November 27, 2025 • 29 mins
The story begins where many first responder lives converge: relentless calls, court dates, and a small department that never truly sleeps. Then the personal hits. Former New Hampshire police chief Doug Wyman opens up about parenting through a son’s addiction at the height of the opioid crisis, supporting a younger child through identity shifts, and the morning that changed everything—when his wife died by suicide with his duty weapon. What follows is a rare, unguarded look at procedure meeting grief, and how systems can protect evidence while still protecting people.
We walk through what real support looks like after the casseroles stop—peer teams that actually call, clergy who listen more than they preach, and a therapist with true cultural competency. Doug explains why a mind body spirit triangle isn’t fluff; it’s the backbone of resilience for first responders and families. Spirituality here is practical, not preachy—whether you find it in church, Stoicism, or a clear atheist ethic. Acceptance becomes the turning point. It’s not agreement. It’s the doorway to choose constructive over destructive, to convert pain into purpose, and to build post-traumatic growth one small habit at a time.
We also dig into the cognitive traps that keep people stuck on if and the simple language checks that interrupt self-blame. From there, the focus widens to culture. Strong wellness programs don’t live in binders; they live in people. Informal leaders—the ones who can get fifteen colleagues to show up on a Saturday—are the engine. When departments design with those influencers, recruitment and retention rise, and the holdouts become a minority. If you want a team to thrive, build a house you’re proud to invite others into.
If this conversation resonates, follow the show, share it with a teammate who needs it, and leave a review so more first responders and families can find these tools. And if you or someone you love is in crisis, call 988 right now. You’re not alone.
Go to Doug's LinkedIn website at: https://www.linkedin.com/in/douglas-wyman-6b80852a/details/featured/
The Class Inside the Box - Focuses on Organizational Wellness and Post Traumatic growth and is for first line supervisors and command staff.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:29):
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Well, hi everyone, and welcometo episode 232.
If you haven't listened toepisode 231, it was with Lisa
(01:13):
Truasis.
And if I hope you'd listen toboth episodes, because that was
a great episode.
She talks about this batch, buther own personal story was
amazing.
And I hope you get to listen tothat.
But episode 232 is with someoneI just met, and I feel like
we're like bonding already, andI truly enjoy everything we
talked about.
We I think this is the longestuh pre-interview I've ever done.
(01:34):
And I think if we could havedone it another hour, we would
have.
And now that's a good thing,right?
But um I want to say hi toDouglas Wyman.
SPEAKER_02 (01:42):
Yep.
SPEAKER_01 (01:42):
Welcome to Resilience Development in
Action.
Um, you know, like I feel likeI'm getting to be your friend
already, and I appreciate that.
Um, but I don't think that theaudience might necessarily know
who you are.
So if you want to tell them alittle bit about who you are,
that'd be great.
SPEAKER_02 (01:58):
Great.
So again, my name is Doug Wyman,and I uh served 32 years in the
state of New Hampshire as apolice officer.
I retired in 2020 as the chiefof police for the town of
Sandwich, New Hampshire.
Uh currently I work as a staffinvestigator for the
Massachusetts Department ofMental Health.
Uh I've been doing, I've beenwith DMH now for probably about
(02:20):
coming up on five years.
Um and additional to that, um,kind of my side hustles are um I
teach a class on organizationalwellness, resilience, and
post-traumatic growth at thecommand and staff school at
Roger Williams University forthe New England Association of
Chiefs of Police at the firstline supervisor section.
(02:42):
Uh I'm also an instructor forcentral mass crisis intervention
teams, where I teach a class onsupporting LGBTQ youth and their
families.
And I am also on the ExecutiveLaw Enforcement Advisory Board
for Law Enforcement AgainstDrugs and Violence, which is a
national drug preventionprogram.
Um so I do that and amongstother things, including pursuing
(03:06):
my master's degree right now.
SPEAKER_01 (03:08):
So what's your master's gonna be in?
SPEAKER_02 (03:10):
It's gonna be in uh criminal justice.
Um as you saw, I have abachelor's in divinity and I'm
an ordained minister, but I feelthat my career at at this
moment, that degree is gonnahelp me more in my career than a
divinity degree will.
SPEAKER_01 (03:25):
Um and maybe eventually I'll go for the MDiv,
but one one day you should be atherapist, that's what I think.
SPEAKER_02 (03:34):
Because that's kind of the that's kind of the that's
kind of the focus.
SPEAKER_01 (03:37):
Because I think that what like what's fascinating is
you know, you read someone's bioand then you meet the person.
And you see a person on paperand they're pretty good, and
that's not an attack, it's justwhat it is.
And then we just spent like allthis time talking, and I'm like,
this human is absolutelyamazing.
(03:57):
So I don't even know where tostart because the the training,
I what I'm gonna link it to inthe show notes, because I think
that has to be people need tosee this because it's so
important.
Because we we talked about itoff-air, but I'm gonna repeat
what I said.
You know, uh we talked aboutcritical incidents, uh
civilians, I hear, is aboutseven or eight critical
(04:18):
civilians' lifetime.
And just during the job onaverage, I think it's for first
responders about 200.
That's an average, by the way.
That means some people are slowlower, but it means a lot of
people are higher too.
SPEAKER_02 (04:29):
Exactly.
SPEAKER_01 (04:30):
Um, and I know that not only adding to that is the
fact that your personal tragedythat came about from this.
Yes.
So I really don't know where togo.
Like I said, I I'm interested inall of that, but maybe we should
start about your personal storybecause I think that that's what
really makes people relate.
Um, you know, you said you werea chief.
(04:51):
Please keep on listening.
Uh I'm joking, of course.
But um I I would love to hearmore about your personal story
of personal loss.
And it, you know, again, uh myheart goes out to you, but sure
to explain it to the audience.
SPEAKER_02 (05:06):
And it it's multi-layered, um, as we talked
about, it is multi-layered.
Um but I think it's a testamentto the faith that I have um in
the above, and you know, thefaith I had uh or the the
support that I received from myfamily but uh and my friends.
Um but we're going back, youknow, like 2014, 2015.
(05:31):
Um my wife and I had twochildren.
Um I was promoted to chief in2009.
Uh so this is right in themiddle of middle of my career as
being a chief.
Um I was a chief for 11 years inNew Hampshire.
SPEAKER_01 (05:48):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (05:49):
Uh and I was a chief of a department which not only
was the administrator, but I wasalso my department was small
enough that I still had to do,not only did I have to do budget
and policy and all the chiefstuff, but I also had to answer
calls to cover accidents.
I had to investigate crimes, Ihad to prosecute cases in court,
um, because New Hampshire hasthat where officers are allowed
(06:12):
to prosecute cases up toincluding a Class A misdemeanor
in court.
So, you know, all the all themotions and all the hearings and
that's all us.
SPEAKER_01 (06:22):
And at 3 a.m., who do they call when there's
something that happens?
