How A Fire Chief-Turned-Therapist Is Changing First Responder Mental Health

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Strength without silence. That’s the thread running through our conversation with Jeff Dill, a former battalion chief turned licensed counselor and the founder of the Firefighter Behavioral Health Alliance. Jeff has spent years validating firefighter and EMS suicide data, building workshops from real-world stories, and leading behavioral health efforts for Las Vegas Fire and Rescue. He brings hard-won clarity on what actually helps: simple language, daily habits, and policies that protect people when the job wears them thin.

We break down the internal size up, a practical check-in that asks, “Why am I acting this way? Why am I feeling this way?” It helps catch irritability, isolation, and sleep loss before they morph into bigger risks. Jeff draws a vital line between PTSD and moral injury—showing how betrayal, guilt, and shame often sit beneath the surface while treatment chases fear and trauma. Forgiveness becomes a survival skill, not a pass for bad behavior, and we talk about how to practice it without forgetting or restoring unsafe trust.

From there, we get tactical. Sleep debt, high call volumes, and 24-hour shifts push good people into impulsive decisions. Cultural brainwashing tells responders to be brave, strong, and self-reliant—until that story keeps them from getting help. We dig into the data, including surprising patterns among women in fire and EMS, and outline what a proactive program looks like: family education, annual mental health checkups, vetted clinicians outside insurance for privacy, real-time aftercare after tough calls, and telehealth to reach rural members. Leaders will hear budget-smart ways to protect training from the chopping block, and crews will gain language for checking on a partner without making it awkward.

You can reach Jeff at the following websites:

For the Firefighter Behavioral Alliance (FFBA), please go to: https://www.ffbha.org 

For the moral injury white paper, download it by clicking: https://www.ffbha.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/Moral-Injury-White-Paper-2-9-23.pdf

 For the Firefighter Behavioral Alliance (FFBA) Facebook page, please go to https://www.facebook.com/FirefighterBehavioralHealthAlliance

If you’re a firefighter, EMT, dispatcher, or cop—or you love someone who is—you’ll walk away with tools you can use today and a clearer picture of how to build a healthier culture tomorrow. Subscribe, share this with your crew, and leave a review so others can find it. You’re not alone.

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Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_00 (00:01):
Welcome to Resilience Development in Action
with Database Holmes.
This is a podcast dedicated tofirst responder mental health,
helping police, fire, EMS,dispatchers, and paramedics
create better growthenvironments for themselves and
their team.
Let's get started.ai.

SPEAKER_02 (00:37):
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Free.ai, a great service.
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And I highly encourage you to dothat.
Well, hi everyone, and welcometo episode 239.
If you haven't listened toepisode 238, it was with Alexa
still a great conversation.

(02:01):
She's a mental health therapist,first responder, mental health
therapist, her family is in it.
So great interview.
Go back and listen.
But for episode 239, I havesomeone that I truly am excited
to talk to.
I've heard his name many timesin different circles.
And what happened is he happensto be a very good friend of a
good a friend of mine.

(02:21):
So we're a friend of a friend,so I guess we are friends in
some ways.
Blight Landry, who's been onthis show before, you've heard
her a few times.
So but this is someone who, youknow, is exactly what I've
always wanted as a firstresponder who became a therapist
and who understands both sidesof the story, which I think is
really, really rare.
And we get we're getting closerto having more people like that.

(02:43):
But I think that when I thinkabout the West Coast and how far
along you are with the mentalhealth part, I think that the
person that gets the mostfeedback, good positive feedback
is Jeff Dill.
And Jeff, welcome to ResilienceDevelopment in Action.

SPEAKER_01 (02:58):
Dave, you know, I'm absolutely honored to be here.
And uh hopefully some of your uhlisteners will pick up a few
gems uh from what I've learnedthese past 16 years and apply it
to their lives and to theirorganizations.

SPEAKER_02 (03:11):
The goal of this podcast is really to get mental
health and first responders tounderstand it that the checkout
from the neck up once a year isas good as the physical checkup
that we do.
And you think aboutfirefighters, it's basic to do
so.
Why aren't we doing that formental health?
That's always been my goal.
Uh so I'm sure they're gonnalearn a few things from you.

SPEAKER_01 (03:29):
Well, I appreciate that.
Uh, I can tell you that LasVegas Fire and Rescue, uh, they
have an annual physical and anannual mental health checkup.
So we're very proactive outhere.

SPEAKER_02 (03:40):
Well, I was in I was in a meeting with someone from
the state senate inMassachusetts a couple months
ago, and they were telling methat apparently there is
something in MGL mass generallaw that says that first
responders, police, firefighter,paramedics, emts, and
dispatchers have a right to onebehavioral health visit a year.

(04:02):
And they ask me, hey, Steve, howoften do they use that?
I'm like, honestly, this is thefirst time I ever heard of it.
It's been out since 2022.
So I'm looking into that, and itreally does exist, number one.
And number two, why aren't weusing that and why are people
slightly silent about that?
I think I'm gonna push it withthe unions around here.
They're pretty strong in theNortheast.
So I think yes, they are.

SPEAKER_01 (04:23):
So I and I hope they take advantage of it.
Uh it's absolutely necessary.
And anyone on our peer supportteam, it's in our policy.
You know, we recommend one totwo sessions uh a year and uh we
will pay for it.

SPEAKER_02 (04:36):
So and I think that that's where we gotta start.
I mean, I am gonna I can go onand on, but you know, like I
because I again for me it's theother part too, is that if you
know, I can't remember whichorganization, but they if you do
the sex crime detective stuff,you gotta go quarterly to go see
a shrink to like get your headin in the right place.

(04:57):
And I think that that's shouldbe standard for a lot of that
stuff because it's really hardstuff to watch.

SPEAKER_01 (05:03):
It is, no doubt about it.

SPEAKER_02 (05:05):
But you know, I feel like I were we're already
friends because we're a friendof a friend, but maybe my
audience doesn't know who JeffDill is.
So how about you tell them whoyou are?

SPEAKER_01 (05:14):
Yeah, I I appreciate it.
Uh I'll try to keep it to thereaders' digest.
Uh I was born and raised inRochester, New York.
Uh, I didn't after I graduatedhigh school in 79.
I really didn't want to work atKodak or Xerox.
I didn't want to be in afactory, didn't want to go to
college.
So I moved out to Chicago tolive with my uncle, my dad's
brother.
Uh, met my wife a few monthsafter that.

(05:37):
Uh we got married in 1980.
We just celebrated 45 years ofmarriage this past Saturday.
Congratulations.
And uh, so I'd I'd always triedto find out who I was.
So I once we got married andthen we started our family.
I always had a full-time job.
I drove a truck for a schooldistrict, but I was always
looking for myself.
Uh, I was in broadcasting, I rana sports director for a radio

(05:59):
station outside of Chicago here.
I used to cover the ChicagoBulls, used to interview Michael
Jordan down in the locker rooms.
I worked for the uh BaltimoreOrioles, their minor league ball
club out there in the Midwest.
I worked part-time 10 years onthe PGA tour, building clubs for
the for the players.
I'd stand at the greens andbuild that.
And when I reflect back, I thinkabout all those experiences, how

(06:23):
it molded me to who I was.
And so finally in in 1990, Ibecame a volunteer firefighter
in the Northwest suburbs ofChicago.
I went career in '95 and movedup pretty quickly within the
ranks.
I was a battalion chief,probably the longest.
And my life was going alongpretty good as a firefighter

(06:44):
when in 2005 Hurricane Katrinahit.
And Division I outside ofChicago sent down numerous
firefighters to help out ourbrothers and sisters down in New
Orleans.
And when they came back,including a couple from our
department, and when they cameback, they showed me videos of
the devastation, thedestruction.
They were picking up bodies inthe streets and they were

(07:04):
struggling.
Of course, this is 2005, and wenever talked about behavior
health in the first responderworld.
So I thought, well, how can Iget back to my brothers and
sisters?
I went back, got my master'sdegree, and became a licensed
counselor.
And in 2009, my wife Karen andI, we founded counseling
services for firefighters, andwe started training counselors

(07:25):
and chaplains.
Hey, you want to work with us?
You need to understand this.
We're a little different.
Not that it's wrong from mypoint of view, but we're a
little different.
When in early 2010, I startedreceiving emails and phone calls
from all over the world saying,Do you do anything about
firefighter suicides?
I said, firefighter suicides?
No one ever talked about that.

