April 22, 2026 • 30 mins
The day you retire, the job doesn’t just end. Your identity can crack wide open. I sit down with Kemmi Sadler, a recently retired law enforcement professional, to talk about what it really feels like to go from “in the club” to “civilian” overnight, and why that change can pull years of grief and trauma straight to the surface. We get honest about the quiet moments after a career of composure, and the uneasy question so many first responders carry: if I’m the protector, who protects me when I finally need help?
Kimmy shares how she started a deep dive into psychedelics and eventually found her way to ayahuasca in a U.S.-based church setting. We unpack the stigma around plant medicine, microdosing, and even cannabis for sleep, especially in a culture that often accepts pharmaceuticals without blinking while judging anything labeled a “drug.” The biggest takeaway isn’t hype, it’s the hard work: surrender, vulnerability, and the uncomfortable truth that healing can be demanding when your nervous system has been trained for vigilance and control.
We also talk about her memoir, From the Badge to the Vine: Journey Through Duty, Trauma, and Healing, and how telling the raw story becomes part of destigmatizing mental health treatment for the first responder community. Then we zoom out to what’s next: her Camino de Santiago pilgrimage with her dog Nona, a mental health awareness walk meant to remind people that while one path isn’t for everyone, the need for healing is universal.
If this conversation hits home, subscribe, share it with a coworker or a retiree, and leave a review so more first responders can find it.
Here is how to reach Kemmi:
www.klsadler.com
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kemmisadler/
https://www.facebook.com/klsadler
https://www.instagram.com/klsadler_/
www.nonasway.com
https://www.facebook.com/NonaTheWonderDog/
https://www.instagram.com/nonas_way_/
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:01):
Welcome to Resilience Development in Action
with Steve Bisson.
This is the podcast dedicated tofirst responder mental health,
helping police, fire, EMS,dispatchers, and paramedics
create better growthenvironments for themselves and
their teams.
Let's get started.
SPEAKER_00 (00:29):
Well, welcome back.
And Kimmy Sandler, you're backagain.
Okay, well, we already said thatwe'd be back anyway.
Just wanted to finish up alittle bit on the identity.
One of the biggest factors thatI find people do is that
becoming a civilian is like adirty word.
And we talked about that in theprevious episode, but I I really
(00:49):
feel like it's not about being adirty word, being a civilian,
but that loss of identity, nothaving that badge.
It is there, do you feel likeyou're losing the club, so to
speak?
Are you losing that kind of likeconnections to other people that
do the same thing?
SPEAKER_03 (01:05):
I don't know, maybe a little bit of both.
You know, I mean, I think onceyou once you're no longer in the
club, it changes the therelationship with people who
still are.
So it's kind of a a doublewhammy in some ways.
SPEAKER_00 (01:20):
It is a a hard sell.
I mean, you know, the other parttoo is the next day you're a
civilian.
unknown (01:27):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (01:27):
You're going on a cross-country trip.
And now, you know, what I findalso with a lot of guys and
gals, obviously, if I ever useguys, I mean it in a general
sense, not in a sexist way forall of you listening.
But, you know, when I see a lotof like they lost that that loss
of identity, then you're like,oh crap, all the stuff that kind
of happened in the last 20years, 15 years, 25 years, 10
(01:50):
years, doesn't matter really,all comes back and rushes
towards you.
So we talk about healing, butnow again you have the stigma
from the past, and now you gotto heal, but it's still the
stigma from the past, and thatkind of like the devil on one
side and the angel on the other.
What how do you deal with allthat?
SPEAKER_03 (02:09):
Right.
Well, I've I around the timethat I well let me back up a
couple years before I retired, Istarted to I became aware of a
of a type of healing that'smaybe not the most conventional,
but for some reason felt verydrawn to it.
(02:30):
And so I started to research anddo a really deep dive on
psychedelics.
And initially my curiosity waswell, initially it was just that
it was curiosity because thiswas something I wasn't super
familiar with, and it was beingpresented in a way that was
contradictory to what I hadalways believed about, you know,
air quotes drugs.
(02:51):
And so I started to really kindof dig into documentaries and
books, and as I got kind offurther down that rabbit hole,
realized that this waspotentially a way to seek
healing from that grief that Ihad carried.
And I had also lost my my fatherin 2014, so about 10 years
(03:16):
before I retired, and I alsoknew that I hadn't really
processed that loss either.
So I long story short, after Iretired, I found my way to an
ayahuasca ceremony, primarilybecause I was seeking healing
from grief.
(03:38):
But what I found was healingfrom all of these other things
that I didn't understand I wascarrying until I had the benefit
of hindsight.
SPEAKER_00 (03:48):
Right.
I think that the ayahuasca stuffis very controversial, yet I see
the good in that.
Microdosing is something that Ialso kind of see being very
helpful.
And I recently had a client whodid a microdose of MDMA, which
was I said, all right, well, youwant to try it, go ahead.
And it did wonders for thatperson.
(04:09):
So I think that there's a bigstigma.
How did you get by to stigma?
I mean, you go in ayahuasca todo it in Peru where it really
originates, then there's no realstigma.
But you know, stateside,European side, western culture
side in all reality, they kindof like frown upon that stuff.
How do you deal with thatstigma?
SPEAKER_03 (04:29):
Right.
Yeah, and I actually uh Iactually did it in the United
States.
I joined a church in in CentralFlorida.
I'm sorry, South Florida,Central Spiritualista, Luz
Divegetal.
It's a branch of a Brazilianchurch.
So from the from the Amazon.
I don't know.
I don't know that I cared aboutthe stigma.
SPEAKER_00 (04:46):
Okay.
SPEAKER_03 (04:47):
I mean, I didn't I didn't advertise it to a lot of
people.
In fact, I didn't I I probablycould count on one hand the
number of people I told that Iwas was going to pursue this
before I did.
But now I found find myself inthis space where I'm I'm
speaking very openly about it,you know, trying to to tell the
story to as many people who willlisten because it's um in fact,
(05:10):
I think I would say that my goalnow is to help eliminate that
stick because I I think it's Ireally strongly feel that it's
misunderstood.
SPEAKER_00 (05:25):
If you expect me to argue with you, I'm not.
I'm not.
You know, I'm also the type ofperson, and I know we're talking
about ayahuasca, but even forthe treatment of sleep at times
for first responders, I wishedit could take some THC that's
more like uh Indica to help themsleep because it's very
harmless.
(05:45):
But you can you know, not takingthat before your shift,
probably, that's not a goodidea.
But after some sleep and you'restruggling with that, it's a
nice natural way because to meanyway, I see that as an
advantage.
We worked through a lot of thestigma of the drugs because of
the work we do, right?
