July 15, 2026 • 27 mins
He walked away from the pulpit because the stress would not let his body rest, then spent the next two decades staring straight at humanity’s darkest corners. I’m joined by Eric Robinson, newly retired after 24 years in the FBI, to talk about resilience that’s earned, not posted. Eric shares how carrying other people’s pain as a solo pastor led to daily headaches, and why choosing a new path was a mental health decision as much as a career move.
From there, we trace his unusual transition into federal law enforcement, including how the post 9-11 environment and his background shaped the Bureau’s interest. We also get real about maturity and judgment in high-stakes work: what experience gives you, why authenticity matters with first responders, and how a “mask” culture can quietly grind people down.
Then we go deeper into the cases that leave a mark: sex trafficking, exploitation, gangs, and the challenge of staying compassionate without being naive. Eric explains why justice can’t depend on a “perfect victim,” and he tells a moment from Chicago that re-centered him fast when a kid he judged as a nuisance asked for help getting home. We close with a look at how he approaches interviews and interrogations by building connection and psychological safety to get the truth, not to perform anger.
If you care about first responder mental health, trauma-informed leadership, and real-world resilience skills, hit play, then subscribe, share this with a teammate, and leave a review so more people can find the show.
Please reach Eric through his website at http://www.preachertobreacher.com
DeemedFit: First Responder OwnedWe are a first responder owned company looking to get first responders in the best mental shape.
Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:01):
Welcome to Resilience Development in Action
with Steve Bisson.
This is the podcast dedicated tofirst responder mental health,
helping police, fire, EMS,dispatchers, and paramedics
create better growthenvironments for themselves and
their teams.
Let's get started.
SPEAKER_01 (00:29):
Well, hi everyone, and welcome to Resilience
Development in Action.
I'm so happy to meet EricRobinson.
You know, we meet peopledifferently.
I've said this many times on mypodcast.
And I met Eric through a podmatch.
Yes, it's not like a datingsite.
We were joking around about thatearlier, because our wiveslash
girlfriends will not be happyabout these things.
(00:50):
So anyway, it was great to readhis story and then we exchanged,
and I thought that that was agreat, you'd be a great guest.
But Eric Robinson, welcome toResilience Development in
Action.
SPEAKER_02 (00:59):
Thanks, Steve.
Also a pleasure on my end, too.
SPEAKER_01 (01:02):
You know, I looked at your book and I'm like, darn,
I should have read that book.
I didn't get a chance to look atit yet because the story's
fascinating, but I don't want totake away from you telling your
story.
But for me, going from, youknow, a specific job to another
like yours and then retiring andbeing to where you're at in your
spiritual life, your mentalhealth life, your physical life
(01:23):
is just fascinating to me.
But because I read a lot morethan probably most of my
audience at this point aboutyou, Eric, I probably should ask
you to introduce yourself.
SPEAKER_02 (01:33):
Sure.
I am a few months retired from24 years in the FBI, joined in
2002, and during the years, I'llgo through it real fast.
I worked drug cartels, gangs,public corruption, and civil
rights, organized crime, crimesagainst children, financial
crimes, national security, andhuman intelligence.
(01:54):
Along the way, did 15 years as aSWOT operator, and that was very
fulfilling.
Firearms and tacticalinstructor.
Got to see quite a few things.
And prior to that, I was aBaptist pastor.
So I preached my last sermon inthe church on Easter of 2002,
just happened to be.
(02:14):
The next Sunday, I was inQuantico, Virginia for the FBI
Academy.
And the Sunday after that, asthey're easing me into my law
enforcement career, I waspreaching in the chapel in the
FBI Academy because they didn'thave a chaplain and asked me to
fill in.
SPEAKER_01 (02:30):
Well, there's so many things that you just said
that seems to me that are veryimportant.
You know, I never know where toreally start because this is
always people's stories and Ilove their story.
The first thing that came tomind is the 2002 decided to go
to the FBI.
I'm like, all right, sorry, 9-11kicks in right away for me.
Is that what kind of like madeyou decide to go into a more law
(02:52):
enforcement type of job orsomething else?
SPEAKER_02 (02:55):
Or it it was something else.
And as you get into mentalhealth and resiliency, it was
for my mental health.
And it might seem odd to you,but I uh pastoring the church,
there were a number of factors.
The shorthand answer for me isthat I was incapable of
separating myself from thepeople's problems.
(03:16):
So they're I'm doing normalpastor stuff.
People are coming to me saying,hey, I've got this issue, and
I'm working through with them,but then I would carry it on
from there.
So better men have been able tofigure out how to not hold on to
that.
That wasn't me.
And the result of that was thestress gave me headaches every
(03:38):
single day for the final twoyears.
And I mean every day.
And while I enjoyed what I wasdoing and it was fulfilling, and
we were successful, we're doingwell.
There just came to a point whereI couldn't do it anymore.
Yeah, I had to decide likeeither I was going to choose to
make a move, or inevitably mybody would make that choice for
(03:59):
me, and I didn't want to seethat happen.
And so I looked at a few jobs,say, well, let's just start out
and see what's there.
And I I applied for one job thatI was overqualified for, and
they turned me down, and then Iapplied for one that I was
underqualified for, and theysaid, Yeah, sure.
So to nine to 9-11, I hadstudied Islam in the past.
(04:21):
I was trained to be a missionaryto Muslim cultures.
That course changed a bit, and Istayed safe-side and just went
through pastoring.
But my application was inprocess when 9-11 hit, and I'm
presuming that my background inworking with Muslims was a
factor in being hired because wehad an al-Qaeda problem.
(04:44):
And hey, this guy knows how tocontact Muslims, reach out to
him.
So I think the Bureau took achance on me for that.
And then, of course, once I goton board, they stuck me on a
drug squad.
SPEAKER_01 (04:55):
Yeah, that's why it's funny because when you
started talking, I'm like, andthen he ended up being on SWAT.
SPEAKER_02 (05:00):
Yeah, never handled a gun before.
SPEAKER_01 (05:02):
Oh, really?
Yeah.
So when you know, without beingtoo pushy, what how old were you
when you decided all this?
SPEAKER_02 (05:09):
I was that's not pushy.
SPEAKER_01 (05:11):
I was well, I know you're only 35, so that's my
gosh.
SPEAKER_02 (05:15):
My shoulder is 85.
