July 1, 2026 • 35 mins
The job trains you to scan for danger, move fast, and stay ready, but nobody hands you a clean off-switch when you walk back through your front door. We sit down with Dr Stephanie Conn, a former dispatcher and police officer turned first responder psychologist, to get real about what actually helps police, fire, EMS, dispatch, and corrections stay steady over the long haul.
We talk about resilience as a practice, not a personality trait. That means sleep discipline, boundaries, and recovery routines that fit real schedules, plus “performance” framing that makes wellness feel credible to skeptical crews. We also get into the so-called woo-woo tools like yoga, mindfulness, breathing, and how biofeedback can prove what your nervous system is doing even when you swear nothing is changing. If you want first responder mental health strategies you can apply tomorrow, this conversation stays grounded in the day-to-day reality of the work.
Family comes up in a big way. Hypervigilance can be an occupational adaptation on scene, but it can strain relationships when it follows you home. We break down how to “dial the hyper down” without losing your edge, why informed family support can be the strongest protective factor against secondary trauma, and how the slow grind of “death by a thousand cuts” can lead to compassion fatigue if you never pause to process.
We also dig into peer support: what it looks like when it is only reactive, what changes when it becomes responsive and progressive, and why training, boundaries, and clinical guidance matter so a peer team builds trust instead of breaking it. Subscribe, share this with someone on shift, and leave a review so more first responders can find practical resilience training that works.
Stephanie can be reached via her website https://firstresponderpsychology.com
Her LinkedIn account is https://www.linkedin.com/in/dr-stephanie-conn/
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Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_01 (00:01):
Welcome to Resilience Development in Action
with Steve B.
Holmes.
This is the podcast dedicated tofirst responder mental health,
helping police, fire, EMS,dispatchers, and paramedics
create better growthenvironments for themselves and
their team.
Let's get started.
SPEAKER_00 (00:29):
Well, hi, and welcome to this new episode of
Resilience Development inAction.
I gotta tell you that I'm veryexcited.
I I will share the story becauseit's funny.
I was doing a presentation atthe Fraternity Order of Police
in Las Vegas and I wasrecommending books.
And the book I was recommendingwas someone called Stephanie
Cohn.
(00:49):
Am I getting that right?
Con.
And this was the book I said, ohyeah, this is a great book.
And then someone in the crowdsays, read the second edition,
it's better.
And lo and behold, Stephanie'sin the crowd.
And not only did I read, look,you can see it's well worn, I
read it.
She also signed it.
And I couldn't wait to have heron the podcast.
(01:11):
For you know, this is somethingthat I'm very it's so well
written, it talks about realstuff, and it's palpable to both
therapists and first respondersin general.
I know it's law enforcementdirected, but I think a
firefighter or a paramedic couldprobably use it in a
correctional staff, definitely.
But I want to introduceStephanie Khan to finding your
(01:31):
way through therapy.
Very good.
And I said the wrong word word.
That's my old podcast.
I can't keep from saying I was Iwas stunned.
SPEAKER_02 (01:40):
I was like, what?
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (01:42):
So you so you guys get to see all the mistakes I
make.
It's okay.
Okay.
I like to be authentic, but youknow, it's it's one of those
things that when I was readingthis book, I was like, this is
all palpable.
And then the second one makes iteven easier to read.
And there's so much moreinformation in the second
edition.
So she didn't ask me to plugthis.
I'm doing this on my own.
(02:03):
Absolutely read.
There's there's more tables inthe second one.
So if you want to jump just tothe tables, you'll get a lot of
information from that too.
You know, the cognitivedistortions, as I would call it,
or the thought process errors,as Stephanie calls it, but
there's a lot of great stuff inhere.
But you know, I can go on and onabout what I loved about this
book.
But maybe it's time for myaudience to know who you are.
(02:24):
So, Stephanie, how about youintroduce yourself to my
audience?
SPEAKER_02 (02:28):
Very well.
I grew up a cop's daughter in asmall town in North Texas.
And so that was an interestingway to kind of grow up is being
a cop's daughter in a smalltown.
And then I became a dispatcherand I met a really cute officer
while I was a dispatcher, and hewas an officer, but I know not
to shit where I eat.
(02:49):
And so, or at least I learnedthat one.
And so I we waited until I movedinto another department as an
officer, and then he and Istarted dating.
And 27 years later, here we are.
And so he was 18 years in lawenforcement.
I was nine as an officer, did mythree-year stint as a
dispatcher, and then for goodmeasure, I did another three
(03:09):
years doing victim service workafter being a police officer,
which is kind of an interestingpath.
And the reason that is, is thatwhen I was an officer, one of my
coworkers was killed in the lineof duty, and I was a peer
support team member.
And I was actually talking aboutthat to someone yesterday
because I was doing crisismanagement briefing for his
(03:30):
death, for my coworker's death.
And I was just talking aboutyesterday that I'm doing one
tomorrow morning for anotherdepartment, not for a death, but
for a different incident.
But when I was looking out tosee who I might refer my peers
to that were struggling for anynumber of reasons, you know,
relating to the death orrelationship stuff or what have
you, there just wasn't anyone atthat time that was specializing
(03:51):
in working with firstresponders.
And so I thought, okay, I'vealways loved psychology.
I'm a peer team member.
I love it.
I do a lot of the training onthe wellness stuff in this
domain.
And so perhaps I'll just stepout or I'll start taking some
counseling courses and I'll be acop and do counseling courses,
and then I'll probably reach apoint where I got to step out to
do the counseling stuff, butthen I'll come right back in.
(04:12):
And when I stepped out ofpolicing to become to go to
counseling courses, I was ableto do some on-called victim
service work to kind of keepmyself in the yuck and out there
and going into the kind of theworst calls and situations and
and finished my PhD and openedup my practice and it was all
she wrote.
Like so many people were like,oh, wait, you've done my job, or
(04:35):
you're married to someone that'sin my job, or your dad's done my
job, or all the above.
And, you know, so I have justhad my practice ever since.
And that's first responderpsychology.
And now, you know, as far aslike who I am, is I still
therapise three days a week.
So it's important to me to stillsit behind closed doors and hear
people's stories and whatthey're going through with
(04:56):
policing nowadays, or as afirefighter, dispatcher EMS
corrections, all the things.
And so it's important to me tostill hear that these days, but
then another two or three days aweek, I'm in an agency doing
something like tomorrow.
I'm doing the crisis managementbriefing for an officer that was
shot on Sunday.
And so I am in the agencysetting.
I won't be on a fire rig nextFriday after two hours of peer
(05:19):
training.
I jump on the rig and I'm on therig for another four to six
hours and doing that kind ofstuff.
And so I'll be, you know, so Iuh even the day before that, I'm
working in in human trafficking,the unit, and that kind of
business.
And so I just kind of now get tohave arguably the best job that
there is because I'm behindclosed doors, one-on-one with
people, being trusted for peopleto talk about their stuff.
(05:41):
And I'm out there doing thestuff and seeing what it's like
out there and talking withpeople and doing the training
and going to the calls still andthat kind of business.
And so my husband's medicallyretired and my dad retired after
almost 40 years in policing.
He's no longer with me, but isstill with me, if you know what
I mean.
So I don't know if you haveanything you want to ask me
(06:04):
about any of that, but I wroteabout 12 questions already.
SPEAKER_00 (06:07):
So okay.
Because you know, the firstthing that you talked over
talked over, talked about is youknow, you talk about what you've
done as a police officer.
The one that you mentioned, youyou mentioned also human
trafficking.
But to me, one of the hardestthings that I hear from police
officers myself is once once youhave investigating about with
victims, particularly humantrafficking or sexual
(06:29):
exploitation, especially ofchildren.
And that's rough.
I mean, that's what I hear likenot like it's you're not even
there, but you feel for thosekids and for those victims who
are, you know, I know we're allthe way up in Massachusetts, but
it's not like human traffickingdoesn't occur in Massachusetts,
even though we're not near theborder.
How do you deal with that?