I mean, you I'm a civilian,obviously, but I work a lot with
(06:05):
substance use and I worked withthe first responder world many,
many, many times.
How's your journey beenconvincing people that it's not
so bad?
SPEAKER_03 (06:15):
Well, it's been it's it's surprised me in a number of
ways.
One of the most surprisingthings about it has been as I've
become more vocal about thisjourney and talked to
colleagues, many of whom are nowretired.
What has surprised me the mostis how many of them have said,
(06:36):
can you please tell me moreabout that?
I've been looking into that.
I've been looking into going toSouth America, I've been looking
into this type of experiencebecause maybe it's easier to
recognize the need to heal afteryou've stepped away from it.
Or maybe it's just because mostof the people that I talked to
came in in the same time frameand are also now retired.
(06:59):
I don't know, maybe there's acorrelation there that's that's
not valid.
But so that's that's been kindof surprising.
This and the support has beenoverwhelming.
In fact, I don't think anyonethat I have talked to about this
journey has pushed back thatI've done something wrong or
(07:20):
unethical or and just as yousaid with with the use of
marijuana for for sleep for youknow veterans or whoever, you
use the word natural.
Right?
Like and people and and I thinkI think it's interesting to me
that so many people who seethese types of modalities as
(07:46):
wrong, for lack of a betterword, are seemingly okay with
all of the pharmaceuticals andthe the things that come out of
labs, right?
But opposed to the things thatcome from nature, when the
things that come from the labare so often a synthetic
representation of a naturalcompound, it's yeah it's almost
(08:11):
backwards in some ways.
SPEAKER_00 (08:14):
To me, it is, I agree a hundred percent.
I mean, you look at the poppyfields in Afghanistan, you being
in Afghanistan for a while.
Well, if we put it under thename Oxycontin, that's fine, we
can do that, right?
Otherwise, we gotta destroythose poppy fields because
they're bad, they're they'redrug addicting.
Yep.
Is that what you're talkingabout?
SPEAKER_03 (08:36):
Yeah, well, or just the like even you know, take
aspirin for example.
Aspirin is a synthetic versionof the bark from a willow tree,
right?
So it's which which is better ifyou were if you have a headache
and you have the option betweenaspirin or some tea from Pisa
Park, like which one is lesslikely to have any kind of
(08:57):
carcinogens or I don't know.
I I I think it's just the closeryou can get to nature, the
closer you get to God.
SPEAKER_00 (09:07):
Yeah, the spiritual side too is so important, right?
No, I I I agree, and you know, Ias I tell people is that
sometimes people come in and myfirst responders don't have much
of a choice, but they're like,would you take Trasnone or
Amien, or would you rather takea melatonin or some sort of THC
(09:29):
that's indica base?
Well, you know what I'm gonnasay, right?
But I know that my firstresponder people can't do that
second part, right?
So, you know, the stigmas stillneeds to be taken care of.
But when your healing process,you talked about going to uh do
your ayahuasca down in SouthFlorida, it's been described to
me by many, many people of howit goes and how the journey
(09:51):
goes, so to speak, about gettingthere, and you know, sometimes
it's a hut, sometimes it's not,and what have you.
What was your journey like tothrough the ayahuasca stuff?
SPEAKER_03 (10:01):
Yeah, the the church that I joined in South Florida
is a beautiful piece ofproperty.
It has a temple that's kind of abig wooden gazebo, gazebo with a
white sandy floor, and theceremonies take place inside
that temple.
And everyone has a space to puttheir, you know, kind of their
mat so they can lay out and andbe comfortable.
The ceremonies typically last Ithink maybe six hours and start
(10:25):
start to finish some somewherein there.
And it's um it's not the easiestthing to do.
You know, it's in fact, it'sprobably the hardest thing I've
ever done in my life, is thehealing journey that I've taken
with Iowa.
But it's also been the mostprofound, I think, thing I've
(10:47):
ever experienced.
SPEAKER_00 (10:49):
When you say not easy, what do you mean by that?
Because I mean, you know, Ibecause it's too far down South
Florida, I mean why is it?
SPEAKER_03 (10:59):
No, I mean the experience it's the experience
itself.
SPEAKER_00 (11:02):
Okay, so explain.
That's kind of where we're gonnalead you to, actually.
SPEAKER_03 (11:06):
Yeah, being being in the medicine uh for sacrament is
if you surrender to it.
The the interesting thing aboutayahuasca, and I don't know that
this is true for other for otherpsychedelics, but you have to be
willing to allow it to workwithin your body and within your
(11:29):
mind and within your spirit tohave it help you.
And the first time that I wentand sat with ayahuasca, I had
more than double the regulardose and had no discernible
reaction to it whatsoeverbecause I wasn't willing, my ego
was not willing to allow me tobe vulnerable in front of a
(11:52):
group of complete strangers.
And I left that ceremony feelingvery disappointed and also
unworthy because I hadn't beenable to connect to this, you
know, this force.
And I went back a couple weeks.
Well, after the when thatceremony ended, I went to the
the facilitator of the ceremonyand I said, I don't understand
(12:15):
what happened.
You know, I had most people hadone, maybe one and a half cups,
and I drank five cups of it andnothing happened.
And I don't understand.
And he asked me, he said, Do yousmoke a lot of marijuana?
I said, I've never smokedmarijuana actually.
And then he said, Well, what doyou do?
You know, what do you do forwork?
I said, I've recently retired inlaw enforcement.
(12:37):
And the look on his face wasjust kind of like, uh-huh.
Yep, we we we see this a lot,you know, that the church works
has done work with veterans.
They've done, you know,obviously I'm not the first
responder to come through thedoor.
And he said, We often see thiswith people in military, law
enforcement, intelligencecircles.
You spend so much time trainingyour mind to maintain composure
(13:04):
and and separate your emotionson the inside from what you're
portraying on the outside, thatit can be hard to break through
that barrier.
And I said, But I, you know, Ifelt so drawn to this experience
that, you know, what do I whatdo I do now?
(13:25):
And he suggested that I comeback for a three-day retreat
because the church has one nightceremonies, and then I also do
uh a three night week over aweekend where you do three
consecutive ceremonies.
And so I did that.
I took a couple of months tokind of you know regroup and
think about what it was I reallywas after and why I was why I
(13:46):
was pursuing it.
And I went back a couple monthslater, and that's when the those
barriers started to started tocome down.
And you have to surrender to it,you know.
It's it's a powerful, it's apowerful medicine, but you have
to be willing to see what it'sgonna show you because it's it's
almost like in some ways amirror, and it's gonna show you
(14:09):
the truth.
