May 6, 2026 • 32 mins
One call can change the way you breathe, drive, sleep, and even trust your own judgment. I sit down with paramedic Emma Irwin to talk through a suicide scene that hit hard, the moment she cried on scene, and the quiet belief that too many first responders carry: “I should be able to handle this.” We name what that pressure does to police, fire, EMS, dispatchers, and paramedics when trauma exposure finally breaks through the professional mask.
Emma walks me through what happened after the call, including delayed PTSD symptoms that showed up weeks later: rising anxiety at work, a medication error that signaled something was seriously off, panic attacks leaving the house, and relentless intrusive images. We get specific about the difference between suicidal intent and intrusive trauma thoughts, and why honesty is the fastest path to real help. We also talk about debriefing, why going straight from a traumatic job to the next call can make things worse, and how workplace culture can either protect people or push them into silence.
We spend time on practical coping mechanisms that don’t cause more damage, especially peer support, self awareness, and the power of someone simply asking, “Are you OK?” Emma shares how EMDR therapy helped her process the scene, regain a sense of control, and ultimately rethink her career in a way that protects her mental health. We also address an uncomfortable but real part of EMS life: sexual harassment in the service, why “everyone knew” is not an excuse, and how reporting can change a station for the better.
If you care about first responder mental health, paramedic PTSD, suicide prevention, and building teams where people can speak up early, this conversation is for you. Subscribe, share this with a teammate, and leave a review so more responders can find it when they need it most.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:01):
Welcome to Resilience Development in Action
with Steve Bisson.
This is the podcast dedicated tofirst responder mental health,
helping police, fire, EMS,dispatchers, and paramedics
create better growthenvironments for themselves and
their teams.
Let's get started.
SPEAKER_03 (00:29):
And we're back.
SPEAKER_00 (00:30):
And Emmer Emmer Irving, I gotta get her name
right, on Resilience Developmentand Action.
We're talking about suicide.
We're talking about we were justhaving a conversation about
finding someone who was hanging.
It was just known as a death,and suddenly you show up, it's a
hanging with young kids, and younever cry on scene.
And it sounds crazy, but thatwas difficult for you and
whatever.
SPEAKER_02 (00:51):
But that's the issue I had, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (00:52):
Okay, so let me start off.
And this goes not just for you.
I'm talking to the audience too,because a lot of them are first
responders, but I'm gonna lookyou in the eye.
Of course, it's not fuckingcrazy.
You just saw someone who diedand died on their own in front
of their fucking kids.
Sorry.
SPEAKER_02 (01:06):
And I would say that to someone else.
Yeah, I would say that tosomeone else.
That's my normal response.
SPEAKER_00 (01:10):
It's a normal response to an abnormal
situation.
And yes, civilians may not likewould be, I get that they would
be really because they're notused to that stuff.
In your particular case, it'ssomething that you deal with,
but it's an abnormal situation.
Yeah, one of the things thatpeople do is like, oh, it's an
abnormal situation I reactednormally to, therefore I'm
crazy.
It makes no sense to mewhatsoever.
SPEAKER_02 (01:32):
I think it's it's because in our roles as a
frontline worker, fireman,police, paramedic, whatever you
are.
I think you're you expect youyou sort of have this what's the
word I'm looking for?
You don't expect to react thatway.
You're expected to deal with itand and to to manage it and to
be calm and to be calm foreveryone else on scene.
And I think I didn't I wasn'tembarrassed.
(01:53):
It wasn't that I was embarrassedabout crying, because I know
that I'm allowed to get upsetabout things.
I think it was the fact that Igot emotional so suddenly, like
I didn't have time to leave theroom, I was in front of people,
and I wasn't expecting the likeoverwhelming emotion.
And I only found out that thiswas the cause of I'll tell you
some of my symptoms I had after,but I only found out during
(02:15):
therapy I had EDMR therapy,which is the sort of rapid eye
movement therapy.
SPEAKER_00 (02:21):
The MDR is something I do myself, so I know exactly
what it is.
SPEAKER_02 (02:24):
Yeah, so I had that and I only needed one or two
sessions because it was that oneepisode, it wasn't so trauma.
SPEAKER_00 (02:31):
Not that I want you to have one, but so lucky it was
just one.
SPEAKER_02 (02:34):
Yeah, I only had a couple of uh sessions and we
addressed the it so after thisevent, for a couple of weeks I
was sort of okay.
I was thinking about it as youdo with one of those.
It wasn't there was nothing.
So I think what's important isas soon as we finished that job,
we were gonna head back tostation for sort of a debrief,
but we got a cardiac arrest torode over, so that I then had to
(02:56):
go and do another cardiac arrestand he passed.
And that was more of an elderlyperson, sort of quite unwell
when expected.
So, but I think going straightinto another job didn't help.
And I think we reflected in mytherapy that a debrief is very
important and should havehappened in this situation.
I shouldn't have been allowed togo to another job, but you know,
(03:17):
you can't say no when it's theroad over, can you?
You just you you can't in thatmoment, and that's where
management should have said nofor us, I think, in that
situation.
But yeah, in a couple of weeksafter I felt okay, and then a
few weeks down the line, Istarted getting very anxious at
work, and I'm a very confidentperson at work, and I start
getting very anxious, and withmy abilities, my decision making
(03:39):
sort of internally, and I gave adrug error because I was so
anxious.
No one was injured.
It was a lady having she wasn'tanaphylactic, but she was having
a severe allergic reaction, andI gave her I am adrenaline and
we're supposed to split the dosewith five minutes intervals in
between.
I gave her the full dose, so shejust felt very sick, she felt
(04:00):
very sick, vomited.
Other than that, she was fineand she thanked me for feeling
better.
So we were all okay, but I'venever done that before, and I
knew that I'd done that becauseI was getting very anxious, and
that for me meant something wasvery wrong.
And from then I went off work,and I think that's how I
recognized it.
So I went off sick, and fromthen it just sort of spiraled,
(04:21):
really.
I had I was having panic attacksleaving the house, I was seeing
bad things wherever I went.
You know, I'd walk up to theshop and I was seeing car
accidents happening, you know,not necessarily relating to
hangings, but someone droppingdead in front of me.
It was like everything justkicked up.
And I had this, I have the samewindow that she had at home, and
I was imagining myself hangingin the window.
(04:44):
And I did one of my assessmentswith occupational therapy when I
was off and to go through to thetherapy, and they said, you
know, have you been suicidal?
And I said, Well, no, like I'vebeen seeing these visions, but
I'm not suicide.
Like, I don't want to die, but Ijust had such like intrusive
thoughts, I guess it is likereally intrusive thoughts.
And yeah, I was off for abouteight weeks and had the EDMR,
(05:06):
and through that and replayingthe scene, I was having panic
attacks when I was getting outof breath, and it was all
internal, it was all me losingcontrol of the on the on scene
and crying.
I lost control of my emotions,and that's what it all came down
to.
And so all my symptoms afterwere me feeling out of control
(05:26):
and losing control of you know,feeling out of breath, walking
up a hill or like or you know,not controlling what's going on
around me and how people aredriving around me.
It was just such random things,but it all came down to like a
lack of control because I'dcried on scene, which I just
find really interesting.
SPEAKER_00 (05:46):
Well I do too, because I I hear the lack of
control.
And I don't want to do yourtherapy, so I gotta be mindful
here, so I gotta walk a line.
But I see the lack of control,but I also see this oh my god,
shouldn't I be able to handlethis?
Shouldn't I be able to do this?
SPEAKER_03 (06:06):
Shouldn't I be like this lack of my case?
SPEAKER_00 (06:10):
Confidence played a factor because you know, the
other part too that I think inour field, and you correct me if
I'm wrong, I encourage myofficers, firefighters,
paramedics, emts, dispatch.
I say, look, there's somethingcalled passive suicidality.
You don't want to die, butyou're like, I wish sometimes I
wasn't here, or I had thesevisions sometimes that I'm dead.
(06:32):
And people are like, Oh, you'regonna take my gun away, you're
gonna do this, you're gonna no,you need to be honest about
these things so you can getthrough to the other side.
SPEAKER_02 (06:40):
Yeah, it doesn't mean you want it.
Yeah, it was just yeah, justthese visions, but things really
spiraled then.
And but I knew I'd luckily I'dpicked up that something wasn't
right because of how anxious Iwas feeling before that.
So I was off and I'd already gotthe ball rolling on on therapy.
And through work, I think Ithink my manager put in for the
(07:00):
therapy, and um two weeks laterI had my first session.
So it yeah, it was super quick.