I think my first question wouldbe like, you've done the hard
(06:52):
parts, but you like you'd sayyou're like three, three, where
do you find time to take care ofStephanie?
Because I think that that's whatI always tell my guys is that
you gotta find times to like,you know, go do underwater
basket weaving or some shit,just to keep your mind off all
that.
SPEAKER_02 (07:06):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, and that's the thing isbeing self-employed, I can work
for a shitty boss or a greatone, right?
Just kind of depending on how Iwant to show up.
And so I tend to find thathaving a late start to the day
is better for me because it getsme, as I mentioned to you before
we even started the recording,is I can steal some time for
(07:26):
myself to do what I want to doin my creative processes, or I
can do dog walking, or I have auh gym here in my office or in
my home rather, and I do yogaand dog walks and hikes and all
the things and do I have themost strict sleep routine out
there.
And so to the degree that I can,I practice what I preach.
(07:49):
And I don't tell people, hey,you know, eat better, sleep
better, do this and that and theother, and then I just go do
whatever I feel like doing,right?
I I try to embody those thatwisdom, if you will.
SPEAKER_00 (08:02):
I remember first mentioning yoga and mindfulness
to one of the officers.
This is years ago when I firstmentioned that.
What do you think I got as aresponse when I said that?
SPEAKER_02 (08:12):
Oh, a a laugh or something sarcastic.
SPEAKER_00 (08:16):
Yeah, sure.
I can't wait to get there withyou, right?
So, you know, one of the things,you know, we're we're gonna get
I I can't wait to talk moreabout the book, but since we're
talking about this, I want toreally concentrate on how do we
make it palpable?
Because me telling I told myguys yoga and Pilates and doing
that type of you don't need tobe intense, you know, because of
(08:37):
course the guy who decided to doit, he's like, I found hot yoga
for advanced people.
Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, chillthe fuck down.
You're not there yet.
Yeah, but it's hard for them tomake it palpable to them to do
that stuff, but it's sobeneficial.
I feel that the youngergeneration is a little more open
to it, but like, you know, thethe older veterans, for lack of
a better word, i.e., the saltysalty sailors, how do we get
(09:00):
them to start thinking aboutthat?
SPEAKER_02 (09:02):
Well, I think we have to talk about it in such a
way that we recognize that it isa it's performance enhancing,
right?
If you are aware and you'restrengthening your core and your
balance and your awareness ofyour body and space, that I
can't think of a job in firstresponder work that those things
are not beneficial.
(09:22):
And so if we talk about it froma performance perspective, but
also recognize it from itsmental training perspective,
right?
And it which is also part ofperformance.
Oddly, the side effect, if youwant to call it that, is
well-being, right?
And or we can say I'm doing thisuh for my well-being, and the
(09:43):
side effect is my performancehas improved, right?
I, you know, just it so it kindof depends on what the person's
angle is.
And I think also the beauty ofit is I'm I'm a nerd, but I like
to think of myself as kind of astreet nerd, if you will, is I
can do street or I can I cantalk neuroscience, and depending
on what you need me to do, andso, or what I need to do.
(10:05):
And so I can tell people aboutthe science behind, you know,
hey, look, this isn't justsomething that's woo-woo.
And I also like to give peoplethe technology, some of the
biofeedback devices, orencourage them to get it for
themselves, detern what iswoo-woo, this yoga, meditation,
breathing, whatever you want toput woo-woo category, and let
(10:27):
you see the biological changesthat occur because you did it
that you may or may not perceivethat are still there through
biofeedback that says, oh, look,your heart rate variability went
up.
Oh, look, your heart rate wentdown.
Oh, look, right, you, your theerratic pattern of your heart is
smoothing out, your brainpatterns are smoothing out,
(10:48):
right?
So I like people to to takesomething and even maybe poke
fun of it myself and say, hey,this woo-woo shit.
I don't want it to be whoa,because you're like, oh, I'm not
snapping at people anymore.
I am aware of my body and space.
And when I need to really beaware of my body and space and
(11:09):
proximity to others, and youknow, so I'm not standing too
close to somebody or you know,that kind of stuff, or too far
from someone that I want tostand close to, right?
SPEAKER_00 (11:19):
So no, and I think that it's you know, you talk
about performance enhancement orimprovement, you know, tac
tactical improvement.
And I I've also told people likedoing this stuff will make you a
better family person, also.
And sometimes that makes itpalpable.
You talked about woo-woo stuff,you know.
I almost retired about I want tosay about 12 years ago because I
(11:41):
got one of my police officers toget on the table and do some
Reiki with me.
And whether you believe in Reikior not, it really doesn't matter
to me because I know it works,but doesn't mean you know it
works.
And when they saw what it didfor them, they're like, whoa.
And I tell people like some ofthe woo-woo shit might actually
work.
And I think that that's why,like, I tell people, like, if
(12:01):
you try something three times,it didn't work, then I'll give
you you tried it three times, itdidn't work, move on.
That's fine.
But I think that that's wherelike my sometimes I also talk
about how to present it is liketry it three times.
You didn't go to the range thefirst time, miss your miss your
shot, and then go, that's it,I'm quitting.
No, you have to do it a fewtimes, and you got better with
time.
Same thing with like theself-improvement and self-care
(12:24):
or tactical improvement, as uhsomeone once told me to do.
SPEAKER_02 (12:28):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, and I remember when Iworked in the gang unit, I was a
detective, and I got called outfor a shooting, as was you know
usually the case, and I had tosneak out of yoga as quietly and
as discreetly as possible.
But I'm kind of whispering asI'm answering the phone on my
sergeant.
He goes, Why are you whispering?
I'm walking out of yoga.
(12:50):
And he goes, Why are you atyoga?
I don't want to be a psychopathlike you.
Let's just start there, right?
You have you smoke cigarettes, Igo to yoga.
Let's see who's more flexibleand who's got, you know, who's
who's stronger and has bettercore strength and isn't having
back pain and so on and soforth.
SPEAKER_00 (13:08):
Yeah, exactly.
No, I think that that's wherelike finding these things that
work.
I think that's how I always talkabout it, you know.
The other part that there's toomany things that you mentioned,
you know, I I think when youtalk about family involvement,
that was another part too, isyou know, being married to the
job and being born from the job,essentially, too.
I think that sometimes familygets forgotten in this equation
(13:31):
because it does impact them too.
Do you talk to some of yourpeople about that?
Because I think that for me,it's like, yeah, you know, one
of the things that therapistssay, like, oh, they got to
reduce their hypervigilance.
They reduce theirhypervigilance, they make they
make for worse cops, if you askme.
But they need to be able toreduce it at home and be a human
being.
And sometimes that impacts thefamily.
(13:52):
Do you talk about that stuffwith your your crew?
Because that's so important.
I think sometimes likeseparating our role from our
life is sometimes so difficult,including myself as a therapist.
My kids say all the time, stoptherapizing me.
So I know how it is, but in adifferent way.
SPEAKER_02 (14:07):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I think one of thepresentations that they had at
FOP was, and I I'm gonna butcherthe title of it, but the gist of
it was she's she says, is this asymptom or is this an
occupational adaptation?
And you know, so we can callhypervigilance a symptom, or we
can call it an occupational uhadaptation.
(14:27):
And so it all depends on howappropriate it is.
And I tell people, look, I wasborn hyper-vigilant, right?
Like my dad's blood and my mom'shistory through and through.
Like I was born hyper-vigilant.
And if I wasn't already, then Ithink my dad taking me on
ride-alongs, on officialride-alongs when I was a kid
(14:49):
when he was on the drug taskforce made me hyper-vigilant.
So I'm not asking you to give upvigilance, I'm asking you to
dial the hyper down.
So if we're going to talk aboutthat particular one, but coming
back more pointedly to yourquestion about family, that is
part of everything that I lookinto and talk about.
And that's why, and I'm, youknow, the in my book, both
(15:13):
versions of it, every chapterhas a section for family
members.
But I tell people, I warnpeople, don't just read the
section for yourself, skip theone for the family member, skip
the one for the civilian, skipthe one for uh the
administrator.
