January 9, 2026 • 31 mins
In part 2 with Alexa Silva, we discuss how love doesn’t clock out when the tones drop. We sat down to unpack what really happens when a first responder’s world of shift work, hypervigilance, and on-call stress collides with the everyday demands of family life—and why even strong couples can drift into silence, scorekeeping, and resentment without clear structure and care.
Across a candid, fast-moving conversation, we dig into how intimacy has to evolve over time, especially when schedules are brutal and sleep is scarce. We talk about the danger of tallying sex and affection, the quiet slide into emotional affairs powered by loneliness and praise, and the small, steady actions that rebuild safety: consistent compliments, micro-moments of touch, and explicit “ask for what you need” scripts. You’ll hear practical frameworks for decompression after shifts, deciding whether you want listening or solutions, and using shared calendars to lower friction when overtime or call-outs derail plans.
We also get honest about money, overtime, and the resentment loop that forms when one partner feels like both parents while the other chases a bigger paycheck. There’s a path out: monthly “state of us” check-ins, clear rules for spending, and tradeoffs made in daylight instead of assumptions made in anger. We cover role clarity—your spouse can be your partner, not your therapist—plus the kind of self-care that actually restores a nervous system hammered by trauma exposure. Whether you’re a cop, firefighter, medic, dispatcher, or the person holding down the fort at home, these tools meet the reality of your life.
If you’re ready to replace mind reading with honest asks and turn resentment into repair, hit play. Then tell us what changed after you tried one tool. Subscribe, share with your crew, and leave a review to help more first responder families find the support they deserve.
To reach Alexa, here is the link: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/therapists/alexa-silva-chelmsford-ma/1140390
Freed.ai: We’ll Do Your SOAP Notes!Freed AI converts conversations into SOAP note.Use code Steve50 for $50 off the 1st month!
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SPEAKER_00 (00:01):
Welcome to Resilience Development in Action
with Steve Bisson.
This is the podcast dedicated tofirst responder mental health,
helping police, fire, EMS,dispatchers, and paramedics
create better growthenvironments for themselves and
their teams.
Let's get started.ai.
SPEAKER_02 (00:37):
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I'm gonna keep on talking aboutit because I love it.
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(01:19):
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And I highly encourage you to doso.
Well, I want to continue on thatidea that you just mentioned
because I think that makesperfect sense.
I think I think that what weforget is the impact of
(02:02):
substance use on the families,and particularly, I know you
work with couples.
Uh I give you a lot of credit.
Uh I find couples counseling sodifficult because, again,
correct me if I'm wrong.
I would say that 90% of thepeople who came to see me were
way too down the line to get thesupport they actually needed.
Uh and so they wanted me to fixeverything within a session or
(02:24):
two so that, you know, uh shecan get more of a partner that
supports her and he can get moresex out of her.
SPEAKER_01 (02:30):
And I'm sorry for vulgarity, but hey, no, that's
that's a very common thing,absolutely, that we see.
SPEAKER_02 (02:36):
So I think that what I would say is that not only
does it like substance affectthat that's family, but let's
talk a little bit about couplescounseling and family counseling
in general.
I know that you do a lot morethan I do with that.
You know, I I think thatprobably hits home a little bit
for you because you know, youare married to the job, and I
think that that plays a factortoo.
But want to hear more about yourexperience talking with first
(02:57):
responders, couples, and allthat fun stuff.
SPEAKER_01 (03:00):
Yeah.
So one of the big reasons why Iwent into it is because I was
living it even more at home.
And I kind of thought, oh, youknow, there's things that I'm
doing right and there's thingsthat I'm doing wrong, but it all
kind of, you know, cametogether.
And I don't even remember howI've got my first couple first
responder couple, but the morethat I started to put it out
there, I think the more thatpeople wanted to come because
(03:23):
again, it is a very specializedfield.
I I don't even know how manyfirst responder clinicians
advertise that they do that forcouples counseling.
But again, I think havingcultural competency, because you
you hit the nail on the headwhen you said some people want
to come in and fix everything inone to two sessions.
And that's why I my vetting hasbecome a lot more thorough, too,
(03:45):
I think, in in the last year,because people will come in and
again when we're at the pointof, I mean, take away being a
first responder to marriage orfamily, but just it's
challenging alone, right?
Like sharing a space withsomeone raising kids, you have
all the stressors at home, butthen put on being with the first
responders and people not beinghome, right?
And for example, I'll give ahypothetical.
(04:07):
My husband could walk throughthe door in in a 48-hour shift
and not have any sleep.
And to me, I'm looking at itthrough the lens of, well, I had
to do everything at home withtwo young kids, right?
I I don't have the bandwidth nowto be able to ask you how you're
doing.
When you come through that door,I expect and I need or I want to
be able to have you take thekids so I can have a break,
(04:29):
right?
Or I need to be able to maybe goto work and it's just kind of
like doing the divorce drop-offin a parking lot, right?
I've done that multiple times,but not because I'm divorced,
but because, you know, oneperson's coming off shift and I
have to go to work and you'reswitching cars and daycare.
But I can't at that point, Ican't look through the through
the lens of how was your night?
How, because maybe I didn't havea good night, right?
(04:50):
Because the kids were up allnight.
And no matter what you wentthrough, what I'm going through,
I need you to understand.
But he or she that's walkingthrough the door, right?
I mean, they may not have amoment to have that what I call
the right the reintegrationperiod of coming off a shift to
coming home or to bring downyour cortisol levels because and
then what do they do, right?
They shut down after work, theymay engage in alcohol, or they
(05:12):
might just completely they'redesensitized.
And we, and the more that you dothis, we don't know how to then
connect with the people at home,right?
And intimacy is a big thingemotionally and physically.
It's just, I just had all theseinteresting, or maybe it was a
quiet night, but my sleep isnever the same because I'm
hearing the tones, whatever thatcomes with it.
I had some really fucked upcalls, and then you want me to
(05:32):
come home and act likeeverything's fine.
And that's why body language isreally important.
I always bring that up incouples counseling because one
person's body language may bedifferent than another, right?
And what someone needs.
Sometimes people need physicaltouch, sometimes their partner
doesn't.
Sometimes they need to sit down,have that emotional balance of
having a conversation.
But how can you do that when onepartner is their job is
(05:55):
completely to put up that wall,right?
And be able to do their job inhigh risk situations.
And the other person may be alsoworking or they're staying at
home with the kids, and that'sreally hard.
And constantly you're what'sgoing through your mind is that
you're responsible for someoneelse, right?
And when do you have a momentfor yourself?
And if you don't have thatbalance or moment for yourself,
(06:16):
how can you then be a goodfoundation for your partner?
Right.
And in when we first get into arelationship or marriage, we're
it's we don't think about, oh,how do we want to do all these
things, right?
We're just in the thick of it.
It's exciting, right?
You get married, you have afamily, you have a job, and then
retirement.
We kind of look at it from likethe chronic timeline, but there
are so many things that you haveto change and adapt within those
(06:38):
years, right?
I went back to that five, I'llsay five, seven years when we
look at a family.
Things pivot, right?
Even when kids become teenagersor once someone is on the job
for five years versus 20, right?
Or you wake up and when was thelast time you actually went on a
date with your partner?
Did you want to go on a datewith your partner?
Right.
Right.
And then we even throw in theother thing, right?
The alcohol use that affectsrelationships, any kind of
(07:01):
addiction.
And then also cheating.
It's really hard.
People, one one of the thingsthat I always want to point out,
right, when we're talking aboutother people or just human
behavior in general is we judgeso often, especially in the
first responder world, right?
But until it happens to you, Ithink it's very different,
right?
Like we always say, oh, thatperson cheated, right?
Or that person has an uncle.
(07:21):
But until it happens to you, Idon't know if you would walk out
of that situation, right?
You don't know what's going tohappen.
So I think that's another addedlayer in couples counseling when
I'm working with people isreally making sure that we're
protecting our space.