And I was off eight weeks intotal, and then after that, I
loved being a paramedic.
I really did, but I think movingto a new service, and then
within two years, all of thishappening, I think just sort of
ruined it for me.
I wasn't I I wasn't really thatgood friends with anyone there.
(07:20):
I hadn't really fully settled,and I'd moved from one station
to another, so I'd only have anygear at the station I was at,
and I don't think there wasenough people around me that I
was close to in order for me tostay.
I think what I was in London forsix years, and I was I had a lot
of good friends in London and Iwas really close to people in
London.
I think if I'd have been there,I might have stayed after all of
this.
But I think just being where Iwas, I just didn't feel
(07:42):
comfortable enough, and it justyeah, it just put me off.
I don't know, it's not I don'tknow, maybe I just lost
confidence in myself, but I I Ifound other things that I want
to do more in life.
I love dogs, I've got my dog,I'll send you some pictures.
SPEAKER_00 (07:59):
There's a lot of dog lovers here.
SPEAKER_02 (08:00):
If I don't put up pictures, so I decided I wanted
to walk dogs and get someexercise and keep bits.
So I went part-time at work umas a paramedic and I opened a
little dog walking business andI started walking dogs
part-time, but with shift workthat didn't really work out, and
I thought, you know, I've got tothink about what's good for me
in life.
And I thought, you know, doingshift work and and carrying on
(08:23):
as a paramedic isn't what I'mgonna enjoy anymore.
I don't enjoy it, so yeah, Ileft, but I didn't want to lose
being a paramedic, you know, incase one day I want to go back
to it, so the job I'm doing nowmeans I can keep my registration
and I can walk dogs and I can dothings I enjoy, and I've got a
nine to five life, and yeah, I'menjoying it so far.
And there's no trauma.
SPEAKER_00 (08:43):
Right.
Well, debatable.
SPEAKER_02 (08:45):
But I don't have to sit in anyone's dirty house.
SPEAKER_00 (08:48):
I'm sorry, there's trauma everywhere in my opinion.
SPEAKER_02 (08:50):
That's there is okay, yeah.
No, I agree, I agree.
SPEAKER_00 (08:53):
My my one of my best mentors said to me says to me
and to a lot of people therapyexists for two reasons
unresolved grief or unresolvedtrauma.
If you take care of both ofthem, you probably will not need
therapy.
And to me, that's a greatmeasurement of what it is.
And I think that for keep yourlicense going and all that, I I
(09:14):
think that when you say you'renot close to everyone, that's
another conversation I had withother people who had trouble
with their work because youknow, you go to a call, maybe
you struggle you you had aproblem with it and all that,
then the next call comes in.
If you have no one on yourdepartment or, you know, on the
ambulance or in the company,whatever you call them, to kind
of like turn to, to talk to,then that makes the trauma
(09:38):
worse.
And sometimes it's finding thatif you don't have that, maybe it
is best for you to either findanother place or, like you said,
keep your paramedic, dosomething different.
SPEAKER_02 (09:47):
Yeah, try something different, do something you want
to do.
Yeah, don't get me wrong, theywere very supportive, like they
were very good about everything.
The welfare was great for me.
unknown (09:56):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (09:57):
But yeah, I just didn't I just didn't feel
comfortable in the positionanymore.
I think after like six, sevenyears, I feel like that's
enough.
Like you've seen it all.
It's so exciting when you firststart, isn't it?
You know, blood, guts, gore,like drive fast, fast driving,
blue lights like you want to doit all, you want to see
everything.
Oh, I wanted to hang in sobadly.
It sounds awful, but I just Iwanted to go to these.
SPEAKER_00 (10:18):
If I had a dime for every time I heard that, I'd be
I I have about a ten dollar billhere.
SPEAKER_02 (10:22):
And now, like six years later, it's like I don't I
don't want to do any of it.
And you know, you've either gotthe blood guts gore trauma
stuff, which I you know I'veseen it all now, and it's just
every time you go, it just makesyou a bit sadder.
And then the rest of it just isrelatively boring to me now.
There's just there's no middleground.
(10:44):
It's either people that don'tneed an ambulance or it's
traumatizing jobs, and I thinkI've had enough of that.
SPEAKER_00 (10:50):
Well, I think that that's so common a lot of
people, like you say, you know,the blood and core and all that,
and oh, I want to see my firsthanging and this and that, and
that's not uncommon.
I hear that all the time.
SPEAKER_02 (11:00):
Like more than that.
SPEAKER_00 (11:01):
Until you do see them.
SPEAKER_02 (11:03):
Yeah, and then you're like, I don't know,
actually.
But um, I don't know what it'slike in America, but in uh in
England, in London, especiallythe like retention rate for
staff is about six years beforethey leave.
SPEAKER_00 (11:15):
Oh, yeah.
Well, I don't know the numbersfor the private ambulances
around here, that's what theycall them for, you know, if
you're working but the numberscan be good.
I mean, I I think about thepeople I know.
I can't think of anyone whostayed more than two years.
SPEAKER_02 (11:29):
I can't personally whether they go into another
sort of paramedic-related job,like GP surgeries.
In our GP surgeries, a lot ofparamedics work in there,
prescribing and seeing patientsin GPs.
That's quite a common one forpeople to go into.
But most people, if you askanyone, I think in an ambulance
service, are they looking foranother job?
They probably are.
SPEAKER_00 (11:48):
And that's what I find in here too.
And the you know, like in in thein the private ambulance, you
either get the re the repeatpeople who need the same drive
to whatever, but you don't getto do the stuff that maybe is
more interesting sometimes, andyou get repetitive and
repetitive and repetitive.
(12:08):
And then there's so much traumasomeone can see before they get
sick of it, too.
SPEAKER_02 (12:13):
Yeah, I wanted to be a critical care paramedic.
That's what I wanted to do whenI first became a paramedic, but
I don't think I could handleseeing that all the time.
It's all you do, it's justtrauma.
It's all the go-to.
It's trauma and you know, thedead and the dying constantly.
And I don't know if I could dothat.
I I I'd be very I think I'd bevery good at it.
Um I was very good at thingslike that, but I just don't
(12:35):
think like mentally it's worthit.
Person, I just don't think itis.
SPEAKER_00 (12:39):
And I think it's all about what you knowing yourself
is key because you know, like Ihad to see one dead body in my
life, I was all good.
Didn't need to see any more.
I was all set, and even youknow, like that's what I tell
people.
I saw one, I'm good.
I'm not talking about a funeral,I'm just talking about you know
having to go to a call.
I've seen a hanging, I'm allset.
No need on any other hanging,I'm good.
(13:00):
Overdose on pills, seen that.
Like, name it, I probably havebeen either involved or seen it
myself.
I think that you learn copingmechanisms.
And for me, what I findfascinating is some of these
guys who do well in their careerfor a long period of time and
they see all this blood and gutguts, so to speak.
They're like, How do you put upwith people telling you their
(13:21):
story and their trauma all thetime?
To me, that's nothing.
That's easy.
That's the easy part.
Going to a scene regularly,that's not something I want to
do.
That would be too traumatic forme.
So I think that's somethingthat's also the trauma that
works for you.
But go ahead.
SPEAKER_02 (13:34):
Yeah, I mean, secondhand trauma and hearing it
is just as traumatic over time.
It's one of those things thatbuilds up, isn't it?
Rather than an initial episode,like if you saw it.
But I don't know, I I alwaysthought I was very resilient.
There's nothing wrong with youknow not being able to handle
certain things, but I alwaysthought I was very resilient,
and I probably still am, but Ithink that that incident just
(13:58):
knocked me off completely.
I don't think I can like lookpast the effect it had now.
It makes me nervous.
Like, what if something elsehappened and the effect was
more?
You know, like if I didn't getthat therapy, what would have
happened after eight weeks?
I d I don't know.
I was having such severesymptoms.
Like they were really bad.
(14:18):
Like I was, you know, I washanging in the window in my mind
while sitting in the livingroom.
You know, I couldn't couldn'tleave the house for the the bad
symptoms.
It's not just a bit of anxiety,you know, they were really
intrusive thoughts and thatactually said too.
Yeah, I was having full-blownpanic attacks because I went to
take my bike.
I I'd just got a bike and Ithought, you know what, I'll go
for a bike ride, you know,because I I put the bike out the
(14:41):
front door and just had a panicattack because the thought of
taking this bike out and gettingout of breath, and it was just
like silly stuff, like nothing,over nothing.
I just couldn't go anywhere, Icouldn't do anything.
