May 27, 2026 • 29 mins
A lot of first responders can talk anyone through a crisis, then go home and quietly self-destruct. That tension sits at the center of my conversation with Joe Smarro, a former cop known for crisis work who’s also honest about the parts of his life that didn’t look “resilient” at all: shame, compulsive numbing, relationship fallout, and the kind of hopelessness that puts a gun belt in the room as a real option. Joe walks me through the moment he finally chose help, not hiding, by walking into the VA and starting a treatment journey that’s still evolving today.
We dig into why stigma in police, fire, EMS, dispatch, and paramedicine keeps people performing at work while collapsing inside. Joe explains how looking in the mirror made him better at humanizing the people he served without turning it into trauma bonding, and why leaders matter when they say, out loud, “I’m going to therapy” instead of pointing to an EAP brochure. We also talk complex PTSD, ACE scores, and how unprocessed childhood trauma can shape adult threat responses, addiction risk, and the stories we live from.
Then we get practical about trauma treatment. We unpack EMDR therapy with a simple “two strings” model that shows why the goal isn’t forgetting the event, it’s stopping the body from reacting like it’s happening right now. Joe also shares his experience with ketamine-assisted therapy, including research, safety, set and setting, at-home sessions, and why integration in the 48 to 72 hour window matters so much. If you care about first responder mental health, trauma recovery, PTSD treatment, and what real healing looks like off the clock, you’ll get a lot from this one.
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Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_00 (00:01):
Welcome to Resilience Development in Action
with Steve Bisson.
This is the podcast dedicated tofirst responder mental health,
helping police, fire, EMS,dispatchers, and paramedics
create better growthenvironments for themselves and
their teams.
Let's get started.
SPEAKER_02 (00:29):
Hey, like magic, we are back.
I think that you know what Ilove about these great
interviews, and again, I'm gonnatry again your name, Joe
Smarrow.
He is here again.
I wanted a quick intro.
We're having a greatconversation, but I want to
shift gears because I think wetalked a lot about the
departments andcompartmentalization,
challenging those thoughts forpolice and mental health,
frankly, and frankly the world,if you ask me, the BS, as you
(00:52):
called it.
And if you don't know what thatis, go back and listen to the
episode before.
We're not telling you.
Sorry, I gotta promote my stufftoo, man.
But one of the things that Iknow happens a lot with
particularly first responders, Ikind of hinted at it the last
episode, is that sometimes youdo have your own challenges with
mental health.
You know, it's not but in mostapartments, it's fairly
stigmatized.
(01:13):
I know there's been an evolutionsince I started in the two like
late 1990s, early 2000s, butthat stigma still frankly
exists.
I know that for you, you know,you you've had some unaddressed
trauma that kind of brought in alittle bit of this stuff.
How you know how did you realizeall that stuff?
How did you bring it up and howdid you deal with it?
SPEAKER_01 (01:34):
Yeah, so I I realized it really quickly when
I got on the mental health unit.
So my first five years on thedepartment, you know, I'm just
I'm on patrol.
I became an absolute mess.
My vice, my drug, if you will,became pornography and women.
And so my first several years onthe department, I was just
(01:54):
absolutely self-loathing,whatever I could do to just hate
myself, live with a ton of shameand regret.
And so making poor choice afterpoor choice, but it never really
bled into my job.
So I was always early.
I was a great cop.
I never got in trouble, I nevergot jammed up.
But then when I went to themental health unit and 100% of
my calls became mental healthrelated, my choices started to
(02:15):
catch up to me.
So, you know, I had multipledivorces, had kids from
different women, paying a lot ofmoney in child support.
And yet I show up every day inthe mental health unit with
great advice.
And, you know, showing up with asmile and telling very sad,
depressed, uh, you know,disconnected, disoriented,
detached humans that are verysick, this great counsel of, you
(02:37):
know, hey, you should talk to aprofessional and maybe look at
medication and get intodifferent treatment and all this
great advice.
And then I'd go home and I wouldjust jam on six to ten beers,
trying to get some sleep,watching hours of pornography,
and looking for my next way tolike numb and avoid.
And it was my second wifeleaving me who was like, Hey,
(02:59):
look, I hate you.
Uh, because you know, I wasunfaithful, I cheated, I got
caught.
And that was the narrative.
That was the not the narrative,that was the fact.
Like it just kept happeningbecause I I was incapable of
loving myself.
And so any girl that would giveme attention, I'm like, this is
awesome.
And it made me feel something.
And then I what it really mademe feel was just more hatred
(03:20):
towards myself because I wasable to live in more shame and
guilt.
So then she she was leaving andshe was like, I'm taking the
kids, I'm moving up to Dallas,which is five hours north.
And I was like, all right, Iremember sitting in my my, I was
in a townhouse at the time, andI was sitting in my home and I
was staring at my gun belt, andI remember vividly, like, okay,
I either need to eat my gun andjust end it because I'm tired of
(03:44):
all these poor choices I'mmaking.
I'm tired, again, victim.
I'm a victim.
I'm tired of it being so easyfor me to to cheat.
I'm tired of getting caught.
I'm tired of me having kids thatI don't get to raise.
I'm so frustrated.
Woe is me.
So I need to end my life, or Ineed to walk into the VA and
tell them, like, I don't knowwhat, but like, I've got all my
(04:04):
limbs.
I'm not burnt.
Yeah, I deployed, but like, Idon't know, something must be
wrong with my brain.
And then thank God, likeluckily, I decided to walk into
the VA.
And so it was about two yearsafter I got in the mental health
unit.
So this was this was in 2011.
And so we're talking 15 yearsago, where I walked into the vet
center with my DD214, saying, Iwas deployed, I meet the
(04:27):
criteria, I need to talk tosomebody because I don't know
what's going on with me.
And that was it.
Like it, that was the beginningof my journey.
And I very quickly realized thatthe more I was willing to look
at my own stuff, right?
The more mirrors I was willingto look into, if you will, the
more I could see myself and mysuffering and all of the people
(04:48):
that I was dealing withprofessionally.
And all it did was unite me.
And again, not in an unsafe way,not in a like, oh God, Joe's a
freaking, you know, woo-woo,like the guy's a hippie out here
loving on people.
But also, yes, like I could findmyself in other people just as I
could find their struggling inmy own life.
And it gave us some commonground, not trauma bonding, but
(05:09):
it in a complex crisissituation, it allowed me to
humanize the interaction and bereally effective at my job.
And then it also allowed me tobe very effective within my own
unit with the other officers,being a champion, not saying,
hey, we have peer support, wehave an EAP, we have a brochure,
you can call this 800 number andhave no idea who's going to
(05:29):
answer.
This is what I'm doing.
I'm leaving work today and I'mgoing to therapy.
Hey, they put me on Lexapro.
I'll let you know how this goes.
Like there was no, I wasn'tembarrassed about getting help
because it felt really good totry to get better.
And then to again, as I wasprocessing it, as I was getting
through it, then I wouldadvocate for it and and help
other people with it.
(05:50):
But as I tell in my own company,when we bring in facilitators,
there's a huge differencebetween speaking from scars and
scabs.
And if it's still a scab, donot, do not share, do not pick
at it trying to help someoneelse.
It wasn't until it becomes ascar when you should be sharing
stuff like that.
And and again, like I'm stillactively my treatment has
(06:11):
evolved from just traditionalcognitive behavioral therapy to
even now, like I'm in EMDR, butwith ketamine, and I'm doing
ketamine sessions right intoEMDR sessions.