(07:46):
I started doing a littleresearch and found out we might
have an issue here.
And that's when in 2010, my wifeand I, we founded Firefighter
Behavioral Health Alliance.
Just a small little nonprofit.

We had three goals (07:57):
educational workshops, a scholarship program
for children, a fire and DMS.
And then our probably our mostendearing is our annual weekend
retreat for family survivors,one of the most powerful
weekends you can ever imagine.
I imagine.
So we've uh we we'veaccomplished that.
I've traveled about 1.5 millionmiles over the last 12 years

(08:19):
across the U.S.
and Canada.
You know, we have 14 differenttypes of workshops.
And what makes us different isthat those workshops, 90% of
them come from our brothers andsisters and the family
survivors.
They're not things I just pulledoff the internet.
But also in 2010, we startedtracking and validating
firefighter and EMS suicides inAmerica.

(08:40):
And if anyone's listening,you've ever seen any data or
heard the phrase there's beenmore suicides, firefighter
suicides than line of duty doesand articles, it all comes from
us.
And uh so we we can talk aboutthe data as the as the meeting
goes forward here.
But uh that's and then then onJuly 1st of 2021, I became the

(09:02):
behavior health administratorfor Las Vegas Fire and Rescue.
So that's that's it.
Uh Reader's Digest snippet.

SPEAKER_02 (09:10):
Well, that's what I was gonna say.
I I think that there's a lotmore to be said, but that's oh
there there is.
Absolutely.
I thank you for what you do, bythe way.
It really was not some like mostmost of my listeners know I
don't blow smoke up people'sbutt because I don't believe in
that.
I tell the truth.
And I really was happy to meetyou, and I'm happy we had a

(09:30):
friend, you know.
One of the things that I like tostart off with the besides
getting an intro is sometimespeople want to get certain
things out in a bot in apodcast.
What should people remember fromthis podcast that you want
people to really remember fromanything we said?
If they forget my name, yourname, and everyone else's name.

SPEAKER_01 (09:49):
I want them to remember the phrase internal
size up, because what that meansis that every one of us should
be asking ourselves twoquestions.
Why am I acting this way?
Why am I feeling this way?
And the best thing that we cando is listen to others because
they see us better than we willever see ourselves.

(10:10):
Like I said, my wife of 45 yearsknows my tone of voice, my
character, my body language, myinflection in my voice.
She knows when I'm struggling orhad a bad day.
But we also have to learn tolisten to our bodies.
It's telling us you're notsleeping, you're getting angrier
a lot quicker, you've turned tosome type of addiction, maybe,

(10:31):
your lack of communications.
It's telling us your sleepissues.
We need help.
We have to listen to it.
And that's what I want people tounderstand is that internal size
up, and you can do it with aloved one as well.
At the end of the night, you sitdown and say, Hey, what emotion
did I display today?
How did it affect you, my lovedone, and how can we work

(10:55):
together to resolve that?
So that's that's a phrase Icoined many, many years ago.
I was actually heading up to auh fire as a battalion chief,
and and one of the firefighterssays, Well, this is the size up
of what we have, and it just itjust hit me right away.
Why not?
How about an internal size up ofhow we're feeling?
So that's that's one key phrasethat I would absolutely love for

(11:17):
people to have.

SPEAKER_02 (11:18):
I think we need to talk about that.
That's exactly like it's a lotlike it's funny when you talked
about doing it at the end of theday, the internal size up.
All I can think of is I journal,but I guess that's not manly
enough.
So I guess we got to call itinternal size up, make it a
little more manly.

SPEAKER_01 (11:33):
Well, no, journaling actually is is fabulous.
And I when I was counseling andworking with firefighters, I
would tell them to journalbecause you know as well as I
do, Steve, when we talk topeople, we have an art of BSing
really well.
But when you sit and you startwriting from your heart, you
can't BS that.
And firefighters would come backuh the following week and they

(11:57):
would be in tears as they readwhat they wrote because they
never realized how much theywere hurting or how much they
were hiding.
And so I absolutely lovejournaling.

SPEAKER_02 (12:08):
The reason why, you know, like for me, we we I run a
group, I run actually two groupsa week with first responders
only.
This is very I don't let anyoneelse in.
And I tried a few times to getthe journaling going, it did not
go well.
So that's why I would say, like,I think if I call it internal
size up, I think it's going tobe a lot more palpable for

(12:28):
people.

SPEAKER_01 (12:29):
Absolutely, because they understand what a size up
is in the first responder world.
Police, dispatchers.
I mean, you you know what sizeup means.
You come up on a scene, you geta phone call as a dispatcher,
all of a sudden you're sizing upwhat the issue is.
So that's uh, and it seems likeit's an acceptable term because
a lot of people talk about itdoing an internal size up.

SPEAKER_02 (12:51):
Well, we'll definitely I want to hear about
that.
I mean, you know, I think thatmay be a good pl part to start
here.

unknown (12:58):
Okay.

SPEAKER_02 (12:58):
Something that happens a whole lot with people
like I know that you're you'rebattalion chief when you worked
as a you still work as afirefighter, are you done?

SPEAKER_01 (13:06):
Or no, uh I I'm retired.
Uh I'm a civilian here as at uhLas Vegas Fire and Rescue.

unknown (13:12):
Okay.

SPEAKER_01 (13:12):
So but oh overall 35 years.

SPEAKER_02 (13:15):
So it's well, yeah, I would I would argue that
you're not quite a civilian, butwe'll agree to disagree.
Right.
At the end of the day, though, Ithink that one of the things
that happened, this is one ofthe most important things.
I did a survey about a year ago,two years ago, and I'm gonna do
it again, but I know the answeralready.
When I asked, what's the numberone stress for first responders?

(13:37):
Administration betrayal isalways like 80, 90.
That those are the numbers thatI typically get.
Right.
And a lot of it comes from moralinjury.

unknown (13:49):
Correct.

SPEAKER_02 (13:49):
I think it comes also, you know, like I'm gonna
use your words, cultural brain,you know, brainwashing that also
occurs.
Right.
Until you're no longerbrainwashed, right?
I like to hear more about moralinjury.
I mean, that's myinterpretation.
I mean, I simplified it a wholelot, obviously, but want to hear
more about because moralinjuries are so important to
discuss because I think thatthat's to me the number one

(14:10):
stressor for most firstresponders.

SPEAKER_01 (14:13):
Well, it's also the number one known reason why our
brothers and sisters are killingthemselves.
Correct.
And so when I had first started,a couple firefighters called me
up and said, Jeff, can you comeout to one of our stations?
Uh, we want to watch, want youto watch a video of a doctor
doing a TED talk talking aboutmoral injury and first
responders.

(14:33):
And he said, Well, have youheard about that?
And I said, Well, being alicensed counselor, yes, but
it's not in the DSM 5, you know,the diagnostical statistics
manual, so it wasn't reallypushed.
So I, being me who I am with allmy research that I do, I started
really investigating it.
I talked to the Shea Foundation,found out that Dr.
Jonathan Shea is actually theperson that's credited with the

(14:58):
phrase moral injury.
He was working with the militaryback in the 80s when he started
talking about this and they dida lot of research.
The military's done a lot ofresearch.
I I talked to Dr.
Litz out of Boston University,who created the moral injury
outcome scale.
And I thought to myself, youknow what?
I I think I need to do a whitepaper on moral injury because I

(15:21):
tied everything into, I alwaystie things into our data.
And let me clarify, I havevalidated 2,278 fire EMS or
dispatcher suicides.
About 95% of that arefirefighters.
And we know that in our data,the number one known reason for
our brothers and sisters killingthemselves is due to

(15:44):
relationships.
So I started looking at thismoral injury, and and I can't
write a white paper because ifif anyone's ever read one, you
see it's very diplomaticwritten.
I speak from my heart and mysoul.
So I had a good friend of mine,Dr.
Liz Fletcher from Houston, and Isaid, Liz, I know I know you
write white papers.

(16:04):
Uh, can you you want to workwith me on this?
And I told her, you know what Iwas going to do, I was sending
this more injured outcome scalesurvey to 15 fire department in
EMS organizations.
And she said, Absolutely, Jeff.
So when they started comingback, we started looking at it,
and I looked at it, I said, Ihave no idea what the hell this
means, these moral injuredoutcome surveys.