So if if I didn't have therapy,I don't know how I would have
had a medication as well, whichI just came off of.
So I was on the medication,yeah, probably about six months.
(15:02):
Um and I just came off of that,but I don't know what I would
have ended up like in anotherfive weeks waiting for therapy.
So I think that made me nervous.
I think it knocked me, and nowI've got a bit of anxiety, I
think, over how I cope withthings.
SPEAKER_00 (15:26):
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(15:48):
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(16:12):
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Now, right back to the episode.
So speaking of which, one of thethings you mentioned a few
times, and it's something I wantto talk about, is coping
mechanisms.
(16:33):
Because you're gonna, you know,coping mechanisms are so key, in
my opinion, to this type ofenvironment.
And uh for the record, in caseanyone asks, and I know some I
have some smart ass as peoplewho listen to this, alcohol is
not a solution despite being EOHis not a solution.
But we need coping mechanismsthat are not like that.
SPEAKER_02 (16:56):
Yes, that are not gonna hurt you further.
SPEAKER_00 (16:59):
Exactly.
So do you have any type ofcoping mechanisms that you
suggest or that you've used onthe front uh in the front line
that helped you?
SPEAKER_02 (17:07):
And the main one is talking to other people, which
is well like one of the reasonsI've doing this, because I think
sharing how and and the amountof times I mentioned it to
someone at work and they told mea similar story they had, a
similar event, a similar timeduring work that they'd had the
same thing.
And I was like, okay, so I'm notlike actually going crazy, like
(17:28):
this is quite a normal response.
Whereas I if I hadn't spoken topeople, I probably would have
thought that I was, you know,having some really silly
response and I was beingridiculous, and they made it
like grounded it and made mewhat's the word?
You know, made it normal for me,like a normal response.
They made me realize that's anormal response.
And I spoke to family and Ispoke to my brother, and he is a
(17:51):
fireman, and he'd gone tosomething and had a similar
response, and I never knew aboutit.
And I spoke, I spoke to him, Iwas telling him like what was
happening, the symptoms I washaving, I couldn't leave the
house.
And he said he had the samething, and that helped so much
just talking to someone else whohad been through it, and talking
to people that haven't beenthrough it, it's better if
they've been through it.
But talking to other justtalking to anyone about it
(18:12):
really helped, and knowing whensomething's not right.
So the fact that I was gettinganxious whilst doing my job, so
the point where I gave amedication error, that was not
normal for me.
Like that's not something I do.
So I think recognizing that andtaking time off work was really
important to cope with it sothat I could, you know, figure
(18:33):
out what I needed to do next.
And that was to speak to mymanagers, to ask for help and to
get, you know, therapy startedand to have an occupational
therapy assessment.
I think a lot of people sit onthese signs and don't know
you've got to haveself-awareness, I think is like
the key words.
Self-awareness.
SPEAKER_00 (18:49):
Self-awareness is so key for coping mechanisms and
knowing where you're at.
I agree a hundred percent.
SPEAKER_02 (18:54):
Yeah.
So I think having self-awarenessand like good insight into who
you are and how you cope withthings is key.
SPEAKER_00 (19:01):
One of the conversations I would argue, and
this is something that you youtell me how it is in England in
the United States, too.
This is not something thatpeople like to do.
But for me personally, I thinkit's also it sounds terrible the
way I'm gonna say it, butcalling out people.
Hey, Emma, you're done lookinggood.
What's going on?
SPEAKER_03 (19:19):
Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely.
SPEAKER_00 (19:21):
Having someone who calls you out on it, as much as
it will create a defensemechanism in you, the coping
mechanism is like shit, someonedid actually care to ask me.
SPEAKER_02 (19:30):
Yeah, and we we have quite a good culture on my
station at least.
We had quite a good culturewhere you can, if you're worried
about someone, you know, it'snot snitching if you go and tell
someone about it.
You know, people actuallyappreciate if you maybe if you
don't feel comfortable askingthem, if you went to a manager
and say, look, they're just notacting quite how they normally
would, or you know, I'm a bitworried about them.
(19:51):
That was actually something thatI think most people would
appreciate in the workplace.
It's not like uh you've gonebehind my back and most people
would appreciate that.
But I think it was also a worklike a culture where you could
just approach people anyway.
Like I feel like even if Ididn't know someone very well, I
could say, like, are you okay?
Like, what's going on?
And my my crewmate, when I wason the when I did the drug era,
(20:15):
he actually recognised I'd onlyworked with him a few times, but
he recognised that this wasn'tlike right, and I was talking to
him and he was like, you know,and then I spoke to one of like
my best friends at work, andshe's friends with him, and he
was talking to her, and then Ispoke to her, and they were
like, Yeah, you need to go andso they supported me as well to
make that decision, and andyeah, recognizing behavior
(20:36):
changes in people you know isreally important.
I think my boyfriend actuallywas the one that said you need
to I think you've got some sortof like PTSD or something
because of the so he evenrecognized it and he you know
he's not medical at all, heworks for Google, so he's like
the le the least medical personin the world.
SPEAKER_00 (20:54):
Yeah, well I was gonna say like uh he cares
enough for you that way, hold onto it.
SPEAKER_02 (20:58):
Yeah, he noticed it.
He noticed I was irritable andyou know, things that I'm quite
a happy-go-lucky personnormally.
I'm quite relaxed, but yeah, Iwas irritable in the house, you
know, I was barely leaving.
So he picked up on those things,and that helped as well.
SPEAKER_00 (21:15):
I was gonna joke around.
There's easygoing people inEngland.
Shocker.
SPEAKER_02 (21:19):
There's not many.
SPEAKER_00 (21:20):
Sorry, I maybe it's just me.
Sorry, I pick on every culturesequally.
SPEAKER_02 (21:24):
We love a good confrontation here, don't we?
SPEAKER_00 (21:27):
Yes, but but but you know, like Americans are not
used to that.
They see the stereotype andthey're like, oh my god.
And I'm like, no, they're notconfronting me.
SPEAKER_02 (21:38):
But I feel like Americans do as well, though.
SPEAKER_00 (21:41):
No, the difference is that if you tell me some
opinion I don't agree with, youwon't care and you won't try to
convince me.
Oh yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
If we stop doing that, that'd behelpful.
SPEAKER_02 (21:52):
Just agree to disagree.
That's quite a common phrasehere.
We say we'll just agree todisagree, and that's the end of
the conversation.
SPEAKER_00 (21:57):
I mean, I I I grew up in Canada and I'm a French
speaker first before I'mEnglish.
So believe me, I've had enoughconflict with English in in my
cr my lifetime.
And yet we still haven't, youknow, I've never shot someone.
I've never hurt someone.
Why?
Because we agree to disagree andwe move on.
We don't need to move on.
SPEAKER_02 (22:15):
Yeah, no.
SPEAKER_00 (22:16):
So I don't know.
I don't know.
SPEAKER_02 (22:18):
Work on the ambulance service in a town here
and have a fight with the drunkperson and maybe you'll
disagree.
But it's they can be veryexpressive and very stubborn.
SPEAKER_00 (22:27):
But you talked about coping mechanisms earlier.
I think that's another greatcoping mechanism is saying, hey,
listen, I don't agree with you.
You're not going to agree withme.
We can still talk to each other.
We're just not going to agree.
To me that's the other copingmechanism too is that yes you
need people.
SPEAKER_02 (22:42):
You need to be able to right people.
SPEAKER_00 (22:44):
Right.
But you also need to be able tobe open to that conversation
both sides.
SPEAKER_02 (22:49):
Because you got to be open to people saying things
you don't want to hear.
SPEAKER_00 (22:53):
And I think that that's the biggest barrier here
because I find that some placessomeone will be like you know
Emma's not doing good.
Oh did you tell her that no no Iwant you to say it.
Why me?
Why can't you go tell Emma?
Oh I don't know if she's goingto take it well.
Who gives a shit if she takes itwell or not?
Go talk to her.
Yeah.
At least you know you've toldher yeah if you say to her you
(23:15):
look like shit that's probablynot the best way to say it.
Say hey Emma, you know what youhaven't been yourself lately.
You're kind of like actingdifferently and I don't really
know you well are you okay?
SPEAKER_02 (23:24):
I think most people would respect and appreciate
someone doing that wouldn'tthey?
I know I would.
SPEAKER_00 (23:29):
And you well I would too and I think there's a lot of
people here who will never sayon record that that's what they
want.
But sometimes when they theywould appreciate it.
SPEAKER_02 (23:38):
And even they might give a stress response you know
people might not respond well toit but I think deep down that
will help them in some way.