And we don't always want to seethe truth, and we don't always
want to take responsibility forthe truth, and it requires that
of you.
So that's why I say it's it'sthe hardest thing I've done.
And and some of those ceremonieswere excruciatingly painful,
(14:32):
like you know, it's in yourhead, but I mean feeling feeling
actual physical discomfort andjust a battle going on, you
know.
Some of those first ceremonies,I've done a few, they have
gotten easier as I've workedthrough more of the layers in my
head, but some of those firstceremonies were very, very
(14:55):
intense and like a battle wasbrewing between my ego and
ayahuasca.
So it's yeah, yeah, it's it'snot a trip to the park.
SPEAKER_00 (15:15):
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(15:37):
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(16:01):
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Now, right back to the episode.
Well, I will argue that it's notyour ego, it's your super ego.
Don't do anything.
You might break down, you mightsay something you're not
(16:21):
supposed to do.
Sure.
That's your super ego, justdiagram all these barriers that
gotta be in the way.
I mean, to me, it's a superegoissue, but I'll defer to you.
SPEAKER_03 (16:29):
You're the expert on that, so I I'm not gonna argue
with you.
SPEAKER_00 (16:32):
Sorry sorry to go Freudian on your ass here.
That's not what my goal was, buthere we are, right?
SPEAKER_03 (16:37):
That's that's you're within your rights to do that.
SPEAKER_00 (16:40):
But I think it's really what you know.
I I have a friend of mine whodid the ayahuasca, and he this
person's not in on lawenforcement, this person does
therapy.
And the first time they went,they had a similar situation.
This was in Pennsylvania.
And what that person told me wasthat I didn't want to say things
(17:03):
I'm not supposed to.
And I said, Well, based on whatI know about ayahuasca, and I've
never done it personally, sothat's my disclosure to everyone
was that the more you createbarriers, the less likely it's
gonna work for you.
And it's not there to take awaythe HIPAA stuff or the secure,
you know, the national security.
It really is about you and whatyour super ego slash ego blocks.
(17:28):
Right.
So I don't know if that'sresonating with you, but that's
certainly what happened with myfriend.
SPEAKER_03 (17:34):
Yeah, yeah.
It it's I would agree with that.
I think I first had to get to apoint where I could allow my ego
to kind of step out of the wayso that I could get to the get
to the healing.
And it humbles you, you know.
I mean, it's just it's been avery humbling journey.
SPEAKER_00 (17:53):
There there's something about, you know, I
think that someone once said tome as a law enforcement person,
I was there to protect otherpeople.
Who's protecting me when I'mgoing through my treatment,
going through my ayahuasca?
He was an ayahuasca, but forexample, I think the change in
role is such an ego-driven thingbecause now you don't need to
(18:13):
protect yourself, you're notprotecting anything else.
All you have to do is break downthose barriers to open up.
And that's not an easy task whenyou're always thinking, I gotta
save people, I gotta helppeople, I gotta protect people.
SPEAKER_03 (18:26):
Right.
And I don't know if if if youwould agree with this, but the
the ego, I think, is whileyou're on the job, what helps to
keep you safe.
Like it's it serves you well,right?
It's the thing that allows youto be hyper-vigilant and have
that situational awareness, andin many ways, that suspicion and
(18:52):
maybe even fear are part of whatkeep you safe on the job.
And so when you start thisjourney and you start to kind of
dismantle those things, it's abig shift in mindset and even
worldview.
SPEAKER_00 (19:09):
I I I you know, I think that that's such a good
point.
I also know that for the ego, itreally is about what what's my
vulnerability gonna do to me.
And when we grow up, like I, youknow, and we all have different
journeys, but we we have thedifferent types of issues, slash
(19:33):
traumas, slash whatever you wantto call them.
And we protect ourselves, youknow, we reinterpret it and all
that, and that exposure fromayahuasca sometimes is too much
for people.
SPEAKER_03 (19:45):
Yes.
Yeah, and I've seen I've been inretreats where people have not
stayed the three days.
Because there's this I suspect,I suspect that that's I mean, I
don't know, and I don't know, Idon't know their story, but I
think it's sometimes just too,it's too honest.
SPEAKER_00 (20:03):
I mean, I I I think that what I I face it without
the ayahuasca when I'm workingwith people.
I'm like, if you're telling methat you're hurting kids or that
you're throwing animals oversome overpasses, yeah, I uh I'm
okay with you being shamed aboutthat.
That's fine.
Otherwise, there is no shame inanything you're gonna say.
And most of them agree with me,but they're like, yeah, my ego
(20:25):
won't let me do it.
So I think that you know, whentalk therapy cannot be enough,
and talk therapy is important.
I I I don't want to play down myjob.
I think it's important to dothat too.
But I think that stuff likeayahuasca will have, if as long
as they're open to it, we'llbreak it down for you.
SPEAKER_02 (20:43):
Right, right.
And that's the key to be willingto surrender to it.
SPEAKER_00 (20:48):
And I would argue that the reason why mental
health-wise, we struggle for ourfirst responder world,
particularly law enforcement, isthat who really wants to
struggle to this guy who's neverbeen in the job, or this woman
who's never been in the job.
And I get that sometimes.
Luckily, I have some experiencein the field, so it helps.
But I think I tell people, like,yeah, I mean, I've never had
(21:11):
schizophrenia, but I know how totreat it.
So maybe you know if you educateme, I'm able to help you too.
And most of them break thebarriers because I use humor a
lot.
But I think that with people whodo not want to do that, those
like again, I I don't know iflaw enforcement wants to be
saying, Oh, I'm going to anayahuasca retreat this weekend.
(21:32):
But that certainly is veryhelpful.
Well, I'm sure that you bringthat stuff up in your memoir.
SPEAKER_03 (21:39):
And you're oh, yeah, go ahead.
The the memoir is a very raw andvulnerable reckoning of my life.
So everything that I never toldanyone for you know 50 years,
it's it's all in there.
SPEAKER_00 (21:56):
Yeah, and just for the records, the national
security and the NSA doesn't cupup her ass.
Not anything around nationalsecurity.
Thank you very much.
Her own journey.
SPEAKER_03 (22:05):
Yeah, well, the State Department had to clear on
the manuscript.
So I had this.
SPEAKER_00 (22:09):
I figured.
SPEAKER_03 (22:11):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (22:12):
And I and you know, the NSA is always listening.
So oh, wait a minute.
No, they're not.
I'm not supposed to say thatapparently.
So talk about us, like thememoir was out on April 15th.
So it's in it's it's it's whatAmazon, I'm assuming.
SPEAKER_03 (22:28):
Yeah, it's available on Amazon.
It's available.
I have a website, KLSadler.com.
There are links to it on thereas well.
