February 18, 2026 • 27 mins
When a split-second choice could become tomorrow’s headline, how do you stay human under the uniform? We sit down with former deputy sheriff turned coach and author AK Dozanti to unpack the real toll of first responder life—and the science-backed tools that help you heal without losing your edge.
AK traces a rare path: undercover ICAC work at 19, road patrol, officer of the year, rapid burnout, then a pivot into victim advocacy, graduate study in criminology and victimology, yoga teacher training, and ultimately a mission to coach police, fire, EMS, and dispatch. She shares how early suicide losses set a hidden baseline for stress, why trauma is a near-universal experience rather than a diagnosis, and how high-velocity calls collide with a nervous system built for survival, not perfection. We break down the biology of stress—adrenaline surges, the brainstem’s grip, and the prefrontal cortex going offline—and show how that clashes with modern expectations: body cams rolling, phones pointed, pristine Miranda, and zero room for error.
We also tackle the weight of public narratives: how one viral failure can stain an entire profession, how ambushes and doxxing amplify hypervigilance, and why the “off switch” at home can be the hardest skill of all. AK offers practical, field-tested resets for the nervous system—slow exhale breathing, orienting, grounding through the feet, and micro-recoveries between calls—along with culture shifts leaders can make today: protect days off, normalize precise language around suicide, include dispatch in wellness training, and reward process over speed. The goal isn’t spin; it’s operational readiness and human dignity.
If you serve on the front lines or love someone who does, this conversation gives you language, tools, and hope. Subscribe, share with a teammate, and leave a review to help more first responders find what they need. What practice will you try first?
Visit her website at: www.akdozanti.com
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Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_01 (00:01):
Welcome to Resilience Development in Action
with Steve Bisson.
This is the podcast dedicated tofirst responder mental health,
helping police, fire, EMS,dispatchers, and paramedics
create better growthenvironments for themselves and
their teams.
Let's get started.ai.
SPEAKER_00 (00:37):
You heard me talk about it.
I'm gonna keep on talking aboutit because I love it.
I've had about a year and ahalf, 18 months practice with
it, and I still enjoy it.
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(01:47):
that will save you time andmoney.
And I highly encourage you to doso.
Well, hi everyone, and welcometo episode 243.
If you haven't listened toepisode 242, go listen to it
with Susan Rogendorf, a friendof the podcast.
Crisis work, mental health,first responders, the whole nine
yards.
(02:07):
She's really great.
But today I have someone that Imet through LinkedIn and I saw
all of her stuff.
It was always fascinating to me,and I really appreciated her.
So I wanted to have her on.
So I bugged her and shegenuinely generously offered to
be on here.
AK Desante, welcome toResilience Development in
Action.
SPEAKER_02 (02:25):
Thank you.
I'm excited to be here.
SPEAKER_00 (02:28):
Well, you know, I'm excited to hear like I looked at
the stuff you put on LinkedIn,then I went to your website and
I see a lot of the stuff thatyou did.
I was kind of sad.
I saw that you were in my areain September last year for a
presentation at New EnglandCollege.
SPEAKER_02 (02:42):
Oh yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (02:43):
I wish I would have gone there because it's not too
far from my humble abode inHolliston, Massachusetts.
So going to City California, Iknow you have one coming up in
California, it's kind of a likea long ride for me, so I can't
really do that one.
SPEAKER_02 (02:57):
But uh yeah, well, it's it's a long, long haul for
me too.
But I was actually just inConnecticut a couple of months
ago.
So I'm gonna have to startposting my upcoming events
because people are moreinterested now.
SPEAKER_00 (03:12):
I and I I'm very interested, and I really, you
know, honestly, the hardest partof my job is I meet great people
here face to face, so to speak,on a computer, but I never get
to meet them face to face.
Part of why I'm doing apresentation at the fraternity
something police in Las Vegas inuh March, so I can actually meet
(03:32):
a couple of people I'veinterviewed and they're like,
Oh, I'll be there, we'll say hi,and all that.
So that's really cool.
But you know, like I said, Iread a lot about your stuff.
I saw some stuff on LinkedIn,but I'm sure my audience may not
know who you are.
So, how about you introduceyourself a little?
SPEAKER_02 (03:47):
Yeah, well, I appreciate the kind words.
So I day to day, my in my normallife am wife and a mom and a dog
mom and just normal stuff.
But I am a speaker, an author,and a coach for first
responders.
And before all that, I was Istarted my law enforcement
(04:07):
career at 19 years old doingundercover online
investigations.
That led me to going to theacademy at 20 and led me into
being a deputy sheriff.
And the bulk of my career therewas on afternoon shift road
patrol.
We were like, we were having funmost most of the time.
(04:28):
And in 2015, I went from officerof the year to a complete
burnout, and at that point wentand became a criminal court
victim advocate.
During that time, I went backand got my master's degree in
criminology and victimology,which is where I started to
understand what trauma was andthat it wasn't exclusive to
(04:49):
victims, it wasn't a dirty word,it wasn't a weakness, it was
something that nearly everyhuman being experiences.
So simultaneously, because I mynervous system wasn't ready to
slow down, I was also goingthrough a 10-month yoga teacher
training and I started tounderstand the physiology of
stress and trauma.
And I had all these like ding,ding, ding, ding alarm bells
(05:12):
going off in my brain.
And I went down every possiblerabbit hole I could find.
And in 2020, I left thatposition for other reasons.
But then in 21, I createdLifeSaver Wellness and I started
coaching people, developingcurriculums and training, and
did a whole lot more researchand certifications and all of
(05:34):
that.
And that morphed into keynotesand lots of different
opportunities.
And I have since authored twobooks, and now I'm here with you
today.
SPEAKER_00 (05:45):
Well, I would love to hear more about those books,
and particularly the otherthing, too, is I will want, I'll
buy one and you can sign it forme because I always like to get
that from my guests.
And you brought up about 14other questions.