I'm doing, you know, IFS, theinternal family systems, which
has been really good for me.
And, you know, diagnosed withPTSD, which now we're learning
(06:32):
is actually complex PTSD, butbecause complex PTSD didn't make
it into the DSM, but they'relike, like, without a doubt,
unequivocally, you have complexPTSD, but the suits that make
the decisions were like, nah,it's basically PTSD.
It's not because you're, andjust for the audience listening,
and I think this is a lot offirst responders that get into
(06:52):
the profession with unprocessedtrauma.
Basically, here's theassessment, and I'm not
diagnosing, but if you'refamiliar with ACEs, the adverse
childhood experiences, if youhave a four or higher ACE score
and you've never been intotreatment and you get into
public safety, there's a reallygood chance that you have
complex PTSD because you're notresponding from this is now
let's say that you have a firstresponder who has a zero ACE
(07:15):
score and they get into atraumatic situation at work.
That event could create PTSD.
If you come from a chaotic,complex, trauma-ridden childhood
and it was on repeat, a lot ofabuse, whatever type, over and
over and over and over, and thendeploy overseas a couple times,
and then you get into policingor EMS or whatever, you probably
(07:37):
have complex PTSD, which is verydifferent, by the way, and also
very different to treat becauseyou're not treating an event,
you're treating a lot ofbuilt-in neuropathways of
narratives and stories that haveled to a lot of poor behavior
and maladaptive coping.
And there is help out there, anduh it's worth it.
SPEAKER_02 (07:54):
Well, I think that you brought up something that
I've you talked about complexBTSD.
I treat symptoms first andforemost.
I don't treat diagnosis, andcomplex BTSD should be a
diagnosis.
Yep.
Learning more about post-why amI blanking on it?
But basically an enrageddisorder, basically, like I I
can't think of the E right now,but it we and they they talk
(08:16):
about how moral injuries comefrom that too.
And when I do the MDR, mostpeople are like, Oh, I came in
because you know, I saw a deadcat on the side road.
That's always my default.
Uh try not to trigger myaudience too much.
Sure.
Usually it goes back tosomething that happened in the
childhood.
This is not in whether you're apolice officer, firefighter,
whatever, it's always comes backto something else, and it's
(08:37):
usually complex BTSD.
Yeah, I've done the audit andI've done the PG PHQ 9 for a
while, but I've done ACES foryears, and most of my law
enforcement people hit overfour.
And we need to heal that inorder because when it does
happen, that's the trigger fromthe past.
And I I I really talk about EMDRa lot with them.
(08:59):
And EMDR is the other part, too,is since I have this platform
and I want you to tell me alittle more about your
experience.
But I tell people, EMDR is notgonna make you forget about it.
This is not the goal.
The goal is not to forget aboutit because you want to learn
from it, but it's to make itmanageable today so that it
doesn't affect you today.
That's what EMDR does.
And I think that that's themisconception, especially from
(09:20):
law enforcement.
Oh, you're gonna make it goaway.
Oh, I didn't know I had my magichat is upstairs.
I gotta go get it first.
Oh, right, that doesn't workthat way.
But you know, tell me a littlebit more about your experience
because I love EMDR.
I've been a practitioner forover 10 years, and it's probably
the most effective treatmentthat I've ever dealt with.
I know there's brain spotting,there's other types, and I'm not
putting those down.
(09:40):
I'm just saying for me.
SPEAKER_01 (09:41):
Yeah.
So I remember when my currenttherapist, it was brilliant
because I like things to be assimple as possible, especially
in the beginning.
I'm very cerebral, heady,intellectual.
I really like to think throughand understand everything, and
it's just been a survivalpattern.
But what she did was she drewtwo stick figures on a
whiteboard, and then she hadlike a red string going from
(10:04):
person on the left to person onthe right, and then another one
going from the person on theright to the person on the left.
And it's basically these two redstrings.
And all she said was the goal ofEMDR is that the one string is
still gonna be there, but whenthat second string, we're trying
to cut that second string sothat, and just as you outlined
right there, Steve, but thismade so much sense to me because
(10:26):
what she said is look, it's notthat the event's gonna go away
or that you're still not evengonna have similar thoughts.
The goal is that those thoughtsno longer activate any
physiological response in you towhere you feel like you have to
behaviorally go into, in mycase, like preservation,
self-preservation.
Uh oh, the world's on fire.
We're not safe.
We need to, you know, if I see,you know, my spouse talking to
(10:49):
someone and I'm like, oh no,abandonment's kicking in.
She's for sure gonna leave me,she's for sure gonna cheat on
me, she's for sure gonna do allthis stuff.
So then I'm like, well, ifthat's gonna happen for sure,
because I'm so convinced it'sreality, well, then I need to go
and make sure I protect myselfand I can protect myself by
stepping out and doing somethingwild.
Then I step out and then, oh,look, you got caught.
(11:11):
Then my spouse leaves and itreinforces the thought, which
was she was never gonna stayanyway because I'm not worthy
and lovable.
That that to me, what EMDR is islike I can witness something,
the thought's still there.
I can realize, like, uh-oh, I'mfeeling afraid or I'm feeling
something bad's gonna happen.
Wait a minute.
I can challenge that thought nowbecause the second string is no
longer gonna come back to me asthe adult.
(11:32):
And by the way, person left,person right is adult and child,
and that's those stringscommunicating.
You're you're dropping into achildlike resource center.
You're visiting the childlibrary, we'll call it, going to
the old card catalog to thenrealize that it's giving you an
old script.
Now you get to like set thatbook down and say, I don't have
to read this one anymore becauseI know that I'm resourced and
(11:54):
I'm safe.
That's what EMDR really is.
It's really effective at.
And it's just, it's incredible.
So I'm I'm blessed that I get tobe in it now.
I'm blessed that I get to be apart of it.
And then ketamine just allowsyou to drop into like the
deepest part of yoursubconscious.
It's brought up like repressedmemories for me.
Uh, I in fact, I'm gonna saythis because it actually made me
a little sad.
But I got a piece of feedbackfrom the talk, the the keynote
(12:18):
that I gave from a therapistsaying that they don't they
don't appreciate that I wasadvocating for ketamine because
as a therapist that believes inlike non-drug-based treatments,
he or she did not believe that Ishould be advocating for
ketamine.
Here's what I'm gonna say tothat.
I'm only sharing my ownexperience and what it's done
for me, and it's been absolutelyincredible.
(12:39):
If you have a problem with itbecause I imagine the problem is
that it's a drug, then that'syour own work to do.
I've seen the effectiveness ofit not only on me, but on other
people as well.
And so, yeah, I'm happy to dealwith the pushback and the flack
from professionals saying youshould not talk about ketamine
because it's a drug, and it'salso prescribed by a
psychiatrist and it's FDAapproved.
(13:01):
And so maybe you have your ownwork to do on that with more
love.
SPEAKER_02 (13:05):
Oh, I I I love you.
You know how much I love thisstuff because for me, there's
three things that I want tomention here, you know, because
I I tell people number one, EMDRteaches you to not circle around
the mountain but go through it,and then it's in the rear view
mirror, it's still there, butit's in the rear view mirror,
and you can use it asexperience.
(13:25):
Because if you burn yourselftouching an oven, I would hope
that that trauma you'd remember.
