April 1, 2026 • 37 mins
If you think police wellness is mostly about eating better and “handling stress,” this conversation will challenge you fast. Kevin Gilmartin returns and gets blunt about what the job does to the body and brain over years of hypervigilance, and why the usual scapegoat (donuts) misses the real drivers: cortisol, adrenaline, sleep debt, and a culture that treats prevention like an optional perk.
We talk through the metabolic health side of first responder mental health, including type 2 diabetes risk, abdominal weight gain, and the two simplest red flags that signal trouble: shrinking sleep and expanding waist size. We also dig into a tough truth from decades of fitness-for-duty work, where “anger issues” are often undiagnosed sleep disorders and exhaustion. If we want safer decisions, better policing, and fewer careers ending early, sleep hygiene and daily physical training have to be treated like officer safety, not a personal preference.
From there we zoom out to leadership, overtime culture, and the retirement transition. When the job becomes identity, relationships, and social life, retirement can feel like a cliff. We discuss practical time management, building civilian friendships, and keeping hobbies alive now rather than postponing life until “after I retire.” We also touch on financial wellness, smarter wellness programs, sabbaticals like other countries use, and why clinicians need real cultural competency through ride-alongs and time in the environment.
You’ll also hear a powerful example of peer support done right: community, hobbies, and living in the moment, plus a strong recommendation for Kevin Gilmartin’s book Emotional Survival for Law Enforcement. If this helped, subscribe, share it with a coworker, and leave a review so more first responders can find it.
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Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_00 (00:01):
Welcome to Resilience Development in Action
with Steve Bisson.
This is the podcast dedicated tofirst responder mental health,
helping police, fire, EMS,dispatchers, and paramedics
create better growthenvironments for themselves and
their teams.
Let's get started.
SPEAKER_02 (00:36):
We've been talking a lot about like wellness.
We've talked about leadership.
We talked about diabetes.
One thing I want to finish offfrom our last conversation is
that one of the misconceptionsthat I hear from many people,
including police.
Oh, I can only get diabetes ifit's because I'm having you know
bad food.
And if I eat right, I'll befine.
(00:58):
And I'm like, yeah, no, that'snot how that works.
And most people get up my assabout it, but maybe you could
help.
Maybe, like, you know, you're aformer cop, so maybe you'll have
more value than what I fuckingsay.
SPEAKER_01 (01:09):
You know, let me tell you, donuts have taken a
bad rap.
Exactly.
They have just, you know, it'salways been built in, you know,
the old power rings, you know,the donuts.
That's that's why cops gain 50pounds.
No, it's not.
I don't get me wrong.
They're not the nutritionalissues of cops suck.
They're terrible.
You're eating fast food, you'reeating at odd hours.
(01:31):
But what happens is it is thecop loses.
First of all, the cop doesn'thave knowledge of what's going
on biologically with them.
And that's part of the of thewellness training.
You wouldn't you wouldn't teachcops on the range how to not
clear a malfunction.
(01:52):
The guy has a malfunction, theyget a stovepipe on their weapon,
they show them how to clear thatand get back in the fight.
But we don't show them how doyou undo the damage that officer
safety has caused to yourmetabolic health.
And it's terribly simple.
Yeah, we do need betternutrition, absolutely.
But we need to have cops in thegym undoing the damage that all
(02:13):
this adrenaline and cortisol hascaused.
Research is absolutely clear.
A lot of it comes out of Boston.
And we know, for example, if acop walks on a treadmill, or
anybody walks on a treadmillbriskly for 20 minutes a day, it
treats depression as effectivelyas antidepressant medication and
(02:35):
counseling.
So it shouldn't be an optionthat cops exercise, but it
should be mandated.
And this is where leadershipcomes in.
And I I love when I speak tochiefs and they say, Oh, our
cops can exercise on duty callload permitting.
(02:56):
I said, Chief, when is call loadever permitting?
You're down 20% of yourofficers, your calls are
stacked, the officers areworking.
No, I'm not talking about callload permitting.
Um I'm talking about mandatory,at least a half hour of
mandatory physical fitness everysingle day.
You don't clear, the the word,the the way out of the
(03:18):
department is through the gym.
And that's part of your workday, and you're compensated for
it.
And if in fact something happensin the gym, that's that's a
work-related injury.
And and so we get we we have allof these.
It's okay to have the policeofficer have a heart attack,
have a stroke, or develop type 2diabetes, but but it's not okay
if they they pull a muscle doingsome weight work.
(03:42):
I go to stress conferences, lawenforcement stress conferences,
and I see the chaplains, I seethe therapists, I see the
psychologist, but I very rarelysee the physical fitness
coordinators.
And they're they're the major,most underappreciated linchpin
in this whole movement if we'regoing to get good, effective
(04:02):
cops out doing the job.
There's two red flags to me whena cop isn't doing well.
The first is, as we mentionedearlier, sleep.
Has your sleep pattern changedsince you became a cop?
And the second red flag is hasyour waist size increased?
You've been on the job 10 years.
(04:24):
Can you wear the uniform yougraduated from the police
academy in?
If you're sleeping seven toeight hours a day and you could
fit in the uniform you wear youwore at graduation from the
police academy, you're probablytaking care of yourself.
If you've gained 15, 20 poundsin those 10 years and you're
sleeping four to six hours anight, you're not doing well.
(04:46):
That is a red flag.
And you can use all the denialyou want about it, but things
aren't working for you, and youwill pay the price for that.
Not when you're 35, but clearlywhen you're 55, you will.
SPEAKER_02 (04:58):
Well, there's two things I want to go with there.
It's yeah, it's not it thathealth stuff is so important.
And I tell people you want toavoid seeing me regularly.
I'm not saying that mentalhealth is not important, but
work out, and there's a goodchance that this is going to
significantly decrease if youneed me at all.
I do believe in wellness visits,don't get me wrong.
Once you're the checkup from theneck up is essential, but
(05:21):
sometimes I'm not minimizingthat at all, Steve.
Oh no, no, no, no.
I know you're not.
I was just this is not what yousaid.
I was just because remember,like again, thank you, audience.
If you want to write me aletter, go ahead.
Sometimes my audiencemisinterprets things like all
the letters you want.
I don't care.
That's why I want to make surewe said that, not because of
(05:42):
you, just because they needed tohear it.
SPEAKER_01 (05:44):
Well, they're writing a letter, that means
they're listening, and that'shalf the battle, you know.
SPEAKER_02 (05:47):
Because I've had those like, so you think we're
all crazy?
No, that's not what I said.
You misinterpreted what wassaid.
So now I just try to do it rightaway.
And I like your two red flags,the sleep and the waist side
increasing.
That that that that's absolutelygood signs.
And when I talk about sleephygiene, I get these like, what
are you talking about?
(06:07):
And then I'm like, I can saveyour career by just giving you
good sleep hygiene, add someexercise.
You probably won't need me thatmuch.
SPEAKER_01 (06:16):
Well, you know, it's I've had lots and lots of cops
sent to me over the last 40, 50years for fitness for duty
evaluations.
They they're a little overlyexuberant on an arrest, or maybe
we have a little kind ofdomestic issue at home that had
a physical component to it.
(06:37):
And they want to know I had themassess for anger management
deficiencies.
And I'll say, Chief, your copdoesn't have an anger issue.
He has an undiagnosed sleepdisorder.
And we need to start addressingthat.
You know, you you can't justhave the cops say, I go to sleep
when I get tired.
(06:57):
Because you won't get tired.
You have learned to overrideyour body's thermostat of
fatigue.
You you the you don't have ametric to realize you're tired.
And I I always think of my ownlife.
On September 11th, 2001, I waswith the Boca Raton, Florida
Police Department.
(07:17):
We were talking with their SWATteam, and everybody's pager went
off.
And everybody had to deploy inthe police department deployed
their officers, and my pagerwent off, and I was being called
by the Department of Justice toask if I could get to New York.
I said, Okay, I'll hop a plane.
(07:38):
They said there's no planes, allplanes are being grounded.
Do you have a rental car?
I said, Yes, I do.
Just head up here.
They told me where we we weregoing to be meeting at which
hotel, right on the New Jerseyside of the tunnels.
So I started from Boca Ratone,Florida.
I got in the car, I starteddriving towards New New York on
9-11.
(08:00):
I made it all the way to NewYork, which is virtually a very
abnormal act to be able to doit.