SPEAKER_00 (23:47):
How many times have I heard someone ask that
question hey you're not youdon't look good.
What's going on?
They leave but because they openthat door three four hours later
three four days later rollingdoesn't it yeah yeah I think
that that's another great copingmechanism tell people when
they're not doing good and askthem what they're doing and if
they need support.
I think that the culture is notthere.
(24:07):
Around here you know we recentlyhad a few months ago there's a
woman who had just become apolice officer and had some
mental health issues but didn'tknow who to turn to and
unfortunately committed suicide.
And you know I if she knew whoto reach out to or people would
she would have been open togetting reached out I don't know
(24:27):
and I don't want to blame themin any way shape or form.
But the environment here is ifyou can't handle it the first
year, what type of policeofficer, firefighter, paramedic
MMT dispatcher are you going tobe?
I think there's a culture shiftthat has to occur that yeah
maybe they didn't handle thisone right but give them five
years.
If you can't handle it for fiveyears then we'll have a
conversation.
SPEAKER_02 (24:47):
I think the culture I mean in our ambulance service
I think has improved massively Imean since I joined so yeah I've
been in there I guess in thelast six seven years that's
pretty new and recent you knowit's been it's been around a
long time.
There's people that have been inthe ambulance service 30 years
on my station I don't know howthey've done it.
But I think since I joined I'vealways found I don't know if
(25:10):
that's just the energy I giveout as well and you know the
respect I give off but I'vealways found people to be very
respectful and supportive of meand of other people and I know
there's there's always going tobe bullying there's always going
to be racism there's alwaysgoing to be hatred somewhere
it's always going to happen.
There's always going to besomeone that does that.
But I think and I'm obviously ofa privileged position you know
(25:31):
I'm a white female who you knowI'm not going to come across a
lot of that you know but neverdid I ever have anyone you know
laugh at me for getting upset ona job or you know take the mick
out of anyone's trauma.
Everyone was very supportive andvery you know the smallest thing
can bring on some trauma or makeyou upset and people were very
supportive of that which I don'tthink it always used to be like
(25:54):
it used to be like you don't getupset about things and and I
think we still think that Ithink that's why I had that
traumatic response and thethoughts that why did I act like
that I think we still expectourselves to be able to handle
things.
But yeah I think as a servicethey don't have that culture
definitely not as much anymorewhich is good.
SPEAKER_00 (26:13):
I mean I haven't I've I I've only been doing this
for about 27 years give or takeand I've seen a shift like in
the culture in this time.
I'm saying that there's a lot ofimprovements to be had but at
the same time I've seen but I'veseen this sexual harassment is
still rough like that'ssomething they need to that
never happens women do not getharassed in their job of course
(26:34):
not.
SPEAKER_02 (26:35):
I actually that was another thing I had to deal with
in the new ambulance servicewhich in CCAM which didn't help
I think with me not enjoying itthe last two years I ended up as
part of a to be fair I wasn'teven a big part of it but I was
I was working with a guy he sentsome inappropriate comments it
was the first it was my firstshift on that station.
He was the first person I'd metand um he didn't say anything
(26:57):
about me personally but it wasabout like his sex life and
stuff.
And you know it's like thismakes me feel uncomfortable.
I sort of left it because itwasn't anything about me and I
thought maybe he's just a bityou know too open.
And then I spoke to a coupleother females and one of them
she's my friend now she had aworse experience with him and
hadn't really spoken to anyoneabout it and I was like oh this
isn't sounding good and then youknow it turned out there was
(27:19):
another person.
So I was like we need to go andlike speak to someone so I sort
of got the ball rolling on thatand said you know you need to
come with me and and we reportedit and so we ended up with a
whole incident there whichprobably didn't help.
But that you know that andSoutheast Coast ambulance
services in the news now forsomeone that's been fired you
know sexual misconduct againststudents it it happens more
(27:43):
often than you'd think.
SPEAKER_00 (27:45):
I mean it's not quite omerta but it's a version
of Omerta if you ask me of likedon't talk about it.
SPEAKER_02 (27:53):
Yeah it is please don't talk about it.
And when we reported it it wasall dealt with appropriately but
my the manager of the station hehe called us in and thanked us
for reporting it and he saidwe've we've been aware of his
conduct for years and no one'sdone anything and it wasn't
until you guys actually cameforward he said I think
(28:14):
everybody's been aware of iteverybody talks about it but no
one reports it and he said weneed to be acting on
conversations we're hearing notjust people that are reporting
it so he you know thanked us forreporting it but he said sorry
we hadn't dealt with it soonerso that you had to feel the need
to report it.
I think when you're hearingtalks around the station as a
manager you need to act on thoseand not just wait for someone to
(28:35):
file a report well if you ask meif there's smoke there's fire.
And if you hear smoke everyoneknew what he was like you know
there's nowhere which is why Ireported it because it's not
it's not one off thing.
SPEAKER_00 (28:49):
Yeah and I didn't want to do a firefighter analogy
but here we are my brother willlove it.
But yeah no I think that that'swhat I I kind of tell people is
that don't wait you don't needto have proof if there's smoke
I'm not gonna say I'll wait tillthe fire that like the the
flames really show up before Iget upset.
No bring it up and that'simportant and again sorry to and
(29:12):
if it this offends anyone Ifrankly don't care.
Women in the service ofparamedics EMTs fire and police
get a lot more sexual harassmentthan they let on and no yeah
they put up just goes about it.
SPEAKER_02 (29:26):
And I think it depends what you'd put up with I
would put up with a certainlevel like you know if someone's
if I know someone's a goodperson and they're just joking
around or you know there'ssomeone a bit older and that's
just how they're used to talkingbut I know they're completely
harmless.
You know things like that.
There's like a certain level ofbanter I can have I'm very good
at having sort of banter andknowing someone's character but
when I don't know you and I'venever met you and you're telling
(29:48):
me these horrible things aboutyour sex life like that's
creepy.
Don't do it I don't know whatyou're like I'm stuck in an
ambulance with you for 12 hours.
SPEAKER_00 (29:56):
And it's not it's no longer banter.
SPEAKER_02 (29:58):
No it's not it's just awkward.
SPEAKER_00 (30:00):
I can banter with the best of them but when it
gets awkward and you know I Itell people you know you banter
like that with someone you knownot someone you don't know.
And I'll uh I'll finish on mylittle rant here by saying yeah
if it smells like a rose andlooks like a rose you don't need
to be pricked to know it's arose but if it smells like shit
and looks like shit you don'tneed to lick it to know it's
(30:20):
shit.
So therefore if it feelsuncomfortable say something.
Because it's uncomfortable.
It doesn't mean like it mightget comfortable eventually.
Yeah so I agree.
I mean having done this greatanalogy that people always go
like how can we reach you?
I mean this is about we we'vegone for about an hour which is
really great but I would like toknow how people can reach you.
SPEAKER_02 (30:43):
Yeah I have Instagram okay bear with me
because I don't actually knowwhat it is so just bear with me.
I'm on Facebook Emma Irwin ifanyone wants to send me an email
like if anyone wants to talkabout anything that I'm always
open for a conversation ifanyone's experienced anything
like I have and they just wantto talk to someone that's been
through something similar youcan email me.
SPEAKER_00 (31:03):
Do you want me to just say my email you can send
it to me and I'll put it in theshow notes.
Yeah I'll send it to you andwe'll put it in the show notes
I'll put like my Instagram myemail and I've got a my own
podcast um it's a true crimepodcast so I'll I'll send that
it's called the last and thelost that I'm that that
fascinates a lot of people hereso yeah I'll send that over as
well I know there's loads outthere these days so we'll see if
(31:25):
I can my girlfriend willprobably just listen to it
because uh you you said you hadone so that's yeah that's how it
is I'll send yeah I'll send itall over well I'll go listen to
it too actually so what's thename of the podcast?
SPEAKER_02 (31:37):
The Last and the Lost.
SPEAKER_00 (31:39):
So we'll put that in the show notes everything if you
want to reach her but you knowEmma I I gotta tell you that I
did not expect like I you knowyou meet someone online you're
like how is it gonna be thishour flew by it was a great
conversation and trulyappreciate your candor and I
hope some people are listeningare going to appreciate it too
so thank you for your time.
(31:59):
Hopefully that's yeah that's whyI'm here just hopefully someone
hears it and it helps someoneand you can go to England and
know how things go there whichI'll show you around show you
around Ashford and and just toput a little cherry on top here
don't go don't go to OxfordUniversity it'll get spit on
anyway.