Because if I learn you to not doit, you'll put on your hand on a
hot oven every fucking time, andI don't want that.
So you gotta learn from that.
That's what EMDR does.
You know, the other part too isyou talked about what works and
ketamine.
I want to get in more in depthabout that, and I'll tell you
(13:46):
after this story.
When I worked at parole, a guywho was on well, slightly 7D
wise, I can't remember, he had abunch of them, drank while he's
on parole.
So they like, Steve, we don'tknow what to do.
We don't want to send him back.
He's got 30 days left.
What can you do?
I'm like, I don't know what I'mgonna do, but okay, let me talk
to him.
So I talked to him and he seesmy little wooden Buddha on my
desk and he goes, Who's that?
(14:07):
I said it's Buddha.
Like he we started talking aboutBuddhism, which is something I
practice.
And he goes, Can I keep him?
I said, Are you gonna staysober?
And he said, Yeah.
I said, Okay, you can keep him.
If you don't stay sober, you oweit back to me.
It's like fair enough.
He stayed sober for 30 days.
I don't know what happened afterthat, I'm not gonna lie.
But the point is that if youever told me that when Buddha
(14:28):
was the treatment plan, yeah, itwas the treatment plan and it
freaking worked.
So I don't even care if youthink it's effective or not, it
worked.
And so that's why when peopletalk about ketamine, uh a couple
weeks ago, I had someone who didshe was uh she worked with the
Department of Justice andDepartment of Defense, and she
was security, and she didayahuasca after she was done
(14:49):
with and ayahuasca changed herlife and it helped her.
To me, if the treatment worksfor you, who am I to judge what
works for you?
And I get really pissy withtherapists who kind of tell take
the moral high ground oneverything, but you'll give a
benzo to a person and say that'sokay, but somehow that's not
giving addiction to people.
So it's the hypocrisy of thewhole thing that bothers me.
(15:11):
Off my high horse, let's talkabout ketamine.
Uh sorry about this, but you youagain, I get you can tell I'm
just an honest guy.
I don't care what works forpeople.
And I one of my clients did do acouple of times ketamine.
He may or not be in lawenforcement, I'll leave it as
vague as I possibly can.
And it really changed how heprocessed information now.
(15:33):
In in addition to treatment, hedidn't just like buy ketamine
off the street and decide he didwith treatment, and then part of
me knowing that helped thetreatment.
What do you think ketamine uhdid for you and how it was
effective?
And if someone said to you,well, I don't think ketamine
works, or it's whatever thattherapist said, I I blanked it
out because it offended me.
(15:54):
So, hey, a therapist offendedme.
Welcome to the club.
But anyway, can you tell me moreabout it and how we can talk to
people about these things?
Because it it really is to me,uh if it works, who am I to
judge?
If someone takes THC and they'reable to sleep at night with some
indica and they're not driving,they're not causing any
problems, just helps them sleep.
Who am I to judge?
(16:16):
I think that that's how Iperceive the treatment.
But how I mean, I don't know ifyou had prejudice around
ketamine or not prior to it, andhow it was for you.
Just a quick break, guys.
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(16:36):
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(16:59):
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(17:24):
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Now, right back to the episode.
SPEAKER_01 (17:29):
So I don't know that I have prejudice.
I had a little fear becauseright before I left that
apartment in 2020, all of ourparamedics got it, and we were
able to use it as an optionaluse of force.
So if we knew we were gonnafight somebody, we'd call the
paramedics out.
And once they were there on thescene, we would basically do the
blue octopus, jump on thisperson, they'd come up and stab
(17:50):
them, and we would see them likejust go into a stupor and knock
out.
And so in my mind, I was like, Idon't know about this, man.
Like, because I would see peoplelike go from raged, right?
So I didn't have the best firstexposure to it, but through my
own podcast, right?
Because we have a podcast aswell.
And I had I had one of thepeople from Mind Bloom on there,
and then I had the owner ofAnywhere.
(18:11):
And when I talked to the ownerof Anywhere, who is a
psychiatrist, who is very welleducated, who is very well
versed, who worked with policedepartments in the U.S., who now
owns this business.
He's in, I don't know, 36 statesin the U.S.
and pointed to the research.
And like this is the thing thatfascinates me about, you know,
therapists that are against anyof this.
It's like, well, what you'rereally saying is that you don't
(18:33):
trust the research, which seemsa little convenient and odd to
me when there is research outthere.
And there's a lot of researchout there.
And so, you know, I I was I wastalking to him about it and I
was like, Yeah, I'm interestedbecause my therapist, my
previous therapist, she retiredlast year.
I was with her like six years.
And she was like, Hey, I reallythink you're ready for either
(18:53):
psychedelics or some next levelthing, because we've done this
for a long time.
So I was like, all right, I'minterested.
And this is when I first learnedabout Ibogain, but Ibogain's is
obviously still illegal, whichby the way, if you've not
watched In Waves and War onNetflix, 10 out of 10 recommend.
Incredible.
They were the one, they actuallywere just at the White House and
(19:14):
Trump signed an executive orderincreasing the research and
funding about Ibogaine becauseit's done a lot to save them.
Now it's not legal here.
My own soapbox on that is youknow, America doesn't benefit on
people being healthy.
There's a lot of money to bemade on people being sick, and
so things that we know areeffective take a long time to
actually get past off soapbox.
(19:34):
When when Dr.
Zand told me about this and waslike, look, start small, like
all a smaller dose of like hegoes, like, do 50 to 100
milligrams, and it's gonna feellike a weighted blanket during a
meditation.
And I was like, that's weird.
That sounds a little woo-woo.
SPEAKER_02 (19:50):
I've never heard that description.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_01 (19:52):
It's unbelievable.
And and he was so spot on.
Now, they also send you an eyemask, a blindfold.
They also send you playlists.
I've got a playlist on love,grow, heal, and transcend.
So there's four playlists.
Very specifically, the the Idon't know, the the music, the
hurts, the way like like thelove playlist has more like
(20:13):
violin, for example.
The transcend has like deeperchords.
So there's there's like musicthat goes with this based on
what you're working on.
So I do breath work before I domy session.
I do meditation, and then setand setting is important because
they just ship it to my house,which by the way is legal.
I don't go to a sterile clinicwhere I'm like on a doctor's bed
(20:33):
in someone else's space.
Like, no, I get to be in thecomfort of my home.
I have a trip sitter who is mywife.
She just has to be in the house.
She's not there watching me dobecause nothing weird is
happening.
It's very safe.
And there's no like, there's nofallout, there's no side effects
after.
But to wrap this up, because Icould talk about it forever, and
I've gone all the way up to 600milligrams, which to me was the
(20:55):
hardest one because it gotreally heavy.
That was one time, and I've doneit probably, I don't know, 25
times at this point.
100% of them minus that one,which I think I still need to do
because there's some dark stuffdown in there I have to go get.
But every other one of them hasbeen pure bliss.
It's been absolute euphoric,utopian.
(21:17):
I'm talking all my ex-wives werein one room.
We were all hanging out with thekids.
We had our own villagesomewhere.
All the in-laws were together,and the only rules were there's
no drugs, there's no alcohol,and there's no sex allowed.
And somehow we then just likeunited and operated, and it was
unbelievable.
I was able to access repressedmemories from childhood that
(21:40):
I've forgotten, things that Ilike have not I've not thought
about in decades, and they werefront and center.