SPEAKER_02 (06:25):
Yeah, exactly.
Called us because I was on callat least four days a week.
And we had an area which wasvery rural that um my department
wasn't 24 hours, the sheriff'sdepartment wasn't 24 hours, and
the state police were not 24hours.
So there was, you know, dispatchwas 24 hours, but yeah, but the
guys on the road weren't.
(06:46):
So, you know, that 3 a.m.
for the alarm or the earlymorning domestic, or um a couple
times the person that's at homethat probably shouldn't be at
home that has dementia or alltimers decides to get up and
take a walk, you're you'reyou're getting that call.
SPEAKER_01 (07:04):
And that DV after drinking from 11 a.m.
to 2 a.m.
is 11 p.m.
to 2 a.m.
I should say, is that's the onethat gets the call, right?
It's not like you're getting ahey, is everything okay?
Are you feeling good, Doug?
No, because they're not askingthat.
They want they don't care.
Yeah, they don't care.
Exactly.
They don't care.
So please continue your storyabout that.
SPEAKER_02 (07:22):
Yeah, so that so that's kind of where I'm coming
from.
Um but um so we had two we hadtwo children.
Um my oldest at that point, um,2014, 2015, is very heavily into
drugs, and this is the timeframe in which it's the height
of the opioid epidemic in theUnited States.
(07:45):
Um my county has to be uh in NewHampshire, it was Manchester was
number one, Nashville was numbertwo, and my my county, Carroll
County at per capita was numberthree.
Um my little hamlet of 1100people at one point, uh, I think
it was 2015, we had nineoverdoses, eight of them
(08:06):
non-fatal, but we did have onethat was fatal.
Um so I'm dealing with that.
I'm dealing with a son that's inthe throes of addiction uh very
heavily.
Uh he ends up racking up arrestsleft, right, and center, um, and
ends up for a very period for avery long period of time being
homeless on the streets.
(08:26):
And as a parent, um you kind oflower those expectations that
every day that he's he's aliveis a bonus, but you're expecting
to call at some point that youknow he either died of an
overdose, he died of theelements because winter time in
New Hampshire is pretty cold,uh, or uh he's been murdered in
(08:49):
one of these homelessencampments because somebody
wanted something he had.
Right.
Um, fortunately enough, none ofnone of that ever happened.
Um he ended up being arrested ina very significant arrest when
he was 21.
Um, and how he avoided prison, Ihave no idea.
But again, that's you know, hishis grandfather, his
(09:12):
grandparents who he was livingwith at the time, his
grandfather's a retired policeofficer.
Uh his dad's a police officer,so you know, there's that stress
of you know the family, thefamily shame, but also people
looking at our family and stufflike that, and people, you know,
that whole that whole stigmapart of it.
(09:32):
Um while that's going on.
I also had a my youngest cameout as gay and then hit the gas
pedal with rapid onset of genderdysphoria, going from gender
queer to gender fluid toeventually transgender.
Um and having to deal with thatin my family.
Um which the gay part was wasfine.
(09:56):
The this is back before thetransgender thing even was
there's no there was noguidebook, no nobody knew
anything about it.
SPEAKER_01 (10:04):
So I mean I would argue there's still not a good
guidebook, but anyway.
SPEAKER_02 (10:07):
Yeah, exactly.
But I would also say that, youknow, so probably, you know,
what we did at first, uh weprobably made a lot of mistakes.
Matter of fact, I know we a lotof I know we made a lot of
mistakes.
Um but those mistakes were, youknow, out of love um and trying
to help our child through a verydifficult period in their life.
(10:31):
Um and then in 2017, uh my wifeat the time, who had always
suffered from anxiety anddepression um in April of that
year, uh, it was an incident ather work that she wasn't even
involved in, but it ended upspiraling her out of control.
(10:51):
And like I told you earlier, youknow, probably in hindsight, it
was probably an undiagnosedbipolar.
Um but she was having audio andvisual hallucinations, she was
experiencing extreme paranoiafrom the incident.
Um and then the morning afterthe oldest son, who is now um in
(11:15):
recovery and doing fairly fairlywell, is about to have a child,
and the the baby shower is thenight before, and the morning
after is when my wife uh takesmy duty weapon and takes her own
life.
Um that um that whole incidentin itself.
(11:38):
Um it was invested as I toldyou, it was investigated as an
officer-involved shooting.
Um the county attorney at thetime didn't allow the local
police department to investigateuh the incident as I was an
alumnus of that department.
Um it was given to the statepolice major crime unit.
(12:00):
Um when I was taken to thehospital, I was put under
sequestration, um, put underguard.
Um you know, detectives came inand stripped me on my clothing,
um, left me in a room thatdidn't have a Johnny or a
blanket for about a half hourbefore I was able to get that.
Um and the the re I mean Iunderstand the reasons for it.
(12:23):
I was home at the time, I was inthe bathroom, I was getting
ready for work when it happened,but um, but it happened.
So um, but hindsight, I thinkthey I think they probably could
have done a little bit betterthere.
SPEAKER_01 (12:36):
Um you know I I've heard many stories around that,
and most people are not strippednaked.
Yeah, um, and I get why theywant to investigate.
I want understand they want totalk to you.
I understand all of that.
And if they want to give it tothe state police or the county
or whatever, it makes perfectsense to me again.
SPEAKER_02 (12:52):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (12:53):
What happened to you is a little over the top, if you
ask me.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (12:56):
Yeah, they wouldn't let my parents in, they wouldn't
let anybody in um for thelongest period of time.
Um but a couple good thingsstarted to happen right away.
I mean, one of the I think oneof the best decisions I ever
made that helped me in my ownhealing later on was that um I
made the decision not to gohome.
That the house was going to besold.
(13:17):
Um I stayed with my parents forabout a month or so.
Um they lived an hour south ofme, so um that month I was, you
know, separated from a lot ofthings.
Um but within the first 24 hoursthe uh the state police got me
one of their peer support peopleto talk to.
(13:38):
The New Hampshire Chiefs got meour guy to talk to.
Um and I had two friends thatwere pastors.
Uh one was my own and one was afriend of mine that was a
pastor.
And for about the next monthuntil I was able to find my own
counselor, um, you know,somebody would call me in the
morning, somebody called me atlunchtime, somebody called me at
dinner, somebody would call meat night before I went to bed.
(13:59):
So it was like having fourtherapy sessions a day until and
this lasted for about a month.
Like I said, it lasted for abouta month.
Um and then finally I found myown counselor, which was in my
church, who happened to be alicensed, licensed clinical
social worker, and she um was aretired Coast Guard officer, and
(14:19):
she had also had a policeofficer, husband that had died
in front of her.
Um they were hiking and he had aheart attack and died in front
of her.
So cultural competency is soessential.
Yeah, so she really she reallyunderstood.