And the title is From the Badgeto the Vine, Journey Through
Duty, Trauma, and Healing.
And it's yeah, this is a storyof really the last two years of
(22:51):
my life, which have been on thisjourney with ayahuasca, but it's
it's not so much about theceremonies and what happens in
the ceremonies, it's more abouthow those experiences have
allowed me to lay down thethings that were no longer
(23:13):
serving me to step into you knowa new chapter of my life, if you
will.
And and now, you know, to mygreat surprise, to find myself
here as an advocate for a plantmedicine.
I mean, talk about doing a 180from uh you know a young police
(23:35):
officer who is arresting peoplefor a little bit of marijuana to
now advocating for sacredplants.
It's not a journey I everexpected to be on, but my hope
with the book is that it willhelp to destigmatize the use of
sacred plants for healing.
(23:58):
I sincerely believe that theseplants exist on this planet for
the exact reason that they, youknow, I think human beings have
been benefiting from theseplants for many, many thousands
of years.
I think that they they do, Ithink they do exactly what
they're designed to do.
And so my my hope is todestigmatize their use and also
(24:24):
to just help people, especiallyin the first responder
community, recognize that it'sokay to admit and accept that
the years on the job have had animpact on your soul.
SPEAKER_00 (24:42):
Powerful words had an impact on your soul.
I was smiling when you saidusing things, you know, getting
away from things that are notserving me anymore.
If I ever say that in any typeof department, fire police,
they're gonna roll their eyesand like listen to that fucking
therapist.
So it's kind of cool to hearsomeone say that because that's
like, all right, someone elsesaid in the like who works in
(25:03):
law enforcement, and it's notsomething I would have said
probably two years ago.
Well, I wonder that's thequestion that came up to me.
Like, I know it's not in thequestions we spoke to, but if I
talked to Kemi five years agoand I said, This is where you're
gonna be, you're gonna bewriting a book about your
journey and your and what wouldshe have said at that time?
SPEAKER_03 (25:23):
You're out of your damn mind.
SPEAKER_00 (25:26):
I know, I figured that's what she would say to me.
SPEAKER_03 (25:29):
I mean, just the fact that I'm on your show is it
would not have been, you know.
I mean, I avoided any kind ofspeaking engagement.
I, you know, the the one the onetest we talked about wellness
test, the one test that I did domultiple times throughout my
career, yeah, even in the StateDepartment, was personality
testing.
You know, Myers Briggs inparticular was the one that they
(25:51):
used early on.
I think now they've shifted tosomething else.
But, you know, from a leadershipfor leadership trainings and
things to understand, you know,how you might approach a
situation differently than thansomeone else's uh, you know,
coworker.
And the one thing that wasalways consistent for me on
those personality tests wasextreme introvert.
So just the fact that I'm herenow, you know, putting myself
(26:11):
out there uh in the world as anadvocate and speaker for this
modality is a massive shift fromwhere I would have been five
years ago.
SPEAKER_00 (26:23):
And it's that's what's interesting because if
you told me if you were anintrovert or an extrovert, I
would have called you anextroverted introvert, but uh
not an extreme introvert.
SPEAKER_03 (26:33):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (26:34):
Well, that's absolutely it's new.
You know, I don't know.
For me, it wasn't my journey wasmaybe through therapy, but my
journey was like that's theworst that could happen.
People don't like me.
I'm used to that stuff.
So that's how I've learned to bemyself more and more as time
goes on.
So you know, I can't fake me.
(26:56):
I could, I wish I could, butsometimes I can't fake me, so I
think that plays a factor.
But while your book is just out,I know that now we we do record
these things slightly inadvance, so everyone listening
to this will be like, Wow, she'son her journey right now on her
pilgrimage.
Well, no, we're recordingslightly before that, but would
like to talk about yourpilgrimage you're gonna be
taking because that's animportant thing too.
SPEAKER_03 (27:19):
Yes.
So I'm doing, I'm gonna walk theCamino de Santiago, 780
kilometers from SaintJohn-Piedaporte and France to
Santiago de Compostelle inSpain.
It's a walk that I wanted to dowhen I retired, but I was unable
to because I had foot surgeryshortly before I retired.
So I found myself on a verydifferent journey than one we
(27:40):
just talked about.
And now, two years to the day ofmy retirement, I am going to
start making my way to France.
And then on the 26th of April,I'm gonna start walking and I'm
gonna do it with my dog Nona.
And we're calling the pilgrimageNona's Way.
And I'm doing it as a mentalhealth awareness walk for, you
(28:05):
know, like we've been sayinghere, like this journey that
I've been on and that my booktalks about is not for
everybody.
No, but everybody needs healing.
So the purpose of Nona's Way isto draw attention to that need
for healing in the firstresponder community.
So there's a website for that aswell, known asway.com, and she's
(28:26):
also on Instagram and has aFacebook page.
SPEAKER_00 (28:28):
And well, I make sure to put that in the the the
show notes.
I'm gonna put in your website aswell as your journey because I'd
like the people that follow you.
Like I said, we're recordingthis slightly in advance from
that date.
So hopefully that people can goand check out where you're at,
too, I'm assuming.
SPEAKER_03 (28:46):
Yeah, yeah.
And I'll be making updates onthe Instagrams.
SPEAKER_00 (28:50):
Oh, yeah, and Instagram.
I mean, again, if I met you fiveyears ago and said you'd be on
Instagram sharing your story,what what would uh what would
you have said to me again?
SPEAKER_03 (28:59):
You'd have gotten the same response.
SPEAKER_00 (29:03):
Well, I still wish I didn't meet you five years ago
and to see all the progress,because that's the ultimate
thing, too, is we see our ownprogress, which is cool.
But as a therapist, that's thebest thing about my job is
seeing people go from where theywere five years ago to where
they are now.
So I I get it.
And I certainly know my retireesin the five-year span after
(29:26):
their retirement have changedtremendously to where they were
prior to that.
So I will let you go.
Please go follow her journey onInstagram.
We'll put out the website andthe show notes.
Go buy her book.
Again, what's the title?
SPEAKER_03 (29:42):
From the badge to the vine.
SPEAKER_00 (29:45):
From the badge to the vine, I will be getting my
copy.
And I know you'll be on your waywhile we're this comes out, but
I'll send you my copy, andhopefully, when you get back,
you can sign it or something.
SPEAKER_03 (29:57):
I would be honored to.
SPEAKER_00 (29:59):
I really appreciate your time and thank you for
sharing so openly, and Iappreciate you.
SPEAKER_01 (30:03):
Thank you.
SPEAKER_00 (30:04):
Thank you.