And then what happens is per thescience, is that your your
neural pathways are stillmalleable for 72 hours after the
ketamine.
So you got to do set andsetting.
The point you made, Steve,you're not buying this off the
street and doing it under a treeat the park.
You're getting It prescribed,you're doing an integration
(22:02):
session to really make sureyou're setting.
What do you want to work on?
Do breath work to really groundyourself.
What is the thing you want tothink through in this session?
And then after, so it's it'slike 60 minutes blindfold on,
you're on the journey, and thenit's absolutely gone.
You're a little bit like woozyfor another hour where the the
(22:23):
most dangerous part of doingketamine is falls because people
get up trying to walk andthey're they fall over.
That that is the most dangerouspart of doing ketamine is
falling over.
So then after my hour is up, Isit up and I just kind of
reflect on what happened.
I will journal or write somestuff out, or I'll do a thought
dump and my wife will recordthem.
And then I make my way carefullyout to the recliner.
(22:46):
And for the next hour, I'm justkind of coming to.
And then three hours later, I'mfully operational driving.
I can go play golf.
I can do whatever I want.
I'm not caffeinating myself.
I'm not drinking alcohol, butI'm just in this very nice,
euphoric, the world is anincredible state.
And then within like 48 to 72hours, I take advantage of that
(23:09):
by doing an integration sessionwith a coach, a therapist, or
this last week I just did mysession at night at 7 a.m.
And then at noon, I was at mytherapist office somewhere doing
EMDR.
Unbelievable.
So yeah, it's 10 out of 10recommend for me.
And again, it doesn't mean it'sgoing to work for everybody.
If you try it and you're like, Ihate that, then it didn't work
for you.
There's no shame in that.
(23:30):
It's about trying things to getbetter if you know you need to
get better and wanting to getbetter, doing whatever's
required of you.
SPEAKER_02 (23:35):
You know, the talk about that too.
I explained that all treatmentsare not for everyone.
There's not one diabetesmedication, there's not one
heart or blood pressure orwhatever.
There's several.
Why?
Because they don't work foreveryone.
Yeah.
That's the same thing withketamine.
We recommend it.
That doesn't mean we're saying,oh my God, everyone go do that.
And again, we're not looking totrip balls.
(23:56):
That's what the other part, too,is 100%.
Don't understand that.
And I wanted to joke around.
I'm like, oh, they didn't listento Jimi Hendrix and Janice
Joplin.
Ha ha ha ha.
For those of you who are tooyoung, go look them up.
They're good artists.
But oh, I think that what youjust said is so important
because again, it's acomplimentalization.
I know we talked about in thelast episode.
Oh, ketamine is bad.
(24:16):
Well, how do you know that?
And it's not the ketamine ofunfortunately the people who get
addicted to it and have aproblem, it's a different type
of ketamine.
I you can have benzodiazepinesto help you calm down every six
weeks or when you go on aflight.
That doesn't mean you'readdicted to benzodiazepines.
I I think that you know, I hadsurgery, I had like four or five
(24:37):
grade of addiction, so I hadfour or five opioids just to
help me sleep.
And that doesn't, but do I want60?
Absolutely not.
Not that I don't trust myself,but I don't trust myself.
100%, you know, it's okay for meto say that.
And I think that what is soimportant, and I you know, I
applaud, you know, say what youwill about our president.
He's the one who approvedtelehealth to be paid by
(24:59):
insurance companies, he's theone who's doing the ketamine
stuff, he's increasing theaccess to some of the VAs.
I said, some, I get it.
I said, but it's the truth.
And I think that that's whereI'm telling a lot of people like
you know, sometimes people cando good even if maybe you don't
like them.
And there's a lot of stuff thathe talks about treatment a lot
more than people give him creditfor.
(25:20):
So I want to throw that out.
But enough about our politicsand everything else because I I
will I'll I'll get I'll get somemessage just like you, you know,
you're you're pushing ketamineon kids.
I I'm gonna get right you'repromoting Trump.
That's not what I'm doing, butokay, whatever.
I don't care.
Let's talk about your book alittle bit and anything else you
want to talk about.
But I would love to hear moreabout your book and how people
(25:41):
can get it and stuff like that,because this is all fascinating
stuff, and we only had like anhour total, so I'm sure there's
a lot more to be said.
SPEAKER_01 (25:49):
Yeah, the easiest way is through Amazon, my
website.
So josmarrow.com is a personalwebsite.
My company website issolutionpointplus.com, all
spelled out.
And then if you go on Amazon andjust put Joe Smarrow in the
search bar, both books will popup.
And then same thing on YouTube.
If you go to YouTube and put JoeSmarrow, a ton of interviews pop
up, podcasts pop up, my TEDx ison there, and then Ernie and Joe
(26:14):
Crisis Cops is the EmmyAward-winning documentary, and
that came out in 2019, but it'sit just got renewed on HBO Max
until 2030.
And so if you subscribe to HBO,you can find it on there.
But yeah, I'm honestly like I'vedone enough stuff now in the
space where if you just Googlemy name, all the stuff pops up
(26:34):
from videos to podcasts tobooks, and then my podcast is
called Truly Mental, and you canfind that everywhere you find
your podcast.
But yeah, I I did the podcastreally to meet interesting
people doing cool things, butalso to strategically build out
a national Rolodex.
And that's how I found myAcademy prescriber, and that's
how I found a lot of people thatI refer first responders to is
(26:57):
because my podcast hasintroduced me to some very
interesting people around thecountry.
So yeah, not easy to not easy tonot find.
Uh, it's a rather simpler way tosay that is I'm very easy to
find.
So just Google Joe Smorrow andit all pops up.
But Amazon, YouTube, it's allthere.
SPEAKER_02 (27:14):
And my audience knows how I work.
Go see a stead X talk.
You will it it's short comparedto reading a book for some
people who don't want to read abook.
Yeah, you will probably want toget the book anyway afterwards.
That is the truth.
That's really how I feel, andpeople know that.
And I hope I put all those showthose stuff in the show notes
for both episodes so people canaddress it.
(27:35):
And if you ever need a guess, Idon't think I'm that
interesting, but nonetheless, Ican come on to your podcast.
But you know, Joe, having metyou and now met you again, I
hope you come back at somepoint, number one, but more
importantly, I hope we stay intouch.
I do this podcast selfishly tomeet interesting people too, so
we got that in common.
(27:56):
But more importantly, if ever Iget a call from someone who
goes, Hey, do you know anyone inSan Antonio that can help out?
I don't know anyone, but I knowsomeone who's gonna help me find
someone.
And that's my other motivation.
And if someone in San Antonioneeds help, that's great.
But I also know that listeningto Idaho about Joe, they'll know
that Joe talked about stuff andthey may be looking it up
because there's a lot of stuffthat you talked about is
(28:18):
national.
So thank you for your time.
I'm right there with you.
I think that there's a lot ofsimilarities in what we believe
in, and I really appreciate yourtime.
SPEAKER_01 (28:25):
Thank you, brother.
I appreciate you.
It's been fun and big love toall your listeners.
And I look forward to connectingwith and hearing from anybody.
The unarmed book is on audio, 12Laws is not, but it is me
reading it.
So if you'd like to listen toyour books, you can find that on
Amazon as well.
But Steve, thank you so much foryour for your time today and for
letting me be a guest on yourincredible podcast.
I'm grateful.
(28:46):
Thank you.
SPEAKER_02 (28:46):
And I'm very humbled to have you.