SPEAKER_01 (05:18):
That's I'm shooting the fucking gun.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (05:21):
Oh my gosh.
I and and I love having theheadphones on because obviously
all those days at the range,like I I have found that even on
podcasts when people talk, I dothis because you know the
hearing starts to go.
I was 32, 33 when I got on, andthen didn't join SWAT until I
was 42.
(05:42):
So it's a young man's game, butI started pretty pretty ripe
running around with the youngerguys.
SPEAKER_01 (05:50):
Well, it's funny because the I want to go back to
a couple of things, but the onething I would say to you is that
if anything, I want my FBIpeople to be a little more
experienced than a 22-year-oldkid.
SPEAKER_02 (06:00):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (06:00):
But that's just me.
SPEAKER_02 (06:02):
Oh, yeah.
It's the same here.
And so the Bureau, if you'regonna be an agent, you have to
be you have to have a bachelor'sdegree and then at least three
years real world experience.
And even then, I mean, you know,kids who are 24, 25 say, oh, I
think I'm going to try.
I'm like, nah, man, you you yougotta get at least hit 27.
(06:23):
Get a little bit of time inthere where like you're you're
you're on the the front edgeedge of adult.
SPEAKER_01 (06:29):
Right.
I mean, you know, I go back tothere's so many things I would
say to that.
I believe that we shouldn't makebe able to make we we can I
don't mind voting, but likemaking any decisions about your
body or anything else shouldn'tbe done till at least 25.
Because that's when your yourfrontal prefrontal cortex gets
fully developed.
So that's where I think being inthe FBI, being 25 should be a
(06:52):
minimal requirement.
Oh, yeah, because I think that II I remember how I was at 23,
and you shouldn't give me a gunor intel for any shit.
Um that's me.
SPEAKER_02 (07:03):
Right.
And the FBI shouldn't beteaching you how to be an adult.
And so it's funny, when I camein, folks were older, and then
they went through a period ofyounger, and then they went
through a period of you know,guys were at least 30, and now
they're skewing younger again,trying to get more agents in.
SPEAKER_01 (07:22):
Yeah, I think that we're the there's a difference
in generation now.
People think about careers alittle differently, and I don't
know if it's better or worse.
I don't want to judge that.
I just think it's different.
Uh, one of the things you talkedabout that, you know, being a
pastor, sorry, this cement thehall podcast too, so gotta be
making, you know, you talkedabout separating yourself from
people's problems.
It's interesting because Ialways thought that being a
(07:43):
pastor, being a reverend, beinga type of person that will be in
charge of a congregation orwhatever you want to call it, a
a temple or anything else likethat.
I thought that they would talkabout you know the whole
boundary thing in the sense thathow to like leave it at the
fucking door.
In mental health, they do thatto us, and you learn how to do
(08:04):
it because you know, we just Idon't want to compare pastors to
mental health counselors becauseI think they're apples to
oranges, the same type of area,but not similar.
Yeah, we got you know, it'sfunny that they never taught you
guys how to kind of like leaveit at the door, so to speak.
SPEAKER_02 (08:19):
Yeah, in the church, they didn't to teach us how to
leave it at the fucking door.
The it uh part of it too is I Iwas the sole pastor, so I didn't
have you know others to interactwith.
That was my fault.
I was fairly young and didn'trealize what I needed.
So, you know, here I am guttingit out, you know, with the
(08:40):
headaches, trying to getthrough.
Running was the only thing thathelped.
That if I ran, then no headache,and then I'd have a bit of an
afterglow of like, oh, okay, I'mstill at peace, and then it
would hit.
I know it was self-imposed, butobviously there was some truth
to this that as a pastor, I hadto wear a mask, I had to be this
(09:01):
person, and so that was part ofwhy I wasn't sharing things with
other people.
And again, I know that wasself-imposed, but it's not out
of whole cloth.
Like clearly there was that, youknow, at least a notion of,
yeah, yeah, yeah, we need ourpastor to always be right,
doesn't like to smoke cigars,doesn't like to drink bourbon,
(09:21):
doesn't like to watch rated Rmovies.
Okay, so now I gotta hidemyself.
So that added to it as well.
SPEAKER_01 (09:27):
Well, I think that that's a good point, right?
Being yourself is key.
You know, one of the things thatI talk about in my field is that
some therapists learn that wholedetachment and all that.
That's what they still teach usin school.
I don't know.
I haven't been in school in like20 years, maybe they don't.
But for me, I because of thework I do, if anything, if I am
not authentic or I'm not beingmyself, or I kind of hide who I
(09:49):
am, I am screwed with thispopulation because first
responders can smell a fake froma mile away.
Yeah.
And I think that that's where Ilike tell people like the worst
thing that could happen ispeople saw who I was.
And I think if that's the worstthing you could ever say, I
guess I'm okay.
SPEAKER_02 (10:04):
Yeah.
And what was good for me is whenI got into the FBI, obviously
there's stressors there, but itdidn't affect me the same.
All I had to do was be a goodFBI agent, do the job, and you
know, the results happened oneway or the other.
Disappointed maybe, but notdisappointed in the same way
that I'm struggling with itbecause that's a family breaking
(10:25):
up, like and it's still gonna bebroken up.
This is you know, bad guy getsaway and he's in the wind.
Okay, somebody'll catch him.
Guy's not getting indicted whenhe should be.
Yeah, disappointing.
Society will get him, he'll getcaught somewhere.
So it just didn't affect me aspersonally.
SPEAKER_01 (10:45):
Well, you know, that's interesting because I
hear you say that.
And having worked in the jailfor a couple of years, worked at
parole, worked at probationmyself, again, mental health
only.
I will not steal any valor.
People know that on my podcast.
It's just I've always been amental health guy.
I never worked per se in the lawenforcement or first responder
world.
You gotta deal with criminals inthe undervalued society.
(11:08):
I'll be perfectly honest withyou.
When I worked in those fields,sometimes it affected me
mentally.
You talk about, oh, family'sreally affecting me, FBI not so
much.
So yeah, what's it like to bewith like these guys?
And then you go, like, ah, okay,let's go home and have a cigar
in a bourbon.
SPEAKER_02 (11:24):
Yeah, so I I I I think of it this way like there
had to be some reflection.
Because if you have this notionof, oh my gosh, there's so many
criminals or so much crime outin the world, it's it's like
somebody who's a bird watchersaying, Man, there's so many
birds out here.