(16:25):
So I had to find someone whocould, and that's where we met
Chaps.
His his name is is so long.
I I he just tells people to callhim Chaps.
He uh is a military chaplain, heruns the moral injury unit at
Rush Memorial Hospital inChicago.
And I said, Chaps, I said, wouldyou like to be on our team?
Well, I'll send you theinformation, you can interpret

(16:46):
it, and then we'll write thewhite paper.
And that's what we did.
And so what I found out, uh, wedecided to create a workshop,
PTSD versus moral injury.
What are the differences?
So, moral injury in its beliefis that as a human being, we are
born inherently to do good.
We want to help.

(17:07):
Right.
So we get into the firstresponder world, we're trained
to help others to save lives.
And in particular, fire EMS.
Uh I was a fire medic, so uh,you know, you're trained to you
know, drug therapy, IVs,interosseous, you know,
electrocardiogram, all thosesorts of things with the
monitoring.

(17:28):
Right.
Well, over time, you startseeing more death than you're
helping.
Over the last couple of years,I've done an informal survey of
wherever I speak, and I've askedour brothers and sisters, what's
our save rate?
By the time we get there for adrowning, a full arrest, a
vehicle accident, someonetrapped in a fire, attempted

(17:49):
suicide, what's actually oursave rate?
And we came to the consensus itwas five to eight percent.
So we're seeing a lot of death.
I think that's why we celebratewhen we do bring someone back,
or if we uh deliver a baby, youknow, we're we're it's it's it's
something that we're trained tofinally, we saw some good come

(18:09):
out of it.
So where PTSD is trauma-based,fear-based, moral injury hits
our emotions, whether it'sguilt, jealousy, anger, fear,
whatever those emotions are,depression.
Right.
But one key aspect of moralinjury is betrayal.
Betrayal by administration.

(18:31):
Hey, you promised us moreworkers and less overtime,
better pay, better equipment, orbetrayal by others.
Why are you bullying and pickingon me as a member of this
department?
Why are you stabbing me in theback because it's job promotion
time, even though we've beenyour friends for years after

(18:52):
years after years, or betrayalby ourselves?
Why didn't I say something whenI saw someone being bullied?
Why did I go out and have anaffair and ruin my relationship
with my spouse and my childrennow?
So where you can have, so I Italked to the military about I

(19:12):
interviewed them a few times.
You can have PTSD and moralinjury at the same time, but two
different types of treatmentthoughts.
One is is that with moralinjury, is that the key
component of that is the abilityto forgive, to forgive others
and forgive yourself.

(19:33):
And that's key.
And it's easier said than done.
And the other thing with themilitary, I looked at my data
and I found over 40 of ourbrothers and sisters that went
to inpatient facilities foreither depression, addictions,
or PTSD.
And when they came out, theystill ended up taking their

(19:55):
lives.
It just makes me think what wasthe PTSD or the addiction.
Addressed, but no one looked atthe moral injury.
And so the key question for mewhen I asked the military, I
said, when you looked at yourdata, where was the highest
correlation of suicides of yoursoldiers?
And they said, by far, Jeff, welost more soldiers to moral

(20:16):
injury than PTS.
Yeah.
And that's when I knew, based onthe relationships being the
number one method or number onereason out of the 2,278 that I
have validated, relationshipshits our emotions, whether it's
at work or whether it's in ourpersonal lives.
And that's why I'm a firmbeliever moral injury plays a

(20:39):
larger role than post-traumaticstress.

SPEAKER_02 (20:42):
I'm going to link out that white paper.
I know that you sent me thelink.
I make sure that that's in theshow notes.
Very important.
You also said a lot of things Iwant to kind of like expand on a
little bit.
Please do.
And I don't know which ones Iwant to start off with.
First of all, when you told meyou've been married for 45
years.
Correct.
I'm like, wow, you must be likea unicorn because you know one

(21:04):
of the things, and I'm notpicking on any of the guys in
the fire service, but you knowthat divorce is a pretty high
rate, again, higher rate thanthe general population.

SPEAKER_01 (21:13):
Oh, yeah, it's somewhere between 65 and 68
percent.

SPEAKER_02 (21:16):
Yeah, I've heard like 65 to 70 regularly around
there.
So that's why I wanted tomention that because, and you
know, congratulations.
That's thank you.

SPEAKER_01 (21:26):
I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_02 (21:27):
Civilian or not, that's quite an accomplishment.
The other part that you talkedabout is you talked about
ability to forgive.
I want to get back to that.
But you said celebrate ouraccomplishments.
Here's one of the things I wantto kind of like play devil's
advocate here.
What I find with my guys inparticular, they're like, oh,
you saved a life or you ran intoa fire and you pulled someone

(21:47):
out.
And then the state or whoeverwants to recognize them, they
all get embarrassed.
They don't want to be that'sright.
Okay.
So you said, yes, we celebratethose, but we celebrate it in
like the group.
Like, I'm not a firefighter, I'mnot a police officer, but I'm
just a civilian.
But I've been at those tableswhere they'll celebrate within
themselves, but once they got togo in public and get that

(22:07):
celebration, they getembarrassed or they try to
minimize it the best you can.
So part of me wonders if some ofthe moral injury and the stuff
that happens too is that wecelebrate privately, but then we
get embarrassed about somethingthat people want to recognize.
And sometimes I think I tellpeople that that's actually a
problem.
So I don't know what you think,but I've seen that too many
times.

SPEAKER_01 (22:27):
Well, it's a good point.
You know, it's that, well, whatabout the 99 other people that
died that I could not save?
So why should I be awarded thisone that it's actually out of my
hands?
It's you know, it's up to thegood Lord and and the physical
uh capabilities of that personthat's struggling.
But you know, it is, it's for mehumble.

(22:51):
Uh, people say you're you'revery humble, Jeff.
And and I look at it this wayyou won't look on our Facebook
and see, oh, we saved anotherlife.
We had a firefighter call us andwe saved another life.
That that's not that that'sbetween me and the good Lord.
And it's not for me to celebratethat aspect.
Because when people call me, thefirst thing I tell them, I
commend you for calling andreaching out.

(23:13):
And and I think that's where usin the first responder world is
a, well, we're trained to dothis.
That's what we're trained to do.
And I tell clinicians when I'mtraining them, I said, don't
when they sit down and say, hey,you know, I respect you, you're
a hero to me.
I don't want to hear that.
I can get that at the grocerystore, right?

(23:33):
You know, I'm here for certainreasons.
And when we finally save a life,and believe me, I've delivered a
baby, it feels good.
They named her Jefferina.
No, I'm only teasing you.
No, that's a great name.
I like that.
I like that.
It's a great name, isn't it?
Jeff Arena.
But it's it's that's between meand uh, you know, my my

(23:54):
training.
And if but it feels likesomething finally paid off.
Right.
And but what about the the otherdrownings and things that we
couldn't save?
So we we kind of stay kind ofhumbled in that aspect.

SPEAKER_02 (24:07):
Okay, so I'll argue again, if you don't mind.
No, I don't believe in I believein humbleness because that's the
stuff that I also try to do thebest I can.
But you know, I've had somepeople who said, you know, as a
therapist, you save lives.
And I'm like, well, I'm not no,I'm just like just doing my job.
But there's also kind of a pridething that sometimes once in a

(24:27):
while I'm like, yeah, sometimesI do I do save people's lives.
I may not always know, and I'vehad messages way after therapy
was over, but hey, you saidthis, that stuck with me for the
rest of my life, and orwhatever.
But it's hard to like when thehumbleness is also kind of
recognizing while stayinghumble.
And I think maybe that's thehard balance that people have,

(24:47):
not only in your field, but ingeneral.
I mean, okay, we're we're notgonna I'm not gonna pick on any
particular industry here.
I'm gonna try to be nice.
But in our our industries,particularly the first responder
world, and I look at even themental health.
I don't know many mental healthcounselors go, look at me, I
save 40 lives or whatever,because they'll think about the
three suicides that occurred orthe whatever.

(25:09):
Right.
So, how do we balancerecognizing our achievement
while remaining humble?
I think that's a thing thathappens a lot.