That must be a thousand miles, Idon't know how far it is.
Yeah, it's a good ride.
And that was because I was a lotyounger then, but it was also
because my police career was inmy rear view mirror very
recently.
And the the capacity to stayawake for that length of time is
(08:25):
evidence of a sleep disorder.
It's not a strength, it's aliability.
When I'm teaching a class andthere's some guy in the back of
the room and he falls asleep,and somebody says, That you
ought to address that guysleeping in the back of the
room.
I say, he's doing exactly whathis body demands that he does.
He worked midnight.
(08:45):
The poor guy ought to be asleepright now.
We should be teaching this classat midnight to accommodate his
biological clock.
And we ignore that.
But sleep sleep is terriblyimportant.
But overall wellness, getting inthe gym.
I remember I remember they usedto have signs in the gyms all
over the uh Marine Corps bases.
(09:07):
It would say, the more you sweatin peace, the less you bleed in
war.
And and that made good sense.
It made really, really goodsense.
And I look at cops today.
We graduated from the policeacademy, or not just today, we
always have.
They're lean, they're mean,they're knocking out 50
push-ups, they can run a 10K.
(09:28):
Then you come back 18 yearslater, and five push-ups would
put them in the cardiac careunit.
Right.
And we we don't see that as abig glaring flag being waved in
front of us.
SPEAKER_02 (09:40):
Well, and I don't know why we don't see that as a
problem.
Well, we have our preconceivednotions.
It's it's all the donuts.
No, but it's not the adrenaline,it's the donuts.
Sure.
Okay, so let me listen.
Let me be again a I'm gonna tossa grenade here as I call it.
Well, they signed up for thisafter all, so it's on them,
(10:00):
right?
SPEAKER_01 (10:01):
Yeah, they signed up assuming they would have
leadership, not bosses.
They would have people who aregonna pave the way for them and
mentor them, lead them.
And again, with leadership, youhave a vision to run your
agency, and you have to put thatvision through to the
implementers, the cops, the rankand file.
(10:22):
Well, if if you're not takingcare of them, they're not gonna
take care of you.
And it's I don't know how manytimes I've been to a police
department over the years thatthere's a vote of no confidence
going on on the chief or thesheriff or whoever the head of
the agency is.
And all that vote of noconfidence is is just a
measurement of the anger andlack of mental health within the
(10:44):
rank and file.
It's and sometimes there's jerksthat are chiefs that need to be
removed, but even the bestchief, if they have they're not
taking care of mental health oftheir personnel, they're they're
gonna pay the price for it.
But uh well, I I look, I guess Ihave this vision.
Young man, young woman signs up,becomes a cop.
(11:06):
And when I speak at the policeacademies for recruits, and I've
been doing this for so many,many years, I I I walk away with
a worry.
It's like, I hope this young manor this young woman who's
standing in front of me at 23,24, I hope they're still as
intact at 33, 34, 43, 44, 53,54.
(11:29):
And I know a great number ofthem will not be.
Right.
And we really want them to havea rich, full life, serve the
community for their 25, 30years, whatever it is, but then
pull the pin, retire, andcollect that pension that
they've earned, and then do thethings that they want to do with
their life, the dreams that theyhave, whatever those are.
(11:51):
You know, what whatever thoseare.
If it's riding your Harley upthe Pacific Coast Highway, if
it's drinking a beer on thebeach in in Florida, if it's fly
fishing in Montana, I I don'tcare.
I want you to do those things.
And so many older cops can't dothose things because they're
physically disabled because ofthe price they paid, because of
the job, because of lack ofmobility, lack of dynamic
(12:13):
strength, metabolic illness,heart disease.
And we can prevent that.
SPEAKER_02 (12:18):
And I had a if someone asked me that question
to ask you, so I'm going to goahead and ask you directly what
they said because thank you forthe for the direct question.
But why is retirementemotionally also harder for
officers in general?
SPEAKER_01 (12:33):
Well, police work is a pretty heavy investment, a
pretty heavy investmentprofession.
You give your heart and soul toit, but you give your time to
it.
And it's very easy over thecourse of a law enforcement
career to become lawenforcement-centric.
Your friends are cops, yoursocial interactions are cops,
(12:54):
and you haven't built in anyresiliency in the rest of your
life.
It's painful for me to watchthat.
A lot of cops retire, and if youyou talk with them about their
social contacts, they could tellyou the name of every cop in
town, they could tell you thename of the prosecutors, the
defense attorneys, and even halfthe gangsters in town.
(13:16):
But if you ask them aboutsomething that's totally
unrelated, they draw up blanks.
You know, my wife and I wouldhave barbecues out here in
Arizona, and we had our socialfriends would come.
Most of my friends were lawenforcement-related people, and
would have a massive number ofpeople, and a lot of them had
(13:38):
nothing to do with lawenforcement.
And my non-cop friends wouldcome up to me and say, Hey,
Kevin, do your cop friends talkabout anything but work, but
their job?
Do they talk about anything buttheir job?
I said, No, no, they pretty muchtalk about the job.
Well, I don't talk about my job.
(13:59):
Well, that's because your jobsucks.
You know, no, nobody cares howmuch lumber they sold at
Lumberman's last month.
You watch television shows aboutthem.
They're not watching televisionshows about you.
And so, since it's a totalinvolvement, foot on the
accelerator type of life as acop, then all of a sudden it's
gone.
It's a void.
There's this huge hole.
(14:20):
The first six months afterretirement, it's it they're
almost like a surreal time forfor folks.
And it then it depends on whatwhat have you how have you
prepared yourself?
If you go to the gym every daywhile you're a cop, you'll still
go to the gym every day whenyou're retired.
If you're playing golf threedays a week as a cop, you'll
(14:43):
play golf three days a week intoretirement.
But so many cops they use theirsense of time is into they tell
you what they used to do forabout the first 10 or 15 years
of their career.
They used to go to the gym, theyused to go hiking, they used to
go fishing.
Everything's in the past tense.
Then after about 10 or 15 years,they tell you what they're gonna
(15:06):
do.
When I retire, I'm gonna dothis.
I said, well, instead of tellingme that you're gonna go fishing
when you retire, why don't yougo fishing today?
Why why did you go to the gymtoday?
Let's not keep putting, let'sjust live in the moment.
And and and and I think that,you know, we we interviewed
cops, had an extensive kind ofinterviewed a bunch of cops when
(15:28):
they became eligible to retire.
It didn't mean they wereretiring, it meant they were
eligible to retire.
They could pull the pin anytimethey want.
And I would say you've been onthe job 25 years now.
You can pull the pin, it's KMAtime for you, or you can stay
longer if you'd like.
What's the one lesson thatyou've learned over this past
(15:50):
quarter century?
What's what's your biggestregret that you you wish that
you knew then what you know now?
And by far, the number oneregret of retirement eligible
police officers was I wish I haddone more in my personal life
with my kids.
I wish I had spent more timewith my family.
(16:12):
And they they worded itdifferently, but it was all this
sense of lost time.
The dates changed, the yearschanged, but they never learned
how to control time.
So one of the first things toprepare for retirement starts
the day you walk into the policeacademy, and that's to learn
aggressive personal timemanagement, setting specific
(16:35):
goals that you define and thenfollowing them through and doing
them.
Keeping a written calendar, andyou and your family, we work
around that calendar.
Not big stuff, little stuff, butit but you run the fabric of
your life, not the call, theradio doesn't run it.
You run your life.
SPEAKER_02 (16:59):
Just a quick break, guys.
I'm gonna talk about a newproduct that I really like.
I actually bought one of theirhoodies, it was amazing, and I
really enjoyed wearing it.
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Deemed Fit is a firstresponder-owned activewear and a
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And one thing that I genuinelylike about them is that they
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I actually gave a few people Iknow who work with first
(17:21):
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(17:45):
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Now, right back to the episode.
Well, I like what you said aboutwhen you start the academy
because I I talk about that alittle bit and people get to
give me the grumble.
(18:06):
And then after that, I say,well, two years before you
retire, you gotta startpreparing because you're not
ready.
And they still look at me andthey grumble.
And once they retire, most ofthem also go like, uh, that's
what you were talking about.
I'm like, you damn that's what Iwas talking about.
SPEAKER_01 (18:23):
Yeah, you get wisdom as you get older.
The only trouble is sometimesyou can't you're so beaten up,
you can't do anything about it.