Well, every day when I check in,like I'm on the computer looking
(11:47):
for bad guys, I'm staring at atbad guys.
Well, I have to be aware andthen realize that's work, that's
what I'm doing for real.
I have to be interacting withother people to show, oh, right.
You know, I don't I'm not gonnaget so cynical to think
everyone's like this that, yeah,Steve, you seem like a nice guy,
(12:08):
but I know there's dirt on you,and so I don't trust you.
There is, but there is, but it'sit's it's it's the kind of dirt
that's okay.
It's fine.
But yeah, uh I mean my dad usedto tell me, and we get in some
discussions, and he'd say, youknow, you're you're very you're
in a bubble in the church, likeyou don't realize what the real
(12:30):
world is.
And he was a truck driver, so hewasn't talking about criminal
stuff, it's just like, hey,you're talking to people who are
homogeneous, they're like you,they're from your town, you
know, they're similar ages,similar socioeconomic
backgrounds.
And you know, we would discussthat or argue, and then I get in
the FBI and like like always, mydad was right.
(12:52):
You know, I'm seeing you so muchdifferent.
I'm in Chicago talking to gangmembers who are completely
different than how I grew up.
I'm talking to teen prostituteswho are not like me.
And you know, I'm talking withguys who are business managers
stealing money, millionaires,but stealing more money, and
(13:15):
they're not like me.
So it was it was eye-opening toget into a new world and see
different types of people, butthen also see the commonalities
of hey, we're still human too.
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Now, right back to the episode.
Well, you you talk aboutinteracting with those
individuals on, you know, andhow they're different than us.
(14:41):
You can't tell me you didn'thear like some stories that were
also heartbreaking.
I mean, when you hear about youtalk about teen prostitution, I
know we use the name humantrafficking now.
Um it's pretty similar, if youask me.
Um I know people will say it'sslightly different.
Okay, whatever.
How do you deal with that?
Because that to me, like that'sthe that was the hard part is
(15:02):
hearing like the victims,particularly.
Yep.
Because you know, people willbe, oh, she's a prostitute.
Yeah, but when you're forcedinto it, are you a prostitute?
SPEAKER_02 (15:12):
Yeah, so what was often happening, and so if
they're doing it on their own,then it's just them
prostituting.
When an adult gets involved, nowit's sex trafficking.
And the difference between youand me and the pimps we'd run
into is here's a 16-year-oldgirl who's a runaway, parents
(15:32):
are useless, drug addicts,absent, abusive.
And so she's out on her own andshe's been prostituting because
she needs to survive.
And unlike you or me, this adultmale comes by and says, I would
like to exploit that.
You know, you and I would say,How can I help you?
Let's get you out of this.
But they would say, Here's amoney-making opportunity.
(15:54):
So most times, there's alwaysdifferences, but most times
these pimps were coming along,they're looking for the girls so
they can add them to the stable,but they're now going to exploit
them further.
When we would prosecute thesepimps, they would so often fight
against the charges because thisis their mindset.
(16:15):
And this is again part of thatfascinating seeing humans at
work.
She was already doing this.
Like I was doing, like I didn'tforce her into this.
She was already having sex withmen.
I I helped her earn more money.
I drove her places, I took careof her, I gave her gifts,
leaving out the manipulation,the abuse, the inherent evil of
(16:39):
not caring for someone introuble, but instead pushing
them further into that.
So we would have so many ofthese victims, and the
prosecutors would say, Yeah,she's just not a good witness.
I'm like, no, no, no, no.
This isn't about the victim.
This is about the adult carryingout the crime.
Because she might just you knowthe prosecutors look at it and
(17:02):
go, Yeah, but after you arrestedhim, she's back out on the
street.
I'm like, we're going after him.
We're going after the evil.
We got to find some way to getsome foundations in to help her.
But our job is justice, we'regoing after him.
SPEAKER_01 (17:18):
And going after them sometimes is very complex.
Like you said, they they protectthemselves in the well, I'm just
helping here.
Right.
Um, omitting a lot of the otherstuff.
SPEAKER_02 (17:28):
Well, and that's like that in court, that's not
gonna fly.
Like, you know, go ahead and trythat one.
You're gonna get hammered.
But in their mind, hey, I Idon't understand why you think
I'm I'm not a trafficker, I'mnot forcing it.
There were some who did, butthat's their mindset.
unknown (17:45):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (17:46):
And it wasn't necessarily like you and I might
have that mindset in order toassuage our guilt and tamp it
down for them.
That's just that's just how theyrecollected what they're doing.
Meanwhile, they were part of agroup, a society, a
micro-society, that praised thistype of male behavior that said,
(18:07):
This is how you are, more of aman, how you show your strength
by taking on these women.
SPEAKER_01 (18:14):
Well, I think that think about prostitution.
I also, you said you're dealingwith gang members, sometimes
that gang-on-gang violence, youknow.
Some people, you know, I'veheard many people like, well, if
they kill each other, that'sfine.
But there's also got to be acompassionate side where, you
know, they're still humans, andI know that that's not popular.
And whoever's listening here islike mental health-wise, you got
(18:35):
to understand that some peopledon't have a choice.
Like, you know, that's what Ithink the hardest part is
sometimes.
Like, people will choose to bein gangs.
Yeah, it's either that or worse.
And if you think about it,that's not a hell a great choice
to have.
SPEAKER_02 (18:48):
No, and they are making a choice, but their
choices are forced, they'redirected and limited too.
And so getting to work with thegang members, you see, like
there are reasons.
And absolutely, I had to alwayssee even the the worst criminals
as human, not monsters, humansmaking monstrous decisions,
(19:10):
maybe, but you see the gangmembers who they're poor, so
this is a way to earn somemoney.
They're threatened by thesurroundings, so they need
people with them.
They're abandoned, so they needbrotherhood.
There's I mean, there's so manyfactors that play into it.
It's and then there wasglorification, so they're
they're getting uh approval andfinding identity and being in
(19:35):
the gang, and and that's humanthat they would go after that.
So, yeah, you know, here's an18-year-old kid making poor
choices, right?
That's gonna happen, especiallyas those choices are directing
them down a similar path ofothers.
SPEAKER_01 (19:53):
The need for affiliation is really underex uh
people don't understand howimportant that is.