And for my my audience, I thankyou for your time and come back
for the next episode.
SPEAKER_00 (28:54):
Please like, subscribe, and follow this
podcast on your favoriteplatform.
A glowing review is alwayshelpful.
And as a reminder, this podcastis for informational,
educational, and entertainmentpurposes only.
If you're struggling with amental health or substance abuse
issue, please reach out to aprofessional counselor for
consultation.
If you are in a mental healthcrisis, call 988 for assistance.
(29:18):
This number is available in theUnited States and Canada.
Welcome to Resilience Development in Action
with Steve Bisson.
This is the podcast dedicated tofirst responder mental health,
helping police, fire, EMS,dispatchers, and paramedics
create better growthenvironments for themselves and
their teams.
Let's get started.
SPEAKER_02 (00:29):
Hey, like magic, we are back.
I think that you know what Ilove about these great
interviews, and again, I'm gonnatry again your name, Joe
Smarrow.
He is here again.
I wanted a quick intro.
We're having a greatconversation, but I want to
shift gears because I think wetalked a lot about the
departments andcompartmentalization,
challenging those thoughts forpolice and mental health,
frankly, and frankly the world,if you ask me, the BS, as you
(00:52):
called it.
And if you don't know what thatis, go back and listen to the
episode before.
We're not telling you.
Sorry, I gotta promote my stufftoo, man.
But one of the things that Iknow happens a lot with
particularly first responders, Ikind of hinted at it the last
episode, is that sometimes youdo have your own challenges with
mental health.
You know, it's not but in mostapartments, it's fairly
stigmatized.
(01:13):
I know there's been an evolutionsince I started in the two like
late 1990s, early 2000s, butthat stigma still frankly
exists.
I know that for you, you know,you you've had some unaddressed
trauma that kind of brought in alittle bit of this stuff.
How you know how did you realizeall that stuff?
How did you bring it up and howdid you deal with it?
SPEAKER_01 (01:34):
Yeah, so I I realized it really quickly when
I got on the mental health unit.
So my first five years on thedepartment, you know, I'm just
I'm on patrol.
I became an absolute mess.
My vice, my drug, if you will,became pornography and women.
And so my first several years onthe department, I was just
(01:54):
absolutely self-loathing,whatever I could do to just hate
myself, live with a ton of shameand regret.
And so making poor choice afterpoor choice, but it never really
bled into my job.
So I was always early.
I was a great cop.
I never got in trouble, I nevergot jammed up.
But then when I went to themental health unit and 100% of
my calls became mental healthrelated, my choices started to
(02:15):
catch up to me.
So, you know, I had multipledivorces, had kids from
different women, paying a lot ofmoney in child support.
And yet I show up every day inthe mental health unit with
great advice.
And, you know, showing up with asmile and telling very sad,
depressed, uh, you know,disconnected, disoriented,
detached humans that are verysick, this great counsel of, you
(02:37):
know, hey, you should talk to aprofessional and maybe look at
medication and get intodifferent treatment and all this
great advice.
And then I'd go home and I wouldjust jam on six to ten beers,
trying to get some sleep,watching hours of pornography,
and looking for my next way tolike numb and avoid.
And it was my second wifeleaving me who was like, Hey,
(02:59):
look, I hate you.
Uh, because you know, I wasunfaithful, I cheated, I got
caught.
And that was the narrative.
That was the not the narrative,that was the fact.
Like it just kept happeningbecause I I was incapable of
loving myself.
And so any girl that would giveme attention, I'm like, this is
awesome.
And it made me feel something.
And then I what it really mademe feel was just more hatred
(03:20):
towards myself because I wasable to live in more shame and
guilt.
So then she she was leaving andshe was like, I'm taking the
kids, I'm moving up to Dallas,which is five hours north.
And I was like, all right, Iremember sitting in my my, I was
in a townhouse at the time, andI was sitting in my home and I
was staring at my gun belt, andI remember vividly, like, okay,
I either need to eat my gun andjust end it because I'm tired of
(03:44):
all these poor choices I'mmaking.
I'm tired, again, victim.
I'm a victim.
I'm tired of it being so easyfor me to to cheat.
I'm tired of getting caught.
I'm tired of me having kids thatI don't get to raise.
I'm so frustrated.
Woe is me.
So I need to end my life, or Ineed to walk into the VA and
tell them, like, I don't knowwhat, but like, I've got all my
(04:04):
limbs.
I'm not burnt.
Yeah, I deployed, but like, Idon't know, something must be
wrong with my brain.
And then thank God, likeluckily, I decided to walk into
the VA.
And so it was about two yearsafter I got in the mental health
unit.
So this was this was in 2011.
And so we're talking 15 yearsago, where I walked into the vet
center with my DD214, saying, Iwas deployed, I meet the
(04:27):
criteria, I need to talk tosomebody because I don't know
what's going on with me.
And that was it.
Like it, that was the beginningof my journey.
And I very quickly realized thatthe more I was willing to look
at my own stuff, right?
The more mirrors I was willingto look into, if you will, the
more I could see myself and mysuffering and all of the people
(04:48):
that I was dealing withprofessionally.
And all it did was unite me.
And again, not in an unsafe way,not in a like, oh God, Joe's a
freaking, you know, woo-woo,like the guy's a hippie out here
loving on people.
But also, yes, like I could findmyself in other people just as I
could find their struggling inmy own life.
And it gave us some commonground, not trauma bonding, but
(05:09):
it in a complex crisissituation, it allowed me to
humanize the interaction and bereally effective at my job.
And then it also allowed me tobe very effective within my own
unit with the other officers,being a champion, not saying,
hey, we have peer support, wehave an EAP, we have a brochure,
you can call this 800 number andhave no idea who's going to
(05:29):
answer.
This is what I'm doing.
I'm leaving work today and I'mgoing to therapy.
Hey, they put me on Lexapro.
I'll let you know how this goes.
Like there was no, I wasn'tembarrassed about getting help
because it felt really good totry to get better.
And then to again, as I wasprocessing it, as I was getting
through it, then I wouldadvocate for it and and help
other people with it.
(05:50):
But as I tell in my own company,when we bring in facilitators,
there's a huge differencebetween speaking from scars and
scabs.
And if it's still a scab, donot, do not share, do not pick
at it trying to help someoneelse.
It wasn't until it becomes ascar when you should be sharing
stuff like that.
And and again, like I'm stillactively my treatment has
(06:11):
evolved from just traditionalcognitive behavioral therapy to
even now, like I'm in EMDR, butwith ketamine, and I'm doing
ketamine sessions right intoEMDR sessions.
I'm doing, you know, IFS, theinternal family systems, which
has been really good for me.
And, you know, diagnosed withPTSD, which now we're learning
(06:32):
is actually complex PTSD, butbecause complex PTSD didn't make
it into the DSM, but they'relike, like, without a doubt,
unequivocally, you have complexPTSD, but the suits that make
the decisions were like, nah,it's basically PTSD.
It's not because you're, andjust for the audience listening,
and I think this is a lot offirst responders that get into
(06:52):
the profession with unprocessedtrauma.
Basically, here's theassessment, and I'm not
diagnosing, but if you'refamiliar with ACEs, the adverse
childhood experiences, if youhave a four or higher ACE score
and you've never been intotreatment and you get into
public safety, there's a reallygood chance that you have
complex PTSD because you're notresponding from this is now
let's say that you have a firstresponder who has a zero ACE
(07:15):
score and they get into atraumatic situation at work.