SPEAKER_01 (25:17):
But I think that's also a character, either it's a
character flaw or a characterstrength in that person.
And so, you know, I I don't knowif that's something you can
train or teach someone.
It's just within them.
But I I've seen more themajority firefighters, EMS,
dispatchers, that they don'treally like that recognition,

(25:38):
that that say, hey, you know,this is my job.
I I love it, I do it, and Idon't even consider it a job.
And it it took me about 14 yearsto finally admit that what I do
in you know, validating thesuicides and hearing 2200 plus
30 stories of how our brothersand sisters take their lives,

(25:58):
it's tough.
There's there's no doubt aboutit.
Have we saved lives?
Absolutely.
I have the emails, I havechildren that have written
saying thanks for helping mydaddy.
But that stays between me.
That's me.
I don't think what good does itdo for me to put that out on
Facebook and things like that?
That that looks like you're justlooking for some type of

(26:20):
validation.
I don't need validation.
You know, this is the path thatI was put on by the good Lord,
and that's my validation.
And and I don't need uh, I don'tneed awards.
In 16 years, FBHA has never beenrecognized for anything,
although many, many peoplebelieve that we were the
movement for the behavioralhealth, especially suicide.

(26:40):
But and and I and that's okaybecause all I'm concerned about,
Steve, is that day I meet St.
Peter at the gates, that I'vedone one better thing than
negative, and I'm allowed to goin.
That's what I concentrate on.

SPEAKER_02 (26:53):
I get that.
I mean, I I always remind myselfthat the reason why, I mean, I I
I'm gonna keep it as vague as Ican, and there's a reason for
that.
I do do some work pro bono forcertain things, and I'm keeping
it vague because I will bedamned if someone thanks me for
it.
I'm doing it because it's likegoodness of my own heart.
Right.
And I'm keeping it as vague as Ican.

(27:14):
Some obviously the people whoknow I do this, they think they
thank me, and that's fine.
But I don't want anyone becauseI feel like you know, Veterans
Day was not too long ago, andthen people are like, they thank
the veteran, and then they don'tget a text for another year, and
then the last message they gotis happy Veterans Day.

unknown (27:29):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (27:30):
I think that for me, it's you want a truthful
thankfulness, and thatthankfulness becomes your thing.
You don't need to broadcastthat.
And I agree with that, and Iappreciate the explanation.
I want to switch gears though,because you talked about ability
to forgive.
Now I know what that means.
I have a hard time explaining toit to my firefighters, my

(27:53):
paramedics, my dispatch, uhpolice, uh, corrections,
whatever.
They the that ability toforgive, because they perceive
forgiveness as that was okay.
And I always say that's not whatthat means.

unknown (28:08):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (28:08):
But can you help me explain it better?
Because maybe I'm not using theright language.

SPEAKER_01 (28:14):
That ability to forgive, it's different than the
ability to forget.
Correct.
And so that that is one of thekey issues is that when you
start talking to people and say,hey, you know, I I forgive you
for that whatever you did.
You know, maybe uh you youstarted spreading rumors uh
about me in regard to jobpromotion.

(28:36):
Even though we've been friendsfor 20 plus years, you started
some rumor that I might not bequalified enough as a battalion
chief, let's say.
So, you know what?
I can forgive you.
Why?
Because that gives me peace ofmind, and that's what you need
is you're you're being selfishon that.

(28:56):
It gives me not that I'm goingto forget, and not that we'll
probably ever be friends again,but I will not hold any disdain
discord to you.
And I will talk to you, I willtalk to you as a human being,
but make may make it known wewill never be friends again, but
I'm not going to hold anythingagainst you.

(29:18):
I'm not going to slander yourname out there.
I'm not going to be telling youpeople, hey, do you know what
this guy did to me?
No, I've forgiven that, but itgives you more internal peace,
and that's what we need when wesay, Hey, I forgive you.
You're actually saying toyourself, I need that internal

(29:39):
peace.
I need to move forward in mylife.

SPEAKER_02 (29:42):
I explain it similarly to that.
Forgiveness is not about theother person, it's about
yourself.
Right.
You know, and I use the Buddhistanalogy, and I I like this
analogy, is holding on to thesegrudges and not forgiving people
is like holding on to a hot coalin your hand, hoping it's going
to burn the other person.
Right.
I think that's another analogythat people understand.

(30:04):
That's what happens.
You hold this bitterness in yourhand, you're just burning
yourself.
The other person truly doesn'tcare in some ways.
Right.
And I that's another analogy Iuse.

SPEAKER_01 (30:15):
No, and and it's accurate.
I mean, the the ability toforgive allows you at least to
start talking to people,especially families that have
maybe there's been a riffsomewhere.
Well, all of a sudden, nextthing you know, three years have
gone by and they haven'tcommunicated.
And life is too short.
Life is way too short.
Now you can call and you canhave a good time at the holidays

(30:38):
and things.
Doesn't mean you're going to berunning across the street to
shake your hand and things, butit does say, hey, I can sit in a
room with you.
We can recall and laugh andjoke.
Doesn't mean I'm going to trustyou all that aspect, but it
means I I forgive you for thatact or whatever that issue was.
And like I said, you you as ahuman being, you can't hold on

(31:00):
to that past.
And I tell people, especiallyour retirees, when they they
talk about their past all thetime.
I say, it's great to rememberthe past, but don't live in it.
And that's that's key.
And so when someone has done youwrong, you you can remember it,
but don't live in that.

SPEAKER_02 (31:21):
So I have a little saying on my wall that I got
when I got my first privatepractice, and it's still there.
And it says, Don't forget whereyou came from, but never lose
sight of where you're going.

unknown (31:31):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (31:31):
And I tell people that's kind of, you know, I live
in the present, I know where Icame from.
I'm a blue-collar guy from myfamily, true and true.
I'm lucky enough to sit on mybutt and get paid to listen to
people.
And I'll never forget thatbecause that's where I started.
That doesn't mean I take thatfor granted and I move forward
and do other stuff.
I think it's important to kindof like do both in order to move

(31:52):
forward.
And holding again a grudgeagainst Johnny and Jane.
And how's that serving you?
How's that helping you?

SPEAKER_01 (32:01):
It doesn't, it does more damage to you than anyone
else.

SPEAKER_02 (32:04):
So I I've learned to to let go with that, and it's
such a liberation once you getit, but I think it's to get it
is really complicated.

SPEAKER_01 (32:15):
Absolutely.
And that's why I say that moralinjury, you know, that's you
need to get help.
You you cannot handle theseissues on your own.
And so that's why you do thatinternal size up.
You know, why am I acting thisway or feeling this way?
I need to reach out, and I tellpeople, push pride to the side,
push it to the side and reachout and get help.

SPEAKER_02 (32:35):
I I think to talk a little more about the moral
injury, one of the conversationsI have with a whole lot of
people is your feelings arevalid.
That doesn't mean they're right.
They're valid.
You can feel whatever the hellyou want.
Right.
But that doesn't mean it'salways right.
And so that's a good way to kindof like pay attention to your
emotions and then look at it.

SPEAKER_01 (32:58):
And that's where your feelings and emotions come
into play in what I callcognitive disconnect.
And so when a member of you knowFire EMS, they go through that
cognitive disconnect, and whatthat means is they're basing a
decision on the emotion they'regoing through in reality, went
right out the window.
So if their emotion isdepression or anger or guilt,

(33:20):
and their thought process is,hey, you know what?
I need to get rid of this pain.
I've been dealing with this painfor so long.
Or, you know, my family would bea lot better off.
And I, and we, my wife and I, weknow hundreds of family members.
In all these years, I've neverheard one say, geez, thank God
that SOB is gone.
No, but that's that's thatcognitive disconnect that they

(33:43):
they're basing it on thatdecision, that emotion they're
going through.
And if you're not there to stopthat, how do we stop that person
from taking their lives?
Well, hopefully it's through theeducation of the internal size
of.
Why am I acting this way?
Why am I feeling this way?
So that that cognitivedisconnect, they're they're
basing decision, then they canbe instantly.

(34:04):
You know, they get a phone call.
Wife says, I'm moving out.
Uh I'm done.
I've had enough, or I I foundanother man.
And all of a sudden, boom,whatever anger, jealousy, guilt,
whatever that is.
And we all we all go throughthose things.
How many times have you beendriving on I-90 out there
outside of Boston and someonecuts you off and your pop goes

(34:24):
flying?
I mean, do you just uh kind ofwave at him say you have a great
day, or are you, hey, you knowwhat, I'm gonna catch up to him
and hit him in the quarter paneland drive him into the ditch,
right?
Because your anger is so greatat that moment.
And and we saw this out here inVegas uh last week.
Uh road rage, one guy pulls outa gun and he and he shoots it

(34:46):
into a car and kills an11-year-old boy.
You know, so that he based thedecision on the anger that he
was going through, and it costhim uh definitely jail time, but
it cost the life of a young boyand a family just going to
school.
So, like I said, we have tounderstand our emotions.