SPEAKER_01 (30:07):
Please like, subscribe, and follow this
podcast on your favoriteplatform.
A glowing review is alwayshelpful.
And as a reminder, this podcastis for informational,
educational, and entertainmentpurposes only.
If you're struggling with amental health or substance abuse
issue, please reach out to aprofessional counselor for
consultation.
If you are in a mental healthcrisis, call 988 for assistance.
(30:30):
This number is available in theUnited States and Canada.
Welcome to Resilience Development in Action
with Steve Bisson.
This is the podcast dedicated tofirst responder mental health,
helping police, fire, EMS,dispatchers, and paramedics
create better growthenvironments for themselves and
their teams.
Let's get started.
SPEAKER_00 (00:29):
Well, welcome back.
And Kimmy Sandler, you're backagain.
Okay, well, we already said thatwe'd be back anyway.
Just wanted to finish up alittle bit on the identity.
One of the biggest factors thatI find people do is that
becoming a civilian is like adirty word.
And we talked about that in theprevious episode, but I I really
(00:49):
feel like it's not about being adirty word, being a civilian,
but that loss of identity, nothaving that badge.
It is there, do you feel likeyou're losing the club, so to
speak?
Are you losing that kind of likeconnections to other people that
do the same thing?
SPEAKER_03 (01:05):
I don't know, maybe a little bit of both.
You know, I mean, I think onceyou once you're no longer in the
club, it changes the therelationship with people who
still are.
So it's kind of a a doublewhammy in some ways.
SPEAKER_00 (01:20):
It is a a hard sell.
I mean, you know, the other parttoo is the next day you're a
civilian.
unknown (01:27):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (01:27):
You're going on a cross-country trip.
And now, you know, what I findalso with a lot of guys and
gals, obviously, if I ever useguys, I mean it in a general
sense, not in a sexist way forall of you listening.
But, you know, when I see a lotof like they lost that that loss
of identity, then you're like,oh crap, all the stuff that kind
of happened in the last 20years, 15 years, 25 years, 10
(01:50):
years, doesn't matter really,all comes back and rushes
towards you.
So we talk about healing, butnow again you have the stigma
from the past, and now you gotto heal, but it's still the
stigma from the past, and thatkind of like the devil on one
side and the angel on the other.
What how do you deal with allthat?
SPEAKER_03 (02:09):
Right.
Well, I've I around the timethat I well let me back up a
couple years before I retired, Istarted to I became aware of a
of a type of healing that'smaybe not the most conventional,
but for some reason felt verydrawn to it.
(02:30):
And so I started to research anddo a really deep dive on
psychedelics.
And initially my curiosity waswell, initially it was just that
it was curiosity because thiswas something I wasn't super
familiar with, and it was beingpresented in a way that was
contradictory to what I hadalways believed about, you know,
air quotes drugs.
(02:51):
And so I started to really kindof dig into documentaries and
books, and as I got kind offurther down that rabbit hole,
realized that this waspotentially a way to seek
healing from that grief that Ihad carried.
And I had also lost my my fatherin 2014, so about 10 years
(03:16):
before I retired, and I alsoknew that I hadn't really
processed that loss either.
So I long story short, after Iretired, I found my way to an
ayahuasca ceremony, primarilybecause I was seeking healing
from grief.
(03:38):
But what I found was healingfrom all of these other things
that I didn't understand I wascarrying until I had the benefit
of hindsight.
SPEAKER_00 (03:48):
Right.
I think that the ayahuasca stuffis very controversial, yet I see
the good in that.
Microdosing is something that Ialso kind of see being very
helpful.
And I recently had a client whodid a microdose of MDMA, which
was I said, all right, well, youwant to try it, go ahead.
And it did wonders for thatperson.
(04:09):
So I think that there's a bigstigma.
How did you get by to stigma?
I mean, you go in ayahuasca todo it in Peru where it really
originates, then there's no realstigma.
But you know, stateside,European side, western culture
side in all reality, they kindof like frown upon that stuff.
How do you deal with thatstigma?
SPEAKER_03 (04:29):
Right.
Yeah, and I actually uh Iactually did it in the United
States.
I joined a church in in CentralFlorida.
I'm sorry, South Florida,Central Spiritualista, Luz
Divegetal.
It's a branch of a Brazilianchurch.
So from the from the Amazon.
I don't know.
I don't know that I cared aboutthe stigma.
SPEAKER_00 (04:46):
Okay.
SPEAKER_03 (04:47):
I mean, I didn't I didn't advertise it to a lot of
people.
In fact, I didn't I I probablycould count on one hand the
number of people I told that Iwas was going to pursue this
before I did.
But now I found find myself inthis space where I'm I'm
speaking very openly about it,you know, trying to to tell the
story to as many people who willlisten because it's um in fact,
(05:10):
I think I would say that my goalnow is to help eliminate that
stick because I I think it's Ireally strongly feel that it's
misunderstood.
SPEAKER_00 (05:25):
If you expect me to argue with you, I'm not.
I'm not.
You know, I'm also the type ofperson, and I know we're talking
about ayahuasca, but even forthe treatment of sleep at times
for first responders, I wishedit could take some THC that's
more like uh Indica to help themsleep because it's very
harmless.
(05:45):
But you can you know, not takingthat before your shift,
probably, that's not a goodidea.
But after some sleep and you'restruggling with that, it's a
nice natural way because to meanyway, I see that as an
advantage.
We worked through a lot of thestigma of the drugs because of
the work we do, right?
I mean, you I'm a civilian,obviously, but I work a lot with
(06:05):
substance use and I worked withthe first responder world many,
many, many times.
How's your journey beenconvincing people that it's not
so bad?
SPEAKER_03 (06:15):
Well, it's been it's it's surprised me in a number of
ways.
One of the most surprisingthings about it has been as I've
become more vocal about thisjourney and talked to
colleagues, many of whom are nowretired.
What has surprised me the mostis how many of them have said,
(06:36):
can you please tell me moreabout that?
I've been looking into that.
I've been looking into going toSouth America, I've been looking
into this type of experiencebecause maybe it's easier to
recognize the need to heal afteryou've stepped away from it.
Or maybe it's just because mostof the people that I talked to
came in in the same time frameand are also now retired.
(06:59):
I don't know, maybe there's acorrelation there that's that's
not valid.
But so that's that's been kindof surprising.
This and the support has beenoverwhelming.
In fact, I don't think anyonethat I have talked to about this
journey has pushed back thatI've done something wrong or
(07:20):
unethical or and just as yousaid with with the use of
marijuana for for sleep for youknow veterans or whoever, you
use the word natural.
Right?
