February 25, 2026 • 34 mins
Stigma keeps too many first responders silent, and silence can cost careers, health, and lives. We sit down with a former deputy sheriff and burnout expert AK Dozanti to map clear, practical ways leaders and peers can replace fear with trust—without waiting for a crisis to force the issue. From the first honest check-in to a policy that actually protects time for care, we unpack what real support looks like on and off shift.
We talk about the gap between leadership and the line, and how to close it with routine, human conversations—quarterly coffee, or even better, side-by-side cruiser rides that make it easier to open up. You’ll hear why “the opposite of depression is expression,” how to speak up safely using unions and peer support, and why building a pre-crisis network is the strongest predictor of bouncing back after critical incidents. We also get candid about therapy: EAPs help, but cultural awareness matters. When clinicians understand shift work, critical incidents, and the code of the job, responders stop giving “safe” answers and start telling the truth.
We spotlight two resources built for the field. Beat the Burnout reverse-engineers burnout with stepwise guidance and constant actions you can use even when your brain is crispy. Responder Reset delivers 99 “read-this-when” tactics for moments like wired-but-tired or post-incident spikes—grounding, bilateral stimulation, breathing, and proprioceptive tools explained in plain language with tactical trade-offs. Leaders will learn why embedded clinicians accelerate trust, how annual wellness visits normalize care before it’s urgent, and how to frame mental health in practical, tactical terms that earn buy-in.
If you value practical tools over platitudes, this conversation is for you. Listen, share it with your shift, and tell us: what one change would make your department safer to speak up? Subscribe for more candid, field-tested strategies, and leave a review to help other first responders find this show.
Visit her website at: www.akdozanti.com
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_02 (00:01):
Welcome to Resilience Development in Action
with Steve Bisson.
This is the podcast dedicated tofirst responder mental health,
helping police, fire, EMS,dispatchers, and paramedics
create better growthenvironments for themselves and
their teams.
Let's get started.ai.
SPEAKER_00 (00:37):
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I'm gonna keep on talking aboutit because I love it.
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that will save you time andmoney.
And I highly encourage you to doso.
Well, aka the Zante or Desantewith a Z.
How are you?
I know we're doing second parthere.
I know you introduced yourselfalready, but this has been a
great conversation.
I really enjoyed it.
And I like to shift gearsbecause you talked about
(02:10):
something earlier that you werea deputy sheriff.
And I've always wondered about acouple of things because I work
with a lot of people who sayleadership doesn't listen,
leadership doesn't get it,leadership blankety blank.
I always wonder what leadershipcan do differently, not only to
support their staff for XYZreasons, but also around mental
(02:31):
health.
Because some people fear tellingtheir chief deputy, sheriff,
name it, that they have had someof those issues because they're
afraid their gun is going to betaken away and stuff like that.
So I would love to hear moreabout what do you think
leadership can do differently inorder to support their staff,
particularly when that in themental health part.
SPEAKER_03 (02:52):
I think it has to be on both ends.
And hear me out.
There is there's a rift betweenleadership and line level guys
or even middle management.
And a lot of times we justassume that they're not going to
get it.
So we don't even bother.
We don't bring it up.
When I and I'll be honest, Ileft full-time law enforcement a
(03:15):
little over 10 years ago now.
And when I left, it was becauseI had PTSD, suicidal ideation,
severe depression, adrenalfatigue, all of these things.
What I told them was that I wasleaving to go further my
education, which I did, but Idid not disclose the real
underlying undercurrent of why Iwas leaving because A, I was
(03:42):
leaving and I assumed theywouldn't care.
And B, I didn't want them tothink that I was weak because
that stigma was very strong andit still lingers in the in the
first responder world today.
But I think that we have to stopassuming that they're not gonna
(04:04):
get it.
Now, I'm not saying if if you'veexperienced, if you've seen
examples of, you know, somebodyspeaking up and then that the
that set of admin discards them,you know, take that as evidence,
take that, take that as data andinformation.
But we also have to be willingto speak up if something is
(04:28):
going on.
Now, leadership, my biggestthing is you need to not just
put things into policy, but ofcourse put things into policy.
However, make sure that yourleadership has good education
around mental health issues,around my ex my area of
(04:52):
expertise is burnout.
So being able to recognizethings and signs of burnout
because those are things that wehave normalized that we have the
ability to mitigate, but if wedon't, they will become bigger
issues.
But actually supporting yourpeople in a real way, actually
connecting with them, actuallygoing beyond just the pizza
(05:14):
party and the the written letterat a boy and sitting down and
having a conversation.
You know, if if you're middlemanagement, make it a point that
if you have six guys on yourshift, that once every quarter
you sit down with each one ofthem and have a cup of coffee
and say you listen to them aboutwhat's going on in their life.
(05:37):
Listen to them about whatfeedback they might have about
the job, right?
Like there might be things thatthey're holding back if they
don't feel like they can come toyou.
And if they feel like they cancome to you with work stuff and
they feel like they can come toyou with home stuff, and it's
not necessarily a counselingsession, but just like, man, you
(05:59):
know, my mom's in the hospitaland the wife can't get off of
work and I gotta, I gotta takeoff to watch the kids or
something like that.
If they feel comfortable enoughto say that to you, and you're
able to say, why don't you takethe shift and go be with your
family?
That's gonna mean so much moreto them than just some policy
(06:22):
that they have to sign or someextra snacks at the end of their
shift or whatever the case is.
So what I'm getting at is youreally have to just genuinely
connect with people and thenhave policies in place to fall
back on so that when things dohappen, the policies hold
everything up and you can justbe a human and connect in that
(06:44):
moment.
SPEAKER_00 (06:44):
A few things you said that really struck me is
connection.
And I think that that's the keyto anything that we do as human
beings, never mind in the firstresponder world.
There's a sergeant that I workwith around here that you say
quarterly, sit down and have acup of coffee.
He found it a lot more helpfulto sit next to them for in the
cruiser once every quarter.
SPEAKER_01 (07:05):
Sure.
SPEAKER_00 (07:06):
And especially with men, side to side, they'll talk
a whole lot more and thenface-to-face.
Women, they can do face-to-facea lot easier.
But men in particular, they willtalk a whole lot more with a
shoulder-to-shoulderconversation than they will with
a face-to-face conversation.
And he does this quarterly withhis staff, and I really truly
appreciate that because theyounger officers, as you know,
(07:27):
we have a lot of young, youngofficers coming into the field
right now, and they really feelappreciated and supported, and
that changes a lot.
And I know it's middlemanagement to be a sergeant, but
at the same time, that's whereyou're going to start believing
in administration because ifyour middle management is
supportive, you will think thatthe captain and the lieutenant
and the deputy and uh everythingelse will be supportive too.
(07:51):
I don't know all about the rankseverywhere and every because
everyone has slightly differentthings, but that is absolutely
true.
The other part that youmentioned is that speaking up.
It's tricky though, because ifyou speak up, you might expose
yourself.
And some people are not willingto do that.
So what I'm playing devil'sadvocate here.
(08:11):
So I'm an officer, I want tospeak up because I'm not an
officer, but we're playing alonghere.
An officer, I see someonestruggling, they go speak up,
but they're told they're weak,they're told they're not strong
enough, they can't handle thejob, give me your gun or
whatever, like just throwing abunch of ideas out there.
How do I speak up as a fellowofficer if leadership says that
to them?
