February 4, 2026 • 27 mins
Ever been told to “suck it up” after a call that split your world in two? We challenge that script with a grounded, respectful look at how first responders can access care that actually helps. Steve sits down with licensed clinician and podcaster Susan Roggendorf for a candid, unfiltered conversation about culture, stigma, and practical support for police, fire, EMS, dispatch, ER, ICU, NICU, and corrections.
We unpack why the tired question “What’s the worst thing you’ve seen?” is not only unhelpful but harmful—and what clinicians should ask instead. Susan shares her background serving LGBTQ clients and first responders, detailing how role-specific stressors shape symptoms: from dispatchers carrying incomplete stories and auditory flashbacks, to EMS haunted by pediatric calls, to ER staff absorbing wave after wave of crisis without pause. Together, we outline a trauma-informed approach that centers consent, pacing, and control, building skills that fit real shifts: brief grounding, tactical breathing, movement that discharges stress, and cognitive resets you can use between calls.
This episode also draws a clear map of the first responder circle without watering it down. We talk moral injury, hypervigilance, sleep disruption, and why peer support must be more than a checkbox. You’ll hear podcasting war stories, yes, but also a deeper point: humility and repair are part of resilience, whether in a studio or on a scene. If you’ve ever sat through a therapy session that felt like a TV script, this is your reset. Expect real language, straight answers, and tools you can put to work immediately.
To reach Susan, please go to https://psychhub.com/us/provider/susan-roggendorf/1316326036
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Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_00 (00:01):
Welcome to Resilience Development in Action
with Steve B.
Holmes.
This is the podcast dedicated tofirst responder mental health,
helping police, fire, EMS,dispatchers, and paramedics
create better growthenvironments for themselves and
their team.
Let's get started.ai.
SPEAKER_01 (00:37):
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(00:58):
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(01:41):
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And I highly appreciate that.
Well, hi everyone, and welcometo episode 242.
If you haven't listened toepisode 241, it was with Leah
Moroni.
We had a great time talkingabout different things about
(02:04):
mental health and firstresponders, which brings us to
this episode with a friend of Iconsider a friend of the
podcast.
I built I was on her podcast acouple months ago.
She's gonna she's now like gonnabe on mine, and I wish she was
on every year.
So we'll probably have to makeit a something that we do
regularly.
Not only because I feel like wehave good conversation, it is
(02:25):
truly someone I like, I want togo to Iowa, which who wants to
go to Iowa on purpose to go meether.
So Susan Rogendorf, welcome toResilience Development in
Action.
SPEAKER_03 (02:36):
Steve, I you know, I I'm a I'm born bred Iowa, and I
agree with you.
It's like I'm not sure why you'dwant to come here.
I mean, Des Moines is fantastic.
There's a lot of fun things todo there.
Iowa City, they have a lot offun stuff.
We have the University of IowaHospitals up there too, do great
work.
But beyond that, you know, comeout and enjoy the soybeans and
cornfields.
I I don't know what to tell you.
(02:57):
We got the Mississippi River,that's our claim to fame.
You know, there are a lot ofpeople like to visit that
because of literature andhistory, but I ain't got nothing
for you on that one.
SPEAKER_01 (03:07):
Well, maybe I'll try to manage it during the football
season and go there for acollege football game of some
sort.
SPEAKER_03 (03:13):
I would highly recommend that.
That is another big draw here.
So, and we do have a hockey,well, I wouldn't say huge hockey
fandom in that, but you know,we've got we've got our local
one here in the Quad Cities, andso we have some winter sports
and stuff too, but football iswhere it's at.
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01 (03:31):
You've got look, I'm gonna say something that's weird
for people who don't know howmuch I love hockey, but I do
know you have the Iowa Wild,which is an AHL team, and it's
Minnesota Wilds farm team.
And I actually know one playeron that team, so so that's why I
also know that there is an AHLteam in Iowa.
SPEAKER_03 (03:50):
See, the connections to Iowa, they they keep crapping
up for you when you least expectit.
SPEAKER_01 (03:55):
So that's why I gotta go.
I mean, if anything, I'll getsome good football, but more
importantly, I get to meet you.
And you know, it was funnybecause I was talking to you
previously in the interview whenI was on your podcast a couple
of weeks ago.
I had a client say, like, youguys have great chemistry.
How many times have you met?
I'm like, including today, zero.
(04:15):
We've met on Zoom many times,and you know, I they they just
mentioned how much chemistry wehad together.
So really appreciate that.
And hopefully we can give alittle bit of that indication
here too.
SPEAKER_03 (04:27):
I don't think we ever have a problem with that,
Steve, because I think, youknow, and and you know, people
are like, why do you call him abrother from another?
It's like I don't know what totell you.
The chemistry is there, and it'sbeen there since day one because
it was kind of like a cold callsituation where I can't
remember.
I I don't know if you reachedout to me or I reached out to
you to be on one another'spodcasts.
(04:47):
And after that initial podcast,man, we were up and running, and
it was such a great time.
SPEAKER_01 (04:53):
I think it I think if I remember correctly, is I
saw you as the the swearytherapist.
I can't remember on on like oneof those.
Probably Instagram.
Yeah, something like that.
And then I saw Fuck the Rulespodcast.
I'm like, hey, you'd like this,and you're like, yeah, of
course, I fucking host it.
Um I think that's how we met, ifI remember correctly.
SPEAKER_03 (05:17):
I think you're correct.
Yeah, that kind of jogs mymenopause brain here up a little
bit.
I think you're correct on thatone.
SPEAKER_01 (05:22):
So I I'm I've I have no qualms about making like
silliness of myself, as long asit's like done in like I wish I
did it on purpose, it would befunnier, but no, I really did it
because I was caring.
SPEAKER_03 (05:34):
But you know what?
You just find a little way forwhen you can use it next time.
It's okay, it's all learningexperience.
It's sort of like a dressrehearsal, so that you'll be
even better when you get to doit on purpose.
SPEAKER_01 (05:45):
I mean, like to break a wall here, but uh,
you're a podcast host too.
I was talking to a to one of mygo uh guests a long time ago,
and I kept on saying, So yourbook, Johnny Doe, your book
Johnny Doe.
She's like, actually, that's aclasp.
And I'm like, uh crap.
SPEAKER_03 (06:04):
Well, fuck.
All right.
SPEAKER_01 (06:06):
Exactly.
