April 15, 2026 • 26 mins
The job can send you to the hardest places on earth, then expect you to come home and act like nothing followed you back.
We talk with Kemmi Sadler, a retired supervisory special agent from the U.S. State Department’s Diplomatic Security Service, about what two decades of protective missions, investigations, and overseas tours can do to your inner life. From her early years in local law enforcement to contracting overseas after 9/11 and then serving across posts like Iraq, Afghanistan, El Salvador, Mexico, and Washington, DC, Kemi lays out the real-world stressors that build over time: constant moves, family complications, and the relentless requirement to stay sharp.
One story becomes a turning point, opening the door to survivor’s guilt and the kind of grief that can linger for years when it never gets fully processed. We also dig into a barrier so many first responders recognize instantly: the fear that counseling could trigger “fitness for duty” questions or jeopardize a security clearance. When your identity is built around being the tough one, asking for help can feel like risking everything. We compare peer support, resilience training, and the idea of routine mental health wellness visits that work like a checkup rather than a crisis response.
We close with the shock of retirement and why turning in credentials can feel like losing membership in a world that once gave you status, safety, and a clear sense of self. If you care about first responder mental health, trauma recovery, and the transition out of service, this conversation will stay with you.
Subscribe, share this with someone who needs it, and leave a review so more first responders can find these stories.
Here is how to reach Kemmi:
www.klsadler.com
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kemmisadler/
https://www.facebook.com/klsadler
https://www.instagram.com/klsadler_/
www.nonasway.com
https://www.facebook.com/NonaTheWonderDog/
https://www.instagram.com/nonas_way_/
We are a first responder owned company looking to get first responders in the best mental shape.
Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:01):
Welcome to Resilience Development in Action
with Steve Bisson.
This is the podcast dedicated tofirst responder mental health,
helping police, fire, EMS,dispatchers, and paramedics
create better growthenvironments for themselves and
their teams.
Let's get started.
SPEAKER_00 (00:29):
Well, hi everyone, and welcome to episode 248.
If you haven't listened toepisode 247, it is the returning
mental men.
We talked about a lot of goodstuff in regards to the stress
of the work and environmentstress environmental stressors
at home that goes with that.
But for episode 428, I'm justexcited because I I, you know,
you meet someone, you getsomeone paperwork or what have
(00:52):
you through an email.
I'm like, wow, this is theperson that's perfect for this
podcast.
So when I got Kemi Sadler's onepager, as they call it in our
industry, I was like, oh mygosh, she's perfect for this
show.
So as you know, when you'relistening to my show, I don't
pretend I know people I don'tknow, but I certainly was
excited to have her on.
So I I definitely believe intelling you that.
(01:13):
But Kemi, welcome to ResilienceDevelopment in Action.
SPEAKER_02 (01:17):
Uh thank you.
Thanks so much for having me on.
SPEAKER_00 (01:19):
Uh you know, like I'm nothing like a retired
supervisor supervisory specialagent in the US department's uh
diplomatic security service.
That's a mouthful in itself, butI got what it means.
You work for the your diplomaticservice uh service security for
people.
And I know that you're not inthe same time zone as me.
(01:40):
So thank you for giving me halfyour afternoon.
I I'm recording in the morningwhere I'm at.
But I guess, you know, maybe itwould be good for you to
introduce yourself a little bitto the audience, tell us about
yourself.
SPEAKER_02 (01:52):
Sure.
Well, I've retired fromdiplomatic security service in
April of 2024 after just over 20years.
DS is the law enforcement arm ofthe State Department.
So it's, you know, primaryresponsibilities are dignitary
protection as well as afull-time detail on the U.S.
(02:12):
Secretary of State.
And then for the investigativeside of the house, it's U.S.
travel documents, passports,visas, investigations into
identity theft and things ofthat nature.
Before becoming federal agentwith the U.S.
State Department, I worked for acouple of years as a civilian
contractor for Department ofDefense in Kuwait, just after
(02:34):
9-11.
And working backwards in time onSeptember 10th, 2001 was my last
day with the St.
Augustine Police Department,where I had spent about five
years between 911 dispatched andthen transferring to the road as
the police officer with St.
Augustine.
So all told I did about 26years, excuse me, sworn law
(02:55):
enforcement.
I grew up in a small town in theMidwest.
So Midwest Girl, St.
Genevieve, Missouri.
It's the oldest town west of theMississippi, it's about an hour
south of St.
Louis.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (03:09):
Well, you know, five years a police officer, and on
September 10th, you're youretire, you leave, or you go,
you are still in service, andthen 9-11 occurs, and you're
like, oh my God, I gotta dosomething.
SPEAKER_02 (03:20):
I had already taken the contract with the Department
of Defense to go to Kuwait.
So I had I had resigned, andSeptember 10th just happened to
be my last day.
And on 9-11, I was puttingeverything in my house to put
into a storage unit to moveoverseas to Kuwait when all of
the events of that day startedto unfold and my phone started
to ring.
(03:41):
And one of the calls was fromthe chief of police offering me
my job back.
You know, people over like,you're not still going to the
Middle East, are you?
So it seems all of a sudden thatseems like a bad idea.
But you know, I had signed thecontract and I decided to go
ahead and and see that through.
So I spent about two years inKuwait, which is where I learned
about the diplomatic securityservice.
SPEAKER_00 (04:05):
Oh, okay.
So that by being there, you kindof like learn about these
services, the diplomaticservices.
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (04:11):
I knew somebody that go ahead.
Sorry, I knew somebody that wentto the security briefings at the
embassy and he told me about it.
And he said, you know, this isbecause the contract worked for
me was I was just kind oflooking for, you know, something
different and a little bit oftravel.
And but I wanted to get backinto something that was more of
a career than contracting.
(04:33):
And my friend knew that and hehe went to these meetings at the
embassy, and he's like, Youshould look into this.
It's law enforcement and travel.
It seems like it would be a goodfit for you.
And it just so happened that DSwas hiring at the time that I
learned about it.
So I jumped through some hoopsto get everything ready to
submit that application packageand got on with with DS about
(04:54):
six months after that.