You need to read all of thembecause you need to each kind of
understand what each person's,yeah, what each person's
(15:33):
perspective is and each person'schallenge is, and so that we
have a better, more well-roundedview and understanding of it
all.
And so it's in mind, but I'm abig proponent of the books I
Love a Cop and I Love aFirefighter by Dr.
Ellen Kirschman.
I think it's those areincredible resources.
And there's there's severalothers as as well.
(15:54):
Cindy Doyle's Hold the Line,Code for Counsel, Counseling,
all these kinds of things.
And so Code for Couples, excuseme.
So I'm a big proponent of thoseresources and those individuals.
And even just my own master'sthesis was what helps and
hinders cops to deal with theirexposure to secondary trauma,
meaning the trauma exposure fromother people.
(16:15):
And the number one protectivefactor was family members, when
family members were informed andsupportive and intact and all
the things.
And they were the number onerisk factor when they were
strained or tense or estrangedor an understanding of the
profession and not wanting themto do certain things or be
certain ways or that kind ofstuff.
(16:36):
And so they're either yournumber one risk or protective
factor, depending on how wellfamily members are supported to
be healthy in the job that theirperson is doing and to help the
person as well.
So it's it's both.
SPEAKER_00 (17:08):
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Fit.
Deemed Fit is a firstresponder-owned activewear and a
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They do a lot of initiatives andcollections that are based on
(17:30):
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(17:57):
Now, right back to the episode.
I think that I I agree with you.
And the secondary trauma thingis one of the things that I say
that first responders andtherapists have in common,
because we are exposed to sometrauma from what people say and
do like in their job.
And that's part of what I say.
Like, this is what I do toprotect myself from this
(18:19):
secondary trauma.
And sometimes it is, you know,like there's days where I tell
people, like, if you call mepast my, I don't know, five
o'clock, if I'm done at five, Imight go, I don't want to talk
to you, but it's not personal.
And it's not because of anythingelse, but I need to like do
something to process for myself.
I think that that's the otherpart too, is when we talk about
(18:39):
secondary trauma, I'm like, howare you processing that stuff?
Because if you're just jumpingout from the job and going home
and your kids are like, me, me,me, I need this, I need that, or
your spouse is upset becausethey spent the whole day with
the kids or what have you, oreven if they're just having a
bad day.
I mean, to me, the secondarytrauma is like something that
needs to be addressed regularlybecause sometimes it's not about
the worst call in your life,it's about 14 different calls
(19:02):
that are just sometimesannoying, sometimes difficult.
SPEAKER_02 (19:06):
Yeah, yeah.
And that's what Ellen Hirschmantalks about in her in I Love a
Cop when she talks about deaf bythousand cuts.
So it isn't one particular callas much as it is just this kind
of ongoing.
And then that's where we come upwith the saying we we bleed on
people that didn't cut us, andthe family members, and the
friends, and the neighbors, andthe people in traffic, and all
(19:28):
that kind of next citizenencounter, patient encounter,
what have you, they didn't cutyou, but they get bled on by you
as a first responder becauselike you just keep getting cut
by both the operational hasslesas well as the organizational
ones.
SPEAKER_00 (19:46):
Now, I'll finish on this because I agree with you
100%.
I really recommend people readthat book too.
Uh Sisyphus is another thingthat comes to mind about pushing
the rock up the hill, up thehill, up the hill until you're
done and it rolls back down.
You got and sometimes thatrepetitive thing that police
officers go out through or firstresponders in general and
correction, I mean, it's soimportant to think about.
(20:09):
So yeah, I think that maybe it'sa good way to segue to something
that's always what's calledresilience development in
action, even though I get thename wrong sometimes.
Resilience.
I think that one of the thingsthat happens is that we think
about resilience in a certainway.
You're tough, you can handlethis and stuff like that.
But I think that sometimesthat's one mistake that people
make.
Do you think what's the maybethe biggest mistake first
(20:30):
responders make aboutresilience?
How to define it or what haveyou?
SPEAKER_02 (20:37):
I don't think they pay enough attention to it, is
actually more of an issue.
I think they may get into whatis referred to as the GI Joe
fallacy.
And this is gonna date mebecause I'm back to the 1900s, I
was born in the 1900s, and therewas a commercial that came on in
between cartoons and you know,like GI Joe or whatever, and
they'd say, Hey, little kids,don't get in panel vans with
(21:00):
guys named Chester, and now youknow, and knowing is half the
battle, right?
And they uh researchers have gotresilience researchers have gone
by and said, Well, that's reallynot how it works because we know
a lot of things.
We we know we need to eat welland sleep and not drink too much
and not kick the dog and havehealthy outlets and blah, blah,
blah.
(21:20):
It's it's the application of itthat is where it's falling apart
or the consistent application ofit.
And so some people know whatresilience is.
I've got to do certain things tomake myself more resilient to be
able to work through somethingI'm dealing with.
And then sometimes they don'tunderstand how, you know,
(21:41):
certain kind of strategies thatcould enhance that.
But even if they did, I think itstill falls apart because we're
we're, you know, in history, wehave more information available
to us than we ever did.
And that statement will continuenext week, next month, so and so
as you know, the the knowledgebase learn expands.
But until we figure out how weone become aware of are we
(22:06):
resilient and what are what'spromoting that and what's taking
away from that.
And so if we do not have somekind of regular awareness
practice, just like we wouldhave a regular awareness of
scene safety, if we are notaware of what is going to harm
(22:28):
us on a call when we show up, orwhat is what we might need, it
uh we can't make the choices toconsistently be safe on the
scene or to be consistentlyresilient in life.
And oftentimes we get pulledaway from the demand that's
(22:49):
right in front of us, whateveris needed, and we will not pay
attention to those kind offoundational pieces of
resilience because they're notcommanding our attention.
And we're not aware until we endup finding ourselves in a bad
way for health-wise,relationship-wise, work-wise,
whatever it looks like.
SPEAKER_00 (23:10):
I was trying to find the page and I can't find it,
but I know I was reading abouthow you know we do first
assessment, secondaryassessment, first assessment at
secondary based on all thatsafety stuff.
What's going on?
What's my next move?
And police officers particularlyhave to run through this very
quickly.
I would argue firefighterparamedics, dispatch, and
corrections also have all haveto do that.
(23:32):
But then that cycle, because youdo it so often, there's a
tiredness.
You know, there's that you getexhausted from doing it.
So if you don't have thosetools, you're kind of not able
to do it properly.
And that's where sometimesjudgment gets off.
I know you don't mention that inyour book.
That's just my two cents aboutwhat I think happens if you
don't do that.
You know, being resilient andpaying attention to what is your
(23:54):
what are you going to do to takecare of yourself on a regular
basis?
SPEAKER_02 (23:57):
Yeah.
And I think the more if we kindof take from some of the
habit-building geniuses outthere, you know, that talk about
habit stacking, you know, JamesClear's work on building better
habits and such, and we don'tfigure out how we say, hey, as a
regular process, just like whatwe do in, you know, first
responder work.
Hey, after a call, we're gonnahot wash that, as what they call
(24:20):
it in firefighting.
We're gonna hot wash that andwe're gonna, you know, see what
we did and blah, blah, blah.
We don't do that with ourselvesand say, hey, at the beginning
of the day or at the end of theshift, or at the end of my day,
well, maybe not the end of theday.
That's not the time to begetting into big stuff, big
thought processes when we'retrying to sleep.
But maybe at the end of theshift or at the beginning of the
day, we don't routinely kind ofstack and have a habit of this
(24:44):
is a moment of reflection.
It doesn't have to be going offand sitting for 30 minutes under
a tree and reflecting on themeaning of life.
But maybe you take a one-minute,two-minute kind of reflection.
How did I show up today?
What do I want to show uptomorrow?
What is there anything I learnedfrom my experiences today?
(25:05):
But then even in micro momentswhere just kind of being aware,
gritting my teeth.
I wonder why my head hurts.
I'm holding tension in my fists,you know, these kinds of things.
I've got a permanentindentations because I am
constantly burrowing my brow,right?