That event could create PTSD.
If you come from a chaotic,complex, trauma-ridden childhood
and it was on repeat, a lot ofabuse, whatever type, over and
over and over and over, and thendeploy overseas a couple times,
and then you get into policingor EMS or whatever, you probably
(07:37):
have complex PTSD, which is verydifferent, by the way, and also
very different to treat becauseyou're not treating an event,
you're treating a lot ofbuilt-in neuropathways of
narratives and stories that haveled to a lot of poor behavior
and maladaptive coping.
And there is help out there, anduh it's worth it.
SPEAKER_02 (07:54):
Well, I think that you brought up something that
I've you talked about complexBTSD.
I treat symptoms first andforemost.
I don't treat diagnosis, andcomplex BTSD should be a
diagnosis.
Yep.
Learning more about post-why amI blanking on it?
But basically an enrageddisorder, basically, like I I
can't think of the E right now,but it we and they they talk
(08:16):
about how moral injuries comefrom that too.
And when I do the MDR, mostpeople are like, Oh, I came in
because you know, I saw a deadcat on the side road.
That's always my default.
Uh try not to trigger myaudience too much.
Sure.
Usually it goes back tosomething that happened in the
childhood.
This is not in whether you're apolice officer, firefighter,
whatever, it's always comes backto something else, and it's
(08:37):
usually complex BTSD.
Yeah, I've done the audit andI've done the PG PHQ 9 for a
while, but I've done ACES foryears, and most of my law
enforcement people hit overfour.
And we need to heal that inorder because when it does
happen, that's the trigger fromthe past.
And I I I really talk about EMDRa lot with them.
(08:59):
And EMDR is the other part, too,is since I have this platform
and I want you to tell me alittle more about your
experience.
But I tell people, EMDR is notgonna make you forget about it.
This is not the goal.
The goal is not to forget aboutit because you want to learn
from it, but it's to make itmanageable today so that it
doesn't affect you today.
That's what EMDR does.
And I think that that's themisconception, especially from
(09:20):
law enforcement.
Oh, you're gonna make it goaway.
Oh, I didn't know I had my magichat is upstairs.
I gotta go get it first.
Oh, right, that doesn't workthat way.
But you know, tell me a littlebit more about your experience
because I love EMDR.
I've been a practitioner forover 10 years, and it's probably
the most effective treatmentthat I've ever dealt with.
I know there's brain spotting,there's other types, and I'm not
putting those down.
(09:40):
I'm just saying for me.
SPEAKER_01 (09:41):
Yeah.
So I remember when my currenttherapist, it was brilliant
because I like things to be assimple as possible, especially
in the beginning.
I'm very cerebral, heady,intellectual.
I really like to think throughand understand everything, and
it's just been a survivalpattern.
But what she did was she drewtwo stick figures on a
whiteboard, and then she hadlike a red string going from
(10:04):
person on the left to person onthe right, and then another one
going from the person on theright to the person on the left.
And it's basically these two redstrings.
And all she said was the goal ofEMDR is that the one string is
still gonna be there, but whenthat second string, we're trying
to cut that second string sothat, and just as you outlined
right there, Steve, but thismade so much sense to me because
(10:26):
what she said is look, it's notthat the event's gonna go away
or that you're still not evengonna have similar thoughts.
The goal is that those thoughtsno longer activate any
physiological response in you towhere you feel like you have to
behaviorally go into, in mycase, like preservation,
self-preservation.
Uh oh, the world's on fire.
We're not safe.
We need to, you know, if I see,you know, my spouse talking to
(10:49):
someone and I'm like, oh no,abandonment's kicking in.
She's for sure gonna leave me,she's for sure gonna cheat on
me, she's for sure gonna do allthis stuff.
So then I'm like, well, ifthat's gonna happen for sure,
because I'm so convinced it'sreality, well, then I need to go
and make sure I protect myselfand I can protect myself by
stepping out and doing somethingwild.
Then I step out and then, oh,look, you got caught.
(11:11):
Then my spouse leaves and itreinforces the thought, which
was she was never gonna stayanyway because I'm not worthy
and lovable.
That that to me, what EMDR is islike I can witness something,
the thought's still there.
I can realize, like, uh-oh, I'mfeeling afraid or I'm feeling
something bad's gonna happen.
Wait a minute.
I can challenge that thought nowbecause the second string is no
longer gonna come back to me asthe adult.
(11:32):
And by the way, person left,person right is adult and child,
and that's those stringscommunicating.
You're you're dropping into achildlike resource center.
You're visiting the childlibrary, we'll call it, going to
the old card catalog to thenrealize that it's giving you an
old script.
Now you get to like set thatbook down and say, I don't have
to read this one anymore becauseI know that I'm resourced and
(11:54):
I'm safe.
That's what EMDR really is.
It's really effective at.
And it's just, it's incredible.
So I'm I'm blessed that I get tobe in it now.
I'm blessed that I get to be apart of it.
And then ketamine just allowsyou to drop into like the
deepest part of yoursubconscious.
It's brought up like repressedmemories for me.
Uh, I in fact, I'm gonna saythis because it actually made me
a little sad.
But I got a piece of feedbackfrom the talk, the the keynote
(12:18):
that I gave from a therapistsaying that they don't they
don't appreciate that I wasadvocating for ketamine because
as a therapist that believes inlike non-drug-based treatments,
he or she did not believe that Ishould be advocating for
ketamine.
Here's what I'm gonna say tothat.
I'm only sharing my ownexperience and what it's done
for me, and it's been absolutelyincredible.
(12:39):
If you have a problem with itbecause I imagine the problem is
that it's a drug, then that'syour own work to do.
I've seen the effectiveness ofit not only on me, but on other
people as well.
And so, yeah, I'm happy to dealwith the pushback and the flack
from professionals saying youshould not talk about ketamine
because it's a drug, and it'salso prescribed by a
psychiatrist and it's FDAapproved.
(13:01):
And so maybe you have your ownwork to do on that with more
love.
SPEAKER_02 (13:05):
Oh, I I I love you.
You know how much I love thisstuff because for me, there's
three things that I want tomention here, you know, because
I I tell people number one, EMDRteaches you to not circle around
the mountain but go through it,and then it's in the rear view
mirror, it's still there, butit's in the rear view mirror,
and you can use it asexperience.
(13:25):
Because if you burn yourselftouching an oven, I would hope
that that trauma you'd remember.
Because if I learn you to not doit, you'll put on your hand on a
hot oven every fucking time, andI don't want that.
So you gotta learn from that.
That's what EMDR does.
You know, the other part too isyou talked about what works and
ketamine.
I want to get in more in depthabout that, and I'll tell you
(13:46):
after this story.
When I worked at parole, a guywho was on well, slightly 7D
wise, I can't remember, he had abunch of them, drank while he's
on parole.
So they like, Steve, we don'tknow what to do.
We don't want to send him back.
He's got 30 days left.
What can you do?
I'm like, I don't know what I'mgonna do, but okay, let me talk
to him.
So I talked to him and he seesmy little wooden Buddha on my
desk and he goes, Who's that?
(14:07):
I said it's Buddha.
Like he we started talking aboutBuddhism, which is something I
practice.
And he goes, Can I keep him?
I said, Are you gonna staysober?
And he said, Yeah.
I said, Okay, you can keep him.