SPEAKER_03 (08:31):
Oh, if you're outside, you're not the person
that's struggling, you'rewanting to speak.
SPEAKER_00 (08:36):
My experience is that people who str who struggle
and speak up are the ones whokind of like the the first one
to speak up if they don't havesomeone backing them up or
supporting them, not from anadministration, but a colleague
or someone who's middlemanagement, as you said, they
tend to be shunned or they tendto be told, like, well, if you
can't handle the job, don't dothe job.
(08:57):
So, how do we speak up withoutthe fear of retribution or what
have you?
SPEAKER_03 (09:02):
This is gonna sound like sidestepping, but contact
your union your union rep andmake sure that there's somebody
that you can trust.
Now, if that's not the case,find somebody that you can trust
in the department.
Uh, if there's nobody in thedepartment that you can trust,
you may not be in the rightdepartment.
(09:24):
I'm just I'm just being honest.
But if there's somebody that youcan trust, if there's a union
rep that you can trust, reachout to them.
If there's a peer support personaround that you feel like you
can trust, have a conversation.
You don't need to discloseeverything.
You don't need to say, you canall all it has to be is like,
hey, I've been experiencing alot of stress.
(09:45):
Stress is very human.
Stress is not a diagnosis,stress is not going to make
anybody take your gun away fromyou.
Okay.
So, hey, I've been under a lotof stress, been under a lot of
pressure, work and home.
I, you know, I need maybe needto, you know, have a game plan.
(10:05):
What is your goal in bringing itup?
Do you need time off?
Do you need to, you know, go seesomebody, and that's going to
require you to have to takeappointments during your shift
at some point.
Figure out kind of like whatyour end goal is.
If you don't know what your endgoal is, that's okay too.
But have a person, at least oneperson that you can trust in the
(10:29):
department and actuallycultivate that relationship
before if you're not in a placeright now where you're
struggling, cultivate thatrelationship before you ever
even get to that point.
Because the number one indicatorof how well you're going to
bounce back from a criticalincident is the support system
you have before that incidentever even happens.
SPEAKER_01 (10:51):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (10:52):
So making sure that you're building connections
preemptively so that ifsomething does happen, you you
have that backing.
But then if it comes down to itand and you need time off or you
just need some extra assistancein whatever way that that looks,
then have that conversation witha union rep present just to
(11:14):
cover your ass and or a peersupport person or you know, have
that meeting and see how itgoes.
And I would go up the chain.
I wouldn't go straight tostraight to the big guy or
anything, but if that makessense.
SPEAKER_00 (11:26):
Oh, yeah, chain of command goes a long way.
I agree.
SPEAKER_03 (11:30):
And really just talking to a peer, even if you
don't you're not willing to goto your sergeant or lieutenant
or whoever, just expressingsaying things out loud can be
very powerful if you've beenholding them in for a long time,
because the opposite ofdepression is expression.
(11:50):
And if you're not activelyexpressing, you're actively
suppressing.
And so men in particular have areally hard time expressing
things that they're dealing withinternally or things that
they're thinking aboutinternally.
And so if you're able to justturn that pressure valve a
little bit, you might find thatyou don't even need to go talk
(12:12):
to a sergeant.
You might find that just thatone little conversation with
somebody that you trust isenough to let you take a breath
of fresh air.
And then you know they've gotyour back.
And then, you know, that can canbegin to help, right?
It's not gonna changeeverything, but it can it can
(12:33):
certainly help.
SPEAKER_00 (12:34):
I think I gotta steal that one from you.
The opposite of depression isexpression.
I'm gonna steal that one fromyou.
That's a great way to do that.
By all means, absolutely, it'sabsolutely true, by the way.
So I really appreciate that.
I I think that what you alsosaid is true, and one of the
things that I encourage some ofmy guys to do is go through peer
support because peer support isexactly that.
(12:56):
And if you have, you know, anamazing peer support team,
they'll understand what you knowthat you need to talk to someone
and anything.
And it sometimes that could be acolleague, that could be, you
know, sometimes peer support haspeople who are more in the
higher level administrationworld, you know, but that still
doesn't mean they can't supportyou and help you.
(13:16):
And I really push people to usepeer support because even though
I have a lot of knowledgebecause of my work and all that,
I truly don't know what it is todo your job.
And I will never pretend I do.
And having a peer support personwho knows and may know what
you're going through because oftheir own shit or what have you
is so important.
I really encourage peer supportuse.
SPEAKER_03 (13:38):
Yeah.
And I think it's important toremember that there are
limitations.
There, you know, peer support istrained, but they are also not
clinicians most of the time.
It's on a rare occasion you getthat unicorn.
But I think that understandingthat they're there and and they
can be extremely helpful.
(14:00):
And then being able torecognize, though, if and when
you need that next level of careand need to go talk to a
licensed mental health clinicianwho is trained to be working
with first responders andtrauma.
SPEAKER_00 (14:17):
Yeah, we I have a colleague of mine who is a
therapist, happens to be apolice officer, also.
And he said that, you know,culturally competent is getting
thrown around way too easily.
And so he we're trying to find aword we've come up with
culturally aware as a way,because I think that is it's
also important to find atherapist that is culturally
(14:38):
aware or knowledgeable of whathappens in that world.
It doesn't mean they've beenthrough it, just means they know
about it.
And while your EAP is an amazingresource, and I really support a
use of an employee assistanceprogram, sometimes they don't
have that culturally awarecultural awareness of what
they're going through.
And when you feel that, and I'myou correct me if I'm wrong, I'm
(15:00):
not a first responder, but thisis what I've been told.
Oh man, they won't be able tohandle it.
Let me just fucking like say yesto everything and say I'm safe
and just move on.
SPEAKER_03 (15:10):
Basically, yeah.
They're they're gonna find a wayto skirt around the system.
And sometimes it's notnecessarily like they won't be
able to handle it, but I'm notgonna even waste my time.
I'm not going to waste myenergy.
This and they almost hold on totheir trauma and their
(15:31):
experiences as if you're notprivileged enough because you've
not lived it.
You don't get to hear mydeepest, darkest experiences.
And I know that sounds kind ofstrange, but I also know that
you know exactly what I'mtalking about because it's these
(15:51):
things that happen are, youknow, trauma runs really deep in
our system.
It's not in our brain, it's inour body.
And when that when we carry itfor that long, it it's almost
like it becomes this sacredthing.
And we don't want to share itwith just anybody.
It's like I'm not going to castpearls at swine kind of thing.
(16:14):
And I'm not talking, I'm not,I'm not saying the therapists
are swine, but I'm saying likeit's called pigs, but anyway.
unknown (16:23):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (16:24):
But we we value, we we put this high regard on this
thing that changed us.
And it's not necessarily a, youknow, that we put this high
value on it, but it's it's justso personal that we we hold
tight to it, and we're not gonnalet just anybody hear about it
(16:47):
and experience it.
SPEAKER_00 (16:49):
So yeah, I think it's a badge, a badge of honor,
I would come up with.
And one of the things that I'veI can't remember where I read
this, but that I stole this fromsomeone else too, is that first
responders struggle with aparticular diagnosis that's just
for them, and it's calledchronic uniqueness.
You can't understand where wecome from.
(17:09):
And I think that that's what youwere trying to say.
