May 20, 2026 • 32 mins
A “mental health call” rarely looks like a calm conversation in a quiet office. It looks like uncertainty, pressure, split-second decisions, and a room full of risk factors that do not fit neatly into a checklist. I sit down with Joe Smarro, former Marine and former San Antonio Police Department officer who spent 11 years full-time on a mental health unit, to unpack what actually works when the goal is simple and urgent: keep everyone safe and lower the temperature fast.
Joe shares how Crisis Intervention Training (CIT) changed the way he saw policing, why de-escalation and communication skills matter as much as tactics, and what happens when departments move from a small voluntary approach to broader training expectations. We also talk about the real stigma that shows up inside agencies, including the “hug-a-thug” pushback that often greets jail diversion and mental health initiatives, and why many of the loudest critics have personal stories they have never been given space to name.
We go deeper into the intersection of public safety and behavioral health care. Joe explains why sending clinicians alone to volatile crises can create safety problems when scenes involve drugs, co-occurring disorders, and unpredictable behavior, and why the better answer is collaboration with clear lanes. Along the way, we connect this work to leadership in the private sector, challenging belief systems, and Joe’s core principle of radical ownership, because resilience is not just about surviving hard moments, it is about choosing what you do next.
If you care about first responder mental health, police de-escalation, crisis response, and practical leadership under stress, hit play, then subscribe, share this with someone on your team, and leave a review so more people can find the show.
To follow or reach Joe, here are his links:
https://solutionpointplus.com/
https://joesmarro.com/
https://www.instagram.com/joesmarro
https://www.linkedin.com/in/joesmarro/
We are a first responder owned company looking to get first responders in the best mental shape.
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Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_00 (00:01):
Welcome to Resilience Development in Action
with Steve Bisson.
This is the podcast dedicated tofirst responder mental health,
helping police, fire, EMS,dispatchers, and paramedics
create better growthenvironments for themselves and
their teams.
Let's get started.
SPEAKER_02 (00:29):
Well, hi everyone, and welcome to Resilience
Development in Action.
I'm so happy to have you here,but more importantly, I've got
someone I heard speak.
And of course, you know, westart interviews and we start
chatting and chatting.
I'm like, this is all goodstuff.
I've got to record it.
But when you really arepersonable, and I really jo
enjoyed him presenting, what,about a month ago, a month and a
(00:50):
half ago around here?
And I was happy to have him on.
So, and of course, now I'm gonnaI'm putting you on the spot.
I'm gonna pronounce your lastname properly.
I'm gonna screw it up anyway,but that's okay.
I always say to people, it's mysecond language, I'll live with
myself.
Joe Smorrow.
Perfect, Steve.
You nailed it.
Welcome to ResilienceDevelopment in Action.
SPEAKER_01 (01:10):
Thank you, brother.
Super stoked to be here, and Iappreciate you sharing your
audience with me.
So yeah, I can't I can't wait todive in and see what we we're
gonna talk about.
SPEAKER_02 (01:18):
I I think that we're we're two P's in a pot in some
way.
I know I'm come from thecivilian side, but I I
definitely felt that we had agood connection because we're
gonna talk about a lot of stuffthat's very interesting to me
and working on the stigma, notonly from the mental health
perspective, but the stigmawithin a police department and
talking about mental health,particularly units.
(01:39):
I can't wait to talk about that.
But before we go there, I knowthat you know we we kind of met.
I didn't go see bother youbecause I knew you had a lot on
your plate, but I text you andwe we we exchanged a few times.
But how about you tell myaudience a little bit more about
yourself?
SPEAKER_01 (01:54):
Yeah, so from New York originally, I joined the
Marine Corps straight out ofhigh school for a specific
reason that maybe will come uplater, and did two combat tours
to Afghanistan and Iraq, andthen got out, moved to South
Texas, where I currently residestill, and joined the San
Antonio Police Department, spentuh 15 years with SAPD, and my
(02:17):
last 11 were full time on themental health unit.
And then I voluntarily resignedin 2020 because I started my
company back in 2017, but itreally was just as a side
hustle.
You know, a lot of cops work alot of overtime to make some
money, and in my case, it was topay a lot of child support.
And so, yeah, I wanted to makemoney doing something I actually
(02:38):
enjoyed.
And so training and teachingaround mental health was
something I'm very passionateabout.
And so my business partner,Jesse, best friend, and I
started this, and we had threeyears of traction and it was
going well.
And then 2020 happened, COVIDshuts down the world, but I'm
miserable as a cop.
I love policing, I love theprofession, I love mental health
(02:59):
unit, like it truly saved mylife.
And I really don't enjoy workingunder just horrible leadership.
And so I fought it for about 18months and realized like the
system is too big, can't doanything about it.
And so instead of just showingup and complaining every day,
uh, my therapist encouraged meto resign and focus on my
(03:20):
business full time.
And I was terrified, but I didit.
And it was very scary, but itwas one of the greatest
professional decisions I've evermade.
And now we're coming up on sixyears full time with no safety
net of running a business that'sbeen thriving and doing really
well, and super stoked.
So, Solution Point Plus, currentCEO of that.
And we are, we say internationalbecause we work in Canada as
(03:43):
well as the US, but we're atraining and consulting firm
that operates at theintersection of public safety
and behavioral health care.
And it has expanded beyond thatas well to where now we're in
public transit, the privatesector.
We really work with people whowork with people, and uh it's
been great.
And so super blessed to be inthe position I'm in.
Wrote a couple books, featuredin a documentary, gave a TEDx
(04:06):
talk, and now I do a bunch ofkeynotes and conference seminars
around the country.
So that's the high-levelintroduction, Steve.
And we can go as deep as youwant in any of that, but yeah,
pretty diverse experience and ahopeful optimist.
SPEAKER_02 (04:21):
Well, let me start with the same thing.
There's a couple of things thatI want to mention.
Thank you for serving.
I appreciate it.
As a Canadian who's neverserved, I truly respect that.
My dad was a huge armed forcesguy, and I always joke around
that you can serve in Canada orthe US, but we work so hand in
hand most of the time that itmight as well be the same exact
people.
(04:41):
Um thank you for serving, reallyappreciate it.
And two tours is in Iran andAfghanistan.
I have 400 questions just onthat.
I Iraq.
You said Iran.
I have not been to Iran.
Iraq, sorry, but sorry, sorry,that's the times, the times.
SPEAKER_01 (04:56):
That's current events.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (04:58):
Yeah.
Okay.
Well, yeah, well, we might mightbe there soon enough, but let's
not go into politicizing that.
One of the things that youmentioned that you said you're,
you know, you started off in thelaw enforcement, the mental
health world, and a little bitof what you've done.
I I want to, I we can gochronologically if you wish, but
the first thing I want tomention is that when you said
the private sector, one of thethings I find is I I work what
(05:19):
70, 75% of the time with firstresponders, police, fire, empty
dispatch.
And I have a lot of army, airforce, marines right now.
That's what I have.
But yeah, I've worked with theCoast Guard and I worked with
the Navy.
But I find that people in theprivate sector, particularly in
the C suite, and I don't likethat word, but I'm gonna use it,
(05:39):
they definitely need this typeof truthfulness that comes from
you.
I mean, if I will link the TEDTalk, the X talk, and everything
else, and definitely the book.
But what I think that you justsaid was important because I
think that the private sectoractually needs the type of
brutal honesty for lack of abetter word that we offer
because of our experience withthe mental health field and
(06:02):
particularly in your case withthe law enforcement and the
military.
SPEAKER_01 (06:06):
Yeah, and it's it's it's taken me a while to, I
think, understand or realizethis, and probably rooted from a
place of insecurity when, youknow, my experience from the
military into policing, I didn'treally understand how it was
going to translate into theprivate sector.
And so when I started, I didn'tgo to college until I was
already in my early 30s, but Iwas still a cop and I thought
that I was gonna stay a cop anddo 35 years.
(06:28):
And so I got my bachelor's incriminal justice, but then
became curious and so started mymaster's degree in
organizational psychology.
And so then I was like, allright, well, I want to
understand this better.