And it's not right, we're nottalking about it at work.
We're not talking about it,talking about it at our family.
Because being a first respondercouple, sometimes it can become
(07:43):
already very public, right?
Because of our jobs and likeother people.
We have other support systems.
For example, a mom might have asister or their mom that's
helping co-parent with themwhile their partner's off doing
what 72-hour shifts all thetime.
Right?
All these different things.
But I really try to bring itback to don't compare other
people.
People in the first responderfield that we're always
(08:04):
comparing, especially ourrelationships to other people.
Well, that person at work,right?
They have, they go and do that,they spend that amount of money,
right?
They can, they go out on datesor, you know, their kids do this
and that.
And I'm just, we have to startfrom the ground up.
And sometimes it's restartingeverything because you are not
who you were when you firstbecame in a relationship,
sometimes, right?
And the job can change you, buteven parenting can change you,
(08:26):
right?
Just aging together.
And I mean, that's that's basicfundamentals of couples
counseling, but it's adding thefirst responder, it's very
different.
I mean, because again, theintimacy, physical and emotional
is key.
And that's where it's reallyhard because imagine intimacy,
right?
If you're one partner and youwant physical intimacy, right?
But your partner's not eventhere.
(08:48):
Or you don't know how you don'tknow how to ask for it, right?
It can become very awkward.
And then we do this thing, whichis the mind reading, right?
Well, my partner came home andhe or she seems really mad at
me, so they must be mad at me,versus no, they're exhausted,
right?
And then my partner at home,like I they're not talking to
me.
They must be really mad or orthey don't care about me.
(09:09):
So I'm just gonna shut off.
Like that's I'm mad at them now,right?
When we do the mind reading andwe don't know how to support
this different shift ofschedules and changes and
parenting, it becomes reallyvolatile.
SPEAKER_02 (09:26):
I and think that you said so many things here that
are sorry.
SPEAKER_01 (09:29):
I just went on a nice tangent.
I just I get very, verypassionate about it because
Alexa, we we don't apologize onthis podcast.
SPEAKER_02 (09:36):
We're just ourselves.
We don't worry about that shit.
If I wanted to interrupt you, Icould don't worry about that
shit.
Because I I want to say that yousaid a lot of good things
because I want to like even godown a few of these what I would
call rabbit holes becausethey're very important.
You talk about intimacy.
What I I find with intimacy, theother part that's always lost on
most couples, but I find thatparticularly in the first
(09:58):
responder world, uh intimacychanges in time.
Uh and you know, like when youhave no kids and you can have
intimacy, like sex regularly,because there's nothing in the
job, is only 24 on, 24 off.
You just have your job and maybean apartment.
There's a lot of like stuff thatwe can do physically.
Uh but as you grow, you know,you've had a couple of kids, or
(10:19):
you have a better job, orthere's other stressors around
the house, the intimacy has tochange, it has to be like
vulnerability, it has to be withasking how people are doing.
And I think that a lot of peopledon't see that change in
intimacy grow and they expectthe same thing.
And brings me to another thingthat happens a lot.
And I don't know if that happensin your couple's counseling.
Well, you know, I wasaffectionate because I sat on
(10:42):
the couch with her or him for acouple of hours.
They owe me sex now, or theyit's only been we're only having
sex once a month, or sorry, I'mvery if this offends anyone, I
don't care, but you can change achannel.
But to me, that's all importantshit that we we don't talk
about.
And it's not like you know, ifyou start going, well, you know,
(11:02):
we only had sex twice thismonth, so I don't owe you or
whatever.
I it it gets really fuckingdangerous when the scorekeeping
takes place.
And I see that with theevolution of intimacy and people
staying at the old ways versuslooking at it as it just changes
with them.
SPEAKER_01 (11:19):
No, you have to talk about these things, and again,
right?
Intimacy and sex, it's one ofthe most awkward conversations,
but we have to talk about thatbecause again, right, we look at
the cheating part, right?
Sometimes I'll ask, well, whydid that happen?
And I didn't even initiate it,right?
Someone came up to me and maybesaid something that made me feel
good, right?
Or gave me a compliment.
And that's the key thing, right?
(11:39):
That even the emotionalconnection there.
Somebody came up and gave me acompliment, right?
Or told me that maybe I lookednice, right?
Or I did a good job atsomething.
That's that's the basic, right?
Because then we shut down.
And the common relationshippatterns that I see with first
responder couples, you know, isemotional numbing, right?
It's the difficulty of sharingfeelings, it's role confusion,
(12:02):
right?
One partner is on command modeat work and the other and brings
that home.
And it spills over, right?
Like, oh, you're always adetective while they're actual
detective at work, right?
Hypervigilance, right?
The difficulty relaxing.
And when the other partner wantsyou to come home and like
expects potentially like a nice,calm, warming physical
(12:23):
environment, right?
Perhaps the person's coming homefrom the first responder role,
they can't do that.
And then communicationbreakdown, right?
You start to avoid eye contact,right?
We do the mind reading and youyou can't show or express your
emotions.
The shift work strain.
I mean, that's a given, right?
You miss the holidays, you72-hour shifts, right?
(12:43):
Or how many days on and off, andkids and one person becomes both
parents.
And then the family load inbalance, right?
At the partner at home iscarrying most of the childhood
household duties or whateverthat looks like.
And it's the impact on partners,right?
So feeling like they'recompeting with the job, right?
Carrying that emotional load forthe family, and then feeling
(13:04):
unseen, disconnected, or lonely.
And then the other thing, too,is you worry about the safety,
right, of your partner on shift.
That's another thing.
And then, so what happens,right?
Stir all that bad shit into apot, resentment.
You get resentment, right?
And then repair becomes limited.
And that's why you brought upthat point.
(13:26):
People come in and they wanteverything fixed in a few
sessions.
But for me, my job is really tolook at that toolbox.
Sometimes there is no toolbox.
So, how do we get the tools tobuild the toolbox to then put
the tools in the toolbox?
SPEAKER_02 (13:41):
Right.
I mean, resentment, you hit thenail on the head.
I think the resentment occurs.
That's why, like, eventually itbecomes easier for you know, we
see we always say firstresponders cheat.
Well, I've seen spouses of firstresponders cheat too, and vice
versa.
And that's not the number onedivorce rate, by the way.
Everyone knows that it's uhfinances, it's actually not
(14:02):
cheating, but cheating, it'sbecause of that resentment, and
she doesn't understand me, hedoesn't understand me.
I'll just go find my lovesomewhere else because you don't
have the same obligations, youdon't need to go mow the lawn or
shovel the walk or clean thehouse, or you know, so it
becomes easy to go cheat.
I mean, and because that's a loteasier, there's not the other
(14:23):
built-up shit that's there.
SPEAKER_01 (14:25):
Yeah, and you just added that other huge thing with
the finances, too, right?
Sometimes we're working a lotbecause we need the financial
income, you know, or if we havegoals or you know, we're living
a certain lifestyle, orpotentially right, one person
stays at home.
unknown (14:39):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (14:40):
Like finances are huge too.
And right when we look at likeseparate accounts versus joint
accounts, and if someone'sworking, for example, a lot of
overtime, they may have likethat's my money, right?
Versus our it's everyone'sdifferent with their views of
money.
But if you're not havingconversations at all, how how do
we understand what's going on?
And that's where the resentmentjust keeps building.
(15:00):
So, how do we change that?
What are your thoughts on that?
SPEAKER_02 (15:04):
I think that open conversation is so important.
And for me, one of the thingsthat I would say that not being
in the first responder world andbeing divorced myself, one of
the things that we started doingis we took each other for
granted.
And we just like we were passingships.
She owns her own business, I ownmy own business.
And I'm not saying anything badabout her at all.
(15:25):
I this is not this is not numberone the place, but more
importantly, I don't say badthings about my ex because we
were both as guilty, in myopinion.