Correct me if I'm wrong, butthis chronic uniqueness, and
like when people say thesethings that are unique and you
wouldn't understand, I'm like,oh, so you're special just like
everyone else.
SPEAKER_03 (17:23):
Right.
Well, and it because that traumais a it's so deeply personal.
And it and it is the trauma thatwe experience as human beings,
every traumatic experience isunique, but we there's this
already ingrained us versus themin the culture that we just kind
(17:46):
of like take that to anotherlevel.
And when you start understandingtrauma and how it shows up in
the brain and the body and thenervous system, you start to
realize that it's just humanbiology, you're just a human,
and that can be really hard forsome people to accept.
SPEAKER_00 (18:06):
Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait.
First responders are humans?
I thought they were like robotsof some sort.
That's why I watch Robocop.
SPEAKER_03 (18:13):
It's a little known secret.
unknown (18:15):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (18:16):
Well, I won't tell anyone, no one listens anyway.
So we're I and I do believe inschisms and scissors, depending
on where you come from andsimilar processes.
But one of the things that Itell people is that having more
resources than less isimportant.
So having a peer support, havingSism is very helpful.
One of the other things, too, isthat I strongly encourage anyone
(18:38):
who listens to this and whoeverknows me to do a wellness visit
with a specialized, culturallyaware first first responder
therapist because those wellnessvisits once a year can be so
valuable.
That doesn't mean you're goingthrough stuff.
Maybe you're going throughnothing.
And it's just like, hey, how areyou doing?
(18:59):
Because wellness is not like tome, we it's crazy that you know,
for I go always with the exampleof firefighters.
Firefighters have cancerscreenings, but they don't send,
you know, PCP doctor to docancer screening.
It's someone who specialized inthe cancer treatment or cancer
like they're looking for.
Well, for your checkout from theneck up, you want someone who
specialized with firstresponders and do mental health.
(19:21):
I think that's not that muchdifferent.
And what when wellness visits, Ialways feel like anyone can do
them.
By the way, I encourageleadership to do that.
I have a few chiefs thatactually come and see me too.
But the wellness visit hastwo-prong effect.
It'll and the checkout from theneck up is helpful once a year.
And then you can create arelationship with a therapist
(19:42):
and say, Oh shit, this personmakes sense, or this person was
willing to listen to me, or theymade like I can reach out to
them as needed.
So if something happens duringthe course of that year, or
you're like, I don't know whatto do with this, let me call
them and it's HIPAA compliant,it's protected, and you can
start doing therapy with them.
I think that's another great wayto create another resource for
(20:03):
everyone to do that wellnessvisit yearly.
SPEAKER_03 (20:06):
Yeah, I agree.
And I think one of the bestthings a department can do, and
and I don't want to say if theyhave the resources, I want to
say if they're willing toallocate the resources to it, is
having a department embeddedmental health clinician or
somebody that is dedicated to,you know, because you could have
(20:28):
somebody that's, you know, maybeworks with three or four small
departments or something likethat.
But somebody who's dedicated totheir department, because you
get the opportunity then toactually build that relationship
and the back to the connection,because it takes a while to earn
(20:49):
trust in general, as humanbeings, let alone, you know, as
first responders.
And so having somebody that isgoing to be well received and
and maybe a backup person,because not every person and
therapist are going to drive.
Like you're you're just, andthat's another thing, too, is
(21:10):
what I hear a lot is yeah, well,I went to therapy once and and
it was shit, and so I'm nevergonna do that again.
And I'm like, well, maybe youjust had the wrong person.
Like it happens.
I've I've gone through four orfive therapists in my life, and
and it wasn't for you know, I'mnot I've not shopping, but you
(21:32):
know, there were certain onesthat served me great for the
season that I was in, and thenit fizzled out, and I there
wasn't a whole lot more growthhappening, or there were certain
ones that I saw three or fourtimes and I was like, this is
not gonna work, and that's okay.
But again, we don't want toexpose our badge of honor, and
(21:55):
you know, not too many peopleare privileged enough to
experience that with us, but Ithink that.
That having an embedded ordedicated mental health
clinician is an incrediblybeneficial thing if departments
are willing to allocate theresources to it.
SPEAKER_00 (22:13):
So many other things I want to mention about that,
but I'm going to go quicklybecause I really, really, really
want to talk about time servedin your book.
But one of the things I wouldsay is I'm not everyone's cup of
tea.
While I have the culturalawareness, not everyone likes
me.
Nothing wrong with that.
I know a lot of culturally awarepeople.
And some people don't want totalk to a dude, they want to
(22:33):
talk to a woman.
Again, I know women who do whoare first responder trained in
mental health clinicians.
I'll send it to you.
But ultimately, there's twothings therapists in this world
have to understand.
If you're a first respondercompetent person, I always go
after the fourth session.
Hey, is this still working foryou?
If it's not working for you,that's cool.
(22:54):
I'll find you someone whoprobably would be a better fit.
I think it's working, but I wantto hear your point of view.
There's a lot of respect thatyou get from being open and
like, hey, I'm not this may notbe working and that's cool.
Or hey, you know what?
I got I got the shit I needed toget off my back.
I'm good.
I don't need this, and maybe wecan go every quarter.
Again, having that conversationopenly makes it so much better
(23:18):
because again, most of the timepeople are like, What, you think
I'm done?
No, I didn't say that.
I just said that I want to makesure, you know, and that chronic
uniqueness, as we talkedearlier, becomes a little less
unique when you're able to trusta person and talk about it.
So when I mention that and beingokay with and the clinician
thing, I was a uh the jaildiversion program in Framingham
(23:42):
when it started.
I was one of the firstclinicians there.
And we were right along.
Now it's called co-responsemodel.
CITs are similar, they'redifferent, but they're similar.
And it's good to have thoseclinicians because what I found
is when I first started, theywould I wasn't really liked, and
that's fine because I was partof the hug a thug program, and
that's okay.
I'm not upset about that.
(24:02):
But eventually some guys wouldbe, hey Steve, you're coming
with me today.
All right.
And then they would talk abouttheir own stressors because hey,
you're met the and just becauseI was embedded and I had, oh,
this guy understands us, I wasthere, they gave me a lot more
from those conversations, andthat they probably would ever
talk to a therapist.
So having that one embeddedperson is really important.
(24:24):
I'll play devil's advocate.
I've heard someone say to me,Well, because I know them, I
don't want them to talk about mein the station.
And I go, Well, what did what dothey have to win by doing so?
But anyway, you know, let's go,but let's go to your books.
I want to hear about your books.
I know that you dopresentations, and that's called
Time Served, but I know you alsohave two books, Beat the Burnout
(24:46):
and uh Responder Reset.
Which one do you want to talkabout first?
Which one is your baby?
Which one is your latestendeavor?
Tell me more about that.
SPEAKER_03 (24:55):
Yeah, so I do a lot of different presentations.
Time served was a cool, uniqueone that I did for corrections
officers and probation officers.
And that was that was really funto do.
But um, my first book was Beatthe Burnout, and that was
published earlier last year, andit really is not a memoir.
(25:18):
It is, I did a ton of researchbecause I'm a big nerd.
And so I have some of my ownexperiences in there just to
kind of weave it in as a conduitfor the lessons.
But I basically reverse engineerburnout in in the book, in the
12 chapters.
And I take you from the verybasics and the foundations.
(25:39):
If you are already crispy, Itake into account that you may
not have a whole lot of braincapacity for complex thought and
critical thinking.