(32:21):
Have a great rest of the day andthank you for your time.
SPEAKER_01 (32:24):
Thanks for having me please like subscribe and follow
this podcast on your favoriteplatform a glowing review is
always helpful.
And as a reminder this podcastis for informational educational
and entertainment purposes onlyif you're struggling with a
mental health or substance abuseissue please reach out to a
(32:44):
professional counselor forconsultation.
If you are in a mental healthcrisis call 988 for assistance
this number is available in theUnited States and Canada
Welcome to Resilience Development in Action
with Steve Bisson.
This is the podcast dedicated tofirst responder mental health,
helping police, fire, EMS,dispatchers, and paramedics
create better growthenvironments for themselves and
their teams.
Let's get started.
SPEAKER_03 (00:29):
And we're back.
SPEAKER_00 (00:30):
And Emmer Emmer Irving, I gotta get her name
right, on Resilience Developmentand Action.
We're talking about suicide.
We're talking about we were justhaving a conversation about
finding someone who was hanging.
It was just known as a death,and suddenly you show up, it's a
hanging with young kids, and younever cry on scene.
And it sounds crazy, but thatwas difficult for you and
whatever.
SPEAKER_02 (00:51):
But that's the issue I had, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (00:52):
Okay, so let me start off.
And this goes not just for you.
I'm talking to the audience too,because a lot of them are first
responders, but I'm gonna lookyou in the eye.
Of course, it's not fuckingcrazy.
You just saw someone who diedand died on their own in front
of their fucking kids.
Sorry.
SPEAKER_02 (01:06):
And I would say that to someone else.
Yeah, I would say that tosomeone else.
That's my normal response.
SPEAKER_00 (01:10):
It's a normal response to an abnormal
situation.
And yes, civilians may not likewould be, I get that they would
be really because they're notused to that stuff.
In your particular case, it'ssomething that you deal with,
but it's an abnormal situation.
Yeah, one of the things thatpeople do is like, oh, it's an
abnormal situation I reactednormally to, therefore I'm
crazy.
It makes no sense to mewhatsoever.
SPEAKER_02 (01:32):
I think it's it's because in our roles as a
frontline worker, fireman,police, paramedic, whatever you
are.
I think you're you expect youyou sort of have this what's the
word I'm looking for?
You don't expect to react thatway.
You're expected to deal with itand and to to manage it and to
be calm and to be calm foreveryone else on scene.
And I think I didn't I wasn'tembarrassed.
(01:53):
It wasn't that I was embarrassedabout crying, because I know
that I'm allowed to get upsetabout things.
I think it was the fact that Igot emotional so suddenly, like
I didn't have time to leave theroom, I was in front of people,
and I wasn't expecting the likeoverwhelming emotion.
And I only found out that thiswas the cause of I'll tell you
some of my symptoms I had after,but I only found out during
(02:15):
therapy I had EDMR therapy,which is the sort of rapid eye
movement therapy.
SPEAKER_00 (02:21):
The MDR is something I do myself, so I know exactly
what it is.
SPEAKER_02 (02:24):
Yeah, so I had that and I only needed one or two
sessions because it was that oneepisode, it wasn't so trauma.
SPEAKER_00 (02:31):
Not that I want you to have one, but so lucky it was
just one.
SPEAKER_02 (02:34):
Yeah, I only had a couple of uh sessions and we
addressed the it so after thisevent, for a couple of weeks I
was sort of okay.
I was thinking about it as youdo with one of those.
It wasn't there was nothing.
So I think what's important isas soon as we finished that job,
we were gonna head back tostation for sort of a debrief,
but we got a cardiac arrest torode over, so that I then had to
(02:56):
go and do another cardiac arrestand he passed.
And that was more of an elderlyperson, sort of quite unwell
when expected.
So, but I think going straightinto another job didn't help.
And I think we reflected in mytherapy that a debrief is very
important and should havehappened in this situation.
I shouldn't have been allowed togo to another job, but you know,
(03:17):
you can't say no when it's theroad over, can you?
You just you you can't in thatmoment, and that's where
management should have said nofor us, I think, in that
situation.
But yeah, in a couple of weeksafter I felt okay, and then a
few weeks down the line, Istarted getting very anxious at
work, and I'm a very confidentperson at work, and I start
getting very anxious, and withmy abilities, my decision making
(03:39):
sort of internally, and I gave adrug error because I was so
anxious.
No one was injured.
It was a lady having she wasn'tanaphylactic, but she was having
a severe allergic reaction, andI gave her I am adrenaline and
we're supposed to split the dosewith five minutes intervals in
between.
I gave her the full dose, so shejust felt very sick, she felt
(04:00):
very sick, vomited.
Other than that, she was fineand she thanked me for feeling
better.
So we were all okay, but I'venever done that before, and I
knew that I'd done that becauseI was getting very anxious, and
that for me meant something wasvery wrong.
And from then I went off work,and I think that's how I
recognized it.
So I went off sick, and fromthen it just sort of spiraled,
(04:21):
really.
I had I was having panic attacksleaving the house, I was seeing
bad things wherever I went.
You know, I'd walk up to theshop and I was seeing car
accidents happening, you know,not necessarily relating to
hangings, but someone droppingdead in front of me.
It was like everything justkicked up.
And I had this, I have the samewindow that she had at home, and
I was imagining myself hangingin the window.
(04:44):
And I did one of my assessmentswith occupational therapy when I
was off and to go through to thetherapy, and they said, you
know, have you been suicidal?
And I said, Well, no, like I'vebeen seeing these visions, but
I'm not suicide.
Like, I don't want to die, but Ijust had such like intrusive
thoughts, I guess it is likereally intrusive thoughts.
And yeah, I was off for abouteight weeks and had the EDMR,
(05:06):
and through that and replayingthe scene, I was having panic
attacks when I was getting outof breath, and it was all
internal, it was all me losingcontrol of the on the on scene
and crying.
I lost control of my emotions,and that's what it all came down
to.
And so all my symptoms afterwere me feeling out of control
(05:26):
and losing control of you know,feeling out of breath, walking
up a hill or like or you know,not controlling what's going on
around me and how people aredriving around me.
It was just such random things,but it all came down to like a
lack of control because I'dcried on scene, which I just
find really interesting.
SPEAKER_00 (05:46):
Well I do too, because I I hear the lack of
control.
And I don't want to do yourtherapy, so I gotta be mindful
here, so I gotta walk a line.
But I see the lack of control,but I also see this oh my god,
shouldn't I be able to handlethis?
Shouldn't I be able to do this?
SPEAKER_03 (06:06):
Shouldn't I be like this lack of my case?
SPEAKER_00 (06:10):
Confidence played a factor because you know, the
other part too that I think inour field, and you correct me if
I'm wrong, I encourage myofficers, firefighters,
paramedics, emts, dispatch.
I say, look, there's somethingcalled passive suicidality.
You don't want to die, butyou're like, I wish sometimes I
wasn't here, or I had thesevisions sometimes that I'm dead.
(06:32):
And people are like, Oh, you'regonna take my gun away, you're
gonna do this, you're gonna no,you need to be honest about
these things so you can getthrough to the other side.
SPEAKER_02 (06:40):
Yeah, it doesn't mean you want it.
Yeah, it was just yeah, justthese visions, but things really
spiraled then.
And but I knew I'd luckily I'dpicked up that something wasn't
right because of how anxious Iwas feeling before that.
So I was off and I'd already gotthe ball rolling on on therapy.
And through work, I think Ithink my manager put in for the
(07:00):
therapy, and um two weeks laterI had my first session.
So it yeah, it was super quick.
And I was off eight weeks intotal, and then after that, I
loved being a paramedic.
I really did, but I think movingto a new service, and then
within two years, all of thishappening, I think just sort of
ruined it for me.
I wasn't I I wasn't really thatgood friends with anyone there.
(07:20):
I hadn't really fully settled,and I'd moved from one station
to another, so I'd only have anygear at the station I was at,
and I don't think there wasenough people around me that I
was close to in order for me tostay.
I think what I was in London forsix years, and I was I had a lot
of good friends in London and Iwas really close to people in
London.
I think if I'd have been there,I might have stayed after all of
this.
But I think just being where Iwas, I just didn't feel
(07:42):
comfortable enough, and it justyeah, it just put me off.
I don't know, it's not I don'tknow, maybe I just lost
confidence in myself, but I I Ifound other things that I want
to do more in life.
I love dogs, I've got my dog,I'll send you some pictures.
SPEAKER_00 (07:59):
There's a lot of dog lovers here.