Well, then I started thebusiness and stopped going to
school.
And my goal is like any goodentrepreneur is to never finish
(06:49):
formal education.
And it's kind of just our like,ah, to the system.
Because again, I don't wantpeople to mistake that.
If you are a social worker, yes,for sure, go to school and do
all the things.
But I just think that a lot ofthe universities in our country,
it's it's a it's just a moneygrab for things that people are
never going to use.
And you're not really gainingthe experience you need unless
(07:11):
you're a specialty doctor,nurse, lawyer, something like
that.
So I realized for me, it was itwas how can I get real world
experience?
And learning from the fact oflike, how, how do the lessons
that I learned in policing,specifically on a mental health
unit, going to people's homes,going into the street, going
into the community, and reallyhaving to learn how to
(07:34):
effectively navigate this, youknow, crisis that's a pretty
chaotic, complex situation, anddoing that over and over and
over and getting really good atit, to then saying, like, okay,
well, there are a lot of peoplerunning these businesses and
these companies that feel stressand that are making difficult
decisions, usually to deal withmargins, numbers, people, staff
(07:55):
processes, policies, things likethat.
And for them, not to minimizeit, but it feels very stressful.
But then you take somebody thathas a lot of real world
experience of life and deathlevels of stress, and you
recognize that like there's alot of patterns and behavior,
and there's a way to kind ofcalm that very chaotic
(08:16):
situation.
And so the skills developedreally do transfer and translate
really well into the corporateside.
And so honestly, that's why Iwrote the second book.
So my first book is is titledUnarmed, and it's de-escalation
techniques to cultivate courage,compassion, and connection.
So, with that book, it was morefor the public safety side,
although non-first respondershave read it and gotten a lot
(08:37):
out of it because it's a lotabout communication and like
negotiation tactics.
The second book, which is righthere, boom, 12 laws of
maximizing the human experience.
This was more of like theleadership series, and it's slow
and low is the tagline.
And then someone once referredto me as a mental maverick, and
I was like, that's kind of sexy.
And so I just took that titleand I called this the Mental
(08:59):
Mavericks playbook.
And it really is just leadershiptechniques cultivated from like
real-world experience in thestreets of San Antonio and doing
this job for over a decade, youknow, thousands and over 8,000
contacts of people and variouslevels of crises and effectively
navigating and de-escalatingthose without using force.
(09:20):
And so I turned that into like a12 laws leadership principles
book to get traction in thecorporate side.
And so it's it's been exciting,man.
But yes, your points are spoton, and my narrow-mindedness
needed to be expanded, believingthat people everywhere could
benefit from the skills thatI've developed.
SPEAKER_02 (09:37):
I'm going to go back to when you spoke, and I think I
care I'm going to paraphrasewhat you said.
Sure.
But what you said is I neverwant to be the smartest person
in the room.
Not quite good words, butsomething to that effect.
And I think that that's what youknow, people in the private
sector, particularly in theC-suite, what I explain is that
they're used to being thesmartest person in the room, and
they're usually used to havingpeople say yes, yes, yes, yes.
(10:00):
Well, as a therapist, I come inas an experience of like, nah,
that's kind of screwed up, orno, this is wrong.
And that raw honesty that youtalk about that we need in the
streets as a police officer, asa mental health counselor,
whatever the case may be, isvery beneficial in the corporate
world because they're not usedto having someone going, Really?
That's what your best idea is.
Or and I I can't think of anexample right now, but the point
(10:23):
is, I think that that's why ittransforms.
I'm a child and familyspecialist.
If you told me I'd be workingwith cops and firefighters, I
would have said you're crazy 20years ago.
And today I can't see myselfdoing anything else.
But that doesn't mean in 10years I'm not working with the
elderly or something becauseI've developed passion.
I always think thatopportunities come from our
(10:44):
situations, and you had faced alot of the mental health stuff
in the community, and I thinkthat that plays a huge factor.
I think the also the you know, alittle bit of what I we talked
about pre-interview, but I'mgonna kind of ask you more
information.
You know, when I started 2006,the jail diversion program in
Framingham, Massachusetts, abouthalf those cops would call me
(11:05):
the hug a thug program.
And I know you did kind of thesame thing down in San Antonio.
I'm comparing apples todifferent types of apples, so I
think it's very similar, but Iknow you face similar issues.
How did that come from a mentalhealth perspective?
I was under turf, so I can kindof back off and I'll personalize
that.
Well, you're a cop, and othercops saying that you're the thug
hug a thug program probably hasa different meaning to you.
(11:33):
Just a quick break, guys.
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(11:55):
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Now, right back to the episode.
SPEAKER_01 (12:33):
Yeah.
Yeah, the the challenges are thesame.
And San Antonio started theircrisis intervention training
program before I was even on thejob.
So I didn't get on until 2005.
In 2002, is when they reallystarted their first like jail
diversion initiative.
And Houston kind of spearheadedfor all of Texas.
They're they're the largest cityin Texas, they're twice of
(12:55):
everything of San Antonio.
And so they really pioneeredwhat was happening.
Then San Antonio learned fromHouston and then was like, all
right, we're gonna adopt themodel and change it a bit to fit
our community here.
And when I got on in 2005, itstill wasn't part of the
training academy.
And so our police academy waseight months long.
There's no discussion of mentalhealth, no CIT program.
(13:16):
And then it wasn't, I wentthrough the CIT training in
2007.
And I will tell you that it wasone of those trainings where I
went in, like, you know, alittle skeptical, unsure, like,
what is this about?
And I left there, like, whoa,this to me is really exciting
because it gave me like a newperspective on what was possible
in policing.
And it wasn't just about, youknow, like the us versus them,
(13:39):
the bad guys.
It was like, no, here's a realopportunity where we can connect
with people and maybe, you know,kind of get them back on their
feet or introduce them into aresource they didn't know
existed before.
Maybe we could, you know,improve their continuity of care
and give them a chancepost-discharge instead of just a
revolving door.
And so CIT really opened myeyes.
And then we started a pilotprogram in 2009, and it was a
(14:03):
six-month trial of let's see ifthis mental health unit can get
stood up.
Uh, Nami was a big advocate.
The two original officers, Ernieand Willie, presented it with
the chief's approval, and theyjust did a whole bunch of like
proof, proof of concept, data,data, data, relieving officers
back to uh in duty, not usingforce, a bunch of touch points
(14:23):
and contacts, working closelywith the stakeholders and the
community, and the proof wasthere.
And then when it actually becamea unit, is when they opened it
up to the department.
And this is a department of2,460 officers.
And so I'm not gonna say it wascompetitive as in 2,000 cops
wanted to do it.
That would be a massiveembellishment.
But there were definitely ahandful of people that wanted
(14:44):
it.
Well, several.
I mean, there's probably 50 to100 cops that were like, I'm
interested in that.
I was very fortunate to getselected.
And so when we actually became,well, they called it a detail
because there was only four ofus, but we were actually a
full-time unit and full-time notas in 24-7, but full-time in
that, that's all we did.
We don't take robbery calls.
(15:05):
I'm not taking, you know,shoplifter calls.
100% of my case, my call outswere mental health related.
So that was interesting.
Then from CIT international,this standard of like, you know,
15 to 25% of your of everydepartment should be CIT trained
and it should be voluntary.
We we hit that mark and that waspretty easy.
(15:27):
But then the chief was like,nope, we're gonna do 100%.
That was when we saw a hugeshift.
So I am a I am uh advocate of100% training and CIT
international is not.
And so uh for me, it's I get theidea that this should be for
people that want to do it, but Ialso push back on the fact that
(15:50):
unless you're a cop, that when adispatch calls your number, you
can say no thanks.
What else do you have on themenu?
Which is not a reality anywhere.
You have to respond to the callsyou're dispatched to.
And so you should not get tochoose how trained you are.
And if we know that there'svarying degrees of research out
there, but let's just goconservative and say 35% of
(16:12):
every 911 call has like a mentalhealth nexus to it.
Officers need to be trained.