So the first third of it iswritten very in very simple
terms to get you through towhere, you know, you have
actionable steps.
(25:59):
Every three pages, there's a newaction that you can take, a new
thing that you can implement.
And then as it goes, it itdevelops into more nuance and
more complexity and and moredeeper thought.
So beat the burnout preventionand recovery solutions for
frontline burnout.
And then later last year, sojust a couple months ago, I
(26:21):
dropped responder reset 99real-time tactics for frontline
regulation.
And that is, I love both booksequally.
And I'm just finishing up theaudible version of Beat the
Burnout, but Responder Reset isso fun and so unique.
And I love the way that it'sformatted.
So it has a really robust tableof contents and it's a read this
(26:45):
win style book.
So you read the first 10 pagesto understand how to use it.
And then when you need it,because you're gonna keep it in
your duty bag, in your locker,in your glove box, on the table
at the fire department, whatit's it's gonna be there when
you need it, hopefully.
And you're going to pull it upor pull up the table of contents
(27:07):
and look at the 99 differentoptions for whatever you're
experiencing.
So read this when you're wiredbut tired.
Read this when you want toconnect to your spouse, but
don't know how or you can't.
Read this when you just had acritical incident.
So then each page is a or eachentry is a one-page entry.
(27:27):
And it gives you what you mightbe inclined to do, what your
normal, what you're the burnoutbait, right?
So don't take the bait.
It gives you a tactical trait, atactical trade-off, so something
else to do instead.
And a lot of them are based onEMDR style movements,
proprioceptive input, grounding,breathing, physical things to
(27:49):
put into action, a little blurpon why this works, and then a
little mental note to lock itin.
And I I've never seen anything,any other book like that.
And so it just like it justmakes me giddy to talk about it.
But those are both of my books,they complement each other
really well.
So the one is more of like thedeep wisdom, Mr.
(28:10):
Miyagi foundation, and then theother one is is your workhorse.
That's your your backup when youneed it.
SPEAKER_00 (28:17):
Well, I like that you understand the language
because when you mentiontactical, people will listen to
that methods or tricks or mentalhealth support.
They don't like that shit.
So definitely like I liketactical.
I think that's one of thosethings that people really get.
And you know, having the theEMDR idea of like bilateral
tapping is so important.
(28:38):
I know it helps calm peopledown.
And one of the things that Italk about with people is
somatic stuff, and I'm sure thatthere's stuff in that the book
that you do.
SPEAKER_03 (28:49):
All yeah, all kinds of it, lots of different unique
combinations of things with youknow, you're not doing
self-administered EMDR.
That's not what it is, but it'sit's some bilateral stimulation.
SPEAKER_00 (29:01):
That's why I use those words.
SPEAKER_03 (29:04):
Yes, yes, and it different, lots of different
tactics and and options andmodalities.
So there's something in therefor everybody.
SPEAKER_00 (29:15):
But I and I think that that's you know why.
And there's a book calledTapping.
If you ever want to read that,that tells you a lot about the
tapping.
It is not EMDR set, but it talksabout that.
And there's also other thingsthat really work about
stimulation of your body,whether it's tapping your chin,
pulling on your ears.
There's a lot of little thingsthat you can do that will calm
you down and like at leastlessen the anxiety.
(29:38):
So I'm happy that someone haswritten tactical ways to talk
about it, not just therapeuticways.
So thank you for that.
SPEAKER_03 (29:45):
Well, yes.
And I I am a master practitionerin EFT.
So the emotional freedomtechnique.
So I I have actually have theknowledge in the background.
I'm not just throwing randomstuff out there.
Like there's there's a lot ofcertifications and study behind
it, and yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (30:01):
Well, I'm I'm gonna joke around with you a little
bit here.
You had me at your nerd.
But yeah, no, I get what you'resaying, and it's it it really
is.
I'm a nerd at heart, also, but Ialso talk the way I talk because
I think that being nerdy and youdon't have to intellectualize
everything.
SPEAKER_03 (30:20):
Yes, yeah.
I have I I have to work a littlebit extra hard.
That that's like a double, Idon't know.
I have to work harder to takeall of my mega nerd status and
bring it into bring it to peoplein a way that it makes sense for
(30:42):
them.
And and I don't mean that, I'mnot saying I'm dumbing things
down, but I'm saying to make itconsumable, to make it
digestible, to make itapplicable to how they can use
the information.
And I've been pretty good atkind of synthesizing things and
then and then putting it in aframe where people are like,
(31:02):
wow, you make it make sense.
And I'm like, okay, that's thegoal.
Like, if I can do that, thengreat.
SPEAKER_00 (31:09):
Well, no, but meeting them where they're at is
the word I use, you know, andI'm not dumbing it down, but me
talking about cognitivedistortion versus fucked up
thought processes, I think thesecond one is a lot more
palpable for my role, my peoplethan talking about cognitive
distortion is gonna be like,what the fuck?
So I always say it's not dumbingit down, it's meeting your crowd
where they're at.
(31:29):
When I'm doing presentationswith mental health therapists,
there's a whole differentlanguage that I use.
And I'll give you my trick alsoof being able to meet people
where they're at.
This is my second language, myfirst language is French, so I
have to dumb down everything inmy brain in order to speak in
English, so it works outperfectly for me.
SPEAKER_03 (31:48):
Wow, that's so interesting.
SPEAKER_00 (31:50):
Make me say a TH word, you'll see what you'll
you'll definitely see that I'm aFrench Canadian.
Okay, but don't worry, mygirlfriend makes fun of me all
the time.
Anyway, but how about telling ushow we can get those books?
How can we reach you?
And if you're doing present, ifwe can get you for presentations
and stuff, how do we get allthat?
SPEAKER_03 (32:11):
Sure.
Well, the books are most easilyaccessible on Amazon, but
everything is linked up onakdesani.com.
That is the hub.
If you want to find me onsocials, you can just if you
could just search ak design.
But if you go to the website,there all the socials are linked
up there.
Information on speaking and thebooks and coaching and all of
(32:33):
that stuff is that is thecentral hub.
SPEAKER_00 (32:36):
Well, I hope people go do do that.
I will put in the show notes andit'll be linked and people can
click on it.
This has been exceptionally fun.
I want to make sure I say thatbecause I agree.
I think that me and you talk thesame language in some ways.
And that's what I think isimportant.
Just by curiosity, when is it?
Do you know when the Audible isgoing to be out?
SPEAKER_03 (32:58):
I've got I think three chapters left.
I was so close to being done,and then the holidays hit, and
my whole family got sick, andmyself included.
So hopefully, right now we're inthe first week of January.
Hopefully, definitely by the endof the month.
SPEAKER_00 (33:14):
All right.
So this will come out inFebruary.
So hopefully people can go getyour audible because again,
sorry, my first responder world.
I know you guys sitting thereand reading a book isn't your
thing, but being able to listento it on Audible, that's your
thing.
So go get her book.
I'm looking forward to readingit myself.
Again, I tell my audience alwaysthe truth.
I haven't read it.
And if I did, I would tell you,but I didn't.
(33:36):
But I'm looking forward toreading it.
And I will read it.
I think Audible, I'll maybe getthat too, but I'd rather read
it.
But I want to thank you for yourtime.
I want to make sure you knowalso, if you ever want to come
back, let me know.