She can own up her own stuff ifshe wants to, but I'm gonna own
up to mine.
Uh and it was really like takingher for granted and not worrying
about it and scorekeeping, andhow come she has money for this?
And we had a job account, butshe had a side, and uh, she she
(15:46):
would argue that uh you know, wewe would do finances
differently.
And I think that what I I tellpeople is that you don't have
those often open conversations,uh you're already fucking
yourself over.
You know, having an importantlike we talked about it earlier,
and I'm I don't want to go wecan go continue talking about
finances, but even around youknow intimacy and sex.
Uh and it's not about likescorekeeping, but it's about
(16:10):
like you know, it's moreimportant for me on Mondays uh
to be with my girlfriend and wehave supper.
There's we sit on a couch wherewell the dog keeps us from being
like too close, but we just sitthere and watch TV together.
Uh uh and then I go home becauseshe has to get up early.
I gotta get but that thosemoments are like priceless to
me, and we both had to put thatas a priority in our lives.
(16:31):
Uh but if you don't talk aboutit, then you don't know and you
create the bitterness, theanger.
Uh and before I forget, Ichecked on our resource list
that we have for the B BBBprogram, uh, and there is they
haven't put it on yours yet, sowe're gonna put it on there.
But there's only four cliniciansout of fifty that are vetted by
first responder clinicians uhthat do couples counseling.
(16:53):
That's a low ass number, andthen only hard.
And then there's only two thattake insurance.
But I just want to mention that.
But yeah, I think that when youtalk about what you gotta do,
you know, and uh being able totake no for an answer.
I know that some people say noone says no to me.
But being able to say no aboutdo you want to go somewhere?
(17:13):
No, don't need an explanationsometimes, they don't feel like
it, but also being able to takethe no as an as a yeah as an
answer sometimes is very hard,particularly for first
responders, but in general.
SPEAKER_01 (17:24):
And that's that's another thing, right?
Is communication style.
So, for example, you may havesomeone that needs to have
closure at the end of anargument, right?
And say, let's talk about thisversus someone else, right?
Potentially, I I think it's bothsides, first responder and the
spouse, but someone may need toleave and decompress, right?
(17:44):
And then that other person feelslike, oh, look, you're walking
away, right?
Attachment issues, right?
Abandonment.
And the other person's like, Ijust need space.
This is how I decompress.
So communication styles arehuge, but all the things that
you said are are key, right?
That communication.
So one of the things that wealways look at, some of the some
of the things to add to thetoolbox is schedule
decompression for each person,right?
(18:06):
After shift, whether it's theparenting shift or the first
responder.
I always say try to have 20 to45 minutes alone.
The saying the no, right?
If you say no so many times,then they're gonna stop asking.
So it's when what do we put ourenergy into, right?
Do we want to go onto the onthis date and get a babysitter
on Friday versus I I don't wantto do this because I had a
(18:26):
really long week and actuallylistening to your partner.
unknown (18:30):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (18:30):
I don't go ahead about you, but I find that
sometimes, you know, likeliterally, maybe maybe I'm old
and my kids are a little older,which helps.
But me and my girlfriendbasically, like Friday nights,
she works a pretty stressfuljob.
She's been on the podcastbefore.
I work a stressful job too,obviously.
So Fridays, we may talk on thephone, uh, but otherwise come
(18:53):
seven or eight o'clock, we'reboth in our own houses and we're
relaxing, and we don't reallywant to talk to anyone.
And that's not an attack on ourrelationship, it's not an attack
on it's like we have stressfuljobs, we're exhausted.
And I think that having thoseconversations and being okay
with it, not feeling it's arejection and talk about
attachment issues, like let'slet's not even talk about IFS
(19:16):
and all that stuff that plays afactor for different couples and
families in particular.
But I think that that's thestuff that we internal family
systems for those of us.
I just want to make sure Imention that I hate people who
use acronyms but don't explainthem.
I think that that's what you gotto remember is that that
communication is key.
So, you know, I know mygirlfriend's gonna be listening
to this and going, oh yeah, whatwhat yeah?
(19:37):
I said, well, because it's notself-evident for a whole lot of
people to have that conversationand saying, uh, you know, when I
get back from work, sometimes Ineed 40 minutes.
Uh and if it was a hard day,maybe it's an hour, maybe it's
only 20 minutes.
Maybe it's like I had a goodday, give me time to change,
just relax, and then I'll comeback and I'll relieve you from
your parenting duties.
(19:58):
And then the the one who'sparenting.
Feels so validated instead ofrushed into the next thing.
And I think it's important.
And you know, sometimes it'shard to talk about stuff that
happens at work and sometimesit's not.
But I think that there's a lotof those things that happen
also.
SPEAKER_01 (20:13):
Yeah.
And that's why one of the thingsI always tell people, I my
husband, I'm laughing because myhusband's probably the one that
taught me this.
And I'm the talker in therelationship, and he's more
quiet than me.
SPEAKER_02 (20:23):
You're the talker?
That's a shocker, Alexis.
SPEAKER_01 (20:26):
I know, I know.
But he always says, and I'veimplemented this into couples
counseling is do you want me tolisten or do you want me to help
you find a solution?
Right.
Because I think and men andwomen are very different, right?
Sometimes men want to have asolution where women, I think
it's easier for us to listen.
But I think going in andunderstanding that and being
(20:47):
able to ask can help, right?
Or do you want a hug or do youwant, do you want me to leave
you alone?
It's really understanding toothe trauma responses versus
personality traits.
You just said I might want tosit down because I'm tired.
It doesn't mean it's the jobeither, right?
So having these conversationsand then having regular
check-ins, even if it's textmessages, because sometimes
(21:07):
that's all we get on the job.
But I think we just all want tofeel like we are seen,
respected, and cared about.
And again, equalizing like thehousehold load, if possible,
right?
Or like the whatever theworkload is professionally and
at home.
SPEAKER_02 (21:22):
And it's so hard because you you can make the
best plans in the world.
It goes well with the firstresponder world, particularly
like with the call-outs.
A lot of these places are shortstaffed nowadays.
So sometimes you can go, likeyou said, from a 24 to 48 to a
72 rather quickly.
And I think that that change,like, and then you god forbid,
you have your own health issues.
SPEAKER_01 (21:43):
Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (21:46):
You have a parent who lives far away that you need
to go check on.
I mean, that's why I tell peoplecommunication is so important
because for me, you know, mypartners give them credit where
credit is due, my currentpartner and my ex-wife.
Something happens with my familyup in Canada.
I I can't sit here and say we'regoing to negotiate if I can go
up or not.
It's not a question of gonegotiation, it's about me
(22:08):
going.
Yes, I'll set it up so we can beas successful as we possibly
can, but it's not a question.
But we have to have that hardconversation.
I think that that's the stuffthat people avoid so much in
couples.
They don't talk about that shitbecause they're afraid.
SPEAKER_01 (22:21):
And I always say with couples counseling, again,
for vetting, is I want you tohave your own individual
therapist because couplescounseling can often leak into
that, right?
And I that's not my role, is tobe both individual people's
counselors, right?
The other thing I know peoplehate this word because sometimes
they don't even know how todefine this word.
And I had someone ask me, Well,what is that?
(22:42):
I don't understand.
I've never heard that.
I don't know how to how to dothat.
Self-care.
I always say, make sure that youhave your own self-care first,
though, right?
Because we talk about being in arelationship, right?
50-50.
It's not 50-50.
I really want to view it as200%, meaning one partner is 100
and the other person is 100 andyou have 200%.
But you and it's not selfish,but you also need to be
(23:04):
confident in your own ability totake care of yourself first,
because otherwise you can't takecare of that relationship.
Or, or also with parenting,right?
Then we're in survival mode orcaregiving for a family member,
a sister, right, a brother, aparent, whatever.
Everyone has different pieces ofcaregiving throughout their
relationship and their liveswhere they're at.
But take care of yourself first.