SPEAKER_00 (04:56):
But and what made you like you you did that for
you said what 20 years, 22years?
SPEAKER_02 (05:03):
Yeah, 20 years and four months.
SPEAKER_00 (05:05):
Okay.
20 years of that.
You gotta really like it to dothat for that long.
SPEAKER_02 (05:10):
I loved it.
I you know, DS is the best keptsecret in federal law
enforcement.
It's one of the smaller federalagencies, and it's similar to
the military in the sense thatthe assignments are short term
and depending on the threatlevel.
So every year to two years,three years being the most, the
(05:31):
longest assignment, you canextend sometimes for a fourth
year, but you bet on assignmentsand you move around.
So my tours took me all over theworld.
I did a year in Iraq, a year inAfghanistan, tours in El
Salvador and Mexico, and thendomestic tours in Washington,
DC, St.
Louis and Orlando.
SPEAKER_00 (05:51):
Wow, you went to all the nice places that are nice
and safe.
That's great.
SPEAKER_02 (05:55):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (05:57):
Well, I'm all the garden spots.
I know.
I was gonna like, oh, I wentfrom you said what, Kuwait to
Iraq to Afghanistan.
I'm like, geez, that's a greatplace to be in the mid-2000s.
SPEAKER_02 (06:09):
Yeah, Iraq.
I was there that Iraq was mysecond tour.
I was there in 06 and 07.
So before we had moved into anactual embassy, and the embassy
was located inside one ofSaddam's former palaces.
SPEAKER_00 (06:22):
Oh wow.
SPEAKER_02 (06:23):
The tour in Afghanistan was later in my
career in 2017, 2018, so about ayear before that all kind of
went to shit.
SPEAKER_00 (06:33):
Yeah.
Afghanistan is a veryfascinating place, if you ask
me.
SPEAKER_02 (06:38):
But oh yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (06:39):
Very interesting people.
I think that they've been tryingto be taken over since the
Ottoman Empire, and somehow theystill stand up and do their
thing, for better or for worse,unfortunately.
Right.
So, you know, you do all thesethings and you're traveling a
lot.
How do you get a family goingwhen you're traveling so much?
SPEAKER_02 (07:01):
It's not easy.
It's a very my I mean, I don'tknow statistically if the
divorce rate is higher in theForeign Service than other
segments of law enforcement orsociety, but it's not the the
easiest career, probably to havea family.
The State Department's prettygood about trying to accommodate
people with families and kids,and you know, but it adds layers
(07:24):
and layers of complicationbecause then you have kids in
international schools, and somecountries have more schools
available than others, and somecountries they're safer for
families than others, and somecountries you can't even take
your family on an assignment,whereas others you can.
So I'm at my current spouseactually in El Salvador.
And when you when both of thepeople in the marriage are
(07:47):
Department of State employees,then that adds a layer of
complication because then youhave to find jobs at the same
place and time in the samecountry.
So that that also that also addsyou know some some
complications.
So we went from El Salvador toWashington, DC, Afghanistan
together, then Mexico, and Ifinished up my career in in
(08:11):
Florida.
And then I retired and she wasable to get a job in in Europe.
So, you know, I joke.
I had to, in order for me to geta posting in Europe, I just had
to retire.
SPEAKER_00 (08:21):
Yeah, well, that Florida to Europe, it's almost
like you know, rolls off yourthung, tongue, really, uh if you
ask me.
SPEAKER_02 (08:28):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (08:29):
And then when I already joked around earlier, I
said the danger spots.
You went to Florida, good, goodfor you.
I'm joking for people in Floridalistening.
I'm making a joke, I'm pickingon you.
I get it, but I'm just pickingon you.
So you do this for about 20years.
I mean, there's gotta be likesome stressors besides the
family.
I brought up the family, butthere's gotta be other stressors
(08:50):
that play a factor for thatlong.
I mean, it's great to work forthe Department of State, but I
can see where it can also bevery hard to push through some
of the shit you gotta deal with.
SPEAKER_02 (09:00):
Yeah, I think that's a fair, I think that's a fair
statement.
And I think it's something thatyou don't always recognize in
the moment or while or whileyou're pushing through it.
You know, now that I've beenretired for a couple of years
and been on this kind of healingjourney, it's much easier to
look back retrospectively andsee how trauma was building up
(09:24):
and how it how it impacted meover the years, but in in the
moment, I don't know that Ialways recognized it for what it
was.
The one exception to that was in2006 when I was in Iraq, there
was a woman that worked, anIraqi woman that worked at the
embassy with us.
I was her direct supervisor.
(09:45):
She was an older woman on hersecond career.
And she and her husband, whoalso worked at the embassy, were
out in town running running someerrands.
They went to the bank.
And when they came out of thebank, some group of individuals
kidnapped her husband and heldhim for ransom, and she
(10:06):
negotiated a ransom for him overthe coming weeks and ultimately
went to pay that ransom.
And when she did, she was alsokidnapped and killed.
SPEAKER_00 (10:14):
And the way I can't go into details about exactly
just so you know, I'll neverpush you to talk about stuff you
don't want to.
SPEAKER_02 (10:24):
Well, it's it's that I you know, some of it I I
can't.
SPEAKER_00 (10:27):
No, no, that I will never do that.
I know I know your job, so I'mnot pushing it.
But protected by a HIPAA, youknow what I mean?
SPEAKER_02 (10:35):
I right.
Suffice it to say, I I carriedsome survivor's guilt around
that.
I felt that I should have beenable to talk around of going to
pay the ransom or should havebeen able to do more to protect
her when she went.
And it weighed on me veryheavily.
And I I did talk to somebody onetime, a counselor, and just I
(10:56):
mean, completely had an absolutebreakdown in that session.
And and that was the first timeI ever heard the term survivor's
guilt was in that in thatsession with somebody.
And I was like, okay, well, nowit has a name, now I know what
it is that's been that's beenbothering me.
So I'm just gonna, you know,move on.