Because I really enjoyed ourconversation.
I think I have more questions toask.
This was a blank sheet when westarted.
(33:57):
So now there's all these thingsthat I gotta come back to.
But aka the Santi the Zante.
SPEAKER_03 (34:06):
Thank you.
I appreciate you.
SPEAKER_00 (34:08):
And for those of you still listening, look forward to
seeing you in the next episode.
SPEAKER_02 (34:14):
Please like, subscribe, and follow this
podcast on your favoriteplatform.
A glowing review is alwayshelpful.
And as a reminder, this podcastis for informational,
educational, and entertainmentpurposes only.
If you're struggling with amental health or substance abuse
issue, please reach out to aprofessional counselor for
consultation.
If you are in a mental healthcrisis, call 988 for assistance.
(34:38):
This number is available in theUnited States and Canada.
Welcome to Resilience Development in Action
with Steve Bisson.
This is the podcast dedicated tofirst responder mental health,
helping police, fire, EMS,dispatchers, and paramedics
create better growthenvironments for themselves and
their teams.
Let's get started.ai.
SPEAKER_00 (00:37):
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I'm gonna keep on talking aboutit because I love it.
I've had about a year and ahalf, 18 months practice with
it, and I still enjoy it.
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that will save you time andmoney.
And I highly encourage you to doso.
Well, aka the Zante or Desantewith a Z.
How are you?
I know we're doing second parthere.
I know you introduced yourselfalready, but this has been a
great conversation.
I really enjoyed it.
And I like to shift gearsbecause you talked about
(02:10):
something earlier that you werea deputy sheriff.
And I've always wondered about acouple of things because I work
with a lot of people who sayleadership doesn't listen,
leadership doesn't get it,leadership blankety blank.
I always wonder what leadershipcan do differently, not only to
support their staff for XYZreasons, but also around mental
(02:31):
health.
Because some people fear tellingtheir chief deputy, sheriff,
name it, that they have had someof those issues because they're
afraid their gun is going to betaken away and stuff like that.
So I would love to hear moreabout what do you think
leadership can do differently inorder to support their staff,
particularly when that in themental health part.
SPEAKER_03 (02:52):
I think it has to be on both ends.
And hear me out.
There is there's a rift betweenleadership and line level guys
or even middle management.
And a lot of times we justassume that they're not going to
get it.
So we don't even bother.
We don't bring it up.
When I and I'll be honest, Ileft full-time law enforcement a
(03:15):
little over 10 years ago now.
And when I left, it was becauseI had PTSD, suicidal ideation,
severe depression, adrenalfatigue, all of these things.
What I told them was that I wasleaving to go further my
education, which I did, but Idid not disclose the real
underlying undercurrent of why Iwas leaving because A, I was
(03:42):
leaving and I assumed theywouldn't care.
And B, I didn't want them tothink that I was weak because
that stigma was very strong andit still lingers in the in the
first responder world today.
But I think that we have to stopassuming that they're not gonna
(04:04):
get it.
Now, I'm not saying if if you'veexperienced, if you've seen
examples of, you know, somebodyspeaking up and then that the
that set of admin discards them,you know, take that as evidence,
take that, take that as data andinformation.
But we also have to be willingto speak up if something is
(04:28):
going on.
Now, leadership, my biggestthing is you need to not just
put things into policy, but ofcourse put things into policy.
However, make sure that yourleadership has good education
around mental health issues,around my ex my area of
(04:52):
expertise is burnout.
So being able to recognizethings and signs of burnout
because those are things that wehave normalized that we have the
ability to mitigate, but if wedon't, they will become bigger
issues.
But actually supporting yourpeople in a real way, actually
connecting with them, actuallygoing beyond just the pizza
(05:14):
party and the the written letterat a boy and sitting down and
having a conversation.
You know, if if you're middlemanagement, make it a point that
if you have six guys on yourshift, that once every quarter
you sit down with each one ofthem and have a cup of coffee
and say you listen to them aboutwhat's going on in their life.
(05:37):
Listen to them about whatfeedback they might have about
the job, right?
Like there might be things thatthey're holding back if they
don't feel like they can come toyou.
And if they feel like they cancome to you with work stuff and
they feel like they can come toyou with home stuff, and it's
not necessarily a counselingsession, but just like, man, you
(05:59):
know, my mom's in the hospitaland the wife can't get off of
work and I gotta, I gotta takeoff to watch the kids or
something like that.
If they feel comfortable enoughto say that to you, and you're
able to say, why don't you takethe shift and go be with your
family?
That's gonna mean so much moreto them than just some policy
(06:22):
that they have to sign or someextra snacks at the end of their
shift or whatever the case is.
So what I'm getting at is youreally have to just genuinely
connect with people and thenhave policies in place to fall
back on so that when things dohappen, the policies hold
everything up and you can justbe a human and connect in that
(06:44):
moment.
SPEAKER_00 (06:44):
A few things you said that really struck me is
connection.
And I think that that's the keyto anything that we do as human
beings, never mind in the firstresponder world.
There's a sergeant that I workwith around here that you say
quarterly, sit down and have acup of coffee.
He found it a lot more helpfulto sit next to them for in the
cruiser once every quarter.
SPEAKER_01 (07:05):
Sure.
SPEAKER_00 (07:06):
And especially with men, side to side, they'll talk
a whole lot more and thenface-to-face.
Women, they can do face-to-facea lot easier.
But men in particular, they willtalk a whole lot more with a
shoulder-to-shoulderconversation than they will with
a face-to-face conversation.
And he does this quarterly withhis staff, and I really truly
appreciate that because theyounger officers, as you know,
(07:27):
we have a lot of young, youngofficers coming into the field
right now, and they really feelappreciated and supported, and
that changes a lot.
And I know it's middlemanagement to be a sergeant, but
at the same time, that's whereyou're going to start believing
in administration because ifyour middle management is
supportive, you will think thatthe captain and the lieutenant
and the deputy and uh everythingelse will be supportive too.
(07:51):
I don't know all about the rankseverywhere and every because
everyone has slightly differentthings, but that is absolutely
true.
The other part that youmentioned is that speaking up.
It's tricky though, because ifyou speak up, you might expose
yourself.
And some people are not willingto do that.
So what I'm playing devil'sadvocate here.
(08:11):
So I'm an officer, I want tospeak up because I'm not an
officer, but we're playing alonghere.
An officer, I see someonestruggling, they go speak up,
but they're told they're weak,they're told they're not strong
enough, they can't handle thejob, give me your gun or
whatever, like just throwing abunch of ideas out there.
How do I speak up as a fellowofficer if leadership says that
to them?
SPEAKER_03 (08:31):
Oh, if you're outside, you're not the person
that's struggling, you'rewanting to speak.
SPEAKER_00 (08:36):
My experience is that people who str who struggle
and speak up are the ones whokind of like the the first one
to speak up if they don't havesomeone backing them up or
supporting them, not from anadministration, but a colleague
or someone who's middlemanagement, as you said, they
tend to be shunned or they tendto be told, like, well, if you
can't handle the job, don't dothe job.
(08:57):
So, how do we speak up withoutthe fear of retribution or what
have you?
SPEAKER_03 (09:02):
This is gonna sound like sidestepping, but contact
your union your union rep andmake sure that there's somebody
that you can trust.
Now, if that's not the case,find somebody that you can trust
in the department.