And all it really is, is a40-hour CIT program, if it's
done well, it's advancedcommunication techniques,
helping you understand theresources that exist in your
community, and then having yougiving you a better
understanding of what variousmental illness and serious
(16:33):
mental illnesses are out thereand how to interact with those
people.
Why is that such a bad thing tome?
And so for me, I thought it wasa great idea.
The problem was we werecranking.
And so now we're having to dolike two 40-hour schools a month
for two years.
And I heard all these officerscome in, you know, the older
officers, the salty, come injust really pissed off.
(16:55):
And they would say things onMonday morning like, Joe, I
don't believe in this hug-a-thugcrap.
This is not police work.
I'd rather retire than comehere.
And I'm like, all right, cool,man.
Like, I think your name tent'sright over there.
Like, go find your seat.
I'm glad you're here.
And, you know, they were reallypissed off about it.
But what was super interestingto me, and again, I don't want
to, you know, try to embellishanything.
(17:17):
I I really believe that I'll goseven out of ten.
The the officers that came inmost pissed off about being
forced to be there, right?
Because cops don't like to bemandated to do anything.
Seven out of ten times the onesthat were vocal on Monday, angry
about it on Friday, would likesneak up to us and make sure no
one's looking, and they'd belike, hey man, that was actually
(17:39):
really good.
Or, hey, I gotta be honest, thereason that I was so frustrated
is because my son has bipolar,or my wife is diagnosed with
this, or my family.
So they had some type ofpersonal connection and the
system and their mind let themdown.
So now they're like anti-allthings mental health, plus their
stigma.
(17:59):
I don't want people to know Ihave mental health in my family.
But then you get people like meand other officers up there just
like, yeah, and I'm diagnosedwith mental illness, and I'm in
treatment.
And, you know, and so when youbecome an internal champion and
start really sharing your ownstory, people start to buy into
it.
And so our program really wasgreat.
And we we converted a lot ofpeople that, if we left it
voluntary, would have never cameto the training in the first
(18:22):
place.
And so now that, you know,through our company, it's one of
the it's the least training weoffer now because CIT is just so
like you can grab it off a tree,you can download PowerPoints
offline, it's free everywhere.
And so we don't get hired to dothat as much anymore, which is
unfortunate, but also it's justthe way of the world.
But when we do, I love itbecause I love we still get
(18:43):
those naysayers that are like, Idon't want to do this.
And I'm like, love it.
We'll talk on Friday.
And they're like, Will you be mybest friend?
Oh my God, this is amazing.
I'm like, yeah, man, like it'sif you could just stay
open-minded, you'd be amazed atwhat would happen.
So we went through those growingpains.
And now that the units likefully running.
I mean, they've got over 40,it's 24-7, you know, embedded
(19:04):
clinicians.
It's it's a full operation atthis point.
But yeah, it's it's been a greatride.
SPEAKER_02 (19:09):
You talk about open-mindedness, I think that
that's part of it.
I'm part of a CIT trainingprogram myself.
I do the mental health arch,surprise, surprise.
And what what I find, I evenasked the guys, I'm like, how
many of you really are here?
Because you had to.
And sometimes people have the brthe you know, the ball stuff or
the ovarian fortitude to puttheir hands up.
(19:32):
But when I do that, I'm like,look, I'm not gonna promise I'm
gonna change your life, but I'mgonna give you real life
examples that I faced.
And hopefully you can relate toone or two.
And even if you think I'm crazy,come afterwards and tell me,
hey, you know what?
You're crazy.
You know how many times peoplecame in and told me I was crazy
afterwards?
Zero.
unknown (19:49):
No.
SPEAKER_02 (19:50):
They're like, Oh man, I didn't know you guys
understood that part.
And I'm like, look, you're gonnaface a mental health call,
whether you like it or not.
If you think that you're not,then you should give up policing
right away and you know go dosomething else.
But you're gonna face mentalhealth problems there too, no
matter where you end up.
So either you learn about thisor you look like an idiot.
And I didn't say that in frontof everyone, I privately said
(20:11):
that, and they all related tothat because it was a direct
statement, but it was also true.
I think the open-mindednesscomes not only because of lived
experience, but when you callabout a call XYZ, oh shoot, that
was like the call I went to, orthis happened at this call, but
I relate to that.
And then I think that that'swhat opened a whole lot of
minds.
I don't know if that's yourexperience.
And I know I was seen as themental health guy who's a
(20:32):
civilian who doesn't knowanything, which is fine.
I'm okay with that role.
But when you come from a policeperspective, so a veteran who
served and brings that stuff, Ithink that's what opens a lot of
people's minds, especially onthe CIT stuff.
SPEAKER_01 (20:47):
Yeah, yeah.
I've been very fortunate to beable to convert a lot of people,
a lot of naysayers.
And it's, you know, one of ourcompany slogans is facts tell
and story sell.
Yes, our training isevidence-based.
Yes, it's trauma-informed, yes,we understand all the nuance.
Yes, we are familiar with theDSM five and diagnostics.
No, we are not diagnosinganybody.
And this is why, like in thelast three years, our largest
(21:09):
revenue driver has actually beentraining clinicians and behavior
health workers and socialworkers and licensed therapists
if they're doing crisis work.
Because you can have thegreatest social work degree from
the greatest social workuniversity, but you're you're
you're probably, and some arestarting to do this, but it's
still very rare.
But you're not learning aboutcrisis work and you're not
(21:30):
learning about safety andtactics, and you're not learning
about how to go into someone'shome.
And you're not like these aren'tpeople that are making
appointments to come into youroffice in a controlled
environment to talk to youabout, you know, their trauma.
These are very, very complexsituations.
And this is the problem withcommunity a lot, not a lot, but
many advocates that are antipolice responding to mental
(21:52):
health is like we need police tostop going to mental health
calls because they bring a gunto the call.
And this is how shootings arehappening.
We just need therapy.
To respond to calls.
And it's like, yeah, you couldtry that until you realize that
a lot of these calls have adrug-induced component to it.
They're, they've gotco-occurring disorders.
They're very complex.
And I'm not saying that socialworkers and therapists aren't
(22:12):
capable.
I'm just saying they're notequipped to keep themselves
safe.
And so it's an and both from mypoint of view, and my opinion is
that like both can be reallyeffective and both should be
working together.
You know, and everyone has theirlane to stay in.
But there's no therapist that'sresponding to a community call
where someone's in crisis andthey're going to show up there
(22:33):
and start running through anassessment protocol doing a
questionnaire to diagnosesomebody.
That's not the time and placefor it.
We're just trying to minimizethe situation.
SPEAKER_02 (22:44):
I'm not doing that in a crisis.
I'm trying to solve it in fiveto ten minutes.
SPEAKER_01 (22:48):
Yes.
How can I keep everyone safe?
How can I navigate you to thenext level of care?
Is that hospitalization?
Is that a referral and make sureno one's going to get hurt when
I leave?
Like that's really what it is.
And do I have the skills and theconfidence and the competence to
know what I'm looking at, knowwhat I'm dealing with, and then
know how to adapt to theenvironment so that I'm not
(23:10):
escalating the situation andmaking it worse.
And that's where a lot of that'swhere a lot of our training sits
is look, I get you went to a lotof school and paid money and you
understand diagnostic criteria.
That's not what you're going todo in crisis context.
So we're here to teach you abouthuman behavior.
And when someone is irate, whensomeone is punching holes in
(23:30):
cheatrock, when someone'sthrowing things, how can we
de-escalate that withoutthreatening them and screaming
and barking orders and runningaway?
So that's that's the kind of thenuance between those two things.
And again, we've been superblessed, even with them.
You know, not all.
I don't like general statements,but I get that that's how the
world kind of operatessometimes.
(23:52):
But a lot of therapists, socialworkers, behavior health types
tend to lean a certain way.
And when we come in as formerMarines, combat deployed, former
police officers, and we're goingto talk to you about mental
health.
There's a lot of people thathave bias just from our
introduction of like, what theheck are these dudes going to
talk to me about when they're inthe military and they were cops?
(24:15):
They're going to teach me aboutmental health.