That's like, what are you gonnafucking do, right?
So I'm like, hey, editor, fixthis.
And my editor kind of fixed it,and that was cool.
But like, hey, I made a mistake,I made a fool of myself, and
I'll ultimately I joked aroundwith the guest.
I'm like, I'm more than happy toleave it on there, but it makes
me look like a jerk, not you.
She's like, oh no, I'll clean itup.
SPEAKER_03 (06:26):
Myself, I'm the I I am a one-person show here.
I'm producer, I'm editor, youknow, I'm I'm the host.
I figure, well, if I'm gonnamake a mistake this large,
either we'll we'll go ahead andgive it a little space so that I
can cut it out later and I'llrecorrect myself, or I'll just
leave it in if it's a reallygood conversation of wow, that
was a fucking bone-headed move.
(06:47):
I stand corrected.
Let's move forward.
I think it just depends on whereyou're at in your in your
production at that point in theepisode.
SPEAKER_01 (06:54):
Well, I remember you one of your episodes, because I
do listen to Susan's Fuck theRules podcast.
It's not like just some line.
You guys know me.
You come on the you listen tothis because you know I'm
truthful.
And I remember when you're like,this was an excellent interview,
but we lost 40 minutes of theinterview.
Because there was a powerfailure or something, I can't
(07:15):
remember exactly.
SPEAKER_03 (07:16):
That was with Bhavna Rathouthman Ratatha, and she and
I are good friends because shecame onto my podcast and we
connected really well.
And oh my god, it wasphenomenal.
Fucking power went out.
It was, and I can't remember, Ithink it was because there were
glitches in the internetconnection because they were
(07:36):
digging up pieces of it aroundmy place where I record at.
So talking talking with Bobna, Isaid, What do you want to do
(07:57):
with this?
She says, Let's just rollforward.
I said, Okay, but I was so angrylosing those 40 minutes because
they were stellar.
SPEAKER_01 (08:03):
I'm sure no one's listening for us to talk about
all these issues that we havewith our podcast.
SPEAKER_03 (08:08):
But they should, because they may want to go into
podcasting themselves, and thenthey'll have to understand that
you know, this is the crap yougotta deal with.
So, you know, free advice.
SPEAKER_01 (08:16):
Yeah, and I mean I I love doing podcasting.
My worst podcast is I did aninterview face to face with two
other partners, and we all hadour own mics, except mine wasn't
recording, it was muted.
So I had to redo the interviewbased upon what I remembered I
said listening to the other two.
(08:38):
And if you if you're listeningand you want to figure out which
one it is, please let me know ifyou figured it out.
I already gave you a couple oftricks, but it was true.
You may win a prize, but it itwas like, okay, did I say and
then I I try to fit it in, andthen it like my editor was
brilliant.
She was able to like cut it andpaste it and do it the right
(08:58):
way.
But yeah, that's my worst story.
It's like everything they saidwas recorded, not me.
SPEAKER_03 (09:04):
Oh, I admire your your editor then, because that's
a lot of work to cut and spliceand make it sound tonally the
same, you get the same qualityof voice and and the background,
and just well done to youreditor.
I would I don't even know.
I mean, I listened to yourpodcast, and now I'm actually
watching them on YouTube becauseit's really interesting with
(09:27):
your new studio and theinteractions with your guests
there, but I don't I don't evenknow which one that is, Steve,
to be honest with you, becausemy ear would pick it up, I know
being an editor myself, and justbeing very picky about how I
want my my episodes to soundlike when I'm done with them.
SPEAKER_01 (09:44):
So well, I know that no one caught it except me.
I and when I told one personwhich one it was, I'll tell you
off air because I don't wantpeople, you you guess, send me
messages, guess.
All right.
I'll send you, I'll tell youwhich one it was, but when you
listen to it knowing that,you're like, oh, I can tell the
cuts and I can tell the spliceand I can tell all that.
(10:06):
But if you don't know, it'spretty hard to spot.
SPEAKER_03 (10:09):
I honestly that's because you probably have a very
talented editor.
So well done to your editor.
SPEAKER_01 (10:15):
She was amazing, and I appreciate her.
But like right now, we've beenshooting the shit, and I want
people to know how much Iappreciate you.
But maybe people who haven'tlistened to the other episodes
you've been on, including my100th anniversary episode a few
years ago.
I'm going on five years, Susan,in May.
SPEAKER_03 (10:33):
I know, isn't that wonderful?
I think that's fantastic.
SPEAKER_01 (10:36):
I'm just shocked I got the five years.
I mean, it's just beingtruthful.
SPEAKER_03 (10:43):
I'm in season five, so I'm with you on that one.
Anybody wants to listen.
SPEAKER_01 (10:48):
I cheated.
I'm on I'm on season 13, but Idid the what I call the dancing
with the stars season.
So the spring was one season,summer was a season, fall was a
season.
I did that for the first fewones, and now I'm up to once I
hit 10, it looks legitimate whenyou have a double-digit season.
And that's how I cheated toepic.
Like right now, we're on season13.
SPEAKER_03 (11:09):
How can you say that's cheating?
That's not cheating.
You did the work.
You did the work that counts.
SPEAKER_01 (11:14):
Well, I didn't put it out yet in my newsletter, but
I calculated if you want tolisten to my podcast end to end
for every interview, that'soriginal, because I do have
repeats, but just the originalones, it would take you six days
and 12 hours to listen to all itwould all be original content.
SPEAKER_03 (11:33):
That's that is a lot of information coming down the
pipeline for you.
But I, you know, honestly,Steve, I that's why I like your
episodes, is that every time Ilisten, I do learn something
different.
Or I learn how a differentperspective will adjust my
perspective of seeing an issueor how someone else responds or
how they're living their livedexperience in a way that I
(11:55):
wouldn't have ever known.
So that's a lot of informationto to download at one time while
they like sit through it for sixdays.
But I mean, you know, actually,if your listeners have not gone
back or your watchers have notgone back to see your other
podcast, I really recommend thembecause there is a lot of really
great information, not justabout mental health, but just on
how is it it's hard to be human.
(12:17):
And how are these people doingit?
SPEAKER_01 (12:19):
I I think that the the the reason why I listen to
your podcast, why I think mypodcast is pretty good, and yes,
I'm tooting my own horn here, isthat they're not formal
interviews.
I don't have questions, like Ido have like a guide of
questions, but I don't like Idon't go, Susan, it sounds like
we've been working in the samefield.