And that is the hardest thing,right?
(23:25):
Because we see it as selfish.
Or people are like, I don't knowwhat that looks like, or you
know, I'll go out and have adrink that's taking care of
myself.
And then we, and then we drinktoo much, right?
It's all these things.
It's learning what is thatself-care outside of the job.
And sometimes people can't evendefine that, but it's also what
is self-care for your partneroutside of that relationship and
(23:46):
all the other things that comewith it.
SPEAKER_02 (23:48):
And one of the things I talk about with
self-care too is getting yourhaircut is not self-care for
some people.
It's just maintenance for somewomen who need to have a certain
way to look, so they have to gettheir nails done and stuff like
that.
That's not self-care.
That's just something that theyneed to do for me getting my
nails done and be self-care, notthat I care much, as you can see
(24:08):
if you go on YouTube.
SPEAKER_01 (24:10):
But everyone's self-care is different, right?
And I think that's the otherthing.
There's a stigma even aroundthat.
SPEAKER_02 (24:15):
I mean, for me, self-care sometimes is having,
you know, the I I have I'mwaiting for Alexa to schedule
our coffee time online.
She's the one who's slow.
Yes, I'm putting her on thespot.
I know that.
But for me, self-care sometimesis shooting the shit with
someone I care about.
You know, as well, I don't talkto my friends in Montreal all
that often, but when we do, it'slike two hours straight.
(24:38):
And it's not like I'm countingthe hours, but that's so much
fun.
And I feel so more, much moreenergized when I talk, you know,
to Josh and Frank and Beatriceand Helen and Dave, and those
are all my friends up there.
And then I like we don't talkfor three months sometimes or
six months, but it doesn'tmatter.
It just gives me that energy,makes me feel good.
But self-care is so personal.
And you brought in another wordthat I really wanted to address
(24:59):
is selfish.
I think that we need to stopthinking that selfish is a bad
thing.
I think that it can be a badthing, just like selfless can be
a bad thing.
But for the most part, beingselfish is important, you know,
for me, and and again, I jokedaround, but uh having even text
conversation with you, Alexa, isimportant to me.
We have a good connection and Ireally like you, so you know
(25:19):
that's important to me.
And it's okay for me to beselfish in those moments of
doing that.
And we gotta stop thinking thatselfish is a bad thing.
It's not, it's it's important.
We need that because, you know,especially first responders, I
feel therapists fall in thatrealm.
We do a lot of work for otherpeople.
So if we don't learn how to beselfish, we're gonna be so
bitter towards the world, it'snot even funny.
SPEAKER_01 (25:40):
Yeah, and that's why, right, this coalition that
we've created, this group ishuge, right?
Because sometimes if I have anissue, right, I can reach out to
someone in the group, right?
For I'll give an example, right?
Whether it's you or Erin orsomeone else that really gets
it.
So then I'm not putting it ontomy husband, right?
Because then my husband is like,I can't play your therapist, I
can't play parent, I I can't,right?
I I need to play husband, right?
(26:01):
And what does that look like?
So I think also knowing whereyour roles are, that's another
thing, is um the role clarity inin a relationship.
But sometimes even just liketaking a nap, right?
Or also if someone work, right?
If work comes up, don't take itin that window when you're with
your partner, right?
Know those boundaries too,right?
That's communication self.
(26:22):
It's all these things.
And don't I know, right?
Because I'm guilty of this, Iknow you are too, but don't
overschedule yourself.
Don't one of the other things,right, with our hypervigilance
is we don't know how to sit thefuck down and just be quiet and
in our space.
And this is another whole thing,right?
I know I'm just going down thisum rabbit hole today, but that's
why we also look at like theholistic stuff, right?
(26:44):
Like yoga practice, right?
Meditation, grounding.
I'm gonna the crunchy stuff,right?
But even it's because we'relowering, yeah, we're we're
lowering the vagus nerve, right?
Your your microbiome is alsoyour second nervous system,
right?
That's another whole is allthese things we have like light
exercise, right?
Taking a nap, getting enoughsleep.
(27:05):
It it sounds like so much,right?
But the more that you do it, themore it does show up in other
ways, right?
Whether, and and people oftenwill say, you know, I noticed
that my partner stopped doingthis and now they're more
present, right?
Especially, or or I the job,right, in that bullshit or
whatever at work doesn't affectme as much.
I it's easier for me to leave itat home.
I mean, leave it at work, excuseme, and be more present at home.
SPEAKER_02 (27:27):
I think that you're absolutely right.
The other part, too, that I kindof like it's when particularly
with some partners.
When they got home, they took 20minutes to go play blankety
blank on their PlayStation orwhatever.
I'm not making any money fromthat plug.
And people are like, Well,that's that's wrong.
And I'm like, no, that's theirself-care.
That's what they do to likechill.
And yeah, it doesn't sound likeshooting people is a great idea,
(27:51):
but for them, it's a relaxation.
For me personally, it's not, butI'd rather play like sports
games, but ultimately it's alldifferent for different people.
SPEAKER_01 (27:59):
Yeah, and that's why, whether this is like a tool
that people already know aboutor not, but I always recommend
it is having, you know, on like,for example, a shared Google
Calendar, right?
Because sometimes our being afirst responder, you know your
schedule for like a year out,even depending on the rotating
shifts, right?
But as someone at home, on theother side, this has happened to
me personally.
If I want to be bookingsomething right, or I'm in touch
(28:21):
with someone out when we'retrying to schedule something, I
can't bother you at work.
And then when you come home, youdon't want to talk about all
these other things that you haveto do because you just want to
sit and be present.
So even that, that's super easy,right?
Because everyone can just lookat it.
unknown (28:34):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (28:34):
Or if you got a charity or you got to go like
for the first responder world,oh, we got a golf tournament, we
got yeah, whatever.
You can they can look at theshared calendar and do that.
And that's very important.
I I, you know, I'm happy youmentioned that because I do
recommend a shared calendar,even for non-first responder
couples.
SPEAKER_01 (28:51):
Oh, absolutely.
But but it's just these thingsthat we don't think about,
right?
It's because our there's toomuch up here, right?
We're an autopilot of doing allthe things at work and at home,
and then we just get stuck.
And my thing that and youbrought this up earlier, it's
really hard is where has thatline of resentment gotten to
when it's too late, right?
And sometimes I have to, it'sit's hard to look at the
(29:11):
assessment, but sometimes it istoo late.
Not for everyone, but it'sthat's why just noticing where
does that resentment lie, right?
And it starts with us take likeindividually.
SPEAKER_02 (29:21):
Yeah, well, I think that that's the biggest problem,
too.
We, you know, I'm I I want tofinish on this and say when we
have the resentment, we let itbuild.
And that is the worst thing.
That doesn't mean you explode onyour partner and anytime you
feel a little resentment.
It means like, hey, let's have aconversation.
Do you have time and having thatconversation?
So that resentment doesn't buildup to the point where both of
(29:42):
you are out of the relationshipbefore you're out of the
relationship.
But I want to finish on that.
But more importantly, this willbe January 2026.
So you're gonna have your brandnew website up.
And I want people to reach youin any way, shape, or form they
can.
So can you tell us a little bitabout your website?
SPEAKER_01 (29:58):
Yes, it is OAE, which stands for oak and ember
counseling.com.
And I'm also on psychology todayunder Alexa Silva.
So it's oaecounseling.com.
SPEAKER_02 (30:12):
Well, I hope that people go see your website, know
more about you.
And Alexa, we have more to talkabout, I think, privately,
obviously, but more importantlyon the podcast too.
I hope you come back.
This was went by really fast.
I know that you don't you were alittle nervous, as you said at
the beginning of the show.
SPEAKER_01 (30:31):
I hate my public speaking, but we're we're
getting over it.
SPEAKER_02 (30:34):
Well, I think it's because it you lose like at one
point you forgot you had a micin front of you.
You're just talking to me.