Um and we came at it from aChristian perspective, not a not
a secular perspective, whichwhich, you know, to each his
(14:41):
own, but it worked, it workedfor me.
SPEAKER_01 (14:43):
But I'm gonna stop you for a second because I'm
gonna tell you one thing.
Those are all important facts,and what I mean by that is this
I'm a Buddhist myself, which youknow, if people like that
approach, that's great.
If they don't like it, I don'timpose it on anyone.
I just bring it up.
But for some people, that's whythey choose me.
When I work with firstresponders because of my
experience, they choose mebecause of that.
(15:04):
Because I was on a SISM team,because I worked on a crisis
team, some people choose mebecause I have crisis
experience.
Don't pretend to have a culturalcompetency that you don't have
because the person across fromyou is depending on it.
So when you talk about that toeach his own, I think that's how
you choose a culturallycompetent person.
And I know in my show I talk alot about first responders, but
(15:27):
Christian, Jewish,trauma-informed, uh, you know,
transgender.
You know, someone sends mesomeone who's transgender.
Not that I don't want to workwith them, I'm more than happy.
I have this limited experience.
I'm not the guy.
And that's not an attack.
We need to be able to say no.
But I think that that's wherefirst responders get shy about
(15:48):
asking those questions.
SPEAKER_02 (15:49):
Oh, exactly.
And it's like it's like anythingelse.
I mean, you wouldn't go ifyou're if you're a cardiac
patient, you wouldn't go to aproctologist.
SPEAKER_01 (15:55):
Yeah, I my podiatrist really helped me with
my heart.
SPEAKER_02 (15:58):
Yeah.
So I mean, yeah, so it's it'sit's it's critical for that.
And I think for me, it was ableto bring me that um, you know,
that in some in some instancesit can be lacking, that
forgiveness, salvation,redemption component, um, and
which I found to be very healingfor myself.
(16:20):
Um and two and a half years intotherapy, um she pretty much
said, you know, I'm just lifecoaching you here, so you're
you're graduated, so you know.
Um but it was a period of timethat I was able to lean into my
faith a lot.
Um it became you know very, veryfoundational to me.
(16:42):
Um and uh it leads leads who Iam now, uh, and I'm very proud
of that.
Um it gave me the inspiration toyou know go back to school, but
you know, not only like I couldhave taken like six classes and
completed my bachelor's degree,but I decided to, you know,
(17:02):
change up my major completely.
So my six classes became 18classes, and I got a bachelor's
in divinity rather than abachelor's in history.
SPEAKER_01 (17:11):
Right.
But but you know, like thatthat's the the healing process
from either suicide, fromhomicide, from a difficult any
type of healing.
I I think that what peoplemisunderstand, I I know this is
this is something that peopleneed to hear.
I treat what I call themind-body spirit.
And what I mean by that is ifyou say no, I want a Christian
(17:32):
person, I'll find you aChristian person.
No problem, no questions asked,that's fine with me.
But if you're gonna heal yourmind and you're gonna try to
heal your body, but you're notgonna heal your spirit, it
doesn't work.
SPEAKER_02 (17:43):
You've got to have you've got to have that
triangle.
That triangle has to be, it hasto be, you know, you have to
build, and I and truly I believethis is that you truly have to
build upon a strong spiritualfoundation because that
spiritual foundation allows youto get the capacity to be able
to deal with things and put itand be able to put it somewhere.
(18:04):
Um, and it doesn't, you know, inthe class we talk about, I said
it could be stoicism, it couldbe anything, but you have to
have a purpose higher thanyourself.
SPEAKER_01 (18:15):
I I argue even worse.
I'll argue with you that ifsomeone's an atheist, that means
you think that it's all over,there's nothing else.
Then you gotta do the best youcan while you're here.
And that's still a spiritualpractice.
Yeah, it is.
So to me, like when people deny,oh, I'm not spiritual, I'm like,
we're all spiritual.
We just practice it differently.
SPEAKER_02 (18:34):
Even an atheist is spiritual.
That's what I mean.
Because because they believe inwhat they believe.
So there's still there's stillsome type of belief system
that's in place there.
SPEAKER_01 (18:44):
I I I love going to my UU Um uh Unitarian
Universalist, for those whodon't know, um church for the
longest time because we talkedabout all faiths and it was so
eye-opening.
And I think that for me, when Italk about spirituality and
people who struggle with it, Isaid, when you practice your
spiritual belief system, does ithurt people?
(19:04):
And most people say, of coursenot.
And I said, then it's a goodspiritual practice.
Exactly.
SPEAKER_02 (19:09):
And I I'll put up in our class, I'll put up a couple
words on the board, and peoplelook at me like, how is that
related?
So I put faith, hope,disability, go, and impossible.
And they're like, How does thathow does that work?
I said, Well, using God as a asa generic term, okay, this is
(19:29):
what spirituality means.
It means so faith.
You have full assurance of theheart that you can hold on
because pain ends, okay, andthat the disability you think
you have, if you put go in frontof it, now it becomes in a
generic term, God is ability tobe able to get through the
(19:50):
impossible putting a uhapostrophe between I and M
because I'm possible.
Right, correct.
So that's that's all it is,folks.
SPEAKER_01 (20:02):
It's all it is.
But that yeah, but that's whatI'm happy we think we're talking
about this because people wholisten to this sometimes really
respond to that.
But the other part that I wantto bring up too is something you
mentioned that I think is soimportant.
I had this conversation withmultiple people.
Like for the first two weeks,whenever there's a loss,
suicide, homicide, people arethere.
They're gonna bring you a potroast, they're gonna go to the
(20:24):
funeral, they're gonna go to aservice.
I tell my wife, you got 30 days.
SPEAKER_02 (20:27):
You got you got 30 days.
Yeah.
I says, and and you're gonna beyou're gonna be overwhelmed with
it.
You got 30 days, you're gonna beoverwhelmed with support, stuff
like that.
For me, I was a little bitdifferent because I didn't
necessarily have that because Iremoved myself from my
community.
SPEAKER_01 (20:42):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (20:43):
So I didn't necessarily have that.
But you have 30 days wherepeople are they're inundating
you, you know, what can I do foryou?
What can I do?
You know, they're bringing youfood, they're bringing you this,
they're bringing you that.
I remember when I moved backhome after 30 days, okay?
And it was on the very generouskindness of somebody that was a
(21:06):
friend of mine, their friendsoffered me their vacation home
free of rent for an entire year.
And they're like, just heal, yougo do you.
But I remember walking into thathouse that night that's fully
furnished, nothing in it isfamiliar, and going, okay, now
(21:31):
what?
SPEAKER_01 (21:32):
Right.
Exactly.
Now what?
Yeah, I mean, you know, andlosing a spouse like that.
SPEAKER_02 (21:38):
Yeah.
You're like, where who am Igonna like who do I So I'm
looking at my dogs and I'mlooking at my dogs and looking
around the house going, okayguys, this is this is this is
this is it.