(25:25):
So, and that isn't about theaesthetic of it, you know, the
our appearance, but it's aboutus holding tension and just not
even being aware we're holdingtension in our body.
So, which has chemicalconsequences and thought process
consequences and all that stuff.
SPEAKER_00 (25:42):
So I think there's I also want to mention that
compassion fatigue when you'renot paying attention to this
increases dramatically, almostexponentially, when you're not
paying attention to these littlethings that you talked about.
So I think that's another thingto talk about.
I also want to mention a littlebit about peer support because I
think that's so important thatmost departments need a.
(26:03):
I think that the many of themaround here in Massachusetts
have peer support, if not all atthis point.
But I think peer support is soimportant.
I think that fire has alwaysdone it informally around, you
know, the table at the firestation after a call.
It's not, it's always been alittle more except with police.
I I don't know Texas, but manytowns around here, you you know,
you go to a call, you're alone.
(26:24):
Maybe the sergeant backs you upif it's big and lieutenant or
you get some backup.
But ultimately, once you leavethe place, you're alone.
You know, you don't have apartner in the vehicle with you.
That can you talk more aboutpeer support and how important
it is for most departments tohave them?
SPEAKER_02 (26:39):
Yeah, and I've I have heard what you've just said
several times from people on theEast Coast where they say, you
know, fire has got it kind ofsquared away more so than
police.
And the opposite is true, notacross the board, but generally
speaking, the opposite is trueon the West Coast.
And uh who knows it's a mixedbag down the middle of the
country, I suppose.
But yeah, I have yeah, I have Ijust want to know what Texas is
(27:02):
now.
Yeah, well, yeah, they haveyeah, they've got the law
enforcement peer supportnetwork.
So yeah, I mean, I think thething is is that peer support is
incredibly important.
But if you look at the historyof peer support in the first
responder profession inparticular, it has been really
more has a history more out ofcritical incident stress
(27:23):
management.
When something bad happened, weall come together, we talk about
the bad thing that happened, weask, you know, get people with
resources, we fill in holes inthe story, we do these things.
And that's great.
That's what's oftentimes neededin the immediate aftermath of a
critical incident.
But there has been thisevolution and understanding and
the peer support really, peersupport really has come more out
(27:45):
of the addictions area and hascome out of educational spaces
and other kinds of places wherewe're like, hey, wait, we we
don't need to have some big T,as they call it the big trauma.
Um we need people, peers, tocome alongside their peers and
talk with them through thesmaller traumas, the small teas,
(28:08):
the the day-to-day wear andtear, the relationship, you
know, the burnout, those typesof things.
And then, and so I make adistinction between reactive,
which is critical incidentstress management, and uh by
design, it's critical incident,and then responsive, which is
oh, I noticed, you know, Bob'snot acting the same, Jane's not
acting the same.
(28:28):
Like I'm gonna go check in on anM or make some contacts.
And so that's responsive tosomething you've noticed, and
progressive, which is do we haveto show a change in our
behavior?
Do we have to show a change inour showing up for work or those
types of things?
Or can we be progressive andsay, can we all kind of become
(28:51):
resilience ninjas as peer teammembers and help our peers
become resilience ninjas bygiving them tools and making it
okay culturally for people tosay, hey, this call bothered me,
or this parent that's getting,you know, older and sicker and
you know, more feeble, you know,that I that's really starting to
(29:11):
kind of wear on my soul a bitlike, you know, can we actually
have those conversations moreproactively where we're
preparing people for those typesof things, whether it be through
training or programs or evenself-assessments that they can
do, or they're just like, hey,no one's gonna get this data,
just just assess for yourself.
(29:32):
How do you feel like you'recaring for yourself with the
compassion fatigue, with theburnout, with the relationship
strain, those kinds of things?
So I think that's really wherewe need to be taking peer
support.
And that's where I'm trying totake peer support when I'm
engaged with agencies doingthis.
And if you want to talk aboutSissippus feeling like you're
pushing the rock up, there aresome that are standing alongside
(29:55):
me pushing that rock up.
And then there are others thatare saying, oh gosh, no, because
I'm trying to do peer supportoff the corner of my desk.
I already have 10 milliondemands, uh, there's no budget
for that.
And oh, you know, and I'm notsaying that there, there's not
truth to that, but it it doesmake it harder to push that rock
(30:18):
up at times.
SPEAKER_00 (30:20):
I think there's so many things that you said.
I would argue that, you know,what I tell my guy is, and I'll
save the whole story because Iwant to respect the privacy.
When uh someone called me afterthree major incidents in one
day, one involving a familymember, and he called me the day
after, and we started workingtogether right away.
(30:40):
And while, you know, the familymember particular story still
gets to him a little bit, whichis normal if you ask me, because
that would happen to anyone inthe community in the civilian
world, he was able to handle it.
And how I what I explained to alot of people is that's how you
keep it to be acute stressdisorder, not post-traumatic
stress.
And being able to do the workright away is so key.
(31:00):
And the fact that he had the, Idon't know, the guts to call me,
whatever you want to call it.
And, you know, he knew how inJudge M.
He he heard of me from XYZ.
That really helped.
I guess the the the next thing Iwant to mention before but like
I I the thing that you talkedabout peer support in Sisyphus.
Where do you think peer supportis right now and where do you
(31:21):
want to bring it?
SPEAKER_02 (31:24):
And where it is depends on where you're at,
right?
Honestly, because um places arereally dialed in.
And they like I saw an emailearlier today from one of my
peer leads who's was talkingabout the topic for for next
week's training and was tellingme what that they were doing as
(31:44):
peer teams, that they were doingwellness rounds with with all
their shifts.
So they are progressive, theyare they're not just reactive,
they're progressive.
And then they're having me comein on a regular basis and having
me on a rig, havingconversations, and that's not
peer support, but it is a peersupport-driven initiative
because they see this as part ofan entire picture.
(32:07):
And so I think in some placesthey're great.
And then I think in other placesthere is um the old regime stand
strong.
We don't need anyone, we'regood.
You know, you know, peersupport.
You know, I think sometimes thethe peer teams themselves, and
I've I have to be careful how Isay this.
I I have said the only thingworse than no peer team is a bad
(32:31):
peer team.
And by bad peer team, I mean onethat is not properly supported
with training and guidance onhaving healthy boundaries and
having an offset of compassionfatigue by leaning into
compassion satisfaction, andthey don't have a clinical
advisor that's able to continuetheir education with them on
(32:55):
burnout or moral injury orwhatever the case might be.
So I think you get a bad peerteam when they're not properly
chosen, they're not properlyscreened, they're not properly
trained, and they're notmaintaining that training, and
then they're not removing themor pausing them when it's time
(33:16):
to pause or to be removed.
Because no one gets put, and I'mjust saying this bluntly, no one
gets put on the SWAT teambecause they raise their hand
first and said, Me, me, me, Iwant to be on SWAT team.
I like they look like ninjas.
I want to be a ninja, I'm gonnado that.
I don't really need to train.
Yep, I've done some stuff, I'veyou know, goofed some things,
(33:38):
but I already said I was on it,so I'm on it.
You can't get rid of me, right?
So the SWAT team would kicksomeone off if they were not
showing up to training or theywere not demonstrating a
commitment to the mission andthe safety of it and you know,
all the things, right?
They would be kicked off in aflash because what the SWAT team
does is incredibly important.
(34:00):
So is what the peer team does.
And for for it is so it isn't itis a different context, but it
can literally be life and deathon a peer that is like, I hope
you have your stuff togetherwhen you show up to me as a peer
team member, because it can makethe difference between that peer
feeling like they'll take areferral and turning things
(34:22):
around if they were marchingtowards something not so good or
not.
SPEAKER_00 (34:27):
Well, you know, we're getting close to that half
hour.
Would you want to stick aroundfor another half hour?
I want to finish off on the peersupport stuff and then really
get to the books because thethe, you know, I really want to
talk more about that.
Is that okay with you?
Yeah, sounds good to me.
Well, for everyone listeningright now, come back for part
two of the of this episode nexton resilience development in
action.