And when you have a job whereyour mental fitness is a
(11:22):
prerequisite for your job, andthen you add a security
clearance on top of that, youknow, this often whether it's
just perceived or whether it'sthe reality, I think there's a
reluctance in the profession toseek out any kind of counseling
because there's that fear thatit's gonna negatively impact
(11:44):
your job.
So that was the only time I evertalked to somebody about it, but
it stayed with me, and I, youknow, I knew it was something
that I still kind of struggledwith processing the that that
grief and and that loss.
SPEAKER_00 (12:01):
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(12:23):
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(12:47):
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Now, right back to the episode.
I mean, it was interestingbecause when I talk about
survivor's guilt and any type oflike grief process, my
(13:08):
conversation with most of myclients is don't square.
And what squares are in myoffice are if, but, try, could,
should, would, probably.
Because they're allconditionals.
Anyone who's read my book knowsI talk about that.
But in my particular case, eventhe hearing you, I should have
talked her out of it.
I could have done something,like all those languages.
(13:28):
I'm not, I don't want to do yourtherapy here.
I promise, I'm not pushing forany details you can't share.
I'm just saying that from myperspective, that's the hardest
part.
I think for law enforcement ingeneral, and the military, by
the way, and you know, like whenI think about your the DS, I
mean, it's half military andhalf first responder.
I mean, like, because there is amilitary value in what you're
(13:49):
talking about, and then there'sobviously the you know, the law
enforcement side that goes withthat.
You know, I think that when youtalk about this vicarious trauma
and the survivor's guilt, youknow, we try to hide it.
What I usually hear is I don'twant people to take my got my
job away, my gun away, my badgeaway, whatever.
Right.
Is that the same fears thatreally got you, or was it
(14:11):
something else?
Because there's definitely anegative impact with all this.
SPEAKER_02 (14:15):
I think it definitely crossed my mind that
counseling of counseling outsideof the umbrella of grief
counseling or marriagecounseling could trigger a
fitness for duty.
So I think that was always inthe back of my mind anytime I
thought about, you know, shouldI should should I seek out some
counseling?
(14:35):
But honestly, as my career wenton, I just I think it was more
something that you know wouldcome up for me, things would
remind me of it, or I would, youknow, become emotional.
I I I knew I knew that I hadn'thealed from it.
But at the same time, I don'tknow that I recognized that I
(15:00):
needed to, if if that makessense, or that I could, or you
know, or even that that it was apossibility that it was
something that I could processin a healthy way and leave
behind.
SPEAKER_00 (15:12):
Right.
And survivor's guilt is, youknow, to me one of the hardest
things to leave behind.
When we talk about survivor'sguilt, we usually talk about,
you know, people who grow olderthan their parents or their
siblings or what have you.
But in the military, it's a realthing, especially when I
remember guys coming back fromIraq.
I've done a lot of militarycounseling for lack of a better
(15:33):
word, but you know, I had to doit with given hour because given
hour, and I'm plugging inpurposely, I don't make any
money from it.
You don't need to documentanything, it's just saying you
see military.
And I again, this if peoplelisten to this, like, oh, thank
you.
I don't want to hear thank you.
I'm doing it because I want to.
But I remember a lot of themstruggling coming back from
Iraq.
You know, I was on convoy,something happened, or when they
(15:55):
went to Kuwait and the fires andthe oil fields.
I mean, I can talk along.
I don't want to go into too muchmilitary here, and I'm sure I
gotta be careful about notviolating information.
But at the end of the day, Ithink that that's a lot of the
stuff that happened went in themilitary service, and that's why
I was kind of like making aparallel with what you said.
(16:16):
And I think that that you know,when you talk about fitness for
duty, that's the scariest wordsyou could ever use for anyone in
your position, correct?
Yes.
Does it create like the owndoubt for yourself, or you're
afraid that people will readright through you or something
else?
SPEAKER_02 (16:32):
Well, I think it's twofold.
You know, I mean, I think partof it is the job because so much
of your identity and the thoughtof losing it is unbearable.
You know, why would I doanything that would risk the
job?
The, you know, having to walkaway and not on my own terms.
And also being seen, you know,it's a it's a field where as
(16:57):
part of that identity, you'retough, you know, you're
resilient, you don't needanything, you're the one coming
to the aid of others, not theother way around.
And so to admit that you needsome help is hard as well.
And how is that going to beviewed by my by my colleagues if
people find out that I needcounseling?
(17:19):
I like to think that that'schanging in in in the industry,
but maybe that's naive.
SPEAKER_00 (17:25):
No, I don't think it's naive, but I don't think
it's changing as fast as well.
Again, I'm a therapist, soprobably have a different
standard than most lawenforcement slash DS people.
But I think that it is changing,but I there's also this
wussification when you hearthat.
And there's, you know, I'vecertainly heard it from
different people in my job as ayou know, a therapist with first
(17:48):
responders in general.
Uh I think that it's really hardto make for me, and let me get
out of my soapbox for a second.
I try to explain to chiefs thatsomeone with a health mental
health issue is just likebreaking their leg or what have
you.
Uh and if you're able to processit out, then guess what?
You have a better officer,sergeant, whatever.
(18:09):
Yes.
But but if you don't process itout, then the person may get
retire early, may have otherissues at work, may start
getting there late, may developa substance abuse.
And then when you start blamingthem for that because they
couldn't reach out for help,there's a problem there.
I don't know if any of thatresonates, but that's certainly
what I've seen.
And some some chiefs I I want toI in Massachusetts reach out to
(18:33):
me directly.
John Doe, Jane Doe's having ahard time.
I don't want to lose them.
Can I just send them to you?
And there's other chiefs whotell me, like, oh, so you're
seeing so-and-so.
Well, you know, do you thinkthey can handle a gun anymore?
Holy fuck, I don't want to talkabout that.
So I don't know.
There's a that I think I seeboth sides.
My hope is one day we will seethat if we treat it right away
(18:56):
and we leave it in your acutestress disorder world, and sorry
to bore bore you with therapy,an acute stress disorder is in
the first six months you processout a trauma, then it doesn't
become PTSD and doesn't starteroding your confidence and work
in general.