Okay, and you know, we're gonnawe're gonna be here for a little
bit.
Um I don't know what this isgonna look like, but Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (21:57):
You who knows, right?
And and when you you're sittingthere with all the support, and
then you're in an unfamiliararea, now you're suddenly now in
a situation where you gotta livewith that thought process.
Because I think that one of theother things too is um one of
the things I try to break downon this podcast, grief never
(22:18):
ends.
No, it doesn't, but you can manbut you can manage it.
No, no, I agree with you, butthat's what it is.
But if you're like after 30days, you should be good.
That's the what I mean aboutgrief never ends.
It's not like it's like in 30days.
SPEAKER_02 (22:31):
Yeah, and you're gonna have people, you're gonna
have people that are very wellintentioned, and a lot of people
is because they don't know whatto say that they'll stay,
they'll say stupid shit likethat.
Yeah.
Um, and or like, you know, it'llbe better in a year.
It's like, how the hell do youknow?
SPEAKER_01 (22:44):
She's in a better place.
I that to me is the most genericBS that you can say.
SPEAKER_02 (22:51):
Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_01 (22:52):
Like, how do you know?
SPEAKER_02 (22:53):
Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_01 (22:54):
And better than being with me?
SPEAKER_02 (22:56):
It's a and to some people that'll piss them off.
I mean, I took it for what itwas.
I understood that.
SPEAKER_01 (23:01):
I understand the spirit of what they say, but
it's still annoying.
SPEAKER_02 (23:04):
Yeah, it's uncomfortable, and I and I get
you're trying to be nice, butsometimes you just don't have to
say anything.
Just it's good to see you.
This the it's and leave it atand leave it at that.
You know, it doesn't, you know,everything doesn't have to be a
conversation.
SPEAKER_01 (23:21):
I tell people all the time, like for me sometimes
when they announce that intherapy or even my friends, I'm
like, I don't even know what tosay.
What do you need from me?
And if you don't know what youneed from me, I'll keep on being
there for you.
Because I don't I don't want tooffer other advice.
SPEAKER_02 (23:36):
If all you need is for me to sit by you right now
or you like process something,I'll just sit here and be quiet.
SPEAKER_01 (23:42):
I'll go sit in the in the raft and we'll go
fishing.
I don't fish much, but I'll doit.
Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_02 (23:48):
Whatever you need, whatever you need, and however
you need however you need me toshow up, I'm there.
And that's that's what needs toget across.
And the same holds true fordepartments.
Correct.
That's what and the same, youknow.
So like I said, you know, I hadthis happen to me, and I was
(24:09):
able to make some decisionsearly on, and I'm able to do all
this stuff, but I think it's forthe audience too, I think it's
it's incumbent for them to knowtoo that you know forward
progression comes out ofacceptance.
And that acceptance doesn't meanagreement.
Correct.
And love doesn't mean approval.
Okay.
So understanding that, right?
(24:31):
Okay, so you've acceptedsomething.
Okay, well you all you only haveafter acceptance, you only have
two choices.
Okay, you can do somethingdestructive or you can do
something destructive uhconstructive.
SPEAKER_01 (24:43):
Constructive.
SPEAKER_02 (24:44):
Okay, and like and like I tell my people, it's
like, you know, you can bebetter or you can be bitter.
Okay, it's it's your it's yourchoice, but either way, okay,
one, you know, it's gonna bejust as hard to be better as it
is to be bitter, but one of themyou're gonna be far better off
at the end than you are theother.
SPEAKER_01 (25:04):
So both kind of work, but not in a good way for
one of them.
The other one gives brings yousome of that forward.
SPEAKER_02 (25:10):
And and one of the things with grief too that
happens is that people, and itcan happen grief or even through
um, it can happen with acutestress, it can happen with
trauma, it can happen, you know,fun a lot of times you find it
in post-traumatic stress, isthat you have stuck brain.
Okay, and a lot of times allthat is is a fundamental
(25:33):
attribution error.
Okay?
That's all it is.
It's like, it's like so you wereso you're on a SWAT unit, you're
in the stack, okay, and the doorgets breached, and everybody
goes in, and the first guythrough the door catches around,
okay, and the and num number twoguy is stuck because he's like,
Well, if I had been front, well,you you would have been the one
(25:54):
that got shot.
Yeah.
It doesn't the objective part ofit, it doesn't matter who was
number one.
Okay, the fact is that ithappened, you need to accept it.
Okay, and the problem is thatyou're stuck, you're stuck with
if.
You're stuck at if.
Right.
Okay, and we have to help ourpeople try and get beyond if.
SPEAKER_01 (26:16):
Well, in my office, uh there's a sign that talks
about the seven dirty words ofmy office.
And most if you're not familiarwith George Carlin's from George
Carlin.
But mine is if but try could,should, would, probably.
SPEAKER_02 (26:29):
Oh, and yeah.
And playing the Monday morningquarterback with yourself,
playing the woulda, coulda,shoulda.
I mean, that that's a that's arabbit hole.
SPEAKER_01 (26:37):
You're just gonna You want to destroy yourself?
Then go ahead.
SPEAKER_02 (26:40):
You're just gonna you're just gonna keep on
digging.
SPEAKER_01 (26:43):
So the last thing before as we get as we're gonna
wrap up this first part here.
One of the things we talkedabout off air is also the
support that we get.
You don't need it from someonewith bars.
And yes, that's helpful.
Don't get me wrong,administration should support,
and I'm not putting the sayingthat doesn't exist, but we can
also offer help as an officer,as a absolutely.
SPEAKER_02 (27:05):
Every department has, every agency has your
official leaders, i.e.
the people that have thestripes, bars, and stars.
Okay, and you've also got theunofficial leaders.
Okay, so if somebody, ifsomebody in your department is
sick or they have like a brokenleg, but they need something
repaired on the house, you youknow the person to go to to say,
(27:25):
hey, Jimmy's gonna organizethis, and if he says, hey, we
all need to show up at Doug'shouse on Saturday, okay, 15
people are gonna show up and getit done.
Those are your informal leaders.
SPEAKER_01 (27:36):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (27:36):
Okay, and a lot of times, and I know we'll get into
it in a little while, but whathappens in departments when they
start to build wellnessprograms, they forget about
that.
You're a a wellness program isyour recruitment and retention
solution for the most part,because like I told you earlier,
it's like it's like it's like ifyou're proud of your house and
(27:56):
your house is in order, you wantother people to come in and see
it.
And then you want them to bepart of that.
So if you have a really goodwellness program and you've done
your job, you've done yourdiligence as a leader in your
department, a former leader inyour department, whether it be
chief captain, whatever you are,okay, and recruiting those
people that are gonna promotethat program for you, it's gonna
(28:20):
be all-encompassing and it'sgonna be holistic because you're
gonna be able, you're gonna bepeople, allow people to do what
they're good at, which isbringing other people in.