That's why we do join, you know,anything.
Basically, even our jobs arepart of a group.
Uh you know, sometimes we don'twant to be there, but most of
the time it's like, oh, well, Ican bitch and moan with these
people because they get it.
SPEAKER_02 (20:11):
Right.
We have common complaints, andthat that bonds us.
And so living in Chicago, I wasI was in an up-and-coming
neighborhood, and I laterlearned that up and coming means
it used to be worse.
It's still bad, but it used tobe worse.
And there would always be, youknow, kids outside like
fighting, tagging stuff.
(20:32):
And I went down once, it's like10:30, windows are open because
it's hot, and there are youknow, kids are down there
yelling.
And I go down and I got my gunon me and badge just in case.
But I go down and say, You guysgotta go home, you gotta shut
up, you gotta leave.
And like, here's this13-year-old kid who's been
causing havoc.
He goes, you know, so I'mlooking at him as like one more
(20:54):
problem.
And he says, What oh, what timeis it?
And I says, It's 10 30, man.
He goes, Oh my gosh, my mom'sgonna kill me.
Would you walk me home?
And that just splits from here'shere's a gang kid, here, here's
this nuisance, here's here'sthis object to oh, this is a
(21:16):
13-year-old kid whose mother'sgonna be pissed, and he's scared
of walking two blocks home.
He sees me as a protector as anadult, that you know, now he
went from gang guy to a13-year-old child, and that
helps then now to see this nextguy who grew up in this hard
land, like, yep, he probablywent through similar stuff.
SPEAKER_01 (21:40):
Well, you you know, and I think that that's
important to see people forpeople.
I think that that's one of thethings that sometimes, you know,
part of what I just said earlierabout when I worked in that
world.
I dehumanized humans a lotbecause I had to feel
comfortable with sometimes, youknow, sending him back to jail
or what.
(22:00):
Have you and I didn't do that,make that decision, obviously.
But you know, sometimes I had tohave that armor.
How do you separate that fromyou know, because I, you know,
the FBI agent came in and I'mgonna fucking set the law
straight, and then this13-year-old kid is scared, and
now you gotta switch the thescript, so to speak, in order to
be there for that kid.
SPEAKER_02 (22:20):
Well, for me, that's that was my base, that was my
default setting as a as aperson, as a pastor, and I think
most people have this to justlook at people as as
trustworthy, as good, and thenyou respond to what you're
seeing.
You you respond to how they'reacting, you know, past
(22:43):
attitudes.
And then that kid brought meback to, oh, yeah, if I'm in
church and there's a 13-year-oldkid, it doesn't matter if he's
black, white, whatever, and hesays, Hey, my mom's upset.
Can you help me?
Like now I'm going to actkindly.
Here I was being influenced bymy surroundings, coming down
(23:06):
with anger and judgment, andthat kid's simple thing brings
me back to, oh, that's right.
I'm a nice person who wants todo kind things to others and
not, you know, look at him withdisdain.
And so anytime that I wasgetting ready to arrest or
interact with a criminal, I hadto find, I had to go back and
(23:28):
find what connects me to them.
And so, I mean, these guys mightbe pedophiles, which people just
look at and say, kill them.
And I go, Oh, no, I'm here tobring justice, so I want a
confession.
I don't need to tell themthey're disgusting because they
already believe that.
Right.
I don't need to bring shame,they're full of shame, they're
(23:50):
just driven by forces, bypleasures that they either are
unwilling or unable to control.
And so now I'm coming to them.
It's like, okay, one guy I'minterviewing, he's telling me
how he loved the little kid thathe was with and had assaulted.
And I I have to think, I knowwhat that's like.
(24:12):
Not in his context, but I knowwhat that's like.
I have kids, I love them.
I have had girlfriends, I knowwhat that's like.
And so I have to now take awaythe judgment of yes, but you're
talking about a child half yourage and doesn't, you know, you
harmed him for his life.
I have to take that out.
unknown (24:32):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (24:32):
That'll be in that'll be in trial, but just
now keep connecting and buildingwith him so that we're just
having a conversation, and themind if I'm not damning him and
slamming the table and cursinghim, I think the mind brings him
to a place where this is a conthis is just talking.
(24:52):
This isn't an interrogation,this is a safe place where
you're not being judged.
SPEAKER_01 (24:57):
Uh I think that going back to what you said, you
know, it really is aboutreminding yourself of where a
person comes from.
And even though we don't comesometimes from that different
point of view as nicely as I cansay it, it made sense in their
brain.
And that that's like that's thedetachment sometimes that's
(25:19):
really hard for people becausepeople take it so personally.
SPEAKER_02 (25:23):
Yes, and and so there has to be an awareness and
reflection.
So I'm going in angry anddisgusted because I've already
been talking to the kid and thefamily, and I want vengeance,
but that should be coming in theform of justice, which is me
doing my job.
Okay, let's set this right, andnow I'm going to be, I'm gonna
(25:47):
use my energy to be that personthat I am otherwise.
Let's let's not make this aseparate context.
Let's make this a conversationI'm having in the break room,
let's make this thisconversation, right?
Just talking, let you know,making it safe in that moment.
What's crazy is when you dothose post-arrest
(26:10):
interrogations, I have foundthat the criminals are set in
this moment.
So there's a calculus that whatI say has future implications,
but they're most often caught inthis moment.
So if this moment is I'm notjudging you, but what you tell
me is going to get judged by ajury, they don't see that.
(26:33):
And so make this safe, and thatmakes my hammer so much bigger.
Now that's how I punch you inthe mouth by making you confess.
SPEAKER_01 (26:44):
Well, you know, in case you want to punch me in the
mouth, maybe we should go to ifyou're okay with standing for
another half hour, I'd love todo a second part with you
because I'd love to talk aboutirreverent, your book.
Yeah.
And I will need a copy, by theway.
I have not read it.
So for my audience who knows I'malways honest, I haven't read
it, but I can't wait to read it.
But can you stay for anotherhalf hour?
I think we can talk more aboutthe FBI, talk about your book.
(27:06):
Uh, there's plenty of things totalk about here.
SPEAKER_02 (27:09):
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01 (27:10):
All right.
So for those of you, this is theend of this first episode, but
please join us next week for thesecond part of this episode,
which is going to be fantastic.
And I hope to see you then.