SPEAKER_02 (08:00):
If I don't put up pictures, so I decided I wanted
to walk dogs and get someexercise and keep bits.
So I went part-time at work umas a paramedic and I opened a
little dog walking business andI started walking dogs
part-time, but with shift workthat didn't really work out, and
I thought, you know, I've got tothink about what's good for me
in life.
And I thought, you know, doingshift work and and carrying on
(08:23):
as a paramedic isn't what I'mgonna enjoy anymore.
I don't enjoy it, so yeah, Ileft, but I didn't want to lose
being a paramedic, you know, incase one day I want to go back
to it, so the job I'm doing nowmeans I can keep my registration
and I can walk dogs and I can dothings I enjoy, and I've got a
nine to five life, and yeah, I'menjoying it so far.
And there's no trauma.
SPEAKER_00 (08:43):
Right.
Well, debatable.
SPEAKER_02 (08:45):
But I don't have to sit in anyone's dirty house.
SPEAKER_00 (08:48):
I'm sorry, there's trauma everywhere in my opinion.
SPEAKER_02 (08:50):
That's there is okay, yeah.
No, I agree, I agree.
SPEAKER_00 (08:53):
My my one of my best mentors said to me says to me
and to a lot of people therapyexists for two reasons
unresolved grief or unresolvedtrauma.
If you take care of both ofthem, you probably will not need
therapy.
And to me, that's a greatmeasurement of what it is.
And I think that for keep yourlicense going and all that, I I
(09:14):
think that when you say you'renot close to everyone, that's
another conversation I had withother people who had trouble
with their work because youknow, you go to a call, maybe
you struggle you you had aproblem with it and all that,
then the next call comes in.
If you have no one on yourdepartment or, you know, on the
ambulance or in the company,whatever you call them, to kind
of like turn to, to talk to,then that makes the trauma
(09:38):
worse.
And sometimes it's finding thatif you don't have that, maybe it
is best for you to either findanother place or, like you said,
keep your paramedic, dosomething different.
SPEAKER_02 (09:47):
Yeah, try something different, do something you want
to do.
Yeah, don't get me wrong, theywere very supportive, like they
were very good about everything.
The welfare was great for me.
unknown (09:56):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (09:57):
But yeah, I just didn't I just didn't feel
comfortable in the positionanymore.
I think after like six, sevenyears, I feel like that's
enough.
Like you've seen it all.
It's so exciting when you firststart, isn't it?
You know, blood, guts, gore,like drive fast, fast driving,
blue lights like you want to doit all, you want to see
everything.
Oh, I wanted to hang in sobadly.
It sounds awful, but I just Iwanted to go to these.
SPEAKER_00 (10:18):
If I had a dime for every time I heard that, I'd be
I I have about a ten dollar billhere.
SPEAKER_02 (10:22):
And now, like six years later, it's like I don't I
don't want to do any of it.
And you know, you've either gotthe blood guts gore trauma
stuff, which I you know I'veseen it all now, and it's just
every time you go, it just makesyou a bit sadder.
And then the rest of it just isrelatively boring to me now.
There's just there's no middleground.
(10:44):
It's either people that don'tneed an ambulance or it's
traumatizing jobs, and I thinkI've had enough of that.
SPEAKER_00 (10:50):
Well, I think that that's so common a lot of
people, like you say, you know,the blood and core and all that,
and oh, I want to see my firsthanging and this and that, and
that's not uncommon.
I hear that all the time.
SPEAKER_02 (11:00):
Like more than that.
SPEAKER_00 (11:01):
Until you do see them.
SPEAKER_02 (11:03):
Yeah, and then you're like, I don't know,
actually.
But um, I don't know what it'slike in America, but in uh in
England, in London, especiallythe like retention rate for
staff is about six years beforethey leave.
SPEAKER_00 (11:15):
Oh, yeah.
Well, I don't know the numbersfor the private ambulances
around here, that's what theycall them for, you know, if
you're working but the numberscan be good.
I mean, I I think about thepeople I know.
I can't think of anyone whostayed more than two years.
SPEAKER_02 (11:29):
I can't personally whether they go into another
sort of paramedic-related job,like GP surgeries.
In our GP surgeries, a lot ofparamedics work in there,
prescribing and seeing patientsin GPs.
That's quite a common one forpeople to go into.
But most people, if you askanyone, I think in an ambulance
service, are they looking foranother job?
They probably are.
SPEAKER_00 (11:48):
And that's what I find in here too.
And the you know, like in in thein the private ambulance, you
either get the re the repeatpeople who need the same drive
to whatever, but you don't getto do the stuff that maybe is
more interesting sometimes, andyou get repetitive and
repetitive and repetitive.
(12:08):
And then there's so much traumasomeone can see before they get
sick of it, too.
SPEAKER_02 (12:13):
Yeah, I wanted to be a critical care paramedic.
That's what I wanted to do whenI first became a paramedic, but
I don't think I could handleseeing that all the time.
It's all you do, it's justtrauma.
It's all the go-to.
It's trauma and you know, thedead and the dying constantly.
And I don't know if I could dothat.
I I I'd be very I think I'd bevery good at it.
Um I was very good at thingslike that, but I just don't
(12:35):
think like mentally it's worthit.
Person, I just don't think itis.
SPEAKER_00 (12:39):
And I think it's all about what you knowing yourself
is key because you know, like Ihad to see one dead body in my
life, I was all good.
Didn't need to see any more.
I was all set, and even youknow, like that's what I tell
people.
I saw one, I'm good.
I'm not talking about a funeral,I'm just talking about you know
having to go to a call.
I've seen a hanging, I'm allset.
No need on any other hanging,I'm good.
(13:00):
Overdose on pills, seen that.
Like, name it, I probably havebeen either involved or seen it
myself.
I think that you learn copingmechanisms.
And for me, what I findfascinating is some of these
guys who do well in their careerfor a long period of time and
they see all this blood and gutguts, so to speak.
They're like, How do you put upwith people telling you their
(13:21):
story and their trauma all thetime?
To me, that's nothing.
That's easy.
That's the easy part.
Going to a scene regularly,that's not something I want to
do.
That would be too traumatic forme.
So I think that's somethingthat's also the trauma that
works for you.
But go ahead.
SPEAKER_02 (13:34):
Yeah, I mean, secondhand trauma and hearing it
is just as traumatic over time.
It's one of those things thatbuilds up, isn't it?
Rather than an initial episode,like if you saw it.
But I don't know, I I alwaysthought I was very resilient.
There's nothing wrong with youknow not being able to handle
certain things, but I alwaysthought I was very resilient,
and I probably still am, but Ithink that that incident just
(13:58):
knocked me off completely.
I don't think I can like lookpast the effect it had now.
It makes me nervous.
Like, what if something elsehappened and the effect was
more?
You know, like if I didn't getthat therapy, what would have
happened after eight weeks?
I d I don't know.
I was having such severesymptoms.
Like they were really bad.
(14:18):
Like I was, you know, I washanging in the window in my mind
while sitting in the livingroom.
You know, I couldn't couldn'tleave the house for the the bad
symptoms.
It's not just a bit of anxiety,you know, they were really
intrusive thoughts and thatactually said too.
Yeah, I was having full-blownpanic attacks because I went to
take my bike.
I I'd just got a bike and Ithought, you know what, I'll go
for a bike ride, you know,because I I put the bike out the
(14:41):
front door and just had a panicattack because the thought of
taking this bike out and gettingout of breath, and it was just
like silly stuff, like nothing,over nothing.
I just couldn't go anywhere, Icouldn't do anything.
So if if I didn't have therapy,I don't know how I would have
had a medication as well, whichI just came off of.
So I was on the medication,yeah, probably about six months.
(15:02):
Um and I just came off of that,but I don't know what I would
have ended up like in anotherfive weeks waiting for therapy.
So I think that made me nervous.
I think it knocked me, and nowI've got a bit of anxiety, I
think, over how I cope withthings.
SPEAKER_00 (15:26):
Just a quick break, guys.
I'm gonna talk about a newproduct that I really like.
I actually bought one of theirhoodies, it was amazing, and I
really enjoyed wearing it.
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And one thing that I genuinelylike about them is that they
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(15:48):
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I know they're talking to them.
They do a lot of initiatives andcollections that are based on
mental health for firstresponders.
And if you go there right nowand you buy anything, including
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(16:12):
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Go to DFIT.com, D-E-E-M-E-D F IT dot com and enjoy 15% off at
checkout to save.
Now, right back to the episode.