(12:40):
Like I again, if you go toYouTube, I'm pretending to hold
something while I'm reading it.
The point is that it sounds sorobotic, and you catch those
podcasts, they never last longfor the record, but you catch
those, and I'd rather have aconversation.
That's why I love having you on,because it always ends up being
a great conversation, and we'relike, oh, we still need two
hours, but we need to wrap uphere.
SPEAKER_03 (13:02):
Exactly.
So, like when you were on mylast episode, and it was just I
hated to do it, but I hadanother interview lined up that
we had to cut short at like anhour, hour 15, I think, and we
could have gone on for severalhours.
SPEAKER_01 (13:17):
So and as as right as we do right now, because
we've just like we've just thisis the intro still, and we're
like what 12 minutes in.
But I think that might behelpful for people to know maybe
who you are if they haven'tcaught you on the other three
episodes.
SPEAKER_03 (13:33):
My name is Susan Rogender.
I am a licensed mental healthprofessional.
I am licensed in Iowa andIllinois.
I'm also a licensed clinicalmental health counselor.
I'm also a certified clinicaltrauma professional.
I've gone through extra trainingand made sure that I have the
(13:53):
extra hours put into learningand updating my information as a
trauma professional.
I work specifically with personsin the LGBTQ community.
I'm a part of that.
I think it's important.
A lot of trauma in that.
And I also spend a lot of timewith my folks in first
responders, EMS, military, folksthat live and work.
(14:18):
I shouldn't say live, but itfeels like you live there
because of the shift hours thatyou have to do.
The hospitals, ERs, clinics thatare like the urgent cares, even
regular clinics.
And I'm talking nurses, NPs,CNAs, things that happen that
you come into contact withpeople not in their best on
their best day.
And it's difficult.
(14:38):
And then there is the traumathat you live through with
people that you're trying totake care of.
So those are the kind of peoplethat I work with in my private
practice.
I also have a second gig as acounselor through a telehealth
company than I do part-timebecause I don't have enough to
do, but it's another way toreach people.
Those folks tend to be moreabout mainstream civilians.
(15:01):
I don't have anyone in mycommunities that fit the people
that I see through thatsecondary gig I do.
And then, of course, I have mypodcast, Fuck the Rules Podcast.
Season five just started.
Mine is more meandering.
It always has a component ofmental health to it, but I talk
about fuck all everything.
(15:22):
I mean, if you have a questionabout beer and bicycles and
cheese, you can listen to thepodcast with one of my girls, my
one of my daughters, where wetalk about that and women's
history and women's fashion andhow that all rolls in together.
And then, you know, I talk tosomeone that is a person that I
truly admire in the work thathe's done, and that's Gary.
(15:43):
And he did an episode with metalking about being there as a
peer support for other people inmilitary and police work for
mental health stability andmental health support.
So I run the gamut of everythingI talk to, to people and as well
as to the topics I talk to aswell.
So that's that's kind of how itis.
(16:04):
And then on top of that, too, Ido some mentoring for folks that
are in mental health that aretherapists themselves.
They're looking for someone tokind of get guidance and support
in the work that they do.
They may be fairly new offsupervision and they still kind
of want that helping hand.
SPEAKER_02 (16:20):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (16:21):
I'm closing out the supervisory type of things that
I used to do with persons whowere still needing supervision
to do the work they're doingbefore they get permanent
licensures.
So I'm phasing that portion outof it.
I'm gonna stick with thementoring though for a little
bit longer.
So that's kind of who I am.
SPEAKER_01 (16:37):
Yeah, that's a very like small nut to crack, right?
A lot of stuff that you do.
And uh, if you listen to Susan'sepisode, you'll know which one
is the favorite child and whichone is the first child, and so
on and so forth.
So a little spoiler alert hereif you want to go and get it and
go check it out.
SPEAKER_03 (16:54):
Number one child tends to be my co-host, yes.
SPEAKER_01 (16:57):
Well, I just want to make sure people know who's the
number one child.
SPEAKER_03 (17:01):
Oh, she'll let you know.
SPEAKER_01 (17:04):
You've never made me do the interview with her, so
hey, come on.
SPEAKER_03 (17:08):
Well, I guess that's gonna have to be another episode
between you and my co-host,number one child and myself, and
that'll be a good I will have todo that.
SPEAKER_01 (17:17):
But you know, you you talked about all the
connections you have, obviously,with you know, the LGBTQ
community being part of thatcommunity really helps, you
know, and you talked about beingwith working with you know the
civilians.
I think that that's alsosomething that I enjoy.
I tell people all the time thatI do work with civilians.
Why?
Because if I only work withfirst responders, I'd absolutely
(17:39):
go insane and I'd be the one inthe having to be at the rubber
room and what do you call that?
The grippy stock vacation issomething the grippy stock
vacation.
So that's why I don't just dothat and I like the civilians.
But uh, you know, I'm moreinterested in because of the
theme of the the the podcast ingeneral is the first responder
(17:59):
world.
What's your association withthose that that particular crowd
in general?
I know we we both work crisis,but I'm sure there's more to it.
SPEAKER_03 (18:08):
Well, beyond I mean before that, you know, I have
family that have been in themedical field and also military.
And also now police work.
And for a long, long time, thework that you were doing in
those fields, you weren'texpected to respond to it as a
(18:31):
human being would.
You just suck it up and move on.
That's that you signed up forit, you know what you're getting
yourself into, move on.
Nobody gets a pity party.
And some people may find thatoffensive, what I just said, and
it should feel offensive, butthat was the way it was done.
That's what I remember in the70s.
The fact that I also saw thatcontinuing forward with the work
(18:55):
that I did in ER.
And my folks who are in militaryalso come into the hospital
work, either as paramedics,EMTs, police, even nurses.
So the military never reallyleaves.
So it's almost a double dose ofyou don't ask for help.
You just you just get throughit, bear with it, and move on to
(19:16):
the next thing.
All of that, I mean, when I whenI graduated, I thought, man, I I
want to go out there, I want tohelp everybody.
Okay, now, which is a fuckingstupid thing.
Because I when I graduated, itwas in my late 40s after I got
done with masters, and I got mytemporary license to go out and
go forth and heal.
(19:37):
I should have known better.
But I don't know.
I I I guess for me it was inworking with people that weren't
in the specific cohorts that Iconcentrate on now.