Like and people and and I thinkI think it's interesting to me
that so many people who seethese types of modalities as
(07:46):
wrong, for lack of a betterword, are seemingly okay with
all of the pharmaceuticals andthe the things that come out of
labs, right?
But opposed to the things thatcome from nature, when the
things that come from the labare so often a synthetic
representation of a naturalcompound, it's yeah it's almost
(08:11):
backwards in some ways.
SPEAKER_00 (08:14):
To me, it is, I agree a hundred percent.
I mean, you look at the poppyfields in Afghanistan, you being
in Afghanistan for a while.
Well, if we put it under thename Oxycontin, that's fine, we
can do that, right?
Otherwise, we gotta destroythose poppy fields because
they're bad, they're they'redrug addicting.
Yep.
Is that what you're talkingabout?
SPEAKER_03 (08:36):
Yeah, well, or just the like even you know, take
aspirin for example.
Aspirin is a synthetic versionof the bark from a willow tree,
right?
So it's which which is better ifyou were if you have a headache
and you have the option betweenaspirin or some tea from Pisa
Park, like which one is lesslikely to have any kind of
(08:57):
carcinogens or I don't know.
I I I think it's just the closeryou can get to nature, the
closer you get to God.
SPEAKER_00 (09:07):
Yeah, the spiritual side too is so important, right?
No, I I I agree, and you know, Ias I tell people is that
sometimes people come in and myfirst responders don't have much
of a choice, but they're like,would you take Trasnone or
Amien, or would you rather takea melatonin or some sort of THC
(09:29):
that's indica base?
Well, you know what I'm gonnasay, right?
But I know that my firstresponder people can't do that
second part, right?
So, you know, the stigmas stillneeds to be taken care of.
But when your healing process,you talked about going to uh do
your ayahuasca down in SouthFlorida, it's been described to
me by many, many people of howit goes and how the journey
(09:51):
goes, so to speak, about gettingthere, and you know, sometimes
it's a hut, sometimes it's not,and what have you.
What was your journey like tothrough the ayahuasca stuff?
SPEAKER_03 (10:01):
Yeah, the the church that I joined in South Florida
is a beautiful piece ofproperty.
It has a temple that's kind of abig wooden gazebo, gazebo with a
white sandy floor, and theceremonies take place inside
that temple.
And everyone has a space to puttheir, you know, kind of their
mat so they can lay out and andbe comfortable.
The ceremonies typically last Ithink maybe six hours and start
(10:25):
start to finish some somewherein there.
And it's um it's not the easiestthing to do.
You know, it's in fact, it'sprobably the hardest thing I've
ever done in my life, is thehealing journey that I've taken
with Iowa.
But it's also been the mostprofound, I think, thing I've
(10:47):
ever experienced.
SPEAKER_00 (10:49):
When you say not easy, what do you mean by that?
Because I mean, you know, Ibecause it's too far down South
Florida, I mean why is it?
SPEAKER_03 (10:59):
No, I mean the experience it's the experience
itself.
SPEAKER_00 (11:02):
Okay, so explain.
That's kind of where we're gonnalead you to, actually.
SPEAKER_03 (11:06):
Yeah, being being in the medicine uh for sacrament is
if you surrender to it.
The the interesting thing aboutayahuasca, and I don't know that
this is true for other for otherpsychedelics, but you have to be
willing to allow it to workwithin your body and within your
(11:29):
mind and within your spirit tohave it help you.
And the first time that I wentand sat with ayahuasca, I had
more than double the regulardose and had no discernible
reaction to it whatsoeverbecause I wasn't willing, my ego
was not willing to allow me tobe vulnerable in front of a
(11:52):
group of complete strangers.
And I left that ceremony feelingvery disappointed and also
unworthy because I hadn't beenable to connect to this, you
know, this force.
And I went back a couple weeks.
Well, after the when thatceremony ended, I went to the
the facilitator of the ceremonyand I said, I don't understand
(12:15):
what happened.
You know, I had most people hadone, maybe one and a half cups,
and I drank five cups of it andnothing happened.
And I don't understand.
And he asked me, he said, Do yousmoke a lot of marijuana?
I said, I've never smokedmarijuana actually.
And then he said, Well, what doyou do?
You know, what do you do forwork?
I said, I've recently retired inlaw enforcement.
(12:37):
And the look on his face wasjust kind of like, uh-huh.
Yep, we we we see this a lot,you know, that the church works
has done work with veterans.
They've done, you know,obviously I'm not the first
responder to come through thedoor.
And he said, We often see thiswith people in military, law
enforcement, intelligencecircles.
You spend so much time trainingyour mind to maintain composure
(13:04):
and and separate your emotionson the inside from what you're
portraying on the outside, thatit can be hard to break through
that barrier.
And I said, But I, you know, Ifelt so drawn to this experience
that, you know, what do I whatdo I do now?
(13:25):
And he suggested that I comeback for a three-day retreat
because the church has one nightceremonies, and then I also do
uh a three night week over aweekend where you do three
consecutive ceremonies.
And so I did that.
I took a couple of months tokind of you know regroup and
think about what it was I reallywas after and why I was why I
(13:46):
was pursuing it.
And I went back a couple monthslater, and that's when the those
barriers started to started tocome down.
And you have to surrender to it,you know.
It's it's a powerful, it's apowerful medicine, but you have
to be willing to see what it'sgonna show you because it's it's
almost like in some ways amirror, and it's gonna show you
(14:09):
the truth.
And we don't always want to seethe truth, and we don't always
want to take responsibility forthe truth, and it requires that
of you.
So that's why I say it's it'sthe hardest thing I've done.
And and some of those ceremonieswere excruciatingly painful,
(14:32):
like you know, it's in yourhead, but I mean feeling feeling
actual physical discomfort andjust a battle going on, you
know.
Some of those first ceremonies,I've done a few, they have
gotten easier as I've workedthrough more of the layers in my
head, but some of those firstceremonies were very, very
(14:55):
intense and like a battle wasbrewing between my ego and
ayahuasca.
So it's yeah, yeah, it's it'snot a trip to the park.
SPEAKER_00 (15:15):
Just a quick break, guys.
I'm gonna talk about a newproduct that I really like.
I actually bought one of theirhoodies, it was amazing, and I
really enjoyed wearing it.
Uh, it this episode is gonna besupported by Deemed Fit.
Deemed Fit is a firstresponder-owned activewear and a
leisure brand.
And one thing that I genuinelylike about them is that they
support different causes.
I actually gave a few people Iknow who work with first
(15:37):
responders and our nonprofitstheir name to uh Deemed Fit, and
I know they're talking to them.
They do a lot of initiatives andcollections that are based on
mental health for firstresponders.
And if you go there right nowand you buy anything, including
the mental health support stuff,uh use the code RDA15.