So speaking of which, one of thethings you mentioned a few
times, and it's something I wantto talk about, is coping
mechanisms.
(16:33):
Because you're gonna, you know,coping mechanisms are so key, in
my opinion, to this type ofenvironment.
And uh for the record, in caseanyone asks, and I know some I
have some smart ass as peoplewho listen to this, alcohol is
not a solution despite being EOHis not a solution.
But we need coping mechanismsthat are not like that.
SPEAKER_02 (16:56):
Yes, that are not gonna hurt you further.
SPEAKER_00 (16:59):
Exactly.
So do you have any type ofcoping mechanisms that you
suggest or that you've used onthe front uh in the front line
that helped you?
SPEAKER_02 (17:07):
And the main one is talking to other people, which
is well like one of the reasonsI've doing this, because I think
sharing how and and the amountof times I mentioned it to
someone at work and they told mea similar story they had, a
similar event, a similar timeduring work that they'd had the
same thing.
And I was like, okay, so I'm notlike actually going crazy, like
(17:28):
this is quite a normal response.
Whereas I if I hadn't spoken topeople, I probably would have
thought that I was, you know,having some really silly
response and I was beingridiculous, and they made it
like grounded it and made mewhat's the word?
You know, made it normal for me,like a normal response.
They made me realize that's anormal response.
And I spoke to family and Ispoke to my brother, and he is a
(17:51):
fireman, and he'd gone tosomething and had a similar
response, and I never knew aboutit.
And I spoke, I spoke to him, Iwas telling him like what was
happening, the symptoms I washaving, I couldn't leave the
house.
And he said he had the samething, and that helped so much
just talking to someone else whohad been through it, and talking
to people that haven't beenthrough it, it's better if
they've been through it.
But talking to other justtalking to anyone about it
(18:12):
really helped, and knowing whensomething's not right.
So the fact that I was gettinganxious whilst doing my job, so
the point where I gave amedication error, that was not
normal for me.
Like that's not something I do.
So I think recognizing that andtaking time off work was really
important to cope with it sothat I could, you know, figure
(18:33):
out what I needed to do next.
And that was to speak to mymanagers, to ask for help and to
get, you know, therapy startedand to have an occupational
therapy assessment.
I think a lot of people sit onthese signs and don't know
you've got to haveself-awareness, I think is like
the key words.
Self-awareness.
SPEAKER_00 (18:49):
Self-awareness is so key for coping mechanisms and
knowing where you're at.
I agree a hundred percent.
SPEAKER_02 (18:54):
Yeah.
So I think having self-awarenessand like good insight into who
you are and how you cope withthings is key.
SPEAKER_00 (19:01):
One of the conversations I would argue, and
this is something that you youtell me how it is in England in
the United States, too.
This is not something thatpeople like to do.
But for me personally, I thinkit's also it sounds terrible the
way I'm gonna say it, butcalling out people.
Hey, Emma, you're done lookinggood.
What's going on?
SPEAKER_03 (19:19):
Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely.
SPEAKER_00 (19:21):
Having someone who calls you out on it, as much as
it will create a defensemechanism in you, the coping
mechanism is like shit, someonedid actually care to ask me.
SPEAKER_02 (19:30):
Yeah, and we we have quite a good culture on my
station at least.
We had quite a good culturewhere you can, if you're worried
about someone, you know, it'snot snitching if you go and tell
someone about it.
You know, people actuallyappreciate if you maybe if you
don't feel comfortable askingthem, if you went to a manager
and say, look, they're just notacting quite how they normally
would, or you know, I'm a bitworried about them.
(19:51):
That was actually something thatI think most people would
appreciate in the workplace.
It's not like uh you've gonebehind my back and most people
would appreciate that.
But I think it was also a worklike a culture where you could
just approach people anyway.
Like I feel like even if Ididn't know someone very well, I
could say, like, are you okay?
Like, what's going on?
And my my crewmate, when I wason the when I did the drug era,
(20:15):
he actually recognised I'd onlyworked with him a few times, but
he recognised that this wasn'tlike right, and I was talking to
him and he was like, you know,and then I spoke to one of like
my best friends at work, andshe's friends with him, and he
was talking to her, and then Ispoke to her, and they were
like, Yeah, you need to go andso they supported me as well to
make that decision, and andyeah, recognizing behavior
(20:36):
changes in people you know isreally important.
I think my boyfriend actuallywas the one that said you need
to I think you've got some sortof like PTSD or something
because of the so he evenrecognized it and he you know
he's not medical at all, heworks for Google, so he's like
the le the least medical personin the world.
SPEAKER_00 (20:54):
Yeah, well I was gonna say like uh he cares
enough for you that way, hold onto it.
SPEAKER_02 (20:58):
Yeah, he noticed it.
He noticed I was irritable andyou know, things that I'm quite
a happy-go-lucky personnormally.
I'm quite relaxed, but yeah, Iwas irritable in the house, you
know, I was barely leaving.
So he picked up on those things,and that helped as well.
SPEAKER_00 (21:15):
I was gonna joke around.
There's easygoing people inEngland.
Shocker.
SPEAKER_02 (21:19):
There's not many.
SPEAKER_00 (21:20):
Sorry, I maybe it's just me.
Sorry, I pick on every culturesequally.
SPEAKER_02 (21:24):
We love a good confrontation here, don't we?
SPEAKER_00 (21:27):
Yes, but but but you know, like Americans are not
used to that.
They see the stereotype andthey're like, oh my god.
And I'm like, no, they're notconfronting me.
SPEAKER_02 (21:38):
But I feel like Americans do as well, though.
SPEAKER_00 (21:41):
No, the difference is that if you tell me some
opinion I don't agree with, youwon't care and you won't try to
convince me.
Oh yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
If we stop doing that, that'd behelpful.
SPEAKER_02 (21:52):
Just agree to disagree.
That's quite a common phrasehere.
We say we'll just agree todisagree, and that's the end of
the conversation.
SPEAKER_00 (21:57):
I mean, I I I grew up in Canada and I'm a French
speaker first before I'mEnglish.
So believe me, I've had enoughconflict with English in in my
cr my lifetime.
And yet we still haven't, youknow, I've never shot someone.
I've never hurt someone.
Why?
Because we agree to disagree andwe move on.
We don't need to move on.
SPEAKER_02 (22:15):
Yeah, no.
SPEAKER_00 (22:16):
So I don't know.
I don't know.
SPEAKER_02 (22:18):
Work on the ambulance service in a town here
and have a fight with the drunkperson and maybe you'll
disagree.
But it's they can be veryexpressive and very stubborn.
SPEAKER_00 (22:27):
But you talked about coping mechanisms earlier.
I think that's another greatcoping mechanism is saying, hey,
listen, I don't agree with you.
You're not going to agree withme.
We can still talk to each other.
We're just not going to agree.
To me that's the other copingmechanism too is that yes you
need people.
SPEAKER_02 (22:42):
You need to be able to right people.
SPEAKER_00 (22:44):
Right.
But you also need to be able tobe open to that conversation
both sides.
SPEAKER_02 (22:49):
Because you got to be open to people saying things
you don't want to hear.
SPEAKER_00 (22:53):
And I think that that's the biggest barrier here
because I find that some placessomeone will be like you know
Emma's not doing good.
Oh did you tell her that no no Iwant you to say it.
Why me?
Why can't you go tell Emma?
Oh I don't know if she's goingto take it well.
Who gives a shit if she takes itwell or not?
Go talk to her.
Yeah.
At least you know you've toldher yeah if you say to her you
(23:15):
look like shit that's probablynot the best way to say it.
Say hey Emma, you know what youhaven't been yourself lately.
You're kind of like actingdifferently and I don't really
know you well are you okay?
SPEAKER_02 (23:24):
I think most people would respect and appreciate
someone doing that wouldn'tthey?
I know I would.
SPEAKER_00 (23:29):
And you well I would too and I think there's a lot of
people here who will never sayon record that that's what they
want.
But sometimes when they theywould appreciate it.
SPEAKER_02 (23:38):
And even they might give a stress response you know
people might not respond well toit but I think deep down that
will help them in some way.
SPEAKER_00 (23:47):
How many times have I heard someone ask that
question hey you're not youdon't look good.
What's going on?
They leave but because they openthat door three four hours later
three four days later rollingdoesn't it yeah yeah I think
that that's another great copingmechanism tell people when
they're not doing good and askthem what they're doing and if
they need support.
I think that the culture is notthere.
(24:07):
Around here you know we recentlyhad a few months ago there's a
woman who had just become apolice officer and had some
mental health issues but didn'tknow who to turn to and
unfortunately committed suicide.