SPEAKER_00 (27:21):
Please like, subscribe, and follow this
podcast on your favoriteplatform.
A glowing review is alwayshelpful.
And as a reminder, this podcastis for informational,
educational, and entertainmentpurposes only.
If you're struggling with amental health or substance abuse
issue, please reach out to aprofessional counselor for
consultation.
If you are in a mental healthcrisis, call 988 for assistance.
(27:45):
This number is available in theUnited States and Canada.
Welcome to Resilience Development in Action
with Steve Bisson.
This is the podcast dedicated tofirst responder mental health,
helping police, fire, EMS,dispatchers, and paramedics
create better growthenvironments for themselves and
their teams.
Let's get started.
SPEAKER_01 (00:29):
Well, hi everyone, and welcome to Resilience
Development in Action.
I'm so happy to meet EricRobinson.
You know, we meet peopledifferently.
I've said this many times on mypodcast.
And I met Eric through a podmatch.
Yes, it's not like a datingsite.
We were joking around about thatearlier, because our wiveslash
girlfriends will not be happyabout these things.
(00:50):
So anyway, it was great to readhis story and then we exchanged,
and I thought that that was agreat, you'd be a great guest.
But Eric Robinson, welcome toResilience Development in
Action.
SPEAKER_02 (00:59):
Thanks, Steve.
Also a pleasure on my end, too.
SPEAKER_01 (01:02):
You know, I looked at your book and I'm like, darn,
I should have read that book.
I didn't get a chance to look atit yet because the story's
fascinating, but I don't want totake away from you telling your
story.
But for me, going from, youknow, a specific job to another
like yours and then retiring andbeing to where you're at in your
spiritual life, your mentalhealth life, your physical life
(01:23):
is just fascinating to me.
But because I read a lot morethan probably most of my
audience at this point aboutyou, Eric, I probably should ask
you to introduce yourself.
SPEAKER_02 (01:33):
Sure.
I am a few months retired from24 years in the FBI, joined in
2002, and during the years, I'llgo through it real fast.
I worked drug cartels, gangs,public corruption, and civil
rights, organized crime, crimesagainst children, financial
crimes, national security, andhuman intelligence.
(01:54):
Along the way, did 15 years as aSWOT operator, and that was very
fulfilling.
Firearms and tacticalinstructor.
Got to see quite a few things.
And prior to that, I was aBaptist pastor.
So I preached my last sermon inthe church on Easter of 2002,
just happened to be.
(02:14):
The next Sunday, I was inQuantico, Virginia for the FBI
Academy.
And the Sunday after that, asthey're easing me into my law
enforcement career, I waspreaching in the chapel in the
FBI Academy because they didn'thave a chaplain and asked me to
fill in.
SPEAKER_01 (02:30):
Well, there's so many things that you just said
that seems to me that are veryimportant.
You know, I never know where toreally start because this is
always people's stories and Ilove their story.
The first thing that came tomind is the 2002 decided to go
to the FBI.
I'm like, all right, sorry, 9-11kicks in right away for me.
Is that what kind of like madeyou decide to go into a more law
(02:52):
enforcement type of job orsomething else?
SPEAKER_02 (02:55):
Or it it was something else.
And as you get into mentalhealth and resiliency, it was
for my mental health.
And it might seem odd to you,but I uh pastoring the church,
there were a number of factors.
The shorthand answer for me isthat I was incapable of
separating myself from thepeople's problems.
(03:16):
So they're I'm doing normalpastor stuff.
People are coming to me saying,hey, I've got this issue, and
I'm working through with them,but then I would carry it on
from there.
So better men have been able tofigure out how to not hold on to
that.
That wasn't me.
And the result of that was thestress gave me headaches every
(03:38):
single day for the final twoyears.
And I mean every day.
And while I enjoyed what I wasdoing and it was fulfilling, and
we were successful, we're doingwell.
There just came to a point whereI couldn't do it anymore.
Yeah, I had to decide likeeither I was going to choose to
make a move, or inevitably mybody would make that choice for
(03:59):
me, and I didn't want to seethat happen.
And so I looked at a few jobs,say, well, let's just start out
and see what's there.
And I I applied for one job thatI was overqualified for, and
they turned me down, and then Iapplied for one that I was
underqualified for, and theysaid, Yeah, sure.
So to nine to 9-11, I hadstudied Islam in the past.
(04:21):
I was trained to be a missionaryto Muslim cultures.
That course changed a bit, and Istayed safe-side and just went
through pastoring.
But my application was inprocess when 9-11 hit, and I'm
presuming that my background inworking with Muslims was a
factor in being hired because wehad an al-Qaeda problem.
(04:44):
And hey, this guy knows how tocontact Muslims, reach out to
him.
So I think the Bureau took achance on me for that.
And then, of course, once I goton board, they stuck me on a
drug squad.
SPEAKER_01 (04:55):
Yeah, that's why it's funny because when you
started talking, I'm like, andthen he ended up being on SWAT.
SPEAKER_02 (05:00):
Yeah, never handled a gun before.
SPEAKER_01 (05:02):
Oh, really?
Yeah.
So when you know, without beingtoo pushy, what how old were you
when you decided all this?
SPEAKER_02 (05:09):
I was that's not pushy.
SPEAKER_01 (05:11):
I was well, I know you're only 35, so that's my
gosh.
SPEAKER_02 (05:15):
My shoulder is 85.
SPEAKER_01 (05:18):
That's I'm shooting the fucking gun.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (05:21):
Oh my gosh.
I and and I love having theheadphones on because obviously
all those days at the range,like I I have found that even on
podcasts when people talk, I dothis because you know the
hearing starts to go.
I was 32, 33 when I got on, andthen didn't join SWAT until I
was 42.
(05:42):
So it's a young man's game, butI started pretty pretty ripe
running around with the youngerguys.
SPEAKER_01 (05:50):
Well, it's funny because the I want to go back to
a couple of things, but the onething I would say to you is that
if anything, I want my FBIpeople to be a little more
experienced than a 22-year-oldkid.
SPEAKER_02 (06:00):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (06:00):
But that's just me.
SPEAKER_02 (06:02):
Oh, yeah.
It's the same here.
And so the Bureau, if you'regonna be an agent, you have to
be you have to have a bachelor'sdegree and then at least three
years real world experience.