Just hearing a 19-year-old beingundercover is brought me a
question.
You doing all these thingsbrought up ADD and ADHD, and how
(06:07):
many first responders have thisproblem in general?
It's not a really problembecause it helps them in their
career, but sometimes it becomesin the way at the long term.
And then you talked abouttrauma, and then what I kill
myself saying to a lot ofpeople, and I had that
conversation this morning withsomeone is like trauma and PTSD
are two different things.
Everyone has trauma.
(06:29):
PTSD is a diagnosis that hasspecific issues.
So when you talk about traumaand we talk about a victim, it
only has weight if you decide ithas weight.
But anyway, I can go on and on,but a lot of stuff that you
talked about.
How do we be but like the firstthing that came to mind is I've
seen firefighters, you know,it's in the family, so they
become firefighters at 18because dad, grandpa, uncle,
(06:53):
whatever did it.
But being 19 years old andundercover, I don't hear that a
whole lot from any like policepeople, so very intrigued as to
how that starts off.
SPEAKER_02 (07:06):
Okay, so I was I was in the criminal justice program
in my undergrad, and I got anopportunity to shadow this
department that was workingunder the umbrella of the
Internet Crimes Against ChildrenTask Force or ICAC task force.
And it was a very small agency,which was a great benefit to
them because they wereundercover and they were
(07:27):
bringing people like anyway.
So I go to shadow them and I amexposed to this world that I had
no idea because I wasn't reallymind you, this was like in 2007.
So first of all, I wasn't reallylike a tech savvy person, and
(07:48):
second, all of this internetstuff was kind of just emerging.
So I was exposed to this and Iwas like, this is heinous.
Like, we've got to do something.
There, these these people arecomplete predators, and they
think they're talking to a14-year-old.
(08:08):
And so if you can remember,Chris Hansen to catch a
predator.
Now, this is real life withoutthe entrapment charges.
So it was, but I was I waschatting with them online and
then a decoy for them.
And the operations were verysuccessful, and it just led me
(08:29):
into this world that I was like,I have to do something, I have
to continue to do something.
And I was like, How do I gethere?
How do I do this for real?
Because I was an auxiliaryofficer at that point.
And they said, Well, you don'tjust jump to being an
investigator or detective.
You have to go through theacademy and be a road cop and do
(08:49):
all this.
And I was like, sign me up likeyesterday.
So I had to wait because likeyou can't actually be a sworn
officer until you're 21.
So I had to wait until I was 20to go to the academy, and then I
still had to wait to becommissioned.
So that's how that went down.
SPEAKER_00 (09:07):
Okay.
Well, you know, and then itbrings up the question of
19-year-old undercover, youknow, the to catch a predator,
so to speak.
So is that where your traumastarted, or did it happen before
that?
Because that's what I findsometimes is that people do that
for a while and they're like,there's a vile people out there,
(09:27):
and it starts like reallystarting to change their view of
the world.
SPEAKER_02 (09:31):
Yeah.
So interestingly, and I'veactually never even said this on
a podcast or anything.
Growing up, my dad was a trapperby trade.
So it was nothing for me to seeanimals being killed all the
time.
I don't know that that was anykind of I didn't register that
(09:52):
as trauma.
I still don't.
SPEAKER_00 (09:54):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (09:54):
But it's not normal as like a seven-year-old to see
animals being killed all thetime.
So that could have contributedto it.
But in my upbringing, Iexperienced a lot of death.
And at 14, girl that I was on asports team with died by
suicide.
At 15, a friend of mine'sfather, who was our soccer
(10:19):
coach, died by suicide.
And at 17, I lost my best friendsince we were four years old in
daycare to suicide.
So there was a lot thathappened.
And then two years later, I'mlike, I'm gonna save the world
and unknowingly go into aprofession where I'm going to
(10:41):
experience a lot of things thatmight are going to be
overwhelming to my brain and mysystem.
And so looking back, it's reallyno wonder why I burned out after
just a few years.
It was actually a culmination ofmy whole life.
So yeah, that definitely lookingback contributed to it, but that
(11:03):
was not the beginning of it forsure.
SPEAKER_00 (11:05):
Well, I think that, you know, we talk about the
accumulation of stuff.
I I explain that sometimestrauma is like putting 10 pounds
of shit in a five-pound bag.
It just starts leaking all overthe place.
And if you don't believe me,I've said this before too.
Go see Metbusters, they triedit, and it works out exactly how
you probably think it workedout.
So at the end of the day, Imean, I think that that's what's
(11:27):
funny is that sometimes peoplego through a lot in their young
age.
I was talking to another policeofficer today, and he was
saying, like, you know, some ofthe shit I went through as a
kid, that's what made me want tobecome a cop.
Because I didn't want people tofollow that.
And ironically, I thinktherapists do that too, but
that's a different story for adifferent day.
But I I do believe that suicideis like those are the starting
(11:48):
of the accumulation of stuffbecause we still there's still a
huge stigma around suicide, andit's hard to talk about it.
And when it happens to someonethat you love and appreciate,
how do you bring it up to otherpeople in order to discuss it?
And I don't know if you wereable to discuss it, or was it
more like, you know, thathappened, move on, or like
again, the secret that no onetalks about?
SPEAKER_02 (12:11):
I was so young, and I guess I wasn't crazy young,
obviously, but I was still ateenager.
And so I I just didn't have thelanguage or the tools to express
what I was experiencing, and thethe people around me didn't know
how to handle it either.
(12:31):
And I don't, I'm not blamingthem by any means.
Um, it it's not something youever want to have to prepare to
deal with, and so it was kind ofjust one of those things where
you just keep going.
The the biggest one inparticular was my my lifelong
best friend.
And when she died, it was thebig or I'm sorry, the end of
(12:55):
May.
And that summer, I know that Iworked two jobs and went on a
family vacation, but I cannotrecall any of that.