And it's gonna, it's gonna work.
You like like we talked about,you're gonna have that diffusion
of innovation where you're gonnahave your the people that come
up with the idea, then thepeople are like, oh yeah, that
makes sense to me, and thenyou're gonna have the ones that
(28:40):
are gonna follow along later.
By the time you're done withthis arc, okay, the ones that
are like the the never comingalongs are gonna be in the
minority.
SPEAKER_01 (28:51):
Well, I'm gonna stop you on that because I gotta
complete this episode.
I want to thank you, but forthose of you who will know, part
two is on on Friday.
So please join us then.
And again, thank you, Doug.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_00 (29:05):
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If you are in a mental healthcrisis, call 988 for assistance.
(29:29):
This number is available in theUnited States and Canada.
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Well, hi everyone, and welcometo episode 232.
If you haven't listened toepisode 231, it was with Lisa
(01:13):
Truasis.
And if I hope you'd listen toboth episodes, because that was
a great episode.
She talks about this batch, buther own personal story was
amazing.
And I hope you get to listen tothat.
But episode 232 is with someoneI just met, and I feel like
we're like bonding already, andI truly enjoy everything we
talked about.
We I think this is the longestuh pre-interview I've ever done.
(01:34):
And I think if we could havedone it another hour, we would
have.
And now that's a good thing,right?
But um I want to say hi toDouglas Wyman.
SPEAKER_02 (01:42):
Yep.
SPEAKER_01 (01:42):
Welcome to Resilience Development in
Action.
Um, you know, like I feel likeI'm getting to be your friend
already, and I appreciate that.
Um, but I don't think that theaudience might necessarily know
who you are.
So if you want to tell them alittle bit about who you are,
that'd be great.
SPEAKER_02 (01:58):
Great.
So again, my name is Doug Wyman,and I uh served 32 years in the
state of New Hampshire as apolice officer.
I retired in 2020 as the chiefof police for the town of
Sandwich, New Hampshire.
Uh currently I work as a staffinvestigator for the
Massachusetts Department ofMental Health.
Uh I've been doing, I've beenwith DMH now for probably about
(02:20):
coming up on five years.
Um and additional to that, um,kind of my side hustles are um I
teach a class on organizationalwellness, resilience, and
post-traumatic growth at thecommand and staff school at
Roger Williams University forthe New England Association of
Chiefs of Police at the firstline supervisor section.
(02:42):
Uh I'm also an instructor forcentral mass crisis intervention
teams, where I teach a class onsupporting LGBTQ youth and their
families.
And I am also on the ExecutiveLaw Enforcement Advisory Board
for Law Enforcement AgainstDrugs and Violence, which is a
national drug preventionprogram.
Um so I do that and amongstother things, including pursuing
(03:06):
my master's degree right now.
SPEAKER_01 (03:08):
So what's your master's gonna be in?
SPEAKER_02 (03:10):
It's gonna be in uh criminal justice.
Um as you saw, I have abachelor's in divinity and I'm
an ordained minister, but I feelthat my career at at this
moment, that degree is gonnahelp me more in my career than a
divinity degree will.
SPEAKER_01 (03:25):
Um and maybe eventually I'll go for the MDiv,
but one one day you should be atherapist, that's what I think.
SPEAKER_02 (03:34):
Because that's kind of the that's kind of the that's
kind of the focus.
SPEAKER_01 (03:37):
Because I think that what like what's fascinating is
you know, you read someone's bioand then you meet the person.
And you see a person on paperand they're pretty good, and
that's not an attack, it's justwhat it is.
And then we just spent like allthis time talking, and I'm like,
this human is absolutelyamazing.
(03:57):
So I don't even know where tostart because the the training,
I what I'm gonna link it to inthe show notes, because I think
that has to be people need tosee this because it's so
important.
Because we we talked about itoff-air, but I'm gonna repeat
what I said.
You know, uh we talked aboutcritical incidents, uh
civilians, I hear, is aboutseven or eight critical
(04:18):
civilians' lifetime.
And just during the job onaverage, I think it's for first
responders about 200.
That's an average, by the way.
That means some people are slowlower, but it means a lot of
people are higher too.
SPEAKER_02 (04:29):
Exactly.
SPEAKER_01 (04:30):
Um, and I know that not only adding to that is the
fact that your personal tragedythat came about from this.
Yes.
So I really don't know where togo.
Like I said, I I'm interested inall of that, but maybe we should
start about your personal storybecause I think that that's what
really makes people relate.
Um, you know, you said you werea chief.
(04:51):
Please keep on listening.
Uh I'm joking, of course.
But um I I would love to hearmore about your personal story
of personal loss.
And it, you know, again, uh myheart goes out to you, but sure
to explain it to the audience.
SPEAKER_02 (05:06):
And it it's multi-layered, um, as we talked
about, it is multi-layered.
Um but I think it's a testamentto the faith that I have um in
the above, and you know, thefaith I had uh or the the
support that I received from myfamily but uh and my friends.
Um but we're going back, youknow, like 2014, 2015.
(05:31):
Um my wife and I had twochildren.
Um I was promoted to chief in2009.
Uh so this is right in themiddle of middle of my career as
being a chief.
Um I was a chief for 11 years inNew Hampshire.
SPEAKER_01 (05:48):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (05:49):
Uh and I was a chief of a department which not only
was the administrator, but I wasalso my department was small
enough that I still had to do,not only did I have to do budget
and policy and all the chiefstuff, but I also had to answer
calls to cover accidents.
I had to investigate crimes, Ihad to prosecute cases in court,
um, because New Hampshire hasthat where officers are allowed
(06:12):
to prosecute cases up toincluding a Class A misdemeanor
in court.
So, you know, all the all themotions and all the hearings and
that's all us.
SPEAKER_01 (06:22):
And at 3 a.m., who do they call when there's
something that happens?
SPEAKER_02 (06:25):
Yeah, exactly.
Called us because I was on callat least four days a week.
And we had an area which wasvery rural that um my department
wasn't 24 hours, the sheriff'sdepartment wasn't 24 hours, and
the state police were not 24hours.
So there was, you know, dispatchwas 24 hours, but yeah, but the
guys on the road weren't.
(06:46):
So, you know, that 3 a.m.
for the alarm or the earlymorning domestic, or um a couple
times the person that's at homethat probably shouldn't be at
home that has dementia or alltimers decides to get up and
take a walk, you're you'reyou're getting that call.
SPEAKER_01 (07:04):
And that DV after drinking from 11 a.m.
to 2 a.m.
is 11 p.m.
to 2 a.m.
I should say, is that's the onethat gets the call, right?
It's not like you're getting ahey, is everything okay?
Are you feeling good, Doug?
No, because they're not askingthat.
They want they don't care.
Yeah, they don't care.
Exactly.
They don't care.
So please continue your storyabout that.
