But I'd argue the biggest trickchurch predators pull is
convincing you they are holy.
Welcome to Renovating the Soul,where we turn the mess into
something meaningful.
And today we're exposing thepredators in the pulpit.
(00:25):
Before we dive into today'sepisode and topic, I wanted to
pause and take a moment to beclear about something.
In the first season, I shared alittle bit about my background
growing up in church and made itobvious that I am a Christian.
However, I didn't create thispodcast as a Christian podcast,
and that was done on purpose.
It's not because I don't believein God, but it's because I
(00:48):
refuse to use God orChristianity as a gimmick or as
a pawn.
Too many people today areslapping a Christian label on
something just to gainfollowers, build a brand, or
make money, and I'm not here forthat.
It's timeout with using God asjust a genie or something that
you need to make yourself lookbetter.
(01:09):
It's time out for saying thatyou're a Christian, but your
life and the way your characteris and the way your habits are
are completely opposite of whatChristian principles are
supposed to be.
This isn't about trends.
This is about truth.
And the truth is spiritualpredators thrive not because
they are holy, but becausepeople refuse to question them.
(01:30):
They don't look like wolves,they look like shepherds.
And that's why they get awaywith it.
If we really thought about it,this isn't just happening in the
pulpit.
The predators are in the music.
They're in our homes, they're inthe places we trust the most.
And that's what makes them sodangerous.
We think we'd recognize them.
(01:51):
We think the abuse would beobvious, but the reality, most
predators don't look likevillains.
They look like the people weadmire, the ones we respect, the
ones we follow.
Let's define what we're reallytalking about here because words
like predator and spiritualabuse are thrown around a lot,
(02:13):
but not everyone fullyunderstands what they actually
mean.
And I want us all to be on thesame page with what we're
talking about today.
So what is a predator?
A predator is someone who preyson others for their own gain,
whether that's power, control,money, or influence.
They manipulate, deceive, andtake advantage of people's
(02:34):
trust.
And the most dangerous ones,they don't look dangerous at
all.
Now, what is spiritual abuse?
Spiritual abuse is when someoneuses God, faith, or religious
teachings to manipulate,control, or harm others.
It's when a leader makes youfeel like questioning them is
the same as questioning God.
It's when obedience is demanded,not earned.
(02:58):
It's when fear, guilt, or shameare used to keep you in line.
Spiritual abuse is dangerousbecause it doesn't always feel
like abuse at first.
It often looks like devotion,loyalty, and being a good
Christian.
But over time, it drains you,controls you, and leaves you
(03:19):
questioning yourself more thanyou've ever questioned them.
So let's talk about it.
Because if we're going to wakeup, we have to start by seeing
them for who they really are.
Now, moment of transparency.
I have been working on thisepisode for probably longer than
I should have, because I've beentrying to bring my place.
(04:15):
And that this isn't about beingmessy.
It's not about name-dropping orname-calling.
It's about the truth, period.
And I am so sick and tired ofhow much spiritual abuse is
plaguing our churches.
So this won't go into all of thedeep aspects of spiritual abuse,
but I do want to highlyrecommend two books.
(04:36):
This book called The SubtlePower of Spiritual Abuse changed
the way that I understandspiritual abuse.
In fact, I didn't know that Iwas spiritually abused until I
read this very book.
Highly recommend.
The second book that I recommendis called Churches That Abuse.
And I liken that to case study.
(04:57):
So if you've never experiencedspiritual abuse, or if you're
wondering, have I experiencedspiritual abuse?
Now they might uh the bookitself doesn't deem itself as a
book of case studies.
That was my own language and myown interpretation.
But churches that abuse, it goesthrough various stories and
experiences from that peoplehave had real stories, real
(05:21):
experiences in real churchesstarting back probably in like
the maybe 80s or 90s.
I don't remember the exactdates, but it's a bit older of a
book.
And that book is, I mean, I'vebeen in church all my life and
I've never heard some of thestories like I've heard in that
book.
So I highly recommend those twobooks for you to learn more
(05:41):
about spiritual abuse, for youto deep take a deeper dive into
spiritual abuse.
And I think that the writers andthe authors of those two books
are were not seeking an agenda.
I think that those authors feltlike how I felt, and they and
they say that in their books,where you're filled with fear
and and hesitancy about callingout people and about you know
(06:05):
having to discuss these topicsthat people don't want to expose
and they don't want to talkabout.
And so I trust the sources.
I read the sources.
I wanted to make sure that Iprovided you all with some solid
resources so that you can takethis episode, leave from this
episode, and continue yourresearch and your awareness
about spiritual abuse.
(06:25):
Now let's continue on.
Predators don't look how youexpect them.
And that's what makes predatorsin the pulpit and predators in
our churches and predators inthis religious and spiritual
systems so dangerous.
Because as I mentioned earlier,they don't always look like
wolves, they look likeshepherds, they are the best
(06:47):
dressed, they are giftedspeakers, they are respected
leaders, they have spirituallanguage that makes them seem
trustworthy, they arecharismatic, they are you know,
typically and often goodlooking.
They wear really nice clothesand jewelry and they carry
themselves with dignity andclass.
(07:08):
And people usually want to betheir friends or be around them.
They don't look like the creepyguy or girl in the corner.
They're not the um shy one orthe one that's you know, you you
gotta, you know, you gotta keepyour your eye out on.
They're usually the ones thatcapture your attention.
And I know from personalexperience because I've walked
(07:30):
among them.
I've walked among many pastorsand preachers and teachers and
and ministers and evangelists.
I've walked um I've walked amongso many of them, and I know how
they carried themselves.
And when I was younger, I didn'teven realize I was in a
(07:52):
spiritually abusive environmentbecause it was all I knew.
My grandfather was an incrediblepresence in the church, and for
a long time I thought that wasjust what spiritual leadership
looked like.
My grandfather was tall, I thinklike six, six, six, seven, six,
eight, something crazy.
He was tall in stature, he washandsome, he was charismatic, he
(08:13):
was fun to be around, and manyjust like him, all of his little
pastor and and bishop friends,they were very similar in that.
But looking back, it wasfear-based control and not
leadership.
We were more afraid of him thanwe were, we then we felt
welcomed by him.
It was what he said went, it washe was the voice and the
(08:38):
mouthpiece of God.
Um, and when you see God as adictator who is more about the
rules and about you obeying him,then he is about having the
balance of obedience with love.
When we put the emphasis on thefear of God and obeying God and
(09:00):
how people who didn't obey Goddied and dropped dead and were
cursed, when that's the biggeremphasis than Jesus' sacrifice
of love, then that also is howthe pastor will carry himself.
And so that is how I would Igrew up in these churches
thinking that this was just howit is.
They're called, they're chosen,they're anointed by God to be in
(09:24):
this position.
But um, that's the problem.
We don't recognize abuse whenit's packaged as anointing or
the anointed one or the chosenone.
And let me just say here that atthis point, I should say this
might be a good place to plugthis in.
Just because someone has atitle, just because someone has
(09:46):
a building, just because theyare a pastor or they call
themselves an apostle, which Idon't believe exists in today,
um, but just because they callthemselves a prophet, an
evangelist, uh, whatever, youput the title in front of it,
does not mean that God chosethem.
It does not mean that they werecalled to this.
(10:07):
Some people are callingthemselves.
Um, most people, I would say,choose it.
And I think that having thechoice to choose is okay.
If you choose to walk into beinga pastor, I'm not saying that
that's wrong.
What's wrong is you choosing itand then making everyone think
and convincing everyone andmanipulating everyone to believe
(10:30):
that God chose you for that.
That's a very different angle.
And these predators aren't justout here alone.
Unfortunately, they thrivebecause the system allows them
to.
The church should be a refuge, aplace of refuge.
(10:51):
It should be what what what weused to call it a hospital where
you come in, you might come insick, but you you leave better,
which I know doesn't alwayshappen in hospitals, but that's
just you know the way they woulddescribe the church, right?
But for predators, it's theperfect hunting ground.
Why?
(11:12):
Because it's built on trust, andwhen trust is weaponized, it it
becomes a trap.
And this is one of my biggestgrumbles.
Like one of the things that justgets me to my core, just makes
my blood boil thinking about howmuch our churches have become a
playground for predators.
(11:34):
They almost create the perfectenvironment for predators
because there's high trust butlow accountability, meaning that
we're told to trust these peopleno matter what.
Put our lives in their hands,that everything they say and do
is what God would say and do.
(11:54):
And that's why I was saying whenthey manipulate you into
thinking that God called themand chose them in the and that
God speaks to them as He spokein the Old Testament, you do
believe because you don't knowany better, but because they
need your trust.
And so they we trust thembecause of these things, and we
trust them because we think thisis what God wants, but then
(12:16):
there's low accountability.
We can't question them, we can'tcall out their inconsistencies
or the contradictions.
We can't tell them where they'refailing or where they're weak.
We can't ask about the money.
There's very low accountability.
(12:38):
And churches protect predatorsbecause these predators they
they bring in money orfollowers.
Um or because calling them outmeans causing division.
Or as I mentioned, becausepeople believe that questioning
them, questioning the pastor,the leader, means questioning
(12:59):
God.
And I remember my last churchsituation being falsely accused
of stealing members, of pushingpeople out, of causing drama.
But the crazy part, I wasserving my heart out.
My husband was serving his heartout.
(13:19):
We not we were not only leading,but we created the Bible study
at the church.
We were not only leading, but wecreated the Sunday school at the
church.
I was running the mini women'sministry, which I had a
beautiful experience with, but Iwas running the women's
ministry.
We were showing up early andstaying late.
(13:40):
We would wake our babies up.