And even then, I mean, you know,kids who are 24, 25 say, oh, I
think I'm going to try.
I'm like, nah, man, you you yougotta get at least hit 27.
(06:23):
Get a little bit of time inthere where like you're you're
you're on the the front edgeedge of adult.
SPEAKER_01 (06:29):
Right.
I mean, you know, I go back tothere's so many things I would
say to that.
I believe that we shouldn't makebe able to make we we can I
don't mind voting, but likemaking any decisions about your
body or anything else shouldn'tbe done till at least 25.
Because that's when your yourfrontal prefrontal cortex gets
fully developed.
So that's where I think being inthe FBI, being 25 should be a
(06:52):
minimal requirement.
Oh, yeah, because I think that II I remember how I was at 23,
and you shouldn't give me a gunor intel for any shit.
Um that's me.
SPEAKER_02 (07:03):
Right.
And the FBI shouldn't beteaching you how to be an adult.
And so it's funny, when I camein, folks were older, and then
they went through a period ofyounger, and then they went
through a period of you know,guys were at least 30, and now
they're skewing younger again,trying to get more agents in.
SPEAKER_01 (07:22):
Yeah, I think that we're the there's a difference
in generation now.
People think about careers alittle differently, and I don't
know if it's better or worse.
I don't want to judge that.
I just think it's different.
Uh, one of the things you talkedabout that, you know, being a
pastor, sorry, this cement thehall podcast too, so gotta be
making, you know, you talkedabout separating yourself from
people's problems.
It's interesting because Ialways thought that being a
(07:43):
pastor, being a reverend, beinga type of person that will be in
charge of a congregation orwhatever you want to call it, a
a temple or anything else likethat.
I thought that they would talkabout you know the whole
boundary thing in the sense thathow to like leave it at the
fucking door.
In mental health, they do thatto us, and you learn how to do
(08:04):
it because you know, we just Idon't want to compare pastors to
mental health counselors becauseI think they're apples to
oranges, the same type of area,but not similar.
Yeah, we got you know, it'sfunny that they never taught you
guys how to kind of like leaveit at the door, so to speak.
SPEAKER_02 (08:19):
Yeah, in the church, they didn't to teach us how to
leave it at the fucking door.
The it uh part of it too is I Iwas the sole pastor, so I didn't
have you know others to interactwith.
That was my fault.
I was fairly young and didn'trealize what I needed.
So, you know, here I am guttingit out, you know, with the
(08:40):
headaches, trying to getthrough.
Running was the only thing thathelped.
That if I ran, then no headache,and then I'd have a bit of an
afterglow of like, oh, okay, I'mstill at peace, and then it
would hit.
I know it was self-imposed, butobviously there was some truth
to this that as a pastor, I hadto wear a mask, I had to be this
(09:01):
person, and so that was part ofwhy I wasn't sharing things with
other people.
And again, I know that wasself-imposed, but it's not out
of whole cloth.
Like clearly there was that, youknow, at least a notion of,
yeah, yeah, yeah, we need ourpastor to always be right,
doesn't like to smoke cigars,doesn't like to drink bourbon,
(09:21):
doesn't like to watch rated Rmovies.
Okay, so now I gotta hidemyself.
So that added to it as well.
SPEAKER_01 (09:27):
Well, I think that that's a good point, right?
Being yourself is key.
You know, one of the things thatI talk about in my field is that
some therapists learn that wholedetachment and all that.
That's what they still teach usin school.
I don't know.
I haven't been in school in like20 years, maybe they don't.
But for me, I because of thework I do, if anything, if I am
not authentic or I'm not beingmyself, or I kind of hide who I
(09:49):
am, I am screwed with thispopulation because first
responders can smell a fake froma mile away.
Yeah.
And I think that that's where Ilike tell people like the worst
thing that could happen ispeople saw who I was.
And I think if that's the worstthing you could ever say, I
guess I'm okay.
SPEAKER_02 (10:04):
Yeah.
And what was good for me is whenI got into the FBI, obviously
there's stressors there, but itdidn't affect me the same.
All I had to do was be a goodFBI agent, do the job, and you
know, the results happened oneway or the other.
Disappointed maybe, but notdisappointed in the same way
that I'm struggling with itbecause that's a family breaking
(10:25):
up, like and it's still gonna bebroken up.
This is you know, bad guy getsaway and he's in the wind.
Okay, somebody'll catch him.
Guy's not getting indicted whenhe should be.
Yeah, disappointing.
Society will get him, he'll getcaught somewhere.
So it just didn't affect me aspersonally.
SPEAKER_01 (10:45):
Well, you know, that's interesting because I
hear you say that.
And having worked in the jailfor a couple of years, worked at
parole, worked at probationmyself, again, mental health
only.
I will not steal any valor.
People know that on my podcast.
It's just I've always been amental health guy.
I never worked per se in the lawenforcement or first responder
world.
You gotta deal with criminals inthe undervalued society.
(11:08):
I'll be perfectly honest withyou.
When I worked in those fields,sometimes it affected me
mentally.
You talk about, oh, family'sreally affecting me, FBI not so
much.
So yeah, what's it like to bewith like these guys?
And then you go, like, ah, okay,let's go home and have a cigar
in a bourbon.
SPEAKER_02 (11:24):
Yeah, so I I I I think of it this way like there
had to be some reflection.
Because if you have this notionof, oh my gosh, there's so many
criminals or so much crime outin the world, it's it's like
somebody who's a bird watchersaying, Man, there's so many
birds out here.
Well, every day when I check in,like I'm on the computer looking
(11:47):
for bad guys, I'm staring at atbad guys.
Well, I have to be aware andthen realize that's work, that's
what I'm doing for real.
I have to be interacting withother people to show, oh, right.
You know, I don't I'm not gonnaget so cynical to think
everyone's like this that, yeah,Steve, you seem like a nice guy,
(12:08):
but I know there's dirt on you,and so I don't trust you.
There is, but there is, but it'sit's it's it's the kind of dirt
that's okay.
It's fine.
But yeah, uh I mean my dad usedto tell me, and we get in some
discussions, and he'd say, youknow, you're you're very you're
in a bubble in the church, likeyou don't realize what the real
(12:30):
world is.
And he was a truck driver, so hewasn't talking about criminal
stuff, it's just like, hey,you're talking to people who are
homogeneous, they're like you,they're from your town, you
know, they're similar ages,similar socioeconomic
backgrounds.