I can't recall anything until Iwent back to school for my
senior year that fall.
So it was kind of just put yourhead down and keep going.
(13:17):
And that was that kind it itthat really helped formulate
some of my grit, but it alsodidn't allow me to offload any
anything that I was just goingthrough.
SPEAKER_00 (13:30):
And you know, I when I talk about this too, when
people I know no one is blamingtheir family, no one's blaming
anyone, it's just someone ofthose things that generationally
we didn't talk about.
And to this day, still, I mean,if you ask me, suicide is a big
secret at times too, becausethey they gotta say people died
suddenly, or people died, andsometimes you're like, so when I
(13:52):
hear suddenly, I go, overdose ofsuicide.
And but that's maybe me beingsavvy as to what that means, and
I see that particularly with thefirst responder world, where
suicide is a very dirty word totalk about because you know, we
have every three days there's acompleted suicide in the police
force in in the United Statesalone.
(14:14):
I'm sure across the worldthere's a lot more, and that's
because of the stress and thestuff that first responders face
on a regular basis that theydon't talk about because like
you said, you know, you you hadyour burnout, but sometimes
burnout leads to I'm not goodenough or I don't want to be
from this world again.
And I know that with technologynowadays, first responders face
(14:34):
a shitload of different thingsthan maybe 20, 30 years ago,
first responders did not face.
Can you speak a little bit aboutthose challenges that they face
and how to handle it?
Because to me, having, and I Iuse an example of one of my
clients who talked to me aboutit, when you're doing an arrest
and doing everything right,still having someone's iPhone
(14:55):
pointed at you is a huge pain inthe ass and is traumatic.
And you start overthinking.
Did I say this?
Did I do this?
Did I do that?
And you don't say it out loud,you just say it in your head.
You write your police reportdifferently, but in your head
you say a lot of differentthings.
But that's just a thought.
I just want to know what youthink about this for the
stressors they now face.
SPEAKER_02 (15:14):
Well, so I left full-time law enforcement in
2015.
So a lot of what they're dealingwith now has evolved since then,
but I can see it.
And and I talk, you know, in myclients, we talk about some of
those things and just thepressures of, you know, am I
gonna be the next headline?
(15:35):
And and I did somewhatexperience that.
I had a strange incident where Ialmost shot an 11-year-old.
And in the back of my mind, asI'm squeezing the trigger or
starting to rock back on thetrigger, that was a thought.
Am I gonna be the next headline?
And thank God that situationworked out the for everybody
(15:56):
being safe and everything wasfine.
But but the fact that you evenhave to think about the public
scrutiny in moments of life ordeath situations is really
insane because once you realizehow the brain operates and how
(16:16):
when you're when you get anadrenaline dump or you're in the
middle of a stress response,you're you're operating out of
your brainstem, you're operatingout of that primal caveman
brain.
You don't have access to reasonand logic and critical thinking
in the place where words areborn.
Like you don't have access tothat prefrontal cortex.
(16:38):
Yet, first responders areexpected to navigate a life or
death situation and think aboutall those other things at the
same time.
Read Miranda and make sureyou're getting make sure that
the arrest that you're making isvalid that because you have all
of the elements of the crime,you know, as you're wrestling
with this person, you know.
(17:00):
Right.
And making sure that you're notdoing anything that somebody
else is going to judge you foron Monday morning.
And that's really difficult.
That's a lot of added pressurethat that weighs on you, and it
just it constricts your abilityto tolerate the job and normal
(17:22):
everyday life, really.
SPEAKER_00 (17:24):
Right.
I mean, you just talked aboutfight or flight response, right?
Because that's where we stay inthe primitive brain versus their
our our like cerebral cortex,never mind the prefrontal and
the frontal cortex.
There's a lot of decisions to bemade.
You talked about being 21 to besworn in.
Frankly, I think 25 is when yourbrain stops being like it's
(17:44):
fully developed.
I think sometimes I wonder if 25would be a better age, not only
for that, but for a shitloadmore of other stuff, because we
don't have a lot of judgmentbefore that that's really,
really thought out.
But I also think that what yousaid is also very important.
Am I going to be the nextheadline?
I've talked about this before onmy podcast, and I'll say it
again.
If a therapist fucks up inWashington, you know how much
(18:08):
that affects me here inMassachusetts?
Right, exactly.
Very little for those of you whoare listening to a little or
zero, it doesn't even affect me.
Well, probably you don't want,frankly, we won't even hear
about it.
Frankly, I was on a committeefor a company for a while where
we vetted people and we lookedat these charges and stuff, and
some I'm like, they're stillpracticing after that.
(18:30):
I can't talk about what it was,but I'm like, holy fuck.
But that's what happens withtherapists.
It gets, you know, no one's someif it makes the paper, you're
lucky if it makes the back page.
But when you're a police officerand you fuck up in Arizona,
well, every cop in the UnitedStates of America are fuck-ups.
Not that singular cop inArizona.
(18:53):
And that's a pressure that Ifind is very unrealistic for any
job.
And no one understands that,particularly police, get that
scrutiny.
And if if I don't want totrigger anyone listening to
this, but if you are triggered,we can talk.
Think about the Black LivesMatter protests and how you
know, yeah, there were badthings that happened, and we
(19:15):
agree.
And a lot of the cops I spoke tohave said to me, Yeah, those are
bad things that happened, andthose are not cops we support.
Yet the same cop who is, quote,a nice person, woman or man, got
pissed thrown at them, bottlesthrown at them, batteries thrown
at them, and that's because somecop in Missouri and Florida
fucked up, not the guy in we'llsay Burlington, Vermont.
(19:39):
So I don't know if that's partof what you also see, but that's
certainly a pressure that noother job in the world is like
that.
SPEAKER_02 (19:46):
Yeah.
And and when I left in 2015,that was shortly after Ferguson.
And that that did not contributeto my leaving.
My my departure was because ofmy own internal issues.