And you know I if she knew whoto reach out to or people would
she would have been open togetting reached out I don't know
(24:27):
and I don't want to blame themin any way shape or form.
But the environment here is ifyou can't handle it the first
year, what type of policeofficer, firefighter, paramedic
MMT dispatcher are you going tobe?
I think there's a culture shiftthat has to occur that yeah
maybe they didn't handle thisone right but give them five
years.
If you can't handle it for fiveyears then we'll have a
conversation.
SPEAKER_02 (24:47):
I think the culture I mean in our ambulance service
I think has improved massively Imean since I joined so yeah I've
been in there I guess in thelast six seven years that's
pretty new and recent you knowit's been it's been around a
long time.
There's people that have been inthe ambulance service 30 years
on my station I don't know howthey've done it.
But I think since I joined I'vealways found I don't know if
(25:10):
that's just the energy I giveout as well and you know the
respect I give off but I'vealways found people to be very
respectful and supportive of meand of other people and I know
there's there's always going tobe bullying there's always going
to be racism there's alwaysgoing to be hatred somewhere
it's always going to happen.
There's always going to besomeone that does that.
But I think and I'm obviously ofa privileged position you know
(25:31):
I'm a white female who you knowI'm not going to come across a
lot of that you know but neverdid I ever have anyone you know
laugh at me for getting upset ona job or you know take the mick
out of anyone's trauma.
Everyone was very supportive andvery you know the smallest thing
can bring on some trauma or makeyou upset and people were very
supportive of that which I don'tthink it always used to be like
(25:54):
it used to be like you don't getupset about things and and I
think we still think that Ithink that's why I had that
traumatic response and thethoughts that why did I act like
that I think we still expectourselves to be able to handle
things.
But yeah I think as a servicethey don't have that culture
definitely not as much anymorewhich is good.
SPEAKER_00 (26:13):
I mean I haven't I've I I've only been doing this
for about 27 years give or takeand I've seen a shift like in
the culture in this time.
I'm saying that there's a lot ofimprovements to be had but at
the same time I've seen but I'veseen this sexual harassment is
still rough like that'ssomething they need to that
never happens women do not getharassed in their job of course
(26:34):
not.
SPEAKER_02 (26:35):
I actually that was another thing I had to deal with
in the new ambulance servicewhich in CCAM which didn't help
I think with me not enjoying itthe last two years I ended up as
part of a to be fair I wasn'teven a big part of it but I was
I was working with a guy he sentsome inappropriate comments it
was the first it was my firstshift on that station.
He was the first person I'd metand um he didn't say anything
(26:57):
about me personally but it wasabout like his sex life and
stuff.
And you know it's like thismakes me feel uncomfortable.
I sort of left it because itwasn't anything about me and I
thought maybe he's just a bityou know too open.
And then I spoke to a coupleother females and one of them
she's my friend now she had aworse experience with him and
hadn't really spoken to anyoneabout it and I was like oh this
isn't sounding good and then youknow it turned out there was
(27:19):
another person.
So I was like we need to go andlike speak to someone so I sort
of got the ball rolling on thatand said you know you need to
come with me and and we reportedit and so we ended up with a
whole incident there whichprobably didn't help.
But that you know that andSoutheast Coast ambulance
services in the news now forsomeone that's been fired you
know sexual misconduct againststudents it it happens more
(27:43):
often than you'd think.
SPEAKER_00 (27:45):
I mean it's not quite omerta but it's a version
of Omerta if you ask me of likedon't talk about it.
SPEAKER_02 (27:53):
Yeah it is please don't talk about it.
And when we reported it it wasall dealt with appropriately but
my the manager of the station hehe called us in and thanked us
for reporting it and he saidwe've we've been aware of his
conduct for years and no one'sdone anything and it wasn't
until you guys actually cameforward he said I think
(28:14):
everybody's been aware of iteverybody talks about it but no
one reports it and he said weneed to be acting on
conversations we're hearing notjust people that are reporting
it so he you know thanked us forreporting it but he said sorry
we hadn't dealt with it soonerso that you had to feel the need
to report it.
I think when you're hearingtalks around the station as a
manager you need to act on thoseand not just wait for someone to
(28:35):
file a report well if you ask meif there's smoke there's fire.
And if you hear smoke everyoneknew what he was like you know
there's nowhere which is why Ireported it because it's not
it's not one off thing.
SPEAKER_00 (28:49):
Yeah and I didn't want to do a firefighter analogy
but here we are my brother willlove it.
But yeah no I think that that'swhat I I kind of tell people is
that don't wait you don't needto have proof if there's smoke
I'm not gonna say I'll wait tillthe fire that like the the
flames really show up before Iget upset.
No bring it up and that'simportant and again sorry to and
(29:12):
if it this offends anyone Ifrankly don't care.
Women in the service ofparamedics EMTs fire and police
get a lot more sexual harassmentthan they let on and no yeah
they put up just goes about it.
SPEAKER_02 (29:26):
And I think it depends what you'd put up with I
would put up with a certainlevel like you know if someone's
if I know someone's a goodperson and they're just joking
around or you know there'ssomeone a bit older and that's
just how they're used to talkingbut I know they're completely
harmless.
You know things like that.
There's like a certain level ofbanter I can have I'm very good
at having sort of banter andknowing someone's character but
when I don't know you and I'venever met you and you're telling
(29:48):
me these horrible things aboutyour sex life like that's
creepy.
Don't do it I don't know whatyou're like I'm stuck in an
ambulance with you for 12 hours.
SPEAKER_00 (29:56):
And it's not it's no longer banter.
SPEAKER_02 (29:58):
No it's not it's just awkward.
SPEAKER_00 (30:00):
I can banter with the best of them but when it
gets awkward and you know I Itell people you know you banter
like that with someone you knownot someone you don't know.
And I'll uh I'll finish on mylittle rant here by saying yeah
if it smells like a rose andlooks like a rose you don't need
to be pricked to know it's arose but if it smells like shit
and looks like shit you don'tneed to lick it to know it's
(30:20):
shit.
So therefore if it feelsuncomfortable say something.
Because it's uncomfortable.
It doesn't mean like it mightget comfortable eventually.
Yeah so I agree.
I mean having done this greatanalogy that people always go
like how can we reach you?
I mean this is about we we'vegone for about an hour which is
really great but I would like toknow how people can reach you.
SPEAKER_02 (30:43):
Yeah I have Instagram okay bear with me
because I don't actually knowwhat it is so just bear with me.
I'm on Facebook Emma Irwin ifanyone wants to send me an email
like if anyone wants to talkabout anything that I'm always
open for a conversation ifanyone's experienced anything
like I have and they just wantto talk to someone that's been
through something similar youcan email me.
SPEAKER_00 (31:03):
Do you want me to just say my email you can send
it to me and I'll put it in theshow notes.
Yeah I'll send it to you andwe'll put it in the show notes
I'll put like my Instagram myemail and I've got a my own
podcast um it's a true crimepodcast so I'll I'll send that
it's called the last and thelost that I'm that that
fascinates a lot of people hereso yeah I'll send that over as
well I know there's loads outthere these days so we'll see if
(31:25):
I can my girlfriend willprobably just listen to it
because uh you you said you hadone so that's yeah that's how it
is I'll send yeah I'll send itall over well I'll go listen to
it too actually so what's thename of the podcast?
SPEAKER_02 (31:37):
The Last and the Lost.
SPEAKER_00 (31:39):
So we'll put that in the show notes everything if you
want to reach her but you knowEmma I I gotta tell you that I
did not expect like I you knowyou meet someone online you're
like how is it gonna be thishour flew by it was a great
conversation and trulyappreciate your candor and I
hope some people are listeningare going to appreciate it too
so thank you for your time.
(31:59):
Hopefully that's yeah that's whyI'm here just hopefully someone
hears it and it helps someoneand you can go to England and
know how things go there whichI'll show you around show you
around Ashford and and just toput a little cherry on top here
don't go don't go to OxfordUniversity it'll get spit on
anyway.
(32:21):
Have a great rest of the day andthank you for your time.
SPEAKER_01 (32:24):
Thanks for having me please like subscribe and follow
this podcast on your favoriteplatform a glowing review is
always helpful.
And as a reminder this podcastis for informational educational
and entertainment purposes onlyif you're struggling with a
mental health or substance abuseissue please reach out to a
(32:44):
professional counselor forconsultation.
If you are in a mental healthcrisis call 988 for assistance
this number is available in theUnited States and Canada
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