SPEAKER_02 (19:12):
Right.
Right.
And but and you know, buildingthat into the the copious
amounts of training that we dothroughout our careers is that,
you know, resilience over theover the course of my career, I
can probably count on one handthe number of times I sat
through a training where therewas talk about just the reality
(19:32):
of these these types of things.
That the the you know, be awareof the toll that moral injury.
I never heard I never heard theterm moral injury throughout my
entire career, I don't think, oreven you know, PTSD was always
something that applied to toveterans, not not first
responders.
Like these were not ideas thatwere talked about or where
(19:55):
trainings were offered.
The only time I recall doing anykind of training on mental
health or mental healthawareness were mandatory, you
know, maybe half-day trainingsafter a tour in Iraq or
Afghanistan.
And then I did a week-long peersupport group training with VS,
(20:16):
which has a has a greatinitiative to have a network of
peers who go through a trainingand you know, put your name on a
list to be available for otheragents who may need someone to
call and talk to.
And so there's, you know, it'sdefinitely an effort to do a
peer-to-peer network to addresssome of these issues, but
(20:37):
outside of those things, therewas an and that was voluntary,
right?
So there was no formal mentalhealth processing resilience.
SPEAKER_00 (20:48):
And I think it's good to have the peers there.
I certainly am a big fan of peersupport.
I'm a big fan of wellnessvisits, because I think that
that's the other way to handleit, in my opinion.
So, you know, peer supports, youknow, you can talk to someone
who's been there, done that.
I don't know what it is to workfor DS, and now will I pretend.
But having a peer who has workedthere and understands that is
(21:10):
very important.
I think that there's always thelimitation of who are they gonna
talk to afterwards, which Ithink plays in that you talked
about moral injury oradministration betrayal.
That certainly plays a factortoo, in my opinion.
SPEAKER_02 (21:23):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (21:24):
So I think that that's why like having wellness
visits is also a great way tochange that up.
And I don't know if they dothose at the DS.
I'm sure they do make you do aphysical every year, but I'm not
quite sure they make you do awellness visit for your mental
health.
SPEAKER_02 (21:40):
No.
I don't I never did I never dida wellness visit.
Yeah, the the physicals you thethe you know, the physicals you
have to do before an overseasdeployment.
So not it not necessarily everyyear, but every few years you're
you know, you're getting checkedout to make sure you're still
able to travel worldwide and youknow have the expectation to be
healthy.
You are in the in the world, butthere was uh there's no mental
(22:04):
health side of that.
SPEAKER_00 (22:05):
And of course, you're talking to a mental
health counselor, so obviouslyI'm gonna be pushing that agenda
a little bit.
So please understand people whoare listening.
The reason why I talk about thisis not because I think
everything's trauma and I don'tthink that everyone's screwed
up.
I just mean it as if you needthe help, get it.
And the wellness visit is a nicenice, sneaky way to get it.
You don't go to your physicaltherapy or your your physical
(22:28):
and go, no, my arm's fine whileit like the shoulder's out of
the socket, they have to checkit out, right?
So I think that that's where Ibelieve in the wellness visits.
But when we, you know, as wewe're gonna change a little bit
of the subject here, and we mayjust get some going.
We may have to stay for anotherhalf hour if you don't mind.
But I would love to talk about,you know, like so you you
(22:50):
obviously retired.
SPEAKER_02 (22:52):
I did.
SPEAKER_00 (22:53):
And you know, people leave any type of like LEO job
or firefighter or paramedic ormilitary or DS.
You leave that job and you'relike you mentioned it earlier,
just like about a few minutesago, your ident your identity's
just taken away.
What did that moment look foryou when you had the it looked
(23:14):
like a it looked like a panicattack?
SPEAKER_02 (23:18):
I mean, and it and it was a it was an unexpected
panic attack.
The day I retired, I had to mailmy credentials and a FedEx
envelope back to Washington, DC,and you know, department issues
retirement credentials, but theydon't send those out until they
(23:38):
get your active dutycredentials.
So there was gonna be a periodof time where I didn't have any
credentials.
And when I sealed that envelope,like I had I don't know how else
to describe it, other than apanic attack.
Like, you know, I mean, Icouldn't breathe.
I was I felt super anxious, Iwas I mean it almost kind of
(24:01):
caught me off guard, but justthat thought of being without
even my retirement credentialsto say who I had been, not even
who I was now, but you know, wasyeah, it was hard.
SPEAKER_00 (24:15):
You know, like it was all it's always interesting
when people talk about thatbecause it's essentially what
they I if I had a dime foreveryone, someone told me it's
hard with a big smile on theirface, and like you could tell
they're in pain as hell.
I mean, I'd get I'd be a richman.
SPEAKER_02 (24:31):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (24:32):
You know, maybe we can touch on this and then maybe
get to the other side.
But you you talk about havingthe panic attack and losing your
identity.
What part of your identity wasthe hardest?
Like you wouldn't be working forDS anymore.
Was it that you're not doing thelaw enforcement for lack of a
better word, on the other sideor something else?
SPEAKER_02 (24:53):
I think it was just that feeling of being in the
club, you know, having that kindof deference almost in the way
that you move about the world.
And I was taking a cross-countrytrip a day or two after I mailed
my credentials back.
I was gonna drive back to theMidwest.
And I just remember thinking,like, how am I gonna drive you
(25:18):
know all the way across thecountry without any credentials?
Like, what happens if I getpulled over?
You know, like every member ofthe public who gets pulled over
and doesn't have a you know abadge next to their driver's
license.
Like that was just seemed soscary.
SPEAKER_00 (25:38):
Civilian life sucks.
I get it.
SPEAKER_02 (25:40):
Yeah.
Yeah, just like losing that thatmembership.
SPEAKER_00 (25:46):
Let's talk about that membership for a second.
If you want to stick around, I'mjust gonna end this per first
half hour.
Guys, get here for the secondpart of the episode.
It will be on the other side.
So please join us then.