But I'd be lying if I didn't saythat certain events, because the
(20:10):
way public sees things thatofficers do certainly affects
that that perspective.
But it goes both ways becausewhen there's an officer that's
attacked, or there's some kindof an ambush or something like
that, now we're going, oh crap,that bullseye that's on my back
(20:30):
now has a neon light on it.
And I feel like I've got a laserpointed in my at my forehead.
So that sends our alerts wayhigher because it so it goes
both ways, right?
And being like already in fightor flight often as you're on
(20:51):
duty is one thing, but thenyou've got people, you've got
officers being attacked andambushed at their homes and
they're being doxxed.
And now you're like, I can't,there's nowhere in this world I
can go and feel safe.
And being able to downshift fromthat fight or flight is being
(21:12):
able to establish a felt senseof safety within your body.
And if you can't do that, you'regoing to burn out, you're going
to experience health issues andmental health issues, and your
relationships are going to fallapart.
All of these things are naturalbyproducts of living that way.
And it's and it's no fault tothem.
(21:33):
It's just, you know, it's anatural byproduct of the
environment, and that's sad tosee.
And it's it's very frustratingto have lived it and to be on
the other side of it now andstill see people in it.
SPEAKER_00 (21:49):
As a therapist who has done this work for a
multitude of years, it isfrustrating to see people go
through that.
And it is frustrating to havethat perception from the public.
And I one day I got so angrywith a civilian, and yes, I'm a
civilian too, don't get mewrong, who told me, you know,
(22:10):
all cops want a blankety blank.
I can't even remember what thecomment was, but something
fucking vulgar.
And I said, Oh, okay.
So if I said that about blackpeople, what would you say?
That's terrible.
That's an over-generalized.
Oh, but you're allowed toovergeneralize about cops.
Is that what you're telling me?
And they did not like that.
They did not like, but that'sthat's unfortunately the other
(22:31):
part of the uh narrative that Ijust can't stand is that you
know, don't discriminate towardspeople.
Someone messes up, that's woman,poor, rich, whatever, they're
not all like that.
Somehow police, though, they'reall like that.
Yet isn't that the same fuckingdiscrimination, if you ask me?
SPEAKER_02 (22:51):
People tend to forget that exceptions prove the
rule, not the other way around.
SPEAKER_00 (22:58):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (22:59):
And when you when you look at the the statistics
of how often these awful,terrible, no good things happen
in in the media or in just inthe world, because when things
like this happen, they make themedia, it makes the news.
When you look at the statisticsof how often those things happen
versus how many interactionspolice have with the public
(23:23):
every single day, it'sminuscule.
It doesn't even hit the chart.
It doesn't even, it's not even,it's basically non-existent.
And people don't realize that.
And I'm not saying it doesn'thappen.
I'm not saying that it doesn'tmatter when it happens.
But what I'm saying is I wish Ihad the numbers in front of me
because it's it's outrageous.
But when you actually do theresearch, it is wild how little
(23:48):
these police brutality issuesactually occur.
And I'm I'm gonna stop myselfthere because I will go
completely down a rabbit holethat I've got to do.
SPEAKER_00 (24:01):
But I will respect the fact that you don't want to.
But for me, it it is aboutrealizing that anyone I've ever
worked with who saw somethingwrong happen with another police
officer, they would tell methat's wrong.
I don't follow this.
This but no one wants to hearthat.
No one wants to be able tolisten to that.
(24:22):
Because if you think about Idon't have the stats either, but
let's say you get four calls anight.
That's I'm being veryconservative.
Four calls in a day, and you dothat four days a week.
I don't know if it's a 5-2 inOhio, but it's a 4-2 around here
with shift work.
You do that what 250 days ayear, give or take.
(24:43):
And you do four interventions,that's a thousand interventions.
And if you have one crappy one,that's one out of one thousand,
which is not what is that zeropoint zero one percent?
So, yeah, that does happen.
We're not saying that it doesnot, but for all the good calls
that occur, where's therecognition?
SPEAKER_02 (25:02):
Yeah, it's it's really wild.
And again, I wish I had thestats in front of me because I
think it's like point zero zerozero zero zero zero one is how
often use of force is is jumpedor escalated beyond what it
warranted.
Right.
But I know you're stopped.
I I gotta stop you or elsedifferent day conversation.
SPEAKER_00 (25:24):
I'd love to hear that more.
Well, maybe we can have thatconversation off air.
But I also think that the otherstat that I like to tell people
is that you know, 95% of anyfirst responders when do their
job, go home safe, and that'stheir goal.
And help the community in themiddle if they can.
In my job, there's 95% oftherapists that are just here to
(25:46):
care and support and lovepeople, and name any profession.
95% of them just want to do whatthey can to help people.
Five percent are assholes.
Guess what?
Same thing with police, samething with any job that you can
possibly imagine.
Because if I've heard peoplelike, oh no, I'm not like that.
So I said, So if I went throughall your work colleagues at this
(26:07):
bank, all of them are stellarhuman beings that are really on
top of everything.
Well, and I'm like, and they'relike, Well, you know, police
take an oat and firefighterstake an oat.
And I'm like, that doesn't meanthey're not human.
That doesn't mean that peopledon't slip between the cracks,
because that happens in the bestof scrutinies.
So we need to be mindful thatit's not like police are any
(26:29):
different than any other humanbeing in this world or any job
for them.
SPEAKER_02 (26:33):
And and usually when they get sniffed out, they're
out.
Like, and there are rareoccasions where some other
department will, you know, notdo their due diligence and
rehire them or whatever, butit's that's pretty rare.
I I've seen plenty of people getkicked to the curb and they
can't find another job anywhereelse, and there's reasons for
(26:54):
that.
SPEAKER_00 (26:54):
So well, I I've seen that too many times, but it's
also being able to have duediligence everywhere you go.
And I respect anyone who knowswhat that means in their
personal life as well as theirwork life.