I could I could work with them,but I didn't feel challenged by
(19:58):
it.
I didn't feel as though whatthey were bringing, I could be
absolutely the best for them.
When I started seeing folks thatare in my queer community, and I
don't mean to make anyone feelupset or sighted by saying the
the words queer community, butthat's how I identify, and
(20:22):
that's how I call it.
You can call anything you want,but that's what I'm meaning is
the LGTQ plus community.
Those were folks that I knew.
I I understood what was going onfor all of us.
I understood the fight.
I came out late in my life asqueer and cisgendered female.
So I understood a lot of whatpeople were struggling with.
(20:43):
And so I started talking tofolks that were coming to my
office for sessions about that,and I felt challenged in a way
that felt I was stretching mymuscles.
I was utilizing the skills I hadlearned in my experiences.
When I started seeing folks fromEMS, whatever that, whatever
that career is, everything fromofficers to correction officers
(21:03):
and dispatch to hospital workersand everything else, I really
felt these are my people.
I want to make sure theyunderstand that there are folks
like myself that are out here.
There's not many of us, Steve.
You and I are pretty rarecreatures that we have the
backgrounds that we do to becometherapists specific for these
groups.
(21:24):
They don't have to be educatedin the sense that I won't say
that they don't have to beeducated, the therapists don't
have to be educated by thembecause that's that's the thing
that they have to fight againsta lot of the time is that they
come in and the person may nothave the experience that you and
I do, and they'll they'll notknow what police codes are or
(21:45):
getting a code off dispatch, orwhat does it mean to be a
dispatch worker, or what is itthat a police officer has to do
when they show up on scene for adomestic and it turns into gun
violence.
I mean, these are things thatyou and I have seen from the
side.
Side views of rolling up onscene that they've dealt with.
SPEAKER_01 (22:03):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (22:04):
Or the aftermath of where we're having to work with
people to help them through thetrauma that's going on and try
to de-escalate people.
And that can make a person feelvery hesitant at the very least,
or very resistant at the most,that I'm not going to go see a
therapist who doesn't fuckingget it.
Or the worst is I've inunfortunately I've heard from
(22:24):
various sources.
So tell me your worst story.
SPEAKER_01 (22:28):
That was exactly where I was going because I knew
you were going to say that.
SPEAKER_03 (22:32):
What the fuck are you doing?
I mean, this is abouttrauma-informed care.
And I and that's for everybody,not just for my folks who are in
the emergent services and firstresponder work.
Trauma-informed care, the firstthing you do is you acknowledge
that they have some livedexperiences that are incredibly
(22:52):
difficult and they're strugglingwith some of it.
What is it you would like toexplore?
You allow them control becausethey didn't have control in the
sense of whatever it was thataffected them.
You don't ask them to relive thetrauma for you like a like a
dancing fucking pony.
You know, they're not there foryour entertainment, they're
(23:13):
there to get help.
And I I could be on that soapboxall damn day.
I just it really fucking bothersme that and people do it all the
time.
It doesn't matter what theirbackground is.
Oh, what's your worst story?
What's the worst thing you saw?
Blah blah blah.
It's like, you really want totalk about this?
You want to talk about a codepink?
SPEAKER_01 (23:33):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (23:33):
I don't think you do.
SPEAKER_01 (23:35):
And I think that you you you make another excellent
point, is that when people askyou about your worst story,
which therapists do thatconstantly, by the way.
This is not new news to me.
I've I've encouraged someofficers.
I'm like, look, you don't haveto see me, you want to go see a
regular offer why see a regulartherapist, fair by me, it's
(23:55):
fine.
I said, but if they do ask youabout your worst day, ask them
why they became therapists andwhat trauma caused that.
And if they say, Why would youask me that question?
I said, Well, why would you askme that question?
SPEAKER_03 (24:06):
Exactly.
Fucking to the point, exactly.
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (24:11):
It's not, it's the dumbest thing in the world.
I mean, it it's also why I havea lot of have a couple of police
officer friends and even myclients who say, I don't want to
go to a civilian barbecuebecause that's always the first
thing.
Hey, did you ever see a deadbody?
Oh yeah, by the way, I want ahot dog.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (24:30):
You know, because it's it's considered
entertainment.
And I I don't know, Steve.
I mean, part of this, and if ifanybody's listening to my
podcast, they know that I have areal boner for media.
It can be really, really great,but a lot of times it's shit.
Because people get thisinformation and they see it as
entertainment.
You have these shows, you havethese movies, and it glamorizes
(24:54):
a lot of the significantsituations that our emergent
folks go to or they have to dealwith, especially behind the
scenes, like with dispatch.
Which, by the way, I'm alwaysgonna bring this up.
Dispatch is like the redheadedstepchild.
Nobody seems to want to talkabout how significant their
(25:15):
roles are in helping otherpeople do their job in emergent
situations, right?
And they don't get to completethe calls.
They don't, they don't get thebenefit of having that closed
loop of the enactment of gettingservices to an on a sudden
crisis that gets dropped in aleft by phone call.
So I want to make sure peopleunderstand that they should also
(25:37):
be thinking about dispatch whenI talk about emergent services.
SPEAKER_01 (25:40):
And if anybody wants to have a good interview, go
back about 10 episodes with LisaTrousis, who is a dispatch,
she's not dead, she's stillalive and she's still there.
Lisa Trousis was a dispatcher atMilford in Massachusetts, and
she talks about all thosethings.
I think that we underestimatethe importance of our dispatch.
Just like sometimes I feel likewhen we talk about the ER, you
(26:04):
know, people who are also firstresponders, we then forget about
the crisis clinicians that maynot have gone through a call,
but you hear a lot of likegraphic stuff when you're in the
in the ER.
And I think we forget about themtoo.
But uh, you know, I've I'veabsolutely I've had this
conversation with a whole lot ofpeople.
I like we gotta also be mindfulthat the first responder bubble
(26:27):
doesn't become so big that it'stoo general.
Because I've heard people say,Well, what about teachers who
get attacked?
And that's the first responder.
And I'm like, I guess they are,but it's not their primary
condition, so to speak.
Uh so I've had a lot ofconversations about different
types of people, but for me,it's I keep my correction
people, the ER folks, they givea special shout out to the ICU
(26:50):
NICU people.
And then the EMS traditionalpeople dispatch fire EM, why am
I blanking?
Paramedic, EM, EMT.