SPEAKER_02 (35:05):
And you just described every massole that I
know, so it's just the culturearound here, I believe.
But we don't pull guns too much.
That's the that's the good news.
We don't pull many guns.
So the it's we we just verballybecome aggressive.
No, no Boston chocolate creampies go flying out the window or
anything.
Hey, if I I'm gonna give you anold reference here, it's the the

(35:27):
molasses start ro flowing, youcan't stop them.
Right.
Look it up if for those who arelistening, just look it up if
you want to, the great molassesuh in Boston in like 1938 or
something like that.
I can't remember here.
I'm gonna switch gears a littlebit because I think that we
can't come back to this anyway.
But I what I would love to do isto talk a little more about, you

(35:48):
know, firefighter behavioralhealth alliance.
You know, this is a great thing.
Believe me, I'm I I can't tellyou how many times I've heard
good things.
I I don't want to get into muchdetail, but I find that the
firefighters have are a littlebit ahead in the mental health
well realm than the police ingeneral.
Okay, and I might disagree withthat.
Okay, well we'll we can debateit.

(36:09):
That's great.
I love the debate.
So so do I.
But let's start off with uhmaybe the easier part and then
we'll debate.

unknown (36:15):
Okay.

SPEAKER_02 (36:16):
Firefighter behavioral health alliance.
You you wake up one day and yougo, gee, Willakers, I'm gonna do
this, and uh poof, it comes up,and you've been doing this for
10 years.
Or what happens?

SPEAKER_01 (36:26):
Yeah, or yeah, or what happens in what aspect?

SPEAKER_02 (36:30):
Yeah.
Well, how did it start?
How did it continue?
How do you keep maintain themotivation?

SPEAKER_01 (36:36):
It's actually like that.
And and that's a great question.
You know, like I said, um,everyone has to have a support
system.
My wife, she uh she's the boardpresident.
Uh, without her, FBHA doesn'trun.
But also, my my strength andsupport system.
I just said this at a peersupport training yesterday.
You know, people have theirspouses partners, and I said,
Yeah, I I have a wonderful wifethat supports me, but I also

(36:58):
have someone who walked onwater.
And so, because it'schallenging, donation-wise,
financial-wise, not too manypeople want to give to
behavioral health, andespecially suicide.
I I've had manufacturers tell meto my face, uh, Jeff, we love
what you do, but it's suicide,and it might be a negative
connotation against ourbusiness.

(37:19):
Even one told me that there'snot much of a return on
investment for us to make adonation.
I'm thinking, you're savinglives.
We're out thinking, we'regetting out there to do
workshops, to educate not onlythe firefighters, but their
families.
And that that's so key becausewe know, like I said, families
is the number one issue thatwe're we're we die by.

(37:40):
And so I have no problem beingmotivated to get up every
morning to see how I can helphere in Las Vegas.
I put together a 12-pointprogram from academy to
retirement.
People know who I am, so theywill text me, they will call me,
they will Facebook to meregarding a loss across the

(38:02):
United States.
It's we only estimate about a60% reporting.
There's a lot more work to bedone.
In 2010, when we started uhdoing all this, we got beat up,
Steve.
I still have the emails saying,Oh, you're making up the
numbers.
PTS, that's a military.
What the what the hell's goingon?
And so, but a cute side note.

(38:22):
A couple of years ago, I was inLincoln, Nebraska speaking when
a young female firefighter cameup to me.
Of course, at my age, everyone'syoung.
And she says, you know, shesays, I've been following you
and your wife and FBHA since youyou started in 2010.
She says, I think you're thegrandfather of the movement, the
behavior, health, and the fireservice.
And I just turned to her, Isaid, Well, why can't I be the
father?
Why do I be the father?

(38:43):
Exactly.
That's exactly what I wasthinking.
I never seen anyone turn so redin my life so fast.
I'm just teasing with you.
You know, and a lot of peoplebelieve that we are we're that
movement to, especially in thesuicide realm of it.
Uh, but I I have no problembecause I absolutely, like I

(39:05):
said, love it when people callme and say, Jeff, I need help.
And that's that's such a greatfeeling when people come to you
and say, Can you help me?
I'm struggling.
And because I've been doing thisfor 16 years, I mean, my
resources across the UnitedStates are are a plethora of

(39:25):
resources.
And I just I I call whoever andsay, hey, I have this
firefighter or this EMT or thisthis dispatcher.
Yeah, how can we help them?
How can we get them into aninpatient facility?
How can we fire find and I findcounselors for them?
I do that for free.
I find counselors that work withfirst responders that I have
already vetted, and I call them.

(39:48):
Now, great story.
Uh I will tell you.
This one story I I put onFacebook a couple years ago
because he he asked me to.
He says, he called me one dayand he says, Jeff, I don't know
if you remember me.
And I said, I'm sorry, I don'tremember.
You know, he said, I called youabout two years ago.
I was sitting in the parking lotof a Walmart at night.

(40:08):
I had a gun in my hand.
And I'm thinking, this is it.
Tonight's the night.
And something inside me said,look once again for someone.
And he said, Up popped on myphone when I Googled it was
FBHA.
I called you that night, late atnight.
You had me in a counselor thenext day.
And it saved my life.

(40:29):
The divorce went through, but hesays, I'm back with my children.
I've remarried.
I got out of the fire service.
I started a business.
He said, I am the happiest I'veever been in my life.
And it's those things thatmotivate you to get you to
continue to do what I do.
Will there be a time?

(40:50):
Absolutely.
And I have to start looking andvetting someone that I feel
meets, you know, with verystrict uh rules and of
confidentiality, validating thesuicides to run FBHA.
So I I have to start thatprocess as well because if I
leave, guess what?

(41:11):
All the data goes to.
And we we have, like I said, wehave a lot of data that people
use.
So it's that that's whatmotivates me, Steve, is that I
know out there today someonemight be calling and saying, I
need some help.
And like I said, first thing Isay is, I commend you.
I have so many numbers of thosewho maybe did not reach out.

(41:33):
Right.
And that's important.

SPEAKER_02 (41:35):
I can't tell you how much I agree.
Sometimes I do say that topeople.
And what I always remind myselfwhen people are sharing their
stories, no matter if it's acivilian or a first responder, I
can't do first responders 100%of the time with all due respect
to all my guys, because I need,you know, I need some other
types so that I can handle it alot better.

(41:56):
Call me whatever you want.
That's just how it is.
But one of the things that Ialways remind myself is thank
you for the privilege.
Sometimes people will break downand tell me something really,
really hard that they've nevertold another human being.
And I say, thank you.
And everyone turns around andsays, Well, you're my therapist.
I'm supposed to.
I said, but you don't have to.
And that's the difference.

(42:16):
Thank you.
Appreciate it.

SPEAKER_01 (42:18):
Absolutely.
And I just actually said thatlast week in Iowa.
A female firefighter who justfound out she has a debilitating
disease that's starting toattack her.
She knows she'll be in awheelchair in a few years.
And after during the break, Iwalked over to her and I said,
Can I ask, can I ask you, can Ihave a hug?

(42:38):
I said, because I was so honoredthat you opened up in front of
these people to talk about it.
And yet your positive attitudewas absolutely amazing.
And I just wanted to see if Icould give you a hug.
And it and it's those littlethings, Steve, that are there's
there's it's nothing monumental.

(42:58):
It's just one human beingconnecting with another human
being, right?
Saying, I I appreciate youropening up to me and I want to
return that by a hug, a thankyou, or whatever it is.
And it's not that difficult, butpeople are afraid, especially
when it comes to behavioralhealth.
You know, what how do I asksomeone if they're struggling?

(43:19):
And and I tell people, have youever asked a good friend or a
family member, are you thinkingabout killing yourself?
Because it is damn difficult todo.
And you have to practice infront of a mirror of saying it
normally so that you don't freakthem out when they tell you
that.
And so these there's there'sjust so much to it.

(43:39):
Understand, we've actually onlybeen talking about behavior
health for about six, 15, 16years now.
Fire service has been aroundsince Ben Franklin.
So we got a long ways to catchup.