And you know, we would discussthat or argue, and then I get in
the FBI and like like always, mydad was right.
(12:52):
You know, I'm seeing you so muchdifferent.
I'm in Chicago talking to gangmembers who are completely
different than how I grew up.
I'm talking to teen prostituteswho are not like me.
And you know, I'm talking withguys who are business managers
stealing money, millionaires,but stealing more money, and
(13:15):
they're not like me.
So it was it was eye-opening toget into a new world and see
different types of people, butthen also see the commonalities
of hey, we're still human too.
SPEAKER_01 (13:33):
Just a quick break, guys.
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I actually bought one of theirhoodies, it was amazing, and I
really enjoyed wearing it.
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Deemed Fit is a firstresponder-owned activewear and a
leisure brand.
And one thing that I genuinelylike about them is that they
support different causes.
I actually gave a few people Iknow who work with first
(13:55):
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I know they're talking to them.
They do a lot of initiatives andcollections that are based on
mental health for firstresponders.
And if you go there right nowand you buy anything, including
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(14:19):
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checkout to save.
Now, right back to the episode.
Well, you you talk aboutinteracting with those
individuals on, you know, andhow they're different than us.
(14:41):
You can't tell me you didn'thear like some stories that were
also heartbreaking.
I mean, when you hear about youtalk about teen prostitution, I
know we use the name humantrafficking now.
Um it's pretty similar, if youask me.
Um I know people will say it'sslightly different.
Okay, whatever.
How do you deal with that?
Because that to me, like that'sthe that was the hard part is
(15:02):
hearing like the victims,particularly.
Yep.
Because you know, people willbe, oh, she's a prostitute.
Yeah, but when you're forcedinto it, are you a prostitute?
SPEAKER_02 (15:12):
Yeah, so what was often happening, and so if
they're doing it on their own,then it's just them
prostituting.
When an adult gets involved, nowit's sex trafficking.
And the difference between youand me and the pimps we'd run
into is here's a 16-year-oldgirl who's a runaway, parents
(15:32):
are useless, drug addicts,absent, abusive.
And so she's out on her own andshe's been prostituting because
she needs to survive.
And unlike you or me, this adultmale comes by and says, I would
like to exploit that.
You know, you and I would say,How can I help you?
Let's get you out of this.
But they would say, Here's amoney-making opportunity.
(15:54):
So most times, there's alwaysdifferences, but most times
these pimps were coming along,they're looking for the girls so
they can add them to the stable,but they're now going to exploit
them further.
When we would prosecute thesepimps, they would so often fight
against the charges because thisis their mindset.
(16:15):
And this is again part of thatfascinating seeing humans at
work.
She was already doing this.
Like I was doing, like I didn'tforce her into this.
She was already having sex withmen.
I I helped her earn more money.
I drove her places, I took careof her, I gave her gifts,
leaving out the manipulation,the abuse, the inherent evil of
(16:39):
not caring for someone introuble, but instead pushing
them further into that.
So we would have so many ofthese victims, and the
prosecutors would say, Yeah,she's just not a good witness.
I'm like, no, no, no, no.
This isn't about the victim.
This is about the adult carryingout the crime.
Because she might just you knowthe prosecutors look at it and
(17:02):
go, Yeah, but after you arrestedhim, she's back out on the
street.
I'm like, we're going after him.
We're going after the evil.
We got to find some way to getsome foundations in to help her.
But our job is justice, we'regoing after him.
SPEAKER_01 (17:18):
And going after them sometimes is very complex.
Like you said, they they protectthemselves in the well, I'm just
helping here.
Right.
Um, omitting a lot of the otherstuff.
SPEAKER_02 (17:28):
Well, and that's like that in court, that's not
gonna fly.
Like, you know, go ahead and trythat one.
You're gonna get hammered.
But in their mind, hey, I Idon't understand why you think
I'm I'm not a trafficker, I'mnot forcing it.
There were some who did, butthat's their mindset.
unknown (17:45):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (17:46):
And it wasn't necessarily like you and I might
have that mindset in order toassuage our guilt and tamp it
down for them.
That's just that's just how theyrecollected what they're doing.
Meanwhile, they were part of agroup, a society, a
micro-society, that praised thistype of male behavior that said,
(18:07):
This is how you are, more of aman, how you show your strength
by taking on these women.
SPEAKER_01 (18:14):
Well, I think that think about prostitution.
I also, you said you're dealingwith gang members, sometimes
that gang-on-gang violence, youknow.
Some people, you know, I'veheard many people like, well, if
they kill each other, that'sfine.
But there's also got to be acompassionate side where, you
know, they're still humans, andI know that that's not popular.
And whoever's listening here islike mental health-wise, you got
(18:35):
to understand that some peopledon't have a choice.
Like, you know, that's what Ithink the hardest part is
sometimes.
Like, people will choose to bein gangs.
Yeah, it's either that or worse.
And if you think about it,that's not a hell a great choice
to have.
SPEAKER_02 (18:48):
No, and they are making a choice, but their
choices are forced, they'redirected and limited too.
And so getting to work with thegang members, you see, like
there are reasons.
And absolutely, I had to alwayssee even the the worst criminals
as human, not monsters, humansmaking monstrous decisions,
(19:10):
maybe, but you see the gangmembers who they're poor, so
this is a way to earn somemoney.
They're threatened by thesurroundings, so they need
people with them.
They're abandoned, so they needbrotherhood.
There's I mean, there's so manyfactors that play into it.
It's and then there wasglorification, so they're
they're getting uh approval andfinding identity and being in
(19:35):
the gang, and and that's humanthat they would go after that.
So, yeah, you know, here's an18-year-old kid making poor
choices, right?
That's gonna happen, especiallyas those choices are directing
them down a similar path ofothers.
SPEAKER_01 (19:53):
The need for affiliation is really underex uh
people don't understand howimportant that is.
That's why we do join, you know,anything.
Basically, even our jobs arepart of a group.
Uh you know, sometimes we don'twant to be there, but most of
the time it's like, oh, well, Ican bitch and moan with these
people because they get it.
SPEAKER_02 (20:11):
Right.
We have common complaints, andthat that bonds us.
And so living in Chicago, I wasI was in an up-and-coming
neighborhood, and I laterlearned that up and coming means
it used to be worse.