EMT?
Yeah.
And police fire, trooper,sheriff, eleos in general.
Um, and I think that that'swhere we we gotta be mindful
about the the first responderworld is so small, just like I I
(27:14):
was talking about.
SPEAKER_00 (27:17):
Please like, subscribe, and follow this
podcast on your favoriteplatform.
A glowing review is alwayshelpful.
And as a reminder, this podcastis for informational,
educational, and entertainmentpurposes only.
If you're struggling with amental health or substance abuse
issue, please reach out to aprofessional counselor for
consultation.
If you are in a mental healthcrisis, find a aid for
(27:40):
assistance.
This number is available in theUnited States and Canada.
Welcome to Resilience Development in Action
with Steve B.
Holmes.
This is the podcast dedicated tofirst responder mental health,
helping police, fire, EMS,dispatchers, and paramedics
create better growthenvironments for themselves and
their team.
Let's get started.ai.
SPEAKER_01 (00:37):
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I'm gonna keep on talking aboutit because I love it.
I've had about a year and ahalf, 18 months practice with
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So for$99 a month, it saves meso much time that it's
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(01:41):
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that will save you time andmoney.
And I highly appreciate that.
Well, hi everyone, and welcometo episode 242.
If you haven't listened toepisode 241, it was with Leah
Moroni.
We had a great time talkingabout different things about
(02:04):
mental health and firstresponders, which brings us to
this episode with a friend of Iconsider a friend of the
podcast.
I built I was on her podcast acouple months ago.
She's gonna she's now like gonnabe on mine, and I wish she was
on every year.
So we'll probably have to makeit a something that we do
regularly.
Not only because I feel like wehave good conversation, it is
(02:25):
truly someone I like, I want togo to Iowa, which who wants to
go to Iowa on purpose to go meether.
So Susan Rogendorf, welcome toResilience Development in
Action.
SPEAKER_03 (02:36):
Steve, I you know, I I'm a I'm born bred Iowa, and I
agree with you.
It's like I'm not sure why you'dwant to come here.
I mean, Des Moines is fantastic.
There's a lot of fun things todo there.
Iowa City, they have a lot offun stuff.
We have the University of IowaHospitals up there too, do great
work.
But beyond that, you know, comeout and enjoy the soybeans and
cornfields.
I I don't know what to tell you.
(02:57):
We got the Mississippi River,that's our claim to fame.
You know, there are a lot ofpeople like to visit that
because of literature andhistory, but I ain't got nothing
for you on that one.
SPEAKER_01 (03:07):
Well, maybe I'll try to manage it during the football
season and go there for acollege football game of some
sort.
SPEAKER_03 (03:13):
I would highly recommend that.
That is another big draw here.
So, and we do have a hockey,well, I wouldn't say huge hockey
fandom in that, but you know,we've got we've got our local
one here in the Quad Cities, andso we have some winter sports
and stuff too, but football iswhere it's at.
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01 (03:31):
You've got look, I'm gonna say something that's weird
for people who don't know howmuch I love hockey, but I do
know you have the Iowa Wild,which is an AHL team, and it's
Minnesota Wilds farm team.
And I actually know one playeron that team, so so that's why I
also know that there is an AHLteam in Iowa.
SPEAKER_03 (03:50):
See, the connections to Iowa, they they keep crapping
up for you when you least expectit.
SPEAKER_01 (03:55):
So that's why I gotta go.
I mean, if anything, I'll getsome good football, but more
importantly, I get to meet you.
And you know, it was funnybecause I was talking to you
previously in the interview whenI was on your podcast a couple
of weeks ago.
I had a client say, like, youguys have great chemistry.
How many times have you met?
I'm like, including today, zero.
(04:15):
We've met on Zoom many times,and you know, I they they just
mentioned how much chemistry wehad together.
So really appreciate that.
And hopefully we can give alittle bit of that indication
here too.
SPEAKER_03 (04:27):
I don't think we ever have a problem with that,
Steve, because I think, youknow, and and you know, people
are like, why do you call him abrother from another?
It's like I don't know what totell you.
The chemistry is there, and it'sbeen there since day one because
it was kind of like a cold callsituation where I can't
remember.
I I don't know if you reachedout to me or I reached out to
you to be on one another'spodcasts.
(04:47):
And after that initial podcast,man, we were up and running, and
it was such a great time.
SPEAKER_01 (04:53):
I think it I think if I remember correctly, is I
saw you as the the swearytherapist.
I can't remember on on like oneof those.
Probably Instagram.
Yeah, something like that.
And then I saw Fuck the Rulespodcast.
I'm like, hey, you'd like this,and you're like, yeah, of
course, I fucking host it.
Um I think that's how we met, ifI remember correctly.
SPEAKER_03 (05:17):
I think you're correct.
Yeah, that kind of jogs mymenopause brain here up a little
bit.
I think you're correct on thatone.
SPEAKER_01 (05:22):
So I I'm I've I have no qualms about making like
silliness of myself, as long asit's like done in like I wish I
did it on purpose, it would befunnier, but no, I really did it
because I was caring.
SPEAKER_03 (05:34):
But you know what?
You just find a little way forwhen you can use it next time.
It's okay, it's all learningexperience.
It's sort of like a dressrehearsal, so that you'll be
even better when you get to doit on purpose.
SPEAKER_01 (05:45):
I mean, like to break a wall here, but uh,
you're a podcast host too.
I was talking to a to one of mygo uh guests a long time ago,
and I kept on saying, So yourbook, Johnny Doe, your book
Johnny Doe.
She's like, actually, that's aclasp.
And I'm like, uh crap.
SPEAKER_03 (06:04):
Well, fuck.
All right.
SPEAKER_01 (06:06):
Exactly.
That's like, what are you gonnafucking do, right?
So I'm like, hey, editor, fixthis.
And my editor kind of fixed it,and that was cool.
But like, hey, I made a mistake,I made a fool of myself, and
I'll ultimately I joked aroundwith the guest.
I'm like, I'm more than happy toleave it on there, but it makes
me look like a jerk, not you.
She's like, oh no, I'll clean itup.
SPEAKER_03 (06:26):
Myself, I'm the I I am a one-person show here.
I'm producer, I'm editor, youknow, I'm I'm the host.
I figure, well, if I'm gonnamake a mistake this large,
either we'll we'll go ahead andgive it a little space so that I
can cut it out later and I'llrecorrect myself, or I'll just
leave it in if it's a reallygood conversation of wow, that
was a fucking bone-headed move.