SPEAKER_02 (18:29):
But I I think that that's the hard part, right?
It to me, it's get civilianfriends.
You don't need to always talkshop because what happens with I
don't know, I can only speakintelligently about this area.
But what other cops tend to fallin love with when they're
working because they're going toretire, they fall in love with
(18:49):
details.
So they do their shift and thenthey go to detail, or they do a
detail and they go to a shift,or vice versa, and then they do
doubles and they get theovertime.
And suddenly they're 25 yearsin, they don't know your their
kids, they don't know theirwife.
Now they have the money, butthey didn't even enjoy it once.
Now they're 55, can't walk, andthey're fucked up in the head.
SPEAKER_01 (19:08):
Yeah, they've worked all those details, so they got
to pay their federal income taxso they can support a Somali uh
daycare center.
That's that's I mean, that's athat's a heck of a deal, right?
You know, give me time, don'tgive me money.
The good one.
Massachusetts.
Your your your home state is oneof the worst in terms of the of
the detail.
(19:29):
And if you think about it, I canremember talking to a young cop
on the Cape years ago, and hecame up to me, he said, Doc, do
you know how many details Iworked last month?
I said, I have no idea.
He said it's 30.
I said, How can you possiblywork 30 details?
There's only 30 days in themonth.
(19:50):
He said, Well, I uh we have tobe off the books for eight hours
every day and show that.
He said, But on my days off,I'll work two shifts.
I'll work two details rather.
And he went on to explain indepth his details.
Now, stop and think.
That's a young man withcommitment, with dedication, and
(20:10):
with a work ethic.
Those are the type of people whobuilt our country.
Committed salt of the earthpeople, but he's killing
himself.
He's just killing himself.
And the as I look at it, just II'm thinking, why can't we why
can't we address issues moreeffectively, especially monetary
issues?
(20:31):
We don't just talk aboutphysical fitness, we have to
talk about monetary fitnessalso.
Absolutely.
I I had a captain came in myoffice one time, and I was about
four years short of retirement.
We were talking.
Good guy.
And he goes, How are you doingwith the deferred compensation
program?
I said, I don't even know whatit is.
He goes, You don't know what thedeferred comp program is?
(20:54):
I said, No.
He took me by the ear, hemarched me down to the human
resources section, he signed meup for it, and he said, Since
you're within so many years ofretirement, you can double your
contribution.
And it was the first time in mycareer I took a moment to look
at all the stuff that I thoughtwas just peripheral bullshit.
(21:15):
Okay.
I have to go to a retirementseminar about three months
before I pulled a pin.
And they bring in someone fromCounty Finance.
He's talking to all thesecynical cops, all most of them
were sergeants, but all had atleast 25 years on.
And he goes, Do you know if youhad contributed X amount of
dollars for the first five yearsof your career as a young
(21:38):
officer, you'd be having, youknow,$1.3 million invested right
now.
And this one sergeant goes, Hey,asshole, why didn't you tell us
that when we're getting hired,not when we're retiring?
Well, we can't do shit about it.
And and that some departmentsnow have excellent wellness
programs.
(21:58):
I I go to some Uh some policedepartments, I am so impressed
by the the financial guidancethey have, the experts they
bring in to work with the cops.
And it and then you go the nextday to a police department, then
it might as well be 1972.
They're as different as nightand day.
SPEAKER_02 (22:19):
And I think that that's the other part too, is
you face different departmentsthat deal with it differently,
right?
You know, and you know, there'ssome some departments I've heard
about the third comp, and theyexplain everything in great
detail, and other places theydon't.
I think that you talk about theoverall wellness of police
officers, sheriff, and any LEO,frankly.
(22:41):
I think that what we we tend toforget is we don't see the
person as a whole.
And I think that that's theother part I wanted to kind of
talk a little bit as we're gonnawrap up soon.
But uh people as a whole,because there's a police officer
that's a physical person who'salso a family person, who's a
human being, who happens to be apolice officer, who has his
mental health issue, has his ownhistory.
(23:01):
And I'm not saying thateveryone's fucked up.
That is not what I'm intendingfor.
No, not at all.
We don't see the whole person,we only see a uniform, we only
see what can you do for metoday.
SPEAKER_01 (23:13):
Well, unfortunately, that's how the cop many times
sees themselves.
They don't say I work as a cop.
Many times they say I am a cop.
And a lot of times that has todo with again to the time
element and getting off duty inthis exhausted, parasympathetic
state where they disengage, theybecome Iustas.
Compare it to firefighters whowho have compressed shifts.
(23:37):
They they'll work, well, Ishouldn't say work, they're
firefighters, but well, they'rethey're uh I was gonna make a
joke too about that.
There's no 24-hour shifts arethe minimum, and so they're
there.
So, you know, the differentKelly type of shifts, they'll
have a a day or two on and threeor four days off.
And I don't know a singlefirefighter that's not competent
(23:59):
in some other skill.
They're great firefighters, butthey also can lay tile, they can
also repair a car, they can alsodo electrical work.
The cops I know are great cops,but they supplement their income
by working details, by workingovertime.
So as the years progress throughthe career of a firefighter,
(24:21):
they become more competent in adiversity of skill sets, whereas
the cop becomes highly competentin one skill set, then they
retire and that skill set istaken away.
Whereas the firefighter who'sbeen laying tile just lays a few
more tile jobs, or they putanother roof on.
And the firefighter's notconstantly pumping adrenaline
(24:44):
like the cop is.
Even when the cop is just onpatrol and not engaged in a
call, they're in thathyper-vigilant state kicking out
cortisol.
The firefighter is back at thefirehouse lifting weights and
cooking chili or something.
They will they'll risk theirlives to save my family when the
bell goes off.
But until the bell goes off,they're in the green zone.
(25:06):
They're chilling, they'rekicking back.
So they're not constantlykicking out cortisol, and
they're not constantly puttingglucose into the fat cell around
the abdominal area.
That's why women buy calendarsof firefighters.
They don't buy calendars of copswith their shirts off.
I always like to say, what wouldyou call a calendar of cops?
(25:27):
You know, badges and bellies,you know, that's bad that weight
around the abdominal area, thatfirefighters, by and large, are
far fittered, far leaner.
SPEAKER_02 (25:37):
And you know, I, you know, we joked around about
having more time.
I would also argue, and I meanthey're gonna go too long on
this, but sometimes firefightershave too much time at the
station.
So not only do they work out,and though they start gossiping,
they start like doing all theextracurricular, but that's a
different story for a differentday, I'm sure.
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01 (25:56):
Idleness is the devil's workshop.
That's why fire, that's why fireunions are far more effective
than police unions.
They they have far betterbenefits.
There's one other thing I wantto add here, though, that I
think is critical to thepolicing issue in the United
States, and that's the absenceof sabbaticals for police
officers.
If I'm a police officer inCanada, if I'm a police officer
(26:18):
in Australia or New Zealand, Ihave the capacity to enter a
program where I will put apercentage of my salary into a
def to a defer, like an escrowaccount.
And let's say after every fourthyear of full service, I can take
a year off compensated.
We don't even think about doingthat in the United States.
(26:40):
And if I'm a if I'm teachingfreshman psychology, I'll get a
sabbatical after about six orseven years.
So I can go write a book ortravel.
But trust me, teaching freshmanpsychology is a whole lot less
stressful than working fatal caraccidents.
So I I think our going back tothe question of unions, our
(27:03):
unions need to start fightingfor some things that'll keep
their brother or sister membersalive.
Mandatory physical fitness,mandatory annual physicals, so
we can prevent diseases that arecoming around, and sabbaticals.
And at that point, then we'rethen we're really taking care of
the our rank and file personnel.
SPEAKER_02 (27:23):
And I know that, you know, around here in Providence,
Rhode Island, we've they they'rethe ones who started the whole,
let's get some cancer screeningsdone at the station versus
counting on people to go see adoctor.
And that was innovative.
Now it's been replicated andpeople love it.
That's why, like part of me alsowonders about wellness visits.
You can't do those on-site, inmy experience, because then it
(27:46):
becomes a little lesstrustworthy for some people
because why are you sitting nextto the chief's office or
whatever?
But at the same time, it's thesame.
I think that finding ways to getthe mental health wellness
visits as important as any otherphysical health issue would be.
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01 (28:02):
Absolutely.