And I thank you for listeningthis week.
SPEAKER_01 (34:49):
Please like, subscribe, and follow this
podcast on your favoriteplatform.
A glowing review is alwayshelpful.
And as a reminder, this podcastis for informational,
educational, and entertainmentpurposes only.
If you're struggling with amental health or substance abuse
issue, please reach out to aprofessional counselor for
consultation.
If you are in a mental healthcrisis, call 988 for assistance.
(35:13):
This number is available in theUnited States and Canada.
Welcome to Resilience Development in Action
with Steve B.
Holmes.
This is the podcast dedicated tofirst responder mental health,
helping police, fire, EMS,dispatchers, and paramedics
create better growthenvironments for themselves and
their team.
Let's get started.
SPEAKER_00 (00:29):
Well, hi, and welcome to this new episode of
Resilience Development inAction.
I gotta tell you that I'm veryexcited.
I I will share the story becauseit's funny.
I was doing a presentation atthe Fraternity Order of Police
in Las Vegas and I wasrecommending books.
And the book I was recommendingwas someone called Stephanie
Cohn.
(00:49):
Am I getting that right?
Con.
And this was the book I said, ohyeah, this is a great book.
And then someone in the crowdsays, read the second edition,
it's better.
And lo and behold, Stephanie'sin the crowd.
And not only did I read, look,you can see it's well worn, I
read it.
She also signed it.
And I couldn't wait to have heron the podcast.
(01:11):
For you know, this is somethingthat I'm very it's so well
written, it talks about realstuff, and it's palpable to both
therapists and first respondersin general.
I know it's law enforcementdirected, but I think a
firefighter or a paramedic couldprobably use it in a
correctional staff, definitely.
But I want to introduceStephanie Khan to finding your
(01:31):
way through therapy.
Very good.
And I said the wrong word word.
That's my old podcast.
I can't keep from saying I was Iwas stunned.
SPEAKER_02 (01:40):
I was like, what?
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (01:42):
So you so you guys get to see all the mistakes I
make.
It's okay.
Okay.
I like to be authentic, but youknow, it's it's one of those
things that when I was readingthis book, I was like, this is
all palpable.
And then the second one makes iteven easier to read.
And there's so much moreinformation in the second
edition.
So she didn't ask me to plugthis.
I'm doing this on my own.
(02:03):
Absolutely read.
There's there's more tables inthe second one.
So if you want to jump just tothe tables, you'll get a lot of
information from that too.
You know, the cognitivedistortions, as I would call it,
or the thought process errors,as Stephanie calls it, but
there's a lot of great stuff inhere.
But you know, I can go on and onabout what I loved about this
book.
But maybe it's time for myaudience to know who you are.
(02:24):
So, Stephanie, how about youintroduce yourself to my
audience?
SPEAKER_02 (02:28):
Very well.
I grew up a cop's daughter in asmall town in North Texas.
And so that was an interestingway to kind of grow up is being
a cop's daughter in a smalltown.
And then I became a dispatcherand I met a really cute officer
while I was a dispatcher, and hewas an officer, but I know not
to shit where I eat.
(02:49):
And so, or at least I learnedthat one.
And so I we waited until I movedinto another department as an
officer, and then he and Istarted dating.
And 27 years later, here we are.
And so he was 18 years in lawenforcement.
I was nine as an officer, did mythree-year stint as a
dispatcher, and then for goodmeasure, I did another three
(03:09):
years doing victim service workafter being a police officer,
which is kind of an interestingpath.
And the reason that is, is thatwhen I was an officer, one of my
coworkers was killed in the lineof duty, and I was a peer
support team member.
And I was actually talking aboutthat to someone yesterday
because I was doing crisismanagement briefing for his
(03:30):
death, for my coworker's death.
And I was just talking aboutyesterday that I'm doing one
tomorrow morning for anotherdepartment, not for a death, but
for a different incident.
But when I was looking out tosee who I might refer my peers
to that were struggling for anynumber of reasons, you know,
relating to the death orrelationship stuff or what have
you, there just wasn't anyone atthat time that was specializing
(03:51):
in working with firstresponders.
And so I thought, okay, I'vealways loved psychology.
I'm a peer team member.
I love it.
I do a lot of the training onthe wellness stuff in this
domain.
And so perhaps I'll just stepout or I'll start taking some
counseling courses and I'll be acop and do counseling courses,
and then I'll probably reach apoint where I got to step out to
do the counseling stuff, butthen I'll come right back in.
(04:12):
And when I stepped out ofpolicing to become to go to
counseling courses, I was ableto do some on-called victim
service work to kind of keepmyself in the yuck and out there
and going into the kind of theworst calls and situations and
and finished my PhD and openedup my practice and it was all
she wrote.
Like so many people were like,oh, wait, you've done my job, or
(04:35):
you're married to someone that'sin my job, or your dad's done my
job, or all the above.
And, you know, so I have justhad my practice ever since.
And that's first responderpsychology.
And now, you know, as far aslike who I am, is I still
therapise three days a week.
So it's important to me to stillsit behind closed doors and hear
people's stories and whatthey're going through with
(04:56):
policing nowadays, or as afirefighter, dispatcher EMS
corrections, all the things.
And so it's important to me tostill hear that these days, but
then another two or three days aweek, I'm in an agency doing
something like tomorrow.
I'm doing the crisis managementbriefing for an officer that was
shot on Sunday.
And so I am in the agencysetting.
I won't be on a fire rig nextFriday after two hours of peer
(05:19):
training.
I jump on the rig and I'm on therig for another four to six
hours and doing that kind ofstuff.
And so I'll be, you know, so Iuh even the day before that, I'm
working in in human trafficking,the unit, and that kind of
business.
And so I just kind of now get tohave arguably the best job that
there is because I'm behindclosed doors, one-on-one with
people, being trusted for peopleto talk about their stuff.
(05:41):
And I'm out there doing thestuff and seeing what it's like
out there and talking withpeople and doing the training
and going to the calls still andthat kind of business.
And so my husband's medicallyretired and my dad retired after
almost 40 years in policing.
He's no longer with me, but isstill with me, if you know what
I mean.
So I don't know if you haveanything you want to ask me
(06:04):
about any of that, but I wroteabout 12 questions already.
SPEAKER_00 (06:07):
So okay.
Because you know, the firstthing that you talked over
talked over, talked about is youknow, you talk about what you've
done as a police officer.
The one that you mentioned, youyou mentioned also human
trafficking.
But to me, one of the hardestthings that I hear from police
officers myself is once once youhave investigating about with
victims, particularly humantrafficking or sexual
(06:29):
exploitation, especially ofchildren.
And that's rough.
I mean, that's what I hear likenot like it's you're not even
there, but you feel for thosekids and for those victims who
are, you know, I know we're allthe way up in Massachusetts, but
it's not like human traffickingdoesn't occur in Massachusetts,
even though we're not near theborder.
How do you deal with that?
I think my first question wouldbe like, you've done the hard
(06:52):
parts, but you like you'd sayyou're like three, three, where
do you find time to take care ofStephanie?
Because I think that that's whatI always tell my guys is that
you gotta find times to like,you know, go do underwater
basket weaving or some shit,just to keep your mind off all
that.
SPEAKER_02 (07:06):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, and that's the thing isbeing self-employed, I can work
for a shitty boss or a greatone, right?
Just kind of depending on how Iwant to show up.
And so I tend to find thathaving a late start to the day
is better for me because it getsme, as I mentioned to you before
we even started the recording,is I can steal some time for
(07:26):
myself to do what I want to doin my creative processes, or I
can do dog walking, or I have auh gym here in my office or in
my home rather, and I do yogaand dog walks and hikes and all
the things and do I have themost strict sleep routine out
there.
And so to the degree that I can,I practice what I preach.
(07:49):
And I don't tell people, hey,you know, eat better, sleep
better, do this and that and theother, and then I just go do
whatever I feel like doing,right?
I I try to embody those thatwisdom, if you will.