SPEAKER_02 (43:50):
I I agree a hundred percent.
I think that what you just saidis I go back to something we
talked earlier about ishumbleness.
When you keep humble, youremember that people don't have
to tell you the stories thatthey give you.
It's so important.
I think that you talked abouthumbleness being one of those
key traits.
I do like humbleness in mymental health counselors who
work with first responders.

(44:11):
You know, and I think that whatyou know, you've talked about a
little bit of different thingshere.
You talked about the pushbackthat you got.
For me personally, if I was likeI was gonna make a joke about, I
guess you're on module number 12about retirement for FBHA.
Maybe that's for you to review.

SPEAKER_01 (44:28):
Well, I mean, uh well, when I say that, we uh we
consult, like I said, uh withfire departments on how to
create behavior health programs.
Because I I estimate probablyless than 5% of any all the
organizations that fire EMSdispatch have any type of
complete behavior healthprogram.
It's nice to have a peer supportteam as well as an EAP program,

(44:50):
but there's so much more to it.
So much more.
And that's that's where we haveto really learn to invest in
that.
And we're not doing that yet.
A lot of organizations are stillonly have peer support teams or
EAP programs.
So, what's the likelihood ofhaving a complete behavioral
health program?
So, like I said, we have a longway to go.
We've come a long way, but wehave a long ways to go.

SPEAKER_02 (45:12):
I agree a hundred percent.
And one of the things that Italk about around here, and I
created this pyramid that talksabout it starts with wellness,
and then you got your peersupport, your clerical support,
then you got the schisms, and soon and so forth until you get to
hospital level of care.
The goal is to keep you on thewellness peer support level so
that there's a lot of support,there's a lot of resources that

(45:33):
are available.
But as you get closer, you alsolike I I put the arrow on the
other side, decreased confidencegoes from the top to the bottom
is when you're starting to wantto hurt yourself, when you start
wanting to accidentallyoverdose, wink wink.
That's harder to talk about.
But when you're like, hey, I'mhaving a hard time because that
call is hard, that's thewellness part.
That's where we need to start.

(45:55):
And that's kind of what I talkabout a lot with.
And I want to start the debatewith you slightly, because I
find that the firefighters, whenI sat around the kitchen table
or I sat around, you know, aftera call, there's three or four of
them just chit-chatting, usuallya team of two to four around
here in Massachusetts for fire.
And they talk about itsometimes.

(46:16):
They're able to not bust toomany balls around that, but they
do talk about it.
And I find that with policebecause you go from one call to
another, and most police, otherthan like high urban areas, are
very much one man shows in theirvehicles.
And that's why I say that maybeit's not as evolved.
So that's my argument for you,but I'm willing to hear yours.

SPEAKER_01 (46:35):
No, I and I I'm a firm believer police have it
worse than the fire servicebecause when you're struggling
with whatever issue is andyou're an officer and you're
driving around in your car, thatthat is just ruminating in your
mind 24-7.
And you have that gun rightthere.
And if you go into thatcognitive disconnect, it's it's

(46:55):
very difficult.
But for police overall, theDepartment of Justice has done a
lot better funding of behavioralhealth for programs for
behavioral health than the fireservice.
I agree.
And that's why I say in thataspect, they're a little farther
ahead than us.
And we look at fire departments,and it's and and I've seen it.

(47:15):
Jeff, we want to bring you infor you know program.
Unfortunately, we have to chargenot a lot.
Our prices are the same forsince day one in 2010.
But since we don't get thefunding, we have to charge
something because our our annualweekend retreat for our family
survivors runs about$20,000 to$25,000.
You know, so fire departmentswill say, Jeff, you know what?

(47:37):
We got to look at our budget.
Well, we we can't cut people.
So we'll have to look attraining.
And training is usually thebiggest one where they start
making cuts.
Well, let's see, we need a hoseline advancement, we need live
fire burns, we need this andthat, behavioral health.
Well, you know, we're good sofar, so let's look at that next
year.
And so it gets cut from thebudget very, very easily.

(48:00):
Whereas it should be separate, aseparate budget item, behavioral
health.
But we don't touch that becausethis is what we earmarked for
training to bring people in forbehavioral health training for
our members.

SPEAKER_02 (48:14):
And I think that that's what you know, you talked
about your modules.
That's exactly what I think isimportant.
I mean, maybe not everyone wantsto go to a wellness visit with a
first responder therapist who'sculturally competent.
But if you start with modulesthat you talk about, managing
stress, managing relationships,because that's, you know, to me,
that's one of the biggeststressors that first responders

(48:35):
face.
And if I know people listeningto this will get it, but I I
when I try to explain tocivilians that, and I'm a
civilian too, I don't try tosteal anything, but when I
explain that 24 on, 24 off, 24on, three days off, and then
going back at it, that's notideal.
That's difficult, and that's alot of stress on a family.

(48:56):
And they don't seem tocomprehend how much that creates
that energy.
Never mind if you had somecrappy or shitty call that night
and that you want to come homeand like your kids like, hey,
daddy, and or mama or whatever,and then you're like in your
head about something.
I think that having thosemodules in a group probably
opens up more conversation, inmy opinion.

SPEAKER_01 (49:18):
Yeah, no, I I I agree with you on that aspect.
Uh it is difficult.
I mean, the different types ofshifts that are out there
nowadays, uh 4896s, you know, sothey're on two days and off
four.
And when you have a departmentlike us that runs about 140,000
calls a year, guess what?
They're up a lot during thenight.
And so that starts breaking downyour sleep deprivation.

(49:40):
Where in fact, in the fireservice, we are starting to see
a gigantic push across the U.S.
of 2472s, 24 year on one day offthree.
We need it.
The sleep, the loss of sleep isabsolutely incredible.
And so, yes, you might bedealing with a lot of stress and

(50:00):
anxiety and other things, butguess what?
If you don't have that sleep,that stress and anxiety is just
magnified 10 times.
And so we're starting to seethat shift in in our ships to
help out not only us, but ourfamilies, like you said, as
well, it which is importantbecause I I laugh at
firefighters when they tell me,you know, I leave everything at

(50:22):
work.
Yeah, really?
Let me ask your loved one aboutthat one or your children.
And uh, you know, there was agreat sign when I moved out here
to Vegas, a big billboard saidthat the only one who will
remember that you worked allthat overtime 20 years ago will
be your children.
And uh and and how accurate thatis, right?
And I'm trying, oh, I'm tryingto get more overtime, you know,

(50:44):
it's and this and that.
Uh well, your your family paysthe price.

SPEAKER_02 (50:48):
Right.
I agree a hundred percent.
I think that that's the stuffthat doesn't get talked about as
much.
And I I will go a call further.
Firefighters are not fire arenot firefighting anymore,
they're mostly doing medicals.
And some I know some departmentshave like a dedicated paramedic
EMT type of travel, but from themost part, and around here in

(51:10):
Massachusetts in particular,you're doing a lot of medicals
and medicals at two, threeo'clock in the morning.
And my favorite one is peoplewell, just sleep when you get
home.
Oh, yeah, because I can turn itoff like that.
Right.
You know, I worked at a crisisteam and it's not the same in an
emergency room.
And I get home at three o'clockor five o'clock in the morning.
And like people like my thenwife would say, like, it's seven

(51:34):
o'clock, what are you doing up?
I worked a crisis team for 12hours.
I my mind is still racing.
I need to chill, and this is howI need to do it.
It's not like you can just go,all right, I left it at the door
and go on YouTube to see thatone.

SPEAKER_01 (51:50):
Absolutely, and that that's it's so accurate.
Uh, especially I I travel a lotand I travel between different
time zones.
Yeah.
You know, I get home at 9:30 inmy time here in Vegas, yet it's
12:30 where I just left afterthree days out in the East
Coast, and your body's not readyto sleep.
And so you toss and turn, andit's the same thing with first

(52:11):
responders.
You know, you just don't go homeand sleep well that next day.
It's it's it's a big issue.
So, you know, we did top fivewarning signs for our brothers
and sisters.
I interviewed over 600 face toface, and what were their top
five warning signs that theywere struggling with?
Listen and impulsiveness, anger,isolation, loss of confidence

(52:33):
and skills and abilities, and ofcourse, sleep deprivation.
And it's it's it's in there in alot of jobs, right?
It's not just there in the firstin the first responder world,
and I and I think society, oneof the worst things are our cell
phones because we're laying inbed and we're reading the before
we go to bed, and it just itactivates all that activity in

(52:53):
our brain.
So it's it's it's a truechallenge for society.