That's right, R D A 15 to get15% off on any products that you
(16:01):
get.
Again, it's called R D A 15.
Go to dfit.com, D-E-E,M-E-D-F-I-T.com, and enjoy 15%
off at checkout to save.
Now, right back to the episode.
Well, I will argue that it's notyour ego, it's your super ego.
Don't do anything.
You might break down, you mightsay something you're not
(16:21):
supposed to do.
Sure.
That's your super ego, justdiagram all these barriers that
gotta be in the way.
I mean, to me, it's a superegoissue, but I'll defer to you.
SPEAKER_03 (16:29):
You're the expert on that, so I I'm not gonna argue
with you.
SPEAKER_00 (16:32):
Sorry sorry to go Freudian on your ass here.
That's not what my goal was, buthere we are, right?
SPEAKER_03 (16:37):
That's that's you're within your rights to do that.
SPEAKER_00 (16:40):
But I think it's really what you know.
I I have a friend of mine whodid the ayahuasca, and he this
person's not in on lawenforcement, this person does
therapy.
And the first time they went,they had a similar situation.
This was in Pennsylvania.
And what that person told me wasthat I didn't want to say things
(17:03):
I'm not supposed to.
And I said, Well, based on whatI know about ayahuasca, and I've
never done it personally, sothat's my disclosure to everyone
was that the more you createbarriers, the less likely it's
gonna work for you.
And it's not there to take awaythe HIPAA stuff or the secure,
you know, the national security.
It really is about you and whatyour super ego slash ego blocks.
(17:28):
Right.
So I don't know if that'sresonating with you, but that's
certainly what happened with myfriend.
SPEAKER_03 (17:34):
Yeah, yeah.
It it's I would agree with that.
I think I first had to get to apoint where I could allow my ego
to kind of step out of the wayso that I could get to the get
to the healing.
And it humbles you, you know.
I mean, it's just it's been avery humbling journey.
SPEAKER_00 (17:53):
There there's something about, you know, I
think that someone once said tome as a law enforcement person,
I was there to protect otherpeople.
Who's protecting me when I'mgoing through my treatment,
going through my ayahuasca?
He was an ayahuasca, but forexample, I think the change in
role is such an ego-driven thingbecause now you don't need to
(18:13):
protect yourself, you're notprotecting anything else.
All you have to do is break downthose barriers to open up.
And that's not an easy task whenyou're always thinking, I gotta
save people, I gotta helppeople, I gotta protect people.
SPEAKER_03 (18:26):
Right.
And I don't know if if if youwould agree with this, but the
the ego, I think, is whileyou're on the job, what helps to
keep you safe.
Like it's it serves you well,right?
It's the thing that allows youto be hyper-vigilant and have
that situational awareness, andin many ways, that suspicion and
(18:52):
maybe even fear are part of whatkeep you safe on the job.
And so when you start thisjourney and you start to kind of
dismantle those things, it's abig shift in mindset and even
worldview.
SPEAKER_00 (19:09):
I I I you know, I think that that's such a good
point.
I also know that for the ego, itreally is about what what's my
vulnerability gonna do to me.
And when we grow up, like I, youknow, and we all have different
journeys, but we we have thedifferent types of issues, slash
(19:33):
traumas, slash whatever you wantto call them.
And we protect ourselves, youknow, we reinterpret it and all
that, and that exposure fromayahuasca sometimes is too much
for people.
SPEAKER_03 (19:45):
Yes.
Yeah, and I've seen I've been inretreats where people have not
stayed the three days.
Because there's this I suspect,I suspect that that's I mean, I
don't know, and I don't know, Idon't know their story, but I
think it's sometimes just too,it's too honest.
SPEAKER_00 (20:03):
I mean, I I I think that what I I face it without
the ayahuasca when I'm workingwith people.
I'm like, if you're telling methat you're hurting kids or that
you're throwing animals oversome overpasses, yeah, I uh I'm
okay with you being shamed aboutthat.
That's fine.
Otherwise, there is no shame inanything you're gonna say.
And most of them agree with me,but they're like, yeah, my ego
(20:25):
won't let me do it.
So I think that you know, whentalk therapy cannot be enough,
and talk therapy is important.
I I I don't want to play down myjob.
I think it's important to dothat too.
But I think that stuff likeayahuasca will have, if as long
as they're open to it, we'llbreak it down for you.
SPEAKER_02 (20:43):
Right, right.
And that's the key to be willingto surrender to it.
SPEAKER_00 (20:48):
And I would argue that the reason why mental
health-wise, we struggle for ourfirst responder world,
particularly law enforcement, isthat who really wants to
struggle to this guy who's neverbeen in the job, or this woman
who's never been in the job.
And I get that sometimes.
Luckily, I have some experiencein the field, so it helps.
But I think I tell people, like,yeah, I mean, I've never had
(21:11):
schizophrenia, but I know how totreat it.
So maybe you know if you educateme, I'm able to help you too.
And most of them break thebarriers because I use humor a
lot.
But I think that with people whodo not want to do that, those
like again, I I don't know iflaw enforcement wants to be
saying, Oh, I'm going to anayahuasca retreat this weekend.
(21:32):
But that certainly is veryhelpful.
Well, I'm sure that you bringthat stuff up in your memoir.
SPEAKER_03 (21:39):
And you're oh, yeah, go ahead.
The the memoir is a very raw andvulnerable reckoning of my life.
So everything that I never toldanyone for you know 50 years,
it's it's all in there.
SPEAKER_00 (21:56):
Yeah, and just for the records, the national
security and the NSA doesn't cupup her ass.
Not anything around nationalsecurity.
Thank you very much.
Her own journey.
SPEAKER_03 (22:05):
Yeah, well, the State Department had to clear on
the manuscript.
So I had this.
SPEAKER_00 (22:09):
I figured.
SPEAKER_03 (22:11):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (22:12):
And I and you know, the NSA is always listening.
So oh, wait a minute.
No, they're not.
I'm not supposed to say thatapparently.
So talk about us, like thememoir was out on April 15th.
So it's in it's it's it's whatAmazon, I'm assuming.
SPEAKER_03 (22:28):
Yeah, it's available on Amazon.
It's available.
I have a website, KLSadler.com.
There are links to it on thereas well.
And the title is From the Badgeto the Vine, Journey Through
Duty, Trauma, and Healing.
And it's yeah, this is a storyof really the last two years of
(22:51):
my life, which have been on thisjourney with ayahuasca, but it's
it's not so much about theceremonies and what happens in
the ceremonies, it's more abouthow those experiences have
allowed me to lay down thethings that were no longer
(23:13):
serving me to step into you knowa new chapter of my life, if you
will.