We had two at the time, Khaleland Zeus, and they were little
guys, like maybe three and one.
They were they were prettylittle.
And we were waking them up at 6a.m., 5 30, 6 a.m.
to get ready so that we can getto church by 6 37 so that we can
(14:02):
start the Bible club Biblestudy.
I don't remember the exacttimes, but I do remember we were
getting up at 6 a.m.
Waking them babies up before thesun even came out so that we can
go and lead that Bible study.
Ask me, did the elders everattend?
(14:22):
Okay, I'll tell you, no, theydidn't.
The elders wouldn't even get upearly to attend the Bible study.
They were barely at, I'm sorry,the Sunday school, they were
barely at the Bible study.
Ask me if they taught a lesson.
(14:43):
Sometimes we would have to comeget up at 6 a.m.
Um, Quincy would have to teachand then he would have to
preach.
Sometimes I would have to teachand then I would have to preach.
I don't I didn't do that asoften because that was just too
much for me.
Quincy's more professional thanme.
He can do that.
I I just um I'm I just cannot.
That's just not, I didn't have Ididn't build up my stamina then
(15:03):
in that way.
So I if I ever did it, it wasprobably like one time, but more
so for Quincy, we would have toteach, and then he would have to
go preach.
And then if I if I even if Ididn't preach, I would have to
pray, I would have to sit withpeople.
I mean, we were doing so much,and ask me what the elders were
doing.
Oh, nothing.
So when I had to sit there andbe falsely accused of stealing
(15:24):
members, stealing members to gowhere?
Because who was starting thechurch?
Not me, not my husband.
That was something we neverwanted to do because we know how
much these churches aren'thelping anybody.
So where was I stealing members?
Who was I pushing out?
I asked for specific names.
Who, what families have Ioffended and hurt?
(15:46):
What people have I offended andhurt so bad?
Because if I really did that,then I need to go to them and
make amends and correction.
If I, as a leader in thischurch, offended someone, if I
as a leader in this church havecaused people to leave, then I
need to correct that.
I was never told who it was.
(16:06):
The one family that wasmentioned happens to be a family
that we are still friends withto this day.
But because they had left beforeus and they didn't get to talk
to a lot of people before theyleft, um, the leaders of the
church were able to positionthat and use that um to their
advantage.
And I don't think they saidtheir name, but I mean, it's
(16:27):
pretty obvious, right?
Uh, well, I shouldn't say that,but um, they definitely alluded
to the fact that that was thefamily that we um caused to
leave.
And that family, as I mentioned,we were still friends with.
So when I was sitting there,right, and I and we're being
falsely accused of all of thesecrazy things that just didn't
(16:48):
make sense when our realproblems were with the elders.
Our real problem was with thepastor, our real problem was
with the fact that the churchwas no longer functioning as a
church and that we felt as ifthe Holy Spirit was no longer
operating in that space.
Those were our real problems.
Asked me if they cared aboutthose things.
Ask me if they cared aboutfollowing scripture and making
(17:10):
sure that their elders werepreachers and teachers in the
pulpit carrying theirresponsibility.
Ask me if they said or weretrying to hold those elders
accountable to being just umshepherds over the people
because that's what they weresupposed to be.
The elders were the ones thatwere supposed to be caring for
the people, knowing the people'sstruggles.
(17:30):
But you know what?
As I sat there, I was sooffended and I was pissed.
You know why?
Because I was sitting there,literally thinking and seeing
people's faces, hearing theirstories, hearing the very things
that people just asked me forprayer for, remembering the text
messages I would get throughoutthe week of marriages that were
(17:51):
on the verge of divorce, of menstruggling with um sexual
adversions of girls in thatchurch who were struggling with
anxiety and depression, of myown friends who were going
through emotional and spiritualturmoil.
And as I sat there, I couldn'tbelieve that out of all the
(18:12):
things going on in that church,out of everything that needed to
be addressed and fixed and andand nurtured, that they would
sit in my face and tell me thatI was still trying to steal
members, that I was causingdivision and drama.
(18:33):
Yeah, it was crazy.
But that's when I realized thissystem isn't about truth, it's
about control.
And we have to address the factthat it's not as if these
predators are breaking the law.
Now we know that some do, right?
Because there's money, money, Iwas gonna say money laundering,
but I don't know that I know ifa church was money laundering.
(18:55):
But I wouldn't be surprised.
But I was really mentioned, Iwas really trying to say there's
fraud for sure.
I 100% know of churches that dofraud or have done fraud, I
should say.
Um, there's fraud.
There is sexual abuse thathappens with whether it's
somebody of age or somebodyyounger.
(19:16):
Um there is physical abuse thathas happened.
So we do know that they can andthey do break the law.
But we know the obvious side,but I'm talking today about how
it's not always so obvious.
And so these predators aren'talways breaking the law or doing
something obviously wrong.
(19:37):
But no, the most dangerous ones,they use the very thing that
should bring life scripture,faith, and obedience to keep
people under control.
Those same people that sat theretrying to accuse us of all of
these things, they were tryingto use scripture that they
didn't even understand, thatthey weren't even interpreting
right on us.
(19:58):
I mean, think about it.
Like, real, you're really tryingto use scripture and you don't
even read your Bible for real.
You you've never even gone as apastor, as a leader, we're
talking about spiritual leaders.
We're not talking about laypeople, right?
We're talking about these peoplethat are supposed to be
preachers, teachers, ministersof the faith and of the gospel
who have not gone past theBible, who have not read and
really studied the meaning ofthe very verses that they quote.
(20:21):
But they still will try toweaponize it and use it against
you.
Honey, they had the, they hadthey had the right one that day.
Because none of that phased me.
No scripture that came out ofanyone's mouth that day had any
type of manipulation or phase onme because I actually know what
the scriptures mean.
Ironically enough, I've neverbeen a memorizer.
(20:45):
Like I'm not that person thatcan just quote a scripture or
throw a scripture out at you.
Um, I will know the context, Iwill know like the verse and the
and the and the chapter, but Iyeah, um yeah, I just think it's
funny when people quotescripture, right?
(21:06):
But they really don't know whatthey're saying.
And I also understand that noteveryone is like me in a
position where you've studiedand you know your theology.
In fact, I would say that manychurches don't even encourage
you to go deeper, and that's aproblem in and of itself.
The fact that they don'tencourage you to go any deeper.
(21:30):
But I want it, I want to saythat right now because I don't
want you all to feel like, well,dang, I don't know scripture
that well.
So when someone's saying it tome, how do I know?
Like that's the point of thisepisode is and and really the
lesson that you should take fromthis is just because someone
quotes a scripture at you, don'tlet it manipulate you, control
(21:52):
you, or coerce you into doingsomething that doesn't feel
right.
Take whatever scripture they'resaying to you.
Look it up, okay?
Look it up and see what is themeaning of this, what was the
story, and you'll you'll oftenfind that it has no connection
or correlation with what theywere trying to tell you.
And that's what this episode isit's a wake-up call.
(22:15):
It's trying to pull some of youall who have been pushed out and
hurt by church back in, not tochurch, but to God.
But that was a little tangent.
I got up on a little side note.
But but again, this is howspiritual abuse works.
It's subtle, it's deceptive.
And by the time you recognizeit, it's already taken hold.
(22:38):
I didn't recognize that I wasspiritually abused, as I've
already said.
I didn't recognize that I was ina spiritually abusive
environment or that I wasspiritually abused until I read
that book that I told you allabout.
So let's really look at howspiritual abuse operates.
Spiritual abuse disguises itselfas discipline, correction, or
faithfulness.
And how they keep you and I, howthey've kept us in control, is
(23:02):
that they use scriptures tosilence you.
Touch not my anointed.
Um, number two, they confusespirituality with control.
So they tell you you have to beobedient to the man, to the
woman of God.
Number three, they theyweaponize loyalty.
(23:22):
Have you heard after all I'vedone for you, after all this
church has done for you, afterhow we've been here for you, I
need you.
You've been so faithful.
And number four, they keep youbusy so you don't ask questions.
And of course, this list is notexhausted by any means.
This is just some main ways thatagain can look like they're good
(23:46):
things on the surface, butthey're really tactics and tools
to keep you uh in their control.
That last one really hits, theykeep you keep you busy so you
don't ask questions.
Because I know a lot ofbusybodies in the church.
I know a lot of people that arejust doing, doing, doing, doing,
doing, and they're so busy theycan't see the signs.
(24:08):
And when someone tries to pointit out to them, they're so
confused by what they're tryingto say.
Because they've been so busythat they haven't really been
paying attention to the littledetails.
Maybe they felt it once or twiceor here and there, but they just
try to keep going.
And for years, that was me too.
I ignored the red flags becauseI was taught that church was the
(24:29):
place to do God's work.
I also at one point lovedchurch.
But I felt like this was theonly place that I could preach
and teach and really use mygifts and be me.
My identity was so deeplyconnected to church.
Even when I felt that God wascalling me away, even when I
(24:51):
felt as if I heard and had thisfeeling of God telling me that I
was not called to the church, Iwrestled with it because it went
against everything I was told.
It went against everything thatI was told.
It went against the things thatI believed.
I didn't think that you could bea Christian and not go to
(25:12):
church.
I I remember when Quincy'sfriends, uh he has a darn, he
has some old friends that umstopped going to church and they
were telling Quincy how good itwas on that side and how much
they felt, how much how freethey felt.
And I remember thinking, how canthey still be a Christian and
not go to church?
And this isn't like this is justprobably within the past six,
five, so years.
(25:33):
And I was still stuck in thatmentality of like, you know, I
obviously know you don't have totake abuse and you don't have to
deal with certain things and youneed to find the right church.