Uh, if there's nobody in thedepartment that you can trust,
you may not be in the rightdepartment.
(09:24):
I'm just I'm just being honest.
But if there's somebody that youcan trust, if there's a union
rep that you can trust, reachout to them.
If there's a peer support personaround that you feel like you
can trust, have a conversation.
You don't need to discloseeverything.
You don't need to say, you canall all it has to be is like,
hey, I've been experiencing alot of stress.
(09:45):
Stress is very human.
Stress is not a diagnosis,stress is not going to make
anybody take your gun away fromyou.
Okay.
So, hey, I've been under a lotof stress, been under a lot of
pressure, work and home.
I, you know, I need maybe needto, you know, have a game plan.
(10:05):
What is your goal in bringing itup?
Do you need time off?
Do you need to, you know, go seesomebody, and that's going to
require you to have to takeappointments during your shift
at some point.
Figure out kind of like whatyour end goal is.
If you don't know what your endgoal is, that's okay too.
But have a person, at least oneperson that you can trust in the
(10:29):
department and actuallycultivate that relationship
before if you're not in a placeright now where you're
struggling, cultivate thatrelationship before you ever
even get to that point.
Because the number one indicatorof how well you're going to
bounce back from a criticalincident is the support system
you have before that incidentever even happens.
SPEAKER_01 (10:51):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (10:52):
So making sure that you're building connections
preemptively so that ifsomething does happen, you you
have that backing.
But then if it comes down to itand and you need time off or you
just need some extra assistancein whatever way that that looks,
then have that conversation witha union rep present just to
(11:14):
cover your ass and or a peersupport person or you know, have
that meeting and see how itgoes.
And I would go up the chain.
I wouldn't go straight tostraight to the big guy or
anything, but if that makessense.
SPEAKER_00 (11:26):
Oh, yeah, chain of command goes a long way.
I agree.
SPEAKER_03 (11:30):
And really just talking to a peer, even if you
don't you're not willing to goto your sergeant or lieutenant
or whoever, just expressingsaying things out loud can be
very powerful if you've beenholding them in for a long time,
because the opposite ofdepression is expression.
(11:50):
And if you're not activelyexpressing, you're actively
suppressing.
And so men in particular have areally hard time expressing
things that they're dealing withinternally or things that
they're thinking aboutinternally.
And so if you're able to justturn that pressure valve a
little bit, you might find thatyou don't even need to go talk
(12:12):
to a sergeant.
You might find that just thatone little conversation with
somebody that you trust isenough to let you take a breath
of fresh air.
And then you know they've gotyour back.
And then, you know, that can canbegin to help, right?
It's not gonna changeeverything, but it can it can
(12:33):
certainly help.
SPEAKER_00 (12:34):
I think I gotta steal that one from you.
The opposite of depression isexpression.
I'm gonna steal that one fromyou.
That's a great way to do that.
By all means, absolutely, it'sabsolutely true, by the way.
So I really appreciate that.
I I think that what you alsosaid is true, and one of the
things that I encourage some ofmy guys to do is go through peer
support because peer support isexactly that.
(12:56):
And if you have, you know, anamazing peer support team,
they'll understand what you knowthat you need to talk to someone
and anything.
And it sometimes that could be acolleague, that could be, you
know, sometimes peer support haspeople who are more in the
higher level administrationworld, you know, but that still
doesn't mean they can't supportyou and help you.
(13:16):
And I really push people to usepeer support because even though
I have a lot of knowledgebecause of my work and all that,
I truly don't know what it is todo your job.
And I will never pretend I do.
And having a peer support personwho knows and may know what
you're going through because oftheir own shit or what have you
is so important.
I really encourage peer supportuse.
SPEAKER_03 (13:38):
Yeah.
And I think it's important toremember that there are
limitations.
There, you know, peer support istrained, but they are also not
clinicians most of the time.
It's on a rare occasion you getthat unicorn.
But I think that understandingthat they're there and and they
can be extremely helpful.
(14:00):
And then being able torecognize, though, if and when
you need that next level of careand need to go talk to a
licensed mental health clinicianwho is trained to be working
with first responders andtrauma.
SPEAKER_00 (14:17):
Yeah, we I have a colleague of mine who is a
therapist, happens to be apolice officer, also.
And he said that, you know,culturally competent is getting
thrown around way too easily.
And so he we're trying to find aword we've come up with
culturally aware as a way,because I think that is it's
also important to find atherapist that is culturally
(14:38):
aware or knowledgeable of whathappens in that world.
It doesn't mean they've beenthrough it, just means they know
about it.
And while your EAP is an amazingresource, and I really support a
use of an employee assistanceprogram, sometimes they don't
have that culturally awarecultural awareness of what
they're going through.
And when you feel that, and I'myou correct me if I'm wrong, I'm
(15:00):
not a first responder, but thisis what I've been told.
Oh man, they won't be able tohandle it.
Let me just fucking like say yesto everything and say I'm safe
and just move on.
SPEAKER_03 (15:10):
Basically, yeah.
They're they're gonna find a wayto skirt around the system.
And sometimes it's notnecessarily like they won't be
able to handle it, but I'm notgonna even waste my time.
I'm not going to waste myenergy.
This and they almost hold on totheir trauma and their
(15:31):
experiences as if you're notprivileged enough because you've
not lived it.
You don't get to hear mydeepest, darkest experiences.
And I know that sounds kind ofstrange, but I also know that
you know exactly what I'mtalking about because it's these
(15:51):
things that happen are, youknow, trauma runs really deep in
our system.
It's not in our brain, it's inour body.
And when that when we carry itfor that long, it it's almost
like it becomes this sacredthing.
And we don't want to share itwith just anybody.
It's like I'm not going to castpearls at swine kind of thing.
(16:14):
And I'm not talking, I'm not,I'm not saying the therapists
are swine, but I'm saying likeit's called pigs, but anyway.
unknown (16:23):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (16:24):
But we we value, we we put this high regard on this
thing that changed us.
And it's not necessarily a, youknow, that we put this high
value on it, but it's it's justso personal that we we hold
tight to it, and we're not gonnalet just anybody hear about it
(16:47):
and experience it.
SPEAKER_00 (16:49):
So yeah, I think it's a badge, a badge of honor,
I would come up with.
And one of the things that I'veI can't remember where I read
this, but that I stole this fromsomeone else too, is that first
responders struggle with aparticular diagnosis that's just
for them, and it's calledchronic uniqueness.
You can't understand where wecome from.
(17:09):
And I think that that's what youwere trying to say.
Correct me if I'm wrong, butthis chronic uniqueness, and
like when people say thesethings that are unique and you
wouldn't understand, I'm like,oh, so you're special just like
everyone else.
SPEAKER_03 (17:23):
Right.
Well, and it because that traumais a it's so deeply personal.
And it and it is the trauma thatwe experience as human beings,
every traumatic experience isunique, but we there's this
already ingrained us versus themin the culture that we just kind
(17:46):
of like take that to anotherlevel.
And when you start understandingtrauma and how it shows up in
the brain and the body and thenervous system, you start to
realize that it's just humanbiology, you're just a human,
and that can be really hard forsome people to accept.
SPEAKER_00 (18:06):
Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait.
First responders are humans?
I thought they were like robotsof some sort.
That's why I watch Robocop.
SPEAKER_03 (18:13):
It's a little known secret.
unknown (18:15):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (18:16):
Well, I won't tell anyone, no one listens anyway.