SPEAKER_02 (52:57):
It it's funny because like when I was on call,
it was a whole differentballgame.
I had to have again, I was oncall when we had pagers, if you
remember.
For our youngins, pagers were alittle thing that gave you a
phone number to call back.
But I remember like sleepingnext to me, and then as soon as
I was no longer on call, thatthing would go downstairs where

(53:18):
I can't hear it even if it goesoff.
And I did my cell phone, whowhich is right not next to me
right now, but when I go to bed,it's on a different floor and
it's on silent.
And my girlfriend who you knowalways had her cell phone on
next to her, and she would lookat it before bed.
We had a conversation one day.
I'm like, your sleep's shittybecause of that.

(53:40):
You need to put like the light,it's dangerous, you're paying
attention.
Now you get you know riled upover whatever's on that phone.
It's not good to have thatscreen time.
So, like a lot of guys and a lotof gals that I work with, when I
say leave your phone somewhereelse where you can't reach it
while you're lying in bed, thepeople who actually do it, they
tell me, wow, that'srevolutionary.

(54:01):
I'm like, no, it's just logical.

SPEAKER_01 (54:03):
I I wish I could do that because my my work here in
Vegas is 24-7 in case somefirefighter calls and struggle.
And I still respond to majorfires or major vehicle
accidents.
I'm there to observe my brothersand sisters.
If anyone sees something orstruggles with something, then I
can follow up immediately afterwith them.

(54:24):
So, like I said, I'm I'm stillresponding at two in the morning
to the the big fire and things,and you get back at you know
3:30 and I wake up at five to goto work.
So, what's the chances of megetting any good sleep?
Right.
So, so sleep is it is it'ssomething that we need to
address here in America.

SPEAKER_02 (54:41):
Well, I'm all I can think of when you said you go to
major calls.
I remember years ago, not toolong ago, there was a shooting
in Las Vegas at a concertthinking, oh my god, he must
have been there.

SPEAKER_01 (54:53):
No, I I wasn't.
That was before my time startinghere, but I still deal with
dispatchers and firefightersover there.
I mean, it's it's been eightyears.
It's been eight years already.
That's how fast time flies.
And and I tell people, you know,I firefighters that were there,
they videoed, were videoing theconcert, and then they you hear

(55:14):
the shooting.
And I tell them, if you ever geta chance to see any of those
videos, don't.
Don't yeah, do not see thembecause it is difficult to see
people running for their livesbeing gunned down.
And so I tell them, yeah, welive in this exciting world, you
know.
Oh, we want to see everything,and we got cameras everywhere.
Try not to see these type ofthings because they will stay

(55:38):
with you.

SPEAKER_02 (55:39):
Having done a uh couple of sessions and SISM
after Sandy Hook in uhConnecticut uh myself, I I will
tell you, I don't want to everhear those stories again.
And it's not because I can'thandle it, but it's like it's
hard to process.
And yes, I had a few nights ofnot sleeping after having those
conversations.
I held it while I was with theperson, don't get me wrong.

(56:00):
But at the end of the day, whenI went home, damn did that stay
in my head for a long time, andI wasn't even there.

SPEAKER_01 (56:05):
And I remember, I don't know if you remember Chief
Halstead.
He was Sandy Hook firedepartment.
We would have some greatconversations about like the
anniversaries, how his peoplewere handling, how how were you
taking care of it?
You know, I'm just I get I'malways trying to find out
information, so learn it.
We had some great conversations,and then a few years back he

(56:27):
suffered a heart attack and uhsince passed.
But uh very sincere, honestgentleman who would always talk
to me uh about uh behaviorhealth and taking care of his
people.

SPEAKER_02 (56:39):
And he did a fantastic job after such a
tragedy for his guys, and uh Igive credit a lot, I give a lot
of credit to that chief uh restin peace.
Which brings me to another hardsubject before we kind of like
wrap up here.
There's a lot of data aboutsuicides, and there's a lot of
data missing about suicide.
I'd like to hear more about whatthose numbers say.

(57:00):
I know you work pr mostly withfirefighters, dispatch, and emt
slash paramedics.
Right.
So I'd like to hear more aboutthose.

SPEAKER_01 (57:09):
I I I will tell you that there's no discrimination
in our data.
Doesn't matter if you're careervolunteer, city, suburban,
rural, wildland, military, fire,doesn't matter about the age,
the rank, like I said,volunteer, career, rural, city,
everyone has to be prepared.
Every organization needs to beprepared for these tragic

(57:30):
events.
And you do that by beingproactive.
How do we stop those by beingproactive?
Does that necessarily mean thatyou're going to stop it?
No.
And believe me, uh my my bloodboils when I read articles that
say suicide is 100% preventable.
All that does to me is tell methat we will place the blame on

(57:55):
the family or the friendsbecause they didn't see or they
didn't do something to stopthat.
Right.
But the other thing I alwaystalk about is our our data,
cultural brainwashing is a bigone.
And this applies to our femalefire and EMS.
When we look at our data, we weknow in society that the number

(58:16):
one known reason for females insociety taking their lives, or
excuse me, the number one methodis overdose.
But in our data, by far, thenumber one by two to one is
firearms.
And it makes me think about thiscultural brainwashing for female
fire and EMS dispatch.
Is it because they've been onthose calls and they see they're

(58:36):
99.9999% effective, or is it dothey fall prey to the culture of
brainwashing of how they'resupposed to act in a
male-dominant career?
That not only do they work thatway, but they die that way.
I I I can't prove that.

(58:58):
And so, like I said, there'sjust there's so much.
I mean, the some of the methods,Steve, I don't I don't even know
if I want to even talk aboutsome of the methods.
They are, I mean, they're allhorrific, no doubt.
But the some of them that punishthemselves in such a manner that
it's very, very disturbing.
And I think what was the depthof their pain to do that type of

(59:24):
pain-inflicting suicide methodupon your body, upon your soul.
And these are the things that weneed to address as
organizations.
How are you being proactivewithin your department?

SPEAKER_02 (59:40):
I mean, I don't know what cultural brainwashing
falls, if this falls undercultural brainwashing or not,
what I'm gonna say next.
But, you know, I see that inmany ways.
Women who have to adapt to amale culture and you know, suck
it up buttercup, and what areyou gonna cry?
And there's all these littlethings that are culturally.
Need to be changed in the fireservice as well as the police

(01:00:03):
service.
That's my first thing.
And I think that's a bit ofcultural brainwashing that
occurs.
Let's add another layer.
The old timers, I survived it.
You should survive it too.
And that has to die.
And what I mean by that is Ihave 25-year-olds who call me up
and say, I don't need you fortherapy right now, but I want to
establish a relationship withyou just in case I need it in
the future.

(01:00:24):
And these young guys and younggals are doing it as a
preventive measure on their own.
But they even get shamed forlike, oh, so why the hell do you
see a therapist?
I'm like, why are we doing thiswhen like that's their choice?
It's not a problem.
Is it bothering you?
It doesn't bother you.
They're getting a therapy.

SPEAKER_01 (01:00:42):
And so my my term cultural brainwashing, very
similar, you have a lot of uhthe similarities, but uh I I
look at it this way, and and Ithink society's culturally
brainwashed.
Steve, if I uh I'm going to askyou when you hear the term
firefighter, what words come toyour mind?

SPEAKER_02 (01:00:59):
Brave came to mind right away, and jokingly pillow,
but brave, strong, courageous,heroic.

SPEAKER_01 (01:01:08):
I have two workshops, one for the chaplains
and counselors, the other one'sfor families.
And I asked this question, and II start off the workshops with
it, and I get those same thingsfor 16 years.
In sixteen years, what I haven'theard is well, Jeff, they have
anger issues.
They drink like fish.
Their communications suck.

(01:01:29):
So people are culturallybrainwashed.
Now imagine us putting thisuniform on every day.
How we are supposed to act.
Brave, strong, courageous, givehelp, don't ask for help.
I handle all issues on my own.
I don't want to be the weak linkof the company.
And who expects that?
Our brothers and sisters we workwith, society, the communities

(01:01:50):
we serve, the traditions of thefire and EMS world tell you this
is how you're supposed to act.
And when you're going throughsomething very, very difficult,
either in your personal orprofessional life, and you're
expected to go it alone becausethat's the way it was always
done, that's culturalbrainwashing.
And so these are the things thatI address in our workshops.