But I'm like, how could theyjust not go to church at all?
But now I realize that God wasnever calling me to stay in
abuse, He was calling me to thetruth, and the truth is not
(25:56):
always in the way that thesechurches operate, and so you
might be wondering, like I have,and like like I do even
sometimes, how do thesepredators keep getting away with
it?
Why aren't people speaking up?
Why do good, faithful peoplestay silent?
(26:17):
Even me in many ways.
I haven't exposed people'ssecrets or called some of these
people out by name.
I've not decided to put a bigwarning label out there.
But silence isn't alwaysagreement.
Sometimes it's about fear,confusion, or simply not knowing
(26:38):
what to do.
And I definitely lived in fearfor a long time.
But I'm learning and acceptingthat silence isn't neutral.
If you see abuse and saynothing, you are helping it
continue.
And so there's ways that you cando it, right?
There are ways that certainpeople do it where like church,
(27:00):
uh like the book Churches ThatAbuse, where they call out the
pastors and the churches byname.
There are those modern-dayYouTubers, you know, I follow
one all things theology, wherethey call out these preachers by
name and face, and they theytake their actual sermons and
point out to you where the uhcontradictions lie, where the
(27:23):
problems lie, why it'smanipulative, deceptive, and
just peer against scripture.
But then there's people like me,where I really don't want to
coin myself as the person who isdropping names and secrets and
exposing people's stuff.
But I will not be silenced.
I will use this podcast as a wayfor my voice to be heard because
(27:48):
it's been pushed aside too much.
But oftentimes, as we were aswe're talking about, why do good
people stay silent?
For many reasons.
Some being that they fear losingcommunity.
That was me.
I felt like my community ishere.
I want to stay, I want to fight,I want to be a part no matter
(28:08):
how much of abuse or how much Ihave to take.
I think I probably wouldn't havecoined, I didn't coin this last
church situation as abuse, but Iknew that I was taking some
stuff.
And I wanted to stay because Ihad built a community for
several years there, and I lovedthose people.
Some people also stay silentbecause they think that God's
gonna handle it, God's gonnatake care of it, not realizing
(28:32):
that like God put us here for areason, right?
Like to use our voices.
Okay, okay, okay.
Um, also not wanting to believethat their leader could be a
predator.
You really just don't want tohave to look and see it that
way.
And I can raise my hand and saythat was me too.
When we left our church,actually, almost every church
that I've left for differentreasons, right?
(28:53):
Now I'm not all, I've not leftevery church because it was bad.
I left one church because Imoved.
Um, I left another because I,again, I moved.
Like I lived in Atlanta, I didchapel in Atlanta.
Um, I joined a church that Ididn't find was a good fit.
So I ended up leaving there forthose reasons.
But then I moved to LA.
(29:14):
Um, I went to like Hill SongChurch out there, but then I
became a member of One Church.
And at the time I enjoyed OneChurch, even though I see a lot
of the problematic things of itnow.
Um, at the time it definitelygave me an emotional high or
like an emotional security thatI needed because I was also in a
(29:36):
toxic relationship.
And so I really was looking forGod to affirm that relationship,
and I was looking for God togive me security in that
relationship, and I sought thatthrough attending this church,
and that's an error on my part,and so that church became a big
part of my comfort in thatseason.
Um, but I I left that churchbecause I moved, not because I
(29:58):
saw the the the red flags, um,but I see them now, right?
In retrospection.
Um, but I'm just saying not tosay I haven't left all churches
because of something bad.
But when we when I have left thechurches, especially the last
two, where I actually built acommunity, people straight up
(30:19):
stopped speaking to us.
It's as if we were wiped off theplanet.
Like even at the last church,where things were said and and
made to be about what we did orwhat we didn't do, um, fewer
people reached out.
And honestly, the people who didreach out were like not the
people I was the most connectedto.
(30:39):
And even though certain peoplewere like, oh, I didn't believe
it, or oh, I wrote it off, theystill didn't call to fact check.
They still didn't call to seelike and hear our side of the
story.
They just thought, oh, theygoing through, they they
unrepentant and in sin, and theythey we just gonna leave them
alone or whatever they convincethemselves of.
And I remember thinking, is thisa church or a gang?
(31:04):
Like it's one of my favoritesayings to say now that churches
are like many gangs.
Because the second you're out,you're an enemy.
It's as if we're not allChristian.
It's as if we all don't believein the same God.
That like once I can't, once Idon't attend your church any
longer, we can't hang out, wecan't talk, we can't go to
(31:25):
lunch, I can't call and see howyou're doing, even though I've
kept relationships withco-workers when I left my job,
as I know many who have done.
When you become a friend withsomeone on your job and you
leave that job, you stillmaintain that friendship a lot
of times, especially dependingon how solid it is.
Right?
(31:46):
But when you leave a church, ohno, we can't sit with you no
more.
You're not one of us any longer.
So, what happens when youfinally see the truth?
When you realize that the churchyou once trusted wasn't what you
thought it was, when you wake upto the fact that you were
(32:06):
spiritually abused, because thehardest part of all of this
isn't just leaving, it's whatcomes after.
And that's really where Istruggled.
I felt secure in my decision toleave, though, as hard as it
was, and I'm speakingspecifically to the last church
where I dedicated the most of mytime.
(32:28):
I showed up the best I could.
I went in knowing that I didn'twant to do any type of ministry,
went against that feelingbecause I was, you know, pumped
and primed and believed in, andyou know, and I and I do believe
that I'm strongly gifted and Ibring something, and I know that
I brought something different,right, to the church, especially
knowing that it's not myintention to abuse and because
(32:50):
of my background with um thechurches that I grew up in and
not wanting to manipulate andhurt people.
As I've said, I sat among them,I've walked among them.
I have pastors, preachers,teachers, apostles, or not
apostles in real life, justpeople that deem themselves
that, um, but prophets,evangelists, all these people
just within my own family onboth sides, my mom and my dad's
side.
So I've sat with them, as Imentioned earlier.
(33:11):
I've been around them.
I know what that's like.
I know the conversations thatthey have when they step off the
pulpit.
I know how much they're in itfor the money or the fame or the
glory.
And me going into my churchesand doing leadership and
preaching and teaching andrunning the youth ministry,
being a youth pastor, um,running the women's ministry, I
always kept that in mind.
(33:32):
I was always very careful.
I was even very careful in mysermons with how I talked and
how I defined things because Ididn't want to manipulate or
even accidentally manipulateabuse people or abuse people.
So I was secure in my decisionto leave because I knew that I
no longer was in that space offreedom.
(33:54):
I was, I was no longer in thatspace where um we seen eye to
eye anymore.
And it felt like it was going tobe more of a fight than it was
going to be a cohesiveenvironment for us to get along,
us being my husband and I withthe elders and the leadership of
that church.
And so it wasn't hard to makethat decision, but it was so
hard to deal with the aftermath.
(34:16):
Even after you recognize thatyou've been in a spiritually
abusive environment or a toxicchurch, you have grief.
It feels like losing family.
You might feel lost,disconnected, or guilty.
You may feel angry and confused,and that's okay too.
I've definitely gone through allof that emotional roller
(34:40):
coaster, being upset with God.
Like, God, you knew I didn'twant to do ministry.
You knew I didn't want to comeinto this church, you and and do
anything and get close to thesepeople.
I wanted to keep my guard up.
Why did my guard get let down?
Why was this the place where Ifelt the most comfortable and
the most vulnerable to be myselfjust for it to backfire and for
(35:00):
me to be accused, and for us,I'm gonna put my husband in this
too, because it wasn't just me,but for us to be accused of the
most outlandish of things, likethey couldn't even come up with
some real stuff.
But the most outlandish ofthings, I felt very angry, very
hurt, very confused, and notjust by those people, but but by
God too.
But I had to remember somethingthat I told myself that being a
(35:24):
believer of God is not the sameas being a believer of people.
I had to separate God from theinstitution.
That just because a church wastoxic doesn't mean that God is.
Jesus flipped the tables overreligious corruption.
He was never about protectingthe false institutions.
(35:45):
I had to remind myself of thatstory about Jesus flipping those
tables because a lot of peoplehave taken that and turned it
into Jesus being this politicaladvocate and this radical
political, you know, guy forfeminism and racism and all of
these things.
And yet they themselves, eventhe ones fighting for the
political side of things and thepronouns and all these things,
(36:07):
even they miss the spiritualabuse.
And even in those spaces, theyare spiritually abusing people
because it's all about theiragenda.
But if we really go back to thatstory about Jesus flipping
tables, he saw the corruption.
He saw the religious leaderscharging people more so that
they could gain more.
(36:28):
He saw people, he saw thosepeople using the the people's
sacrifices and the things thatthey were bringing, their last
and and what they had.
He saw them using theirsacrifices to make profit.
(36:51):
They made their fame andpersonal gain, whatever it is, a
priority over spiritual health.
They made the gain of financesand manipulation and abuse.
They made this power bigger andmore important than actually
sending people and helpingpeople and directing people
towards God.
(37:13):
And so the bigger meaning thanwhat we've been told about Jesus
flipping the tables, becauseit's not even a scripture where
we can use it and say, Yeah, yousee, Jesus was flipping them
tables, that means I can cussyou out and be angry.
That's not what that's abouteither.
It was righteous anger becausehe saw what the religious
leaders were doing.
It was a moment for us torealize that he didn't just use
(37:33):
his words, but he took action.
This wasn't just about sellingdoves and exchanging money, it
was about the exploitation offaith.
The leaders allowed thecorruption because it benefited
them financially and maintainedtheir power over the people.