(06:47):
I stand corrected.
Let's move forward.
I think it just depends on whereyou're at in your in your
production at that point in theepisode.
SPEAKER_01 (06:54):
Well, I remember you one of your episodes, because I
do listen to Susan's Fuck theRules podcast.
It's not like just some line.
You guys know me.
You come on the you listen tothis because you know I'm
truthful.
And I remember when you're like,this was an excellent interview,
but we lost 40 minutes of theinterview.
Because there was a powerfailure or something, I can't
(07:15):
remember exactly.
SPEAKER_03 (07:16):
That was with Bhavna Rathouthman Ratatha, and she and
I are good friends because shecame onto my podcast and we
connected really well.
And oh my god, it wasphenomenal.
Fucking power went out.
It was, and I can't remember, Ithink it was because there were
glitches in the internetconnection because they were
(07:36):
digging up pieces of it aroundmy place where I record at.
So talking talking with Bobna, Isaid, What do you want to do
(07:57):
with this?
She says, Let's just rollforward.
I said, Okay, but I was so angrylosing those 40 minutes because
they were stellar.
SPEAKER_01 (08:03):
I'm sure no one's listening for us to talk about
all these issues that we havewith our podcast.
SPEAKER_03 (08:08):
But they should, because they may want to go into
podcasting themselves, and thenthey'll have to understand that
you know, this is the crap yougotta deal with.
So, you know, free advice.
SPEAKER_01 (08:16):
Yeah, and I mean I I love doing podcasting.
My worst podcast is I did aninterview face to face with two
other partners, and we all hadour own mics, except mine wasn't
recording, it was muted.
So I had to redo the interviewbased upon what I remembered I
said listening to the other two.
(08:38):
And if you if you're listeningand you want to figure out which
one it is, please let me know ifyou figured it out.
I already gave you a couple oftricks, but it was true.
You may win a prize, but it itwas like, okay, did I say and
then I I try to fit it in, andthen it like my editor was
brilliant.
She was able to like cut it andpaste it and do it the right
(08:58):
way.
But yeah, that's my worst story.
It's like everything they saidwas recorded, not me.
SPEAKER_03 (09:04):
Oh, I admire your your editor then, because that's
a lot of work to cut and spliceand make it sound tonally the
same, you get the same qualityof voice and and the background,
and just well done to youreditor.
I would I don't even know.
I mean, I listened to yourpodcast, and now I'm actually
watching them on YouTube becauseit's really interesting with
(09:27):
your new studio and theinteractions with your guests
there, but I don't I don't evenknow which one that is, Steve,
to be honest with you, becausemy ear would pick it up, I know
being an editor myself, and justbeing very picky about how I
want my my episodes to soundlike when I'm done with them.
SPEAKER_01 (09:44):
So well, I know that no one caught it except me.
I and when I told one personwhich one it was, I'll tell you
off air because I don't wantpeople, you you guess, send me
messages, guess.
All right.
I'll send you, I'll tell youwhich one it was, but when you
listen to it knowing that,you're like, oh, I can tell the
cuts and I can tell the spliceand I can tell all that.
(10:06):
But if you don't know, it'spretty hard to spot.
SPEAKER_03 (10:09):
I honestly that's because you probably have a very
talented editor.
So well done to your editor.
SPEAKER_01 (10:15):
She was amazing, and I appreciate her.
But like right now, we've beenshooting the shit, and I want
people to know how much Iappreciate you.
But maybe people who haven'tlistened to the other episodes
you've been on, including my100th anniversary episode a few
years ago.
I'm going on five years, Susan,in May.
SPEAKER_03 (10:33):
I know, isn't that wonderful?
I think that's fantastic.
SPEAKER_01 (10:36):
I'm just shocked I got the five years.
I mean, it's just beingtruthful.
SPEAKER_03 (10:43):
I'm in season five, so I'm with you on that one.
Anybody wants to listen.
SPEAKER_01 (10:48):
I cheated.
I'm on I'm on season 13, but Idid the what I call the dancing
with the stars season.
So the spring was one season,summer was a season, fall was a
season.
I did that for the first fewones, and now I'm up to once I
hit 10, it looks legitimate whenyou have a double-digit season.
And that's how I cheated toepic.
Like right now, we're on season13.
SPEAKER_03 (11:09):
How can you say that's cheating?
That's not cheating.
You did the work.
You did the work that counts.
SPEAKER_01 (11:14):
Well, I didn't put it out yet in my newsletter, but
I calculated if you want tolisten to my podcast end to end
for every interview, that'soriginal, because I do have
repeats, but just the originalones, it would take you six days
and 12 hours to listen to all itwould all be original content.
SPEAKER_03 (11:33):
That's that is a lot of information coming down the
pipeline for you.
But I, you know, honestly,Steve, I that's why I like your
episodes, is that every time Ilisten, I do learn something
different.
Or I learn how a differentperspective will adjust my
perspective of seeing an issueor how someone else responds or
how they're living their livedexperience in a way that I
(11:55):
wouldn't have ever known.
So that's a lot of informationto to download at one time while
they like sit through it for sixdays.
But I mean, you know, actually,if your listeners have not gone
back or your watchers have notgone back to see your other
podcast, I really recommend thembecause there is a lot of really
great information, not justabout mental health, but just on
how is it it's hard to be human.
(12:17):
And how are these people doingit?
SPEAKER_01 (12:19):
I I think that the the the reason why I listen to
your podcast, why I think mypodcast is pretty good, and yes,
I'm tooting my own horn here, isthat they're not formal
interviews.
I don't have questions, like Ido have like a guide of
questions, but I don't like Idon't go, Susan, it sounds like
we've been working in the samefield.
(12:40):
Like I again, if you go toYouTube, I'm pretending to hold
something while I'm reading it.
The point is that it sounds sorobotic, and you catch those
podcasts, they never last longfor the record, but you catch
those, and I'd rather have aconversation.
That's why I love having you on,because it always ends up being
a great conversation, and we'relike, oh, we still need two
hours, but we need to wrap uphere.
SPEAKER_03 (13:02):
Exactly.
So, like when you were on mylast episode, and it was just I
hated to do it, but I hadanother interview lined up that
we had to cut short at like anhour, hour 15, I think, and we
could have gone on for severalhours.