So we're I and I do believe inschisms and scissors, depending
on where you come from andsimilar processes.
But one of the things that Itell people is that having more
resources than less isimportant.
So having a peer support, havingSism is very helpful.
One of the other things, too, isthat I strongly encourage anyone
(18:38):
who listens to this and whoeverknows me to do a wellness visit
with a specialized, culturallyaware first first responder
therapist because those wellnessvisits once a year can be so
valuable.
That doesn't mean you're goingthrough stuff.
Maybe you're going throughnothing.
And it's just like, hey, how areyou doing?
(18:59):
Because wellness is not like tome, we it's crazy that you know,
for I go always with the exampleof firefighters.
Firefighters have cancerscreenings, but they don't send,
you know, PCP doctor to docancer screening.
It's someone who specialized inthe cancer treatment or cancer
like they're looking for.
Well, for your checkout from theneck up, you want someone who
specialized with firstresponders and do mental health.
(19:21):
I think that's not that muchdifferent.
And what when wellness visits, Ialways feel like anyone can do
them.
By the way, I encourageleadership to do that.
I have a few chiefs thatactually come and see me too.
But the wellness visit hastwo-prong effect.
It'll and the checkout from theneck up is helpful once a year.
And then you can create arelationship with a therapist
(19:42):
and say, Oh shit, this personmakes sense, or this person was
willing to listen to me, or theymade like I can reach out to
them as needed.
So if something happens duringthe course of that year, or
you're like, I don't know whatto do with this, let me call
them and it's HIPAA compliant,it's protected, and you can
start doing therapy with them.
I think that's another great wayto create another resource for
(20:03):
everyone to do that wellnessvisit yearly.
SPEAKER_03 (20:06):
Yeah, I agree.
And I think one of the bestthings a department can do, and
and I don't want to say if theyhave the resources, I want to
say if they're willing toallocate the resources to it, is
having a department embeddedmental health clinician or
somebody that is dedicated to,you know, because you could have
(20:28):
somebody that's, you know, maybeworks with three or four small
departments or something likethat.
But somebody who's dedicated totheir department, because you
get the opportunity then toactually build that relationship
and the back to the connection,because it takes a while to earn
(20:49):
trust in general, as humanbeings, let alone, you know, as
first responders.
And so having somebody that isgoing to be well received and
and maybe a backup person,because not every person and
therapist are going to drive.
Like you're you're just, andthat's another thing, too, is
(21:10):
what I hear a lot is yeah, well,I went to therapy once and and
it was shit, and so I'm nevergonna do that again.
And I'm like, well, maybe youjust had the wrong person.
Like it happens.
I've I've gone through four orfive therapists in my life, and
and it wasn't for you know, I'mnot I've not shopping, but you
(21:32):
know, there were certain onesthat served me great for the
season that I was in, and thenit fizzled out, and I there
wasn't a whole lot more growthhappening, or there were certain
ones that I saw three or fourtimes and I was like, this is
not gonna work, and that's okay.
But again, we don't want toexpose our badge of honor, and
(21:55):
you know, not too many peopleare privileged enough to
experience that with us, but Ithink that.
That having an embedded ordedicated mental health
clinician is an incrediblybeneficial thing if departments
are willing to allocate theresources to it.
SPEAKER_00 (22:13):
So many other things I want to mention about that,
but I'm going to go quicklybecause I really, really, really
want to talk about time servedin your book.
But one of the things I wouldsay is I'm not everyone's cup of
tea.
While I have the culturalawareness, not everyone likes
me.
Nothing wrong with that.
I know a lot of culturally awarepeople.
And some people don't want totalk to a dude, they want to
(22:33):
talk to a woman.
Again, I know women who do whoare first responder trained in
mental health clinicians.
I'll send it to you.
But ultimately, there's twothings therapists in this world
have to understand.
If you're a first respondercompetent person, I always go
after the fourth session.
Hey, is this still working foryou?
If it's not working for you,that's cool.
(22:54):
I'll find you someone whoprobably would be a better fit.
I think it's working, but I wantto hear your point of view.
There's a lot of respect thatyou get from being open and
like, hey, I'm not this may notbe working and that's cool.
Or hey, you know what?
I got I got the shit I needed toget off my back.
I'm good.
I don't need this, and maybe wecan go every quarter.
Again, having that conversationopenly makes it so much better
(23:18):
because again, most of the timepeople are like, What, you think
I'm done?
No, I didn't say that.
I just said that I want to makesure, you know, and that chronic
uniqueness, as we talkedearlier, becomes a little less
unique when you're able to trusta person and talk about it.
So when I mention that and beingokay with and the clinician
thing, I was a uh the jaildiversion program in Framingham
(23:42):
when it started.
I was one of the firstclinicians there.
And we were right along.
Now it's called co-responsemodel.
CITs are similar, they'redifferent, but they're similar.
And it's good to have thoseclinicians because what I found
is when I first started, theywould I wasn't really liked, and
that's fine because I was partof the hug a thug program, and
that's okay.
I'm not upset about that.
(24:02):
But eventually some guys wouldbe, hey Steve, you're coming
with me today.
All right.
And then they would talk abouttheir own stressors because hey,
you're met the and just becauseI was embedded and I had, oh,
this guy understands us, I wasthere, they gave me a lot more
from those conversations, andthat they probably would ever
talk to a therapist.
So having that one embeddedperson is really important.
(24:24):
I'll play devil's advocate.
I've heard someone say to me,Well, because I know them, I
don't want them to talk about mein the station.
And I go, Well, what did what dothey have to win by doing so?
But anyway, you know, let's go,but let's go to your books.
I want to hear about your books.
I know that you dopresentations, and that's called
Time Served, but I know you alsohave two books, Beat the Burnout
(24:46):
and uh Responder Reset.
Which one do you want to talkabout first?
Which one is your baby?
Which one is your latestendeavor?
Tell me more about that.
SPEAKER_03 (24:55):
Yeah, so I do a lot of different presentations.
Time served was a cool, uniqueone that I did for corrections
officers and probation officers.
And that was that was really funto do.
But um, my first book was Beatthe Burnout, and that was
published earlier last year, andit really is not a memoir.
(25:18):
It is, I did a ton of researchbecause I'm a big nerd.
And so I have some of my ownexperiences in there just to
kind of weave it in as a conduitfor the lessons.
But I basically reverse engineerburnout in in the book, in the
12 chapters.
And I take you from the verybasics and the foundations.
(25:39):
If you are already crispy, Itake into account that you may
not have a whole lot of braincapacity for complex thought and
critical thinking.
So the first third of it iswritten very in very simple
terms to get you through towhere, you know, you have
actionable steps.
(25:59):
Every three pages, there's a newaction that you can take, a new
thing that you can implement.
And then as it goes, it itdevelops into more nuance and
more complexity and and moredeeper thought.
So beat the burnout preventionand recovery solutions for
frontline burnout.
And then later last year, sojust a couple months ago, I
(26:21):
dropped responder reset 99real-time tactics for frontline
regulation.
And that is, I love both booksequally.
And I'm just finishing up theaudible version of Beat the
Burnout, but Responder Reset isso fun and so unique.
And I love the way that it'sformatted.
So it has a really robust tableof contents and it's a read this
(26:45):
win style book.
So you read the first 10 pagesto understand how to use it.