But Jesus was making it clearthat God's house isn't a place
for manipulation, abuse, orprofit.
(37:54):
It's a place of worship andtruth.
In fact, scripture literallysays worship him in spirit and
in truth.
So Jesus wasn't about protectingfalse institutions, and that's
where I had to separate God fromthe institution that, oh my
goodness, God, it wasn't youtrying to hurt me.
It wasn't you trying to takeaway my so-called family, it
(38:16):
wasn't you trying to push meinto something and then just
pull it out from under me.
It wasn't you trying to send medown this emotional spiral.
It was actually you protectingme.
It was actually you taking theblinders off my eyes once and
for all of the spiritual abusethat is plaguing the churches.
(38:38):
Oh my goodness, God, it was youreminding me of how you had told
me years ago that I was notcalled or meant for the church.
It was you using me to get outfrom under this manipulation,
this abuse of power to get outof this corrupt system so that I
could use my voice on thispodcast and wherever else I may
(38:58):
go, and conversations whenpeople call my phone and text
messages when people text me andDMs when people DM me.
You have pushed me out so that Ican use my voice in my own space
and in my own way to help thevery people that are still being
abused and manipulated by thesesystems.
Oh my goodness, God, it was youtaking back the power where
(39:21):
people thought they had powerover me because they put me in
their pulpit or on theirplatform.
But it was you actually givingme the power back to create my
own platform that no one cantake away from me or tell me
what I can or cannot say, or beoffended that I've said
something, or be offended at thefact that I'm talking about
character and seeking God inbetter ways and spiritual legacy
(39:44):
and the things that reallymatter as a Christian.
That I didn't lose power, Igained power.
That I didn't lose purpose, Igained purpose, and that became
a pivotal part of my healingjourney.
Shifting my mindset about how Isee God and how I see the
(40:08):
church.
I don't sit here as a person whobelieves that the church
functions the way that it is.
I don't believe that you have tobe a Christian to go to church.
And I sorry, I don't believethat you have to, in order to be
a Christian, you have to go tochurch.
I also don't believe that Godhas called us to church the way
(40:29):
that we are doing it now, theway we dress, the way we get
offering, the programs, the lackof, I mean, come on, we're not
even teaching the Bible.
How is it that so many of thesechurches believe that the Bible
is perfect and the Bible isinherent and the Bible is, you
know, all that God breathed, andthat these are God's word,
words, and yet they don't evenfollow them.
(40:51):
And again, it's not aboutmemorization, but they don't
even follow the very scripturesthat they're spewing out and
preaching.
You guys can think of theexamples, the contradictions in
people's lives.
Are they producing fruits of thespirit?
Are they worshiping God inspirit and in truth?
Where is the truth in thechurches?
When y'all find it, please letme know.
(41:13):
This was a pivotal part of myhealing, shifting my mindset to
not see that God and theinstitution are the same.
But if we're being honest, itfeels that way because so many
pastors and preachers aretelling you that God told them.
I just heard God say, God toldme, He said this, and and I'm
(41:35):
gonna be honest with y'all, I'mgonna I'm gonna let I'm gonna
let y'all in on a secret forthose who are being manipulated
by this kind of by this kind oflanguage.
They ain't hearing nothing butthemselves.
In fact, some of these peoplemay be hearing from the devil,
they think that they're audiblyhearing from God.
No, the things that these peoplesay, I I I have I literally
(41:57):
heard a pastor say that God toldhim that everyone in his
congregation was gonna get threemansions.
A year went by.
Maybe everybody in that churchdidn't have no three mansions.
Like, if you listen to thethings that these people are
claiming that God told them,it's all about money, fame,
(42:18):
power.
It's all about you.
It's all about everythinghappening here.
It's not about Jesus, it's notabout loving your neighbor, it's
not about turning the cheek,it's not about flipping the
tables in righteous anger, it'snot about calling out spiritual
abuse, it's not about the truth.
It's not these places keep usingthese cohesion tactics to make
(42:44):
us think that God and theinstitution and that God and the
church and that God and thepastor and that God and the
evangelist and that God and theminister are the same.
And I'm sorry they are not.
The same way that you and I havethe free will to choose to do
this, you know, renovating workis the same way that other
(43:06):
people have the free will toabuse, manipulate, and hurt
other people.
And so it is possible thatwithin these churches abuse can
occur.
But that is why these leadershave to and should take their
position so seriously, becauseyou have some of the most
(43:32):
vulnerable and desperate peoplein these audiences who deeply
want to root their faith insomething real.
Because for many of us, ourfaith is the center of our
lives, our faith is the core ofus.
If we were to lose that, wewouldn't know what to do or
where to go.
(43:53):
So faith is instrumental, andthat's why I wanted to start
this season out on this topicbecause no matter what your
faith is.
Is faith plays such a big rolein how we think and how we
believe, how we live, how wetalk, how we dress, and how we
act.
And many of us are living basedoff of a false idea.
Many of us are acting based offof false falsities.
(44:17):
We're not living in the truth.
We're not really free.
These churches are keeping us inthe very chains that Jesus was
said to have freed us from.
They are trying to keep us boundagain by their word, bound by
loyalty to them, bound bykeeping their secrets, bound by
staying silent, bound by notasking questions.
(44:41):
When Jesus is said to have setus free, why would he set us
free just for us to be to walkback in a church that's supposed
to be built on his name and bechained again?
Why?
He wouldn't.
He didn't, and he doesn't.
(45:05):
You have to give yourselfpermission to deconstruct and
relearn faith without fear.
You have to find safe spaces,whether that's trusted friends
or therapy or online communitiesor even just this podcast with
me and you where we talk.
(45:25):
Because I know what it's like tofeel like you're the only one
that sees the problem.
I know what it feels like tospeak up and be pushed out and
to be called all kinds ofthings, not just, I mean, over
the course of time, child.
I started really waking up backin high school, and when I tried
(45:46):
to ask questions about our faithand what we believe in, I was
slapped down and for years wentthrough some rest so much
turmoil with that.
So if you feel alone, if youdon't know where to start,
please email me, DM me, sign upfor the email list, let's talk.
(46:10):
Like you have to find those safespaces.
And one of my biggest pieces ofadvice is do not feel rushed to
find a new church.
Focus on healing first.
Oh, y'all.
I could hear the people tellingme that they wouldn't leave the
(46:31):
church that they feel like ispushing them out, or they feel
like it's not treating themwell, or they see the signs in.
They say, I can't leave yetbecause I haven't found
somewhere new, or because Goddidn't tell me to leave yet.
So they stay in an abusivesystem.
But those people have yet to askthemselves, do you think this is
(46:52):
really what God called you to?
To being abused and manipulatedand used?
Do you think this is reallywhere God wants you in a system
of toxicity and manipulation andcontrol?
Is that what his scriptures havetold you to be in?
To be back bound in chains fromthe very chains that he has
already freed you from?
I don't think so.
And so many people stay in theseabusive churches because they're
(47:13):
like, oh, I need to find thechurch, or they leave one toxic
church and dump it to anothertoxic church because they have
yet to realize the spiritualabuse that plagues these spaces.
They've yet to identify it.
They've yet to sit down andfocus on healing first.
And in that healing process,seeing all the areas in which
they were abused, so that youcan see the signs, so that you
(47:38):
can stop repeating the cycle.
So now that we've exposed it,what do we do next?
When you do come to therealization that you've been
spiritually abused, when you dorealize that you've been in a
toxic environment, how do wemove forward?
And how do we make sure thatthis cycle doesn't keep
repeating itself?
Because if we truly care aboutthe gospel, if we truly care
(48:02):
about justice and truth, then wecan't afford to stay silent
anymore.
Here's my final wake-up call.
If your church is more focusedon protecting its reputation
than protecting its people, it'snot a church, it's a business.
If calling out evil makes youdivisive, then what do we call
(48:23):
the person actually committingthe evil?
If you've been hurt by thechurch, hear me.
Jesus still loves you.
If you feel rejected by theplace that was supposed to love
you, you were not alone.
If people told you that you hadto stay in the church in order
to serve God, that was a lie.
(48:46):
The people who tried to silenceme thought they were taking my
voice away, but they actuallypropelled me into it.
And I will not be quiet.
And if you've been waiting forpermission to call it what it
is, here it is.
For too long, predators in thepulpit have hidden behind
scripture.
They have twisted faith into aweapon, silenced the abused, and
(49:08):
convinced people that obedienceto them is obedience to God.
But let me tell you something.
Real obedience to God looksnothing like submission to a
corrupt leader.
Jesus himself didn't bow to thereligious elite.
He called them snakes,hypocrites, whitewashed tombs,
beautiful on the outside butfull of death on the inside.
(49:31):
He didn't protect their image,he exposed their rot.
And yet somehow we've beenconvinced that questioning
leadership is rebellion, thatcalling out spiritual abuse is
divisive, that speaking up meanswe are the problem.
No.
The problem is the silence.
The problem is the cover-ups.
The problem is the people whosee the evil and do nothing.
(49:52):
The time for being quiet isover.
You don't owe your loyalty to acorrupt system.
You don't owe your silence to apredator in the pulpit.
You don't owe your faith to aplace that manipulates,
controls, and profits off yourdevotion.
What you owe is this (50:08):
your own healing, your own freedom, your
own ability to stand in truthand walk away from the chains
that were disguised as faith.
So I'll say it again.
If calling out evil makes youdivisive, then what do we call
the person actually committingthe evil?
(50:29):
And if Jesus himself flipped thetables over religious
corruption, then maybe it's timewe start flipping some tables
too.