SPEAKER_01 (25:58):
Please like, subscribe, and follow this
podcast on your favoriteplatform.
A glowing review is alwayshelpful.
And as a reminder, this podcastis for informational,
educational, and entertainmentpurposes only.
If you're struggling with amental health or substance abuse
issue, please reach out to aprofessional counselor for
consultation.
If you are in a mental healthcrisis, call 988 for assistance.
(26:22):
This number is available in theUnited States and Canada.
Welcome to Resilience Development in Action
with Steve Bisson.
This is the podcast dedicated tofirst responder mental health,
helping police, fire, EMS,dispatchers, and paramedics
create better growthenvironments for themselves and
their teams.
Let's get started.
SPEAKER_00 (00:29):
Well, hi everyone, and welcome to episode 248.
If you haven't listened toepisode 247, it is the returning
mental men.
We talked about a lot of goodstuff in regards to the stress
of the work and environmentstress environmental stressors
at home that goes with that.
But for episode 428, I'm justexcited because I I, you know,
you meet someone, you getsomeone paperwork or what have
(00:52):
you through an email.
I'm like, wow, this is theperson that's perfect for this
podcast.
So when I got Kemi Sadler's onepager, as they call it in our
industry, I was like, oh mygosh, she's perfect for this
show.
So as you know, when you'relistening to my show, I don't
pretend I know people I don'tknow, but I certainly was
excited to have her on.
So I I definitely believe intelling you that.
(01:13):
But Kemi, welcome to ResilienceDevelopment in Action.
SPEAKER_02 (01:17):
Uh thank you.
Thanks so much for having me on.
SPEAKER_00 (01:19):
Uh you know, like I'm nothing like a retired
supervisor supervisory specialagent in the US department's uh
diplomatic security service.
That's a mouthful in itself, butI got what it means.
You work for the your diplomaticservice uh service security for
people.
And I know that you're not inthe same time zone as me.
(01:40):
So thank you for giving me halfyour afternoon.
I I'm recording in the morningwhere I'm at.
But I guess, you know, maybe itwould be good for you to
introduce yourself a little bitto the audience, tell us about
yourself.
SPEAKER_02 (01:52):
Sure.
Well, I've retired fromdiplomatic security service in
April of 2024 after just over 20years.
DS is the law enforcement arm ofthe State Department.
So it's, you know, primaryresponsibilities are dignitary
protection as well as afull-time detail on the U.S.
(02:12):
Secretary of State.
And then for the investigativeside of the house, it's U.S.
travel documents, passports,visas, investigations into
identity theft and things ofthat nature.
Before becoming federal agentwith the U.S.
State Department, I worked for acouple of years as a civilian
contractor for Department ofDefense in Kuwait, just after
(02:34):
9-11.
And working backwards in time onSeptember 10th, 2001 was my last
day with the St.
Augustine Police Department,where I had spent about five
years between 911 dispatched andthen transferring to the road as
the police officer with St.
Augustine.
So all told I did about 26years, excuse me, sworn law
(02:55):
enforcement.
I grew up in a small town in theMidwest.
So Midwest Girl, St.
Genevieve, Missouri.
It's the oldest town west of theMississippi, it's about an hour
south of St.
Louis.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (03:09):
Well, you know, five years a police officer, and on
September 10th, you're youretire, you leave, or you go,
you are still in service, andthen 9-11 occurs, and you're
like, oh my God, I gotta dosomething.
SPEAKER_02 (03:20):
I had already taken the contract with the Department
of Defense to go to Kuwait.
So I had I had resigned, andSeptember 10th just happened to
be my last day.
And on 9-11, I was puttingeverything in my house to put
into a storage unit to moveoverseas to Kuwait when all of
the events of that day startedto unfold and my phone started
to ring.
(03:41):
And one of the calls was fromthe chief of police offering me
my job back.
You know, people over like,you're not still going to the
Middle East, are you?
So it seems all of a sudden thatseems like a bad idea.
But you know, I had signed thecontract and I decided to go
ahead and and see that through.
So I spent about two years inKuwait, which is where I learned
about the diplomatic securityservice.
SPEAKER_00 (04:05):
Oh, okay.
So that by being there, you kindof like learn about these
services, the diplomaticservices.
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (04:11):
I knew somebody that go ahead.
Sorry, I knew somebody that wentto the security briefings at the
embassy and he told me about it.
And he said, you know, this isbecause the contract worked for
me was I was just kind oflooking for, you know, something
different and a little bit oftravel.
And but I wanted to get backinto something that was more of
a career than contracting.
(04:33):
And my friend knew that and hehe went to these meetings at the
embassy, and he's like, Youshould look into this.
It's law enforcement and travel.
It seems like it would be a goodfit for you.
And it just so happened that DSwas hiring at the time that I
learned about it.
So I jumped through some hoopsto get everything ready to
submit that application packageand got on with with DS about
(04:54):
six months after that.
SPEAKER_00 (04:56):
But and what made you like you you did that for
you said what 20 years, 22years?
SPEAKER_02 (05:03):
Yeah, 20 years and four months.
SPEAKER_00 (05:05):
Okay.
20 years of that.
You gotta really like it to dothat for that long.
SPEAKER_02 (05:10):
I loved it.
I you know, DS is the best keptsecret in federal law
enforcement.
It's one of the smaller federalagencies, and it's similar to
the military in the sense thatthe assignments are short term
and depending on the threatlevel.
So every year to two years,three years being the most, the
(05:31):
longest assignment, you canextend sometimes for a fourth
year, but you bet on assignmentsand you move around.
So my tours took me all over theworld.
I did a year in Iraq, a year inAfghanistan, tours in El
Salvador and Mexico, and thendomestic tours in Washington,
DC, St.
Louis and Orlando.
SPEAKER_00 (05:51):
Wow, you went to all the nice places that are nice
and safe.
That's great.
SPEAKER_02 (05:55):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (05:57):
Well, I'm all the garden spots.
I know.
I was gonna like, oh, I wentfrom you said what, Kuwait to
Iraq to Afghanistan.
I'm like, geez, that's a greatplace to be in the mid-2000s.