SPEAKER_02 (07:22):
Yeah, so that so that's kind of where I'm coming
from.
Um but um so we had two we hadtwo children.
Um my oldest at that point, um,2014, 2015, is very heavily into
drugs, and this is the timeframe in which it's the height
of the opioid epidemic in theUnited States.
(07:45):
Um my county has to be uh in NewHampshire, it was Manchester was
number one, Nashville was numbertwo, and my my county, Carroll
County at per capita was numberthree.
Um my little hamlet of 1100people at one point, uh, I think
it was 2015, we had nineoverdoses, eight of them
(08:06):
non-fatal, but we did have onethat was fatal.
Um so I'm dealing with that.
I'm dealing with a son that's inthe throes of addiction uh very
heavily.
Uh he ends up racking up arrestsleft, right, and center, um, and
ends up for a very period for avery long period of time being
homeless on the streets.
(08:26):
And as a parent, um you kind oflower those expectations that
every day that he's he's aliveis a bonus, but you're expecting
to call at some point that youknow he either died of an
overdose, he died of theelements because winter time in
New Hampshire is pretty cold,uh, or uh he's been murdered in
(08:49):
one of these homelessencampments because somebody
wanted something he had.
Right.
Um, fortunately enough, none ofnone of that ever happened.
Um he ended up being arrested ina very significant arrest when
he was 21.
Um, and how he avoided prison, Ihave no idea.
But again, that's you know, hishis grandfather, his
(09:12):
grandparents who he was livingwith at the time, his
grandfather's a retired policeofficer.
Uh his dad's a police officer,so you know, there's that stress
of you know the family, thefamily shame, but also people
looking at our family and stufflike that, and people, you know,
that whole that whole stigmapart of it.
(09:32):
Um while that's going on.
I also had a my youngest cameout as gay and then hit the gas
pedal with rapid onset of genderdysphoria, going from gender
queer to gender fluid toeventually transgender.
Um and having to deal with thatin my family.
Um which the gay part was wasfine.
(09:56):
The this is back before thetransgender thing even was
there's no there was noguidebook, no nobody knew
anything about it.
SPEAKER_01 (10:04):
So I mean I would argue there's still not a good
guidebook, but anyway.
SPEAKER_02 (10:07):
Yeah, exactly.
But I would also say that, youknow, so probably, you know,
what we did at first, uh weprobably made a lot of mistakes.
Matter of fact, I know we a lotof I know we made a lot of
mistakes.
Um but those mistakes were, youknow, out of love um and trying
to help our child through a verydifficult period in their life.
(10:31):
Um and then in 2017, uh my wifeat the time, who had always
suffered from anxiety anddepression um in April of that
year, uh, it was an incident ather work that she wasn't even
involved in, but it ended upspiraling her out of control.
(10:51):
And like I told you earlier, youknow, probably in hindsight, it
was probably an undiagnosedbipolar.
Um but she was having audio andvisual hallucinations, she was
experiencing extreme paranoiafrom the incident.
Um and then the morning afterthe oldest son, who is now um in
(11:15):
recovery and doing fairly fairlywell, is about to have a child,
and the the baby shower is thenight before, and the morning
after is when my wife uh takesmy duty weapon and takes her own
life.
Um that um that whole incidentin itself.
(11:38):
Um it was invested as I toldyou, it was investigated as an
officer-involved shooting.
Um the county attorney at thetime didn't allow the local
police department to investigateuh the incident as I was an
alumnus of that department.
Um it was given to the statepolice major crime unit.
(12:00):
Um when I was taken to thehospital, I was put under
sequestration, um, put underguard.
Um you know, detectives came inand stripped me on my clothing,
um, left me in a room thatdidn't have a Johnny or a
blanket for about a half hourbefore I was able to get that.
Um and the the re I mean Iunderstand the reasons for it.
(12:23):
I was home at the time, I was inthe bathroom, I was getting
ready for work when it happened,but um, but it happened.
So um, but hindsight, I thinkthey I think they probably could
have done a little bit betterthere.
SPEAKER_01 (12:36):
Um you know I I've heard many stories around that,
and most people are not strippednaked.
Yeah, um, and I get why theywant to investigate.
I want understand they want totalk to you.
I understand all of that.
And if they want to give it tothe state police or the county
or whatever, it makes perfectsense to me again.
SPEAKER_02 (12:52):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (12:53):
What happened to you is a little over the top, if you
ask me.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (12:56):
Yeah, they wouldn't let my parents in, they wouldn't
let anybody in um for thelongest period of time.
Um but a couple good thingsstarted to happen right away.
I mean, one of the I think oneof the best decisions I ever
made that helped me in my ownhealing later on was that um I
made the decision not to gohome.
That the house was going to besold.
(13:17):
Um I stayed with my parents forabout a month or so.
Um they lived an hour south ofme, so um that month I was, you
know, separated from a lot ofthings.
Um but within the first 24 hoursthe uh the state police got me
one of their peer support peopleto talk to.
(13:38):
The New Hampshire Chiefs got meour guy to talk to.
Um and I had two friends thatwere pastors.
Uh one was my own and one was afriend of mine that was a
pastor.
And for about the next monthuntil I was able to find my own
counselor, um, you know,somebody would call me in the
morning, somebody called me atlunchtime, somebody called me at
dinner, somebody would call meat night before I went to bed.
(13:59):
So it was like having fourtherapy sessions a day until and
this lasted for about a month.
Like I said, it lasted for abouta month.
Um and then finally I found myown counselor, which was in my
church, who happened to be alicensed, licensed clinical
social worker, and she um was aretired Coast Guard officer, and
(14:19):
she had also had a policeofficer, husband that had died
in front of her.
Um they were hiking and he had aheart attack and died in front
of her.
So cultural competency is soessential.
Yeah, so she really she reallyunderstood.
Um and we came at it from aChristian perspective, not a not
a secular perspective, whichwhich, you know, to each his
(14:41):
own, but it worked, it workedfor me.
SPEAKER_01 (14:43):
But I'm gonna stop you for a second because I'm
gonna tell you one thing.
Those are all important facts,and what I mean by that is this
I'm a Buddhist myself, which youknow, if people like that
approach, that's great.
If they don't like it, I don'timpose it on anyone.
I just bring it up.
But for some people, that's whythey choose me.
When I work with firstresponders because of my
experience, they choose mebecause of that.
(15:04):
Because I was on a SISM team,because I worked on a crisis
team, some people choose mebecause I have crisis
experience.
Don't pretend to have a culturalcompetency that you don't have
because the person across fromyou is depending on it.
So when you talk about that toeach his own, I think that's how
you choose a culturallycompetent person.
And I know in my show I talk alot about first responders, but
(15:27):
Christian, Jewish,trauma-informed, uh, you know,
transgender.
You know, someone sends mesomeone who's transgender.
Not that I don't want to workwith them, I'm more than happy.
I have this limited experience.