And I'll put the burden on themental health practitioners.
We talked about culturalcompetency.
I I really think the therapist,the clinician, needs to be in
the patrol car on occasion.
They need to see the worldthrough a cop's windshield and
not sitting in their office.
And I I find that that helpsdevelop that sense of cultural
(28:26):
appreciation, not this mutualstereotyping that all cops are
this way or all therapists arethat way.
They can see that they can seethe world that this young man or
this young woman has to dealwith every day.
SPEAKER_02 (28:38):
If you don't do a ride-along, you are not going to
be culturally competent.
If you never sit around thefirehouse table, you will never
be culturally competent.
Absolutely.
And if you've never been to likeany type of roll call dispatch
or any type of in-office, also,you will not be competent.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
(28:58):
You know, more worth it thanthat.
You know, like I've done all ofthose.
Dad taught me more than any bookI ever read.
Yeah.
And that's why it's important.
SPEAKER_01 (29:08):
Terribly important to have culturally competent
clinicians.
SPEAKER_02 (29:12):
Well, we're working on it here in Massachusetts with
Behind the Badge and Beyondhere, but we'll continue working
on it uh diligently because tome, what you just said today was
so important in so many ways.
The wellness of our policeofficers start on the day they
go to their training and they dotheir their camp.
(29:32):
And then after boot camp,continuously doing those things
like walking for 20 minutes onthe treadmill, taking care of
their family, their neighbors,and other people that outside of
work so that they can balanceout their whole health system.
SPEAKER_01 (29:47):
You know, it's amazing to me to watch.
I have some very intense habhobbies that I I like.
One is fly fishing.
And I was standing in a river inOregon fly fishing once about
five years ago.
It was a long summer day, it wasending.
It was about 9 30 at night.
(30:08):
It was getting too dark to tosee my fly, but I'm hearing some
voice down the river.
I can't see I'm on there'snobody around.
Must be another angler down theway.
I walk out and I had maybe amile walk back to my pickup.
And I run into a another fella.
(30:28):
I said, Oh.
And we're we're we start talkingto him.
And I find out that that he's acop.
I said, Oh.
I said, Yeah, he's fishing.
No, I run a trauma group outhere.
I said, What?
He goes, Yeah, I have a I have atrauma group and it's um peer
support driven.
(30:49):
They're cops, firefighters,dispatchers who join a group.
This was in Bend, Oregon, andthey called it the tight blue
lines.
They can Google that and andtight blue lines, and they get
together and they live in themoment.
They learn to fly fish.
And they they get to to to putnot thinking about the calls,
(31:13):
not thinking about the trauma,not thinking about all the drama
at work.
They're just watching a dry fly,picking up a fish here and
there, and living in the moment.
And to me, that's the essence.
Peer support, living in themoment, having rich, full lives.
They're still great cops, butnow they're becoming great fire
fishermen.
Having that bifurcation.
SPEAKER_02 (31:33):
I mean, I wrote it down tight blue lines.
I mean, I there's something forveterans that's similar to what
I work with around here, whichis rifles to rods, where
basically they take out theveterans for fishing.
There's no like pressure,there's no converse.
You want to talk, you don'ttalk.
You want to talk the whole time,you talk the whole time.
SPEAKER_01 (31:49):
Yeah, the healing waters program, terribly
important.
Absolutely.
And I think that holistic typeapproach to law enforcement that
we have to start getting into.
SPEAKER_02 (31:57):
And and that's why, like for my group, sometimes
like we've done we did this inDecember.
We went to someone's house andaround the fire pit, and we
ended up spending a couple hoursjust chit-chatting there.
And someone said to me, How isthat a group?
I said, other than thefirefighters start hanging out
with the firefighters and thepolice hang out with the police.
The other immense part is thatthey all sat, laugh, left,
(32:20):
everyone had their phone number,and now they have friends
outside of their workenvironment that are there.
Absolutely.
That's so important.
Building resiliency.
Yeah, I'm not like people like,oh, what type of therapy do you
do?
My therapy doesn't matter.
It really doesn't.
It's the support they get toeach other.
That's why I run that group.
Yeah, absolutely.
Yes.
100%.
(32:41):
I'll throw in a couple ofthings.
There's a a long-running jokeabout me being a French maid,
but if you want to know more,just write to me.
But you just run with it, andit's so much more fun because,
guys, well, we talked one dayabout a police officer who
unfortunately passed away aroundhere due to a vehicle accident.
And then we talked about someonegrowing up with abuse.
(33:02):
And then the next session, weended up laughing about an
incident that occurred at awrestling event around here.
Happened to be midgets.
And we had a 40-minute laughterabout that.
And people like, How is thattherapy?
I said, they all trust eachother now.
Yeah.
They all trust me, even thoughI'm a civilian.
(33:22):
So I like that.
Well, that that having a senseof community is terribly
important.
Well, as we wrap up here, whatdo you where where can we find
you?
SPEAKER_01 (33:31):
I know I found you through your website, but well,
I I think I I guess you couldlook my name up on the internet
and read some of the thingswe've published.
You could read our book,Emotional Survival for Law
Enforcement.
I'll go ahead and send you alink if any of your listeners
would like to look at the book.
That that outlines pretty mucheverything we spoke about today.
(33:55):
We wrote that book in 2002.
It's been revised about ninetimes.
The last one was came out, thenew one came out last year.
Uh, and it looks at this wholejourney through through law
enforcement.
It it's applicable, I think, tofire, but I have to let the
firefighters determine that.
I don't I don't have theexpertise in that field.
(34:16):
Having read the book, it'shelpful.
SPEAKER_02 (34:18):
Having read the revised group, I haven't read
the one from a year ago.
You're costing me a lot of moneyhere, Kevin.
SPEAKER_01 (34:25):
Not really.
We keep the price of that bookpretty, pretty cheap.
I know, it is really good.
It was a labor of love, not amonetary game.
SPEAKER_02 (34:34):
I hope people go grab it, and I definitely will
be grabbing the new.
Like, send me the link, I'll putit in a show notes.
And truly, the people who havelistened to this podcast for
almost five years know I don'tlie.
I've read that book at leasttwice, if not three times.
One of them I might havecheated, not read the whole
thing.
It is highly recommended forpolice officers.
Fire can get something out ofit, but it really like any LEO
(34:58):
type of guy, I think goes a lotbetter for them.
SPEAKER_01 (35:01):
If there's any big words in there that the
firefighter doesn't understand,they could just ask the local
cop and he'll explain what theword means.
It I'll tell you a funny storyabout that book.
In the wintertime, I'm beingdriven out to Camp McCoy,
Wisconsin, where they train thehighway patrol officers, state
patrol officers, middle of thenight at two in the morning.
(35:22):
I have a car driving me outthere, and we run into a deer,
smashes the entire car.
The driver's injured, notseverely, broke his arm, and I'm
in the back seat, and theairbags deploy.
So hit 911, troopers show up,they have to euthanize the deer,
to get an ambulance to chart offthe uh the driver.
(35:44):
And the trooper says he's gonnawait with me there at the side
of the highway because of thelate hour and the remoteness of
the location.
And he asked me, Why am I goingto Camp McCoy?
I said, I'm gonna teach a classfor your outfit, the state
patrol.
He said, What are you gonnateach?
I said, I'm gonna teach a classcalled emotional survival.
(36:04):
And he goes, Oh, like an assholeGilmartin.
And so I said, I'm Gilmartin.
So he goes, Hang on a second.
So he runs back to his patrolcar and he goes back with a
battered copy of the book withlittle stickets and post-its on
all these pages.
(36:24):
He said, I had a question foryou on page 182.
I was gonna send you an emailabout it.
I said, you know, I don't knowwhat's on page 182, but the next
time you want to talk to me,just send the email.
Don't send the deer, okay?
It just I'll always rememberthat.
Yeah, don't send the deer.
And the guy produces that book.
(36:45):
So we're we're very happy thatwith the the footprint the book
has found and the impact it inin people's lives.
So that's that's what it waswritten for.
So I hope your readers do take alook or borrow one, steal one,
get one somewhere.
Just read it and discuss theinformation with your with your
loved ones.
SPEAKER_02 (37:02):
If you're my client, I have like two versions here
already.
And if you're not one of myclients, go buy it on.
We're gonna get a link for youto go get it so that Kevin will
send that.
And from the bottom of my heart,you know, I I really enjoyed our
conversation.