The biggest trick the devil ever pulled was
convincing people he didn'texist.
But I'd argue the biggest trickchurch predators pull is
convincing you they are holy.
Welcome to Renovating the Soul,where we turn the mess into
something meaningful.
And today we're exposing thepredators in the pulpit.
(00:25):
Before we dive into today'sepisode and topic, I wanted to
pause and take a moment to beclear about something.
In the first season, I shared alittle bit about my background
growing up in church and made itobvious that I am a Christian.
However, I didn't create thispodcast as a Christian podcast,
and that was done on purpose.
It's not because I don't believein God, but it's because I
(00:48):
refuse to use God orChristianity as a gimmick or as
a pawn.
Too many people today areslapping a Christian label on
something just to gainfollowers, build a brand, or
make money, and I'm not here forthat.
It's timeout with using God asjust a genie or something that
you need to make yourself lookbetter.
(01:09):
It's time out for saying thatyou're a Christian, but your
life and the way your characteris and the way your habits are
are completely opposite of whatChristian principles are
supposed to be.
This isn't about trends.
This is about truth.
And the truth is spiritualpredators thrive not because
they are holy, but becausepeople refuse to question them.
(01:30):
They don't look like wolves,they look like shepherds.
And that's why they get awaywith it.
If we really thought about it,this isn't just happening in the
pulpit.
The predators are in the music.
They're in our homes, they're inthe places we trust the most.
And that's what makes them sodangerous.
We think we'd recognize them.
(01:51):
We think the abuse would beobvious, but the reality, most
predators don't look likevillains.
They look like the people weadmire, the ones we respect, the
ones we follow.
Let's define what we're reallytalking about here because words
like predator and spiritualabuse are thrown around a lot,
(02:13):
but not everyone fullyunderstands what they actually
mean.
And I want us all to be on thesame page with what we're
talking about today.
So what is a predator?
A predator is someone who preyson others for their own gain,
whether that's power, control,money, or influence.
They manipulate, deceive, andtake advantage of people's
(02:34):
trust.
And the most dangerous ones,they don't look dangerous at
all.
Now, what is spiritual abuse?
Spiritual abuse is when someoneuses God, faith, or religious
teachings to manipulate,control, or harm others.
It's when a leader makes youfeel like questioning them is
the same as questioning God.
It's when obedience is demanded,not earned.
(02:58):
It's when fear, guilt, or shameare used to keep you in line.
Spiritual abuse is dangerousbecause it doesn't always feel
like abuse at first.
It often looks like devotion,loyalty, and being a good
Christian.
But over time, it drains you,controls you, and leaves you
(03:19):
questioning yourself more thanyou've ever questioned them.
So let's talk about it.
Because if we're going to wakeup, we have to start by seeing
them for who they really are.
Now, moment of transparency.
I have been working on thisepisode for probably longer than
I should have, because I've beentrying to bring my place.
(04:15):
And that this isn't about beingmessy.
It's not about name-dropping orname-calling.
It's about the truth, period.
And I am so sick and tired ofhow much spiritual abuse is
plaguing our churches.
So this won't go into all of thedeep aspects of spiritual abuse,
but I do want to highlyrecommend two books.
(04:36):
This book called The SubtlePower of Spiritual Abuse changed
the way that I understandspiritual abuse.
In fact, I didn't know that Iwas spiritually abused until I
read this very book.
Highly recommend.
The second book that I recommendis called Churches That Abuse.
And I liken that to case study.
(04:57):
So if you've never experiencedspiritual abuse, or if you're
wondering, have I experiencedspiritual abuse?
Now they might uh the bookitself doesn't deem itself as a
book of case studies.
That was my own language and myown interpretation.
But churches that abuse, it goesthrough various stories and
experiences from that peoplehave had real stories, real
(05:21):
experiences in real churchesstarting back probably in like
the maybe 80s or 90s.
I don't remember the exactdates, but it's a bit older of a
book.
And that book is, I mean, I'vebeen in church all my life and
I've never heard some of thestories like I've heard in that
book.
So I highly recommend those twobooks for you to learn more
(05:41):
about spiritual abuse, for youto deep take a deeper dive into
spiritual abuse.
And I think that the writers andthe authors of those two books
are were not seeking an agenda.
I think that those authors feltlike how I felt, and they and
they say that in their books,where you're filled with fear
and and hesitancy about callingout people and about you know
(06:05):
having to discuss these topicsthat people don't want to expose
and they don't want to talkabout.
And so I trust the sources.
I read the sources.
I wanted to make sure that Iprovided you all with some solid
resources so that you can takethis episode, leave from this
episode, and continue yourresearch and your awareness
about spiritual abuse.
(06:25):
Now let's continue on.
Predators don't look how youexpect them.
And that's what makes predatorsin the pulpit and predators in
our churches and predators inthis religious and spiritual
systems so dangerous.
Because as I mentioned earlier,they don't always look like
wolves, they look likeshepherds, they are the best
(06:47):
dressed, they are giftedspeakers, they are respected
leaders, they have spirituallanguage that makes them seem
trustworthy, they arecharismatic, they are you know,
typically and often goodlooking.
They wear really nice clothesand jewelry and they carry
themselves with dignity andclass.
(07:08):
And people usually want to betheir friends or be around them.
They don't look like the creepyguy or girl in the corner.
They're not the um shy one orthe one that's you know, you you
gotta, you know, you gotta keepyour your eye out on.
They're usually the ones thatcapture your attention.
And I know from personalexperience because I've walked
(07:30):
among them.
I've walked among many pastorsand preachers and teachers and
and ministers and evangelists.
I've walked um I've walked amongso many of them, and I know how
they carried themselves.
And when I was younger, I didn'teven realize I was in a
(07:52):
spiritually abusive environmentbecause it was all I knew.
My grandfather was an incrediblepresence in the church, and for
a long time I thought that wasjust what spiritual leadership
looked like.
My grandfather was tall, I thinklike six, six, six, seven, six,
eight, something crazy.
He was tall in stature, he washandsome, he was charismatic, he
(08:13):
was fun to be around, and manyjust like him, all of his little
pastor and and bishop friends,they were very similar in that.
But looking back, it wasfear-based control and not
leadership.
We were more afraid of him thanwe were, we then we felt
welcomed by him.
It was what he said went, it washe was the voice and the
(08:38):
mouthpiece of God.
Um, and when you see God as adictator who is more about the
rules and about you obeying him,then he is about having the
balance of obedience with love.
When we put the emphasis on thefear of God and obeying God and
(09:00):
how people who didn't obey Goddied and dropped dead and were
cursed, when that's the biggeremphasis than Jesus' sacrifice
of love, then that also is howthe pastor will carry himself.
And so that is how I would Igrew up in these churches
thinking that this was just howit is.
They're called, they're chosen,they're anointed by God to be in
(09:24):
this position.
But um, that's the problem.
We don't recognize abuse whenit's packaged as anointing or
the anointed one or the chosenone.
And let me just say here that atthis point, I should say this
might be a good place to plugthis in.
Just because someone has atitle, just because someone has
(09:46):
a building, just because theyare a pastor or they call
themselves an apostle, which Idon't believe exists in today,
um, but just because they callthemselves a prophet, an
evangelist, uh, whatever, youput the title in front of it,
does not mean that God chosethem.
It does not mean that they werecalled to this.
(10:07):
Some people are callingthemselves.
Um, most people, I would say,choose it.
And I think that having thechoice to choose is okay.
If you choose to walk into beinga pastor, I'm not saying that
that's wrong.
What's wrong is you choosing itand then making everyone think
and convincing everyone andmanipulating everyone to believe
(10:30):
that God chose you for that.
That's a very different angle.
And these predators aren't justout here alone.
Unfortunately, they thrivebecause the system allows them
to.
The church should be a refuge, aplace of refuge.
(10:51):
It should be what what what weused to call it a hospital where
you come in, you might come insick, but you you leave better,
which I know doesn't alwayshappen in hospitals, but that's
just you know the way they woulddescribe the church, right?
But for predators, it's theperfect hunting ground.
Why?
(11:12):
Because it's built on trust, andwhen trust is weaponized, it it
becomes a trap.
And this is one of my biggestgrumbles.
Like one of the things that justgets me to my core, just makes
my blood boil thinking about howmuch our churches have become a
playground for predators.
(11:34):
They almost create the perfectenvironment for predators
because there's high trust butlow accountability, meaning that
we're told to trust these peopleno matter what.
Put our lives in their hands,that everything they say and do
is what God would say and do.
(11:54):
And that's why I was saying whenthey manipulate you into
thinking that God called themand chose them in the and that
God speaks to them as He spokein the Old Testament, you do
believe because you don't knowany better, but because they
need your trust.
And so they we trust thembecause of these things, and we
trust them because we think thisis what God wants, but then
(12:16):
there's low accountability.
We can't question them, we can'tcall out their inconsistencies
or the contradictions.
We can't tell them where they'refailing or where they're weak.
We can't ask about the money.
There's very low accountability.
(12:38):
And churches protect predatorsbecause these predators they
they bring in money orfollowers.
Um or because calling them outmeans causing division.
Or as I mentioned, becausepeople believe that questioning
them, questioning the pastor,the leader, means questioning
(12:59):
God.
And I remember my last churchsituation being falsely accused
of stealing members, of pushingpeople out, of causing drama.
But the crazy part, I wasserving my heart out.
My husband was serving his heartout.
(13:19):
We not we were not only leading,but we created the Bible study
at the church.
We were not only leading, but wecreated the Sunday school at the
church.
I was running the mini women'sministry, which I had a
beautiful experience with, but Iwas running the women's
ministry.
We were showing up early andstaying late.