And then when you need it,because you're gonna keep it in
your duty bag, in your locker,in your glove box, on the table
at the fire department, whatit's it's gonna be there when
you need it, hopefully.
And you're going to pull it upor pull up the table of contents
(27:07):
and look at the 99 differentoptions for whatever you're
experiencing.
So read this when you're wiredbut tired.
Read this when you want toconnect to your spouse, but
don't know how or you can't.
Read this when you just had acritical incident.
So then each page is a or eachentry is a one-page entry.
(27:27):
And it gives you what you mightbe inclined to do, what your
normal, what you're the burnoutbait, right?
So don't take the bait.
It gives you a tactical trait, atactical trade-off, so something
else to do instead.
And a lot of them are based onEMDR style movements,
proprioceptive input, grounding,breathing, physical things to
(27:49):
put into action, a little blurpon why this works, and then a
little mental note to lock itin.
And I I've never seen anything,any other book like that.
And so it just like it justmakes me giddy to talk about it.
But those are both of my books,they complement each other
really well.
So the one is more of like thedeep wisdom, Mr.
(28:10):
Miyagi foundation, and then theother one is is your workhorse.
That's your your backup when youneed it.
SPEAKER_00 (28:17):
Well, I like that you understand the language
because when you mentiontactical, people will listen to
that methods or tricks or mentalhealth support.
They don't like that shit.
So definitely like I liketactical.
I think that's one of thosethings that people really get.
And you know, having the theEMDR idea of like bilateral
tapping is so important.
(28:38):
I know it helps calm peopledown.
And one of the things that Italk about with people is
somatic stuff, and I'm sure thatthere's stuff in that the book
that you do.
SPEAKER_03 (28:49):
All yeah, all kinds of it, lots of different unique
combinations of things with youknow, you're not doing
self-administered EMDR.
That's not what it is, but it'sit's some bilateral stimulation.
SPEAKER_00 (29:01):
That's why I use those words.
SPEAKER_03 (29:04):
Yes, yes, and it different, lots of different
tactics and and options andmodalities.
So there's something in therefor everybody.
SPEAKER_00 (29:15):
But I and I think that that's you know why.
And there's a book calledTapping.
If you ever want to read that,that tells you a lot about the
tapping.
It is not EMDR set, but it talksabout that.
And there's also other thingsthat really work about
stimulation of your body,whether it's tapping your chin,
pulling on your ears.
There's a lot of little thingsthat you can do that will calm
you down and like at leastlessen the anxiety.
(29:38):
So I'm happy that someone haswritten tactical ways to talk
about it, not just therapeuticways.
So thank you for that.
SPEAKER_03 (29:45):
Well, yes.
And I I am a master practitionerin EFT.
So the emotional freedomtechnique.
So I I have actually have theknowledge in the background.
I'm not just throwing randomstuff out there.
Like there's there's a lot ofcertifications and study behind
it, and yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (30:01):
Well, I'm I'm gonna joke around with you a little
bit here.
You had me at your nerd.
But yeah, no, I get what you'resaying, and it's it it really
is.
I'm a nerd at heart, also, but Ialso talk the way I talk because
I think that being nerdy and youdon't have to intellectualize
everything.
SPEAKER_03 (30:20):
Yes, yeah.
I have I I have to work a littlebit extra hard.
That that's like a double, Idon't know.
I have to work harder to takeall of my mega nerd status and
bring it into bring it to peoplein a way that it makes sense for
(30:42):
them.
And and I don't mean that, I'mnot saying I'm dumbing things
down, but I'm saying to make itconsumable, to make it
digestible, to make itapplicable to how they can use
the information.
And I've been pretty good atkind of synthesizing things and
then and then putting it in aframe where people are like,
(31:02):
wow, you make it make sense.
And I'm like, okay, that's thegoal.
Like, if I can do that, thengreat.
SPEAKER_00 (31:09):
Well, no, but meeting them where they're at is
the word I use, you know, andI'm not dumbing it down, but me
talking about cognitivedistortion versus fucked up
thought processes, I think thesecond one is a lot more
palpable for my role, my peoplethan talking about cognitive
distortion is gonna be like,what the fuck?
So I always say it's not dumbingit down, it's meeting your crowd
where they're at.
(31:29):
When I'm doing presentationswith mental health therapists,
there's a whole differentlanguage that I use.
And I'll give you my trick alsoof being able to meet people
where they're at.
This is my second language, myfirst language is French, so I
have to dumb down everything inmy brain in order to speak in
English, so it works outperfectly for me.
SPEAKER_03 (31:48):
Wow, that's so interesting.
SPEAKER_00 (31:50):
Make me say a TH word, you'll see what you'll
you'll definitely see that I'm aFrench Canadian.
Okay, but don't worry, mygirlfriend makes fun of me all
the time.
Anyway, but how about telling ushow we can get those books?
How can we reach you?
And if you're doing present, ifwe can get you for presentations
and stuff, how do we get allthat?
SPEAKER_03 (32:11):
Sure.
Well, the books are most easilyaccessible on Amazon, but
everything is linked up onakdesani.com.
That is the hub.
If you want to find me onsocials, you can just if you
could just search ak design.
But if you go to the website,there all the socials are linked
up there.
Information on speaking and thebooks and coaching and all of
(32:33):
that stuff is that is thecentral hub.
SPEAKER_00 (32:36):
Well, I hope people go do do that.
I will put in the show notes andit'll be linked and people can
click on it.
This has been exceptionally fun.
I want to make sure I say thatbecause I agree.
I think that me and you talk thesame language in some ways.
And that's what I think isimportant.
Just by curiosity, when is it?
Do you know when the Audible isgoing to be out?
SPEAKER_03 (32:58):
I've got I think three chapters left.
I was so close to being done,and then the holidays hit, and
my whole family got sick, andmyself included.
So hopefully, right now we're inthe first week of January.
Hopefully, definitely by the endof the month.
SPEAKER_00 (33:14):
All right.
So this will come out inFebruary.
So hopefully people can go getyour audible because again,
sorry, my first responder world.
I know you guys sitting thereand reading a book isn't your
thing, but being able to listento it on Audible, that's your
thing.
So go get her book.
I'm looking forward to readingit myself.
Again, I tell my audience alwaysthe truth.
I haven't read it.
And if I did, I would tell you,but I didn't.
(33:36):
But I'm looking forward toreading it.
And I will read it.
I think Audible, I'll maybe getthat too, but I'd rather read
it.
But I want to thank you for yourtime.
I want to make sure you knowalso, if you ever want to come
back, let me know.
Because I really enjoyed ourconversation.
I think I have more questions toask.
This was a blank sheet when westarted.
(33:57):
So now there's all these thingsthat I gotta come back to.
But aka the Santi the Zante.
SPEAKER_03 (34:06):
Thank you.
I appreciate you.
SPEAKER_00 (34:08):
And for those of you still listening, look forward to
seeing you in the next episode.
SPEAKER_02 (34:14):
Please like, subscribe, and follow this
podcast on your favoriteplatform.
A glowing review is alwayshelpful.
And as a reminder, this podcastis for informational,
educational, and entertainmentpurposes only.
If you're struggling with amental health or substance abuse
issue, please reach out to aprofessional counselor for
consultation.
If you are in a mental healthcrisis, call 988 for assistance.
(34:38):
This number is available in theUnited States and Canada.
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