I hope we stay in touch.
This is an amazing conversation.
I hope people listen to this, goget your book.
And I I thank you for your time.
(37:23):
Thank you, Steve.
SPEAKER_01 (37:24):
Take care, keep up the good work.
SPEAKER_00 (37:27):
Please like, subscribe, and follow this
podcast on your favoriteplatform.
A glowing review is alwayshelpful.
And as a reminder, this podcastis for informational,
educational, and entertainmentpurposes only.
If you're struggling with amental health or substance abuse
issue, please reach out to aprofessional counselor for
consultation.
If you are in a mental healthcrisis, call 988 for assistance.
(37:51):
This number is available in theUnited States and Canada.
Welcome to Resilience Development in Action
with Steve Bisson.
This is the podcast dedicated tofirst responder mental health,
helping police, fire, EMS,dispatchers, and paramedics
create better growthenvironments for themselves and
their teams.
Let's get started.
SPEAKER_02 (00:36):
We've been talking a lot about like wellness.
We've talked about leadership.
We talked about diabetes.
One thing I want to finish offfrom our last conversation is
that one of the misconceptionsthat I hear from many people,
including police.
Oh, I can only get diabetes ifit's because I'm having you know
bad food.
And if I eat right, I'll befine.
(00:58):
And I'm like, yeah, no, that'snot how that works.
And most people get up my assabout it, but maybe you could
help.
Maybe, like, you know, you're aformer cop, so maybe you'll have
more value than what I fuckingsay.
SPEAKER_01 (01:09):
You know, let me tell you, donuts have taken a
bad rap.
Exactly.
They have just, you know, it'salways been built in, you know,
the old power rings, you know,the donuts.
That's that's why cops gain 50pounds.
No, it's not.
I don't get me wrong.
They're not the nutritionalissues of cops suck.
They're terrible.
You're eating fast food, you'reeating at odd hours.
(01:31):
But what happens is it is thecop loses.
First of all, the cop doesn'thave knowledge of what's going
on biologically with them.
And that's part of the of thewellness training.
You wouldn't you wouldn't teachcops on the range how to not
clear a malfunction.
(01:52):
The guy has a malfunction, theyget a stovepipe on their weapon,
they show them how to clear thatand get back in the fight.
But we don't show them how doyou undo the damage that officer
safety has caused to yourmetabolic health.
And it's terribly simple.
Yeah, we do need betternutrition, absolutely.
But we need to have cops in thegym undoing the damage that all
(02:13):
this adrenaline and cortisol hascaused.
Research is absolutely clear.
A lot of it comes out of Boston.
And we know, for example, if acop walks on a treadmill, or
anybody walks on a treadmillbriskly for 20 minutes a day, it
treats depression as effectivelyas antidepressant medication and
(02:35):
counseling.
So it shouldn't be an optionthat cops exercise, but it
should be mandated.
And this is where leadershipcomes in.
And I I love when I speak tochiefs and they say, Oh, our
cops can exercise on duty callload permitting.
(02:56):
I said, Chief, when is call loadever permitting?
You're down 20% of yourofficers, your calls are
stacked, the officers areworking.
No, I'm not talking about callload permitting.
Um I'm talking about mandatory,at least a half hour of
mandatory physical fitness everysingle day.
You don't clear, the the word,the the way out of the
(03:18):
department is through the gym.
And that's part of your workday, and you're compensated for
it.
And if in fact something happensin the gym, that's that's a
work-related injury.
And and so we get we we have allof these.
It's okay to have the policeofficer have a heart attack,
have a stroke, or develop type 2diabetes, but but it's not okay
if they they pull a muscle doingsome weight work.
(03:42):
I go to stress conferences, lawenforcement stress conferences,
and I see the chaplains, I seethe therapists, I see the
psychologist, but I very rarelysee the physical fitness
coordinators.
And they're they're the major,most underappreciated linchpin
in this whole movement if we'regoing to get good, effective
(04:02):
cops out doing the job.
There's two red flags to me whena cop isn't doing well.
The first is, as we mentionedearlier, sleep.
Has your sleep pattern changedsince you became a cop?
And the second red flag is hasyour waist size increased?
You've been on the job 10 years.
(04:24):
Can you wear the uniform yougraduated from the police
academy in?
If you're sleeping seven toeight hours a day and you could
fit in the uniform you wear youwore at graduation from the
police academy, you're probablytaking care of yourself.
If you've gained 15, 20 poundsin those 10 years and you're
sleeping four to six hours anight, you're not doing well.
(04:46):
That is a red flag.
And you can use all the denialyou want about it, but things
aren't working for you, and youwill pay the price for that.
Not when you're 35, but clearlywhen you're 55, you will.
SPEAKER_02 (04:58):
Well, there's two things I want to go with there.
It's yeah, it's not it thathealth stuff is so important.
And I tell people you want toavoid seeing me regularly.
I'm not saying that mentalhealth is not important, but
work out, and there's a goodchance that this is going to
significantly decrease if youneed me at all.
I do believe in wellness visits,don't get me wrong.
Once you're the checkup from theneck up is essential, but
(05:21):
sometimes I'm not minimizingthat at all, Steve.
Oh no, no, no, no.
I know you're not.
I was just this is not what yousaid.
I was just because remember,like again, thank you, audience.
If you want to write me aletter, go ahead.
Sometimes my audiencemisinterprets things like all
the letters you want.
I don't care.
That's why I want to make surewe said that, not because of
(05:42):
you, just because they needed tohear it.
SPEAKER_01 (05:44):
Well, they're writing a letter, that means
they're listening, and that'shalf the battle, you know.
SPEAKER_02 (05:47):
Because I've had those like, so you think we're
all crazy?
No, that's not what I said.
You misinterpreted what wassaid.
So now I just try to do it rightaway.
And I like your two red flags,the sleep and the waist side
increasing.
That that that that's absolutelygood signs.
And when I talk about sleephygiene, I get these like, what
are you talking about?
(06:07):
And then I'm like, I can saveyour career by just giving you
good sleep hygiene, add someexercise.
You probably won't need me thatmuch.
SPEAKER_01 (06:16):
Well, you know, it's I've had lots and lots of cops
sent to me over the last 40, 50years for fitness for duty
evaluations.
They they're a little overlyexuberant on an arrest, or maybe
we have a little kind ofdomestic issue at home that had
a physical component to it.
(06:37):
And they want to know I had themassess for anger management
deficiencies.
And I'll say, Chief, your copdoesn't have an anger issue.
He has an undiagnosed sleepdisorder.
And we need to start addressingthat.
You know, you you can't justhave the cops say, I go to sleep
when I get tired.
(06:57):
Because you won't get tired.
You have learned to overrideyour body's thermostat of
fatigue.
You you the you don't have ametric to realize you're tired.
And I I always think of my ownlife.
On September 11th, 2001, I waswith the Boca Raton, Florida
Police Department.
(07:17):
We were talking with their SWATteam, and everybody's pager went
off.
And everybody had to deploy inthe police department deployed
their officers, and my pagerwent off, and I was being called
by the Department of Justice toask if I could get to New York.
I said, Okay, I'll hop a plane.
(07:38):
They said there's no planes, allplanes are being grounded.
Do you have a rental car?
I said, Yes, I do.
Just head up here.
They told me where we we weregoing to be meeting at which
hotel, right on the New Jerseyside of the tunnels.
So I started from Boca Ratone,Florida.
I got in the car, I starteddriving towards New New York on
9-11.
(08:00):
I made it all the way to NewYork, which is virtually a very
abnormal act to be able to doit.
That must be a thousand miles, Idon't know how far it is.
Yeah, it's a good ride.
And that was because I was a lotyounger then, but it was also
because my police career was inmy rear view mirror very
recently.
And the the capacity to stayawake for that length of time is
(08:25):
evidence of a sleep disorder.
It's not a strength, it's aliability.
When I'm teaching a class andthere's some guy in the back of
the room and he falls asleep,and somebody says, That you
ought to address that guysleeping in the back of the
room.
I say, he's doing exactly whathis body demands that he does.
He worked midnight.
(08:45):
The poor guy ought to be asleepright now.
We should be teaching this classat midnight to accommodate his
biological clock.
And we ignore that.
But sleep sleep is terriblyimportant.
But overall wellness, getting inthe gym.