SPEAKER_00 (08:02):
I remember first mentioning yoga and mindfulness
to one of the officers.
This is years ago when I firstmentioned that.
What do you think I got as aresponse when I said that?
SPEAKER_02 (08:12):
Oh, a a laugh or something sarcastic.
SPEAKER_00 (08:16):
Yeah, sure.
I can't wait to get there withyou, right?
So, you know, one of the things,you know, we're we're gonna get
I I can't wait to talk moreabout the book, but since we're
talking about this, I want toreally concentrate on how do we
make it palpable?
Because me telling I told myguys yoga and Pilates and doing
that type of you don't need tobe intense, you know, because of
(08:37):
course the guy who decided to doit, he's like, I found hot yoga
for advanced people.
Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, chillthe fuck down.
You're not there yet.
Yeah, but it's hard for them tomake it palpable to them to do
that stuff, but it's sobeneficial.
I feel that the youngergeneration is a little more open
to it, but like, you know, thethe older veterans, for lack of
a better word, i.e., the saltysalty sailors, how do we get
(09:00):
them to start thinking aboutthat?
SPEAKER_02 (09:02):
Well, I think we have to talk about it in such a
way that we recognize that it isa it's performance enhancing,
right?
If you are aware and you'restrengthening your core and your
balance and your awareness ofyour body and space, that I
can't think of a job in firstresponder work that those things
are not beneficial.
(09:22):
And so if we talk about it froma performance perspective, but
also recognize it from itsmental training perspective,
right?
And it which is also part ofperformance.
Oddly, the side effect, if youwant to call it that, is
well-being, right?
And or we can say I'm doing thisuh for my well-being, and the
(09:43):
side effect is my performancehas improved, right?
I, you know, just it so it kindof depends on what the person's
angle is.
And I think also the beauty ofit is I'm I'm a nerd, but I like
to think of myself as kind of astreet nerd, if you will, is I
can do street or I can I cantalk neuroscience, and depending
on what you need me to do, andso, or what I need to do.
(10:05):
And so I can tell people aboutthe science behind, you know,
hey, look, this isn't justsomething that's woo-woo.
And I also like to give peoplethe technology, some of the
biofeedback devices, orencourage them to get it for
themselves, detern what iswoo-woo, this yoga, meditation,
breathing, whatever you want toput woo-woo category, and let
(10:27):
you see the biological changesthat occur because you did it
that you may or may not perceivethat are still there through
biofeedback that says, oh, look,your heart rate variability went
up.
Oh, look, your heart rate wentdown.
Oh, look, right, you, your theerratic pattern of your heart is
smoothing out, your brainpatterns are smoothing out,
(10:48):
right?
So I like people to to takesomething and even maybe poke
fun of it myself and say, hey,this woo-woo shit.
I don't want it to be whoa,because you're like, oh, I'm not
snapping at people anymore.
I am aware of my body and space.
And when I need to really beaware of my body and space and
(11:09):
proximity to others, and youknow, so I'm not standing too
close to somebody or you know,that kind of stuff, or too far
from someone that I want tostand close to, right?
SPEAKER_00 (11:19):
So no, and I think that it's you know, you talk
about performance enhancement orimprovement, you know, tac
tactical improvement.
And I I've also told people likedoing this stuff will make you a
better family person, also.
And sometimes that makes itpalpable.
You talked about woo-woo stuff,you know.
I almost retired about I want tosay about 12 years ago because I
(11:41):
got one of my police officers toget on the table and do some
Reiki with me.
And whether you believe in Reikior not, it really doesn't matter
to me because I know it works,but doesn't mean you know it
works.
And when they saw what it didfor them, they're like, whoa.
And I tell people like some ofthe woo-woo shit might actually
work.
And I think that that's why,like, I tell people, like, if
(12:01):
you try something three times,it didn't work, then I'll give
you you tried it three times, itdidn't work, move on.
That's fine.
But I think that that's wherelike my sometimes I also talk
about how to present it is liketry it three times.
You didn't go to the range thefirst time, miss your miss your
shot, and then go, that's it,I'm quitting.
No, you have to do it a fewtimes, and you got better with
time.
Same thing with like theself-improvement and self-care
(12:24):
or tactical improvement, as uhsomeone once told me to do.
SPEAKER_02 (12:28):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, and I remember when Iworked in the gang unit, I was a
detective, and I got called outfor a shooting, as was you know
usually the case, and I had tosneak out of yoga as quietly and
as discreetly as possible.
But I'm kind of whispering asI'm answering the phone on my
sergeant.
He goes, Why are you whispering?
I'm walking out of yoga.
(12:50):
And he goes, Why are you atyoga?
I don't want to be a psychopathlike you.
Let's just start there, right?
You have you smoke cigarettes, Igo to yoga.
Let's see who's more flexibleand who's got, you know, who's
who's stronger and has bettercore strength and isn't having
back pain and so on and soforth.
SPEAKER_00 (13:08):
Yeah, exactly.
No, I think that that's wherelike finding these things that
work.
I think that's how I always talkabout it, you know.
The other part that there's toomany things that you mentioned,
you know, I I think when youtalk about family involvement,
that was another part too, isyou know, being married to the
job and being born from the job,essentially, too.
I think that sometimes familygets forgotten in this equation
(13:31):
because it does impact them too.
Do you talk to some of yourpeople about that?
Because I think that for me,it's like, yeah, you know, one
of the things that therapistssay, like, oh, they got to
reduce their hypervigilance.
They reduce theirhypervigilance, they make they
make for worse cops, if you askme.
But they need to be able toreduce it at home and be a human
being.
And sometimes that impacts thefamily.
(13:52):
Do you talk about that stuffwith your your crew?
Because that's so important.
I think sometimes likeseparating our role from our
life is sometimes so difficult,including myself as a therapist.
My kids say all the time, stoptherapizing me.
So I know how it is, but in adifferent way.
SPEAKER_02 (14:07):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I think one of thepresentations that they had at
FOP was, and I I'm gonna butcherthe title of it, but the gist of
it was she's she says, is this asymptom or is this an
occupational adaptation?
And you know, so we can callhypervigilance a symptom, or we
can call it an occupational uhadaptation.
(14:27):
And so it all depends on howappropriate it is.
And I tell people, look, I wasborn hyper-vigilant, right?
Like my dad's blood and my mom'shistory through and through.
Like I was born hyper-vigilant.
And if I wasn't already, then Ithink my dad taking me on
ride-alongs, on officialride-alongs when I was a kid
(14:49):
when he was on the drug taskforce made me hyper-vigilant.
So I'm not asking you to give upvigilance, I'm asking you to
dial the hyper down.
So if we're going to talk aboutthat particular one, but coming
back more pointedly to yourquestion about family, that is
part of everything that I lookinto and talk about.
And that's why, and I'm, youknow, the in my book, both
(15:13):
versions of it, every chapterhas a section for family
members.
But I tell people, I warnpeople, don't just read the
section for yourself, skip theone for the family member, skip
the one for the civilian, skipthe one for uh the
administrator.
You need to read all of thembecause you need to each kind of
understand what each person's,yeah, what each person's
(15:33):
perspective is and each person'schallenge is, and so that we
have a better, more well-roundedview and understanding of it
all.
And so it's in mind, but I'm abig proponent of the books I
Love a Cop and I Love aFirefighter by Dr.
Ellen Kirschman.
I think it's those areincredible resources.
And there's there's severalothers as as well.
(15:54):
Cindy Doyle's Hold the Line,Code for Counsel, Counseling,
all these kinds of things.
And so Code for Couples, excuseme.
So I'm a big proponent of thoseresources and those individuals.
And even just my own master'sthesis was what helps and
hinders cops to deal with theirexposure to secondary trauma,
meaning the trauma exposure fromother people.
(16:15):
And the number one protectivefactor was family members, when
family members were informed andsupportive and intact and all
the things.
And they were the number onerisk factor when they were
strained or tense or estrangedor an understanding of the
profession and not wanting themto do certain things or be
certain ways or that kind ofstuff.