SPEAKER_02 (06:09):
Yeah, Iraq.
I was there that Iraq was mysecond tour.
I was there in 06 and 07.
So before we had moved into anactual embassy, and the embassy
was located inside one ofSaddam's former palaces.
SPEAKER_00 (06:22):
Oh wow.
SPEAKER_02 (06:23):
The tour in Afghanistan was later in my
career in 2017, 2018, so about ayear before that all kind of
went to shit.
SPEAKER_00 (06:33):
Yeah.
Afghanistan is a veryfascinating place, if you ask
me.
SPEAKER_02 (06:38):
But oh yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (06:39):
Very interesting people.
I think that they've been tryingto be taken over since the
Ottoman Empire, and somehow theystill stand up and do their
thing, for better or for worse,unfortunately.
Right.
So, you know, you do all thesethings and you're traveling a
lot.
How do you get a family goingwhen you're traveling so much?
SPEAKER_02 (07:01):
It's not easy.
It's a very my I mean, I don'tknow statistically if the
divorce rate is higher in theForeign Service than other
segments of law enforcement orsociety, but it's not the the
easiest career, probably to havea family.
The State Department's prettygood about trying to accommodate
people with families and kids,and you know, but it adds layers
(07:24):
and layers of complicationbecause then you have kids in
international schools, and somecountries have more schools
available than others, and somecountries they're safer for
families than others, and somecountries you can't even take
your family on an assignment,whereas others you can.
So I'm at my current spouseactually in El Salvador.
And when you when both of thepeople in the marriage are
(07:47):
Department of State employees,then that adds a layer of
complication because then youhave to find jobs at the same
place and time in the samecountry.
So that that also that also addsyou know some some
complications.
So we went from El Salvador toWashington, DC, Afghanistan
together, then Mexico, and Ifinished up my career in in
(08:11):
Florida.
And then I retired and she wasable to get a job in in Europe.
So, you know, I joke.
I had to, in order for me to geta posting in Europe, I just had
to retire.
SPEAKER_00 (08:21):
Yeah, well, that Florida to Europe, it's almost
like you know, rolls off yourthung, tongue, really, uh if you
ask me.
SPEAKER_02 (08:28):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (08:29):
And then when I already joked around earlier, I
said the danger spots.
You went to Florida, good, goodfor you.
I'm joking for people in Floridalistening.
I'm making a joke, I'm pickingon you.
I get it, but I'm just pickingon you.
So you do this for about 20years.
I mean, there's gotta be likesome stressors besides the
family.
I brought up the family, butthere's gotta be other stressors
(08:50):
that play a factor for thatlong.
I mean, it's great to work forthe Department of State, but I
can see where it can also bevery hard to push through some
of the shit you gotta deal with.
SPEAKER_02 (09:00):
Yeah, I think that's a fair, I think that's a fair
statement.
And I think it's something thatyou don't always recognize in
the moment or while or whileyou're pushing through it.
You know, now that I've beenretired for a couple of years
and been on this kind of healingjourney, it's much easier to
look back retrospectively andsee how trauma was building up
(09:24):
and how it how it impacted meover the years, but in in the
moment, I don't know that Ialways recognized it for what it
was.
The one exception to that was in2006 when I was in Iraq, there
was a woman that worked, anIraqi woman that worked at the
embassy with us.
I was her direct supervisor.
(09:45):
She was an older woman on hersecond career.
And she and her husband, whoalso worked at the embassy, were
out in town running running someerrands.
They went to the bank.
And when they came out of thebank, some group of individuals
kidnapped her husband and heldhim for ransom, and she
(10:06):
negotiated a ransom for him overthe coming weeks and ultimately
went to pay that ransom.
And when she did, she was alsokidnapped and killed.
SPEAKER_00 (10:14):
And the way I can't go into details about exactly
just so you know, I'll neverpush you to talk about stuff you
don't want to.
SPEAKER_02 (10:24):
Well, it's it's that I you know, some of it I I
can't.
SPEAKER_00 (10:27):
No, no, that I will never do that.
I know I know your job, so I'mnot pushing it.
But protected by a HIPAA, youknow what I mean?
SPEAKER_02 (10:35):
I right.
Suffice it to say, I I carriedsome survivor's guilt around
that.
I felt that I should have beenable to talk around of going to
pay the ransom or should havebeen able to do more to protect
her when she went.
And it weighed on me veryheavily.
And I I did talk to somebody onetime, a counselor, and just I
(10:56):
mean, completely had an absolutebreakdown in that session.
And and that was the first timeI ever heard the term survivor's
guilt was in that in thatsession with somebody.
And I was like, okay, well, nowit has a name, now I know what
it is that's been that's beenbothering me.
So I'm just gonna, you know,move on.
And when you have a job whereyour mental fitness is a
(11:22):
prerequisite for your job, andthen you add a security
clearance on top of that, youknow, this often whether it's
just perceived or whether it'sthe reality, I think there's a
reluctance in the profession toseek out any kind of counseling
because there's that fear thatit's gonna negatively impact
(11:44):
your job.
So that was the only time I evertalked to somebody about it, but
it stayed with me, and I, youknow, I knew it was something
that I still kind of struggledwith processing the that that
grief and and that loss.
SPEAKER_00 (12:01):
Just a quick break, guys.
I'm gonna talk about a newproduct that I really like.
I actually bought one of theirhoodies, it was amazing, and I
really enjoyed wearing it.
Uh, it this episode is gonna besupported by Deemed Fit.
Deemed Fit is a firstresponder-owned activewear and a
leisure brand.
And one thing that I genuinelylike about them is that they
support different causes.
I actually gave a few people Iknow who work with first
(12:23):
responders, our nonprofits,their name to uh Deemed Fit, and
I know they're talking to them.
They do a lot of initiatives andcollections that are based on
mental health for firstresponders.
And if you go there right nowand you buy anything, including
the mental health support stuff,uh use the code RDA15.
That's right, R D A 15 to get15% off on any products that you
(12:47):
get.
Again, it's called RDA15.