SPEAKER_02 (01:02:13):
And I think that that's where we need to make
that cultural shift.
And you know as much as I do,changing a culture is extremely
difficult.

SPEAKER_01 (01:02:22):
Absolutely it is.
Absolutely.
And that's why I say we've onlybeen doing this 15 years.
We've come a long way, have along way still to go.

SPEAKER_02 (01:02:30):
And I really give a lot of credit to you and people
who have made the point oftalking about mental health.
Talking about, you know, I havea few people who've come on who
have talked about their ownmental health issues while they
were in the service and talkedabout it openly.
I think that we're starting tosee that shift that people
accept that yes, it is hard andsometimes it's difficult.

(01:02:51):
And no one comes into this jobto say, I want to be like really
fucked up when I leave here.
No, they come in because theywant to help people, they want
to be supportive.
And when you say that, that'salso what probably people missed
in their own lives.
They didn't get enough support.
And that's what we need to beable to be culturally able to
shift to give that support andnot shame it.

(01:03:11):
How many guys have I seen in thepolice particularly say, So are
you going to take my gun nowthat I'm in therapy?
And I'm like, why would I takeyour gun?
Is there a reason I should betaking?
No, but that's what I heard.
And I'm like, no, that's notexactly how that works.
I'm not concerned about your gunright now.
You give me concern for yourgun, we'll have a different
conversation.

(01:03:32):
But I think that plays a factortoo, and that's the fear that
they also like you talk aboutcultural brainwashing.
There's a fear that permeatesthroughout a lot of departments.
It's changing, but it's notcompletely changed.

SPEAKER_01 (01:03:44):
Yeah, but and but that's they're basing all that
on that's what really happened.
If you went and sought somepsychiatric help, they took your
gun away, which means your job.
And so that's why they withheldthat type of going to seek that
type of help.
I have, you know, I haveresources all over, especially
here in Vegas, too, that thatthat are not associated with the

(01:04:07):
health insurance and their EAP.
Maybe they just want to go paycash because they don't want
anyone to know.
And so I have those resources ofcounselors that are not on our
EAP panel.
And and that's important.
So I think it's very easy forevery department in America,
whether it's a volunteer, and Iknow it's tough.
The only thing I found good outof COVID was it opened up

(01:04:30):
telehealth.
So you can sit there in Bostonand talk to someone in
Springfield from the comforts ofyour home.
And we're now actually startingto see where those licenses can
now transcend across state lineswithout going through or jumping
all the hoops.
So we're opening and expandingthat aspect, which is
tremendous.

(01:04:51):
But like I said, some peoplejust don't want anyone to know.
So they'll go and seek it out ontheir own, which which which is
fine because they're they'regetting help.
And that's the bottom line.
Right.
You're looking for help, you'reasking for help.
And uh so we're making progress,no doubt, no doubt about it,
Steve.

SPEAKER_02 (01:05:11):
I think that you know, as January comes along,
we're gonna have InterstateCompact that does for
particularly mental health, theLPCs, the LMHCs, the LCMHCs.
You've seen that in the socialwork realm.
I'm gonna call out my own statein Massachusetts, I'm gonna call
out California.
You are not part of theinterstate compact, and I don't
understand why.

(01:05:31):
I did telehealth before it wascool.
I was doing it with a companywhere we didn't have those laws.
It was like the wild, wild west.
So I saw people from allcontinents and all 50 states.
And when you're in the middle ofSouth Dakota, it's hard to find
a therapist that doesn't knoweveryone.

SPEAKER_01 (01:05:49):
Well, exactly.
So exactly.
It's hard to hard to find townsin there in those areas.

SPEAKER_02 (01:05:54):
Like that that woman was so happy that I didn't know
her history, I didn't have anypreconceived notions, and
frankly, I didn't know anythingabout South Dakota.
So what do I care?
And that there's a lot of thatwith the interstate compact
that's opening up, that's reallyimportant.
And telehealth has been a bighelp for a whole lot of my guys
who check on like I've got atleast five or six from that 10

(01:06:16):
years ago that are still seeingme off and on because of that.

SPEAKER_01 (01:06:20):
So and I want to I I I like what I like what you said
about preconceived notions.
Uh, I will and people always askme, Jeff, what was the greatest
thing you've learned about doingwhat you're doing?
I said, I I found out a lotabout myself, meaning the
greatest thing I've learned isthat I've learned not to judge
others because I've never walkedin your footsteps.
I have no idea what your historyis, but I'm glad that you've

(01:06:43):
called and reached out for help.
You will not be judged by me.

SPEAKER_02 (01:06:47):
Well, on that note, Jeff, I'm gonna like thank you
because we've but we're about anhour in.

SPEAKER_01 (01:06:52):
Okay.
All right.
It goes quick, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_02 (01:06:55):
Well, I'm gonna send this to you too.
You want to come back anytime.
I know you're working on acouple of projects, and I don't
know how many of them arepublic, so I'm just gonna keep
that to myself.
But when you have thoseprojects, please come back on.
I love their conversation.
I like that we disagreed and wehad a good healthy debate.
And I think that I like tomonitor, like I like to model

(01:07:15):
people that we can have a debateand we're still liking each
other, and there's nothing wrongwith that, and we need to learn
that.

SPEAKER_01 (01:07:22):
Absolutely.
Absolutely amateur that, sir.
I was just gonna say it's beenan honor, and I I actually do
look forward to coming back on.

SPEAKER_02 (01:07:30):
Well, and long term, I'm gonna I want you to plug
whatever you want to plug,number one, but more
importantly, if you ever needresources, it's not that I have
the greatest resources in theworld, but my group of behind
the badge and beyond, we do havevetted therapists that are
available.
So if you ever need somethingfrom me, need anything from
behind the behind the badge, letme know.
I will make you put you incontact with the right people.

SPEAKER_01 (01:07:53):
Absolutely.
I will I will take you up onthat.

SPEAKER_02 (01:07:56):
All right, I'm right there for you.
And that's also voluntary.
There's no that's but don't tellanyone because I don't want to
be thanked for it.

SPEAKER_01 (01:08:03):
So uh okay, then I won't thank you.
All right, thank you.
I'll just smile I'll just smileat you and shake my head.

SPEAKER_02 (01:08:10):
See now now we get along great now.
But tell tell me more about umwhat's the website?
Where can people find the whitepaper, stuff like that?

SPEAKER_01 (01:08:18):
Yeah, it's uh they all they actually have to do is
Google Firefighter BehavioralHealth Alliance.
Uh but our webpage, of course,www.ffb isn't bravoha.org.
And under the resource tab,you'll you'll see PTSD versus
moral injury.
Just click on that and you candownload the white paper for
free.
But I think, like you said, youhad a link you can put that on

(01:08:41):
as well.
And and join us on Facebook too.
You know, we we do a lot ofthings.
I do some videos on I just didone the other day uh titled it,
Jeez, isn't that awful?
Um something blah.
Yeah, this is what happens whenyou turn 64 and a half.
Perceived blessings versus trueblessings.
What a perceived blessing isversus what a true blessing is.

(01:09:03):
So uh, like I said, they canfollow us on Facebook as well.

SPEAKER_02 (01:09:06):
Well, I'm gonna put all that.
You are welcome anytime.
And personally, from me to you,I truly enjoyed this.
I know it's gonna be on thepodcast.
Obviously, it's not so personal,but from the bottom of my heart,
if you ever need anything, justreach out.
I'll put you in the rightdirection around here, and I
appreciate you.

SPEAKER_01 (01:09:23):
And and likewise, you ever need uh you know, just
chat something off, you know howto get hold of me.

SPEAKER_02 (01:09:28):
Okay.
Now I have your number, soyou're you're screwed, man.

SPEAKER_01 (01:09:32):
But I'm sorry, I I put I put that on block already.

SPEAKER_02 (01:09:35):
No.
Thank you.
That's good.
That's what you gotta do withme.
Ask everyone who knows me or notknow me.
But anyway, thank you very much.
And I want to thank our audiencefor episode through 239 and
looking forward to the nextepisode.
So thank you guys.

SPEAKER_00 (01:09:50):
Please like, subscribe, and follow this
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A glowing review is alwayshelpful.
And as a reminder, this podcastis for informational,
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If you're struggling with amental health or substance abuse
issue, please reach out to theprofessional counselor for
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If you are in a mental healthcrisis, 988 for assistance.

(01:10:14):
This number is available in theUnited States and Canada.