But anyway, we're we're alreadyapproaching the half hour.
Would you want to stay aroundand uh do part two with me?
Yeah, absolutely.
(27:15):
All right, so we're gonna wrapthis up here and we're gonna
meet on the other side.
And I really thank you for yourtime.
And for those of you who arelistening, come back on next
Friday, or you will be able tolisten to part two.
But here we so thank you.
SPEAKER_01 (27:31):
Please like, subscribe, and follow this
podcast on your favoriteplatform.
A glowing review is alwayshelpful.
And as a reminder, this podcastis for informational,
educational, and entertainmentpurposes only.
If you're struggling with amental health or substance abuse
issue, please reach out to aprofessional counselor for
consultation.
If you are in a mental healthcrisis, call 988 for assistance.
(27:54):
This number is available in theUnited States and Canada.
Welcome to Resilience Development in Action
with Steve Bisson.
This is the podcast dedicated tofirst responder mental health,
helping police, fire, EMS,dispatchers, and paramedics
create better growthenvironments for themselves and
their teams.
Let's get started.ai.
SPEAKER_00 (00:37):
You heard me talk about it.
I'm gonna keep on talking aboutit because I love it.
I've had about a year and ahalf, 18 months practice with
it, and I still enjoy it.
And it saves me time and itsaves me energy.
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(01:47):
that will save you time andmoney.
And I highly encourage you to doso.
Well, hi everyone, and welcometo episode 243.
If you haven't listened toepisode 242, go listen to it
with Susan Rogendorf, a friendof the podcast.
Crisis work, mental health,first responders, the whole nine
yards.
(02:07):
She's really great.
But today I have someone that Imet through LinkedIn and I saw
all of her stuff.
It was always fascinating to me,and I really appreciated her.
So I wanted to have her on.
So I bugged her and shegenuinely generously offered to
be on here.
AK Desante, welcome toResilience Development in
Action.
SPEAKER_02 (02:25):
Thank you.
I'm excited to be here.
SPEAKER_00 (02:28):
Well, you know, I'm excited to hear like I looked at
the stuff you put on LinkedIn,then I went to your website and
I see a lot of the stuff thatyou did.
I was kind of sad.
I saw that you were in my areain September last year for a
presentation at New EnglandCollege.
SPEAKER_02 (02:42):
Oh yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (02:43):
I wish I would have gone there because it's not too
far from my humble abode inHolliston, Massachusetts.
So going to City California, Iknow you have one coming up in
California, it's kind of a likea long ride for me, so I can't
really do that one.
SPEAKER_02 (02:57):
But uh yeah, well, it's it's a long, long haul for
me too.
But I was actually just inConnecticut a couple of months
ago.
So I'm gonna have to startposting my upcoming events
because people are moreinterested now.
SPEAKER_00 (03:12):
I and I I'm very interested, and I really, you
know, honestly, the hardest partof my job is I meet great people
here face to face, so to speak,on a computer, but I never get
to meet them face to face.
Part of why I'm doing apresentation at the fraternity
something police in Las Vegas inuh March, so I can actually meet
(03:32):
a couple of people I'veinterviewed and they're like,
Oh, I'll be there, we'll say hi,and all that.
So that's really cool.
But you know, like I said, Iread a lot about your stuff.
I saw some stuff on LinkedIn,but I'm sure my audience may not
know who you are.
So, how about you introduceyourself a little?
SPEAKER_02 (03:47):
Yeah, well, I appreciate the kind words.
So I day to day, my in my normallife am wife and a mom and a dog
mom and just normal stuff.
But I am a speaker, an author,and a coach for first
responders.
And before all that, I was Istarted my law enforcement
(04:07):
career at 19 years old doingundercover online
investigations.
That led me to going to theacademy at 20 and led me into
being a deputy sheriff.
And the bulk of my career therewas on afternoon shift road
patrol.
We were like, we were having funmost most of the time.
(04:28):
And in 2015, I went from officerof the year to a complete
burnout, and at that point wentand became a criminal court
victim advocate.
During that time, I went backand got my master's degree in
criminology and victimology,which is where I started to
understand what trauma was andthat it wasn't exclusive to
(04:49):
victims, it wasn't a dirty word,it wasn't a weakness, it was
something that nearly everyhuman being experiences.
So simultaneously, because I mynervous system wasn't ready to
slow down, I was also goingthrough a 10-month yoga teacher
training and I started tounderstand the physiology of
stress and trauma.
And I had all these like ding,ding, ding, ding alarm bells
(05:12):
going off in my brain.
And I went down every possiblerabbit hole I could find.
And in 2020, I left thatposition for other reasons.
But then in 21, I createdLifeSaver Wellness and I started
coaching people, developingcurriculums and training, and
did a whole lot more researchand certifications and all of
(05:34):
that.
And that morphed into keynotesand lots of different
opportunities.
And I have since authored twobooks, and now I'm here with you
today.
SPEAKER_00 (05:45):
Well, I would love to hear more about those books,
and particularly the otherthing, too, is I will want, I'll
buy one and you can sign it forme because I always like to get
that from my guests.
And you brought up about 14other questions.
Just hearing a 19-year-old beingundercover is brought me a
question.
You doing all these thingsbrought up ADD and ADHD, and how
(06:07):
many first responders have thisproblem in general?
It's not a really problembecause it helps them in their
career, but sometimes it becomesin the way at the long term.
And then you talked abouttrauma, and then what I kill
myself saying to a lot ofpeople, and I had that
conversation this morning withsomeone is like trauma and PTSD
are two different things.
Everyone has trauma.
(06:29):
PTSD is a diagnosis that hasspecific issues.
So when you talk about traumaand we talk about a victim, it
only has weight if you decide ithas weight.
But anyway, I can go on and on,but a lot of stuff that you
talked about.
How do we be but like the firstthing that came to mind is I've
seen firefighters, you know,it's in the family, so they
become firefighters at 18because dad, grandpa, uncle,
(06:53):
whatever did it.