And we've had people likethey'll tell us or they'll put
it in the survey feedback ofjust when I saw your bios, I was
kind of tuned out because Idon't like you guys.
Like, I don't like the police.
I don't, I don't like themilitary.
I don't, and and but then I whatI do appreciate is the ones that
are willing to own that theyhave their own bias, that they
(24:37):
were falling into thestereotypes of things, and that
by the end of it, they werelike, you know what?
This was actually really good.
And you guys opened my mind andtaught me things that I didn't
realize or know.
And so thank you.
But there's some that are justso closed off because it's like,
oh, you guys were cops, I'm notgonna listen to anything.
And that's an unfortunate way toexist, in my opinion.
With love.
SPEAKER_02 (24:58):
Yeah, well, I agree.
Oh, come on, man, don't do that.
I'm gonna lose my audience now.
If you didn't see you, if you'renot on on video, he just made a
heart with his fingers.
So just why I make sure everyoneknows that would happen.
I'll tell you what I said in atraining with a very I'm not
gonna share.
I people have heard this.
So on uh I was doing a trainingfor a hospital around here
(25:18):
webinar, and they asked me,What's the one thing you should
know about police officers?
What should we know about theirtr how to treat them?
This is how I say so.
If I see a person who's breakinginto a car who happens to be
black, and I say, All blackpeople scare steal cars, you
would be up my uh my butt in twoand a half seconds.
How difficult, how this andthat, and and you would be
(25:39):
right.
So if a cop shoots someone in avery wrong way in Minnesota, for
example, why is the cop in SanAntonio, Texas, or Medway,
Massachusetts, suddenly a jerk?
Is that fair?
But that's how you treat it.
So you want us to treat you asindividuals and want to treat
everyone like individuals, yougotta do the same thing with the
law enforcement people.
(25:59):
Yeah, there's gonna be jerks,but guess what?
There's jerk therapists, there'sjerk uh everything that you can
think of in a job.
So stop saying that you're notdoing exactly what you tell us
not to do.
And that's usually that's kindof the important message there.
SPEAKER_01 (26:13):
But well, yeah, and and cops are not immune from
that either, Steve, of what youjust said.
And it's frustrating for me whenthe same because we they'll do
the same thing, right?
Like, I remember it was severalyears ago, but like it was in in
Denver, and there were twoofficers in a Starbucks getting
a coffee, and one of thecustomers was like, Oh my god,
they're scaring me.
And the Starbucks employee askedthe officers to leave because
they were scaring the patrons.
(26:35):
There were cops in Texas thatare like, I'm not never going to
Starbucks again.
And I'm like, why?
Like, just because one employeeat that place of business in
Denver did something stupid, nowyou're boycotting all of
Starbucks.
Like, do you realize how stupidthis is?
Like, we complain about the samething, but yet we're gonna take
part in it.
And it's like, to me, that'swhere I get really curious about
human behavior and how we whathow we become the sheep, as they
(26:58):
say, and we follow the crowd andwe follow, you know, you become
what you consume.
And you know, it's but this iswhere again for me, it just
becomes so fascinating.
People will often say, like,well, it's judgment.
I'm like, no, it really isn'tjudgment.
It really, I'm fascinated andI'm curious of why we believe
the things we believe, why we dothe things we do, why we consume
(27:20):
what we consume, all of it, likeevery level, because it drives
all of our behavior and ourbeliefs.
And but yeah, no one's reallyimmune from that until they're
aware that they do it, and thenthey become, okay, I don't want
to do that anymore.
Which is why for me, truly, zerojudgment.
Like, yeah, if you did somehorrible thing in your past,
cool, I think you're redeemable.
And if you're willing to work onit and learn to forgive yourself
(27:41):
and do the hard work, because Irealize my life, the things I've
done, the choices I've made, themistakes I've made, where I came
from, those are all excuses.
I could use that and wear aflavor of flavor size clock of
victim badge of woe is me.
Or I can be like, wait a minute,I think I am the one that
continues to make these stupidchoices.
I should probably address why Ikeep doing this.
(28:02):
Why do I sabotage so much?
I'm gonna go get a therapist andthen never leave.
Um, and 15 years later, here weare.
So, yeah, shout out to all thetherapists doing the good work
out there.
But yeah, it's it's just to me,it's I've learned so much
through my own treatment andhealing journey that that has
allowed me to project out awhole bunch of you know open
space and and non-judgment forfor anyone that I come in
(28:25):
contact with.
SPEAKER_02 (28:26):
There's two things I want to say on that.
The client, literally before ourinterview, is a younger police
officer.
And that person said to me,Everything's going good, Steve,
but I want to continue therapyuntil you know either one of us
dies.
And I'm like, You get it, youget it.
And younger, right?
I feel that the youngergeneration gets that mental
(28:48):
health is not stigmatized asmuch.
There's still a stigma.
I'd like to go and talk aboutthat too.
But the other part, too, youwere asking a good question.
This is how I explain it.
You can call it profiling, youcan call them
compartmentalization, call itwhatever you want.
I don't care.
But you know, if you think of aCanadian and which one of the
major sports will be hisfavorite sports, most people
(29:09):
will say hockey.
And in 90% of the time, you'llbe accurate.
And for me, obviously, thatfalls in that.
But I have two of my bestfriends, they don't even know
the Montreal Canadians are inthe playoffs.
And they're from Canada, bornand raised, they're my best
friends, and they have nointerest whatsoever.
I tell people that thesecompartmentalization, profiling,
(29:31):
whatever you want to call it, Idon't care.
You're allowed to have those aslong as you're willing to
question it.
And if you're not questioningit, that's where the problem
lies.
If I say that we had this prepre-interview, and I'm just
gonna go with a little bit ofour conversation.
Oh, everyone in Texas is gunhappy and they're carrying
everywhere and they're shootingeverything that moves.
You're allowed to have thatcompartmentalization.
(29:52):
Maybe you go to West Texas,maybe that's a little true,
maybe not, right?
But you go to I've been uh I'vebeen my my girlfriend's family's
from around Austin.
I've been to Houston, I'm goingto Dallas, hopefully very soon.
That's not true, and I knowthat, but it's okay to have that
compartmentalization as long asyou're willing to challenge it.
And that's how I explain it topeople.
(30:12):
Mentally ill people are allcrazy.
Okay, have that compartment.
How are you gonna challenge it?
Make sure that you can challengethose compartments.
So I don't know if I guess myPSA based on what you just said,
but that's how I explain humanbehavior is that to make life
simple, I need to have astereotype about whatever, and I
get that, or compartment.
As long as I'm willing tochallenge it, that's okay.
(30:33):
If I'm not willing to challengeit, that's where the problem
lies.
SPEAKER_01 (30:36):
Right on.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But if you remember thebeginning of my talk, is you
know, the BS, and it's justchallenge your belief system.
And again, why do you believewhat you believe?
And it's usually inherited oradopted from somebody else.
And even that, like if you readmy book and you're like, oh,
well, Joe, who the hell's Joe?
Like, just because it's in mybook doesn't give me any
authority or credibility.
(30:58):
It's you deciding I haveauthority and credibility.
And so I think it's importantthat we spend more time
challenging and questioningourselves as to why we believe
and do the things we do and thethings we don't do.
But sadly, not enough people dothat.
It's because it's easier to justthink the world is happening to
you instead of realizing theamount of agency that you
actually have and takingownership.
In fact, law number one in the12 laws is the law, the law of
(31:20):
radical ownership.
And it's about taking fullownership of your life, not and
and accepting that it, yes,things are going to happen for
sure.
But your life 100% is abyproduct of all of your
choices.
And you can fight that all daylong, but it's just the reality.
And so when you realize how muchactual agency and power you have
in your own life, there's a lotof freedom on the other side of
(31:42):
that suffering.
SPEAKER_02 (31:44):
Well, speaking of that suffering, I bet if you
suffer for a half hour, you'rewilling to suffer another half
hour.
I would love it, Steve.
Let's do another half hour forsure.
Well, you guys, and we're gonnaend up this episode.
We're gonna put a lot of thelinks in there, but we're gonna
go come in the other side, comeand listen to the next episode.