I remember I remember they usedto have signs in the gyms all
over the uh Marine Corps bases.
(09:07):
It would say, the more you sweatin peace, the less you bleed in
war.
And and that made good sense.
It made really, really goodsense.
And I look at cops today.
We graduated from the policeacademy, or not just today, we
always have.
They're lean, they're mean,they're knocking out 50
push-ups, they can run a 10K.
(09:28):
Then you come back 18 yearslater, and five push-ups would
put them in the cardiac careunit.
Right.
And we we don't see that as abig glaring flag being waved in
front of us.
SPEAKER_02 (09:40):
Well, and I don't know why we don't see that as a
problem.
Well, we have our preconceivednotions.
It's it's all the donuts.
No, but it's not the adrenaline,it's the donuts.
Sure.
Okay, so let me listen.
Let me be again a I'm gonna tossa grenade here as I call it.
Well, they signed up for thisafter all, so it's on them,
(10:00):
right?
SPEAKER_01 (10:01):
Yeah, they signed up assuming they would have
leadership, not bosses.
They would have people who aregonna pave the way for them and
mentor them, lead them.
And again, with leadership, youhave a vision to run your
agency, and you have to put thatvision through to the
implementers, the cops, the rankand file.
(10:22):
Well, if if you're not takingcare of them, they're not gonna
take care of you.
And it's I don't know how manytimes I've been to a police
department over the years thatthere's a vote of no confidence
going on on the chief or thesheriff or whoever the head of
the agency is.
And all that vote of noconfidence is is just a
measurement of the anger andlack of mental health within the
(10:44):
rank and file.
It's and sometimes there's jerksthat are chiefs that need to be
removed, but even the bestchief, if they have they're not
taking care of mental health oftheir personnel, they're they're
gonna pay the price for it.
But uh well, I I look, I guess Ihave this vision.
Young man, young woman signs up,becomes a cop.
(11:06):
And when I speak at the policeacademies for recruits, and I've
been doing this for so many,many years, I I I walk away with
a worry.
It's like, I hope this young manor this young woman who's
standing in front of me at 23,24, I hope they're still as
intact at 33, 34, 43, 44, 53,54.
(11:29):
And I know a great number ofthem will not be.
Right.
And we really want them to havea rich, full life, serve the
community for their 25, 30years, whatever it is, but then
pull the pin, retire, andcollect that pension that
they've earned, and then do thethings that they want to do with
their life, the dreams that theyhave, whatever those are.
(11:51):
You know, what whatever thoseare.
If it's riding your Harley upthe Pacific Coast Highway, if
it's drinking a beer on thebeach in in Florida, if it's fly
fishing in Montana, I I don'tcare.
I want you to do those things.
And so many older cops can't dothose things because they're
physically disabled because ofthe price they paid, because of
the job, because of lack ofmobility, lack of dynamic
(12:13):
strength, metabolic illness,heart disease.
And we can prevent that.
SPEAKER_02 (12:18):
And I had a if someone asked me that question
to ask you, so I'm going to goahead and ask you directly what
they said because thank you forthe for the direct question.
But why is retirementemotionally also harder for
officers in general?
SPEAKER_01 (12:33):
Well, police work is a pretty heavy investment, a
pretty heavy investmentprofession.
You give your heart and soul toit, but you give your time to
it.
And it's very easy over thecourse of a law enforcement
career to become lawenforcement-centric.
Your friends are cops, yoursocial interactions are cops,
(12:54):
and you haven't built in anyresiliency in the rest of your
life.
It's painful for me to watchthat.
A lot of cops retire, and if youyou talk with them about their
social contacts, they could tellyou the name of every cop in
town, they could tell you thename of the prosecutors, the
defense attorneys, and even halfthe gangsters in town.
(13:16):
But if you ask them aboutsomething that's totally
unrelated, they draw up blanks.
You know, my wife and I wouldhave barbecues out here in
Arizona, and we had our socialfriends would come.
Most of my friends were lawenforcement-related people, and
would have a massive number ofpeople, and a lot of them had
(13:38):
nothing to do with lawenforcement.
And my non-cop friends wouldcome up to me and say, Hey,
Kevin, do your cop friends talkabout anything but work, but
their job?
Do they talk about anything buttheir job?
I said, No, no, they pretty muchtalk about the job.
Well, I don't talk about my job.
(13:59):
Well, that's because your jobsucks.
You know, no, nobody cares howmuch lumber they sold at
Lumberman's last month.
You watch television shows aboutthem.
They're not watching televisionshows about you.
And so, since it's a totalinvolvement, foot on the
accelerator type of life as acop, then all of a sudden it's
gone.
It's a void.
There's this huge hole.
(14:20):
The first six months afterretirement, it's it they're
almost like a surreal time forfor folks.
And it then it depends on whatwhat have you how have you
prepared yourself?
If you go to the gym every daywhile you're a cop, you'll still
go to the gym every day whenyou're retired.
If you're playing golf threedays a week as a cop, you'll
(14:43):
play golf three days a week intoretirement.
But so many cops they use theirsense of time is into they tell
you what they used to do forabout the first 10 or 15 years
of their career.
They used to go to the gym, theyused to go hiking, they used to
go fishing.
Everything's in the past tense.
Then after about 10 or 15 years,they tell you what they're gonna
(15:06):
do.
When I retire, I'm gonna dothis.
I said, well, instead of tellingme that you're gonna go fishing
when you retire, why don't yougo fishing today?
Why why did you go to the gymtoday?
Let's not keep putting, let'sjust live in the moment.
And and and and I think that,you know, we we interviewed
cops, had an extensive kind ofinterviewed a bunch of cops when
(15:28):
they became eligible to retire.
It didn't mean they wereretiring, it meant they were
eligible to retire.
They could pull the pin anytimethey want.
And I would say you've been onthe job 25 years now.
You can pull the pin, it's KMAtime for you, or you can stay
longer if you'd like.
What's the one lesson thatyou've learned over this past
(15:50):
quarter century?
What's what's your biggestregret that you you wish that
you knew then what you know now?
And by far, the number oneregret of retirement eligible
police officers was I wish I haddone more in my personal life
with my kids.
I wish I had spent more timewith my family.
(16:12):
And they they worded itdifferently, but it was all this
sense of lost time.
The dates changed, the yearschanged, but they never learned
how to control time.
So one of the first things toprepare for retirement starts
the day you walk into the policeacademy, and that's to learn
aggressive personal timemanagement, setting specific
(16:35):
goals that you define and thenfollowing them through and doing
them.
Keeping a written calendar, andyou and your family, we work
around that calendar.
Not big stuff, little stuff, butit but you run the fabric of
your life, not the call, theradio doesn't run it.
You run your life.
SPEAKER_02 (16:59):
Just a quick break, guys.
I'm gonna talk about a newproduct that I really like.
I actually bought one of theirhoodies, it was amazing, and I
really enjoyed wearing it.
Uh, it this episode is gonna besupported by Deemed Fit.
Deemed Fit is a firstresponder-owned activewear and a
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And one thing that I genuinelylike about them is that they
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I actually gave a few people Iknow who work with first
(17:21):
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They do a lot of initiatives andcollections that are based on
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(17:45):
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Now, right back to the episode.
Well, I like what you said aboutwhen you start the academy
because I I talk about that alittle bit and people get to
give me the grumble.
(18:06):
And then after that, I say,well, two years before you
retire, you gotta startpreparing because you're not
ready.
And they still look at me andthey grumble.
And once they retire, most ofthem also go like, uh, that's
what you were talking about.
I'm like, you damn that's what Iwas talking about.
SPEAKER_01 (18:23):
Yeah, you get wisdom as you get older.
The only trouble is sometimesyou can't you're so beaten up,
you can't do anything about it.
SPEAKER_02 (18:29):
But I I think that that's the hard part, right?
It to me, it's get civilianfriends.
You don't need to always talkshop because what happens with I
don't know, I can only speakintelligently about this area.
But what other cops tend to fallin love with when they're
working because they're going toretire, they fall in love with
(18:49):
details.
So they do their shift and thenthey go to detail, or they do a
detail and they go to a shift,or vice versa, and then they do
doubles and they get theovertime.
And suddenly they're 25 yearsin, they don't know your their
kids, they don't know theirwife.
Now they have the money, butthey didn't even enjoy it once.
Now they're 55, can't walk, andthey're fucked up in the head.