SPEAKER_01 (13:17):
So and as as right as we do right now, because
we've just like we've just thisis the intro still, and we're
like what 12 minutes in.
But I think that might behelpful for people to know maybe
who you are if they haven'tcaught you on the other three
episodes.
SPEAKER_03 (13:33):
My name is Susan Rogender.
I am a licensed mental healthprofessional.
I am licensed in Iowa andIllinois.
I'm also a licensed clinicalmental health counselor.
I'm also a certified clinicaltrauma professional.
I've gone through extra trainingand made sure that I have the
(13:53):
extra hours put into learningand updating my information as a
trauma professional.
I work specifically with personsin the LGBTQ community.
I'm a part of that.
I think it's important.
A lot of trauma in that.
And I also spend a lot of timewith my folks in first
responders, EMS, military, folksthat live and work.
(14:18):
I shouldn't say live, but itfeels like you live there
because of the shift hours thatyou have to do.
The hospitals, ERs, clinics thatare like the urgent cares, even
regular clinics.
And I'm talking nurses, NPs,CNAs, things that happen that
you come into contact withpeople not in their best on
their best day.
And it's difficult.
(14:38):
And then there is the traumathat you live through with
people that you're trying totake care of.
So those are the kind of peoplethat I work with in my private
practice.
I also have a second gig as acounselor through a telehealth
company than I do part-timebecause I don't have enough to
do, but it's another way toreach people.
Those folks tend to be moreabout mainstream civilians.
(15:01):
I don't have anyone in mycommunities that fit the people
that I see through thatsecondary gig I do.
And then, of course, I have mypodcast, Fuck the Rules Podcast.
Season five just started.
Mine is more meandering.
It always has a component ofmental health to it, but I talk
about fuck all everything.
(15:22):
I mean, if you have a questionabout beer and bicycles and
cheese, you can listen to thepodcast with one of my girls, my
one of my daughters, where wetalk about that and women's
history and women's fashion andhow that all rolls in together.
And then, you know, I talk tosomeone that is a person that I
truly admire in the work thathe's done, and that's Gary.
(15:43):
And he did an episode with metalking about being there as a
peer support for other people inmilitary and police work for
mental health stability andmental health support.
So I run the gamut of everythingI talk to, to people and as well
as to the topics I talk to aswell.
So that's that's kind of how itis.
(16:04):
And then on top of that, too, Ido some mentoring for folks that
are in mental health that aretherapists themselves.
They're looking for someone tokind of get guidance and support
in the work that they do.
They may be fairly new offsupervision and they still kind
of want that helping hand.
SPEAKER_02 (16:20):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (16:21):
I'm closing out the supervisory type of things that
I used to do with persons whowere still needing supervision
to do the work they're doingbefore they get permanent
licensures.
So I'm phasing that portion outof it.
I'm gonna stick with thementoring though for a little
bit longer.
So that's kind of who I am.
SPEAKER_01 (16:37):
Yeah, that's a very like small nut to crack, right?
A lot of stuff that you do.
And uh, if you listen to Susan'sepisode, you'll know which one
is the favorite child and whichone is the first child, and so
on and so forth.
So a little spoiler alert hereif you want to go and get it and
go check it out.
SPEAKER_03 (16:54):
Number one child tends to be my co-host, yes.
SPEAKER_01 (16:57):
Well, I just want to make sure people know who's the
number one child.
SPEAKER_03 (17:01):
Oh, she'll let you know.
SPEAKER_01 (17:04):
You've never made me do the interview with her, so
hey, come on.
SPEAKER_03 (17:08):
Well, I guess that's gonna have to be another episode
between you and my co-host,number one child and myself, and
that'll be a good I will have todo that.
SPEAKER_01 (17:17):
But you know, you you talked about all the
connections you have, obviously,with you know, the LGBTQ
community being part of thatcommunity really helps, you
know, and you talked about beingwith working with you know the
civilians.
I think that that's alsosomething that I enjoy.
I tell people all the time thatI do work with civilians.
Why?
Because if I only work withfirst responders, I'd absolutely
(17:39):
go insane and I'd be the one inthe having to be at the rubber
room and what do you call that?
The grippy stock vacation issomething the grippy stock
vacation.
So that's why I don't just dothat and I like the civilians.
But uh, you know, I'm moreinterested in because of the
theme of the the the podcast ingeneral is the first responder
(17:59):
world.
What's your association withthose that that particular crowd
in general?
I know we we both work crisis,but I'm sure there's more to it.
SPEAKER_03 (18:08):
Well, beyond I mean before that, you know, I have
family that have been in themedical field and also military.
And also now police work.
And for a long, long time, thework that you were doing in
those fields, you weren'texpected to respond to it as a
(18:31):
human being would.
You just suck it up and move on.
That's that you signed up forit, you know what you're getting
yourself into, move on.
Nobody gets a pity party.
And some people may find thatoffensive, what I just said, and
it should feel offensive, butthat was the way it was done.
That's what I remember in the70s.
The fact that I also saw thatcontinuing forward with the work
(18:55):
that I did in ER.
And my folks who are in militaryalso come into the hospital
work, either as paramedics,EMTs, police, even nurses.
So the military never reallyleaves.
So it's almost a double dose ofyou don't ask for help.
You just you just get throughit, bear with it, and move on to
(19:16):
the next thing.
All of that, I mean, when I whenI graduated, I thought, man, I I
want to go out there, I want tohelp everybody.
Okay, now, which is a fuckingstupid thing.
Because I when I graduated, itwas in my late 40s after I got
done with masters, and I got mytemporary license to go out and
go forth and heal.
(19:37):
I should have known better.
But I don't know.
I I I guess for me it was inworking with people that weren't
in the specific cohorts that Iconcentrate on now.
I could I could work with them,but I didn't feel challenged by
(19:58):
it.
I didn't feel as though whatthey were bringing, I could be
absolutely the best for them.
When I started seeing folks thatare in my queer community, and I
don't mean to make anyone feelupset or sighted by saying the
the words queer community, butthat's how I identify, and
(20:22):
that's how I call it.
You can call anything you want,but that's what I'm meaning is
the LGTQ plus community.
Those were folks that I knew.
I I understood what was going onfor all of us.
I understood the fight.
I came out late in my life asqueer and cisgendered female.
So I understood a lot of whatpeople were struggling with.