I just want to complete this onenow.
And I appreciate you time, yourtime, Joe.
And I know people come in forthe second part, so thank you.
SPEAKER_01 (32:05):
Right on.
Thank you, brother.
SPEAKER_00 (32:08):
Please like, subscribe, and follow this
podcast on your favoriteplatform.
A glowing review is alwayshelpful.
And as a reminder, this podcastis for informational,
educational, and entertainmentpurposes only.
If you're struggling with amental health or substance abuse
issue, please reach out to aprofessional counselor for
consultation.
If you are in a mental healthcrisis, call 988 for assistance.
(32:32):
This number is available in theUnited States and Canada.
Welcome to Resilience Development in Action
with Steve Bisson.
This is the podcast dedicated tofirst responder mental health,
helping police, fire, EMS,dispatchers, and paramedics
create better growthenvironments for themselves and
their teams.
Let's get started.
SPEAKER_02 (00:29):
Well, hi everyone, and welcome to Resilience
Development in Action.
I'm so happy to have you here,but more importantly, I've got
someone I heard speak.
And of course, you know, westart interviews and we start
chatting and chatting.
I'm like, this is all goodstuff.
I've got to record it.
But when you really arepersonable, and I really jo
enjoyed him presenting, what,about a month ago, a month and a
(00:50):
half ago around here?
And I was happy to have him on.
So, and of course, now I'm gonnaI'm putting you on the spot.
I'm gonna pronounce your lastname properly.
I'm gonna screw it up anyway,but that's okay.
I always say to people, it's mysecond language, I'll live with
myself.
Joe Smorrow.
Perfect, Steve.
You nailed it.
Welcome to ResilienceDevelopment in Action.
SPEAKER_01 (01:10):
Thank you, brother.
Super stoked to be here, and Iappreciate you sharing your
audience with me.
So yeah, I can't I can't wait todive in and see what we we're
gonna talk about.
SPEAKER_02 (01:18):
I I think that we're we're two P's in a pot in some
way.
I know I'm come from thecivilian side, but I I
definitely felt that we had agood connection because we're
gonna talk about a lot of stuffthat's very interesting to me
and working on the stigma, notonly from the mental health
perspective, but the stigmawithin a police department and
talking about mental health,particularly units.
(01:39):
I can't wait to talk about that.
But before we go there, I knowthat you know we we kind of met.
I didn't go see bother youbecause I knew you had a lot on
your plate, but I text you andwe we we exchanged a few times.
But how about you tell myaudience a little bit more about
yourself?
SPEAKER_01 (01:54):
Yeah, so from New York originally, I joined the
Marine Corps straight out ofhigh school for a specific
reason that maybe will come uplater, and did two combat tours
to Afghanistan and Iraq, andthen got out, moved to South
Texas, where I currently residestill, and joined the San
Antonio Police Department, spentuh 15 years with SAPD, and my
(02:17):
last 11 were full time on themental health unit.
And then I voluntarily resignedin 2020 because I started my
company back in 2017, but itreally was just as a side
hustle.
You know, a lot of cops work alot of overtime to make some
money, and in my case, it was topay a lot of child support.
And so, yeah, I wanted to makemoney doing something I actually
(02:38):
enjoyed.
And so training and teachingaround mental health was
something I'm very passionateabout.
And so my business partner,Jesse, best friend, and I
started this, and we had threeyears of traction and it was
going well.
And then 2020 happened, COVIDshuts down the world, but I'm
miserable as a cop.
I love policing, I love theprofession, I love mental health
(02:59):
unit, like it truly saved mylife.
And I really don't enjoy workingunder just horrible leadership.
And so I fought it for about 18months and realized like the
system is too big, can't doanything about it.
And so instead of just showingup and complaining every day,
uh, my therapist encouraged meto resign and focus on my
(03:20):
business full time.
And I was terrified, but I didit.
And it was very scary, but itwas one of the greatest
professional decisions I've evermade.
And now we're coming up on sixyears full time with no safety
net of running a business that'sbeen thriving and doing really
well, and super stoked.
So, Solution Point Plus, currentCEO of that.
And we are, we say internationalbecause we work in Canada as
(03:43):
well as the US, but we're atraining and consulting firm
that operates at theintersection of public safety
and behavioral health care.
And it has expanded beyond thatas well to where now we're in
public transit, the privatesector.
We really work with people whowork with people, and uh it's
been great.
And so super blessed to be inthe position I'm in.
Wrote a couple books, featuredin a documentary, gave a TEDx
(04:06):
talk, and now I do a bunch ofkeynotes and conference seminars
around the country.
So that's the high-levelintroduction, Steve.
And we can go as deep as youwant in any of that, but yeah,
pretty diverse experience and ahopeful optimist.
SPEAKER_02 (04:21):
Well, let me start with the same thing.
There's a couple of things thatI want to mention.
Thank you for serving.
I appreciate it.
As a Canadian who's neverserved, I truly respect that.
My dad was a huge armed forcesguy, and I always joke around
that you can serve in Canada orthe US, but we work so hand in
hand most of the time that itmight as well be the same exact
people.
(04:41):
Um thank you for serving, reallyappreciate it.
And two tours is in Iran andAfghanistan.
I have 400 questions just onthat.
I Iraq.
You said Iran.
I have not been to Iran.
Iraq, sorry, but sorry, sorry,that's the times, the times.
SPEAKER_01 (04:56):
That's current events.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (04:58):
Yeah.
Okay.
Well, yeah, well, we might mightbe there soon enough, but let's
not go into politicizing that.
One of the things that youmentioned that you said you're,
you know, you started off in thelaw enforcement, the mental
health world, and a little bitof what you've done.
I I want to, I we can gochronologically if you wish, but
the first thing I want tomention is that when you said
the private sector, one of thethings I find is I I work what
(05:19):
70, 75% of the time with firstresponders, police, fire, empty
dispatch.
And I have a lot of army, airforce, marines right now.
That's what I have.
But yeah, I've worked with theCoast Guard and I worked with
the Navy.
But I find that people in theprivate sector, particularly in
the C suite, and I don't likethat word, but I'm gonna use it,
(05:39):
they definitely need this typeof truthfulness that comes from
you.
I mean, if I will link the TEDTalk, the X talk, and everything
else, and definitely the book.
But what I think that you justsaid was important because I
think that the private sectoractually needs the type of
brutal honesty for lack of abetter word that we offer
because of our experience withthe mental health field and
(06:02):
particularly in your case withthe law enforcement and the
military.
SPEAKER_01 (06:06):
Yeah, and it's it's it's taken me a while to, I
think, understand or realizethis, and probably rooted from a
place of insecurity when, youknow, my experience from the
military into policing, I didn'treally understand how it was
going to translate into theprivate sector.
And so when I started, I didn'tgo to college until I was
already in my early 30s, but Iwas still a cop and I thought
that I was gonna stay a cop anddo 35 years.
(06:28):
And so I got my bachelor's incriminal justice, but then
became curious and so started mymaster's degree in
organizational psychology.
And so then I was like, allright, well, I want to
understand this better.
Well, then I started thebusiness and stopped going to
school.
And my goal is like any goodentrepreneur is to never finish
(06:49):
formal education.
And it's kind of just our like,ah, to the system.
Because again, I don't wantpeople to mistake that.
If you are a social worker, yes,for sure, go to school and do
all the things.
But I just think that a lot ofthe universities in our country,
it's it's a it's just a moneygrab for things that people are
never going to use.
And you're not really gainingthe experience you need unless
(07:11):
you're a specialty doctor,nurse, lawyer, something like
that.
So I realized for me, it was itwas how can I get real world
experience?
And learning from the fact oflike, how, how do the lessons
that I learned in policing,specifically on a mental health
unit, going to people's homes,going into the street, going
into the community, and reallyhaving to learn how to
(07:34):
effectively navigate this, youknow, crisis that's a pretty
chaotic, complex situation, anddoing that over and over and
over and getting really good atit, to then saying, like, okay,
well, there are a lot of peoplerunning these businesses and
these companies that feel stressand that are making difficult
decisions, usually to deal withmargins, numbers, people, staff
(07:55):
processes, policies, things likethat.