(13:40):
We would wake our babies up.
We had two at the time, Khaleland Zeus, and they were little
guys, like maybe three and one.
They were they were prettylittle.
And we were waking them up at 6a.m., 5 30, 6 a.m.
to get ready so that we can getto church by 6 37 so that we can
(14:02):
start the Bible club Biblestudy.
I don't remember the exacttimes, but I do remember we were
getting up at 6 a.m.
Waking them babies up before thesun even came out so that we can
go and lead that Bible study.
Ask me, did the elders everattend?
(14:22):
Okay, I'll tell you, no, theydidn't.
The elders wouldn't even get upearly to attend the Bible study.
They were barely at, I'm sorry,the Sunday school, they were
barely at the Bible study.
Ask me if they taught a lesson.
(14:43):
Sometimes we would have to comeget up at 6 a.m.
Um, Quincy would have to teachand then he would have to
preach.
Sometimes I would have to teachand then I would have to preach.
I don't I didn't do that asoften because that was just too
much for me.
Quincy's more professional thanme.
He can do that.
I I just um I'm I just cannot.
That's just not, I didn't have Ididn't build up my stamina then
(15:03):
in that way.
So I if I ever did it, it wasprobably like one time, but more
so for Quincy, we would have toteach, and then he would have to
go preach.
And then if I if I even if Ididn't preach, I would have to
pray, I would have to sit withpeople.
I mean, we were doing so much,and ask me what the elders were
doing.
Oh, nothing.
So when I had to sit there andbe falsely accused of stealing
(15:24):
members, stealing members to gowhere?
Because who was starting thechurch?
Not me, not my husband.
That was something we neverwanted to do because we know how
much these churches aren'thelping anybody.
So where was I stealing members?
Who was I pushing out?
I asked for specific names.
Who, what families have Ioffended and hurt?
(15:46):
What people have I offended andhurt so bad?
Because if I really did that,then I need to go to them and
make amends and correction.
If I, as a leader in thischurch, offended someone, if I
as a leader in this church havecaused people to leave, then I
need to correct that.
I was never told who it was.
(16:06):
The one family that wasmentioned happens to be a family
that we are still friends withto this day.
But because they had left beforeus and they didn't get to talk
to a lot of people before theyleft, um, the leaders of the
church were able to positionthat and use that um to their
advantage.
And I don't think they saidtheir name, but I mean, it's
(16:27):
pretty obvious, right?
Uh, well, I shouldn't say that,but um, they definitely alluded
to the fact that that was thefamily that we um caused to
leave.
And that family, as I mentioned,we were still friends with.
So when I was sitting there,right, and I and we're being
falsely accused of all of thesecrazy things that just didn't
(16:48):
make sense when our realproblems were with the elders.
Our real problem was with thepastor, our real problem was
with the fact that the churchwas no longer functioning as a
church and that we felt as ifthe Holy Spirit was no longer
operating in that space.
Those were our real problems.
Asked me if they cared aboutthose things.
Ask me if they cared aboutfollowing scripture and making
(17:10):
sure that their elders werepreachers and teachers in the
pulpit carrying theirresponsibility.
Ask me if they said or weretrying to hold those elders
accountable to being just umshepherds over the people
because that's what they weresupposed to be.
The elders were the ones thatwere supposed to be caring for
the people, knowing the people'sstruggles.
(17:30):
But you know what?
As I sat there, I was sooffended and I was pissed.
You know why?
Because I was sitting there,literally thinking and seeing
people's faces, hearing theirstories, hearing the very things
that people just asked me forprayer for, remembering the text
messages I would get throughoutthe week of marriages that were
(17:51):
on the verge of divorce, of menstruggling with um sexual
adversions of girls in thatchurch who were struggling with
anxiety and depression, of myown friends who were going
through emotional and spiritualturmoil.
And as I sat there, I couldn'tbelieve that out of all the
(18:12):
things going on in that church,out of everything that needed to
be addressed and fixed and andand nurtured, that they would
sit in my face and tell me thatI was still trying to steal
members, that I was causingdivision and drama.
(18:33):
Yeah, it was crazy.
But that's when I realized thissystem isn't about truth, it's
about control.
And we have to address the factthat it's not as if these
predators are breaking the law.
Now we know that some do, right?
Because there's money, money, Iwas gonna say money laundering,
but I don't know that I know ifa church was money laundering.
(18:55):
But I wouldn't be surprised.
But I was really mentioned, Iwas really trying to say there's
fraud for sure.
I 100% know of churches that dofraud or have done fraud, I
should say.
Um, there's fraud.
There is sexual abuse thathappens with whether it's
somebody of age or somebodyyounger.
(19:16):
Um there is physical abuse thathas happened.
So we do know that they can andthey do break the law.
But we know the obvious side,but I'm talking today about how
it's not always so obvious.
And so these predators aren'talways breaking the law or doing
something obviously wrong.
(19:37):
But no, the most dangerous ones,they use the very thing that
should bring life scripture,faith, and obedience to keep
people under control.
Those same people that sat theretrying to accuse us of all of
these things, they were tryingto use scripture that they
didn't even understand, thatthey weren't even interpreting
right on us.
(19:58):
I mean, think about it.
Like, real, you're really tryingto use scripture and you don't
even read your Bible for real.
You you've never even gone as apastor, as a leader, we're
talking about spiritual leaders.
We're not talking about laypeople, right?
We're talking about these peoplethat are supposed to be
preachers, teachers, ministersof the faith and of the gospel
who have not gone past theBible, who have not read and
really studied the meaning ofthe very verses that they quote.
(20:21):
But they still will try toweaponize it and use it against
you.
Honey, they had the, they hadthey had the right one that day.
Because none of that phased me.
No scripture that came out ofanyone's mouth that day had any
type of manipulation or phase onme because I actually know what
the scriptures mean.
Ironically enough, I've neverbeen a memorizer.
(20:45):
Like I'm not that person thatcan just quote a scripture or
throw a scripture out at you.
Um, I will know the context, Iwill know like the verse and the
and the and the chapter, but Iyeah, um yeah, I just think it's
funny when people quotescripture, right?
(21:06):
But they really don't know whatthey're saying.
And I also understand that noteveryone is like me in a
position where you've studiedand you know your theology.
In fact, I would say that manychurches don't even encourage
you to go deeper, and that's aproblem in and of itself.
The fact that they don'tencourage you to go any deeper.
(21:30):
But I want it, I want to saythat right now because I don't
want you all to feel like, well,dang, I don't know scripture
that well.
So when someone's saying it tome, how do I know?
Like that's the point of thisepisode is and and really the
lesson that you should take fromthis is just because someone
quotes a scripture at you, don'tlet it manipulate you, control
(21:52):
you, or coerce you into doingsomething that doesn't feel
right.
Take whatever scripture they'resaying to you.
Look it up, okay?
Look it up and see what is themeaning of this, what was the
story, and you'll you'll oftenfind that it has no connection
or correlation with what theywere trying to tell you.
And that's what this episode isit's a wake-up call.
(22:15):
It's trying to pull some of youall who have been pushed out and
hurt by church back in, not tochurch, but to God.
But that was a little tangent.
I got up on a little side note.
But but again, this is howspiritual abuse works.
It's subtle, it's deceptive.
And by the time you recognizeit, it's already taken hold.
(22:38):
I didn't recognize that I wasspiritually abused, as I've
already said.
I didn't recognize that I was ina spiritually abusive
environment or that I wasspiritually abused until I read
that book that I told you allabout.
So let's really look at howspiritual abuse operates.
Spiritual abuse disguises itselfas discipline, correction, or
faithfulness.
And how they keep you and I, howthey've kept us in control, is
(23:02):
that they use scriptures tosilence you.
Touch not my anointed.
Um, number two, they confusespirituality with control.
So they tell you you have to beobedient to the man, to the
woman of God.
Number three, they theyweaponize loyalty.
(23:22):
Have you heard after all I'vedone for you, after all this
church has done for you, afterhow we've been here for you, I
need you.
You've been so faithful.
And number four, they keep youbusy so you don't ask questions.
And of course, this list is notexhausted by any means.
This is just some main ways thatagain can look like they're good
(23:46):
things on the surface, butthey're really tactics and tools
to keep you uh in their control.
That last one really hits, theykeep you keep you busy so you
don't ask questions.
Because I know a lot ofbusybodies in the church.
I know a lot of people that arejust doing, doing, doing, doing,
doing, and they're so busy theycan't see the signs.
(24:08):
And when someone tries to pointit out to them, they're so
confused by what they're tryingto say.
Because they've been so busythat they haven't really been
paying attention to the littledetails.
Maybe they felt it once or twiceor here and there, but they just
try to keep going.
And for years, that was me too.
I ignored the red flags becauseI was taught that church was the
(24:29):
place to do God's work.
I also at one point lovedchurch.
But I felt like this was theonly place that I could preach
and teach and really use mygifts and be me.
My identity was so deeplyconnected to church.
Even when I felt that God wascalling me away, even when I
(24:51):
felt as if I heard and had thisfeeling of God telling me that I
was not called to the church, Iwrestled with it because it went
against everything I was told.
It went against everything thatI was told.
It went against the things thatI believed.
I didn't think that you could bea Christian and not go to
(25:12):
church.
I I remember when Quincy'sfriends, uh he has a darn, he
has some old friends that umstopped going to church and they
were telling Quincy how good itwas on that side and how much
they felt, how much how freethey felt.
And I remember thinking, how canthey still be a Christian and
not go to church?
And this isn't like this is justprobably within the past six,
five, so years.