SPEAKER_01 (30:40):
Yeah.
Well, I appreciate you giving methe space and to have for having
me as a guest and your podcast,you know, all the guests that
you have and all the work thatyou do.
It's amazing.
So thank you for that.
SPEAKER_02 (30:50):
Well, I hope that you come back soon.
And I know me and you are gonnahave coffee very, very soon.
And I look forward to it.
And thank you, Alexa.
SPEAKER_01 (30:58):
Thank you, Steve.
SPEAKER_02 (30:59):
And for those listening, please join us for
the next episode.
SPEAKER_00 (31:04):
Please like, subscribe, and follow this
podcast on your favoriteplatform.
A glowing review is alwayshelpful.
And as a reminder, this podcastis for informational,
educational, and entertainmentpurposes only.
If you're struggling with amental health or substance abuse
issue, please reach out to aprofessional counselor for
consultation.
If you are in a mental healthcrisis, call 988 for assistance.
(31:28):
This number is available in theUnited States and Canada.
Welcome to Resilience Development in Action
with Steve Bisson.
This is the podcast dedicated tofirst responder mental health,
helping police, fire, EMS,dispatchers, and paramedics
create better growthenvironments for themselves and
their teams.
Let's get started.ai.
SPEAKER_02 (00:37):
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Well, I want to continue on thatidea that you just mentioned
because I think that makesperfect sense.
I think I think that what weforget is the impact of
(02:02):
substance use on the families,and particularly, I know you
work with couples.
Uh I give you a lot of credit.
Uh I find couples counseling sodifficult because, again,
correct me if I'm wrong.
I would say that 90% of thepeople who came to see me were
way too down the line to get thesupport they actually needed.
Uh and so they wanted me to fixeverything within a session or
(02:24):
two so that, you know, uh shecan get more of a partner that
supports her and he can get moresex out of her.
SPEAKER_01 (02:30):
And I'm sorry for vulgarity, but hey, no, that's
that's a very common thing,absolutely, that we see.
SPEAKER_02 (02:36):
So I think that what I would say is that not only
does it like substance affectthat that's family, but let's
talk a little bit about couplescounseling and family counseling
in general.
I know that you do a lot morethan I do with that.
You know, I I think thatprobably hits home a little bit
for you because you know, youare married to the job, and I
think that that plays a factortoo.
But want to hear more about yourexperience talking with first
(02:57):
responders, couples, and allthat fun stuff.
SPEAKER_01 (03:00):
Yeah.
So one of the big reasons why Iwent into it is because I was
living it even more at home.
And I kind of thought, oh, youknow, there's things that I'm
doing right and there's thingsthat I'm doing wrong, but it all
kind of, you know, cametogether.
And I don't even remember howI've got my first couple first
responder couple, but the morethat I started to put it out
there, I think the more thatpeople wanted to come because
(03:23):
again, it is a very specializedfield.
I I don't even know how manyfirst responder clinicians
advertise that they do that forcouples counseling.
But again, I think havingcultural competency, because you
you hit the nail on the headwhen you said some people want
to come in and fix everything inone to two sessions.
And that's why I my vetting hasbecome a lot more thorough, too,
(03:45):
I think, in in the last year,because people will come in and
again when we're at the pointof, I mean, take away being a
first responder to marriage orfamily, but just it's
challenging alone, right?
Like sharing a space withsomeone raising kids, you have
all the stressors at home, butthen put on being with the first
responders and people not beinghome, right?
And for example, I'll give ahypothetical.
(04:07):
My husband could walk throughthe door in in a 48-hour shift
and not have any sleep.
And to me, I'm looking at itthrough the lens of, well, I had
to do everything at home withtwo young kids, right?
I I don't have the bandwidth nowto be able to ask you how you're
doing.
When you come through that door,I expect and I need or I want to
be able to have you take thekids so I can have a break,
(04:29):
right?
Or I need to be able to maybe goto work and it's just kind of
like doing the divorce drop-offin a parking lot, right?
I've done that multiple times,but not because I'm divorced,
but because, you know, oneperson's coming off shift and I
have to go to work and you'reswitching cars and daycare.
But I can't at that point, Ican't look through the through
the lens of how was your night?
How, because maybe I didn't havea good night, right?
(04:50):
Because the kids were up allnight.
And no matter what you wentthrough, what I'm going through,
I need you to understand.
But he or she that's walkingthrough the door, right?
I mean, they may not have amoment to have that what I call
the right the reintegrationperiod of coming off a shift to
coming home or to bring downyour cortisol levels because and
then what do they do, right?
They shut down after work, theymay engage in alcohol, or they
(05:12):
might just completely they'redesensitized.
And we, and the more that you dothis, we don't know how to then
connect with the people at home,right?
And intimacy is a big thingemotionally and physically.
It's just, I just had all theseinteresting, or maybe it was a
quiet night, but my sleep isnever the same because I'm
hearing the tones, whatever thatcomes with it.
I had some really fucked upcalls, and then you want me to
(05:32):
come home and act likeeverything's fine.
And that's why body language isreally important.
I always bring that up incouples counseling because one
person's body language may bedifferent than another, right?
And what someone needs.
Sometimes people need physicaltouch, sometimes their partner
doesn't.
Sometimes they need to sit down,have that emotional balance of
having a conversation.
But how can you do that when onepartner is their job is
(05:55):
completely to put up that wall,right?
And be able to do their job inhigh risk situations.
And the other person may be alsoworking or they're staying at
home with the kids, and that'sreally hard.
And constantly you're what'sgoing through your mind is that
you're responsible for someoneelse, right?
And when do you have a momentfor yourself?
And if you don't have thatbalance or moment for yourself,
(06:16):
how can you then be a goodfoundation for your partner?
Right.
And in when we first get into arelationship or marriage, we're
it's we don't think about, oh,how do we want to do all these
things, right?
We're just in the thick of it.
It's exciting, right?
You get married, you have afamily, you have a job, and then
retirement.
We kind of look at it from likethe chronic timeline, but there
are so many things that you haveto change and adapt within those
(06:38):
years, right?
I went back to that five, I'llsay five, seven years when we
look at a family.
Things pivot, right?
Even when kids become teenagersor once someone is on the job
for five years versus 20, right?
Or you wake up and when was thelast time you actually went on a
date with your partner?
Did you want to go on a datewith your partner?
Right.
Right.
And then we even throw in theother thing, right?
The alcohol use that affectsrelationships, any kind of
(07:01):
addiction.
And then also cheating.
It's really hard.
People, one one of the thingsthat I always want to point out,
right, when we're talking aboutother people or just human
behavior in general is we judgeso often, especially in the
first responder world, right?
But until it happens to you, Ithink it's very different,
right?
Like we always say, oh, thatperson cheated, right?
Or that person has an uncle.
(07:21):
But until it happens to you, Idon't know if you would walk out
of that situation, right?
You don't know what's going tohappen.
So I think that's another addedlayer in couples counseling when
I'm working with people isreally making sure that we're
protecting our space.
And it's not right, we're nottalking about it at work.
We're not talking about it,talking about it at our family.
Because being a first respondercouple, sometimes it can become
(07:43):
already very public, right?
Because of our jobs and likeother people.
We have other support systems.
For example, a mom might have asister or their mom that's
helping co-parent with themwhile their partner's off doing
what 72-hour shifts all thetime.
Right?
All these different things.
But I really try to bring itback to don't compare other
people.
People in the first responderfield that we're always
(08:04):
comparing, especially ourrelationships to other people.
Well, that person at work,right?
They have, they go and do that,they spend that amount of money,
right?
They can, they go out on datesor, you know, their kids do this
and that.
And I'm just, we have to startfrom the ground up.
And sometimes it's restartingeverything because you are not
who you were when you firstbecame in a relationship,
sometimes, right?
And the job can change you, buteven parenting can change you,
(08:26):
right?
Just aging together.