(16:36):
And so they're either yournumber one risk or protective
factor, depending on how wellfamily members are supported to
be healthy in the job that theirperson is doing and to help the
person as well.
So it's it's both.
SPEAKER_00 (17:08):
This episode is gonna be supported by Deemed
Fit.
Deemed Fit is a firstresponder-owned activewear and a
leisure brand.
And one thing that I genuinelylike about them is that they
support different causes.
I actually gave a few people Iknow who work with first
responders or nonprofits,they're named to uh Deemed Fit,
and I know they're talking tothem.
They do a lot of initiatives andcollections that are based on
(17:30):
mental health for firstresponders.
And if you go there right nowand you buy anything, including
the mental health support stuff,use the code RDA15.
That's right, R D A 15 to get15% off on any products that you
get.
Again, it's called RDA15.
Go to M-E-D F-I-T.com and enjoy15% off at checkout test.
(17:57):
Now, right back to the episode.
I think that I I agree with you.
And the secondary trauma thingis one of the things that I say
that first responders andtherapists have in common,
because we are exposed to sometrauma from what people say and
do like in their job.
And that's part of what I say.
Like, this is what I do toprotect myself from this
(18:19):
secondary trauma.
And sometimes it is, you know,like there's days where I tell
people, like, if you call mepast my, I don't know, five
o'clock, if I'm done at five, Imight go, I don't want to talk
to you, but it's not personal.
And it's not because of anythingelse, but I need to like do
something to process for myself.
I think that that's the otherpart too, is when we talk about
(18:39):
secondary trauma, I'm like, howare you processing that stuff?
Because if you're just jumpingout from the job and going home
and your kids are like, me, me,me, I need this, I need that, or
your spouse is upset becausethey spent the whole day with
the kids or what have you, oreven if they're just having a
bad day.
I mean, to me, the secondarytrauma is like something that
needs to be addressed regularlybecause sometimes it's not about
the worst call in your life,it's about 14 different calls
(19:02):
that are just sometimesannoying, sometimes difficult.
SPEAKER_02 (19:06):
Yeah, yeah.
And that's what Ellen Hirschmantalks about in her in I Love a
Cop when she talks about deaf bythousand cuts.
So it isn't one particular callas much as it is just this kind
of ongoing.
And then that's where we come upwith the saying we we bleed on
people that didn't cut us, andthe family members, and the
friends, and the neighbors, andthe people in traffic, and all
(19:28):
that kind of next citizenencounter, patient encounter,
what have you, they didn't cutyou, but they get bled on by you
as a first responder becauselike you just keep getting cut
by both the operational hasslesas well as the organizational
ones.
SPEAKER_00 (19:46):
Now, I'll finish on this because I agree with you
100%.
I really recommend people readthat book too.
Uh Sisyphus is another thingthat comes to mind about pushing
the rock up the hill, up thehill, up the hill until you're
done and it rolls back down.
You got and sometimes thatrepetitive thing that police
officers go out through or firstresponders in general and
correction, I mean, it's soimportant to think about.
(20:09):
So yeah, I think that maybe it'sa good way to segue to something
that's always what's calledresilience development in
action, even though I get thename wrong sometimes.
Resilience.
I think that one of the thingsthat happens is that we think
about resilience in a certainway.
You're tough, you can handlethis and stuff like that.
But I think that sometimesthat's one mistake that people
make.
Do you think what's the maybethe biggest mistake first
(20:30):
responders make aboutresilience?
How to define it or what haveyou?
SPEAKER_02 (20:37):
I don't think they pay enough attention to it, is
actually more of an issue.
I think they may get into whatis referred to as the GI Joe
fallacy.
And this is gonna date mebecause I'm back to the 1900s, I
was born in the 1900s, and therewas a commercial that came on in
between cartoons and you know,like GI Joe or whatever, and
they'd say, Hey, little kids,don't get in panel vans with
(21:00):
guys named Chester, and now youknow, and knowing is half the
battle, right?
And they uh researchers have gotresilience researchers have gone
by and said, Well, that's reallynot how it works because we know
a lot of things.
We we know we need to eat welland sleep and not drink too much
and not kick the dog and havehealthy outlets and blah, blah,
blah.
(21:20):
It's it's the application of itthat is where it's falling apart
or the consistent application ofit.
And so some people know whatresilience is.
I've got to do certain things tomake myself more resilient to be
able to work through somethingI'm dealing with.
And then sometimes they don'tunderstand how, you know,
(21:41):
certain kind of strategies thatcould enhance that.
But even if they did, I think itstill falls apart because we're
we're, you know, in history, wehave more information available
to us than we ever did.
And that statement will continuenext week, next month, so and so
as you know, the the knowledgebase learn expands.
But until we figure out how weone become aware of are we
(22:06):
resilient and what are what'spromoting that and what's taking
away from that.
And so if we do not have somekind of regular awareness
practice, just like we wouldhave a regular awareness of
scene safety, if we are notaware of what is going to harm
(22:28):
us on a call when we show up, orwhat is what we might need, it
uh we can't make the choices toconsistently be safe on the
scene or to be consistentlyresilient in life.
And oftentimes we get pulledaway from the demand that's
(22:49):
right in front of us, whateveris needed, and we will not pay
attention to those kind offoundational pieces of
resilience because they're notcommanding our attention.
And we're not aware until we endup finding ourselves in a bad
way for health-wise,relationship-wise, work-wise,
whatever it looks like.
SPEAKER_00 (23:10):
I was trying to find the page and I can't find it,
but I know I was reading abouthow you know we do first
assessment, secondaryassessment, first assessment at
secondary based on all thatsafety stuff.
What's going on?
What's my next move?
And police officers particularlyhave to run through this very
quickly.
I would argue firefighterparamedics, dispatch, and
corrections also have all haveto do that.
(23:32):
But then that cycle, because youdo it so often, there's a
tiredness.
You know, there's that you getexhausted from doing it.
So if you don't have thosetools, you're kind of not able
to do it properly.
And that's where sometimesjudgment gets off.
I know you don't mention that inyour book.
That's just my two cents aboutwhat I think happens if you
don't do that.
You know, being resilient andpaying attention to what is your
(23:54):
what are you going to do to takecare of yourself on a regular
basis?
SPEAKER_02 (23:57):
Yeah.
And I think the more if we kindof take from some of the
habit-building geniuses outthere, you know, that talk about
habit stacking, you know, JamesClear's work on building better
habits and such, and we don'tfigure out how we say, hey, as a
regular process, just like whatwe do in, you know, first
responder work.
Hey, after a call, we're gonnahot wash that, as what they call
(24:20):
it in firefighting.
We're gonna hot wash that andwe're gonna, you know, see what
we did and blah, blah, blah.
We don't do that with ourselvesand say, hey, at the beginning
of the day or at the end of theshift, or at the end of my day,
well, maybe not the end of theday.
That's not the time to begetting into big stuff, big
thought processes when we'retrying to sleep.
But maybe at the end of theshift or at the beginning of the
day, we don't routinely kind ofstack and have a habit of this
(24:44):
is a moment of reflection.
It doesn't have to be going offand sitting for 30 minutes under
a tree and reflecting on themeaning of life.
But maybe you take a one-minute,two-minute kind of reflection.
How did I show up today?
What do I want to show uptomorrow?
What is there anything I learnedfrom my experiences today?
(25:05):
But then even in micro momentswhere just kind of being aware,
gritting my teeth.
I wonder why my head hurts.
I'm holding tension in my fists,you know, these kinds of things.
I've got a permanentindentations because I am
constantly burrowing my brow,right?
(25:25):
So, and that isn't about theaesthetic of it, you know, the
our appearance, but it's aboutus holding tension and just not
even being aware we're holdingtension in our body.
So, which has chemicalconsequences and thought process
consequences and all that stuff.
SPEAKER_00 (25:42):
So I think there's I also want to mention that
compassion fatigue when you'renot paying attention to this
increases dramatically, almostexponentially, when you're not
paying attention to these littlethings that you talked about.
So I think that's another thingto talk about.