But being 19 years old andundercover, I don't hear that a
whole lot from any like policepeople, so very intrigued as to
how that starts off.
SPEAKER_02 (07:06):
Okay, so I was I was in the criminal justice program
in my undergrad, and I got anopportunity to shadow this
department that was workingunder the umbrella of the
Internet Crimes Against ChildrenTask Force or ICAC task force.
And it was a very small agency,which was a great benefit to
them because they wereundercover and they were
(07:27):
bringing people like anyway.
So I go to shadow them and I amexposed to this world that I had
no idea because I wasn't reallymind you, this was like in 2007.
So first of all, I wasn't reallylike a tech savvy person, and
(07:48):
second, all of this internetstuff was kind of just emerging.
So I was exposed to this and Iwas like, this is heinous.
Like, we've got to do something.
There, these these people arecomplete predators, and they
think they're talking to a14-year-old.
(08:08):
And so if you can remember,Chris Hansen to catch a
predator.
Now, this is real life withoutthe entrapment charges.
So it was, but I was I waschatting with them online and
then a decoy for them.
And the operations were verysuccessful, and it just led me
(08:29):
into this world that I was like,I have to do something, I have
to continue to do something.
And I was like, How do I gethere?
How do I do this for real?
Because I was an auxiliaryofficer at that point.
And they said, Well, you don'tjust jump to being an
investigator or detective.
You have to go through theacademy and be a road cop and do
(08:49):
all this.
And I was like, sign me up likeyesterday.
So I had to wait because likeyou can't actually be a sworn
officer until you're 21.
So I had to wait until I was 20to go to the academy, and then I
still had to wait to becommissioned.
So that's how that went down.
SPEAKER_00 (09:07):
Okay.
Well, you know, and then itbrings up the question of
19-year-old undercover, youknow, the to catch a predator,
so to speak.
So is that where your traumastarted, or did it happen before
that?
Because that's what I findsometimes is that people do that
for a while and they're like,there's a vile people out there,
(09:27):
and it starts like reallystarting to change their view of
the world.
SPEAKER_02 (09:31):
Yeah.
So interestingly, and I'veactually never even said this on
a podcast or anything.
Growing up, my dad was a trapperby trade.
So it was nothing for me to seeanimals being killed all the
time.
I don't know that that was anykind of I didn't register that
(09:52):
as trauma.
I still don't.
SPEAKER_00 (09:54):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (09:54):
But it's not normal as like a seven-year-old to see
animals being killed all thetime.
So that could have contributedto it.
But in my upbringing, Iexperienced a lot of death.
And at 14, girl that I was on asports team with died by
suicide.
At 15, a friend of mine'sfather, who was our soccer
(10:19):
coach, died by suicide.
And at 17, I lost my best friendsince we were four years old in
daycare to suicide.
So there was a lot thathappened.
And then two years later, I'mlike, I'm gonna save the world
and unknowingly go into aprofession where I'm going to
(10:41):
experience a lot of things thatmight are going to be
overwhelming to my brain and mysystem.
And so looking back, it's reallyno wonder why I burned out after
just a few years.
It was actually a culmination ofmy whole life.
So yeah, that definitely lookingback contributed to it, but that
(11:03):
was not the beginning of it forsure.
SPEAKER_00 (11:05):
Well, I think that, you know, we talk about the
accumulation of stuff.
I I explain that sometimestrauma is like putting 10 pounds
of shit in a five-pound bag.
It just starts leaking all overthe place.
And if you don't believe me,I've said this before too.
Go see Metbusters, they triedit, and it works out exactly how
you probably think it workedout.
So at the end of the day, Imean, I think that that's what's
(11:27):
funny is that sometimes peoplego through a lot in their young
age.
I was talking to another policeofficer today, and he was
saying, like, you know, some ofthe shit I went through as a
kid, that's what made me want tobecome a cop.
Because I didn't want people tofollow that.
And ironically, I thinktherapists do that too, but
that's a different story for adifferent day.
But I I do believe that suicideis like those are the starting
(11:48):
of the accumulation of stuffbecause we still there's still a
huge stigma around suicide, andit's hard to talk about it.
And when it happens to someonethat you love and appreciate,
how do you bring it up to otherpeople in order to discuss it?
And I don't know if you wereable to discuss it, or was it
more like, you know, thathappened, move on, or like
again, the secret that no onetalks about?
SPEAKER_02 (12:11):
I was so young, and I guess I wasn't crazy young,
obviously, but I was still ateenager.
And so I I just didn't have thelanguage or the tools to express
what I was experiencing, and thethe people around me didn't know
how to handle it either.
(12:31):
And I don't, I'm not blamingthem by any means.
Um, it it's not something youever want to have to prepare to
deal with, and so it was kind ofjust one of those things where
you just keep going.
The the biggest one inparticular was my my lifelong
best friend.
And when she died, it was thebig or I'm sorry, the end of
(12:55):
May.
And that summer, I know that Iworked two jobs and went on a
family vacation, but I cannotrecall any of that.
I can't recall anything until Iwent back to school for my
senior year that fall.
So it was kind of just put yourhead down and keep going.
(13:17):
And that was that kind it itthat really helped formulate
some of my grit, but it alsodidn't allow me to offload any
anything that I was just goingthrough.
SPEAKER_00 (13:30):
And you know, I when I talk about this too, when
people I know no one is blamingtheir family, no one's blaming
anyone, it's just someone ofthose things that generationally
we didn't talk about.
And to this day, still, I mean,if you ask me, suicide is a big
secret at times too, becausethey they gotta say people died
suddenly, or people died, andsometimes you're like, so when I
(13:52):
hear suddenly, I go, overdose ofsuicide.
And but that's maybe me beingsavvy as to what that means, and
I see that particularly with thefirst responder world, where
suicide is a very dirty word totalk about because you know, we
have every three days there's acompleted suicide in the police
force in in the United Statesalone.