Go to dfit.com, D-E-E,M-E-D-F-I-T.com and enjoy 15%
off at checkout to save.
Now, right back to the episode.
I mean, it was interestingbecause when I talk about
survivor's guilt and any type oflike grief process, my
(13:08):
conversation with most of myclients is don't square.
And what squares are in myoffice are if, but, try, could,
should, would, probably.
Because they're allconditionals.
Anyone who's read my book knowsI talk about that.
But in my particular case, eventhe hearing you, I should have
talked her out of it.
I could have done something,like all those languages.
(13:28):
I'm not, I don't want to do yourtherapy here.
I promise, I'm not pushing forany details you can't share.
I'm just saying that from myperspective, that's the hardest
part.
I think for law enforcement ingeneral, and the military, by
the way, and you know, like whenI think about your the DS, I
mean, it's half military andhalf first responder.
I mean, like, because there is amilitary value in what you're
(13:49):
talking about, and then there'sobviously the you know, the law
enforcement side that goes withthat.
You know, I think that when youtalk about this vicarious trauma
and the survivor's guilt, youknow, we try to hide it.
What I usually hear is I don'twant people to take my got my
job away, my gun away, my badgeaway, whatever.
Right.
Is that the same fears thatreally got you, or was it
(14:11):
something else?
Because there's definitely anegative impact with all this.
SPEAKER_02 (14:15):
I think it definitely crossed my mind that
counseling of counseling outsideof the umbrella of grief
counseling or marriagecounseling could trigger a
fitness for duty.
So I think that was always inthe back of my mind anytime I
thought about, you know, shouldI should should I seek out some
counseling?
(14:35):
But honestly, as my career wenton, I just I think it was more
something that you know wouldcome up for me, things would
remind me of it, or I would, youknow, become emotional.
I I I knew I knew that I hadn'thealed from it.
But at the same time, I don'tknow that I recognized that I
(15:00):
needed to, if if that makessense, or that I could, or you
know, or even that that it was apossibility that it was
something that I could processin a healthy way and leave
behind.
SPEAKER_00 (15:12):
Right.
And survivor's guilt is, youknow, to me one of the hardest
things to leave behind.
When we talk about survivor'sguilt, we usually talk about,
you know, people who grow olderthan their parents or their
siblings or what have you.
But in the military, it's a realthing, especially when I
remember guys coming back fromIraq.
I've done a lot of militarycounseling for lack of a better
(15:33):
word, but you know, I had to doit with given hour because given
hour, and I'm plugging inpurposely, I don't make any
money from it.
You don't need to documentanything, it's just saying you
see military.
And I again, this if peoplelisten to this, like, oh, thank
you.
I don't want to hear thank you.
I'm doing it because I want to.
But I remember a lot of themstruggling coming back from
Iraq.
You know, I was on convoy,something happened, or when they
(15:55):
went to Kuwait and the fires andthe oil fields.
I mean, I can talk along.
I don't want to go into too muchmilitary here, and I'm sure I
gotta be careful about notviolating information.
But at the end of the day, Ithink that that's a lot of the
stuff that happened went in themilitary service, and that's why
I was kind of like making aparallel with what you said.
(16:16):
And I think that that you know,when you talk about fitness for
duty, that's the scariest wordsyou could ever use for anyone in
your position, correct?
Yes.
Does it create like the owndoubt for yourself, or you're
afraid that people will readright through you or something
else?
SPEAKER_02 (16:32):
Well, I think it's twofold.
You know, I mean, I think partof it is the job because so much
of your identity and the thoughtof losing it is unbearable.
You know, why would I doanything that would risk the
job?
The, you know, having to walkaway and not on my own terms.
And also being seen, you know,it's a it's a field where as
(16:57):
part of that identity, you'retough, you know, you're
resilient, you don't needanything, you're the one coming
to the aid of others, not theother way around.
And so to admit that you needsome help is hard as well.
And how is that going to beviewed by my by my colleagues if
people find out that I needcounseling?
(17:19):
I like to think that that'schanging in in in the industry,
but maybe that's naive.
SPEAKER_00 (17:25):
No, I don't think it's naive, but I don't think
it's changing as fast as well.
Again, I'm a therapist, soprobably have a different
standard than most lawenforcement slash DS people.
But I think that it is changing,but I there's also this
wussification when you hearthat.
And there's, you know, I'vecertainly heard it from
different people in my job as ayou know, a therapist with first
(17:48):
responders in general.
Uh I think that it's really hardto make for me, and let me get
out of my soapbox for a second.
I try to explain to chiefs thatsomeone with a health mental
health issue is just likebreaking their leg or what have
you.
Uh and if you're able to processit out, then guess what?
You have a better officer,sergeant, whatever.
(18:09):
Yes.
But but if you don't process itout, then the person may get
retire early, may have otherissues at work, may start
getting there late, may developa substance abuse.
And then when you start blamingthem for that because they
couldn't reach out for help,there's a problem there.
I don't know if any of thatresonates, but that's certainly
what I've seen.
And some some chiefs I I want toI in Massachusetts reach out to
(18:33):
me directly.
John Doe, Jane Doe's having ahard time.
I don't want to lose them.
Can I just send them to you?
And there's other chiefs whotell me, like, oh, so you're
seeing so-and-so.
Well, you know, do you thinkthey can handle a gun anymore?
Holy fuck, I don't want to talkabout that.
So I don't know.
There's a that I think I seeboth sides.
My hope is one day we will seethat if we treat it right away
(18:56):
and we leave it in your acutestress disorder world, and sorry
to bore bore you with therapy,an acute stress disorder is in
the first six months you processout a trauma, then it doesn't
become PTSD and doesn't starteroding your confidence and work
in general.
SPEAKER_02 (19:12):
Right.
Right.
And but and you know, buildingthat into the the copious
amounts of training that we dothroughout our careers is that,
you know, resilience over theover the course of my career, I
can probably count on one handthe number of times I sat
through a training where therewas talk about just the reality
(19:32):
of these these types of things.
That the the you know, be awareof the toll that moral injury.