And and now, you know, to mygreat surprise, to find myself
here as an advocate for a plantmedicine.
I mean, talk about doing a 180from uh you know a young police
(23:35):
officer who is arresting peoplefor a little bit of marijuana to
now advocating for sacredplants.
It's not a journey I everexpected to be on, but my hope
with the book is that it willhelp to destigmatize the use of
sacred plants for healing.
(23:58):
I sincerely believe that theseplants exist on this planet for
the exact reason that they, youknow, I think human beings have
been benefiting from theseplants for many, many thousands
of years.
I think that they they do, Ithink they do exactly what
they're designed to do.
And so my my hope is todestigmatize their use and also
(24:24):
to just help people, especiallyin the first responder
community, recognize that it'sokay to admit and accept that
the years on the job have had animpact on your soul.
SPEAKER_00 (24:42):
Powerful words had an impact on your soul.
I was smiling when you saidusing things, you know, getting
away from things that are notserving me anymore.
If I ever say that in any typeof department, fire police,
they're gonna roll their eyesand like listen to that fucking
therapist.
So it's kind of cool to hearsomeone say that because that's
like, all right, someone elsesaid in the like who works in
(25:03):
law enforcement, and it's notsomething I would have said
probably two years ago.
Well, I wonder that's thequestion that came up to me.
Like, I know it's not in thequestions we spoke to, but if I
talked to Kemi five years agoand I said, This is where you're
gonna be, you're gonna bewriting a book about your
journey and your and what wouldshe have said at that time?
SPEAKER_03 (25:23):
You're out of your damn mind.
SPEAKER_00 (25:26):
I know, I figured that's what she would say to me.
SPEAKER_03 (25:29):
I mean, just the fact that I'm on your show is it
would not have been, you know.
I mean, I avoided any kind ofspeaking engagement.
I, you know, the the one the onetest we talked about wellness
test, the one test that I did domultiple times throughout my
career, yeah, even in the StateDepartment, was personality
testing.
You know, Myers Briggs inparticular was the one that they
(25:51):
used early on.
I think now they've shifted tosomething else.
But, you know, from a leadershipfor leadership trainings and
things to understand, you know,how you might approach a
situation differently than thansomeone else's uh, you know,
coworker.
And the one thing that wasalways consistent for me on
those personality tests wasextreme introvert.
So just the fact that I'm herenow, you know, putting myself
(26:11):
out there uh in the world as anadvocate and speaker for this
modality is a massive shift fromwhere I would have been five
years ago.
SPEAKER_00 (26:23):
And it's that's what's interesting because if
you told me if you were anintrovert or an extrovert, I
would have called you anextroverted introvert, but uh
not an extreme introvert.
SPEAKER_03 (26:33):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (26:34):
Well, that's absolutely it's new.
You know, I don't know.
For me, it wasn't my journey wasmaybe through therapy, but my
journey was like that's theworst that could happen.
People don't like me.
I'm used to that stuff.
So that's how I've learned to bemyself more and more as time
goes on.
So you know, I can't fake me.
(26:56):
I could, I wish I could, butsometimes I can't fake me, so I
think that plays a factor.
But while your book is just out,I know that now we we do record
these things slightly inadvance, so everyone listening
to this will be like, Wow, she'son her journey right now on her
pilgrimage.
Well, no, we're recordingslightly before that, but would
like to talk about yourpilgrimage you're gonna be
taking because that's animportant thing too.
SPEAKER_03 (27:19):
Yes.
So I'm doing, I'm gonna walk theCamino de Santiago, 780
kilometers from SaintJohn-Piedaporte and France to
Santiago de Compostelle inSpain.
It's a walk that I wanted to dowhen I retired, but I was unable
to because I had foot surgeryshortly before I retired.
So I found myself on a verydifferent journey than one we
(27:40):
just talked about.
And now, two years to the day ofmy retirement, I am going to
start making my way to France.
And then on the 26th of April,I'm gonna start walking and I'm
gonna do it with my dog Nona.
And we're calling the pilgrimageNona's Way.
And I'm doing it as a mentalhealth awareness walk for, you
(28:05):
know, like we've been sayinghere, like this journey that
I've been on and that my booktalks about is not for
everybody.
No, but everybody needs healing.
So the purpose of Nona's Way isto draw attention to that need
for healing in the firstresponder community.
So there's a website for that aswell, known asway.com, and she's
(28:26):
also on Instagram and has aFacebook page.
SPEAKER_00 (28:28):
And well, I make sure to put that in the the the
show notes.
I'm gonna put in your website aswell as your journey because I'd
like the people that follow you.
Like I said, we're recordingthis slightly in advance from
that date.
So hopefully that people can goand check out where you're at,
too, I'm assuming.
SPEAKER_03 (28:46):
Yeah, yeah.
And I'll be making updates onthe Instagrams.
SPEAKER_00 (28:50):
Oh, yeah, and Instagram.
I mean, again, if I met you fiveyears ago and said you'd be on
Instagram sharing your story,what what would uh what would
you have said to me again?
SPEAKER_03 (28:59):
You'd have gotten the same response.
SPEAKER_00 (29:03):
Well, I still wish I didn't meet you five years ago
and to see all the progress,because that's the ultimate
thing, too, is we see our ownprogress, which is cool.
But as a therapist, that's thebest thing about my job is
seeing people go from where theywere five years ago to where
they are now.
So I I get it.
And I certainly know my retireesin the five-year span after
(29:26):
their retirement have changedtremendously to where they were
prior to that.
So I will let you go.
Please go follow her journey onInstagram.
We'll put out the website andthe show notes.
Go buy her book.
Again, what's the title?
SPEAKER_03 (29:42):
From the badge to the vine.
SPEAKER_00 (29:45):
From the badge to the vine, I will be getting my
copy.
And I know you'll be on your waywhile we're this comes out, but
I'll send you my copy, andhopefully, when you get back,
you can sign it or something.
SPEAKER_03 (29:57):
I would be honored to.
SPEAKER_00 (29:59):
I really appreciate your time and thank you for
sharing so openly, and Iappreciate you.
SPEAKER_01 (30:03):
Thank you.
SPEAKER_00 (30:04):
Thank you.
SPEAKER_01 (30:07):
Please like, subscribe, and follow this
podcast on your favoriteplatform.
A glowing review is alwayshelpful.
And as a reminder, this podcastis for informational,
educational, and entertainmentpurposes only.
If you're struggling with amental health or substance abuse
issue, please reach out to aprofessional counselor for
consultation.
If you are in a mental healthcrisis, call 988 for assistance.
(30:30):
This number is available in theUnited States and Canada.
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