I'm not the guy.
And that's not an attack.
We need to be able to say no.
But I think that that's wherefirst responders get shy about
(15:48):
asking those questions.
SPEAKER_02 (15:49):
Oh, exactly.
And it's like it's like anythingelse.
I mean, you wouldn't go ifyou're if you're a cardiac
patient, you wouldn't go to aproctologist.
SPEAKER_01 (15:55):
Yeah, I my podiatrist really helped me with
my heart.
SPEAKER_02 (15:58):
Yeah.
So I mean, yeah, so it's it'sit's it's critical for that.
And I think for me, it was ableto bring me that um, you know,
that in some in some instancesit can be lacking, that
forgiveness, salvation,redemption component, um, and
which I found to be very healingfor myself.
(16:20):
Um and two and a half years intotherapy, um she pretty much
said, you know, I'm just lifecoaching you here, so you're
you're graduated, so you know.
Um but it was a period of timethat I was able to lean into my
faith a lot.
Um it became you know very, veryfoundational to me.
(16:42):
Um and uh it leads leads who Iam now, uh, and I'm very proud
of that.
Um it gave me the inspiration toyou know go back to school, but
you know, not only like I couldhave taken like six classes and
completed my bachelor's degree,but I decided to, you know,
(17:02):
change up my major completely.
So my six classes became 18classes, and I got a bachelor's
in divinity rather than abachelor's in history.
SPEAKER_01 (17:11):
Right.
But but you know, like thatthat's the the healing process
from either suicide, fromhomicide, from a difficult any
type of healing.
I I think that what peoplemisunderstand, I I know this is
this is something that peopleneed to hear.
I treat what I call themind-body spirit.
And what I mean by that is ifyou say no, I want a Christian
(17:32):
person, I'll find you aChristian person.
No problem, no questions asked,that's fine with me.
But if you're gonna heal yourmind and you're gonna try to
heal your body, but you're notgonna heal your spirit, it
doesn't work.
SPEAKER_02 (17:43):
You've got to have you've got to have that
triangle.
That triangle has to be, it hasto be, you know, you have to
build, and I and truly I believethis is that you truly have to
build upon a strong spiritualfoundation because that
spiritual foundation allows youto get the capacity to be able
to deal with things and put itand be able to put it somewhere.
(18:04):
Um, and it doesn't, you know, inthe class we talk about, I said
it could be stoicism, it couldbe anything, but you have to
have a purpose higher thanyourself.
SPEAKER_01 (18:15):
I I argue even worse.
I'll argue with you that ifsomeone's an atheist, that means
you think that it's all over,there's nothing else.
Then you gotta do the best youcan while you're here.
And that's still a spiritualpractice.
Yeah, it is.
So to me, like when people deny,oh, I'm not spiritual, I'm like,
we're all spiritual.
We just practice it differently.
SPEAKER_02 (18:34):
Even an atheist is spiritual.
That's what I mean.
Because because they believe inwhat they believe.
So there's still there's stillsome type of belief system
that's in place there.
SPEAKER_01 (18:44):
I I I love going to my UU Um uh Unitarian
Universalist, for those whodon't know, um church for the
longest time because we talkedabout all faiths and it was so
eye-opening.
And I think that for me, when Italk about spirituality and
people who struggle with it, Isaid, when you practice your
spiritual belief system, does ithurt people?
(19:04):
And most people say, of coursenot.
And I said, then it's a goodspiritual practice.
Exactly.
SPEAKER_02 (19:09):
And I I'll put up in our class, I'll put up a couple
words on the board, and peoplelook at me like, how is that
related?
So I put faith, hope,disability, go, and impossible.
And they're like, How does thathow does that work?
I said, Well, using God as a asa generic term, okay, this is
(19:29):
what spirituality means.
It means so faith.
You have full assurance of theheart that you can hold on
because pain ends, okay, andthat the disability you think
you have, if you put go in frontof it, now it becomes in a
generic term, God is ability tobe able to get through the
(19:50):
impossible putting a uhapostrophe between I and M
because I'm possible.
Right, correct.
So that's that's all it is,folks.
SPEAKER_01 (20:02):
It's all it is.
But that yeah, but that's whatI'm happy we think we're talking
about this because people wholisten to this sometimes really
respond to that.
But the other part that I wantto bring up too is something you
mentioned that I think is soimportant.
I had this conversation withmultiple people.
Like for the first two weeks,whenever there's a loss,
suicide, homicide, people arethere.
They're gonna bring you a potroast, they're gonna go to the
(20:24):
funeral, they're gonna go to aservice.
I tell my wife, you got 30 days.
SPEAKER_02 (20:27):
You got you got 30 days.
Yeah.
I says, and and you're gonna beyou're gonna be overwhelmed with
it.
You got 30 days, you're gonna beoverwhelmed with support, stuff
like that.
For me, I was a little bitdifferent because I didn't
necessarily have that because Iremoved myself from my
community.
SPEAKER_01 (20:42):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (20:43):
So I didn't necessarily have that.
But you have 30 days wherepeople are they're inundating
you, you know, what can I do foryou?
What can I do?
You know, they're bringing youfood, they're bringing you this,
they're bringing you that.
I remember when I moved backhome after 30 days, okay?
And it was on the very generouskindness of somebody that was a
(21:06):
friend of mine, their friendsoffered me their vacation home
free of rent for an entire year.
And they're like, just heal, yougo do you.
But I remember walking into thathouse that night that's fully
furnished, nothing in it isfamiliar, and going, okay, now
(21:31):
what?
SPEAKER_01 (21:32):
Right.
Exactly.
Now what?
Yeah, I mean, you know, andlosing a spouse like that.
SPEAKER_02 (21:38):
Yeah.
You're like, where who am Igonna like who do I So I'm
looking at my dogs and I'mlooking at my dogs and looking
around the house going, okayguys, this is this is this is
this is it.
Okay, and you know, we're gonnawe're gonna be here for a little
bit.
Um I don't know what this isgonna look like, but Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (21:57):
You who knows, right?
And and when you you're sittingthere with all the support, and
then you're in an unfamiliararea, now you're suddenly now in
a situation where you gotta livewith that thought process.
Because I think that one of theother things too is um one of
the things I try to break downon this podcast, grief never
(22:18):
ends.
No, it doesn't, but you can manbut you can manage it.
No, no, I agree with you, butthat's what it is.
But if you're like after 30days, you should be good.
That's the what I mean aboutgrief never ends.
It's not like it's like in 30days.
SPEAKER_02 (22:31):
Yeah, and you're gonna have people, you're gonna
have people that are very wellintentioned, and a lot of people
is because they don't know whatto say that they'll stay,
they'll say stupid shit likethat.
Yeah.
Um, and or like, you know, it'llbe better in a year.
It's like, how the hell do youknow?
SPEAKER_01 (22:44):
She's in a better place.
I that to me is the most genericBS that you can say.