If you don't stay sober, you oweit back to me.
It's like fair enough.
He stayed sober for 30 days.
I don't know what happened afterthat, I'm not gonna lie.
But the point is that if youever told me that when Buddha
(14:28):
was the treatment plan, yeah, itwas the treatment plan and it
freaking worked.
So I don't even care if youthink it's effective or not, it
worked.
And so that's why when peopletalk about ketamine, uh a couple
weeks ago, I had someone who didshe was uh she worked with the
Department of Justice andDepartment of Defense, and she
was security, and she didayahuasca after she was done
(14:49):
with and ayahuasca changed herlife and it helped her.
To me, if the treatment worksfor you, who am I to judge what
works for you?
And I get really pissy withtherapists who kind of tell take
the moral high ground oneverything, but you'll give a
benzo to a person and say that'sokay, but somehow that's not
giving addiction to people.
So it's the hypocrisy of thewhole thing that bothers me.
(15:11):
Off my high horse, let's talkabout ketamine.
Uh sorry about this, but you youagain, I get you can tell I'm
just an honest guy.
I don't care what works forpeople.
And I one of my clients did do acouple of times ketamine.
He may or not be in lawenforcement, I'll leave it as
vague as I possibly can.
And it really changed how heprocessed information now.
(15:33):
In in addition to treatment, hedidn't just like buy ketamine
off the street and decide he didwith treatment, and then part of
me knowing that helped thetreatment.
What do you think ketamine uhdid for you and how it was
effective?
And if someone said to you,well, I don't think ketamine
works, or it's whatever thattherapist said, I I blanked it
out because it offended me.
(15:54):
So, hey, a therapist offendedme.
Welcome to the club.
But anyway, can you tell me moreabout it and how we can talk to
people about these things?
Because it it really is to me,uh if it works, who am I to
judge?
If someone takes THC and they'reable to sleep at night with some
indica and they're not driving,they're not causing any
problems, just helps them sleep.
Who am I to judge?
(16:16):
I think that that's how Iperceive the treatment.
But how I mean, I don't know ifyou had prejudice around
ketamine or not prior to it, andhow it was for you.
Just a quick break, guys.
I'm gonna talk about a newproduct that I really like.
I actually bought one of theirhoodies, it was amazing, and I
really enjoyed wearing it.
(16:36):
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Deemed Fit is a firstresponder-owned activewear and a
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And one thing that I genuinelylike about them is that they
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I actually gave a few people Iknow who work with first
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They do a lot of initiatives andcollections that are based on
(16:59):
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(17:24):
off at checkout to save.
Now, right back to the episode.
SPEAKER_01 (17:29):
So I don't know that I have prejudice.
I had a little fear becauseright before I left that
apartment in 2020, all of ourparamedics got it, and we were
able to use it as an optionaluse of force.
So if we knew we were gonnafight somebody, we'd call the
paramedics out.
And once they were there on thescene, we would basically do the
blue octopus, jump on thisperson, they'd come up and stab
(17:50):
them, and we would see them likejust go into a stupor and knock
out.
And so in my mind, I was like, Idon't know about this, man.
Like, because I would see peoplelike go from raged, right?
So I didn't have the best firstexposure to it, but through my
own podcast, right?
Because we have a podcast aswell.
And I had I had one of thepeople from Mind Bloom on there,
and then I had the owner ofAnywhere.
(18:11):
And when I talked to the ownerof Anywhere, who is a
psychiatrist, who is very welleducated, who is very well
versed, who worked with policedepartments in the U.S., who now
owns this business.
He's in, I don't know, 36 statesin the U.S.
and pointed to the research.
And like this is the thing thatfascinates me about, you know,
therapists that are against anyof this.
It's like, well, what you'rereally saying is that you don't
(18:33):
trust the research, which seemsa little convenient and odd to
me when there is research outthere.
And there's a lot of researchout there.
And so, you know, I I was I wastalking to him about it and I
was like, Yeah, I'm interestedbecause my therapist, my
previous therapist, she retiredlast year.
I was with her like six years.
And she was like, Hey, I reallythink you're ready for either
(18:53):
psychedelics or some next levelthing, because we've done this
for a long time.
So I was like, all right, I'minterested.
And this is when I first learnedabout Ibogain, but Ibogain's is
obviously still illegal, whichby the way, if you've not
watched In Waves and War onNetflix, 10 out of 10 recommend.
Incredible.
They were the one, they actuallywere just at the White House and
(19:14):
Trump signed an executive orderincreasing the research and
funding about Ibogaine becauseit's done a lot to save them.
Now it's not legal here.
My own soapbox on that is youknow, America doesn't benefit on
people being healthy.
There's a lot of money to bemade on people being sick, and
so things that we know areeffective take a long time to
actually get past off soapbox.
(19:34):
When when Dr.
Zand told me about this and waslike, look, start small, like
all a smaller dose of like hegoes, like, do 50 to 100
milligrams, and it's gonna feellike a weighted blanket during a
meditation.
And I was like, that's weird.
That sounds a little woo-woo.
SPEAKER_02 (19:50):
I've never heard that description.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_01 (19:52):
It's unbelievable.
And and he was so spot on.
Now, they also send you an eyemask, a blindfold.
They also send you playlists.
I've got a playlist on love,grow, heal, and transcend.
So there's four playlists.
Very specifically, the the Idon't know, the the music, the
hurts, the way like like thelove playlist has more like
(20:13):
violin, for example.
The transcend has like deeperchords.
So there's there's like musicthat goes with this based on
what you're working on.
So I do breath work before I domy session.
I do meditation, and then setand setting is important because
they just ship it to my house,which by the way is legal.
I don't go to a sterile clinicwhere I'm like on a doctor's bed
(20:33):
in someone else's space.
Like, no, I get to be in thecomfort of my home.
I have a trip sitter who is mywife.
She just has to be in the house.
She's not there watching me dobecause nothing weird is
happening.
It's very safe.
And there's no like, there's nofallout, there's no side effects
after.
But to wrap this up, because Icould talk about it forever, and
I've gone all the way up to 600milligrams, which to me was the
(20:55):
hardest one because it gotreally heavy.
That was one time, and I've doneit probably, I don't know, 25
times at this point.
100% of them minus that one,which I think I still need to do
because there's some dark stuffdown in there I have to go get.
But every other one of them hasbeen pure bliss.
It's been absolute euphoric,utopian.
(21:17):
I'm talking all my ex-wives werein one room.
We were all hanging out with thekids.
We had our own villagesomewhere.
All the in-laws were together,and the only rules were there's
no drugs, there's no alcohol,and there's no sex allowed.
And somehow we then just likeunited and operated, and it was
unbelievable.
I was able to access repressedmemories from childhood that
(21:40):
I've forgotten, things that Ilike have not I've not thought
about in decades, and they werefront and center.
And then what happens is per thescience, is that your your
neural pathways are stillmalleable for 72 hours after the
ketamine.
So you got to do set andsetting.
The point you made, Steve,you're not buying this off the
street and doing it under a treeat the park.
You're getting It prescribed,you're doing an integration
(22:02):
session to really make sureyou're setting.
What do you want to work on?
Do breath work to really groundyourself.
What is the thing you want tothink through in this session?
And then after, so it's it'slike 60 minutes blindfold on,
you're on the journey, and thenit's absolutely gone.