And I mean, that's that's basicfundamentals of couples
counseling, but it's adding thefirst responder, it's very
different.
I mean, because again, theintimacy, physical and emotional
is key.
And that's where it's reallyhard because imagine intimacy,
right?
If you're one partner and youwant physical intimacy, right?
But your partner's not eventhere.
(08:48):
Or you don't know how you don'tknow how to ask for it, right?
It can become very awkward.
And then we do this thing, whichis the mind reading, right?
Well, my partner came home andhe or she seems really mad at
me, so they must be mad at me,versus no, they're exhausted,
right?
And then my partner at home,like I they're not talking to
me.
They must be really mad or orthey don't care about me.
(09:09):
So I'm just gonna shut off.
Like that's I'm mad at them now,right?
When we do the mind reading andwe don't know how to support
this different shift ofschedules and changes and
parenting, it becomes reallyvolatile.
SPEAKER_02 (09:26):
I and think that you said so many things here that
are sorry.
SPEAKER_01 (09:29):
I just went on a nice tangent.
I just I get very, verypassionate about it because
Alexa, we we don't apologize onthis podcast.
SPEAKER_02 (09:36):
We're just ourselves.
We don't worry about that shit.
If I wanted to interrupt you, Icould don't worry about that
shit.
Because I I want to say that yousaid a lot of good things
because I want to like even godown a few of these what I would
call rabbit holes becausethey're very important.
You talk about intimacy.
What I I find with intimacy, theother part that's always lost on
most couples, but I find thatparticularly in the first
(09:58):
responder world, uh intimacychanges in time.
Uh and you know, like when youhave no kids and you can have
intimacy, like sex regularly,because there's nothing in the
job, is only 24 on, 24 off.
You just have your job and maybean apartment.
There's a lot of like stuff thatwe can do physically.
Uh but as you grow, you know,you've had a couple of kids, or
(10:19):
you have a better job, orthere's other stressors around
the house, the intimacy has tochange, it has to be like
vulnerability, it has to be withasking how people are doing.
And I think that a lot of peopledon't see that change in
intimacy grow and they expectthe same thing.
And brings me to another thingthat happens a lot.
And I don't know if that happensin your couple's counseling.
Well, you know, I wasaffectionate because I sat on
(10:42):
the couch with her or him for acouple of hours.
They owe me sex now, or theyit's only been we're only having
sex once a month, or sorry, I'mvery if this offends anyone, I
don't care, but you can change achannel.
But to me, that's all importantshit that we we don't talk
about.
And it's not like you know, ifyou start going, well, you know,
(11:02):
we only had sex twice thismonth, so I don't owe you or
whatever.
I it it gets really fuckingdangerous when the scorekeeping
takes place.
And I see that with theevolution of intimacy and people
staying at the old ways versuslooking at it as it just changes
with them.
SPEAKER_01 (11:19):
No, you have to talk about these things, and again,
right?
Intimacy and sex, it's one ofthe most awkward conversations,
but we have to talk about thatbecause again, right, we look at
the cheating part, right?
Sometimes I'll ask, well, whydid that happen?
And I didn't even initiate it,right?
Someone came up to me and maybesaid something that made me feel
good, right?
Or gave me a compliment.
And that's the key thing, right?
(11:39):
That even the emotionalconnection there.
Somebody came up and gave me acompliment, right?
Or told me that maybe I lookednice, right?
Or I did a good job atsomething.
That's that's the basic, right?
Because then we shut down.
And the common relationshippatterns that I see with first
responder couples, you know, isemotional numbing, right?
It's the difficulty of sharingfeelings, it's role confusion,
(12:02):
right?
One partner is on command modeat work and the other and brings
that home.
And it spills over, right?
Like, oh, you're always adetective while they're actual
detective at work, right?
Hypervigilance, right?
The difficulty relaxing.
And when the other partner wantsyou to come home and like
expects potentially like a nice,calm, warming physical
(12:23):
environment, right?
Perhaps the person's coming homefrom the first responder role,
they can't do that.
And then communicationbreakdown, right?
You start to avoid eye contact,right?
We do the mind reading and youyou can't show or express your
emotions.
The shift work strain.
I mean, that's a given, right?
You miss the holidays, you72-hour shifts, right?
(12:43):
Or how many days on and off, andkids and one person becomes both
parents.
And then the family load inbalance, right?
At the partner at home iscarrying most of the childhood
household duties or whateverthat looks like.
And it's the impact on partners,right?
So feeling like they'recompeting with the job, right?
Carrying that emotional load forthe family, and then feeling
(13:04):
unseen, disconnected, or lonely.
And then the other thing, too,is you worry about the safety,
right, of your partner on shift.
That's another thing.
And then, so what happens,right?
Stir all that bad shit into apot, resentment.
You get resentment, right?
And then repair becomes limited.
And that's why you brought upthat point.
(13:26):
People come in and they wanteverything fixed in a few
sessions.
But for me, my job is really tolook at that toolbox.
Sometimes there is no toolbox.
So, how do we get the tools tobuild the toolbox to then put
the tools in the toolbox?
SPEAKER_02 (13:41):
Right.
I mean, resentment, you hit thenail on the head.
I think the resentment occurs.
That's why, like, eventually itbecomes easier for you know, we
see we always say firstresponders cheat.
Well, I've seen spouses of firstresponders cheat too, and vice
versa.
And that's not the number onedivorce rate, by the way.
Everyone knows that it's uhfinances, it's actually not
(14:02):
cheating, but cheating, it'sbecause of that resentment, and
she doesn't understand me, hedoesn't understand me.
I'll just go find my lovesomewhere else because you don't
have the same obligations, youdon't need to go mow the lawn or
shovel the walk or clean thehouse, or you know, so it
becomes easy to go cheat.
I mean, and because that's a loteasier, there's not the other
(14:23):
built-up shit that's there.
SPEAKER_01 (14:25):
Yeah, and you just added that other huge thing with
the finances, too, right?
Sometimes we're working a lotbecause we need the financial
income, you know, or if we havegoals or you know, we're living
a certain lifestyle, orpotentially right, one person
stays at home.
unknown (14:39):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (14:40):
Like finances are huge too.
And right when we look at likeseparate accounts versus joint
accounts, and if someone'sworking, for example, a lot of
overtime, they may have likethat's my money, right?
Versus our it's everyone'sdifferent with their views of
money.
But if you're not havingconversations at all, how how do
we understand what's going on?
And that's where the resentmentjust keeps building.
(15:00):
So, how do we change that?
What are your thoughts on that?
SPEAKER_02 (15:04):
I think that open conversation is so important.
And for me, one of the thingsthat I would say that not being
in the first responder world andbeing divorced myself, one of
the things that we started doingis we took each other for
granted.
And we just like we were passingships.
She owns her own business, I ownmy own business.
And I'm not saying anything badabout her at all.
(15:25):
I this is not this is not numberone the place, but more
importantly, I don't say badthings about my ex because we
were both as guilty, in myopinion.
She can own up her own stuff ifshe wants to, but I'm gonna own
up to mine.
Uh and it was really like takingher for granted and not worrying
about it and scorekeeping, andhow come she has money for this?
And we had a job account, butshe had a side, and uh, she she
(15:46):
would argue that uh you know, wewe would do finances
differently.
And I think that what I I tellpeople is that you don't have
those often open conversations,uh you're already fucking
yourself over.
You know, having an importantlike we talked about it earlier,
and I'm I don't want to go wecan go continue talking about
finances, but even around youknow intimacy and sex.
Uh and it's not about likescorekeeping, but it's about
(16:10):
like you know, it's moreimportant for me on Mondays uh
to be with my girlfriend and wehave supper.
There's we sit on a couch wherewell the dog keeps us from being
like too close, but we just sitthere and watch TV together.
Uh uh and then I go home becauseshe has to get up early.
I gotta get but that thosemoments are like priceless to
me, and we both had to put thatas a priority in our lives.