SPEAKER_01 (19:08):
Yeah, they've worked all those details, so they got
to pay their federal income taxso they can support a Somali uh
daycare center.
That's that's I mean, that's athat's a heck of a deal, right?
You know, give me time, don'tgive me money.
The good one.
Massachusetts.
Your your your home state is oneof the worst in terms of the of
the detail.
(19:29):
And if you think about it, I canremember talking to a young cop
on the Cape years ago, and hecame up to me, he said, Doc, do
you know how many details Iworked last month?
I said, I have no idea.
He said it's 30.
I said, How can you possiblywork 30 details?
There's only 30 days in themonth.
(19:50):
He said, Well, I uh we have tobe off the books for eight hours
every day and show that.
He said, But on my days off,I'll work two shifts.
I'll work two details rather.
And he went on to explain indepth his details.
Now, stop and think.
That's a young man withcommitment, with dedication, and
(20:10):
with a work ethic.
Those are the type of people whobuilt our country.
Committed salt of the earthpeople, but he's killing
himself.
He's just killing himself.
And the as I look at it, just II'm thinking, why can't we why
can't we address issues moreeffectively, especially monetary
issues?
(20:31):
We don't just talk aboutphysical fitness, we have to
talk about monetary fitnessalso.
Absolutely.
I I had a captain came in myoffice one time, and I was about
four years short of retirement.
We were talking.
Good guy.
And he goes, How are you doingwith the deferred compensation
program?
I said, I don't even know whatit is.
He goes, You don't know what thedeferred comp program is?
(20:54):
I said, No.
He took me by the ear, hemarched me down to the human
resources section, he signed meup for it, and he said, Since
you're within so many years ofretirement, you can double your
contribution.
And it was the first time in mycareer I took a moment to look
at all the stuff that I thoughtwas just peripheral bullshit.
(21:15):
Okay.
I have to go to a retirementseminar about three months
before I pulled a pin.
And they bring in someone fromCounty Finance.
He's talking to all thesecynical cops, all most of them
were sergeants, but all had atleast 25 years on.
And he goes, Do you know if youhad contributed X amount of
dollars for the first five yearsof your career as a young
(21:38):
officer, you'd be having, youknow,$1.3 million invested right
now.
And this one sergeant goes, Hey,asshole, why didn't you tell us
that when we're getting hired,not when we're retiring?
Well, we can't do shit about it.
And and that some departmentsnow have excellent wellness
programs.
(21:58):
I I go to some Uh some policedepartments, I am so impressed
by the the financial guidancethey have, the experts they
bring in to work with the cops.
And it and then you go the nextday to a police department, then
it might as well be 1972.
They're as different as nightand day.
SPEAKER_02 (22:19):
And I think that that's the other part too, is
you face different departmentsthat deal with it differently,
right?
You know, and you know, there'ssome some departments I've heard
about the third comp, and theyexplain everything in great
detail, and other places theydon't.
I think that you talk about theoverall wellness of police
officers, sheriff, and any LEO,frankly.
(22:41):
I think that what we we tend toforget is we don't see the
person as a whole.
And I think that that's theother part I wanted to kind of
talk a little bit as we're gonnawrap up soon.
But uh people as a whole,because there's a police officer
that's a physical person who'salso a family person, who's a
human being, who happens to be apolice officer, who has his
mental health issue, has his ownhistory.
(23:01):
And I'm not saying thateveryone's fucked up.
That is not what I'm intendingfor.
No, not at all.
We don't see the whole person,we only see a uniform, we only
see what can you do for metoday.
SPEAKER_01 (23:13):
Well, unfortunately, that's how the cop many times
sees themselves.
They don't say I work as a cop.
Many times they say I am a cop.
And a lot of times that has todo with again to the time
element and getting off duty inthis exhausted, parasympathetic
state where they disengage, theybecome Iustas.
Compare it to firefighters whowho have compressed shifts.
(23:37):
They they'll work, well, Ishouldn't say work, they're
firefighters, but well, they'rethey're uh I was gonna make a
joke too about that.
There's no 24-hour shifts arethe minimum, and so they're
there.
So, you know, the differentKelly type of shifts, they'll
have a a day or two on and threeor four days off.
And I don't know a singlefirefighter that's not competent
(23:59):
in some other skill.
They're great firefighters, butthey also can lay tile, they can
also repair a car, they can alsodo electrical work.
The cops I know are great cops,but they supplement their income
by working details, by workingovertime.
So as the years progress throughthe career of a firefighter,
(24:21):
they become more competent in adiversity of skill sets, whereas
the cop becomes highly competentin one skill set, then they
retire and that skill set istaken away.
Whereas the firefighter who'sbeen laying tile just lays a few
more tile jobs, or they putanother roof on.
And the firefighter's notconstantly pumping adrenaline
(24:44):
like the cop is.
Even when the cop is just onpatrol and not engaged in a
call, they're in thathyper-vigilant state kicking out
cortisol.
The firefighter is back at thefirehouse lifting weights and
cooking chili or something.
They will they'll risk theirlives to save my family when the
bell goes off.
But until the bell goes off,they're in the green zone.
(25:06):
They're chilling, they'rekicking back.
So they're not constantlykicking out cortisol, and
they're not constantly puttingglucose into the fat cell around
the abdominal area.
That's why women buy calendarsof firefighters.
They don't buy calendars of copswith their shirts off.
I always like to say, what wouldyou call a calendar of cops?
(25:27):
You know, badges and bellies,you know, that's bad that weight
around the abdominal area, thatfirefighters, by and large, are
far fittered, far leaner.
SPEAKER_02 (25:37):
And you know, I, you know, we joked around about
having more time.
I would also argue, and I meanthey're gonna go too long on
this, but sometimes firefightershave too much time at the
station.
So not only do they work out,and though they start gossiping,
they start like doing all theextracurricular, but that's a
different story for a differentday, I'm sure.
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01 (25:56):
Idleness is the devil's workshop.
That's why fire, that's why fireunions are far more effective
than police unions.
They they have far betterbenefits.
There's one other thing I wantto add here, though, that I
think is critical to thepolicing issue in the United
States, and that's the absenceof sabbaticals for police
officers.
If I'm a police officer inCanada, if I'm a police officer
(26:18):
in Australia or New Zealand, Ihave the capacity to enter a
program where I will put apercentage of my salary into a
def to a defer, like an escrowaccount.
And let's say after every fourthyear of full service, I can take
a year off compensated.
We don't even think about doingthat in the United States.
(26:40):
And if I'm a if I'm teachingfreshman psychology, I'll get a
sabbatical after about six orseven years.
So I can go write a book ortravel.
But trust me, teaching freshmanpsychology is a whole lot less
stressful than working fatal caraccidents.
So I I think our going back tothe question of unions, our
(27:03):
unions need to start fightingfor some things that'll keep
their brother or sister membersalive.
Mandatory physical fitness,mandatory annual physicals, so
we can prevent diseases that arecoming around, and sabbaticals.
And at that point, then we'rethen we're really taking care of
the our rank and file personnel.
SPEAKER_02 (27:23):
And I know that, you know, around here in Providence,
Rhode Island, we've they they'rethe ones who started the whole,
let's get some cancer screeningsdone at the station versus
counting on people to go see adoctor.
And that was innovative.
Now it's been replicated andpeople love it.
That's why, like part of me alsowonders about wellness visits.
You can't do those on-site, inmy experience, because then it
(27:46):
becomes a little lesstrustworthy for some people
because why are you sitting nextto the chief's office or
whatever?
But at the same time, it's thesame.
I think that finding ways to getthe mental health wellness
visits as important as any otherphysical health issue would be.
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01 (28:02):
Absolutely.
And I'll put the burden on themental health practitioners.
We talked about culturalcompetency.
I I really think the therapist,the clinician, needs to be in
the patrol car on occasion.
They need to see the worldthrough a cop's windshield and
not sitting in their office.
And I I find that that helpsdevelop that sense of cultural
(28:26):
appreciation, not this mutualstereotyping that all cops are
this way or all therapists arethat way.
They can see that they can seethe world that this young man or
this young woman has to dealwith every day.
SPEAKER_02 (28:38):
If you don't do a ride-along, you are not going to
be culturally competent.
If you never sit around thefirehouse table, you will never
be culturally competent.
Absolutely.
And if you've never been to likeany type of roll call dispatch
or any type of in-office, also,you will not be competent.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
(28:58):
You know, more worth it thanthat.