You're a little bit like woozyfor another hour where the the
(22:23):
most dangerous part of doingketamine is falls because people
get up trying to walk andthey're they fall over.
That that is the most dangerouspart of doing ketamine is
falling over.
So then after my hour is up, Isit up and I just kind of
reflect on what happened.
I will journal or write somestuff out, or I'll do a thought
dump and my wife will recordthem.
And then I make my way carefullyout to the recliner.
(22:46):
And for the next hour, I'm justkind of coming to.
And then three hours later, I'mfully operational driving.
I can go play golf.
I can do whatever I want.
I'm not caffeinating myself.
I'm not drinking alcohol, butI'm just in this very nice,
euphoric, the world is anincredible state.
And then within like 48 to 72hours, I take advantage of that
(23:09):
by doing an integration sessionwith a coach, a therapist, or
this last week I just did mysession at night at 7 a.m.
And then at noon, I was at mytherapist office somewhere doing
EMDR.
Unbelievable.
So yeah, it's 10 out of 10recommend for me.
And again, it doesn't mean it'sgoing to work for everybody.
If you try it and you're like, Ihate that, then it didn't work
for you.
There's no shame in that.
(23:30):
It's about trying things to getbetter if you know you need to
get better and wanting to getbetter, doing whatever's
required of you.
SPEAKER_02 (23:35):
You know, the talk about that too.
I explained that all treatmentsare not for everyone.
There's not one diabetesmedication, there's not one
heart or blood pressure orwhatever.
There's several.
Why?
Because they don't work foreveryone.
Yeah.
That's the same thing withketamine.
We recommend it.
That doesn't mean we're saying,oh my God, everyone go do that.
And again, we're not looking totrip balls.
(23:56):
That's what the other part, too,is 100%.
Don't understand that.
And I wanted to joke around.
I'm like, oh, they didn't listento Jimi Hendrix and Janice
Joplin.
Ha ha ha ha.
For those of you who are tooyoung, go look them up.
They're good artists.
But oh, I think that what youjust said is so important
because again, it's acomplimentalization.
I know we talked about in thelast episode.
Oh, ketamine is bad.
(24:16):
Well, how do you know that?
And it's not the ketamine ofunfortunately the people who get
addicted to it and have aproblem, it's a different type
of ketamine.
I you can have benzodiazepinesto help you calm down every six
weeks or when you go on aflight.
That doesn't mean you'readdicted to benzodiazepines.
I I think that you know, I hadsurgery, I had like four or five
(24:37):
grade of addiction, so I hadfour or five opioids just to
help me sleep.
And that doesn't, but do I want60?
Absolutely not.
Not that I don't trust myself,but I don't trust myself.
100%, you know, it's okay for meto say that.
And I think that what is soimportant, and I you know, I
applaud, you know, say what youwill about our president.
He's the one who approvedtelehealth to be paid by
(24:59):
insurance companies, he's theone who's doing the ketamine
stuff, he's increasing theaccess to some of the VAs.
I said, some, I get it.
I said, but it's the truth.
And I think that that's whereI'm telling a lot of people like
you know, sometimes people cando good even if maybe you don't
like them.
And there's a lot of stuff thathe talks about treatment a lot
more than people give him creditfor.
(25:20):
So I want to throw that out.
But enough about our politicsand everything else because I I
will I'll I'll get I'll get somemessage just like you, you know,
you're you're pushing ketamineon kids.
I I'm gonna get right you'repromoting Trump.
That's not what I'm doing, butokay, whatever.
I don't care.
Let's talk about your book alittle bit and anything else you
want to talk about.
But I would love to hear moreabout your book and how people
(25:41):
can get it and stuff like that,because this is all fascinating
stuff, and we only had like anhour total, so I'm sure there's
a lot more to be said.
SPEAKER_01 (25:49):
Yeah, the easiest way is through Amazon, my
website.
So josmarrow.com is a personalwebsite.
My company website issolutionpointplus.com, all
spelled out.
And then if you go on Amazon andjust put Joe Smarrow in the
search bar, both books will popup.
And then same thing on YouTube.
If you go to YouTube and put JoeSmarrow, a ton of interviews pop
up, podcasts pop up, my TEDx ison there, and then Ernie and Joe
(26:14):
Crisis Cops is the EmmyAward-winning documentary, and
that came out in 2019, but it'sit just got renewed on HBO Max
until 2030.
And so if you subscribe to HBO,you can find it on there.
But yeah, I'm honestly like I'vedone enough stuff now in the
space where if you just Googlemy name, all the stuff pops up
(26:34):
from videos to podcasts tobooks, and then my podcast is
called Truly Mental, and you canfind that everywhere you find
your podcast.
But yeah, I I did the podcastreally to meet interesting
people doing cool things, butalso to strategically build out
a national Rolodex.
And that's how I found myAcademy prescriber, and that's
how I found a lot of people thatI refer first responders to is
(26:57):
because my podcast hasintroduced me to some very
interesting people around thecountry.
So yeah, not easy to not easy tonot find.
Uh, it's a rather simpler way tosay that is I'm very easy to
find.
So just Google Joe Smorrow andit all pops up.
But Amazon, YouTube, it's allthere.
SPEAKER_02 (27:14):
And my audience knows how I work.
Go see a stead X talk.
You will it it's short comparedto reading a book for some
people who don't want to read abook.
Yeah, you will probably want toget the book anyway afterwards.
That is the truth.
That's really how I feel, andpeople know that.
And I hope I put all those showthose stuff in the show notes
for both episodes so people canaddress it.
(27:35):
And if you ever need a guess, Idon't think I'm that
interesting, but nonetheless, Ican come on to your podcast.
But you know, Joe, having metyou and now met you again, I
hope you come back at somepoint, number one, but more
importantly, I hope we stay intouch.
I do this podcast selfishly tomeet interesting people too, so
we got that in common.
(27:56):
But more importantly, if ever Iget a call from someone who
goes, Hey, do you know anyone inSan Antonio that can help out?
I don't know anyone, but I knowsomeone who's gonna help me find
someone.
And that's my other motivation.
And if someone in San Antonioneeds help, that's great.
But I also know that listeningto Idaho about Joe, they'll know
that Joe talked about stuff andthey may be looking it up
because there's a lot of stuffthat you talked about is
(28:18):
national.
So thank you for your time.
I'm right there with you.
I think that there's a lot ofsimilarities in what we believe
in, and I really appreciate yourtime.
SPEAKER_01 (28:25):
Thank you, brother.
I appreciate you.
It's been fun and big love toall your listeners.
And I look forward to connectingwith and hearing from anybody.
The unarmed book is on audio, 12Laws is not, but it is me
reading it.
So if you'd like to listen toyour books, you can find that on
Amazon as well.
But Steve, thank you so much foryour for your time today and for
letting me be a guest on yourincredible podcast.
I'm grateful.
(28:46):
Thank you.
SPEAKER_02 (28:46):
And I'm very humbled to have you.
And for my my audience, I thankyou for your time and come back
for the next episode.
SPEAKER_00 (28:54):
Please like, subscribe, and follow this
podcast on your favoriteplatform.
A glowing review is alwayshelpful.
And as a reminder, this podcastis for informational,
educational, and entertainmentpurposes only.
If you're struggling with amental health or substance abuse
issue, please reach out to aprofessional counselor for
consultation.
If you are in a mental healthcrisis, call 988 for assistance.
(29:18):
This number is available in theUnited States and Canada.
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