It's still bad, but it used tobe worse.
And there would always be, youknow, kids outside like
fighting, tagging stuff.
(20:32):
And I went down once, it's like10:30, windows are open because
it's hot, and there are youknow, kids are down there
yelling.
And I go down and I got my gunon me and badge just in case.
But I go down and say, You guysgotta go home, you gotta shut
up, you gotta leave.
And like, here's this13-year-old kid who's been
causing havoc.
He goes, you know, so I'mlooking at him as like one more
(20:54):
problem.
And he says, What oh, what timeis it?
And I says, It's 10 30, man.
He goes, Oh my gosh, my mom'sgonna kill me.
Would you walk me home?
And that just splits from here'shere's a gang kid, here, here's
this nuisance, here's here'sthis object to oh, this is a
(21:16):
13-year-old kid whose mother'sgonna be pissed, and he's scared
of walking two blocks home.
He sees me as a protector as anadult, that you know, now he
went from gang guy to a13-year-old child, and that
helps then now to see this nextguy who grew up in this hard
land, like, yep, he probablywent through similar stuff.
SPEAKER_01 (21:40):
Well, you you know, and I think that that's
important to see people forpeople.
I think that that's one of thethings that sometimes, you know,
part of what I just said earlierabout when I worked in that
world.
I dehumanized humans a lotbecause I had to feel
comfortable with sometimes, youknow, sending him back to jail
or what.
(22:00):
Have you and I didn't do that,make that decision, obviously.
But you know, sometimes I had tohave that armor.
How do you separate that fromyou know, because I, you know,
the FBI agent came in and I'mgonna fucking set the law
straight, and then this13-year-old kid is scared, and
now you gotta switch the thescript, so to speak, in order to
be there for that kid.
SPEAKER_02 (22:20):
Well, for me, that's that was my base, that was my
default setting as a as aperson, as a pastor, and I think
most people have this to justlook at people as as
trustworthy, as good, and thenyou respond to what you're
seeing.
You you respond to how they'reacting, you know, past
(22:43):
attitudes.
And then that kid brought meback to, oh, yeah, if I'm in
church and there's a 13-year-oldkid, it doesn't matter if he's
black, white, whatever, and hesays, Hey, my mom's upset.
Can you help me?
Like now I'm going to actkindly.
Here I was being influenced bymy surroundings, coming down
(23:06):
with anger and judgment, andthat kid's simple thing brings
me back to, oh, that's right.
I'm a nice person who wants todo kind things to others and
not, you know, look at him withdisdain.
And so anytime that I wasgetting ready to arrest or
interact with a criminal, I hadto find, I had to go back and
(23:28):
find what connects me to them.
And so, I mean, these guys mightbe pedophiles, which people just
look at and say, kill them.
And I go, Oh, no, I'm here tobring justice, so I want a
confession.
I don't need to tell themthey're disgusting because they
already believe that.
Right.
I don't need to bring shame,they're full of shame, they're
(23:50):
just driven by forces, bypleasures that they either are
unwilling or unable to control.
And so now I'm coming to them.
It's like, okay, one guy I'minterviewing, he's telling me
how he loved the little kid thathe was with and had assaulted.
And I I have to think, I knowwhat that's like.
(24:12):
Not in his context, but I knowwhat that's like.
I have kids, I love them.
I have had girlfriends, I knowwhat that's like.
And so I have to now take awaythe judgment of yes, but you're
talking about a child half yourage and doesn't, you know, you
harmed him for his life.
I have to take that out.
unknown (24:32):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (24:32):
That'll be in that'll be in trial, but just
now keep connecting and buildingwith him so that we're just
having a conversation, and themind if I'm not damning him and
slamming the table and cursinghim, I think the mind brings him
to a place where this is a conthis is just talking.
(24:52):
This isn't an interrogation,this is a safe place where
you're not being judged.
SPEAKER_01 (24:57):
Uh I think that going back to what you said, you
know, it really is aboutreminding yourself of where a
person comes from.
And even though we don't comesometimes from that different
point of view as nicely as I cansay it, it made sense in their
brain.
And that that's like that's thedetachment sometimes that's
(25:19):
really hard for people becausepeople take it so personally.
SPEAKER_02 (25:23):
Yes, and and so there has to be an awareness and
reflection.
So I'm going in angry anddisgusted because I've already
been talking to the kid and thefamily, and I want vengeance,
but that should be coming in theform of justice, which is me
doing my job.
Okay, let's set this right, andnow I'm going to be, I'm gonna
(25:47):
use my energy to be that personthat I am otherwise.
Let's let's not make this aseparate context.
Let's make this a conversationI'm having in the break room,
let's make this thisconversation, right?
Just talking, let you know,making it safe in that moment.
What's crazy is when you dothose post-arrest
(26:10):
interrogations, I have foundthat the criminals are set in
this moment.
So there's a calculus that whatI say has future implications,
but they're most often caught inthis moment.
So if this moment is I'm notjudging you, but what you tell
me is going to get judged by ajury, they don't see that.
(26:33):
And so make this safe, and thatmakes my hammer so much bigger.
Now that's how I punch you inthe mouth by making you confess.
SPEAKER_01 (26:44):
Well, you know, in case you want to punch me in the
mouth, maybe we should go to ifyou're okay with standing for
another half hour, I'd love todo a second part with you
because I'd love to talk aboutirreverent, your book.
Yeah.
And I will need a copy, by theway.
I have not read it.
So for my audience who knows I'malways honest, I haven't read
it, but I can't wait to read it.
But can you stay for anotherhalf hour?
I think we can talk more aboutthe FBI, talk about your book.
(27:06):
Uh, there's plenty of things totalk about here.
SPEAKER_02 (27:09):
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01 (27:10):
All right.
So for those of you, this is theend of this first episode, but
please join us next week for thesecond part of this episode,
which is going to be fantastic.
And I hope to see you then.
SPEAKER_00 (27:21):
Please like, subscribe, and follow this
podcast on your favoriteplatform.
A glowing review is alwayshelpful.
And as a reminder, this podcastis for informational,
educational, and entertainmentpurposes only.
If you're struggling with amental health or substance abuse
issue, please reach out to aprofessional counselor for
consultation.
If you are in a mental healthcrisis, call 988 for assistance.
(27:45):
This number is available in theUnited States and Canada.
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