And for them, not to minimizeit, but it feels very stressful.
But then you take somebody thathas a lot of real world
experience of life and deathlevels of stress, and you
recognize that like there's alot of patterns and behavior,
and there's a way to kind ofcalm that very chaotic
(08:16):
situation.
And so the skills developedreally do transfer and translate
really well into the corporateside.
And so honestly, that's why Iwrote the second book.
So my first book is is titledUnarmed, and it's de-escalation
techniques to cultivate courage,compassion, and connection.
So, with that book, it was morefor the public safety side,
although non-first respondershave read it and gotten a lot
(08:37):
out of it because it's a lotabout communication and like
negotiation tactics.
The second book, which is righthere, boom, 12 laws of
maximizing the human experience.
This was more of like theleadership series, and it's slow
and low is the tagline.
And then someone once referredto me as a mental maverick, and
I was like, that's kind of sexy.
And so I just took that titleand I called this the Mental
(08:59):
Mavericks playbook.
And it really is just leadershiptechniques cultivated from like
real-world experience in thestreets of San Antonio and doing
this job for over a decade, youknow, thousands and over 8,000
contacts of people and variouslevels of crises and effectively
navigating and de-escalatingthose without using force.
(09:20):
And so I turned that into like a12 laws leadership principles
book to get traction in thecorporate side.
And so it's it's been exciting,man.
But yes, your points are spoton, and my narrow-mindedness
needed to be expanded, believingthat people everywhere could
benefit from the skills thatI've developed.
SPEAKER_02 (09:37):
I'm going to go back to when you spoke, and I think I
care I'm going to paraphrasewhat you said.
Sure.
But what you said is I neverwant to be the smartest person
in the room.
Not quite good words, butsomething to that effect.
And I think that that's what youknow, people in the private
sector, particularly in theC-suite, what I explain is that
they're used to being thesmartest person in the room, and
they're usually used to havingpeople say yes, yes, yes, yes.
(10:00):
Well, as a therapist, I come inas an experience of like, nah,
that's kind of screwed up, orno, this is wrong.
And that raw honesty that youtalk about that we need in the
streets as a police officer, asa mental health counselor,
whatever the case may be, isvery beneficial in the corporate
world because they're not usedto having someone going, Really?
That's what your best idea is.
Or and I I can't think of anexample right now, but the point
(10:23):
is, I think that that's why ittransforms.
I'm a child and familyspecialist.
If you told me I'd be workingwith cops and firefighters, I
would have said you're crazy 20years ago.
And today I can't see myselfdoing anything else.
But that doesn't mean in 10years I'm not working with the
elderly or something becauseI've developed passion.
I always think thatopportunities come from our
(10:44):
situations, and you had faced alot of the mental health stuff
in the community, and I thinkthat that plays a huge factor.
I think the also the you know, alittle bit of what I we talked
about pre-interview, but I'mgonna kind of ask you more
information.
You know, when I started 2006,the jail diversion program in
Framingham, Massachusetts, abouthalf those cops would call me
(11:05):
the hug a thug program.
And I know you did kind of thesame thing down in San Antonio.
I'm comparing apples todifferent types of apples, so I
think it's very similar, but Iknow you face similar issues.
How did that come from a mentalhealth perspective?
I was under turf, so I can kindof back off and I'll personalize
that.
Well, you're a cop, and othercops saying that you're the thug
hug a thug program probably hasa different meaning to you.
(11:33):
Just a quick break, guys.
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I actually bought one of theirhoodies, it was amazing, and I
really enjoyed wearing it.
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Deemed Fit is a firstresponder-owned activewear and a
leisure brand.
And one thing that I genuinelylike about them is that they
support different causes.
I actually gave a few people Iknow who work with first
(11:55):
responders and our nonprofitstheir name to uh DEMFit, and I
know they're talking to them.
They do a lot of initiatives andcollections that are based on
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Now, right back to the episode.
SPEAKER_01 (12:33):
Yeah.
Yeah, the the challenges are thesame.
And San Antonio started theircrisis intervention training
program before I was even on thejob.
So I didn't get on until 2005.
In 2002, is when they reallystarted their first like jail
diversion initiative.
And Houston kind of spearheadedfor all of Texas.
They're they're the largest cityin Texas, they're twice of
(12:55):
everything of San Antonio.
And so they really pioneeredwhat was happening.
Then San Antonio learned fromHouston and then was like, all
right, we're gonna adopt themodel and change it a bit to fit
our community here.
And when I got on in 2005, itstill wasn't part of the
training academy.
And so our police academy waseight months long.
There's no discussion of mentalhealth, no CIT program.
(13:16):
And then it wasn't, I wentthrough the CIT training in
2007.
And I will tell you that it wasone of those trainings where I
went in, like, you know, alittle skeptical, unsure, like,
what is this about?
And I left there, like, whoa,this to me is really exciting
because it gave me like a newperspective on what was possible
in policing.
And it wasn't just about, youknow, like the us versus them,
(13:39):
the bad guys.
It was like, no, here's a realopportunity where we can connect
with people and maybe, you know,kind of get them back on their
feet or introduce them into aresource they didn't know
existed before.
Maybe we could, you know,improve their continuity of care
and give them a chancepost-discharge instead of just a
revolving door.
And so CIT really opened myeyes.
And then we started a pilotprogram in 2009, and it was a
(14:03):
six-month trial of let's see ifthis mental health unit can get
stood up.
Uh, Nami was a big advocate.
The two original officers, Ernieand Willie, presented it with
the chief's approval, and theyjust did a whole bunch of like
proof, proof of concept, data,data, data, relieving officers
back to uh in duty, not usingforce, a bunch of touch points
(14:23):
and contacts, working closelywith the stakeholders and the
community, and the proof wasthere.
And then when it actually becamea unit, is when they opened it
up to the department.
And this is a department of2,460 officers.
And so I'm not gonna say it wascompetitive as in 2,000 cops
wanted to do it.
That would be a massiveembellishment.
But there were definitely ahandful of people that wanted
(14:44):
it.
Well, several.
I mean, there's probably 50 to100 cops that were like, I'm
interested in that.
I was very fortunate to getselected.
And so when we actually became,well, they called it a detail
because there was only four ofus, but we were actually a
full-time unit and full-time notas in 24-7, but full-time in
that, that's all we did.
We don't take robbery calls.
(15:05):
I'm not taking, you know,shoplifter calls.
100% of my case, my call outswere mental health related.
So that was interesting.
Then from CIT international,this standard of like, you know,
15 to 25% of your of everydepartment should be CIT trained
and it should be voluntary.
We we hit that mark and that waspretty easy.
(15:27):
But then the chief was like,nope, we're gonna do 100%.
That was when we saw a hugeshift.
So I am a I am uh advocate of100% training and CIT
international is not.
And so uh for me, it's I get theidea that this should be for
people that want to do it, but Ialso push back on the fact that
(15:50):
unless you're a cop, that when adispatch calls your number, you
can say no thanks.
What else do you have on themenu?
Which is not a reality anywhere.
You have to respond to the callsyou're dispatched to.
And so you should not get tochoose how trained you are.
And if we know that there'svarying degrees of research out
there, but let's just goconservative and say 35% of
(16:12):
every 911 call has like a mentalhealth nexus to it.
Officers need to be trained.
And all it really is, is a40-hour CIT program, if it's
done well, it's advancedcommunication techniques,
helping you understand theresources that exist in your
community, and then having yougiving you a better
understanding of what variousmental illness and serious
(16:33):
mental illnesses are out thereand how to interact with those
people.
Why is that such a bad thing tome?
And so for me, I thought it wasa great idea.
The problem was we werecranking.
And so now we're having to dolike two 40-hour schools a month
for two years.
And I heard all these officerscome in, you know, the older
officers, the salty, come injust really pissed off.
(16:55):
And they would say things onMonday morning like, Joe, I
don't believe in this hug-a-thugcrap.
This is not police work.
I'd rather retire than comehere.
And I'm like, all right, cool,man.