SPEAKER_02 (22:51):
Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_01 (22:52):
Like, how do you know?
SPEAKER_02 (22:53):
Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_01 (22:54):
And better than being with me?
SPEAKER_02 (22:56):
It's a and to some people that'll piss them off.
I mean, I took it for what itwas.
I understood that.
SPEAKER_01 (23:01):
I understand the spirit of what they say, but
it's still annoying.
SPEAKER_02 (23:04):
Yeah, it's uncomfortable, and I and I get
you're trying to be nice, butsometimes you just don't have to
say anything.
Just it's good to see you.
This the it's and leave it atand leave it at that.
You know, it doesn't, you know,everything doesn't have to be a
conversation.
SPEAKER_01 (23:21):
I tell people all the time, like for me sometimes
when they announce that intherapy or even my friends, I'm
like, I don't even know what tosay.
What do you need from me?
And if you don't know what youneed from me, I'll keep on being
there for you.
Because I don't I don't want tooffer other advice.
SPEAKER_02 (23:36):
If all you need is for me to sit by you right now
or you like process something,I'll just sit here and be quiet.
SPEAKER_01 (23:42):
I'll go sit in the in the raft and we'll go
fishing.
I don't fish much, but I'll doit.
Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_02 (23:48):
Whatever you need, whatever you need, and however
you need however you need me toshow up, I'm there.
And that's that's what needs toget across.
And the same holds true fordepartments.
Correct.
That's what and the same, youknow.
So like I said, you know, I hadthis happen to me, and I was
(24:09):
able to make some decisionsearly on, and I'm able to do all
this stuff, but I think it's forthe audience too, I think it's
it's incumbent for them to knowtoo that you know forward
progression comes out ofacceptance.
And that acceptance doesn't meanagreement.
Correct.
And love doesn't mean approval.
Okay.
So understanding that, right?
(24:31):
Okay, so you've acceptedsomething.
Okay, well you all you only haveafter acceptance, you only have
two choices.
Okay, you can do somethingdestructive or you can do
something destructive uhconstructive.
SPEAKER_01 (24:43):
Constructive.
SPEAKER_02 (24:44):
Okay, and like and like I tell my people, it's
like, you know, you can bebetter or you can be bitter.
Okay, it's it's your it's yourchoice, but either way, okay,
one, you know, it's gonna bejust as hard to be better as it
is to be bitter, but one of themyou're gonna be far better off
at the end than you are theother.
SPEAKER_01 (25:04):
So both kind of work, but not in a good way for
one of them.
The other one gives brings yousome of that forward.
SPEAKER_02 (25:10):
And and one of the things with grief too that
happens is that people, and itcan happen grief or even through
um, it can happen with acutestress, it can happen with
trauma, it can happen, you know,fun a lot of times you find it
in post-traumatic stress, isthat you have stuck brain.
Okay, and a lot of times allthat is is a fundamental
(25:33):
attribution error.
Okay?
That's all it is.
It's like, it's like so you wereso you're on a SWAT unit, you're
in the stack, okay, and the doorgets breached, and everybody
goes in, and the first guythrough the door catches around,
okay, and the and num number twoguy is stuck because he's like,
Well, if I had been front, well,you you would have been the one
(25:54):
that got shot.
Yeah.
It doesn't the objective part ofit, it doesn't matter who was
number one.
Okay, the fact is that ithappened, you need to accept it.
Okay, and the problem is thatyou're stuck, you're stuck with
if.
You're stuck at if.
Right.
Okay, and we have to help ourpeople try and get beyond if.
SPEAKER_01 (26:16):
Well, in my office, uh there's a sign that talks
about the seven dirty words ofmy office.
And most if you're not familiarwith George Carlin's from George
Carlin.
But mine is if but try could,should, would, probably.
SPEAKER_02 (26:29):
Oh, and yeah.
And playing the Monday morningquarterback with yourself,
playing the woulda, coulda,shoulda.
I mean, that that's a that's arabbit hole.
SPEAKER_01 (26:37):
You're just gonna You want to destroy yourself?
Then go ahead.
SPEAKER_02 (26:40):
You're just gonna you're just gonna keep on
digging.
SPEAKER_01 (26:43):
So the last thing before as we get as we're gonna
wrap up this first part here.
One of the things we talkedabout off air is also the
support that we get.
You don't need it from someonewith bars.
And yes, that's helpful.
Don't get me wrong,administration should support,
and I'm not putting the sayingthat doesn't exist, but we can
also offer help as an officer,as a absolutely.
SPEAKER_02 (27:05):
Every department has, every agency has your
official leaders, i.e.
the people that have thestripes, bars, and stars.
Okay, and you've also got theunofficial leaders.
Okay, so if somebody, ifsomebody in your department is
sick or they have like a brokenleg, but they need something
repaired on the house, you youknow the person to go to to say,
(27:25):
hey, Jimmy's gonna organizethis, and if he says, hey, we
all need to show up at Doug'shouse on Saturday, okay, 15
people are gonna show up and getit done.
Those are your informal leaders.
SPEAKER_01 (27:36):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (27:36):
Okay, and a lot of times, and I know we'll get into
it in a little while, but whathappens in departments when they
start to build wellnessprograms, they forget about
that.
You're a a wellness program isyour recruitment and retention
solution for the most part,because like I told you earlier,
it's like it's like it's like ifyou're proud of your house and
(27:56):
your house is in order, you wantother people to come in and see
it.
And then you want them to bepart of that.
So if you have a really goodwellness program and you've done
your job, you've done yourdiligence as a leader in your
department, a former leader inyour department, whether it be
chief captain, whatever you are,okay, and recruiting those
people that are gonna promotethat program for you, it's gonna
(28:20):
be all-encompassing and it'sgonna be holistic because you're
gonna be able, you're gonna bepeople, allow people to do what
they're good at, which isbringing other people in.
And it's gonna, it's gonna work.
You like like we talked about,you're gonna have that diffusion
of innovation where you're gonnahave your the people that come
up with the idea, then thepeople are like, oh yeah, that
makes sense to me, and thenyou're gonna have the ones that
(28:40):
are gonna follow along later.
By the time you're done withthis arc, okay, the ones that
are like the the never comingalongs are gonna be in the
minority.
SPEAKER_01 (28:51):
Well, I'm gonna stop you on that because I gotta
complete this episode.
I want to thank you, but forthose of you who will know, part
two is on on Friday.
So please join us then.
And again, thank you, Doug.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_00 (29:05):
Please like, subscribe, and follow this
podcast on your favoriteplatform.
A glowing review is alwayshelpful.
And as a reminder, this podcastis for informational,
educational, and entertainmentpurposes only.
If you're struggling with amental health or substance abuse
issue, please reach out to aprofessional counselor for
consultation.
If you are in a mental healthcrisis, call 988 for assistance.
(29:29):
This number is available in theUnited States and Canada.
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