I also want to mention a littlebit about peer support because I
think that's so important thatmost departments need a.
(26:03):
I think that the many of themaround here in Massachusetts
have peer support, if not all atthis point.
But I think peer support is soimportant.
I think that fire has alwaysdone it informally around, you
know, the table at the firestation after a call.
It's not, it's always been alittle more except with police.
I I don't know Texas, but manytowns around here, you you know,
you go to a call, you're alone.
(26:24):
Maybe the sergeant backs you upif it's big and lieutenant or
you get some backup.
But ultimately, once you leavethe place, you're alone.
You know, you don't have apartner in the vehicle with you.
That can you talk more aboutpeer support and how important
it is for most departments tohave them?
SPEAKER_02 (26:39):
Yeah, and I've I have heard what you've just said
several times from people on theEast Coast where they say, you
know, fire has got it kind ofsquared away more so than
police.
And the opposite is true, notacross the board, but generally
speaking, the opposite is trueon the West Coast.
And uh who knows it's a mixedbag down the middle of the
country, I suppose.
But yeah, I have yeah, I have Ijust want to know what Texas is
(27:02):
now.
Yeah, well, yeah, they haveyeah, they've got the law
enforcement peer supportnetwork.
So yeah, I mean, I think thething is is that peer support is
incredibly important.
But if you look at the historyof peer support in the first
responder profession inparticular, it has been really
more has a history more out ofcritical incident stress
(27:23):
management.
When something bad happened, weall come together, we talk about
the bad thing that happened, weask, you know, get people with
resources, we fill in holes inthe story, we do these things.
And that's great.
That's what's oftentimes neededin the immediate aftermath of a
critical incident.
But there has been thisevolution and understanding and
the peer support really, peersupport really has come more out
(27:45):
of the addictions area and hascome out of educational spaces
and other kinds of places wherewe're like, hey, wait, we we
don't need to have some big T,as they call it the big trauma.
Um we need people, peers, tocome alongside their peers and
talk with them through thesmaller traumas, the small teas,
(28:08):
the the day-to-day wear andtear, the relationship, you
know, the burnout, those typesof things.
And then, and so I make adistinction between reactive,
which is critical incidentstress management, and uh by
design, it's critical incident,and then responsive, which is
oh, I noticed, you know, Bob'snot acting the same, Jane's not
acting the same.
(28:28):
Like I'm gonna go check in on anM or make some contacts.
And so that's responsive tosomething you've noticed, and
progressive, which is do we haveto show a change in our
behavior?
Do we have to show a change inour showing up for work or those
types of things?
Or can we be progressive andsay, can we all kind of become
(28:51):
resilience ninjas as peer teammembers and help our peers
become resilience ninjas bygiving them tools and making it
okay culturally for people tosay, hey, this call bothered me,
or this parent that's getting,you know, older and sicker and
you know, more feeble, you know,that I that's really starting to
(29:11):
kind of wear on my soul a bitlike, you know, can we actually
have those conversations moreproactively where we're
preparing people for those typesof things, whether it be through
training or programs or evenself-assessments that they can
do, or they're just like, hey,no one's gonna get this data,
just just assess for yourself.
(29:32):
How do you feel like you'recaring for yourself with the
compassion fatigue, with theburnout, with the relationship
strain, those kinds of things?
So I think that's really wherewe need to be taking peer
support.
And that's where I'm trying totake peer support when I'm
engaged with agencies doingthis.
And if you want to talk aboutSissippus feeling like you're
pushing the rock up, there aresome that are standing alongside
(29:55):
me pushing that rock up.
And then there are others thatare saying, oh gosh, no, because
I'm trying to do peer supportoff the corner of my desk.
I already have 10 milliondemands, uh, there's no budget
for that.
And oh, you know, and I'm notsaying that there, there's not
truth to that, but it it doesmake it harder to push that rock
(30:18):
up at times.
SPEAKER_00 (30:20):
I think there's so many things that you said.
I would argue that, you know,what I tell my guy is, and I'll
save the whole story because Iwant to respect the privacy.
When uh someone called me afterthree major incidents in one
day, one involving a familymember, and he called me the day
after, and we started workingtogether right away.
(30:40):
And while, you know, the familymember particular story still
gets to him a little bit, whichis normal if you ask me, because
that would happen to anyone inthe community in the civilian
world, he was able to handle it.
And how I what I explained to alot of people is that's how you
keep it to be acute stressdisorder, not post-traumatic
stress.
And being able to do the workright away is so key.
(31:00):
And the fact that he had the, Idon't know, the guts to call me,
whatever you want to call it.
And, you know, he knew how inJudge M.
He he heard of me from XYZ.
That really helped.
I guess the the the next thing Iwant to mention before but like
I I the thing that you talkedabout peer support in Sisyphus.
Where do you think peer supportis right now and where do you
(31:21):
want to bring it?
SPEAKER_02 (31:24):
And where it is depends on where you're at,
right?
Honestly, because um places arereally dialed in.
And they like I saw an emailearlier today from one of my
peer leads who's was talkingabout the topic for for next
week's training and was tellingme what that they were doing as
(31:44):
peer teams, that they were doingwellness rounds with with all
their shifts.
So they are progressive, theyare they're not just reactive,
they're progressive.
And then they're having me comein on a regular basis and having
me on a rig, havingconversations, and that's not
peer support, but it is a peersupport-driven initiative
because they see this as part ofan entire picture.
(32:07):
And so I think in some placesthey're great.
And then I think in other placesthere is um the old regime stand
strong.
We don't need anyone, we'regood.
You know, you know, peersupport.
You know, I think sometimes thethe peer teams themselves, and
I've I have to be careful how Isay this.
I I have said the only thingworse than no peer team is a bad
(32:31):
peer team.
And by bad peer team, I mean onethat is not properly supported
with training and guidance onhaving healthy boundaries and
having an offset of compassionfatigue by leaning into
compassion satisfaction, andthey don't have a clinical
advisor that's able to continuetheir education with them on
(32:55):
burnout or moral injury orwhatever the case might be.
So I think you get a bad peerteam when they're not properly
chosen, they're not properlyscreened, they're not properly
trained, and they're notmaintaining that training, and
then they're not removing themor pausing them when it's time
(33:16):
to pause or to be removed.
Because no one gets put, and I'mjust saying this bluntly, no one
gets put on the SWAT teambecause they raise their hand
first and said, Me, me, me, Iwant to be on SWAT team.
I like they look like ninjas.
I want to be a ninja, I'm gonnado that.
I don't really need to train.
Yep, I've done some stuff, I'veyou know, goofed some things,
(33:38):
but I already said I was on it,so I'm on it.
You can't get rid of me, right?
So the SWAT team would kicksomeone off if they were not
showing up to training or theywere not demonstrating a
commitment to the mission andthe safety of it and you know,
all the things, right?
They would be kicked off in aflash because what the SWAT team
does is incredibly important.
(34:00):
So is what the peer team does.
And for for it is so it isn't itis a different context, but it
can literally be life and deathon a peer that is like, I hope
you have your stuff togetherwhen you show up to me as a peer
team member, because it can makethe difference between that peer
feeling like they'll take areferral and turning things
(34:22):
around if they were marchingtowards something not so good or
not.
SPEAKER_00 (34:27):
Well, you know, we're getting close to that half
hour.
Would you want to stick aroundfor another half hour?
I want to finish off on the peersupport stuff and then really
get to the books because thethe, you know, I really want to
talk more about that.
Is that okay with you?
Yeah, sounds good to me.
Well, for everyone listeningright now, come back for part
two of the of this episode nexton resilience development in
action.
And I thank you for listeningthis week.
SPEAKER_01 (34:49):
Please like, subscribe, and follow this
podcast on your favoriteplatform.
A glowing review is alwayshelpful.
And as a reminder, this podcastis for informational,
educational, and entertainmentpurposes only.
If you're struggling with amental health or substance abuse
issue, please reach out to aprofessional counselor for
consultation.
If you are in a mental healthcrisis, call 988 for assistance.
(35:13):
This number is available in theUnited States and Canada.
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