I never heard I never heard theterm moral injury throughout my
entire career, I don't think, oreven you know, PTSD was always
something that applied to toveterans, not not first
responders.
Like these were not ideas thatwere talked about or where
(19:55):
trainings were offered.
The only time I recall doing anykind of training on mental
health or mental healthawareness were mandatory, you
know, maybe half-day trainingsafter a tour in Iraq or
Afghanistan.
And then I did a week-long peersupport group training with VS,
(20:16):
which has a has a greatinitiative to have a network of
peers who go through a trainingand you know, put your name on a
list to be available for otheragents who may need someone to
call and talk to.
And so there's, you know, it'sdefinitely an effort to do a
peer-to-peer network to addresssome of these issues, but
(20:37):
outside of those things, therewas an and that was voluntary,
right?
So there was no formal mentalhealth processing resilience.
SPEAKER_00 (20:48):
And I think it's good to have the peers there.
I certainly am a big fan of peersupport.
I'm a big fan of wellnessvisits, because I think that
that's the other way to handleit, in my opinion.
So, you know, peer supports, youknow, you can talk to someone
who's been there, done that.
I don't know what it is to workfor DS, and now will I pretend.
But having a peer who has workedthere and understands that is
(21:10):
very important.
I think that there's always thelimitation of who are they gonna
talk to afterwards, which Ithink plays in that you talked
about moral injury oradministration betrayal.
That certainly plays a factortoo, in my opinion.
SPEAKER_02 (21:23):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (21:24):
So I think that that's why like having wellness
visits is also a great way tochange that up.
And I don't know if they dothose at the DS.
I'm sure they do make you do aphysical every year, but I'm not
quite sure they make you do awellness visit for your mental
health.
SPEAKER_02 (21:40):
No.
I don't I never did I never dida wellness visit.
Yeah, the the physicals you thethe you know, the physicals you
have to do before an overseasdeployment.
So not it not necessarily everyyear, but every few years you're
you know, you're getting checkedout to make sure you're still
able to travel worldwide and youknow have the expectation to be
healthy.
You are in the in the world, butthere was uh there's no mental
(22:04):
health side of that.
SPEAKER_00 (22:05):
And of course, you're talking to a mental
health counselor, so obviouslyI'm gonna be pushing that agenda
a little bit.
So please understand people whoare listening.
The reason why I talk about thisis not because I think
everything's trauma and I don'tthink that everyone's screwed
up.
I just mean it as if you needthe help, get it.
And the wellness visit is a nicenice, sneaky way to get it.
You don't go to your physicaltherapy or your your physical
(22:28):
and go, no, my arm's fine whileit like the shoulder's out of
the socket, they have to checkit out, right?
So I think that that's where Ibelieve in the wellness visits.
But when we, you know, as wewe're gonna change a little bit
of the subject here, and we mayjust get some going.
We may have to stay for anotherhalf hour if you don't mind.
But I would love to talk about,you know, like so you you
(22:50):
obviously retired.
SPEAKER_02 (22:52):
I did.
SPEAKER_00 (22:53):
And you know, people leave any type of like LEO job
or firefighter or paramedic ormilitary or DS.
You leave that job and you'relike you mentioned it earlier,
just like about a few minutesago, your ident your identity's
just taken away.
What did that moment look foryou when you had the it looked
(23:14):
like a it looked like a panicattack?
SPEAKER_02 (23:18):
I mean, and it and it was a it was an unexpected
panic attack.
The day I retired, I had to mailmy credentials and a FedEx
envelope back to Washington, DC,and you know, department issues
retirement credentials, but theydon't send those out until they
(23:38):
get your active dutycredentials.
So there was gonna be a periodof time where I didn't have any
credentials.
And when I sealed that envelope,like I had I don't know how else
to describe it, other than apanic attack.
Like, you know, I mean, Icouldn't breathe.
I was I felt super anxious, Iwas I mean it almost kind of
(24:01):
caught me off guard, but justthat thought of being without
even my retirement credentialsto say who I had been, not even
who I was now, but you know, wasyeah, it was hard.
SPEAKER_00 (24:15):
You know, like it was all it's always interesting
when people talk about thatbecause it's essentially what
they I if I had a dime foreveryone, someone told me it's
hard with a big smile on theirface, and like you could tell
they're in pain as hell.
I mean, I'd get I'd be a richman.
SPEAKER_02 (24:31):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (24:32):
You know, maybe we can touch on this and then maybe
get to the other side.
But you you talk about havingthe panic attack and losing your
identity.
What part of your identity wasthe hardest?
Like you wouldn't be working forDS anymore.
Was it that you're not doing thelaw enforcement for lack of a
better word, on the other sideor something else?
SPEAKER_02 (24:53):
I think it was just that feeling of being in the
club, you know, having that kindof deference almost in the way
that you move about the world.
And I was taking a cross-countrytrip a day or two after I mailed
my credentials back.
I was gonna drive back to theMidwest.
And I just remember thinking,like, how am I gonna drive you
(25:18):
know all the way across thecountry without any credentials?
Like, what happens if I getpulled over?
You know, like every member ofthe public who gets pulled over
and doesn't have a you know abadge next to their driver's
license.
Like that was just seemed soscary.
SPEAKER_00 (25:38):
Civilian life sucks.
I get it.
SPEAKER_02 (25:40):
Yeah.
Yeah, just like losing that thatmembership.
SPEAKER_00 (25:46):
Let's talk about that membership for a second.
If you want to stick around, I'mjust gonna end this per first
half hour.
Guys, get here for the secondpart of the episode.
It will be on the other side.
So please join us then.
SPEAKER_01 (25:58):
Please like, subscribe, and follow this
podcast on your favoriteplatform.
A glowing review is alwayshelpful.
And as a reminder, this podcastis for informational,
educational, and entertainmentpurposes only.
If you're struggling with amental health or substance abuse
issue, please reach out to aprofessional counselor for
consultation.
If you are in a mental healthcrisis, call 988 for assistance.
(26:22):
This number is available in theUnited States and Canada.
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