(14:14):
I'm sure across the worldthere's a lot more, and that's
because of the stress and thestuff that first responders face
on a regular basis that theydon't talk about because like
you said, you know, you you hadyour burnout, but sometimes
burnout leads to I'm not goodenough or I don't want to be
from this world again.
And I know that with technologynowadays, first responders face
(14:34):
a shitload of different thingsthan maybe 20, 30 years ago,
first responders did not face.
Can you speak a little bit aboutthose challenges that they face
and how to handle it?
Because to me, having, and I Iuse an example of one of my
clients who talked to me aboutit, when you're doing an arrest
and doing everything right,still having someone's iPhone
(14:55):
pointed at you is a huge pain inthe ass and is traumatic.
And you start overthinking.
Did I say this?
Did I do this?
Did I do that?
And you don't say it out loud,you just say it in your head.
You write your police reportdifferently, but in your head
you say a lot of differentthings.
But that's just a thought.
I just want to know what youthink about this for the
stressors they now face.
SPEAKER_02 (15:14):
Well, so I left full-time law enforcement in
2015.
So a lot of what they're dealingwith now has evolved since then,
but I can see it.
And and I talk, you know, in myclients, we talk about some of
those things and just thepressures of, you know, am I
gonna be the next headline?
(15:35):
And and I did somewhatexperience that.
I had a strange incident where Ialmost shot an 11-year-old.
And in the back of my mind, asI'm squeezing the trigger or
starting to rock back on thetrigger, that was a thought.
Am I gonna be the next headline?
And thank God that situationworked out the for everybody
(15:56):
being safe and everything wasfine.
But but the fact that you evenhave to think about the public
scrutiny in moments of life ordeath situations is really
insane because once you realizehow the brain operates and how
(16:16):
when you're when you get anadrenaline dump or you're in the
middle of a stress response,you're you're operating out of
your brainstem, you're operatingout of that primal caveman
brain.
You don't have access to reasonand logic and critical thinking
in the place where words areborn.
Like you don't have access tothat prefrontal cortex.
(16:38):
Yet, first responders areexpected to navigate a life or
death situation and think aboutall those other things at the
same time.
Read Miranda and make sureyou're getting make sure that
the arrest that you're making isvalid that because you have all
of the elements of the crime,you know, as you're wrestling
with this person, you know.
(17:00):
Right.
And making sure that you're notdoing anything that somebody
else is going to judge you foron Monday morning.
And that's really difficult.
That's a lot of added pressurethat that weighs on you, and it
just it constricts your abilityto tolerate the job and normal
(17:22):
everyday life, really.
SPEAKER_00 (17:24):
Right.
I mean, you just talked aboutfight or flight response, right?
Because that's where we stay inthe primitive brain versus their
our our like cerebral cortex,never mind the prefrontal and
the frontal cortex.
There's a lot of decisions to bemade.
You talked about being 21 to besworn in.
Frankly, I think 25 is when yourbrain stops being like it's
(17:44):
fully developed.
I think sometimes I wonder if 25would be a better age, not only
for that, but for a shitloadmore of other stuff, because we
don't have a lot of judgmentbefore that that's really,
really thought out.
But I also think that what yousaid is also very important.
Am I going to be the nextheadline?
I've talked about this before onmy podcast, and I'll say it
again.
If a therapist fucks up inWashington, you know how much
(18:08):
that affects me here inMassachusetts?
Right, exactly.
Very little for those of you whoare listening to a little or
zero, it doesn't even affect me.
Well, probably you don't want,frankly, we won't even hear
about it.
Frankly, I was on a committeefor a company for a while where
we vetted people and we lookedat these charges and stuff, and
some I'm like, they're stillpracticing after that.
(18:30):
I can't talk about what it was,but I'm like, holy fuck.
But that's what happens withtherapists.
It gets, you know, no one's someif it makes the paper, you're
lucky if it makes the back page.
But when you're a police officerand you fuck up in Arizona,
well, every cop in the UnitedStates of America are fuck-ups.
Not that singular cop inArizona.
(18:53):
And that's a pressure that Ifind is very unrealistic for any
job.
And no one understands that,particularly police, get that
scrutiny.
And if if I don't want totrigger anyone listening to
this, but if you are triggered,we can talk.
Think about the Black LivesMatter protests and how you
know, yeah, there were badthings that happened, and we
(19:15):
agree.
And a lot of the cops I spoke tohave said to me, Yeah, those are
bad things that happened, andthose are not cops we support.
Yet the same cop who is, quote,a nice person, woman or man, got
pissed thrown at them, bottlesthrown at them, batteries thrown
at them, and that's because somecop in Missouri and Florida
fucked up, not the guy in we'llsay Burlington, Vermont.
(19:39):
So I don't know if that's partof what you also see, but that's
certainly a pressure that noother job in the world is like
that.
SPEAKER_02 (19:46):
Yeah.
And and when I left in 2015,that was shortly after Ferguson.
And that that did not contributeto my leaving.
My my departure was because ofmy own internal issues.
But I'd be lying if I didn't saythat certain events, because the
(20:10):
way public sees things thatofficers do certainly affects
that that perspective.
But it goes both ways becausewhen there's an officer that's
attacked, or there's some kindof an ambush or something like
that, now we're going, oh crap,that bullseye that's on my back
(20:30):
now has a neon light on it.
And I feel like I've got a laserpointed in my at my forehead.
So that sends our alerts wayhigher because it so it goes
both ways, right?
And being like already in fightor flight often as you're on
(20:51):
duty is one thing, but thenyou've got people, you've got
officers being attacked andambushed at their homes and
they're being doxxed.
And now you're like, I can't,there's nowhere in this world I
can go and feel safe.
And being able to downshift fromthat fight or flight is being
(21:12):
able to establish a felt senseof safety within your body.