(25:33):
And I was still stuck in thatmentality of like, you know, I
obviously know you don't have totake abuse and you don't have to
deal with certain things and youneed to find the right church.
But I'm like, how could theyjust not go to church at all?
But now I realize that God wasnever calling me to stay in
abuse, He was calling me to thetruth, and the truth is not
(25:56):
always in the way that thesechurches operate, and so you
might be wondering, like I have,and like like I do even
sometimes, how do thesepredators keep getting away with
it?
Why aren't people speaking up?
Why do good, faithful peoplestay silent?
(26:17):
Even me in many ways.
I haven't exposed people'ssecrets or called some of these
people out by name.
I've not decided to put a bigwarning label out there.
But silence isn't alwaysagreement.
Sometimes it's about fear,confusion, or simply not knowing
(26:38):
what to do.
And I definitely lived in fearfor a long time.
But I'm learning and acceptingthat silence isn't neutral.
If you see abuse and saynothing, you are helping it
continue.
And so there's ways that you cando it, right?
There are ways that certainpeople do it where like church,
(27:00):
uh like the book Churches ThatAbuse, where they call out the
pastors and the churches byname.
There are those modern-dayYouTubers, you know, I follow
one all things theology, wherethey call out these preachers by
name and face, and they theytake their actual sermons and
point out to you where the uhcontradictions lie, where the
(27:23):
problems lie, why it'smanipulative, deceptive, and
just peer against scripture.
But then there's people like me,where I really don't want to
coin myself as the person who isdropping names and secrets and
exposing people's stuff.
But I will not be silenced.
I will use this podcast as a wayfor my voice to be heard because
(27:48):
it's been pushed aside too much.
But oftentimes, as we were aswe're talking about, why do good
people stay silent?
For many reasons.
Some being that they fear losingcommunity.
That was me.
I felt like my community ishere.
I want to stay, I want to fight,I want to be a part no matter
(28:08):
how much of abuse or how much Ihave to take.
I think I probably wouldn't havecoined, I didn't coin this last
church situation as abuse, but Iknew that I was taking some
stuff.
And I wanted to stay because Ihad built a community for
several years there, and I lovedthose people.
Some people also stay silentbecause they think that God's
gonna handle it, God's gonnatake care of it, not realizing
(28:32):
that like God put us here for areason, right?
Like to use our voices.
Okay, okay, okay.
Um, also not wanting to believethat their leader could be a
predator.
You really just don't want tohave to look and see it that
way.
And I can raise my hand and saythat was me too.
When we left our church,actually, almost every church
that I've left for differentreasons, right?
(28:53):
Now I'm not all, I've not leftevery church because it was bad.
I left one church because Imoved.
Um, I left another because I,again, I moved.
Like I lived in Atlanta, I didchapel in Atlanta.
Um, I joined a church that Ididn't find was a good fit.
So I ended up leaving there forthose reasons.
But then I moved to LA.
(29:14):
Um, I went to like Hill SongChurch out there, but then I
became a member of One Church.
And at the time I enjoyed OneChurch, even though I see a lot
of the problematic things of itnow.
Um, at the time it definitelygave me an emotional high or
like an emotional security thatI needed because I was also in a
(29:36):
toxic relationship.
And so I really was looking forGod to affirm that relationship,
and I was looking for God togive me security in that
relationship, and I sought thatthrough attending this church,
and that's an error on my part,and so that church became a big
part of my comfort in thatseason.
Um, but I I left that churchbecause I moved, not because I
(29:58):
saw the the the red flags, um,but I see them now, right?
In retrospection.
Um, but I'm just saying not tosay I haven't left all churches
because of something bad.
But when we when I have left thechurches, especially the last
two, where I actually built acommunity, people straight up
(30:19):
stopped speaking to us.
It's as if we were wiped off theplanet.
Like even at the last church,where things were said and and
made to be about what we did orwhat we didn't do, um, fewer
people reached out.
And honestly, the people who didreach out were like not the
people I was the most connectedto.
(30:39):
And even though certain peoplewere like, oh, I didn't believe
it, or oh, I wrote it off, theystill didn't call to fact check.
They still didn't call to seelike and hear our side of the
story.
They just thought, oh, theygoing through, they they
unrepentant and in sin, and theythey we just gonna leave them
alone or whatever they convincethemselves of.
And I remember thinking, is thisa church or a gang?
(31:04):
Like it's one of my favoritesayings to say now that churches
are like many gangs.
Because the second you're out,you're an enemy.
It's as if we're not allChristian.
It's as if we all don't believein the same God.
That like once I can't, once Idon't attend your church any
longer, we can't hang out, wecan't talk, we can't go to
(31:25):
lunch, I can't call and see howyou're doing, even though I've
kept relationships withco-workers when I left my job,
as I know many who have done.
When you become a friend withsomeone on your job and you
leave that job, you stillmaintain that friendship a lot
of times, especially dependingon how solid it is.
Right?
(31:46):
But when you leave a church, ohno, we can't sit with you no
more.
You're not one of us any longer.
So, what happens when youfinally see the truth?
When you realize that the churchyou once trusted wasn't what you
thought it was, when you wake upto the fact that you were
(32:06):
spiritually abused, because thehardest part of all of this
isn't just leaving, it's whatcomes after.
And that's really where Istruggled.
I felt secure in my decision toleave, though, as hard as it
was, and I'm speakingspecifically to the last church
where I dedicated the most of mytime.
(32:28):
I showed up the best I could.
I went in knowing that I didn'twant to do any type of ministry,
went against that feelingbecause I was, you know, pumped
and primed and believed in, andyou know, and I and I do believe
that I'm strongly gifted and Ibring something, and I know that
I brought something different,right, to the church, especially
knowing that it's not myintention to abuse and because
(32:50):
of my background with um thechurches that I grew up in and
not wanting to manipulate andhurt people.
As I've said, I sat among them,I've walked among them.
I have pastors, preachers,teachers, apostles, or not
apostles in real life, justpeople that deem themselves
that, um, but prophets,evangelists, all these people
just within my own family onboth sides, my mom and my dad's
side.
So I've sat with them, as Imentioned earlier.
(33:11):
I've been around them.
I know what that's like.
I know the conversations thatthey have when they step off the
pulpit.
I know how much they're in itfor the money or the fame or the
glory.
And me going into my churchesand doing leadership and
preaching and teaching andrunning the youth ministry,
being a youth pastor, um,running the women's ministry, I
always kept that in mind.
(33:32):
I was always very careful.
I was even very careful in mysermons with how I talked and
how I defined things because Ididn't want to manipulate or
even accidentally manipulateabuse people or abuse people.
So I was secure in my decisionto leave because I knew that I
no longer was in that space offreedom.
(33:54):
I was, I was no longer in thatspace where um we seen eye to
eye anymore.
And it felt like it was going tobe more of a fight than it was
going to be a cohesiveenvironment for us to get along,
us being my husband and I withthe elders and the leadership of
that church.
And so it wasn't hard to makethat decision, but it was so
hard to deal with the aftermath.
(34:16):
Even after you recognize thatyou've been in a spiritually
abusive environment or a toxicchurch, you have grief.
It feels like losing family.
You might feel lost,disconnected, or guilty.
You may feel angry and confused,and that's okay too.
I've definitely gone through allof that emotional roller
(34:40):
coaster, being upset with God.
Like, God, you knew I didn'twant to do ministry.
You knew I didn't want to comeinto this church, you and and do
anything and get close to thesepeople.
I wanted to keep my guard up.
Why did my guard get let down?
Why was this the place where Ifelt the most comfortable and
the most vulnerable to be myselfjust for it to backfire and for
(35:00):
me to be accused, and for us,I'm gonna put my husband in this
too, because it wasn't just me,but for us to be accused of the
most outlandish of things, likethey couldn't even come up with
some real stuff.
But the most outlandish ofthings, I felt very angry, very
hurt, very confused, and notjust by those people, but but by
God too.
But I had to remember somethingthat I told myself that being a
(35:24):
believer of God is not the sameas being a believer of people.
I had to separate God from theinstitution.
That just because a church wastoxic doesn't mean that God is.
Jesus flipped the tables overreligious corruption.
He was never about protectingthe false institutions.
(35:45):
I had to remind myself of thatstory about Jesus flipping those
tables because a lot of peoplehave taken that and turned it
into Jesus being this politicaladvocate and this radical
political, you know, guy forfeminism and racism and all of
these things.
And yet they themselves, eventhe ones fighting for the
political side of things and thepronouns and all these things,
(36:07):
even they miss the spiritualabuse.
And even in those spaces, theyare spiritually abusing people
because it's all about theiragenda.
But if we really go back to thatstory about Jesus flipping
tables, he saw the corruption.
He saw the religious leaderscharging people more so that
they could gain more.
(36:28):
He saw people, he saw thosepeople using the the people's
sacrifices and the things thatthey were bringing, their last
and and what they had.
He saw them using theirsacrifices to make profit.
(36:51):
They made their fame andpersonal gain, whatever it is, a
priority over spiritual health.
They made the gain of financesand manipulation and abuse.
They made this power bigger andmore important than actually
sending people and helpingpeople and directing people
towards God.
(37:13):
And so the bigger meaning thanwhat we've been told about Jesus
flipping the tables, becauseit's not even a scripture where
we can use it and say, Yeah, yousee, Jesus was flipping them
tables, that means I can cussyou out and be angry.
That's not what that's abouteither.
It was righteous anger becausehe saw what the religious
leaders were doing.
It was a moment for us torealize that he didn't just use
(37:33):
his words, but he took action.
This wasn't just about sellingdoves and exchanging money, it
was about the exploitation offaith.