(16:31):
Uh but if you don't talk aboutit, then you don't know and you
create the bitterness, theanger.
Uh and before I forget, Ichecked on our resource list
that we have for the B BBBprogram, uh, and there is they
haven't put it on yours yet, sowe're gonna put it on there.
But there's only four cliniciansout of fifty that are vetted by
first responder clinicians uhthat do couples counseling.
(16:53):
That's a low ass number, andthen only hard.
And then there's only two thattake insurance.
But I just want to mention that.
But yeah, I think that when youtalk about what you gotta do,
you know, and uh being able totake no for an answer.
I know that some people say noone says no to me.
But being able to say no aboutdo you want to go somewhere?
(17:13):
No, don't need an explanationsometimes, they don't feel like
it, but also being able to takethe no as an as a yeah as an
answer sometimes is very hard,particularly for first
responders, but in general.
SPEAKER_01 (17:24):
And that's that's another thing, right?
Is communication style.
So, for example, you may havesomeone that needs to have
closure at the end of anargument, right?
And say, let's talk about thisversus someone else, right?
Potentially, I I think it's bothsides, first responder and the
spouse, but someone may need toleave and decompress, right?
(17:44):
And then that other person feelslike, oh, look, you're walking
away, right?
Attachment issues, right?
Abandonment.
And the other person's like, Ijust need space.
This is how I decompress.
So communication styles arehuge, but all the things that
you said are are key, right?
That communication.
So one of the things that wealways look at, some of the some
of the things to add to thetoolbox is schedule
decompression for each person,right?
(18:06):
After shift, whether it's theparenting shift or the first
responder.
I always say try to have 20 to45 minutes alone.
The saying the no, right?
If you say no so many times,then they're gonna stop asking.
So it's when what do we put ourenergy into, right?
Do we want to go onto the onthis date and get a babysitter
on Friday versus I I don't wantto do this because I had a
(18:26):
really long week and actuallylistening to your partner.
unknown (18:30):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (18:30):
I don't go ahead about you, but I find that
sometimes, you know, likeliterally, maybe maybe I'm old
and my kids are a little older,which helps.
But me and my girlfriendbasically, like Friday nights,
she works a pretty stressfuljob.
She's been on the podcastbefore.
I work a stressful job too,obviously.
So Fridays, we may talk on thephone, uh, but otherwise come
(18:53):
seven or eight o'clock, we'reboth in our own houses and we're
relaxing, and we don't reallywant to talk to anyone.
And that's not an attack on ourrelationship, it's not an attack
on it's like we have stressfuljobs, we're exhausted.
And I think that having thoseconversations and being okay
with it, not feeling it's arejection and talk about
attachment issues, like let'slet's not even talk about IFS
(19:16):
and all that stuff that plays afactor for different couples and
families in particular.
But I think that that's thestuff that we internal family
systems for those of us.
I just want to make sure Imention that I hate people who
use acronyms but don't explainthem.
I think that that's what you gotto remember is that that
communication is key.
So, you know, I know mygirlfriend's gonna be listening
to this and going, oh yeah, whatwhat yeah?
(19:37):
I said, well, because it's notself-evident for a whole lot of
people to have that conversationand saying, uh, you know, when I
get back from work, sometimes Ineed 40 minutes.
Uh and if it was a hard day,maybe it's an hour, maybe it's
only 20 minutes.
Maybe it's like I had a goodday, give me time to change,
just relax, and then I'll comeback and I'll relieve you from
your parenting duties.
(19:58):
And then the the one who'sparenting.
Feels so validated instead ofrushed into the next thing.
And I think it's important.
And you know, sometimes it'shard to talk about stuff that
happens at work and sometimesit's not.
But I think that there's a lotof those things that happen
also.
SPEAKER_01 (20:13):
Yeah.
And that's why one of the thingsI always tell people, I my
husband, I'm laughing because myhusband's probably the one that
taught me this.
And I'm the talker in therelationship, and he's more
quiet than me.
SPEAKER_02 (20:23):
You're the talker?
That's a shocker, Alexis.
SPEAKER_01 (20:26):
I know, I know.
But he always says, and I'veimplemented this into couples
counseling is do you want me tolisten or do you want me to help
you find a solution?
Right.
Because I think and men andwomen are very different, right?
Sometimes men want to have asolution where women, I think
it's easier for us to listen.
But I think going in andunderstanding that and being
(20:47):
able to ask can help, right?
Or do you want a hug or do youwant, do you want me to leave
you alone?
It's really understanding toothe trauma responses versus
personality traits.
You just said I might want tosit down because I'm tired.
It doesn't mean it's the jobeither, right?
So having these conversationsand then having regular
check-ins, even if it's textmessages, because sometimes
(21:07):
that's all we get on the job.
But I think we just all want tofeel like we are seen,
respected, and cared about.
And again, equalizing like thehousehold load, if possible,
right?
Or like the whatever theworkload is professionally and
at home.
SPEAKER_02 (21:22):
And it's so hard because you you can make the
best plans in the world.
It goes well with the firstresponder world, particularly
like with the call-outs.
A lot of these places are shortstaffed nowadays.
So sometimes you can go, likeyou said, from a 24 to 48 to a
72 rather quickly.
And I think that that change,like, and then you god forbid,
you have your own health issues.
SPEAKER_01 (21:43):
Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (21:46):
You have a parent who lives far away that you need
to go check on.
I mean, that's why I tell peoplecommunication is so important
because for me, you know, mypartners give them credit where
credit is due, my currentpartner and my ex-wife.
Something happens with my familyup in Canada.
I I can't sit here and say we'regoing to negotiate if I can go
up or not.
It's not a question of gonegotiation, it's about me
(22:08):
going.
Yes, I'll set it up so we can beas successful as we possibly
can, but it's not a question.
But we have to have that hardconversation.
I think that that's the stuffthat people avoid so much in
couples.
They don't talk about that shitbecause they're afraid.
SPEAKER_01 (22:21):
And I always say with couples counseling, again,
for vetting, is I want you tohave your own individual
therapist because couplescounseling can often leak into
that, right?
And I that's not my role, is tobe both individual people's
counselors, right?
The other thing I know peoplehate this word because sometimes
they don't even know how todefine this word.
And I had someone ask me, Well,what is that?
(22:42):
I don't understand.
I've never heard that.
I don't know how to how to dothat.
Self-care.
I always say, make sure that youhave your own self-care first,
though, right?
Because we talk about being in arelationship, right?
50-50.
It's not 50-50.
I really want to view it as200%, meaning one partner is 100
and the other person is 100 andyou have 200%.
But you and it's not selfish,but you also need to be
(23:04):
confident in your own ability totake care of yourself first,
because otherwise you can't takecare of that relationship.
Or, or also with parenting,right?
Then we're in survival mode orcaregiving for a family member,
a sister, right, a brother, aparent, whatever.
Everyone has different pieces ofcaregiving throughout their
relationship and their liveswhere they're at.
But take care of yourself first.
And that is the hardest thing,right?
(23:25):
Because we see it as selfish.
Or people are like, I don't knowwhat that looks like, or you
know, I'll go out and have adrink that's taking care of
myself.
And then we, and then we drinktoo much, right?
It's all these things.
It's learning what is thatself-care outside of the job.
And sometimes people can't evendefine that, but it's also what
is self-care for your partneroutside of that relationship and
(23:46):
all the other things that comewith it.
SPEAKER_02 (23:48):
And one of the things I talk about with
self-care too is getting yourhaircut is not self-care for
some people.
It's just maintenance for somewomen who need to have a certain
way to look, so they have to gettheir nails done and stuff like
that.
That's not self-care.
That's just something that theyneed to do for me getting my
nails done and be self-care, notthat I care much, as you can see
(24:08):
if you go on YouTube.
SPEAKER_01 (24:10):
But everyone's self-care is different, right?
And I think that's the otherthing.
There's a stigma even aroundthat.