And if you can't do that, you'regoing to burn out, you're going
to experience health issues andmental health issues, and your
relationships are going to fallapart.
All of these things are naturalbyproducts of living that way.
And it's and it's no fault tothem.
(21:33):
It's just, you know, it's anatural byproduct of the
environment, and that's sad tosee.
And it's it's very frustratingto have lived it and to be on
the other side of it now andstill see people in it.
SPEAKER_00 (21:49):
As a therapist who has done this work for a
multitude of years, it isfrustrating to see people go
through that.
And it is frustrating to havethat perception from the public.
And I one day I got so angrywith a civilian, and yes, I'm a
civilian too, don't get mewrong, who told me, you know,
(22:10):
all cops want a blankety blank.
I can't even remember what thecomment was, but something
fucking vulgar.
And I said, Oh, okay.
So if I said that about blackpeople, what would you say?
That's terrible.
That's an over-generalized.
Oh, but you're allowed toovergeneralize about cops.
Is that what you're telling me?
And they did not like that.
They did not like, but that'sthat's unfortunately the other
(22:31):
part of the uh narrative that Ijust can't stand is that you
know, don't discriminate towardspeople.
Someone messes up, that's woman,poor, rich, whatever, they're
not all like that.
Somehow police, though, they'reall like that.
Yet isn't that the same fuckingdiscrimination, if you ask me?
SPEAKER_02 (22:51):
People tend to forget that exceptions prove the
rule, not the other way around.
SPEAKER_00 (22:58):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (22:59):
And when you when you look at the the statistics
of how often these awful,terrible, no good things happen
in in the media or in just inthe world, because when things
like this happen, they make themedia, it makes the news.
When you look at the statisticsof how often those things happen
versus how many interactionspolice have with the public
(23:23):
every single day, it'sminuscule.
It doesn't even hit the chart.
It doesn't even, it's not even,it's basically non-existent.
And people don't realize that.
And I'm not saying it doesn'thappen.
I'm not saying that it doesn'tmatter when it happens.
But what I'm saying is I wish Ihad the numbers in front of me
because it's it's outrageous.
But when you actually do theresearch, it is wild how little
(23:48):
these police brutality issuesactually occur.
And I'm I'm gonna stop myselfthere because I will go
completely down a rabbit holethat I've got to do.
SPEAKER_00 (24:01):
But I will respect the fact that you don't want to.
But for me, it it is aboutrealizing that anyone I've ever
worked with who saw somethingwrong happen with another police
officer, they would tell methat's wrong.
I don't follow this.
This but no one wants to hearthat.
No one wants to be able tolisten to that.
(24:22):
Because if you think about Idon't have the stats either, but
let's say you get four calls anight.
That's I'm being veryconservative.
Four calls in a day, and you dothat four days a week.
I don't know if it's a 5-2 inOhio, but it's a 4-2 around here
with shift work.
You do that what 250 days ayear, give or take.
(24:43):
And you do four interventions,that's a thousand interventions.
And if you have one crappy one,that's one out of one thousand,
which is not what is that zeropoint zero one percent?
So, yeah, that does happen.
We're not saying that it doesnot, but for all the good calls
that occur, where's therecognition?
SPEAKER_02 (25:02):
Yeah, it's it's really wild.
And again, I wish I had thestats in front of me because I
think it's like point zero zerozero zero zero zero one is how
often use of force is is jumpedor escalated beyond what it
warranted.
Right.
But I know you're stopped.
I I gotta stop you or elsedifferent day conversation.
SPEAKER_00 (25:24):
I'd love to hear that more.
Well, maybe we can have thatconversation off air.
But I also think that the otherstat that I like to tell people
is that you know, 95% of anyfirst responders when do their
job, go home safe, and that'stheir goal.
And help the community in themiddle if they can.
In my job, there's 95% oftherapists that are just here to
(25:46):
care and support and lovepeople, and name any profession.
95% of them just want to do whatthey can to help people.
Five percent are assholes.
Guess what?
Same thing with police, samething with any job that you can
possibly imagine.
Because if I've heard peoplelike, oh no, I'm not like that.
So I said, So if I went throughall your work colleagues at this
(26:07):
bank, all of them are stellarhuman beings that are really on
top of everything.
Well, and I'm like, and they'relike, Well, you know, police
take an oat and firefighterstake an oat.
And I'm like, that doesn't meanthey're not human.
That doesn't mean that peopledon't slip between the cracks,
because that happens in the bestof scrutinies.
So we need to be mindful thatit's not like police are any
(26:29):
different than any other humanbeing in this world or any job
for them.
SPEAKER_02 (26:33):
And and usually when they get sniffed out, they're
out.
Like, and there are rareoccasions where some other
department will, you know, notdo their due diligence and
rehire them or whatever, butit's that's pretty rare.
I I've seen plenty of people getkicked to the curb and they
can't find another job anywhereelse, and there's reasons for
(26:54):
that.
SPEAKER_00 (26:54):
So well, I I've seen that too many times, but it's
also being able to have duediligence everywhere you go.
And I respect anyone who knowswhat that means in their
personal life as well as theirwork life.
But anyway, we're we're alreadyapproaching the half hour.
Would you want to stay aroundand uh do part two with me?
Yeah, absolutely.
(27:15):
All right, so we're gonna wrapthis up here and we're gonna
meet on the other side.
And I really thank you for yourtime.
And for those of you who arelistening, come back on next
Friday, or you will be able tolisten to part two.
But here we so thank you.
SPEAKER_01 (27:31):
Please like, subscribe, and follow this
podcast on your favoriteplatform.
A glowing review is alwayshelpful.
And as a reminder, this podcastis for informational,
educational, and entertainmentpurposes only.
If you're struggling with amental health or substance abuse
issue, please reach out to aprofessional counselor for
consultation.
If you are in a mental healthcrisis, call 988 for assistance.
(27:54):
This number is available in theUnited States and Canada.
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