(20:43):
And so I started talking tofolks that were coming to my
office for sessions about that,and I felt challenged in a way
that felt I was stretching mymuscles.
I was utilizing the skills I hadlearned in my experiences.
When I started seeing folks fromEMS, whatever that, whatever
that career is, everything fromofficers to correction officers
(21:03):
and dispatch to hospital workersand everything else, I really
felt these are my people.
I want to make sure theyunderstand that there are folks
like myself that are out here.
There's not many of us, Steve.
You and I are pretty rarecreatures that we have the
backgrounds that we do to becometherapists specific for these
groups.
(21:24):
They don't have to be educatedin the sense that I won't say
that they don't have to beeducated, the therapists don't
have to be educated by thembecause that's that's the thing
that they have to fight againsta lot of the time is that they
come in and the person may nothave the experience that you and
I do, and they'll they'll notknow what police codes are or
(21:45):
getting a code off dispatch, orwhat does it mean to be a
dispatch worker, or what is itthat a police officer has to do
when they show up on scene for adomestic and it turns into gun
violence.
I mean, these are things thatyou and I have seen from the
side.
Side views of rolling up onscene that they've dealt with.
SPEAKER_01 (22:03):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (22:04):
Or the aftermath of where we're having to work with
people to help them through thetrauma that's going on and try
to de-escalate people.
And that can make a person feelvery hesitant at the very least,
or very resistant at the most,that I'm not going to go see a
therapist who doesn't fuckingget it.
Or the worst is I've inunfortunately I've heard from
(22:24):
various sources.
So tell me your worst story.
SPEAKER_01 (22:28):
That was exactly where I was going because I knew
you were going to say that.
SPEAKER_03 (22:32):
What the fuck are you doing?
I mean, this is abouttrauma-informed care.
And I and that's for everybody,not just for my folks who are in
the emergent services and firstresponder work.
Trauma-informed care, the firstthing you do is you acknowledge
that they have some livedexperiences that are incredibly
(22:52):
difficult and they're strugglingwith some of it.
What is it you would like toexplore?
You allow them control becausethey didn't have control in the
sense of whatever it was thataffected them.
You don't ask them to relive thetrauma for you like a like a
dancing fucking pony.
You know, they're not there foryour entertainment, they're
(23:13):
there to get help.
And I I could be on that soapboxall damn day.
I just it really fucking bothersme that and people do it all the
time.
It doesn't matter what theirbackground is.
Oh, what's your worst story?
What's the worst thing you saw?
Blah blah blah.
It's like, you really want totalk about this?
You want to talk about a codepink?
SPEAKER_01 (23:33):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (23:33):
I don't think you do.
SPEAKER_01 (23:35):
And I think that you you you make another excellent
point, is that when people askyou about your worst story,
which therapists do thatconstantly, by the way.
This is not new news to me.
I've I've encouraged someofficers.
I'm like, look, you don't haveto see me, you want to go see a
regular offer why see a regulartherapist, fair by me, it's
(23:55):
fine.
I said, but if they do ask youabout your worst day, ask them
why they became therapists andwhat trauma caused that.
And if they say, Why would youask me that question?
I said, Well, why would you askme that question?
SPEAKER_03 (24:06):
Exactly.
Fucking to the point, exactly.
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (24:11):
It's not, it's the dumbest thing in the world.
I mean, it it's also why I havea lot of have a couple of police
officer friends and even myclients who say, I don't want to
go to a civilian barbecuebecause that's always the first
thing.
Hey, did you ever see a deadbody?
Oh yeah, by the way, I want ahot dog.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (24:30):
You know, because it's it's considered
entertainment.
And I I don't know, Steve.
I mean, part of this, and if ifanybody's listening to my
podcast, they know that I have areal boner for media.
It can be really, really great,but a lot of times it's shit.
Because people get thisinformation and they see it as
entertainment.
You have these shows, you havethese movies, and it glamorizes
(24:54):
a lot of the significantsituations that our emergent
folks go to or they have to dealwith, especially behind the
scenes, like with dispatch.
Which, by the way, I'm alwaysgonna bring this up.
Dispatch is like the redheadedstepchild.
Nobody seems to want to talkabout how significant their
(25:15):
roles are in helping otherpeople do their job in emergent
situations, right?
And they don't get to completethe calls.
They don't, they don't get thebenefit of having that closed
loop of the enactment of gettingservices to an on a sudden
crisis that gets dropped in aleft by phone call.
So I want to make sure peopleunderstand that they should also
(25:37):
be thinking about dispatch whenI talk about emergent services.
SPEAKER_01 (25:40):
And if anybody wants to have a good interview, go
back about 10 episodes with LisaTrousis, who is a dispatch,
she's not dead, she's stillalive and she's still there.
Lisa Trousis was a dispatcher atMilford in Massachusetts, and
she talks about all thosethings.
I think that we underestimatethe importance of our dispatch.
Just like sometimes I feel likewhen we talk about the ER, you
(26:04):
know, people who are also firstresponders, we then forget about
the crisis clinicians that maynot have gone through a call,
but you hear a lot of likegraphic stuff when you're in the
in the ER.
And I think we forget about themtoo.
But uh, you know, I've I'veabsolutely I've had this
conversation with a whole lot ofpeople.
I like we gotta also be mindfulthat the first responder bubble
(26:27):
doesn't become so big that it'stoo general.
Because I've heard people say,Well, what about teachers who
get attacked?
And that's the first responder.
And I'm like, I guess they are,but it's not their primary
condition, so to speak.
Uh so I've had a lot ofconversations about different
types of people, but for me,it's I keep my correction
people, the ER folks, they givea special shout out to the ICU
(26:50):
NICU people.
And then the EMS traditionalpeople dispatch fire EM, why am
I blanking?
Paramedic, EM, EMT.
EMT?
Yeah.
And police fire, trooper,sheriff, eleos in general.
Um, and I think that that'swhere we we gotta be mindful
about the the first responderworld is so small, just like I I
(27:14):
was talking about.
SPEAKER_00 (27:17):
Please like, subscribe, and follow this
podcast on your favoriteplatform.
A glowing review is alwayshelpful.
And as a reminder, this podcastis for informational,
educational, and entertainmentpurposes only.
If you're struggling with amental health or substance abuse
issue, please reach out to aprofessional counselor for
consultation.
If you are in a mental healthcrisis, find a aid for
(27:40):
assistance.
This number is available in theUnited States and Canada.
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