The leaders allowed thecorruption because it benefited
them financially and maintainedtheir power over the people.
But Jesus was making it clearthat God's house isn't a place
for manipulation, abuse, orprofit.
(37:54):
It's a place of worship andtruth.
In fact, scripture literallysays worship him in spirit and
in truth.
So Jesus wasn't about protectingfalse institutions, and that's
where I had to separate God fromthe institution that, oh my
goodness, God, it wasn't youtrying to hurt me.
It wasn't you trying to takeaway my so-called family, it
(38:16):
wasn't you trying to push meinto something and then just
pull it out from under me.
It wasn't you trying to send medown this emotional spiral.
It was actually you protectingme.
It was actually you taking theblinders off my eyes once and
for all of the spiritual abusethat is plaguing the churches.
(38:38):
Oh my goodness, God, it was youreminding me of how you had told
me years ago that I was notcalled or meant for the church.
It was you using me to get outfrom under this manipulation,
this abuse of power to get outof this corrupt system so that I
could use my voice on thispodcast and wherever else I may
(38:58):
go, and conversations whenpeople call my phone and text
messages when people text me andDMs when people DM me.
You have pushed me out so that Ican use my voice in my own space
and in my own way to help thevery people that are still being
abused and manipulated by thesesystems.
Oh my goodness, God, it was youtaking back the power where
(39:21):
people thought they had powerover me because they put me in
their pulpit or on theirplatform.
But it was you actually givingme the power back to create my
own platform that no one cantake away from me or tell me
what I can or cannot say, or beoffended that I've said
something, or be offended at thefact that I'm talking about
character and seeking God inbetter ways and spiritual legacy
(39:44):
and the things that reallymatter as a Christian.
That I didn't lose power, Igained power.
That I didn't lose purpose, Igained purpose, and that became
a pivotal part of my healingjourney.
Shifting my mindset about how Isee God and how I see the
(40:08):
church.
I don't sit here as a person whobelieves that the church
functions the way that it is.
I don't believe that you have tobe a Christian to go to church.
And I sorry, I don't believethat you have to, in order to be
a Christian, you have to go tochurch.
I also don't believe that Godhas called us to church the way
(40:29):
that we are doing it now, theway we dress, the way we get
offering, the programs, the lackof, I mean, come on, we're not
even teaching the Bible.
How is it that so many of thesechurches believe that the Bible
is perfect and the Bible isinherent and the Bible is, you
know, all that God breathed, andthat these are God's word,
words, and yet they don't evenfollow them.
(40:51):
And again, it's not aboutmemorization, but they don't
even follow the very scripturesthat they're spewing out and
preaching.
You guys can think of theexamples, the contradictions in
people's lives.
Are they producing fruits of thespirit?
Are they worshiping God inspirit and in truth?
Where is the truth in thechurches?
When y'all find it, please letme know.
(41:13):
This was a pivotal part of myhealing, shifting my mindset to
not see that God and theinstitution are the same.
But if we're being honest, itfeels that way because so many
pastors and preachers aretelling you that God told them.
I just heard God say, God toldme, He said this, and and I'm
(41:35):
gonna be honest with y'all, I'mgonna I'm gonna let I'm gonna
let y'all in on a secret forthose who are being manipulated
by this kind of by this kind oflanguage.
They ain't hearing nothing butthemselves.
In fact, some of these peoplemay be hearing from the devil,
they think that they're audiblyhearing from God.
No, the things that these peoplesay, I I I have I literally
(41:57):
heard a pastor say that God toldhim that everyone in his
congregation was gonna get threemansions.
A year went by.
Maybe everybody in that churchdidn't have no three mansions.
Like, if you listen to thethings that these people are
claiming that God told them,it's all about money, fame,
(42:18):
power.
It's all about you.
It's all about everythinghappening here.
It's not about Jesus, it's notabout loving your neighbor, it's
not about turning the cheek,it's not about flipping the
tables in righteous anger, it'snot about calling out spiritual
abuse, it's not about the truth.
It's not these places keep usingthese cohesion tactics to make
(42:44):
us think that God and theinstitution and that God and the
church and that God and thepastor and that God and the
evangelist and that God and theminister are the same.
And I'm sorry they are not.
The same way that you and I havethe free will to choose to do
this, you know, renovating workis the same way that other
(43:06):
people have the free will toabuse, manipulate, and hurt
other people.
And so it is possible thatwithin these churches abuse can
occur.
But that is why these leadershave to and should take their
position so seriously, becauseyou have some of the most
(43:32):
vulnerable and desperate peoplein these audiences who deeply
want to root their faith insomething real.
Because for many of us, ourfaith is the center of our
lives, our faith is the core ofus.
If we were to lose that, wewouldn't know what to do or
where to go.
(43:53):
So faith is instrumental, andthat's why I wanted to start
this season out on this topicbecause no matter what your
faith is.
Is faith plays such a big rolein how we think and how we
believe, how we live, how wetalk, how we dress, and how we
act.
And many of us are living basedoff of a false idea.
Many of us are acting based offof false falsities.
(44:17):
We're not living in the truth.
We're not really free.
These churches are keeping us inthe very chains that Jesus was
said to have freed us from.
They are trying to keep us boundagain by their word, bound by
loyalty to them, bound bykeeping their secrets, bound by
staying silent, bound by notasking questions.
(44:41):
When Jesus is said to have setus free, why would he set us
free just for us to be to walkback in a church that's supposed
to be built on his name and bechained again?
Why?
He wouldn't.
He didn't, and he doesn't.
(45:05):
You have to give yourselfpermission to deconstruct and
relearn faith without fear.
You have to find safe spaces,whether that's trusted friends
or therapy or online communitiesor even just this podcast with
me and you where we talk.
(45:25):
Because I know what it's like tofeel like you're the only one
that sees the problem.
I know what it feels like tospeak up and be pushed out and
to be called all kinds ofthings, not just, I mean, over
the course of time, child.
I started really waking up backin high school, and when I tried
(45:46):
to ask questions about our faithand what we believe in, I was
slapped down and for years wentthrough some rest so much
turmoil with that.
So if you feel alone, if youdon't know where to start,
please email me, DM me, sign upfor the email list, let's talk.
(46:10):
Like you have to find those safespaces.
And one of my biggest pieces ofadvice is do not feel rushed to
find a new church.
Focus on healing first.
Oh, y'all.
I could hear the people tellingme that they wouldn't leave the
(46:31):
church that they feel like ispushing them out, or they feel
like it's not treating themwell, or they see the signs in.
They say, I can't leave yetbecause I haven't found
somewhere new, or because Goddidn't tell me to leave yet.
So they stay in an abusivesystem.
But those people have yet to askthemselves, do you think this is
(46:52):
really what God called you to?
To being abused and manipulatedand used?
Do you think this is reallywhere God wants you in a system
of toxicity and manipulation andcontrol?
Is that what his scriptures havetold you to be in?
To be back bound in chains fromthe very chains that he has
already freed you from?
I don't think so.
And so many people stay in theseabusive churches because they're
(47:13):
like, oh, I need to find thechurch, or they leave one toxic
church and dump it to anothertoxic church because they have
yet to realize the spiritualabuse that plagues these spaces.
They've yet to identify it.
They've yet to sit down andfocus on healing first.
And in that healing process,seeing all the areas in which
they were abused, so that youcan see the signs, so that you
(47:38):
can stop repeating the cycle.
So now that we've exposed it,what do we do next?
When you do come to therealization that you've been
spiritually abused, when you dorealize that you've been in a
toxic environment, how do wemove forward?
And how do we make sure thatthis cycle doesn't keep
repeating itself?
Because if we truly care aboutthe gospel, if we truly care
(48:02):
about justice and truth, then wecan't afford to stay silent
anymore.
Here's my final wake-up call.
If your church is more focusedon protecting its reputation
than protecting its people, it'snot a church, it's a business.
If calling out evil makes youdivisive, then what do we call
(48:23):
the person actually committingthe evil?
If you've been hurt by thechurch, hear me.
Jesus still loves you.
If you feel rejected by theplace that was supposed to love
you, you were not alone.
If people told you that you hadto stay in the church in order
to serve God, that was a lie.
(48:46):
The people who tried to silenceme thought they were taking my
voice away, but they actuallypropelled me into it.
And I will not be quiet.
And if you've been waiting forpermission to call it what it
is, here it is.
For too long, predators in thepulpit have hidden behind
scripture.
They have twisted faith into aweapon, silenced the abused, and
(49:08):
convinced people that obedienceto them is obedience to God.
But let me tell you something.
Real obedience to God looksnothing like submission to a
corrupt leader.
Jesus himself didn't bow to thereligious elite.
He called them snakes,hypocrites, whitewashed tombs,
beautiful on the outside butfull of death on the inside.
(49:31):
He didn't protect their image,he exposed their rot.
And yet somehow we've beenconvinced that questioning
leadership is rebellion, thatcalling out spiritual abuse is
divisive, that speaking up meanswe are the problem.
No.
The problem is the silence.
The problem is the cover-ups.
The problem is the people whosee the evil and do nothing.
(49:52):
The time for being quiet isover.
You don't owe your loyalty to acorrupt system.
You don't owe your silence to apredator in the pulpit.
You don't owe your faith to aplace that manipulates,
controls, and profits off yourdevotion.
What you owe is this (50:08):
your own healing, your own freedom, your
own ability to stand in truthand walk away from the chains
that were disguised as faith.
So I'll say it again.
If calling out evil makes youdivisive, then what do we call
the person actually committingthe evil?
(50:29):
And if Jesus himself flipped thetables over religious
corruption, then maybe it's timewe start flipping some tables
too.
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