Like, I think your name tent'sright over there.
Like, go find your seat.
I'm glad you're here.
And, you know, they were reallypissed off about it.
But what was super interestingto me, and again, I don't want
to, you know, try to embellishanything.
(17:17):
I I really believe that I'll goseven out of ten.
The the officers that came inmost pissed off about being
forced to be there, right?
Because cops don't like to bemandated to do anything.
Seven out of ten times the onesthat were vocal on Monday, angry
about it on Friday, would likesneak up to us and make sure no
one's looking, and they'd belike, hey man, that was actually
(17:39):
really good.
Or, hey, I gotta be honest, thereason that I was so frustrated
is because my son has bipolar,or my wife is diagnosed with
this, or my family.
So they had some type ofpersonal connection and the
system and their mind let themdown.
So now they're like anti-allthings mental health, plus their
stigma.
(17:59):
I don't want people to know Ihave mental health in my family.
But then you get people like meand other officers up there just
like, yeah, and I'm diagnosedwith mental illness, and I'm in
treatment.
And, you know, and so when youbecome an internal champion and
start really sharing your ownstory, people start to buy into
it.
And so our program really wasgreat.
And we we converted a lot ofpeople that, if we left it
voluntary, would have never cameto the training in the first
(18:22):
place.
And so now that, you know,through our company, it's one of
the it's the least training weoffer now because CIT is just so
like you can grab it off a tree,you can download PowerPoints
offline, it's free everywhere.
And so we don't get hired to dothat as much anymore, which is
unfortunate, but also it's justthe way of the world.
But when we do, I love itbecause I love we still get
(18:43):
those naysayers that are like, Idon't want to do this.
And I'm like, love it.
We'll talk on Friday.
And they're like, Will you be mybest friend?
Oh my God, this is amazing.
I'm like, yeah, man, like it'sif you could just stay
open-minded, you'd be amazed atwhat would happen.
So we went through those growingpains.
And now that the units likefully running.
I mean, they've got over 40,it's 24-7, you know, embedded
(19:04):
clinicians.
It's it's a full operation atthis point.
But yeah, it's it's been a greatride.
SPEAKER_02 (19:09):
You talk about open-mindedness, I think that
that's part of it.
I'm part of a CIT trainingprogram myself.
I do the mental health arch,surprise, surprise.
And what what I find, I evenasked the guys, I'm like, how
many of you really are here?
Because you had to.
And sometimes people have the brthe you know, the ball stuff or
the ovarian fortitude to puttheir hands up.
(19:32):
But when I do that, I'm like,look, I'm not gonna promise I'm
gonna change your life, but I'mgonna give you real life
examples that I faced.
And hopefully you can relate toone or two.
And even if you think I'm crazy,come afterwards and tell me,
hey, you know what?
You're crazy.
You know how many times peoplecame in and told me I was crazy
afterwards?
Zero.
unknown (19:49):
No.
SPEAKER_02 (19:50):
They're like, Oh man, I didn't know you guys
understood that part.
And I'm like, look, you're gonnaface a mental health call,
whether you like it or not.
If you think that you're not,then you should give up policing
right away and you know go dosomething else.
But you're gonna face mentalhealth problems there too, no
matter where you end up.
So either you learn about thisor you look like an idiot.
And I didn't say that in frontof everyone, I privately said
(20:11):
that, and they all related tothat because it was a direct
statement, but it was also true.
I think the open-mindednesscomes not only because of lived
experience, but when you callabout a call XYZ, oh shoot, that
was like the call I went to, orthis happened at this call, but
I relate to that.
And then I think that that'swhat opened a whole lot of
minds.
I don't know if that's yourexperience.
And I know I was seen as themental health guy who's a
(20:32):
civilian who doesn't knowanything, which is fine.
I'm okay with that role.
But when you come from a policeperspective, so a veteran who
served and brings that stuff, Ithink that's what opens a lot of
people's minds, especially onthe CIT stuff.
SPEAKER_01 (20:47):
Yeah, yeah.
I've been very fortunate to beable to convert a lot of people,
a lot of naysayers.
And it's, you know, one of ourcompany slogans is facts tell
and story sell.
Yes, our training isevidence-based.
Yes, it's trauma-informed, yes,we understand all the nuance.
Yes, we are familiar with theDSM five and diagnostics.
No, we are not diagnosinganybody.
And this is why, like in thelast three years, our largest
(21:09):
revenue driver has actually beentraining clinicians and behavior
health workers and socialworkers and licensed therapists
if they're doing crisis work.
Because you can have thegreatest social work degree from
the greatest social workuniversity, but you're you're
you're probably, and some arestarting to do this, but it's
still very rare.
But you're not learning aboutcrisis work and you're not
(21:30):
learning about safety andtactics, and you're not learning
about how to go into someone'shome.
And you're not like these aren'tpeople that are making
appointments to come into youroffice in a controlled
environment to talk to youabout, you know, their trauma.
These are very, very complexsituations.
And this is the problem withcommunity a lot, not a lot, but
many advocates that are antipolice responding to mental
(21:52):
health is like we need police tostop going to mental health
calls because they bring a gunto the call.
And this is how shootings arehappening.
We just need therapy.
To respond to calls.
And it's like, yeah, you couldtry that until you realize that
a lot of these calls have adrug-induced component to it.
They're, they've gotco-occurring disorders.
They're very complex.
And I'm not saying that socialworkers and therapists aren't
(22:12):
capable.
I'm just saying they're notequipped to keep themselves
safe.
And so it's an and both from mypoint of view, and my opinion is
that like both can be reallyeffective and both should be
working together.
You know, and everyone has theirlane to stay in.
But there's no therapist that'sresponding to a community call
where someone's in crisis andthey're going to show up there
(22:33):
and start running through anassessment protocol doing a
questionnaire to diagnosesomebody.
That's not the time and placefor it.
We're just trying to minimizethe situation.
SPEAKER_02 (22:44):
I'm not doing that in a crisis.
I'm trying to solve it in fiveto ten minutes.
SPEAKER_01 (22:48):
Yes.
How can I keep everyone safe?
How can I navigate you to thenext level of care?
Is that hospitalization?
Is that a referral and make sureno one's going to get hurt when
I leave?
Like that's really what it is.
And do I have the skills and theconfidence and the competence to
know what I'm looking at, knowwhat I'm dealing with, and then
know how to adapt to theenvironment so that I'm not
(23:10):
escalating the situation andmaking it worse.
And that's where a lot of that'swhere a lot of our training sits
is look, I get you went to a lotof school and paid money and you
understand diagnostic criteria.
That's not what you're going todo in crisis context.
So we're here to teach you abouthuman behavior.
And when someone is irate, whensomeone is punching holes in
(23:30):
cheatrock, when someone'sthrowing things, how can we
de-escalate that withoutthreatening them and screaming
and barking orders and runningaway?
So that's that's the kind of thenuance between those two things.
And again, we've been superblessed, even with them.
You know, not all.
I don't like general statements,but I get that that's how the
world kind of operatessometimes.
(23:52):
But a lot of therapists, socialworkers, behavior health types
tend to lean a certain way.
And when we come in as formerMarines, combat deployed, former
police officers, and we're goingto talk to you about mental
health.
There's a lot of people thathave bias just from our
introduction of like, what theheck are these dudes going to
talk to me about when they're inthe military and they were cops?
(24:15):
They're going to teach me aboutmental health.
And we've had people likethey'll tell us or they'll put
it in the survey feedback ofjust when I saw your bios, I was
kind of tuned out because Idon't like you guys.
Like, I don't like the police.
I don't, I don't like themilitary.
I don't, and and but then I whatI do appreciate is the ones that
are willing to own that theyhave their own bias, that they
(24:37):
were falling into thestereotypes of things, and that
by the end of it, they werelike, you know what?
This was actually really good.
And you guys opened my mind andtaught me things that I didn't
realize or know.
And so thank you.
But there's some that are justso closed off because it's like,
oh, you guys were cops, I'm notgonna listen to anything.
And that's an unfortunate way toexist, in my opinion.
With love.