You know, like I've done all ofthose.
Dad taught me more than any bookI ever read.
Yeah.
And that's why it's important.
SPEAKER_01 (29:08):
Terribly important to have culturally competent
clinicians.
SPEAKER_02 (29:12):
Well, we're working on it here in Massachusetts with
Behind the Badge and Beyondhere, but we'll continue working
on it uh diligently because tome, what you just said today was
so important in so many ways.
The wellness of our policeofficers start on the day they
go to their training and they dotheir their camp.
(29:32):
And then after boot camp,continuously doing those things
like walking for 20 minutes onthe treadmill, taking care of
their family, their neighbors,and other people that outside of
work so that they can balanceout their whole health system.
SPEAKER_01 (29:47):
You know, it's amazing to me to watch.
I have some very intense habhobbies that I I like.
One is fly fishing.
And I was standing in a river inOregon fly fishing once about
five years ago.
It was a long summer day, it wasending.
It was about 9 30 at night.
(30:08):
It was getting too dark to tosee my fly, but I'm hearing some
voice down the river.
I can't see I'm on there'snobody around.
Must be another angler down theway.
I walk out and I had maybe amile walk back to my pickup.
And I run into a another fella.
(30:28):
I said, Oh.
And we're we're we start talkingto him.
And I find out that that he's acop.
I said, Oh.
I said, Yeah, he's fishing.
No, I run a trauma group outhere.
I said, What?
He goes, Yeah, I have a I have atrauma group and it's um peer
support driven.
(30:49):
They're cops, firefighters,dispatchers who join a group.
This was in Bend, Oregon, andthey called it the tight blue
lines.
They can Google that and andtight blue lines, and they get
together and they live in themoment.
They learn to fly fish.
And they they get to to to putnot thinking about the calls,
(31:13):
not thinking about the trauma,not thinking about all the drama
at work.
They're just watching a dry fly,picking up a fish here and
there, and living in the moment.
And to me, that's the essence.
Peer support, living in themoment, having rich, full lives.
They're still great cops, butnow they're becoming great fire
fishermen.
Having that bifurcation.
SPEAKER_02 (31:33):
I mean, I wrote it down tight blue lines.
I mean, I there's something forveterans that's similar to what
I work with around here, whichis rifles to rods, where
basically they take out theveterans for fishing.
There's no like pressure,there's no converse.
You want to talk, you don'ttalk.
You want to talk the whole time,you talk the whole time.
SPEAKER_01 (31:49):
Yeah, the healing waters program, terribly
important.
Absolutely.
And I think that holistic typeapproach to law enforcement that
we have to start getting into.
SPEAKER_02 (31:57):
And and that's why, like for my group, sometimes
like we've done we did this inDecember.
We went to someone's house andaround the fire pit, and we
ended up spending a couple hoursjust chit-chatting there.
And someone said to me, How isthat a group?
I said, other than thefirefighters start hanging out
with the firefighters and thepolice hang out with the police.
The other immense part is thatthey all sat, laugh, left,
(32:20):
everyone had their phone number,and now they have friends
outside of their workenvironment that are there.
Absolutely.
That's so important.
Building resiliency.
Yeah, I'm not like people like,oh, what type of therapy do you
do?
My therapy doesn't matter.
It really doesn't.
It's the support they get toeach other.
That's why I run that group.
Yeah, absolutely.
Yes.
100%.
(32:41):
I'll throw in a couple ofthings.
There's a a long-running jokeabout me being a French maid,
but if you want to know more,just write to me.
But you just run with it, andit's so much more fun because,
guys, well, we talked one dayabout a police officer who
unfortunately passed away aroundhere due to a vehicle accident.
And then we talked about someonegrowing up with abuse.
(33:02):
And then the next session, weended up laughing about an
incident that occurred at awrestling event around here.
Happened to be midgets.
And we had a 40-minute laughterabout that.
And people like, How is thattherapy?
I said, they all trust eachother now.
Yeah.
They all trust me, even thoughI'm a civilian.
(33:22):
So I like that.
Well, that that having a senseof community is terribly
important.
Well, as we wrap up here, whatdo you where where can we find
you?
SPEAKER_01 (33:31):
I know I found you through your website, but well,
I I think I I guess you couldlook my name up on the internet
and read some of the thingswe've published.
You could read our book,Emotional Survival for Law
Enforcement.
I'll go ahead and send you alink if any of your listeners
would like to look at the book.
That that outlines pretty mucheverything we spoke about today.
(33:55):
We wrote that book in 2002.
It's been revised about ninetimes.
The last one was came out, thenew one came out last year.
Uh, and it looks at this wholejourney through through law
enforcement.
It it's applicable, I think, tofire, but I have to let the
firefighters determine that.
I don't I don't have theexpertise in that field.
(34:16):
Having read the book, it'shelpful.
SPEAKER_02 (34:18):
Having read the revised group, I haven't read
the one from a year ago.
You're costing me a lot of moneyhere, Kevin.
SPEAKER_01 (34:25):
Not really.
We keep the price of that bookpretty, pretty cheap.
I know, it is really good.
It was a labor of love, not amonetary game.
SPEAKER_02 (34:34):
I hope people go grab it, and I definitely will
be grabbing the new.
Like, send me the link, I'll putit in a show notes.
And truly, the people who havelistened to this podcast for
almost five years know I don'tlie.
I've read that book at leasttwice, if not three times.
One of them I might havecheated, not read the whole
thing.
It is highly recommended forpolice officers.
Fire can get something out ofit, but it really like any LEO
(34:58):
type of guy, I think goes a lotbetter for them.
SPEAKER_01 (35:01):
If there's any big words in there that the
firefighter doesn't understand,they could just ask the local
cop and he'll explain what theword means.
It I'll tell you a funny storyabout that book.
In the wintertime, I'm beingdriven out to Camp McCoy,
Wisconsin, where they train thehighway patrol officers, state
patrol officers, middle of thenight at two in the morning.
(35:22):
I have a car driving me outthere, and we run into a deer,
smashes the entire car.
The driver's injured, notseverely, broke his arm, and I'm
in the back seat, and theairbags deploy.
So hit 911, troopers show up,they have to euthanize the deer,
to get an ambulance to chart offthe uh the driver.
(35:44):
And the trooper says he's gonnawait with me there at the side
of the highway because of thelate hour and the remoteness of
the location.
And he asked me, Why am I goingto Camp McCoy?
I said, I'm gonna teach a classfor your outfit, the state
patrol.
He said, What are you gonnateach?
I said, I'm gonna teach a classcalled emotional survival.
(36:04):
And he goes, Oh, like an assholeGilmartin.
And so I said, I'm Gilmartin.
So he goes, Hang on a second.
So he runs back to his patrolcar and he goes back with a
battered copy of the book withlittle stickets and post-its on
all these pages.
(36:24):
He said, I had a question foryou on page 182.
I was gonna send you an emailabout it.
I said, you know, I don't knowwhat's on page 182, but the next
time you want to talk to me,just send the email.
Don't send the deer, okay?
It just I'll always rememberthat.
Yeah, don't send the deer.
And the guy produces that book.
(36:45):
So we're we're very happy thatwith the the footprint the book
has found and the impact it inin people's lives.
So that's that's what it waswritten for.
So I hope your readers do take alook or borrow one, steal one,
get one somewhere.
Just read it and discuss theinformation with your with your
loved ones.
SPEAKER_02 (37:02):
If you're my client, I have like two versions here
already.
And if you're not one of myclients, go buy it on.
We're gonna get a link for youto go get it so that Kevin will
send that.
And from the bottom of my heart,you know, I I really enjoyed our
conversation.
I hope we stay in touch.
This is an amazing conversation.
I hope people listen to this, goget your book.
And I I thank you for your time.
(37:23):
Thank you, Steve.
SPEAKER_01 (37:24):
Take care, keep up the good work.
SPEAKER_00 (37:27):
Please like, subscribe, and follow this
podcast on your favoriteplatform.
A glowing review is alwayshelpful.
And as a reminder, this podcastis for informational,
educational, and entertainmentpurposes only.
If you're struggling with amental health or substance abuse
issue, please reach out to aprofessional counselor for
consultation.
If you are in a mental healthcrisis, call 988 for assistance.
(37:51):
This number is available in theUnited States and Canada.
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