SPEAKER_02 (24:15):
I mean, for me, self-care sometimes is having,
you know, the I I have I'mwaiting for Alexa to schedule
our coffee time online.
She's the one who's slow.
Yes, I'm putting her on thespot.
I know that.
But for me, self-care sometimesis shooting the shit with
someone I care about.
You know, as well, I don't talkto my friends in Montreal all
that often, but when we do, it'slike two hours straight.
(24:38):
And it's not like I'm countingthe hours, but that's so much
fun.
And I feel so more, much moreenergized when I talk, you know,
to Josh and Frank and Beatriceand Helen and Dave, and those
are all my friends up there.
And then I like we don't talkfor three months sometimes or
six months, but it doesn'tmatter.
It just gives me that energy,makes me feel good.
But self-care is so personal.
And you brought in another wordthat I really wanted to address
(24:59):
is selfish.
I think that we need to stopthinking that selfish is a bad
thing.
I think that it can be a badthing, just like selfless can be
a bad thing.
But for the most part, beingselfish is important, you know,
for me, and and again, I jokedaround, but uh having even text
conversation with you, Alexa, isimportant to me.
We have a good connection and Ireally like you, so you know
(25:19):
that's important to me.
And it's okay for me to beselfish in those moments of
doing that.
And we gotta stop thinking thatselfish is a bad thing.
It's not, it's it's important.
We need that because, you know,especially first responders, I
feel therapists fall in thatrealm.
We do a lot of work for otherpeople.
So if we don't learn how to beselfish, we're gonna be so
bitter towards the world, it'snot even funny.
SPEAKER_01 (25:40):
Yeah, and that's why, right, this coalition that
we've created, this group ishuge, right?
Because sometimes if I have anissue, right, I can reach out to
someone in the group, right?
For I'll give an example, right?
Whether it's you or Erin orsomeone else that really gets
it.
So then I'm not putting it ontomy husband, right?
Because then my husband is like,I can't play your therapist, I
can't play parent, I I can't,right?
I I need to play husband, right?
(26:01):
And what does that look like?
So I think also knowing whereyour roles are, that's another
thing, is um the role clarity inin a relationship.
But sometimes even just liketaking a nap, right?
Or also if someone work, right?
If work comes up, don't take itin that window when you're with
your partner, right?
Know those boundaries too,right?
That's communication self.
(26:22):
It's all these things.
And don't I know, right?
Because I'm guilty of this, Iknow you are too, but don't
overschedule yourself.
Don't one of the other things,right, with our hypervigilance
is we don't know how to sit thefuck down and just be quiet and
in our space.
And this is another whole thing,right?
I know I'm just going down thisum rabbit hole today, but that's
why we also look at like theholistic stuff, right?
(26:44):
Like yoga practice, right?
Meditation, grounding.
I'm gonna the crunchy stuff,right?
But even it's because we'relowering, yeah, we're we're
lowering the vagus nerve, right?
Your your microbiome is alsoyour second nervous system,
right?
That's another whole is allthese things we have like light
exercise, right?
Taking a nap, getting enoughsleep.
(27:05):
It it sounds like so much,right?
But the more that you do it, themore it does show up in other
ways, right?
Whether, and and people oftenwill say, you know, I noticed
that my partner stopped doingthis and now they're more
present, right?
Especially, or or I the job,right, in that bullshit or
whatever at work doesn't affectme as much.
I it's easier for me to leave itat home.
I mean, leave it at work, excuseme, and be more present at home.
SPEAKER_02 (27:27):
I think that you're absolutely right.
The other part, too, that I kindof like it's when particularly
with some partners.
When they got home, they took 20minutes to go play blankety
blank on their PlayStation orwhatever.
I'm not making any money fromthat plug.
And people are like, Well,that's that's wrong.
And I'm like, no, that's theirself-care.
That's what they do to likechill.
And yeah, it doesn't sound likeshooting people is a great idea,
(27:51):
but for them, it's a relaxation.
For me personally, it's not, butI'd rather play like sports
games, but ultimately it's alldifferent for different people.
SPEAKER_01 (27:59):
Yeah, and that's why, whether this is like a tool
that people already know aboutor not, but I always recommend
it is having, you know, on like,for example, a shared Google
Calendar, right?
Because sometimes our being afirst responder, you know your
schedule for like a year out,even depending on the rotating
shifts, right?
But as someone at home, on theother side, this has happened to
me personally.
If I want to be bookingsomething right, or I'm in touch
(28:21):
with someone out when we'retrying to schedule something, I
can't bother you at work.
And then when you come home, youdon't want to talk about all
these other things that you haveto do because you just want to
sit and be present.
So even that, that's super easy,right?
Because everyone can just lookat it.
unknown (28:34):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (28:34):
Or if you got a charity or you got to go like
for the first responder world,oh, we got a golf tournament, we
got yeah, whatever.
You can they can look at theshared calendar and do that.
And that's very important.
I I, you know, I'm happy youmentioned that because I do
recommend a shared calendar,even for non-first responder
couples.
SPEAKER_01 (28:51):
Oh, absolutely.
But but it's just these thingsthat we don't think about,
right?
It's because our there's toomuch up here, right?
We're an autopilot of doing allthe things at work and at home,
and then we just get stuck.
And my thing that and youbrought this up earlier, it's
really hard is where has thatline of resentment gotten to
when it's too late, right?
And sometimes I have to, it'sit's hard to look at the
(29:11):
assessment, but sometimes it istoo late.
Not for everyone, but it'sthat's why just noticing where
does that resentment lie, right?
And it starts with us take likeindividually.
SPEAKER_02 (29:21):
Yeah, well, I think that that's the biggest problem,
too.
We, you know, I'm I I want tofinish on this and say when we
have the resentment, we let itbuild.
And that is the worst thing.
That doesn't mean you explode onyour partner and anytime you
feel a little resentment.
It means like, hey, let's have aconversation.
Do you have time and having thatconversation?
So that resentment doesn't buildup to the point where both of
(29:42):
you are out of the relationshipbefore you're out of the
relationship.
But I want to finish on that.
But more importantly, this willbe January 2026.
So you're gonna have your brandnew website up.
And I want people to reach youin any way, shape, or form they
can.
So can you tell us a little bitabout your website?
SPEAKER_01 (29:58):
Yes, it is OAE, which stands for oak and ember
counseling.com.
And I'm also on psychology todayunder Alexa Silva.
So it's oaecounseling.com.
SPEAKER_02 (30:12):
Well, I hope that people go see your website, know
more about you.
And Alexa, we have more to talkabout, I think, privately,
obviously, but more importantlyon the podcast too.
I hope you come back.
This was went by really fast.
I know that you don't you were alittle nervous, as you said at
the beginning of the show.
SPEAKER_01 (30:31):
I hate my public speaking, but we're we're
getting over it.
SPEAKER_02 (30:34):
Well, I think it's because it you lose like at one
point you forgot you had a micin front of you.
You're just talking to me.
SPEAKER_01 (30:40):
Yeah.
Well, I appreciate you giving methe space and to have for having
me as a guest and your podcast,you know, all the guests that
you have and all the work thatyou do.
It's amazing.
So thank you for that.
SPEAKER_02 (30:50):
Well, I hope that you come back soon.
And I know me and you are gonnahave coffee very, very soon.
And I look forward to it.
And thank you, Alexa.
SPEAKER_01 (30:58):
Thank you, Steve.
SPEAKER_02 (30:59):
And for those listening, please join us for
the next episode.
SPEAKER_00 (31:04):
Please like, subscribe, and follow this
podcast on your favoriteplatform.
A glowing review is alwayshelpful.
And as a reminder, this podcastis for informational,
educational, and entertainmentpurposes only.
If you're struggling with amental health or substance abuse
issue, please reach out to aprofessional counselor for
consultation.
If you are in a mental healthcrisis, call 988 for assistance.
(31:28):
This number is available in theUnited States and Canada.
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