SPEAKER_02 (24:58):
Yeah, well, I agree.
Oh, come on, man, don't do that.
I'm gonna lose my audience now.
If you didn't see you, if you'renot on on video, he just made a
heart with his fingers.
So just why I make sure everyoneknows that would happen.
I'll tell you what I said in atraining with a very I'm not
gonna share.
I people have heard this.
So on uh I was doing a trainingfor a hospital around here
(25:18):
webinar, and they asked me,What's the one thing you should
know about police officers?
What should we know about theirtr how to treat them?
This is how I say so.
If I see a person who's breakinginto a car who happens to be
black, and I say, All blackpeople scare steal cars, you
would be up my uh my butt in twoand a half seconds.
How difficult, how this andthat, and and you would be
(25:39):
right.
So if a cop shoots someone in avery wrong way in Minnesota, for
example, why is the cop in SanAntonio, Texas, or Medway,
Massachusetts, suddenly a jerk?
Is that fair?
But that's how you treat it.
So you want us to treat you asindividuals and want to treat
everyone like individuals, yougotta do the same thing with the
law enforcement people.
(25:59):
Yeah, there's gonna be jerks,but guess what?
There's jerk therapists, there'sjerk uh everything that you can
think of in a job.
So stop saying that you're notdoing exactly what you tell us
not to do.
And that's usually that's kindof the important message there.
SPEAKER_01 (26:13):
But well, yeah, and and cops are not immune from
that either, Steve, of what youjust said.
And it's frustrating for me whenthe same because we they'll do
the same thing, right?
Like, I remember it was severalyears ago, but like it was in in
Denver, and there were twoofficers in a Starbucks getting
a coffee, and one of thecustomers was like, Oh my god,
they're scaring me.
And the Starbucks employee askedthe officers to leave because
they were scaring the patrons.
(26:35):
There were cops in Texas thatare like, I'm not never going to
Starbucks again.
And I'm like, why?
Like, just because one employeeat that place of business in
Denver did something stupid, nowyou're boycotting all of
Starbucks.
Like, do you realize how stupidthis is?
Like, we complain about the samething, but yet we're gonna take
part in it.
And it's like, to me, that'swhere I get really curious about
human behavior and how we whathow we become the sheep, as they
(26:58):
say, and we follow the crowd andwe follow, you know, you become
what you consume.
And you know, it's but this iswhere again for me, it just
becomes so fascinating.
People will often say, like,well, it's judgment.
I'm like, no, it really isn'tjudgment.
It really, I'm fascinated andI'm curious of why we believe
the things we believe, why we dothe things we do, why we consume
(27:20):
what we consume, all of it, likeevery level, because it drives
all of our behavior and ourbeliefs.
And but yeah, no one's reallyimmune from that until they're
aware that they do it, and thenthey become, okay, I don't want
to do that anymore.
Which is why for me, truly, zerojudgment.
Like, yeah, if you did somehorrible thing in your past,
cool, I think you're redeemable.
And if you're willing to work onit and learn to forgive yourself
(27:41):
and do the hard work, because Irealize my life, the things I've
done, the choices I've made, themistakes I've made, where I came
from, those are all excuses.
I could use that and wear aflavor of flavor size clock of
victim badge of woe is me.
Or I can be like, wait a minute,I think I am the one that
continues to make these stupidchoices.
I should probably address why Ikeep doing this.
(28:02):
Why do I sabotage so much?
I'm gonna go get a therapist andthen never leave.
Um, and 15 years later, here weare.
So, yeah, shout out to all thetherapists doing the good work
out there.
But yeah, it's it's just to me,it's I've learned so much
through my own treatment andhealing journey that that has
allowed me to project out awhole bunch of you know open
space and and non-judgment forfor anyone that I come in
(28:25):
contact with.
SPEAKER_02 (28:26):
There's two things I want to say on that.
The client, literally before ourinterview, is a younger police
officer.
And that person said to me,Everything's going good, Steve,
but I want to continue therapyuntil you know either one of us
dies.
And I'm like, You get it, youget it.
And younger, right?
I feel that the youngergeneration gets that mental
(28:48):
health is not stigmatized asmuch.
There's still a stigma.
I'd like to go and talk aboutthat too.
But the other part, too, youwere asking a good question.
This is how I explain it.
You can call it profiling, youcan call them
compartmentalization, call itwhatever you want.
I don't care.
But you know, if you think of aCanadian and which one of the
major sports will be hisfavorite sports, most people
(29:09):
will say hockey.
And in 90% of the time, you'llbe accurate.
And for me, obviously, thatfalls in that.
But I have two of my bestfriends, they don't even know
the Montreal Canadians are inthe playoffs.
And they're from Canada, bornand raised, they're my best
friends, and they have nointerest whatsoever.
I tell people that thesecompartmentalization, profiling,
(29:31):
whatever you want to call it, Idon't care.
You're allowed to have those aslong as you're willing to
question it.
And if you're not questioningit, that's where the problem
lies.
If I say that we had this prepre-interview, and I'm just
gonna go with a little bit ofour conversation.
Oh, everyone in Texas is gunhappy and they're carrying
everywhere and they're shootingeverything that moves.
You're allowed to have thatcompartmentalization.
(29:52):
Maybe you go to West Texas,maybe that's a little true,
maybe not, right?
But you go to I've been uh I'vebeen my my girlfriend's family's
from around Austin.
I've been to Houston, I'm goingto Dallas, hopefully very soon.
That's not true, and I knowthat, but it's okay to have that
compartmentalization as long asyou're willing to challenge it.
And that's how I explain it topeople.
(30:12):
Mentally ill people are allcrazy.
Okay, have that compartment.
How are you gonna challenge it?
Make sure that you can challengethose compartments.
So I don't know if I guess myPSA based on what you just said,
but that's how I explain humanbehavior is that to make life
simple, I need to have astereotype about whatever, and I
get that, or compartment.
As long as I'm willing tochallenge it, that's okay.
(30:33):
If I'm not willing to challengeit, that's where the problem
lies.
SPEAKER_01 (30:36):
Right on.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But if you remember thebeginning of my talk, is you
know, the BS, and it's justchallenge your belief system.
And again, why do you believewhat you believe?
And it's usually inherited oradopted from somebody else.
And even that, like if you readmy book and you're like, oh,
well, Joe, who the hell's Joe?
Like, just because it's in mybook doesn't give me any
authority or credibility.
(30:58):
It's you deciding I haveauthority and credibility.
And so I think it's importantthat we spend more time
challenging and questioningourselves as to why we believe
and do the things we do and thethings we don't do.
But sadly, not enough people dothat.
It's because it's easier to justthink the world is happening to
you instead of realizing theamount of agency that you
actually have and takingownership.
In fact, law number one in the12 laws is the law, the law of
(31:20):
radical ownership.
And it's about taking fullownership of your life, not and
and accepting that it, yes,things are going to happen for
sure.
But your life 100% is abyproduct of all of your
choices.
And you can fight that all daylong, but it's just the reality.
And so when you realize how muchactual agency and power you have
in your own life, there's a lotof freedom on the other side of
(31:42):
that suffering.
SPEAKER_02 (31:44):
Well, speaking of that suffering, I bet if you
suffer for a half hour, you'rewilling to suffer another half
hour.
I would love it, Steve.
Let's do another half hour forsure.
Well, you guys, and we're gonnaend up this episode.
We're gonna put a lot of thelinks in there, but we're gonna
go come in the other side, comeand listen to the next episode.
I just want to complete this onenow.
And I appreciate you time, yourtime, Joe.
And I know people come in forthe second part, so thank you.
SPEAKER_01 (32:05):
Right on.
Thank you, brother.
SPEAKER_00 (32:08):
Please like, subscribe, and follow this
podcast on your favoriteplatform.
A glowing review is alwayshelpful.
And as a reminder, this podcastis for informational,
educational, and entertainmentpurposes only.
If you're struggling with amental health or substance abuse
issue, please reach out to aprofessional counselor for
consultation.
If you are in a mental healthcrisis, call 988 for assistance.
(32:32):
This number is available in theUnited States and Canada.
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